help-- my kittens hate me! :(

[Julie Lim]

Well, okay, "hate" is a bit strong, but they sure ain't happy kitties.
Lemme back up a bit--

My husband and I adopted a pair of male littermates at the start of
July. For the first few days, they kept hiding in dark corners of
their arrival "safe room" and wouldn't come out when either of us was
there, but eventually they got resigned to these big lumbering hulks
coming in to handle their litter and food. The rescue volunteer said
it was important to spend a lot of time with them so they'd bond to us
instead of just to each other, so I've been spending at least three
hours with them every evening, and often up to six hours. I've even
slept overnight in there several times. Once they stopped running for
cover every time I moved, I started waving a Cat Dancer around at
them, and both of them play with that just fine. And if I'm just
quietly sitting in a corner of their room and reading a book, they'll
rocket all over the place with their own version of pro wrestling.

But they just don't want to be picked up and scritched. Most of the
time they don't even want to be scritched; if I try, they sidle out of
reach and stare at me mistrustfully. They've stopped actively fighting
me off if I do manage to creep over and pick them up or gently hold
them in place while I stroke their backs or scratch their chin and
ears, but they'll still only put up with it for a few minutes before
they increase their attempts to get away and I feel sorry enough for
them to let them go. They do start to purr, but I'm afraid it's just
"stress purring" instead of a true happy purr, because sometimes they
also start to purr once they realize they have nowhere else to sidle
off to and they're cornered.

I'm not chasing them at high speed, just slowly moving up to them with
an outstretched hand so they can sniff my knuckles first, and even
lying on the ground if that's where they're sitting. One of the
kittens has been shy from the start, but what has me worried about the
bonding issue is that the other one started out more friendly but is
starting to get as shy as his bro. Neither of them has shown any
interest yet in coming out of the "safe room" to explore the rest of
the house, or at least one of the cat books I got said to wait until
they actually started to scratch or meow at the door. But they hardly
meow at all anyway. Technically, they were born as ferals, but I think
they were rescued when the litter was pretty young; their mother still
acted tame, and the friendlier kitten had been just fine with being
held and scritched the first time we went to see him.

We've never owned cats before, though we have shared a place with a
housemate's cat. The kittens are about 13 weeks old now, and I don't
know if they'll grow out of this or if I'm already emotionally
scarring them for life somehow. Should I keep trying to convince them
that if scritching is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it? Should I back
off and wait for them to approach me on their own? They love dried
anchovy snacks, and I can get them to come forward and eat them from
my hand, but the moment I try to pet the kittens, they back off with
that wide-eyed look of "Crap! The big scary giant is going to eat me!"

Help?

[Priscilla H Ballou]

wombn > quoth:

>Each feeding was a little closer to me, until finally, they were
>putting their paws on my crossed legs to reach the food.
>Then I brought in a dessert plate and put it in my lap (sitting
>crosslegged on the floor) and did my usual slient, unmoving, look-away
>thing.
>They eventually overcame their fear enough to climb up in my lap to
>eat the food on the plate.
>THEN I started stroking them while they ate.

When I was socializing Sebastian, my (former) feral, I fed him treats of
chicken livers sauteed in bacon fat, poached salmon, and so on in a little
saucer. First I slowly edged the saucer out from under the bed so he'd
come out into the open to eat (several days there), then got it closer to
me. On day 15 I was lying on my back on the floor, saucer balanced on my
belly, with Sebbie climbing up to eat. I had not attempted to pet him
yet. Well, OK, at the beginning I attempted it, but the hissing changed
my mind. On day 16 he stood next to me as I sat cross-legged on the
floor. He was shivering with fear, his tail curled up between his hind
legs, and saying about as clearly as anything I've ever heard, "Do it now.
Get it over with. Eat me or pet me or whatever. I can't stand it any
more!" So I petted him, slowly and gently, then rubbed under his chin
with my finger and he stretched his neck out. I think it was the next day
he purred when I petted him, and not long after that I was lying on the
bed petting him after his treats and he rolled over onto his back so I
could massage his belly. His front legs went up over his head and he
kneaded the air, purring while I rubbed his belly. :-)

Take it slow, but make sure you make a little progress every day.
Inexorably alter their boundaries until they're snugglebunnies without
knowing how it happened. It will happen. They may well never be cats who
like to be picked up -- some cats just are -- but time, patience,
determination, and love will win out -- especially if you've got some
lovely food for them to go along with it!

Priscilla

[Priscilla H Ballou]

wombn > quoth:

>Each feeding was a little closer to me, until finally, they were
>putting their paws on my crossed legs to reach the food.
>Then I brought in a dessert plate and put it in my lap (sitting
>crosslegged on the floor) and did my usual slient, unmoving, look-away
>thing.
>They eventually overcame their fear enough to climb up in my lap to
>eat the food on the plate.
>THEN I started stroking them while they ate.

When I was socializing Sebastian, my (former) feral, I fed him treats of
chicken livers sauteed in bacon fat, poached salmon, and so on in a little
saucer. First I slowly edged the saucer out from under the bed so he'd
come out into the open to eat (several days there), then got it closer to
me. On day 15 I was lying on my back on the floor, saucer balanced on my
belly, with Sebbie climbing up to eat. I had not attempted to pet him
yet. Well, OK, at the beginning I attempted it, but the hissing changed
my mind. On day 16 he stood next to me as I sat cross-legged on the
floor. He was shivering with fear, his tail curled up between his hind
legs, and saying about as clearly as anything I've ever heard, "Do it now.
Get it over with. Eat me or pet me or whatever. I can't stand it any
more!" So I petted him, slowly and gently, then rubbed under his chin
with my finger and he stretched his neck out. I think it was the next day
he purred when I petted him, and not long after that I was lying on the
bed petting him after his treats and he rolled over onto his back so I
could massage his belly. His front legs went up over his head and he
kneaded the air, purring while I rubbed his belly. :-)

Take it slow, but make sure you make a little progress every day.
Inexorably alter their boundaries until they're snugglebunnies without
knowing how it happened. It will happen. They may well never be cats who
like to be picked up -- some cats just are -- but time, patience,
determination, and love will win out -- especially if you've got some
lovely food for them to go along with it!

Priscilla

[Annie Wxill]

"Julie Lim" > wrote in message
om...
> Well, okay, "hate" is a bit strong, but they sure ain't happy kitties.
....

Hi Julie,
Congratulations on the addition of your new babies. It sounds to me like you
are doing the right things. Others have given you some good suggestions. I
would like to add that at 13 weeks they have a lot of energy and probably
think they have more important things to do than sit still for more than a
few seconds, so don't take it personally. I'm sure they will come around.
Annie

[Annie Wxill]

"Julie Lim" > wrote in message
om...
> Well, okay, "hate" is a bit strong, but they sure ain't happy kitties.
....

Hi Julie,
Congratulations on the addition of your new babies. It sounds to me like you
are doing the right things. Others have given you some good suggestions. I
would like to add that at 13 weeks they have a lot of energy and probably
think they have more important things to do than sit still for more than a
few seconds, so don't take it personally. I'm sure they will come around.
Annie

[Priscilla Ballou]

In article >,
wombn > wrote:

> I think it was the next day
> >he purred when I petted him, and not long after that I was lying on the
> >bed petting him after his treats and he rolled over onto his back so I
> >could massage his belly. His front legs went up over his head and he
> >kneaded the air, purring while I rubbed his belly. :-)
>
> awwwww

Yeah, that was my approximate reaction, too, with overtones of great
joy.

Priscilla
--
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
(thanks be to topfive.com)

[Priscilla Ballou]

In article >,
wombn > wrote:

> I think it was the next day
> >he purred when I petted him, and not long after that I was lying on the
> >bed petting him after his treats and he rolled over onto his back so I
> >could massage his belly. His front legs went up over his head and he
> >kneaded the air, purring while I rubbed his belly. :-)
>
> awwwww

Yeah, that was my approximate reaction, too, with overtones of great
joy.

Priscilla
--
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
(thanks be to topfive.com)

[Liz]

Ferals do take some time to come around specially if their mother is
not near to show them the human is ok, - that is, if the mother is
friendly. Since you never had cats, you may not be familiar as to how
to handle them. A lot of people believe it's ok to pick cats and dogs
up by their forelegs or by the sides of their chest, another lot
believe picking them up by the skin behind their neck is ok, and I've
seen many cat owners let the cat jump out their lap when they're
standing or simply drop them. Some people also have a heavy hand or
play in a way that to the animal is highly annoying. I totally agree
with what Arjun said about handling cats and I'd go a bit further. I
don't let the cat slide out of my hands, I actually place them on the
ground. That way they know that being held is safe - they will never
fall or need to jump down before they are "dropped". I have 4 ex-feral
kittens myself and I'm talking real feral with biting and spitting.
Today they simply adore being held and caressed so hang in there. :)

[Liz]

Ferals do take some time to come around specially if their mother is
not near to show them the human is ok, - that is, if the mother is
friendly. Since you never had cats, you may not be familiar as to how
to handle them. A lot of people believe it's ok to pick cats and dogs
up by their forelegs or by the sides of their chest, another lot
believe picking them up by the skin behind their neck is ok, and I've
seen many cat owners let the cat jump out their lap when they're
standing or simply drop them. Some people also have a heavy hand or
play in a way that to the animal is highly annoying. I totally agree
with what Arjun said about handling cats and I'd go a bit further. I
don't let the cat slide out of my hands, I actually place them on the
ground. That way they know that being held is safe - they will never
fall or need to jump down before they are "dropped". I have 4 ex-feral
kittens myself and I'm talking real feral with biting and spitting.
Today they simply adore being held and caressed so hang in there. :)

[Julie Lim]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)

The rescue organization I got my kittens from still has their baby
pictures up, since they still have two littermates there:
http://catnet.stanford.edu/adoption/ohio_kittens.html (Toledo is now
Spot and Columbus is now Shadow.)

The day I was originally supposed to pick them up, Sahdow (the shy
one) ripped open his front leg on a rough edge of their cage door and
needed stitches all the way from wrist to elbow. The stitches are out
now, but there's still a large round scab at one end-- I'm supposed to
keep applying antibiotic ointment, but it was so traumatic for both of
us that I stopped after a few days. His attitude has been improving
since then, and he's been having odd "conversations" with me from a
distance, where he makes short meows and I try to copy them. (He keeps
looking at Spot as if expecting him to join in. I've only heard Spot
meow twice; most of the time he just makes that tribble noise.)

Until just recently, I was leaving dry kibble out all the time because
I couldn't manage four regularly-spaced feedings per day on my
schedule, but then I noticed that ants had noticed the perpetual food
source too. So I cleaned up the feeding area so it would be a bit less
antic, and I've been giving them a total of 1.5 cups of food every
day, spaced out about every eight hours unless they haven't finished
the previous 1/2 cup yet. They definitely come running now when they
hear the bowl being filled.

And I knew about how to pick cats up, but not so much about putting
them back down-- I'll have to keep that in mind next time. I stopped
trying because it just seemed to make them more nervous, but maybe
they'll warm up to the idea in time. I think one of my big main
mistakes in the past was trying to pet them while they were still
hyper from a play session, instead of lounging out all sleepy-like
where it's too much trouble to move unless you're actually being
eaten.

The past 24 hours have been a real breakthrough-- for some reason, I
hadn't thought about lying down on the floor to read instead of
sitting up; by the time I was halfway through my first catalog, they
were poking at my socks and jeans. Eventually they ended up wrestling
each other on the back of my knees. (Putting bits of dried anchovies
on my butt seemed to encourage their approach.) And this morning, both
of them submitted to being scritched until I started to get leg cramps
and had to move-- yay!!! Now I just have to convince them that my lap
is a safe place, vagina dentata jokes aside.

Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
around in cat euphoria all day :)

[Julie Lim]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)

The rescue organization I got my kittens from still has their baby
pictures up, since they still have two littermates there:
http://catnet.stanford.edu/adoption/ohio_kittens.html (Toledo is now
Spot and Columbus is now Shadow.)

The day I was originally supposed to pick them up, Sahdow (the shy
one) ripped open his front leg on a rough edge of their cage door and
needed stitches all the way from wrist to elbow. The stitches are out
now, but there's still a large round scab at one end-- I'm supposed to
keep applying antibiotic ointment, but it was so traumatic for both of
us that I stopped after a few days. His attitude has been improving
since then, and he's been having odd "conversations" with me from a
distance, where he makes short meows and I try to copy them. (He keeps
looking at Spot as if expecting him to join in. I've only heard Spot
meow twice; most of the time he just makes that tribble noise.)

Until just recently, I was leaving dry kibble out all the time because
I couldn't manage four regularly-spaced feedings per day on my
schedule, but then I noticed that ants had noticed the perpetual food
source too. So I cleaned up the feeding area so it would be a bit less
antic, and I've been giving them a total of 1.5 cups of food every
day, spaced out about every eight hours unless they haven't finished
the previous 1/2 cup yet. They definitely come running now when they
hear the bowl being filled.

And I knew about how to pick cats up, but not so much about putting
them back down-- I'll have to keep that in mind next time. I stopped
trying because it just seemed to make them more nervous, but maybe
they'll warm up to the idea in time. I think one of my big main
mistakes in the past was trying to pet them while they were still
hyper from a play session, instead of lounging out all sleepy-like
where it's too much trouble to move unless you're actually being
eaten.

The past 24 hours have been a real breakthrough-- for some reason, I
hadn't thought about lying down on the floor to read instead of
sitting up; by the time I was halfway through my first catalog, they
were poking at my socks and jeans. Eventually they ended up wrestling
each other on the back of my knees. (Putting bits of dried anchovies
on my butt seemed to encourage their approach.) And this morning, both
of them submitted to being scritched until I started to get leg cramps
and had to move-- yay!!! Now I just have to convince them that my lap
is a safe place, vagina dentata jokes aside.

Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
around in cat euphoria all day :)

[Karen Chuplis]

in article , Julie Lim at
wrote on 7/26/03 3:59 PM:

> Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)
>
> The rescue organization I got my kittens from still has their baby
> pictures up, since they still have two littermates there:
> http://catnet.stanford.edu/adoption/ohio_kittens.html (Toledo is now
> Spot and Columbus is now Shadow.)
>
> The day I was originally supposed to pick them up, Sahdow (the shy
> one) ripped open his front leg on a rough edge of their cage door and
> needed stitches all the way from wrist to elbow. The stitches are out
> now, but there's still a large round scab at one end-- I'm supposed to
> keep applying antibiotic ointment, but it was so traumatic for both of
> us that I stopped after a few days. His attitude has been improving
> since then, and he's been having odd "conversations" with me from a
> distance, where he makes short meows and I try to copy them. (He keeps
> looking at Spot as if expecting him to join in. I've only heard Spot
> meow twice; most of the time he just makes that tribble noise.)
>
> Until just recently, I was leaving dry kibble out all the time because
> I couldn't manage four regularly-spaced feedings per day on my
> schedule, but then I noticed that ants had noticed the perpetual food
> source too. So I cleaned up the feeding area so it would be a bit less
> antic, and I've been giving them a total of 1.5 cups of food every
> day, spaced out about every eight hours unless they haven't finished
> the previous 1/2 cup yet. They definitely come running now when they
> hear the bowl being filled.
>
> And I knew about how to pick cats up, but not so much about putting
> them back down-- I'll have to keep that in mind next time. I stopped
> trying because it just seemed to make them more nervous, but maybe
> they'll warm up to the idea in time. I think one of my big main
> mistakes in the past was trying to pet them while they were still
> hyper from a play session, instead of lounging out all sleepy-like
> where it's too much trouble to move unless you're actually being
> eaten.
>
> The past 24 hours have been a real breakthrough-- for some reason, I
> hadn't thought about lying down on the floor to read instead of
> sitting up; by the time I was halfway through my first catalog, they
> were poking at my socks and jeans. Eventually they ended up wrestling
> each other on the back of my knees. (Putting bits of dried anchovies
> on my butt seemed to encourage their approach.) And this morning, both
> of them submitted to being scritched until I started to get leg cramps
> and had to move-- yay!!! Now I just have to convince them that my lap
> is a safe place, vagina dentata jokes aside.
>
> Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
> around in cat euphoria all day :)

Cool! They are sure pretty. Sorry about the leg. I hope it heals well. Poor
little guy had a lot of trauma all at one time.

Karen

[Karen Chuplis]

in article , Julie Lim at
wrote on 7/26/03 3:59 PM:

> Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)
>
> The rescue organization I got my kittens from still has their baby
> pictures up, since they still have two littermates there:
> http://catnet.stanford.edu/adoption/ohio_kittens.html (Toledo is now
> Spot and Columbus is now Shadow.)
>
> The day I was originally supposed to pick them up, Sahdow (the shy
> one) ripped open his front leg on a rough edge of their cage door and
> needed stitches all the way from wrist to elbow. The stitches are out
> now, but there's still a large round scab at one end-- I'm supposed to
> keep applying antibiotic ointment, but it was so traumatic for both of
> us that I stopped after a few days. His attitude has been improving
> since then, and he's been having odd "conversations" with me from a
> distance, where he makes short meows and I try to copy them. (He keeps
> looking at Spot as if expecting him to join in. I've only heard Spot
> meow twice; most of the time he just makes that tribble noise.)
>
> Until just recently, I was leaving dry kibble out all the time because
> I couldn't manage four regularly-spaced feedings per day on my
> schedule, but then I noticed that ants had noticed the perpetual food
> source too. So I cleaned up the feeding area so it would be a bit less
> antic, and I've been giving them a total of 1.5 cups of food every
> day, spaced out about every eight hours unless they haven't finished
> the previous 1/2 cup yet. They definitely come running now when they
> hear the bowl being filled.
>
> And I knew about how to pick cats up, but not so much about putting
> them back down-- I'll have to keep that in mind next time. I stopped
> trying because it just seemed to make them more nervous, but maybe
> they'll warm up to the idea in time. I think one of my big main
> mistakes in the past was trying to pet them while they were still
> hyper from a play session, instead of lounging out all sleepy-like
> where it's too much trouble to move unless you're actually being
> eaten.
>
> The past 24 hours have been a real breakthrough-- for some reason, I
> hadn't thought about lying down on the floor to read instead of
> sitting up; by the time I was halfway through my first catalog, they
> were poking at my socks and jeans. Eventually they ended up wrestling
> each other on the back of my knees. (Putting bits of dried anchovies
> on my butt seemed to encourage their approach.) And this morning, both
> of them submitted to being scritched until I started to get leg cramps
> and had to move-- yay!!! Now I just have to convince them that my lap
> is a safe place, vagina dentata jokes aside.
>
> Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
> around in cat euphoria all day :)

Cool! They are sure pretty. Sorry about the leg. I hope it heals well. Poor
little guy had a lot of trauma all at one time.

Karen

[PattyC]

"Julie Lim" > wrote in message
om...
> Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)
<snip some info>
> Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
> around in cat euphoria all day :)

Hi Julie,

This post made me smile. I was just thinking today about when I got my
first two cats (just a few years ago, and I'd never had a cat before). What
I was thinking about today was the part when I'd called my best friend to
say how amazing and interesting they were, how they were so amusing and fun,
I couldn't even bother with watching TV. I told her, I am so entanced with
them, this is like being in LOVE! Her reply was, hey, it's way better than
being in love! There's way more positive stuff than with love!!

I can't believe I didn't know about this good stuff till so late in life...

PattyC

[PattyC]

"Julie Lim" > wrote in message
om...
> Wow, thanks for all the great advice from everyone! :)
<snip some info>
> Sorry if this post is a bit giddy; I'm probably going to be bouncing
> around in cat euphoria all day :)

Hi Julie,

This post made me smile. I was just thinking today about when I got my
first two cats (just a few years ago, and I'd never had a cat before). What
I was thinking about today was the part when I'd called my best friend to
say how amazing and interesting they were, how they were so amusing and fun,
I couldn't even bother with watching TV. I told her, I am so entanced with
them, this is like being in LOVE! Her reply was, hey, it's way better than
being in love! There's way more positive stuff than with love!!

I can't believe I didn't know about this good stuff till so late in life...

PattyC