Cat vs Human

[Angela Ryan]

I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last night.
We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good for
a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't been
doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored me
for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me, not
even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night. She
even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).

It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
will defend themselves if necessary.

Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe not)

We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
now!!!

Angela (and the savage Gizmo)

[JHBennett]

Angela,
Undoubtedly I'll be castigated for mentioning this, but I have some
thoughts about animals/pets attacking their masters. Except for my
encounter with Miss Kitty (our former feral), which I provoked--and handled
stupidly--I've never been bitten by an animal, although friends and family
members sometimes have by the same critters I've been around.
A really super dog and I once attended obedience school and the question
came up regarding what to do about a dog growling or becoming menacing. The
trainer said the thing to do was strike them sharply, under their chin, and
slam their mouth shut. Likely it would cause them to bite their tongue, but
the snap would also cause a jar to their brain, thus changing any particular
thought they might have at the moment. A few weeks later, he was behaving
badly--as though he'd do as he darn well pleased (this was a 130 pound
German Shepard) and retreated under the kitchen table from me. As I was
reaching in for his chain collar, he got as far as the beginning of a growl.
Since my hand was so close to his chin, I instantly slammed his mouth shut,
which also drove his head into the underside of the table, causing all the
tableware to rattle and clatter. It was quite a racket and must have made a
lasting impression on him. He never offered to get nasty and mean with me
or any other member of the family...ever again, in all the time he was with
us.
The times I've been around other animals which have become menacing,
I've worked with that key thought the trainer mentioned of *changing their
minds* by doing something to break the pattern of what was unfolding. Once
it was acting as though I was completely indifferent to the animal's
presence, once I chased a dog away, and another time--my scariest
encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I couldn't see
the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my path.
In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command, followed
by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever it was
worked and he vanished back into the night.
The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the food chain
and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's nice and
fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it just
isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your pet's mind,
but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you, in her
way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that, it's
dangerous and dumb, my friend.
In the same situation you had, where your cat bit you, I would have
instantly slapped her and knocked her to the floor. I wouldn't have hit her
hard enough to hurt her, but I would have *changed her mind* and left her
with the knowledge that I had a physical power, and ability to use it, far
greater than she had ever imagined. The message would have been, we can be
nice, or, if you insist on being nasty, you have no idea what you're in for.
The better choice, kitty, is to be nice to the boss.
Anyway, that's my thinking on the matter and I'm sure somebody will tell
me how I'm wrong ;-)
Cheers,
Jack

"Angela Ryan" > wrote in message
...
> I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last
night.
> We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
> ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good
for
> a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't been
> doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
> loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored
me
> for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me, not
> even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
> started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night. She
> even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).
>
> It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
> will defend themselves if necessary.
>
> Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe
not)
>
> We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
> now!!!
>
> Angela (and the savage Gizmo)
>
>

[m. L. Briggs]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:06:05 +1000, "Angela Ryan"
> wrote:

>I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last night.
>We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
>ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good for
>a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't been
>doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
>loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored me
>for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me, not
>even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
>started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night. She
>even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).
>
>It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
>will defend themselves if necessary.
>
>Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe not)
>
>We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
>now!!!
>
>Angela (and the savage Gizmo)
>
IMO tickling (?) a cat is one of the most dangerous things one can
do.

[Hopitus2]

Duh....I have *no* idea how to tickle a cat! Probably a good thing.......

"m. L. Briggs" > wrote in message
...
: On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:06:05 +1000, "Angela Ryan"
: > wrote:
:
: >I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last
night.
: >We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
: >ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good
for
: >a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't
been
: >doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
: >loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored
me
: >for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me,
not
: >even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
: >started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night.
She
: >even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).
: >
: >It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
: >will defend themselves if necessary.
: >
: >Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe
not)
: >
: >We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
: >now!!!
: >
: >Angela (and the savage Gizmo)
: >
: IMO tickling (?) a cat is one of the most dangerous things one can
: do.

[John Biltz]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 7:25:34 -0700, JHBennett wrote
(in message >):

No, I agree with you. If a pet attacks me it is gone. Hell, if a spouse
attacks it should be gone. I take my safety seriously. But with a pet
you have to consider others as well. If it is willing to attack you
would happen to someone else? I don't push animals and I wouldn't
consider something I did to provoke one to apply. Maya bit me once while
trying to pill her. My fault, you put your fingers in an animals mouth,
you take you chances. She scratched me once but she was scared by the
electric clippers I was holding, again my fault. But, I would never
allow a situation where I feared for my safety.

> Angela,
> Undoubtedly I'll be castigated for mentioning this, but I have some
> thoughts about animals/pets attacking their masters. Except for my
> encounter with Miss Kitty (our former feral), which I provoked--and handled
> stupidly--I've never been bitten by an animal, although friends and family
> members sometimes have by the same critters I've been around.
> A really super dog and I once attended obedience school and the question
> came up regarding what to do about a dog growling or becoming menacing. The
> trainer said the thing to do was strike them sharply, under their chin, and
> slam their mouth shut. Likely it would cause them to bite their tongue, but
> the snap would also cause a jar to their brain, thus changing any particular
> thought they might have at the moment. A few weeks later, he was behaving
> badly--as though he'd do as he darn well pleased (this was a 130 pound
> German Shepard) and retreated under the kitchen table from me. As I was
> reaching in for his chain collar, he got as far as the beginning of a growl.
> Since my hand was so close to his chin, I instantly slammed his mouth shut,
> which also drove his head into the underside of the table, causing all the
> tableware to rattle and clatter. It was quite a racket and must have made a
> lasting impression on him. He never offered to get nasty and mean with me
> or any other member of the family...ever again, in all the time he was with
> us.
> The times I've been around other animals which have become menacing,
> I've worked with that key thought the trainer mentioned of *changing their
> minds* by doing something to break the pattern of what was unfolding. Once
> it was acting as though I was completely indifferent to the animal's
> presence, once I chased a dog away, and another time--my scariest
> encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I couldn't see
> the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my path.
> In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command, followed
> by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever it was
> worked and he vanished back into the night.
> The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the food chain
> and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's nice and
> fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it just
> isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your pet's mind,
> but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you, in her
> way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that, it's
> dangerous and dumb, my friend.
> In the same situation you had, where your cat bit you, I would have
> instantly slapped her and knocked her to the floor. I wouldn't have hit her
> hard enough to hurt her, but I would have *changed her mind* and left her
> with the knowledge that I had a physical power, and ability to use it, far
> greater than she had ever imagined. The message would have been, we can be
> nice, or, if you insist on being nasty, you have no idea what you're in for.
> The better choice, kitty, is to be nice to the boss.
> Anyway, that's my thinking on the matter and I'm sure somebody will tell
> me how I'm wrong ;-)
> Cheers,
> Jack
>
> "Angela Ryan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last
> night.
>> We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
>> ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good
> for
>> a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't been
>> doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
>> loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored
> me
>> for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me, not
>> even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
>> started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night. She
>> even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).
>>
>> It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
>> will defend themselves if necessary.
>>
>> Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe
> not)
>>
>> We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
>> now!!!
>>
>> Angela (and the savage Gizmo)
>>
>>
>
>

[JHBennett]

"John Biltz" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 7:25:34 -0700, JHBennett wrote
> (in message >):
>
> No, I agree with you. If a pet attacks me it is gone. Hell, if a spouse
> attacks it should be gone. I take my safety seriously. But with a pet
> you have to consider others as well. If it is willing to attack you
> would happen to someone else? I don't push animals and I wouldn't
> consider something I did to provoke one to apply. Maya bit me once while
> trying to pill her. My fault, you put your fingers in an animals mouth,
> you take you chances. She scratched me once but she was scared by the
> electric clippers I was holding, again my fault. But, I would never
> allow a situation where I feared for my safety.
>
[[[[[snip]]]]]]

I appreciate the reinforcement, John (Wow, talk about tossing behavioral
jargon around!). But, when you think about it, that's how animals
communicate what the limits are to other animals, via some physical sign of
force or warning. You make a very good point about the safety of others who
might be around your pet. And how many times have we heard something like,
"that's the first time Precious has ripped the throat out of a child." Most
pets are very accepting and protecting of children in a family, but, then,
there are some which should be carefully watched and monitored. Truth be
known, that's likely a good practice with any pet.
Cheers,
Jack

[LOL]

"JHBennett" > wrote in message >...
> Angela,

(selective snipping for length)

, and another time--my scariest
> encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I couldn't see
> the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my path.
> In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command, followed
> by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever it was
> worked and he vanished back into the night.
> The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the food chain
> and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's nice and
> fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it just
> isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your pet's mind,
> but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you, in her
> way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that, it's
> dangerous and dumb, my friend.

> Cheers,
> Jack
>


Mike has always been a mean cat. He's always been a biter, and though
it's happened less and less over the years (he's now 11) occasionally
he would just *attack* - he would get a strange look in his eyes, and
there was no stopping him unless you could throw up a barrier of some
kind, like shove a pillow in front of you to block him. It was almost
like a seizure of some kind, and was pretty scary, just because it was
so weird. He could do some damage whenever this happened.

That said, there is a limit to just how much damage a 10 pound cat can
do to a 100 pound person. Assuming you can keep the cat from your
face and eyes, bad scratches is about the extent of it. In my
experience, under ordinary circumstances the commanding voice thing
will do the trick. If an animal is completely out of control, all
bets are off, of course.

I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner <insert
ladylike snort of glee>

I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
shaken off the "NO" command <g> but what would you suggest in that
situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.

------
Krista

[Yoj]

"LOL" > wrote in message
om...
> "JHBennett" > wrote in message
>...
> > Angela,
>
> (selective snipping for length)
>
> , and another time--my scariest
> > encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I
couldn't see
> > the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my
path.
> > In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command,
followed
> > by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever
it was
> > worked and he vanished back into the night.
> > The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the
food chain
> > and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's
nice and
> > fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it
just
> > isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your
pet's mind,
> > but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you,
in her
> > way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that,
it's
> > dangerous and dumb, my friend.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Jack
> >
>
>
> Mike has always been a mean cat. He's always been a biter, and though
> it's happened less and less over the years (he's now 11) occasionally
> he would just *attack* - he would get a strange look in his eyes, and
> there was no stopping him unless you could throw up a barrier of some
> kind, like shove a pillow in front of you to block him. It was almost
> like a seizure of some kind, and was pretty scary, just because it was
> so weird. He could do some damage whenever this happened.
>
> That said, there is a limit to just how much damage a 10 pound cat can
> do to a 100 pound person. Assuming you can keep the cat from your
> face and eyes, bad scratches is about the extent of it. In my
> experience, under ordinary circumstances the commanding voice thing
> will do the trick. If an animal is completely out of control, all
> bets are off, of course.
>
> I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
> Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
> driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
> back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
> he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
> instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
> owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
> before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
> ******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
> The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner <insert
> ladylike snort of glee>
>
> I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
> believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
> the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
> shaken off the "NO" command <g> but what would you suggest in that
> situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
> outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
> the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.
>
> ------
> Krista

I don't have any suggestions, other than what you did, but I'd guess
that's the best thing you could have done. Running is a VERY bad idea
in such a situation. If you stay put, you might be attacked, but if you
run, you definitely will be.

Joy

[Angela Ryan]

"Angela Ryan" > wrote in message
...
> I consider Gizmo to be fairly well domesticated, that was until last
night.
> We were watching TV together (yes, she watches TV then talks to me in the
> ads) when she wanted to play, so I started tickling her.....all was good
for
> a while until she bit me and started swiping me and hissing. I hadn't been
> doing anything to her I wouldn't normally do, things she always
> loves......for some reason she chucked a spastic last night then ignored
me
> for an hour (sat in front of the heater, facing it, not looking at me, not
> even purring)......so, I kept watching TV and alas, she came back and
> started sucking up again and things were OK for the rest of the night. She
> even let us sleep in this morning (just as well as it is Saturday).
>
> It just reminded me that our furry feline friends really are animals and
> will defend themselves if necessary.
>
> Either that or she had a case of PMT (hmmmm.....shes desexed.....maybe
not)
>
> We are still friends this morning so I think I am worthy of her attention
> now!!!
>
> Angela (and the savage Gizmo)

Clarification.....normally Gizmo likes being tickled......this is the only
time she has stepped the bounds.....I did not feel the need to discipline
her

I think perhaps I might have hit a sensitive spot.

Angela

[polonca12000]

I'm so glad you and your husband got out of the situation unharmed. You
really knew how to react.
Best wishes,
--
Polonca & Soncek

"LOL" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>> I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your
opinion.
> Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
> driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
> back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
> he meant business.

[JHBennett]

"LOL" > wrote in message
om...
> "JHBennett" > wrote in message
>...
> > Angela,
>
> (selective snipping for length)
>
> , and another time--my scariest
> > encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I couldn't
see
> > the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my
path.
> > In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command,
followed
> > by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever it
was
> > worked and he vanished back into the night.
> > The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the food
chain
> > and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's nice
and
> > fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it just
> > isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your pet's
mind,
> > but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you, in
her
> > way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that, it's
> > dangerous and dumb, my friend.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Jack
> >
>
>
> Mike has always been a mean cat. He's always been a biter, and though
> it's happened less and less over the years (he's now 11) occasionally
> he would just *attack* - he would get a strange look in his eyes, and
> there was no stopping him unless you could throw up a barrier of some
> kind, like shove a pillow in front of you to block him. It was almost
> like a seizure of some kind, and was pretty scary, just because it was
> so weird. He could do some damage whenever this happened.
>
> That said, there is a limit to just how much damage a 10 pound cat can
> do to a 100 pound person. Assuming you can keep the cat from your
> face and eyes, bad scratches is about the extent of it. In my
> experience, under ordinary circumstances the commanding voice thing
> will do the trick. If an animal is completely out of control, all
> bets are off, of course.
>
> I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
> Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
> driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
> back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
> he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
> instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
> owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
> before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
> ******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
> The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner <insert
> ladylike snort of glee>
>
> I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
> believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
> the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
> shaken off the "NO" command <g> but what would you suggest in that
> situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
> outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
> the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.
>
> ------
> Krista

Wow! Kudos for keeping your wits in a bad situation, Krista ;-) I do
believe in the *no* command, virtually every dog has heard it. I understand
trained guard dogs--and I know the police dogs for the Air Force--are
sometimes trained to respond to commands in German. If pressed, I think I
could manage ;-)

On the practical side--and I offer this with some trepidation--I am
convinced I can kill a dog, with my bare hands, if I am ever seriously
attacked, and I am determined to do so. If you are a fan of the movie
*Outlaw Josie Wales* you'll recall the scene where Wales is describing how
the people must fight for their lives, admonishing them that they must
"...get mad dog mean..." to survive. Animals have a mouth full of teeth and
are fast. We, however, have a better brain and can think in stratigic and
tactical terms. Predictably, a trained dog will likely go for an arm, as
we've seen in films of police training. I believe it possible to break a
dogs neck, if it takes your forearm. The method would be a variation of a
killing, hand to hand combat tactic, I picked up from a book on the subject
from WWII. In the case of killing an enemy combatant, the method is to get
your forearm under the chin of an opponent, from behind. Once you have your
arm under the chin, you hook your hand into the crook of the elbow, of your
other arm, with the hand of that arm at the back of the head. Once you have
achieved this grip (it's rather simple, really), you step back allowing the
weight of the person to bear on the neck, as you bend the head/neck forward,
toward the chest. Applying that same principle to an attacking dog, let
him have the forearm, place your free hand just behind its head, grip your
forearm, step back and bend the dog's head back over its body. I haven't
tried it, so can't say for sure it would work. However, once when my 130
pound German Shepard and I were playing, he had his mouth wrapped around my
arm. I very gently took the hold I've described and simply held him, to get
some assessment of the practical usefullness of the tactic--if ever needed.
He was greatly distressed by the situation, and I can guarantee I didn't
hurt him even in the slightest.
Likely dogs have never encountered a creature with fists, so wouldn't
have a clue about what they can do. Actually, if you believe some of the
kung-foo nonsence, I suppose you can stop a tank. An attacking dog would be
vulnerable to a blow to the throat. I'd hit with my fist and as hard as I
could manage--mad dog mean, remember? The idea would be to crush the
windpipe/larynx and, if it doesn't work the first time, try it again. A
blow to that area is quite painful anyway, and, if you do manage to crush
those vital structures, the amimal will likely die......certainly ought to
take some of the enthusiasm out of them.
Then there is the matter of the eyes. In our era of sanitized--*G*
rated--staged for TV fights, nobody gouges eyes out. For that reason, I
doubt anybody would think of disabling an opponent by blinding them. Eyes
are well protected by bone structure from slashing attacks but, a thumb (use
the thumbs) driven straight into the corner of the eye, then pressed outward
toward the side, would be painful and, if done with the determination the
situation warrants, would dislodge the eye from the socket. If the loss of
one eye doesn't discourage the beast, take out the other and your now
blinded opponent should be completely at your mercy.
Otherwise, I would advise giving the idea of how you can fight back some
thought. What can you do, and how you would do it? A kick to the chest can
be very dangerous, you know. People have been killed because their hearts
have been stopped by such a blow, why not a dog? Also, in my case, I can
imagine a situation where I might grab a dog by a hind leg and sling it
against the pavement. But I have the size and strength to do that, while
you may not. The problem gets simpler if there are two of you and only one
attacking dog. If the dog is attacking your friend, you can kick it in the
chest--as hard as you can. In the alternative, you might be able to get on
its back and get your forearm around the neck, to strangle it. If a dog
were attacking you, your friend might be able to grab a hind leg and pull it
away, then bash its brains out by swinging it overhead and against the
ground.
I should also mention I've carried a pocket knife for many years, but
have never thought of it as a weapon, obviously, since I'm just now getting
around to it. Mine happens to be what's called a *stockman's* model, with a
3" blade, that's as sharp as a razor, literally. It will split a single
hair (long boring story behind that) and, should I ever think of it, when
attacked by a dog or any other creature, the affair will be settled in a
hurry, if I can get it into action, as it would require both hands to open
it. However, the state of the art now is pocket knives which can be opened
with one hand. The ones I've seen, which would be suitable for defensive
purposes, have a button on the blade which allows you to swing the blade
open with the thumb, while holding the handle, with one hand. As far as I
know, pocket knives are legal in every state and local of the US. You
should be able to locate something suitable at a gun shop, sporting goods
store, shopping center, etc. Thus armed (tools and brains are why we're at
the top of the FC) whether you stab an attacking animal or cut it's throat
becomes a matter of personal preference and opportunity.
There is also a thing called a *bear bomb,* which dischrges a cloud of
pepper gas. If you are thinking those little canisters of tear gas hanging
on hooks at the stores you frequent, they're rather harmless, I understand,
and not what I'm talking about. I learned about the things in a discussion
on a Canadian news group where the subject of bear attacks came up. We were
knocking around a situation where an inexperienced fellow wanted to know if
a 9mm pistol would be sufficient protection against a Grizzly bear (in fact
it's suicidal) and several of the Canadians advocated the use of a bear
bomb. Apparently they are available in the US, presumably in bear country,
and one fellow described the effectiveness by relating his watching a video
of a bear, running away from a group, diving under water repeatedly, as it
swam away down stream. I would offer that a device which would turn a
Grizzly would do the job with just about any other critter around,
regardless of whether having two or four legs, which might annoy you ;-)
Weapons can also be improvised and the bar of soap, in the sock, is a
classic. It makes a pretty fair blackjack. Also ball point pens or
pencils can be used to stab. Give it some thought and I'm certain you can
work out some contingency plans that will serve you well, should the
situation ever come up again. Of course, in the final analysis, one can
always kneel down, in the fetal position, protecting the neck and throat,
with the hands clasped behind the head and arms held close to the body.
Such would be against my combative nature and assuredly the last thing I
would do, but supposedly it is how one can survive a bear attack.
Speaking of which, you have heard about this advisory put out by the
state of Montana, haven't you?

***Bear Advisory***
Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and wilderness
areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing. Accordingly,
the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory, in
the interest of public safety.
Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will afix
little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in the
area.
When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that bears
are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and contain
bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of clothing
and little bells.

Cheers, Krista ;-)
Jack
PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.

[BricksInTheWall8]

I like dogs, but I am extremely wary around them. It enrages me when people do
not have their dogs on leashes and they allow the dogs to come right up to me.
What the hell is that? Get your dog AWAY from me!

I was at a playground with a babysitting charge just yesterday and a lady was
there with her dog, on a leash at least. (There was a huge no-dog sign, but it
couldn't possibly apply to HER). A kid walked up to within a few metres of them
and said "may I pet your dog"? Just as he had been taught. The woman replied,
"Huh? Yeah, sure.". The kid goes up to the dog and the dog jumps back and gets
all upset. Not barking or anything, but still. The woman says, "Oh, be careful!
You have to go slow because he doesn't know you. HE DOESN'T LIKE PEOPLE."
(emphasis mine). WTF???? If that had been the kid i was taking care of, I would
have thrown a huge fit. What an irresponsible idiot.

Anyhow, I carry a collapsable baton, in part to whack any dog who tries to bite
me. In a self-defence way, I mean. Like I said, I LIKE dogs. But I'm wary.


>
>I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
> Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
>driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
>back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
>he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
>instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
>owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
>before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
>******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
>The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner <insert
>ladylike snort of glee>
>
>I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
>believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
>the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
>shaken off the "NO" command <g> but what would you suggest in that
>situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
>outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
>the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.

[BricksInTheWall8]

They put that dog the hell down, right?

>The child and
>officer recovered and the dog's owner was cited. But I couldn't believe
>this dog just stopped and sat down when I yelled no. I don't think I was
>able to relax the rest of the day.

[LOL]

"JHBennett" > wrote in message >...

(snipped)

> ***Bear Advisory***
> Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and wilderness
> areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing. Accordingly,
> the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory, in
> the interest of public safety.
> Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
> know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will afix
> little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in the
> area.
> When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that bears
> are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and contain
> bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of clothing
> and little bells.
>
> Cheers, Krista ;-)
> Jack
> PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
> chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.


ROFL! I love the bear advisory! I will forward that, if you don't
mind.

I do have a pocket knife on my keychain, but it is a tiny thing I use
for zipping open boxes, etc.; maybe I should get a bigger one. And
some of us do think of eyes - I am a smoker and it has occurred to me
what an effective deterrent a lit cigarette in the eye would be.

Thanks for the thought provoking post - I am hoping not to *have* to
worry about my position on the food chain, though. :-)

------
Krista

[LOL]

Bob M > wrote in message >...

>
> I can definitely vouch for this. As most of you know I am a police
> officer in a suburb of Dallas. One day I got a call that a guy's 3 pit
> bulls had gotten out and were terrorizing the neighborhood. One of them
> was apparently meaner than the other 3 and had already attacked a child
> and hurt it badly. When I arrived on scene I saw the animal control
> officer who was frightened and bleeding. The dog had attacked him too.
> By this time 2 of the dogs had already gone home but the mean one wanted
> me for lunch! The animal control guy is a big man. He's probably 6"3"
> and over 300lbs. As scared as he was he was still trying to do his job
> and round up this dog. About the time I step out of my squad car, the
> dog starts racing down the sidewalk at me. I pulled my gun and pointed
> it at the dog. Keep in mind this dog had already attacked 2 people. I
> yelled NO! and was already halfway back on the trigger. The damn dog
> stopped and sat down on the sidewalk. We were still trying to figure out
> how to round him up when his owner drove by and saw what was happening.
> He was able to put the dog in the animal control's truck. The child and
> officer recovered and the dog's owner was cited. But I couldn't believe
> this dog just stopped and sat down when I yelled no. I don't think I was
> able to relax the rest of the day.
>
> Bob


Yikes! Did the dog go back home to his owner after all that? I have
to wonder if encounters like this bother us so much because we're so
used to automatically dominating animals without even having to *try*
that it is more disconcerting than it really should be when we *can't*
control an animal? Anyway, I am glad your experience ended as well as
it did, bad though it was.

------
Krista

[JHBennett]

"LOL" > wrote in message
om...
> "JHBennett" > wrote in message
>...
>
> (snipped)
>
> > ***Bear Advisory***
> > Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and
wilderness
> > areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing.
Accordingly,
> > the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory,
in
> > the interest of public safety.
> > Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
> > know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will
afix
> > little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in
the
> > area.
> > When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that
bears
> > are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and
contain
> > bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of
clothing
> > and little bells.
> >
> > Cheers, Krista ;-)
> > Jack
> > PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
> > chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.
>
>
> ROFL! I love the bear advisory! I will forward that, if you don't
> mind.

Be my guest. I stole it from someone else ;-) --JB
>
> I do have a pocket knife on my keychain, but it is a tiny thing I use
> for zipping open boxes, etc.; maybe I should get a bigger one.

Yup. Go shopping. I think you'll like what you find. --JB

And
> some of us do think of eyes - I am a smoker and it has occurred to me
> what an effective deterrent a lit cigarette in the eye would be.

Hmmmmm.... In the practical application, it might be too slow, vice the
thrust of the thumb. For sure, you're not going to have time to light up
;-)))) --JB
>
> Thanks for the thought provoking post - I am hoping not to *have* to
> worry about my position on the food chain, though. :-)
>
Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually, when I
hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the woman attacked
for 15 minutes in her California appartment building, I'm convinced they
didn't fight back.
Cheers,
Jack

[[email protected]]

JHBennett > wrote:

> Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually,
> when I hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the
> woman attacked for 15 minutes in her California appartment building,
> I'm convinced they didn't fight back.

Are you talking about the San Francisco woman who was mauled to death by
a pit bull in the hallway of her building, just as she was at her front
door? The dog that was trained as a fighting dog, along with many others,
by the woman who was with the dog at that time? (Actually, I'm not sure
the woman herself actually trained the fighting dogs, but she was involved
with the people who did it, and she and her husband were taking care of
two of those dogs.)

This case was all over the news for about 2 years in the Bay Area. The
woman who died was unarmed and pretty much defenseless against an
aggressive, strong, well-trained pit bull.

Mind you, I don't believe all pit bulls are evil - not by a long shot.
I've met many who were very sweet and lovable. But they're really strong
dogs, with *very* strong jaws, and if they're trained to be aggressive,
they're very dangerous, and can certainly kill a person, regardless of
whether the person fights back. And anyway, even if the person dies
because they didn't fight back, the dog could still be dangerous to
others. Many people don't know they might be able to fight a dog off.
So the same thing could happen to any number of people.

Joyce

[Marina]

> wrote
>
> Mind you, I don't believe all pit bulls are evil - not by a long shot.
> I've met many who were very sweet and lovable.

Nikki once scratched a pit bull's nose when it got too close to her. I'm
glad it hadn't been trained to be aggressive. It had just been chosen the
"most beautiful pit bull" of the year at some show or other, and its owners
never spoke to me again after Nikki had marred its "beauty". ;o)

--
Marina

[JHBennett]

"Jo Firey" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > JHBennett > wrote:
> >
> > > Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually,
> > > when I hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the
> > > woman attacked for 15 minutes in her California appartment building,
> > > I'm convinced they didn't fight back.
> >
> > Are you talking about the San Francisco woman who was mauled to death by
> > a pit bull in the hallway of her building, just as she was at her front
> > door? The dog that was trained as a fighting dog, along with many
others,
> > by the woman who was with the dog at that time? (Actually, I'm not sure
> > the woman herself actually trained the fighting dogs, but she was
involved
> > with the people who did it, and she and her husband were taking care of
> > two of those dogs.)
> >
> > This case was all over the news for about 2 years in the Bay Area. The
> > woman who died was unarmed and pretty much defenseless against an
> > aggressive, strong, well-trained pit bull.
> >
>
> > Joyce
>
> The case in San Francisco, those dogs weren't pit bulls. They were a
cross between
> English Mastiff's and Canary Island Fighting dogs. Quite a bit larger and
more
> aggressive than a pit bull. The killer dog weighed 120 pounds. (The
second dog did
> not take part in the attack). Not to mention they were being "cared for"
by the
> attorneys for drug dealers who were in jail at the time. So you can
imagine the
> training those dogs had. She would have had a better chance with a pack
of wolves.
>
> Jo
That's the case I was thinking of, Jo. However, I wasn't sure of the
breed--knew it wasn't the Pit Bull. As I recall, the final stages of the
attack lasted some 15 minutes and actually happened in the woman's
appartment, after she managed to open the door. I'll grant you that, at
this point, it is only speculation but I do wonder whether she essentially
gave up, hoping the attack would end, or if she actually fought back or
actively defended herself, in some manner. Most appartments are chuck full
of weapons, if you think to use them and can get to them. Otherwise, even
bare handed, there are ways to fight back, as I've mentioned. I really don't
agree that anyone is defenseless against an animal attack. The exception,
of course, is if you do nothing to fight back and defend yourself, in which
case one really is defenseless. Might as well go down fighting, I think.
Or, said another way, sometimes you have to give luck and meanness a chance.
Incidentally, I read once that there had never been a recorded incident
of a person being attacked by wolves, in all of history--ever. If true,
it's an astonishing bit of information. I've never bothered to check it
out, but I can say I've never heard of a wolf attack upon anyone. Timber
Wolves are so plentiful in Canada, they are not protected there, you know.
Cheers,
Jack

[LOL]

"JHBennett" > wrote in message >...

> (snipped)

> Hmmmmm.... In the practical application, it might be too slow, vice the
> thrust of the thumb. For sure, you're not going to have time to light up
> ;-)))) --JB
> >
>
> Cheers,
> Jack


I wasn't planning on lighting a cigarette - that would require an
awfully patient attacker! I was assuming I'd have an already lit
cigarette in hand, which is always quite likely. :-)

------
Krista