Diabetic Cat

[Stephen Ward]

Our cat Sam (large, neutered male, about 7 years of age) has recently been
diagnosed with diabetes.

However, we're having trouble getting him stabilised. Already he's on 12
units of PZI a day, which apparently is extremely high.

Does anbody else have a cat on such a high dose? Is it that unusual?

Regards
Stephen Ward

[Sarah]

"Sarah" > wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...

>
> If you haven't already, you might want to visit www.felinediabetes.com and
> www.petdiabetes.org. On the latter site, you can join a mailing list made
> up of owners of diabetic pets. I belonged to this list for a couple of
> years when I was caring for a diabetic cat and found it very helpful.

Oops, the mailing list I belonged to is at www.petdiabetes.com, but the one
at petdiabetes.org looks helpful as well...

[Sarah]

"Sarah" > wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...

>
> If you haven't already, you might want to visit www.felinediabetes.com and
> www.petdiabetes.org. On the latter site, you can join a mailing list made
> up of owners of diabetic pets. I belonged to this list for a couple of
> years when I was caring for a diabetic cat and found it very helpful.

Oops, the mailing list I belonged to is at www.petdiabetes.com, but the one
at petdiabetes.org looks helpful as well...

[Hank]

What kind of food has you cat been given the past 7 years?

[Hank]

What kind of food has you cat been given the past 7 years?

[Liz]

> I know personally a Type II diabetic. It took months to get his
> carb/sugar intake fixed and a proper insulin injection regimen dialed
> in right. I agree that if you sharply reduce sugars without a proper
> corresponding insulin reduction ... you can go into a coma and
> possibly die.

True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from blood
by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In type II
diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot a gallon of
insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response. But obviously Phil
does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
without any background. In people, around 90% of diabetics are type
II, or non-insulin dependent, also called senile diabetes.

This cat could be type I and is not responding to this specific
insulin. Insulin from different species have slightly different shapes
so some are effective to some individuals and some are not (the
clinging must occur for the cell to respond to insulin). For the
clinging to occur, the key must fit the lock perfectly.

http://www.vetstop.com.au/Info/DMFeline.htm

[Liz]

> I know personally a Type II diabetic. It took months to get his
> carb/sugar intake fixed and a proper insulin injection regimen dialed
> in right. I agree that if you sharply reduce sugars without a proper
> corresponding insulin reduction ... you can go into a coma and
> possibly die.

True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from blood
by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In type II
diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot a gallon of
insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response. But obviously Phil
does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
without any background. In people, around 90% of diabetics are type
II, or non-insulin dependent, also called senile diabetes.

This cat could be type I and is not responding to this specific
insulin. Insulin from different species have slightly different shapes
so some are effective to some individuals and some are not (the
clinging must occur for the cell to respond to insulin). For the
clinging to occur, the key must fit the lock perfectly.

http://www.vetstop.com.au/Info/DMFeline.htm

[Phil P.]

"Liz" > wrote in message
om...

But obviously Phil
> does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
> without any background.

Really? You're not only a nut cat (the opinion of 4 out of 4 vets who read
your asinine theories) and dangerous to cats, you're a complete and total
mindless fool! ROTFL! Almost every one in this group *knows* I've been
managing diabetic cats for more than *10 years*! I've helped several people
regulate their cats! ROTFLMAO!

Its really *you* who has absolutely *no* background or experience treating
or managing diabetic cats... or any cat for that matter!

I just love it when you shoot yourself in the foot trying to shoot me!
ROTFLMAO!

[Phil P.]

"Liz" > wrote in message
om...

But obviously Phil
> does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
> without any background.

Really? You're not only a nut cat (the opinion of 4 out of 4 vets who read
your asinine theories) and dangerous to cats, you're a complete and total
mindless fool! ROTFL! Almost every one in this group *knows* I've been
managing diabetic cats for more than *10 years*! I've helped several people
regulate their cats! ROTFLMAO!

Its really *you* who has absolutely *no* background or experience treating
or managing diabetic cats... or any cat for that matter!

I just love it when you shoot yourself in the foot trying to shoot me!
ROTFLMAO!

[Marek Williams]

On 8 Oct 2003 08:38:20 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
>glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from blood
>by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In type II
>diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot a gallon of
>insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response. But obviously Phil
>does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
>without any background. In people, around 90% of diabetics are type
>II, or non-insulin dependent, also called senile diabetes.

Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it then?

You might be interested to know that there are over a dozen different
causes of diabetes, roughly categorized as Type 1 and Type 2. (In
other words, there exist numerous causes of Type 2.) All, both Type 1
and Type 2, respond to increased insulin. In this respect there is no
difference between humans and cats. Injected insulin has the same
effect on the cell wall stoma as endogenous insulin; the more insulin
in the blood stream, the more the stoma open up.

Oh, and there is no such thing as "true" Type 2 diabetes. In fact,
there are no two patients who present exactly the same causes.
Determining the proper therapy is always a trial and error process.
But insulin is still the drug of choice for all kinds of diabetes
because it is the most benign and is easiest to control.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Marek Williams]

On 8 Oct 2003 08:38:20 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
>glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from blood
>by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In type II
>diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot a gallon of
>insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response. But obviously Phil
>does not know this. That´s what happens when one just copies away
>without any background. In people, around 90% of diabetics are type
>II, or non-insulin dependent, also called senile diabetes.

Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it then?

You might be interested to know that there are over a dozen different
causes of diabetes, roughly categorized as Type 1 and Type 2. (In
other words, there exist numerous causes of Type 2.) All, both Type 1
and Type 2, respond to increased insulin. In this respect there is no
difference between humans and cats. Injected insulin has the same
effect on the cell wall stoma as endogenous insulin; the more insulin
in the blood stream, the more the stoma open up.

Oh, and there is no such thing as "true" Type 2 diabetes. In fact,
there are no two patients who present exactly the same causes.
Determining the proper therapy is always a trial and error process.
But insulin is still the drug of choice for all kinds of diabetes
because it is the most benign and is easiest to control.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Phil P.]

"-L." > wrote in message
m...

> Phil -
>
> Just out of curiousity, have you heard of or tried methods of diet
> modification (lower carb) and L-cartinine supplementation for
> diabetics? I know of a vet in San Jose who is doing this with her
> diabetic patients with great results - I personally know one kitty
> that is now non-insulin dependent because of this protocol. I don't
> know if it is published yet or not, though. What have you heard/seen
> on the subject?

I followed Drs. Greco's and Peterson's research from the beginning because
it was of great interest to me. Diabetes is more common in the aging feline
population. We're a no-kill organization so many of our cats are older.

I was able to wean several cats off of insulin completely and significantly
reduce the insulin dose in others by feeding a high-protein,
low-carbohydrate diet (you should find several of my old posts about this in
the Goggle archives). However, the plan is not suited for, nor does it work
with every cat. For example, diabetic cats in early-to-mid stage CRF can
become azotemic fairly quickly from catobolizing the high-protein diet. The
plan also doesn't work very well with cats that have IDDM - and more than
half the cats with diabetes have IDDM..

Send me your email address and I'll send you some literature.

Phil

[Phil P.]

"-L." > wrote in message
m...

> Phil -
>
> Just out of curiousity, have you heard of or tried methods of diet
> modification (lower carb) and L-cartinine supplementation for
> diabetics? I know of a vet in San Jose who is doing this with her
> diabetic patients with great results - I personally know one kitty
> that is now non-insulin dependent because of this protocol. I don't
> know if it is published yet or not, though. What have you heard/seen
> on the subject?

I followed Drs. Greco's and Peterson's research from the beginning because
it was of great interest to me. Diabetes is more common in the aging feline
population. We're a no-kill organization so many of our cats are older.

I was able to wean several cats off of insulin completely and significantly
reduce the insulin dose in others by feeding a high-protein,
low-carbohydrate diet (you should find several of my old posts about this in
the Goggle archives). However, the plan is not suited for, nor does it work
with every cat. For example, diabetic cats in early-to-mid stage CRF can
become azotemic fairly quickly from catobolizing the high-protein diet. The
plan also doesn't work very well with cats that have IDDM - and more than
half the cats with diabetes have IDDM..

Send me your email address and I'll send you some literature.

Phil

[Liz]

> Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it then?

That is a question I ask myself. I have read texts that say exactly
what you are saying of all the different pictures in type II, some
that respond, some that do not, some that do not respond in the
beginning and respond some time later, etc. And in this cauldron you
will find a lot of people (and cats) who do not respond to any kind of
insulin whatsoever. They have plenty of insulin in their blood and
they are diabetic.

IMO these two categories of diabetes were established long before we
knew any better. Type one, considered insulin-dependent, also called
juvenile diabetes, and type two, considered non-insulin-dependent,
also called senile diabetes. If a person develops diabetes late in
life and responds to insulin, should we call it type I or II? By
convention we call it type II but why do we do that if the person
responds to insulin? I think it´s about time they review these names
and start throwing more categories in there.

> All, both Type 1
> and Type 2, respond to increased insulin.

You will find many pages on the net stating that this is not true. I
strongly suggest you go to this page and read the articles linked
there:

http://www.bugsbest.com/insresis.htm

And don´t miss this one: High Insulin Levels Tied to Heart Disease

I understand the original poster said his cat was on 12 units of
insulin and ****not responding.****

[Liz]

> Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it then?

That is a question I ask myself. I have read texts that say exactly
what you are saying of all the different pictures in type II, some
that respond, some that do not, some that do not respond in the
beginning and respond some time later, etc. And in this cauldron you
will find a lot of people (and cats) who do not respond to any kind of
insulin whatsoever. They have plenty of insulin in their blood and
they are diabetic.

IMO these two categories of diabetes were established long before we
knew any better. Type one, considered insulin-dependent, also called
juvenile diabetes, and type two, considered non-insulin-dependent,
also called senile diabetes. If a person develops diabetes late in
life and responds to insulin, should we call it type I or II? By
convention we call it type II but why do we do that if the person
responds to insulin? I think it´s about time they review these names
and start throwing more categories in there.

> All, both Type 1
> and Type 2, respond to increased insulin.

You will find many pages on the net stating that this is not true. I
strongly suggest you go to this page and read the articles linked
there:

http://www.bugsbest.com/insresis.htm

And don´t miss this one: High Insulin Levels Tied to Heart Disease

I understand the original poster said his cat was on 12 units of
insulin and ****not responding.****

[Philip ®]

In ,
Marek Williams > being of bellicose mind posted:
> On 8 Oct 2003 08:38:20 -0700, (Liz) dijo:
>
> > True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
> > glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from
> > blood by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In
> > type II diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot
> > a gallon of insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response.
> > But obviously Phil does not know this. That´s what happens when
> > one just copies away without any background. In people, around
> > 90% of diabetics are type II, or non-insulin dependent, also
> > called senile diabetes.
>
> Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it
> then?
>
> You might be interested to know that there are over a dozen
> different causes of diabetes, roughly categorized as Type 1 and
> Type 2. (In other words, there exist numerous causes of Type 2.)
> All, both Type 1 and Type 2, respond to increased insulin. In this
> respect there is no difference between humans and cats. Injected
> insulin has the same effect on the cell wall stoma as endogenous
> insulin; the more insulin in the blood stream, the more the stoma
> open up.
>
> Oh, and there is no such thing as "true" Type 2 diabetes. In fact,
> there are no two patients who present exactly the same causes.
> Determining the proper therapy is always a trial and error process.
> But insulin is still the drug of choice for all kinds of diabetes
> because it is the most benign and is easiest to control.

Insulin is "benign?" Some murders have occured as well as numerous
unintended deaths from too much insulin.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

[Philip ®]

In ,
Marek Williams > being of bellicose mind posted:
> On 8 Oct 2003 08:38:20 -0700, (Liz) dijo:
>
> > True type II diabetes does not respond to insulin unless there´s
> > glucose toxicity. Insulin tells a cell to take up glucose from
> > blood by clinging to a protein on the surface of the cell. In
> > type II diabetes, this clinging does not occur so you can shoot
> > a gallon of insulin in a type II diabetic and get no response.
> > But obviously Phil does not know this. That´s what happens when
> > one just copies away without any background. In people, around
> > 90% of diabetics are type II, or non-insulin dependent, also
> > called senile diabetes.
>
> Hmmm. Why are all my Type 2 friends using insulin to control it
> then?
>
> You might be interested to know that there are over a dozen
> different causes of diabetes, roughly categorized as Type 1 and
> Type 2. (In other words, there exist numerous causes of Type 2.)
> All, both Type 1 and Type 2, respond to increased insulin. In this
> respect there is no difference between humans and cats. Injected
> insulin has the same effect on the cell wall stoma as endogenous
> insulin; the more insulin in the blood stream, the more the stoma
> open up.
>
> Oh, and there is no such thing as "true" Type 2 diabetes. In fact,
> there are no two patients who present exactly the same causes.
> Determining the proper therapy is always a trial and error process.
> But insulin is still the drug of choice for all kinds of diabetes
> because it is the most benign and is easiest to control.

Insulin is "benign?" Some murders have occured as well as numerous
unintended deaths from too much insulin.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

[-L.]

"Phil P." > wrote in message >...
> "-L." > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > Phil -
> >
> > Just out of curiousity, have you heard of or tried methods of diet
> > modification (lower carb) and L-cartinine supplementation for
> > diabetics? I know of a vet in San Jose who is doing this with her
> > diabetic patients with great results - I personally know one kitty
> > that is now non-insulin dependent because of this protocol. I don't
> > know if it is published yet or not, though. What have you heard/seen
> > on the subject?
>
> I followed Drs. Greco's and Peterson's research from the beginning because
> it was of great interest to me. Diabetes is more common in the aging feline
> population. We're a no-kill organization so many of our cats are older.
>
> I was able to wean several cats off of insulin completely and significantly
> reduce the insulin dose in others by feeding a high-protein,
> low-carbohydrate diet (you should find several of my old posts about this in
> the Goggle archives). However, the plan is not suited for, nor does it work
> with every cat. For example, diabetic cats in early-to-mid stage CRF can
> become azotemic fairly quickly from catobolizing the high-protein diet. The
> plan also doesn't work very well with cats that have IDDM - and more than
> half the cats with diabetes have IDDM..
>
> Send me your email address and I'll send you some literature.
>
> Phil

primoturtle (at) yahoo (dot) com
Thanks!

-L.

[-L.]

"Phil P." > wrote in message >...
> "-L." > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > Phil -
> >
> > Just out of curiousity, have you heard of or tried methods of diet
> > modification (lower carb) and L-cartinine supplementation for
> > diabetics? I know of a vet in San Jose who is doing this with her
> > diabetic patients with great results - I personally know one kitty
> > that is now non-insulin dependent because of this protocol. I don't
> > know if it is published yet or not, though. What have you heard/seen
> > on the subject?
>
> I followed Drs. Greco's and Peterson's research from the beginning because
> it was of great interest to me. Diabetes is more common in the aging feline
> population. We're a no-kill organization so many of our cats are older.
>
> I was able to wean several cats off of insulin completely and significantly
> reduce the insulin dose in others by feeding a high-protein,
> low-carbohydrate diet (you should find several of my old posts about this in
> the Goggle archives). However, the plan is not suited for, nor does it work
> with every cat. For example, diabetic cats in early-to-mid stage CRF can
> become azotemic fairly quickly from catobolizing the high-protein diet. The
> plan also doesn't work very well with cats that have IDDM - and more than
> half the cats with diabetes have IDDM..
>
> Send me your email address and I'll send you some literature.
>
> Phil

primoturtle (at) yahoo (dot) com
Thanks!

-L.

[Marek Williams]

On 9 Oct 2003 09:37:30 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>IMO these two categories of diabetes were established long before we
>knew any better. Type one, considered insulin-dependent, also called
>juvenile diabetes, and type two, considered non-insulin-dependent,
>also called senile diabetes. If a person develops diabetes late in
>life and responds to insulin, should we call it type I or II? By
>convention we call it type II but why do we do that if the person
>responds to insulin? I think it´s about time they review these names
>and start throwing more categories in there.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the definitions of Type 1 and
Type 2. Whether the individual is dependent on insulin or not is
irrelevant. Type 1 means the body's production of insulin is impaired.
Type 2 means the body is producing plenty of insulin, but it's not
working as well as it should. This is usually caused by resistance,
but is also caused by overweight, among other issues. In all cases,
however, adding exogenous insulin reduces blood sugar levels. If the
patient is resistant (a typical Type 2), then it may take very large
amounts. But the increased insulin will lower blood sugar; it's just a
question of how much.

I might add that there is also a Type 1.5 (I'm not making that up, you
can find the term used in medical journals). A Type 1.5 is someone who
has impaired production (Type 1), and the insulin is also not working
properly (Type 2). I became diabetic at age 9 when I lost about 2/3 my
native production. An adult Type 1 who has lost all production will
use about 30-40 units a day. I used about 20 units a day until my
mid-40s. Then I noted my BG was increasing in spite of the insulin.
Today I use about 80 units a day. The increased requirement is simply
because I am also becoming resistant. Luckily there is no shortage of
insulin. I know some Type 2s who are using over 200 units a day, yet
other Type 2s of the same age and body weight need only a fraction of
that amount.

>> All, both Type 1
>> and Type 2, respond to increased insulin.
>
>You will find many pages on the net stating that this is not true. I
>strongly suggest you go to this page and read the articles linked
>there:

You can find a lot of things on the net that are not true. I trust
what I read in medical journals.

I do realize that some Type 2s are so resistant that it may appear
that the insulin is not working. They are wrong -- it is working; it's
just that they haven't got the dosage high enough yet. And there are
even a few who are so resistant that it might take scary amounts to
bring them under control.

There are also a lot of Type 2s who respond better to some of the new
-glitazones. The first of these came out about ten years ago
(troglitazone). Unfortunately, it caused a couple deaths and was
pulled from the market. It seems it was harder on the liver than they
originally thought. We now have pioglitazone and rosiglitazone, which
seem to have no such problems. They work by increasing the sensitivity
of the cells to the insulin, effectively reducing the resistance. For
a resistant Type 2, this is an ideal therapy. Unfortunately, there are
various causes of the resistance, and many patients do not respond to
either drug. (Neither has any effect on the resistance portion of my
condition.) I don't know if anyone has tried either of them on cats or
other animals, but I'd assume they'd probably work. Diabetes in most
animals is practically the same as it is in humans -- same causes.

>And don´t miss this one: High Insulin Levels Tied to Heart Disease

Hyperinsulinemia is connected with increased risk of heart disease,
but it is slight. Hyperglycemia also leads to heart disease, plus many
other problems, and it is a far worse cause of heart disease than
hyperinsulinemia. I said insulin is the most benign; I did not mean to
imply that it is harmless. Sometimes you have to choose the least
toxic poison.

>I understand the original poster said his cat was on 12 units of
>insulin and ****not responding.****

Then the cat needs more insulin.

There are a couple other possibilities. For example, insulin loses its
potency over time. Excessive heat makes it deteriorate faster. At room
temperature it loses only 1-2% per month, but if it goes over 35C it
may lose half its potency in a matter of hours. The hotter it gets the
faster the degradation. What if the OP was using some bad insulin?

Insulin also takes a while to act. It is designed to be absorbed
slowly. What if the original poster injected the cat and then tested
five minutes later?

There are other possible explanations as well. I'm not saying any of
the above are what actually happened. I'm just saying that increased
insulin ALWAYS lowers blood sugar. How much varies a lot, so it may
appear at first that it is not working.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Marek Williams]

On 9 Oct 2003 09:37:30 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>IMO these two categories of diabetes were established long before we
>knew any better. Type one, considered insulin-dependent, also called
>juvenile diabetes, and type two, considered non-insulin-dependent,
>also called senile diabetes. If a person develops diabetes late in
>life and responds to insulin, should we call it type I or II? By
>convention we call it type II but why do we do that if the person
>responds to insulin? I think it´s about time they review these names
>and start throwing more categories in there.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the definitions of Type 1 and
Type 2. Whether the individual is dependent on insulin or not is
irrelevant. Type 1 means the body's production of insulin is impaired.
Type 2 means the body is producing plenty of insulin, but it's not
working as well as it should. This is usually caused by resistance,
but is also caused by overweight, among other issues. In all cases,
however, adding exogenous insulin reduces blood sugar levels. If the
patient is resistant (a typical Type 2), then it may take very large
amounts. But the increased insulin will lower blood sugar; it's just a
question of how much.

I might add that there is also a Type 1.5 (I'm not making that up, you
can find the term used in medical journals). A Type 1.5 is someone who
has impaired production (Type 1), and the insulin is also not working
properly (Type 2). I became diabetic at age 9 when I lost about 2/3 my
native production. An adult Type 1 who has lost all production will
use about 30-40 units a day. I used about 20 units a day until my
mid-40s. Then I noted my BG was increasing in spite of the insulin.
Today I use about 80 units a day. The increased requirement is simply
because I am also becoming resistant. Luckily there is no shortage of
insulin. I know some Type 2s who are using over 200 units a day, yet
other Type 2s of the same age and body weight need only a fraction of
that amount.

>> All, both Type 1
>> and Type 2, respond to increased insulin.
>
>You will find many pages on the net stating that this is not true. I
>strongly suggest you go to this page and read the articles linked
>there:

You can find a lot of things on the net that are not true. I trust
what I read in medical journals.

I do realize that some Type 2s are so resistant that it may appear
that the insulin is not working. They are wrong -- it is working; it's
just that they haven't got the dosage high enough yet. And there are
even a few who are so resistant that it might take scary amounts to
bring them under control.

There are also a lot of Type 2s who respond better to some of the new
-glitazones. The first of these came out about ten years ago
(troglitazone). Unfortunately, it caused a couple deaths and was
pulled from the market. It seems it was harder on the liver than they
originally thought. We now have pioglitazone and rosiglitazone, which
seem to have no such problems. They work by increasing the sensitivity
of the cells to the insulin, effectively reducing the resistance. For
a resistant Type 2, this is an ideal therapy. Unfortunately, there are
various causes of the resistance, and many patients do not respond to
either drug. (Neither has any effect on the resistance portion of my
condition.) I don't know if anyone has tried either of them on cats or
other animals, but I'd assume they'd probably work. Diabetes in most
animals is practically the same as it is in humans -- same causes.

>And don´t miss this one: High Insulin Levels Tied to Heart Disease

Hyperinsulinemia is connected with increased risk of heart disease,
but it is slight. Hyperglycemia also leads to heart disease, plus many
other problems, and it is a far worse cause of heart disease than
hyperinsulinemia. I said insulin is the most benign; I did not mean to
imply that it is harmless. Sometimes you have to choose the least
toxic poison.

>I understand the original poster said his cat was on 12 units of
>insulin and ****not responding.****

Then the cat needs more insulin.

There are a couple other possibilities. For example, insulin loses its
potency over time. Excessive heat makes it deteriorate faster. At room
temperature it loses only 1-2% per month, but if it goes over 35C it
may lose half its potency in a matter of hours. The hotter it gets the
faster the degradation. What if the OP was using some bad insulin?

Insulin also takes a while to act. It is designed to be absorbed
slowly. What if the original poster injected the cat and then tested
five minutes later?

There are other possible explanations as well. I'm not saying any of
the above are what actually happened. I'm just saying that increased
insulin ALWAYS lowers blood sugar. How much varies a lot, so it may
appear at first that it is not working.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Stephen Ward]

Thanks very much to all of you who have responded to my posting.

I've gleaned a lot of useful information from all of the replies and ensuing
thread(s).

Some of you have requested further information about Sam:

- He's a large, neutered male, about 7 years old (we think - we got him
from a Cat Rescue centre!). He weighs 6.6 Kgs (14lbs) but is not obese -
he's relatively sleek and well-proportioned for his size.

- He's on a prescription diabetic diet - Hill's Feline w/d, a dry cat food
that we have here in the U.K. He also has a small portion of tinned cat food
(Whiskas Senior - which he loves!) for breakfast to ensure that he's had
something to eat before administering his insulin injection.

- The vet has had him in for 24hrs to do a glucose curve, just to make sure
that he's not 'insulin-resistant'. He responded well.

- Although he's up to 12 units of PZI a day, we're reasonably hopeful that
he's close to being stabilised. (Incidentally, injecting him twice daily is
out of the question for us due to our work-shift patterns - we can only
guarantee that one of us is around in the morning).

- He goes back to the vet in about 10 days for another blood test
(fructosamine, I think!). Let's hope he's there!

Thanks again, everybody

Regards
Stephen Ward

[Stephen Ward]

Thanks very much to all of you who have responded to my posting.

I've gleaned a lot of useful information from all of the replies and ensuing
thread(s).

Some of you have requested further information about Sam:

- He's a large, neutered male, about 7 years old (we think - we got him
from a Cat Rescue centre!). He weighs 6.6 Kgs (14lbs) but is not obese -
he's relatively sleek and well-proportioned for his size.

- He's on a prescription diabetic diet - Hill's Feline w/d, a dry cat food
that we have here in the U.K. He also has a small portion of tinned cat food
(Whiskas Senior - which he loves!) for breakfast to ensure that he's had
something to eat before administering his insulin injection.

- The vet has had him in for 24hrs to do a glucose curve, just to make sure
that he's not 'insulin-resistant'. He responded well.

- Although he's up to 12 units of PZI a day, we're reasonably hopeful that
he's close to being stabilised. (Incidentally, injecting him twice daily is
out of the question for us due to our work-shift patterns - we can only
guarantee that one of us is around in the morning).

- He goes back to the vet in about 10 days for another blood test
(fructosamine, I think!). Let's hope he's there!

Thanks again, everybody

Regards
Stephen Ward

[Liz]

Thank you for the input. I believe all the articles linked in that
page have been published in medical journals since they are all based
on studies.

Do you control what you eat? To what extent do carbs affect your blood
glucose? If you ate less carbs, would you need less insulin?

[Liz]

Thank you for the input. I believe all the articles linked in that
page have been published in medical journals since they are all based
on studies.

Do you control what you eat? To what extent do carbs affect your blood
glucose? If you ate less carbs, would you need less insulin?

[Marek Williams]

On 10 Oct 2003 06:52:54 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>Do you control what you eat? To what extent do carbs affect your blood
>glucose? If you ate less carbs, would you need less insulin?

If I change what I eat it will require that I change the type and
timing of the insulin, but cutting down on carbs has only a slight
effect on the total amount needed. When I was a kid all we had was
that awful old Toronto insulin, and huge toadstabber needles to inject
it with. You had to eat to match the insulin because there was only
one kind of insulin. Today we have insulin with all kinds of different
activity curves. This gives us the ability to match the insulin to the
food, making life a lot easier. Last Sunday I went to a potluck where
the dessert table was overflowing. Many of my friends were amazed as I
loaded up on pie and cake. What they didn't know was that I had
injected a large amount of a very fast-acting insulin to cover the
carbs. My BG never went much above normal.

I realize that the majority of the populace thinks that diabetics
cannot eat sugar. That is old hat. With modern insulin a diabetic can
eat anything that a non-diabetic can eat.

I should also steer you to the glycemic index. It is list of common
foods together with the speed with which the gut converts them to
sugar. People new to the index are usually surprised to find that
white bread has practically the same glycemic index rating as table
sugar, as does fruit sugar (fructose). However, different whole fruits
have different index ratings. Grapes, for example, send me up very
fast, but the same amount of calories in the form of an apple takes
twice as long. The reason is not because of a difference in the sugar
-- both are full of fructose -- but rather because the sugar in the
apple is bound up in the fiber. It takes the gut longer to get at the
sugar.

Having said all of that, there are some Type 2s whose condition is not
terribly advanced and they can get by just by cutting down on carbs.
The problem is that carbs are converted to blood sugar so fast, and
the beta cells cannot produce insulin fast enough when the patient
needs massive amounts due to resistance. Personally, I think most of
them should get over their needle-phobia and get some fast-acting
insulin. Then they can eat all the carbs they want.

I'm not sure what I'd do with a cat, however. I inject insulin before
every meal, varying the amount, type and timing according to what I'm
going to eat. But how can you control when and how much the cat eats?
What if you have to work all day long and can't stay home to run over
and inject the insulin every time you see the cat eating? The regimen
that works perfectly for me would be just about impossible with a cat.

However, it seems to me that diabetes in cats runs more or less the
same as it does in humans, that is, most of it is resistance in older
cats. In that case perhaps a couple overlapping shots of a slow-acting
insulin would give a constant additional amount, as a boost to the
cat's endogenous production. And cats shouldn't be eating all that
much carbohydrate anyway, so there would be less need for fast-acting
insulin to cover it. Of course, just like human diabetes, every
patient is somewhat different. Creating a regimen that works for a cat
is just as much a trial and error process as it is in humans. The
important thing is for the cat's owner to study up on the causes of
diabetes and the types of insulin available, then work out a treatment
that works for the particular cat.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Marek Williams]

On 10 Oct 2003 06:52:54 -0700, (Liz) dijo:

>Do you control what you eat? To what extent do carbs affect your blood
>glucose? If you ate less carbs, would you need less insulin?

If I change what I eat it will require that I change the type and
timing of the insulin, but cutting down on carbs has only a slight
effect on the total amount needed. When I was a kid all we had was
that awful old Toronto insulin, and huge toadstabber needles to inject
it with. You had to eat to match the insulin because there was only
one kind of insulin. Today we have insulin with all kinds of different
activity curves. This gives us the ability to match the insulin to the
food, making life a lot easier. Last Sunday I went to a potluck where
the dessert table was overflowing. Many of my friends were amazed as I
loaded up on pie and cake. What they didn't know was that I had
injected a large amount of a very fast-acting insulin to cover the
carbs. My BG never went much above normal.

I realize that the majority of the populace thinks that diabetics
cannot eat sugar. That is old hat. With modern insulin a diabetic can
eat anything that a non-diabetic can eat.

I should also steer you to the glycemic index. It is list of common
foods together with the speed with which the gut converts them to
sugar. People new to the index are usually surprised to find that
white bread has practically the same glycemic index rating as table
sugar, as does fruit sugar (fructose). However, different whole fruits
have different index ratings. Grapes, for example, send me up very
fast, but the same amount of calories in the form of an apple takes
twice as long. The reason is not because of a difference in the sugar
-- both are full of fructose -- but rather because the sugar in the
apple is bound up in the fiber. It takes the gut longer to get at the
sugar.

Having said all of that, there are some Type 2s whose condition is not
terribly advanced and they can get by just by cutting down on carbs.
The problem is that carbs are converted to blood sugar so fast, and
the beta cells cannot produce insulin fast enough when the patient
needs massive amounts due to resistance. Personally, I think most of
them should get over their needle-phobia and get some fast-acting
insulin. Then they can eat all the carbs they want.

I'm not sure what I'd do with a cat, however. I inject insulin before
every meal, varying the amount, type and timing according to what I'm
going to eat. But how can you control when and how much the cat eats?
What if you have to work all day long and can't stay home to run over
and inject the insulin every time you see the cat eating? The regimen
that works perfectly for me would be just about impossible with a cat.

However, it seems to me that diabetes in cats runs more or less the
same as it does in humans, that is, most of it is resistance in older
cats. In that case perhaps a couple overlapping shots of a slow-acting
insulin would give a constant additional amount, as a boost to the
cat's endogenous production. And cats shouldn't be eating all that
much carbohydrate anyway, so there would be less need for fast-acting
insulin to cover it. Of course, just like human diabetes, every
patient is somewhat different. Creating a regimen that works for a cat
is just as much a trial and error process as it is in humans. The
important thing is for the cat's owner to study up on the causes of
diabetes and the types of insulin available, then work out a treatment
that works for the particular cat.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

[Liz]

> I realize that the majority of the populace thinks that diabetics
> cannot eat sugar. That is old hat. With modern insulin a diabetic can
> eat anything that a non-diabetic can eat.

Exactly. A lot of people don´t know that carbs are sugar, so foods
like bread, rice, potatoes, pasta are equivalent to table sugar except
looks and tastes different.

> I should also steer you to the glycemic index.

I´m familiar with it but thanks! :)

> I'm not sure what I'd do with a cat, however.

For a human to live without carbs is very hard, I myself couldn´t do
it. But cats hardly have any carbs at all in their natural diet, so
where´s the logic in feeding carbs to a diabetic cat and having to
shoot insulin in them? From what I read regarding humans, proteins and
fats do not affect the glucose level of the blood in more than 2% and
I don´t think this would be any different with cats. As a matter of
fact, "in carnivores, blood glucose concentrations are more consistent
(eg, less postprandial fluctuations), because glucose is released in
small continuous boluses over a longer time frame as a result of
gluconeogenic catabolism of proteins." The carnivore connection to
nutrition in cats, Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, DACVIM*

[Liz]

> I realize that the majority of the populace thinks that diabetics
> cannot eat sugar. That is old hat. With modern insulin a diabetic can
> eat anything that a non-diabetic can eat.

Exactly. A lot of people don´t know that carbs are sugar, so foods
like bread, rice, potatoes, pasta are equivalent to table sugar except
looks and tastes different.

> I should also steer you to the glycemic index.

I´m familiar with it but thanks! :)

> I'm not sure what I'd do with a cat, however.

For a human to live without carbs is very hard, I myself couldn´t do
it. But cats hardly have any carbs at all in their natural diet, so
where´s the logic in feeding carbs to a diabetic cat and having to
shoot insulin in them? From what I read regarding humans, proteins and
fats do not affect the glucose level of the blood in more than 2% and
I don´t think this would be any different with cats. As a matter of
fact, "in carnivores, blood glucose concentrations are more consistent
(eg, less postprandial fluctuations), because glucose is released in
small continuous boluses over a longer time frame as a result of
gluconeogenic catabolism of proteins." The carnivore connection to
nutrition in cats, Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, DACVIM*

[William Hamblen]

On 2003-10-11, Liz > wrote:

> Exactly. A lot of people don´t know that carbs are sugar, so foods
> like bread, rice, potatoes, pasta are equivalent to table sugar except
> looks and tastes different.

The thing about simple sugars is that your blood glucose goes up faster.
Also sweets are concentrated so you get more carbs than you might think.
Gotta count those exchanges!

--
When the fog came in on little cat feet last night, it left these little
muddy paw prints on the hood of my car.

[William Hamblen]

On 2003-10-11, Liz > wrote:

> Exactly. A lot of people don´t know that carbs are sugar, so foods
> like bread, rice, potatoes, pasta are equivalent to table sugar except
> looks and tastes different.

The thing about simple sugars is that your blood glucose goes up faster.
Also sweets are concentrated so you get more carbs than you might think.
Gotta count those exchanges!

--
When the fog came in on little cat feet last night, it left these little
muddy paw prints on the hood of my car.

[Liz]

An article worth reading....

Diabetes and Obesity- Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM

First, let me say that there is no ONE cause of adult onset (Type II)
diabetes (diabetes mellitus or DM) in the cat. The disease, like most
diseases, is multi-factorial in the cat, as well as in humans. In
fact, the feline version of type II diabetes is more like human type
II diabetes than this condition in any other species that has been
studied.

Type II DM is not an autoimmune disease, but genetics certainly do
play a part. Certain cats are predisposed to developing adult onset
DM, while others simply are not. However, type II DM in even
predisposed cats is not commonly a matter of auto antibodies being
produced against pancreatic tissue as is true if other autoimmune
diseases (some cats do produce antibodies to injected insulin from
other species used to treat feline diabetics but that is not the same
as an autoimmune phenomenon causing the diabetes in the first place).
In fact, there are some extremely important environmental factors, and
inappropriate diet is chief among these.

The cat is an obligatory carnivore. As such, it is dependant for good
health upon a diet that is very high (greater than 50-60%) in animal
source protein. In the wild, cats seek out diets that have nutrient
profiles with at least this much protein, about 30-40% fat, and 1-2%
carbohydrate. Unfortunately, the extruded dry foods we feed our pet
cats today has a very distorted nutrient profile for cats (just as the
present, government-recommended, high carbohydrate diet for humans has
a distorted nutrient profile for humans).

Most of these dry cat foods contain very high amounts of cereal grains
in order to make it possible to put the ingredients through an
extruder to produce "popped" kibble product. The result is a food that
has 18-30% protein, 15-22% fat, and as much 40-60% predigested starch
(read sugar!). As this kind of diet has become more and more popular
as a sole diet for pet cats in our society, those pet cats have
become fatter and fatter (like people on a high carbohydrate diet,
only worse) over the past few years, and the incidence of type II DM
has soared among that same population. Ask any vet if he or she is
seeing a lot more of this disease among his/her patients than a decade
ago. The answer will be "yes!"

It is certainly true than most serious cat breeders do not have a lot
of problems with this disease. The reason is not just that those
breeders have skillfully bred genetically DM resistant cats, however,
although that can be a part of the whole story. The larger reason is
that most, if not all, breeders feed a significant amount of canned
foods and fresh raw or cooked meats. Although most breeders do provide
dry cat foods to their cats, the diet of their breeding animals is not
even close to 100% dry food, as is often the case with pet cats in 1-3
cat households.

Consumption of dry cat food causes a very rapid and extreme surge in
blood glucose as the predigested carbohydrate in the food is dissolved
and absorbed into the bloodstream essentially as sugar from the
stomach and intestines. This rapid rise in blood glucose causes the
pancreas to secret a much larger amount of insulin in response than
would be needed with a more natural, high protein, moderate fat diet.
Ultimately, the constant abnormal stimulation either suppresses or
exhausts the pancreas (we're not sure exactly which, yet), and
clinical diabetes results. This process takes months to years to
occur, depending on the individual cat's ability to withstand the
effects of this abnormal metabolic effect. Along the way, the
constant high insulin levels (hyperinsulinemia) cause the cat to
experience hypertriglyceridemia (high triglycerides) and
hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and obesity results.

Our research has shown that weight reduction in even the most obese
(but otherwise healthy) cat is no more complicated than withholding
all dry food, and providing free choice canned food or fresh meat as
the sole diet. Thus, although I agree that obesity does not cause type
II DM, DM and obesity have common causes in the cat and in humans as
well.

Excessive carbohydrate consumption, over time, causes both obesity and
strongly predisposes the cat, an obligatory carnivore, to the
metabolic "train wreak" we know as type II feline diabetes mellitus.
Once this condition exists, effective treatment absolutely requires
that a high protein, moderate fat and low carbohydrate diet be used in
these patients. High fiber diets like w/d and r/d (and their analogs
by other companies) DO NOT WORK, and they do not work because they are
loaded with carbohydrate that continues to dump sugar into the blood
stream of an animal that already has problems handling sugar.

For now, there is compelling scientific evidence to show that high
carbohydrate diets (essentially all dry cat foods) fed to pet cats on
a continuous and exclusive basis predispose to, or even directly
cause, feline obesity and type II feline diabetes mellitus. In time,
I believe we will learn that other common feline maladies, such as
hyperthyroidism and urinary tract disease, are also related to this
very abnormal and non-physiological practice of feeding large amounts
of carbohydrate to animals not at all equipped to handle this nutrient
in such quantities. Conscientious breeders will want to keep their
eyes on the research into this very important aspect of cat breeding
and proper cat husbandry.

Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM

http://rocquoone.com/diabetes_and_obesity.htm

[Liz]

An article worth reading....

Diabetes and Obesity- Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM

First, let me say that there is no ONE cause of adult onset (Type II)
diabetes (diabetes mellitus or DM) in the cat. The disease, like most
diseases, is multi-factorial in the cat, as well as in humans. In
fact, the feline version of type II diabetes is more like human type
II diabetes than this condition in any other species that has been
studied.

Type II DM is not an autoimmune disease, but genetics certainly do
play a part. Certain cats are predisposed to developing adult onset
DM, while others simply are not. However, type II DM in even
predisposed cats is not commonly a matter of auto antibodies being
produced against pancreatic tissue as is true if other autoimmune
diseases (some cats do produce antibodies to injected insulin from
other species used to treat feline diabetics but that is not the same
as an autoimmune phenomenon causing the diabetes in the first place).
In fact, there are some extremely important environmental factors, and
inappropriate diet is chief among these.

The cat is an obligatory carnivore. As such, it is dependant for good
health upon a diet that is very high (greater than 50-60%) in animal
source protein. In the wild, cats seek out diets that have nutrient
profiles with at least this much protein, about 30-40% fat, and 1-2%
carbohydrate. Unfortunately, the extruded dry foods we feed our pet
cats today has a very distorted nutrient profile for cats (just as the
present, government-recommended, high carbohydrate diet for humans has
a distorted nutrient profile for humans).

Most of these dry cat foods contain very high amounts of cereal grains
in order to make it possible to put the ingredients through an
extruder to produce "popped" kibble product. The result is a food that
has 18-30% protein, 15-22% fat, and as much 40-60% predigested starch
(read sugar!). As this kind of diet has become more and more popular
as a sole diet for pet cats in our society, those pet cats have
become fatter and fatter (like people on a high carbohydrate diet,
only worse) over the past few years, and the incidence of type II DM
has soared among that same population. Ask any vet if he or she is
seeing a lot more of this disease among his/her patients than a decade
ago. The answer will be "yes!"

It is certainly true than most serious cat breeders do not have a lot
of problems with this disease. The reason is not just that those
breeders have skillfully bred genetically DM resistant cats, however,
although that can be a part of the whole story. The larger reason is
that most, if not all, breeders feed a significant amount of canned
foods and fresh raw or cooked meats. Although most breeders do provide
dry cat foods to their cats, the diet of their breeding animals is not
even close to 100% dry food, as is often the case with pet cats in 1-3
cat households.

Consumption of dry cat food causes a very rapid and extreme surge in
blood glucose as the predigested carbohydrate in the food is dissolved
and absorbed into the bloodstream essentially as sugar from the
stomach and intestines. This rapid rise in blood glucose causes the
pancreas to secret a much larger amount of insulin in response than
would be needed with a more natural, high protein, moderate fat diet.
Ultimately, the constant abnormal stimulation either suppresses or
exhausts the pancreas (we're not sure exactly which, yet), and
clinical diabetes results. This process takes months to years to
occur, depending on the individual cat's ability to withstand the
effects of this abnormal metabolic effect. Along the way, the
constant high insulin levels (hyperinsulinemia) cause the cat to
experience hypertriglyceridemia (high triglycerides) and
hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and obesity results.

Our research has shown that weight reduction in even the most obese
(but otherwise healthy) cat is no more complicated than withholding
all dry food, and providing free choice canned food or fresh meat as
the sole diet. Thus, although I agree that obesity does not cause type
II DM, DM and obesity have common causes in the cat and in humans as
well.

Excessive carbohydrate consumption, over time, causes both obesity and
strongly predisposes the cat, an obligatory carnivore, to the
metabolic "train wreak" we know as type II feline diabetes mellitus.
Once this condition exists, effective treatment absolutely requires
that a high protein, moderate fat and low carbohydrate diet be used in
these patients. High fiber diets like w/d and r/d (and their analogs
by other companies) DO NOT WORK, and they do not work because they are
loaded with carbohydrate that continues to dump sugar into the blood
stream of an animal that already has problems handling sugar.

For now, there is compelling scientific evidence to show that high
carbohydrate diets (essentially all dry cat foods) fed to pet cats on
a continuous and exclusive basis predispose to, or even directly
cause, feline obesity and type II feline diabetes mellitus. In time,
I believe we will learn that other common feline maladies, such as
hyperthyroidism and urinary tract disease, are also related to this
very abnormal and non-physiological practice of feeding large amounts
of carbohydrate to animals not at all equipped to handle this nutrient
in such quantities. Conscientious breeders will want to keep their
eyes on the research into this very important aspect of cat breeding
and proper cat husbandry.

Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM

http://rocquoone.com/diabetes_and_obesity.htm

[GAUBSTER2]

>Subject: Re: Diabetic Cat
>From: (Liz)

>High fiber diets like w/d and r/d (and their analogs
>by other companies) DO NOT WORK, and they do not work because they are
>loaded with carbohydrate that continues to dump sugar into the blood
>stream of an animal that already has problems handling sugar.

Actually, tell that to my vet friend who has successfully treated hundreds of
cats over the years w/ the diets above.

>For now, there is compelling scientific evidence to show that high
>carbohydrate diets (essentially all dry cat foods) fed to pet cats on
>a continuous and exclusive basis predispose to, or even directly
>cause, feline obesity and type II feline diabetes mellitus.

I've never experienced this w/ any of the cats I have ever owned.

That doesn't even begin to address the millions of cats that have succcessfully
dropped the weight on dry foods like Science Diet Light, w/d, r/d, and others!

[GAUBSTER2]

>Subject: Re: Diabetic Cat
>From: (Liz)

>High fiber diets like w/d and r/d (and their analogs
>by other companies) DO NOT WORK, and they do not work because they are
>loaded with carbohydrate that continues to dump sugar into the blood
>stream of an animal that already has problems handling sugar.

Actually, tell that to my vet friend who has successfully treated hundreds of
cats over the years w/ the diets above.

>For now, there is compelling scientific evidence to show that high
>carbohydrate diets (essentially all dry cat foods) fed to pet cats on
>a continuous and exclusive basis predispose to, or even directly
>cause, feline obesity and type II feline diabetes mellitus.

I've never experienced this w/ any of the cats I have ever owned.

That doesn't even begin to address the millions of cats that have succcessfully
dropped the weight on dry foods like Science Diet Light, w/d, r/d, and others!