Blah.. Ringworm question again

[KellyH]

Our shelter has had some kittens out in foster since December for ringworm.
They have been on griseofulvin, I'm not certain if it was stopped or not.
The kittens no longer show symptoms of RW, you wouldn't even suspect it to
look at them. However, their last two cultures have come back positive. I
know some shelters don't even re-culture, just declare them cured when there
are no symptoms. What does it mean if the culture is positive, but there
are no signs of RW? We are getting concerned about them being on the med
too long. I did ask our vet about Program, but she said it is not
effective.

--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

[-L.]

KellyH wrote:
> Our shelter has had some kittens out in foster since December for
ringworm.
> They have been on griseofulvin, I'm not certain if it was stopped or
not.
> The kittens no longer show symptoms of RW, you wouldn't even suspect
it to
> look at them. However, their last two cultures have come back
positive. I
> know some shelters don't even re-culture, just declare them cured
when there
> are no symptoms. What does it mean if the culture is positive, but
there
> are no signs of RW? We are getting concerned about them being on the
med
> too long. I did ask our vet about Program, but she said it is not
> effective.

Well, she's wrong. I have had Peewee on Program two separate times for
ringworm (it's very common here in the PNW). You have to mega-does
them 2 or 3 times 2-4 weeks apart, and then put them on the regular cat
dosage for at least 6 months. It works. We also used it at the vet.
It can't hurt to try, right? Especially if the cats are still
positive.

If the skin culture is positive they still have the epiphyte. Some
cats become chronic ringworm carriers - it breaks out in times of
stress or ill health. There is some argument as to whether or not
"chronic carriers" exist, but IME, they do exist. When you have a cat
that simply cannot be cured, you have to assume the condition is
chronic. In at least one case I know of, a set of Persians (different
owners, same breeder) that were extremely resistant to any traditional
treatment, Program knocked out the ringworm.

IMO, why not try Program and see what happens...? Within a week or so
of treatment, Peewee's skin started to look better. It may just be
that it works for some cats but not all, for some reason.

-L.

[KellyH]

"-L." > wrote
> If the skin culture is positive they still have the epiphyte. Some
> cats become chronic ringworm carriers - it breaks out in times of
> stress or ill health. There is some argument as to whether or not
> "chronic carriers" exist, but IME, they do exist. When you have a cat
> that simply cannot be cured, you have to assume the condition is
> chronic. In at least one case I know of, a set of Persians (different
> owners, same breeder) that were extremely resistant to any traditional
> treatment, Program knocked out the ringworm.
>

If the kittens are chronic carriers, does that mean they can spread it to
other cats, dogs, humans?

> IMO, why not try Program and see what happens...? Within a week or so
> of treatment, Peewee's skin started to look better. It may just be
> that it works for some cats but not all, for some reason.
>

I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses Program,
works every time. Didn't make an impression.
If it were up to me, I would have tried it.
--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

[Phil P.]

"KellyH" > wrote in message
...
> Our shelter has had some kittens out in foster since December for
ringworm.
> They have been on griseofulvin, I'm not certain if it was stopped or not.
> The kittens no longer show symptoms of RW, you wouldn't even suspect it to
> look at them. However, their last two cultures have come back positive.
I
> know some shelters don't even re-culture, just declare them cured when
there
> are no symptoms. What does it mean if the culture is positive, but there
> are no signs of RW?


You can get false-positive cultures in cats that are clinically recovered,
and cured of RW if they're living in a contaminated environment. Remember,
RW spores can remain infectious in the environment for up to 18 months -
thus cats can pick up RW in the vet's office as well as become reinfected
from her environment. Many times persistent infections are actually
*reinfections*. RW is a real nightmare - even in a *single* cat
environment.

I usually continue treatment until the cats are culture-negative (I use the
tooth*brush technique) three times in a row at weekly intervals. This is
the only treatment plan that I've found to be successful. Its a PITA, but
its absolutely necessary - RW can wreak havoc in a shelter - not to mention
law suits if you adopt out a carrier or an infected cat and the adoptive
and/or resident cats/dogs become infected.

Good luck.

Phil

[Phil P.]

"KellyH" > wrote in message
>
> I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
> volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses Program,
> works every time. Didn't make an impression.
> If it were up to me, I would have tried it.

Program does work - but usually not by itself - and you need to dose the cat
at 80-100 mg/kg and it must be given with food to enhance absorption - the
more fat the better. I administer Program the same way I give
itraconazole - in a restaurant-size tub of butter cut into equal slices.

Phil

[-L.]

KellyH wrote:
> "-L." > wrote
> > If the skin culture is positive they still have the epiphyte. Some
> > cats become chronic ringworm carriers - it breaks out in times of
> > stress or ill health. There is some argument as to whether or not
> > "chronic carriers" exist, but IME, they do exist. When you have a
cat
> > that simply cannot be cured, you have to assume the condition is
> > chronic. In at least one case I know of, a set of Persians
(different
> > owners, same breeder) that were extremely resistant to any
traditional
> > treatment, Program knocked out the ringworm.
> >
>
> If the kittens are chronic carriers, does that mean they can spread
it to
> other cats, dogs, humans?

Yes.


>
> > IMO, why not try Program and see what happens...? Within a week or
so
> > of treatment, Peewee's skin started to look better. It may just be
> > that it works for some cats but not all, for some reason.
> >
>
> I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
> volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses
Program,
> works every time. Didn't make an impression.
> If it were up to me, I would have tried it.
> --
> -Kelly
> kelly at farringtons dot net
> "Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

I hate being in those kind of situations - feeling like you have your
hands tied. :p

Let us know what happens - I hope they get rid of it soon.

-L.

[Debra Berry]

I foster for the SPCA of Northern VA and we periodically get kittens
who have ringworm. We use Program and topical treatment if
there are only a few spots, and use Sporanox if there are a lot of
areas. Even when the kitten is ringworm lesion free, the ringworm =

spores get into the environment (rugs, sofas, etc) and can be
carried in the kitten's fur. =


We always have the kitten bathed at the vet with an antifungal shampoo =

and then have it go straight to its new home, if it will go to a home
with other cats or children. This policy has worked well. We had
an earlier issue where two kittens were adopted who had had ringworm
and the little boy in the house ended up with ringworm a few weeks
after the adoption.

Debbie



"Phil P." wrote:
> =

> "KellyH" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Our shelter has had some kittens out in foster since December for
> ringworm.
> > They have been on griseofulvin, I'm not certain if it was stopped or =
not.
> > The kittens no longer show symptoms of RW, you wouldn't even suspect =
it to
> > look at them. However, their last two cultures have come back positi=
ve.
> I
> > know some shelters don't even re-culture, just declare them cured whe=
n
> there
> > are no symptoms. What does it mean if the culture is positive, but t=
here
> > are no signs of RW?
> =

> You can get false-positive cultures in cats that are clinically recover=
ed,
> and cured of RW if they're living in a contaminated environment. Rememb=
er,
> RW spores can remain infectious in the environment for up to 18 months =
-
> thus cats can pick up RW in the vet's office as well as become reinfect=
ed
> from her environment. Many times persistent infections are actually
> *reinfections*. RW is a real nightmare - even in a *single* cat
> environment.
> =

> I usually continue treatment until the cats are culture-negative (I us=
e the
> tooth=ADbrush technique) three times in a row at weekly intervals. Thi=
s is
> the only treatment plan that I've found to be successful. Its a PITA, =
but
> its absolutely necessary - RW can wreak havoc in a shelter - not to men=
tion
> law suits if you adopt out a carrier or an infected cat and the adoptiv=
e
> and/or resident cats/dogs become infected.
> =

> Good luck.
> =

> Phil

[-L.]

Phil P. wrote:
> "KellyH" > wrote in message
> >
> > I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
> > volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses
Program,
> > works every time. Didn't make an impression.
> > If it were up to me, I would have tried it.
>
> Program does work - but usually not by itself - and you need to dose
the cat
> at 80-100 mg/kg

I dosed at 44 mg/lb so this is about the same as 100mg/kg. I gave him
two doses three weeks apart, and then just gave him the regular cat
dose every month thereafter for 6 months. He ent three years until he
broke out again, and I think *that* was because we had him in a hotel
for 10 days when we moved.

>and it must be given with food to enhance absorption - the
> more fat the better. I administer Program the same way I give
> itraconazole - in a restaurant-size tub of butter cut into equal
slices.
>
> Phil

I gave it to Peewuss in Tuna, never had any problem, but I would feed
him canned food afterward. he liked the taste of it (chewable tabs),
so it went down easy.

-L.

[KellyH]

"Phil P." > wrote
> You can get false-positive cultures in cats that are clinically recovered,
> and cured of RW if they're living in a contaminated environment. Remember,
> RW spores can remain infectious in the environment for up to 18 months -
> thus cats can pick up RW in the vet's office as well as become reinfected
> from her environment. Many times persistent infections are actually
> *reinfections*. RW is a real nightmare - even in a *single* cat
> environment.
>

The foster home is going to bleach the cages once a week from now on, as
well as dip the kittens.

> I usually continue treatment until the cats are culture-negative (I use
> the
> toothbrush technique) three times in a row at weekly intervals. This is
> the only treatment plan that I've found to be successful. Its a PITA, but
> its absolutely necessary - RW can wreak havoc in a shelter - not to
> mention
> law suits if you adopt out a carrier or an infected cat and the adoptive
> and/or resident cats/dogs become infected.
>

We've been doing the toothbrush culture as well. Our vet is letting them
grow for about three weeks, as opposed to the standard 14 days.
I'll be so happy if I never hear the word ringworm again!

--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

[Phil P.]

"KellyH" > wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote
> > You can get false-positive cultures in cats that are clinically
recovered,
> > and cured of RW if they're living in a contaminated environment.
Remember,
> > RW spores can remain infectious in the environment for up to 18 months -
> > thus cats can pick up RW in the vet's office as well as become
reinfected
> > from her environment. Many times persistent infections are actually
> > *reinfections*. RW is a real nightmare - even in a *single* cat
> > environment.
> >
>
> The foster home is going to bleach the cages once a week from now on, as
> well as dip the kittens.
>
> > I usually continue treatment until the cats are culture-negative (I use
> > the
> > toothbrush technique) three times in a row at weekly intervals. This is
> > the only treatment plan that I've found to be successful. Its a PITA,
but
> > its absolutely necessary - RW can wreak havoc in a shelter - not to
> > mention
> > law suits if you adopt out a carrier or an infected cat and the adoptive
> > and/or resident cats/dogs become infected.
> >
>
> We've been doing the toothbrush culture as well.

The only downside of the toothbrush method is that it can't distinguish
asymptomatic infected cats from cat's that have been contaminated from the
environment but aren't actually infected. This can result in a
false-positive - and the chaos that follows.


Our vet is letting them
> grow for about three weeks, as opposed to the standard 14 days.

I monitor the cultures for 3 weeks to a month - especially if the cat is
being treated.


> I'll be so happy if I never hear the word ringworm again!

Tell me about it! Ringworm can bring a shelter to a standstill for months
if you're not extremely careful - and sometimes even if you are!

Phil

[Phil P.]

"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "KellyH" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
> > > volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses
> Program,
> > > works every time. Didn't make an impression.
> > > If it were up to me, I would have tried it.
> >
> > Program does work - but usually not by itself - and you need to dose
> the cat
> > at 80-100 mg/kg
>
> I dosed at 44 mg/lb so this is about the same as 100mg/kg. I gave him
> two doses three weeks apart, and then just gave him the regular cat
> dose every month thereafter for 6 months. He ent three years until he
> broke out again, and I think *that* was because we had him in a hotel
> for 10 days when we moved.


One frustrating aspects of ringworm is that its self-limiting - so I can
never be absolutely sure which treatment really works the best.


>
> >and it must be given with food to enhance absorption - the
> > more fat the better. I administer Program the same way I give
> > itraconazole - in a restaurant-size tub of butter cut into equal
> slices.
> >
> > Phil
>
> I gave it to Peewuss in Tuna, never had any problem, but I would feed
> him canned food afterward. he liked the taste of it (chewable tabs),
> so it went down easy.


As long as you gave it to with food - that's really all that matters. More
fat simply enhances absorption.

Phil

[BarB]

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:28:10 -0400, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"KellyH" > wrote in message
>>
>> I'll ask again today, but she shot it down pretty quickly. Another
>> volunteer said she has a friend who does rescue and always uses Program,
>> works every time. Didn't make an impression.
>> If it were up to me, I would have tried it.
>
>Program does work - but usually not by itself - and you need to dose the cat
>at 80-100 mg/kg and it must be given with food to enhance absorption - the
>more fat the better. I administer Program the same way I give
>itraconazole - in a restaurant-size tub of butter cut into equal slices.
>
>Phil
>

Give me more info on that tub of butter. How much per cat? Do you
follow with regular food?

I haven't had an outbreak of ringworm since I started giving Program
at 50 mg per pound to all our foster kittens as they come in. I grind
up the 400 mg tablets and add to a small amount of a food they like
and follow with a full meal. Of course I have to be sure they are
hungry and really like the food.

BarB