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View Full Version : Re: Getting ready for a new aby kitten in Chicago-advice on vets and preparations needed


kaeli
July 23rd 03, 02:30 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> I have put down a deposit on a new aby and she will be ready to pick
> up in late August.
> Does anyone have an aby kitten? I have had Siamese cats before.
> Should I get toys for climbing? I know aby's are pretty wild. Any
> other things I should have on hand for her?

You should always have stuff for climbing, no matter the breed. Get a
nice cat tree. Don't forget several scratching posts and pads to place
through the house so she learns early what is okay for her to scratch.
Get toys to play with her with, such as those long trailing wand things.
You can use these to encourage her to scratch her posts, too.

> Also, can anyone recommend a good cat vet on the north side of
> Chicago? My old vet was North Avenue Animal Hospital, and I found this
> practice to be very incompetent (missing diagnosable illnesses several
> time in my cat-lead to an early death)
> Any advice would be great! Thanks!
>

Unfortunately, no, I live in the burbs. Call a local shelter or rescue
group. They usually have good vets. That's how I got my new vet.

Good luck.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Yngver
July 23rd 03, 10:07 PM
(kate) wrote:

>Also, can anyone recommend a good cat vet on the north side of
>Chicago? My old vet was North Avenue Animal Hospital, and I found this
>practice to be very incompetent (missing diagnosable illnesses several
>time in my cat-lead to an early death)
>Any advice would be great! Thanks!
>
Here's two that I recomend:
Chicago Cat Clinic
5301 West Devon

Cat Hospital of Chicago
2851 West Irving Park

These are both on the northwest side so City Cat Doctor, which is downtown on
Wells, maybe closer for you.

And I also recommend you ignore the flak you will get here for adopting a
purebred cat.

Yngver
July 23rd 03, 10:07 PM
(kate) wrote:

>Also, can anyone recommend a good cat vet on the north side of
>Chicago? My old vet was North Avenue Animal Hospital, and I found this
>practice to be very incompetent (missing diagnosable illnesses several
>time in my cat-lead to an early death)
>Any advice would be great! Thanks!
>
Here's two that I recomend:
Chicago Cat Clinic
5301 West Devon

Cat Hospital of Chicago
2851 West Irving Park

These are both on the northwest side so City Cat Doctor, which is downtown on
Wells, maybe closer for you.

And I also recommend you ignore the flak you will get here for adopting a
purebred cat.

Sherry
July 23rd 03, 11:09 PM
>>Also, can anyone recommend a good cat vet on the north side of
>>Chicago? My old vet was North Avenue Animal Hospital, and I found this
>>practice to be very incompetent (missing diagnosable illnesses several
>>time in my cat-lead to an early death)
>>Any advice would be great! Thanks!
>>
>Here's two that I recomend:
>Chicago Cat Clinic
>5301 West Devon
>
>Cat Hospital of Chicago
>2851 West Irving Park
>
>These are both on the northwest side so City Cat Doctor, which is downtown on
>Wells, maybe closer for you.
>
>And I also recommend you ignore the flak you will get here for adopting a
>purebred cat.
>
Aww, gee, Yngver. That would be me you're speaking of. Honestly, I don't mean
to get so hydraulic. Kitten season will do that to you. But I'm very
equal-opportunity with the flak. My grand-cat is purebred.

Sherry

Sherry
July 23rd 03, 11:09 PM
>>Also, can anyone recommend a good cat vet on the north side of
>>Chicago? My old vet was North Avenue Animal Hospital, and I found this
>>practice to be very incompetent (missing diagnosable illnesses several
>>time in my cat-lead to an early death)
>>Any advice would be great! Thanks!
>>
>Here's two that I recomend:
>Chicago Cat Clinic
>5301 West Devon
>
>Cat Hospital of Chicago
>2851 West Irving Park
>
>These are both on the northwest side so City Cat Doctor, which is downtown on
>Wells, maybe closer for you.
>
>And I also recommend you ignore the flak you will get here for adopting a
>purebred cat.
>
Aww, gee, Yngver. That would be me you're speaking of. Honestly, I don't mean
to get so hydraulic. Kitten season will do that to you. But I'm very
equal-opportunity with the flak. My grand-cat is purebred.

Sherry

kate
July 24th 03, 04:53 AM
Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
experience with these places? Any specific doctors?
Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?
Thanks so much for your help!
BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
prospects!

kate
July 24th 03, 04:53 AM
Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
experience with these places? Any specific doctors?
Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?
Thanks so much for your help!
BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
prospects!

Karen Chuplis
July 24th 03, 05:57 AM
in article , kate at
wrote on 7/23/03 10:53 PM:

> Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
> mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
> but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
> experience with these places? Any specific doctors?
> Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
> to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?
> Thanks so much for your help!
> BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
> is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
> centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
> something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
> at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
> coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
> dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
> has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
> prospects!

Kate, probably that comes from seeing cats returned or worse, finding cats
they adopted out in the kill shelters. I think it just happens to people who
work in the field.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 24th 03, 05:57 AM
in article , kate at
wrote on 7/23/03 10:53 PM:

> Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
> mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
> but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
> experience with these places? Any specific doctors?
> Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
> to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?
> Thanks so much for your help!
> BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
> is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
> centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
> something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
> at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
> coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
> dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
> has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
> prospects!

Kate, probably that comes from seeing cats returned or worse, finding cats
they adopted out in the kill shelters. I think it just happens to people who
work in the field.

Karen

MaryL
July 24th 03, 11:52 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article , kate at
> wrote on 7/23/03 10:53 PM:
>
> > BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
> > is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
> > centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
> > something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
> > at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
> > coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
> > dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
> > has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
> > prospects!
>


> Kate, probably that comes from seeing cats returned or worse, finding cats
> they adopted out in the kill shelters. I think it just happens to people
who
> work in the field.
>
> Karen
>

Kate,

I agree with what Karen has written. Please re-think this and don't let a
possible adoption disappear because you don't like the attitude of some
workers you have met at shelters. People who work at shelters are often
skeptical because they have seen so many cats that have been returned, or
adoption agreements violated when people abandon their pets or have them
declawed. I adopted Duffy (my blind kitty) in February. He had previously
been adopted to another woman who kept him for two years, then returned him
to the shelter because he found the woman's pet birds and killed one!
Wouldn't it have been sensible to keep birds separate from a cat, even a
blind cat?? The people at the shelter clearly wanted to give Duffy a chance
because he had been there since November, and most would have been
euthanized during that period. However, they could not have kept him much
longer, with kitten season approaching. If I had worked at that shelter,
seeing him in a cage day after day -- for doing something that is natural to
a cat -- would truly have made me angry. He is truly a wonderful and loving
little cat. So, please, think again about getting a cat from a shelter
instead of purchasing one. You would be giving a cat a chance at life (one
that otherwise would probably be euthanized), and you can find just about
any breed or personality you desire if you spend enough time checking at
shelters. Overlook what you may perceive as "attitude" on the part of
shelter workers, and think about how many potential pets they cannot save.

A good place to start looking is at www.Petfinder.com.

MaryL

MaryL
July 24th 03, 11:52 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article , kate at
> wrote on 7/23/03 10:53 PM:
>
> > BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
> > is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
> > centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
> > something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
> > at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
> > coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
> > dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
> > has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
> > prospects!
>


> Kate, probably that comes from seeing cats returned or worse, finding cats
> they adopted out in the kill shelters. I think it just happens to people
who
> work in the field.
>
> Karen
>

Kate,

I agree with what Karen has written. Please re-think this and don't let a
possible adoption disappear because you don't like the attitude of some
workers you have met at shelters. People who work at shelters are often
skeptical because they have seen so many cats that have been returned, or
adoption agreements violated when people abandon their pets or have them
declawed. I adopted Duffy (my blind kitty) in February. He had previously
been adopted to another woman who kept him for two years, then returned him
to the shelter because he found the woman's pet birds and killed one!
Wouldn't it have been sensible to keep birds separate from a cat, even a
blind cat?? The people at the shelter clearly wanted to give Duffy a chance
because he had been there since November, and most would have been
euthanized during that period. However, they could not have kept him much
longer, with kitten season approaching. If I had worked at that shelter,
seeing him in a cage day after day -- for doing something that is natural to
a cat -- would truly have made me angry. He is truly a wonderful and loving
little cat. So, please, think again about getting a cat from a shelter
instead of purchasing one. You would be giving a cat a chance at life (one
that otherwise would probably be euthanized), and you can find just about
any breed or personality you desire if you spend enough time checking at
shelters. Overlook what you may perceive as "attitude" on the part of
shelter workers, and think about how many potential pets they cannot save.

A good place to start looking is at www.Petfinder.com.

MaryL

July 24th 03, 02:38 PM
Yngver wrote:
>And I also recommend you ignore the
>flak you will get here for adopting a
>purebred cat.

Sure. No sense in letting ethics or basic humanity get in the way of
selfish desires. It's so much easier to ignore the murder of millions of
innocents. That blood on your hands will wash right off and nobody will
be the wiser.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 24th 03, 02:38 PM
Yngver wrote:
>And I also recommend you ignore the
>flak you will get here for adopting a
>purebred cat.

Sure. No sense in letting ethics or basic humanity get in the way of
selfish desires. It's so much easier to ignore the murder of millions of
innocents. That blood on your hands will wash right off and nobody will
be the wiser.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

MaryL
July 24th 03, 04:02 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
> >
> IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> ~kaeli~

Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
the explanation. I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very
good homes have been rejected by some shelters, but I am dubious about this
being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly (pictorial history of my blind cat Duffy's
integration into our household):
Duffy, Part I: The Introduction -- http://tinyurl.com/8y54
Duffy, Part II: Life at Home -- http://tinyurl.com/8y56

MaryL
July 24th 03, 04:02 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
> >
> IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> ~kaeli~

Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
the explanation. I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very
good homes have been rejected by some shelters, but I am dubious about this
being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly (pictorial history of my blind cat Duffy's
integration into our household):
Duffy, Part I: The Introduction -- http://tinyurl.com/8y54
Duffy, Part II: Life at Home -- http://tinyurl.com/8y56

July 24th 03, 05:14 PM
kaeli > wrote:
> I agree. This is why I adopt from kill shelters, such as the one over on
> Western. They aren't so picky.

I adopt from kill shelters because the cats are going to get killed. That
and I despise the attitude that says kill shelters are evil just cause
tehy kill. Some one unfortunately has to do it and the no kill shelters
aren't exactly great on that end, they either refuse the cat cause of no
room, kill ones they find unadoptable before they evne get a chance, or
send them off to the kill shelter themselves. They just don't have the
room to take them all so som eone has to. And since there are so many cats
and not enough room, unfortunately some one has to put them to sleep,
especially when it is mandated they take in every pet surrendered to them.

I'll give my money to a kill shelter over a no kill because they need it
more. Peopel are less willing to give their money over and the more moeny
they have the more resources they have to take care of pets and may be
able to take in more and give the animals more time.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 24th 03, 05:14 PM
kaeli > wrote:
> I agree. This is why I adopt from kill shelters, such as the one over on
> Western. They aren't so picky.

I adopt from kill shelters because the cats are going to get killed. That
and I despise the attitude that says kill shelters are evil just cause
tehy kill. Some one unfortunately has to do it and the no kill shelters
aren't exactly great on that end, they either refuse the cat cause of no
room, kill ones they find unadoptable before they evne get a chance, or
send them off to the kill shelter themselves. They just don't have the
room to take them all so som eone has to. And since there are so many cats
and not enough room, unfortunately some one has to put them to sleep,
especially when it is mandated they take in every pet surrendered to them.

I'll give my money to a kill shelter over a no kill because they need it
more. Peopel are less willing to give their money over and the more moeny
they have the more resources they have to take care of pets and may be
able to take in more and give the animals more time.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 24th 03, 05:23 PM
MaryL > wrote:
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very

Actually, I think a lot do becuase they assume that's where you get cats.
I get this impression from working at a pet store that doesn't sell dogs
and people asking what pet stores sell dogs (we have cats from the humane
society and I have yet to ahve anyone ask if there is some where they can
buy a cat instead. Though I've had a few get turned off that thte
application process takes some days). Most that I talk to about buying a
dog seem to at least take my advice in mind not to buy a dog from a pet
store because of support of puppy mills and such and like the advice of
going to the shelter or if they do have their heart set on a breed,
talking to Seattle Purebred Dog rescue or at least finding a responsible
breeder (though I have little faith most ever do so). I've had a few
people at my vet who just want some dog and don't care if it is a
bad breeder and can't find them at the shelter so just looking for the
firs tthey can find.

In general, I find people are a lot more pickier about dog breeds then
they are about cat breeds. In fact, I have to ask people what kind of pet
they have and some one who actually has a cat they know what breed is
really rare. Most people just go, it's a cat. Or a mix, or a
pesty/cute/obnoxious/food loving cat, or a tabby, or a calico. On the
other hand, most people know at least one breed their dog has (it's a GSD
mix, it's got some husky, etc.). People just don't go for cat breeds as
much and I actually wonder where these breeds exist because in general,
evne if some one does say they have a certain rbeed cat, it's usually
abby, siamese, persian, the occasional ragdoll, pixie-bob, bengal, or
himalayan (popularity not in that order. I'd actually say mostly it's
either Siamese, Himmie, or Persian, the others I have jsut seen pop up
more than ocne).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 24th 03, 05:23 PM
MaryL > wrote:
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very

Actually, I think a lot do becuase they assume that's where you get cats.
I get this impression from working at a pet store that doesn't sell dogs
and people asking what pet stores sell dogs (we have cats from the humane
society and I have yet to ahve anyone ask if there is some where they can
buy a cat instead. Though I've had a few get turned off that thte
application process takes some days). Most that I talk to about buying a
dog seem to at least take my advice in mind not to buy a dog from a pet
store because of support of puppy mills and such and like the advice of
going to the shelter or if they do have their heart set on a breed,
talking to Seattle Purebred Dog rescue or at least finding a responsible
breeder (though I have little faith most ever do so). I've had a few
people at my vet who just want some dog and don't care if it is a
bad breeder and can't find them at the shelter so just looking for the
firs tthey can find.

In general, I find people are a lot more pickier about dog breeds then
they are about cat breeds. In fact, I have to ask people what kind of pet
they have and some one who actually has a cat they know what breed is
really rare. Most people just go, it's a cat. Or a mix, or a
pesty/cute/obnoxious/food loving cat, or a tabby, or a calico. On the
other hand, most people know at least one breed their dog has (it's a GSD
mix, it's got some husky, etc.). People just don't go for cat breeds as
much and I actually wonder where these breeds exist because in general,
evne if some one does say they have a certain rbeed cat, it's usually
abby, siamese, persian, the occasional ragdoll, pixie-bob, bengal, or
himalayan (popularity not in that order. I'd actually say mostly it's
either Siamese, Himmie, or Persian, the others I have jsut seen pop up
more than ocne).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:35 PM
(Sherry ) wrote:

>Aww, gee, Yngver. That would be me you're speaking of. Honestly, I don't mean
>to get so hydraulic. Kitten season will do that to you. But I'm very
>equal-opportunity with the flak. My grand-cat is purebred.

I know what you are saying--right now a friend and I are trying to find homes
for a whole slew of kittens found under her porch. I've just gotten a little
tired of seeing newbies meet with such censure here for wanting a purebred cat.
I don't believe that purebreds are really the problem, but that's an argument
that's already been done to death here too.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:35 PM
(Sherry ) wrote:

>Aww, gee, Yngver. That would be me you're speaking of. Honestly, I don't mean
>to get so hydraulic. Kitten season will do that to you. But I'm very
>equal-opportunity with the flak. My grand-cat is purebred.

I know what you are saying--right now a friend and I are trying to find homes
for a whole slew of kittens found under her porch. I've just gotten a little
tired of seeing newbies meet with such censure here for wanting a purebred cat.
I don't believe that purebreds are really the problem, but that's an argument
that's already been done to death here too.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:45 PM
(kate) wrote:

>Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
>mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
>but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
>experience with these places?

We've used the Chicago Cat Clinic for years, and I have friends who use the
Chicago Cat Hospital and rave about it.

Any specific doctors?

They are all good at CCC. I don't really know about CCH but here's the link:
http://www.cathospitalofchicago.com/

> Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
>to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?

Yes, I do. We have used a vet nearer to us who sees both cats and dogs, and for
one thing, it's very stressful for cats to be sitting in a waiting room with a
bunch of barking dogs. Also, if you have to leave your cat there for a
procedure, some small animal vets don't even have separate cage areas for the
cats and dogs, so your cat might end up in a cage right next to a howling dog.

Other than those considerations, I also prefer a vet that is a member of the
American Association of Feline Practioners. It just seems to me that a vet that
specializes in cats is generally going to be more knowledgeable and currrent on
feline medical issues than someone who treats all small animals. That said,
however, in a larger clinic that treats small animals, there may be certain
vets that specialize in cats.

> Thanks so much for your help!
> BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
>is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
>centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
>something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
>at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
>coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
>dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
>has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
>prospects!
>
Actually, I've known a couple of people who first tried to adopt from a
shelter, then decided to go to a breeder because of the same reason you are
describing.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:45 PM
(kate) wrote:

>Thanks for the vet recommendations! I have seen the one on Devin
>mentioned before, and I have heard of the wone one Irving Park road
>but it has never been recommended before. Do you have firsthand
>experience with these places?

We've used the Chicago Cat Clinic for years, and I have friends who use the
Chicago Cat Hospital and rave about it.

Any specific doctors?

They are all good at CCC. I don't really know about CCH but here's the link:
http://www.cathospitalofchicago.com/

> Also, do you think that for cats it is generally a better idea to go
>to a cat doctor rather than an all small animal doc?

Yes, I do. We have used a vet nearer to us who sees both cats and dogs, and for
one thing, it's very stressful for cats to be sitting in a waiting room with a
bunch of barking dogs. Also, if you have to leave your cat there for a
procedure, some small animal vets don't even have separate cage areas for the
cats and dogs, so your cat might end up in a cage right next to a howling dog.

Other than those considerations, I also prefer a vet that is a member of the
American Association of Feline Practioners. It just seems to me that a vet that
specializes in cats is generally going to be more knowledgeable and currrent on
feline medical issues than someone who treats all small animals. That said,
however, in a larger clinic that treats small animals, there may be certain
vets that specialize in cats.

> Thanks so much for your help!
> BTW, I understand the reasons why people want to push adoptions. It
>is something I have definitely considered, and I have visited many
>centers, although I havent connected with any cats. I think it always
>something important to think about. I have also been kind of offended
>at some of the attitude I have recieved from some of the adoption
>coordinators. I must say,I am the ideal cat owner! I work at home, we
>dont have kids, I am good with the vet appts and very attentive. It
>has really been making me mad! These people are passing up some good
>prospects!
>
Actually, I've known a couple of people who first tried to adopt from a
shelter, then decided to go to a breeder because of the same reason you are
describing.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:54 PM
"MaryL" wrote:

>some because they think cats from breeders will be
>healthier (ironically, this is not true),

Do you have evidence to support this statement?

Yngver
July 24th 03, 05:54 PM
"MaryL" wrote:

>some because they think cats from breeders will be
>healthier (ironically, this is not true),

Do you have evidence to support this statement?

Arjun Ray
July 24th 03, 06:15 PM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
| wrote:
|
|> No sense in letting ethics or basic humanity get in the way of selfish
|> desires.

| Not everyone shares your opinion on the issue of purebred cats, you know.

There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.

1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
control."
2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
problem!"

HTH.

Arjun Ray
July 24th 03, 06:15 PM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
| wrote:
|
|> No sense in letting ethics or basic humanity get in the way of selfish
|> desires.

| Not everyone shares your opinion on the issue of purebred cats, you know.

There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.

1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
control."
2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
problem!"

HTH.

Arjun Ray
July 24th 03, 07:53 PM
In >, wrote:
| Arjun Ray > wrote:

|> 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
|> control."
|> 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
|> problem!"
|
| 3. Breeding isn't all evil

Breeding is unquestionably evil whenever overpopulation is in context.

| but you should only do it if you are truly interested in bettering the
| breed (healthwise, personalitywise, and standard wise),

I wonder how many breeders grasp the responsibility involved.

| you are not tryign to make money off of it (it's a hobby, not a career,
| you'll spend more moeny on vet care of mom and kittens than make),

Red herring - the issue is breeding (for betterment), not milling (for
profit).

| you are willing to do stuff like take back any kittens

Bzzzzzt!! Sorry, you were doing so well up till now.

If you are a *responsible* breeder - in it only for the joy of bettering
the breed - then you never take any kittens back.

Because you never have to take any kittens back.

Because you never adopt any kittens out to begin with.

You are in it for the betterment of the breed. Failures and deadwood in
your breeding program are your responsibility. As a responsible breeder
you have no leeway to be genteel or squeamish. You must do your own
culling - for the betterment of the breed, after all.

Don't like that particular implication? Then don't be a breeder, or
even think you can be one. It's as simple as that.

| The world isn't so black and white to say that just cause I am ok with
| breeding doesn't mean I'm not worried about the overpopulation problem.

It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.

The way to say "hey, cat overpopulation isn't *my* problem" and by golly
really mean it, is to deal with your own local overpopulation problem by
yourself.

You are in it for the betterment of the breed. That means only the
breeding stock counts. The rest constitute overpopulation.

| So, despite painting all breeders with such a broad brush maybe you
| should realize some are actively into rescue themselves.

I applaud their rescue efforts. If only they would keep their breeding
efforts to themselves.

Arjun Ray
July 24th 03, 07:53 PM
In >, wrote:
| Arjun Ray > wrote:

|> 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
|> control."
|> 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
|> problem!"
|
| 3. Breeding isn't all evil

Breeding is unquestionably evil whenever overpopulation is in context.

| but you should only do it if you are truly interested in bettering the
| breed (healthwise, personalitywise, and standard wise),

I wonder how many breeders grasp the responsibility involved.

| you are not tryign to make money off of it (it's a hobby, not a career,
| you'll spend more moeny on vet care of mom and kittens than make),

Red herring - the issue is breeding (for betterment), not milling (for
profit).

| you are willing to do stuff like take back any kittens

Bzzzzzt!! Sorry, you were doing so well up till now.

If you are a *responsible* breeder - in it only for the joy of bettering
the breed - then you never take any kittens back.

Because you never have to take any kittens back.

Because you never adopt any kittens out to begin with.

You are in it for the betterment of the breed. Failures and deadwood in
your breeding program are your responsibility. As a responsible breeder
you have no leeway to be genteel or squeamish. You must do your own
culling - for the betterment of the breed, after all.

Don't like that particular implication? Then don't be a breeder, or
even think you can be one. It's as simple as that.

| The world isn't so black and white to say that just cause I am ok with
| breeding doesn't mean I'm not worried about the overpopulation problem.

It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.

The way to say "hey, cat overpopulation isn't *my* problem" and by golly
really mean it, is to deal with your own local overpopulation problem by
yourself.

You are in it for the betterment of the breed. That means only the
breeding stock counts. The rest constitute overpopulation.

| So, despite painting all breeders with such a broad brush maybe you
| should realize some are actively into rescue themselves.

I applaud their rescue efforts. If only they would keep their breeding
efforts to themselves.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 09:27 PM
Arjun Ray wrote:

>There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.
>
> 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
> control."
> 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
> problem!"

No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 09:27 PM
Arjun Ray wrote:

>There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.
>
> 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
> control."
> 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
> problem!"

No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 09:41 PM
Arjun Ray wrote:

>It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
>cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.

It cannot possibly be the "essence" of the overpopulation problem, because so
few owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (less than three percent). The true
essence of the overpopulation problem is, to quote the CFA: "the uncontrolled
matings of feral cats and the unplanned reproduction of free roaming pet cats."

It's estimated that at least 40 percent of the cat population in the U.S. are
unowned cats (strays or ferals). Blaming breeders for the problem of cat
overpopulation is just ludicrous, and does nothing to address the real problem.

Yngver
July 24th 03, 09:41 PM
Arjun Ray wrote:

>It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
>cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.

It cannot possibly be the "essence" of the overpopulation problem, because so
few owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (less than three percent). The true
essence of the overpopulation problem is, to quote the CFA: "the uncontrolled
matings of feral cats and the unplanned reproduction of free roaming pet cats."

It's estimated that at least 40 percent of the cat population in the U.S. are
unowned cats (strays or ferals). Blaming breeders for the problem of cat
overpopulation is just ludicrous, and does nothing to address the real problem.

Arjun Ray
July 25th 03, 02:42 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:

| Arjun Ray wrote:
|
| >It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
| >cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.
|
| It cannot possibly be the "essence" of the overpopulation problem,

Your "it" is not my "that", which was "displacing other cats".

There is also a difference between overpopulation per se, and
overpopulation as a problem. Displacement is the essence of the
problem. You have only to think of the childhood game of musical chairs
to see the issue involved.

Breeders who add to the pool of adoptables are not doing the species any
favors.

Arjun Ray
July 25th 03, 02:42 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:

| Arjun Ray wrote:
|
| >It's very simple. Any breeder who adopts cats out is displacing other
| >cats. That happens to be the essence of the overpopulation *problem*.
|
| It cannot possibly be the "essence" of the overpopulation problem,

Your "it" is not my "that", which was "displacing other cats".

There is also a difference between overpopulation per se, and
overpopulation as a problem. Displacement is the essence of the
problem. You have only to think of the childhood game of musical chairs
to see the issue involved.

Breeders who add to the pool of adoptables are not doing the species any
favors.

Arjun Ray
July 25th 03, 02:47 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
| Arjun Ray wrote:
|
| >There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.
| >
| > 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
| > control."
| > 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
| > problem!"
|
| No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
| responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
| That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

It was glorious day, so you decided to have lunch in the park. You
grabbed a sandwich from the deli and found yourself a bench for a
pleasant hour. When it was time to get to back to work, you crumpled
the brown paper bag and tossed it over your shoulder.

A "negligible impact" on littering, surely.

Arjun Ray
July 25th 03, 02:47 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
| Arjun Ray wrote:
|
| >There are two basic opinions on breeding cats.
| >
| > 1. "What are you doing? The cat overpopulation problem is out of
| > control."
| > 2. "Cat overpopulation? Hey, don't look at me, it isn't *my*
| > problem!"
|
| No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
| responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
| That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

It was glorious day, so you decided to have lunch in the park. You
grabbed a sandwich from the deli and found yourself a bench for a
pleasant hour. When it was time to get to back to work, you crumpled
the brown paper bag and tossed it over your shoulder.

A "negligible impact" on littering, surely.

kate
July 25th 03, 03:04 AM
> No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
> responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
> That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

Cant the two work together? My last purebred cat was my Siamese. After
I got the Siamese cat I adopted a cat from a shelter to have two cats.
I adopted a nasty female that no one wanted. She stayed under my bed
for two months until she finally came out and became the sweetest
kitty (not my other cat, though)
I think breeders do serve an important purpose. If there were no
breeders concerned about keeping the breed standards up, then there
would be no lovely Siamese, no Abys or any of those other specific
temperaments (I do believe these temperaments are very distinct). Had
there been none of these breeds I would not have fallen in love with
cats.
Had I not gotten my Siamese I never would have gotten the adopted
cat.
I intend to do the sazme this time with either a dog or a cat, after
I get the abysinnian.
The reason for overpopulation is because irresponisble pet owners
abandond pets, dont spay and neuter them, etc.
I understand the point about the breeders being a problem, but I
think breeders and adoptions can have a sembiotic relationship

kate
July 25th 03, 03:04 AM
> No, there are actually three opinions, and you left out the third: "The
> responsible breeding of cats has a negligible impact on cat overpopulation."
> That is the opinion of the cat fancies, btw.

Cant the two work together? My last purebred cat was my Siamese. After
I got the Siamese cat I adopted a cat from a shelter to have two cats.
I adopted a nasty female that no one wanted. She stayed under my bed
for two months until she finally came out and became the sweetest
kitty (not my other cat, though)
I think breeders do serve an important purpose. If there were no
breeders concerned about keeping the breed standards up, then there
would be no lovely Siamese, no Abys or any of those other specific
temperaments (I do believe these temperaments are very distinct). Had
there been none of these breeds I would not have fallen in love with
cats.
Had I not gotten my Siamese I never would have gotten the adopted
cat.
I intend to do the sazme this time with either a dog or a cat, after
I get the abysinnian.
The reason for overpopulation is because irresponisble pet owners
abandond pets, dont spay and neuter them, etc.
I understand the point about the breeders being a problem, but I
think breeders and adoptions can have a sembiotic relationship

MaryL
July 25th 03, 05:08 AM
"Yngver" > wrote in message
...
> "MaryL" wrote:
>
> >some because they think cats from breeders will be
> >healthier (ironically, this is not true),
>
> Do you have evidence to support this statement?

One problem that can be found among some purebreds comes from genetic
defects that result from intensive breeding for specific characteristics. A
number of congenital defects are linked to particular breeds of both cats
and dogs. For example, some manx cats have developed a peculiar hopping
motion; in some cases, the abnormality can be crippling. Persians and
himalayans have a high incidence of PKD (polycystic kidney disease),
persians often have breathing problems, hip dysplasia is often seen in Maine
coons, HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) is linked to some breeds, etc. This
certainly does not mean that all purebreds have abnormalities and obviously
does not mean that all shelter cats are healthy. I was commenting on the
perception that many people have that a purebred will somehow be a healthier
cat, when the opposite is sometimes true.

As an aside: if people do want the characteristics found in purebreds, I
would encourage them to look for these cats in shelters or to contact rescue
groups for specific breeds. Cats of many breeds have been abandoned and need
to be placed in a good home.

MaryL

MaryL
July 25th 03, 05:08 AM
"Yngver" > wrote in message
...
> "MaryL" wrote:
>
> >some because they think cats from breeders will be
> >healthier (ironically, this is not true),
>
> Do you have evidence to support this statement?

One problem that can be found among some purebreds comes from genetic
defects that result from intensive breeding for specific characteristics. A
number of congenital defects are linked to particular breeds of both cats
and dogs. For example, some manx cats have developed a peculiar hopping
motion; in some cases, the abnormality can be crippling. Persians and
himalayans have a high incidence of PKD (polycystic kidney disease),
persians often have breathing problems, hip dysplasia is often seen in Maine
coons, HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) is linked to some breeds, etc. This
certainly does not mean that all purebreds have abnormalities and obviously
does not mean that all shelter cats are healthy. I was commenting on the
perception that many people have that a purebred will somehow be a healthier
cat, when the opposite is sometimes true.

As an aside: if people do want the characteristics found in purebreds, I
would encourage them to look for these cats in shelters or to contact rescue
groups for specific breeds. Cats of many breeds have been abandoned and need
to be placed in a good home.

MaryL

July 25th 03, 07:06 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote:
> There is also a difference between overpopulation per se, and
> overpopulation as a problem. Displacement is the essence of the
> problem. You have only to think of the childhood game of musical chairs
> to see the issue involved.

And you'd have to ask people everyday what kind of cat they have (it is
required at my job) to know that very few people have purebreds so they
aren't displacing that many cats in the first place! There are so few that
it really is not that much of an issue! Believe it or not most people
don't care what breed their cat is (dogs are different). Most people don't
even know. Many people get annoyed and say why are you even bothering to
ask me that question, it's a cat! Many people have cats that just came to
them. Many others from shelters. Some from friends who had litters for
various reasons (not breeding, just accidental litters, or ones to teach
the kids the joy of life, or people who don't believe in
spaying/neutering and let their cats roam). Few have them from actual
breeders. And some of the people I ask there's no telling they didn't get
it from the shelter (most peopel consider a cat with points a Siamese so
will say Siamese if you ask though they didn't get their cat from a
breeder).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 25th 03, 07:06 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote:
> There is also a difference between overpopulation per se, and
> overpopulation as a problem. Displacement is the essence of the
> problem. You have only to think of the childhood game of musical chairs
> to see the issue involved.

And you'd have to ask people everyday what kind of cat they have (it is
required at my job) to know that very few people have purebreds so they
aren't displacing that many cats in the first place! There are so few that
it really is not that much of an issue! Believe it or not most people
don't care what breed their cat is (dogs are different). Most people don't
even know. Many people get annoyed and say why are you even bothering to
ask me that question, it's a cat! Many people have cats that just came to
them. Many others from shelters. Some from friends who had litters for
various reasons (not breeding, just accidental litters, or ones to teach
the kids the joy of life, or people who don't believe in
spaying/neutering and let their cats roam). Few have them from actual
breeders. And some of the people I ask there's no telling they didn't get
it from the shelter (most peopel consider a cat with points a Siamese so
will say Siamese if you ask though they didn't get their cat from a
breeder).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 25th 03, 07:30 AM
Kate wrote:

>The reason for overpopulation is
>because irresponisble pet owners
>abandond pets, dont spay and neuter
>them, etc.

Breeders -obviously> don't spay and neuter. Do you see the connection
with what you wrote?

Sure you could adopt the Aby and get a shelter cat, but since you are
willing to have two cats why not go to a foster based rescue and find a
pair that need a home together? The foster can tell you just as much
about the temperament of these particular cats as any breeder could
about their cats.

The bottom line here is that, no matter how you spin it, if you buy a
cat from a breeder, you have contributed to the overpopulation problem
*and* unnecessary death in one fell swoop.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 25th 03, 07:30 AM
Kate wrote:

>The reason for overpopulation is
>because irresponisble pet owners
>abandond pets, dont spay and neuter
>them, etc.

Breeders -obviously> don't spay and neuter. Do you see the connection
with what you wrote?

Sure you could adopt the Aby and get a shelter cat, but since you are
willing to have two cats why not go to a foster based rescue and find a
pair that need a home together? The foster can tell you just as much
about the temperament of these particular cats as any breeder could
about their cats.

The bottom line here is that, no matter how you spin it, if you buy a
cat from a breeder, you have contributed to the overpopulation problem
*and* unnecessary death in one fell swoop.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 25th 03, 08:11 AM
Alice wrote:

>very few people have purebreds so they
>aren't displacing that many cats in the first
>place!

Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
eventual killing of these cats is justified.

>There are so few that it really is not that
>much of an issue!

It is very much of an issue for those cats that are displaced.
Apparently you don't care about them.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 25th 03, 08:11 AM
Alice wrote:

>very few people have purebreds so they
>aren't displacing that many cats in the first
>place!

Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
eventual killing of these cats is justified.

>There are so few that it really is not that
>much of an issue!

It is very much of an issue for those cats that are displaced.
Apparently you don't care about them.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

kaeli
July 25th 03, 02:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >
> > >
> > IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> > the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> > This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
>
> Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
> kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
> the explanation.

Those would all qualify as breeders to me. I didn't say purebred and I
didn't say responsible breeders.
Neighbors and newspaper ads are not shelters.

> I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very
> good homes have been rejected by some shelters, but I am dubious about this
> being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.
>

I didn't say they did.
In fact, I didn't say a thing about purebreds. The paper and pet stores
carry mixed breed dogs, too.

What I said was that the reason people don't adopt from shelters and
rescues is that it is easier to get animals from other sources.
My apologies if I phrased it badly the first time.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
July 25th 03, 02:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >
> > >
> > IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> > the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> > This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
>
> Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
> kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
> the explanation.

Those would all qualify as breeders to me. I didn't say purebred and I
didn't say responsible breeders.
Neighbors and newspaper ads are not shelters.

> I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best." I do realize that some very
> good homes have been rejected by some shelters, but I am dubious about this
> being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.
>

I didn't say they did.
In fact, I didn't say a thing about purebreds. The paper and pet stores
carry mixed breed dogs, too.

What I said was that the reason people don't adopt from shelters and
rescues is that it is easier to get animals from other sources.
My apologies if I phrased it badly the first time.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

MaryL
July 25th 03, 03:30 PM
> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
> > eventual killing of these cats is justified.
>
> And maybe you should realize, your efforts should be put itno stuff that
> has a lot more affect, like people who let their cats roam around
> unspayed, or want a litter just for cuteness just to turn around and give
> that litter to the shelter (or dump them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral
> cat group.
>
> Sure, you can rail on about something that doesn't really affect the
> probelm that much, and not spend as much effort on stuff that does, or you
> can spend your effort on stuff that actually matters a whole lot more!
>
> Alice
>

Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know much
about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.

MaryL

MaryL
July 25th 03, 03:30 PM
> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
> > eventual killing of these cats is justified.
>
> And maybe you should realize, your efforts should be put itno stuff that
> has a lot more affect, like people who let their cats roam around
> unspayed, or want a litter just for cuteness just to turn around and give
> that litter to the shelter (or dump them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral
> cat group.
>
> Sure, you can rail on about something that doesn't really affect the
> probelm that much, and not spend as much effort on stuff that does, or you
> can spend your effort on stuff that actually matters a whole lot more!
>
> Alice
>

Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know much
about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.

MaryL

July 25th 03, 04:00 PM
MaryL > wrote:
> Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know much
> about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.
>

All I am saying is that the purebreds don't really displace that many
homes and ther eare a lot of things that displace homes a lot more. As I
said, I have yet to see any large amount of epople with a purebred. The
most people seem to care is color of the cat (lately I've seen a lot of
people looking everywhere for a ginger cat), other than that it's just a
cat.. most people don't even know anything about any cat breed (other than
Siamese and Persian). A cat's a cat to them. Get them at the shelter, get
them from the newspaper, have kittens themselves (I've met at least
just as many people who have a mother/son mother/daughter cats as
people with purebreds) they don't care. I think though what I consider
breeder and what others do differs. When I talk breeder, I'm talking about
some one who is trying to improve a specific cat breed, not whoever is
advertising random kittens in the newspaper (as som eone else said they
considered breeders). And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or worse,
dumped cats.

Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes more
than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats as
strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
(believe it or not).

What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
kitten. Everytime I have some one looking for a cat, they want a kitten.
They want to know if the shelters have kittens. Or they've already looked
and the shelters don't and they want to know where has them. They can't be
convinced that a cat is a good adoption (oh, I know they need to be
adopted, but we have a special case... we want to see them from young so
we can bond, we have another cat, we just had a cat die and want one we'll
have for a long time).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 25th 03, 04:00 PM
MaryL > wrote:
> Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know much
> about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.
>

All I am saying is that the purebreds don't really displace that many
homes and ther eare a lot of things that displace homes a lot more. As I
said, I have yet to see any large amount of epople with a purebred. The
most people seem to care is color of the cat (lately I've seen a lot of
people looking everywhere for a ginger cat), other than that it's just a
cat.. most people don't even know anything about any cat breed (other than
Siamese and Persian). A cat's a cat to them. Get them at the shelter, get
them from the newspaper, have kittens themselves (I've met at least
just as many people who have a mother/son mother/daughter cats as
people with purebreds) they don't care. I think though what I consider
breeder and what others do differs. When I talk breeder, I'm talking about
some one who is trying to improve a specific cat breed, not whoever is
advertising random kittens in the newspaper (as som eone else said they
considered breeders). And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or worse,
dumped cats.

Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes more
than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats as
strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
(believe it or not).

What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
kitten. Everytime I have some one looking for a cat, they want a kitten.
They want to know if the shelters have kittens. Or they've already looked
and the shelters don't and they want to know where has them. They can't be
convinced that a cat is a good adoption (oh, I know they need to be
adopted, but we have a special case... we want to see them from young so
we can bond, we have another cat, we just had a cat die and want one we'll
have for a long time).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

MaryL
July 25th 03, 04:13 PM
> wrote in message
...
> MaryL > wrote:
> > Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know
much
> > about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.
> >
> When I talk breeder, I'm talking about
> some one who is trying to improve a specific cat breed, not whoever is
> advertising random kittens in the newspaper (as som eone else said they
> considered breeders).

Yes, this is the definition I use. Unfortunately, many abnormalities have
now been instilled in a number of breeds -- even though the original purpose
may have been to "improve" a breed. Look what has happened to persians
(which were originally beautiful cats and which now have what I consider to
be an ugly scrunched-in face -- almost a perpetually angry look). Their
short noses have led to many breathing problems.

And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
> newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or worse,
> dumped cats.
>

Yes, unfortunately true. This is why I suggested in an earlier message that
a person who wants a particular "look" can probably find it at a shelter or
through a rescue group.

> Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
> they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes more
> than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats as
> strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
> (believe it or not).
>
> What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
> kitten.

Agreed. Another big problem, so I am always pleased when someone adopts an
adult cat.

MaryL

MaryL
July 25th 03, 04:13 PM
> wrote in message
...
> MaryL > wrote:
> > Wow, if you really believe this, then it's obvious that you don't know
much
> > about the work that Megan does. I suggest you check her web site.
> >
> When I talk breeder, I'm talking about
> some one who is trying to improve a specific cat breed, not whoever is
> advertising random kittens in the newspaper (as som eone else said they
> considered breeders).

Yes, this is the definition I use. Unfortunately, many abnormalities have
now been instilled in a number of breeds -- even though the original purpose
may have been to "improve" a breed. Look what has happened to persians
(which were originally beautiful cats and which now have what I consider to
be an ugly scrunched-in face -- almost a perpetually angry look). Their
short noses have led to many breathing problems.

And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
> newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or worse,
> dumped cats.
>

Yes, unfortunately true. This is why I suggested in an earlier message that
a person who wants a particular "look" can probably find it at a shelter or
through a rescue group.

> Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
> they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes more
> than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats as
> strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
> (believe it or not).
>
> What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
> kitten.

Agreed. Another big problem, so I am always pleased when someone adopts an
adult cat.

MaryL

Yngver
July 25th 03, 07:03 PM
MaryL" wrote:

>One problem that can be found among some purebreds comes from genetic
>defects that result from intensive breeding for specific characteristics. A
>number of congenital defects are linked to particular breeds of both cats
>and dogs. For example, some manx cats have developed a peculiar hopping
>motion; in some cases, the abnormality can be crippling. Persians and
>himalayans have a high incidence of PKD (polycystic kidney disease),
>persians often have breathing problems, hip dysplasia is often seen in Maine
>coons, HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) is linked to some breeds, etc. This
>certainly does not mean that all purebreds have abnormalities and obviously
>does not mean that all shelter cats are healthy. I was commenting on the
>perception that many people have that a purebred will somehow be a healthier
>cat, when the opposite is sometimes true.

Well, when you qualify your statement by saying the opposite is *sometimes*
true, than it's more acceptable. There are certain genetic disorders linked to
various breeds (or more accurately, lines within those breeds) but one must
consider that tracing genetic disorders in random bred cats is naturally
difficult. HCM is not uncommon in mixed breed cats as well, but the genetic
link can be much more easily identified in purebred cats than in mixed breed
cats, obviously.

Some breeds of cats are actually noted for being generally very healthy and
long-lived.

>
>As an aside: if people do want the characteristics found in purebreds, I
>would encourage them to look for these cats in shelters or to contact rescue
>groups for specific breeds. Cats of many breeds have been abandoned and need
>to be placed in a good home.
>
If people are looking for cats that resemble a certain breed, they may well
find what they want in shelters, but they shouldn't expect to find many
purebred cats there. Most of the time cats described as a certain breed in
shelters are not purebred, but simply look somewhat like a certain breed. That
doesn't mean the cat will have the "characteristics" of the breed, but of
course the cat may well make a fine pet anyway.

Yngver
July 25th 03, 07:03 PM
MaryL" wrote:

>One problem that can be found among some purebreds comes from genetic
>defects that result from intensive breeding for specific characteristics. A
>number of congenital defects are linked to particular breeds of both cats
>and dogs. For example, some manx cats have developed a peculiar hopping
>motion; in some cases, the abnormality can be crippling. Persians and
>himalayans have a high incidence of PKD (polycystic kidney disease),
>persians often have breathing problems, hip dysplasia is often seen in Maine
>coons, HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) is linked to some breeds, etc. This
>certainly does not mean that all purebreds have abnormalities and obviously
>does not mean that all shelter cats are healthy. I was commenting on the
>perception that many people have that a purebred will somehow be a healthier
>cat, when the opposite is sometimes true.

Well, when you qualify your statement by saying the opposite is *sometimes*
true, than it's more acceptable. There are certain genetic disorders linked to
various breeds (or more accurately, lines within those breeds) but one must
consider that tracing genetic disorders in random bred cats is naturally
difficult. HCM is not uncommon in mixed breed cats as well, but the genetic
link can be much more easily identified in purebred cats than in mixed breed
cats, obviously.

Some breeds of cats are actually noted for being generally very healthy and
long-lived.

>
>As an aside: if people do want the characteristics found in purebreds, I
>would encourage them to look for these cats in shelters or to contact rescue
>groups for specific breeds. Cats of many breeds have been abandoned and need
>to be placed in a good home.
>
If people are looking for cats that resemble a certain breed, they may well
find what they want in shelters, but they shouldn't expect to find many
purebred cats there. Most of the time cats described as a certain breed in
shelters are not purebred, but simply look somewhat like a certain breed. That
doesn't mean the cat will have the "characteristics" of the breed, but of
course the cat may well make a fine pet anyway.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:07 PM
wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> > Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
> > eventual killing of these cats is justified.
>
> And maybe you should realize, your efforts should be put itno stuff that
> has a lot more affect, like people who let their cats roam around
> unspayed, or want a litter just for cuteness just to turn around and give
> that litter to the shelter (or dump them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral
> cat group.
>
> Sure, you can rail on about something that doesn't really affect the
> probelm that much

Well, IME, it does affect the problem "that much". Purebreds make up
15-25% of the surrenders at the shelters I worked at - not to mention
the fact that there is an overall cat overpop problem. For breeders
to deny this fact is classic "It's not my problem!" ostrich behavior,
and shows a complete lack of compassion for the plight of cats.

The pure and simple fact is this: 99% of people breeding these animals
don't have any buisness doing so - not for the breed, and not for
society. The other underlying problem is that 99% of that 99% think
*they* belong in the 1% that should be breeding.

I have never met a more repugnant sector of society - they claim to
have the best interst of their animals at heart, yet treat their
animals like chattel - I have been in catteries that were downright
shameful. I have seen veterinary files of breeders three inches
thick, for treatment of animals that are ill-bred. Yet, these
breeders still continue the racket "for the breed". They're selfish,
pugnacious humans, and an embarassment to those who *do* care about
the breeds, and cats, in general. Most are more interested in being
big fish in their little, fetid pond than what they are doing to help
the breed, and I have yet to meet one who is concerned with the
welfare of the feline as a species.

As far as I'm concerned, they can all rot in hell, because that's
where they belong.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:07 PM
wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> > Oh, I see, so as long as it's not *that many* the displacement and
> > eventual killing of these cats is justified.
>
> And maybe you should realize, your efforts should be put itno stuff that
> has a lot more affect, like people who let their cats roam around
> unspayed, or want a litter just for cuteness just to turn around and give
> that litter to the shelter (or dump them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral
> cat group.
>
> Sure, you can rail on about something that doesn't really affect the
> probelm that much

Well, IME, it does affect the problem "that much". Purebreds make up
15-25% of the surrenders at the shelters I worked at - not to mention
the fact that there is an overall cat overpop problem. For breeders
to deny this fact is classic "It's not my problem!" ostrich behavior,
and shows a complete lack of compassion for the plight of cats.

The pure and simple fact is this: 99% of people breeding these animals
don't have any buisness doing so - not for the breed, and not for
society. The other underlying problem is that 99% of that 99% think
*they* belong in the 1% that should be breeding.

I have never met a more repugnant sector of society - they claim to
have the best interst of their animals at heart, yet treat their
animals like chattel - I have been in catteries that were downright
shameful. I have seen veterinary files of breeders three inches
thick, for treatment of animals that are ill-bred. Yet, these
breeders still continue the racket "for the breed". They're selfish,
pugnacious humans, and an embarassment to those who *do* care about
the breeds, and cats, in general. Most are more interested in being
big fish in their little, fetid pond than what they are doing to help
the breed, and I have yet to meet one who is concerned with the
welfare of the feline as a species.

As far as I'm concerned, they can all rot in hell, because that's
where they belong.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:10 PM
wrote in message >...
> Yngver wrote:
>
> >Blaming breeders for the problem of cat
> >overpopulation is just ludicrous, and does
> >nothing to address the real problem.
>
> I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
> for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
> factor, and the unnecessary death of even one cat because of
> displacement by a "purebred" is one too many. I don't care if all the
> so-called breeds disappeared tomorrow if it meant that less cats were
> killed. The life of a cat is inherently important to me. How the cat
> looks is not.
> These specious arguments about temperament and knowing the lineage, etc.
> is nothing more than pretentious bull****.

Amen, sister.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:10 PM
wrote in message >...
> Yngver wrote:
>
> >Blaming breeders for the problem of cat
> >overpopulation is just ludicrous, and does
> >nothing to address the real problem.
>
> I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
> for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
> factor, and the unnecessary death of even one cat because of
> displacement by a "purebred" is one too many. I don't care if all the
> so-called breeds disappeared tomorrow if it meant that less cats were
> killed. The life of a cat is inherently important to me. How the cat
> looks is not.
> These specious arguments about temperament and knowing the lineage, etc.
> is nothing more than pretentious bull****.

Amen, sister.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:25 PM
"MaryL" > wrote in message >...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >
> > >
> > IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> > the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> > This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
>
> Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
> kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
> the explanation. I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best."

IME, working as a vet tech and shelter worker, over 75% of the people
who get purebred cats haven't one clue about the breed. They got the
cat because of the way it looks. Unfortunately most I encountered got
Persians and then were baffled that they:

A.) Had to groom the cat daily, and if they didn't it would become
matted (gasp!)
B.) That it had breathing issues and/or heart conditions
C.) That it would have goopy, runny eyes forever.
D.) Wan't overtly affectionate (some are, some aren't - at all)
E.) Acted out by peeing all over the house after they declawed it

>I do realize that some very
> good homes have been rejected by some shelters,

By and large the homes rejected by shelters aren't proper homes for
pets. Do placement counseling for awhile, and you will understand
why. Oftentimes Bubba and Darnelle have three or four kids they can't
afford already and intend to "get a puppy for the kids", put the dog
in the back yard and let it "be an outside dog". Once the puppy
whines, barks, pees in the house, chews, and acts like a puppy, or
grows out of it's "cute" stage, Bubba and Darnelle will be at the back
door of the shelter surrendering the dog, or worse will "dump it in
the country" to let it fend for itself.

> but I am dubious about this
> being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.
>

Most turned away from shelters are more likely to go to "free to good
home" ads, and then never end up seeking vet care or spay/neuter
services for their animals, thus perpetuating the problem. Some
people just shouldn't have pets, period.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:25 PM
"MaryL" > wrote in message >...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >
> > >
> > IMO, the reason pet stores and breeders are still so popular is because
> > the no-kill shelters and rescues make it very difficult to get a pet.
> > This is in my experience, so of course, YMMV.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
>
> Personally, I doubt that this is the reason. There are too many cats and
> kittens available free from neighbors, newspaper ads, etc. for this to be
> the explanation. I think some people want purebreds because of appearance,
> some because they think a particular breed would also guarantee a certain
> type of personality, some because they think cats from breeders will be
> healthier (ironically, this is not true), and some because of a snobbish
> attitude toward what is perceived as "best."

IME, working as a vet tech and shelter worker, over 75% of the people
who get purebred cats haven't one clue about the breed. They got the
cat because of the way it looks. Unfortunately most I encountered got
Persians and then were baffled that they:

A.) Had to groom the cat daily, and if they didn't it would become
matted (gasp!)
B.) That it had breathing issues and/or heart conditions
C.) That it would have goopy, runny eyes forever.
D.) Wan't overtly affectionate (some are, some aren't - at all)
E.) Acted out by peeing all over the house after they declawed it

>I do realize that some very
> good homes have been rejected by some shelters,

By and large the homes rejected by shelters aren't proper homes for
pets. Do placement counseling for awhile, and you will understand
why. Oftentimes Bubba and Darnelle have three or four kids they can't
afford already and intend to "get a puppy for the kids", put the dog
in the back yard and let it "be an outside dog". Once the puppy
whines, barks, pees in the house, chews, and acts like a puppy, or
grows out of it's "cute" stage, Bubba and Darnelle will be at the back
door of the shelter surrendering the dog, or worse will "dump it in
the country" to let it fend for itself.

> but I am dubious about this
> being a reason why people would turn to purebreds.
>

Most turned away from shelters are more likely to go to "free to good
home" ads, and then never end up seeking vet care or spay/neuter
services for their animals, thus perpetuating the problem. Some
people just shouldn't have pets, period.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:26 PM
(kate) wrote in message >...
> I have put down a deposit on a new aby and she will be ready to pick
> up in late August.

Be ready for high dental bills for frequent teeth cleaning.

-L.

-L.
July 25th 03, 07:26 PM
(kate) wrote in message >...
> I have put down a deposit on a new aby and she will be ready to pick
> up in late August.

Be ready for high dental bills for frequent teeth cleaning.

-L.

Yngver
July 25th 03, 10:55 PM
(-L.) wrote:

>Well, IME, it does affect the problem "that much". Purebreds make up
>15-25% of the surrenders at the shelters I worked at - not to mention
>the fact that there is an overall cat overpop problem.

How do you know they are purebred? I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in a
certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
actually that breed, and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of the
time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

Yngver
July 25th 03, 10:55 PM
(-L.) wrote:

>Well, IME, it does affect the problem "that much". Purebreds make up
>15-25% of the surrenders at the shelters I worked at - not to mention
>the fact that there is an overall cat overpop problem.

How do you know they are purebred? I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in a
certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
actually that breed, and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of the
time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

July 26th 03, 03:21 AM
Yngver > wrote:
> actually that breed, and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of the
> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

Yeah. Before I got Isis I was looking through Siamese rescue and few of
their cats even looked Siamese! People see pointed color and think siamese
a lot of times... they don't even consider fur type or anything else. I
had some one who was telling me he had a siamese, and it turned out the
cat sounded more like a Himalayan.. but it had points so it must be a
Siamese.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 26th 03, 03:21 AM
Yngver > wrote:
> actually that breed, and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of the
> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

Yeah. Before I got Isis I was looking through Siamese rescue and few of
their cats even looked Siamese! People see pointed color and think siamese
a lot of times... they don't even consider fur type or anything else. I
had some one who was telling me he had a siamese, and it turned out the
cat sounded more like a Himalayan.. but it had points so it must be a
Siamese.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 12:58 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 1:17 AM:

> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Yngver) wrote in message
> >...
> |> (-L.) wrote:
>
> |> How do you know they are purebred?
> |
> | If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> | have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> | pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> | a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> She was adopted from a neighborhood rescue group, who had picked her up
> off the streets at (they estimate) about 3 months.
>

She sure is a CUTIE!! "breed" :) that little mustache is adorable.


Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 12:58 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 1:17 AM:

> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Yngver) wrote in message
> >...
> |> (-L.) wrote:
>
> |> How do you know they are purebred?
> |
> | If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> | have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> | pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> | a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> She was adopted from a neighborhood rescue group, who had picked her up
> off the streets at (they estimate) about 3 months.
>

She sure is a CUTIE!! "breed" :) that little mustache is adorable.


Karen

*~*SooZy*~*
July 26th 03, 01:18 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Yngver) wrote in message
>...
> |> (-L.) wrote:
>
> |> How do you know they are purebred?
> |
> | If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> | have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> | pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> | a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> She was adopted from a neighborhood rescue group, who had picked her up
> off the streets at (they estimate) about 3 months.
>
awww they are all lovely but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-) and
Marie what beautiful colourings :-)


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
July 26th 03, 01:18 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Yngver) wrote in message
>...
> |> (-L.) wrote:
>
> |> How do you know they are purebred?
> |
> | If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> | have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> | pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> | a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> She was adopted from a neighborhood rescue group, who had picked her up
> off the streets at (they estimate) about 3 months.
>
awww they are all lovely but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-) and
Marie what beautiful colourings :-)


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 01:59 PM
In >, "*~*SooZy*~*"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message

|> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
|>
|> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?

| awww they are all lovely

I could never get a good close-up picture of Elsa - she wouldn't
cooperate. But no one seems to doubt that she's abyssinian, with that
characteristic coppery coloring.

| but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-)

Luckily I got those pictures before his health took a turn for the
worse. He has CRF, and has lost all his "stuffing".

| and Marie what beautiful colourings :-)

I'll be making an album for her, since she's mine now. There are other
pictures of her here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878

Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
worse.

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 01:59 PM
In >, "*~*SooZy*~*"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message

|> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
|>
|> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?

| awww they are all lovely

I could never get a good close-up picture of Elsa - she wouldn't
cooperate. But no one seems to doubt that she's abyssinian, with that
characteristic coppery coloring.

| but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-)

Luckily I got those pictures before his health took a turn for the
worse. He has CRF, and has lost all his "stuffing".

| and Marie what beautiful colourings :-)

I'll be making an album for her, since she's mine now. There are other
pictures of her here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878

Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
worse.

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 03:32 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:

> In >, "*~*SooZy*~*"
> > wrote:
> | "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
>
> |> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> | awww they are all lovely
>
> I could never get a good close-up picture of Elsa - she wouldn't
> cooperate. But no one seems to doubt that she's abyssinian, with that
> characteristic coppery coloring.
>
> | but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-)
>
> Luckily I got those pictures before his health took a turn for the
> worse. He has CRF, and has lost all his "stuffing".
>
> | and Marie what beautiful colourings :-)
>
> I'll be making an album for her, since she's mine now. There are other
> pictures of her here:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
>
> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
> worse.

I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.
Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it you
hadn't said something!

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 03:32 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:

> In >, "*~*SooZy*~*"
> > wrote:
> | "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
>
> |> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> | awww they are all lovely
>
> I could never get a good close-up picture of Elsa - she wouldn't
> cooperate. But no one seems to doubt that she's abyssinian, with that
> characteristic coppery coloring.
>
> | but Zeke has the most wonderful markings :-)
>
> Luckily I got those pictures before his health took a turn for the
> worse. He has CRF, and has lost all his "stuffing".
>
> | and Marie what beautiful colourings :-)
>
> I'll be making an album for her, since she's mine now. There are other
> pictures of her here:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
>
> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
> worse.

I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.
Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it you
hadn't said something!

Karen

Orchid
July 26th 03, 04:29 PM
On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
wrote:

>In >,
>(-L.) wrote:
>| (Yngver) wrote in message >...
>|> (-L.) wrote:
>
>|> How do you know they are purebred?
>|
>| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
>| pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
>| a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
>See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
>Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?

I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest
answer. If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would
not ID her as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an
Aby's is a smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large
enough, not pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though
I would need a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an
Aby does and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's.
However, that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.
Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in
person:
Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin,
circled by a distinct light area all around the eye and a very
distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.
Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail
looks to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot
that shows her tail.



Orchid

Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

Orchid
July 26th 03, 04:29 PM
On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
wrote:

>In >,
>(-L.) wrote:
>| (Yngver) wrote in message >...
>|> (-L.) wrote:
>
>|> How do you know they are purebred?
>|
>| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
>| pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
>| a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
>See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
>
>Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?

I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest
answer. If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would
not ID her as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an
Aby's is a smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large
enough, not pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though
I would need a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an
Aby does and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's.
However, that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.
Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in
person:
Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin,
circled by a distinct light area all around the eye and a very
distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.
Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail
looks to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot
that shows her tail.



Orchid

Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 05:57 PM
In >,
(Orchid) wrote:
| On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
| wrote:

|> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
|>
|> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
|
| I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest answer.

I'm sorry, how else could it have been taken?

| If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would not ID her
| as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).

Well, she was rescued as a kitten off the streets. Her antecedents are
unknown. Does that disqualify her um, automatically?

| Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an Aby's is a
| smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large enough, not
| pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though I would need
| a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).

I looked at the Abyssinian Cat Association website:

http://www.theabycat.com/

and found quite a lot of variation in the picture gallery:

http://www.theabycat.com/picture_gallery.htm

One picture I found was this one:

http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg

Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture. Her
eyes are a bit more close set, I think, and rounder, though that could
be because she "glares" a lot - reminds you of the schoolmarm stereotype
;-)

| Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an Aby does
| and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's. However,
| that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
| Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
| yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

Inaccurate is a generous description. Cheap digital camera with a truly
ghastly flash, a red bias in color image, and inappropriate pixellation
aspect ratio for typical CRTs; artificial light with lots of wood in the
environment (throwing the reds off even more thanks to JPEG smudging and
lossiness); a cat with a sixth sense for uncooperativeness when it comes
to taking pictures; and PictureTrail's proprietary "improvements" to the
pictures I uploaded (sigh).

| Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in person:

| Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin, circled
| by a distinct light area all around the eye

This I've seen. Is the lighter color mustache also a characteristic?

| and a very distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.

I don't think hers is distinct, though not knowing, I never looked for
it specifically.

| Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail looks
| to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot that
| shows her tail.

Elsa looks big and heavy in the pictures. She's finer boned and only
about 8 pounds.

Thanks for the analysis.

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 05:57 PM
In >,
(Orchid) wrote:
| On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
| wrote:

|> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
|>
|> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
|
| I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest answer.

I'm sorry, how else could it have been taken?

| If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would not ID her
| as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).

Well, she was rescued as a kitten off the streets. Her antecedents are
unknown. Does that disqualify her um, automatically?

| Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an Aby's is a
| smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large enough, not
| pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though I would need
| a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).

I looked at the Abyssinian Cat Association website:

http://www.theabycat.com/

and found quite a lot of variation in the picture gallery:

http://www.theabycat.com/picture_gallery.htm

One picture I found was this one:

http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg

Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture. Her
eyes are a bit more close set, I think, and rounder, though that could
be because she "glares" a lot - reminds you of the schoolmarm stereotype
;-)

| Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an Aby does
| and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's. However,
| that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
| Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
| yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

Inaccurate is a generous description. Cheap digital camera with a truly
ghastly flash, a red bias in color image, and inappropriate pixellation
aspect ratio for typical CRTs; artificial light with lots of wood in the
environment (throwing the reds off even more thanks to JPEG smudging and
lossiness); a cat with a sixth sense for uncooperativeness when it comes
to taking pictures; and PictureTrail's proprietary "improvements" to the
pictures I uploaded (sigh).

| Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in person:

| Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin, circled
| by a distinct light area all around the eye

This I've seen. Is the lighter color mustache also a characteristic?

| and a very distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.

I don't think hers is distinct, though not knowing, I never looked for
it specifically.

| Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail looks
| to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot that
| shows her tail.

Elsa looks big and heavy in the pictures. She's finer boned and only
about 8 pounds.

Thanks for the analysis.

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 06:26 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 11:57 AM:

> In >,
> (Orchid) wrote:
> | On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> | wrote:
>
> |> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
> |
> | I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest answer.
>
> I'm sorry, how else could it have been taken?
>
> | If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would not ID her
> | as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
>
> Well, she was rescued as a kitten off the streets. Her antecedents are
> unknown. Does that disqualify her um, automatically?
>
> | Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an Aby's is a
> | smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large enough, not
> | pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though I would need
> | a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
>
> I looked at the Abyssinian Cat Association website:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/
>
> and found quite a lot of variation in the picture gallery:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/picture_gallery.htm
>
> One picture I found was this one:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg
>
> Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture. Her
> eyes are a bit more close set, I think, and rounder, though that could
> be because she "glares" a lot - reminds you of the schoolmarm stereotype
> ;-)
>
> | Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an Aby does
> | and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's. However,
> | that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
> | Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
> | yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.
>
> Inaccurate is a generous description. Cheap digital camera with a truly
> ghastly flash, a red bias in color image, and inappropriate pixellation
> aspect ratio for typical CRTs; artificial light with lots of wood in the
> environment (throwing the reds off even more thanks to JPEG smudging and
> lossiness); a cat with a sixth sense for uncooperativeness when it comes
> to taking pictures; and PictureTrail's proprietary "improvements" to the
> pictures I uploaded (sigh).
>
> | Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in person:
>
> | Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin, circled
> | by a distinct light area all around the eye
>
> This I've seen. Is the lighter color mustache also a characteristic?
>
> | and a very distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.
>
> I don't think hers is distinct, though not knowing, I never looked for
> it specifically.
>
> | Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail looks
> | to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot that
> | shows her tail.
>
> Elsa looks big and heavy in the pictures. She's finer boned and only
> about 8 pounds.
>
> Thanks for the analysis.
>
Or how about this guy:

http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-leo-051202.jpg

I think her coloring is a LOT like this guy. I certainly have never seen a
stray that looked like her with that coloring and long legs.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 06:26 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 11:57 AM:

> In >,
> (Orchid) wrote:
> | On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> | wrote:
>
> |> See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
> |
> | I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest answer.
>
> I'm sorry, how else could it have been taken?
>
> | If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would not ID her
> | as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
>
> Well, she was rescued as a kitten off the streets. Her antecedents are
> unknown. Does that disqualify her um, automatically?
>
> | Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an Aby's is a
> | smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large enough, not
> | pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though I would need
> | a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
>
> I looked at the Abyssinian Cat Association website:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/
>
> and found quite a lot of variation in the picture gallery:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/picture_gallery.htm
>
> One picture I found was this one:
>
> http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg
>
> Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture. Her
> eyes are a bit more close set, I think, and rounder, though that could
> be because she "glares" a lot - reminds you of the schoolmarm stereotype
> ;-)
>
> | Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an Aby does
> | and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's. However,
> | that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.
> | Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
> | yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.
>
> Inaccurate is a generous description. Cheap digital camera with a truly
> ghastly flash, a red bias in color image, and inappropriate pixellation
> aspect ratio for typical CRTs; artificial light with lots of wood in the
> environment (throwing the reds off even more thanks to JPEG smudging and
> lossiness); a cat with a sixth sense for uncooperativeness when it comes
> to taking pictures; and PictureTrail's proprietary "improvements" to the
> pictures I uploaded (sigh).
>
> | Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in person:
>
> | Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin, circled
> | by a distinct light area all around the eye
>
> This I've seen. Is the lighter color mustache also a characteristic?
>
> | and a very distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.
>
> I don't think hers is distinct, though not knowing, I never looked for
> it specifically.
>
> | Tail -- Abys have a long, slender, tapered tail. Elsa's tail looks
> | to be pretty thick, but I can't tell enough from the one shot that
> | shows her tail.
>
> Elsa looks big and heavy in the pictures. She's finer boned and only
> about 8 pounds.
>
> Thanks for the analysis.
>
Or how about this guy:

http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-leo-051202.jpg

I think her coloring is a LOT like this guy. I certainly have never seen a
stray that looked like her with that coloring and long legs.

Karen

July 26th 03, 07:22 PM
>http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-le
>051202.jpg

Oh look, he gets to live his life in a cage, the lucky fellow. (This
seems to be a common practice as those breeders don't want a stinky
tomcat in the house.)

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 26th 03, 07:22 PM
>http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-le
>051202.jpg

Oh look, he gets to live his life in a cage, the lucky fellow. (This
seems to be a common practice as those breeders don't want a stinky
tomcat in the house.)

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 07:28 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Arjun Ray at
| wrote on 7/26/03 11:57 AM:
| > In >,
| > (Orchid) wrote:

|> One picture I found was this one:
|>
|> http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg
|>
|> Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture.

|>| Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
|>| yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

| Or how about this guy:
|
| http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-leo-051202.jpg
|
| I think her coloring is a LOT like this guy.

I'd say he's a bit duller - her coloring has more "flame" in it, though
that could be a trick of the lighting.

| I certainly have never seen a stray that looked like her with that
| coloring and long legs.

Neither have I, nor the rescue group who among the thousands of cats
they've seen had never encountered one even remotely like her. They
tagged her as an aby, though, if someone were to make a point of it, I
don't think they would have cared *that* much one way or the other.

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 07:28 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Arjun Ray at
| wrote on 7/26/03 11:57 AM:
| > In >,
| > (Orchid) wrote:

|> One picture I found was this one:
|>
|> http://www.theabycat.com/images/gisellekitten.jpg
|>
|> Elsa looks *very* much like the mother (Giselle) in this picture.

|>| Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
|>| yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

| Or how about this guy:
|
| http://www.theabycat.com/images/w-leo-051202.jpg
|
| I think her coloring is a LOT like this guy.

I'd say he's a bit duller - her coloring has more "flame" in it, though
that could be a trick of the lighting.

| I certainly have never seen a stray that looked like her with that
| coloring and long legs.

Neither have I, nor the rescue group who among the thousands of cats
they've seen had never encountered one even remotely like her. They
tagged her as an aby, though, if someone were to make a point of it, I
don't think they would have cared *that* much one way or the other.

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 09:04 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Arjun Ray at
| wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:

|> I'll be making an album for [Marie], since she's mine now. There are
|> other pictures of her here:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
|>
|> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
|> worse.
|
| I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.

Her fur is incredibly soft, a velvety texture. I used to think Phoenix
had soft fur - Marie has him beat paws down.

| Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it
| you hadn't said something!

I suppose it's that pictures are inherently smaller than RL. Here's a
picture taken soon after it was done:

http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg

Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also jarring,
in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what a
complete botch the vet tech accomplished.

Arjun Ray
July 26th 03, 09:04 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Arjun Ray at
| wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:

|> I'll be making an album for [Marie], since she's mine now. There are
|> other pictures of her here:
|>
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
|>
|> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
|> worse.
|
| I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.

Her fur is incredibly soft, a velvety texture. I used to think Phoenix
had soft fur - Marie has him beat paws down.

| Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it
| you hadn't said something!

I suppose it's that pictures are inherently smaller than RL. Here's a
picture taken soon after it was done:

http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg

Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also jarring,
in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what a
complete botch the vet tech accomplished.

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 09:52 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 3:04 PM:

> In >, Karen Chuplis
> > wrote:
> | in article , Arjun Ray at
> | wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:
>
> |> I'll be making an album for [Marie], since she's mine now. There are
> |> other pictures of her here:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
> |> worse.
> |
> | I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.
>
> Her fur is incredibly soft, a velvety texture. I used to think Phoenix
> had soft fur - Marie has him beat paws down.
>
> | Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it
> | you hadn't said something!
>
> I suppose it's that pictures are inherently smaller than RL. Here's a
> picture taken soon after it was done:
>
> http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg
>
> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also jarring,
> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what a
> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.

True, but she is an awfully pretty girl. I think very unusual looking and
those EYES!

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 26th 03, 09:52 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 7/26/03 3:04 PM:

> In >, Karen Chuplis
> > wrote:
> | in article , Arjun Ray at
> | wrote on 7/26/03 7:59 AM:
>
> |> I'll be making an album for [Marie], since she's mine now. There are
> |> other pictures of her here:
> |>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2275686&uid=514878
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=985302&uid=514878
> |>
> |> Don't mind her ear, please. I have seen only one eartipping that was
> |> worse.
> |
> | I LOVE the Pillow picture. They sure look sweet and Marie looks VErY soft.
>
> Her fur is incredibly soft, a velvety texture. I used to think Phoenix
> had soft fur - Marie has him beat paws down.
>
> | Her ear is fine because she is so pretty I wouldn't have even noticed it
> | you hadn't said something!
>
> I suppose it's that pictures are inherently smaller than RL. Here's a
> picture taken soon after it was done:
>
> http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg
>
> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also jarring,
> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what a
> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.

True, but she is an awfully pretty girl. I think very unusual looking and
those EYES!

Karen

-L.
July 27th 03, 02:53 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> wrote:
>
> >In >,
> >(-L.) wrote:
> >| (Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >|> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >| a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >
> >See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> >
> > http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> >
> >Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest
> answer. If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would
> not ID her as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
> Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an
> Aby's is a smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large
> enough, not pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though
> I would need a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
> Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an
> Aby does and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's.
> However, that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.

It's hard to tell from a picture, but I would agree that from what I
can see, her confirmation is wrong.

> Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
> yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

I've seen numerous light Abys - you just can't tell from the pic.


> Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in
> person:
> Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin,
> circled by a distinct light area all around the eye and a very
> distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.

Not always, IME.

Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
squat!


-L.

-L.
July 27th 03, 02:53 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 26 Jul 2003 01:17:34 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> wrote:
>
> >In >,
> >(-L.) wrote:
> >| (Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >|> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well. If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >| a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >
> >See the pictures of Elsa in this album:
> >
> > http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1625086&uid=514878
> >
> >Is she abyssinian or not, do you think?
>
> I am taking this as an honest request that deserves an honest
> answer. If I saw her walking down the street with someone, I would
> not ID her as a Aby (at least definitely not a well-bred one).
> Her head is wrong (her is cobby and slightly jowley, and an
> Aby's is a smoothly contoured modified wedge), her ears are not large
> enough, not pointed enough, and her ear set doesn't look right (though
> I would need a good full-face picture to guage that more accurately).
> Body-wise, she appears to not have the length of leg that an
> Aby does and her body looks to be more heavily boned than an Aby's.
> However, that may just be extra weight and/or inaccurate photography.

It's hard to tell from a picture, but I would agree that from what I
can see, her confirmation is wrong.

> Finally, her colour isn't rich enough -- ruddy Abys are red with rich
> yellow or gold undertones and Elsa is a much cooler red colour.

I've seen numerous light Abys - you just can't tell from the pic.


> Things I can't see from photos that I would look for in
> person:
> Eyeliner -- Abys should have dark brown or black eyelid skin,
> circled by a distinct light area all around the eye and a very
> distinct dark vertical stripe just above the eye.

Not always, IME.

Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
squat!


-L.

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:01 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg

| That's exactly what Bonnie's ear looks like. Hers was tipped when
| they thought I was going to release her.

Yup, same for Marie. She was caught at about 20 weeks of age, generally
far too old to socialize easily. It was a tough choice, in that my
friend Meredtih didn't really want to release her - it wasn't a proper
colony situation (long story). A few days later, while Marie was still
recovering, she finally caught Marie's sister (Amelie, nee Violet). So
she decided to try to socialize them as a pair, especially since Marie
started showing signs of being friendly.

She finally adopted them out to someone who had worked for my (defunct)
company. Jonathan named them Marie and Amelie. The credit for Marie's
complete socialization goes to him. Poor fellow, he had an incredible
string of bad luck.

He moved to Brooklyn with a roommate, to have a larger apartment for the
cats. Then, one day he came home from work to find all the windows wide
open - roomie had had some kind of kitchen accident. Amelie (the wilder
one) was gone, but Marie was sitting calmly on a window sill. (Amelie
actually got out into a set of backyards where there was already a
colony under active management, but she was never seen again - we don't
think she made it through last winter.) Then, this Spring, on the same
day, he got laid off from his job and came home to find a message that
his roomie had been committed to a psychiatric ward! He elected to give
up the apartment, and left Marie with me while he put his stuff in
storage and crashed on other friends' couches. He got an offer for a
fascinating job in the Dominican Republic and took it (I don't blame him
- it's really tough for IT people in this economy). The DR is not a
place to take cats, so Marie has stayed with me. Full cicle for me - I
was with Meredith on the day we trapped Marie (Lilac, back then).

| I don't know what they're supposed to look like.

The cut should be a quarter to half an inch across, not an inch+ chomp.
There are pictures of other eartipped cats in these albums:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=874482&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=926812&uid=514878

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:01 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> http://www.nyct.net/~aray/cats/lilac41.jpg

| That's exactly what Bonnie's ear looks like. Hers was tipped when
| they thought I was going to release her.

Yup, same for Marie. She was caught at about 20 weeks of age, generally
far too old to socialize easily. It was a tough choice, in that my
friend Meredtih didn't really want to release her - it wasn't a proper
colony situation (long story). A few days later, while Marie was still
recovering, she finally caught Marie's sister (Amelie, nee Violet). So
she decided to try to socialize them as a pair, especially since Marie
started showing signs of being friendly.

She finally adopted them out to someone who had worked for my (defunct)
company. Jonathan named them Marie and Amelie. The credit for Marie's
complete socialization goes to him. Poor fellow, he had an incredible
string of bad luck.

He moved to Brooklyn with a roommate, to have a larger apartment for the
cats. Then, one day he came home from work to find all the windows wide
open - roomie had had some kind of kitchen accident. Amelie (the wilder
one) was gone, but Marie was sitting calmly on a window sill. (Amelie
actually got out into a set of backyards where there was already a
colony under active management, but she was never seen again - we don't
think she made it through last winter.) Then, this Spring, on the same
day, he got laid off from his job and came home to find a message that
his roomie had been committed to a psychiatric ward! He elected to give
up the apartment, and left Marie with me while he put his stuff in
storage and crashed on other friends' couches. He got an offer for a
fascinating job in the Dominican Republic and took it (I don't blame him
- it's really tough for IT people in this economy). The DR is not a
place to take cats, so Marie has stayed with me. Full cicle for me - I
was with Meredith on the day we trapped Marie (Lilac, back then).

| I don't know what they're supposed to look like.

The cut should be a quarter to half an inch across, not an inch+ chomp.
There are pictures of other eartipped cats in these albums:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=874482&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=926812&uid=514878

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 03:49 AM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "Cheryl" >
wrote:
>
> Yup, same for Marie. She was caught at about 20 weeks of age,
generally
> far too old to socialize easily.

That's about what I estimated Bonnie to be at the time; 2 months ago
now. She's coming along. :) Lost most of her fear of me. Stage 2,
starting this weekend. :)

It was a tough choice, in that my
> friend Meredtih didn't really want to release her - it wasn't a
proper
> colony situation (long story).

Same here.

A few days later, while Marie was still
> recovering, she finally caught Marie's sister (Amelie, nee Violet).
So
> she decided to try to socialize them as a pair, especially since
Marie
> started showing signs of being friendly.
>
I'm glad that Marie got socialized and maybe Amelie was found by
someone? We can hope! <sigh>
>
> | I don't know what they're supposed to look like.
>
> The cut should be a quarter to half an inch across, not an inch+
chomp.
> There are pictures of other eartipped cats in these albums:
>
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=874482&uid=514878
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=926812&uid=514878
>
>
I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not counting
the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've read
the story of him with the flopped ear. :)

Totally OT, but do you think colonies remember their former mates, or
do you think Bonnie will have a memory of the cats she shared her life
with before I trapped her? The reason I ask is because I built an
outdoor enclosure and at some point she will have the run of the place
(soon, I hope!!) and the others come up to the enclosure when my other
2 cats are out there. I wonder if any of them will remember her, or
she them.

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 03:49 AM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "Cheryl" >
wrote:
>
> Yup, same for Marie. She was caught at about 20 weeks of age,
generally
> far too old to socialize easily.

That's about what I estimated Bonnie to be at the time; 2 months ago
now. She's coming along. :) Lost most of her fear of me. Stage 2,
starting this weekend. :)

It was a tough choice, in that my
> friend Meredtih didn't really want to release her - it wasn't a
proper
> colony situation (long story).

Same here.

A few days later, while Marie was still
> recovering, she finally caught Marie's sister (Amelie, nee Violet).
So
> she decided to try to socialize them as a pair, especially since
Marie
> started showing signs of being friendly.
>
I'm glad that Marie got socialized and maybe Amelie was found by
someone? We can hope! <sigh>
>
> | I don't know what they're supposed to look like.
>
> The cut should be a quarter to half an inch across, not an inch+
chomp.
> There are pictures of other eartipped cats in these albums:
>
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=874482&uid=514878
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1644404&uid=514878
>
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=926812&uid=514878
>
>
I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not counting
the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've read
the story of him with the flopped ear. :)

Totally OT, but do you think colonies remember their former mates, or
do you think Bonnie will have a memory of the cats she shared her life
with before I trapped her? The reason I ask is because I built an
outdoor enclosure and at some point she will have the run of the place
(soon, I hope!!) and the others come up to the enclosure when my other
2 cats are out there. I wonder if any of them will remember her, or
she them.

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 04:39 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

| [20 weeks old is] about what I estimated Bonnie to be at the time; 2
| months ago now. She's coming along. :) Lost most of her fear of me.
| Stage 2, starting this weekend. :)

Letting her have free run of the house? That's progress, great! :-)

| I'm glad that Marie got socialized and maybe Amelie was found by
| someone? We can hope! <sigh>

Yes, but it isn't likely. The feral wasn't really taken out of her.
There's shelter in those backyards (and a defunct church on the corner,
where the main feeding station is), so there was every opportunity to
"join" the colony, in which case she would surely have been seen. She
may have been chased away by the regulars.

| I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not counting
| the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've read
| the story of him with the flopped ear. :)

Ah, good ol' Bigfoot.:-) We went to Rikers a few weeks back, but didn't
see him ourselves. He made it through the winter, and reportedly is
doing great.

As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.

| Totally OT, but do you think colonies remember their former mates, or
| do you think Bonnie will have a memory of the cats she shared her life
| with before I trapped her?

It's possible, but the received wisdom seems to be that cats have better
memory of places than inhabitants. It might be really interesting if
she had a good buddy among her former mates.

| The reason I ask is because I built an outdoor enclosure and at some
| point she will have the run of the place (soon, I hope!!) and the
| others come up to the enclosure when my other 2 cats are out there.
| I wonder if any of them will remember her, or she them.

Worth observing, for sure. And whether she gets an urge to bust out
because of them.

As for memory, I had an interesting experience with my foster kittens.
About three months after I adopted them out, I boarded them for a few
days while their apartment was being cleaned out by the EPA (Long story:
it's in Battery Park City, right next to Ground Zero, and there are
hazmat alerts - mostly bogus - all the time.)

I was prepared to treat them as strangers and just keep them in the big
playpen for the three or four days. When my friend brought them over
and we put them in, it looked like the right thing - they were clearly
freaked. They huddled in a box until I fed them in the evening. By
that time, my fellas (and Marie, who was "new") had checked them out as
best they could through the sheets.

Well, they started meowing - urgent calling. They wanted out. As an
experiment, I lifted the sheets a bit to let them have a look around
(and to let my guys see them.) I know, much too fast...

But no, everyone (save Marie, of course) had clearly recognized each
other! And they were straining at the bars towards me. They made quite
a racket. So, what the hell, I let down the gate. To my amazement, the
girl - the shy one - came out first. She made a beeline for the cat
tree, scratched on it, checked out the kitchen, popped into the bathroom
to sniff the litterboxes, and then went back to the cat tree, where she
climbed up to the second shelf (her old spot) and went to sleep! The
boy went through the same routine, settling in his old favorite cat bed.

They knew exactly where they were.

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 04:39 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

| [20 weeks old is] about what I estimated Bonnie to be at the time; 2
| months ago now. She's coming along. :) Lost most of her fear of me.
| Stage 2, starting this weekend. :)

Letting her have free run of the house? That's progress, great! :-)

| I'm glad that Marie got socialized and maybe Amelie was found by
| someone? We can hope! <sigh>

Yes, but it isn't likely. The feral wasn't really taken out of her.
There's shelter in those backyards (and a defunct church on the corner,
where the main feeding station is), so there was every opportunity to
"join" the colony, in which case she would surely have been seen. She
may have been chased away by the regulars.

| I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not counting
| the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've read
| the story of him with the flopped ear. :)

Ah, good ol' Bigfoot.:-) We went to Rikers a few weeks back, but didn't
see him ourselves. He made it through the winter, and reportedly is
doing great.

As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.

| Totally OT, but do you think colonies remember their former mates, or
| do you think Bonnie will have a memory of the cats she shared her life
| with before I trapped her?

It's possible, but the received wisdom seems to be that cats have better
memory of places than inhabitants. It might be really interesting if
she had a good buddy among her former mates.

| The reason I ask is because I built an outdoor enclosure and at some
| point she will have the run of the place (soon, I hope!!) and the
| others come up to the enclosure when my other 2 cats are out there.
| I wonder if any of them will remember her, or she them.

Worth observing, for sure. And whether she gets an urge to bust out
because of them.

As for memory, I had an interesting experience with my foster kittens.
About three months after I adopted them out, I boarded them for a few
days while their apartment was being cleaned out by the EPA (Long story:
it's in Battery Park City, right next to Ground Zero, and there are
hazmat alerts - mostly bogus - all the time.)

I was prepared to treat them as strangers and just keep them in the big
playpen for the three or four days. When my friend brought them over
and we put them in, it looked like the right thing - they were clearly
freaked. They huddled in a box until I fed them in the evening. By
that time, my fellas (and Marie, who was "new") had checked them out as
best they could through the sheets.

Well, they started meowing - urgent calling. They wanted out. As an
experiment, I lifted the sheets a bit to let them have a look around
(and to let my guys see them.) I know, much too fast...

But no, everyone (save Marie, of course) had clearly recognized each
other! And they were straining at the bars towards me. They made quite
a racket. So, what the hell, I let down the gate. To my amazement, the
girl - the shy one - came out first. She made a beeline for the cat
tree, scratched on it, checked out the kitchen, popped into the bathroom
to sniff the litterboxes, and then went back to the cat tree, where she
climbed up to the second shelf (her old spot) and went to sleep! The
boy went through the same routine, settling in his old favorite cat bed.

They knew exactly where they were.

Orchid
July 27th 03, 06:00 PM
On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:


>Not always, IME.
>
>Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
>surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
>black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
>squat!

*grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.



Orchid

Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

Orchid
July 27th 03, 06:00 PM
On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:


>Not always, IME.
>
>Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
>surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
>black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
>squat!

*grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.



Orchid

Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 08:38 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> Letting her have free run of the house? That's progress, great! :-)
>
Well, not yet. I moved the cage into a back room today and covered
any area where she could hide but still left some small hidy holes
(nothing deep). I shut the door to the room, open her cage and gave
her a bigger litter box outside of the cage (but not far) and sat down
on the floor with a book and decided to sit with her, hoping she'd
come out. She just looked at me for a while then went to sleep. I
left her in there alone with the cage open to see if she'd explore on
her own then go back with her in a bit. I'm hoping it won't take much
more than a week or so to get her used to be outside the cage in a
closed room without the other cats but I'm prepared to let her go on
her terms.

> | I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not
counting
> | the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've
read
> | the story of him with the flopped ear. :)
>
> Ah, good ol' Bigfoot.:-) We went to Rikers a few weeks back, but
didn't
> see him ourselves. He made it through the winter, and reportedly is
> doing great.
>
Great! Tough winter this year to get through, too. I hope he feels
at home. :)

> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we
look
> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap
one.
>
Thanks for the explanation.

It might be really interesting if
> she had a good buddy among her former mates.
>
I am not sure but I know she got chased away from the food if she got
to it first. But she did react strange to Shamrock the first time she
saw him. I had moved the cage to the living room with only part of it
uncovered and Shamrock being the friendly guy he is went to
investigate and she bolted toward him chirping and reaching through
the bars at him sort of startling him. One of the other strays is a
b/w with facial markings similar to Shamrock and I wondered if she
thought he was that one. Maybe she just reacted because he was simply
a cat (one of her own. :))

> | I wonder if any of them will remember her, or she them.
>
> Worth observing, for sure. And whether she gets an urge to bust out
> because of them.
>
Yikes. I think it's escape proof, but then nothing is so I'll be sure
to keep an eye out.

> As for memory, I had an interesting experience with my foster
kittens.

<snip story>
>
> They knew exactly where they were.
>
That is amazing! And probably way less stressful. Good for them and
Marie. :)

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 08:38 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> Letting her have free run of the house? That's progress, great! :-)
>
Well, not yet. I moved the cage into a back room today and covered
any area where she could hide but still left some small hidy holes
(nothing deep). I shut the door to the room, open her cage and gave
her a bigger litter box outside of the cage (but not far) and sat down
on the floor with a book and decided to sit with her, hoping she'd
come out. She just looked at me for a while then went to sleep. I
left her in there alone with the cage open to see if she'd explore on
her own then go back with her in a bit. I'm hoping it won't take much
more than a week or so to get her used to be outside the cage in a
closed room without the other cats but I'm prepared to let her go on
her terms.

> | I couldn't really see any tipped ears on those pictures (not
counting
> | the last where it looked like the whole ear was tipped!) I've
read
> | the story of him with the flopped ear. :)
>
> Ah, good ol' Bigfoot.:-) We went to Rikers a few weeks back, but
didn't
> see him ourselves. He made it through the winter, and reportedly is
> doing great.
>
Great! Tough winter this year to get through, too. I hope he feels
at home. :)

> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we
look
> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap
one.
>
Thanks for the explanation.

It might be really interesting if
> she had a good buddy among her former mates.
>
I am not sure but I know she got chased away from the food if she got
to it first. But she did react strange to Shamrock the first time she
saw him. I had moved the cage to the living room with only part of it
uncovered and Shamrock being the friendly guy he is went to
investigate and she bolted toward him chirping and reaching through
the bars at him sort of startling him. One of the other strays is a
b/w with facial markings similar to Shamrock and I wondered if she
thought he was that one. Maybe she just reacted because he was simply
a cat (one of her own. :))

> | I wonder if any of them will remember her, or she them.
>
> Worth observing, for sure. And whether she gets an urge to bust out
> because of them.
>
Yikes. I think it's escape proof, but then nothing is so I'll be sure
to keep an eye out.

> As for memory, I had an interesting experience with my foster
kittens.

<snip story>
>
> They knew exactly where they were.
>
That is amazing! And probably way less stressful. Good for them and
Marie. :)

July 27th 03, 10:35 PM
Orchid > wrote:
<snipped a bunch of stuff better said than I could>

> overpopulation problem we should look at purebred cats as a problem,
> but not until then. Why drain an lake with an eyedropper when you can
> use a bucket?

Thank you, you put it better than I could (i'm not the best at
articulating myself).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 27th 03, 10:35 PM
Orchid > wrote:
<snipped a bunch of stuff better said than I could>

> overpopulation problem we should look at purebred cats as a problem,
> but not until then. Why drain an lake with an eyedropper when you can
> use a bucket?

Thank you, you put it better than I could (i'm not the best at
articulating myself).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 27th 03, 10:43 PM
Orchid > wrote:
> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.
>

Heh, I actually like the looks better of field labs than show labs (I
wonder where that big barrel chest got popular). They look a lot prettier.
But... they wouldn't be for me because they are way too energetic and
would be very bored and frustrated with me (I'm a bit of a couch potatoe).
Sweet dogs though (the one breeder I know of that I would endorse breeds
field labs, she tells me, at least in this area, more black labs are
bred for fiedl than the other labs. Which I suppose is why I see more
yellow labs iwth a big barrel chest and black labs with more lean
bodies).

Sad cause I do want a GSD but I want an older one that is calmed down (and
on the less work ethic scale of the breed).

Heh, in the dog newsgroup the arguement is not whether there should be
breeding but rather whether epople should be breeding only for field and
not for show (A lot of breeds bred for a purpose have two seperate
standards, show standard, and field standard, field being the dog doing
well at what the breed was originally bred for). I know of one person who
vehemently thinks that dogs should only be bred for field and that show
breeding ruins the breed (because you do have a lot of people focusing too
much on looks rather than functionality and health... they'll breed in
what they think is neat without consideration if it helps the dog).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 27th 03, 10:43 PM
Orchid > wrote:
> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.
>

Heh, I actually like the looks better of field labs than show labs (I
wonder where that big barrel chest got popular). They look a lot prettier.
But... they wouldn't be for me because they are way too energetic and
would be very bored and frustrated with me (I'm a bit of a couch potatoe).
Sweet dogs though (the one breeder I know of that I would endorse breeds
field labs, she tells me, at least in this area, more black labs are
bred for fiedl than the other labs. Which I suppose is why I see more
yellow labs iwth a big barrel chest and black labs with more lean
bodies).

Sad cause I do want a GSD but I want an older one that is calmed down (and
on the less work ethic scale of the breed).

Heh, in the dog newsgroup the arguement is not whether there should be
breeding but rather whether epople should be breeding only for field and
not for show (A lot of breeds bred for a purpose have two seperate
standards, show standard, and field standard, field being the dog doing
well at what the breed was originally bred for). I know of one person who
vehemently thinks that dogs should only be bred for field and that show
breeding ruins the breed (because you do have a lot of people focusing too
much on looks rather than functionality and health... they'll breed in
what they think is neat without consideration if it helps the dog).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 11:31 PM
In >,
(Orchid) wrote:

| That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce the
| shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples' thick
| skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering is
| not only not cruel, but is beneficial.

But breeders are somehow exempt? How convenient a dispensation.

| If, once the moggy and feral shelter population has been reduced
| to the level that the purebred population is currently,

"Purebred" cats are an essentially modern affectation. There was no
good reason for it to have started at all. People projected onto cats
what was once a reputable practice with dogs.

| there is still a huge shelter overpopulation problem we should look
| at purebred cats as a problem, but not until then. Why drain an
| lake with an eyedropper when you can use a bucket?

Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd have
no option but to throw up our hands in despair.

You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The number
of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding area,
or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic, is
in the hundreds.

But what are these hundreds and thousands when there are *millions* of
unwanted cats? Drops in the bucket, that's what. You want one or two
here or there ignored as negligible. What is your argument that my
hundreds are *not* negligible also? What are one or two zeros behind a
number when the problem involves six or seven? You want to pretend that
a number like 1000 is "big" and "makes a difference" when it's actually
one tenth or hundredth of one measly percent? Why should my efforts
make even the slightest bit of difference? By your *logic* - and not
ignorant fascination with numbers taken in isolation - they don't.

Because your *logic* is waiting for a one-fell-swoop solution. We wake
up one day and lo, those millions have magically disappeared. However,
in reality, there is no *scale-based* solution to the problem. It has
become an issue of principle, where every last goddamn drop counts and
makes a difference, because the ONLY WAY we're ever going to make even
the slightest dent in the provlem is NECESSARILY in drips and drabs at a
time.

Sheesh.

Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 11:31 PM
In >,
(Orchid) wrote:

| That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce the
| shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples' thick
| skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering is
| not only not cruel, but is beneficial.

But breeders are somehow exempt? How convenient a dispensation.

| If, once the moggy and feral shelter population has been reduced
| to the level that the purebred population is currently,

"Purebred" cats are an essentially modern affectation. There was no
good reason for it to have started at all. People projected onto cats
what was once a reputable practice with dogs.

| there is still a huge shelter overpopulation problem we should look
| at purebred cats as a problem, but not until then. Why drain an
| lake with an eyedropper when you can use a bucket?

Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd have
no option but to throw up our hands in despair.

You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The number
of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding area,
or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic, is
in the hundreds.

But what are these hundreds and thousands when there are *millions* of
unwanted cats? Drops in the bucket, that's what. You want one or two
here or there ignored as negligible. What is your argument that my
hundreds are *not* negligible also? What are one or two zeros behind a
number when the problem involves six or seven? You want to pretend that
a number like 1000 is "big" and "makes a difference" when it's actually
one tenth or hundredth of one measly percent? Why should my efforts
make even the slightest bit of difference? By your *logic* - and not
ignorant fascination with numbers taken in isolation - they don't.

Because your *logic* is waiting for a one-fell-swoop solution. We wake
up one day and lo, those millions have magically disappeared. However,
in reality, there is no *scale-based* solution to the problem. It has
become an issue of principle, where every last goddamn drop counts and
makes a difference, because the ONLY WAY we're ever going to make even
the slightest dent in the provlem is NECESSARILY in drips and drabs at a
time.

Sheesh.

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 11:56 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd
have
> no option but to throw up our hands in despair.
>
> You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
> count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The
number
> of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
> times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding
area,
> or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic,
is
> in the hundreds.
>
And you can never consider that even those who trap and neuter only in
the handfuls is not making a difference. Every *little* thing anyone
can do makes a difference.

Cheryl
July 27th 03, 11:56 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd
have
> no option but to throw up our hands in despair.
>
> You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
> count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The
number
> of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
> times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding
area,
> or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic,
is
> in the hundreds.
>
And you can never consider that even those who trap and neuter only in
the handfuls is not making a difference. Every *little* thing anyone
can do makes a difference.

Arjun Ray
July 28th 03, 07:11 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd
|> have no option but to throw up our hands in despair.

| And you can never consider that even those who trap and neuter only in
| the handfuls is not making a difference. Every *little* thing anyone
| can do makes a difference.

Absolutely. I don't hold my efforts as anything special. Some do less,
others do more. We each do what we can.

There are no buckets, never mind industrial strngth pumps. Only
eyedroppers - and that's the way it's got to be done if it's to be done
at all.

The "leave the purebreds alone" argument is just a lame plea for elitist
exemption.

Arjun Ray
July 28th 03, 07:11 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd
|> have no option but to throw up our hands in despair.

| And you can never consider that even those who trap and neuter only in
| the handfuls is not making a difference. Every *little* thing anyone
| can do makes a difference.

Absolutely. I don't hold my efforts as anything special. Some do less,
others do more. We each do what we can.

There are no buckets, never mind industrial strngth pumps. Only
eyedroppers - and that's the way it's got to be done if it's to be done
at all.

The "leave the purebreds alone" argument is just a lame plea for elitist
exemption.

Arjun Ray
July 28th 03, 12:38 PM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

| I'm hoping it won't take much more than a week or so to get her used
| to be outside the cage in a closed room without the other cats but
| I'm prepared to let her go on her terms.

Can you pick her up yet? Or at least touch her without her shying away?
With Lucas, I had got to the point where he would gladly come to the
long handled brush, and at any rate wouldn't swat at my hand. I focused
on the contact aspect at that point, and he took to it readily.

|> It might be really interesting if she had a good buddy among her
|> former mates.
|>
| I am not sure but I know she got chased away from the food if she got
| to it first.

Okay, not likely then. The buddy would have been with her.

| But she did react strange to Shamrock the first time she saw him. I
| had moved the cage to the living room with only part of it uncovered
| and Shamrock being the friendly guy he is went to investigate and
| she bolted toward him chirping and reaching through the bars at him
| sort of startling him.

This is not unusual. Ferals can be very feline friendly. She might
have been reacting, "Oh thank goodness, another *cat*!"

| Maybe she just reacted because he was simply a cat (one of her own. :))

Yup :-) Lucas was in a profound funk until he saw Phoenix - he perked
up immediately. About time too, he hadn't eaten in five days and I was
getting very worried.

|> [The kittens] knew exactly where they were.
|>
| That is amazing! And probably way less stressful. Good for them and
| Marie. :)

Well, poor Marie was a bit put out. Who were these strangers promptly
making themselves at home? It didn't help that they were in the pen,
which she was still treating as her "home base". But I guess she was
too new herself to make a big deal about it. Over the course of the
weekend, the boy tried very hard to make friends with her, but she just
avoided them both.

Lucas, of course, loved the extra company. :-)

Arjun Ray
July 28th 03, 12:38 PM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

| I'm hoping it won't take much more than a week or so to get her used
| to be outside the cage in a closed room without the other cats but
| I'm prepared to let her go on her terms.

Can you pick her up yet? Or at least touch her without her shying away?
With Lucas, I had got to the point where he would gladly come to the
long handled brush, and at any rate wouldn't swat at my hand. I focused
on the contact aspect at that point, and he took to it readily.

|> It might be really interesting if she had a good buddy among her
|> former mates.
|>
| I am not sure but I know she got chased away from the food if she got
| to it first.

Okay, not likely then. The buddy would have been with her.

| But she did react strange to Shamrock the first time she saw him. I
| had moved the cage to the living room with only part of it uncovered
| and Shamrock being the friendly guy he is went to investigate and
| she bolted toward him chirping and reaching through the bars at him
| sort of startling him.

This is not unusual. Ferals can be very feline friendly. She might
have been reacting, "Oh thank goodness, another *cat*!"

| Maybe she just reacted because he was simply a cat (one of her own. :))

Yup :-) Lucas was in a profound funk until he saw Phoenix - he perked
up immediately. About time too, he hadn't eaten in five days and I was
getting very worried.

|> [The kittens] knew exactly where they were.
|>
| That is amazing! And probably way less stressful. Good for them and
| Marie. :)

Well, poor Marie was a bit put out. Who were these strangers promptly
making themselves at home? It didn't help that they were in the pen,
which she was still treating as her "home base". But I guess she was
too new herself to make a big deal about it. Over the course of the
weekend, the boy tried very hard to make friends with her, but she just
avoided them both.

Lucas, of course, loved the extra company. :-)

rainyseason
July 28th 03, 04:45 PM
"MaryL" wrote

> Yes, this is the definition I use. Unfortunately, many abnormalities have
> now been instilled in a number of breeds -- even though the original
purpose
> may have been to "improve" a breed. Look what has happened to persians
> (which were originally beautiful cats and which now have what I consider
to
> be an ugly scrunched-in face -- almost a perpetually angry look). Their
> short noses have led to many breathing problems.
>
> And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
> > newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or
worse,
> > dumped cats.
> >
>
> Yes, unfortunately true. This is why I suggested in an earlier message
that
> a person who wants a particular "look" can probably find it at a shelter
or
> through a rescue group.
>
> > Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
> > they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes
more
> > than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats
as
> > strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
> > (believe it or not).
> >
> > What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
> > kitten.
>
> Agreed. Another big problem, so I am always pleased when someone adopts
an
> adult cat.
>
> MaryL


De-lurking for a moment...

This is not meant to disagree with anything people have said about
cat breeders or people who buy breeds, I think the situation in the
UK is mostly how it's meant to be. Though I do know it doesn't
always work out this way.

The breeders I know are extremly interested in producing good
lines, have a lot of knowledge of genetics and will bring in a
cat from outside the UK to widen the gene pool and strengthen
the breed if it's needed. They socialise the kittens, have them
vaccinated before they go to their new homes, the breed papers
are registered as neutered so the new owners can't breed from
them within the official organisations. They vet prospective
buyers extensively and make sure they understand about neutering
and insurance. They also undertake to reclaim the cat if at any
time the new owners can't keep them. These kittens move on at
14 weeks old. 'Mistakes' are treated with the same care but move
on at 12 weeks old.

There are unofficial breeders, there is one locally to me who
breeds Ragdolls, but this breeder takes the utmost care with
the kittens and undertakes to rehome them if necessary.

When my kittens were really ill last year I got a lot of help
from people here and other places. I made contact with
a superb vet who was also a rescuer. Sadly, the minute
she found out one of my cats was a breed cat, she became
very rude to me and I had to block her emails. I felt very
unhappy that there could be such antagonism towards
breed cats and their owners, especially when we all needed
as much help as we did :-(

*******
Barbara
Pick out the stones to email me
*******

rainyseason
July 28th 03, 04:45 PM
"MaryL" wrote

> Yes, this is the definition I use. Unfortunately, many abnormalities have
> now been instilled in a number of breeds -- even though the original
purpose
> may have been to "improve" a breed. Look what has happened to persians
> (which were originally beautiful cats and which now have what I consider
to
> be an ugly scrunched-in face -- almost a perpetually angry look). Their
> short noses have led to many breathing problems.
>
> And as an ad on, a lot of those cats in the
> > newspaper will become shelter cats when they can't find a home. Or
worse,
> > dumped cats.
> >
>
> Yes, unfortunately true. This is why I suggested in an earlier message
that
> a person who wants a particular "look" can probably find it at a shelter
or
> through a rescue group.
>
> > Some of those in the paper are breeders, sure, but I'm pretty sur
> > they wouldn't constitute "responsible" breeders in my opinion (takes
more
> > than just breeding a certain breed). And yet most people get their cats
as
> > strays, from friends who had the accidental litter, or from the shelter
> > (believe it or not).
> >
> > What I think seems to be a big problem is no one wants anything but a
> > kitten.
>
> Agreed. Another big problem, so I am always pleased when someone adopts
an
> adult cat.
>
> MaryL


De-lurking for a moment...

This is not meant to disagree with anything people have said about
cat breeders or people who buy breeds, I think the situation in the
UK is mostly how it's meant to be. Though I do know it doesn't
always work out this way.

The breeders I know are extremly interested in producing good
lines, have a lot of knowledge of genetics and will bring in a
cat from outside the UK to widen the gene pool and strengthen
the breed if it's needed. They socialise the kittens, have them
vaccinated before they go to their new homes, the breed papers
are registered as neutered so the new owners can't breed from
them within the official organisations. They vet prospective
buyers extensively and make sure they understand about neutering
and insurance. They also undertake to reclaim the cat if at any
time the new owners can't keep them. These kittens move on at
14 weeks old. 'Mistakes' are treated with the same care but move
on at 12 weeks old.

There are unofficial breeders, there is one locally to me who
breeds Ragdolls, but this breeder takes the utmost care with
the kittens and undertakes to rehome them if necessary.

When my kittens were really ill last year I got a lot of help
from people here and other places. I made contact with
a superb vet who was also a rescuer. Sadly, the minute
she found out one of my cats was a breed cat, she became
very rude to me and I had to block her emails. I felt very
unhappy that there could be such antagonism towards
breed cats and their owners, especially when we all needed
as much help as we did :-(

*******
Barbara
Pick out the stones to email me
*******

Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:29 PM
"rainyseason" wrote:

>De-lurking for a moment...
>
>This is not meant to disagree with anything people have said about
>cat breeders or people who buy breeds, I think the situation in the
>UK is mostly how it's meant to be. Though I do know it doesn't
>always work out this way.
>
>The breeders I know are extremly interested in producing good
>lines, have a lot of knowledge of genetics and will bring in a
>cat from outside the UK to widen the gene pool and strengthen
>the breed if it's needed. They socialise the kittens, have them
>vaccinated before they go to their new homes, the breed papers
>are registered as neutered so the new owners can't breed from
>them within the official organisations. They vet prospective
>buyers extensively and make sure they understand about neutering
>and insurance. They also undertake to reclaim the cat if at any
>time the new owners can't keep them. These kittens move on at
>14 weeks old. 'Mistakes' are treated with the same care but move
>on at 12 weeks old.
>
>There are unofficial breeders, there is one locally to me who
>breeds Ragdolls, but this breeder takes the utmost care with
>the kittens and undertakes to rehome them if necessary.

Yes, I agree with you. What you describe is how it's supposed to be. And I do
know many breeders in the U.S. who fit your description.
>
>When my kittens were really ill last year I got a lot of help
>from people here and other places. I made contact with
>a superb vet who was also a rescuer. Sadly, the minute
>she found out one of my cats was a breed cat, she became
>very rude to me and I had to block her emails. I felt very
>unhappy that there could be such antagonism towards
>breed cats and their owners, especially when we all needed
>as much help as we did :-(
>
I'm sorry you encountered such hostility. I've always thought it somewhat
peculiar that some cat lovers express such vitriole towards breed cats, their
owners and good breeders. As someone else pointed out, you don't seem to find
that kind of unreasoning hostility towards the breeding of other kinds of
animals. Maybe it's just a cat-person thing. Nevertheless, I do not believe
that U.S. cat fancies will ever be in danger of disappearing, and IMO that's a
good thing.

Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:29 PM
"rainyseason" wrote:

>De-lurking for a moment...
>
>This is not meant to disagree with anything people have said about
>cat breeders or people who buy breeds, I think the situation in the
>UK is mostly how it's meant to be. Though I do know it doesn't
>always work out this way.
>
>The breeders I know are extremly interested in producing good
>lines, have a lot of knowledge of genetics and will bring in a
>cat from outside the UK to widen the gene pool and strengthen
>the breed if it's needed. They socialise the kittens, have them
>vaccinated before they go to their new homes, the breed papers
>are registered as neutered so the new owners can't breed from
>them within the official organisations. They vet prospective
>buyers extensively and make sure they understand about neutering
>and insurance. They also undertake to reclaim the cat if at any
>time the new owners can't keep them. These kittens move on at
>14 weeks old. 'Mistakes' are treated with the same care but move
>on at 12 weeks old.
>
>There are unofficial breeders, there is one locally to me who
>breeds Ragdolls, but this breeder takes the utmost care with
>the kittens and undertakes to rehome them if necessary.

Yes, I agree with you. What you describe is how it's supposed to be. And I do
know many breeders in the U.S. who fit your description.
>
>When my kittens were really ill last year I got a lot of help
>from people here and other places. I made contact with
>a superb vet who was also a rescuer. Sadly, the minute
>she found out one of my cats was a breed cat, she became
>very rude to me and I had to block her emails. I felt very
>unhappy that there could be such antagonism towards
>breed cats and their owners, especially when we all needed
>as much help as we did :-(
>
I'm sorry you encountered such hostility. I've always thought it somewhat
peculiar that some cat lovers express such vitriole towards breed cats, their
owners and good breeders. As someone else pointed out, you don't seem to find
that kind of unreasoning hostility towards the breeding of other kinds of
animals. Maybe it's just a cat-person thing. Nevertheless, I do not believe
that U.S. cat fancies will ever be in danger of disappearing, and IMO that's a
good thing.

Kalyahna
July 29th 03, 01:11 AM
> wrote in message
...
> kaeli > wrote:
> > I agree. This is why I adopt from kill shelters, such as the one over on
> > Western. They aren't so picky.
>
> I adopt from kill shelters because the cats are going to get killed. That
> and I despise the attitude that says kill shelters are evil just cause
> tehy kill. Some one unfortunately has to do it and the no kill shelters
> aren't exactly great on that end, they either refuse the cat cause of no
> room, kill ones they find unadoptable before they evne get a chance, or
> send them off to the kill shelter themselves. They just don't have the
> room to take them all so som eone has to. And since there are so many cats
> and not enough room, unfortunately some one has to put them to sleep,
> especially when it is mandated they take in every pet surrendered to them.

I work for a kill shelter; I was certified in April to perform euthanasia. I
can tell you from personal experience that we do our damnedest to get every
animal a home, provided they show no serious aggression problems and have no
medical conditions that are outside of what we can afford. If we hit
capacity, it's those animals that are euthanised first. We have cats from
November of last year still on the adoptable floor. We have a purebred Staff
terrier who came in in January, and she has a display room all to herself.
Our shelter, at least, does NOT kill within a time limit. It's sad how many
people (even highly educated people) still believe we do.

> I'll give my money to a kill shelter over a no kill because they need it
> more. Peopel are less willing to give their money over and the more moeny
> they have the more resources they have to take care of pets and may be
> able to take in more and give the animals more time.
>
> Alice
>
> --
> The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
> worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
> |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
> /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Kalyahna
July 29th 03, 01:11 AM
> wrote in message
...
> kaeli > wrote:
> > I agree. This is why I adopt from kill shelters, such as the one over on
> > Western. They aren't so picky.
>
> I adopt from kill shelters because the cats are going to get killed. That
> and I despise the attitude that says kill shelters are evil just cause
> tehy kill. Some one unfortunately has to do it and the no kill shelters
> aren't exactly great on that end, they either refuse the cat cause of no
> room, kill ones they find unadoptable before they evne get a chance, or
> send them off to the kill shelter themselves. They just don't have the
> room to take them all so som eone has to. And since there are so many cats
> and not enough room, unfortunately some one has to put them to sleep,
> especially when it is mandated they take in every pet surrendered to them.

I work for a kill shelter; I was certified in April to perform euthanasia. I
can tell you from personal experience that we do our damnedest to get every
animal a home, provided they show no serious aggression problems and have no
medical conditions that are outside of what we can afford. If we hit
capacity, it's those animals that are euthanised first. We have cats from
November of last year still on the adoptable floor. We have a purebred Staff
terrier who came in in January, and she has a display room all to herself.
Our shelter, at least, does NOT kill within a time limit. It's sad how many
people (even highly educated people) still believe we do.

> I'll give my money to a kill shelter over a no kill because they need it
> more. Peopel are less willing to give their money over and the more moeny
> they have the more resources they have to take care of pets and may be
> able to take in more and give the animals more time.
>
> Alice
>
> --
> The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
> worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
> |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
> /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

-L.
July 29th 03, 03:03 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
>
>
> >Not always, IME.
> >
> >Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
> >surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
> >black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
> >squat!
>
> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.

No. HE has a dog that is clearly part rottweilier.

-L.

-L.
July 29th 03, 03:03 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
>
>
> >Not always, IME.
> >
> >Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
> >surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
> >black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
> >squat!
>
> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.

No. HE has a dog that is clearly part rottweilier.

-L.

-L.
July 29th 03, 10:36 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (Orchid) wrote:
>
> | That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce the
> | shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples' thick
> | skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering is
> | not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
>
> But breeders are somehow exempt? How convenient a dispensation.
>
> | If, once the moggy and feral shelter population has been reduced
> | to the level that the purebred population is currently,
>
> "Purebred" cats are an essentially modern affectation. There was no
> good reason for it to have started at all. People projected onto cats
> what was once a reputable practice with dogs.
>
> | there is still a huge shelter overpopulation problem we should look
> | at purebred cats as a problem, but not until then. Why drain an
> | lake with an eyedropper when you can use a bucket?
>
> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd have
> no option but to throw up our hands in despair.
>
> You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
> count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The number
> of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
> times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding area,
> or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic, is
> in the hundreds.
>
> But what are these hundreds and thousands when there are *millions* of
> unwanted cats? Drops in the bucket, that's what. You want one or two
> here or there ignored as negligible. What is your argument that my
> hundreds are *not* negligible also? What are one or two zeros behind a
> number when the problem involves six or seven? You want to pretend that
> a number like 1000 is "big" and "makes a difference" when it's actually
> one tenth or hundredth of one measly percent? Why should my efforts
> make even the slightest bit of difference? By your *logic* - and not
> ignorant fascination with numbers taken in isolation - they don't.
>
> Because your *logic* is waiting for a one-fell-swoop solution. We wake
> up one day and lo, those millions have magically disappeared. However,
> in reality, there is no *scale-based* solution to the problem. It has
> become an issue of principle, where every last goddamn drop counts and
> makes a difference, because the ONLY WAY we're ever going to make even
> the slightest dent in the provlem is NECESSARILY in drips and drabs at a
> time.
>
> Sheesh.


Damn. You're good. Couldn't have said it better, myself.

-L.

-L.
July 29th 03, 10:36 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (Orchid) wrote:
>
> | That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce the
> | shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples' thick
> | skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering is
> | not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
>
> But breeders are somehow exempt? How convenient a dispensation.
>
> | If, once the moggy and feral shelter population has been reduced
> | to the level that the purebred population is currently,
>
> "Purebred" cats are an essentially modern affectation. There was no
> good reason for it to have started at all. People projected onto cats
> what was once a reputable practice with dogs.
>
> | there is still a huge shelter overpopulation problem we should look
> | at purebred cats as a problem, but not until then. Why drain an
> | lake with an eyedropper when you can use a bucket?
>
> Because if we thought of the problem as merely one of scale, we'd have
> no option but to throw up our hands in despair.
>
> You want to know about drops in the bucket? Consider me. I've lost
> count of the number of cats I've participated in the TNR of. The number
> of times I've baited a trap is now in the thousands. The number of
> times I've carted a trap away from a trapping ground to a holding area,
> or brought one up into a mobile S/N van, or transported to a clinic, is
> in the hundreds.
>
> But what are these hundreds and thousands when there are *millions* of
> unwanted cats? Drops in the bucket, that's what. You want one or two
> here or there ignored as negligible. What is your argument that my
> hundreds are *not* negligible also? What are one or two zeros behind a
> number when the problem involves six or seven? You want to pretend that
> a number like 1000 is "big" and "makes a difference" when it's actually
> one tenth or hundredth of one measly percent? Why should my efforts
> make even the slightest bit of difference? By your *logic* - and not
> ignorant fascination with numbers taken in isolation - they don't.
>
> Because your *logic* is waiting for a one-fell-swoop solution. We wake
> up one day and lo, those millions have magically disappeared. However,
> in reality, there is no *scale-based* solution to the problem. It has
> become an issue of principle, where every last goddamn drop counts and
> makes a difference, because the ONLY WAY we're ever going to make even
> the slightest dent in the provlem is NECESSARILY in drips and drabs at a
> time.
>
> Sheesh.


Damn. You're good. Couldn't have said it better, myself.

-L.

-L.
July 29th 03, 10:52 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:28:35 -0500 (CDT), wrote:
>
>
> >This is exactly what I mean by pretentious bull****. Just reading that
> >makes me cringe, as does the fact that the poster sings her own praises
> >about volunteering at shelters, yet kicked those shelter cats to the
> >curb and bought cats from a breeder.
>
> Megan, I don't sing my own praises about anything. People ask
> what I do, I tell them. I'm sorry that I don't fit your mental
> picture of a 'cat rescuer', but not all of us want to live in a small
> apartment with 25 cats. I didn't 'kick shelter cats to the curb', I
> still foster and volunteer with the same places I did before.
>
> >That is the ultimate example of a
> >selfish and cold personality.
>
> Why, thank you, Megan! You're such a sweetheart yourself, you
> know. Not at all holier-than-thou or a bit judgemental. Really, your
> openmindedness and tolerance for others' beliefs and lifestyles has
> been one of the things I respect most about you!
>
> >All these ridiculous human standards are
> >forced on cats that render them either "perfect" (in human eyes only) or
> >"imperfect," and we know what happens to some of those cats. And often
> >the "standard" changes and the cats are forced to as well, usually to
> >the detriment of their health, but hey, that flat face is soooo
> >cute...NOT.
>
> *sigh* Arjun asked if the pictures he posted of a cat looked
> like an Aby, ie, matched the written standard closely enough. I
> examined the pictures against the written standard, and gave him my
> honest opinion.
> As for standards causing poor health, there are two types of
> cat that has had this happen, and I think it is just as abhorrent as
> you do. However, you seem to be missing the point that not all
> breeders breed for features that are detrimental to health, as not
> every breeder breeds Persian-types or Oriental-types. As well, there
> are breeders who have refused to breed for those extreme features,
> which is why we have both classic Persians and classic Siamese out
> there still.
>
> >The whole breeding industry is one big disgusting pile of dung, and what
> >people sometimes force their cats to do in terms of breeding would be
> >looked upon in disgust if those same things were done to humans.
>
> 'Force their cats to do'? Last time I looked, it wasn't
> possible to force a cat to mate.

You've never seen a queen post-multiple-breeding-sessions then. I
have helped to suture up cats that were forced to mate repetedly, all
in the name of "breeding". I've also seen video of bitches being
forcibly restrained by humans to breed.


> What exactly are you talking about
> here?
>
> >The
> >term "purebred" is the ultimate oxymoron considering that most so-called
> >breeds are the result of a freak of genetics, barn cats that looked
> >different, crosses between different types of cats to create new ones,
> >etc.
>
> No offense, Megan, but all "so-called" breeds of every species
> are the results of selective breeding,

Selective inbreeding.

> a process that indeed starts
> with a genetic mutation to cause a feature that humans consider to be
> desirable. If the above was meant to be insulting, sorry, but common
> knowledge isn't. Hell, we have domestic cats in the first place
> because we selectively bred the African and Euopean wildcats that were
> the 'prettiest' and most human-friendly.
>
> >"Pureness" was never there and is not now, and certainly not in the
> >hearts of people that continue to promote this particularly heinous
> >atrocity.
>
> Hyperbole much, Megan dear?
>
> >AFAIC the *only* standard that should be applied across the
> >board is that the cat has a good home, is well cared for, and is happy.
>
> Across the board? Absolutely. There is no one feature that
> every cat should have to have. However, since I suspect that what you
> meant to say was that you desire there to be only one standard at all,
> we can simply disagree. I believe that the happiness of the human
> should be included,

Even at the expense of cats? Interesting.


>and I believe that every kitten should be a
> wanted, socialised, well-cared-for kitten.
> Sadly, the vast majority of cats and kittens in shelters are a
> result of our disposable society. People who adopt kittens

Or buy them, or breed them.

>and throw
> them away when they are cats, people who won't deal with illnesses or
> behavioural problems, people who get cats as toys for their children,
> people who consider cats to be nothing more than an accessory to be
> replaced when they replace their furniture. Kittens pour into
> shelters from people who don't want to spend the money to alter their
> cats, people who think it's cruel for some reason, people who want to
> let their children experience the 'miracle of life', people who don't
> really care what their free-roaming, free-breeding cats do.

Last I looked, some of these these people also A.) are breeders or B.)
get their cats from breeders. The "disposable" mentality is not
monopolized by those who adopt or acquire random-bred cats, ya know.


> That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce
> the shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples'
> thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering
> is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.

Tell that to the breeders, then, as well.

>If, once the moggy and
> feral shelter population has been reduced to the level that the
> purebred population is currently, there is still a huge shelter
> overpopulation problem we should look at purebred cats as a problem,
> but not until then. Why drain an lake with an eyedropper when you can
> use a bucket?

Every drop in needs to be stopped, plain and simple. You cannot
excuse one offender and condemn another. They're all guilty.

-L.

-L.
July 29th 03, 10:52 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:28:35 -0500 (CDT), wrote:
>
>
> >This is exactly what I mean by pretentious bull****. Just reading that
> >makes me cringe, as does the fact that the poster sings her own praises
> >about volunteering at shelters, yet kicked those shelter cats to the
> >curb and bought cats from a breeder.
>
> Megan, I don't sing my own praises about anything. People ask
> what I do, I tell them. I'm sorry that I don't fit your mental
> picture of a 'cat rescuer', but not all of us want to live in a small
> apartment with 25 cats. I didn't 'kick shelter cats to the curb', I
> still foster and volunteer with the same places I did before.
>
> >That is the ultimate example of a
> >selfish and cold personality.
>
> Why, thank you, Megan! You're such a sweetheart yourself, you
> know. Not at all holier-than-thou or a bit judgemental. Really, your
> openmindedness and tolerance for others' beliefs and lifestyles has
> been one of the things I respect most about you!
>
> >All these ridiculous human standards are
> >forced on cats that render them either "perfect" (in human eyes only) or
> >"imperfect," and we know what happens to some of those cats. And often
> >the "standard" changes and the cats are forced to as well, usually to
> >the detriment of their health, but hey, that flat face is soooo
> >cute...NOT.
>
> *sigh* Arjun asked if the pictures he posted of a cat looked
> like an Aby, ie, matched the written standard closely enough. I
> examined the pictures against the written standard, and gave him my
> honest opinion.
> As for standards causing poor health, there are two types of
> cat that has had this happen, and I think it is just as abhorrent as
> you do. However, you seem to be missing the point that not all
> breeders breed for features that are detrimental to health, as not
> every breeder breeds Persian-types or Oriental-types. As well, there
> are breeders who have refused to breed for those extreme features,
> which is why we have both classic Persians and classic Siamese out
> there still.
>
> >The whole breeding industry is one big disgusting pile of dung, and what
> >people sometimes force their cats to do in terms of breeding would be
> >looked upon in disgust if those same things were done to humans.
>
> 'Force their cats to do'? Last time I looked, it wasn't
> possible to force a cat to mate.

You've never seen a queen post-multiple-breeding-sessions then. I
have helped to suture up cats that were forced to mate repetedly, all
in the name of "breeding". I've also seen video of bitches being
forcibly restrained by humans to breed.


> What exactly are you talking about
> here?
>
> >The
> >term "purebred" is the ultimate oxymoron considering that most so-called
> >breeds are the result of a freak of genetics, barn cats that looked
> >different, crosses between different types of cats to create new ones,
> >etc.
>
> No offense, Megan, but all "so-called" breeds of every species
> are the results of selective breeding,

Selective inbreeding.

> a process that indeed starts
> with a genetic mutation to cause a feature that humans consider to be
> desirable. If the above was meant to be insulting, sorry, but common
> knowledge isn't. Hell, we have domestic cats in the first place
> because we selectively bred the African and Euopean wildcats that were
> the 'prettiest' and most human-friendly.
>
> >"Pureness" was never there and is not now, and certainly not in the
> >hearts of people that continue to promote this particularly heinous
> >atrocity.
>
> Hyperbole much, Megan dear?
>
> >AFAIC the *only* standard that should be applied across the
> >board is that the cat has a good home, is well cared for, and is happy.
>
> Across the board? Absolutely. There is no one feature that
> every cat should have to have. However, since I suspect that what you
> meant to say was that you desire there to be only one standard at all,
> we can simply disagree. I believe that the happiness of the human
> should be included,

Even at the expense of cats? Interesting.


>and I believe that every kitten should be a
> wanted, socialised, well-cared-for kitten.
> Sadly, the vast majority of cats and kittens in shelters are a
> result of our disposable society. People who adopt kittens

Or buy them, or breed them.

>and throw
> them away when they are cats, people who won't deal with illnesses or
> behavioural problems, people who get cats as toys for their children,
> people who consider cats to be nothing more than an accessory to be
> replaced when they replace their furniture. Kittens pour into
> shelters from people who don't want to spend the money to alter their
> cats, people who think it's cruel for some reason, people who want to
> let their children experience the 'miracle of life', people who don't
> really care what their free-roaming, free-breeding cats do.

Last I looked, some of these these people also A.) are breeders or B.)
get their cats from breeders. The "disposable" mentality is not
monopolized by those who adopt or acquire random-bred cats, ya know.


> That, IMO, is where the major thrust of our efforts to reduce
> the shelter population should go. We need to pound into peoples'
> thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong commitment*, and that altering
> is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.

Tell that to the breeders, then, as well.

>If, once the moggy and
> feral shelter population has been reduced to the level that the
> purebred population is currently, there is still a huge shelter
> overpopulation problem we should look at purebred cats as a problem,
> but not until then. Why drain an lake with an eyedropper when you can
> use a bucket?

Every drop in needs to be stopped, plain and simple. You cannot
excuse one offender and condemn another. They're all guilty.

-L.

-L.
July 30th 03, 06:19 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 28 Jul 2003 19:03:43 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
>
> (Orchid) wrote in message >...
> >> On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Not always, IME.
> >> >
> >> >Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
> >> >surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
> >> >black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
> >> >squat!
> >>
> >> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> >> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> >> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> >> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.
> >
> >No. HE has a dog that is clearly part rottweilier.
>
> My apologies for the gender assumption. As for 'a dog that is
> clearly part Rottweiler', why? Simply because of the markings? Or is
> there conformation evidence as well? The reason I ask is that
> purebred tanpoint Labs pop up not infrequently in field lines -- see
> picture here -- http://www.odnarb.com/drmdogs.JPG -- all three dogs in
> the picture are purebred and littermates.
>

As a puppy he looked like a barrel-chested black lab. As he aged, the
markings showed up, and he has quite a few rotty characteristics.
<looking at link>

His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.

-L.

-L.
July 30th 03, 06:19 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 28 Jul 2003 19:03:43 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
>
> (Orchid) wrote in message >...
> >> On 26 Jul 2003 18:53:28 -0700, (-L.) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Not always, IME.
> >> >
> >> >Based on what I can see, I would guess Aby mix - but wouldn't be
> >> >surprised if this was a "pedigreed" cat. My friend has a "pedigreed"
> >> >black lab with rotty markings - sometimes papers don't mean diddly
> >> >squat!
> >>
> >> *grin* She has a pointed Lab? Let me guess, field lines?
> >> They tend to pop up a lot in the field side. I think they're really
> >> pretty. And it's a great demonstration of the colour genetics in
> >> Labs, and how solid black is just a masking gene.
> >
> >No. HE has a dog that is clearly part rottweilier.
>
> My apologies for the gender assumption. As for 'a dog that is
> clearly part Rottweiler', why? Simply because of the markings? Or is
> there conformation evidence as well? The reason I ask is that
> purebred tanpoint Labs pop up not infrequently in field lines -- see
> picture here -- http://www.odnarb.com/drmdogs.JPG -- all three dogs in
> the picture are purebred and littermates.
>

As a puppy he looked like a barrel-chested black lab. As he aged, the
markings showed up, and he has quite a few rotty characteristics.
<looking at link>

His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.

-L.

Arjun Ray
July 30th 03, 06:05 PM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:

| His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
| HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
| snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.

Well, being classified as a lab at least saved his tail.

Arjun Ray
July 30th 03, 06:05 PM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:

| His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
| HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
| snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.

Well, being classified as a lab at least saved his tail.

-L.
July 31st 03, 02:13 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> | His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
> | HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
> | snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.
>
> Well, being classified as a lab at least saved his tail.

In a way, yes, in a way, no. The guy I know (who has him now) saved
him from the person who bought him from the breeder. He was destined
for the pound.

-L.

-L.
July 31st 03, 02:13 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> | His markings are not as pronounced as the dog in your pic. He's also
> | HUGE in comparison - broader with a thick head and neck, shorter
> | snout - rotty like. The dog is clearly a rot/lab mix.
>
> Well, being classified as a lab at least saved his tail.

In a way, yes, in a way, no. The guy I know (who has him now) saved
him from the person who bought him from the breeder. He was destined
for the pound.

-L.

Arjun Ray
August 10th 03, 07:19 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
|> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.

| Thanks for the explanation.

I took some pictures today, and got a good one of Greystoke, the fella I
kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
other pictures of him to this album:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878

(Look at the last picture).

Arjun Ray
August 10th 03, 07:19 AM
In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
|> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.

| Thanks for the explanation.

I took some pictures today, and got a good one of Greystoke, the fella I
kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
other pictures of him to this album:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878

(Look at the last picture).

Karen Chuplis
August 10th 03, 12:34 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/10/03 1:19 AM:

> In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
> | "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
> | ...
>
> |> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
> |> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.
>
> | Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I took some pictures today, and got a good one of Greystoke, the fella I
> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
> other pictures of him to this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>
> (Look at the last picture).
>
He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 10th 03, 12:34 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/10/03 1:19 AM:

> In >, "Cheryl" > wrote:
> | "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
> | ...
>
> |> As for the eartips, generally we see them at a distance only if we look
> |> for them (and field glasses can help :-)). It's easy if you trap one.
>
> | Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I took some pictures today, and got a good one of Greystoke, the fella I
> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
> other pictures of him to this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>
> (Look at the last picture).
>
He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?

Karen

Arjun Ray
August 10th 03, 05:23 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:

|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
|>
|> (Look at the last picture [for Greystoke's eartip]).

| He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?

It's the weirdest thing. When I released him after 8 days in March, the
paws looked to be healing. A month later, I heard from the caretaker
that she had seen his paws bleeding. In June, when I was feeding the
colony for a week while the caretaker was away, he was fine - no sign of
injury. Just yesterday, I thought I saw a slight limp, but as close a
look as I could get, everything looked okay.

Somewhere in the church grounds or basement, there could be something
(like broken glass, maybe?) causing him to reinjure himeself. I've
looked around - not everywhere, of course - and havne't found anything.

Arjun Ray
August 10th 03, 05:23 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:

|> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
|>
|> (Look at the last picture [for Greystoke's eartip]).

| He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?

It's the weirdest thing. When I released him after 8 days in March, the
paws looked to be healing. A month later, I heard from the caretaker
that she had seen his paws bleeding. In June, when I was feeding the
colony for a week while the caretaker was away, he was fine - no sign of
injury. Just yesterday, I thought I saw a slight limp, but as close a
look as I could get, everything looked okay.

Somewhere in the church grounds or basement, there could be something
(like broken glass, maybe?) causing him to reinjure himeself. I've
looked around - not everywhere, of course - and havne't found anything.

Karen Chuplis
August 10th 03, 05:37 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/10/03 11:23 AM:

> In >, Karen Chuplis
> > wrote:
>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
> |>
> |> (Look at the last picture [for Greystoke's eartip]).
>
> | He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?
>
> It's the weirdest thing. When I released him after 8 days in March, the
> paws looked to be healing. A month later, I heard from the caretaker
> that she had seen his paws bleeding. In June, when I was feeding the
> colony for a week while the caretaker was away, he was fine - no sign of
> injury. Just yesterday, I thought I saw a slight limp, but as close a
> look as I could get, everything looked okay.
>
> Somewhere in the church grounds or basement, there could be something
> (like broken glass, maybe?) causing him to reinjure himeself. I've
> looked around - not everywhere, of course - and havne't found anything.
>
That is strange!! Unless his pawpads just have a tendancy to dry out and
crack?

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 10th 03, 05:37 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/10/03 11:23 AM:

> In >, Karen Chuplis
> > wrote:
>
> |> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
> |>
> |> (Look at the last picture [for Greystoke's eartip]).
>
> | He's looking pretty healthy. I don't suppose you could check his feet?
>
> It's the weirdest thing. When I released him after 8 days in March, the
> paws looked to be healing. A month later, I heard from the caretaker
> that she had seen his paws bleeding. In June, when I was feeding the
> colony for a week while the caretaker was away, he was fine - no sign of
> injury. Just yesterday, I thought I saw a slight limp, but as close a
> look as I could get, everything looked okay.
>
> Somewhere in the church grounds or basement, there could be something
> (like broken glass, maybe?) causing him to reinjure himeself. I've
> looked around - not everywhere, of course - and havne't found anything.
>
That is strange!! Unless his pawpads just have a tendancy to dry out and
crack?

Karen

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 01:10 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in
:

> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
> other pictures of him to this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>
>

Greystoke is a handsome guy. Those pictures are weird and I'm sure they
aren't caged (yeah, right!) but they look like they're in a zoo. I know
that isn't what it is but that's my impression. lol

I got a picture of Bonnie's eartip (up close, but when she sees me she runs
so it's of her ear ONLY.. hehe) I got some others, though. She really
didn't want to go back in her room but I'm only allowing during the day
freedom on the weekends right now. She still is too wary of me and I really
need to get her to the vet. I think she has ear mites and she's tearing up
her neck (another reason for short integration with the others though I
think they all need treatment for ear mites now.. Shadow's going tomorrow
since he is already scratching his ear to sores and with the FeLV he needs
aggressive treatment for that sort of thing)

pic of Bonnie's ear:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85148094ZMNdzs

This one shows her playing with Shamrock.. you can see her poor tore up
neck from scratching it:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat

The last 6 in the album are from today.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 01:10 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in
:

> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
> other pictures of him to this album:
>
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>
>

Greystoke is a handsome guy. Those pictures are weird and I'm sure they
aren't caged (yeah, right!) but they look like they're in a zoo. I know
that isn't what it is but that's my impression. lol

I got a picture of Bonnie's eartip (up close, but when she sees me she runs
so it's of her ear ONLY.. hehe) I got some others, though. She really
didn't want to go back in her room but I'm only allowing during the day
freedom on the weekends right now. She still is too wary of me and I really
need to get her to the vet. I think she has ear mites and she's tearing up
her neck (another reason for short integration with the others though I
think they all need treatment for ear mites now.. Shadow's going tomorrow
since he is already scratching his ear to sores and with the FeLV he needs
aggressive treatment for that sort of thing)

pic of Bonnie's ear:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85148094ZMNdzs

This one shows her playing with Shamrock.. you can see her poor tore up
neck from scratching it:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat

The last 6 in the album are from today.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:53 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 7:10 PM:

> Arjun Ray > wrote in
> :
>
>> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
>> other pictures of him to this album:
>>
>> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>>
>>
>
> Greystoke is a handsome guy. Those pictures are weird and I'm sure they
> aren't caged (yeah, right!) but they look like they're in a zoo. I know
> that isn't what it is but that's my impression. lol
>
> I got a picture of Bonnie's eartip (up close, but when she sees me she runs
> so it's of her ear ONLY.. hehe) I got some others, though. She really
> didn't want to go back in her room but I'm only allowing during the day
> freedom on the weekends right now. She still is too wary of me and I really
> need to get her to the vet. I think she has ear mites and she's tearing up
> her neck (another reason for short integration with the others though I
> think they all need treatment for ear mites now.. Shadow's going tomorrow
> since he is already scratching his ear to sores and with the FeLV he needs
> aggressive treatment for that sort of thing)
>
> pic of Bonnie's ear:
> http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85148094ZMNdzs
>
> This one shows her playing with Shamrock.. you can see her poor tore up
> neck from scratching it:
> http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat
>
> The last 6 in the album are from today.

She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
control.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:53 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 7:10 PM:

> Arjun Ray > wrote in
> :
>
>> kept 8 days for anitbiotics to help his paws heal. I'll be moving the
>> other pictures of him to this album:
>>
>> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=2584059&uid=514878
>>
>>
>
> Greystoke is a handsome guy. Those pictures are weird and I'm sure they
> aren't caged (yeah, right!) but they look like they're in a zoo. I know
> that isn't what it is but that's my impression. lol
>
> I got a picture of Bonnie's eartip (up close, but when she sees me she runs
> so it's of her ear ONLY.. hehe) I got some others, though. She really
> didn't want to go back in her room but I'm only allowing during the day
> freedom on the weekends right now. She still is too wary of me and I really
> need to get her to the vet. I think she has ear mites and she's tearing up
> her neck (another reason for short integration with the others though I
> think they all need treatment for ear mites now.. Shadow's going tomorrow
> since he is already scratching his ear to sores and with the FeLV he needs
> aggressive treatment for that sort of thing)
>
> pic of Bonnie's ear:
> http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85148094ZMNdzs
>
> This one shows her playing with Shamrock.. you can see her poor tore up
> neck from scratching it:
> http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat
>
> The last 6 in the album are from today.

She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
control.

Karen

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 03:00 AM
Karen Chuplis > wrote in
:

> She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
> control.
>

I've seen kittens doing the arched back reared up thing with each other,
but Shamrock did that today and I was dying laughing. You know.. the
sideways trot with the back arched, tail puffy. She gets him hopping 3
feet in the air. :) Shadow just sits and watches. Bonnie went after him ..
once... but not like she does Shamrock and she learned quickly that he
doesn't like to play.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 03:00 AM
Karen Chuplis > wrote in
:

> She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
> control.
>

I've seen kittens doing the arched back reared up thing with each other,
but Shamrock did that today and I was dying laughing. You know.. the
sideways trot with the back arched, tail puffy. She gets him hopping 3
feet in the air. :) Shadow just sits and watches. Bonnie went after him ..
once... but not like she does Shamrock and she learned quickly that he
doesn't like to play.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:38 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 9:00 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> :
>
>> She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
>> control.
>>
>
> I've seen kittens doing the arched back reared up thing with each other,
> but Shamrock did that today and I was dying laughing. You know.. the
> sideways trot with the back arched, tail puffy. She gets him hopping 3
> feet in the air. :) Shadow just sits and watches. Bonnie went after him ..
> once... but not like she does Shamrock and she learned quickly that he
> doesn't like to play.

It's still entertaining for him though to watch. I love that move. *Very*
ocassionally, Grant will do it, but not like when a kitten. It's hilarious.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:38 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 9:00 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> :
>
>> She sure is a cutie, scratched neck or no! I hope you can get that under
>> control.
>>
>
> I've seen kittens doing the arched back reared up thing with each other,
> but Shamrock did that today and I was dying laughing. You know.. the
> sideways trot with the back arched, tail puffy. She gets him hopping 3
> feet in the air. :) Shadow just sits and watches. Bonnie went after him ..
> once... but not like she does Shamrock and she learned quickly that he
> doesn't like to play.

It's still entertaining for him though to watch. I love that move. *Very*
ocassionally, Grant will do it, but not like when a kitten. It's hilarious.

Karen