Outdoor cat poisoning - report back [Archive]

Ashley

April 4th 05, 10:43 PM

OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:

Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never seen
a case. That's never. However, it is an issue in the UK, where he has also
practised, and where it is the leading cause of cat poisoning. It makes
sense that this is probably a climate issue - the UK is colder, people are
more likely to have antifreeze around and use it. The leading cause of cat
poisoning in New Zealand is paracetamol, given by ignorant owners. He has
referred me to the Vet Poisoning Information Service, a British
organisation, for more info, which I shall look up when I have more time.
But he also said poisoning is not the issue with cats that it is for dogs
simply because cats don't eat everything they encounter, and that if I check
out the VPIS, I will see that cat poisoning hardly rates.

Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to
this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started having
a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would have
to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of the
newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels, but
New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.

He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 12:28 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
> OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:
>
> Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
seen
> a case. That's never. However, it is an issue in the UK, where he has also
> practised, and where it is the leading cause of cat poisoning. It makes
> sense that this is probably a climate issue - the UK is colder, people are
> more likely to have antifreeze around and use it. The leading cause of cat
> poisoning in New Zealand is paracetamol, given by ignorant owners. He has
> referred me to the Vet Poisoning Information Service, a British
> organisation, for more info, which I shall look up when I have more time.
> But he also said poisoning is not the issue with cats that it is for dogs
> simply because cats don't eat everything they encounter, and that if I
check
> out the VPIS, I will see that cat poisoning hardly rates.
>
> Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to
> this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
having
> a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would have
> to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
> those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of the
> newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels,
but
> New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.
>
> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue
has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of you
go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls and
chains off first!).

Hugs,

CatNipped

Ashley

April 5th 05, 12:38 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue
> has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of
> you
> go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls
> and
> chains off first!).

So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in people's
mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them.

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 12:46 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this
issue
> > has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of
> > you
> > go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls
> > and
> > chains off first!).
>
> So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in people's
> mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them.

I see you snipped out the section of your post I was responding to. Here
I'll add it back so you can read it again (not that I think that will
help!)...

Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the
American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.
"

Care to interpret that differently than the way it did???

Hugs,

CatNipped

Ashley

April 5th 05, 01:20 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the
> American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all
> times.
> "
>
> Care to interpret that differently than the way it did???

He's not impressed. That doesn't mean he's telling you what to do - which
appears to be a concept a few posters here have difficulty with. He would do
it differently, that doesn't mean you have to.

If you're genuinely interested in reading a dispassionate debate of the pros
and cons of both indoors and outdoors, you might try reading this, which I
found while searching for the VPIS (which it appears you can't get the data
from unless you're a vet):

http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 01:32 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> > Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the
> > American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all
> > times.
> > "
> >
> > Care to interpret that differently than the way it did???
>
> He's not impressed. That doesn't mean he's telling you what to do - which
> appears to be a concept a few posters here have difficulty with. He would
do
> it differently, that doesn't mean you have to.
>
> If you're genuinely interested in reading a dispassionate debate of the
pros
> and cons of both indoors and outdoors, you might try reading this, which I
> found while searching for the VPIS (which it appears you can't get the
data
> from unless you're a vet):
>
> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html

Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have
two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them in
or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational skills.

You can do what you like, obviously, but don't try to convince anyone with
either of those assets that letting cats outside is a good idea.
Anthropomorphize as much as you like about how cats, like humans, "need to
be free to roam". Cats are *NOT* human, can be perfectly happy inside 24/7
and certainly can *only* be safe from outside dangers if they *are* kept
inside 24/7.

Come back here, like *SO* many others have who let their cats roam outside,
and post to the group about how upset you are that you've found your
"beloved" kitty lying on the side of the road dead with his intestines
hanging out! We'll all cry with you until you get another cat to weep over.
I'm sure as your cat lays dying he'll be thinking how "lucky" he is that
you're so concerned about his freedom.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 01:44 AM

Here, counter these facts:

Indoor cats...

have a life span of 12 - 20 years
are not exposed to disease
will not get abscesses from fighting neighborhood strays
will not be threatened by dogs or wildlife
will not suffer injury or amputation from leghold traps
will not suffer from frost bite
will not be hit by cars
will not get lost
will never go hungry
cannot be abused by strangers
are safe from chemicals and fertilizers
cannot be stolen
are happy living indoors

Outdoor cats...

have a life span of only 1 - 5 years
will be exposed to leukemia, kitty AIDS, parasites, etc.
will fight - causing expensive vet bills
are maimed or killed by dogs and predators can get caught in leghold traps
do suffer from frost bite
are hit by cars and injured or killed
do stray from home and get lost
can die from starvation
are abused by strangers
are exposed to toxic lawn antifreeze
are stolen
breed, if not neutered or spayed, and add to pet overpopulation

Disagree? Which of those things above are wrong? OK, I already know, where
you live you have none of those dangers right? I think Mary has the right
of it - fingers in your ears chanting lalalalalalalalala!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Ashley

April 5th 05, 01:53 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I have
> two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them
> in
> or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational skills.
>

You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do
not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside your
borders is different.

I have no objection to you managing your cats and keeping them safe in the
way that you think is best for your environment. I can understand that in
some of the environments described, it would be best to keep cats inside.
What I *do* object to is people who, based on their experiences of their
environments, then extrapolate to the fanatical, immovable belief that all
cats in all environments should be kept indoors. That is plain ignorance.

What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the world
is not all as you see it from your window.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:05 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> Here, counter these facts:
>
> Indoor cats...
>
> have a life span of 12 - 20 years

As do outdoor cared-for pets in safe environments

> are not exposed to disease

but are exposed to an increased risk of diabetes and obesity, not to mention
anxiety disorders

> will not get abscesses from fighting neighborhood strays

yup, agree

> will not be threatened by dogs or wildlife

yup agree

> will not suffer injury or amputation from leghold traps

yup agree, but then neither will urban cats in New Zealand.

> will not suffer from frost bite

yup agree

> will not be hit by cars

yup agree

> will not get lost

unless they accidentally get out - then it's more likely

> will never go hungry

if they have an owner who ensures that

> cannot be abused by strangers

it is less likely, but there is no guarantee that people inside the home
will not abuse them

> are safe from chemicals and fertilizers

you don't keep disinfectant and deterents in your house?

> cannot be stolen

it is less likely, but not impossible

> are happy living indoors

some are, some aren't

They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and have
their claws lopped off.

> Outdoor cats...
>
> have a life span of only 1 - 5 years

Nope. Compare like with like - pets with pets. No ferals. And even then,
unless you can produce worldwide figures, your figures relate only to the
States. If that is their lifespan, how come my two are both 10, and the vet
who saw one of them a couple of weeks ago spoke of him having "at least
another 6-10 years"? How come I was having a conversation yesterday with a
colleague about her 18yo cat? You've been brainwashed.

> will be exposed to leukemia, kitty AIDS, parasites, etc.

yup. Parsites are easily treatable, most other diseases can be vaccinated
against.

> will fight - causing expensive vet bills

Antibiotics ain't expensive

> are maimed or killed by dogs and predators can get caught in leghold traps

depends on where you are. I know of one cat that has been killed or maimed
by a dog. And that was before laws changed to make it illegal to let dogs
roam. Any roaming dog now runs a very high risk of spending the rest of its
life at the pound. We don't have leghold traps in the suburbs, only in the
wilderness areas where, whether anyone likes it or not, cats *will* be
killed for the sake of the environment anyway.

> do suffer from frost bite

not here they don't. And not anywhere where they've got free access to a cat
door. Or a warm barn.

> are hit by cars and injured or killed

yup. A risk that can be minimised by choosing your house carefully,
neutering your pets and keeping them indoors at night.

> do stray from home and get lost

see above

> can die from starvation

if they're ferals, yup. If they're pets, no.

> are abused by strangers

very occasionally

> are exposed to toxic lawn antifreeze

not here, they're not

> are stolen

very rarely - more of a risk with expensive pedigrees than with moggies

> breed, if not neutered or spayed, and add to pet overpopulation

but as pets *are* neutered and spayed, this isn't part of the issue, is it?
That's actually a straw man

> Disagree? Which of those things above are wrong? OK, I already know,
> where
> you live you have none of those dangers right? I think Mary has the right
> of it - fingers in your ears chanting lalalalalalalalala!

I appear to be the one with my eye open, here.

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 02:11 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...

> They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and
have
> their claws lopped off.

OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll.
Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group??

Hugs,

CatNipped

Meghan Noecker

April 5th 05, 02:21 AM

>"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>> OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:

>>
>> Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to
>> this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
>having
>> a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would have
>> to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
>> those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of the
>> newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels,
>but
>> New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.
>>

I'm replying to this one since i missed the original post.

This is interesting to hear. Is it possible to get more information on
the rat poison? Here, it is very common for poisoned animals to then
poison animals further up the food chain. The poison adds up and
kills. I am curious to know if we use a stronger poison than
neceesary, or something completely different. It seems odd that a
something that will kill a hardy rat would not hurt a cat. 5 adult
rats here would easily weigh as much as my smaller cats. I would think
one poisoned rat could easily make my cat sick.

And considering that rat poison is usually put inside some form of
bait, I would think it would be enticing to cats as well.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:21 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and
> have
>> their claws lopped off.
>
> OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll.

Because? Are you debating that treatment of cats with mood-altering drugs,
and declawing, is more common with indoor cats? The reality is: it is. Did
you read the link I provided?

> Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group??

I read many of your posts. I am not saying *you* do this to *your* cats. I
am saying it is more common among indoor cats. Which it is.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:22 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
>> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
>
> "But on the down side, indoor cats are also more likely to suffer
> psychologically and develop behavioural problems than those allowed
> outside."
>
> It'd be nice if they'd cite some sources. Any sources.
>
> "* Behavioural problems - Cats in the USA have a much higher incidence
> of anxiety-related problems such as urine marking than cats in the UK ,
> possibly because British cats are allowed out more whereas in the USA
> they are more commonly kept permanently indoors. There are many
> stress-linked psychological problems in indoor cats."
>
> Source? Just one? One peer-reviewed study. Please?
>
> Maybe I should put up a cat page with unreferenced assertions and be an
> authority, too. :)

Maybe you could email them and ask for references. The page is written as a
public information service, not as a scientific paper. The two tend to
follow different conventions. I have no doubt at all that if you asked for
references they would be provided.

Meghan Noecker

April 5th 05, 02:23 AM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:20:38 +1200, "Ashley"
> wrote:

>He's not impressed. That doesn't mean he's telling you what to do - which
>appears to be a concept a few posters here have difficulty with. He would do
>it differently, that doesn't mean you have to.
>

Has he lived here? Most of my vets keep their cats inside. When I told
my vet that the new cat used to be an outdoor cat, she told me she
takes her cats out on a leash.

I'm sure that a vet seeing the same problems day in and day out would
take actions to prevent their cats from the same fate.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 5th 05, 02:25 AM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:53:31 +1200, "Ashley"
> wrote:

>
>You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do
>not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside your
>borders is different.
>

Is New Zealand a bubble?

Honestly, there are areas in the US that are just as remote as where
you live, and I wouldn't let my cat outside there either.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 02:33 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I
have
> > two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping them
> > in
> > or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational
skills.
> >
>
> You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do
> not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside
your
> borders is different.
>
> I have no objection to you managing your cats and keeping them safe in the
> way that you think is best for your environment. I can understand that in
> some of the environments described, it would be best to keep cats inside.
> What I *do* object to is people who, based on their experiences of their
> environments, then extrapolate to the fanatical, immovable belief that all
> cats in all environments should be kept indoors. That is plain ignorance.
>
> What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the
world
> is not all as you see it from your window.

Now you're backtracking? You said in other posts that there *are* risks in
NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of you).

Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat
torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell
me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that
and I'll know you're lying.

*YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my
cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I* let
something happen to my cats because *I* was too lazy to interact with them,
play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their
litterboxes twice a cay!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:54 AM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...

> I'm replying to this one since i missed the original post.
>
> This is interesting to hear. Is it possible to get more information on
> the rat poison?

I'll try to remember to ask the vet when Tahi and I are back next week for
the 4th and (hopefully) final injection.

Here, it is very common for poisoned animals to then
> poison animals further up the food chain. The poison adds up and
> kills. I am curious to know if we use a stronger poison than
> neceesary, or something completely different. It seems odd that a
> something that will kill a hardy rat would not hurt a cat. 5 adult
> rats here would easily weigh as much as my smaller cats.

But the rats would have metabolised much of the poison before they died. I
suspect if you gave a cat the amount of poison that the rats ate, without
the rats as the inbetween stage, your cat would have significant problems.

I would think
> one poisoned rat could easily make my cat sick.
>
> And considering that rat poison is usually put inside some form of
> bait, I would think it would be enticing to cats as well.

Mostly, here, non-meat baits are used in any kind of rodent control - fruit,
peanut butter, that kind of thing. One of the major reasons being that
people want to catch rats, not cats or dogs.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:56 AM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:20:38 +1200, "Ashley"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>He's not impressed. That doesn't mean he's telling you what to do - which
>>appears to be a concept a few posters here have difficulty with. He would
>>do
>>it differently, that doesn't mean you have to.
>>
>
> Has he lived here? Most of my vets keep their cats inside. When I told
> my vet that the new cat used to be an outdoor cat, she told me she
> takes her cats out on a leash.
>
> I'm sure that a vet seeing the same problems day in and day out would
> take actions to prevent their cats from the same fate.

As far as I can ascertain, he's only lived in South Africa (where he's from)
Britain and here. Yes, very possibly if he lived there, he would feel
differently. Which would just go to show that real experience of the actual
dangers in different environments leads to different opinions.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 02:57 AM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:53:31 +1200, "Ashley"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do
>>not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside
>>your
>>borders is different.
>>
>
> Is New Zealand a bubble?
>

Ecologically? Yes. Read the links I posted.

> Honestly, there are areas in the US that are just as remote as where
> you live, and I wouldn't let my cat outside there either.

And they have US ecology.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 03:01 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> Now you're backtracking?

Nope.

You said in other posts that there *are* risks in
> NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of
> you).

Because those risks are minimal.

> Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat
> torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell
> me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that
> and I'll know you're lying.
>

Why would I tell you that? That would make a lie of everything I've posted.
What I *will* tell you is that the dangers to cats in New Zealand are
smaller by several degrees of magnitude than the risks you and other posters
have described here: there are no wildlife dangers to cats in New Zealand;
anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on
their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between; the risk
of being hit by a car can be drastically cut by keeping your cat inside at
night. This is all true and can be verified by any independent source you
wish to consult.

> *YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my
> cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I*
> let
> something happen to my cats because *I* was too lazy to interact with
> them,
> play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their
> litterboxes twice a cay!

And you prove exactly my point. You are extraordinarily risk averse. You
impose that risk aversion on your cats. I choose not to live in fear.

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 03:14 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...

> And you prove exactly my point. You are extraordinarily risk averse. You
> impose that risk aversion on your cats. I choose not to live in fear.

Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain
ignorant, you win the right to put your cats at risk. I'll only beat my
head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to be
bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go apologize
profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable.

Hugs,

CatNipped

Mary

April 5th 05, 03:26 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
> > ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this
issue
> > has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of
you
> > go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls
and
> > chains off first!).
> >
> > Hugs,
> >
> > CatNipped
>
> I opened my door, and Hodge ran into the hall. Now if only the elevator
> door would open. And if only he could hit the 1 button. And then if the
> desk attendant would be so kind as to open the two doors downstairs.
>
> Or I could leave the window and screens open, but 12 floors might be a
> bit much for his 9 lives. :)
>

I once opened the door inadvertantly (failed to close it, more like)
and Cheeks ran right out front. She came back inside within three seconds,
I think because I shrieked and cried and called her name. :) There is a busy
street out front. The funny thing is, she has not tried this again. Now she
runs when anyone opens the door. :)

Mary

April 5th 05, 03:27 AM

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 04:01 AM

OK, this little debate has become a little too nasty. I respect both
opinions, indoor & outdoor... Both have strong reasons behind them &
basically it comes down to personal choice.

My own choice is to let the cats outdoors... Only in the daytime. They both
got gentle introductions to the outside world, short 10 min sessions with me
a few times a week, building up to a leashed walk (much of which each of
them spent inside my vest) to TED.

Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. The
population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.

Catnipped: Relax darling.... I know your indoor cats will live forever &
you can say 'I told you so' when either Chablis or Muscat turn up dead of a
car hit or a bear attack (although, Chablis has befreinded the local skunks
& that makes it an even match in my book)... But some people are just not
going to agree with you. Think back to your 'American Bashing' thread....

As I've been typing this, Chablis has just come in from her sunset stroll,
she's fine. I mean, aside from the missing paw, chewed up tail, facial
lacerations & the jug of antifreeze she's sipping on, she's fine. Have some
catnip & shake it off little girl.

Toung still firmly in cheek...

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary

April 5th 05, 04:06 AM

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 04:13 AM

<SNIP>
>
> Some of us get upset even at the thought of others endangering
> cats. I am one of them. It upsets me that you endanger your cats.
> In addition I resent your condescending tone. I may lighten up about
> lots of things but not the safety of cats. It's like telling someone who
> wants you to give them your keys when you're drunk, "Hey, haha
> why are your knickers in a knot, lighten up! Maybe I'll hit something
> or someone or maybe I won't, but I don't want to deprive myself
> of the fun so I will take that chance."
>
> Be an irresponsible asshole if you want, but do not try to dictate
> to those of us who care more than you do and take our responsibility
> toward these domesticated animals more seriously than you do.

......And it continues to be nasty. And I will continue to condecend as long
as people are calling me names like 'Irresponsible' and 'Asshole'.
Comparing letting cats outside to letting someone drive drunk is BLOODY
REDICULOUS!!!! And as a lounge/restaraunt manager, certified by the
government in responsible liquor service, I know of what I speak.

CHILL OUT!
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary

April 5th 05, 04:20 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:8nn4e.110901$KI2.95237@clgrps12...
> <SNIP>
> >
> > Some of us get upset even at the thought of others endangering
> > cats. I am one of them. It upsets me that you endanger your cats.
> > In addition I resent your condescending tone. I may lighten up about
> > lots of things but not the safety of cats. It's like telling someone who
> > wants you to give them your keys when you're drunk, "Hey, haha
> > why are your knickers in a knot, lighten up! Maybe I'll hit something
> > or someone or maybe I won't, but I don't want to deprive myself
> > of the fun so I will take that chance."
> >
> > Be an irresponsible asshole if you want, but do not try to dictate
> > to those of us who care more than you do and take our responsibility
> > toward these domesticated animals more seriously than you do.
>
> .....And it continues to be nasty. And I will continue to condecend as
long
> as people are calling me names like 'Irresponsible' and 'Asshole'.
> Comparing letting cats outside to letting someone drive drunk is BLOODY
> REDICULOUS!!!!

In what way? In both situations you are intentionally allowing an
activity that could maim or kill.

>And as a lounge/restaraunt manager, certified by the
> government in responsible liquor service, I know of what I speak.
>
> CHILL OUT!

Oh, now that always works to get people to NOT care about things
they care about. Oh, no, that's right--it never works.

For you, cats are replaceable. Expendable. Some of us treasure
ours as family members. That is the difference. And, some of us
get upset even about others endangering these trusting creatures.
You are mistaken to think that you can or should tell others how
much to care about these matters. You're happy to take your
chances with your cats' safety. I think that's sad--for your cats,
mostly. Many of us are not, and are not happy that you are.
So---no. No chilling on this topic. And I don't want to hear
about it when your cats get hurt or go missing.

> >
> > --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
>
>

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 04:37 AM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...

<SNIP>
> > .....And it continues to be nasty. And I will continue to condecend as
> long
> > as people are calling me names like 'Irresponsible' and 'Asshole'.
> > Comparing letting cats outside to letting someone drive drunk is BLOODY
> > REDICULOUS!!!!
>
> In what way? In both situations you are intentionally allowing an
> activity that could maim or kill.

..... As I do whenever I step out the door, or go on a ski run or allow
anyone I know to do anything other than stay housebound...OOPS!!! But the
house might burn down so they should'nt do that either.

<SNIP>

> For you, cats are replaceable. Expendable. Some of us treasure
> ours as family members. That is the difference. And, some of us
> get upset even about others endangering these trusting creatures.
> You are mistaken to think that you can or should tell others how
> much to care about these matters. You're happy to take your
> chances with your cats' safety. I think that's sad--for your cats,
> mostly. Many of us are not, and are not happy that you are.
> So---no. No chilling on this topic. And I don't want to hear
> about it when your cats get hurt or go missing.

My cat's are replaceable? You don't know anything about me, and your
judging of me is an even larger incentive to be condecending. You don't
have to hear about when my cats get hurt, just killfile me...

If your still reading... I'm continually amazed at how many folks think
letting a meat eating predator (ie. cats) outside is a HORRIBLE thing. The
VENOM released by militant indoor cat owners is even more shocking. I
respect your choice to keep your cats confined in an artificial enviornment,
I choose different. I would suggest that your anger, venom & fear has
little to do with your desire to see your cats happy... and alot to do with
YOUR FEAR!!! Don't let your cats out, terrorists will get them.....

> > > --
> > Mathew
> > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> > En Vino Veritas
> >
> >
>
>

Mary

April 5th 05, 04:45 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:AJn4e.237$vt1.102@edtnps90...
>
>
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
> > > .....And it continues to be nasty. And I will continue to condecend
as
> > long
> > > as people are calling me names like 'Irresponsible' and 'Asshole'.
> > > Comparing letting cats outside to letting someone drive drunk is
BLOODY
> > > REDICULOUS!!!!
> >
> > In what way? In both situations you are intentionally allowing an
> > activity that could maim or kill.
>
> .... As I do whenever I step out the door, or go on a ski run or allow
> anyone I know to do anything other than stay housebound...OOPS!!! But the
> house might burn down so they should'nt do that either.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > For you, cats are replaceable. Expendable. Some of us treasure
> > ours as family members. That is the difference. And, some of us
> > get upset even about others endangering these trusting creatures.
> > You are mistaken to think that you can or should tell others how
> > much to care about these matters. You're happy to take your
> > chances with your cats' safety. I think that's sad--for your cats,
> > mostly. Many of us are not, and are not happy that you are.
> > So---no. No chilling on this topic. And I don't want to hear
> > about it when your cats get hurt or go missing.
>
> My cat's are replaceable? You don't know anything about me, and your
> judging of me is an even larger incentive to be condecending. You don't
> have to hear about when my cats get hurt, just killfile me...
>
> If your still reading... I'm continually amazed at how many folks think
> letting a meat eating predator (ie. cats) outside is a HORRIBLE thing.

Oh please. What chance has a cat got against a car? Or a dog?
Be honest.

The
> VENOM released by militant indoor cat owners is even more shocking. I
> respect your choice to keep your cats confined in an artificial
enviornment,
> I choose different. I would suggest that your anger, venom & fear has
> little to do with your desire to see your cats happy... and alot to do
with
> YOUR FEAR!!! Don't let your cats out, terrorists will get them.....
>

Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
Those of us who keep them indoors are not. It's very simple.
Having seen many animals maimed and killed by cars etc., I
and others feel strongly about this. You are wrong for endangering
the animals that trust you. If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.
For your cats' sakes, you should be reminded. The "venom" as
you put it, is on your side.

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 04:51 AM

<SNIP>

> Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
> Those of us who keep them indoors are not. It's very simple.
> Having seen many animals maimed and killed by cars etc., I
> and others feel strongly about this. You are wrong for endangering
> the animals that trust you. If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
> you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
> and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
> of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.
> For your cats' sakes, you should be reminded. The "venom" as
> you put it, is on your side.

Sure, whatever you say.... You are now on my 'militant, angry, needs to get
laid' KILLFILE LIST. Have an angry life, oh, I foregot, you allready are.
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

kitkat

April 5th 05, 05:23 AM

Ashley wrote:
>
>
> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back
about risks in NZ. Who cares what he thinks about our way of doing it.
Isn't your point that we do things differently than you guys and for
good reason on both ends? I was starting to understand your position
better and to a degree still do, but clearly, as you have even
agreed...there *is* more of a risk here in the US...therefore people
choosing to keep cats indoors at all times makes sense.

Pam

Meghan Noecker

April 5th 05, 06:33 AM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley"
> wrote:

>anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on
>their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between;

Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
the neighborhood.

Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she
had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free.
Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two
times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to
keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days.

Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands
there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 5th 05, 06:37 AM

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis" >
wrote:

>Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
>Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. The
>population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
>'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.
>

Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans
who make mistakes.

And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.

Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.

If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:42 AM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis" >
> wrote:
>
>
> >Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
> >Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'.
The
> >population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be
considered
> >'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.
> >
>
> Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans
> who make mistakes.
>
> And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
> town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.
>
> Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.
>
>
> If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
> really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
> a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
> accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.
>
>

And I am really frustrated that my concern for these animals
that really do not understand what they are up against with
regard to cars, poison, etc. must be twisted by Kagis and others.
In my opinion, people who do not take care of their cats are
cruel, vicious, and heinous. That will never change.

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 09:40 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...

> OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful.

What type of vet is he, a backwoods, large animal farm vet!? LOL!

His response:
>
> Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
seen
> a case. That's never.

"Never"? Are you his only client or does he have another? How can he be so
sure he's never seen a case... if he's never seen a case!? Has he ever seen
a case of acute renal failure? If so, how did he know with absolute
certainty that the ARF wasn't caused by EG toxicity, huh?

Even modern, mainstream vets cannot make a definite diagnosis without a
complete diagnostic work up and specialized EGT tests. (That's if he's even
heard of a EGT test kit) Even *with* a highly specialized EGT test kit, EG
usually can't be detected in the serum or urine after 72 hr. Thus his
"never" has little, if any credibility and should be taken with a large
grain of salt.

> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

Oh, keeping cats indoors isn't just an "American method"...

Peter Neville, *British* world renowned feline behaviorist:

"The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors.
Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and playfulness,
and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group
hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts the
benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its
self-determining and independent behaviour.

Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House,
Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK (Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline Medicine,
Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England)
BSAVA; and Manual of Feline Behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary
Association, Kingsley House. Church Lane. Shurdington, Cheltenham.
Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, *British*, and the Director of the Behavior Clinic at
Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known
specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, states

"Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors. The average lifespan of an indoor
cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to
reach double digits. I personally have lost three cats prematurely to
trauma over the past fifteen years. Two were struck by vehicles on a fairly
quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog. Because
of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and hard
about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where
they're safest" (Excerpted from the Cat Who Cried for Help).

"The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous
plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling
reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to keep
declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves or
escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer and
healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets. They don't
endanger birds and other wildlife or bring home fleas or dead animals, nor
do they need frequent visits to the veterinarian to treat injuries sustained
in scraps with rival cats.

Screened-in porches or specially constructed window enclosures allow
indoor-only cats to sniff the fresh air, peruse the goings-on outside, and
bask in the sun. By regularly changing the indoor environment, you can help
keep your cat challenged-; strategically situated empty cardboard boxes or
plain brown shopping bags (minus the handles) can provide an old space with
new interest." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center:

"Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would
have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying
relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live
longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars, being
injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus and
feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and
possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors'
properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly there
are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors."

Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Animal Behaviour Clinic,
Malvern Vie 3 144, *Australia*. Excerpted from Cat Behavior and Training.

"Many cats born as strays and adopted as housecats adjust remarkably
quickly. Indeed, many stray cats that are adopted remain indoors permanently
without protest. Cats that live in temperate climates may naturally restrict
their outdoor activity during cold winter months. These individuals may
adapt more readily to being kept indoors permanently.

Provide a wide variety of toys that are attractive to your cat (not just to
you). Frequently play with your young cat so that it is less prone to seek
amusement elsewhere. It is particularly important to provide your cat with
additional outlets by playing with it and engaging in interactive diversions
you both will enjoy. Have your cat neutered at an appropriate age as
recommended by your veterinarian.

Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental
stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The risk of
injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with
other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to your
cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor existence.
Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe
home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc,DACVB, Diplomate, American College
of Veterinary Behaviorists Director of Behavior Services, VCA South Shore
Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA Clin. Asst. Prof., Tufts University School
of Veterinary Medicine.

Your vet is behind the times - but not by much - only about 40 or 50 years.

Here's some addition reading if you want to learn something -- which I
doubt:

http://www.maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm

http://www.maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 10:44 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:Dcn4e.110900$KI2.70697@clgrps12...

>
> Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
> Islands...

Kinda like the "Never Never Land" where you never have to grow up, eh? Are
all the roads are made of yellow bricks, too? Maybe that's why cats don't
hit by cars - they're very easy to see against the yellow brick background!
LOL!

>Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'.

That certainly sounds like an accurate statement! Ashley was imported and
she's also a large mammal and she's certainly noxious.

The
> population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
> 'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.

.....yeah, back in the '50s.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:03 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain
> ignorant,

Everyone has that right. I choose not to be. Have you bothered reading any
of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other threads?
If not, I can only assume that ignorance is your choice.

you win the right to put your cats at risk.

No. I choose proportionate reactions to risk, not disproportionate
risk-aversion. Were my cats at risk from roaming coyotes, poisonous snakes
and widespread antifreeze use, I would react appropriately to those risks.
As those risks are not present, I don't react to them. And I don't
over-react to the risks that are present. I choose ways to minimise the
danger of being involved in a car accident, but not totally remove it
because I believe that eliminates too much experience and enjoyment from
their lives. Life is a trade-off of risk and pleasure. If you try to
eliminate all the risk (which you never can do) you eliminate most of the
pleasure as well. We all draw our line in the sand somewhere. You draw yours
too far down the pleasure-elimination track for my choosing.

I'll only beat my
> head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to
> be
> bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go
> apologize
> profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable.

And again, stop twisting my words. I am sure your cats are not miserable -
if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But
again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would
not choose that life for my cats.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:06 AM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley"
> > wrote:
>
>>anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on
>>their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between;
>
> Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
> dogs,

No, but they minimise things. To stop that entirely, you'd have to ban dogs!
And, as you've been following my posts, you'll be aware that I most
definitely do not claim there is *no* danger from dogs. I am, however,
saying there is not *widespread* danger from dogs. Risk/reward tradeoff.

or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
> different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
> the neighborhood.
>
> Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she
> had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free.
> Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two
> times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to
> keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days.
>
> Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands
> there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is.

Some people are just dumb ;-)

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 11:10 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> > Now you're backtracking?
>
> Nope.
>
> You said in other posts that there *are* risks in
> > NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of
> > you).
>
> Because those risks are minimal.

Because your concern for cats' welfare is minimal, not to mention your mind!

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:12 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
>> Maybe you could email them and ask for references.
>
> I think that if they're going to make such flat, bold assertions, they
> should cite their studies without being asked. Otherwise, frankly, it's
> a Web site, which anyone can have.
>

But you'll find this on that particular website:

The Feline Advisory Bureau's commitment to the improvement of the care of
cats extends to the funding of several post-graduate posts in university
veterinary schools. By funding veterinary surgeons to specialise in the
care of cats, FAB continues to create the scientific backbone for many of
the advances in the treatment of cats.

FAB's Lecturer at Bristol University's Feline Centre at Langford is Dr Sarah
Caney. A previous FAB Resident at Bristol for two years, Sarah graduated
from Bristol University in 1993. After a short period in small animal
practice, she moved to the Royal Veterinary College in London where she
spent a year as an intern in small animal medicine and surgery. Sarah
strengthened her interest in and knowledge of cats by gaining an RCVS
certificate in small animal medicine and subsequently studying for a PhD in
feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) infection.

When Andrea Harvey became a FAB Resident in January 2002 it was like coming
home. She graduated from the University of Bristol in 2000 and returned to
its Langford Feline Centre as the FAB resident.
Following graduation, Andrea worked as a small animal locum in Wiltshire
before taking up a post in a predominantly small animal practice in
Sheffield. Her specific interest in cats developed over this time.

Michiel Kraijer graduated from the University of Utrecht (Netherlands) in
2000. He worked for a year in small animal practice in the Netherlands,
before becoming FAB Resident at the Feline Clinic of the Royal (Dick) School
of Veterinary Studies in Edinburgh. His interest in feline medicine
developed when he was a student and was stimulated while seeing practice in
three feline-only small animal hospitals in the United States.

In 1998 Michiel set up a foundation with the aim of increasing interest in
feline medicine among Dutch vets. The foundation still organises yearly
symposia about advances in feline medicine

Anyone would think vets with specialist knowledge of cats contributed to it
.... or something

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:20 AM

"kitkat" > wrote in message
om...
> Ashley wrote:
>>
>>
>> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
>> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.
>
> This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back
> about risks in NZ.

I was. But I also wanted to point out that the desire to maintain outdoor
access for cats is widespread, if not universal, among animal care
professionals here, and that while you guys have totally assimilated that
world view, most of the rest of the world hasn't!

Who cares what he thinks about our way of doing it.
> Isn't your point that we do things differently than you guys and for good
> reason on both ends?

Yeah, I think we all have good reasons for believing as we do. I suspect if
I were in the States my cats would have *less* access to the outdoors than
they do here, but they wouldn't be totally confined indoors. I understand
why people choose to do that if, say, they live in an apartment (in which
case they don't really have a choice!) or in an environment when there are
multiple risks to their cats. I would try bloody hard not to live in that
environment though.

I was starting to understand your position
> better and to a degree still do, but clearly, as you have even
> agreed...there *is* more of a risk here in the US...therefore people
> choosing to keep cats indoors at all times makes sense.

For those people. And I respect their right to make those decisions. But
there's also been posts here from people in the State who choose to allow
their cats access to the outdoors. Depending on the level of risk in the
area I was in, I would make sure I had a secure outdoor area they could have
free access to, or would allow them out during the day.

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:21 AM

"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
news:1112675199.8016a4976d13b4060ed22f2d6bc09934@t eranews...
> Ashley > wrote in

> That is a very interesting article.

Yes, it is, isn't it? Most balanced examination of the pros and cons of both
views I've ever seen.

I wouldn't be surprised though
> if people here clamp their hands over their ears and sing
> "lalalalala" rather than *every* deign to *consider* a point of view
> other than their own.

Indeed, it appears you are right.

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 12:07 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > They're also more likely to find themselves on mood-altering drugs and
> have
> > their claws lopped off.
>
> OK, now we've come full circle - you've just confirmed yourself a troll.
> Have you *read* any of my other posts in this group??

If you've noticed, since she's been posting to this group (not just this
thread), she's never really contributed much useful information, she
basically just takes swipes at others' posts and criticizes people.

Phil

Ashley

April 5th 05, 12:11 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article <1112675199.8016a4976d13b4060ed22f2d6bc09934@terane ws>,
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote:
>
>> > http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> That is a very interesting article.
>
> It was interesting, but notice not one study was cited for their
> assertions. As I said, anyone can assert anything. So, until someone
> posts a peer-reviewed study, this "article" worth the paper it's not
> printed on.
>
> And, no, that's not me covering my ears and going lalala. That's me
> bringing healthy skepticism and not believing everything I read.

Hell, you only believe what you read in scientific journals anywhere, even
disbelieving otherwise authoritative sources? Healthy scepticism, is fine,
and sometimes it makes you spot a fraud a mile off, or even poke around
further to find out the credentials of the person/organisation doing the
asserting. Which you can do on this site :-)

For example, if you clicked on the "About fab" link, you'd find this

Cats are an endless source of fascination, but back in 1958 when the Feline
Advisory Bureau (FAB) was founded by Joan Judd, little was really known
about them or their veterinary needs. FAB gathered information from a
variety of sources and funded vets to specialise in feline care and so had a
major influence on early advances in veterinary treatment.

And if you look further, you'll find more.

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 12:33 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...

>
> but are exposed to an increased risk of diabetes and obesity, not to
mention
> anxiety disorders

Does your ignorance know no bounds? These are problems caused the *owner*
for not providing proper nutrition and environmental enrichment - *not* a
result of indoor living! Indoor cats simply require more effort,
creativity, imagination, and involvement - neither of which you seem to
possess or are cable of understanding.

In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an indoor cat
due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars,
environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical and
psychological disorders. Or do you also live in a sterile, silent vacuum
all alone?

You don't know enough about cats to even know how much you don't know! IOW,
you're an babbling idiot!

Ashley

April 5th 05, 12:33 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
>> > I think that if they're going to make such flat, bold assertions, they
>> > should cite their studies without being asked. Otherwise, frankly, it's
>> > a Web site, which anyone can have.
>> >
>>
>> But you'll find this on that particular website:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Anyone would think vets with specialist knowledge of cats contributed to
>> it
>>... or something
>
> That's all very nice, but it's not a citation for their assertions.

No. Because it's not a scientific paper. It's a public information site. As
I have stated, before, they have different conventions. Me, I get
information from both. And I'm sure you do, too.

I'm
> sure we could find hundreds of equally or better qualified veterinarians
> and behaviourists who could easily refute these assertions (Phil did
> earlier, I believe -- e.g., Dr Dodman is a guru of cat behaviour, and
> The Cat Who Cried for Help is an outstanding book).

What Phil did was post a selective list of vets he agrees who back up his
world view (but I noted that one of them simply said that cats will readily
fit into the human family, and he somehow took this as meaning they took
readily to indoor life or something. Don't know what he was doing with that
quote). The site you are debating is the site of a well-established and
respected cat care/research group with the input of many and, I might add,
very well-balanced viewpoints. The page that you are dismissing because it
did not have scientific cites put a couple of points in favour of indoor
cats so rationally, that I considered them whereas I had not before. I would
suggest that if you read that page with a truly open mind, it might actually
make you think a bit. That is, of course, just a suggestion :-)

> Hodge came to me with behavioural problems. He is an indoor cat.
> Therefore, the way your sources' assertions are worded, he's one of
> those American cats with behavioural problems caused by being kept
> indoors. What such glib assertions fail to take into account:
>
> 1. He had been front declawed at some point prior to his abandonment,
> which I understand in and of itself can cause behavioural problems.

And which is a direct result of keeping cats indoors, no? Outdoor cats don't
get declawed. Certainly, I'd never heard of the procedure until I started
subscribing to newsgroups and was (and still am) aghast at the concept!

> 2. He is a dominant-aggressive cat; IIRC, Dr. Dodman calls this dominant
> dog syndrome.

like my Tahi

> 3. Judging from his initial dominant-aggressive-fear response to almost
> any gesture (even my walking, let alone trying to pet him), I suspect he
> was abused.

sounds likely

> 4. There's a possibility he had feral traits.
>
> (He's made a lot of progress, by the way. A lot.)
>

Excellent.

> Without two statistically valid sets of kittens under identical
> circumstances with indoor/outdoor being the only variable, and a control
> group, a scientifically valid plan for the study, and peer review of the
> resulting findings, there's no way to determine the source of
> behavioural problems as "being kept indoors," as this site asserts. It's
> anecdotal evidence.

you don't know that, you are choosing to assume that.

Veterinarians should know better to make such
> assertions without evidence or, in the absence of it, without
> qualifiers. ("It is our opinion that American cats," etc.)
>
> I wouldn't take Hodge to them, that's for sure.
>

That would be because it's an organisation, not a veterinary practice ;-)

Ashley

April 5th 05, 12:35 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
>> For example, if you clicked on the "About fab" link, you'd find this
>>
>> Cats are an endless source of fascination, but back in 1958 when the
>> Feline
>> Advisory Bureau (FAB) was founded by Joan Judd, little was really known
>> about them or their veterinary needs. FAB gathered information from a
>> variety of sources and funded vets to specialise in feline care and so
>> had a
>> major influence on early advances in veterinary treatment.
>
> Great marketing copy! Another unfounded assertion dressed up to sell.

OK, so you're obviously not going to read the site. You are perfectly
entitled to refuse to broaden your knowledge. But I'm perfectly entitled to
regard you as a closed mind, as a result.

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 01:09 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > In article >,
> > "Ashley" > wrote:
> >
> >> > I think that if they're going to make such flat, bold assertions,
they
> >> > should cite their studies without being asked. Otherwise, frankly,
it's
> >> > a Web site, which anyone can have.
> >> >
> >>
> >> But you'll find this on that particular website:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Anyone would think vets with specialist knowledge of cats contributed
to
> >> it
> >>... or something
> >
> > That's all very nice, but it's not a citation for their assertions.
>
> No. Because it's not a scientific paper. It's a public information site.
As
> I have stated, before, they have different conventions. Me, I get
> information from both. And I'm sure you do, too.
>
> I'm
> > sure we could find hundreds of equally or better qualified veterinarians
> > and behaviourists who could easily refute these assertions (Phil did
> > earlier, I believe -- e.g., Dr Dodman is a guru of cat behaviour, and
> > The Cat Who Cried for Help is an outstanding book).
>
> What Phil did was post a selective list of vets he agrees who back up his
> world view

That's exactly what you did you ****ing moron!

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 02:36 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:Dcn4e.110900$KI2.70697@clgrps12...
> OK, this little debate has become a little too nasty. I respect both
> opinions, indoor & outdoor... Both have strong reasons behind them &
> basically it comes down to personal choice.
>
> My own choice is to let the cats outdoors... Only in the daytime. They
> both
> got gentle introductions to the outside world, short 10 min sessions with
> me
> a few times a week, building up to a leashed walk (much of which each of
> them spent inside my vest) to TED.
>
> Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
> Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'.
> The
> population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
> 'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.
>
> Catnipped: Relax darling.... I know your indoor cats will live forever &
> you can say 'I told you so' when either Chablis or Muscat turn up dead of
> a
> car hit or a bear attack (although, Chablis has befreinded the local
> skunks
> & that makes it an even match in my book)... But some people are just not
> going to agree with you. Think back to your 'American Bashing' thread....
>
> As I've been typing this, Chablis has just come in from her sunset stroll,
> she's fine. I mean, aside from the missing paw, chewed up tail, facial
> lacerations & the jug of antifreeze she's sipping on, she's fine. Have
> some
> catnip & shake it off little girl.
>
> Toung still firmly in cheek...
>
> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas

Oh sweetie, I'm perfectly calm. To my knowledge I haven't called anyone any
names in these threads (and if I've just forgotten and I have, please point
it out so I can apologize). I *am* stating my opinions firmly because I
care very much about the welfare of cats - *all* cats. Even if it doesn't
worry you to let your cats out, it worries *me* for them!

On the other side of the argument, however, I have read
"obsessive-compulsive", "over-egged" (whatever the heck that means!),
"holier-than-thou pontificating", and in lots and lots of other words (which
I don't have the time now to google) the implication that Americans are
being overly risk conscious, unaware that the world exists outside of their
borders, and basically have our collective heads up our collective
posteriors (just another angle of America bashing when it gets down to it -
very condescending).

However, I am getting out of this debate. As I told Ashley, I'll only bang
my head against a brick wall until it hurts, not until I'm bloodied and
obviously everything I've had to say on this subject has fallen on deaf ears
(er, eyes). I will keep your kitties, and Ashley's kitties, in my prayers
and sincerely hope that I don't see anyone here again posting about how they
lost their precious cats to the dangers of the outside world.

Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information... Megan,
Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long time,
since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a guestimate
of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat", or
"Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"? Ten,
twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?

Hugs,

CatNipped

kaeli

April 5th 05, 03:00 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

He might be if he actually lived here.

And some people accuse Americans of not being able to see the differences
between the countries...

Urban areas are not safe for cats to roam. In addition to cars, dogs, and
people, there are a lot of chemicals that are poisonous to cats that they can
ingest either by accident (cleaning it off fur, eating a poisoned prey
animal) or on purpose (we still have that antifreeze that is sweet tasting
and dangerous). Some people will poison cats (and dogs) ON PURPOSE.

We have very few rural areas safe enough for cats to roam unattended off
their own property. Many places they are not safe even on their own property
due to our natural predators (coyotes, bears, etc) and other wildlife
(racoons, possums, etc). Just two days ago I saw a possum larger than my
largest cat walking around outside in the bushes. While they don't go after
cats, if a cat goes after IT, it can do serious damage or even kill the cat.

We have raptor birds (eagles, owls, hawks) large enough to kill a small cat
in some places (including where I live).
Some areas have poisonous creatures such as snakes and scorpions. Some places
have alligators and/or crocs. Some places have bears. Some have wolves.

There's just a crapload of things that can happen to an unattended small
animal here (including small dogs), whether you're in the city or in the
middle of nowhere.

--
--
~kaeli~
Never say, "Oops!"; always say, "Ah, interesting!"
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli

April 5th 05, 03:11 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
>
> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
>

The best of both worlds
A purpose built outdoor enclosure could provide your cat with the sights and
smells of the outside world and give his life some variety without exposing
him to many of the outdoor risks.

This is EXACTLY what I would love to do if I had a house.

I think that article has a lot of valid points, especially for the audience
it is written for (UK).
But one thing they're missing is that many of the behavior problems they
posit are the result of not going outside are actually problems due to the
cat not getting enough mental and physical stimulation. That's the owner's
fault. A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners actually take
the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. It has little to do with going
outside per se and everything to do with being bored to tears.

My 2 cents, anyway.

--
--
~kaeli~
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and
three hundred sixty-two admonishments to heterosexuals.
That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's
just that they need more supervision.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli

April 5th 05, 03:18 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
> town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.
>
> Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.

So can your dog or a child (yours or someone else's visiting, etc) if the
person driving up YOUR driveway is a moron.
My cat could get on my 'fridge and jump off and break a leg, too, but I don't
stop her from going up there.

At what point do we draw the line for risks?
(I know where MINE is; I'm asking rather generally)
At what point does it stop becoming our fault that a creature in our care was
hurt? If I let my cat climb on my counters and she falls and hurts herself,
is it my fault for letting her up there? If I let her in MY yard and some
idiot comes jamming up the drive and hits her, is it my fault or theirs?

Just a general question for thought -- people will have differing opinions on
this one, I'm sure.

--
--
~kaeli~
What's another word for thesaurus?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Alex

April 5th 05, 04:12 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...

> > <SNIP>
> Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
> Those of us who keep them indoors are not. It's very simple.
> Having seen many animals maimed and killed by cars etc., I
> and others feel strongly about this. You are wrong for endangering
> the animals that trust you. If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
> you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
> and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
> of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.
> For your cats' sakes, you should be reminded. The "venom" as
> you put it, is on your side.

Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?

Alex

April 5th 05, 04:16 PM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis" >

> And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
> town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.
>
> Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.

Is your cat stuffed, or can it move? How often does a car come up your
driveway?

> If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
> really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
> a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
> accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.

Any animal can survive incarceration, but we recognise now that zoos are
cruel. Cats are predators who should be allowed out to explore and enjoy
life.

Alex

April 5th 05, 04:20 PM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...

> Peter Neville, *British* world renowned feline behaviorist:
>
> "The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors.
> Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and playfulness,
> and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group
> hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts
the
> benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its
> self-determining and independent behaviour.
>
> Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House,
> Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK (Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline Medicine,
> Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England)
> BSAVA; and Manual of Feline Behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary
> Association, Kingsley House. Church Lane. Shurdington, Cheltenham.
> Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ
>
>
> Dr. Nicholas Dodman, *British*, and the Director of the Behavior Clinic at
> Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known
> specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, states
>
> "Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors. The average lifespan of an indoor
> cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to
> reach double digits. I personally have lost three cats prematurely to
> trauma over the past fifteen years. Two were struck by vehicles on a
fairly
> quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog.
Because
> of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and hard
> about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where
> they're safest" (Excerpted from the Cat Who Cried for Help).
>
>
>
> "The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous
> plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling
> reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to
keep
> declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves or
> escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer and
> healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets. They
don't
> endanger birds and other wildlife or bring home fleas or dead animals, nor
> do they need frequent visits to the veterinarian to treat injuries
sustained
> in scraps with rival cats.
>
> Screened-in porches or specially constructed window enclosures allow
> indoor-only cats to sniff the fresh air, peruse the goings-on outside, and
> bask in the sun. By regularly changing the indoor environment, you can
help
> keep your cat challenged-; strategically situated empty cardboard boxes or
> plain brown shopping bags (minus the handles) can provide an old space
with
> new interest." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health
Center:
>
>
>
> "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and
would
> have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying
> relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live
> longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars,
being
> injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus
and
> feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and
> possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors'
> properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly
there
> are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors."
>
> Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Animal Behaviour Clinic,
> Malvern Vie 3 144, *Australia*. Excerpted from Cat Behavior and Training.
>
>
>
> "Many cats born as strays and adopted as housecats adjust remarkably
> quickly. Indeed, many stray cats that are adopted remain indoors
permanently
> without protest. Cats that live in temperate climates may naturally
restrict
> their outdoor activity during cold winter months. These individuals may
> adapt more readily to being kept indoors permanently.
>
> Provide a wide variety of toys that are attractive to your cat (not just
to
> you). Frequently play with your young cat so that it is less prone to seek
> amusement elsewhere. It is particularly important to provide your cat with
> additional outlets by playing with it and engaging in interactive
diversions
> you both will enjoy. Have your cat neutered at an appropriate age as
> recommended by your veterinarian.
>
> Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental
> stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The risk
of
> injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with
> other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to
your
> cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor existence.
> Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe
> home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc,DACVB, Diplomate, American
College
> of Veterinary Behaviorists Director of Behavior Services, VCA South Shore
> Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA Clin. Asst. Prof., Tufts University
School
> of Veterinary Medicine.

Replace 'cat' with 'kids' - makes perfect sense.

Steve G

April 5th 05, 04:21 PM

Phil P. wrote:
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
(...)
> >
> > What Phil did was post a selective list of vets he agrees who back
up his
> > world view
>
> That's exactly what you did you ****ing moron!

It's easy to post vet or other 'authorative' sources to support either
viewpoint. This is because there is no universal agreement as to
whether cats should have outdoor access or not. In particular in places
outside the US, more (most) vets will suggest cats have outdoor access.
Not to mention the views of posters in this group are not necessarily
representative of views in the US as a whole.

Steve.

Steve G

April 5th 05, 04:34 PM

Mary wrote:
(...)
> >
>
> Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
> Those of us who keep them indoors are not.
(...)
> You are wrong for endangering the animals that trust you.

But letting your indoor cat become grossly obese is OK - or do you only
count outdoor dangers in your tirade? Or any dangers *you* expose your
cats to don't count?

> If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
> you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
> and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
> of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.

Ah, so all cat owners in the UK and NZ - yes, their cats are simply
disposible objects. All 50 million or so.

And the crusade and the xenophobia roll on...

Steve.

ceb

April 5th 05, 05:32 PM

(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t7uk$o97$0
:

> Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
> dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
> different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
> the neighborhood.
>

Better keep those kids and chickens inside... it sounds like bad things
happen outside. It might be best if we all stayed inside all the time too.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

ceb

April 5th 05, 05:47 PM

(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
:

> If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
> really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
> a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
> accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.
>

Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
pets due to an accident.

What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?

Accidents happen, and we take risks every day. My cat is happier if she
gets to go outside sometimes. So she and I take that risk. I find it
shocking that people would then not give me any sympathy if something
happened to her. I wouldn't treat other people that way.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:26 PM

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:32 PM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mary wrote:
> (...)
> > >
> >
> > Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
> > Those of us who keep them indoors are not.
> (...)
> > You are wrong for endangering the animals that trust you.
>
> But letting your indoor cat become grossly obese is OK - or do you only
> count outdoor dangers in your tirade? Or any dangers *you* expose your
> cats to don't count?

There are many less dangers inside than outside, Steve. You have resorted
to the lamest argument of all. And my fat cat was fat when she got here.
We're working on it.

>
> > If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
> > you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
> > and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
> > of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.
>
> Ah, so all cat owners in the UK and NZ - yes, their cats are simply
> disposible objects. All 50 million or so.
>
> And the crusade and the xenophobia roll on...
>

Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
winning the argument? It happens as many times as people are
not bright enough to "win" by other means. And it just makes
you look like an ass.

It is dangerous outside for unattended cats--everywhere there are cars,
and there are cars everywhere. Where there are no cars there are
generally wild animals that can hurt them. On the other hand, where
there are no cars there are generally no people. You are, quite
simply, wrong. On top of that, you want to endanger the lives
of the animals you are charged to protect and FEEL GOOD
about it. I have no problem with people who disagree with me.
I have a real problem with people who endanger animals. You
cannot argue that it is safe outside ANYWHERE for unattended
cats. There just is not a way to argue it. And yet you do. This makes
you--and those who attempt the same lame arguments--an ass of
the greatest magnitude.

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:35 PM

"Ashley" > wrote

> I am sure your cats are not miserable -
> if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But
> again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would
> not choose that life for my cats.
>

Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
That says it all.

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:38 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kitkat" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Ashley wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> >> managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.
> >
> > This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back
> > about risks in NZ.
>
> I was. But I also wanted to point out that the desire to maintain outdoor
> access for cats is widespread, if not universal, among animal care
> professionals here, and that while you guys have totally assimilated that
> world view, most of the rest of the world hasn't!
>

It is a conbination of laziness (it is far more convenient to open that
door than clean the cat box, isn't it, old girl?) and the old, stupid,
provincial, Victorian "be free wild thing be free" that we see in
so many Brits and Europeans. A clue for the clueless: we
DOMESTICATED them. Then we invented automobiles.
Voila! This means that outdoor cats mean lots of dead cats.

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:46 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:
> >
> > Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
> seen
> > a case. That's never. However, it is an issue in the UK, where he has
also
> > practised, and where it is the leading cause of cat poisoning. It makes
> > sense that this is probably a climate issue - the UK is colder, people
are
> > more likely to have antifreeze around and use it. The leading cause of
cat
> > poisoning in New Zealand is paracetamol, given by ignorant owners. He
has
> > referred me to the Vet Poisoning Information Service, a British
> > organisation, for more info, which I shall look up when I have more
time.
> > But he also said poisoning is not the issue with cats that it is for
dogs
> > simply because cats don't eat everything they encounter, and that if I
> check
> > out the VPIS, I will see that cat poisoning hardly rates.
> >
> > Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to
> > this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
> having
> > a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would
have
> > to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
> > those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of
the
> > newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels,
> but
> > New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.
> >
> > He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
> > managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.
>
> ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue
> has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of
you
> go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls
and
> chains off first!).
>

You have made great sense, here, CN, but it's the old thing Mark Twain
said: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
pig. I swear to you, I still believe that it all goes back to an underlying
belief that animals are disposable. I have seen this everywhere--but
particularly in places with strong British influences. What is insidious
about it is that they want to feel that way and endanger their animals
in ways that reflect their feelings, but don't you dare CALL it what it
IS. They just do not want to hear that the emperor has no new
clothes. It would be laughable if except for the fact that so many
lovely cats are getting slaughtered due to this attitude and the
dangerous practices it engenders.

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:51 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this
> issue
> > > has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all
of
> > > you
> > > go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the
balls
> > > and
> > > chains off first!).
> >
> > So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in
people's
> > mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them.
>
> I see you snipped out the section of your post I was responding to. Here
> I'll add it back so you can read it again (not that I think that will
> help!)...
>
> Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the
> American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all
times.
> "
>
> Care to interpret that differently than the way it did???
>

You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:57 PM

"Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
...
>
> >"Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:
>
> >>
> >> Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects
to
> >> this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
> >having
> >> a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would
have
> >> to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
> >> those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of
the
> >> newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower
levels,
> >but
> >> New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.
> >>
>
> I'm replying to this one since i missed the original post.
>
> This is interesting to hear. Is it possible to get more information on
> the rat poison? Here, it is very common for poisoned animals to then
> poison animals further up the food chain. The poison adds up and
> kills. I am curious to know if we use a stronger poison than
> neceesary, or something completely different. It seems odd that a
> something that will kill a hardy rat would not hurt a cat. 5 adult
> rats here would easily weigh as much as my smaller cats. I would think
> one poisoned rat could easily make my cat sick.
>
> And considering that rat poison is usually put inside some form of
> bait, I would think it would be enticing to cats as well.
>
> --
>

It is, Ashley is just pulling this stuff out of her ass. :)

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 06:58 PM

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

<SNIP>
>
> Oh sweetie, I'm perfectly calm. To my knowledge I haven't called anyone
any
> names in these threads (and if I've just forgotten and I have, please
point
> it out so I can apologize). I *am* stating my opinions firmly because I
> care very much about the welfare of cats - *all* cats. Even if it doesn't
> worry you to let your cats out, it worries *me* for them!

No, you have'nt gotten into namecalling. Although you did call Ashley
ignorant & (his?Her?) argument seems pretty well reasearched. Please do not
misunderstand, I worry EVERY time I let the hoolikittens out. I've taken
what precautions I can with that, I've spent lots of time out there with
them, made sure they're afraid of cars (If I start up my van, they bolt for
the cat door), discouraged leaving the yard (muscat is good for this,
chablis I've seen crossing the road)... Usually their forays into the
outside world don't last more than a couple of hours at a time (less if the
weather is foul), if they last longer, I go looking for the missing feline &
so far have always found them, in the yard, mucking about, looking at me
like 'Gee hooman, don't be so uptight'. So, I worry & let them have their
open air fun.
>
> On the other side of the argument, however, I have read
> "obsessive-compulsive", "over-egged" (whatever the heck that means!),
> "holier-than-thou pontificating", and in lots and lots of other words
(which
> I don't have the time now to google) the implication that Americans are
> being overly risk conscious, unaware that the world exists outside of
their
> borders, and basically have our collective heads up our collective
> posteriors (just another angle of America bashing when it gets down to
it -
> very condescending).

No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness' in
the USA has cranked up several notches about everything! Heavily encouraged
by your Government.... And why not? A paranoid population is way easier to
controll. It's happened to a smaller degree here in Canada, we passed a
security bill too... But it's kind of like a 'Diet Patriot Act'... Still bad
for you, but easier to swallow. Back to cats... As much as I worry when I
let the furballs out, I've spent enough time with them outside to know they
LOVE it! And I want my hoolikittens to be happy... So I swallow my fear &
let them play.
>
> However, I am getting out of this debate. As I told Ashley, I'll only
bang
> my head against a brick wall until it hurts, not until I'm bloodied and
> obviously everything I've had to say on this subject has fallen on deaf
ears
> (er, eyes). I will keep your kitties, and Ashley's kitties, in my prayers
> and sincerely hope that I don't see anyone here again posting about how
they
> lost their precious cats to the dangers of the outside world.

Thanks, I hope I never have to post a missing/killed by car post myself. Id
be devestated.
>
> Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
Megan,
> Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long time,
> since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a guestimate
> of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
> something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",
or
> "Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
Ten,
> twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?

Chablis has had a couple of abcesses, highly treatable.... Bottom line, I
respect your choice to have indoor only pets... Please give us
indoor/outdoor pet folks the same courtesey... Luv ya.

> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:58 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> > > Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I
> have
> > > two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping
them
> > > in
> > > or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational
> skills.
> > >
> >
> > You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats
do
> > not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside
> your
> > borders is different.
> >
> > I have no objection to you managing your cats and keeping them safe in
the
> > way that you think is best for your environment. I can understand that
in
> > some of the environments described, it would be best to keep cats
inside.
> > What I *do* object to is people who, based on their experiences of their
> > environments, then extrapolate to the fanatical, immovable belief that
all
> > cats in all environments should be kept indoors. That is plain
ignorance.
> >
> > What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the
> world
> > is not all as you see it from your window.
>
> Now you're backtracking? You said in other posts that there *are* risks
in
> NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of
you).
>
> Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat
> torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell
> me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that
> and I'll know you're lying.
>
> *YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my
> cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I*
let
> something happen to my cats because *I* was too lazy to interact with
them,
> play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their
> litterboxes twice a cay!
>

I get it. And I'm with you all the way, sister! ;)

Mary

April 5th 05, 06:59 PM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful.
>
> What type of vet is he, a backwoods, large animal farm vet!? LOL!
>
>
> His response:
> >
> > Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
> seen
> > a case. That's never.
>
> "Never"? Are you his only client or does he have another? How can he be
so
> sure he's never seen a case... if he's never seen a case!? Has he ever
seen
> a case of acute renal failure? If so, how did he know with absolute
> certainty that the ARF wasn't caused by EG toxicity, huh?
>

Now, now, Phil, I am sure Ashley's vet is every bit as bright as she is. :)

Mary

April 5th 05, 07:02 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
> > For example, if you clicked on the "About fab" link, you'd find this
> >
> > Cats are an endless source of fascination, but back in 1958 when the
Feline
> > Advisory Bureau (FAB) was founded by Joan Judd, little was really known
> > about them or their veterinary needs. FAB gathered information from a
> > variety of sources and funded vets to specialise in feline care and so
had a
> > major influence on early advances in veterinary treatment.
>
> Great marketing copy! Another unfounded assertion dressed up to sell.
>
> --

The FELINE ADVISORY BOARD!! Wahhhhh hahaha!

Mary

April 5th 05, 07:10 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
> > what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
> > back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
> > sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
> > or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.
>
> Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
instead
> of rhetoric - my bad!
>

Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
the assholes that they are. :)

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 07:11 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> (Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
> :
>
>> If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
>> really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
>> a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
>> accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.
>>
>
> Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
> pets due to an accident.

I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned, repeatedly,
that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT* listen to those
warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those warnings should be
ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how they lost their cat (usually
giving the rest of us gratuitous and graphic descriptions of how mangled the
cat was when it was found). I would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to
suffer and die because her person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or
just plain too lazy, to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding
environment for their cat.

> What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
> adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?

That would be tragic. But an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child or an adult
has knowledge that can not be imparted to an animal. Humans above a certain
age know what a red light or "don't walk" sign means. Humans above a
certain age would not eat rat poison out of someone's garden. Humans
(excepting hormonally-challenged male teenagers) don't usually fight tooth
and claw over territory. Humans can do millions of things, and make
informed and reasoned decisions that an animal simply can not.

> Accidents happen, and we take risks every day. My cat is happier if she
> gets to go outside sometimes. So she and I take that risk. I find it
> shocking that people would then not give me any sympathy if something
> happened to her. I wouldn't treat other people that way.

Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much happier she
is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then please ask her to
call and tell me how much happier she is by getting to go outside. What's
that? She can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know that
she is happier than if she were to stay inside? How has she told you that
she understands, has weighed, and accepts the risks of going outside.

You find it shocking that some people would not give you any sympathy if
something happened to your cat? Well I find it shocking that you would
place your cat in a situation where something awful *could* happen to her.
Again, I have a *LOT* of sympathy for your *cat*! As for me, unless one of
my cats accidently gets outside without me catching her and meets with
tragedy before I can catch her and bring her back inside, I won't *have* to
come here and ask for your sympathy.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 07:14 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...

> You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
> what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
> back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
> sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
> or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic instead
of rhetoric - my bad!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Mary

April 5th 05, 07:17 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> (Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t7uk$o97$0
> :
>
> > Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
> > dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
> > different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
> > the neighborhood.
> >
>
> Better keep those kids and chickens inside... it sounds like bad things
> happen outside. It might be best if we all stayed inside all the time too.
>

Cats and cars do not mix unless you like your cats dead. And there
are cars everywhere. You are wrong, and a danger to your cats.
The outdoors is great for them if you are with them, and they are
harnessed, or if they are in a safe enclosed space. Otherwise, you
are endangering them. They will not know this until they are bleeding.
However, you have the forebrain and the gd thumbs. You should
know better.

kaeli

April 5th 05, 07:25 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...

> Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?

Well, I wouldn't let my child (baby/toddler) who couldn't yet understand and
speak my language wander about unattended.
If I had a child, until that child was old enough to know enough to be safe,
that child would be accompanied by an adult at all times.

My cats go out on a lead/harness or they go outside in an enclosed space on
my balcony. I leash my dog, too. She might get hurt if she wandered about
freely. Go figure.

Do you let your kids wander the neighborhood unattended?
If so, would they like some candy?

[ okay, I'm going to hell. so sorry. ]

--
--
~kaeli~
A bicycle can't stand on its own because it is two tired.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 07:34 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:KkA4e.3079$jR3.2141@edtnps84...
>
>
> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> Oh sweetie, I'm perfectly calm. To my knowledge I haven't called anyone
> any
>> names in these threads (and if I've just forgotten and I have, please
> point
>> it out so I can apologize). I *am* stating my opinions firmly because I
>> care very much about the welfare of cats - *all* cats. Even if it
>> doesn't
>> worry you to let your cats out, it worries *me* for them!
>
> No, you have'nt gotten into namecalling. Although you did call Ashley
> ignorant & (his?Her?) argument seems pretty well reasearched.

Ignorant is not an insult, at least not to me, it means only that you have
not yet been informed or have learned some fact. The extent of my ignorance
on most things is immense. Ashley's arguments are not researched at all.
She did a quick google, found *one* site that sides with her point of view
and posted that (and as someone else pointed out this is a site that gives
only opinions and has not posted any proof to back up those opinions). As
for what her vet said, well did you read what my vet had to say in the
separate thread I posted? ;>

> Please do not
> misunderstand, I worry EVERY time I let the hoolikittens out. I've taken
> what precautions I can with that, I've spent lots of time out there with
> them, made sure they're afraid of cars (If I start up my van, they bolt
> for
> the cat door), discouraged leaving the yard (muscat is good for this,
> chablis I've seen crossing the road)... Usually their forays into the
> outside world don't last more than a couple of hours at a time (less if
> the
> weather is foul), if they last longer, I go looking for the missing feline
> &
> so far have always found them, in the yard, mucking about, looking at me
> like 'Gee hooman, don't be so uptight'. So, I worry & let them have their
> open air fun.

Are the happier? I'll repeat what I just wrote in another post... Really?
Please ask your cats to write to me and tell me how much happier they are by
getting to go outside. Oh, they can't write? Then please ask them to call
and tell me how much happier they are by getting to go outside. What's
that? They can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know
that they are happier than if they were to stay inside? How have they told
you that they understand, have weighed, and accept the risks of going
outside. By their behavior??? Look up anthropomorphism. You can not
possibly know what goes on inside your cats' minds, you can only project
onto them what you think you would prefer. I can give just as valid an
argument by saying my cats are *MUCH* happier by staying inside. How can
either of us prove that. I *CAN* prove, however, that my cats are *SAFER*
inside.

>>
>> On the other side of the argument, however, I have read
>> "obsessive-compulsive", "over-egged" (whatever the heck that means!),
>> "holier-than-thou pontificating", and in lots and lots of other words
> (which
>> I don't have the time now to google) the implication that Americans are
>> being overly risk conscious, unaware that the world exists outside of
> their
>> borders, and basically have our collective heads up our collective
>> posteriors (just another angle of America bashing when it gets down to
> it -
>> very condescending).
>
> No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness' in
> the USA has cranked up several notches about everything!

Nope, just doesn't wash. Bandit has been inside only since 1990 - *LONG*
before 9/11, *LONG* before we even thought terrorism could touch us here in
the US.

> Heavily encouraged
> by your Government.... And why not? A paranoid population is way easier to
> controll. It's happened to a smaller degree here in Canada, we passed a
> security bill too... But it's kind of like a 'Diet Patriot Act'... Still
> bad
> for you, but easier to swallow.

[OT] I totally agree and I'm doing everything in my power to change that -
but that has *NOTHING* to do with whether or not I keep my cats inside.

> Back to cats... As much as I worry when I
> let the furballs out, I've spent enough time with them outside to know
> they
> LOVE it! And I want my hoolikittens to be happy... So I swallow my fear
> &
> let them play.

Gee, mine play constantly - with the thousands of toys I've bought for them,
with *me* mostly (using either the cat dancer, any number of stick and
string toys, the laser pointer), and with each other. And the 15-year-old,
never *EVER* having been injured or faced with disease from the outdoors, is
just as jaunty and playful as the 1-year-old. Happy? See my argument
above. [Basically... my cats are happier than your cats nyah, nyah, nyah -
prove me wrong!]

>>
>> However, I am getting out of this debate. As I told Ashley, I'll only
> bang
>> my head against a brick wall until it hurts, not until I'm bloodied and
>> obviously everything I've had to say on this subject has fallen on deaf
> ears
>> (er, eyes). I will keep your kitties, and Ashley's kitties, in my
>> prayers
>> and sincerely hope that I don't see anyone here again posting about how
> they
>> lost their precious cats to the dangers of the outside world.
>
> Thanks, I hope I never have to post a missing/killed by car post myself.
> Id
> be devestated.

I hope you never do either. I can't imagine how devastated I would be if
something were to happen to one of my babies, but I *REALLY* can't imagine
how wracked with guilt I would be if it were something I could have
prevented from happening just be taking the extra time and effort to keep
them inside.

>>
>> Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
> Megan,
>> Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long
>> time,
>> since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a
>> guestimate
>> of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
>> something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",
> or
>> "Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
> Ten,
>> twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?
>
> Chablis has had a couple of abcesses, highly treatable.... Bottom line, I
> respect your choice to have indoor only pets... Please give us
> indoor/outdoor pet folks the same courtesey... Luv ya.

Bandit, 15 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc., 1 bad burn caused
by a vet (that wouldn't have happened inside my home).

Demi, 6 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

Jessie, 5 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

Sammy, 1 year old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off disease or
infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are taking
time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how happy
can an injured or ill cat be really?

Luv ya back!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
>
>

ceb

April 5th 05, 07:50 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
> happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
> please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by getting
> to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then please,
> pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she were to
> stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has weighed,
> and accepts the risks of going outside.
>

Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays out
for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.

Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't let
her out because she was still recovering.

Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside. As I have said
before, I have known cats who, as a result of living outside, never want
to go outside again. I thought Rosalie might be one of them, but I was
wrong. I would have preferred for my own sake that she be indoor only,
but since she likes going out and is pretty cautious, I do let her
sometimes.

Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat. Even after we got
Madeline, and she started going outside, Nickleby went out very rarely,
and then usually only if I went out with him. He wanted to be with me.
That's just the way he was. I wouldn't force a cat outside who didn't
want to go, and I wouldn't keep a cat inside all the time who wanted to
go out, given a reasonably safe environment.

I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats. I
don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right and a
wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is possible
to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about the whole
indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 07:51 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Mary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> > You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
>> > what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
>> > back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
>> > sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
>> > or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.
>>
>> Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
> instead
>> of rhetoric - my bad!
>>
>
> Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
> than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
> the assholes that they are. :)

LOL, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm from New Orleans and was
raised by a true Southern Belle. The madder we get, the quieter we get and
the more we start using endearments. When I heard my mother whisper,
"Darlin' girl, get your sweet self over here and let your momma look at your
precious face, angel!", I knew I was in a *world* of sh*t! ;>

In polite Southern society it would never do to point out someone's bad
manners or other faults - it's like you would treat a puppy who runs into a
room full of guests, wagging his tail, and then poops on the rug. A
Southern lady would not only pretend it hadn't happened, she would make
every guest *believe* it never happened!

It's usually not necessary to point out when someone is showing their
ignorance, most of the time all you have to do is stand back and let them
make a fool of *themselves*! But I'm finding out that that's not always the
case on usenet. Oh well, as my mother says, it takes all kinds!

Hugs,

CatNipped

ceb

April 5th 05, 07:53 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned,
> repeatedly, that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT*
> listen to those warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those
> warnings should be ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how
> they lost their cat (usually giving the rest of us gratuitous and
> graphic descriptions of how mangled the cat was when it was found). I
> would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to suffer and die because her
> person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or just plain too lazy,
> to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding environment for
> their cat.
>

What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree. That
doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

kaeli

April 5th 05, 07:56 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
> (Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
> :
>
> > If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
> > really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
> > a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
> > accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.
> >
>
> Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
> pets due to an accident.
>
> What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
> adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?
>

See, your opinion of the intellect of the average cat differs from mine and
Mary's. We don't equate the cat to an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child or an
adult.

If a parent lets their 3 year old out and the kid gets hit by a car, wouldn't
you blame the parents as well as the driver, even if you did still feel a bit
sorry for all involved?

If an 11 year old gets hits by a car, we feel differently toward the parents
than if a 3 year old gets hit by a car, presuming both were out unattended.
You feel that the cat is more like the 11 year old than the 3 year old. I
feel the opposite (as does Mary, I believe).

And yes, I DO blame the owner if the cat was purposefully let out to *wander*
and it gets hit by a car. I also blame the driver and I also feel sorry for
the owner, but there's blame as well as sympathy for all involved, IMO.
(assuming the driver is a human being and hit the cat by accident and feels
really bad about it)

It comes back to how I feel about my own cats and myself. If I let my cat out
and she got hit, I'd blame myself. No different for anyone else. Except I
know how guilty I'd feel, so I'd feel sorry for the other person, too.

--
--
~kaeli~
A man's home is his castle..., in a manor of speaking.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Mary

April 5th 05, 07:56 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote

> >
> > No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness'
in
> > the USA has cranked up several notches about everything!
>
> Nope, just doesn't wash. Bandit has been inside only since 1990 - *LONG*
> before 9/11, *LONG* before we even thought terrorism could touch us here
in
> the US.

Matthew also accused me of keeping my cats inside due to my intense
"FEAR" as he put it, in caps. It is not fear, it is just good sense. Per
the massacre of Sept. 11, 2001 in NYC, I am no more afraid now
than I was before. Fear is not really my strong suit. :)

>
> > Heavily encouraged
> > by your Government.... And why not? A paranoid population is way easier
to
> > controll. It's happened to a smaller degree here in Canada, we passed a
> > security bill too... But it's kind of like a 'Diet Patriot Act'... Still
> > bad
> > for you, but easier to swallow.
>

I think this is a bit far afield of whether or not cats are safe left
to roam outside unattended in places where there are cars. But
maybe that is just me.

Mary

April 5th 05, 08:02 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Mary" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >> > You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
> >> > what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
> >> > back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
> >> > sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
> >> > or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.
> >>
> >> Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
> > instead
> >> of rhetoric - my bad!
> >>
> >
> > Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
> > than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
> > the assholes that they are. :)
>
> LOL, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm from New Orleans and was
> raised by a true Southern Belle. The madder we get, the quieter we get
and
> the more we start using endearments. When I heard my mother whisper,
> "Darlin' girl, get your sweet self over here and let your momma look at
your
> precious face, angel!", I knew I was in a *world* of sh*t! ;>
>
> In polite Southern society it would never do to point out someone's bad
> manners or other faults - it's like you would treat a puppy who runs into
a
> room full of guests, wagging his tail, and then poops on the rug. A
> Southern lady would not only pretend it hadn't happened, she would make
> every guest *believe* it never happened!
>
> It's usually not necessary to point out when someone is showing their
> ignorance, most of the time all you have to do is stand back and let them
> make a fool of *themselves*! But I'm finding out that that's not always
the
> case on usenet. Oh well, as my mother says, it takes all kinds!
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>

LOL! You can tell I was not raised in the south. I love this
characterization, great job. Ever think about writing about your
southern upbringing? Some of my favorite writers are southern
women.
Ever

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 08:04 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

<SNIP>
>
> Are the happier? I'll repeat what I just wrote in another post...
Really?
> Please ask your cats to write to me and tell me how much happier they are
by
> getting to go outside. Oh, they can't write? Then please ask them to
call
> and tell me how much happier they are by getting to go outside. What's
> that? They can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know
> that they are happier than if they were to stay inside? How have they
told
> you that they understand, have weighed, and accept the risks of going
> outside. By their behavior??? Look up anthropomorphism. You can not
> possibly know what goes on inside your cats' minds, you can only project
> onto them what you think you would prefer. I can give just as valid an
> argument by saying my cats are *MUCH* happier by staying inside. How can
> either of us prove that. I *CAN* prove, however, that my cats are *SAFER*
> inside.
> --

I know what anthropomorphism is. & it's just as valid to turn that back on
you, my dear. As much as we have domesicated cats, deep in their limbic
brains they are still meat eating predators.... So, does it make them
happier to play with stuffed toys on a carpet or do what several thousand
years of instinct are pushing them to do... go outside & hunt? As they
can't write or talk, we may never know... But I can tell you how fascinated
& happy Chablis SEEMS to me when she's brought home a kill & so far she's
been eating them... Following her genetic programming, I'd call that as
close to happy as we can define.
You are right, CN, your cats are safer than mine. I once read a very
funny book entitled '**** YES' by Dr. Wing Foo Fing (penname for Tom
Robbins). It compared safety & sanity in one chapter... It suggested that
the two are mutually exclusive. You can be safe OR you can be sane & accept
that life will kick the living sh&@ out of you at every oppurtunity....
Hmmmm....

<SNIP>

>
> You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
> injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off disease
or
> infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are
taking
> time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how
happy
> can an injured or ill cat be really?

Id argue that one, I've studied herbal medecine 92 years under a master
herbalist) & spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, doing emergency trauma stuff.
Reasearch points to a need to expose humans to various pathogens to
stimulate immune response. Doctors are finding too many children with weak
immune systems, because kids don't get 'old fashioned dirty' any more.
Chabils has some immune issues, her first abcess occured way before I
started letting her outside, no Idea what she cut herself on, probably the
edge of a peice of furniture or something...? Anyway, she's now on
Astragulus to boost her immune efficiency. How can your cat rejoice in
feeling healthy if it never knows what feeling lousy is all about?

Once I teach Chablis how to type, I'll have her contact you & you can
compare notes.
>
> Luv ya back!
Right Back at you CN.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
> >> --
> > Mathew
> > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> > En Vino Veritas
> >
> >
>
>

Mary

April 5th 05, 08:04 PM

Mary

April 5th 05, 08:05 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned,
> > repeatedly, that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT*
> > listen to those warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those
> > warnings should be ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how
> > they lost their cat (usually giving the rest of us gratuitous and
> > graphic descriptions of how mangled the cat was when it was found). I
> > would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to suffer and die because her
> > person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or just plain too lazy,
> > to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding environment for
> > their cat.
> >
>
> What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree. That
> doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.
>
> --

It does when your stance endangers cats for your own convenience.

Mary

April 5th 05, 08:06 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:JiB4e.3097$jR3.397@edtnps84...
>
>
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
> >
> > Are the happier? I'll repeat what I just wrote in another post...
> Really?
> > Please ask your cats to write to me and tell me how much happier they
are
> by
> > getting to go outside. Oh, they can't write? Then please ask them to
> call
> > and tell me how much happier they are by getting to go outside. What's
> > that? They can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know
> > that they are happier than if they were to stay inside? How have they
> told
> > you that they understand, have weighed, and accept the risks of going
> > outside. By their behavior??? Look up anthropomorphism. You can not
> > possibly know what goes on inside your cats' minds, you can only project
> > onto them what you think you would prefer. I can give just as valid an
> > argument by saying my cats are *MUCH* happier by staying inside. How
can
> > either of us prove that. I *CAN* prove, however, that my cats are
*SAFER*
> > inside.
> > --
>
> I know what anthropomorphism is. & it's just as valid to turn that back
on
> you, my dear. As much as we have domesicated cats, deep in their limbic
> brains they are still meat eating predators.... So, does it make them
> happier to play with stuffed toys on a carpet or do what several thousand
> years of instinct are pushing them to do... go outside & hunt? As they
> can't write or talk, we may never know... But I can tell you how
fascinated
> & happy Chablis SEEMS to me when she's brought home a kill & so far she's
> been eating them... Following her genetic programming, I'd call that as
> close to happy as we can define.
> You are right, CN, your cats are safer than mine. I once read a very
> funny book entitled '**** YES' by Dr. Wing Foo Fing (penname for Tom
> Robbins). It compared safety & sanity in one chapter... It suggested that
> the two are mutually exclusive. You can be safe OR you can be sane &
accept
> that life will kick the living sh&@ out of you at every oppurtunity....
> Hmmmm....

He was not talking about cats, dumbass. He was talking about
humans.

ceb

April 5th 05, 08:08 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> how wracked with guilt I would be if it were something I could have
> prevented from happening just be taking the extra time and effort to
> keep them inside.
>

How does it take extra time and effort to keep them inside? I found that
having an inside-only cat was much easier than letting the cat out, opening
and closing doors, keeping an eye on things, etc etc. Not that either
scenario is terribly hard. I just fail to see how letting the cat out
sometimes means that I'm expending less time and effort with respect to my
cat.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

kaeli

April 5th 05, 08:14 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information... Megan,
> Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long time,
> since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a guestimate
> of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
> something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",

*snickers*
Love the typo. :)

> or
> "Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"? Ten,
> twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?
>

Even if there were 30, it wouldn't really prove much.
Considering there are millions of pet cats out there and all.

--
--
~kaeli~
A man's home is his castle..., in a manor of speaking.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:22 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
>> happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
>> please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by getting
>> to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then please,
>> pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she were to
>> stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has weighed,
>> and accepts the risks of going outside.
>>
>
> Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
> cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays out
> for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.

Gee, when my kids were toddlers they cried for candy and didn't want to eat
their vegetables. Eating candy, they clearly enjoyed themselves. Silly me
worrying about their nutrition and their health when I should have been
giving them what they cried for so they could be happy.

When they were youngsters they cried that they didn't want to go to school.
They clearly enjoyed staying home and playing instead. How cruel of me to
*force* them to go, I made them terribly unhappy by doing so.

When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being able to
stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what they *wanted* to
do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!

It's such a shame that they turned out to be such happy, healthy (never been
sick a day in their lives, never had a cavity), productive adults with happy
families and good careers. I just didn't have anybody to tell me how wrong
I was to make them so unhappy!

> Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
> After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't let
> her out because she was still recovering.
>
> Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside. As I have said
> before, I have known cats who, as a result of living outside, never want
> to go outside again. I thought Rosalie might be one of them, but I was
> wrong. I would have preferred for my own sake that she be indoor only,
> but since she likes going out and is pretty cautious, I do let her
> sometimes.
>
> Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat. Even after we got
> Madeline, and she started going outside, Nickleby went out very rarely,
> and then usually only if I went out with him. He wanted to be with me.
> That's just the way he was. I wouldn't force a cat outside who didn't
> want to go, and I wouldn't keep a cat inside all the time who wanted to
> go out, given a reasonably safe environment.
>
> I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats. I
> don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right and a
> wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is possible
> to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about the whole
> indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.

Yes I disagree, simply because I would never knowingly put someone I love in
harm's way. when you love someone you do what's *best* for them, not simply
what makes them happy. I wouldn't let my toddlers *or* my cats play in
traffic!

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 08:28 PM

oops...that's 2 years under a master herbalist... diddn't hit the shift key
the 9 should be a (.

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:JiB4e.3097$jR3.397@edtnps84...
>
>
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
> >
> > Are the happier? I'll repeat what I just wrote in another post...
> Really?
> > Please ask your cats to write to me and tell me how much happier they
are
> by
> > getting to go outside. Oh, they can't write? Then please ask them to
> call
> > and tell me how much happier they are by getting to go outside. What's
> > that? They can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know
> > that they are happier than if they were to stay inside? How have they
> told
> > you that they understand, have weighed, and accept the risks of going
> > outside. By their behavior??? Look up anthropomorphism. You can not
> > possibly know what goes on inside your cats' minds, you can only project
> > onto them what you think you would prefer. I can give just as valid an
> > argument by saying my cats are *MUCH* happier by staying inside. How
can
> > either of us prove that. I *CAN* prove, however, that my cats are
*SAFER*
> > inside.
> > --
>
> I know what anthropomorphism is. & it's just as valid to turn that back
on
> you, my dear. As much as we have domesicated cats, deep in their limbic
> brains they are still meat eating predators.... So, does it make them
> happier to play with stuffed toys on a carpet or do what several thousand
> years of instinct are pushing them to do... go outside & hunt? As they
> can't write or talk, we may never know... But I can tell you how
fascinated
> & happy Chablis SEEMS to me when she's brought home a kill & so far she's
> been eating them... Following her genetic programming, I'd call that as
> close to happy as we can define.
> You are right, CN, your cats are safer than mine. I once read a very
> funny book entitled '**** YES' by Dr. Wing Foo Fing (penname for Tom
> Robbins). It compared safety & sanity in one chapter... It suggested that
> the two are mutually exclusive. You can be safe OR you can be sane &
accept
> that life will kick the living sh&@ out of you at every oppurtunity....
> Hmmmm....
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >
> > You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
> > injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off
disease
> or
> > infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are
> taking
> > time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how
> happy
> > can an injured or ill cat be really?
>
> Id argue that one, I've studied herbal medecine 92 years under a master
> herbalist) & spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, doing emergency trauma stuff.
> Reasearch points to a need to expose humans to various pathogens to
> stimulate immune response. Doctors are finding too many children with
weak
> immune systems, because kids don't get 'old fashioned dirty' any more.
> Chabils has some immune issues, her first abcess occured way before I
> started letting her outside, no Idea what she cut herself on, probably the
> edge of a peice of furniture or something...? Anyway, she's now on
> Astragulus to boost her immune efficiency. How can your cat rejoice in
> feeling healthy if it never knows what feeling lousy is all about?
>
> Once I teach Chablis how to type, I'll have her contact you & you can
> compare notes.
> >
> > Luv ya back!
> Right Back at you CN.
> >
> > Hugs,
> >
> > CatNipped
> >
> > >> --
> > > Mathew
> > > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> > > En Vino Veritas
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:30 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:JiB4e.3097$jR3.397@edtnps84...

> I know what anthropomorphism is. & it's just as valid to turn that back
> on
> you, my dear.

How so, darlin' man?

> As much as we have domesicated cats, deep in their limbic
> brains they are still meat eating predators.... So, does it make them
> happier to play with stuffed toys on a carpet or do what several thousand
> years of instinct are pushing them to do... go outside & hunt?

Why yes, dear, it does. The stuffed toys are filled with catnip and not
with rat poison, they have no idea what a *real* rat even looks like and
can't possibly know what they're missing. Being healthy is a happier state
to be in than being injured or sick, I can tell you that from personal
experience, I don't have to anthropomorphize - health is health and pain is
pain no matter what the species.

> As they
> can't write or talk, we may never know... But I can tell you how
> fascinated
> & happy Chablis SEEMS to me when she's brought home a kill & so far she's
> been eating them... Following her genetic programming, I'd call that as
> close to happy as we can define.

Well if following her genetic programming causes her to eat rat poison or
run in front of a car while chasing the rat, um, I can't tell you whether
being dead is a happier state than being alive, but I'm suspecting it isn't.

> You are right, CN, your cats are safer than mine. I once read a very
> funny book entitled '**** YES' by Dr. Wing Foo Fing (penname for Tom
> Robbins). It compared safety & sanity in one chapter... It suggested that
> the two are mutually exclusive. You can be safe OR you can be sane &
> accept
> that life will kick the living sh&@ out of you at every oppurtunity....
> Hmmmm....

Oh dear, I'd better be on the lookout for those little mice knocking on my
door with their white coats looking to take my kitties off to the funny
farm!!

As for myself, well during all those endless corporate touchy-feely
personality/team building tests I've come out as a high risk-taker so I
guess I'm pretty sane then. The difference is I have the intellect to weigh
the risks I take, my cats don't.

>
> <SNIP>
>
>>
>> You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
>> injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off disease
> or
>> infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are
> taking
>> time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how
> happy
>> can an injured or ill cat be really?
>
> Id argue that one, I've studied herbal medecine 92 years under a master
> herbalist) & spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, doing emergency trauma stuff.
> Reasearch points to a need to expose humans to various pathogens to
> stimulate immune response. Doctors are finding too many children with
> weak
> immune systems, because kids don't get 'old fashioned dirty' any more.
> Chabils has some immune issues, her first abcess occured way before I
> started letting her outside, no Idea what she cut herself on, probably the
> edge of a peice of furniture or something...? Anyway, she's now on
> Astragulus to boost her immune efficiency. How can your cat rejoice in
> feeling healthy if it never knows what feeling lousy is all about?

Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at them
because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier and
heartier than ever before in our history.

> Once I teach Chablis how to type, I'll have her contact you & you can
> compare notes.
>>
>> Luv ya back!
> Right Back at you CN.

Oooo. The lurve is getting *thick* in here!!! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped
>>
>> >> --
>> > Mathew
>> > Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
>> > En Vino Veritas
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:34 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Mary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> "Mary" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> > You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
>> >> > what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
>> >> > back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
>> >> > sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that
>> >> > demonize
>> >> > or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the
>> >> > dim-witted.
>> >>
>> >> Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
>> > instead
>> >> of rhetoric - my bad!
>> >>
>> >
>> > Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
>> > than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
>> > the assholes that they are. :)
>>
>> LOL, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm from New Orleans and was
>> raised by a true Southern Belle. The madder we get, the quieter we get
> and
>> the more we start using endearments. When I heard my mother whisper,
>> "Darlin' girl, get your sweet self over here and let your momma look at
> your
>> precious face, angel!", I knew I was in a *world* of sh*t! ;>
>>
>> In polite Southern society it would never do to point out someone's bad
>> manners or other faults - it's like you would treat a puppy who runs into
> a
>> room full of guests, wagging his tail, and then poops on the rug. A
>> Southern lady would not only pretend it hadn't happened, she would make
>> every guest *believe* it never happened!
>>
>> It's usually not necessary to point out when someone is showing their
>> ignorance, most of the time all you have to do is stand back and let them
>> make a fool of *themselves*! But I'm finding out that that's not always
> the
>> case on usenet. Oh well, as my mother says, it takes all kinds!
>>
>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped
>>
>
>
> LOL! You can tell I was not raised in the south. I love this
> characterization, great job. Ever think about writing about your
> southern upbringing? Some of my favorite writers are southern
> women.
> Ever

Honey chile, we couldn't give away our secrets like that, why I could be
banned from Southern Belle society just for telling you the little I did!
;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

ceb

April 5th 05, 08:34 PM

kaeli > wrote in
:

> It comes back to how I feel about my own cats and myself. If I let my
> cat out and she got hit, I'd blame myself. No different for anyone
> else. Except I know how guilty I'd feel, so I'd feel sorry for the
> other person, too.
>

I'd blame myself too. As would a parent with an old-enough-to-be-out
child. They're our dependents, we're supposed to keep them safe. But to
keep them 100% safe means that they would be deprived of some pretty
significant experiences. Keeping them safe is only one part of what we
are supposed to do, IMO.

My dogs would be safer if they didn't go outside too. Even on leashes.
But man, would they be miserable. (Yes, I would be able to tell.) As pet
owners, we are always balancing the wish to keep them safe with the wish
to provide them as fulfilling a life as possible. For different cats,
that may well mean different decisions. As I have said, I personally
would be happier if the cat never wanted to go out; I have known cats who
are this way, but Rosalie does like to go out. (Yes, I can tell.)

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie
& Rosalie the calico

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 08:35 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

<SNIP>

> Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at
them
> because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier and
> heartier than ever before in our history.

Extensive studies on immune deficiency can be found at:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/

http://www.thelancet.com/

These are the 2 major medical publications in the western world...

I feel the love CN.

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas>

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:36 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
>> I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned,
>> repeatedly, that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT*
>> listen to those warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those
>> warnings should be ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how
>> they lost their cat (usually giving the rest of us gratuitous and
>> graphic descriptions of how mangled the cat was when it was found). I
>> would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to suffer and die because her
>> person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or just plain too lazy,
>> to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding environment for
>> their cat.
>>
>
> What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree. That
> doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.

No, of course it doesn't. What makes a person irresponsible, thick-headed
and lazy is when sometging has been shown to them to cause harm to someone
they love, but they do it anyway because it's convenient.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:41 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
>> how wracked with guilt I would be if it were something I could have
>> prevented from happening just be taking the extra time and effort to
>> keep them inside.
>>
>
> How does it take extra time and effort to keep them inside? I found that
> having an inside-only cat was much easier than letting the cat out,
> opening
> and closing doors, keeping an eye on things, etc etc. Not that either
> scenario is terribly hard. I just fail to see how letting the cat out
> sometimes means that I'm expending less time and effort with respect to my
> cat.

Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making sure
they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing toys down on
the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually putting forth
physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get the exercise they
need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.

Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and close
doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to get off
their lazy.... sorry.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

ceb

April 5th 05, 08:43 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> "ceb" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "CatNipped" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
>>> happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
>>> please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by
>>> getting to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then
>>> please, pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she
>>> were to stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has
>>> weighed, and accepts the risks of going outside.
>>>
>>
>> Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
>> cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays
>> out for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.
>
> Gee, when my kids were toddlers they cried for candy and didn't want
> to eat their vegetables. Eating candy, they clearly enjoyed
> themselves. Silly me worrying about their nutrition and their health
> when I should have been giving them what they cried for so they could
> be happy.

Candy AND vegetables are both important.

>
> When they were youngsters they cried that they didn't want to go to
> school. They clearly enjoyed staying home and playing instead. How
> cruel of me to *force* them to go, I made them terribly unhappy by
> doing so.

Playing AND going to school are both important.

>
> When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
> able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what they
> *wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!

Partying AND sleeping are both important.

>
> It's such a shame that they turned out to be such happy, healthy
> (never been sick a day in their lives, never had a cavity), productive
> adults with happy families and good careers. I just didn't have
> anybody to tell me how wrong I was to make them so unhappy!

I am not advocating letting the cat do whatever she wants, whenever she wants (as I
mentioned in the paragraph below). I am advocating something more like "yes, you can
have candy sometimes; you can play sometimes; you can party sometimes."

>
>> Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
>> After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't
>> let her out because she was still recovering.
>>
>> Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside.
>>
>> Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat.
>>
>> I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats.
>> I don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right
>> and a wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is
>> possible to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about
>> the whole indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.
>
> Yes I disagree, simply because I would never knowingly put someone I
> love in harm's way. when you love someone you do what's *best* for
> them, not simply what makes them happy. I wouldn't let my toddlers
> *or* my cats play in traffic!

Sometimes what's best for us IS doing what makes us happy. That's actually true a lot,
IMO.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:43 PM

"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>>
>> Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
>> Megan,
>> Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long
>> time,
>> since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a
>> guestimate
>> of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
>> something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",
>
> *snickers*
> Love the typo. :)

Yeah, I caught that too after I hit send - although it does apply as is when
you consider cat fights are even more common than car hits.

>> or
>> "Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
>> Ten,
>> twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?
>>
>
> Even if there were 30, it wouldn't really prove much.
> Considering there are millions of pet cats out there and all.

Well yes, but all those millions of owners don't post here. I'm just
talking a percentage of the people who post here and then again a percentage
of those who allow their cats outside.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> --
> ~kaeli~
> A man's home is his castle..., in a manor of speaking.
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
>

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:45 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:HLB4e.62$yV3.49@clgrps12...
>
>
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at
> them
>> because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier
>> and
>> heartier than ever before in our history.
>
> Extensive studies on immune deficiency can be found at:
>
> http://jama.ama-assn.org/
>
> http://www.thelancet.com/
>
> These are the 2 major medical publications in the western world...

Thanks for the links, I'll have to look into those after work - should be
interesting!

> I feel the love CN.

Don't you just, though!!! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas>
>
>

Ashley

April 5th 05, 08:45 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
>> What Phil did was post a selective list of vets he agrees who back up his
>> world view (but I noted that one of them simply said that cats will
>> readily
>> fit into the human family, and he somehow took this as meaning they took
>> readily to indoor life or something.
>
> Which is exactly what you did by posting the Web site you did.

No, actually, that web site give the pros and cons of *both* approaches.
It's called balance.

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 08:46 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

<SNIP>
>
> Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making
sure
> they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing toys down
on
> the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually putting forth
> physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get the exercise they
> need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.
>
> Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and close
> doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to get off
> their lazy.... sorry.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped

I'm one of those lazy people with a cat door. Mine is set to in only, I
controll when they go out, they can come in when they want... This also
gives them greater protection if being chased by a larger mammal.

I own a cat dancer & several other interactive toys, which I use alot... As
the furrballs aren't allowed out at night, I play with them. Muscat is into
a fetch thing as well... He'll play with a toy mouse, slowly beating it back
to where I am & then wait for me to throw it down the hall.... Very cute.
Chablis seems less into the interactive toys & often just watches as Muscat
& I play. I think it's because she has tasted blood & is FAR more
interested in a warm tasty rodent than a cold one that tastes like cat
spit....
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Ashley

April 5th 05, 08:48 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
.net...

> If they had cites, why don't they provide them? Without cites, it's
> anecdotal. That's not an assumption.

Oh yes it is. Anyway, quite frankly, I've had enough of this merry-go-round.
For your information, the only thing in the debate that has made me think
twice about one or two of my beliefs was that site, because it contained
balanced, reasoned arguments, outlining pros and cons of both approaches.
That's the sort of information I tend to take notice of.

ceb

April 5th 05, 08:50 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

>> What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree.
>> That doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.
>
> No, of course it doesn't. What makes a person irresponsible,
> thick-headed and lazy is when sometging has been shown to them to
> cause harm to someone they love, but they do it anyway because it's
> convenient.
>

Ok, I'm done now. I don't wish to argue or discuss with people who aren't
respectful to me or others.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 08:56 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "ceb" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "CatNipped" > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
>>>> happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
>>>> please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by
>>>> getting to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then
>>>> please, pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she
>>>> were to stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has
>>>> weighed, and accepts the risks of going outside.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
>>> cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays
>>> out for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.
>>
>> Gee, when my kids were toddlers they cried for candy and didn't want
>> to eat their vegetables. Eating candy, they clearly enjoyed
>> themselves. Silly me worrying about their nutrition and their health
>> when I should have been giving them what they cried for so they could
>> be happy.
>
> Candy AND vegetables are both important.

No, actually, they're *not*. In fact, candy was particularly *BAD* for my
children - they were on a special diet and never got candy. They did,
however, love fruit, and that didn't make them sick, or fat, or give them a
belly ache. To this day they don't like candy because they've never
developed a taste for it - and my daughter has had three children and still
wears a size -1 (that *negative* one!!!) jeans!

>>
>> When they were youngsters they cried that they didn't want to go to
>> school. They clearly enjoyed staying home and playing instead. How
>> cruel of me to *force* them to go, I made them terribly unhappy by
>> doing so.
>
> Playing AND going to school are both important.

Of course, supervised playing is very important - playing in traffic is
deadly.

>>
>> When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
>> able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what they
>> *wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!
>
> Partying AND sleeping are both important.

OK, you're not seriously advocating teenagers smoking, drinking or doing
drugs here are you???!! Well, given your stance on "risk taking", maybe you
are, but you sure did undermine any further arguments you may have had!!!

>>
>> It's such a shame that they turned out to be such happy, healthy
>> (never been sick a day in their lives, never had a cavity), productive
>> adults with happy families and good careers. I just didn't have
>> anybody to tell me how wrong I was to make them so unhappy!
>
> I am not advocating letting the cat do whatever she wants, whenever she
> wants (as I
> mentioned in the paragraph below). I am advocating something more like
> "yes, you can
> have candy sometimes; you can play sometimes; you can party sometimes."
>
>>
>>> Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
>>> After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't
>>> let her out because she was still recovering.
>>>
>>> Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside.
>>>
>>> Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat.
>>>
>>> I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats.
>>> I don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right
>>> and a wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is
>>> possible to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about
>>> the whole indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.
>>
>> Yes I disagree, simply because I would never knowingly put someone I
>> love in harm's way. when you love someone you do what's *best* for
>> them, not simply what makes them happy. I wouldn't let my toddlers
>> *or* my cats play in traffic!
>
> Sometimes what's best for us IS doing what makes us happy. That's actually
> true a lot,
> IMO.

And sometimes what makes us happy makes us dead - sorry I'd rather be alive
and unhappy!

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 08:57 PM

<SNIP>
> >> When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
> >> able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what they
> >> *wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!
> >
> > Partying AND sleeping are both important.
>
> OK, you're not seriously advocating teenagers smoking, drinking or doing
> drugs here are you???!! Well, given your stance on "risk taking", maybe
you
> are, but you sure did undermine any further arguments you may have had!!!
<SNIP>

"I'm not advocating the use of drugs, sex or violence... But, I must say,
it's always worked for me" - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Hmmm... What's that in my cheek?
--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
>

ceb

April 5th 05, 08:58 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making
> sure they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing
> toys down on the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually
> putting forth physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get
> the exercise they need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.

Do you know me at all? You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions here.
I spend a lot of time with my animals, nearly all my free time in fact,
and I play and snuggle a lot with Rosalie. I have helped her over the
last year to become a lap cat, from her beginnings as a feral cat. I
scoop out the litterbox several times a day, not that that's anyone's
business.

Rosalie's favorite toy is an interactive toy, and we play with it daily.

>
> Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and
> close doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to
> get off their lazy.... sorry.
>

I have no strong objection to cat doors and the people I know who have
them aren't lazy. What's wrong with making something more convenient?
When I fence in my yard, I may get a pet door. I haven't decided yet.

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie
& Rosalie the calico

jmc

April 5th 05, 09:02 PM

Suddenly, without warning, Ashley exclaimed (4/5/2005 2:57 AM):
> "Meghan Noecker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:53:31 +1200, "Ashley"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats do
>>>not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside
>>>your
>>>borders is different.
>>>
>>
>>Is New Zealand a bubble?
>>
>
>
> Ecologically? Yes. Read the links I posted.
>
>
>
>>Honestly, there are areas in the US that are just as remote as where
>>you live, and I wouldn't let my cat outside there either.
>
>
> And they have US ecology.
>
>
Well, the ecology differs depending on where in the US you are.
Certainly, some areas have predators that are a danger to cats, but some
do not.

FWIW, here's my 2 cents worth.

I am an American. My first cat, Mouse, was indoors when I lived in town
in Wyoming. When we moved to a house way out in the country, on a
dirt road, she was indoor/outdoor. There were no large predators to
threaten her, so it was safe enough. When we moved back East, she
became an indoor cat again.

Now I have Meep. For all 8 years, and through 3 different countries
(US, England and Australia) she has been an indoor cat. In England, the
country of her birth, it is because I again live in a town, with loads
of roads around. I've seen dead cats (and tons of dead wildlife) on the
roads in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors' cats are outdoor, as
that's the British culture. My other consideration with Meep is that
she's not exactly the bravest cat on the block, and would probably be
beat up by any passing moggie. She does go outside in the fenced back
yard, when we are home.

In Australia, she also was 'outside only under supervision', but for
different reasons. Being a British cat, I wasn't sure she had the
survival skills for our hot desert environment. We had extremely deadly
snakes around (though I know cats are rarely bitten by snakes). We also
had a bearded dragon that was bigger than Meep, and which I've heard
fighting with a neighbor's feisty cat - no idea who started the fights
(I suspect it was the cat), or who won. So, that was environment and
potentially dangerous predators.

All this blathering just means, I don't think it's a black-and-white
issue. It's a matter of environment. If we are blessed with a healthy
Meep when we move back to Wyoming, on our 50+ acres, she can go outside
whenever she wants in the summer, but will (probably by choice) be an
indoor cat during the bitter winters.

I do find it interesting that here in England, cats are outdoor animals,
and dogs are indoor animals. In the US, cats are indoor animals and
dogs are outdoor animals. A gross generalization, of course, but just
one of many small differences in our cultures.

jmc

Ashley

April 5th 05, 09:04 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...

> Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at
> them because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are
> healthier and heartier than ever before in our history.

Not the studies themselves, but plenty of cites :-). It is just a
hypothesis, but it is a widely held one, and from what I've read appears to
be growing stronger.

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2003/october15/research.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_595740.htm

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/25/1030053009689.html?oneclick=true

http://www.everyoung-gh.com/library/health-dirt.html

Ashley

April 5th 05, 09:09 PM

"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>>
>>
>> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
>>
>
>
> The best of both worlds
> A purpose built outdoor enclosure could provide your cat with the sights
> and
> smells of the outside world and give his life some variety without
> exposing
> him to many of the outdoor risks.
>
>
> This is EXACTLY what I would love to do if I had a house.
>
> I think that article has a lot of valid points, especially for the
> audience
> it is written for (UK).
> But one thing they're missing is that many of the behavior problems they
> posit are the result of not going outside are actually problems due to the
> cat not getting enough mental and physical stimulation. That's the owner's
> fault. A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners actually
> take
> the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. It has little to do with
> going
> outside per se and everything to do with being bored to tears.

I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely realistic
here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their cats that they
put that time and energy in? No value judgements, just realism. Given that
cats are mostly seen as pets, not as primary emotional interests,
recommendations on how to care for them should be aimed at what the majority
will actually do, rather than what those who are most emotionally attached
to their cats will do, with or without recommendations from anyone.

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 09:11 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making
>> sure they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing
>> toys down on the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually
>> putting forth physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get
>> the exercise they need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.
>
> Do you know me at all? You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions here.
> I spend a lot of time with my animals, nearly all my free time in fact,
> and I play and snuggle a lot with Rosalie. I have helped her over the
> last year to become a lap cat, from her beginnings as a feral cat. I
> scoop out the litterbox several times a day, not that that's anyone's
> business.
>
> Rosalie's favorite toy is an interactive toy, and we play with it daily.

Actually, no, I don't know you at all - I don't even know what you've
posted, historically, in this group. I wasn't even claiming that you didn't
do all of that, I was simply responding to the question you've asked (which
you snipped so I'll repost it here): "How does it take extra time and effort
to keep them inside? I found that having an inside-only cat was much easier
than letting the cat out, opening and closing doors, keeping an eye on
things, etc etc." That was my answer, not my ascertation that that's what
you do or don't do. However, the phrase, "Me thinks you doth protest to
much" *does* come to mind! ;>

>>
>> Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and
>> close doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to
>> get off their lazy.... sorry.
>>
>
> I have no strong objection to cat doors and the people I know who have
> them aren't lazy. What's wrong with making something more convenient?
> When I fence in my yard, I may get a pet door. I haven't decided yet.

Again, you asked, I answered! You have my permission to ignore all the good
advice here and do whatever you like, I'm just really sorry that it may be
that your cats will suffer for it, that's all!

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Zoe & Queenie
> & Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 09:15 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> enlightened us with...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
>>>
>>
>>
>> The best of both worlds
>> A purpose built outdoor enclosure could provide your cat with the sights
>> and
>> smells of the outside world and give his life some variety without
>> exposing
>> him to many of the outdoor risks.
>>
>>
>> This is EXACTLY what I would love to do if I had a house.
>>
>> I think that article has a lot of valid points, especially for the
>> audience
>> it is written for (UK).
>> But one thing they're missing is that many of the behavior problems they
>> posit are the result of not going outside are actually problems due to
>> the
>> cat not getting enough mental and physical stimulation. That's the
>> owner's
>> fault. A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners actually
>> take
>> the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. It has little to do with
>> going
>> outside per se and everything to do with being bored to tears.
>
> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
> cats that they put that time and energy in?

And there it is folks.

Hugs,

CatNipped

ceb

April 5th 05, 09:16 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in
:

> "ceb" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
>>> able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what
>>> they *wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!
>>
>> Partying AND sleeping are both important.
>
> OK, you're not seriously advocating teenagers smoking, drinking or
> doing drugs here are you???!!

Yes, yes, that is what I'm advocating. How well you know me.

Well, given your stance on "risk
> taking", maybe you are, but you sure did undermine any further
> arguments you may have had!!!

I'm not such a risk-taker, I'm really pretty much a homebody who loves
routine. My cat is a homebody too -- she just wants to go outside
sometimes -- for the love of god, is that so wrong????

>
>> Sometimes what's best for us IS doing what makes us happy. That's
>> actually true a lot,
>> IMO.
>
> And sometimes what makes us happy makes us dead - sorry I'd rather be
> alive and unhappy!

That's your choice. It isn't mine.

And actually, so far, nothing that has made me happy has killed me. Go
figure.

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie
& Rosalie the calico

ceb

April 5th 05, 09:20 PM

jmc > wrote in news:3bg976F6jie24U1
@individual.net:

> All this blathering just means, I don't think it's a black-and-white
> issue.

I agree.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 09:24 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message

>> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
>> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
>> cats that they put that time and energy in?
>
> And there it is folks.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped

See Mary, just stand back and let them do all the work for you!

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 10:08 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
> >> What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree.
> >> That doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.
> >
> > No, of course it doesn't. What makes a person irresponsible,
> > thick-headed and lazy is when sometging has been shown to them to
> > cause harm to someone they love, but they do it anyway because it's
> > convenient.
> >
>
> Ok, I'm done now. I don't wish to argue or discuss with people who aren't
> respectful to me or others.

And just how is what I wrote disrespectful of you? Did I even accuse you of
this? Exactly what do you disagree with? Do you disagree that what makes a
person irresponsible, thick-headed and lazy is when something has been shown
to them to cause harm to someone they love, but they do it anyway because
it's convenient??? Pray tell me why you disagree with the statement, I'd
like to know.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 5th 05, 10:10 PM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in
> :
>
> > "ceb" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>> When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
> >>> able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what
> >>> they *wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!
> >>
> >> Partying AND sleeping are both important.
> >
> > OK, you're not seriously advocating teenagers smoking, drinking or
> > doing drugs here are you???!!
>
> Yes, yes, that is what I'm advocating. How well you know me.

If I am wrong, please explain to me what you mean by partying - I was very
clear to write, "smoking, drinking and doing drugs", so when you followed
that with "Partying AND sleeping are both important" how else was I to take
it?

> Well, given your stance on "risk
> > taking", maybe you are, but you sure did undermine any further
> > arguments you may have had!!!
>
> I'm not such a risk-taker, I'm really pretty much a homebody who loves
> routine. My cat is a homebody too -- she just wants to go outside
> sometimes -- for the love of god, is that so wrong????
>
> >
> >> Sometimes what's best for us IS doing what makes us happy. That's
> >> actually true a lot,
> >> IMO.
> >
> > And sometimes what makes us happy makes us dead - sorry I'd rather be
> > alive and unhappy!
>
> That's your choice. It isn't mine.
>
> And actually, so far, nothing that has made me happy has killed me. Go
> figure.

Ah, but it *HAS* killed many a cat!

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Catherine
> & Zoe & Queenie
> & Rosalie the calico

Ashley

April 5th 05, 10:22 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message

>> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
>> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
>> cats that they put that time and energy in?
>
> And there it is folks.

Here what is, CatNipped. Do you think I consider myself to be a
run-of-the-mill cat owner? Are you making wild assumptions again?

Alison

April 5th 05, 10:44 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
> Have you bothered reading any
> of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other
threads?
> .>>.

On this group? I doubt it:) The indoor/outdoor arguments been done
to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on
that subject. Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance
view about it.
Alison

>

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 10:47 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Have you bothered reading any
> > of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other
> threads?
> > .>>.
>
> On this group? I doubt it:) The indoor/outdoor arguments been done
> to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on
> that subject. Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance
> view about it.
> Alison
>

I'd agree. I post & read on both groups, as do many others here. I've yet
to see an indoor / outdoor debate on RPCA. On the other hand, I love a good
argument....
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
>
> >
>
>

Alison

April 5th 05, 10:47 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ashley" > wrote
>
> > I am sure your cats are not miserable -
> > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably
content. But
> > again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control,
I would
> > not choose that life for my cats.
> >
>
> Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
> That says it all.>>.

How old are your and Catnips cats now ?
Alison

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:02 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Have you bothered reading any
>> of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other
> threads?
>> .>>.
>
> On this group? I doubt it:) The indoor/outdoor arguments been done
> to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on
> that subject.

Yeah, I know. I had vowed never to get involved in it again. Call it a
moment of weakness ... ;-)

Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance
> view about it.
> Alison
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>

Ashley

April 5th 05, 11:02 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ashley" > wrote
>>
>> > I am sure your cats are not miserable -
>> > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably
> content. But
>> > again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control,
> I would
>> > not choose that life for my cats.
>> >
>>
>> Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
>> That says it all.>>.
>
> How old are your and Catnips cats now ?

She's making wild assumptions again. One of the reasons I killfiled her -
Mary doesn't do rational debate.

Alison

April 5th 05, 11:03 PM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
>> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
indoor cat
> due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
cars,
> environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
and
> psychological disorders. >>>

Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
from it.
Alison

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 11:07 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kaeli" > wrote in message

> > But one thing they're missing is that many of the behavior problems they
> > posit are the result of not going outside are actually problems due to
the
> > cat not getting enough mental and physical stimulation. That's the
owner's
> > fault.

But let's be entirely realistic
> here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their cats that
they
> put that time and energy in?

Thus the actual *truth* behind the reasoning for allowing free-roaming owned
cats is *laziness* and *indifference*. All this "free spirit" nonsense is
really a red herring to draw attention away from your laziness and
indifference!

Thank you very much for confirming my suspicions that you simply don't care
as much about your cat nor are you as emotionally attached to your cat as a
*family member* as indoor/protected outdoor proponents are with our cats.

Given that
> cats are mostly seen as pets, not as primary emotional interests,

And again you *confirm* your indifference and lack of a strong emotional
bond with your cat! Thus is very easy for you to swing open your door
without a second thought or care and minimize the risks. Sure the risks are
minimum when you don't really care all that much about the cat!

> recommendations on how to care for them should be aimed at what the
> majority
will actually do, rather than what those who are most emotionally attached
> to their cats will do

My recommendations for people who are not emotionally attached to their cats
is that they shouldn't have cats or any pet! The emotional attachment is
the *whole* joy of having a cat!

In view of your posting history in this group of which is more criticism and
heckling rather than any useful information, and now this 'masterpiece',
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you're a *troll* - and a
cold-hearted asshole.

The funniest part of all this is that you *exposed* yourself! ROTFLMAO!

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 11:18 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message

> Here what is, CatNipped. Do you think I consider myself to be a
> run-of-the-mill cat owner?

I sure as hell consider you a run-of-the-mill cat owner! In fact I consider
you even *worse* than run-of-the-mill cat owner -- I have >40 years
experience dealing with cat owners - my suspicions about owners are almost
*always* correct.

Steve G

April 5th 05, 11:18 PM

Mary wrote:
> "Steve G" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
(...)
> >
> > But letting your indoor cat become grossly obese is OK - or do you
only
> > count outdoor dangers in your tirade? Or any dangers *you* expose
your
> > cats to don't count?
>
> There are many less dangers inside than outside, Steve.

Correct.

> You have resorted
> to the lamest argument of all. And my fat cat was fat when she got
here.
> We're working on it.

Indeed? Working on it pretty slowly. Let's see if you can actually
succeed in this most simple aspects of cat care.

The people who let their cats outside generally do so because they
think the risks are worth the benefits for the cat. They may be wrong.
They may be right. (Of course you do not even accept the owners have
this line of thought at all, your stock line being such owners 'think
of the cat as an object' and do not care if the cat dies).

If your cat is obese, there are no conceivable benefits - and for an
indoor cat, no excuses. *You* have total control over the cat's diet.

So, what we have is a(nother) example of you wanting to hold others to
levels of care that you yourself are apparently incapable of.

Another example is your various past comments that people who
accidentally let their indoor cats out are stupid, and that it is
trivially easy to keep an indoor cat inside. And yet - guess what? -
you yourself have accidentally let your cat outside.

Once again, you freely dish out the accusations that others are
incapable of providing good care, or 'view the cat as an object', while
you provide examples of the very bad care for which you berate others.

(...)
>
> Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
> arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
> winning the argument?

'Victories' you award to yourself are rarely worth much.

(...)
> you want to endanger the lives
> of the animals you are charged to protect

I 'want to', eh? Like the way you're endangering your obese cat?

> about it. I have no problem with people who disagree with me.
> I have a real problem with people who endanger animals. You
> cannot argue that it is safe outside ANYWHERE for unattended
> cats.

I can and do argue that it is acceptably safe in some areas. Others
agree. Others disagree. Available statistics on risk to outdoor cats
provide some basis on which to make judgements (I've posted cites in
previous threads), as does the direct experience a cat owner has of
their own local environment.

Of course, the alternative is to use your mode of 'discussion', being
invective directed at anyone who disagrees with you - which at times
seems to be half of the newsgroup.

Steve.

Phil P.

April 5th 05, 11:23 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
> indoor cat
> > due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
> cars,
> > environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
> and
> > psychological disorders. >>>
>
> Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
> from it.
> Alison

Only if they have lazy, stupid indifferent owners who have no imagination or
creativity.

Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little or
no control.

P

Mathew Kagis

April 5th 05, 11:30 PM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...

<SNIP>
>
> Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little or
> no control.
>
> P

So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to
controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are stupid?
My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic 'memory'
which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than most
(if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as you
think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions,
cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago.
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Alison

April 5th 05, 11:35 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
.net...
>> If they had cites, why don't they provide them? Without cites, it's
> anecdotal. That's not an assumption.>..>>

You could always e.mail them and ask.This works both ways , I see
lots of references on indoor cat websites to studies about the avergae
age of outdoor cats and the numbers killed etc but rarely names of
the actual studies. Also studies are hard to get hold off though you
can down load more recent ones but they're expensive.
Alison

Alison

April 5th 05, 11:43 PM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> >
> It's easy to post vet or other 'authorative' sources to support
either
> viewpoint. This is because there is no universal agreement as to
> whether cats should have outdoor access or not. In particular in
places
> outside the US, more (most) vets will suggest cats have outdoor
access.
> Not to mention the views of posters in this group are not
necessarily
> representative of views in the US as a whole.
>
> Steve.>>>

True:) Even cat behaviour studies can contradict each other. It's
not a simple issue.
Alison

>

Elle

April 5th 05, 11:58 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote
> "Phil P." > wrote in
> > Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little
or
> > no control.
> >
> > P
>
> So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to
> controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are
stupid?

I know many cats are not intelligent enough to avoid being bit, upon
encountering another animal, and so avoid a painful abscess, potentially
weeks of fever, a trip to the vet, and having to take anti-biotics.

Does the advantage of freedom outweigh this major and life-threatening
inconvenience?

I learned the hard way. It does not, in my estimation.

> My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic
'memory'
> which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than most
> (if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as you
> think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions,
> cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago.

Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors
cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your cats
out, I do recommend at least reading up on the treatment of abscesses,
though. And owners of outdoor cats should try to imagine whether they could
handle a ghastly death at the hands of predators such as big dogs, coyotes
(in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by
witnessing this.

Alison

April 6th 05, 12:03 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
> She's making wild assumptions again. One of the reasons I killfiled
her -
> Mary doesn't do rational debate. >>

I know, believe me I know <G>
Alison

>
>

Steve G

April 6th 05, 12:05 AM

Alison wrote:
(...)
>
> True:)

Be careful when agreeing with me, you might get labeled as part of a
self-congratulatory circle or somesuch.

> Even cat behaviour studies can contradict each other. It's
> not a simple issue.

Regarding risk and the indoor-outdoor issue, if interested, I recommend
the recent studies of Rochlitz, based in the UK (2003; Vet Rec 153:
549-553 and 585-588).

One thing I would be interested in is a survey in the US, giving the
age distribution of owned cats. I do not know if such exists - not
found it, if it does.

Steve.

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 12:10 AM

> >
> > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to
> > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are
> stupid?
>
> I know many cats are not intelligent enough to avoid being bit, upon
> encountering another animal, and so avoid a painful abscess, potentially
> weeks of fever, a trip to the vet, and having to take anti-biotics.
>
> Does the advantage of freedom outweigh this major and life-threatening
> inconvenience?
>
> I learned the hard way. It does not, in my estimation.
>
> > My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic
> 'memory'
> > which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than
most
> > (if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as
you
> > think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions,
> > cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago.
>
> Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors
> cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your
cats
> out, I do recommend at least reading up on the treatment of abscesses,
> though. And owners of outdoor cats should try to imagine whether they
could
> handle a ghastly death at the hands of predators such as big dogs, coyotes
> (in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by
> witnessing this.

Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong (like
many assuptions made by people in this debate). I know all about the
treatment of abcesses & I spend a little time at the grave of my (RB) kitten
La-Feet every day. He's buried beside my front flower bed. And, yes...
After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one
morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if
they want to. I held La-Feet in my arms as the vet gave him the 'final'
injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone.
I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what
I've been through in my life... You will be wrong.
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Elle

April 6th 05, 12:21 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote
Elle wrote
> > Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors
> > cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your
> cats
> > out, I do recommend at least reading up on the treatment of abscesses,
> > though. And owners of outdoor cats should try to imagine whether they
> could
> > handle a ghastly death at the hands of predators such as big dogs,
coyotes
> > (in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by
> > witnessing this.
>
> Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong
(like
> many assuptions made by people in this debate). I know all about the
> treatment of abcesses & I spend a little time at the grave of my (RB)
kitten
> La-Feet every day. He's buried beside my front flower bed. And, yes...
> After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one
> morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if
> they want to. I held La-Feet in my arms as the vet gave him the 'final'
> injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone.
> I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me,

Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I did
say "Maybe... " above.

If you're not breaking the law in your area by letting your cats roam
outside, then I guess you've won this "debate," insofar as you are in fact
free to choose, and do so choose, to knowingly put your cats' health at
higher risk, and no one can stop this. Folks roll the dice all the time.
You. Me. Everyone. That's life.

I hope you don't mind people posting their bad experiences with letting cats
outdoors, though, so lurkers can see all sides.

Good luck.

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 12:28 AM

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...

<SNIP>
>
> Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I did
> say "Maybe... " above.
>
> If you're not breaking the law in your area by letting your cats roam
> outside, then I guess you've won this "debate," insofar as you are in fact
> free to choose, and do so choose, to knowingly put your cats' health at
> higher risk, and no one can stop this. Folks roll the dice all the time.
> You. Me. Everyone. That's life.
>
> I hope you don't mind people posting their bad experiences with letting
cats
> outdoors, though, so lurkers can see all sides.
>
> Good luck.

You are excused, & forgive my tone, this debate has been getting a little
heated (as a good debate should). Too bad it's degenerated into name
calling in some cases. I have no problem with any perspective. However,
like religous extremists, political extremists & ANY other extremist.
NOTHING will get a rise out of me faster than someone saying 'I am the ONLY
way.'

By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current
hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my
cats has been altered by that experience.

Cheers
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Mary

April 6th 05, 12:31 AM

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 12:39 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message

> By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current
> hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my
> cats has been altered by that experience.

How comforting. Perhaps after a few more cats have fatal injuries you'll
alter your behavior a little more. How many more cats will need to die
before you alter your behavior enough to keep them in a safe environment?

Elle

April 6th 05, 12:39 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
> > Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I
did
> > say "Maybe... " above.
> >
> > If you're not breaking the law in your area by letting your cats roam
> > outside, then I guess you've won this "debate," insofar as you are in
fact
> > free to choose, and do so choose, to knowingly put your cats' health at
> > higher risk, and no one can stop this. Folks roll the dice all the time.
> > You. Me. Everyone. That's life.
> >
> > I hope you don't mind people posting their bad experiences with letting
> cats
> > outdoors, though, so lurkers can see all sides.
> >
> > Good luck.
>
> You are excused,

I didn't ask to be excused and have no idea why you think I perhaps should
seek to be excused.

> & forgive my tone, this debate has been getting a little
> heated (as a good debate should).

I agree to disagree that good debates require a little heat.

> Too bad it's degenerated into name
> calling in some cases. I have no problem with any perspective. However,
> like religous extremists, political extremists & ANY other extremist.
> NOTHING will get a rise out of me faster than someone saying 'I am the
ONLY
> way.'

IMO, your statements aren't much different, Matt. One tries to weigh the
amount of reason on both sides, and yours seems to be simply a sense that
the cats are happier as outdoor roamers.

One is entitled to having such a sense, but I for one believe the statistics
that indicate indoor cats live longer and quite happily. I believe United
States animal protection agencies overwhelmingly take this view.

> By the way, La-Feet's fatal injury happened at night & my current
> hoolikittens don't get to go out after dark, so, yes my behavior with my
> cats has been altered by that experience.

Oh.

I continue to recognize that while you may take more risks with your cats,
no doubt others take other risks with their lives and loved ones that you
would judge irrational. No big deal. We try to put out the facts and let
people make up their own minds, within the law. I presume you are conforming
with the law in your area anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 12:40 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:2kE4e.1125$VF5.32@edtnps89...
>
>
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
> <SNIP>
> >
> > Outdoor cats lead a *more* stressful life over which owners have little
or
> > no control.
> >
> > P
>
> So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil?

No, its a responsibility and obligation issue for me. Apparently, you don't
know the difference.

Do you feel the need to
> controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are
stupid?

I feel I have the responsibility and obligation to provide a safe enviorment
for my cats. I don't think cats are stupid - quite the opposite. I think
many cats are smarter than their owners.

I also think many outdoor cats have lazy and/or stupid and/or indifferent
owners who have little or no desrire, imagination, or creativity and cannot
or will not provide enough environment enrichment for their cats to keep
them happy, interested, stimulated and safely indoors and/or with access to
a protected outdoor enclosure.

Cheryl

April 6th 05, 12:43 AM

On Tue 05 Apr 2005 06:18:54p, Steve G wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1112739534.555899.205120
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com):

>> Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
>> arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
>> winning the argument?
>
> 'Victories' you award to yourself are rarely worth much.

The post above yours was one of the most ironic I've read in months.
Oi.

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 12:52 AM

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...

<SNIP>
>
> I continue to recognize that while you may take more risks with your cats,
> no doubt others take other risks with their lives and loved ones that you
> would judge irrational. No big deal. We try to put out the facts and let
> people make up their own minds, within the law. I presume you are
conforming
> with the law in your area anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt.
>
>
OK, first excuse me for excusing you. Yes I'm on the cats that get outdoor
time are happier side of this debate... I just don't see how a few hundred
years of modern domestication can overwhelm thousands of years of genetic
programming.... It simply seems illogical to me.

As to risk taking... I agree. From the moment you are born, you are at
risk... Same for your pets. I could reduce the risks in my own life by
ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the
occasional pizza.... and on and on. I choose to balance quality of life
with safety concerns. NOTE: I spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, so my 'safety'
meter is very sensitive.

Both my cats were adopted from a shelter, they had a very thourough
screening process, including a home visit. The local SPCA saw no problem
with my desire to let the cats outside, they did spend some time making sure
I understood the risks (which I did). And time making sure I was willing and
able to handle extra medical costs related to those risks (which I was).
The rep from the SPCA deemed me a 'perfect' candidate for adoption... So,
I'm comfortable with my choices & my kittens's lifestyle.

And, yes, I am conforming to all local pet laws.

cheers
--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Cheryl

April 6th 05, 12:56 AM

On Tue 05 Apr 2005 02:56:14p, kaeli wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
):

> If a parent lets their 3 year old out and the kid gets hit by a
> car, wouldn't you blame the parents as well as the driver, even
> if you did still feel a bit sorry for all involved?

You really need to *think* before making this kind of comment, even
if it's in the heat of the "battle". It happens, and it isn't always
the parents, or the drivers fault. Trust me, some of us know this.

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 01:02 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message

<SNIP>
>
> I feel I have the responsibility and obligation to provide a safe
enviorment
> for my cats. I don't think cats are stupid - quite the opposite. I think
> many cats are smarter than their owners.

Then we agree on that point.
>
> I also think many outdoor cats have lazy and/or stupid and/or indifferent
> owners who have little or no desrire, imagination, or creativity and
cannot
> or will not provide enough environment enrichment for their cats to keep
> them happy, interested, stimulated and safely indoors and/or with access
to
> a protected outdoor enclosure.

I won't reapeat myself, as I have addressed these issues in previous
posts... YES I play with my cats, YES we have interactive toys, YES I spent
$150 on a cat tower for their enjoyment. YES they are the first thought in
my head when I wake up & the last thought when I go to bed... They get fed &
watered before me, they get medical attention before me, they get the best
quality food available & I'm currently reasearching switctching them to a
hommade diet as all the evidence I have found points to better feline health
with a raw food diet.

You have the right to voice your opinion Phil, we both live in
quasi-democracies (I assume you are in the USA, I'm in Canada), so we get to
have opinions. BUT, understand the choice to let cats roam outside, isn't
necissarily one of indifference & sloth. For some of us, it comes from the
same place of love that makes you keep yours inside.

> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 01:13 AM

"Alex" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Peter Neville, *British* world renowned feline behaviorist:
> >
> > "The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors.
> > Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and
playfulness,
> > and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group
> > hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts
> the
> > benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its
> > self-determining and independent behaviour.
> >
> > Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House,
> > Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK (Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline
Medicine,
> > Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England)
> > BSAVA; and Manual of Feline Behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary
> > Association, Kingsley House. Church Lane. Shurdington, Cheltenham.
> > Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ
> >
> >
> > Dr. Nicholas Dodman, *British*, and the Director of the Behavior Clinic
at
> > Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known
> > specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, states
> >
> > "Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors. The average lifespan of an
indoor
> > cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to
> > reach double digits. I personally have lost three cats prematurely to
> > trauma over the past fifteen years. Two were struck by vehicles on a
> fairly
> > quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog.
> Because
> > of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and
hard
> > about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where
> > they're safest" (Excerpted from the Cat Who Cried for Help).
> >
> >
> >
> > "The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous
> > plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling
> > reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to
> keep
> > declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves
or
> > escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer
and
> > healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets. They
> don't
> > endanger birds and other wildlife or bring home fleas or dead animals,
nor
> > do they need frequent visits to the veterinarian to treat injuries
> sustained
> > in scraps with rival cats.
> >
> > Screened-in porches or specially constructed window enclosures allow
> > indoor-only cats to sniff the fresh air, peruse the goings-on outside,
and
> > bask in the sun. By regularly changing the indoor environment, you can
> help
> > keep your cat challenged-; strategically situated empty cardboard boxes
or
> > plain brown shopping bags (minus the handles) can provide an old space
> with
> > new interest." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health
> Center:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and
> would
> > have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying
> > relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live
> > longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars,
> being
> > injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus
> and
> > feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and
> > possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors'
> > properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly
> there
> > are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors."
> >
> > Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Animal Behaviour Clinic,
> > Malvern Vie 3 144, *Australia*. Excerpted from Cat Behavior and
Training.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Many cats born as strays and adopted as housecats adjust remarkably
> > quickly. Indeed, many stray cats that are adopted remain indoors
> permanently
> > without protest. Cats that live in temperate climates may naturally
> restrict
> > their outdoor activity during cold winter months. These individuals may
> > adapt more readily to being kept indoors permanently.
> >
> > Provide a wide variety of toys that are attractive to your cat (not just
> to
> > you). Frequently play with your young cat so that it is less prone to
seek
> > amusement elsewhere. It is particularly important to provide your cat
with
> > additional outlets by playing with it and engaging in interactive
> diversions
> > you both will enjoy. Have your cat neutered at an appropriate age as
> > recommended by your veterinarian.
> >
> > Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental
> > stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The
risk
> of
> > injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with
> > other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to
> your
> > cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor
existence.
> > Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a
safe
> > home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc,DACVB, Diplomate, American
> College
> > of Veterinary Behaviorists Director of Behavior Services, VCA South
Shore
> > Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA Clin. Asst. Prof., Tufts University
> School
> > of Veterinary Medicine.
>
> Replace 'cat' with 'kids' - makes perfect sense.

To whom?

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 01:14 AM

"Alex" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?

Do your kids clean their assholes with their tongues?

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 01:18 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Alex" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mary" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?
>
>
> Do your kids clean their assholes with their tongues?

No, they are not genetically designed to. Cats, on the other hand, are
Nocturnal, Meat eating Predators. 'Fancy Feast' may be yummy, but it does
NOT replace the taste of warm blood from a fresh kill.... Which felines have
been enjoying for THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!
>
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 01:25 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:GGF4e.1566$VF5.591@edtnps89...

BUT, understand the choice to let cats roam outside, isn't
> necissarily one of indifference & sloth. For some of us, it comes from
the
> same place of love that makes you keep yours inside.

....perhaps the same place, just not the same depth.

Love is also relative. On a 'love scale' of 1-10, a '10' to you might be a
3 or 4 to me. That's doesn't mean I love my cats more than you love your
cats. Its means exactly what Ashley said - some people are more
"emotionally attached" to their cats than others.

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 01:32 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message

<SNIP>

> ...perhaps the same place, just not the same depth.
>
> Love is also relative. On a 'love scale' of 1-10, a '10' to you might be
a
> 3 or 4 to me. That's doesn't mean I love my cats more than you love your
> cats. Its means exactly what Ashley said - some people are more
> "emotionally attached" to their cats than others.
>
Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment.
There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional
attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens), in my
mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment.
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 01:35 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:wVF4e.1635$VF5.1474@edtnps89...
>
>
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "Alex" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mary" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?
> >
> >
> > Do your kids clean their assholes with their tongues?
>
> No, they are not genetically designed to. Cats, on the other hand, are

No ****! But it doesn't matter because the original premise was ridiculous
to begin with.

> Nocturnal, Meat eating Predators. 'Fancy Feast' may be yummy, but it does
> NOT replace the taste of warm blood from a fresh kill.... Which felines
have
> been enjoying for THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!

....and today that delicious warm blood could be seasoned with rat poisoning.
Cars, trucks, buses, and rat poison didn't exist thousands of years ago.

If you feel so strongly about proving your cats with the taste of warm
blood, raise mice. At least you'll know your cats won't be eating poisoned
mice.

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:38 AM

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:40 AM

"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> >
> > Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
Megan,
> > Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long
time,
> > since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a
guestimate
> > of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
> > something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a
cat",
>
> *snickers*
> Love the typo. :)
>
> > or
> > "Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
Ten,
> > twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?
> >
>
> Even if there were 30, it wouldn't really prove much.
> Considering there are millions of pet cats out there and all.
>

I was trying to think of a way to answer CN, but I can't really
recall many posts here about cats injured outside. Then again,
if yours was and you had read this group for even five
minutes, would YOU post it here? ;)

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:42 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote

> As for myself, well during all those endless corporate touchy-feely
> personality/team building tests I've come out as a high risk-taker so I
> guess I'm pretty sane then. The difference is I have the intellect to
weigh
> the risks I take, my cats don't.
>

Precisely.

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:51 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote

> I own a cat dancer & several other interactive toys, which I use alot...
As
> the furrballs aren't allowed out at night, I play with them. Muscat is
into
> a fetch thing as well... He'll play with a toy mouse, slowly beating it
back
> to where I am & then wait for me to throw it down the hall.... Very cute.
> Chablis seems less into the interactive toys & often just watches as
Muscat
> & I play. I think it's because she has tasted blood & is FAR more
> interested in a warm tasty rodent than a cold one that tastes like cat
> spit....

How nice for her. Rodents carry disease. I'm lucky my cats don't
actually eat the mice they catch--they just play with them to death.
They catch them IN the house, as we have some sort of mousehole
behind the kitchen cabinets we have not found yet.

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:58 AM

"jmc" > wrote

> Now I have Meep. For all 8 years, and through 3 different countries
> (US, England and Australia) she has been an indoor cat. In England, the
> country of her birth, it is because I again live in a town, with loads
> of roads around. I've seen dead cats (and tons of dead wildlife) on the
> roads in the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors' cats are outdoor, as
> that's the British culture.

This comment supports what I have noticed--that a lot of the
insistance of the British who participate here that cats be
allowed to roam has nothing to do with considerations of
safety, and is not rational but deeply ingrained cultural
practive left over from a much safer time. (Meaning a
time when there were no cars.)

[...]

>
>
> I do find it interesting that here in England, cats are outdoor animals,
> and dogs are indoor animals. In the US, cats are indoor animals and
> dogs are outdoor animals. A gross generalization, of course, but just
> one of many small differences in our cultures.
>
>

Hmm, that is interesting. I have English-born aunts that keep
their dogs in, but I have never asked what they think of those
who keep dogs outside. Thanks for bringing the cultural
element into the discussion. I think it is stronger than many
imagine--and I think it is dangerous because it is based upon
the way things used to be much more than the way things
are.

Mary

April 6th 05, 01:59 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "ceb" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> >> Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making
> >> sure they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing
> >> toys down on the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually
> >> putting forth physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get
> >> the exercise they need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.
> >
> > Do you know me at all? You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions
here.
> > I spend a lot of time with my animals, nearly all my free time in fact,
> > and I play and snuggle a lot with Rosalie. I have helped her over the
> > last year to become a lap cat, from her beginnings as a feral cat. I
> > scoop out the litterbox several times a day, not that that's anyone's
> > business.
> >
> > Rosalie's favorite toy is an interactive toy, and we play with it daily.
>
> Actually, no, I don't know you at all - I don't even know what you've
> posted, historically, in this group. I wasn't even claiming that you
didn't
> do all of that, I was simply responding to the question you've asked
(which
> you snipped so I'll repost it here): "How does it take extra time and
effort
> to keep them inside? I found that having an inside-only cat was much
easier
> than letting the cat out, opening and closing doors, keeping an eye on
> things, etc etc." That was my answer, not my ascertation that that's what
> you do or don't do. However, the phrase, "Me thinks you doth protest to
> much" *does* come to mind! ;>
>
> >>
> >> Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and
> >> close doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to
> >> get off their lazy.... sorry.
> >>
> >
> > I have no strong objection to cat doors and the people I know who have
> > them aren't lazy. What's wrong with making something more convenient?
> > When I fence in my yard, I may get a pet door. I haven't decided yet.
>
> Again, you asked, I answered! You have my permission to ignore all the
good
> advice here and do whatever you like, I'm just really sorry that it may be
> that your cats will suffer for it, that's all!
>

It really is that simple. lol!

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 02:00 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment.
> There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional
> attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens), in
my
> mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment.

Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your 'maximum
emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing to
gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love
your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much as
your capable of loving them.

Mary

April 6th 05, 02:03 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "kaeli" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> In article >,
> >> enlightened us with...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.fabcats.org/inorout.html
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> The best of both worlds
> >> A purpose built outdoor enclosure could provide your cat with the
sights
> >> and
> >> smells of the outside world and give his life some variety without
> >> exposing
> >> him to many of the outdoor risks.
> >>
> >>
> >> This is EXACTLY what I would love to do if I had a house.
> >>
> >> I think that article has a lot of valid points, especially for the
> >> audience
> >> it is written for (UK).
> >> But one thing they're missing is that many of the behavior problems
they
> >> posit are the result of not going outside are actually problems due to
> >> the
> >> cat not getting enough mental and physical stimulation. That's the
> >> owner's
> >> fault. A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
actually
> >> take
> >> the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. It has little to do with
> >> going
> >> outside per se and everything to do with being bored to tears.
> >
> > I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
> > realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
> > cats that they put that time and energy in?
>
> And there it is folks.
>

Yes indeed. You have amazing patience. Thanks for all your effort
in this thread, it has definitely helped shed some light on the true motives
of many people who are most adamant about allowing their cats
outside unaccompanied.

Mary

April 6th 05, 02:04 AM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...
> jmc > wrote in news:3bg976F6jie24U1
> @individual.net:
>
> > All this blathering just means, I don't think it's a black-and-white
> > issue.
>
> I agree.
>

The fact remains that you live in a busy US urban area and you allow
your cats to roam. Amazing. Talk about "tough love."

Mary

April 6th 05, 02:05 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
>
> >> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
> >> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
> >> cats that they put that time and energy in?
> >
> > And there it is folks.
> >
> > Hugs,
> >
> > CatNipped
>
> See Mary, just stand back and let them do all the work for you!
>

Honestly, I am in awe. You are ditzy like a fox, girl! :)

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 02:07 AM

"ceb" > wrote in message
...

>
> Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out.

Was your cat raised as an outdoor cat?

Elle

April 6th 05, 02:11 AM

"Phil P." > wrote
> Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your
'maximum
> emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing
to
> gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love
> your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much
as
> your capable of loving them.

lol... ouch... ;-)

Usenet!

Mary

April 6th 05, 02:12 AM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ashley" > wrote
> >
> > > I am sure your cats are not miserable -
> > > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably
> content. But
> > > again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control,
> I would
> > > not choose that life for my cats.
> > >
> >
> > Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
> > That says it all.>>.
>
> How old are your and Catnips cats now ?
> Alison
>

I meant with regard to their lifespans, you hairsplitting
weasel. :) Our cats will live to be older.

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:48 AM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Ashley" > wrote in message
>
>
> >> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
> >> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their
> >> cats that they put that time and energy in?
> >
> > And there it is folks.
>
> Here what is, CatNipped. Do you think I consider myself to be a
> run-of-the-mill cat owner? Are you making wild assumptions again?

It's called "projection", dear, look it up. Psychiatrists use the term to
describe the human tendency to project your own feelings, thoughts, and
opinions onto others which you are clearly doing (well, maybe not so clear
to you, but to most people it is). In cruder language, "It's the ones who
have hidden behind the bedroom door who are the first to look behind the
bedroom door."

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 03:06 AM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ashley" > wrote
> >
> > > I am sure your cats are not miserable -
> > > if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably
> content. But
> > > again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control,
> I would
> > > not choose that life for my cats.
> > >
> >
> > Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
> > That says it all.>>.
>
> How old are your and Catnips cats now ?
> Alison

Bandit is 15, Demi is 6, Jessie is 5 and Sammy is 1. Bandit, having never
been sick or injured (except for recently by her vet!!!) is as spry and
playful as Sammy.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 03:07 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:EHD4e.1112$VF5.831@edtnps89...
>
>
>
> "Alison" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ashley" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Have you bothered reading any
> > > of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other
> > threads?
> > > .>>.
> >
> > On this group? I doubt it:) The indoor/outdoor arguments been done
> > to death here, if you do a Google you'll find some long threads on
> > that subject. Rec pets cats anecdotes subscribers have a more balance
> > view about it.
> > Alison
> >
>
> I'd agree. I post & read on both groups, as do many others here. I've yet
> to see an indoor / outdoor debate on RPCA. On the other hand, I love a
good
> argument....

That's only because after the third post in the thread you'd start getting
recipes! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> > --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
> >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 03:11 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> > Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment.
> > There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional
> > attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens),
in
> my
> > mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment.
>
> Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your
'maximum
> emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing
to
> gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love
> your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much
as
> your capable of loving them.
>

Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
close.
> --
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 03:48 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:wzH4e.2292$VF5.1683@edtnps89...

> Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
> close.

Oh no! Not the killfile! Anything but the killfile! LOL!

About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them
killed.

Alison

April 6th 05, 03:49 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> >
> How do you demonstrate that an animal which can't speak has
> psychological problem has it because it's an indoor cat and not some
> other factor? >>.>>You simply can't; it's very subjective.>>

I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and vets who
have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are more
likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self mutilation
and chewing fabric.
This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement by Dr
Sandra McCune
"Specific problems associated with confinement include boredom,
aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural inhibition,
withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success , anorexia ,
weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and self
mutilation(Blackshaw 1985b, hart &hart 1985, Mellen 1992. Mcclune
1992, Holmes 1993, Smith et al , 1994 van den Bos and de Cock Buning
1992). Although behaviour problems are seen in pet cats with acces to
out doors ( Bonnie Beaver 1980, Neville , 1990,1991,92) , they are
more commonly seen in cats restricted to indoors indicating that even
relatively enriched confines of an appartment are limiting to some
cats ( mertens & scahr 1988).
Alison

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 03:52 AM

You're done... Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy
Feast... Of course something produced by a large for profit only corporation
COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them in
harms way.

I truly pity people like you, a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated
one.

BYE

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> news:wzH4e.2292$VF5.1683@edtnps89...
>
> > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
> > close.
>
> Oh no! Not the killfile! Anything but the killfile! LOL!
>
> About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them
> killed.
>
>
>

Ashley

April 6th 05, 03:58 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Ashley" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> >> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely
>> >> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
>> >> their
>> >> cats that they put that time and energy in?
>> >
>> > And there it is folks.
>>
>> Here what is, CatNipped. Do you think I consider myself to be a
>> run-of-the-mill cat owner? Are you making wild assumptions again?
>
> It's called "projection", dear, look it up.

No, dear, it's not actually (see I can do condescenion too). I'm fully aware
what projection is - this was not it. Just today I was having a chat with a
lawyer and we got on to the subjects of pets and loss (we were discussing
aspects of a pet business). He was describing losing their first dog, which
had to be put down some years ago and I said something like "It's
gut-wrenching, isn't it". Yes, he said, but when you have children, that is
one of the reasons for having pets, firstly to teach them about caring for
and loving something, and then to teach them about life and loss.

You and I and everyone else on this newsgroup are more attatched to our cats
than most cat owners - I mean, why the hell else do we spend so much time
here discussing the darling little sods?! But most pet owners, especially
where the pet is primarily for the children, do not regard the pet as their
primary, or secondary, or even in the top-10 emotional attachments. They
reserve those places for people. They care for their pets and they enjoy
their company and try to give them pleasant lives, but the pets are not
central to their lives.

Not being able to recognise that this is the way the world is is what
psychiatrists call denial. There's another term for you.

Alison

April 6th 05, 04:06 AM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> > Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g.
making sure
> they get enough exercise to stay healthy *NOT* just throwing toys
down on
> the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually putting
forth
> physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get the exercise
they
> need. >>

Why do you assume that people with indoor cats do this and people who
let their cats out don't. If people are out at work 10 to 12 hours a
day and sleep 8 hours and then cook their dinner, eat , look after
their children , shower etc there must be thousands of indoor cats
that don't get played with for hours each day.

<<Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.>>>

Only twice? euw!
Again , why do you assume that people who let their cats out don't
have litter trays? A lot of us do!
Alison

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:08 AM

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:11 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Alison" > wrote:
>
> > tailchasing
>
> Hodge loves chasing his tail. It's a game, and he treats it as such. If
> this is what a knowledgeable veterinarian defines as a "problem," well,
> I guess eating, drinking, and eliminating could be "problems," too.
>

One of my childhood cats did this in the back drive so often
and for so long that she drew a crowd of neighborhood kids.
It was hilarious. Cheeks does it every now and then.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:13 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:yVE4e.1330$VF5.963@edtnps89...
>
>
>
>
> > >
> > > So, is this a controll issue for you, Phil? Do you feel the need to
> > > controll EVERY aspect of your cats life, because you think they are
> > stupid?
> >
> > I know many cats are not intelligent enough to avoid being bit, upon
> > encountering another animal, and so avoid a painful abscess, potentially
> > weeks of fever, a trip to the vet, and having to take anti-biotics.
> >
> > Does the advantage of freedom outweigh this major and life-threatening
> > inconvenience?
> >
> > I learned the hard way. It does not, in my estimation.
> >
> > > My cats are highly intelligent & have thousands of years of genetic
> > 'memory'
> > > which guieds their actions. In my book that makes them smarter than
> most
> > > (if not all) humans... If cats were in need of supervision as much as
> you
> > > think, there would be NO feral colonies ANYWHERE & wild cats (lions,
> > > cheetas, cougars et al...) would have died off long ago.
> >
> > Maybe one has to go through something terrible happening to an "outdoors
> > cat" before one appreciates the drawbacks. If you're going to let your
> cats
> > out, I do recommend at least reading up on the treatment of abscesses,
> > though. And owners of outdoor cats should try to imagine whether they
> could
> > handle a ghastly death at the hands of predators such as big dogs,
coyotes
> > (in my area), etc. I think many cat owners would be traumatized by
> > witnessing this.
>
> Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong
(like
> many assuptions made by people in this debate). I know all about the
> treatment of abcesses & I spend a little time at the grave of my (RB)
kitten
> La-Feet every day. He's buried beside my front flower bed. And, yes...
> After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one
> morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if
> they want to. I held La-Feet in my arms as the vet gave him the 'final'
> injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone.
> I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what
> I've been through in my life... You will be wrong.

You're right. But just knowing this little piece of your life I think much
less of you. You are an irresponsible person who should never be allowed
to have a cat.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:18 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:W9I4e.2542$VF5.124@edtnps89...
> You're done... Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy
> Feast...

Let's have the breakdown of your cat food, Mathew.

>Of course something produced by a large for profit only corporation
> COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them
in
> harms way.

Now this is interesting. Processed food is inferior to vermin, eh Mathew?
The lengths you will go to to justify your irresponsibility.

>
> I truly pity people like you, a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated
> one.
>
> BYE
>

Pfft. Phil has forgotten more than you will ever know about
how to care for cats, and helps countless ones while you are
playing roulette with the lives of the two you are too ****ing
lame to take care of.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:20 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> news:wzH4e.2292$VF5.1683@edtnps89...
>
> > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
> > close.
>
> Oh no! Not the killfile! Anything but the killfile! LOL!
>
> About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get them
> killed.
>

Can you believe he let a KITTEN outside unattended and then
was surprised to find it dying with a broken back? And STILL
allows his cats outside? Someone needs to take those animals
to a good home.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:24 AM

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:26 AM

"Elle" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> "Phil P." > wrote
> > Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your
> 'maximum
> > emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not
willing
> to
> > gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't
love
> > your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as
much
> as
> > your capable of loving them.
>
> lol... ouch... ;-)
>
> Usenet!
>
>

He's right, though. It is the only way to explain why someone would
claim to love his cats so deeply (as Kagis has) and still allow them
out unattended even though he has already had a KITTEN suffer
a broken back because of it. He has to be 1/4 inch deep.

Alison

April 6th 05, 04:28 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Alison" > wrote:
>
> > tailchasing
>
> Hodge loves chasing his tail. It's a game, and he treats it as such.
If
> this is what a knowledgeable veterinarian defines as a "problem,"
well,
> I guess eating, drinking, and eliminating could be "problems,"
too.>>>

I would take that to mean excessive tail chasing ! :) BTW how do you
know it's a game to Hodge if he can't speak and tell us? <g> The
definitions were taken from the studies mentioned not solely Dr
McCunes definitions.
Alison

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:29 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> > Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment.
> > There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional
> > attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens),
in
> my
> > mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment.
>
> Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your
'maximum
> emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not willing
to
> gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't love
> your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as much
as
> your capable of loving them.
>
>

Exactly what I was thinking, and why he cannot conceive of loving anything
so much that he could not bear for it to come to harm. Very sad.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:29 AM

<equalizer> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:14:46 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Alex" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Mary" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >> Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?
> >
> >
> >Do your kids clean their assholes with their tongues?
> >
>

I keep wondering how my name got in here, as I did not say
any of these things.
>
> LOL!

Alison

April 6th 05, 04:32 AM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> Regarding risk and the indoor-outdoor issue, if interested, I
recommend
> the recent studies of Rochlitz, based in the UK (2003; Vet Rec 153:
> 549-553 and 585-588).
>
> One thing I would be interested in is a survey in the US, giving the
> age distribution of owned cats. I do not know if such exists - not
> found it, if it does.
>
> Steve.
>
Thanks , I've seen a summary of this on a website. I've seen lots of
figures and stats quoted from websites but not any actual surveys or
studies about US figures.
Alison:)

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:33 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:wVF4e.1635$VF5.1474@edtnps89...
>
>
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "Alex" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mary" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?
> >
> >
> > Do your kids clean their assholes with their tongues?
>
> No, they are not genetically designed to. Cats, on the other hand, are
> Nocturnal, Meat eating Predators. 'Fancy Feast' may be yummy, but it does
> NOT replace the taste of warm blood from a fresh kill.... Which felines
have
> been enjoying for THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!
> >

You're a nut. You're one of those All Natural and Organic
halfwit lunatics. Gonnococcus has been munching on gonads
for THOUSANDS OF YEARS too. Should we fail to interfere
with that?

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:35 AM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve G" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> >
> > Regarding risk and the indoor-outdoor issue, if interested, I
> recommend
> > the recent studies of Rochlitz, based in the UK (2003; Vet Rec 153:
> > 549-553 and 585-588).
> >
> > One thing I would be interested in is a survey in the US, giving the
> > age distribution of owned cats. I do not know if such exists - not
> > found it, if it does.
> >
> > Steve.
> >
> Thanks , I've seen a summary of this on a website. I've seen lots of
> figures and stats quoted from websites but not any actual surveys or
> studies about US figures.
> Alison:)
>
>

Why don't you two get together and raise the money to launch
a study to see whether it is true that the sun rises every day.

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 04:35 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:W9I4e.2542$VF5.124@edtnps89...
> You're done...

Oh no! Now I've really gone and did it!

Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy
> Feast... Of course something produced by a large for profit only
corporation
> COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put them
in
> harms way.

Oh no! You're an au naturel cult fanatic, too! Next you'll be telling me
you don't believe in neutering because you want your cats to have a sex
life, too! ROTFL!

>
> I truly pity people like you,

If I wanted your pity - I'd buy it. I pity your cats - they're the ones
who *really* need pity.

a closed mind & (even worse) an uneducated
> one.

Shucks! Maybe if I finished college I could have been a bar room manager
like you! ROTFLMAO!

Your education didn't give you the sense to learn from your mistakes. One
cat has already died a painful death as a result of your utter stupidity and
yet you place your other cats in *same* danger **AGAIN**. Do you know what
people who make the same mistakes over and over are called? ****ING IDIOTS
and LOSERS.

> BYE

Come again when you can't stay so long.

>
> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> > "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> > news:wzH4e.2292$VF5.1683@edtnps89...
> >
> > > Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
> > > close.
> >
> > Oh no! Not the killfile! Anything but the killfile! LOL!
> >
> > About the only thing I could learn about cats from you is how to get
them
> > killed.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:36 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:wzH4e.2292$VF5.1683@edtnps89...
>
>
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> > > Not really getting the difference between love & emotional attachment.
> > > There are lots of people & their pets who I'm fond of... Emotional
> > > attachment on that level is moderate. Love (as I feel for my kittens),
> in
> > my
> > > mind & heart, denotes MAXIMUM emotional attachment.
> >
> > Let me put it another way using your terms. What you consider your
> 'maximum
> > emotional attachment' - I might see as my 'minumum' since I'm not
willing
> to
> > gamble unnecessarily with my cats' lives. That doesn't mean you don't
love
> > your cats as much as I love my cats. I'm sure you love your cats as
much
> as
> > your capable of loving them.
> >
>
> Cheap emotional shots will get you killfiled...You sir are dangerously
> close.
> > --

heh.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:38 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "ceb" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> >
> > Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out.
>
> Was your cat raised as an outdoor cat?
>
>

Phil, all my cats were strays but they don't do this. Are
you asking ceb is she put them out as kittens?

Alison

April 6th 05, 04:40 AM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112758025.0896bb3e6ffd8b916ed0d9f979d101ef@t eranews...
>
> >
> > I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and vets
who
> > have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are more
> > likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self
mutilation
> > and chewing fabric.
> > This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement by
Dr
> > Sandra McCune
> > "Specific problems associated with confinement include boredom,
> > aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural
inhibition,
> > withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success , anorexia
,
> > weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and self
> > mutilation
>
> Pfft. She's a Brit. It's the moronic kneejerk culture she grew
> up in that shaped her "findings."
>

Not sure who you're refering to here , me or Dr McClune?
Alison

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:42 AM

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue 05 Apr 2005 02:56:14p, kaeli wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> ):
>
> > If a parent lets their 3 year old out and the kid gets hit by a
> > car, wouldn't you blame the parents as well as the driver, even
> > if you did still feel a bit sorry for all involved?
>
> You really need to *think* before making this kind of comment, even
> if it's in the heat of the "battle". It happens, and it isn't always
> the parents, or the drivers fault. Trust me, some of us know this.
>
> --

Is this ALL you have to add to this debate? A comment
designed to spotlight you and your tragedy? Others have
had loved ones killed in accidents too. Just as there are
accidents that are not the fault of the driver or the parents,
there are accidents that are the fault of one or both. I
thought Kaeli's comment raised a good point.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:42 AM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Ashley" > wrote:
>
> > "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> > .net...
> >
> >
> > > If they had cites, why don't they provide them? Without cites, it's
> > > anecdotal. That's not an assumption.
> >
> > Oh yes it is.
>
> Oh, anecdotal statements with no evidence to back them up is not
> anecdotal, then? LOL. That's pretty funny. I like your sense of humour.
> :0
>

Oh wow, you found evidence that she has one?

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:44 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:ixF4e.1522$VF5.1431@edtnps89...
>
>
> "Elle" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
> <SNIP>
> >
> > I continue to recognize that while you may take more risks with your
cats,
> > no doubt others take other risks with their lives and loved ones that
you
> > would judge irrational. No big deal. We try to put out the facts and let
> > people make up their own minds, within the law. I presume you are
> conforming
> > with the law in your area anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> >
> OK, first excuse me for excusing you. Yes I'm on the cats that get
outdoor
> time are happier side of this debate... I just don't see how a few hundred
> years of modern domestication can overwhelm thousands of years of genetic
> programming.... It simply seems illogical to me.
>
> As to risk taking... I agree. From the moment you are born, you are at
> risk... Same for your pets. I could reduce the risks in my own life by
> ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the
> occasional pizza.... and on and on. I choose to balance quality of life
> with safety concerns. NOTE: I spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, so my 'safety'
> meter is very sensitive.
>
> Both my cats were adopted from a shelter, they had a very thourough
> screening process, including a home visit. The local SPCA saw no problem
> with my desire to let the cats outside, they did spend some time making
sure
> I understood the risks (which I did). And time making sure I was willing
and
> able to handle extra medical costs related to those risks (which I was).
> The rep from the SPCA deemed me a 'perfect' candidate for adoption... So,
> I'm comfortable with my choices & my kittens's lifestyle.
>
> And, yes, I am conforming to all local pet laws.
>
> cheers
> --

Cheers to your poor cats. You are the one with the forebrain.
If they could gauge their risks they might not want to go outside.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:46 AM

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue 05 Apr 2005 06:18:54p, Steve G wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1112739534.555899.205120
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com):
>
> >> Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
> >> arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
> >> winning the argument?
> >
> > 'Victories' you award to yourself are rarely worth much.
>
> The post above yours was one of the most ironic I've read in months.
> Oi.
>

He has the wit you lack but you both can't argue your way
out of anything. Above all he did was snip the part of the
post that demonstrated that he was wrong. Typical lame
Steve but to you it must seem like genius. Oi, indeed. :)

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:48 AM

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote
> > "Elle" > wrote
> > > Excuse me, Matt, but speaking of assumptions and intelligent debate, I
> did
> > > say "Maybe... " above.
> > >
> > > If you're not breaking the law in your area by letting your cats roam
> > > outside, then I guess you've won this "debate," insofar as you are in
> fact
> > > free to choose, and do so choose, to knowingly put your cats' health
at
> > > higher risk, and no one can stop this. Folks roll the dice all the
time.
> > > You. Me. Everyone. That's life.
> > >
> > > I hope you don't mind people posting their bad experiences with
letting
> > cats
> > > outdoors, though, so lurkers can see all sides.
> > >
> > > Good luck.
> >
> > You are excused,
>
> I didn't ask to be excused and have no idea why you think I perhaps should
> seek to be excused.
>
> > & forgive my tone, this debate has been getting a little
> > heated (as a good debate should).
>
> I agree to disagree that good debates require a little heat.
>
> > Too bad it's degenerated into name
> > calling in some cases. I have no problem with any perspective. However,
> > like religous extremists, political extremists & ANY other extremist.
> > NOTHING will get a rise out of me faster than someone saying 'I am the
> ONLY
> > way.'
>
> IMO, your statements aren't much different, Matt. One tries to weigh the
> amount of reason on both sides, and yours seems to be simply a sense that
> the cats are happier as outdoor roamers.
>

That's it, and then there is the thing he will not admit, which is that
it is just more convenient for him.

Mary

April 6th 05, 04:51 AM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Alison wrote:
> (...)
> >
> > True:)
>
> Be careful when agreeing with me, you might get labeled as part of a
> self-congratulatory circle or somesuch.
>

She's already there. That ship has sailed.

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 04:55 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message

And, yes...
> After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one
> morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if
> they want to.

Your cat suffered a horribly painful death a result of your stupidity and
poor judgment and you're *still* willing to risk the *same* painful death
for your *other* cats? Doesn't the fact that your cat was KILLED tell you
that it just might not be as safe for free-roaming cats in your area as you
thought it was? Or are you normally not that inquisitive?

Here's what you should do bright and early tomorrow morning: Put your other
cats in their carriers and take them to your vet and ask your vet to give
them to one his clients with an IQ in double digits. When he asks you why
you're giving up your cats, tell him because you're too ****ING STUPID to be
entrusted with a cat's life. You're a clear and present danger to cats and
should be on the DNA list of every shelter in you area - if not *country*.

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 05:05 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message

I could reduce the risks in my own life by
> ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the
> occasional pizza....

Wow! Those are sure serious risks! Weren't you afraid of breaking a nail
while you were rock climbing?

Ashley

April 6th 05, 05:08 AM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve G" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>>
>> Regarding risk and the indoor-outdoor issue, if interested, I
> recommend
>> the recent studies of Rochlitz, based in the UK (2003; Vet Rec 153:
>> 549-553 and 585-588).
>>
>> One thing I would be interested in is a survey in the US, giving the
>> age distribution of owned cats. I do not know if such exists - not
>> found it, if it does.
>>
>> Steve.
>>
> Thanks , I've seen a summary of this on a website. I've seen lots of
> figures and stats quoted from websites but not any actual surveys or
> studies about US figures.
> Alison:)

I'd be really interested to know this, too, as I think the inclusion of
feral cats in the "outdoor" part of the usual comparison gives highly
skewed, and inaccurate, results.

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:10 AM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mary wrote:
> > "Steve G" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> (...)
> > >
> > > But letting your indoor cat become grossly obese is OK - or do you
> only
> > > count outdoor dangers in your tirade? Or any dangers *you* expose
> your
> > > cats to don't count?
> >
> > There are many less dangers inside than outside, Steve.
>
> Correct.
>
> > You have resorted
> > to the lamest argument of all. And my fat cat was fat when she got
> here.
> > We're working on it.
>
> Indeed? Working on it pretty slowly. Let's see if you can actually
> succeed in this most simple aspects of cat care.

It's not always simple. She has gland problems. I swear it!

>
> The people who let their cats outside generally do so because they
> think the risks are worth the benefits for the cat. They may be wrong.
> They may be right. (Of course you do not even accept the owners have
> this line of thought at all, your stock line being such owners 'think
> of the cat as an object' and do not care if the cat dies).

Whether they are wrong or right they are endangering animals that
depend on them to keep them safe from things they do not understand--
such as cars.
>
> If your cat is obese, there are no conceivable benefits - and for an
> indoor cat, no excuses. *You* have total control over the cat's diet.
>

She was not fat when we got her. She had lost a good deal of
weight then was diagnosed with hyperthyroid. (Yes, hyPER.)
Once her metabolism was corrected with treatment, it slowed.
This has all been covered. Please try to keep up.

> So, what we have is a(nother) example of you wanting to hold others to
> levels of care that you yourself are apparently incapable of.
>

What was the first? And this of course, is an example of no such
thing, as explained above. Can't you do better than resorting to
making false statements as though they are true? Lame, lame, lame.

> Another example is your various past comments that people who
> accidentally let their indoor cats out are stupid, and that it is
> trivially easy to keep an indoor cat inside. And yet - guess what? -
> you yourself have accidentally let your cat outside.

I don't recall making any such statement. I recall someone
coming here and saying they just could not keep the cat in,
and I did suggest that this was stupid. I was not talking about
a one-time in four years event, as you know.

>
> Once again, you freely dish out the accusations that others are
> incapable of providing good care, or 'view the cat as an object', while
> you provide examples of the very bad care for which you berate others.
>

Nonsense. Give me an example of the bad care I give my cats.

> (...)
> >
> > Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
> > arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
> > winning the argument?
>
> 'Victories' you award to yourself are rarely worth much.

Whether or not you win an argument is not subjective. It is
an objective measure, logic being the tool. When you resort to
the same sort of nonsense Alison resorts to--hairsplitting,
tossing out red herrings, and simply attemptijng to discredit
your opponent--instead of advancing a valid argument that
successfully refutes the point, you lose the argument. It is
simple. The more you resort to cheap sophistry the worse you
look.

>
> (...)
> > you want to endanger the lives
> > of the animals you are charged to protect
>
> I 'want to', eh? Like the way you're endangering your obese cat?
>

As you know, she was fat when we got her, so this is not a valid
point. Another bull**** tactic, another last resort of an inferior
intellect.

>
> > about it. I have no problem with people who disagree with me.
> > I have a real problem with people who endanger animals. You
> > cannot argue that it is safe outside ANYWHERE for unattended
> > cats.
>
> I can and do argue that it is acceptably safe in some areas.

Then I argue that you define "acceptably safe" as "containing
the possibility that the animal will be hit and killed by a car."
Because that can happen anywhere. Leaving alone the many
other things that happen. You live in Chapel Hill, for God's
sake, and the traffic there is awful. You know what will
happen one day.

Others
> agree. Others disagree. Available statistics on risk to outdoor cats
> provide some basis on which to make judgements (I've posted cites in
> previous threads), as does the direct experience a cat owner has of
> their own local environment.
>
> Of course, the alternative is to use your mode of 'discussion', being
> invective directed at anyone who disagrees with you - which at times
> seems to be half of the newsgroup.
>

Which is beside the point. The point being that cats are unsafe outside.

On the topic of invective, I happen to think that anyone who knowingly
endangers their pets' life is a scumbag piece of **** who is a waste of
air. Particularly when they do so because of a knee-jerk "be free
wild thing" ingrained cultural remnant of the sick Victorian culture
that shaped the culture of their upbringing. Particularly when the
animals are left out under the guise of believing that it is better for
them, when it is actually more convenient for, say, people like
Skip the Wonder Moron who not only wanted to let his cat
out unattended so that he could sleep, but wanted people
here to make him feel GOOD about it.

On the topic of invective, I think you are a slimy, smarmy,
petty little dickhead because you are not interested in
what is best for the animals so much as in what
validates what you believe. And for so many other
reasons. Now THIS is a true ad-hominem attack.
If I thought 9/10s of the people who post here were
doing things that harm the animals that are entrusted to
them (or to others) I would hurl invective and argue
against them all. It is called having the courage of my
convictions. Why on earth would you think I care
about how many people here disagree with me?
The fact that it is part of your thinking tells me that
I have been right in the past to see you as a conformist
boob who forms his opinions largely by checking to see
what is the consensus.

And furthermore, **** off.

Ahhhh. I love the invective part.

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:12 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
>
> I could reduce the risks in my own life by
> > ceasing to: Drive, ski, mountainbike, rock climb, drink wine, eat the
> > occasional pizza....
>
> Wow! Those are sure serious risks! Weren't you afraid of breaking a nail
> while you were rock climbing?
>
>

ooooo hoooooo hooooo hooooo, low five Phil

lowwwwww five!

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:18 AM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> news:1112758025.0896bb3e6ffd8b916ed0d9f979d101ef@t eranews...
> >
> > >
> > > I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and vets
> who
> > > have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are more
> > > likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self
> mutilation
> > > and chewing fabric.
> > > This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement by
> Dr
> > > Sandra McCune
> > > "Specific problems associated with confinement include boredom,
> > > aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural
> inhibition,
> > > withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success , anorexia
> ,
> > > weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and self
> > > mutilation
> >
> > Pfft. She's a Brit. It's the moronic kneejerk culture she grew
> > up in that shaped her "findings."
> >
>
> Not sure who you're refering to here , me or Dr McClune?
> Alison

McCune. And she is not the first to use her credentials and her
research to validate and justify the preconceptions she had going
into the study. It is one of the least-well-kept secrets in her field.

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:21 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
> news:W9I4e.2542$VF5.124@edtnps89...
> > You're done...
>
>
> Oh no! Now I've really gone and did it!
>
>
>
> Have an angry life... Hope your cats enjoy their Fancy
> > Feast... Of course something produced by a large for profit only
> corporation
> > COULD'NT be bad for your cats!!! Noooo, processed food would not put
them
> in
> > harms way.
>
>
> Oh no! You're an au naturel cult fanatic, too! Next you'll be telling me
> you don't believe in neutering because you want your cats to have a sex
> life, too! ROTFL!
>

I told you! This is the "be free wild thing" stuff I talked about.
It harkens back to the Victorian glorification/demonization of
"Nature" and ties in with the eroticizing of death in 19th-century
British philosophy, literature, and culture in that order. The
wheat-germ crunchers are just an offshoot. :) I don't just
pull this stuff out of my ass, you know. 8)

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 05:45 AM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112758826.d23ee0856c6e13bd8174f355d0264678@t eranews...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> > "ceb" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out.
> >
> > Was your cat raised as an outdoor cat?
> >
> >
>
> Phil, all my cats were strays but they don't do this. Are
> you asking ceb is she put them out as kittens?

She's clearly an outdoor proponent. Her cat cries to go out because she
raised the cat to be an indoor/outdoor cat and continues to allow the cat
outdoors. The cat cries to go out because she knows she'll be let out if
she cries. Ceb simply reinforces the behavior.

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 05:57 AM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message

I love a good
> argument....

It looks it! You tuck tail and run as soon as someone bruises your fragile
ego.

Mary

April 6th 05, 06:03 AM

"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
>
> I love a good
> > argument....
>
> It looks it! You tuck tail and run as soon as someone bruises your
fragile
> ego.
>
>
He does. Steve G. on the other hand turns to the "best defense is
a good offense" and changes the focus to his opponents shortcomings,
real or fictitious. Anything but address the point, because he cannot
refute it.

[email protected]

April 6th 05, 06:41 AM

>What is hard to understand about less cat waste in the cat box
>and less time playing with the cats?

Nothing, except that with two indoor/outdoor cats, I still scoop the
litterbox two times everyday (they run inside to use the box), wake up
at 6 am every morning to open their window, collect them every evening
to close everything up, and play and cuddle with them for an hour or
two every evening to settle them down for bed. And among the people I
know, I spend far more energy on my cats, and adjust my schedule more
dramatically for them, than anybody does for their indoor cats, who
basically just sit around all day waiting for their owners to finally
come home. My husband or I always come home in the early evening/late
afternoon to put the cats in for the night and we do a lot of schedule
juggling to make sure that happens. It would be a lot easier for us if
they were indoor-only cats and that's what we would do if we wanted
things more low maintenance for us.

Ducking out now ....

Mary

April 6th 05, 06:54 AM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >What is hard to understand about less cat waste in the cat box
> >and less time playing with the cats?
>
> Nothing, except that with two indoor/outdoor cats, I still scoop the
> litterbox two times everyday (they run inside to use the box), wake up
> at 6 am every morning to open their window, collect them every evening
> to close everything up, and play and cuddle with them for an hour or
> two every evening to settle them down for bed. And among the people I
> know, I spend far more energy on my cats, and adjust my schedule more
> dramatically for them, than anybody does for their indoor cats, who
> basically just sit around all day waiting for their owners to finally
> come home. My husband or I always come home in the early evening/late
> afternoon to put the cats in for the night and we do a lot of schedule
> juggling to make sure that happens. It would be a lot easier for us if
> they were indoor-only cats and that's what we would do if we wanted
> things more low maintenance for us.
>
> Ducking out now ....
>

What is the environment like where you live? Do you really feel they
are safe while they are outdoors all day unattended?

Ashley

April 6th 05, 07:36 AM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >What is hard to understand about less cat waste in the cat box
>>and less time playing with the cats?
>
> Nothing, except that with two indoor/outdoor cats, I still scoop the
> litterbox two times everyday (they run inside to use the box), wake up
> at 6 am every morning to open their window, collect them every evening
> to close everything up, and play and cuddle with them for an hour or
> two every evening to settle them down for bed. And among the people I
> know, I spend far more energy on my cats, and adjust my schedule more
> dramatically for them, than anybody does for their indoor cats, who
> basically just sit around all day waiting for their owners to finally
> come home. My husband or I always come home in the early evening/late
> afternoon to put the cats in for the night and we do a lot of schedule
> juggling to make sure that happens. It would be a lot easier for us if
> they were indoor-only cats and that's what we would do if we wanted
> things more low maintenance for us.
>
> Ducking out now ....

Cat, meet pigeons ;-)

[email protected]

April 6th 05, 09:59 AM

Back to the UK. I had a neighbour who kept their cat inside (very rare
thing over here). We all lived in a small cul de sac and the risks
were very minimal. The cat used to sit looking longingly out of the
window all day, mouthing miaows at us, as its owners were at work all
day. When they came home they still didnt let the cat out. The cat
got fatter and fatter and apparrently through grooming too much, ended
up with a nasty operation to remove furballs, and a scar all the way
down its stomach. This, to me, was cruel too. Maybe if someone lives
in a place where it is not safe for cats to go outside, they should not
get a cat, but get a goldfish instead.

Mary

April 6th 05, 10:20 AM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Back to the UK. I had a neighbour who kept their cat inside (very rare
> thing over here). We all lived in a small cul de sac and the risks
> were very minimal. The cat used to sit looking longingly out of the
> window all day, mouthing miaows at us, as its owners were at work all
> day. When they came home they still didnt let the cat out. The cat
> got fatter and fatter and apparrently through grooming too much, ended
> up with a nasty operation to remove furballs, and a scar all the way
> down its stomach. This, to me, was cruel too. Maybe if someone lives
> in a place where it is not safe for cats to go outside, they should not
> get a cat, but get a goldfish instead.
>

lol!

Meghan Noecker

April 6th 05, 11:54 AM

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:58:02 GMT, "Mathew Kagis" >
wrote:

>No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness' in
>the USA has cranked up several notches about everything!

Well, aside from long lines at the airports and a bit more security at
events, I haven't seen any changes.

Certainly nothing in daily life. Maybe it looks that way on the news,
but really, we just go about our business the same as always.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 6th 05, 12:00 PM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:08:45 +0000 (UTC), ceb >
wrote:

>How does it take extra time and effort to keep them inside? I found that
>having an inside-only cat was much easier than letting the cat out, opening
>and closing doors, keeping an eye on things, etc etc. Not that either
>scenario is terribly hard. I just fail to see how letting the cat out
>sometimes means that I'm expending less time and effort with respect to my
>cat.

Kitty litter.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 6th 05, 12:07 PM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:00:12 -0500, kaeli >
wrote:

>We have very few rural areas safe enough for cats to roam unattended off
>their own property. Many places they are not safe even on their own property
>due to our natural predators (coyotes, bears, etc) and other wildlife

A friend of mine lives out in a rural area. Her neighbor had a sheltie
who was outside in a small fenced yard. The dog was debarked, so they
didn't hear anything unsual. The dog was killed by a coyote less than
10 feet from their back door.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 6th 05, 12:18 PM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:47:42 +0000 (UTC), ceb >
wrote:

(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
:
>
>> If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
>> really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
>> a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
>> accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.
>>
>
>Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
>pets due to an accident.
>

I can be polite and pretend to sympathize. But honestly. Just 3 or 4
months ago, a friend at work lost her 4 year old cat. She was hit by a
car. Duh. That's what happens when you let her out. Her cat would be
alive today if she had kept the cat inside.

>What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
>adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?

Most accidents involving people are caused by the driver, either being
distracted or drunk/drugged. Obviously, in those cases, the pedestrian
is not at fault.

But when I hear about an adult getting killed while trying to crossa
freeway? Come on. What an idiot. Sounds like a candidate for the
Darwin award.

>
>Accidents happen, and we take risks every day. My cat is happier if she
>gets to go outside sometimes. So she and I take that risk. I find it
>shocking that people would then not give me any sympathy if something
>happened to her. I wouldn't treat other people that way.
>

I feel sorry for the cat, and I do feel some sorrow for the person.
But I also feel anger for the person for letting their cat get killed.
They knew the risks, and accepted them. Now they get teh consequences
that go along with those risks.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Meghan Noecker

April 6th 05, 12:26 PM

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:38:15 -0400, "Mary" >
wrote:

>
>Phil, all my cats were strays but they don't do this. Are
>you asking ceb is she put them out as kittens?
>

Jay Jay was an outdoor cat when I got him 6 or 7 weeks ago. He spent
the first evening pawing and crying at the doors. He stopped pawing
and crying in less than a week.

And he spent the first 3 weeks sitting on the bed in the spare room
next to the window. But now, the only time he goes to the door is when
he is greeting me when I get home from work. He then races past me to
get to the bedroom ahead of me.

For a cat who spent 3-4 years outside, it didn't take him long to quit
making an effort to get out. And now he plays and romps around the
house. He loves the cat charmer string as well as my shoelaces. And
the cat tree. And his new best buddy, Chase.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

Alison

April 6th 05, 01:02 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...
>
>> >>
>>
> I'd be really interested to know this, too, as I think the inclusion
of
> feral cats in the "outdoor" part of the usual comparison gives
highly
> skewed, and inaccurate, results.>>.

Yes it would do and I understand there are many feral cats on
Northern America.
Alison

>
>
>

Alison

April 6th 05, 01:05 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Alison" > wrote:
>
> > BTW how do you
> > know it's a game to Hodge if he can't speak and tell us? <g>
>
> By the goofy look on his face. :)
>

Aw, bless , I can just imagine him:)
Alison

Alison

April 6th 05, 01:16 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112761256.e7dcb92a110be8aec438b066433d309d@t eranews...
>
>> > > > I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and
vets
> > who
> > > > have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are
more
> > > > likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self
> > mutilation
> > > > and chewing fabric.
> > > > This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement
by
> > Dr
> > > > Sandra McCune
> > > > "Specific problems associated with confinement include
boredom,
> > > > aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural
> > inhibition,
> > > > withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success ,
anorexia
> > ,
> > > > weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and
self
> > > > mutilation
> > >
> > > Pfft. She's a Brit. It's the moronic kneejerk culture she grew
> > > up in that shaped her "findings."
> > >
> >
> > Not sure who you're refering to here , me or Dr McClune?
> > Alison
>
> McCune. And she is not the first to use her credentials and her
> research to validate and justify the preconceptions she had going
> into the study. It is one of the least-well-kept secrets in her
field.>>>

er it's not just her research hence the references to (Blackshaw
1985b, hart &hart 1985, Mellen 1992. Mcclune1992, Holmes 1993, Smith
et al , 1994 van den Bos and de Cock Buning 1992). Her lecture was
actually on how to improve the life of cats in confinement and
references must be cited when using other people's published research
or studies
Alison

Alison

April 6th 05, 01:24 PM

<equalizer> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:49:20 +0100, "Alison"
> > wrote:
> >
>
>> My cats were exclusively indoors for the first 3 years of their
lives
> before I built their enclosure, and they never exhibited even one of
> those symptoms. I'm a little suspect of any study that views "poor
> reproductive behavior" as a shortcoming also. Clearly that points to
the
> use of non-neutered/spayed cats in the study, which in itself would
> cause any of the symptoms indicated. Of ***COURSE*** an intact
queen/tom
> is going to exhibit "escape behavior", and just about everything
else
> listed. *****DUH******>>>.

That's based on collective research hence the references to the
names. Apparently those are the behaviour problems that can manifest
in cats kept inconfinement . I'm sure your cats are happy and have
never exhibited those behaviour traits just as my cat is happy and has
never been injured, attacked by a dog , run over by a car or picked up
any diseases outside.:)
Alison

Phil P.

April 6th 05, 01:58 PM

"Steve G" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mary wrote:

> > You have resorted
> > to the lamest argument of all. And my fat cat was fat when she got
> here.
> > We're working on it.
>
> Indeed? Working on it pretty slowly.

And that's exactly how she should be working on a weight loss program for an
overweight cat. *Very* slowly. Rapid weight loss in overweight or obese
cats can and does result in hepatic lipidosis a/k/a fatty liver syndrome - a
potentially fatal liver disorder that usually requires enteral nutrition via
a gastrostomy feeding tube to stabilize the cat and reverse the disease.

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:09 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
> indoor cat
>> due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
> cars,
>> environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
> and
>> psychological disorders. >>>
>
> Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
> from it.
> Alison

Oh what a lovely blanket statement - which has *NO* realtionship, however
distant, to the facts!

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:12 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:yVE4e.1330$VF5.963@edtnps89...

> Elle: You are assuming I have'nt had such an experience. you are wrong
> (like
> many assuptions made by people in this debate). I know all about the
> treatment of abcesses & I spend a little time at the grave of my (RB)
> kitten
> La-Feet every day. He's buried beside my front flower bed. And, yes...
> After finding La-Feet with a broken back, in deep shock & barely alive one
> morning last July, I still belive that cats should be allowed outside if
> they want to. I held La-Feet in my arms as the vet gave him the 'final'
> injection. I buried him myself, I spent a week creating his headstone.
> I'm all about intelligent debate, but DO NOT assume to know me, or what
> I've been through in my life... You will be wrong.

Oh my! Now, see, there you just lost me Mathew. I can understand people,
*especially* young people thinking, "Yeah, it happens, but it won't happen
to me." The whole, "I'm immortal" feelings we all have when we are young -
no matter how hard you try to make them see reality they just can't be
persuaded until it happens to them.

I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and
*STILL* putting your cats at risk!

Hugs,

CatNipped

>> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
>
>

ceb

April 6th 05, 02:19 PM

" > wrote in
oups.com:

> It would be a lot easier for us if
> they were indoor-only cats and that's what we would do if we wanted
> things more low maintenance for us.
>

Yes, I agree.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

ceb

April 6th 05, 02:21 PM

(Meghan Noecker) wrote in
:

> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:08:45 +0000 (UTC), ceb >
> wrote:
>
>>How does it take extra time and effort to keep them inside? I found
>>that having an inside-only cat was much easier than letting the cat
>>out, opening and closing doors, keeping an eye on things, etc etc. Not
>>that either scenario is terribly hard. I just fail to see how letting
>>the cat out sometimes means that I'm expending less time and effort
>>with respect to my cat.
>
>
> Kitty litter.
>

Rosalie has a litter box inside. I scoop it multiple times a day. But it
isn't difficult or time-consuming.

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie
& Rosalie the calico

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:22 PM

"Ashley" > wrote in message
...

> No, dear, it's not actually (see I can do condescenion too).

*Very* good <applause>! You *can* learn *something*. It's just too bad
that you only apply what you learn when it's convenient for you.

> I'm fully aware what projection is - this was not it. Just today I was
> having a chat with a lawyer and we got on to the subjects of pets and loss
> (we were discussing aspects of a pet business). He was describing losing
> their first dog, which had to be put down some years ago and I said
> something like "It's gut-wrenching, isn't it". Yes, he said, but when you
> have children, that is one of the reasons for having pets, firstly to
> teach them about caring for and loving something, and then to teach them
> about life and loss.
>
> You and I and everyone else on this newsgroup are more attatched to our
> cats than most cat owners - I mean, why the hell else do we spend so much
> time here discussing the darling little sods?! But most pet owners,
> especially where the pet is primarily for the children, do not regard the
> pet as their primary, or secondary, or even in the top-10 emotional
> attachments. They reserve those places for people. They care for their
> pets and they enjoy their company and try to give them pleasant lives, but
> the pets are not central to their lives.

But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put your cats
in harm's way. You claim to be more emotionally attached to your cats than
most cat owners, but your actions deny your claims.

> Not being able to recognise that this is the way the world is is what
> psychiatrists call denial. There's another term for you.

Ashley, believe me, you *don't* want to play the "I'm smarter than you" game
with me - do yourself a favor and don't go there.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:32 PM

Mathew, perhaps you want to reconsider your "I allow my cats outside because
that's how they evolved" argument.

Humans evolved to live in caves, run away from very large, hungry predators,
and hunt their dinners using pointy sticks. Yet how many humans do you know
who willingly live in caves, run away from large, hungry predators, and hunt
their dinners using pointy sticks. I know *I'M* happier living in my heated
and air-conditioned home and getting my dinner out of the freezer every day.

How a species evolved does *NOT* determine what makes them happy. How a
species evolved *ONLY* determines how their bodies adapted to the dangers in
the environment at the time they were evolving.

Cats evolved in a place where they did not encounter the predators they
encounter in the places to which humans have imported them. Cats evolved in
a time when they did not have to dodge automobiles or avoid man-made
poisonous chemicals. Cats did *NOT* evolve in a manner which helps them
survive in the here and now.

Therefore, neither argument regarding evolution (e.g. that it makes them
happy, or that they have adapted to survive the dangers) holds any water.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:42 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> >
>> How do you demonstrate that an animal which can't speak has
>> psychological problem has it because it's an indoor cat and not some
>> other factor? >>.>>You simply can't; it's very subjective.>>
>
> I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and vets who
> have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are more
> likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self mutilation
> and chewing fabric.
> This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement by Dr
> Sandra McCune
> "Specific problems associated with confinement include boredom,
> aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural inhibition,
> withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success , anorexia ,
> weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and self
> mutilation(Blackshaw 1985b, hart &hart 1985, Mellen 1992. Mcclune
> 1992, Holmes 1993, Smith et al , 1994 van den Bos and de Cock Buning
> 1992). Although behaviour problems are seen in pet cats with acces to
> out doors ( Bonnie Beaver 1980, Neville , 1990,1991,92) , they are
> more commonly seen in cats restricted to indoors indicating that even
> relatively enriched confines of an appartment are limiting to some
> cats ( mertens & scahr 1988).
> Alison

Alison, at the time of these studies, late 80s - early 90s, there was a
*MUCH* different attitude about cats by their owners. And even back then
there were some owners who were *MUCH* more caring of their cats than was
the "norm". I will freely grant that a cat confined to a house with few
toys and very little interaction with humans or other cats might exhibit
behavior problems (*ANY* animal or human would).

We're not talking about that here, we talking about the *BEST* care of cats
by people who *ADORE* cats (or at least profess to adore cats). I've had
many cats over the many years of my life, and *NONE* have exhibited *ANY*
behavior problems while in my care. Of course, every minute that I'm home I
am interacting with my cats in some way (either playing with them or petting
them), and when I'm not home they have (literally) hundreds of toys to play
with and each other to play with.

And when I'm at work? Well, how much do cats really play during the day?
They spend most of their day sleeping, and I would think sleeping in
air-conditioned comfort on a soft bed, with no worries about being snuck up
upon by a predator would be more conducive to happiness.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:45 PM

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 02:48 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
>> I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and
>> *STILL* putting your cats at risk!
>
> It was the cat that suffered.

True, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that
Mathew was also hurt by the loss of his kitten. What I can't understand it
how that hurt did *NOT* translate into his taking more care with the rest of
his cats.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> http://www.slywy.com/

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 03:17 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g.
> making sure
>> they get enough exercise to stay healthy *NOT* just throwing toys
> down on
>> the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually putting
> forth
>> physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get the exercise
> they
>> need. >>
>
> Why do you assume that people with indoor cats do this and people who
> let their cats out don't. If people are out at work 10 to 12 hours a
> day and sleep 8 hours and then cook their dinner, eat , look after
> their children , shower etc there must be thousands of indoor cats
> that don't get played with for hours each day.

The hours that I am at work my cats spend sleeping (I know this because
that's what they do even when I am home sick or on weekends). I would think
that sleeping on a nice soft bed in air-conditioned comfort, unworried about
whether a predator might sneak up on them instead of sleeping under a bush
in the heat or cold with one ear always cocked for danger would be more
conducive to happiness - JMHO!

> <<Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.>>>
>
> Only twice? euw!

That's all you have to scoop when you have one litterbox per cat - for me
that's cleaning eight litterboxes per day (here's the math in case you
didn't follow: 4 cats, 4 litterboxes times twice daily).

Letting your cat outside to eat vermin-infested rodents? euw!

> Again , why do you assume that people who let their cats out don't
> have litter trays? A lot of us do!

But I bet you have to clean them less often, or don't your cats like the
"free and natural" way it feels to poop outside???

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Alison
>
>

kaeli

April 6th 05, 03:46 PM

In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely realistic
> here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their cats that they
> put that time and energy in? No value judgements, just realism. Given that
> cats are mostly seen as pets, not as primary emotional interests,
> recommendations on how to care for them should be aimed at what the majority
> will actually do, rather than what those who are most emotionally attached
> to their cats will do, with or without recommendations from anyone.
>

Also a very valid point, and one of the reasons I always advise people to
have more than one cat. At least they entertain each other.

My cats are far less dependent on me than my Mom's cat is on her. And it
really shows.

--
--
~kaeli~
Can you be a closet claustrophobic?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Alison

April 6th 05, 04:20 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "Alison" > wrote:
>
> > That's based on collective research hence the references to the
> > names. Apparently those are the behaviour problems that can
manifest
> > in cats kept inconfinemen
>
> The point equalizer was making is that unneutered animals of course
are
> going to display "problem" behaviours when confined, which makes
these
> studies more than a wee bit suspect.
>
> Those poor tailchasing beasts!
>

My point is that it doesn't specify here that unneteured cats were
used in all those studies , so a person conducting study of
unneutered cats kept confined say for breeding purposes perhaps
would only be interested in the results of the breeding and maybe
would not record behaviour problems such as escaping or mutilation.
Those behaviour traits are *collective * results of different studies
..
You asked for cites of just one study and I have given you
refernces to several . If you want to dismiss them so easily it's up
to you . I'd appreciate if someone here could reciprocate by
producing any studies and cites about US indoor/outdoor pet cat
fatalities and the age at death.etc
Alison:)

Alison

April 6th 05, 05:07 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
>> We're not talking about that here, we talking about the *BEST* care
of cats
> by people who *ADORE* cats (or at least profess to adore cats). >>>

um, we talking about indoor cats , we're talking about behaviour
problems that indoor cats can suffer from that are rarely seen in
indoor /outdoor cats. Does the knowledge of the owner and the care
commitment make a difference , yes it can make a difference but you
can't guarantee you can make every confined cat happy.

>> I've had
> many cats over the many years of my life, and *NONE* have exhibited
*ANY*
> behavior problems while in my care. Of course, every minute that
I'm home I
> am interacting with my cats in some way (either playing with them or
petting
> them), and when I'm not home they have (literally) hundreds of toys
to play
> with and each other to play with.>>>

which is what I/Odoor owners do too.

> They spend most of their day sleeping,>>

Which is what a lot of I/Odoor cats do too and they also have the
choice to go out to .

>>and I would think sleeping in
> air-conditioned comfort on a soft bed, with no worries about being
snuck up
> upon by a predator would be more conducive to happiness.>>>

Not every one has coyotes and eagles in their back yard.If they have
then the cats should be only allowed out under supervision.
Kim snoozes in the grass in the sun or in her shed . I don't think
she likely to be attacked by the pigeons:) though I 'm thinking of
taking in rescue battery hens and that might be a different matter!
Most I/O cats have a choice whether to go in or out.
There are good , mediocre and bad cat owners regardless of whether
their cat is indoor or I/O.
Alison

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 05:21 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> We're not talking about that here, we talking about the *BEST* care
> of cats
>> by people who *ADORE* cats (or at least profess to adore cats). >>>
>
> um, we talking about indoor cats , we're talking about behaviour
> problems that indoor cats can suffer from that are rarely seen in
> indoor /outdoor cats. Does the knowledge of the owner and the care
> commitment make a difference , yes it can make a difference but you
> can't guarantee you can make every confined cat happy.

Yes I can, I have. I haven't yet had a cat with behavioral problems or one
that has been unhappy.

>>> I've had
>> many cats over the many years of my life, and *NONE* have exhibited
> *ANY*
>> behavior problems while in my care. Of course, every minute that
> I'm home I
>> am interacting with my cats in some way (either playing with them or
> petting
>> them), and when I'm not home they have (literally) hundreds of toys
> to play
>> with and each other to play with.>>>
>
> which is what I/Odoor owners do too.
>
> > They spend most of their day sleeping,>>
>
> Which is what a lot of I/Odoor cats do too and they also have the
> choice to go out to .
>
> >>and I would think sleeping in
>> air-conditioned comfort on a soft bed, with no worries about being
> snuck up
>> upon by a predator would be more conducive to happiness.>>>
>
> Not every one has coyotes and eagles in their back yard.If they have
> then the cats should be only allowed out under supervision.

But cats don't *stay* in their back yards. And even if you have cat fencing
so the cat does stay in the back yard you still can't keep out fleas, worms,
and other parasites that can make your cat ill.

> Kim snoozes in the grass in the sun or in her shed . I don't think
> she likely to be attacked by the pigeons:) though I 'm thinking of
> taking in rescue battery hens and that might be a different matter!
> Most I/O cats have a choice whether to go in or out.

And most children, if give the choice between candy or vegetables will
choose candy - that doesn't mean it's good for them and they should be
allowed to do it!

> There are good , mediocre and bad cat owners regardless of whether
> their cat is indoor or I/O.
> Alison

No, you're wrong. There *are* good, mediocre and bad cat owners but whether
or not their cat is indoor or I/O is one of the things that determines
whether they are good, mediocre or bad cat owners.

Hugs,

CatNipped

Alison

April 6th 05, 05:27 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> ">
> But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
> children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put
your cats
> in harm's way. >>

You said "A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
actually
take the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. "
and Ashly replied "I think that's probably a very valid point. But
let's be entirely
realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
their
cats that they put that time and energy in?"

When you realised that Ashley had a valid point you decided to turn it
on to her ( or him?)
so perhaps you would like to take the opportunity to respond to that
point.
If every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good owner then how
come so many cats are declawed and end up dumped in shelters?
Alison

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:44 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> news:1112761256.e7dcb92a110be8aec438b066433d309d@t eranews...
> >
> >> > > > I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and
> vets
> > > who
> > > > > have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are
> more
> > > > > likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self
> > > mutilation
> > > > > and chewing fabric.
> > > > > This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement
> by
> > > Dr
> > > > > Sandra McCune
> > > > > "Specific problems associated with confinement include
> boredom,
> > > > > aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural
> > > inhibition,
> > > > > withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success ,
> anorexia
> > > ,
> > > > > weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and
> self
> > > > > mutilation
> > > >
> > > > Pfft. She's a Brit. It's the moronic kneejerk culture she grew
> > > > up in that shaped her "findings."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not sure who you're refering to here , me or Dr McClune?
> > > Alison
> >
> > McCune. And she is not the first to use her credentials and her
> > research to validate and justify the preconceptions she had going
> > into the study. It is one of the least-well-kept secrets in her
> field.>>>
>
> er it's not just her research hence the references to (Blackshaw
> 1985b, hart &hart 1985, Mellen 1992. Mcclune1992, Holmes 1993, Smith
> et al , 1994 van den Bos and de Cock Buning 1992). Her lecture was
> actually on how to improve the life of cats in confinement and
> references must be cited when using other people's published research
> or studies
> Alison
>

And they're all British, raised with the mindset that cats ought
to be outside, a mindset that is based upon times that predate
the car.

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:48 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Alison" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >>> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
> > indoor cat
> >> due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
> > cars,
> >> environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
> > and
> >> psychological disorders. >>>
> >
> > Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
> > from it.
> > Alison
>
> Oh what a lovely blanket statement - which has *NO* realtionship, however
> distant, to the facts!
>

That never bothers Alison. In fact, she, and Steve G. appear to see it as
a Desired Tactic. :)

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:49 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> "CatNipped" > wrote:
>
> > I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and
> > *STILL* putting your cats at risk!
>
> It was the cat that suffered.
>

Yes indeed. That does explain it. All Kagis had to do was
cry and decide that regardless, all his cats must be allowed
to roam.

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:51 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Ashley" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > No, dear, it's not actually (see I can do condescenion too).
>
> *Very* good <applause>! You *can* learn *something*. It's just too bad
> that you only apply what you learn when it's convenient for you.
>

Well, actually, she had been doing it for a long time before your
apparently offensive tone. *shaking my head*

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 05:53 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ">
>> But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
>> children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put
> your cats
>> in harm's way. >>
>
> You said "A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
> actually
> take the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. "
> and Ashly replied "I think that's probably a very valid point. But
> let's be entirely
> realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
> their
> cats that they put that time and energy in?"
>
> When you realised that Ashley had a valid point you decided to turn it
> on to her ( or him?)

When did I ever indicate that I "realised" Ashley had a valid point???!!! I
think you've mistaken me for someone with a lot less IQ points!!! Ashley
*HAS NO VALID ARGUMENTS*, which has been *MY* valid point during this whole
debate.

When she wrote "I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be
entirely realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
their cats that they put that time and energy in?", I simply pointed out
that she had (finally!) stated her real reasons for allowing her cats to go
outside. Of course she denied that saying she wasn't a "typical" cat owner
and I can only say thank goodness for that!

Let's get real, as much as some people try to deny it, when we ascribe venal
behavior to others with no basis in fact, we are projecting our own
thoughts, feelings, and opinions onto them (classic example of our need for
self-justification of what we're doing even when it has been pointed out
that what we're doing is wrong - how many kids have you heard say, "But
Jimmy's mom let's him do this!").

> so perhaps you would like to take the opportunity to respond to that
> point.
> If every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good owner then how
> come so many cats are declawed and end up dumped in shelters?
> Alison

Where are you reading these things that you are claiming I've written???!
Please provide quotes rather than making baseless accusations! *NOWHERE*
have I stated that "every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good
owner". *NOWHERE* have I stated that it's a good thing to declaw a cat (in
fact I have campaigned mightily against it, in my own community I'm actively
working to get the laws changed so that it becomes illegal to declaw a cat).

Just like Ashley you are now throwing out the ultimate troll-bait in a cats
newsgroup, the "declaw" issue. If that, and making false accusations, are
all that you are left to debate with, then face it sweetie, you've lost this
argument!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Mary

April 6th 05, 05:57 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> news:1112806232.3759abe6cca0c9d79b579b6ffe13086b@t eranews...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Alison" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "Phil P." > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >>
> >> >>> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
> >> > indoor cat
> >> >> due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
> >> > cars,
> >> >> environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
> >> > and
> >> >> psychological disorders. >>>
> >> >
> >> > Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
> >> > from it.
> >> > Alison
> >>
> >> Oh what a lovely blanket statement - which has *NO* realtionship,
however
> >> distant, to the facts!
> >>
> >
> > That never bothers Alison. In fact, she, and Steve G. appear to see it
as
> > a Desired Tactic. :)
>
> Well of course, why take recourse in facts when you can just say something
> forcefully enough or often enough and make it be true! All that
researching
> to make sure your data is correct is such a bother!! ;>
>

Or, when your opponent's case is too strong, you can say "You have
a real problem with people who disagree with you." hahahahaha!

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 05:58 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112806232.3759abe6cca0c9d79b579b6ffe13086b@t eranews...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Alison" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >>> In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
>> > indoor cat
>> >> due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
>> > cars,
>> >> environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
>> > and
>> >> psychological disorders. >>>
>> >
>> > Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
>> > from it.
>> > Alison
>>
>> Oh what a lovely blanket statement - which has *NO* realtionship, however
>> distant, to the facts!
>>
>
> That never bothers Alison. In fact, she, and Steve G. appear to see it as
> a Desired Tactic. :)

Well of course, why take recourse in facts when you can just say something
forcefully enough or often enough and make it be true! All that researching
to make sure your data is correct is such a bother!! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

Mary

April 6th 05, 06:04 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Alison" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> ">
> >> But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
> >> children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put
> > your cats
> >> in harm's way. >>
> >
> > You said "A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
> > actually
> > take the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. "
> > and Ashly replied "I think that's probably a very valid point. But
> > let's be entirely
> > realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
> > their
> > cats that they put that time and energy in?"
> >
> > When you realised that Ashley had a valid point you decided to turn it
> > on to her ( or him?)
>
> When did I ever indicate that I "realised" Ashley had a valid point???!!!
I
> think you've mistaken me for someone with a lot less IQ points!!! Ashley
> *HAS NO VALID ARGUMENTS*, which has been *MY* valid point during this
whole
> debate.

hahahaha! Now you see what I mean. It's downright smarmy. Steve G. announced
that I neglect my cats in the same way. It was supposed to throw me onto the
defensive. :) Anything but admit that allowing a cat to roam unsupervised
outside
anywhere there are cars (which would be anywhere there are people)
endangers them and is therefore wrong. That is the point, and that is the
point
Assley and Alison and Steve will dance around rather than address, because
it cannot be refuted. After a while, it gets really funny, like the knight
in
Monty Python who, after having been trounced in a sword fight, flops
around on the ground legless and armless and says "Come on, I'm not
finished yet, come over here and I'll bite yer kneecaps off!" :)

Alison

April 6th 05, 06:06 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
>>Catnipped>
The hours that I am at work my cats spend sleeping (I know this
because
> that's what they do even when I am home sick or on weekends). >>>

No different from owners and their outdoor cats then ! You said that
indoor cats need to play for hours each day and now you're saying they
sleep all day so they don't need hours of play assuming they sleep all
night too or do they keep you awake wanting to play?

< Alison> Only twice? euw!

<Catnipped > That's all you have to scoop when you have one litterbox
per cat - for me
> that's cleaning eight litterboxes per day (here's the math in case
you
> didn't follow: 4 cats, 4 litterboxes times twice daily).>>>

The amount of cats is nothing to do with it. Each cat should have
the same amount of time and care as a single cat would. If you're too
lazy to scoop out your four cats litter trays then don't have four
cats.

> But I bet you have to clean them less often, or don't your cats like
the
> "free and natural" way it feels to poop outside??? >>>

Erm , whats your point ? If my cats uses her tray I scoop it , if she
doesn't use it then it doesn't need to be scooped. When I've kept cats
and kittens inside before , I still cleaned them as they use it or
when I got up or came in . Four trays is a doddle and takes a few
minutes.
I work in a boarding cattery and I clean out up to 30 litter trays at
least twice in the AM. Here's the Math s for *you* that's 30 trays x
2 = 60 *That's* a bit harder than 4 trays , twice a day and I don't
whinge about it either:)
You have cats that have no choice but to use there trays and you only
scoop twice a day so the odds are at some time they are going to be
digging around in urine soaked cat litter with clumps of faeces in it
.. As I said earlier Euw!
Alison

Mathew Kagis

April 6th 05, 06:10 PM

"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> In article >,
> (Meghan Noecker) wrote:
>
> > Certainly nothing in daily life. Maybe it looks that way on the news,
> > but really, we just go about our business the same as always.
>
> At my job, we all have photo ID badges and have to go through metal
> detectors. Visitors have to leave their driver's licenses. That's as a
> direct result of 911. For a long time, I couldn't get into the building
> next door for lunch at the restaurant because only people with IDs were
> allowed in. I think there have been a lot of subtle changes like this,
> and a subtle change in attitudes and presumptions that isn't overt but
> it's still there.
>
> --
> http://www.slywy.com/

Exactly what I mean Dianne. You are bombarded with it in hundreds of
different subtle ways, color coded warnings, The Fox Network (Rupert
Murdoch's personal right wing propoganda machine) and on and on... Lots of
people who grew up in the 70's & 80's may not have eaten at McDonalds, may
have found their food disgusting, but I'll bet big money almost ALL of them
knew the big mac song...
Outside the USA, we see it every day... The latest up here in Canada...
Is the announcement that Canadians will soon need to carry a Passport to
enter the USA. Us darn Canadian terrorists, trying to bring universal
health care to the USA... NEVER!
--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 06:13 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112807221.26640ebaaa862b806d1d878744b5e1c5@t eranews...

> After a while, it gets really funny, like the knight
> in
> Monty Python who, after having been trounced in a sword fight, flops
> around on the ground legless and armless and says "Come on, I'm not
> finished yet, come over here and I'll bite yer kneecaps off!" :)

ROTFLMAOWTIME!!! Oh gawd, now I'm not going to be able to continue this
debate with a straight face (er, straight fingers??). How wicked of you,
Mary! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

Alison

April 6th 05, 06:18 PM

"Mary" > wrote in message
news:1112806007.55cc251dd00b4637aaf235802211e54e@t eranews...
>
>
> And they're all British, raised with the mindset that cats ought
> to be outside, a mindset that is based upon times that predate
> the car.>>

Van den Bos and de Cock Buning are British. Okay! LOL
Bless you Mary, you've really cheered me up in the face of the
looming General Election and Royal wedding. What would I do without
you :)
Alison

Alison

April 6th 05, 06:23 PM

"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > um, we talking about indoor cats , we're talking about behaviour
> > problems that indoor cats can suffer from that are rarely seen in
> > indoor /outdoor cats. Does the knowledge of the owner and the care
> > commitment make a difference , yes it can make a difference but
you
> > can't guarantee you can make every confined cat happy.
>
> Yes I can, I have. I haven't yet had a cat with behavioral problems
or one
> that has been unhappy.>>

I'm pleased to hear that but by *you* I meant *one*

> No, you're wrong. There *are* good, mediocre and bad cat owners but
whether
> or not their cat is indoor or I/O is one of the things that
determines
> whether they are good, mediocre or bad cat owners.

Nope.
Alison

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 06:24 PM

"Alison" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>Catnipped>
> The hours that I am at work my cats spend sleeping (I know this
> because
>> that's what they do even when I am home sick or on weekends). >>>
>
> No different from owners and their outdoor cats then ! You said that
> indoor cats need to play for hours each day and now you're saying they
> sleep all day so they don't need hours of play assuming they sleep all
> night too or do they keep you awake wanting to play?

As Phil pointed out, cats are crepuscular, they are most active at twilight.
I'm not that old yet that I go to be at 6:00PM! ;> I play/pet/care for my
cats from the time I get home at 5:00PM until the time I go to bed at
11:00PM. And yes, Sammy wakes me up all night long either biting my hands
or feet, or curling up to suck her toe while wanted me to "groom" her.

> < Alison> Only twice? euw!
>
> <Catnipped > That's all you have to scoop when you have one litterbox
> per cat - for me
>> that's cleaning eight litterboxes per day (here's the math in case
> you
>> didn't follow: 4 cats, 4 litterboxes times twice daily).>>>
>
> The amount of cats is nothing to do with it. Each cat should have
> the same amount of time and care as a single cat would. If you're too
> lazy to scoop out your four cats litter trays then don't have four
> cats.

Where did *I* write that I didn't want to scoop out my four cats' litter
trays???? Dear, when you are forced to start making up things in order to
win an argument you've already lost so give it up already!

>> But I bet you have to clean them less often, or don't your cats like
> the
>> "free and natural" way it feels to poop outside??? >>>
>
> Erm , whats your point ? If my cats uses her tray I scoop it , if she
> doesn't use it then it doesn't need to be scooped. When I've kept cats
> and kittens inside before , I still cleaned them as they use it or
> when I got up or came in . Four trays is a doddle and takes a few
> minutes.

Good for you, but again, I don't remember accusing you or anyone else of not
wanting to clean a litter box, I simply answered the question, "How is
keeping cats indoors more effort than letting them out". If you are feeling
defensive about something, please look to your own actions instead of
putting words in my mouth.

> I work in a boarding cattery and I clean out up to 30 litter trays at
> least twice in the AM. Here's the Math s for *you* that's 30 trays x
> 2 = 60 *That's* a bit harder than 4 trays , twice a day and I don't
> whinge about it either:)

Again, good for you fornot whinging! Did I say you did???

> You have cats that have no choice but to use there trays and you only
> scoop twice a day so the odds are at some time they are going to be
> digging around in urine soaked cat litter with clumps of faeces in it
> . As I said earlier Euw!

LOL! Oh now we are really reaching! You think it's OK for cats to be
allowed outside to eat vermin- and parasite-infected rodents but think it's
pukey for them to dig around in urine soaked cat litter with clumps of
faeces in it. Well, maybe it's because my cats aren't eating vermin- and
parasite-infected rodents, but they don't overload their litterboxes to the
point where they don't have a clean spot to dig in (are your cats
aurically-challenged that they can't smell a used spot from a clean one in
the litterbox???). One cat per litterbox, scooped twice daily, keeps them
perfectly happy.

Sweetie, face it, you really are grasping at straws at this point and it's
not pretty! ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> Alison

CatNipped

April 6th 05, 06:29 PM

"Mathew Kagis" > wrote in message
news:YJU4e.2661$7Q4.298@clgrps13...
>
>
> "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> In article >,
>> (Meghan Noecker) wrote:
>>
>> > Certainly nothing in daily life. Maybe it looks that way on the news,
>> > but really, we just go about our business the same as always.
>>
>> At my job, we all have photo ID badges and have to go through metal
>> detectors. Visitors have to leave their driver's licenses. That's as a
>> direct result of 911. For a long time, I couldn't get into the building
>> next door for lunch at the restaurant because only people with IDs were
>> allowed in. I think there have been a lot of subtle changes like this,
>> and a subtle change in attitudes and presumptions that isn't overt but
>> it's still there.
>>
>> --
>> http://www.slywy.com/
>
>
>
> Exactly what I mean Dianne. You are bombarded with it in hundreds of
> different subtle ways, color coded warnings, The Fox Network (Rupert
> Murdoch's personal right wing propoganda machine) and on and on... Lots of
> people who grew up in the 70's & 80's may not have eaten at McDonalds, may
> have found their food disgusting, but I'll bet big money almost ALL of
> them
> knew the big mac song.

Oh, how foolish we are! Um, no, I mean how evil we are! No, that's not it
either, how greedy we are, yeah, that's the ticket!! How about how ______
Americans are and just insert your own epithet.

> Outside the USA, we see it every day... The latest up here in Canada...
> Is the announcement that Canadians will soon need to carry a Passport to
> enter the USA. Us darn Canadian terrorists, trying to bring universal
> health care to the USA... NEVER!

Oh, how paranoid we are!! Never mind that the terrorists who have been
identified in the US *FIRST* got into either Mexico or Canada and *then*
into the US. Gawd forbid that we try to regulate our borders! Why, why
should we have to, since the US is the scourge of the earth and the source
of all evil, why would *anyone* want to come here???

OK, tongue get out of my cheek now, you've said enough. ;>

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Mathew
> Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
> En Vino Veritas
>
>