Re: for a friend: Drooling cat

[Bill]

"Niels Peter" > wrote in message
k...
> LAL wrote:
> > Greetings...
> >
> > I have a friend with a ragdoll and she recently asked me something
> > that I don't know the answer to. I suggested taking the little guy
> > (ha!) into the vet to have it checked out, but money is tight.
> > Here's her inquiry:
> >
> > I wanna run something by you about Symba that is wierd
> > Recently, within the last few days, I have noticed that Symba is
> > drooling alot ... and I mean ALOT. His chest will be really wet
> > from it
> > And this morning he left a drool spot on my bed where he had been
> > laying. Does that seem wierd to you?
> >
> > Any thoughts?? Thanx!!
> >
> > Lisa
>
> I'm afraid there's no getting round the vet; this could be due to a
> number of different ailments.
> If the cat had always been like this, I would have been calmer about it,
> but this kitty needs to see a vet.
>
> --
> Niels Peter
> www.bluewhite.dk
> Cats Are People, Too!
>

If money is tight, please try talking to some of the cat rescue groups in
your area.

Many of them will help people on a fixed income or limited budget with a vet
bill. This is how some of the contributions are used.

You can also talk to your vet about a payment schedule that will fit your
budget.

The last thing you want to do is not go to the vet at all.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

Bill

[Lori Scarbrough]

Thank you all for your input here. I am Symba's owner and I intend to call
a vet in the morning and may check into the rescue group as well. I was
laid off from my job in January and vet bills typically would not be a
problem, but funds are running low until unemployment kicks in.
I thought this was a really wierd thing and was wondering if it could be a
dental problem, but he is just over a year old. He plays and jumps around
like his normal self, waits for me to round a corner in my apartment and
jumps up and grabs his front paws around my wait (like a puppy) and is
acting like his normal self. He does not appear to be feeling bad. But I
can't take any risks. I will keep you posted. And thanks again for your
advice. I am new to this group, but will be frequenting from now on.

>^,.,^<
Lori and Symba


"Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Niels Peter" > wrote in message
> k...
> > LAL wrote:
> > > Greetings...
> > >
> > > I have a friend with a ragdoll and she recently asked me something
> > > that I don't know the answer to. I suggested taking the little guy
> > > (ha!) into the vet to have it checked out, but money is tight.
> > > Here's her inquiry:
> > >
> > > I wanna run something by you about Symba that is wierd
> > > Recently, within the last few days, I have noticed that Symba is
> > > drooling alot ... and I mean ALOT. His chest will be really wet
> > > from it
> > > And this morning he left a drool spot on my bed where he had been
> > > laying. Does that seem wierd to you?
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?? Thanx!!
> > >
> > > Lisa
> >
> > I'm afraid there's no getting round the vet; this could be due to a
> > number of different ailments.
> > If the cat had always been like this, I would have been calmer about it,
> > but this kitty needs to see a vet.
> >
> > --
> > Niels Peter
> > www.bluewhite.dk
> > Cats Are People, Too!
> >
>
> If money is tight, please try talking to some of the cat rescue groups in
> your area.
>
> Many of them will help people on a fixed income or limited budget with a
vet
> bill. This is how some of the contributions are used.
>
> You can also talk to your vet about a payment schedule that will fit your
> budget.
>
> The last thing you want to do is not go to the vet at all.
>
> Good luck, and let us know what happens.
>
> Bill
>
>
>

[Karen Chuplis]

in article , Lori
Scarbrough at wrote on 8/28/03 6:23 PM:

> Thank you all for your input here. I am Symba's owner and I intend to call
> a vet in the morning and may check into the rescue group as well. I was
> laid off from my job in January and vet bills typically would not be a
> problem, but funds are running low until unemployment kicks in.
> I thought this was a really wierd thing and was wondering if it could be a
> dental problem, but he is just over a year old. He plays and jumps around
> like his normal self, waits for me to round a corner in my apartment and
> jumps up and grabs his front paws around my wait (like a puppy) and is
> acting like his normal self. He does not appear to be feeling bad. But I
> can't take any risks. I will keep you posted. And thanks again for your
> advice. I am new to this group, but will be frequenting from now on.
>
>> ^,.,^<
> Lori and Symba
>
>
If he happens to be allergic to his own plaque, age will not matter. This
was the case with my boy. He had all of his teeth behind his canines removed
when he was three. It has done the trick though.

Karen

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

Bill wrote:
>
> "Niels Peter" > wrote in message
> k...
> > LAL wrote:
> > > Greetings...
> > >
> > > I have a friend with a ragdoll and she recently asked me something
> > > that I don't know the answer to. I suggested taking the little guy
> > > (ha!) into the vet to have it checked out, but money is tight.
> > > Here's her inquiry:
> > >
> > > I wanna run something by you about Symba that is wierd
> > > Recently, within the last few days, I have noticed that Symba is
> > > drooling alot ... and I mean ALOT. His chest will be really wet
> > > from it
> > > And this morning he left a drool spot on my bed where he had been
> > > laying. Does that seem wierd to you?


My first thought would be dental problems of some sort - toothache,
excessive tartar buildup, or something caught between the teeth (?).
But all of them requiring veterinary attention, if only for the cat's
comfort, and to rule out anything more serious.

> > >
> > > Any thoughts?? Thanx!!
> > >
> > > Lisa
> >
> > I'm afraid there's no getting round the vet; this could be due to a
> > number of different ailments.
> > If the cat had always been like this, I would have been calmer about it,
> > but this kitty needs to see a vet.
> >
> > --
> > Niels Peter
> > www.bluewhite.dk
> > Cats Are People, Too!
> >
>
> If money is tight, please try talking to some of the cat rescue groups in
> your area.
>
> Many of them will help people on a fixed income or limited budget with a vet
> bill. This is how some of the contributions are used.
>
> You can also talk to your vet about a payment schedule that will fit your
> budget.
>
> The last thing you want to do is not go to the vet at all.
>
> Good luck, and let us know what happens.
>
> Bill

[Cheryl]

"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> >
> If he happens to be allergic to his own plaque, age will not matter.
This
> was the case with my boy. He had all of his teeth behind his canines
removed
> when he was three. It has done the trick though.
>
> Karen
>

Allergic to his own plaque? I've never heard of this! :( Cats and
Allergies! Whoa.

[bewtifulfreak]

Lori Scarbrough wrote:
> Thank you all for your input here. I am Symba's owner and I intend
> to call a vet in the morning and may check into the rescue group as
> well. I was laid off from my job in January and vet bills typically
> would not be a problem, but funds are running low until unemployment
> kicks in.

I can totally understand that, but like others say, check around; there was
a Golden State Humane Society vets' office by me in California, and they
were very inexpensive. Didn't do x-rays or bloodwork, but could refer you
cheaper for that, and for everything else (exams, shots, etc), they were
very convenient and knowledgable. So maybe look for something like that.

Someone else posted that cats drool when they're happy, which I was going to
mention as well - we had a ragdoll who used to drool a lot when you pet her,
though she was an older kitty (originally belonging to my mom's boyfriend
who passed away). But I wasn't sure if you were just finding him drenched
or what, so I thought it best to have it checked out as well, just to make
sure. At least the vet can tell you definitively one way or the other, and
just a checkup shouldn't be too terribly expensive, especially if you call
around to find the best place.

Best of luck, and do let us know what you find out! :)

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

[~*SooZy*~]

"Lori Scarbrough" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you all for your input here. I am Symba's owner and I intend to
call
> a vet in the morning and may check into the rescue group as well. I was
> laid off from my job in January and vet bills typically would not be a
> problem, but funds are running low until unemployment kicks in.
> I thought this was a really wierd thing and was wondering if it could be a
> dental problem, but he is just over a year old. He plays and jumps around
> like his normal self, waits for me to round a corner in my apartment and
> jumps up and grabs his front paws around my wait (like a puppy) and is
> acting like his normal self. He does not appear to be feeling bad. But I
> can't take any risks. I will keep you posted. And thanks again for your
> advice. I am new to this group, but will be frequenting from now on.
>
> >^,.,^<
> Lori and Symba

Hi Lori, is it just when he is relaxing? check him after he has been
playing? have you looked at his teeth and mouth? My Ragdoll kitten dribbles
when he is purring..... Is he eating ok?

nice to have another Ragdoll owner in the group :-) have you got any
pictures of him? what colour is he? mine is a blue colourpoint 19 weeks,
check his pictures links below
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

[Tanada]

IBen Getiner wrote:
>
>
> Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
> about it...? Tell you?
> My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
> it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
> one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
> start.

Ben, we play nice in here. If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
work in RPCA. This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
consists of please take your cat to TED.

I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
behavior. Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
there, but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
RPCA. The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
appointment and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
the common sense to do what she can for the animal.

Pam S.

[Bob M]

Tanada wrote:
>
> IBen Getiner wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
> > about it...? Tell you?
> > My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
> > it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
> > one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
> > start.
>
> Ben, we play nice in here. If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
> http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
> work in RPCA. This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
> those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
> consists of please take your cat to TED.
>
> I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
> behavior. Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
> there, but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
> RPCA. The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
> appointment and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
> the common sense to do what she can for the animal.
>
> Pam S.

Well put Pam. I was going to respond to his message but you did a
wonderful job! I came to this newsgroup years ago from another one where
almost all the participants argued with each other and called each other
names. Although I don't post everyday, I do read this group everyday and
enjoy it. So again thanks for responding.

Bob

[Steve Touchstone]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:32:01 GMT, Tanada > wrote:

>IBen Getiner wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
>> about it...? Tell you?
>> My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
>> it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
>> one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
>> start.
>
>Ben, we play nice in here. If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
>http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
>work in RPCA. This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
>those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
>consists of please take your cat to TED.
>
>I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
>behavior. Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
>there, but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
>RPCA. The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
>appointment and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
>the common sense to do what she can for the animal.
>
>Pam S.

Very well put, Pam. I've stopped reading some other newsgroups when I
got fed up with the constantly bickering - not just other cat ngs,
although some were.

[Daniel Mahoney]

> I know for me, it was the tone of the post: "What do you think the cat's
> supposed to do about it...? Tell you?" "Go to a vet. You probably haven't
> thought one iota...." Not so much the message, but the medium. There are
> more tactful ways of suggesting things to people, without just making
> assumptions and being sarcastic and pushy.

That was my take as well. The poster had the capacity to make a
useful reply, but by embedding it in such hostile and insulting
language he pretty well guaranteed that it would be offensive to
the person asking the question.

There was no need for that person to be insulting in his reply.
Such behavior seems to be common in other newsgroups, but I'm glad
to say it's very rare here.

Dan


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Cathy Friedmann]

"Tanada" > wrote in message
...
> bewtifulfreak wrote:
> >
> > EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
> >
> > > I'm curious, Pam - what did you find so objectionable about Ben's
> > > post? Many cat-owners/slaves, particularly of my generation, most
> > > likely have NOT thought about "dental hygiene" as applied to cats -
> > > unless a vet suggested it, it never occurred to us that such a thing
> > > was needed.
> >
> > I know for me, it was the tone of the post: "What do you think the cat's
> > supposed to do about it...? Tell you?" "Go to a vet. You probably
haven't
> > thought one iota...." Not so much the message, but the medium. There
are
> > more tactful ways of suggesting things to people, without just making
> > assumptions and being sarcastic and pushy.
>
>
> What Ann said. It was his superior than her attitude. Sometimes
> rudeness has to be addressed and not just ignored. I felt that the
> wording and tone of his message was quite rude.
>
> Pam S.

That particular poster's always like that.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

[IBen Getiner]

Tanada > wrote in message >...
> IBen Getiner wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
> > about it...? Tell you?
> > My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
> > it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
> > one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
> > start.
>
> Ben, we play nice in here.

So do I. Until crossed.

> If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
> http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
> work in RPCA.

Thank you. But this site is full of pop-ups. Almost every attempt to
decipher it's meaning was lost in a minefield of ADDS.

> This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
> those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
> consists of please take your cat to TED.
>
> I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
> behavior.

Sorry. I don't choose which group my advice gets posted to. The poster
that I am responding to does. I hover and post in H&B. If you don't
like my postings, what can I say...? Don't read them!


> Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
> there,

Treatment..?? I am who I am. I treat people no differently here than I
do in any other group. I cannot help it if your group has more than
its share of emmotional cripples. Why would you let them dictate your
policies, unless you are one yourself?

> but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
> RPCA.

Yes. So do I. But there's got to be a doubt in the first place. I saw
no room for that doubt in the inital poster's travail.

> The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
> appointment

If they made any appointments, they didn't say so in their initial
posting. This is what I was responding to. If they posted later and
said they had a vet appointment, then they must taken the same advice
I offered, but from another poster. My apologies.

>and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
> the common sense to do what she can for the animal.

Is this the way you took it? This answers my previous question. Now I
understand better. <eyes shifted down, head slightly lowered> I'm
sorry I got you so worked up. I'll try to consider precarious
footholds and such if I am ever so unlucky as to accidentally post in
your group again. Let me know if I do.

But on a more serious note ;).... don't you think that some kinf of
common sense test *should* be mandintory for people before they are
allowed to own a pet?


> Pam S.


Oh... one more thing. You may want to reconsider your stance on
sexually mutilating (aka, neutering and spaying) your cats. The way I
see it..

"Cats come with genitalia. If you don't like the idea of a cat
spraying or crying while in heat, don't get a cat."

[IBen Getiner]

Bob M > wrote in message >...
> Tanada wrote:
> >
> > IBen Getiner wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
> > > about it...? Tell you?
> > > My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
> > > it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
> > > one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
> > > start.
> >
> > Ben, we play nice in here. If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
> > http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
> > work in RPCA. This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
> > those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
> > consists of please take your cat to TED.
> >
> > I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
> > behavior. Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
> > there, but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
> > RPCA. The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
> > appointment and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
> > the common sense to do what she can for the animal.
> >
> > Pam S.
>
> Well put Pam. I was going to respond to his message but you did a
> wonderful job! I came to this newsgroup years ago from another one where
> almost all the participants argued with each other and called each other
> names. Although I don't post everyday, I do read this group everyday and
> enjoy it. So again thanks for responding.
>
> Bob

Then the message I posted at Pammy today is for you too, Bob.

[IBen Getiner]

Tanada > wrote in message >...


> It was his superior than her attitude. Sometimes
> rudeness has to be addressed and not just ignored. I felt that the
> wording and tone of his message was quite rude.
>
> Pam S.



Exibit 'A'

[[email protected]]

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" > wrote:

> I'm curious, Pam - what did you find so objectionable about Ben's post?
> Many cat-owners/slaves, particularly of my generation, most likely have
> NOT thought about "dental hygiene" as applied to cats - unless a vet
> suggested it, it never occurred to us that such a thing was needed.

I'm not Pam, but I can say with confidence that Pam would not object to
someone suggesting that the cat might require attention to its dental
hygiene, if they did so without sarcasm or an implication that the person
is willfully neglectful, stupid, lacking in common sense, etc., but rather
brought the issue up in a friendly way.

Unfortunately, some humans have no clue whatsoever about how to interact
with others of their species, and then they act all surprised when their
obnoxious comments offend people, and draw the conclusion that people
must prefer to be ignorant since they're rejecting important information.
When in fact, they're just rejecting the jerk himself.

Joyce

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

wrote:
>
> "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" > wrote:
>
> > I'm curious, Pam - what did you find so objectionable about Ben's post?
> > Many cat-owners/slaves, particularly of my generation, most likely have
> > NOT thought about "dental hygiene" as applied to cats - unless a vet
> > suggested it, it never occurred to us that such a thing was needed.
>
> I'm not Pam, but I can say with confidence that Pam would not object to
> someone suggesting that the cat might require attention to its dental
> hygiene, if they did so without sarcasm or an implication that the person
> is willfully neglectful, stupid, lacking in common sense, etc., but rather
> brought the issue up in a friendly way.

You idiot, It was Pam who initially objected to your unfeeling comment
(which I defended under the misguided impression you intended it as
humour.) Obviously she was correct, you ARE an insensitive jerk. Now
get lost! (P-L-O-N-K)

[Tanada]

IBen Getiner wrote:
>
>
> <<Snipped Troll Talk>>
>


I was going to reply to this guy and decided that he wasn't worth the
effort.

He'll probably take it as a sign that I'm another stupid person. Ah
well, at least we'll get recipes out of this one.

Pam S.

[Jean H]

I was reading a news group the other day and I too got fed up reading the
squables
I dont have a lot of time to answer but I do when I can but that day I
wanted to post
that they sounded like a lot of rude children fighting about unimpotant
things instead
of getting on with the buisness of trying to help each other or at least
offering their
sympathy, but I thought I might be bringing myself down to their level,
actually I have
found this to be the nicest group too, cheers to everyone. Purrs to all jp
"Steve Touchstone" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:32:01 GMT, Tanada > wrote:
>
> >IBen Getiner wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Sounds like a toothache. What do you think the cat's supposed to do
> >> about it...? Tell you?
> >> My folks have a Persian that also drooled a lot. Turned out, one of
> >> it's incisors was abscessed. Go to a vet. You probably haven't thought
> >> one iota about your cat's oral hygiene anyway. Now's a good time to
> >> start.
> >
> >Ben, we play nice in here. If you need the FAQ for this group, go to
> >http://www.angelfire.com/mt/yowie/catfaq.htm for information on how we
> >work in RPCA. This is basically an anecdotes group. Any help we give
> >those who have medical problems is purely friendly and generally
> >consists of please take your cat to TED.
> >
> >I see that you probably picked this message up from health and
> >behavior. Your treatment of the person may be perfectly normal in
> >there, but we tend to give the messenger the benefit of the doubt in
> >RPCA. The servant of the cat in question has already made a vet
> >appointment and doesn't need to be treated like a spoiled child without
> >the common sense to do what she can for the animal.
> >
> >Pam S.
>
> Very well put, Pam. I've stopped reading some other newsgroups when I
> got fed up with the constantly bickering - not just other cat ngs,
> although some were.

[IBen Getiner]

Seanette Blaylock > wrote in message >...
> (IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
> say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
>
> >Sorry. I don't choose which group my advice gets posted to.
>
> Oh yes you do. That is, unless you're too ignorant to know how to edit
> that line in your posts,


I NEVER edit headers. The way I see it, if the guy I responded to had
them up there, he did it for a reason. Who am I to change it?


> or you're using such a sorry excuse for a
> news reader that it *forces* you to be totally rude.

This is your opinion. I am who I am. Take it or leave it. I have
never, nor will I ever change for other people, least of all you
people. If you don't dig me, then.... don't respond...

[Steve Touchstone]

On 31 Aug 2003 12:52:28 -0700, (IBen Getiner) wrote:

>Seanette Blaylock > wrote in message >...
>> (IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
>> say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
>>
>> >Sorry. I don't choose which group my advice gets posted to.
>>
>> Oh yes you do. That is, unless you're too ignorant to know how to edit
>> that line in your posts,
>
>
>I NEVER edit headers. The way I see it, if the guy I responded to had
>them up there, he did it for a reason. Who am I to change it?
>
>
>> or you're using such a sorry excuse for a
>> news reader that it *forces* you to be totally rude.
>
>This is your opinion. I am who I am. Take it or leave it. I have
>never, nor will I ever change for other people, least of all you
>people. If you don't dig me, then.... don't respond...


I'll leave it - PLONK

[Seanette Blaylock]

(IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
>Seanette Blaylock > wrote in message >...
>> (IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
>> say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
>> >Sorry. I don't choose which group my advice gets posted to.
>> Oh yes you do. That is, unless you're too ignorant to know how to edit
>> that line in your posts,
>I NEVER edit headers. The way I see it, if the guy I responded to had
>them up there, he did it for a reason. Who am I to change it?

An intelligent adult? No, you've already disproven that, along with
proving you know NOTHING about Usenet politeness. Welcome to my bozo
bin. [plink]

--
Seanette Blaylock
"You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has
to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." - Alan Krueger in NANAE
[make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

[IBen Getiner]

Seanette Blaylock > wrote in message >...
> (IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
> say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
> >Seanette Blaylock > wrote in message >...
> >> (IBen Getiner) had some very interesting things to
> >> say about Re: for a friend: Drooling cat:
> >> >Sorry. I don't choose which group my advice gets posted to.
> >> Oh yes you do. That is, unless you're too ignorant to know how to edit
> >> that line in your posts,
> >I NEVER edit headers. The way I see it, if the guy I responded to had
> >them up there, he did it for a reason. Who am I to change it?
>
> An intelligent adult? No, you've already disproven that, along with
> proving you know NOTHING about Usenet politeness. Welcome to my bozo
> bin. [plink]


Why, that was a very intelligent persuasive argument you presented
there, SeanETTE. But despite your best intellectual posturing, it
still looks like penis envy to me.



IBen