View Full Version : Re: Getting ready for a new aby kitten in Chicago-advice on vets
Yngver wrote:
>Not everyone shares your opinion on the
>issue of purebred cats, you know.
Those that choose to remain ignorant of their contribution to the
unnecessary deaths of millions or choose to satisfy their own selfish
desires most likely don't. It's the exact same mindset as that which we
often see here with people that are dead set on declawing.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Alice wrote:
>And maybe you should realize, your
>efforts should be put itno stuff that has a
>lot more affect, like people who let their
>cats roam around unspayed, or want a
>litter just for cuteness just to turn around
>and give that litter to the shelter (or dump
>them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral cat
>group.
You're kidding, right? Have you EVER read this NG????? Good God, your
ignorance is astounding. I have to go to work (gotta support my 25
rescued cats somehow) but here, let me help you by giving you just a few
examples of some of the things I do:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=23543-3E77776C-198%40storefull-2135.public.lawson.webtv.net
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=13860-3E7BDBA5-114%40storefull-2136.public.lawson.webtv.net
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3344988301d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=19403-3C9AD013-53%40storefull-2132.public.lawson.webtv.net
>Sure, you can rail on about something
>that doesn't really affect the probelm that
>much, and not spend as much effort on
>stuff that does, or you can spend your
>effort on stuff that actually matters a
>whole lot more!
So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
are NOT mutually exclusive.
Megan (shaking head in disbelief and disgust)
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Alice wrote:
>And maybe you should realize, your
>efforts should be put itno stuff that has a
>lot more affect, like people who let their
>cats roam around unspayed, or want a
>litter just for cuteness just to turn around
>and give that litter to the shelter (or dump
>them at 2 weeks of age). Or the feral cat
>group.
You're kidding, right? Have you EVER read this NG????? Good God, your
ignorance is astounding. I have to go to work (gotta support my 25
rescued cats somehow) but here, let me help you by giving you just a few
examples of some of the things I do:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=23543-3E77776C-198%40storefull-2135.public.lawson.webtv.net
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=13860-3E7BDBA5-114%40storefull-2136.public.lawson.webtv.net
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3344988301d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=19403-3C9AD013-53%40storefull-2132.public.lawson.webtv.net
>Sure, you can rail on about something
>that doesn't really affect the probelm that
>much, and not spend as much effort on
>stuff that does, or you can spend your
>effort on stuff that actually matters a
>whole lot more!
So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
are NOT mutually exclusive.
Megan (shaking head in disbelief and disgust)
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Yngver
July 25th 03, 07:16 PM
wrote:
>I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
>for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
>factor,
I disagree. As stated, the impact of purebred cats on the ovepopulation problem
is insignificant.
and the unnecessary death of even one cat because of
>displacement by a "purebred" is one too many.
Sure, and every person that adopts a dog instead of cat is contributing to the
needless death of cats. In fact, everyone who doesn't have any cats at all
right now is contributing to the death of cats by not adopting as many as their
house will hold. Sheesh, that's ridiculous.
I don't care if all the
>so-called breeds disappeared tomorrow if it meant that less cats were
>killed. The life of a cat is inherently important to me. How the cat
>looks is not.
If all breeds disappeared, it wouldn't mean fewer cats would be killed however,
and that's why focusing on an aspect of the problem that is insignificant seems
silly to me.
>These specious arguments about temperament and knowing the lineage, etc.
>is nothing more than pretentious bull****.
Sure, because you know better than an individual him or herself which cat is
the right one to adopt.
Yngver
July 25th 03, 07:16 PM
wrote:
>I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
>for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
>factor,
I disagree. As stated, the impact of purebred cats on the ovepopulation problem
is insignificant.
and the unnecessary death of even one cat because of
>displacement by a "purebred" is one too many.
Sure, and every person that adopts a dog instead of cat is contributing to the
needless death of cats. In fact, everyone who doesn't have any cats at all
right now is contributing to the death of cats by not adopting as many as their
house will hold. Sheesh, that's ridiculous.
I don't care if all the
>so-called breeds disappeared tomorrow if it meant that less cats were
>killed. The life of a cat is inherently important to me. How the cat
>looks is not.
If all breeds disappeared, it wouldn't mean fewer cats would be killed however,
and that's why focusing on an aspect of the problem that is insignificant seems
silly to me.
>These specious arguments about temperament and knowing the lineage, etc.
>is nothing more than pretentious bull****.
Sure, because you know better than an individual him or herself which cat is
the right one to adopt.
Sherry
July 26th 03, 02:44 PM
>|> How do you know they are purebred?
>|
>| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
>| pedigrees, as well.
Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't want
to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us some
kind of "gift." BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and want
that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue closeby
for it.
Sherry
Sherry
July 26th 03, 02:44 PM
>|> How do you know they are purebred?
>|
>| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
>| pedigrees, as well.
Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't want
to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us some
kind of "gift." BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and want
that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue closeby
for it.
Sherry
*~*SooZy*~*
July 26th 03, 04:57 PM
"Sherry " > wrote in message
...
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well.
>
> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
> relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
> happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't
want
> to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us
some
> kind of "gift." BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
> shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and
want
> that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
> available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue
closeby
> for it.
>
> Sherry
I think pedigree/purebred cat breeders, are at least keeping their cats
under control.... eg not releasing papers on kittens sold until proof from
vets they have been neutered, many only sell as pets not for breeding, (non
active papers.)
People pay a lot more for potential stud/queens, and they do not let their
cats roam about getting pregnant as much! maybe due to the sheer snobbery of
it all!
I think its the people who just buy the cute little moggie they see at a
mates house, they buy it with all good *intentions* to start with, then
she/he gets out always just before they were just about to take it to the
vets to be neutered!!!!! and then a litter arrives! unwanted kittens, then
their mates take one on and so it goes on! most winding up in shelter some
being pregnant too :-(
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
*~*SooZy*~*
July 26th 03, 04:57 PM
"Sherry " > wrote in message
...
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well.
>
> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
> relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
> happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't
want
> to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us
some
> kind of "gift." BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
> shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and
want
> that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
> available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue
closeby
> for it.
>
> Sherry
I think pedigree/purebred cat breeders, are at least keeping their cats
under control.... eg not releasing papers on kittens sold until proof from
vets they have been neutered, many only sell as pets not for breeding, (non
active papers.)
People pay a lot more for potential stud/queens, and they do not let their
cats roam about getting pregnant as much! maybe due to the sheer snobbery of
it all!
I think its the people who just buy the cute little moggie they see at a
mates house, they buy it with all good *intentions* to start with, then
she/he gets out always just before they were just about to take it to the
vets to be neutered!!!!! and then a litter arrives! unwanted kittens, then
their mates take one on and so it goes on! most winding up in shelter some
being pregnant too :-(
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
Sherry
July 27th 03, 02:22 AM
>> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also
>jarring,
>> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what
>a
>> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.
>
>That's exactly what Bonnie's ear looks like. Hers was tipped when
>they thought I was going to release her. I don't know what they're
>supposed to look like.
>
>
>
>
>> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also
>jarring,
>> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what
>a
>> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.
>
She sure is a beautiful cat though. She looks "wise." :-)
Sherry
Sherry
July 27th 03, 02:22 AM
>> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also
>jarring,
>> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what
>a
>> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.
>
>That's exactly what Bonnie's ear looks like. Hers was tipped when
>they thought I was going to release her. I don't know what they're
>supposed to look like.
>
>
>
>
>> Up close, you can't miss it, and it's really ugly. It's also
>jarring,
>> in that it's the wrong ear too - one can't help being reminded what
>a
>> complete botch the vet tech accomplished.
>
She sure is a beautiful cat though. She looks "wise." :-)
Sherry
-L.
July 27th 03, 03:09 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well.
>
> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
> relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
> happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't want
> to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us >some
> kind of "gift."
That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
> shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and want
> that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
> available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue closeby
> for it.
The breeds most likely dumped, IME, are Siamese and Persians. I have
seen a Japanese Bob Tail - that one was a shocker.
-l.
-L.
July 27th 03, 03:09 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> >|> How do you know they are purebred?
> >|
> >| If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >| have come from purebred parents or parentage. Some come in with
> >| pedigrees, as well.
>
> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people who
> relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers, and are more than
> happy to stand there and say "We paid $500 for her, and we *really* don't want
> to give her up, but <insert lame excuse>. They act like they're giving us >some
> kind of "gift."
That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>BTW, they get adopted real quick. Which *does* displace a
> shelter cat--people come in looking for any cat, spot the purebred and want
> that one. That's why we turn them over to breed rescues if there is one
> available. We had a Korat recently and couldn't locate a breed rescue closeby
> for it.
The breeds most likely dumped, IME, are Siamese and Persians. I have
seen a Japanese Bob Tail - that one was a shocker.
-l.
-L.
July 27th 03, 03:16 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> >
> >>I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
> >>for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
> >>factor,
> >
> >I disagree. As stated, the impact of purebred cats on the ovepopulation
> >problem
> >is insignificant.
> >
> I still just don't buy that statement. "Purebred" cats are produced by
> responsible breeders who never allow a pet quality kitten sold without
> provisions in the contract it will be spayed/neutered. Purebred cats are also
> produced by backyard breeders and kitten mills (particularly common breeds >like
> appleheads and persians)...You're lucky if you get a kitten who has had its
> shots, and they sure don't give a damn what kind of home it goes to, or >whether
> it will be used for breeding. But these people continue profiting off their
> "product" -- because there is a consumer demand for it.
And the "papers" on the BYB, ill-bred animal are just as valid as the
"papers" on the well-bred animal. It's a a huge self-promoting sham,
IMO.
One needs only to walk through the shelters to understand how much of
an impact breeding has on the pet overpopulation problem. I don't
think I have ever walked in without encountering at least two purebred
cats, and four or five purebred dogs, every single time I walk
through. And that's not even counting the obvious mixes.
-L.
-L.
July 27th 03, 03:16 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> >
> >>I don't see where anybody has said that breeders are solely responsible
> >>for the overpopulation problem. They certainly are a contributing
> >>factor,
> >
> >I disagree. As stated, the impact of purebred cats on the ovepopulation
> >problem
> >is insignificant.
> >
> I still just don't buy that statement. "Purebred" cats are produced by
> responsible breeders who never allow a pet quality kitten sold without
> provisions in the contract it will be spayed/neutered. Purebred cats are also
> produced by backyard breeders and kitten mills (particularly common breeds >like
> appleheads and persians)...You're lucky if you get a kitten who has had its
> shots, and they sure don't give a damn what kind of home it goes to, or >whether
> it will be used for breeding. But these people continue profiting off their
> "product" -- because there is a consumer demand for it.
And the "papers" on the BYB, ill-bred animal are just as valid as the
"papers" on the well-bred animal. It's a a huge self-promoting sham,
IMO.
One needs only to walk through the shelters to understand how much of
an impact breeding has on the pet overpopulation problem. I don't
think I have ever walked in without encountering at least two purebred
cats, and four or five purebred dogs, every single time I walk
through. And that's not even counting the obvious mixes.
-L.
Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:55 AM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:
| (Sherry ) wrote in message >...
|> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
|> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
| That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:55 AM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:
| (Sherry ) wrote in message >...
|> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
|> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
| That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:58 AM
In >,
(Sherry ) wrote:
| She sure is a beautiful cat though. She looks "wise." :-)
Yes, she does.:-)
But as Karen says, it's her eyes. The exotic green goes rather well
with her muted tortie coloring.
Arjun Ray
July 27th 03, 03:58 AM
In >,
(Sherry ) wrote:
| She sure is a beautiful cat though. She looks "wise." :-)
Yes, she does.:-)
But as Karen says, it's her eyes. The exotic green goes rather well
with her muted tortie coloring.
Sherry
July 27th 03, 04:50 AM
>|> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
>|> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
>
>| That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>
>But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
>cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
>
I don't think the average BYB even has contracts. Like Lyn said, its always
Persians and Siamese, too. I guess they're common enough that one BYB can buy a
Mommy Persian and a Daddy Persian from another BYB without spay/neuter
agreements and voila! They're in bidness. Arrggh.. You know what else really
asses me, while I'm on a roll? BYB's who like to screw around and breed their
Himmie to the neighbor's Persian, or whatever, "Just to see what the kittens
look like." That's probably how twisty cats got started. Some stupid BYB
screwing around.
Sorry. Off the soapbox now.
Sherry
Sherry
July 27th 03, 04:50 AM
>|> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
>|> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
>
>| That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>
>But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
>cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
>
I don't think the average BYB even has contracts. Like Lyn said, its always
Persians and Siamese, too. I guess they're common enough that one BYB can buy a
Mommy Persian and a Daddy Persian from another BYB without spay/neuter
agreements and voila! They're in bidness. Arrggh.. You know what else really
asses me, while I'm on a roll? BYB's who like to screw around and breed their
Himmie to the neighbor's Persian, or whatever, "Just to see what the kittens
look like." That's probably how twisty cats got started. Some stupid BYB
screwing around.
Sorry. Off the soapbox now.
Sherry
Arjun Ray > wrote:
> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Well, it's a convenient myth if you go to any breeder. Not all breeders
are equal. It's definitely hard to find a responsible breeder, no one is
denying that. But one thing one should look for is a clause to return to
the breeder (not that one should want to return the pet, but that the
breeder cares enoguh to want ot make sure any animal she puts in the world
is always going to have a good home, even if it means coming back to her).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Arjun Ray > wrote:
> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Well, it's a convenient myth if you go to any breeder. Not all breeders
are equal. It's definitely hard to find a responsible breeder, no one is
denying that. But one thing one should look for is a clause to return to
the breeder (not that one should want to return the pet, but that the
breeder cares enoguh to want ot make sure any animal she puts in the world
is always going to have a good home, even if it means coming back to her).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
-L.
July 27th 03, 10:25 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Sherry ) wrote in message >...
>
> |> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
> |> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
>
> | That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>
> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Oh, some use return clauses, some don't. But that doesn't guarantee
that the breeder will come and get them, if contacted. I know of one
cat that was surrendered to a shelter because the owner was elderly
and ill, and the breeder was contacted, and over a week later, the cat
was still waiting to be picked up. It wasn't until the rescue people
started circulating an adoption plea for this cat, that the breeder
got embarassed and was shamed into going in to get the cat. By that
time, another home had been found, which was probably her MO to begin
with.
This particular breeder is a real gem - I know story upon story about
her, and have had to deal with her myself on a couple of occassions.
There is no torture horrid enough for her, IMO.
-L.
-L.
July 27th 03, 10:25 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >,
> (-L.) wrote:
> | (Sherry ) wrote in message >...
>
> |> Besides that, we know ours are purebred because the pond scum people
> |> who relinquish them are all too happy to provide the papers,
>
> | That's what I mean, that they come in with Pedigrees.
>
> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
Oh, some use return clauses, some don't. But that doesn't guarantee
that the breeder will come and get them, if contacted. I know of one
cat that was surrendered to a shelter because the owner was elderly
and ill, and the breeder was contacted, and over a week later, the cat
was still waiting to be picked up. It wasn't until the rescue people
started circulating an adoption plea for this cat, that the breeder
got embarassed and was shamed into going in to get the cat. By that
time, another home had been found, which was probably her MO to begin
with.
This particular breeder is a real gem - I know story upon story about
her, and have had to deal with her myself on a couple of occassions.
There is no torture horrid enough for her, IMO.
-L.
-L. > wrote:
> her, and have had to deal with her myself on a couple of occassions.
> There is no torture horrid enough for her, IMO.
Yeah, just cause it is in the contract doesn't mean they actually care.
But not having it in the contract is a pretty good sign they don't.
It's hard finding a good breeder which is why I probably won't do it again
and I want to get my dog from a purebreed rescue so I don't have to worry
that I supported some one who really shouldn't be breeding (and yes, I'll
also be looking at the shelters and I'm not ruling out find a dog I find
in the shelters that just seems to fit).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
-L. > wrote:
> her, and have had to deal with her myself on a couple of occassions.
> There is no torture horrid enough for her, IMO.
Yeah, just cause it is in the contract doesn't mean they actually care.
But not having it in the contract is a pretty good sign they don't.
It's hard finding a good breeder which is why I probably won't do it again
and I want to get my dog from a purebreed rescue so I don't have to worry
that I supported some one who really shouldn't be breeding (and yes, I'll
also be looking at the shelters and I'm not ruling out find a dog I find
in the shelters that just seems to fit).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:38 PM
(Sherry ) wrote:
> Purebred cats are also
>produced by backyard breeders and kitten mills (particularly common breeds
>like
>appleheads and persians)...You're lucky if you get a kitten who has had its
>shots, and they sure don't give a damn what kind of home it goes to, or
>whether
>it will be used for breeding. But these people continue profiting off their
>"product" -- because there is a consumer demand for it.
>
I don't really consider those purebred animals though. At least from what I've
seen, backyard breeders and kitten mills aren't producing kittens that could be
registered with a legitimate cat fancy. Unfortunately you are right about the
consumer demand--many people will say they want a Bengal or Maine Coon, for
example, and just think about it in terms of getting the best price, rather
than research the breed, go to cat shows to meet legitimate breeders, etc.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:38 PM
(Sherry ) wrote:
> Purebred cats are also
>produced by backyard breeders and kitten mills (particularly common breeds
>like
>appleheads and persians)...You're lucky if you get a kitten who has had its
>shots, and they sure don't give a damn what kind of home it goes to, or
>whether
>it will be used for breeding. But these people continue profiting off their
>"product" -- because there is a consumer demand for it.
>
I don't really consider those purebred animals though. At least from what I've
seen, backyard breeders and kitten mills aren't producing kittens that could be
registered with a legitimate cat fancy. Unfortunately you are right about the
consumer demand--many people will say they want a Bengal or Maine Coon, for
example, and just think about it in terms of getting the best price, rather
than research the breed, go to cat shows to meet legitimate breeders, etc.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:53 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>have come from purebred parents or parentage.
Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed cats,
after all. It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
background.
Some come in with
>pedigrees, as well.
If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
>a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
>>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
>> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in
>a
>> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
>> actually that breed,
>
>People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
>look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
>
>>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
>> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of
>the
>> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
>
>Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
>out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
>breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
>
As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really a
purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they can
trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat may
look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it must
have come from a breeder at some point is false.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 06:53 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>have come from purebred parents or parentage.
Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed cats,
after all. It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
background.
Some come in with
>pedigrees, as well.
If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
>a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
>
>>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
>> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in
>a
>> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
>> actually that breed,
>
>People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
>look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
>
>>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
>> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of
>the
>> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
>
>Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
>out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
>breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
>
As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really a
purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they can
trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat may
look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it must
have come from a breeder at some point is false.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 09:35 PM
wrote:
>Think of it this way. Even if you get rid of purebred cats, using som eone
>else's statistic posted here, you've gotten rid of maybe 25% of the
>problem?
No, not even that. If you magically rid the world of purebred cats tomorrow, it
wouldn't even make a dent in the overpopulation problem. Only three percent of
owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
that's where that figure comes from). Compare that to the 40% of the cat
population that are unowned--strays and ferals, of which very few are neutered.
Magically neuter all these cats tomorrow, or even most of them, and in a short
time you will actually start seeing a deficit of cats--more people wanting cats
than there are cats available.
Or consider the some 16 percent of owned female cats that are allowed to have
one litter before they are spayed.
Other people still have cats that are breeding because they think
>kittens are cute and want a kitten from their cat, because they wanjt to
>teach the joys of life, because they don't want to pay the money to spay,
>becauset hey think neutering is a horrible thing to do to a cat, because
>they insist that causet he cat is indoors it will never get out and have
>an accident, because they just don't care - it's a cat it will do what it
>wants, I just leave food out for it.
One study showed that 94 percent of litters of kittens born each year are
accidental.
>
>I'm saying maybe efforts should be spent more in dealing with these people
>than with the ones who are breeding because tehy do care about their breed
>and want to improve it (who I will admit are pretty rare which is why I
>don't think they are contributing much at all to the problem).
>
>> So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
>> Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
>> occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
>> are NOT mutually exclusive.
>
>Or just maybe you and I disagree about what causes the problem. You know,
>you can agree on one thing but disagree about how to go about it. No,
>you'd rather just insult me I suppose. I'm insulted. Happy?
>
>If it makes you feel better, yes, cats lives are important to me. But I'm
>not going to save them all (and neither are you no matter how much effort
>you put into it). But I am going to say I'll put my efforts where It hink
>they will have teh most impact rather than worrying about something that
>doesn't have as much impact. And, I think in general we'd mostly agree on
>who should not breed, just there would be a few you would disagree because
>you don't want any breeding and I think that if some one is willing to
>take responsibility for every life they bring out, willing to breed for
>health and personality along with standard, willing to screen out people
>who want a pet who shouldn't is not a bad thing.
>
>Basically, I find most people not good breeders. There is one breeder
>(black labs) at my vet that I'd actually endorse. And there's several I
>would totally not endorse.
I know mostly good breeders, but I wouldn't maintain an acquaintance with a bad
one anyway. Besides, mostly I meet and talk to breeders at cat shows, and BYB's
don't show. I wonder if your experience may be more common with dogs, if only
because there are so many more breeders of dogs than of cats.
>
>One I think is a good person but I really don't think she puts in the
>right efforts (pixie bob breeder). I truly do think she cares, she seems
>to care about taking in cats she finds (not breeding them, she only breeds
>her pixie bobs) and kittens left on doorsteps. But I just don't think
>she's a good breeder and I wouldn't recomend her. One totally
>disgusts me because it seems she just wants to breed it if it looks
>Dalmation (she at one point wanted to take in a dog that needed a home
>just to breed him, no worries about what problems he might bring in the
>breed. And I believe she was planning on adopting him to breed, then
>finding a home for him elsewhere. And all the time she has her dogs up
>for adoption saying she doesn't have time for them.. ??!!!!!!!).
>
There are good and bad in everything, I'm sure. I think with less popular
breeds, the breeders are sort of self-policing, and condemn those who are less
than ethical. So I would be more suspicious of those breeders who aren't
members of the breed groups--although I'm sure it depends on who is in the
group.
Yngver
July 28th 03, 09:35 PM
wrote:
>Think of it this way. Even if you get rid of purebred cats, using som eone
>else's statistic posted here, you've gotten rid of maybe 25% of the
>problem?
No, not even that. If you magically rid the world of purebred cats tomorrow, it
wouldn't even make a dent in the overpopulation problem. Only three percent of
owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
that's where that figure comes from). Compare that to the 40% of the cat
population that are unowned--strays and ferals, of which very few are neutered.
Magically neuter all these cats tomorrow, or even most of them, and in a short
time you will actually start seeing a deficit of cats--more people wanting cats
than there are cats available.
Or consider the some 16 percent of owned female cats that are allowed to have
one litter before they are spayed.
Other people still have cats that are breeding because they think
>kittens are cute and want a kitten from their cat, because they wanjt to
>teach the joys of life, because they don't want to pay the money to spay,
>becauset hey think neutering is a horrible thing to do to a cat, because
>they insist that causet he cat is indoors it will never get out and have
>an accident, because they just don't care - it's a cat it will do what it
>wants, I just leave food out for it.
One study showed that 94 percent of litters of kittens born each year are
accidental.
>
>I'm saying maybe efforts should be spent more in dealing with these people
>than with the ones who are breeding because tehy do care about their breed
>and want to improve it (who I will admit are pretty rare which is why I
>don't think they are contributing much at all to the problem).
>
>> So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
>> Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
>> occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
>> are NOT mutually exclusive.
>
>Or just maybe you and I disagree about what causes the problem. You know,
>you can agree on one thing but disagree about how to go about it. No,
>you'd rather just insult me I suppose. I'm insulted. Happy?
>
>If it makes you feel better, yes, cats lives are important to me. But I'm
>not going to save them all (and neither are you no matter how much effort
>you put into it). But I am going to say I'll put my efforts where It hink
>they will have teh most impact rather than worrying about something that
>doesn't have as much impact. And, I think in general we'd mostly agree on
>who should not breed, just there would be a few you would disagree because
>you don't want any breeding and I think that if some one is willing to
>take responsibility for every life they bring out, willing to breed for
>health and personality along with standard, willing to screen out people
>who want a pet who shouldn't is not a bad thing.
>
>Basically, I find most people not good breeders. There is one breeder
>(black labs) at my vet that I'd actually endorse. And there's several I
>would totally not endorse.
I know mostly good breeders, but I wouldn't maintain an acquaintance with a bad
one anyway. Besides, mostly I meet and talk to breeders at cat shows, and BYB's
don't show. I wonder if your experience may be more common with dogs, if only
because there are so many more breeders of dogs than of cats.
>
>One I think is a good person but I really don't think she puts in the
>right efforts (pixie bob breeder). I truly do think she cares, she seems
>to care about taking in cats she finds (not breeding them, she only breeds
>her pixie bobs) and kittens left on doorsteps. But I just don't think
>she's a good breeder and I wouldn't recomend her. One totally
>disgusts me because it seems she just wants to breed it if it looks
>Dalmation (she at one point wanted to take in a dog that needed a home
>just to breed him, no worries about what problems he might bring in the
>breed. And I believe she was planning on adopting him to breed, then
>finding a home for him elsewhere. And all the time she has her dogs up
>for adoption saying she doesn't have time for them.. ??!!!!!!!).
>
There are good and bad in everything, I'm sure. I think with less popular
breeds, the breeders are sort of self-policing, and condemn those who are less
than ethical. So I would be more suspicious of those breeders who aren't
members of the breed groups--although I'm sure it depends on who is in the
group.
Sherry
July 29th 03, 12:30 AM
>
(-L.) wrote:
>
>>If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>>have come from purebred parents or parentage.
>
>Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
>shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
>characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed
>cats,
>after all. It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
>background.
With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought to
our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
everyday moggie.
http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/persian.jpg
I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or possibly
her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what doesn't
matter. I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats. She
wasn't spayed. Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter. The Korat we
got last month was neutered. I don't have a pic of him, but he didn't turrn up
in a litter of barn cats either. Some breeds are unmistakably the product of
deliberate breeding.
Sherry
Sherry
Sherry
July 29th 03, 12:30 AM
>
(-L.) wrote:
>
>>If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
>>have come from purebred parents or parentage.
>
>Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
>shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
>characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed
>cats,
>after all. It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
>background.
With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought to
our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
everyday moggie.
http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/persian.jpg
I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or possibly
her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what doesn't
matter. I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats. She
wasn't spayed. Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter. The Korat we
got last month was neutered. I don't have a pic of him, but he didn't turrn up
in a litter of barn cats either. Some breeds are unmistakably the product of
deliberate breeding.
Sherry
Sherry
Sherry
July 29th 03, 01:49 AM
.. Only three percent
>of
>owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
>that's where that figure comes from).
That sounds really low to me, three percent. Could you share your source for
that info.?
Sherry
July 29th 03, 01:49 AM
.. Only three percent
>of
>owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
>that's where that figure comes from).
That sounds really low to me, three percent. Could you share your source for
that info.?
-L.
July 29th 03, 03:01 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >have come from purebred parents or parentage.
>
> Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
> shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
> characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed cats,
> after all.
If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
purebred. Plain and simple.
>It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
> background.
>
> Some come in with
> >pedigrees, as well.
>
> If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
>
> If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >
> >>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
> >> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in
> a
> >> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
> >> actually that breed,
> >
> >People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
> >look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
>
> I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
> >
> >>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
> >> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of
> the
> >> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
> >
> >Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
> >out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
> >breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
> >
> As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
> feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.
> That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
> example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really a
> purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they can
> trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat >may
> look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.
Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
the prentious assholes that we already know they are.
>
> So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it must
> have come from a breeder at some point is false.
Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:
You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.
Why do breeders continue this sham, then?
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 03:01 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >If it looks, acts, walks and smells purebred, it's purebred enough to
> >have come from purebred parents or parentage.
>
> Not in my opinion. Plenty of cats may look like a Siamese or a British
> shorthair, but they are not purebred and did not come from any breeder. Some
> characteristics of a particular breed can arise naturally in mixed breed cats,
> after all.
If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
purebred. Plain and simple.
>It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
> background.
>
> Some come in with
> >pedigrees, as well.
>
> If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
>
> If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >
> >>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
> >> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type in
> a
> >> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed are
> >> actually that breed,
> >
> >People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
> >look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
>
> I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
> >
> >>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
> >> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most of
> the
> >> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
> >
> >Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
> >out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
> >breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
> >
> As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
> feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.
> That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
> example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really a
> purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they can
> trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat >may
> look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.
Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
the prentious assholes that we already know they are.
>
> So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it must
> have come from a breeder at some point is false.
Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:
You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.
Why do breeders continue this sham, then?
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 03:21 AM
wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> >
> > You're kidding, right? Have you EVER read this NG????? Good God, your
> > ignorance is astounding. I have to go to work (gotta support my 25
> > rescued cats somehow) but here, let me help you by giving you just a few
> > examples of some of the things I do:
>
> *sigh* I'm sorry, whtever way you took it, I didn't mean it that way. I
> wasn't saying you don't help cats. I was saying that I think fi you want
> to help solve the problem, your efforts are better spent worrying about
> other things than purebred cats.
The point is, every new cat put into the system perpetuates the
problem. Yes, stopping the major problem - random bred cats - is
important, but as with all problems, the solution is multi-fold.
>
<snip>
>
> I'm saying maybe efforts should be spent more in dealing with these people
> than with the ones who are breeding because tehy do care about their breed
> and want to improve it (who I will admit are pretty rare which is why I
> don't think they are contributing much at all to the problem).
The animals and papers registered by the BYBs are just as valid in the
eyes of the registry group, as those registered by the top breeders.
The problem is huge, and every person who produces an animal
contributes to it.
>
> > So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
> > Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
> > occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
> > are NOT mutually exclusive.
>
> Or just maybe you and I disagree about what causes the problem.
EVERY cat put into the system contributes to the problem.
>You know,
> you can agree on one thing but disagree about how to go about it. No,
> you'd rather just insult me I suppose. I'm insulted. Happy?
>
> If it makes you feel better, yes, cats lives are important to me. But I'm
> not going to save them all (and neither are you no matter how much effort
> you put into it). But I am going to say I'll put my efforts where It hink
> they will have teh most impact rather than worrying about something that
> doesn't have as much impact.
Well, you should worry about it because purebred cats and dogs and
purbred mixes are being killed in shelters right along with the
moggies/mutts.
>And, I think in general we'd mostly agree on
> who should not breed, just there would be a few you would disagree because
> you don't want any breeding and I think that if some one is willing to
> take responsibility for every life they bring out, willing to breed for
> health and personality along with standard, willing to screen out people
> who want a pet who shouldn't is not a bad thing.
You can only say that if you also condone killing of purebreds in
shelters.
>
> Basically, I find most people not good breeders. There is one breeder
> (black labs) at my vet that I'd actually endorse.
While other black labs wait on death row...
Is their life really less valuable because they don't have a "special"
paper "proving" so to HUMANS?
>And there's several I
> would totally not endorse.
>
> One I think is a good person but I really don't think she puts in the
> right efforts (pixie bob breeder). I truly do think she cares, she seems
> to care about taking in cats she finds (not breeding them, she only breeds
> her pixie bobs) and kittens left on doorsteps. But I just don't think
> she's a good breeder and I wouldn't recomend her. One totally
> disgusts me because it seems she just wants to breed it if it looks
> Dalmation (she at one point wanted to take in a dog that needed a home
> just to breed him, no worries about what problems he might bring in the
> breed. And I believe she was planning on adopting him to breed, then
> finding a home for him elsewhere. And all the time she has her dogs up
> for adoption saying she doesn't have time for them.. ??!!!!!!!
If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
you deem "unacceptable" - not to mention that they perpetuate the
myth that breeding is desirable endeavor - that purebred animals are
in some way "superior" to others.
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 03:21 AM
wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> >
> > You're kidding, right? Have you EVER read this NG????? Good God, your
> > ignorance is astounding. I have to go to work (gotta support my 25
> > rescued cats somehow) but here, let me help you by giving you just a few
> > examples of some of the things I do:
>
> *sigh* I'm sorry, whtever way you took it, I didn't mean it that way. I
> wasn't saying you don't help cats. I was saying that I think fi you want
> to help solve the problem, your efforts are better spent worrying about
> other things than purebred cats.
The point is, every new cat put into the system perpetuates the
problem. Yes, stopping the major problem - random bred cats - is
important, but as with all problems, the solution is multi-fold.
>
<snip>
>
> I'm saying maybe efforts should be spent more in dealing with these people
> than with the ones who are breeding because tehy do care about their breed
> and want to improve it (who I will admit are pretty rare which is why I
> don't think they are contributing much at all to the problem).
The animals and papers registered by the BYBs are just as valid in the
eyes of the registry group, as those registered by the top breeders.
The problem is huge, and every person who produces an animal
contributes to it.
>
> > So you confirm that the lives of those cats are'nt important to you.
> > Nope, they just don't matter. How sad is that. Apparently it hasn't
> > occured to you that saving lives and doing the other things you listed
> > are NOT mutually exclusive.
>
> Or just maybe you and I disagree about what causes the problem.
EVERY cat put into the system contributes to the problem.
>You know,
> you can agree on one thing but disagree about how to go about it. No,
> you'd rather just insult me I suppose. I'm insulted. Happy?
>
> If it makes you feel better, yes, cats lives are important to me. But I'm
> not going to save them all (and neither are you no matter how much effort
> you put into it). But I am going to say I'll put my efforts where It hink
> they will have teh most impact rather than worrying about something that
> doesn't have as much impact.
Well, you should worry about it because purebred cats and dogs and
purbred mixes are being killed in shelters right along with the
moggies/mutts.
>And, I think in general we'd mostly agree on
> who should not breed, just there would be a few you would disagree because
> you don't want any breeding and I think that if some one is willing to
> take responsibility for every life they bring out, willing to breed for
> health and personality along with standard, willing to screen out people
> who want a pet who shouldn't is not a bad thing.
You can only say that if you also condone killing of purebreds in
shelters.
>
> Basically, I find most people not good breeders. There is one breeder
> (black labs) at my vet that I'd actually endorse.
While other black labs wait on death row...
Is their life really less valuable because they don't have a "special"
paper "proving" so to HUMANS?
>And there's several I
> would totally not endorse.
>
> One I think is a good person but I really don't think she puts in the
> right efforts (pixie bob breeder). I truly do think she cares, she seems
> to care about taking in cats she finds (not breeding them, she only breeds
> her pixie bobs) and kittens left on doorsteps. But I just don't think
> she's a good breeder and I wouldn't recomend her. One totally
> disgusts me because it seems she just wants to breed it if it looks
> Dalmation (she at one point wanted to take in a dog that needed a home
> just to breed him, no worries about what problems he might bring in the
> breed. And I believe she was planning on adopting him to breed, then
> finding a home for him elsewhere. And all the time she has her dogs up
> for adoption saying she doesn't have time for them.. ??!!!!!!!
If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
you deem "unacceptable" - not to mention that they perpetuate the
myth that breeding is desirable endeavor - that purebred animals are
in some way "superior" to others.
-L.
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 06:40 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
|> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
|> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.
Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 06:40 AM
In >,
(Yngver) wrote:
|> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
|> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.
Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?
-L. > wrote:
> If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
but this is such bull.
I don't condone breeders who are trying to just make money, breeding as
much as they possibly can (in fact, if I were to look for a purebreed
again, I'd look for a breeder who wasn't constantly breeding as some one
who cares about his/her dogs isn't going to put their dog through being
bred as much as she possibly can be bred), I don't condone breedres who
just give their pets to whoever has the money (I like to see tat they care
about where their pets are going), I don't condone breeders who just breed
anything (not looking for health tests, not making sure that the combo is
not going to cause health problems, not caring about the temperments they
put in). I don't condone breeders who don't try to make a good match (a
good breeder isn't going to just match you wtih the one you find cute..
they are going to knowt he personality of the animals they breed and match
you with one that has a personality that will work with what you are
looking for. They aren't going to put you with one that has a personality
they don't think is going to work well with you).
Just cause the AKC sadly gives papers to anyone doesn't mean I condone
every single breeder who gets papers!!! That's why I would tell you that
papers mean very little if you want to find a good breeder and it takes a
****load mor than just having the papers to make a good breeder. Puppy
mills can get papers for their animals... papers mean very very little
except they are putting the minimal effort to at least breed animals that
have papers (which with how easy it is to get papers says nothing about
those animals and whether they will pass good genes... good genes meaning
health and temperment... to their offspring).
Now quit using absurd arguements. Just cause I don't condemn all breeding
doesn't mean I condone it all either!!!!!!
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
-L. > wrote:
> If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
but this is such bull.
I don't condone breeders who are trying to just make money, breeding as
much as they possibly can (in fact, if I were to look for a purebreed
again, I'd look for a breeder who wasn't constantly breeding as some one
who cares about his/her dogs isn't going to put their dog through being
bred as much as she possibly can be bred), I don't condone breedres who
just give their pets to whoever has the money (I like to see tat they care
about where their pets are going), I don't condone breeders who just breed
anything (not looking for health tests, not making sure that the combo is
not going to cause health problems, not caring about the temperments they
put in). I don't condone breeders who don't try to make a good match (a
good breeder isn't going to just match you wtih the one you find cute..
they are going to knowt he personality of the animals they breed and match
you with one that has a personality that will work with what you are
looking for. They aren't going to put you with one that has a personality
they don't think is going to work well with you).
Just cause the AKC sadly gives papers to anyone doesn't mean I condone
every single breeder who gets papers!!! That's why I would tell you that
papers mean very little if you want to find a good breeder and it takes a
****load mor than just having the papers to make a good breeder. Puppy
mills can get papers for their animals... papers mean very very little
except they are putting the minimal effort to at least breed animals that
have papers (which with how easy it is to get papers says nothing about
those animals and whether they will pass good genes... good genes meaning
health and temperment... to their offspring).
Now quit using absurd arguements. Just cause I don't condemn all breeding
doesn't mean I condone it all either!!!!!!
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 07:58 AM
In >, wrote:
| -L. > wrote:
| > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
| > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
|
| You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
| but this is such bull.
On the contrary, it's dead on. Consider what Orchid wrote earlier:
: We need to pound into peoples' thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong
: commitment*, and that altering is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
Well, how does a volunteer go about convincing Mr ThickSkull BYB that he
should neuter his cats? If he points to the registered cattery next
door and says "Hey, why aren't you bugging them too?", what should the
volunteer say?
"Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
Um, er, right. Oh my, really convincing argument there. Not.
Endorse breeders in any form, and you have lost the argument to neuter
*any* cat. Unless, of course, all you really want to argue is that
purebreds are somehow innately "superior", and therefore inherently more
"worthy".
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 07:58 AM
In >, wrote:
| -L. > wrote:
| > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
| > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
|
| You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
| but this is such bull.
On the contrary, it's dead on. Consider what Orchid wrote earlier:
: We need to pound into peoples' thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong
: commitment*, and that altering is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
Well, how does a volunteer go about convincing Mr ThickSkull BYB that he
should neuter his cats? If he points to the registered cattery next
door and says "Hey, why aren't you bugging them too?", what should the
volunteer say?
"Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
Um, er, right. Oh my, really convincing argument there. Not.
Endorse breeders in any form, and you have lost the argument to neuter
*any* cat. Unless, of course, all you really want to argue is that
purebreds are somehow innately "superior", and therefore inherently more
"worthy".
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:15 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
>
> You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
> but this is such bull.
<snipola>
>That's why I would tell you that
> papers mean very little if you want to find a good breeder and it takes a
> ****load mor than just having the papers to make a good breeder.
Then why support breeding at all? Afterall, the "papers" are the
foundation of the breeding scam. Without papers, these people
consider these animals mutts.
Puppy
> mills can get papers for their animals... papers mean very very little
> except they are putting the minimal effort to at least breed animals that
> have papers (which with how easy it is to get papers says nothing about
> those animals and whether they will pass good genes... good genes meaning
> health and temperment... to their offspring).
Again, then why support "pure" breeding at all? You yourself have
proven or stated that the papers don't mean ****.
> Now quit using absurd arguements. Just cause I don't condemn all breeding
> doesn't mean I condone it all either!!!!!!
You condone it defacto.
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:15 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
>
> You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
> but this is such bull.
<snipola>
>That's why I would tell you that
> papers mean very little if you want to find a good breeder and it takes a
> ****load mor than just having the papers to make a good breeder.
Then why support breeding at all? Afterall, the "papers" are the
foundation of the breeding scam. Without papers, these people
consider these animals mutts.
Puppy
> mills can get papers for their animals... papers mean very very little
> except they are putting the minimal effort to at least breed animals that
> have papers (which with how easy it is to get papers says nothing about
> those animals and whether they will pass good genes... good genes meaning
> health and temperment... to their offspring).
Again, then why support "pure" breeding at all? You yourself have
proven or stated that the papers don't mean ****.
> Now quit using absurd arguements. Just cause I don't condemn all breeding
> doesn't mean I condone it all either!!!!!!
You condone it defacto.
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:17 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, wrote:
> | -L. > wrote:
>
> | > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> | > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
> |
> | You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
> | but this is such bull.
>
> On the contrary, it's dead on. Consider what Orchid wrote earlier:
>
> : We need to pound into peoples' thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong
> : commitment*, and that altering is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
>
> Well, how does a volunteer go about convincing Mr ThickSkull BYB that he
> should neuter his cats? If he points to the registered cattery next
> door and says "Hey, why aren't you bugging them too?", what should the
> volunteer say?
>
> "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
>
> Um, er, right. Oh my, really convincing argument there. Not.
>
> Endorse breeders in any form, and you have lost the argument to neuter
> *any* cat. Unless, of course, all you really want to argue is that
> purebreds are somehow innately "superior", and therefore inherently more
> "worthy".
Apparently only *some* purebreds are "worthy".
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:17 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, wrote:
> | -L. > wrote:
>
> | > If you endorse breeders in any form, you endorse them all because
> | > their papers are validated by the registry in the same manner as those
> |
> | You know, I'm sick of arguing this, and wa just going to ignore this post,
> | but this is such bull.
>
> On the contrary, it's dead on. Consider what Orchid wrote earlier:
>
> : We need to pound into peoples' thick skulls that pets are a *lifelong
> : commitment*, and that altering is not only not cruel, but is beneficial.
>
> Well, how does a volunteer go about convincing Mr ThickSkull BYB that he
> should neuter his cats? If he points to the registered cattery next
> door and says "Hey, why aren't you bugging them too?", what should the
> volunteer say?
>
> "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
>
> Um, er, right. Oh my, really convincing argument there. Not.
>
> Endorse breeders in any form, and you have lost the argument to neuter
> *any* cat. Unless, of course, all you really want to argue is that
> purebreds are somehow innately "superior", and therefore inherently more
> "worthy".
Apparently only *some* purebreds are "worthy".
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:24 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> >cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
> >
>
> It's not a myth with responsible breeders. I mentioned before the Birman >rescue
> group, because I have a friend who works with them. The first thing they do
> with any report of a Birman at a shelter is to try to trace it back to the
> breeder, and the breeder will then take the cat back. So any cat that had
> legitimate pedigree papers would be taken back by the breeder, because the
> breeder's cattery would be listed on the pedigree and thus could be located.
And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
again, it was too late.
Retun clauses do not insure ethics.
-L.
-L.
July 29th 03, 10:24 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> >cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
> >
>
> It's not a myth with responsible breeders. I mentioned before the Birman >rescue
> group, because I have a friend who works with them. The first thing they do
> with any report of a Birman at a shelter is to try to trace it back to the
> breeder, and the breeder will then take the cat back. So any cat that had
> legitimate pedigree papers would be taken back by the breeder, because the
> breeder's cattery would be listed on the pedigree and thus could be located.
And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
again, it was too late.
Retun clauses do not insure ethics.
-L.
kaeli
July 29th 03, 02:48 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> . Only three percent
> >of
> >owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
> >that's where that figure comes from).
>
> That sounds really low to me, three percent. Could you share your source for
> that info.?
>
Varying info based on estimates and studies. It makes a difference
whether it is talking world-wide or regional (US).
No stat is higher than 10 percent.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat
Less than one percent of the total feline population are purebred cats -
the remaining 99% have mixed ancestry and are generally known as
moggies, or more properly domestic longhairs and domestic shorthairs.
http://www.fanciers.com/npa/sdresults.html
Of the owned SDC cats, 5.6% are purebred with registration papers, while
another 3.5% are claimed to be purebred but do not have registration
papers.
http://catatomic.com/article.html
Most people's cats are not purebred, in fact, 90 percent of pet cats in
North America--whatever color or pattern they may be--are domestic short
hairs.
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=companionlines_cats4
Still, less than 10 percent of the world's cats are purebred.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/00/1.27.00/Feline_Health.html
Readers who decide they are cat-ready -- but can't decide which breed to
choose -- learn the advantages of domestic shorthairs, such as
healthfulness ("a broad genetic background that makes hereditary
problems relatively unlikely") and price ("usually inexpensive, or even
free") as well as the attributes and disadvantages of the other 5
percent of cats, the purebreds.
--
-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------
kaeli
July 29th 03, 02:48 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> . Only three percent
> >of
> >owned cats in the U.S. are purebred (but 25% of dogs are purebred--perhaps
> >that's where that figure comes from).
>
> That sounds really low to me, three percent. Could you share your source for
> that info.?
>
Varying info based on estimates and studies. It makes a difference
whether it is talking world-wide or regional (US).
No stat is higher than 10 percent.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat
Less than one percent of the total feline population are purebred cats -
the remaining 99% have mixed ancestry and are generally known as
moggies, or more properly domestic longhairs and domestic shorthairs.
http://www.fanciers.com/npa/sdresults.html
Of the owned SDC cats, 5.6% are purebred with registration papers, while
another 3.5% are claimed to be purebred but do not have registration
papers.
http://catatomic.com/article.html
Most people's cats are not purebred, in fact, 90 percent of pet cats in
North America--whatever color or pattern they may be--are domestic short
hairs.
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=companionlines_cats4
Still, less than 10 percent of the world's cats are purebred.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/00/1.27.00/Feline_Health.html
Readers who decide they are cat-ready -- but can't decide which breed to
choose -- learn the advantages of domestic shorthairs, such as
healthfulness ("a broad genetic background that makes hereditary
problems relatively unlikely") and price ("usually inexpensive, or even
free") as well as the attributes and disadvantages of the other 5
percent of cats, the purebreds.
--
-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------
Sherry
July 29th 03, 03:15 PM
>> I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
>> purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
>possibly
>> her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
>doesn't
>> matter. I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats.
>She
>> wasn't spayed. Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter
>
>Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
>Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
That, and I think also they're one of the most common cats bred to sell. Look
at the newspaper. Under "pets for sale" they always seem to be Persian or
Siamese or Himmie. They also seem to be the breed of choice for BYB's. Around
here, anyway, Scottish Folds, Sphynx, etc. are rarely advertised. (BUt of
course you can "order" one out of the back of Cat Fancy magazine and have it
shipped to your door)
>As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
>of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
We get Cockers and Dalmations. Both of tthem people get for their kids, when
they are both too high strung and active for little children. They start
jumping on the kid and knocking them down, and they dump them on us.
Sherry
>
>-L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sherry
July 29th 03, 03:15 PM
>> I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
>> purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
>possibly
>> her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
>doesn't
>> matter. I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats.
>She
>> wasn't spayed. Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter
>
>Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
>Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
That, and I think also they're one of the most common cats bred to sell. Look
at the newspaper. Under "pets for sale" they always seem to be Persian or
Siamese or Himmie. They also seem to be the breed of choice for BYB's. Around
here, anyway, Scottish Folds, Sphynx, etc. are rarely advertised. (BUt of
course you can "order" one out of the back of Cat Fancy magazine and have it
shipped to your door)
>As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
>of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
We get Cockers and Dalmations. Both of tthem people get for their kids, when
they are both too high strung and active for little children. They start
jumping on the kid and knocking them down, and they dump them on us.
Sherry
>
>-L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Arjun Ray > wrote:
>
> "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
They are willing to get health tests done on the cat to make sure it's not
going to pass down some sort of genetic disease. They are willing to go
out of their way to breed him to another cat that won't pass a genetic
disease too and that the two cats will produce a litter that will improve
the breed. They are willing to spend the time to filter out who will be a
good home vs. a bad home. They are willing to pay all the vet bills
including stuff if something goes wrong. They aren't trying to breed as
much as they can. They realize that just cause their cat is cute and
lovable doesn't mean it has the qualities to be bred.
Unless you are willing to do that, neuter/spay your cat!
You are way oversimplifying. And yes, some peopel aren 't going to listen
to that. But some people aren't going to listen to you shouldn't breed
period either! Should we then just not argue that people shouldn't breed
cause some people won't listen?
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Arjun Ray > wrote:
>
> "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
They are willing to get health tests done on the cat to make sure it's not
going to pass down some sort of genetic disease. They are willing to go
out of their way to breed him to another cat that won't pass a genetic
disease too and that the two cats will produce a litter that will improve
the breed. They are willing to spend the time to filter out who will be a
good home vs. a bad home. They are willing to pay all the vet bills
including stuff if something goes wrong. They aren't trying to breed as
much as they can. They realize that just cause their cat is cute and
lovable doesn't mean it has the qualities to be bred.
Unless you are willing to do that, neuter/spay your cat!
You are way oversimplifying. And yes, some peopel aren 't going to listen
to that. But some people aren't going to listen to you shouldn't breed
period either! Should we then just not argue that people shouldn't breed
cause some people won't listen?
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
-L. > wrote:
> Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
> Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
> As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
> of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
the other breeds.
Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
-L. > wrote:
> Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
> Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
> As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
> of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
the other breeds.
Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Sherry > wrote:
>
> We get Cockers and Dalmations. Both of tthem people get for their kids, when
> they are both too high strung and active for little children. They start
> jumping on the kid and knocking them down, and they dump them on us.
I've heard Huskies have the highest return rate (not amount of returns,
but rate meaning amount returned comopared to how many there are). Because
they are destructive if not paid attention to (they don't do well left
alone at all), they tend to escape fences and run and not come back, they
cannot be left off leash, they dig (pictures of my roommate's coworkers'
backyard looks like a moonscape so many holes.. and the dog has chewed up
the walls of the house too), they are high energy and you really need to
do a lot to tire them out (think a dog bred to run and pull stuff all
day).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Sherry > wrote:
>
> We get Cockers and Dalmations. Both of tthem people get for their kids, when
> they are both too high strung and active for little children. They start
> jumping on the kid and knocking them down, and they dump them on us.
I've heard Huskies have the highest return rate (not amount of returns,
but rate meaning amount returned comopared to how many there are). Because
they are destructive if not paid attention to (they don't do well left
alone at all), they tend to escape fences and run and not come back, they
cannot be left off leash, they dig (pictures of my roommate's coworkers'
backyard looks like a moonscape so many holes.. and the dog has chewed up
the walls of the house too), they are high energy and you really need to
do a lot to tire them out (think a dog bred to run and pull stuff all
day).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 06:43 PM
In >, wrote:
| Arjun Ray > wrote:
| >
| > "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
|
| Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
| for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
Rescuers do this too.
| They are willing to get health tests done on the cat
Rescuers do this too.
| to make sure it's not going to pass down some sort of genetic disease.
Rescuers mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
| They are willing to go out of their way to breed him to another cat
| that won't pass a genetic disease too and that the two cats will produce
| a litter that will improve the breed.
Improve what breed? Inbreeding is a negative-sum game. Are "failures"
culled? No? Why not?
Funny how "improving the breed" is always used to deflect attention away
from overpopulation.
| They are willing to spend the time to filter out who will be a good
| home vs. a bad home.
Rescuers do this too.
| They are willing to pay all the vet bills including stuff if something
| goes wrong.
Rescuers do this too. Oh, you mean "goes wrong" genetically? Rescuers
mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
| They aren't trying to breed as much as they can. They realize that just
| cause their cat is cute and lovable doesn't mean it has the qualities
| to be bred.
There are *no* "qualities" making a cat "breedable".
| Unless you are willing to do that, neuter/spay your cat!
Um no. This is not about excuses.
| You are way oversimplifying.
Nope. "They're.. special. You're... not" is the entirety of the
excuses game.
| Should we then just not argue that people shouldn't breed cause some
| people won't listen?
Huh?
Arjun Ray
July 29th 03, 06:43 PM
In >, wrote:
| Arjun Ray > wrote:
| >
| > "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
|
| Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
| for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
Rescuers do this too.
| They are willing to get health tests done on the cat
Rescuers do this too.
| to make sure it's not going to pass down some sort of genetic disease.
Rescuers mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
| They are willing to go out of their way to breed him to another cat
| that won't pass a genetic disease too and that the two cats will produce
| a litter that will improve the breed.
Improve what breed? Inbreeding is a negative-sum game. Are "failures"
culled? No? Why not?
Funny how "improving the breed" is always used to deflect attention away
from overpopulation.
| They are willing to spend the time to filter out who will be a good
| home vs. a bad home.
Rescuers do this too.
| They are willing to pay all the vet bills including stuff if something
| goes wrong.
Rescuers do this too. Oh, you mean "goes wrong" genetically? Rescuers
mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
| They aren't trying to breed as much as they can. They realize that just
| cause their cat is cute and lovable doesn't mean it has the qualities
| to be bred.
There are *no* "qualities" making a cat "breedable".
| Unless you are willing to do that, neuter/spay your cat!
Um no. This is not about excuses.
| You are way oversimplifying.
Nope. "They're.. special. You're... not" is the entirety of the
excuses game.
| Should we then just not argue that people shouldn't breed cause some
| people won't listen?
Huh?
Yngver
July 29th 03, 07:48 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
Yngver
July 29th 03, 07:48 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
Sherry
July 29th 03, 08:58 PM
> (-L.) wrote:
>
>>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
>And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
>opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (-L.) wrote:
>
>>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
>And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
>opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
I've never encountered one that didn't cage the males. What exactly *does* a
"responsible breeder" do with the studs? I daresay they don't roam the house.
Sherry
Sherry
July 29th 03, 08:58 PM
> (-L.) wrote:
>
>>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
>And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
>opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (-L.) wrote:
>
>>**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
>>I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
>And yet I've never encountered one that did, other than a BYB. No wonder your
>opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
I've never encountered one that didn't cage the males. What exactly *does* a
"responsible breeder" do with the studs? I daresay they don't roam the house.
Sherry
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:12 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
> >I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
> And yet I've never encountered one that did,
Nice smell of stud all over the house. Loverly.
>other than a BYB. No wonder your
> opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
Actually the ****ty Birman breeder I referenced is supposedly "well
respected" in the Birman circles. Heh. All the vets have a different
opinion of her.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:12 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
> >I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.
>
> And yet I've never encountered one that did,
Nice smell of stud all over the house. Loverly.
>other than a BYB. No wonder your
> opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
Actually the ****ty Birman breeder I referenced is supposedly "well
respected" in the Birman circles. Heh. All the vets have a different
opinion of her.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:15 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
> >shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
> >breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
> >mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
> >took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
> >respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
> >directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
> >again, it was too late.
> >
> >Retun clauses do not insure ethics.
> >
> Of course not. But did the shelter contact Birman rescue? The Birman Fanciers
> Association would certainly condemn any breeder that refused to take back a
> cat, so I assume they weren't notified.
Um, you assume wrong, then. Some got all over the case of the
breeder, but it didn't make her move any faster. This woman is such a
fing bitch, most people avoid her at all costs. Other breeeders
supported her. The cat ended up being placed in a new home by
volunteer rescuers through a network of people who were notified. Not
one breeder was instrumental in making it happen, although some were
sympathetic to the plight of the animal.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:15 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
> >shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
> >breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
> >mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
> >took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
> >respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
> >directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
> >again, it was too late.
> >
> >Retun clauses do not insure ethics.
> >
> Of course not. But did the shelter contact Birman rescue? The Birman Fanciers
> Association would certainly condemn any breeder that refused to take back a
> cat, so I assume they weren't notified.
Um, you assume wrong, then. Some got all over the case of the
breeder, but it didn't make her move any faster. This woman is such a
fing bitch, most people avoid her at all costs. Other breeeders
supported her. The cat ended up being placed in a new home by
volunteer rescuers through a network of people who were notified. Not
one breeder was instrumental in making it happen, although some were
sympathetic to the plight of the animal.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:38 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
> >purebred. Plain and simple.
>
> No, it isn't. But the average person hasn't studied breed standards, has
> he/she?
The "average" shelter intake personnel, along with most every person
doing rescue I've ever encountered is able to identify breeds, based
on standards.
>My point is that to the uneducated eye, many a cat that comes into a
> shelter may appear to be purebred, but is not.
You paint all shelter workers as uneducated. I see. These people see
more purebred animals in a week than the average person sees in a
lifetime.
> >
> >
> >>It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
> >> background.
> >>
> >> Some come in with
> >> >pedigrees, as well.
> >>
> >> If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
> >>
> >> If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >> >a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >> >
> >> >>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
> >> >> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type
> in
> a
> >> >> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed
> are
> >> >> actually that breed,
> >> >
> >> >People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
> >> >look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
> >>
> >> I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
> >> >
> >> >>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
> >> >> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most
> of
> the
> >> >> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
> >> >
> >> >Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
> >> >out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
> >> >breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
> >> >
> >> As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
> >> feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
> >
> >Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.
>
> Really? But some of the cats listed as Birmans on petfinders.org don't even
> have white feet.
Why do you keep harping on petfinders.org? They aren't repersentative
of shelters, ya know.
>And why does one see so many grey cats called Russian Blues,
> even if the body type is nothing like a Russian Blue?
Because these people are labeleing the cat as a breed to get people
interested in it - we have been over this before. It's not a practice
I believe in, but many rescue orgs do it. Some may be so stupid they
think the animals are purebred, but IME, most people doing rescue are
well educated on most breed standards - enough to be able to pick out
those that are probably mixes from those that clearly are not. The
point is moot, though, if the animal is so close to breed standard
that it takes a "judge" to determine if it is or not - the animal is
clearly of purebred linage.
> >
> >> That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
> >> example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really
> a
> >> purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they
> can
> >> trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat
> >>may
> >> look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
> >
> >Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
> >breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
> >breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
> >interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
> >regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.
>
> That's exactly what I said, or meant to say. They have CFA judges and
> experienced breeders who are able to tell whether or not the cat is purebred,
> if the cat doesn't have papers. If you have the papers, the cattery is listed
> right there so you can just call them. And/or you put out an alert on the
> Birman Fanciers list, to ask if anyone has info on this cat, or recognizes its
> lineage.
Most shelters work with breed rescue and often times call them in on
cats that are questionable.
>
> >
> >Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
> >the prentious assholes that we already know they are.
>
> Whatever.
> >
> >>
> >> So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it
> must
> >> have come from a breeder at some point is false.
> >
> >Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:
> >
> >You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
> >good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
> >or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.
>
> And exactly how many of these exquisite examples of the breed are you getting
> in?
More than you are aware of, apparently. All of the 15-25% stat I
quoted were clearly purebred, or close enough that the point was moot.
>Who is deciding they are such perfect examples of the breed? The
shelter
> workers?
Often. Other times, breed rescue. Breed identification isn't
neuroscience.
>
> I couldn't tell a good example of an Aby, for example, because I don't know
> anything about them,
Are you able to tell if one is purebred? It isn't hard.
> but someone else here obviously does, and could say that
> the cat pictured probably was not purebred.
As I did.
> >
> >Why do breeders continue this sham, then?
> >
> I don't know what sham you are referring to. The breeders I know don't fit >your
> pre-conception,
It's not a pre-conception. It is an opinion formed after years of
cleaning up the messes they have created. But I'm sure you aren't
interested in those stories.
>but perhaps I've just been lucky in who I strike up a
> conversation with at cat shows. You don't find BYBs and kitten mill producers
> at the shows.
Your ignorance is astounding. Some of the ****tiest breeders are
those who think highly of themselves, are well-regarded by other
breeders in their area, and have the lemmings in the breeder world
following them. Having a cat with titles means nothing in terms of
animal welfare.
But like I said, you're probably not interested in hearing about those
examples.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:38 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> >If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
> >purebred. Plain and simple.
>
> No, it isn't. But the average person hasn't studied breed standards, has
> he/she?
The "average" shelter intake personnel, along with most every person
doing rescue I've ever encountered is able to identify breeds, based
on standards.
>My point is that to the uneducated eye, many a cat that comes into a
> shelter may appear to be purebred, but is not.
You paint all shelter workers as uneducated. I see. These people see
more purebred animals in a week than the average person sees in a
lifetime.
> >
> >
> >>It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
> >> background.
> >>
> >> Some come in with
> >> >pedigrees, as well.
> >>
> >> If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.
> >>
> >> If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
> >> >a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.
> >> >
> >> >>I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
> >> >> how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type
> in
> a
> >> >> certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed
> are
> >> >> actually that breed,
> >> >
> >> >People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
> >> >look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.
> >>
> >> I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.
> >> >
> >> >>and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a >friend
> >> >> who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most
> of
> the
> >> >> time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.
> >> >
> >> >Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
> >> >out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
> >> >breeder friends are contributing to the problem.
> >> >
> >> As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
> >> feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.
> >
> >Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.
>
> Really? But some of the cats listed as Birmans on petfinders.org don't even
> have white feet.
Why do you keep harping on petfinders.org? They aren't repersentative
of shelters, ya know.
>And why does one see so many grey cats called Russian Blues,
> even if the body type is nothing like a Russian Blue?
Because these people are labeleing the cat as a breed to get people
interested in it - we have been over this before. It's not a practice
I believe in, but many rescue orgs do it. Some may be so stupid they
think the animals are purebred, but IME, most people doing rescue are
well educated on most breed standards - enough to be able to pick out
those that are probably mixes from those that clearly are not. The
point is moot, though, if the animal is so close to breed standard
that it takes a "judge" to determine if it is or not - the animal is
clearly of purebred linage.
> >
> >> That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
> >> example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really
> a
> >> purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they
> can
> >> trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat
> >>may
> >> look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.
> >
> >Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
> >breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
> >breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
> >interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
> >regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.
>
> That's exactly what I said, or meant to say. They have CFA judges and
> experienced breeders who are able to tell whether or not the cat is purebred,
> if the cat doesn't have papers. If you have the papers, the cattery is listed
> right there so you can just call them. And/or you put out an alert on the
> Birman Fanciers list, to ask if anyone has info on this cat, or recognizes its
> lineage.
Most shelters work with breed rescue and often times call them in on
cats that are questionable.
>
> >
> >Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
> >the prentious assholes that we already know they are.
>
> Whatever.
> >
> >>
> >> So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it
> must
> >> have come from a breeder at some point is false.
> >
> >Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:
> >
> >You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
> >good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
> >or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.
>
> And exactly how many of these exquisite examples of the breed are you getting
> in?
More than you are aware of, apparently. All of the 15-25% stat I
quoted were clearly purebred, or close enough that the point was moot.
>Who is deciding they are such perfect examples of the breed? The
shelter
> workers?
Often. Other times, breed rescue. Breed identification isn't
neuroscience.
>
> I couldn't tell a good example of an Aby, for example, because I don't know
> anything about them,
Are you able to tell if one is purebred? It isn't hard.
> but someone else here obviously does, and could say that
> the cat pictured probably was not purebred.
As I did.
> >
> >Why do breeders continue this sham, then?
> >
> I don't know what sham you are referring to. The breeders I know don't fit >your
> pre-conception,
It's not a pre-conception. It is an opinion formed after years of
cleaning up the messes they have created. But I'm sure you aren't
interested in those stories.
>but perhaps I've just been lucky in who I strike up a
> conversation with at cat shows. You don't find BYBs and kitten mill producers
> at the shows.
Your ignorance is astounding. Some of the ****tiest breeders are
those who think highly of themselves, are well-regarded by other
breeders in their area, and have the lemmings in the breeder world
following them. Having a cat with titles means nothing in terms of
animal welfare.
But like I said, you're probably not interested in hearing about those
examples.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:46 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 29 Jul 2003 00:40:20 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> wrote:
>
> >In >,
> >(Yngver) wrote:
> >
> >|> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> >|> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
>
> >| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.
> >
> >Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
> >an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?
>
> Most often, it's because the owners don't want to admit
> 'failure'. I know a breeder who had a cat of her breeding go into a
> shelter -- she didn't find out until the people that adopted the cat
> contacted her. She had emails saved from the original owners telling
> her that everything was fine, etc during the time that the cat was in
> the shelter. She contacted the original owners to find out what the
> hell was going on, and the wfie said that they didn't call her because
> they didn't want her to think they were bad people.
>
> <sigh>
>
>
>
> Orchid
While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
then it ends up in the shelter.
Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:46 AM
(Orchid) wrote in message >...
> On 29 Jul 2003 00:40:20 -0500, Arjun Ray >
> wrote:
>
> >In >,
> >(Yngver) wrote:
> >
> >|> But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
> >|> cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?
>
> >| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.
> >
> >Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
> >an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?
>
> Most often, it's because the owners don't want to admit
> 'failure'. I know a breeder who had a cat of her breeding go into a
> shelter -- she didn't find out until the people that adopted the cat
> contacted her. She had emails saved from the original owners telling
> her that everything was fine, etc during the time that the cat was in
> the shelter. She contacted the original owners to find out what the
> hell was going on, and the wfie said that they didn't call her because
> they didn't want her to think they were bad people.
>
> <sigh>
>
>
>
> Orchid
While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
then it ends up in the shelter.
Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:51 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
> > Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
> > As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
> > of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
>
> Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
> breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
> the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
> the other breeds.
They're overbred and ill-bred which enriches for those medical
problems. That's the whole point behind the movement to stop BYBs.
>
> Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.
Well, in the case of those breeds, they aren't for the feint of heart,
and often are purchased for the wrong reasons.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 06:51 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
> > Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
> > As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
> > of course APBTs and Staffies. :(
>
> Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
> breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
> the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
> the other breeds.
They're overbred and ill-bred which enriches for those medical
problems. That's the whole point behind the movement to stop BYBs.
>
> Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.
Well, in the case of those breeds, they aren't for the feint of heart,
and often are purchased for the wrong reasons.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 07:07 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >to
> >our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >everyday moggie.
>
> >With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >to
> >our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >everyday moggie.
>
> No, that appears to be a Persian, although whether actually a pedigreed
> purebred, I can't tell. I don't know enough about the standards for Persians.
>
> >http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/persian.jpg
> >
> >I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
> >purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
> >possibly
> >her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
> >doesn't
> >matter.
>
> Of course it matters, because Persians, Siamese and perhaps Maine Coons and
> Bengals are the most common kinds of cats that BYB's produce. Why? Because
> they're popular, and because the average person can't tell whether the cat is
> really purebred or not.
>
> I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats.
>
> Probably not, but she may well have turned up in a BYB's back yard.
Even BYBs register their animals...they are no less "purebred" than
those with better pedigrees.
>
> >She
> >wasn't spayed.
>
> Another sign of a BYB or kitten mill cat.
Oh, I love this tactic. "The cat isn't spayed, or isn't a great
example, so it must be from a BYB." Sheesh. Never mind the fact that
most breeders don't spay their animals before releasing them, and
always sell their offal.
>
> Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter. The Korat
> >we
> >got last month was neutered. I don't have a pic of him, but he didn't turrn
> >up
> >in a litter of barn cats either. Some breeds are unmistakably the product of
> >deliberate breeding.
> >
> Well, if I mate a white cat with a white cat so I can get white kittens, that's
> deliberate breeding too. But that's not what I'd call purebred.
>
> I'm not saying no pedigreed purebred cat ever turns up in a shelter,
All registered cats have pedigrees (Hell, all things that reproduce
have pedigrees). Some pedigrees are "more desirable" in the small
minded world of animal breeding. But all registered cats are just as
valid as "purebred" as all others.
Or did you mean "...not saying no registered purebred cats"...
>but
> depending on the breed, I've known people who've been waiting a couple years
> for one.
You are unlikely to find rarer breeds in shelters because the animals
are so expensive. But they do show up on occassion. I've seen a
Japanese Bobtail and a Sphynx, for example.
>I'd expect the most common ones to find in shelters would be the
> breeds I named above, because there are so many breeders (reputable or not) of
> these cats. And yes, I agree, I'd guess Persians would show up most often
> because many people buy them on whim (I know people who've seen Persian >kittens
> in pet stores and bought them then and there) without realizing how much work
> they are to keep groomed.
I've seen Persians owned by breeders who aren't properly groomed. I
have had *so* many Persian owners tell me "the breeder never told me
how hard it would be to maintain this cat" - probably 40 or 50 times.
Ignorance is not borne in pet stores alone.
>But again, the Persians in pet stores did not come
> from responsible breeders. They generally come from kitten mills.
Kitten mill kittens are just as much "registered purebred" as those
which have "more desirable" pedigrees, so what, exactly, is your
point?
Is it that highly pedigreed cats don't show up in shelters? They do,
but not to the same degree that "less desirable" purebreds do, mainly
because they are too expensive for most people to afford.
But that doesn't matter. The cats showing up at shelters, whether
they came from BYBs, top breeders, or whatever, are purebred, and were
purposely bred, and contribute to the overpop problem, just like all
random-bred cats do.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 07:07 AM
(Yngver) wrote in message >...
> >With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >to
> >our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >everyday moggie.
>
> >With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >to
> >our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >everyday moggie.
>
> No, that appears to be a Persian, although whether actually a pedigreed
> purebred, I can't tell. I don't know enough about the standards for Persians.
>
> >http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/persian.jpg
> >
> >I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
> >purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
> >possibly
> >her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
> >doesn't
> >matter.
>
> Of course it matters, because Persians, Siamese and perhaps Maine Coons and
> Bengals are the most common kinds of cats that BYB's produce. Why? Because
> they're popular, and because the average person can't tell whether the cat is
> really purebred or not.
>
> I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats.
>
> Probably not, but she may well have turned up in a BYB's back yard.
Even BYBs register their animals...they are no less "purebred" than
those with better pedigrees.
>
> >She
> >wasn't spayed.
>
> Another sign of a BYB or kitten mill cat.
Oh, I love this tactic. "The cat isn't spayed, or isn't a great
example, so it must be from a BYB." Sheesh. Never mind the fact that
most breeders don't spay their animals before releasing them, and
always sell their offal.
>
> Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter. The Korat
> >we
> >got last month was neutered. I don't have a pic of him, but he didn't turrn
> >up
> >in a litter of barn cats either. Some breeds are unmistakably the product of
> >deliberate breeding.
> >
> Well, if I mate a white cat with a white cat so I can get white kittens, that's
> deliberate breeding too. But that's not what I'd call purebred.
>
> I'm not saying no pedigreed purebred cat ever turns up in a shelter,
All registered cats have pedigrees (Hell, all things that reproduce
have pedigrees). Some pedigrees are "more desirable" in the small
minded world of animal breeding. But all registered cats are just as
valid as "purebred" as all others.
Or did you mean "...not saying no registered purebred cats"...
>but
> depending on the breed, I've known people who've been waiting a couple years
> for one.
You are unlikely to find rarer breeds in shelters because the animals
are so expensive. But they do show up on occassion. I've seen a
Japanese Bobtail and a Sphynx, for example.
>I'd expect the most common ones to find in shelters would be the
> breeds I named above, because there are so many breeders (reputable or not) of
> these cats. And yes, I agree, I'd guess Persians would show up most often
> because many people buy them on whim (I know people who've seen Persian >kittens
> in pet stores and bought them then and there) without realizing how much work
> they are to keep groomed.
I've seen Persians owned by breeders who aren't properly groomed. I
have had *so* many Persian owners tell me "the breeder never told me
how hard it would be to maintain this cat" - probably 40 or 50 times.
Ignorance is not borne in pet stores alone.
>But again, the Persians in pet stores did not come
> from responsible breeders. They generally come from kitten mills.
Kitten mill kittens are just as much "registered purebred" as those
which have "more desirable" pedigrees, so what, exactly, is your
point?
Is it that highly pedigreed cats don't show up in shelters? They do,
but not to the same degree that "less desirable" purebreds do, mainly
because they are too expensive for most people to afford.
But that doesn't matter. The cats showing up at shelters, whether
they came from BYBs, top breeders, or whatever, are purebred, and were
purposely bred, and contribute to the overpop problem, just like all
random-bred cats do.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 07:19 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, wrote:
>
> | Arjun Ray > wrote:
> | >
> | > "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
> |
> | Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
> | for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
>
> Rescuers do this too.
>
> | They are willing to get health tests done on the cat
>
> Rescuers do this too.
>
> | to make sure it's not going to pass down some sort of genetic disease.
>
> Rescuers mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
>
> | They are willing to go out of their way to breed him to another cat
> | that won't pass a genetic disease too and that the two cats will produce
> | a litter that will improve the breed.
>
> Improve what breed? Inbreeding is a negative-sum game. Are "failures"
> culled? No? Why not?
>
> Funny how "improving the breed" is always used to deflect attention away
> from overpopulation.
Breeding is just a game of "I can top that" and "big fish in little
pond". They all try to out-do each other, and those who "win" do so
manily because they have kissed ass and paid dues. It really has
little to do with quality of their animal(s).
"Improving the Breed!" Pffft...yeah.
Seems to me, if, after 30-50+ years of breeding, and they don't have a
"perfect" specimen yet, *somebody* is doing *something* wrong...
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 07:19 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, wrote:
>
> | Arjun Ray > wrote:
> | >
> | > "Them? Oh no! They're... special. You're... not."
> |
> | Or how about they are willing to spend more money than they will make up
> | for with the selling of the kittens making sure everything is done right.
>
> Rescuers do this too.
>
> | They are willing to get health tests done on the cat
>
> Rescuers do this too.
>
> | to make sure it's not going to pass down some sort of genetic disease.
>
> Rescuers mostly don't have to worry about that. Moggies are hardy.
>
> | They are willing to go out of their way to breed him to another cat
> | that won't pass a genetic disease too and that the two cats will produce
> | a litter that will improve the breed.
>
> Improve what breed? Inbreeding is a negative-sum game. Are "failures"
> culled? No? Why not?
>
> Funny how "improving the breed" is always used to deflect attention away
> from overpopulation.
Breeding is just a game of "I can top that" and "big fish in little
pond". They all try to out-do each other, and those who "win" do so
manily because they have kissed ass and paid dues. It really has
little to do with quality of their animal(s).
"Improving the Breed!" Pffft...yeah.
Seems to me, if, after 30-50+ years of breeding, and they don't have a
"perfect" specimen yet, *somebody* is doing *something* wrong...
-L.
*~*SooZy*~*
July 30th 03, 09:26 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
...
> While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
> purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
> animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
> that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
> animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
> then it ends up in the shelter.
>
> Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
> person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
> will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
> duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
>
> -L.
People maybe do sometimes buy pedigree pets for status, but wouldn't that
normally be dogs? then they can walk down the street *showing* them off....
I once had a Pedigree Cocker Spaniel and sadly had to have him put to sleep
at 4 years old! he came from a lady who's other dog couldn't get on with the
new puppy! found out the truth after 3 years, via the kennel club! :-( she
was part of a puppy farm racket!
to cut a long storey short, my boy was so interbreed he slowly went mad
:-( it was heart breaking to see this happen in such a beautiful dog. It
was my first and last pedigree dog! I always had rescue dogs before and
after him.
Soozy
*~*SooZy*~*
July 30th 03, 09:26 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
...
> While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
> purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
> animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
> that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
> animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
> then it ends up in the shelter.
>
> Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
> person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
> will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
> duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
>
> -L.
People maybe do sometimes buy pedigree pets for status, but wouldn't that
normally be dogs? then they can walk down the street *showing* them off....
I once had a Pedigree Cocker Spaniel and sadly had to have him put to sleep
at 4 years old! he came from a lady who's other dog couldn't get on with the
new puppy! found out the truth after 3 years, via the kennel club! :-( she
was part of a puppy farm racket!
to cut a long storey short, my boy was so interbreed he slowly went mad
:-( it was heart breaking to see this happen in such a beautiful dog. It
was my first and last pedigree dog! I always had rescue dogs before and
after him.
Soozy
-L.
July 30th 03, 10:53 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> >>With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >>to
> >>our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >>everyday moggie.
>
> >>With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >>to
> >>our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >>everyday moggie.
> >
> >No, that appears to be a Persian, although whether actually a pedigreed
> >purebred, I can't tell. I don't know enough about the standards for Persians.
>
> But it's a Persian. It's the product, or the offspring of the product of a
> breeder.
> >
> This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
> >>possibly
> >>her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
> >>doesn't
> >>matter.
> >
> >Of course it matters, because Persians, Siamese and perhaps Maine Coons and
> >Bengals are the most common kinds of cats that BYB's produce. Why? Because
> >they're popular, and because the average person can't tell whether the cat is
> >really purebred or not.
>
> No, it doesn't matter. "Papers" aren't that difficult to acquire, even for
> BYB's. The registry does not inspect the cattery, or the conditions the cat was
> raised in, but the cat is still registered. It still has "papers". It still
> comes from a "breeder." The distinction between "Good Breeder" and "Bad
> Breeder" doesn't come into play.
Actually all they need is a registry *number* for a cat of the breed.
People are harvesting numbers and using them to register animals that
are not of the parentage claimed.
>
> I truly wish it did. I wish CFA inspected catteries; hell, I wish they sent
> caseworkers once a month.
Hell, I'd settle for once a year if the inspection was unannounced...
> I wish John Q. Public would boycott mall pet stores
> and put kitten mills out of business. I wish they'd shut down every ad in Cat
> Fancy that says "Will Ship." But they don't.
Wouldn't want to **** off the constituency...
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 10:53 AM
(Sherry ) wrote in message >...
> >>With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >>to
> >>our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >>everyday moggie.
>
> >>With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
> >>to
> >>our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
> >>everyday moggie.
> >
> >No, that appears to be a Persian, although whether actually a pedigreed
> >purebred, I can't tell. I don't know enough about the standards for Persians.
>
> But it's a Persian. It's the product, or the offspring of the product of a
> breeder.
> >
> This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
> >>possibly
> >>her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
> >>doesn't
> >>matter.
> >
> >Of course it matters, because Persians, Siamese and perhaps Maine Coons and
> >Bengals are the most common kinds of cats that BYB's produce. Why? Because
> >they're popular, and because the average person can't tell whether the cat is
> >really purebred or not.
>
> No, it doesn't matter. "Papers" aren't that difficult to acquire, even for
> BYB's. The registry does not inspect the cattery, or the conditions the cat was
> raised in, but the cat is still registered. It still has "papers". It still
> comes from a "breeder." The distinction between "Good Breeder" and "Bad
> Breeder" doesn't come into play.
Actually all they need is a registry *number* for a cat of the breed.
People are harvesting numbers and using them to register animals that
are not of the parentage claimed.
>
> I truly wish it did. I wish CFA inspected catteries; hell, I wish they sent
> caseworkers once a month.
Hell, I'd settle for once a year if the inspection was unannounced...
> I wish John Q. Public would boycott mall pet stores
> and put kitten mills out of business. I wish they'd shut down every ad in Cat
> Fancy that says "Will Ship." But they don't.
Wouldn't want to **** off the constituency...
-L.
Arjun Ray
July 30th 03, 11:07 AM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:
| Actually all they need is a registry *number* for a cat of the breed.
| People are harvesting numbers and using them to register animals that
| are not of the parentage claimed.
If numbers can be harvested, they can also be just made up. (I suppose
what I'll hear next is that numbers aren't retired when a cat passes on,
or that they're re-used anyway - systemic deficiencies tailor made for
this kind of thing.)
Is there any documented evidence of this kind of fraud?
Arjun Ray
July 30th 03, 11:07 AM
In >,
(-L.) wrote:
| Actually all they need is a registry *number* for a cat of the breed.
| People are harvesting numbers and using them to register animals that
| are not of the parentage claimed.
If numbers can be harvested, they can also be just made up. (I suppose
what I'll hear next is that numbers aren't retired when a cat passes on,
or that they're re-used anyway - systemic deficiencies tailor made for
this kind of thing.)
Is there any documented evidence of this kind of fraud?
-L.
July 30th 03, 11:08 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > foundation of the breeding scam. Without papers, these people
> > consider these animals mutts.
>
> Because you are trying to imrpove the breed.
"Improve" it to what? To be so malformed it cannot breathe, has a
misshapen body, has cardiomyopathy, dies in labor/childbirth, has such
long hair it is continually matted, or any other of the myriad of
problems BREEDERS have created in these animals? Just, exactly, what
"improvements" are attained? At what point is the breed "perfect"?
At what point should these "improvements" stop? It's a ****ing sham,
is what it is.
>No, I woudln't support a
> breeder who didn't have papers because that shows they werne't even
> willing to put minimal effort into the breeding...
Papers don't mean anything. Any animal can be registered with
registry numbers.
> they are just breeding
> whatever they happen to have with no consideration what is brought into
> the breeding. But that doesn't mean that just cause they have papers I
> consider them a good breeder. Papers is the absolutel minimum thing...
> there's a lot more to it.
> >
> > You condone it defacto.
>
> No, that is a bull**** arguement. Try actually using a real arguement
> before retorting back.
Great. You don't like my assessment of your position, so your retort
is "that's bull****."
You consider "bull****" a "real argument"? - Ok, here you go:
Where the real "BULL****" lies is in people like YOU who think some
animals are worthy of breeding while others are killed because they
aren't as "worthy" or lack some BULL**** characteristic deemed
"desirable" by self-imptressed humans. That's the REAL BULL**** in
this whole debate.
Honestly, I don't know how you can support this crap with a straight
face.
-L.
-L.
July 30th 03, 11:08 AM
wrote in message >...
> -L. > wrote:
> > foundation of the breeding scam. Without papers, these people
> > consider these animals mutts.
>
> Because you are trying to imrpove the breed.
"Improve" it to what? To be so malformed it cannot breathe, has a
misshapen body, has cardiomyopathy, dies in labor/childbirth, has such
long hair it is continually matted, or any other of the myriad of
problems BREEDERS have created in these animals? Just, exactly, what
"improvements" are attained? At what point is the breed "perfect"?
At what point should these "improvements" stop? It's a ****ing sham,
is what it is.
>No, I woudln't support a
> breeder who didn't have papers because that shows they werne't even
> willing to put minimal effort into the breeding...
Papers don't mean anything. Any animal can be registered with
registry numbers.
> they are just breeding
> whatever they happen to have with no consideration what is brought into
> the breeding. But that doesn't mean that just cause they have papers I
> consider them a good breeder. Papers is the absolutel minimum thing...
> there's a lot more to it.
> >
> > You condone it defacto.
>
> No, that is a bull**** arguement. Try actually using a real arguement
> before retorting back.
Great. You don't like my assessment of your position, so your retort
is "that's bull****."
You consider "bull****" a "real argument"? - Ok, here you go:
Where the real "BULL****" lies is in people like YOU who think some
animals are worthy of breeding while others are killed because they
aren't as "worthy" or lack some BULL**** characteristic deemed
"desirable" by self-imptressed humans. That's the REAL BULL**** in
this whole debate.
Honestly, I don't know how you can support this crap with a straight
face.
-L.
Sherry
July 30th 03, 04:44 PM
>Breeding for evolutionarily irrelevant, inappropriate or detrimental
>characteristics. The genetic "feature" in question is rare to begin
>with, and its absence in the general population prevents deepening of
>the gene pool in the breeding stock. It's a system expressly designed
>to inbreed freaks.
>
"Improving the breed" is actually done all in the name of rosettes. If a Maine
Coon with lynx tips starts winning best of breed, you can bet your ass breeders
are scurrying to figure out how to get kkittens with lynx tips. Or whatever is
in vogue at the cat shows.
Sherry
Sherry
July 30th 03, 04:44 PM
>Breeding for evolutionarily irrelevant, inappropriate or detrimental
>characteristics. The genetic "feature" in question is rare to begin
>with, and its absence in the general population prevents deepening of
>the gene pool in the breeding stock. It's a system expressly designed
>to inbreed freaks.
>
"Improving the breed" is actually done all in the name of rosettes. If a Maine
Coon with lynx tips starts winning best of breed, you can bet your ass breeders
are scurrying to figure out how to get kkittens with lynx tips. Or whatever is
in vogue at the cat shows.
Sherry
Yngver
July 30th 03, 06:34 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>> And yet I've never encountered one that did,
>
>Nice smell of stud all over the house. Loverly.
Yes, even without the stud smell, a houseful of cats often has a distinct
fragrance. I guess if you live there, you get used to it.
>
>
>>other than a BYB. No wonder your
>> opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
>
>Actually the ****ty Birman breeder I referenced is supposedly "well
>respected" in the Birman circles. Heh. All the vets have a different
>opinion of her.
>
>-L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yngver
July 30th 03, 06:34 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>> And yet I've never encountered one that did,
>
>Nice smell of stud all over the house. Loverly.
Yes, even without the stud smell, a houseful of cats often has a distinct
fragrance. I guess if you live there, you get used to it.
>
>
>>other than a BYB. No wonder your
>> opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.
>
>
>Actually the ****ty Birman breeder I referenced is supposedly "well
>respected" in the Birman circles. Heh. All the vets have a different
>opinion of her.
>
>-L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yngver
July 30th 03, 06:37 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
>purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
>animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
>that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
>animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
>then it ends up in the shelter.
>
>Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
>person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
>will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
>duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
>
I think that's true too. I've certainly known people to lie about whether they
will have the cat declawed, knowing the breeder would not sell them the kitten
otherwise.
Yngver
July 30th 03, 06:37 PM
(-L.) wrote:
>While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
>purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
>animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
>that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
>animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
>then it ends up in the shelter.
>
>Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
>person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
>will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
>duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.
>
I think that's true too. I've certainly known people to lie about whether they
will have the cat declawed, knowing the breeder would not sell them the kitten
otherwise.
Cheryl
July 30th 03, 10:55 PM
wrote:
> Orchid wrote:
>
>> Megan, I don't sing my
>> own praises about anything. People ask
>> what I do, I tell them. I'm sorry that I
>> don't fit your mental picture of a 'cat
>> rescuer', but not all of us want to live
>> in a small apartment with 25 cats.
>
> Heh. Thanks for making it clear just how ignorant you are about my
> situation. Not you nor anyone here has ever been to my house and can
> hardly make claims as to its size.
Megan, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.
> (by humans) qualities. Flat faced Persians are the most obvious
> example.
>
Like this prize-winner.
http://www.cfainc.org/awards/03nw/coy.jpg
Cheryl
July 30th 03, 10:55 PM
wrote:
> Orchid wrote:
>
>> Megan, I don't sing my
>> own praises about anything. People ask
>> what I do, I tell them. I'm sorry that I
>> don't fit your mental picture of a 'cat
>> rescuer', but not all of us want to live
>> in a small apartment with 25 cats.
>
> Heh. Thanks for making it clear just how ignorant you are about my
> situation. Not you nor anyone here has ever been to my house and can
> hardly make claims as to its size.
Megan, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.
> (by humans) qualities. Flat faced Persians are the most obvious
> example.
>
Like this prize-winner.
http://www.cfainc.org/awards/03nw/coy.jpg
Sherry
July 31st 03, 12:51 AM
>Look at this pic of one
>from the beginning of the century:
>http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
>How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a mystery.
>
>Megan
OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those flat-faced, runny-eyed, perpetually-sneering
Persians of today that the breeders have created don't hold a candle to that
creature.
Sherry
Sherry
July 31st 03, 12:51 AM
>Look at this pic of one
>from the beginning of the century:
>http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
>How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a mystery.
>
>Megan
OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those flat-faced, runny-eyed, perpetually-sneering
Persians of today that the breeders have created don't hold a candle to that
creature.
Sherry
Sherry
July 31st 03, 12:53 AM
>Obviously your experience in that respect is different from mine. I've never
>run into a BYB that could actually provide registration papers and certainly
>not a 5-generation pedigree.
>
Really? Look in the newspaper, at the ads for "cats for sale." About *all* of
them I'd classify as "BYB's" because I hear "responsible" breeder don't
advertise in the newspaper. All of them (in today's paper anyway) claim to be
"registered."
Sherry
Sherry
July 31st 03, 12:53 AM
>Obviously your experience in that respect is different from mine. I've never
>run into a BYB that could actually provide registration papers and certainly
>not a 5-generation pedigree.
>
Really? Look in the newspaper, at the ads for "cats for sale." About *all* of
them I'd classify as "BYB's" because I hear "responsible" breeder don't
advertise in the newspaper. All of them (in today's paper anyway) claim to be
"registered."
Sherry
Karen Chuplis
July 31st 03, 01:27 AM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/30/03 6:37 PM:
> Cheryl wrote:
>
>>> Flat faced Persians are the most
>>> obvious example.
>
>> Like this prize-winner.
>> http://www.cfainc.org/awards/03nw/coy.j
>> g
>
> That is so sad. What they have done to and continue to do to the Persian
> is a travesty. The original cats were stunning. Look at this pic of one
> from the beginning of the century:
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
> How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a mystery.
>
> Megan
>
>
Oh, wow. They were SO much prettier. It's a crying shame.
Karen
Karen Chuplis
July 31st 03, 01:27 AM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/30/03 6:37 PM:
> Cheryl wrote:
>
>>> Flat faced Persians are the most
>>> obvious example.
>
>> Like this prize-winner.
>> http://www.cfainc.org/awards/03nw/coy.j
>> g
>
> That is so sad. What they have done to and continue to do to the Persian
> is a travesty. The original cats were stunning. Look at this pic of one
> from the beginning of the century:
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
> How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a mystery.
>
> Megan
>
>
Oh, wow. They were SO much prettier. It's a crying shame.
Karen
Sherry wrote:
>OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
>flat-faced, runny-eyed,
>perpetually-sneering Persians of today
>that the breeders have created don't hold
>a candle to that creature.
I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
or 50's:
http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Sherry wrote:
>OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
>flat-faced, runny-eyed,
>perpetually-sneering Persians of today
>that the breeders have created don't hold
>a candle to that creature.
I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
or 50's:
http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Cheryl
July 31st 03, 01:38 AM
wrote:
>
> That is so sad. What they have done to and continue to do to the
> Persian is a travesty. The original cats were stunning. Look at this
> pic of one from the beginning of the century:
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
> How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a
mystery.
>
That looks more like a cat. It is beautiful! The one from the cat
fancy site looks more like an owl. Do you think they breed for the
red eye coloration? It doesn't look natural but it certainly is
*exotic*. I guess that's what they're going for.
Cheryl
July 31st 03, 01:38 AM
wrote:
>
> That is so sad. What they have done to and continue to do to the
> Persian is a travesty. The original cats were stunning. Look at this
> pic of one from the beginning of the century:
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/crystal.jpg
>
> How anyone could think the "new" version is "desirable" is a
mystery.
>
That looks more like a cat. It is beautiful! The one from the cat
fancy site looks more like an owl. Do you think they breed for the
red eye coloration? It doesn't look natural but it certainly is
*exotic*. I guess that's what they're going for.
Cheryl
July 31st 03, 02:35 AM
wrote:
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the
> 1940's or 50's:
>
>
http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla
..jpg
>
I don't get how they went from that to the owl looking cat.
Beautiful.
Cheryl
July 31st 03, 02:35 AM
wrote:
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the
> 1940's or 50's:
>
>
http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla
..jpg
>
I don't get how they went from that to the owl looking cat.
Beautiful.
*~*SooZy*~*
July 31st 03, 12:52 PM
Wow what beauties :-)
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
> wrote in message
...
> Sherry wrote:
>
> >OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
> >flat-faced, runny-eyed,
> >perpetually-sneering Persians of today
> >that the breeders have created don't hold
> >a candle to that creature.
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
> or 50's:
>
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
>
> Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
> Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
> personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
> two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
*~*SooZy*~*
July 31st 03, 12:52 PM
Wow what beauties :-)
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
> wrote in message
...
> Sherry wrote:
>
> >OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
> >flat-faced, runny-eyed,
> >perpetually-sneering Persians of today
> >that the breeders have created don't hold
> >a candle to that creature.
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
> or 50's:
>
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
>
> Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
> Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
> personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
> two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
-L.
July 31st 03, 04:54 PM
wrote in message >...
> Sherry wrote:
>
> >OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
> >flat-faced, runny-eyed,
> >perpetually-sneering Persians of today
> >that the breeders have created don't hold
> >a candle to that creature.
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
> or 50's:
>
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
>
> Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
> Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
> personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
> two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
>
>
> Megan
>
I was going to say that those pics from yon look like the longhairs in
the shelters. :) Hybrid vigor is always beautiful. :)
-L.
-L.
July 31st 03, 04:54 PM
wrote in message >...
> Sherry wrote:
>
> >OMG. That's a beautiful cat. Those
> >flat-faced, runny-eyed,
> >perpetually-sneering Persians of today
> >that the breeders have created don't hold
> >a candle to that creature.
>
> I totally agree. Here's another pic that I'm guessing is from the 1940's
> or 50's:
>
> http://www.traditionalcats.com/BreedInfo/FAQTPersian/PersianChinchilla.jpg
>
> Comparing that to the new breeds makes you want to cry doesn't it?
> Especially when there are plenty of gorgeous fluffy cats with lovely
> personalties you can get for free or for a small adoption fee! Here are
> two (plus Teddy the stripey one) of my "free" gorgeous fluffy cats:
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/15708432.jpg
>
> http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12033420.jpg
>
>
> Megan
>
I was going to say that those pics from yon look like the longhairs in
the shelters. :) Hybrid vigor is always beautiful. :)
-L.
-L wrote:
>I was going to say that those pics from
>you look like the longhairs in the shelters. :)
Actually those two, Princess and Marvin, are the offspring of a feral
cat, Stella, that I had trapped.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12031747.jpg
She was so hugely pregnant when I caught her that I felt she was past
the point of safely spaying her. She had 7 kittens! I found homes for
two of them together, but ended up keeping the other five. I look at
them and just can't imagine that they could would have been feral and on
the streets, especially Princess who is a creature of very delicate
sensibilities. :-)
>Hybrid vigor is always beautiful. :)
I totally agree and there is no shortage of beautiful cats available at
shelters or living on the streets that need rescuing. This is what
mystifies me. How can anyone, knowing that there is such a huge
overpopulation problem, even consider turning their backs on cats in
need by buying a cat from a breeder? There is nothing a "purebred" can
offer that can't be found in a cat from a shelter or that is a stray.
And what do "papers" really mean anyway? (Zilch in my book.) So many
cats dying and still these people, who are in a position to make a
direct and very important impact and difference, place more importance
on their own selfish desires. I just don't get that mentality.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
-L wrote:
>I was going to say that those pics from
>you look like the longhairs in the shelters. :)
Actually those two, Princess and Marvin, are the offspring of a feral
cat, Stella, that I had trapped.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL51/476350/932236/12031747.jpg
She was so hugely pregnant when I caught her that I felt she was past
the point of safely spaying her. She had 7 kittens! I found homes for
two of them together, but ended up keeping the other five. I look at
them and just can't imagine that they could would have been feral and on
the streets, especially Princess who is a creature of very delicate
sensibilities. :-)
>Hybrid vigor is always beautiful. :)
I totally agree and there is no shortage of beautiful cats available at
shelters or living on the streets that need rescuing. This is what
mystifies me. How can anyone, knowing that there is such a huge
overpopulation problem, even consider turning their backs on cats in
need by buying a cat from a breeder? There is nothing a "purebred" can
offer that can't be found in a cat from a shelter or that is a stray.
And what do "papers" really mean anyway? (Zilch in my book.) So many
cats dying and still these people, who are in a position to make a
direct and very important impact and difference, place more importance
on their own selfish desires. I just don't get that mentality.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
-L.
August 1st 03, 07:22 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message >...
> -L. wrote:
>
> >>Do you think they breed for the red eye coloration?
> >
> > Yes, they do especially in the black cats. If you ever see one in
> > person, it's really amazing (although quite odd).
> >
>
> I haven't seen eyes like that. I bet they are shocking.
>
> >> It doesn't look natural but it certainly is
> >> *exotic*. I guess that's what they're going for.
> >
> > Sigh. Freakish is more like it...
> >
> Well, I used the word *exotic* on purpose because the CF site also
> showed some short-haired persians
Now, *that's* an oxymoron if I ever heard one!...What's next - a
long-haired Sphynx? (I know, I know...don't give them any ideas!)
>(exotics) bred[1] for those persian
> lovers who don't want the bother of having to groom long hair.
>
> > -L.
>
> [1] No, I don't know for a fact that it wasn't nature that created the
> exotics.
Oh, I wasn't criticizing your use of the label "exotic" - those eyes
*are* exotic looking. I was just commenting on the freakishness of
promoting something that is so infrequent in nature. :)
-L.
-L.
August 1st 03, 07:22 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message >...
> -L. wrote:
>
> >>Do you think they breed for the red eye coloration?
> >
> > Yes, they do especially in the black cats. If you ever see one in
> > person, it's really amazing (although quite odd).
> >
>
> I haven't seen eyes like that. I bet they are shocking.
>
> >> It doesn't look natural but it certainly is
> >> *exotic*. I guess that's what they're going for.
> >
> > Sigh. Freakish is more like it...
> >
> Well, I used the word *exotic* on purpose because the CF site also
> showed some short-haired persians
Now, *that's* an oxymoron if I ever heard one!...What's next - a
long-haired Sphynx? (I know, I know...don't give them any ideas!)
>(exotics) bred[1] for those persian
> lovers who don't want the bother of having to groom long hair.
>
> > -L.
>
> [1] No, I don't know for a fact that it wasn't nature that created the
> exotics.
Oh, I wasn't criticizing your use of the label "exotic" - those eyes
*are* exotic looking. I was just commenting on the freakishness of
promoting something that is so infrequent in nature. :)
-L.
Arjun Ray > wrote:
>
> They would rather have trophies than pets.
>
You know, you'll reach more people if you are willing to not
overgeneralize and make yourself look like some one who is just totally
unreasonable.
My Isis is very much a pet thankyouverymuch... and if I really wanted just
a trophy, why did I bother trying to tame her down and get her to not be
afraid of me (The cat is super timid... total sweetheart and not a mean
bone in her body, but so afraid of people). I could have easily just given
her away and tried to find another one that would show herself to others
more often (you'd never know I had her if I didn't tell you. Some of my
friends still question her existance as she's very good at hiding before
anyone even comes in the house).
I got Isis because my previous cat had a lot of Siamese and I loved her
(There's a reason for you to get a purebred that has nothing to do with
wanting a trophy)... though you'll find it amusing that the two are
nothing alike. They share(d)siamese traits but display it in totally
different ways. Yes, a breed can have traits that fit the breed and have
very different cats at the same time.
For example both were one people cats (very much a Siamese trait. The
one person I've met with a siamese that did like other people says it
is still obvious who she favors).Sharmon was mean to anyone else
who dared pet her but not afraid of them, just didn't like them and would
scratch them for daring to touch her. Hell, sometimes she'd scratch me
for touching her when she wanted to be left alone (Isis has leave me
alone periods too but she's not mean.. she just runs away if you try to
pet her and she doesn't want to be pet). Isis is not a mean
cat but afraid of eveyrone and bonded to me and even my roommate who she
knows she doesn't trust as well, but she lets him even pet her sometimes,
but it's obvious who she favors (who she lets pick her up, who she comes
to, who she doesn't give very distrustful stares when they try to pet
her). Both held grudges very well also... Isis goes back to being you
scare me, and Sharmon would just hide out somewhere and get ****y if you
found her (it was foolish to try to pet her if she was under something..
usually meant she wanted to be left alone).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Arjun Ray > wrote:
>
> They would rather have trophies than pets.
>
You know, you'll reach more people if you are willing to not
overgeneralize and make yourself look like some one who is just totally
unreasonable.
My Isis is very much a pet thankyouverymuch... and if I really wanted just
a trophy, why did I bother trying to tame her down and get her to not be
afraid of me (The cat is super timid... total sweetheart and not a mean
bone in her body, but so afraid of people). I could have easily just given
her away and tried to find another one that would show herself to others
more often (you'd never know I had her if I didn't tell you. Some of my
friends still question her existance as she's very good at hiding before
anyone even comes in the house).
I got Isis because my previous cat had a lot of Siamese and I loved her
(There's a reason for you to get a purebred that has nothing to do with
wanting a trophy)... though you'll find it amusing that the two are
nothing alike. They share(d)siamese traits but display it in totally
different ways. Yes, a breed can have traits that fit the breed and have
very different cats at the same time.
For example both were one people cats (very much a Siamese trait. The
one person I've met with a siamese that did like other people says it
is still obvious who she favors).Sharmon was mean to anyone else
who dared pet her but not afraid of them, just didn't like them and would
scratch them for daring to touch her. Hell, sometimes she'd scratch me
for touching her when she wanted to be left alone (Isis has leave me
alone periods too but she's not mean.. she just runs away if you try to
pet her and she doesn't want to be pet). Isis is not a mean
cat but afraid of eveyrone and bonded to me and even my roommate who she
knows she doesn't trust as well, but she lets him even pet her sometimes,
but it's obvious who she favors (who she lets pick her up, who she comes
to, who she doesn't give very distrustful stares when they try to pet
her). Both held grudges very well also... Isis goes back to being you
scare me, and Sharmon would just hide out somewhere and get ****y if you
found her (it was foolish to try to pet her if she was under something..
usually meant she wanted to be left alone).
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Sherry wrote:
>Where did you get your cat?
She got it from a breeder online that she never met. She had the kitten
shipped to her on an airplane in cargo. The poor thing was totally
freaked when she arrived and it quickly became clear that the breeder
wasn't truthful about the kitten. It's a shame she went that route as
there are always Siamese cats popping up in shelters, not to mention
tons of them at http://www.siameserescue.org
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Sherry wrote:
>Where did you get your cat?
She got it from a breeder online that she never met. She had the kitten
shipped to her on an airplane in cargo. The poor thing was totally
freaked when she arrived and it quickly became clear that the breeder
wasn't truthful about the kitten. It's a shame she went that route as
there are always Siamese cats popping up in shelters, not to mention
tons of them at http://www.siameserescue.org
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Arjun wrote:
>There aren't too many longhair ferals out
>there. In the Rikers Island project, the
>population of 250-300 cats had only a
>handful of longhairs, interestingly enough
>all female, mostly white with black
>splotches. It's my understanding that
>longhair is a recessive gene, so I'm not
>surprised it generally has to be "bred for".
>Feral longhairs would probably have
>reduced life chances anyway.
I have never seen longhaired ferals around here (there would have been
three had Stella had her kittens outside.) Murphy is the exception and
he was so badly matted when I trapped him they had to shave one whole
side of his body and then some, poor baby :-( I think matting would be
the worst part for a feral longhair.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Arjun wrote:
>There aren't too many longhair ferals out
>there. In the Rikers Island project, the
>population of 250-300 cats had only a
>handful of longhairs, interestingly enough
>all female, mostly white with black
>splotches. It's my understanding that
>longhair is a recessive gene, so I'm not
>surprised it generally has to be "bred for".
>Feral longhairs would probably have
>reduced life chances anyway.
I have never seen longhaired ferals around here (there would have been
three had Stella had her kittens outside.) Murphy is the exception and
he was so badly matted when I trapped him they had to shave one whole
side of his body and then some, poor baby :-( I think matting would be
the worst part for a feral longhair.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Sherry > wrote:
> Where did you get your cat?
>
Sharmon: Litter of kittens that a vet was giving away (don't know fi they
were a client of his or if some one dumped them at his door)
Isis: Traditional siamese breeder. Wouldn't go to her again ieven if she
was still aruond... I like Isis but in hindsight I'mm not suo sure she was
a breeder I'd condone.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Sherry > wrote:
> Where did you get your cat?
>
Sharmon: Litter of kittens that a vet was giving away (don't know fi they
were a client of his or if some one dumped them at his door)
Isis: Traditional siamese breeder. Wouldn't go to her again ieven if she
was still aruond... I like Isis but in hindsight I'mm not suo sure she was
a breeder I'd condone.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
wrote:
> Sherry wrote:
>>Where did you get your cat?
>
> She got it from a breeder online that she never met. She had the kitten
> shipped to her on an airplane in cargo. The poor thing was totally
> freaked when she arrived and it quickly became clear that the breeder
Yep, and thebn you accused me of wanting to give her away when I posted my
worries on how to get her to acclimate because we had gotten in this
arguement before and you deideded that based on me getting a purebred
meant I was the kind of person who would just give the cat away.
That poor kitty is now sitting on my desk wondering why I'm not paying
attention to her and instead paying attention to that silly box (actually
she just got bored and jumped off to go find other things to do).
Oh, and I get the feeling Megan has killfiled me so I think it's pretty
tacky of her to indirectly aim a response to me to a question that
wasn't even asked of her knowing she will never read any response
I'll make back. If you are reading this, Megan, I apologize for this
paragraph, obviously, I'm wrong, if not... I'd just like to point that
out to others reading this thread.
>wasn't truthful about the kitten. It's a shame she went that route as
Yep, she was a bad breeder. I will admit I chose too hastily, was easily
pacified by things that if I looked closer I might have seen that she
wasn't that great. And honestly, any breeder willing to ship a cat as
shy as Isis can't be that great (to be fair she was hesitant at first
about sending me Isis, she at first was telling me she had no females
- I was being silly and insisting on a female cat. After me continually
pushing for a female, as every cat I grew up with was female, she
remarked she had one but she was a bit shy.. as Megan said, the
breeder wasn't all that truthful.. she didn't outright lie, she
way underexagerated though). I should have gotten her from the
breeder that I had contacted a year before when I wasn't in such
a great position for a cat who refused sale to me and told me to
wait until I was in a better position. I was impatient though.
And, believe it or not, I did check out Siamese rescue. I wanted
to make sure I got a Siamese though and their cats didn't
even have Siamese markings! In fact I don't think I ever see a
siamese being put up for adoption (admittedly I'm not looking
but when I do look over cats being put up for adoption I have
yet to even see one that needs to be adpoted). So, despite
them being a popular breed, they aren't taking that many slots
in the shelters.
Alice
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
wrote:
> Sherry wrote:
>>Where did you get your cat?
>
> She got it from a breeder online that she never met. She had the kitten
> shipped to her on an airplane in cargo. The poor thing was totally
> freaked when she arrived and it quickly became clear that the breeder
Yep, and thebn you accused me of wanting to give her away when I posted my
worries on how to get her to acclimate because we had gotten in this
arguement before and you deideded that based on me getting a purebred
meant I was the kind of person who would just give the cat away.
That poor kitty is now sitting on my desk wondering why I'm not paying
attention to her and instead paying attention to that silly box (actually
she just got bored and jumped off to go find other things to do).
Oh, and I get the feeling Megan has killfiled me so I think it's pretty
tacky of her to indirectly aim a response to me to a question that
wasn't even asked of her knowing she will never read any response
I'll make back. If you are reading this, Megan, I apologize for this
paragraph, obviously, I'm wrong, if not... I'd just like to point that
out to others reading this thread.
>wasn't truthful about the kitten. It's a shame she went that route as
Yep, she was a bad breeder. I will admit I chose too hastily, was easily
pacified by things that if I looked closer I might have seen that she
wasn't that great. And honestly, any breeder willing to ship a cat as
shy as Isis can't be that great (to be fair she was hesitant at first
about sending me Isis, she at first was telling me she had no females
- I was being silly and insisting on a female cat. After me continually
pushing for a female, as every cat I grew up with was female, she
remarked she had one but she was a bit shy.. as Megan said, the
breeder wasn't all that truthful.. she didn't outright lie, she
way underexagerated though). I should have gotten her from the
breeder that I had contacted a year before when I wasn't in such
a great position for a cat who refused sale to me and told me to
wait until I was in a better position. I was impatient though.
And, believe it or not, I did check out Siamese rescue. I wanted
to make sure I got a Siamese though and their cats didn't
even have Siamese markings! In fact I don't think I ever see a
siamese being put up for adoption (admittedly I'm not looking
but when I do look over cats being put up for adoption I have
yet to even see one that needs to be adpoted). So, despite
them being a popular breed, they aren't taking that many slots
in the shelters.
Alice
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Tigress wrote:
>thebn you accused me of wanting to give
>her away when I posted my worries on
>how to get her to acclimate because we
>had gotten in this arguement before and
>you deideded that based on me getting a
>purebred meant I was the kind of person
>who would just give the cat away.
That is not true. Let me refresh your memory...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=dba0c2d6a73f404e&rnum=10
You wrote:
>My roomie is not really doning much to
>make me feel comfortable that my cat
>won't be a work to get to trust humans,
>and I'm not sure how good with nervous
>cats I can be.
To which I responded:
>you will have to FIND A WAY, unless of
>course you plan on "getting rid of it" if it
>doesn't work out.
Your statemment made it seem that you would be hesitant about keeping
her if you weren't able to bring her out of her shell. My statement did
not accuse you of "wanting" to get rid of her, only that it seemed from
what you stated that that might be an unfortunate alternative if you did
not find a way to deal with her. I then went on to give you advice on
how to deal with her.
>Oh, and I get the feeling Megan has
>killfiled me so I think it's pretty tacky of
>her to indirectly aim a response to me to a
>question that wasn't even asked of her
I knew the answer and posted it. It's a public forum, remember?
>knowing she will never read any response
>I'll make back.
As I have pointed out many times over the years, WebTV does not have a
killfile, and I don't believe in using them anyway.
>If you are reading this, Megan, I
>apologize for this paragraph, obviously,
>I'm wrong
Yes, you are.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Tigress wrote:
>thebn you accused me of wanting to give
>her away when I posted my worries on
>how to get her to acclimate because we
>had gotten in this arguement before and
>you deideded that based on me getting a
>purebred meant I was the kind of person
>who would just give the cat away.
That is not true. Let me refresh your memory...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=dba0c2d6a73f404e&rnum=10
You wrote:
>My roomie is not really doning much to
>make me feel comfortable that my cat
>won't be a work to get to trust humans,
>and I'm not sure how good with nervous
>cats I can be.
To which I responded:
>you will have to FIND A WAY, unless of
>course you plan on "getting rid of it" if it
>doesn't work out.
Your statemment made it seem that you would be hesitant about keeping
her if you weren't able to bring her out of her shell. My statement did
not accuse you of "wanting" to get rid of her, only that it seemed from
what you stated that that might be an unfortunate alternative if you did
not find a way to deal with her. I then went on to give you advice on
how to deal with her.
>Oh, and I get the feeling Megan has
>killfiled me so I think it's pretty tacky of
>her to indirectly aim a response to me to a
>question that wasn't even asked of her
I knew the answer and posted it. It's a public forum, remember?
>knowing she will never read any response
>I'll make back.
As I have pointed out many times over the years, WebTV does not have a
killfile, and I don't believe in using them anyway.
>If you are reading this, Megan, I
>apologize for this paragraph, obviously,
>I'm wrong
Yes, you are.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
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