Crying Cat

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Hello,

I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to disagree with
me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making my cats
life miserable.

I got him from a shelter two months ago, and have had him inside until
yesterday. He spends all day crying at the windows. So the past couple
days, I have let him out (I live in a bungalow in Santa Monica). I have
been following him around as he sniffs the shared yard out front.

He has yet to come back in on his own. I always have to carry him, and then
he cries to go back out. Our neighbor cats play and frolic and hang out,
and go in and out of their house. I really hope my cat learns to do the
same.

I have a friend who has had a cat for 7 years. And for seven years this cat
has cried at the windows and tried to escape every chance he gets. My
friend is great to him, and doesn't believe in letting him out.

I disagree. This cat was absolutely born to be an outside cat. And for the
last seven years, he hasn't given up trying to get out, and I don't believe
he ever will. Anytime I go over there you have to slowly open the door, put
your hand down and pick him up - when you walk in the door. Every time.
When you leave, you have to stick your foot out, and run out and slam the
door to stop him. Every time.

I won't live like that. So when my new cat started crying to go out, I'm
going to let him out.

So anyhow, this post is for the people who let their cats out. Please don't
yell at me for deciding to let my cat out, I love him so much that I can't
see him miserable.

For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he start
going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was
feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer in
spirit, and won't be coming back?

I'm scared, but resigned. If he doesn't come back. I will be very sad, and
I won't get another cat. But It's the laws of probablility. Nature takes
its course. If he wants to be here, he will come back. I'm no Jailer.

If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and the
steps I should take...

Thanks!

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Ashley]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to disagree
> with
> me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making my
> cats
> life miserable.
>
> I got him from a shelter two months ago, and have had him inside until
> yesterday. He spends all day crying at the windows. So the past couple
> days, I have let him out (I live in a bungalow in Santa Monica). I have
> been following him around as he sniffs the shared yard out front.
>

If you've had him inside for two months, he will now know the inside of your
house as his safe territory. As long as you continue feeding him, and
continue ensuring he feels inside is his safe territory, he will keep coming
back. You might like to invest in a cat door, which will make it easy for
him to come inside when he wants.

And make sure you get him micro-chipped, if that's done in your area, and/or
get a neck tag for him with his name and your phone number, so that if he
does decide to wander for any reason, anyone who finds him can contact you
to come and pick him up.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Thanks for writing back...

He's microchipped, all caught up on shots and has a collar with my info on
it. I also have a cat door on my back door. I just don't know if he'll ever
use it. I don't even think he knows it exists...

How long do you figure I should follow him around outside before I just let
him go? I'm worried that he won't know his way back...

Anyone else been through this?

Thanks!

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Dave]

In message > "Skip Turner via
CatKB.com" > wrote:

>Thanks for writing back...
>
>He's microchipped, all caught up on shots and has a collar with my info on
>it. I also have a cat door on my back door. I just don't know if he'll ever
>use it. I don't even think he knows it exists...

Have you shown him the door?

[Ashley]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for writing back...
>
> He's microchipped, all caught up on shots and has a collar with my info on
> it. I also have a cat door on my back door. I just don't know if he'll
> ever
> use it. I don't even think he knows it exists...
>
> How long do you figure I should follow him around outside before I just
> let
> him go? I'm worried that he won't know his way back...
>
> Anyone else been through this?
>
> Thanks!


My cats I first allowed outside only with me, when they were around 6 months
old. At that age, they're wanting to stick pretty close to Mum anyway. I did
that for about a month before I'd allow them a little freedom. Your cat is
older - the answer is I don't really know. Certainly for about a week I'd
make sure I was always with him when he was outside, but he may have ideas
of his own, having been an outdoor cat before. It's a good idea to let him
outside while he's still hungry (eg, early in the morning, before his
morning feed) so he gets to orientate himself while still wondering when the
food's going to arrive inside for a while.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Dear God, I spend the last three hours of my day playing with him with the
feather toy, and his catnip mouse. I have to wear him out for an hour,
before we can go to bed (he joins me). then after about three hours he gets
up and cries all night (in my one bedroom place).

I've been up for the last two hours and I'm so tired.

I have to be at work at 9 and I'm on almost no sleep. Ever since I started
letting him out, he just won't shut up. All he wants is to go out.

Well about 30 minutes ago I gave him his wish. Then i tried to go back to
bed. I couldn't, of course, sleep. He was hiding under the house, then when
he did come up - he walked away from me. Down the pathway and into the
street, Hid under a car, and walked over to the neighboring apartment
building until I grabbed him.

That was the farthest he has gone, and he was trotting recklessly without
sniffing. I don't think he would have found his way back.

Now he's back in the house, ****ed at me, and wants to go out more then
ever. I'll never get back to sleep and I hate life.

We have a great time together. He has cat furniture, catnip, toys, we play
ALL the time. I bring over the neighbors cats to play with him. He sleeps
with me, sleeps on my lap is always purring.

But he wants out. And I have no idea what to do.

I just need sleep!

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[purelife]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and the
> steps I should take...
>
> Thanks!
>

What about a building an enclosure for your cat?

http://www.thecatsden.net/index.html

http://www.thecatsden.net/gallery.html

[Karen]

http://www.thecatconnection.com/page/TCC/PROD/PLAY-KWLK/KWLK-PLAY

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Dear God, I spend the last three hours of my day playing with him with the
> feather toy, and his catnip mouse. I have to wear him out for an hour,
> before we can go to bed (he joins me). then after about three hours he
gets
> up and cries all night (in my one bedroom place).
>
> I've been up for the last two hours and I'm so tired.
>
> I have to be at work at 9 and I'm on almost no sleep. Ever since I started
> letting him out, he just won't shut up. All he wants is to go out.
>
> Well about 30 minutes ago I gave him his wish. Then i tried to go back to
> bed. I couldn't, of course, sleep. He was hiding under the house, then
when
> he did come up - he walked away from me. Down the pathway and into the
> street, Hid under a car, and walked over to the neighboring apartment
> building until I grabbed him.
>
> That was the farthest he has gone, and he was trotting recklessly without
> sniffing. I don't think he would have found his way back.
>
> Now he's back in the house, ****ed at me, and wants to go out more then
> ever. I'll never get back to sleep and I hate life.
>
> We have a great time together. He has cat furniture, catnip, toys, we play
> ALL the time. I bring over the neighbors cats to play with him. He sleeps
> with me, sleeps on my lap is always purring.
>
> But he wants out. And I have no idea what to do.
>
> I just need sleep!
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[[email protected]]

Skip Turner via CatKB.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to
disagree with
> me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making
my cats
> life miserable.
>
> I got him from a shelter two months ago, and have had him inside
until
> yesterday. He spends all day crying at the windows. So the past
couple
> days, I have let him out (I live in a bungalow in Santa Monica). I
have
> been following him around as he sniffs the shared yard out front.
>
> He has yet to come back in on his own. I always have to carry him,
and then
> he cries to go back out. Our neighbor cats play and frolic and hang
out,
> and go in and out of their house. I really hope my cat learns to do
the
> same.
>
> I have a friend who has had a cat for 7 years. And for seven years
this cat
> has cried at the windows and tried to escape every chance he gets. My
> friend is great to him, and doesn't believe in letting him out.
>
> I disagree. This cat was absolutely born to be an outside cat. And
for the
> last seven years, he hasn't given up trying to get out, and I don't
believe
> he ever will. Anytime I go over there you have to slowly open the
door, put
> your hand down and pick him up - when you walk in the door. Every
time.
> When you leave, you have to stick your foot out, and run out and slam
the
> door to stop him. Every time.
>
> I won't live like that. So when my new cat started crying to go out,
I'm
> going to let him out.
>
> So anyhow, this post is for the people who let their cats out. Please
don't
> yell at me for deciding to let my cat out, I love him so much that I
can't
> see him miserable.
>
> For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he
start
> going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was
> feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer
in
> spirit, and won't be coming back?
>
> I'm scared, but resigned. If he doesn't come back. I will be very
sad, and
> I won't get another cat. But It's the laws of probablility. Nature
takes
> its course. If he wants to be here, he will come back. I'm no Jailer.
>
> If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and
the
> steps I should take...
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

I have 5 cats, 2 of which LOVE to go out. We live in the country in a
wintry climate. When spring comes they sit at the door. When they go
out, we go out with them and sit and watch, maybe read a little, have
an iced tea, etc. We usually let them out twice a day for about an
hour. They love this and I think it has made the quality of their lives
better. But, I do want to emphasize that we stay out with them.

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-28, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
>
> For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he start
> going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was feral,
> I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer in spirit,
> and won't be coming back?

Is he neutered? That will make a difference.

Especially if he was feral, you want to make really sure he knows you're his
meal ticket (or, if you prefer, that he loves you) before letting him wander.

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[cmtowle]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to disagree
with
> me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making my
cats
> life miserable.

....snip...

> I won't live like that. So when my new cat started crying to go out, I'm
> going to let him out.
>
....snip...

> For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he
start
> going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was
> feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer in
> spirit, and won't be coming back?
>
> I'm scared, but resigned. If he doesn't come back. I will be very sad, and
> I won't get another cat. But It's the laws of probablility. Nature takes
> its course. If he wants to be here, he will come back. I'm no Jailer.
....snip...

> If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and the
> steps I should take...

Hi,
A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting them
roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that cats
can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the dangers
of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great harness/walking
jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm . Scroll down to "Popular Cat
Walking Jackets and Leash training tips". I go out with the cats daily, one
at a time. They love going out, they are safe, they are happy coming back
in, and it's the best of both worlds. They get to chase birds and
butterflies without hurting them or being hurt. If you have a relatively
quiet area where you are safe from dogs bounding over, that would be ideal.
Start getting your cat used to the jacket indoors as well as the leash, then
take slow steps outdoors when he is ready. You will love it and never look
back.

Hope this helps.

M.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the responses. An ipod and headphones got me through the
rest of the night. He is neutered, and I don't think an enclosure or
harness would exactly satisfy his desires... I think tonight I'll pass out
from sheer exhaustion, but tomorrow I'll take him out again. He'll probably
take off, and then I'll have to wait around for someone to find him.

Hopefully not.

Anyhow, I appreciate the thoughtful ideas.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[cmtowle]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Hey guys,
>
> Thanks for all the responses. An ipod and headphones got me through the
> rest of the night. He is neutered, and I don't think an enclosure or
> harness would exactly satisfy his desires...

I do not understand your assumption. It is not based on reality. You seem to
really care about your little guy and you are also pretty sure he will take
off. The outdoors can be a very scary and confusing place for them. If they
are with someone they know and trust and don't need to fend for themselves,
can smell the fresh air, have a safe way of exploring the outdoors, and
express many of their instinctive behaviours without endangering
themselves - how can that not satisfy his desires? If he has a safe way of
being outdoors and a safe cat-friendly indoors with a loving human, he will
be a very happy cat.

>I think tonight I'll pass out
> from sheer exhaustion, but tomorrow I'll take him out again. He'll
probably
> take off, and then I'll have to wait around for someone to find him.

Given the safe options available which numerous cat owners have opted for
successfully, that would be irresponsible. Lost cats roaming outdoors can
live pretty miserable lives and die horrible deaths. You have taken on the
commitment to take care of your cat. He is one of the very lucky ones.
Please keep it that way. Don't make him another casualty - there are far too
many already.

Please reconsider the walking-jacket. It may also be a very good option for
your friend's kitty.

I hope you will take the above seriously.

M.
>
> Hopefully not.
>
> Anyhow, I appreciate the thoughtful ideas.
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"cmtowle" > wrote in message
news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to disagree
> with
> > me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making my
> cats
> > life miserable.
>
> ...snip...
>
> > I won't live like that. So when my new cat started crying to go out, I'm
> > going to let him out.
> >
> ...snip...
>
> > For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he
> start
> > going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was
> > feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer in
> > spirit, and won't be coming back?
> >
> > I'm scared, but resigned. If he doesn't come back. I will be very sad,
and
> > I won't get another cat. But It's the laws of probablility. Nature takes
> > its course. If he wants to be here, he will come back. I'm no Jailer.
> ...snip...
>
> > If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and
the
> > steps I should take...
>
> Hi,
> A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting them
> roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that cats
> can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the dangers
> of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
> Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great harness/walking
> jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .

You are a good soul and wonderful to post this. However, I suspect this
would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the patience
to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
going to take the time to train the cat to a harness. Sadly, this cat is
on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.

[Mary]

"cmtowle" > wrote in message
news:_FY1e.830764$8l.498611@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > Thanks for all the responses. An ipod and headphones got me through the
> > rest of the night. He is neutered, and I don't think an enclosure or
> > harness would exactly satisfy his desires...
>
> I do not understand your assumption. It is not based on reality. You seem
to
> really care about your little guy and you are also pretty sure he will
take
> off. The outdoors can be a very scary and confusing place for them. If
they
> are with someone they know and trust and don't need to fend for
themselves,
> can smell the fresh air, have a safe way of exploring the outdoors, and
> express many of their instinctive behaviours without endangering
> themselves - how can that not satisfy his desires? If he has a safe way of
> being outdoors and a safe cat-friendly indoors with a loving human, he
will
> be a very happy cat.
>
> >I think tonight I'll pass out
> > from sheer exhaustion, but tomorrow I'll take him out again. He'll
> probably
> > take off, and then I'll have to wait around for someone to find him.
>
> Given the safe options available which numerous cat owners have opted for
> successfully, that would be irresponsible. Lost cats roaming outdoors can
> live pretty miserable lives and die horrible deaths. You have taken on the
> commitment to take care of your cat. He is one of the very lucky ones.
> Please keep it that way. Don't make him another casualty - there are far
too
> many already.
>
> Please reconsider the walking-jacket. It may also be a very good option
for
> your friend's kitty.
>

The main thing here is that the OP is losing sleep. The cat is not his
primary concern. Why he could not just stfu and open the door rather
than bothering people who really love cats and are concerned about
their welfare I do not know.

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-28, Mary penned:
>
> The main thing here is that the OP is losing sleep. The cat is not his
> primary concern. Why he could not just stfu and open the door rather than
> bothering people who really love cats and are concerned about their welfare
> I do not know.

Continuous sleep deprivation really f*cks you up, to the point where you can't
think straight and lose a lot of impulse control. He needs sleep, not just
for himself but in order to care for his cat responsibly.

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[Mary]

"Monique Y. Mudama" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-03-28, Mary penned:
> >
> > The main thing here is that the OP is losing sleep. The cat is not his
> > primary concern. Why he could not just stfu and open the door rather
than
> > bothering people who really love cats and are concerned about their
welfare
> > I do not know.
>
> Continuous sleep deprivation really f*cks you up, to the point where you
can't
> think straight and lose a lot of impulse control. He needs sleep, not
just
> for himself but in order to care for his cat responsibly.
>

Sure he does. How is Eros doing these days, do you still get reports?

[cmtowle]

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cmtowle" > wrote in message
> news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...


> > Hi,
> > A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> > perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
them
> > roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
cats
> > can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
dangers
> > of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
> > Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
harness/walking
> > jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .

>
> You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.

Thank you Mary,

>However, I suspect this
> would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the patience
> to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
> going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.

I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to have a
good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things through.

>Sadly, this cat is
> on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
> as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
> by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.

I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor access
for his cat.

In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.

M.

[kitkat]

cmtowle wrote:
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>
>
>
>>>Hi,
>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>
> them
>
>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>
> cats
>
>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>
> dangers
>
>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>
> harness/walking
>
>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>
>
>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>
>
> Thank you Mary,
>
>
>>However, I suspect this
>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the patience
>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>
>
> I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
> impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to have a
> good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
> workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things through.
>
>
>>Sadly, this cat is
>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>
>
> I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor access
> for his cat.
>
> In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
> pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
That's what counts...right?

Pam

[Karen]

in article , kitkat at
wrote on 3/28/05 8:31 PM:

> cmtowle wrote:
>> "Mary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> "cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>> news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>> perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>>
>> them
>>
>>>> roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>>
>> cats
>>
>>>> can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>>
>> dangers
>>
>>>> of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
>>>> Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>>
>> harness/walking
>>
>>>> jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>>
>>
>>> You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>>
>>
>> Thank you Mary,
>>
>>
>>> However, I suspect this
>>> would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the patience
>>> to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
>>> going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>>
>>
>> I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
>> impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to have a
>> good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
>> workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things through.
>>
>>
>>> Sadly, this cat is
>>> on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>> as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
>>> by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>>
>>
>> I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor access
>> for his cat.
>>
>> In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
>> pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>>
>> M.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
> much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
> much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
> in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
> than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
> That's what counts...right?
>
> Pam

Uh oh.

[Cheryl]

On Mon 28 Mar 2005 09:45:49p, Karen wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav ):

> Uh oh.

I thought the same thing.

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

[Mary]

"kitkat" > wrote in message
m...
> cmtowle wrote:
> > "Mary" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
> >>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
> >
> >
> >
> >>>Hi,
> >>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> >>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
> >
> > them
> >
> >>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
> >
> > cats
> >
> >>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
> >
> > dangers
> >
> >>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
etc.
> >>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
> >
> > harness/walking
> >
> >>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
> >
> >
> >>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
> >
> >
> > Thank you Mary,
> >
> >
> >>However, I suspect this
> >>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
patience
> >>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
> >>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
> >
> >
> > I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
> > impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
have a
> > good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
> > workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
through.
> >
> >
> >>Sadly, this cat is
> >>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
> >>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
> >>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
> >
> >
> > I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
access
> > for his cat.
> >
> > In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
> > pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
> >
> > M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
> much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
> much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
> in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
> than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
> That's what counts...right?
>
> Pam

Yes it is. I don't think I was chastising anyone. I just gave my take on the
situation from seeing lots of the same kind of posts over the years. Maybe
that's what you new people are for--to take care of the ones that some of
us just will not bother with, for whatever reason. I'm not going to waste
my time on people who enter the group announcing that they are going
to do something really dangerous for the cat--such as just opening the
door.

[Mary]

"Karen" > wrote in message
...
> in article , kitkat at
> wrote on 3/28/05 8:31 PM:
>
> > cmtowle wrote:
> >> "Mary" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> "cmtowle" > wrote in message
> >>> news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> >>>> perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
> >>
> >> them
> >>
> >>>> roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
> >>
> >> cats
> >>
> >>>> can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
> >>
> >> dangers
> >>
> >>>> of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
etc.
> >>>> Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
> >>
> >> harness/walking
> >>
> >>>> jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
> >>
> >>
> >>> You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you Mary,
> >>
> >>
> >>> However, I suspect this
> >>> would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
patience
> >>> to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he
is
> >>> going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
> >>
> >>
> >> I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
> >> impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
have a
> >> good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
> >> workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
through.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sadly, this cat is
> >>> on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
> >>> as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or
injured
> >>> by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
> >>
> >>
> >> I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
access
> >> for his cat.
> >>
> >> In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
> >> pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
> >>
> >> M.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
> > much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
> > much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
> > in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
> > than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
> > That's what counts...right?
> >
> > Pam
>
> Uh oh.
>

Uh oh, what you spineless weasel? Somebody answer this so pussyfied
Karen and her killfile see it. <G?

[Mary]

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon 28 Mar 2005 09:45:49p, Karen wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav ):
>
> > Uh oh.
>
> I thought the same thing.
>
> --

Oh you so cute. Woopsy! Uh oh! Yikesy! Meanwhile, Pam has more snap in her
little toenail than either you or Pussy Karen have in your entire lardy
bodies. :)

[[email protected]]

wrote:

>Meanwhile, Pam has more snap in her
>little toenail than either you or Pussy
>Karen have in your entire lardy bodies. :)

You sure spend an awful lot of time slinging insults about weight when
you have an admitted problem with it yourself.
More scummy hypocrisy.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

[em]

Is this cat neutered? If not, that could explain his desire to do a little
wandering.

You could take him outside for short bits with a cat harness and a long
lead - - at least you would have some control over where he goes and how
long he is outside. One of my friends rigged her cat's lead to an overhead
line, so the cat could go back and forth the length of the line, and outward
the length of the lead. The lead was really long, and the cat had trees to
climb, grass and flowers to get lost in, and she kept an eye out so the lead
didn't get tangled in the tree and have her end up with a 'hung kitty'. Be
careful with that - - it does happen.

And he was perfectly happy.

Mel

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I know that pretty much everybody on this website is going to disagree
> with
> me about letting cats outside, but I really don't believe in making my
> cats
> life miserable.
>
> I got him from a shelter two months ago, and have had him inside until
> yesterday. He spends all day crying at the windows. So the past couple
> days, I have let him out (I live in a bungalow in Santa Monica). I have
> been following him around as he sniffs the shared yard out front.
>
> He has yet to come back in on his own. I always have to carry him, and
> then
> he cries to go back out. Our neighbor cats play and frolic and hang out,
> and go in and out of their house. I really hope my cat learns to do the
> same.
>
> I have a friend who has had a cat for 7 years. And for seven years this
> cat
> has cried at the windows and tried to escape every chance he gets. My
> friend is great to him, and doesn't believe in letting him out.
>
> I disagree. This cat was absolutely born to be an outside cat. And for the
> last seven years, he hasn't given up trying to get out, and I don't
> believe
> he ever will. Anytime I go over there you have to slowly open the door,
> put
> your hand down and pick him up - when you walk in the door. Every time.
> When you leave, you have to stick your foot out, and run out and slam the
> door to stop him. Every time.
>
> I won't live like that. So when my new cat started crying to go out, I'm
> going to let him out.
>
> So anyhow, this post is for the people who let their cats out. Please
> don't
> yell at me for deciding to let my cat out, I love him so much that I can't
> see him miserable.
>
> For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he
> start
> going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He was
> feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a wanderer in
> spirit, and won't be coming back?
>
> I'm scared, but resigned. If he doesn't come back. I will be very sad, and
> I won't get another cat. But It's the laws of probablility. Nature takes
> its course. If he wants to be here, he will come back. I'm no Jailer.
>
> If anybody could please help me with letting a new cat outdoors - and the
> steps I should take...
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> >Meanwhile, Pam has more snap in her
> >little toenail than either you or Pussy
> >Karen have in your entire lardy bodies. :)
>
> You sure spend an awful lot of time slinging insults about weight when
> you have an admitted problem with it yourself.
> More scummy hypocrisy.
>
> Megan
>
>

Hahaha, Megan is desperate! I never said that. I once said to KellyH that
for
all she knew I might have a weight problem. But sure, whatever you say.
You've failed in proving me to be a liar, so go for hypocrite. Everyone
needs something to shoot for. heh

[kitkat]

Karen wrote:
> in article , kitkat at
> wrote on 3/28/05 8:31 PM:
>
>
>>cmtowle wrote:
>>
>>>"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>>>
>>>them
>>>
>>>
>>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>>>
>>>cats
>>>
>>>
>>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>>>
>>>dangers
>>>
>>>
>>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people, etc.
>>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>>>
>>>harness/walking
>>>
>>>
>>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you Mary,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>However, I suspect this
>>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the patience
>>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
>>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>>>
>>>
>>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
>>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to have a
>>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
>>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things through.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sadly, this cat is
>>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
>>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>>>
>>>
>>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor access
>>>for his cat.
>>>
>>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
>>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>>>
>>>M.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
>>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
>>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
>>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
>>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
>>That's what counts...right?
>>
>>Pam
>
>
> Uh oh.

What did I miss?

[kitkat]

Cheryl wrote:
> On Mon 28 Mar 2005 09:45:49p, Karen wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav ):
>
>
>>Uh oh.
>
>
> I thought the same thing.

And why? Did I say something wrong?

[kitkat]

Mary wrote:
> "kitkat" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>cmtowle wrote:
>>
>>>"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>>>
>>>them
>>>
>>>
>>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>>>
>>>cats
>>>
>>>
>>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>>>
>>>dangers
>>>
>>>
>>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
>
> etc.
>
>>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>>>
>>>harness/walking
>>>
>>>
>>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you Mary,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>However, I suspect this
>>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
>
> patience
>
>>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he is
>>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>>>
>>>
>>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
>>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
>
> have a
>
>>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
>>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
>
> through.
>
>>>
>>>>Sadly, this cat is
>>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or injured
>>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>>>
>>>
>>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
>
> access
>
>>>for his cat.
>>>
>>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
>>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>>>
>>>M.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
>>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
>>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
>>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
>>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
>>That's what counts...right?
>>
>>Pam
>
>
> Yes it is. I don't think I was chastising anyone. I just gave my take on the
> situation from seeing lots of the same kind of posts over the years. Maybe
> that's what you new people are for--to take care of the ones that some of
> us just will not bother with, for whatever reason. I'm not going to waste
> my time on people who enter the group announcing that they are going
> to do something really dangerous for the cat--such as just opening the
> door.

I hear ya.

[Mary]

"kitkat" > wrote in message
om...
> Karen wrote:
> > in article , kitkat at
> > wrote on 3/28/05 8:31 PM:
> >
> >
> >>cmtowle wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
> >>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Hi,
> >>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> >>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
> >>>
> >>>them
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
> >>>
> >>>cats
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
> >>>
> >>>dangers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
etc.
> >>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
> >>>
> >>>harness/walking
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thank you Mary,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>However, I suspect this
> >>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
patience
> >>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he
is
> >>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
> >>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
have a
> >>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
> >>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
through.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Sadly, this cat is
> >>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
> >>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or
injured
> >>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
access
> >>>for his cat.
> >>>
> >>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
> >>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
> >>>
> >>>M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
> >>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
> >>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
> >>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
> >>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
> >>That's what counts...right?
> >>
> >>Pam
> >
> >
> > Uh oh.
>
> What did I miss?

Uh oh, now you have ****ed off the Shrew Mary.
You'll have to pardon Karen, she is none too bright and
a coward on top of it.

[Mary]

"kitkat" > wrote in message
om...
> Mary wrote:
> > "kitkat" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>cmtowle wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
> >>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Hi,
> >>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
> >>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
> >>>
> >>>them
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
> >>>
> >>>cats
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
> >>>
> >>>dangers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
> >
> > etc.
> >
> >>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
> >>>
> >>>harness/walking
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thank you Mary,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>However, I suspect this
> >>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
> >
> > patience
> >
> >>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he
is
> >>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
> >>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
> >
> > have a
> >
> >>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
> >>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
> >
> > through.
> >
> >>>
> >>>>Sadly, this cat is
> >>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
> >>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or
injured
> >>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
> >
> > access
> >
> >>>for his cat.
> >>>
> >>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
> >>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
> >>>
> >>>M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
> >>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
> >>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
> >>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
> >>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
> >>That's what counts...right?
> >>
> >>Pam
> >
> >
> > Yes it is. I don't think I was chastising anyone. I just gave my take on
the
> > situation from seeing lots of the same kind of posts over the years.
Maybe
> > that's what you new people are for--to take care of the ones that some
of
> > us just will not bother with, for whatever reason. I'm not going to
waste
> > my time on people who enter the group announcing that they are going
> > to do something really dangerous for the cat--such as just opening the
> > door.
>
> I hear ya.

God it is nice to have someone with an IQ that exceeds that of
algae posting here regularly. :)

[kitkat]

Mary wrote:
> "kitkat" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Mary wrote:
>>
>>>"kitkat" > wrote in message
m...
>>>
>>>
>>>>cmtowle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>>>>>
>>>>>them
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>>>>>
>>>>>cats
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>>>>>
>>>>>dangers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
>>>
>>>etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>>>>>
>>>>>harness/walking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you Mary,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>However, I suspect this
>>>>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
>>>
>>>patience
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he
>
> is
>
>>>>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
>>>>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
>>>
>>>have a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
>>>>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
>>>
>>>through.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Sadly, this cat is
>>>>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>>>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or
>
> injured
>
>>>>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
>>>
>>>access
>>>
>>>
>>>>>for his cat.
>>>>>
>>>>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
>>>>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>>>>>
>>>>>M.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
>>>>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
>>>>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
>>>>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
>>>>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
>>>>That's what counts...right?
>>>>
>>>>Pam
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes it is. I don't think I was chastising anyone. I just gave my take on
>
> the
>
>>>situation from seeing lots of the same kind of posts over the years.
>
> Maybe
>
>>>that's what you new people are for--to take care of the ones that some
>
> of
>
>>>us just will not bother with, for whatever reason. I'm not going to
>
> waste
>
>>>my time on people who enter the group announcing that they are going
>>>to do something really dangerous for the cat--such as just opening the
>>>door.
>>
>>I hear ya.
>
>
> God it is nice to have someone with an IQ that exceeds that of
> algae posting here regularly. :)

I'm just not here to argue and fight. Doesn't mean I wont, but hey, we
all think differently and some of us have an ability to let things
go....some of us dont. ;) ;) ;)

[kitkat]

Mary wrote:
> "kitkat" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Karen wrote:
>>
>>>in article , kitkat at
wrote on 3/28/05 8:31 PM:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>cmtowle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"cmtowle" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:9ZX1e.830577$8l.290013@pd7tw1no...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>>A great "compromise" is to harness-train your cat. With patience and
>>>>>>>perseverance it can be done. I adore my cats and believe that letting
>>>>>
>>>>>them
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>roam in my area would be cruel on several levels. I can't assume that
>>>>>
>>>>>cats
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>can be "street-savvy" at all times and I won't subject them to the
>>>>>
>>>>>dangers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>of the outdoors: cars, cat fights, diseases, coyotes, other people,
>
> etc.
>
>>>>>>>Here is a web site with wonderful tips as well as a great
>>>>>
>>>>>harness/walking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>jacket: http://www.hdw-inc.com/frameset.htm .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You are a good soul and wonderful to post this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you Mary,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>However, I suspect this
>>>>>>would be just too much trouble for the OP. If he cannot find the
>
> patience
>
>>>>>>to help his cat transition to being an indoor cat, there is no way he
>
> is
>
>>>>>>going to take the time to train the cat to a harness.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I did not interpret the tone of the original post that way. I got the
>>>>>impression that "Skip" does indeed care for his cat and wants him to
>
> have a
>
>>>>>good life. Sometimes people need to become aware of other available and
>>>>>workable options and sometimes they need some time to think things
>
> through.
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Sadly, this cat is
>>>>>>on his own. Sadder still, chances are the cat will never return home
>>>>>>as it will not be able to--having been hit by a car or killed or
>
> injured
>
>>>>>>by another animal, poisoned or taken by a sicko to torture and kill.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I can only hope that "Skip" will find a way to provide safe outdoor
>
> access
>
>>>>>for his cat.
>>>>>
>>>>>In addition to the safety aspect, walking the kitties is an enormous
>>>>>pleasure for me and clearly a delight for them. Everyone wins.
>>>>>
>>>>>M.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I also think that some people come to these boards without nearly as
>>>>much cat owning experience as some of you. Not everyone realizes how
>>>>much time, effort and patience it can take. I know I have learned a lot
>>>>in the past year. Perhaps if we try to continue helping people rather
>>>>than chastising them...we will eventually be doing good by the cats.
>>>>That's what counts...right?
>>>>
>>>>Pam
>>>
>>>
>>>Uh oh.
>>
>>What did I miss?
>
>
> Uh oh, now you have ****ed off the Shrew Mary.

:::ducks and hides:::

;)

[Mary]

"kitkat" > wrote > >>>

Kawen thaid:
> >>>Uh oh.
> >>
> >>What did I miss?
> >
> >
> > Uh oh, now you have ****ed off the Shrew Mary.
>
> :::ducks and hides:::
>
> ;)

Heh heh, I scared you!

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
indoor/outdoor cats. And the people I do know who have indoor cats, just
absolutely feel like Jail Guards. I don't want to spend my life jailing a
cat, that isn't my business in life. If he wanted to stay in I would be the
happiest person in the world, but he doesn't.

He's not just meowing, he's CRYING. Miserably. It's heartbreaking when he
does it.

Actually at the moment, he's playing with 2 new mouse toys I bought him
today. I got those, I got a bunch of treats and a new bed for the window,
to compliment all his other stuff. I decided all I can do is make my home
as desirable as possible, so he will want to come back.

My Producer just told me a story about his cat that goes away on adventures
for days and comes back for days, then goes away for days. And he's totally
a happy cat. Unlike my before mentioned friends cat who just cries and
claws the door all day. FOR SEVEN YEARS. How would YOU like that life? I'd
rather have the life of the wandering cat.

So this guy was going to die. I went and got the cat that had been at the
shelter the longest. He's a few years old, and got battle scars. He can
fend for himself I'm sure... he must have SOME sort of street smarts.

Anyhow, I'd be happy to try the harness out. I'm only pessimistic is all.
Thanks for your kind words and suggestions about that.

As for the people insulting my IQ? What kind of website is this? I thought
it was supposed to be an informative BB, not a bunch of bullies.

I understand that people don't like to let their cats out, and what their
reasons are. But I also think those people underestimate their cats. Cats
are pretty amazing, and pretty smart.

You're taking away this whole part of their life. Some might say even for
your selfish companionship. Of course they love you, you're ALL they got!
Give em a choice, and are you frightened they'll find someone with better
food? Comfier furniture?

I'm giving him a choice to have a good life. Like my friend in Seattle who
has 4!! outside cats. They're always laying around his lawn and his bed.
And they're always happy.

I'm going in circles.

Last thing: I had a cat growing up. He was an extraordinary wanderer. The
whole neighborhood loved him, and fed him. He was our family cat. He was
always smiling. and he lived to be 21.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[[email protected]]

lied:

>You've failed in proving me to be a liar

I've succeeded many times and I'm going to do it again right now.

On 3/4 you wrote:
"I'm only on an oral sulfonylurea, glimepiride (Amaryl), not insulin.
We are probably going to have to add a drug. I had perfect control when
I took metformin as well -- and had weight gain from the other drgs peel
away.
Metformin (well, also acarbose) are the only drugs for diabetes,
including insulin, that do not cause weight gain. Unfortunately, when I
started taking metformin, my BUN and creatinine started inching upwards.
Sound unfortunately familiar?"

Here you admit you've gained weight. And now, since you're off the only
drugs that don't cause weight gain, it's obvious you are back on the
ones that do.

On 3/16 you wrote:
"This happened when I began weight training without dieting. I built
muscle under the layer of fat, which was not budging."

And finally:

On 3/22 you wrote:
"but I was surprised when she began to look at Deb with disapproval when
she gained weight after having her babies and did not take it off. It
actually made me think less of my mother. But it was another way I
learned from her--about a way I never want to be."

And you became it anyway, but much worse.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

[KellyH]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
> indoor/outdoor cats. And the people I do know who have indoor cats, just
> absolutely feel like Jail Guards. I don't want to spend my life jailing a
> cat, that isn't my business in life. If he wanted to stay in I would be
> the
> happiest person in the world, but he doesn't.
<snip>

Why not try the safe enclosure, like a Kittywalk or something? I don't see
where it would hurt just to try it.

--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

[Karen]

Personally, I feel it just depends on the area you are in. How safe it is.
The issue for you is not wanting him to run off get lost and not come back.
The best way to ensure that is to go out *with* him for small amounts of
time and gradually acclimate him. We had indoor outdoor cats growing up and
they did not often come to harm, however, we never let them out when we
weren't home and had them in by dark. However, I also think people are less
trust worthy these days. So there is more of a peril than there used to be.
The best thing to do is supervised outside time if you are in a safe
neighborhood (IMO). If I owned a house, I would cat proof the backyard with
something like www.catfencin.com stuff. But these are just suggestions. You
will ultimately come to find what works for you. I have to agree that *some*
cats are meant to go out. However, I don't think they have to wander.

[Mary]

> wrote in message
...
> lied:
>
> >You've failed in proving me to be a liar
>
> I've succeeded many times and I'm going to do it again right now.
>
> On 3/4 you wrote:
> "I'm only on an oral sulfonylurea, glimepiride (Amaryl), not insulin.
> We are probably going to have to add a drug. I had perfect control when
> I took metformin as well -- and had weight gain from the other drgs peel
> away.
> Metformin (well, also acarbose) are the only drugs for diabetes,
> including insulin, that do not cause weight gain. Unfortunately, when I
> started taking metformin, my BUN and creatinine started inching upwards.
> Sound unfortunately familiar?"

Megan--this is not me. I did not write this. I don't have diabetes, or
anything
else except asthma. I'm a bit underweight right now. Where did you find the
above and who are you stalking? Wah hahaha!


>
> Here you admit you've gained weight. And now, since you're off the only
> drugs that don't cause weight gain, it's obvious you are back on the
> ones that do.

I take no drugs except Advair and Claritin for my asthma and cat allergies,
you idiot. Whoever that is that you quote above, it's sure not me. LOL!
You are such a ****ing fool.


>
> On 3/16 you wrote:
> "This happened when I began weight training without dieting. I built
> muscle under the layer of fat, which was not budging."

Now this I did write. That layer of fat consisted of about ten pounds
I put on after I quit smoking. I may have tipped the scales at 7 lbs
overweight,
as I was underweight when I quit.


> And finally:
>
> On 3/22 you wrote:
> "but I was surprised when she began to look at Deb with disapproval when
> she gained weight after having her babies and did not take it off. It
> actually made me think less of my mother. But it was another way I
> learned from her--about a way I never want to be."

Deb is my sister, who had a weight problem after having babies. What
does this have to do with me?


>
> And you became it anyway, but much worse.
>

Megan--really. This is scary. The post above has nothing to do with
me at all. Are you okay? You are an annoying, self-important
moron, but I don't want you to get sick. You are far too much
fun as a punching bag.

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
> indoor/outdoor cats.

Where do you live? City? Country? Suburb? On a busy street? There are so
many things to consider. But the most important thing is, once you open that
door ANYTHING can happen to your cat.

[Mary]

I did a simple Google search on the phrase "an oral sulfonylurea,
glimepiride (Amaryl)" as I thought that would be pretty damned specific.

It was Howard Berkowitz who wrote that, you ignorant crone. Below is the
post, from rec.pets.anecdotes:

NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:32:04 -0600
From: Howard Berkowitz >
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Subject: Re: I Finally Got My Lab Results!!
References: >
>
>
>
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC)
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:32:04 -0500
Message-ID: >
Lines: 38
X-Trace:
sv3-r4iF6eMvbeudjeRq/DD4QSmqV5Y2rjMSZ597IydRt6gcn69dCVHCjh5Pr5+ZLci9p4R Dx9w+
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ULduAOyY!1q8Z0FLNqK5iRkw=
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properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.32

In article >, CATherine
> wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:14:35 -0500, Howard Berkowitz
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, "Mary"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "CATherine" > wrote in
> >> message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >*snif* I wish I could have oatmeal. Even a small cup for breakfast
> >spikes my blood sugar too high. I _like_ oatmeal. I suppose if I ever
> >get into the habit of really hard post-breakfast workouts, I can have
> >it. Ironically, my lipid levels aren't terribly affected by eggs, given
> >that I _must_ take lipid lowering drugs due to genetics.
>
> Wow! I never heard of not being able to eat something as homely as
> oatmeal. I don't suppose you could just take some extra insulin? I
> know, dumb question. Now I will think of you every time I eat it.
> Maybe you will catch the essence of my enjoyment and toast to you in
> your dreams. :-)

I'm only on an oral sulfonylurea, glimepiride (Amaryl), not insulin. We
are probably going to have to add a drug. I had perfect control when I
took metformin as well -- and had weight gain from the other drgs peel
away.

Metformin (well, also acarbose) are the only drugs for diabetes,
including insulin, that do not cause weight gain. Unfortunately, when I
started taking metformin, my BUN and creatinine started inching upwards.
Sound unfortunately familiar?

My endocrinologist and I are talking about a new trial of metformin,
starting with an EXTREMELY low dose. There are reports that people can
build up tolerance to the (sometimes) renal toxicicity.

---------------End of Howard's Post-------------------------


Now then. Back to the Google board for you. What a hoot.
It is so much fun to watch you simmer in your own impotent
rage and stumble all over yourself.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
>Megan--this is not me. I did not write
>this.

You're right. I was looking at the wrong thing. See, Mary, unlike you I
don't have a problem admitting mistakes.

However:

>>On 3/16 you wrote:
>>"This happened when I began weight
>>training without dieting. I built muscle
>>under the layer of fat, which was not
>>budging."

>Now this I did write. That layer of fat
>consisted of about ten pounds I put on
>after I quit smoking. I may have tipped the
>scales at 7 lbs overweight,
>as I was underweight when I quit.

But it was still weight you didn't want and you do say you were
overweight.

>>And finally:
>>On 3/22 you wrote:
>>"but I was surprised when she began to
>>look at Deb with disapproval when she
>>gained weight after having her babies and
>>did not take it off. It actually made me
>>think less of my mother. But it was
>>another way I learned from her--about a
>>way I never want to be."

>Deb is my sister, who had a weight
>problem after having babies. What does
>this have to do with me?

It has every thing to do with you and it's clear in the vast difference
between what you say and how you behave.

>>And you became it anyway, but much
>>worse.

>Megan--really. This is scary. The post
>above has nothing to do with me at all.

Again, it has every thing to do with you. You are critical of your
mother for judging your sister because of her weight, yet you do exactly
the same here by slinging weight related insults. You are no different
than your mother in that respect. It's just another example of the
rampant hypocrisy you exhibit day in and day out on this newsgroup.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

It's 5am again, and I've been up for over an hour! He just won't shut up.
He goes for hours and hours and hours crying and crying and crying!!!!!!! I
need sleep so bad. I dont know what to do, music wont help.

I am now going to a hotel down the street to sleep for 3 hours.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Justin L]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:41:23 GMT, "Skip Turner via CatKB.com"
> wrote:

>Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
>indoor/outdoor cats. And the people I do know who have indoor cats, just
>absolutely feel like Jail Guards. I don't want to spend my life jailing a
>cat, that isn't my business in life. If he wanted to stay in I would be the
>happiest person in the world, but he doesn't.

I would think it all depends on where you are located. If you are by
busy highways, I would not let him just wander off.


>He's not just meowing, he's CRYING. Miserably. It's heartbreaking when he
>does it.

Have you tried putting him by an open window? It may help calm him
down if he can look outside and watch birds and things.


Justin

<snip>

[Laura M]

I shouldn't be laughing here, but what the heck. Your story is cute
even though you need some sleep. What we don't do for our furry loved
ones!

[[email protected]]

>It's 5am again, and I've been up for over
>an hour! He just won't shut up. He goes
>for hours and hours and hours crying and
>crying and crying!!!!!!! I need sleep so
>bad. I dont know what to do, music wont
>help.
>=A0=A0I am now going to a hotel down the
>street to sleep for 3 hours.

By letting him out when he cries, you are creating a bigger problem and
rewarding him for his behavior. From what you've described, I am certain
there will come a point where he will just disappear, or if allowed to
roam, will come to harm. Take the advice of CMTowle and get a harness
and leash.

Take him out on that at about the same time each evening and make it a
routine.

Also feed him on a 12 hour schedule and make the times as late as
possible so he has a later evening meal.

Set up a bed and water for him in a room away from your bedroom (the
bathroom for example) and confine him there just before you go to bed at
night.

If you have a window in your bathroom, crack it just a little so he can
smell the night air.

Use earplugs.

You'll have to be consistent and do all of these things. Be patient and
the behavior will eventually subside. You've inadvertantly made this
situation worse and will take a little time to undo it. Anotherthing
youmay want to consider is adopting a friend for your cat that is
playful and outgoing. If you do a proper and slow introduction your cat
will have a playmate and will have more stuff to do than just think
about going outside.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-29, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
> Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
> indoor/outdoor cats. And the people I do know who have indoor cats, just
> absolutely feel like Jail Guards. I don't want to spend my life jailing a
> cat, that isn't my business in life. If he wanted to stay in I would be the
> happiest person in the world, but he doesn't.

Well, I got Oscar as a young kitten, and she's never been excessively
interested in the outdoors. I don't feel like a jail guard. I've
occasionally felt guilty, but I've never lived in an area that's remotely safe
for cats. When I first got her, we were in an apartment right on a very busy
intersection, and I didn't know my neighbors at all. Then I moved into my
brother's townhouse, and the area was still under construction; muddy, loud
noises, and uninhabited houses where a cat might get trapped accidentally.
Now I live in Colorado, where coyotes and mountain lions are a fact of life.
I've seen way too many "lost cat" signs to risk Oscar, who's never encountered
a predator in her life.

Now, I don't know your cat. I don't know how miserable he is. I know there's
a poster on the anecdotes newsgroup who has a cat who gets urinary tract
infections, pees all over the place, and bloodies himself in frustration when
he can't go outside. There are certainly cats who cannot be happy indoors. I
think they're in the minority, but there are some.

I don't see the indoor/outdoor question as being as black and white as some
do. It does have to do with quality of life. If the cat truly is miserable
for its entire existence, maybe letting it go outside is better.
Unfortunately, it's opening yourself to a lot of heartache and worrying, too.

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-29, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
> It's 5am again, and I've been up for over an hour! He just won't shut up.
> He goes for hours and hours and hours crying and crying and crying!!!!!!! I
> need sleep so bad. I dont know what to do, music wont help.

Is he specifically crying to be let out, or is he crying at you?

> I am now going to a hotel down the street to sleep for 3 hours.
>

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[Mary]

> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> >Megan--this is not me. I did not write
> >this.
>
> You're right. I was looking at the wrong thing. See, Mary, unlike you I
> don't have a problem admitting mistakes.
>
> However:
>
> >>On 3/16 you wrote:
> >>"This happened when I began weight
> >>training without dieting. I built muscle
> >>under the layer of fat, which was not
> >>budging."
>
> >Now this I did write. That layer of fat
> >consisted of about ten pounds I put on
> >after I quit smoking. I may have tipped the
> >scales at 7 lbs overweight,
> >as I was underweight when I quit.
>
> But it was still weight you didn't want and you do say you were
> overweight.
>
> >>And finally:
> >>On 3/22 you wrote:
> >>"but I was surprised when she began to
> >>look at Deb with disapproval when she
> >>gained weight after having her babies and
> >>did not take it off. It actually made me
> >>think less of my mother. But it was
> >>another way I learned from her--about a
> >>way I never want to be."
>
> >Deb is my sister, who had a weight
> >problem after having babies. What does
> >this have to do with me?
>
> It has every thing to do with you and it's clear in the vast difference
> between what you say and how you behave.
>
> >>And you became it anyway, but much
> >>worse.
>
> >Megan--really. This is scary. The post
> >above has nothing to do with me at all.
>
> Again, it has every thing to do with you. You are critical of your
> mother for judging your sister because of her weight, yet you do exactly
> the same here by slinging weight related insults. You are no different
> than your mother in that respect. It's just another example of the
> rampant hypocrisy you exhibit day in and day out on this newsgroup.
>

Hee. Tell me more, please. By God but you are an idiot.

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> It's 5am again, and I've been up for over an hour! He just won't shut up.
> He goes for hours and hours and hours crying and crying and crying!!!!!!!
I
> need sleep so bad. I dont know what to do, music wont help.
>
> I am now going to a hotel down the street to sleep for 3 hours.
>

Do you let him sleep with you if he wants? Where is he at night?
does he have the roam of the house or do you shut him somewhere?

[Mary]

> wrote in message
...
>It's 5am again, and I've been up for over
>an hour! He just won't shut up. He goes
>for hours and hours and hours crying and
>crying and crying!!!!!!! I need sleep so
>bad. I dont know what to do, music wont
>help.
> I am now going to a hotel down the
>street to sleep for 3 hours.

By letting him out when he cries, you are creating a bigger problem and
rewarding him for his behavior. From what you've described, I am certain
there will come a point where he will just disappear, or if allowed to
roam, will come to harm. Take the advice of CMTowle and get a harness
and leash.

Take him out on that at about the same time each evening and make it a
routine.

Also feed him on a 12 hour schedule and make the times as late as
possible so he has a later evening meal.

Set up a bed and water for him in a room away from your bedroom (the
bathroom for example) and confine him there just before you go to bed at
night.

If you have a window in your bathroom, crack it just a little so he can
smell the night air.

Use earplugs.

You'll have to be consistent and do all of these things. Be patient and
the behavior will eventually subside. You've inadvertantly made this
situation worse and will take a little time to undo it. Anotherthing
youmay want to consider is adopting a friend for your cat that is
playful and outgoing. If you do a proper and slow introduction your cat
will have a playmate and will have more stuff to do than just think
about going outside.

Megan



**And get a HEPA filter for right next to your bed. They help
drown out night sounds.

[cmtowle]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Am I crazy? I don't understand. I have so many friends and co-workers with
> indoor/outdoor cats. And the people I do know who have indoor cats, just
> absolutely feel like Jail Guards. I don't want to spend my life jailing a
> cat, that isn't my business in life. If he wanted to stay in I would be
the
> happiest person in the world, but he doesn't.

Hi,

You do not know yet whether your cat will be perfectly happy inside once he
is completely used to his new home. If he has an outlet for climbing,
scratching, lounging, a well-screened window from which he can look out into
the world, sniff and hear the outdoors he will adapt well. 2 months really
isn't a long time for a "battle-scarred" cat that is probably used to having
been left outdoors before being in a shelter situation for some time. He is
traumatised and wants out which is what he knows. Some people with
indoor/outdoor cats either spend a lot of time worrying when their cats
don't come home or have cats that do not roam and stay nearby, or simply
don't think about where their cat might have been during the day or when
they disappear for days/months. Cats adapt *or not* to the dangers of the
outdoors and adapting does not necessarily mean that they are happy. But
even the most street-smart cat can get accidentally trapped, lost, injured,
find himself fighting other cats for food and/or territory, etc. It is
simply the luck of the draw and that is one preventable risk you have
control over if you choose to share your home with a cat. Your cat doesn't
*know* that he is safer indoors; he doesn't *know* what he can run into
outside - he deals with it as best he can. Sometimes we have the
romanticized notion that life spent outdoors roaming is a life of happiness.
It is not so for millions of cats. I think that those of us, who have been
exposed through vets, rescue situations, shelters, friends, neighbours, etc.
to the horrific consequences of cats being allowed to roam, are more likely
to do whatever we possibly can to make cats' lives as safe and yet as
pleasurable as possible. And yes, that means providing indoor and outdoor
safety if that is possible. In your case, this sounds very feasible and you
sound caring enough to make it happen. It will simply take time,
persistence, and compassion.

>
> He's not just meowing, he's CRYING. Miserably. It's heartbreaking when he
> does it.

Given the bit of history you provided, this is entirely plausible. However,
it will be much more heartbreaking if he goes out and either never returns,
leaving you to wonder what happened to him and it's often not pretty, or
returns injured, diseased, poisoned, fea-ridden, emaciated, sick, etc.

>
> Actually at the moment, he's playing with 2 new mouse toys I bought him
> today. I got those, I got a bunch of treats and a new bed for the window,
> to compliment all his other stuff.

Great, if he's playing, he is showing signs of being, at least, somewhat
content.

>I decided all I can do is make my home
> as desirable as possible, so he will want to come back.

No, making your home as desirable as possible so that he is equally happy
being in a stimulating environment indoors and won't *miss* being outdoors
but will enjoy being outdoors with you. In time, the harness is something he
just gets used to and means - "oh! goody, we are going out".

>
> My Producer just told me a story about his cat that goes away on
adventures
> for days and comes back for days, then goes away for days. And he's
totally
> a happy cat. Unlike my before mentioned friends cat who just cries and
> claws the door all day. FOR SEVEN YEARS. How would YOU like that life? I'd
> rather have the life of the wandering cat.

Your producer's cat has been very lucky so far, that's all. I wouldn't want
to take that chance. I love the animals I am lucky enough to share my life
with far too much. Even though you portrayed your friend's cat as being well
looked after, I have to question whether this cat's needs are being truly
met if he claws the door all day. Something is not right. Cats need
stimulation, they do get bored and frustrated and they tell us in many ways.
This is one of them. He may need a feline companion, he may need more
playtime, he may need more vertical space, toys, being walked outdoors, safe
outdoor space, screened windows, perches, whatever. This is the sign of a
cat that is understimulated and something is making him unhappy. It does not
mean his needs can only be met roaming outdoors.
>
> So this guy was going to die. I went and got the cat that had been at the
> shelter the longest. He's a few years old, and got battle scars. He can
> fend for himself I'm sure... he must have SOME sort of street smarts.

He probably does. But that does not mean, clearly, that outdoors is a fun
and safe area for him. His battle scars tell you that he has had to fight
off other animals/cats. This may be natural for outdoor animals, but it
doesn't mean it is a good life.
>
> Anyhow, I'd be happy to try the harness out. I'm only pessimistic is all.
> Thanks for your kind words and suggestions about that.

I am delighted that you are willing to try the harness. Do make sure you get
the walking jacket. They are sturdy, adjustable, and pretty much
escape-proof. Please do not be pessimistic. Do follow the instructions, even
if your cat seems not to like it in the beginning. Be patient. Let him walk
around with it. It does take time and while you are "persuading" him that
this will be a fun thing, it will also be a stimulating exercise for him.
Something new. Cats are creatures of habit and what they don't know may not
please them at first. Patience, patience, patience, and take it at his pace,
not yours.

> As for the people insulting my IQ? What kind of website is this? I thought
> it was supposed to be an informative BB, not a bunch of bullies.

The net attracts all kinds of people and the anonymity allows many to be
obnoxious or worse. Filter through those, ignore them, and take what is
helpful and there is a lot of helpful info.
>
> I understand that people don't like to let their cats out, and what their
> reasons are. But I also think those people underestimate their cats. Cats
> are pretty amazing, and pretty smart.

I agree. Cats are amazing, but we also tend to overestimate their ability to
dodge dangers. Some dangers, they simply don't recognize: anti-freeze,
sleeping under a car in the shade, going off with a cruel human who feeds
them, etc. The unknowns are just too great for my liking.
>
> You're taking away this whole part of their life. Some might say even for
> your selfish companionship. Of course they love you, you're ALL they got!
> Give em a choice, and are you frightened they'll find someone with better
> food? Comfier furniture?

Well, since we have domesticated them, we, in reality, are taking many parts
of their lives - the hunt for food, procreating and allowing millions more
cats to live and die miserably, finding a safe place to sleep, urinate and
defecate, competing for territory, mates, etc. I would not be frightened
that they will find someone better - I'd be frightened of all of the unknown
possibilities outdoors which might very possibly hurt them.

>
> I'm giving him a choice to have a good life. Like my friend in Seattle who
> has 4!! outside cats. They're always laying around his lawn and his bed.
> And they're always happy.
>
> I'm going in circles.

You will give him a good life - you will give him a better life than he has
had. No more battle scars, no more fending for himself, and a stimulating
and safe life indoors and outdoors! If we could ask him, he would surely let
you know that that's the life he would want.
>
> Last thing: I had a cat growing up. He was an extraordinary wanderer. The
> whole neighborhood loved him, and fed him. He was our family cat. He was
> always smiling. and he lived to be 21.

Times and our environments have changed unfortunately and we need to adapt.

Get sleep and do not react whenever he cries; you will be simply reinforcing
his behaviour.

Thank you for being willing to give your cat the best chance at a good life.
He will reward you in many ways. It will take patience and love on your
part. And many are here to help you along the way.

M.
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Cmtowle,

Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think about...

He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At night,
every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.

Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries. For 10 hours straight. No
break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
Brian Eno music.

He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
out.

My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
(really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
sleep.

This weekend I will try a harness.

One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take him
outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass and
sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless he
gets under the house).

I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep... But
he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him
out alone. Millions of cat owners with outdoor cats must be able to answer
this question?? When did you start letting your cat out alone?

Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it!

Oh yeah, I live in a great bungalow with a yard and fence and palm trees
near the water. There is small neighborhood streets nearby, and PCH is a
few blocks away. But all my neighbor's cats just stick around here.

He's crying right now at the door again =(

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Karen]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Cmtowle,
>
> Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
about...
>
> He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
> TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
night,
> every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
>
> Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries. For 10 hours straight.
No
> break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> Brian Eno music.
>
> He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
> out.
>
> My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
> sleep.
>
> This weekend I will try a harness.
>
> One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take him
> outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass and
> sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless he
> gets under the house).
>
> I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep... But
> he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him
> out alone. Millions of cat owners with outdoor cats must be able to answer
> this question?? When did you start letting your cat out alone?
>
> Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it!
>
> Oh yeah, I live in a great bungalow with a yard and fence and palm trees
> near the water. There is small neighborhood streets nearby, and PCH is a
> few blocks away. But all my neighbor's cats just stick around here.
>
> He's crying right now at the door again =(
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Boy, then if *I* were you, I'd just cat fence that yard and put in a pet
door for him. THat's me though. Seriously though, you can do some pretty
cool stuff that is also attractive and useful for you. Take a look at this:

http://www.lightheartedpress.com/cat_enclosure.htm

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Cmtowle,
>
> Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
about...
>
> He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
> TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
night,
> every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
>
> Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries. For 10 hours straight.
No
> break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> Brian Eno music.
>

There you have it. If you had never let him out you would not have this
problem. You created the problem. Now summon some patience and
deal with him until he forgets about it.

[Ashley]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Cmtowle,
>
> Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
> about...
>
> He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
> TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
> night,
> every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
>
> Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries. For 10 hours straight.
> No
> break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> Brian Eno music.
>
> He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
> out.
>
> My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
> sleep.

I would also suggest you harden up and start training him that crying during
the night simply isn't acceptable.

1. Stop allowing him to sleep with you.
2. Make a routine of taking him to a separate room, as far from your bedroom
as you can get, with food, water, a litter tray and stuff to play with when
you go to bed each night.
3. Close the door
4. Walk away.
5. Go to your bedroom.
6. Close the door
7. Put some earplugs in.
8. Go to sleep.
9. DON'T get up to him at all during the night.

Repeat for several days.

Problem solved :-)

(If you're being put up in a hotel, start doing this when you're in the
hotel. That will make it easier for you, and after 2-3 days of no response,
he may even be starting to get the message by the time you return to your
own bed.)

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-29, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
>
> I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep... But
> he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him out
> alone. Millions of cat owners with outdoor cats must be able to answer this
> question?? When did you start letting your cat out alone?

Do you have a basement or anywhere in your house that's isolated? If Oscar
decides to get feisty at night, I lock her in the basement. She has a
litterbox and water there, but I can't hear her.

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[Meghan Noecker]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:54:45 -0600, wrote:


>
>But it was still weight you didn't want and you do say you were
>overweight.
>

What does this have to do with cats? Why did you start googling for
these posts in the first place? Is there some reason that the whole
groups needs to know this information?

If this is in response to a particular topic, perhaps you could keep
it *with* that topic?


--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

[[email protected]]

Meghan wrote:
>What does this have to do with cats?
>Why did you start googling for these posts
>in the first place? Is there some reason
>that the whole groups needs to know this
>information?

Ask Mary. And while your at it, do a hypocrisy check at the door. You've
posted plenty of OT garbage and nobody's complained so STFU.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

[Cheryl]

On Mon 28 Mar 2005 11:38:02p, kitkat wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
. com):

> Cheryl wrote:
>> On Mon 28 Mar 2005 09:45:49p, Karen wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>> ):
>>
>>
>>>Uh oh.
>>
>>
>> I thought the same thing.
>
> And why? Did I say something wrong?
>

Uh, nevermind.

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

[Mary]

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon 28 Mar 2005 11:38:02p, kitkat wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> . com):
>
> > Cheryl wrote:
> >> On Mon 28 Mar 2005 09:45:49p, Karen wrote in
> >> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> >> ):
> >>
> >>
> >>>Uh oh.
> >>
> >>
> >> I thought the same thing.
> >
> > And why? Did I say something wrong?
> >
>
> Uh, nevermind.
>

We already covered it, you spineless jackass.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Dear God, like I said I'm no Jail Guard. And I like him sleeping with me.
What's wrong with you people, they're cats not convicts?

And as I said before. He's a big ass alley cat. He lived outside for a year
before I rescued him. I didn't introduce him to the outside.

I'm sorry but there are too many narrow minded people on this board for me,
I'll be asking my questions elsewhere from now on.

Goodbye, enjoy your hog tied, jailbird cats.

Skip.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

And to the people who really tried to help, I wholeheartedly thank you.

Skip.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Dear God, like I said I'm no Jail Guard. And I like him sleeping with me.
> What's wrong with you people, they're cats not convicts?
>
> And as I said before. He's a big ass alley cat. He lived outside for a
year
> before I rescued him. I didn't introduce him to the outside.


If you had brought him in and KEPT him in you would not be having
this problem. Skip. You blew it.

>
> I'm sorry but there are too many narrow minded people on this board for
me,
> I'll be asking my questions elsewhere from now on.
>
> Goodbye, enjoy your hog tied, jailbird cats.
>

You bet. Ours will surely be around a lot longer than yours if
you let him roam. You made a mistake--now deal with it, don't
whine about it. Keep him in, and keep him in a room farthest
away from yours while you sleep, use earplugs, etc. until he
gets acclimated to the outside. Or take the easy way out
and open that door and lose him. I have a feeling you are
only here to try to justify letting him out where you know he
will come to harm anyway. I guess he is just not worth the
effort.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Mary, you're a hater. I can't stand people like you. The world really isn't
that black and white. And you have NO idea what kind of effort I have, and
continue to go through, for my cat.

I'm really glad I'm not one of your cats. Hopefully when you die, you get
reincarnated as a housecat living with a slavedriver like yourself.

And I'm not just opening the door and letting him go. I went and got him
last time I did that, and he was out for roughly ten minutes. I was
delirious from no sleep. I'm taking him out with me, until he gets used to
it.

Some birds aren't meant to be caged. Mine is one of them.

How could you even dare say I don't put out the effort. I haven't slept in
4 days!

So thanks for judging me, now I'll judge you. It sounds like your cats are
all you got. And even THEY don't like you.

B I T C H.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Mary, you're a hater. I can't stand people like you. The world really
isn't
> that black and white. And you have NO idea what kind of effort I have, and
> continue to go through, for my cat.

Skip, I appreciate your opinion of me. However, we are talking about
your cat. You blew it by letting him out in the first place, and now
you are refusing all advice that would allow you to keep him inside
where he is safe.

My assessment is correct: you came here looking for justification
to open that door and put your cat in danger.

>
> I'm really glad I'm not one of your cats. Hopefully when you die, you get
> reincarnated as a housecat living with a slavedriver like yourself.
>
> And I'm not just opening the door and letting him go. I went and got him
> last time I did that, and he was out for roughly ten minutes. I was
> delirious from no sleep. I'm taking him out with me, until he gets used to
> it.

Skip, what the hell does this mean? "Until he gets used to it?" What exactly
is he getting used to? Do you imagine that going out and standing there
for a few times will somehow make him safer when you just open the
door and oust him so you can sleep?


>
> Some birds aren't meant to be caged. Mine is one of them.
>
> How could you even dare say I don't put out the effort. I haven't slept in
> 4 days!
>
> So thanks for judging me, now I'll judge you. It sounds like your cats are
> all you got. And even THEY don't like you.
>
> B I T C H.
>


That works for me. But the fact still remains that you should not put your
cat outside because you are frustrated and are not willing to use the means
many others have suggested to get him accustomed to staying in where he
is safe.

You are not a good guardian, and in fact you are endangering your cat
because you are selfish and lazy. Get the goddamned ear plugs and the
HEPA filter, and make him a place to stay at night that is far away from
where you sleep. If you don't, you are a cat abuser. Personally I would
rather be a bitch. Now stop rationalizing and do the right thing.

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-30, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
>
> How could you even dare say I don't put out the effort. I haven't slept in 4
> days!

Ever heard the phrase, "Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes
perfect"? You can put in tons of effort, and if you're not trying the right
things, you won't see the results you're looking for.

Putting a cat in a room where you can't hear it when it's whining so much that
you can't sleep (and consequently can't think straight) isn't being a jail
guard; it's being sensible! If you make sure the cat has adequate room, toys,
water, and a litterbox, it's really not a big deal.

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

What world are you living in?! I'm a cat abuser because I let him outside?
So most of my neighbors and friends and co workers are also cat abuser's in
your small little mind?

You know, I see caged dogs, and poor poor apartment cats sitting in cramped
studios gazing longingly out the windows. Those are horrible lives.

Don't ever plan on having kids Mary.

I'm not looking for justification for letting a cat outside, re-read my
first post. I was looking for advice.

I think you're a cat abuser for forcing a helpless little animal to live in
your crappy little world.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> What world are you living in?! I'm a cat abuser because I let him outside?
> So most of my neighbors and friends and co workers are also cat abuser's
in
> your small little mind?
>
> You know, I see caged dogs, and poor poor apartment cats sitting in
cramped
> studios gazing longingly out the windows. Those are horrible lives.
>
> Don't ever plan on having kids Mary.
>
> I'm not looking for justification for letting a cat outside, re-read my
> first post. I was looking for advice.
>
> I think you're a cat abuser for forcing a helpless little animal to live
in
> your crappy little world.
>
> --

Okay. But the fact remains that you are going to open the door and
leave this cat at the mercy of whatever he encounters outside. Just do
it, if that is what you have decided. But don't come to a place where
people love cats and expect to be praised for endangering your cat.
Grow up, pussy boy. Do the right thing, or do the wrong thing, but
take responsibility for your actions.

[Ashley]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Dear God, like I said I'm no Jail Guard. And I like him sleeping with me.
> What's wrong with you people, they're cats not convicts?
>

I assume you're responding to me, but it's difficult to tell because you've
left no context in your post (most of these posts do not originate on your
board, they originate on usenet, and your board reposts them).

It's your decision, which you want most - a cat that sleeps on your bed, or
sanity and enough sleep. Ensuring that you get a good night's sleep does not
harm the cat. Driving yourself to distraction does.


> And as I said before. He's a big ass alley cat. He lived outside for a
> year
> before I rescued him. I didn't introduce him to the outside.
>
> I'm sorry but there are too many narrow minded people on this board for
> me,
> I'll be asking my questions elsewhere from now on.
>
> Goodbye, enjoy your hog tied, jailbird cats.


My cats are free to come and go as they please. But they don't sleep in my
room with me and never have - because I enjoy my sleep and don't want to be
woken by them. The door has been closed on them since they were kittens, and
they learned very quickly that scratching at the door or meowing at me
didn't get the response they wanted. As a result, we are all free to enjoy
our lives :-)

[cmtowle]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Cmtowle,
>
> Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
about...

You are most welcome. Yes, there are many variables and options and you will
find the right one, just give yourself and your cat time and above all do
not be dejected about the possibility of change. It will just take time and
probably some more sleep-deprived nights...not fun, but in the long run
worthwhile. The important thing to do consistently is to *not* react when he
cries at night. He will soon learn that crying will not get him any
attention and he will stop. When he is with you and not crying, stroke him
and praise him lavishly. Spend as much time with him as you can playing hard
and tuckering him out close to bedtime.
>
> He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
> TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
night,
> every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
>
> Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries.

The fact that things were fine before bodes well. This is new learned
behaviour that you have reinforced - it can be unlearned, but you have to be
consistent. I also think that when he gets used to going out on a harness
with you during the day and because he is clearly happy in his new home, you
have a very good chance of success.

>For 10 hours straight. No
> break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> Brian Eno music.

Do what you can to drown out the cries - perhaps a "white noise" generator?
>
> He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
> out.

My guess is that when he gets to go out with you, he'll be happy to come
back in when he gets the message that going out with you happens often.
>
> My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
> sleep.

This may actually help break the behaviour since he will realize that when
you are not there, crying does nothing and when you return, you are not
reacting.
>
> This weekend I will try a harness.

Remember that it might well take time for him to get used to a harness, so
be patient. If you get one to try before you get the walking jacket, make
sure it's an adjustable "H-type" harness with plastic "snap" closures not
buckles. I do not like the "8-type" harnesses as in my experience they
tighten and do not adjust well. The walking jacket is an "H-type" with
sections of nylon fabric rather than just having straps and it is generally
sturdier. The link in my first post gives you clear photos and lots of tips
on training.

>
> One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take him
> outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass and
> sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless he
> gets under the house).

Excellent.
>
> I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep... But
> he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him
> out alone.

You know my take on this.

Good luck, be consistent and patient. And, do not let some posts get to you.
Take what works for you and leave the rest. There really is a lot of good
information in this group.


M.

>Millions of cat owners with outdoor cats must be able to answer
> this question?? When did you start letting your cat out alone?
>
> Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it!
>
> Oh yeah, I live in a great bungalow with a yard and fence and palm trees
> near the water. There is small neighborhood streets nearby, and PCH is a
> few blocks away. But all my neighbor's cats just stick around here.
>
> He's crying right now at the door again =(
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"cmtowle" > wrote in message
news:21s2e.844507$Xk.440849@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Cmtowle,
> >
> > Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
> about...
>
> You are most welcome. Yes, there are many variables and options and you
will
> find the right one, just give yourself and your cat time and above all do
> not be dejected about the possibility of change. It will just take time
and
> probably some more sleep-deprived nights...not fun, but in the long run
> worthwhile. The important thing to do consistently is to *not* react when
he
> cries at night. He will soon learn that crying will not get him any
> attention and he will stop. When he is with you and not crying, stroke him
> and praise him lavishly. Spend as much time with him as you can playing
hard
> and tuckering him out close to bedtime.
> >
> > He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays,
watches
> > TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> > scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
> night,
> > every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
> >
> > Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> > continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> > outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries.
>
> The fact that things were fine before bodes well. This is new learned
> behaviour that you have reinforced - it can be unlearned, but you have to
be
> consistent. I also think that when he gets used to going out on a harness
> with you during the day and because he is clearly happy in his new home,
you
> have a very good chance of success.
>
> >For 10 hours straight. No
> > break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> > Brian Eno music.
>
> Do what you can to drown out the cries - perhaps a "white noise"
generator?
> >
> > He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> > purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
> > out.
>
> My guess is that when he gets to go out with you, he'll be happy to come
> back in when he gets the message that going out with you happens often.
> >
> > My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> > (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> > going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
> > sleep.
>
> This may actually help break the behaviour since he will realize that when
> you are not there, crying does nothing and when you return, you are not
> reacting.
> >
> > This weekend I will try a harness.
>
> Remember that it might well take time for him to get used to a harness, so
> be patient. If you get one to try before you get the walking jacket, make
> sure it's an adjustable "H-type" harness with plastic "snap" closures not
> buckles. I do not like the "8-type" harnesses as in my experience they
> tighten and do not adjust well. The walking jacket is an "H-type" with
> sections of nylon fabric rather than just having straps and it is
generally
> sturdier. The link in my first post gives you clear photos and lots of
tips
> on training.
>
> >
> > One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take him
> > outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass and
> > sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless he
> > gets under the house).
>
> Excellent.
> >
> > I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep...
But
> > he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him
> > out alone.
>
> You know my take on this.

And your take is the same as mine. All this asshole wants is for someone
to tell him it is okay to do what he KNOWS is NOT okay to do.



>
> Good luck, be consistent and patient. And, do not let some posts get to
you.
> Take what works for you and leave the rest. There really is a lot of good
> information in this group.
>
>

And boatloads of horse**** too. Congrats for being the sort of person
who is phony enough to attempt to manipulate this moron into doing
the right thing. I'm truly glad someone has the patience for it. Some people
are simply not worth the respect it takes to just tell them the truth.

[Meghan Noecker]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:04:54 -0600, wrote:

>Meghan wrote:
>>What does this have to do with cats?
>>Why did you start googling for these posts
>>in the first place? Is there some reason
>>that the whole groups needs to know this
>>information?
>
>Ask Mary. And while your at it, do a hypocrisy check at the door. You've
>posted plenty of OT garbage and nobody's complained so STFU.
>


I can only think of one issue that was off topic, and several people
were interested and involved. When it became too much, I left the
topic.

This seems to be out of right field, having nothing to do with any of
the current topics. That is why I asked. It seems like you just
started it up out of the blue.


--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

[[email protected]]

"For those people. How can I introduce him to the outside? When can he
start going out unattended? Will he ever want to come in on his own? He
was feral, I believe, before I got him... Does this mean he is a
wanderer in
spirit, and won't be coming back?"

Leaving apart the philosophizing about indoor vs. outdoors for now:

"How can I introduce him to the outside/"

Go outside with him and watch where he goes and what he does. A harness
can be a good way to do this if he will cooperate, but a former stray
may not be willing. Yes, this can mean circumventing some hedges - lol,
but try to keep an eye on him. If he heads for the street or cars, pick
him up and redirect him. If he wanders out of your eyesite, call to him
and reward him with treats for coming when called. If he runs off and
doesn't respond to your calls, then take him inside and don't go out
with him for a while. If he does, then up the frequency. If you do this
consistently for a few weeks, he'll understand that he is to stay
within voice range of the house and that those are your "terms" for
outdoor access.

"When can he start going out unattended?"

Do a very serious analysis of the safety of the immediate area. Some
areas are not so bad and others are kitty deathtraps. Think about
predators, traffic, unleashed dogs, antifreeze. You may or may not
live in an area where unattended is possible. Talk to your nrighbors
with indoor/outdoor cats. Do understand that the territorial
imperatives of male cats ensure that he will wander at least as far as
the entire block. If you decide to go ahead, then he can go out
unattended when he responds consistently to your calling him, and
knows to stay away from cars.

"Will he ever want to come in on his own?"

It's not a question of what he wants. It's a question of what you will
allow. Establish a consistent schedule of the door opening at the same
time each morning and firmly shutting at the same time each evening. No
exceptions. Have him receive his evening meal after he returns for the
night and then lock the cat door. Do not waver on this. You may get
into a power struggle with him about it, but he either comes home at
the right time (call him a few times), or no dinner and no entrance. He
may stay out all night once or twice to test you, but eventually he
will realize the rules of the manor and if he is well-treated, he will
abide by them. You're not trying to feed an outdoor cat - you are
trying to create an indoor/outdoor residential cat. Make sure that's
the behavior that you reward.

"Does this mean he is a wanderer in spirit, and won't be coming back?"

Most cats are strongly territorial in nature. You will be fighting his
perception that one in the morning is an excellent time to take a walk,
but he will come to terms with the rules if they are consistently
enforced. The risks of drunk drivers, wandering lunatics, and natural
predators are high at night, so I would certainly encourage you to do
the outside by day, inside by night, if you do choose to provide
outdoor access.

[[email protected]]

My first cat came from a farm and was outside all day, playing in the
churchyard and the fields, for 14 years, an extremely happy cat, he
died at 14 of kidney failure. The next two have been let outside all
their lives, one passed away at the age of 15 two years ago, and the
other is now 17 and still wobbles round the garden although I dont let
him out the front now because he cant run fast enough. I have never
let them out at night as that is when cats tend to roam and a lot get
run over. If you are near a busy road then dont let him out and if he
is miserable being indoors I would give him to someone who lives
somewhere safer where he can be let out. If it is safe, then I
completely agree with you to let him out. Go with him at first, then
leave him out on his own for a short time and go and find him if he
hasnt come home. It is just a matter of him getting to know his
surroundings outside. If he likes dry cat food, get him to learn the
sound of the box shaking, my cats always came back for that and a
certain whistle that I gave outside. Those two things together always
brought them back, they were never that far from home, but I have
always lived in a cul de sac, picked my houses especially to keep my
cats as safe as possible.

Chris

[[email protected]]

Forgot to mention, I am in the UK, so maybe it is different here, the
only real danger is traffic.

[CatNipped]

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>> B I T C H.
>>

See, I was right! Oh, but he forgot the "mean old" in front of it!!! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> That works for me. But the fact still remains that you should not put your
> cat outside because you are frustrated and are not willing to use the
> means
> many others have suggested to get him accustomed to staying in where he
> is safe.
>
> You are not a good guardian, and in fact you are endangering your cat
> because you are selfish and lazy. Get the goddamned ear plugs and the
> HEPA filter, and make him a place to stay at night that is far away from
> where you sleep. If you don't, you are a cat abuser. Personally I would
> rather be a bitch. Now stop rationalizing and do the right thing.
>
>
>

[Monique Y. Mudama]

On 2005-03-30, Skip Turner via CatKB.com penned:
> What world are you living in?! I'm a cat abuser because I let him outside?
> So most of my neighbors and friends and co workers are also cat abuser's in
> your small little mind?
>
> You know, I see caged dogs, and poor poor apartment cats sitting in cramped
> studios gazing longingly out the windows. Those are horrible lives.
>
> Don't ever plan on having kids Mary.
>
> I'm not looking for justification for letting a cat outside, re-read my
> first post. I was looking for advice.
>
> I think you're a cat abuser for forcing a helpless little animal to live in
> your crappy little world.

Could you please stop following-up to MY posts, then deleting everything I
said and responding to Mary without any context?

My newsreader is smart enough to use the References: header to sort messages,
so it looks like you're responding to my message, but then I have to read HALF
WAY THROUGH your post before I find out you're actually talking about Mary.

I realize that you think that this is a webboard, but it's actually a
newsgroup; your board just mirrors the contents of the newsgroup. Newsgroups
have their own rules of etiquette, and knowing them will help you get along.

Reading up on usenet etiquette might help you:

http://kb.indiana.edu/data/abcy.html

--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

[cmtowle]

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cmtowle" > wrote in message
> news:21s2e.844507$Xk.440849@pd7tw3no...
> >
> > "Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Cmtowle,
> > >
> > > Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think
> > about...
> >
> > You are most welcome. Yes, there are many variables and options and you
> will
> > find the right one, just give yourself and your cat time and above all
do
> > not be dejected about the possibility of change. It will just take time
> and
> > probably some more sleep-deprived nights...not fun, but in the long run
> > worthwhile. The important thing to do consistently is to *not* react
when
> he
> > cries at night. He will soon learn that crying will not get him any
> > attention and he will stop. When he is with you and not crying, stroke
him
> > and praise him lavishly. Spend as much time with him as you can playing
> hard
> > and tuckering him out close to bedtime.
> > >
> > > He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays,
> watches
> > > TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> > > scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At
> > night,
> > > every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
> > >
> > > Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> > > continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> > > outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries.
> >
> > The fact that things were fine before bodes well. This is new learned
> > behaviour that you have reinforced - it can be unlearned, but you have
to
> be
> > consistent. I also think that when he gets used to going out on a
harness
> > with you during the day and because he is clearly happy in his new home,
> you
> > have a very good chance of success.
> >
> > >For 10 hours straight. No
> > > break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones
AND
> > > Brian Eno music.
> >
> > Do what you can to drown out the cries - perhaps a "white noise"
> generator?
> > >
> > > He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> > > purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to
go
> > > out.
> >
> > My guess is that when he gets to go out with you, he'll be happy to come
> > back in when he gets the message that going out with you happens often.
> > >
> > > My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> > > (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> > > going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel
to
> > > sleep.
> >
> > This may actually help break the behaviour since he will realize that
when
> > you are not there, crying does nothing and when you return, you are not
> > reacting.
> > >
> > > This weekend I will try a harness.
> >
> > Remember that it might well take time for him to get used to a harness,
so
> > be patient. If you get one to try before you get the walking jacket,
make
> > sure it's an adjustable "H-type" harness with plastic "snap" closures
not
> > buckles. I do not like the "8-type" harnesses as in my experience they
> > tighten and do not adjust well. The walking jacket is an "H-type" with
> > sections of nylon fabric rather than just having straps and it is
> generally
> > sturdier. The link in my first post gives you clear photos and lots of
> tips
> > on training.
> >
> > >
> > > One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take
him
> > > outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass
and
> > > sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless
he
> > > gets under the house).
> >
> > Excellent.
> > >
> > > I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep...
> But
> > > he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let
him
> > > out alone.
> >
> > You know my take on this.
>
"Mary" > wrote in message
...

> And your take is the same as mine. All this asshole wants is for someone
> to tell him it is okay to do what he KNOWS is NOT okay to do.
>
> > "cmtowle" > wrote in message
> news:21s2e.844507$Xk.440849@pd7tw3no...

> > Good luck, be consistent and patient. And, do not let some posts get to
> you.
> > Take what works for you and leave the rest. There really is a lot of
good
> > information in this group.
> >
> >
>
"Mary" > wrote in message
...

> And boatloads of horse**** too. Congrats for being the sort of person
> who is phony enough

Mary,

This is indeed a curious interpretation of my post/s. Given that I meant
exactly what I wrote, your use of "phony" is surprising, but, then again,
each of us has interpreted Skip's relationship with his cat quite
differently.

>to attempt to manipulate this moron into doing
> the right thing. I'm truly glad someone has the patience for it. Some
people
> are simply not worth the respect it takes to just tell them the truth.

We differ yet again. Skip came here for advice on a situation that is
causing stress. I believe that he genuinely wants to provide his cat with a
good life. He deserves any helpful input that might contribute to solving
the situation in such a way that his cat is happy and safe.

M.

[Mary]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Forgot to mention, I am in the UK, so maybe it is different here, the
> only real danger is traffic.
>

Oh, is that all? That is what killed three of our indoor/outdoor cats when I
was a child.

We did not live on particularly busy streets, either, just lazy little
suburbs and
old city neighborhoods. I found our beautiful snow white, blue-eyed cat with
her stomach ripped out by a dog. It was a gorgeous spring day, I was six
years old, and she was under an azalea bush. I live in the US but I am not
sure it matters. My point is, it is not "philosophy" that makes me adamant
about cats staying indoors anywhere there are cars and other animals--it
it the experience of finding my beloved pets mauled and twitching in the
throes of death. Anyone who wants to risk that is a very different kind
of person than I am. I have had enough of it.

[Mary]

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> B I T C H.
> >>
>
> See, I was right! Oh, but he forgot the "mean old" in front of it!!! ;>
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>

Hahaha! Old Skippy is a bright boy indeed. :)

[Mary]

"cmtowle" > wrote:



(after Skippy wrote this little gem:)

> > > > I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can
sleep...
> > But he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let
> him out alone.
> > >
> > > You know my take on this.
> >
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > And your take is the same as mine. All this asshole wants is for someone
> > to tell him it is okay to do what he KNOWS is NOT okay to do.
> >
> > > "cmtowle" > wrote in message
> > news:21s2e.844507$Xk.440849@pd7tw3no...
>
> > > Good luck, be consistent and patient. And, do not let some posts get
to
> > you.
> > > Take what works for you and leave the rest. There really is a lot of
> good
> > > information in this group.
> > >
> > >
> >
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > And boatloads of horse**** too. Congrats for being the sort of person
> > who is phony enough
>
> Mary,
>
> This is indeed a curious interpretation of my post/s. Given that I meant
> exactly what I wrote, your use of "phony" is surprising, but, then again,
> each of us has interpreted Skip's relationship with his cat quite
> differently.

Phony may have been the wrong word. I admire your patience and I
understand that some people believe that persuasive manipulation
is the way to get things done. However, there is no doubt about
Skippy's desire, he states it above:

"I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep...
But he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let
him out alone."

This is not ALL he wants. He wants you or someone to make him feel
good about opening the door and letting the cat out unattended. He makes
me sick.



>
> >to attempt to manipulate this moron into doing
> > the right thing. I'm truly glad someone has the patience for it. Some
> people
> > are simply not worth the respect it takes to just tell them the truth.
>
> We differ yet again. Skip came here for advice on a situation that is
> causing stress. I believe that he genuinely wants to provide his cat with
a
> good life. He deserves any helpful input that might contribute to solving
> the situation in such a way that his cat is happy and safe.
>

He got lots of good advice that he is ignoring and instead pushing
on in hopes someone will tell him what he wants to hear. He can get
sleep by using earplugs and a hepa to create white noise, putting the
cat in the farthest-away-possible room, fixing a window seat for him,
etc. etc. etc. He has been told but he continues to whine because he
needs someone to tell him that doing what he knows is wrong is just
fine. You **** around with that if you want, I find it nauseating. He has
had lots of "helpful input." I did not comment until it was apparent that
he was going to ignore all of it so he can just open the door. One
would think that the fact that "all his friends" do it would be enough
for him, but he expects a group where there are many people who
really love cats to tell him it's fine to let him out. Horse****.

[em]

Skip:
If it is financially feasible, I would definitely go for the outdoor enclosure. I live in an apartment where my cats would become pancakes if allowed free access to the outdoors, so they are indoor cats, and don't seem to mind.

I have a friend who has a large backyard and she and her husband built a large enclosure (like a dog run) in their backyard, for their cats. They have a cat-flap door that is built into an area that was once a basement window. Because cats are such great escape artists, they had the fencing sunk into the ground.

It is a lengthy, wide enclosure, with things to climb on, hang upside down from, see the world from, you name it. The part closest to the house has a small section that is covered with vinyl roofing for shade on hot days, or to escape the rain if they want to be outside even though it is raining.

I don't know how you have managed thus far with all that crying! When my senior 'baby girl' would yell at the top of her lungs in the middle of the night, it drove me crazy! A good set of the WAX earplugs (the only type that work well for me) and an electric fan for 'white noise' next to my bed drowned out most of her racket, but amazing the decibels those critters hit. Increasing her Hyperthyroid meds cut down on the yelling, but I still remember those nights!

There are a lot more loonies out there now, than, say 20 years ago. My friend always let her pretty Siamese wander and July 19/04 (I remember as that is my nephew's BD) Baby went out for her walk at 6:30 am and never came back. I went around the entire neighbourhood with my friend's daughter, handing out posters that had pictures of Baby on them. Alaine insisted on knocking on the doors, speaking to people. We never did find her. There are a lot of sick people in this world. I still think of Baby, who was so sweet, and wonder what ever happened to her.

I don't know what you thought of the harness rigging I suggested . . . one has to be careful that the cat won't hang himself. I think the best solution for both of you, if financially feasible, is the "cat run".

BTW, the IQ comment someone made - - - I ignore nastiness like that. It may not have even been directed at you. You also have to consider that it was made by someone who appeared to be slinging some pretty rough insults at someone else. I have found that there are people who "troll" the newsgroups and make unpleasant comments just to get a rise out of others. The best thing is to ignore them.

Keep us apprised of the situation! I found my big kitty, back in '85, who WAS used to going outside, WAS a lot happier being kept indoors when I adopted another cat . . . she was just a baby, and he took her under his paternal wing immediately.
Then again, not all cats are that accepting!

Mel


--
God requires that we assist the animals, when they need our help. Each being (human or creature) has the same right of protection.
-St. Francis of Assisi-

One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats her animals.
-Mahatma Gandhi -
"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message ...
> Cmtowle,
>
> Thanks so much for all the kind words. Oh my gosh, so much to think about...
>
> He is happy, on my lap or desk all day when I'm around. He plays, watches
> TV. We play with the feather toy, catnip or the wind up mouse. Or he
> scratches his cardboard thing, or the big carpeted cat furniture. At night,
> every night, he comes to bed with me. Here he sleeps for 3 to 4 hours.
>
> Before, he would either get up, and go look out the window, or just
> continue to stay in bed. Now since I have been letting him roam around
> outside - he gets up, goes to the door and cries. For 10 hours straight. No
> break. His cries are coming through my 'noise reduction' headphones AND
> Brian Eno music.
>
> He is not miserable with me, or my place I know that. He is happy and
> purring and smiling. He is just a big bad ass alley cat. He wants to go
> out.
>
> My work is putting me up in a hotel for a few days so I can get sleep
> (really really deprived, and on set for long long hours). So i will be
> going back home to play with him for 4 hours, and then on to my hotel to
> sleep.
>
> This weekend I will try a harness.
>
> One other thing. He doesn't really run and hide from me, when I take him
> outside. He rubs up against my legs, and walks around chewing grass and
> sniffing. It's not that hard to get him and bring him back in (unless he
> gets under the house).
>
> I just need to be able to let him out when he cries, so I can sleep... But
> he would be alone. I just need to know when it would be okay to let him
> out alone. Millions of cat owners with outdoor cats must be able to answer
> this question?? When did you start letting your cat out alone?
>
> Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it!
>
> Oh yeah, I live in a great bungalow with a yard and fence and palm trees
> near the water. There is small neighborhood streets nearby, and PCH is a
> few blocks away. But all my neighbor's cats just stick around here.
>
> He's crying right now at the door again =(
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[em]

"Mary" > wrote in message ...
> The main thing here is that the OP is losing sleep. The cat is not his
> primary concern. Why he could not just stfu and open the door rather
> than bothering people who really love cats and are concerned about
> their welfare I do not know.
>

Once you get to a certain point without sleep, one cannot really think clearly. You lose your focus. I would think that Skip, considering he IS trying, is probably so sleep-deprived at this point that he isn't thinking straight. I had this issue when my Dad was first diagnosed with cancer. Try going to work on 3 hours or less when you have an extremely responsible job. That is why I requested an LOA.

I believe Skip cares for his cat and not just sleep. It's just that once you get to a certain point of sleep deprivation, it is like starvation - - - that is all your mind, in mode of survival, can really focus on. (been there - done that)

Mel
--
God requires that we assist the animals, when they need our help. Each being (human or creature) has the same right of protection.
-St. Francis of Assisi-

One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats her animals.
-Mahatma Gandhi -

[CatNipped]

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Forgot to mention, I am in the UK, so maybe it is different here, the
>> only real danger is traffic.
>>
>
> Oh, is that all? That is what killed three of our indoor/outdoor cats when
> I
> was a child.
>
> We did not live on particularly busy streets, either, just lazy little
> suburbs and
> old city neighborhoods. I found our beautiful snow white, blue-eyed cat
> with
> her stomach ripped out by a dog. It was a gorgeous spring day, I was six
> years old, and she was under an azalea bush. I live in the US but I am not
> sure it matters. My point is, it is not "philosophy" that makes me adamant
> about cats staying indoors anywhere there are cars and other animals--it
> it the experience of finding my beloved pets mauled and twitching in the
> throes of death. Anyone who wants to risk that is a very different kind
> of person than I am. I have had enough of it.

Me too. Even if you live away from a busy street, cats can roam up to 2 or
3 miles from home. I don't know anywhere that there are computers for
people to post from that there isn't also traffic within 2 or 3 miles. And
even if you live in deepest, darkest Africa where there really isn't *any*
traffic, there are *STILL* animals, both wild and domestic, who could eat
your pet alive!

I don't care where you live, the US isn't the only dangerous place for a cat
to be outside. Just recently I heard a story from someone living in the UK
about a neighbor taking a stray cat, putting it in a cold oven, and then
turning the oven on high and laughing when he heard the cat's screams of
pain until the cat died. The thought of someone doing that to one of my
babies would have me in a homicidal rage!

The fact that one or more cats happens to have lived 10 or 15 years outside
does not negate that fact that there are dangers outside that can be avoided
by keeping your cat inside.

Hugs,

CatNipped

[Mary]

"CatNipped" > wrote

> The thought of someone doing that to one of my
> babies would have me in a homicidal rage!
>
> The fact that one or more cats happens to have lived 10 or 15 years
outside
> does not negate that fact that there are dangers outside that can be
avoided
> by keeping your cat inside.
>

And with a little effort you can train them to the leash and harness,
or, as I do with Buddha, just go outside with them in the fenced
yard. But don't leave your pets at the mercy of anything that happens
to be outside.

[Karen]

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Forgot to mention, I am in the UK, so maybe it is different here, the
> >> only real danger is traffic.
> >>
> >
> > Oh, is that all? That is what killed three of our indoor/outdoor cats
when
> > I
> > was a child.
> >
> > We did not live on particularly busy streets, either, just lazy little
> > suburbs and
> > old city neighborhoods. I found our beautiful snow white, blue-eyed cat
> > with
> > her stomach ripped out by a dog. It was a gorgeous spring day, I was six
> > years old, and she was under an azalea bush. I live in the US but I am
not
> > sure it matters. My point is, it is not "philosophy" that makes me
adamant
> > about cats staying indoors anywhere there are cars and other animals--it
> > it the experience of finding my beloved pets mauled and twitching in the
> > throes of death. Anyone who wants to risk that is a very different kind
> > of person than I am. I have had enough of it.
>
> Me too. Even if you live away from a busy street, cats can roam up to 2
or
> 3 miles from home. I don't know anywhere that there are computers for
> people to post from that there isn't also traffic within 2 or 3 miles.
And
> even if you live in deepest, darkest Africa where there really isn't *any*
> traffic, there are *STILL* animals, both wild and domestic, who could eat
> your pet alive!
>
> I don't care where you live, the US isn't the only dangerous place for a
cat
> to be outside. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> The thought of someone doing that to one of my
> babies would have me in a homicidal rage!
>
> The fact that one or more cats happens to have lived 10 or 15 years
outside
> does not negate that fact that there are dangers outside that can be
avoided
> by keeping your cat inside.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
>

OK, I really, really wish I hadn't read that. :((((

[FD701]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> My first cat came from a farm and was outside all day, playing in the
> churchyard and the fields, for 14 years, an extremely happy cat, he
> died at 14 of kidney failure. The next two have been let outside all
> their lives, one passed away at the age of 15 two years ago, and the
> other is now 17 and still wobbles round the garden although I dont let
> him out the front now because he cant run fast enough. I have never
> let them out at night as that is when cats tend to roam and a lot get
> run over. If you are near a busy road then dont let him out and if he
> is miserable being indoors I would give him to someone who lives
> somewhere safer where he can be let out. If it is safe, then I
> completely agree with you to let him out. Go with him at first, then
> leave him out on his own for a short time and go and find him if he
> hasnt come home. It is just a matter of him getting to know his
> surroundings outside. If he likes dry cat food, get him to learn the
> sound of the box shaking, my cats always came back for that and a
> certain whistle that I gave outside. Those two things together always
> brought them back, they were never that far from home, but I have
> always lived in a cul de sac, picked my houses especially to keep my
> cats as safe as possible.
>
> Chris

I think that was the first sane answer I read on this thread. Maybe things
are different in the US, but I never had a cat which was prisoned indoors.
The current one was a stray which arrived at our house one day and refused
to leave. He hasnt even got a litter box inside, doubt he'd know how to use
it. He is out whenever he wants and he has always come back. And we live in
London, close to a main road. I figured, if he had made it to here and lived
out there for 5 months without getting harmed, he is obviously street smart.
He is snipped and rarely goes far. There is a park next door, where he goes
for his business and chases the odd squirrel. But at the end of the day, he
is a cat, not a dog. I dont own him. He decided to stay. No one owns a cat,
cats dont need to be walked, bathed, nail clipped and looked after 24/7. If
you want that kind of pet, get a dog. They dont need to be fenced in, and
they certainly enjoy running up and down trees and chasing mice without a
loud human next to them. I do understand that there may be a risk in letting
a pedigree cat outside, as they could get stolen. Thats why I dont have one.
There are other cats out there in our street, none have been kept in. It's
different if you live in a flat and get a young kitten which has never seen
the outside. that may just work, allthough it wouldnt be my kind of thing.
Anywhere else, I'd let the cat out. Not sure what Racoons do, but arent they
nocturnal ? Allthough my cat goes out after dark, (guess why they have
nightvision?) maybe in a racoon area it's not a good idea.
Now back to the original question. How do you keep a feral cat from running
away, instead of running around. Honestly I have no idea. I would be scared
as well, that he may decide that his old life was better, especially as he
was locked in for so long. You might just have to take the risk and hope
that your cat has adopted you (remember, you dont own him, he decides if he
wants to stay). He knows where the food is, he knows you have a nice dry
cosy bed and you are nice to him. Should be all it takes. He is street
smart, he can fight and he knows roads. But as a feral cat, he may not come
home every day. In the beginning ours didnt. Now he is more in than out,
especially if it is raining or cold (didnt bother him 2 years ago....) or
not the right kind of sunshine {roll-eyes}. If he sleeps with you, thats
pretty good. He has a chip and a collar, so he wont get lost, and dont
worry, cats do know thier way around. They dont get "lost", sometimes they
just dont want to be found.
Yes, your cat will be in danger out there. That's part of life, honestly. We
cant protect our pets and kids from danger all the time. What sense does it
make ? A cat maybe officially a domesticated animal, but at the end of the
day, they are an animal, made to roam and hunt.
Phew feel better now. I really dont mind if you keep your cat indoors, on a
leash or in a cage (cat run?), but dont call me a bad pet owner, because I
want to do it different. I cant imagine any other way. I like cats because
they are free and come back out of their own free will. I dont think indoor
cats are worse off or anything like that, but it's just not my thing.

Let us know, how it went with your cat and if you ever managed to get any
sleep
Cheers
FD
>

[CatNipped]

"Karen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mary" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > >> Forgot to mention, I am in the UK, so maybe it is different here, the
> > >> only real danger is traffic.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Oh, is that all? That is what killed three of our indoor/outdoor cats
> when
> > > I
> > > was a child.
> > >
> > > We did not live on particularly busy streets, either, just lazy little
> > > suburbs and
> > > old city neighborhoods. I found our beautiful snow white, blue-eyed
cat
> > > with
> > > her stomach ripped out by a dog. It was a gorgeous spring day, I was
six
> > > years old, and she was under an azalea bush. I live in the US but I am
> not
> > > sure it matters. My point is, it is not "philosophy" that makes me
> adamant
> > > about cats staying indoors anywhere there are cars and other
animals--it
> > > it the experience of finding my beloved pets mauled and twitching in
the
> > > throes of death. Anyone who wants to risk that is a very different
kind
> > > of person than I am. I have had enough of it.
> >
> > Me too. Even if you live away from a busy street, cats can roam up to 2
> or
> > 3 miles from home. I don't know anywhere that there are computers for
> > people to post from that there isn't also traffic within 2 or 3 miles.
> And
> > even if you live in deepest, darkest Africa where there really isn't
*any*
> > traffic, there are *STILL* animals, both wild and domestic, who could
eat
> > your pet alive!
> >
> > I don't care where you live, the US isn't the only dangerous place for a
> cat
> > to be outside. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> > The thought of someone doing that to one of my
> > babies would have me in a homicidal rage!
> >
> > The fact that one or more cats happens to have lived 10 or 15 years
> outside
> > does not negate that fact that there are dangers outside that can be
> avoided
> > by keeping your cat inside.
> >
> > Hugs,
> >
> > CatNipped
> >
> >
>
> OK, I really, really wish I hadn't read that. :((((

I'm sorry, I should have put an abuse warning before that. But really, if
it keeps one person from letting his cat go outside and having that *HAPPEN*
to the cat, then it was worth the nausea it caused me to think about it and
write it and, hopefully, worth you being upset reading it.

Hugs,

CatNipped

[Brian Link]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:03:45 -0500, "Mary" > wrote:
>
>Megan--really. This is scary. The post above has nothing to do with
>me at all. Are you okay? You are an annoying, self-important
>moron, but I don't want you to get sick. You are far too much
>fun as a punching bag.
>

Sad, sad girl. You really need to talk to someone.

BLink

[Brian Link]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:14:10 -0500, "Mary" >
wrote:

>I did a simple Google search on the phrase "an oral sulfonylurea,
>glimepiride (Amaryl)" as I thought that would be pretty damned specific.
>
>My endocrinologist and I are talking about a new trial of metformin,
>starting with an EXTREMELY low dose. There are reports that people can
>build up tolerance to the (sometimes) renal toxicicity.
>
>---------------End of Howard's Post-------------------------

Either you are worthy of pity or scorn.

Again, when have you posted useful information?

Get professional help.

BLink

[Chip via CatKB.com]

This sucks! He had a serious problem. One that I have been through
actually, and now we probably won't know how this situation turns out.
Because of dumbass Mary.

I feel for you skip, and your cat. I hope you two can figure out how to
sleep, play and live together. No one has said this, but it was GREAT of
you to rescue this cat from the shelter. Just hang in there. My cats are
indoor/outdoor, and absolutely love their lives.

Not everyone around this group is an idiot like Mary.

Salud!

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Chip via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
>
> This sucks! He had a serious problem. One that I have been through
> actually, and now we probably won't know how this situation turns out.
> Because of dumbass Mary.
>
> I feel for you skip, and your cat. I hope you two can figure out how to
> sleep, play and live together. No one has said this, but it was GREAT of
> you to rescue this cat from the shelter. Just hang in there. My cats are
> indoor/outdoor, and absolutely love their lives.
>
> Not everyone around this group is an idiot like Mary.
>
> Salud!
>

Thanks for sharing, Chippy. I'm sure we'll hear back from
skippy just as soon as he finds out whether his cat will
ever come home alive again. I have no doubt he just
opened the door so that he could get some sleep.

[Mary]

"Brian Link" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:03:45 -0500, "Mary" > wrote:
> >
> >Megan--really. This is scary. The post above has nothing to do with
> >me at all. Are you okay? You are an annoying, self-important
> >moron, but I don't want you to get sick. You are far too much
> >fun as a punching bag.
> >
>
> Sad, sad girl. You really need to talk to someone.
>
> BLink

Now that was pretty good. It's nice to see what you are
capable of now that you are getting your beauty rest.

[Mary]

"Brian Link" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:14:10 -0500, "Mary" >
> wrote:
>
> >I did a simple Google search on the phrase "an oral sulfonylurea,
> >glimepiride (Amaryl)" as I thought that would be pretty damned specific.
> >
> >My endocrinologist and I are talking about a new trial of metformin,
> >starting with an EXTREMELY low dose. There are reports that people can
> >build up tolerance to the (sometimes) renal toxicicity.
> >
> >---------------End of Howard's Post-------------------------
>
> Either you are worthy of pity or scorn.
>
> Again, when have you posted useful information?
>
> Get professional help.
>
> BLink

By Dog but you are witty. And wise too. Thanks so much
for sharing. I keep poor Henry in my thoughts.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Well, Mary's wrong again. At least some things in life you can count on.
No, I didn't just open my door and let him outside. I've kept him inside
until today. And today he layed around the grass, and chewed on flowers and
sniffed for hours, while I followed him around. Pet somebody's advice
(sorry, I can't remember who it was, and only a few posts are showing up...)
, I brought him back inside every time he wandered too far, or tried to get
under the house. Once inside, I gave him a treat (maybe a bad idea), then
waited a half hour before bringing him out again.

Not once did he run from me. It was, actually, great. Now let's just wait
and see how bad he cries tonight. And I bought ear plugs by the way, so I'm
back at home, and out of the hotel. I hated being away from him anyway. I
totally look forward to seeing him at the end of the day, and I know it'll
suck if he's not around.

BUT I completely agree, and thank FD107 for his post.

I've been thinking about this lately, and historically, how the Egyptians
even worshipped Cats... They wouldn't lock them up and shut them out of
rooms and teach them lessons etc. That's how you train a dog, and cats
aren't dogs. Apples and Oranges.

The Egyptions saw Cats as the "Kings of the household...". And my buddy in
Washington who has 4 outdoor cats that come and go as they please act like
kings. They lay around happily wherever they want, they eat and get fat,
and sleep on his bed when they want, and go play outside when they want.
Their attitude is completely different to that of an indoor cat. Indoor
cats don't act very kingly. They act more like prisoners (generalization I
know, but most of them) or escape artists.

I would love my cat to be the king of the household, and more and more
lately he is starting to feel like he is. He sleeps with me when he wants,
goes outside in little tidbits, sleeps on the desk, on the window eats
whenever he wants etc. And pretty soon he'll come and go as he pleases...

I believe this is where a cat functions best, and is at their complete
peak. Simply, when they can do whatever they want. And that's where I just
like to play observer and appreciate the fact that he's alive, and that he
is choosing to be with me right now.

Read stories about cats, watch them in movies. This is what people love
most about them. Not just me.

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Well, Mary's wrong again. At least some things in life you can count on.
> No, I didn't just open my door and let him outside. I've kept him inside
> until today. And today he layed around the grass, and chewed on flowers
and
> sniffed for hours, while I followed him around. Pet somebody's advice
> (sorry, I can't remember who it was, and only a few posts are showing
up...)
> , I brought him back inside every time he wandered too far, or tried to
get
> under the house. Once inside, I gave him a treat (maybe a bad idea), then
> waited a half hour before bringing him out again.
>
> Not once did he run from me. It was, actually, great. Now let's just wait
> and see how bad he cries tonight.

Well, that's using your head. You nearly had him accustomed to being
an inside cat, and now you've blown it again and begun the entire
cycle over again. But then you don't want him to be an inside cat.
Your goal is still to let him out unsupervised--therefore your goal
is still to put him in danger. He's your cat. I you do allow him to roam
unsupervised, when he comes to harm the loss will be yours--as will
be the responsibility. Bonehead.

[Skip Turner via CatKB.com]

Wow, you're a delightful person. I don't want him to be accustomed to being
an inside cat. Have you not been reading this thread?

And didn't you mean to say "If" he comes to harm, not "when"? Why all of
the sudden would my cat be jinxed?

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Wow, you're a delightful person. I don't want him to be accustomed to
being
> an inside cat. Have you not been reading this thread?
>
> And didn't you mean to say "If" he comes to harm, not "when"? Why all of
> the sudden would my cat be jinxed?
>
> --

Skip, you are a moron, and we have enough of those around here.
My dance card is full. So **** off.

[Mary]

"Skip Turner via CatKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Wow, you're a delightful person. I don't want him to be accustomed to
being
> an inside cat. Have you not been reading this thread?
>

I take it back. I have compassion for the obviously handicapped, so let me
explain--AGAIN. You want to open the door and let the cat roam unsupervised,
and your shorts get in a knot when anyone suggests this is not safe.
Therefore,
you are stupid. In addition, chances are you will find your cat splattered
or
gutted one day, by a car or creature. Facts, bucky boy. Simple facts.
You can do what you want but don't expect responsible cat people
to stroke your dick and tell you it is okay. It is NOT okay. Your
friends with the indoor outdoor cats are just as stupid as you. But
it's fine--when one of the King of the House cats gets poisoned,
hit by a car, or ripped a new one by a dog, you and your buds can
get another. They're a dime a dozen. So have fun, dickhead.

[Brian Link]

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:37:10 -0500, "Mary" > wrote:

>
>"Brian Link" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:14:10 -0500, "Mary" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I did a simple Google search on the phrase "an oral sulfonylurea,
>> >glimepiride (Amaryl)" as I thought that would be pretty damned specific.
>> >
>> >My endocrinologist and I are talking about a new trial of metformin,
>> >starting with an EXTREMELY low dose. There are reports that people can
>> >build up tolerance to the (sometimes) renal toxicicity.
>> >
>> >---------------End of Howard's Post-------------------------
>>
>> Either you are worthy of pity or scorn.
>>
>> Again, when have you posted useful information?
>>
>> Get professional help.
>>
>> BLink
>
>By Dog but you are witty. And wise too. Thanks so much
>for sharing. I keep poor Henry in my thoughts.
>

Still waiting for the answer to my question.. ?

BLink