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T[_6_]
September 25th 10, 01:50 PM
My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
low carbohydrate food. I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
and fish. Can anyone add anything to this?
Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
Thanks

September 25th 10, 05:08 PM
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:50:58 +0100, "T" >
wrote:

>My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
>low carbohydrate food. I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
>and fish. Can anyone add anything to this?
>Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?

Not to sound too cynical, but there is no success with diabetes, human
or feline, only prolonged failure. I say this as a T2 diabetic of over
40 years, on insulin since 1999. My "success" is defined as still
being able to see, having functioning kidneys, and all my extremities.

Ripley, our grand old man, developed it when he was maybe ten. We fed
him low-carb foods, but with six other cats and free-feeding stations
around the house we couldn't guarantee that was all he got. He
eventually ended up on insulin, and endured the daily pin pricks to
test sugar level and inject insulin with great dignity, but he was
never truly stable after that. Year after year he became slower and
less active. When his sugar was in balance he was pretty good, but he
was given to spells of extremely low sugar that would send him into
convulsions. He was about 15 when we finally had to let him go.

We spent thousands on his care over the years, and I understand if you
are reluctant to do so, but there really isn't much you can do without
a vet, whereas with a vet you can keep her quality of life better for
longer. If you aren't checking sugar regularly, you are just shooting
blind when it comes to treating things like convulsions, vomiting,
diarrhea, loss of balance, etc.

You could, at the very least, get a blood glucose meter. Our vet said
we needed the super deluxe for-cats-only model, which cost a small
fortune, but over the years I often compared it to my own meter
results and saw no difference. You can get a human meter for about
$20, but then they kill you on the cost of the test strips.

When she starts acting strangely (stumbling, walking in circles,
throwing convulsions, etc.) then you can at least check her sugar to
see if that is the cause. If it is low (and I'm deliberately omitting
specific numbers here because I'm not a vet) you can use a plastic
medicine syringe to force-feed her some Karo syrup to get her sugar
back up.

Of course, then there is the exposure to driving the sugar too high
and, without insulin, not being able to bring it down again.

I know it sounds complicated and, had I not worked it all out in my
own care for so many years, I probably would not have had a handle on
it. I know my wife never really understood the process.

Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I wish you the best of luck. If you
get to a point of wanting to test her sugar, I developed a method that
works pretty well. Just drop me a line and I'll explain it.

Dick Evans

bill
September 25th 10, 07:23 PM
On Sep 25, 12:50*pm, "T" > wrote:
> My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
> low carbohydrate food. *I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
> and fish. *Can anyone add anything to this?
> Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
> Thanks

My cat was given a big dose of dexamethasone by an idiot vet who
didn't even know of something called 'steroid induced diabetes' until
after he had done this and I have now paid thousands for having a
diabetic cat for life.

Switching insulin brands can be a serious problem. A number of years
back I can't remember the brand, but word went out that this was no
longer going to be available. So the vet switched to Vetsulin.
Something went badly wrong. The cat crashed. And it was really
expensive pulling him back from that.

Now this year they have announced the Vetsulin supply has been cut off
and I scored what I think were the last two bottles in town. If you
Google for Vetsulin you can find all sorts of people who seem to have
had serious problems with that. I don't know, maybe I've been lucky,
but I don't think I've seen any of those problems in years of using
that. However I've almost exhausted the last of my Vetsulin stash and
will have to go through another switch in the next few weeks. I'm
leaning in the direction of seeing if I can get non prescription
Humulin from Walmart of Walgreens. If anyone has any good information
and hands on experience for what to substitute for Vetsulin porcine
U-40, preferably non prescription, that will hopefully not be pulled
off the shelves in a couple of years I would really appreciate the
information.

Wellness sells very good quality wet food for cats that I have had
excellent luck with. I'm not sure what is in it, but a couple of
people I recommended this to have reported back that their cat went on
hunger strike for a while when faced with eating their old stuff after
trying a small can of Wellness. So use some caution. Petco sells
12.5 oz. cans that are cheaper per ounce than the 5.5 oz. or 4 oz.
cans sold elsewhere. And if you sign up with them then once or twice
a year they will give you a 10% off coupon for your next purchase. I
get paid nothing to say this, in fact I keep paying Petco for
Wellness, but less than I was paying elsewhere.

Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate. Almost all the kibble
has 30-60% carbs and the manufacturers seem to go out of their way to
avoid putting that information on the label. Even some "quality"
kibble like Science Diet sold and recommended by vets turn out to be
35% carb when you really press the manufacturer to tell you the carb
content. My cat really didn't like the switch to wet from a previous
diet of wet and carb kibble. A few years later when I stumbled onto
the Evo kibble and dropped some in front of him I heard a snort and
they were gone. You can get 2 kg bags, try to keep air away from it
and keep the supply in the fridge to try to slow the process of it
going stale. He now leads me over to the fridge door and tells me he
knows I can open that door and get him more of those kibbles now!

Some people claim they can easily get blood glucose readings at home.
I've tried and the cat will kill me before he will let me do that.
But he is older and slower now, so I might be able to accomplish that
during the brand switch. If you watch the ads you can sometimes get a
glucose meter with ten test strips free after rebate. You might be
able to do that once for each brand on the market. The strips have a
date coded into them and the meters refuse to use strips after the
expiration date.

Have your vet show you what he is looking for in circulation around
the toes and in the gums. Then you can keep an eye on this yourself.

You want to avoid having blood glucose go extremely high for very
long. That can lead to neuropathy, the cat won't be able to walk,
etc. With insulin and a little time it is possible to have some
recovery from that, but it is really rough on them and you really want
to avoid that.

If you can get the cat's weight way down and have close to zero carbs
then some people claim they can control or even reverse diabetes this
way. Others on the net have written that they were sure the cat was
going to kill them in their sleep because of putting the cat on a
diet.

Water consumption and urine output can give you a rough idea whether
glucose is too high. With practice you can tell a lot from this. If
urine output goes up you know you have to deal with this now.

Try to find a vet who has had direct experience with keeping cats with
diabetes right side up, but even that is no guarantee.

Bill Graham
September 26th 10, 12:57 AM
"T" > wrote in message
...
> My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
> low carbohydrate food. I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
> and fish. Can anyone add anything to this?
> Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
> Thanks

No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can, and a
can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging you $2.00 a
pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that, and boneless chicken
breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed my cats pure
chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it right along with them.
Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and carbs, and is very good for
diabetics, both human and feline.

Bill Graham
September 26th 10, 01:03 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:50:58 +0100, "T" >
> wrote:
>
>>My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
>>low carbohydrate food. I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
>>and fish. Can anyone add anything to this?
>>Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
>
> Not to sound too cynical, but there is no success with diabetes, human
> or feline, only prolonged failure. I say this as a T2 diabetic of over
> 40 years, on insulin since 1999. My "success" is defined as still
> being able to see, having functioning kidneys, and all my extremities.
>
> Ripley, our grand old man, developed it when he was maybe ten. We fed
> him low-carb foods, but with six other cats and free-feeding stations
> around the house we couldn't guarantee that was all he got. He
> eventually ended up on insulin, and endured the daily pin pricks to
> test sugar level and inject insulin with great dignity, but he was
> never truly stable after that. Year after year he became slower and
> less active. When his sugar was in balance he was pretty good, but he
> was given to spells of extremely low sugar that would send him into
> convulsions. He was about 15 when we finally had to let him go.
>
> We spent thousands on his care over the years, and I understand if you
> are reluctant to do so, but there really isn't much you can do without
> a vet, whereas with a vet you can keep her quality of life better for
> longer. If you aren't checking sugar regularly, you are just shooting
> blind when it comes to treating things like convulsions, vomiting,
> diarrhea, loss of balance, etc.
>
> You could, at the very least, get a blood glucose meter. Our vet said
> we needed the super deluxe for-cats-only model, which cost a small
> fortune, but over the years I often compared it to my own meter
> results and saw no difference. You can get a human meter for about
> $20, but then they kill you on the cost of the test strips.
>
> When she starts acting strangely (stumbling, walking in circles,
> throwing convulsions, etc.) then you can at least check her sugar to
> see if that is the cause. If it is low (and I'm deliberately omitting
> specific numbers here because I'm not a vet) you can use a plastic
> medicine syringe to force-feed her some Karo syrup to get her sugar
> back up.
>
> Of course, then there is the exposure to driving the sugar too high
> and, without insulin, not being able to bring it down again.
>
> I know it sounds complicated and, had I not worked it all out in my
> own care for so many years, I probably would not have had a handle on
> it. I know my wife never really understood the process.
>
> Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I wish you the best of luck. If you
> get to a point of wanting to test her sugar, I developed a method that
> works pretty well. Just drop me a line and I'll explain it.
>
> Dick Evans

I am diabetic also, and if my cats were diabetic, I think I would experiment
with the urine test strips......They are not as quick, but they would be a
lot easier on the cat. My health insurance pays for my meter test strips, so
I could use some of them on the cat.......

catlady
September 26th 10, 03:03 AM
On Sep 25, 7:50*am, "T" > wrote:
> My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
> low carbohydrate food. *I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
> and fish. *Can anyone add anything to this?
> Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
> Thanks

I am a tech that specializes in working with diabetic cats and getting
them into remission. We routinely get remissions in our patients by
feeding a low carb, grain free wet food- Innova EVO 95 (any flavors)
or Wellness Beef/chicken, Chicken, or Turkey (no other flavors will
work) along with using Lantus insulin (which is shown to offer the
best chance of remission) in conjunction with daily home blood glucose
testing. We keep the BG numbers as close to normal as possible and
over time (it can be weeks or months) the numbers drop as does the
insulin dose and we get remission. My most recent patient went into
remission in 8 days. If you allow your cat ANY dry food, forget about
remission and plan on treating diabetes for the rest of your cat's
life. http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com is a good website, but they are
stil recommending PZI insulin. Lantus is by far a better option and I
haven't used PZI in years. Here is one protocol for using Lantus that
is written by the main researcher on feline diabetes and the use of
Lantus to get remission:
http://www.drjohnson.com/a_article_companion_animal_cat_lantus_diabetes.htm l

September 26th 10, 03:07 AM
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:03:01 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>I am diabetic also, and if my cats were diabetic, I think I would experiment
>with the urine test strips......They are not as quick, but they would be a
>lot easier on the cat.

Unless they've changed them in the last 30 years, urine test strips
are ridiculously inaccurate. They don't measure lows at all and they
don't even indicate a high until blood glucose gets high enough to be
spilling into the urine. That could be a hundred points or more higher
than you could detect with a meter and test strips. And even when it
does show a high level, it's only a very vague high level: A
comparative color of green vs a digital readout from your meter.

I don't know any diabetics who still use urine strips.

Then too, there's the problem of catching the cat in the act of
urinating and getting the strip into the urine stream.

catlady
September 26th 10, 03:08 AM
On Sep 25, 11:08*am, wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:50:58 +0100, "T" >
> wrote:
>
> >My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
> >low carbohydrate food. *I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
> >and fish. *Can anyone add anything to this?
> >Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
>
> Not to sound too cynical, but there is no success with diabetes, human
> or feline, only prolonged failure.

This is utter BS. Cats go into remission and stay in remission all the
time provided their caretaker does things right. You kept your cat
diabetic by free feeding dry food (so-called dry diabetic diets are
too high in carbs.) The failure here is yours.





I say this as a T2 diabetic of over
> 40 years, on insulin since 1999. My "success" is defined as still
> being able to see, having functioning kidneys, and all my extremities.
>
> Ripley, our grand old man, developed it when he was maybe ten. We fed
> him low-carb foods, but with six other cats and free-feeding stations
> around the house we couldn't guarantee that was all he got. He
> eventually ended up on insulin, and endured the daily pin pricks to
> test sugar level and inject *insulin with great dignity, but he was
> never truly stable after that. Year after year he became slower and
> less active. When his sugar was in balance he was pretty good, but he
> was given to spells of extremely low sugar that would send him into
> convulsions. He was about 15 when we finally had to let him go.
>
> We spent thousands on his care over the years, and I understand if you
> are reluctant to do so, but there really isn't much you can do without
> a vet, whereas *with a vet you can keep her quality of life better for
> longer. If you aren't checking sugar regularly, you are just shooting
> blind when it comes to treating things like convulsions, vomiting,
> diarrhea, loss of balance, etc.
>
> You could, at the very least, get a blood glucose meter. Our vet said
> we needed the super deluxe for-cats-only model, which cost a small
> fortune, but over the years I often compared it to my own meter
> results and saw no difference. You can get a human meter for about
> $20, but then they kill you on the cost of the test strips.
>
> When she starts acting strangely (stumbling, walking in circles,
> throwing convulsions, etc.) then you can at least check her sugar to
> see if that is the cause. If it is low (and I'm deliberately omitting
> specific numbers here because I'm not a vet) you can use a plastic
> medicine syringe to force-feed her some Karo syrup to get her sugar
> back up.
>
> Of course, then there is the exposure to driving the sugar too high
> and, without insulin, not being able to bring it down again.
>
> I know it sounds complicated and, had I not worked it all out in my
> own care for so many years, I probably would not have had a handle on
> it. I know my wife never really understood the process.
>
> Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I wish you the best of luck. If you
> get to a point of wanting to test her sugar, I developed a method that
> works pretty well. Just drop me a line and I'll explain it.
>
> Dick Evans

catlady
September 26th 10, 03:13 AM
On Sep 25, 1:23*pm, bill > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 12:50*pm, "T" > wrote:
>
> > My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
> > low carbohydrate food. *I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
> > and fish. *Can anyone add anything to this?
> > Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
> > Thanks
>
> My cat was given a big dose of dexamethasone by an idiot vet who
> didn't even know of something called 'steroid induced diabetes' until
> after he had done this and I have now paid thousands for having a
> diabetic cat for life.
>
> Switching insulin brands can be a serious problem. *A number of years
> back I can't remember the brand, but word went out that this was no
> longer going to be available. *So the vet switched to Vetsulin.
> Something went badly wrong. *The cat crashed. *And it was really
> expensive pulling him back from that.
>
> Now this year they have announced the Vetsulin supply has been cut off
> and I scored what I think were the last two bottles in town. *If you
> Google for Vetsulin you can find all sorts of people who seem to have
> had serious problems with that. *I don't know, maybe I've been lucky,
> but I don't think I've seen any of those problems in years of using
> that. *However I've almost exhausted the last of my Vetsulin stash and
> will have to go through another switch in the next few weeks. *I'm
> leaning in the direction of seeing if I can get non prescription
> Humulin from Walmart of Walgreens. *If anyone has any good information
> and hands on experience for what to substitute for Vetsulin porcine
> U-40, preferably non prescription, that will hopefully not be pulled
> off the shelves in a couple of years I would really appreciate the
> information.
>
> Wellness sells very good quality wet food for cats that I have had
> excellent luck with. *I'm not sure what is in it, but a couple of
> people I recommended this to have reported back that their cat went on
> hunger strike for a while when faced with eating their old stuff after
> trying a small can of Wellness. *So use some caution. *Petco sells
> 12.5 oz. cans that are cheaper per ounce than the 5.5 oz. or 4 oz.
> cans sold elsewhere. *And if you sign up with them then once or twice
> a year they will give you a 10% off coupon for your next purchase. *I
> get paid nothing to say this, in fact I keep paying Petco for
> Wellness, but less than I was paying elsewhere.
>
> Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
> of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate. *

EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.






Almost all the kibble
> has 30-60% carbs and the manufacturers seem to go out of their way to
> avoid putting that information on the label. *Even some "quality"
> kibble like Science Diet sold and recommended by vets turn out to be
> 35% carb when you really press the manufacturer to tell you the carb
> content. *My cat really didn't like the switch to wet from a previous
> diet of wet and carb kibble. *A few years later when I stumbled onto
> the Evo kibble and dropped some in front of him I heard a snort and
> they were gone. *You can get 2 kg bags, try to keep air away from it
> and keep the supply in the fridge to try to slow the process of it
> going stale. *He now leads me over to the fridge door and tells me he
> knows I can open that door and get him more of those kibbles now!
>
> Some people claim they can easily get blood glucose readings at home.
> I've tried and the cat will kill me before he will let me do that.
> But he is older and slower now, so I might be able to accomplish that
> during the brand switch. *If you watch the ads you can sometimes get a
> glucose meter with ten test strips free after rebate. *You might be
> able to do that once for each brand on the market. *The strips have a
> date coded into them and the meters refuse to use strips after the
> expiration date.
>
> Have your vet show you what he is looking for in circulation around
> the toes and in the gums. Then you can keep an eye on this yourself.
>
> You want to avoid having blood glucose go extremely high for very
> long. *That can lead to neuropathy, the cat won't be able to walk,
> etc. *With insulin and a little time it is possible to have some
> recovery from that, but it is really rough on them and you really want
> to avoid that.
>
> If you can get the cat's weight way down and have close to zero carbs
> then some people claim they can control or even reverse diabetes this
> way. *Others on the net have written that they were sure the cat was
> going to kill them in their sleep because of putting the cat on a
> diet.
>
> Water consumption and urine output can give you a rough idea whether
> glucose is too high. *With practice you can tell a lot from this. *If
> urine output goes up you know you have to deal with this now.
>
> Try to find a vet who has had direct experience with keeping cats with
> diabetes right side up, but even that is no guarantee.

Bill Graham
September 26th 10, 03:16 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:03:01 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>>I am diabetic also, and if my cats were diabetic, I think I would
>>experiment
>>with the urine test strips......They are not as quick, but they would be a
>>lot easier on the cat.
>
> Unless they've changed them in the last 30 years, urine test strips
> are ridiculously inaccurate. They don't measure lows at all and they
> don't even indicate a high until blood glucose gets high enough to be
> spilling into the urine. That could be a hundred points or more higher
> than you could detect with a meter and test strips. And even when it
> does show a high level, it's only a very vague high level: A
> comparative color of green vs a digital readout from your meter.
>
> I don't know any diabetics who still use urine strips.
>
> Then too, there's the problem of catching the cat in the act of
> urinating and getting the strip into the urine stream.
>
>

Well......I didn't say it would be easy.....:^) You might have to line the
litterbox with them, or get the chemicals and make your own in 16 x 20 inch
sheets......but at least, you wouldn't have to stick the poor cats paws with
a needle.

September 26th 10, 03:17 AM
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:16:04 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>
>Well......I didn't say it would be easy.....:^) You might have to line the
>litterbox with them, or get the chemicals and make your own in 16 x 20 inch
>sheets......but at least, you wouldn't have to stick the poor cats paws with
>a needle.

You stick the ears.

September 26th 10, 03:27 AM
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:08:17 -0700 (PDT), catlady
> wrote:

>
>This is utter BS. Cats go into remission and stay in remission all the
>time provided their caretaker does things right. You kept your cat
>diabetic by free feeding dry food (so-called dry diabetic diets are
>too high in carbs.) The failure here is yours.

Sorry, but diabetes, be it in humans or cats, is *never* cured, only
controlled. Remission is nothing but a temporary control. I never said
that I free-fed him dry cat food, only that with six cats in the house
there was the odd chance he may have gotten into some. His daily
regimen was diabetic canned food and high-protein foods like chicken.
His sugar was tested twice a day or more and he got insulin twice a
day. He lasted well over five years from the time he was diagnosed.
There was no failure here, only the inevitable outcome of the disease.

Bill Graham
September 26th 10, 03:33 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:16:04 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Well......I didn't say it would be easy.....:^) You might have to line the
>>litterbox with them, or get the chemicals and make your own in 16 x 20
>>inch
>>sheets......but at least, you wouldn't have to stick the poor cats paws
>>with
>>a needle.
>
> You stick the ears.

Ouch! (in either case)

MaryL
September 26th 10, 04:06 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well......I didn't say it would be easy.....:^) You might have to line the
> litterbox with them, or get the chemicals and make your own in 16 x 20
> inch sheets......but at least, you wouldn't have to stick the poor cats
> paws with a needle.

Cats are usually tested by using the ear, not a paw. It may sound painful,
but most cats show no reaction at all to this procedure. Here is a video
that illustrates the process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8

MaryL

MaryL
September 26th 10, 04:27 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:50:58 +0100, "T" >
> wrote:
>
>>My can has been diagnosed with diabetes and as part of her treatment needs
>>low carbohydrate food. I understand this means no biscuits and fresh meet
>>and fish. Can anyone add anything to this?
>>Has anyone been successful in treating a cat for diabetes without a vet?
>
> Not to sound too cynical, but there is no success with diabetes, human
> or feline, only prolonged failure. I say this as a T2 diabetic of over
> 40 years, on insulin since 1999. My "success" is defined as still
> being able to see, having functioning kidneys, and all my extremities.
>
<snip>
>
> We spent thousands on his care over the years, and I understand if you
> are reluctant to do so, but there really isn't much you can do without
> a vet, whereas with a vet you can keep her quality of life better for
> longer. If you aren't checking sugar regularly, you are just shooting
> blind when it comes to treating things like convulsions, vomiting,
> diarrhea, loss of balance, etc.
>
> You could, at the very least, get a blood glucose meter. Our vet said
> we needed the super deluxe for-cats-only model, which cost a small
> fortune, but over the years I often compared it to my own meter
> results and saw no difference. You can get a human meter for about
> $20, but then they kill you on the cost of the test strips.
>
<snip>
> Dick Evans

I have snipped much of this to reduce the length. I agree with your
assertion that the cat needs to be under the care of a veterinarian and that
BP levels need to be checked on a regular basis. A simple glucometer is all
that is needed. However, I strongly disagree with your inference that all
diabetics are doomed to failure. I am T2 myself and have not needed any
medication since March 2005. I certainly am not "cured" (there is no such
thing, in my opinion), but I am under good control. My A1c hovers between
5.1 and 5.2. The control was a complete change of diet--no flour, refined
sugar, rice, pasta, or potatoes. My doctor has been amazed. He says that
very few people are able to maintain that diet for such a long period of
time, but the results have been that I am healthy and do not need any
medication. Likewise, cats that are fed a high quality completely
grains-free diet can be brought into remission, often within a very short
period of time. I would also like to point out that cats that are fed a
diet like that *before* diabetes are highly unlikely ever to develop
diabetes, and that is even better than dealing with the problem
after-the-fact.

MaryL

Bill Graham
September 27th 10, 01:02 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well......I didn't say it would be easy.....:^) You might have to line
>> the litterbox with them, or get the chemicals and make your own in 16 x
>> 20 inch sheets......but at least, you wouldn't have to stick the poor
>> cats paws with a needle.
>
> Cats are usually tested by using the ear, not a paw. It may sound
> painful, but most cats show no reaction at all to this procedure. Here is
> a video that illustrates the process:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
>
> MaryL

Great video! We don't have any diabetic cats, but I'll keep this on file in
case we get one in the future....Both my wife and I are diabetic, and our
house if full of glucosometers.....They virtually give them away for free
because they make all their money selling the test strips at about a dollar
a piece.....(I told Polaroid to do this with their cameras about 30 years
ago, but they paid no attention to me. Today, they are out of
business....:^)

William Hamblen[_2_]
September 28th 10, 02:46 AM
Kelly Greene wrote:
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I am diabetic also, and if my cats were diabetic, I think I would
>> experiment with the urine test strips......They are not as quick, but
>> they would be a lot easier on the cat. My health insurance pays for my
>> meter test strips, so I could use some of them on the cat.......
>
>
> Diet plays a large roll in diabetes. There's a Dr. in Murfreesboro TN
> helping diabetics get off insulin using diet alone. But the person must
> be willing to change life-long poor eating habits (way too many
> carbs/sugars/starches) and give up some foods they really like. Exercise
> and weight control are also important.

Diabetes Type I (insulin dependent) is exactly that. It is not
controllable without insulin. Good diet is mandatory. Because your
body can't automatically manage your carbohydrate metabolism, you have
to consciously manage it. Some people, like me, with diabetes type II
(non-insulin dependent) can control blood glucose with diet. It is
uncommon to prescribe insulin for diabetes type II. You don't have to
be obese to get diabetes type II. All it takes is the wrong heredity.
Diabetes type I is not inherited.

If your Murfreesboro doctor is Asa Andrews, he is no doctor. He's a
chiropractor.

Bud

William Hamblen[_2_]
September 30th 10, 06:14 PM
On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:53:37 -0500, "Kelly Greene" >
wrote:

>"William Hamblen" > wrote in message
m...
>> Kelly Greene wrote:
>>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I am diabetic also, and if my cats were diabetic, I think I would
>>>> experiment with the urine test strips......They are not as quick, but
>>>> they would be a lot easier on the cat. My health insurance pays for my
>>>> meter test strips, so I could use some of them on the cat.......
>>>
>>>
>>> Diet plays a large roll in diabetes. There's a Dr. in Murfreesboro TN
>>> helping diabetics get off insulin using diet alone. But the person must
>>> be willing to change life-long poor eating habits (way too many
>>> carbs/sugars/starches) and give up some foods they really like. Exercise
>>> and weight control are also important.
>>
>> Diabetes Type I (insulin dependent) is exactly that. It is not
>> controllable without insulin. Good diet is mandatory. Because your body
>> can't automatically manage your carbohydrate metabolism, you have to
>> consciously manage it.
>
>I wasn't referring to type #1. Sorry, I should have made that clear.
>
>Some people, like me, with diabetes type II
>> (non-insulin dependent) can control blood glucose with diet. It is
>> uncommon to prescribe insulin for diabetes type II.
>
>My friend in FL, age 65, Type #2, was recently put on insulin. Diet and
>the pills weren't enough after 20 yrs. Yes, he was overweight when
>diagnosed.
>
>You don't have to
>> be obese to get diabetes type II. All it takes is the wrong heredity.
>> Diabetes type I is not inherited.
>
>Type #2 follows the obesity curve here in the USA. It's been on TV more
>than once. Poor diet choices and obesity lead to not only type #2 diabetes,
>but as you know, heart disease and other health problems. In cultures where
>excess food is not available, and carbs not a large part of the diet,
>obesity and diabetes are almost unknown.

Heredity counts. My father and all of his siblings had type II
diabetes and none were obese. Daddy was thin as a rail. My younger
brother, also type II, is thin. My older brother was thin. I'm 155
lb before breakfast. Some susceptibles may be triggered by weight
gain and some people can be as big as a house without abnormal
glucose.

Bud

Bill Graham
October 2nd 10, 03:55 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "William Hamblen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:53:37 -0500, "Kelly Greene" >
>> wrote:
>>>Type #2 follows the obesity curve here in the USA. It's been on TV more
>>>than once. Poor diet choices and obesity lead to not only type #2
>>>diabetes,
>>>but as you know, heart disease and other health problems. In cultures
>>>where
>>>excess food is not available, and carbs not a large part of the diet,
>>>obesity and diabetes are almost unknown.
>>
>> Heredity counts. My father and all of his siblings had type II
>> diabetes and none were obese. Daddy was thin as a rail. My younger
>> brother, also type II, is thin. My older brother was thin. I'm 155
>> lb before breakfast. Some susceptibles may be triggered by weight
>> gain and some people can be as big as a house without abnormal
>> glucose.
>>
>> Bud
>
> I'm sure genes count to some degree but the increase in type #2 is
> definitely following the obesity curve. This has been known for some
> time. Diabetes is becoming an epidemic in this country. Genes have not
> mutated that quickly. There are indeed thin people who made poor food
> choices that helped cause the type #2 they suffer.
>
> As for families of diabetics. There has to either be a genetic connection
> or all ate a similar diet very high in carbs, especially refined carbs.
> Usually you will find families all eat similar foods and suffer similar
> diseases.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.....I have type II, but my parents did not.
But this is because I am a lot fatter than were they. My dad was a "meat &
potatoes" type eater from the South, and they ate a relatively healthy diet.
I, on the other hand, was exposed to very spicy foods when I joined the Navy
and went overseas in my 20's, and have stuffed myself with rich, spicy,
unhealthy foods all of my life, and I am sure that this is why I developed
type II diabetes in my 60's. It is possible to overtax your glands with
years of overeating, just as you can overtax your liver with years of
excessive drinking. Unfortunately, by the time you develop this kind of
diabetes, your reproductive days are over, so your children don't get the
"Darwinian benefit" that they would get from a disease that killed you off
before you reached puberty. This is true of many of our diseases, and is why
our drug companies are doing a thriving business......:^)

cshenk
October 3rd 10, 03:51 PM
"Kelly Greene" wrote
> "Bill Graham" wrote

>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can, and
>> a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging you $2.00
>> a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that, and boneless
>> chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed my cats pure
>> chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it right along with
>> them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and carbs, and is very
>> good for diabetics, both human and feline.

> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives (internal
> organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and balanced?

He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
missing.

cshenk
October 3rd 10, 04:05 PM
"Kelly Greene" wrote
> "Bill Graham" wrote

>>> I'm sure genes count to some degree but the increase in type #2 is
>>> definitely following the obesity curve.

>> I agree wholeheartedly with this.....I have type II, but my parents did
>> not. But this is because I am a lot fatter than were they.

> There you have it! Too many people refuse to take responsibility for
> their poor food choices and unhealthy weight. They want to place blame
> somewhere else so blame heredity. I read that only 3% of type #2
> diabetics have a genetic component.

You read wrong. Not everything posted on the internet is true. Bill's
eaten too much and his parents havent so he has Type II. It wasn't _just_
eating that caused that or all overweight people would be diabetics.

> Indeed.... and another reason our Health Ins premiums are so high now.
> :-\ The same diet that causes diabetes also causes heart disease and
> strokes.

Age causes both, not just 'eating right or not'. Did you think if everyone
suddenly hit some mythical diet you have in mind, that all these things
would go away?

MaryL
October 3rd 10, 05:35 PM
"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "Kelly Greene" wrote
>> "Bill Graham" wrote
>
>>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can,
>>> and a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging you
>>> $2.00 a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that, and
>>> boneless chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed my
>>> cats pure chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it right
>>> along with them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and carbs,
>>> and is very good for diabetics, both human and feline.
>
>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>> balanced?
>
> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
> missing.
>

Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage of
good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced for the
needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact, just think how
unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all a hoomin ate.

MaryL

c~
October 3rd 10, 06:16 PM
From http://www.catinfo.org/#Common_Feline_Health_Problems_and_Their_Ties_to_D iet_

There is a very strong and extremely logical connection between the
way that we are currently feeding our obligate carnivores and many of
the life-threatening diseases that afflict them.

Diabetes: Diabetes is a very serious – and difficult to manage –
disease that is not uncommon in cats. We do not know all of the
causes of this complex disease but what we do know is that many
diabetic cats cease needing insulin or have their insulin needs
significantly decrease once their dietary carbohydrate level is
decreased to a more species-appropriate level than that found in many
commercial foods.

Given this fact, and given what we know about how the cat processes
carbohydrates, it is not a stretch to say that high carbohydrate diets
could very well be a significant factor in causing diabetes in some
cats.

Please see this thread on the Feline Diabetes Board to read about many
caregivers' success with their diabetic cats once all dry food and all
high carbohydrate canned food was removed from the diet.

In addition to the issue of carbohydrates and how they affect the
blood sugar level of some cats, dry food is very calorie dense, is
very palatable, and is usually free-fed. This often leads to obesity.

Fat cells produce a substance that makes the other cells in the body
resistant to insulin. This promotes the diabetic state.

It is very important to understand the impact that a low carbohydrate
diet has on the insulin needs of a diabetic cat.

If you have decided to start feeding your diabetic cat a low
carbohydrate diet, please do not change the diet until you review my
Feline Diabetes page otherwise you will be putting your cat in danger.

Please also be aware that many veterinarians underestimate the
favorable impact that a low carbohydrate diet has on the insulin needs
of the patient and they do not lower the insulin dose enough. If the
insulin is not lowered accordingly, an overdose of insulin will occur
which can be life-threatening. I strongly suggest that all caretakers
of diabetic cats home-test to monitor blood glucose levels using a
standard glucometer as a matter of routine, but careful monitoring is
especially important when implementing a diet change.

Many veterinarians prescribe expensive diets such as Purina DM
(Diabetes Management) and Science Diet m/d but you can do much better
for your cat (and your pocketbook) by feeding other more nutritious -
and lower carbohydrate - canned foods such as Merrick, Wellness,
Nature's Variety, EVO, etc. See the Proteins/Fats/Carbs chart. You
should aim for a diet that derives less than 10% of its calories from
carbohydrates

Patok[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 10:44 PM
Bill Graham wrote:
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with this.....I have type II, but my parents did
> not. But this is because I am a lot fatter than were they. My dad was a
> "meat & potatoes" type eater from the South, and they ate a relatively
> healthy diet. I, on the other hand, was exposed to very spicy foods when
> I joined the Navy and went overseas in my 20's, and have stuffed myself
> with rich, spicy, unhealthy foods all of my life, and I am sure that
> this is why I developed type II diabetes in my 60's. It is possible to
> overtax your glands with years of overeating, just as you can overtax
> your liver with years of excessive drinking. Unfortunately, by the time
> you develop this kind of diabetes, your reproductive days are over, so
> your children don't get the "Darwinian benefit" that they would get from
> a disease that killed you off before you reached puberty. This is true
> of many of our diseases, and is why our drug companies are doing a
> thriving business......:^)

I don't think I agree with you. As cshenk wrote, you had to have some
heredity, otherwise all fat people would be diabetic.
And secondly, I don't see what's more unhealthy in your "spicy foods"
compared to the "meat & potatoes" of your dad. If "spicy foods" was unhealthy,
all Indians, Thais and such would be diabetic. Unless I misunderstand what
exactly constitutes "rich, spicy, unhealthy foods" - maybe you'll elaborate.
From where I stand, there's nothing more unhealthy than large fries with coke,
and bleached flour buns with the burger, and donuts for dessert - and that
qualifies more as "meat & potatoes" than not.

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
--
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.

cshenk
October 3rd 10, 11:16 PM
"MaryL" wrote
> "cshenk" wrote

>>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>>> balanced?
>>
>> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
>> missing.

> Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage
> of good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced for
> the needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact, just
> think how unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all a
> hoomin ate.

Yup. Now taurine does occur naturally in some organ meats (I think it's
hearts?) but there's a host of other things that just feeding chicken breast
meat (or even thighs/legs) will miss.

Bill Graham
October 4th 10, 01:34 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can, and
>> a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging you $2.00
>> a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that, and boneless
>> chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed my cats pure
>> chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it right along with
>> them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and carbs, and is very
>> good for diabetics, both human and feline.
>
>
> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives (internal
> organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and balanced?
> --
Actually, when you consider all 5 of them, I offer them a variety of
foods.....They always have two kinds of dry food (kibbles)
available......Just in case we drop dead and they have to fend for
themselves for a week or more.....But we usually give them some canned wet
food too, because not all of them like the chicken. But fresh roasted
chicken is also available to all of them if they want it, and one of them
(the feral cat) eats it almost exclusively. (That's how I attracted him into
our house to begin with many years ago) He is very old now, and we do not
expect him to make it through another Winter. It's getting down to observing
and evaluating his quality of life from day to day, and deciding whether or
not to call the vet and have him put down almost on a daily basis.

Bill Graham
October 4th 10, 01:40 AM
"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "Kelly Greene" wrote
>> "Bill Graham" wrote
>
>>>> I'm sure genes count to some degree but the increase in type #2 is
>>>> definitely following the obesity curve.
>
>>> I agree wholeheartedly with this.....I have type II, but my parents did
>>> not. But this is because I am a lot fatter than were they.
>
>> There you have it! Too many people refuse to take responsibility for
>> their poor food choices and unhealthy weight. They want to place blame
>> somewhere else so blame heredity. I read that only 3% of type #2
>> diabetics have a genetic component.
>
> You read wrong. Not everything posted on the internet is true. Bill's
> eaten too much and his parents havent so he has Type II. It wasn't _just_
> eating that caused that or all overweight people would be diabetics.
>
>> Indeed.... and another reason our Health Ins premiums are so high now.
>> :-\ The same diet that causes diabetes also causes heart disease and
>> strokes.
>
> Age causes both, not just 'eating right or not'. Did you think if
> everyone suddenly hit some mythical diet you have in mind, that all these
> things would go away?
>
>

I am 75. I also love sweet stuff.....I have been eating candy bars, maple
syrup (I like the real stuff.....from Vermont or Canada) most of my
life......I figure my body has made pretty near all the insulin it
can.....But my dad died of Parkinsons when he was 80, so at 75 I am pretty
near all the way home......You know, none of us are going to live forever,
so just what is your point?

Bill Graham
October 4th 10, 01:48 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "cshenk" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Kelly Greene" wrote
>>> "Bill Graham" wrote
>>
>>>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can,
>>>> and a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging you
>>>> $2.00 a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that, and
>>>> boneless chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed my
>>>> cats pure chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it right
>>>> along with them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and carbs,
>>>> and is very good for diabetics, both human and feline.
>>
>>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>>> balanced?
>>
>> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
>> missing.
>>
>
> Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage
> of good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced for
> the needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact, just
> think how unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all a
> hoomin ate.
>
> MaryL

Well, meat wise, that's almost all we eat.....Of course, we also eat veggies
and potatoes/pasta. But we sure eat a lot of chicken......As a matter of
fact, the whole world eats a hell of a lot of chicken......I think that if
it weren't for chickens, pretty near half the world's Humans would starve to
death....Do you know anywhere that chicken isn't a main staple of peoples
diet? There are dozens of ways to fix it too.....We not only roast it, but
we fry it, teriyaki it, bar-b-q it, use honey-mustard sauces on it, grill
it, stuff it, boil it in spicy sauce....We even tried the Mexican way of
roasting it in solid salt once. (delicious, but too much trouble)

Bill Graham
October 4th 10, 02:06 AM
"Patok" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Graham wrote:
>>
>> I agree wholeheartedly with this.....I have type II, but my parents did
>> not. But this is because I am a lot fatter than were they. My dad was a
>> "meat & potatoes" type eater from the South, and they ate a relatively
>> healthy diet. I, on the other hand, was exposed to very spicy foods when
>> I joined the Navy and went overseas in my 20's, and have stuffed myself
>> with rich, spicy, unhealthy foods all of my life, and I am sure that this
>> is why I developed type II diabetes in my 60's. It is possible to overtax
>> your glands with years of overeating, just as you can overtax your liver
>> with years of excessive drinking. Unfortunately, by the time you develop
>> this kind of diabetes, your reproductive days are over, so your children
>> don't get the "Darwinian benefit" that they would get from a disease that
>> killed you off before you reached puberty. This is true of many of our
>> diseases, and is why our drug companies are doing a thriving
>> business......:^)
>
> I don't think I agree with you. As cshenk wrote, you had to have some
> heredity, otherwise all fat people would be diabetic.
> And secondly, I don't see what's more unhealthy in your "spicy foods"
> compared to the "meat & potatoes" of your dad. If "spicy foods" was
> unhealthy, all Indians, Thais and such would be diabetic. Unless I
> misunderstand what exactly constitutes "rich, spicy, unhealthy foods" -
> maybe you'll elaborate. From where I stand, there's nothing more unhealthy
> than large fries with coke, and bleached flour buns with the burger, and
> donuts for dessert - and that qualifies more as "meat & potatoes" than
> not.
>
Well, my favorite food is Chinese......(American style) Someone once said,
"Instead of eating Chinese, lets just take a cup of sugar, a cup of salt,
and a cup of oil.....Put it in a blender and whiz it up, and drink it! We
would get about the same food value, and it would cost a lot less
money......

Bill Graham
October 4th 10, 02:10 AM
"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "MaryL" wrote
>> "cshenk" wrote
>
>>>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>>>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>>>> balanced?
>>>
>>> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
>>> missing.
>
>> Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage
>> of good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced
>> for the needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact, just
>> think how unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all a
>> hoomin ate.
>
> Yup. Now taurine does occur naturally in some organ meats (I think it's
> hearts?) but there's a host of other things that just feeding chicken
> breast meat (or even thighs/legs) will miss.
>
None of my cats eat "just" anything....They pretty much eat a little bit of
everything.....For one thing, they are outside cats, and most of them eat at
the neighbors houses as often as they do at home.....It's kind of like,
"eating out" to them.....:^)

MaryL
October 5th 10, 08:10 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "cshenk" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Kelly Greene" wrote
>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote
>>>
>>>>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can,
>>>>> and a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging
>>>>> you $2.00 a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that,
>>>>> and boneless chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed
>>>>> my cats pure chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it
>>>>> right along with them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat and
>>>>> carbs, and is very good for diabetics, both human and feline.
>>>
>>>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>>>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>>>> balanced?
>>>
>>> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
>>> missing.
>>>
>>
>> Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage
>> of good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced
>> for the needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact, just
>> think how unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all a
>> hoomin ate.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> Well, meat wise, that's almost all we eat.....Of course, we also eat
> veggies and potatoes/pasta. But we sure eat a lot of chicken......As a
> matter of fact, the whole world eats a hell of a lot of chicken......I
> think that if it weren't for chickens, pretty near half the world's Humans
> would starve to death....Do you know anywhere that chicken isn't a main
> staple of peoples diet? There are dozens of ways to fix it too.....We not
> only roast it, but we fry it, teriyaki it, bar-b-q it, use honey-mustard
> sauces on it, grill it, stuff it, boil it in spicy sauce....We even tried
> the Mexican way of roasting it in solid salt once. (delicious, but too
> much trouble)

Yes, but there's more than meat in your diet--veggies (as you said) and
surely fruit, grains, eggs, possibly dairy, etc. A cat needs a diet that
has a different balance than we need. Definitely *not* grains, but taurine
is essential, to give just one example.

MaryL

Bill Graham
October 6th 10, 12:12 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "cshenk" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Kelly Greene" wrote
>>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote
>>>>
>>>>>> No, but it should be pretty simple.....Cat food costs 50 cents a can,
>>>>>> and a can is only 4 ounces or less.....That means they are charging
>>>>>> you $2.00 a pound.....I can buy whole chickens for about half that,
>>>>>> and boneless chicken breasts for the same 2 bucks a pound. So, I feed
>>>>>> my cats pure chicken....They love it, and my wife and I can eat it
>>>>>> right along with them. Chicken meat is high in protein, low in fat
>>>>>> and carbs, and is very good for diabetics, both human and feline.
>>>>
>>>>> How long have they been on pure chicken and do you use additives
>>>>> (internal organs, calcium/bone meal etc) to make it complete and
>>>>> balanced?
>>>>
>>>> He better be as that is a very unbalanced diet. Taurine is obviously
>>>> missing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes! That was my first thought when I read that message. One advantage
>>> of good-quality commercial canned cat food is that it will be balanced
>>> for the needs of a cat--not dogs, people, etc. As a matter of fact,
>>> just think how unbalanced a diet of pure chicken would be if that is all
>>> a hoomin ate.
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>
>> Well, meat wise, that's almost all we eat.....Of course, we also eat
>> veggies and potatoes/pasta. But we sure eat a lot of chicken......As a
>> matter of fact, the whole world eats a hell of a lot of chicken......I
>> think that if it weren't for chickens, pretty near half the world's
>> Humans would starve to death....Do you know anywhere that chicken isn't a
>> main staple of peoples diet? There are dozens of ways to fix it
>> too.....We not only roast it, but we fry it, teriyaki it, bar-b-q it, use
>> honey-mustard sauces on it, grill it, stuff it, boil it in spicy
>> sauce....We even tried the Mexican way of roasting it in solid salt once.
>> (delicious, but too much trouble)
>
> Yes, but there's more than meat in your diet--veggies (as you said) and
> surely fruit, grains, eggs, possibly dairy, etc. A cat needs a diet that
> has a different balance than we need. Definitely *not* grains, but
> taurine is essential, to give just one example.
>
> MaryL

Well, my cats eat a great variety of foods, and I'm sure they get enough
taurine......If they didn't, they would have vision problems, and none of my
cats have ever become blind, or even had any problems at all with their
vision.....for one thing, they get all the kibbles they want, and it
contains .1% taurine by law. Also, taurine is contained in most meats, and I
doubt if chicken is any exception. I suppose I could buy is as a seperate
additive and sprinkle it on their bowles of chicken, but I haven't done this
to date.....
>

MaryL
October 6th 10, 04:43 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> Yes, but there's more than meat in your diet--veggies (as you said) and
>> surely fruit, grains, eggs, possibly dairy, etc. A cat needs a diet that
>> has a different balance than we need. Definitely *not* grains, but
>> taurine is essential, to give just one example.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> Well, my cats eat a great variety of foods, and I'm sure they get enough
> taurine......If they didn't, they would have vision problems, and none of
> my cats have ever become blind, or even had any problems at all with their
> vision.....for one thing, they get all the kibbles they want, and it
> contains .1% taurine by law. Also, taurine is contained in most meats, and
> I doubt if chicken is any exception. I suppose I could buy is as a
> seperate additive and sprinkle it on their bowles of chicken, but I
> haven't done this to date.....
>>
>

I think I misinterpreted your earlier statement. When you said you feed
your cats "pure chicken," I thought you were trying to feed your cats a 100%
chicken diet that you prepared yourself. That would clearly be deficient in
taurine and other nutrients that cats need, but now I see that you did not
mean that they receive "only" chicken. Incidentally, I don't use any kibble
at all, but I do feed canned food (especially Wellness) on a 12-hour
schedule.

MaryL

Bill Graham
October 8th 10, 01:18 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but there's more than meat in your diet--veggies (as you said) and
>>> surely fruit, grains, eggs, possibly dairy, etc. A cat needs a diet
>>> that has a different balance than we need. Definitely *not* grains, but
>>> taurine is essential, to give just one example.
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>
>> Well, my cats eat a great variety of foods, and I'm sure they get enough
>> taurine......If they didn't, they would have vision problems, and none of
>> my cats have ever become blind, or even had any problems at all with
>> their vision.....for one thing, they get all the kibbles they want, and
>> it contains .1% taurine by law. Also, taurine is contained in most meats,
>> and I doubt if chicken is any exception. I suppose I could buy is as a
>> seperate additive and sprinkle it on their bowles of chicken, but I
>> haven't done this to date.....
>>>
>>
>
> I think I misinterpreted your earlier statement. When you said you feed
> your cats "pure chicken," I thought you were trying to feed your cats a
> 100% chicken diet that you prepared yourself. That would clearly be
> deficient in taurine and other nutrients that cats need, but now I see
> that you did not mean that they receive "only" chicken. Incidentally, I
> don't use any kibble at all, but I do feed canned food (especially
> Wellness) on a 12-hour schedule.
>
> MaryL

Yeah, my cats are outside cats, and they regularly make the rounds of all
the neighbors and eat whatever they can get....I don't really exercise a
hell of a lot of control over their diet. but, I do feed them a lot of
chicken, mainly because they like it, and its cheap. I think if there were
no chickens in this world, about half the human and pet population would
starve to death....:^)

Bill Graham
October 8th 10, 02:28 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Well, my cats eat a great variety of foods, and I'm sure they get enough
>> taurine......If they didn't, they would have vision problems, and none of
>> my cats have ever become blind, or even had any problems at all with
>> their vision.....for one thing, they get all the kibbles they want, and
>> it contains .1% taurine by law. Also, taurine is contained in most meats,
>> and I doubt if chicken is any exception. I suppose I could buy is as a
>> seperate additive and sprinkle it on their bowles of chicken, but I
>> haven't done this to date.....
>>>
>
> PetsMart carries an additive that contains taurine. I sprinkle it over
> the chicken or beef or whatever they get that's not a commercial canned
> cat food. It's called MissingLink. Most days they do get a commercial
> canned food.

It's just that the commercial canned food is so expensive......50 cents for
about 3 ounces of that terrible looking stuff that's obviously just the
floor sweepings from a food canning plant.....When I can do so much better
by buying whole chickens.....

About three years ago, I was in Safeway looking at stuff, and they had a
sale on canned tuna fish (for people) it was only 40 cents a can. Since the
cat food was 50 cents a can, I bought several cans of this stuff for my
cats.....When I got home, I opened up a can, and it was so bad even the cats
wouldn't eat it! I ended up throwing them all away....:^) There is a reason
why Safeway was voted the worst super chain in the country several years in
a row.....It certainly is the worst one here in Salem, Oregon, and when I
think of all the supermarkets I have dealt with in my life, mostly in
California, The Safeway's stand out in my mind as being the worst of the
bunch.....

Bill Graham
October 8th 10, 02:43 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Actually, when you consider all 5 of them, I offer them a variety of
>> foods.....They always have two kinds of dry food (kibbles)
>> available......Just in case we drop dead and they have to fend for
>> themselves for a week or more.....But we usually give them some canned
>> wet food too, because not all of them like the chicken. But fresh roasted
>> chicken is also available to all of them if they want it, and one of them
>> (the feral cat) eats it almost exclusively. (That's how I attracted him
>> into our house to begin with many years ago) He is very old now, and we
>> do not expect him to make it through another Winter. It's getting down to
>> observing and evaluating his quality of life from day to day, and
>> deciding whether or not to call the vet and have him put down almost on a
>> daily basis.
>
>
> The poor little guy. :*(
>
> OK, I understand about the food now.

Actually, I have kind of a fear of exercising too much control over my cats
lives.....Or any pets lives, for that matter. I mean, if you were to make a
mistake, and your pet couldn't forage for himself, then they could die
because of your error, or the error of the pet food manufacturer. I remember
a case many years ago, of a hospital in New York when I was just a
kid.....They got the salt mixed up with the sugar in their kitchen, and a
bunch of new born babies died as a result of being fed the salted formula
without it being tasted by the nurses before feeding them. If your pets are
strictly prevented from eating anything but what you provide for them, then
the same kind of error could result in their deaths. I know its unlikely,
but its a responsibility that I don't want, personally. I guess its part of
my general philosophy of life.....We all have to die sooner or later, so I
don't worry about them being too fat, or getting run over, or killed by a
big dog or whatever. And, while I wouldn't intentionally make them sick, I
let them eat pretty much a great variety of stuff, and don't attempt to
exercise too much control over their lives. I know there are others who
disagree with me on this, and want to insure that their cats live as long as
is possible, but it just isn't my thing.......I don't take care of myself
too well either, and for much the same reasons......I guess you could say
that when it come to living, I consider quality to be much more important
than quantity......

Bill Graham
October 10th 10, 08:49 PM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Actually, I have kind of a fear of exercising too much control over my
>> cats lives.....Or any pets lives, for that matter. I mean, if you were to
>> make a mistake, and your pet couldn't forage for himself, then they could
>> die because of your error, or the error of the pet food manufacturer. I
>> remember a case many years ago, of a hospital in New York when I was just
>> a kid.....They got the salt mixed up with the sugar in their kitchen, and
>> a bunch of new born babies died as a result of being fed the salted
>> formula without it being tasted by the nurses before feeding them. If
>> your pets are strictly prevented from eating anything but what you
>> provide for them, then the same kind of error could result in their
>> deaths. I know its unlikely, but its a responsibility that I don't want,
>> personally. I guess its part of my general philosophy of life.....We all
>> have to die sooner or later, so I don't worry about them being too fat,
>> or getting run over, or killed by a big dog or whatever. And, while I
>> wouldn't intentionally make them sick, I let them eat pretty much a great
>> variety of stuff, and don't attempt to exercise too much control over
>> their lives. I know there are others who disagree with me on this, and
>> want to insure that their cats live as long as is possible, but it just
>> isn't my thing.......I don't take care of myself too well either, and for
>> much the same reasons......I guess you could say that when it come to
>> living, I consider quality to be much more important than quantity......
>
>
> To each his or her own. I know if I let my cats outside where I live they
> would soon be gone. My neighbor's cat lasted 7 years before something
> happened to it. That's almost unheard of here where we are, out in the
> woods/boondocks. My husband and I would be devastated if something
> happened to one of our cats.


So......Does this mean that you keep them inside for yourselves, rather than
for the cats?.......Just asking....:^)

I really sympathize with your position......I would probably rest easier if
I always knew where my cats were, too. Whenever I come home after a day or
several hours away from the house, I check up on them and want to know where
they all are. On the other hand, when I am gone, I know that they can get
out of the house should they need to do so, and this gives me some
comfort.....But there is no way around it. If you keep pets, you will have
to worry about them one way or the other.....I guess that's part of
life....The only way to never have to worry about anyone else is to have no
friends, and who wants to live like that?

Bill Graham
October 17th 10, 01:20 AM
"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Actually, when you consider all 5 of them, I offer them a variety of
>> foods.....They always have two kinds of dry food (kibbles)
>> available......Just in case we drop dead and they have to fend for
>> themselves for a week or more.....But we usually give them some canned
>> wet food too, because not all of them like the chicken. But fresh roasted
>> chicken is also available to all of them if they want it, and one of them
>> (the feral cat) eats it almost exclusively. (That's how I attracted him
>> into our house to begin with many years ago) He is very old now, and we
>> do not expect him to make it through another Winter. It's getting down to
>> observing and evaluating his quality of life from day to day, and
>> deciding whether or not to call the vet and have him put down almost on a
>> daily basis.
>
>
> The poor little guy. :*(
>
> OK, I understand about the food now.

An update on Smokey.....He has taken to living in my wife's bathroom.....She
keeps a cat box on the floor there, and feeds him in there......He likes it
there because there are no fleas there. (Fleas hate living on tile, and need
a rug to hide in) Smokey's skin has all cleared up and he is feeling much
better....He is very allergic to fleas.....Perhaps he will last through
another Winter after all........

dgk
October 18th 10, 07:13 PM
On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:20:08 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>
>"Kelly Greene" > wrote in message
...
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Actually, when you consider all 5 of them, I offer them a variety of
>>> foods.....They always have two kinds of dry food (kibbles)
>>> available......Just in case we drop dead and they have to fend for
>>> themselves for a week or more.....But we usually give them some canned
>>> wet food too, because not all of them like the chicken. But fresh roasted
>>> chicken is also available to all of them if they want it, and one of them
>>> (the feral cat) eats it almost exclusively. (That's how I attracted him
>>> into our house to begin with many years ago) He is very old now, and we
>>> do not expect him to make it through another Winter. It's getting down to
>>> observing and evaluating his quality of life from day to day, and
>>> deciding whether or not to call the vet and have him put down almost on a
>>> daily basis.
>>
>>
>> The poor little guy. :*(
>>
>> OK, I understand about the food now.
>
>An update on Smokey.....He has taken to living in my wife's bathroom.....She
>keeps a cat box on the floor there, and feeds him in there......He likes it
>there because there are no fleas there. (Fleas hate living on tile, and need
>a rug to hide in) Smokey's skin has all cleared up and he is feeling much
>better....He is very allergic to fleas.....Perhaps he will last through
>another Winter after all........

Yes, life without fleas has to be better than life with fleas. I'm
glad there is progress. I read about so many cats in various kinds of
trouble on these groups and it's always nice to read that something is
getting better.

bill
October 26th 10, 12:30 AM
On Sep 25, 6:13*pm, catlady > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 1:23*pm, bill > wrote:
> > Switching insulin brands can be a serious problem. *A number of years
> > back I can't remember the brand, but word went out that this was no
> > longer going to be available. *So the vet switched to Vetsulin.
> > Something went badly wrong. *The cat crashed. *And it was really
> > expensive pulling him back from that.
>
> > Now this year they have announced the Vetsulin supply has been cut off
> > and I scored what I think were the last two bottles in town. *If you
> > Google for Vetsulin you can find all sorts of people who seem to have
> > had serious problems with that. *I don't know, maybe I've been lucky,
> > but I don't think I've seen any of those problems in years of using
> > that. *However I've almost exhausted the last of my Vetsulin stash and
> > will have to go through another switch in the next few weeks. *I'm
> > leaning in the direction of seeing if I can get non prescription
> > Humulin from Walmart of Walgreens. *If anyone has any good information
> > and hands on experience for what to substitute for Vetsulin porcine
> > U-40, preferably non prescription, that will hopefully not be pulled
> > off the shelves in a couple of years I would really appreciate the
> > information.
>
> > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
> > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate. *
>
> EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
> can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
> diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
> a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
> fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.

I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
replace Vetsulin. I watched all the example videos on using blood
glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. With every one he
bacame more combative. I finally decided I would never be able to get
a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
have a very difficult time getting blood from him.

I got 10 cc non prescription Humulin N U100 from Walmart for $24.88.
When there were only a couple of days of Vetsulin left I switched from
0.09 cc twice a day Vetsulin U40 to 0.03 cc Humulin the first
morning. When he seemed completely indifferent to this I raised the
second dose of th day to 0.036 cc twice a day (40% of the 0.09 cc
because the U100 is 2.5x the concentration of the U40 Vetsulin).
Years ago he had been on Humulin U100 before the switch to Vetsulin,
and he crashed during that switch for reasons that were never found.
The plan was to watch carefully, take him to the vet if he crashed,
and otherwise let him stabilize on the Humulin and get a fructosamine
test after a month to dial in the final dose. For six days I watched
his every move and he seemed unchanged. I thought it was a miracle I
had made it through the insulin switch.

This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
and watched and waited. He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
and seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he
was down hard and could not stand. I took him to the vet. Temperature
was normal. He managed to get a blood sample. Glucose was down to
30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
in case an infection might have been the cause.

With the glucose and fluids he is up and eating and seeming like
nothing, except that vet trip, ever happened.

So at this point mostly all the vet and I have are unanswered
questions.

Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did
the insulin get into the blood stream rather than the fat last night?
Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash? Was he just
accomodating the insulin change for 6 days and finally couldn't
accomodate any more? Was the insulin not quite (gently) mixed well
enough on the last dose? Is the unit-for-unit calculation wrong? Or
are there other unknowns responsible? The glucose test result was
useful, that explained what the situation was but not why. I'm
guessing the fructosamine test is going to be wasted money because
most of the window that covers is going to reflect the Vetsulin and
the rest of the result will be corrupted by the unknown Humulin
influence. Has anyone else gone through this? There must be a bunch
of people who have done this. Does anyone have any dose ratio between
Vetsulin and Humulin N U100 that worked?

If anyone has any input ***specifically dealing with helping a cat get
through the transition from Vetsulin to Humulin*** I'd love to see it.

Thank you

cshenk
October 26th 10, 10:01 PM
"bill" wrote
Catlady said:

>> > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
>> > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate.

>> EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
>> can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
>> diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
>> a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
>> fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.

Bill, check with your Vet on this one just to be sure of the %. Relatively
recent information for *humans* with type II diabetes is that carbs in the
right type and concentration are actually good. The problem for humans is
what consitutes a 'good one' varies quite widely. For more on the human
diabetes angle, I suggest alt.support.diabetes. One of the more informative
support groups (although like most, they have the flamers that erupt from
time to time).

In fact, I just asked if any there have a diabetic cat and can help you
here. There is the potential they may know more on this even for cats and
can provide some insight. You never know! Some *may* crosspost to here so
be sure your reader allows 1 added group is so. If you can't do that, let
us know and one of us can copy it over to you.

> I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
> replace Vetsulin. I watched all the example videos on using blood
> glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. With every one he
> bacame more combative. I finally decided I would never be able to get
> a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
> have a very difficult time getting blood from him.

I asked specifically over in the diabetes group, if any with a diabetic cat
had tips on getting a good sample and so you may get a few ideas that are
new to try.

> This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
> the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
> done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
> and watched and waited. He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
> and seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he
> was down hard and could not stand. I took him to the vet. Temperature
> was normal. He managed to get a blood sample. Glucose was down to
> 30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
> hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
> would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
> fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
> in case an infection might have been the cause.

> Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did

That seems easy. If his previous vomiting wasn't in those 6 days, he's now
got a faster reacting insulin and the loss of the food caused him to go
hypoglycemic when the insulin hit.

> Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash?

I'm a little confused. "He ate well, took the next dose of insulin and
seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he was down
hard and could not stand." IE: he ate, got insulin then threw up a meal and
an hour later crashed. This looks like an immedite almost feed and insulin,
threw up, then 1 hour later crash. Not 8 hours. Could you clarify?

catlady
October 26th 10, 10:12 PM
On Oct 25, 6:30*pm, bill > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 6:13*pm, catlady > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 25, 1:23*pm, bill > wrote:
> > > Switching insulin brands can be a serious problem. *A number of years
> > > back I can't remember the brand, but word went out that this was no
> > > longer going to be available. *So the vet switched to Vetsulin.
> > > Something went badly wrong. *The cat crashed. *And it was really
> > > expensive pulling him back from that.
>
> > > Now this year they have announced the Vetsulin supply has been cut off
> > > and I scored what I think were the last two bottles in town. *If you
> > > Google for Vetsulin you can find all sorts of people who seem to have
> > > had serious problems with that. *I don't know, maybe I've been lucky,
> > > but I don't think I've seen any of those problems in years of using
> > > that. *However I've almost exhausted the last of my Vetsulin stash and
> > > will have to go through another switch in the next few weeks. *I'm
> > > leaning in the direction of seeing if I can get non prescription
> > > Humulin from Walmart of Walgreens. *If anyone has any good information
> > > and hands on experience for what to substitute for Vetsulin porcine
> > > U-40, preferably non prescription, that will hopefully not be pulled
> > > off the shelves in a couple of years I would really appreciate the
> > > information.
>
> > > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
> > > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate. *
>
> > EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
> > can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
> > diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
> > a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
> > fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.
>
> I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
> replace Vetsulin. *I watched all the example videos on using blood
> glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. *With every one he
> bacame more combative. *I finally decided I would never be able to get
> a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
> have a very difficult time getting blood from him.
>
> I got 10 cc non prescription Humulin N U100 from Walmart for $24.88.
> When there were only a couple of days of Vetsulin left I switched from
> 0.09 cc twice a day Vetsulin U40 to 0.03 cc Humulin the first
> morning. *When he seemed completely indifferent to this I raised the
> second dose of th day to 0.036 cc twice a day (40% of the 0.09 cc
> because the U100 is 2.5x the concentration of the U40 Vetsulin).
> Years ago he had been on Humulin U100 before the switch to Vetsulin,
> and he crashed during that switch for reasons that were never found.
> The plan was to watch carefully, take him to the vet if he crashed,
> and otherwise let him stabilize on the Humulin and get a fructosamine
> test after a month to dial in the final dose. *For six days I watched
> his every move and he seemed unchanged. I thought it was a miracle I
> had made it through the insulin switch.
>
> This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
> the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
> done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
> and watched and waited. *He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
> and seemed ok. *Then he vomited and pooped again. *An hour later he
> was down hard and could not stand. *I took him to the vet. Temperature
> was normal. *He managed to get a blood sample. *Glucose was down to
> 30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
> hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
> would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
> fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
> in case an infection might have been the cause.
>
> With the glucose and fluids he is up and eating and seeming like
> nothing, except that vet trip, ever happened.
>
> So at this point mostly all the vet and I have are unanswered
> questions.
>
> Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did
> the insulin get into the blood stream rather than the fat last night?
> Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash? Was he just
> accomodating the insulin change for 6 days and finally couldn't
> accomodate any more? Was the insulin not quite (gently) mixed well
> enough on the last dose? Is the unit-for-unit calculation wrong? Or
> are there other unknowns responsible? The glucose test result was
> useful, that explained what the situation was but not why. I'm
> guessing the fructosamine test is going to be wasted money because
> most of the window that covers is going to reflect the Vetsulin and
> the rest of the result will be corrupted by the unknown Humulin
> influence. *Has anyone else gone through this? There must be a bunch
> of people who have done this. Does anyone have any dose ratio between
> Vetsulin and Humulin N U100 that worked?
>
> If anyone has any input ***specifically dealing with helping a cat get
> through the transition from Vetsulin to Humulin*** I'd love to see it.
>
> Thank you- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that you should be using Humulin in a
diabetic cat!!!!! WTF are you doing? It is very short acting and is
not recommended by any veterinarian that has one clue about feline
diabetes. If you want your cat to end up having a ketoacidotic crisis
and further kidney damage from poor regulation by all means contiunue
exactly what you're doing now. Vetsulin is worthless for cats as well,
unless of course you want to keep your cat diabetic. I will say this
again- Lantus insulin is the first choice of insulin for cats and it
is not unheard of for even long term diabetics to go in remission
provided the cat is fed a very low carb, grain free diet and its
numbers are kept in the normal (70-120) range. As to your difficulty
hometesting, it gets easier the more it is done, and it is important
to reward the cat with a treat each time. I have had plenty of clients
who stated out having difficulty with hometesting, but like with many
things there is a learning curve, and eventually every single one of
these people succeeded. If you are determined to screw around with
your cats treatment and cause it harm, you should find him a home with
someone that cares more about the cat than convenience and cash.

catlady
October 26th 10, 10:16 PM
On Oct 25, 6:30*pm, bill > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 6:13*pm, catlady > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 25, 1:23*pm, bill > wrote:
> > > Switching insulin brands can be a serious problem. *A number of years
> > > back I can't remember the brand, but word went out that this was no
> > > longer going to be available. *So the vet switched to Vetsulin.
> > > Something went badly wrong. *The cat crashed. *And it was really
> > > expensive pulling him back from that.
>
> > > Now this year they have announced the Vetsulin supply has been cut off
> > > and I scored what I think were the last two bottles in town. *If you
> > > Google for Vetsulin you can find all sorts of people who seem to have
> > > had serious problems with that. *I don't know, maybe I've been lucky,
> > > but I don't think I've seen any of those problems in years of using
> > > that. *However I've almost exhausted the last of my Vetsulin stash and
> > > will have to go through another switch in the next few weeks. *I'm
> > > leaning in the direction of seeing if I can get non prescription
> > > Humulin from Walmart of Walgreens. *If anyone has any good information
> > > and hands on experience for what to substitute for Vetsulin porcine
> > > U-40, preferably non prescription, that will hopefully not be pulled
> > > off the shelves in a couple of years I would really appreciate the
> > > information.
>
> > > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
> > > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate. *
>
> > EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
> > can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
> > diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
> > a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
> > fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.
>
> I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
> replace Vetsulin. *I watched all the example videos on using blood
> glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. *With every one he
> bacame more combative. *I finally decided I would never be able to get
> a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
> have a very difficult time getting blood from him.
>
> I got 10 cc non prescription Humulin N U100 from Walmart for $24.88.
> When there were only a couple of days of Vetsulin left I switched from
> 0.09 cc twice a day Vetsulin U40 to 0.03 cc Humulin the first
> morning. *When he seemed completely indifferent to this I raised the
> second dose of th day to 0.036 cc twice a day (40% of the 0.09 cc
> because the U100 is 2.5x the concentration of the U40 Vetsulin).
> Years ago he had been on Humulin U100 before the switch to Vetsulin,
> and he crashed during that switch for reasons that were never found.
> The plan was to watch carefully, take him to the vet if he crashed,
> and otherwise let him stabilize on the Humulin and get a fructosamine
> test after a month to dial in the final dose. *For six days I watched
> his every move and he seemed unchanged. I thought it was a miracle I
> had made it through the insulin switch.
>
> This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
> the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
> done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
> and watched and waited. *He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
> and seemed ok. *Then he vomited and pooped again. *An hour later he
> was down hard and could not stand. *I took him to the vet. Temperature
> was normal. *He managed to get a blood sample. *Glucose was down to
> 30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
> hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
> would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
> fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
> in case an infection might have been the cause.
>
> With the glucose and fluids he is up and eating and seeming like
> nothing, except that vet trip, ever happened.
>
> So at this point mostly all the vet and I have are unanswered
> questions.
>
> Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did
> the insulin get into the blood stream rather than the fat last night?
> Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash? Was he just
> accomodating the insulin change for 6 days and finally couldn't
> accomodate any more? Was the insulin not quite (gently) mixed well
> enough on the last dose? Is the unit-for-unit calculation wrong? Or
> are there other unknowns responsible? The glucose test result was
> useful, that explained what the situation was but not why. I'm
> guessing the fructosamine test is going to be wasted money because
> most of the window that covers is going to reflect the Vetsulin and
> the rest of the result will be corrupted by the unknown Humulin
> influence. *Has anyone else gone through this? There must be a bunch
> of people who have done this. Does anyone have any dose ratio between
> Vetsulin and Humulin N U100 that worked?
>
> If anyone has any input ***specifically dealing with helping a cat get
> through the transition from Vetsulin to Humulin*** I'd love to see it.
>
> Thank you- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

From the felinediabetes.com website:

"At one time, the insulin of choice for cats was Humulin NPH (N). This
is an insulin with the molecular structure of human insulin and is
very valuable in the treatment of human diabetes. It is a poor choice
in treating feline diabetes although a number of veterinarians still
aren't aware of newer choices. Deborah Greco, DVM, Ph.D., a leading
world expert in the treatment of feline diabetes, bluntly stated as
early as 2005, “There is no rationale at all for using NPH (N insulin)
at all in a cat. Period.” Dr. Greco says this is because onset of
action and peak of action times are totally variable in cats with N,
even in the same cat."

catlady
October 26th 10, 10:27 PM
On Oct 26, 4:01*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
> "bill" wrote
> Catlady said:
>
> >> > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
> >> > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate.
> >> EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
> >> can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
> >> diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
> >> a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
> >> fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.
>
> Bill, check with your Vet on this one just to be sure of the %. *Relatively
> recent information for *humans* with type II diabetes is that carbs in the
> right type and concentration are actually good. *

Cats are not people, and carbs are NOT good for cats, especially
diabetic cats. Cats do just fine with no carbs in their diet and in
the wild would ingest very little, and certainly not the amount that
is contained in ANY dry food. Even so-called "low carb" dry food is
anything but and you won't get the control or remission feeding this
type of food that you do with grain free low carb diets. I work for a
vet clinic as a technician and my specialty (and passion) is working
with diabetic cats and their owners doing a program that gets them
into remission. I have been doing this for over 10 years. I know of
what I speak. It's quite obvious you have no experience with diabetes
in cats or the protocol required for regulation and remission, so you
really have no business offering dietary advice, especially when you
do something as ridicuous as apply something that may apply to humans
to a cat.

bill
October 27th 10, 02:06 AM
On Oct 26, 1:01 pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
> "bill" wrote
> > I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
> > replace Vetsulin. I watched all the example videos on using blood
> > glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. With every one he
> > bacame more combative. I finally decided I would never be able to get
> > a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
> > have a very difficult time getting blood from him.
>
> I asked specifically over in the diabetes group, if any with a diabetic cat
> had tips on getting a good sample and so you may get a few ideas that are
> new to try.
>
> > This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
> > the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
> > done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
> > and watched and waited. He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
> > and seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he
> > was down hard and could not stand. I took him to the vet. Temperature
> > was normal. He managed to get a blood sample. Glucose was down to
> > 30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
> > hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
> > would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
> > fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
> > in case an infection might have been the cause.
> > Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did
>
> That seems easy. If his previous vomiting wasn't in those 6 days, he's now
> got a faster reacting insulin and the loss of the food caused him to go
> hypoglycemic when the insulin hit.
>
> > Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash?
>
> I'm a little confused. "He ate well, took the next dose of insulin and
> seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he was down
> hard and could not stand." IE: he ate, got insulin then threw up a meal and
> an hour later crashed. This looks like an immedite almost feed and insulin,
> threw up, then 1 hour later crash. Not 8 hours. Could you clarify?

Here is a timeline to try to more precisely describe what happened:

The cat was given a home long ago after having been left in an
apartment with no food for about a week when the owner moved away. A
dozen years later the cat still panics if there isn't enough to cover
the bottom of the food dish at all times or if boxes start going out
the door. If there is a part of a dish he will gag down everything in
it, no matter how much he recently ate, and then really freak out. If
the dish is full enough he will nibble just a bit and then walk away.

Perhaps 10-12 years ago the cat was given a big dose of dexamethasone
by one vet. All kinds of problems soon afterwards and finally realized
he was now diabetic.

We went to what we were told was the best vet in the city, of just
over a million, for diabetic cats. He put us on Humulin U Ultralente.
5-8 years of that with fairly good success and only one crash, maybe
unrelated. Then the vets were told this wasn't available or to switch
or ? and we were switched to Vetsulin. He crashed immediately. Never
was able to determine why, but we finally got him stabilized on
Vetsulin.

3-5 years of Vetsulin .09 cc twice a day with excellent success and no
crashes. Up to a couple of years ago he was on Purina DM and Science
Diet WD kibbles I think. A couple of years ago he had dental problems
and teeth removed and we were switched entirely to Wellness wet food
given out twice a day, he eats when he wants it. A few months ago I
added in a teaspoon of Evo kibbles spread throughout the day.

Then the vets were told Vetsulin was pulled off the market because of
severe problems reported. Google vetsulin problem and you see a
sample of the reports. Fortunately I don't believe I'm seeing the
acute problems with Vetsulin that others are reporting. And I scored
what I believe were the last two bottles in the city and spent two
months looking for information. The vet said that none of the vets
really knew what to do next and that everyone was facing the problem,
let him know what I found. He said there are also issues with insulin
becoming non-prescription and that limits what information can be
given. With all this I finally settled on Humulin N which I thought
was the longest acting and closest available to to the previous
Humulin U, which multiple pharmacists tell me is no longer available.

Monday a week ago Vetsulin almost exhausted and I repeatedly tried to
get blood for handheld glucose meter. Planned to get one at the time
of feeding and one part way between and thought I would be lucky to do
that. After half a dozen increasingly combative attempts I finally
gave up on that and he got the two doses of Vetsulin on schedule.
Daily Teaspoon of Evo kibbles stopped.

Tuesday morning a week ago gave him .03 cc Humulin N. He seemed
perfectly normal so evening dose was raised to 0.036 cc.

Wed,Thu,Fri,Sat,Sun twice a day, early and late, 0.036 cc Humulin N.
No adverse effects seen during any of this, seemed entirely normal.
Thought I had a success.

Monday morning 6 a.m. crying , pooped on the floor, vomited once, but
he was walking. Since he has done that now and then in the past I
assumed something disagreed with his digestion and he was emptying the
gut. Afterwards he is always starving and so fed him breakfast and
gave him the morning Humulin. Again he vomited and pooped on the
floor, but he was still up and walking. This was a little more
worrysome, but again I estimated he was getting rid of something in
the gut. A couple of hours later he was pooping on the floor again
and down so off to the vet he went at about noon.

From the sounds from the back room the vet was having about average
success trying to get a blood sample, even as compromised as he was,
but the vet did finally succeed. Glucose at 30. Fructosamine test
sent out, that came back today and the value is exactly in the middle
of the well regulated range, as it has been every year for years. But
I believe that last result mostly reflects the 3 weeks of Vetsulin
prior to the Humulin. With IV fluids and glucose in a couple of hours
he was acting like nothing happened, other than staying well away from
me because I put him in the carrier and took him to the vet.

I was given a tiny supply of Vetsulin to pull him off the Humulin and
try to regroup and figure out what to do next.

So in hindsight between the vet and I, here is the best guess of what
happened. Very late Sunday night and early monday morning, long after
feeding and Humulin, the insulin level was high and glucose was low,
but for some reason this didn't seem to really take hold until 6 a.m.
Monday, perhaps 8 hours after the last Humulin. I misinterpreted his
condition and gave him breakfast and his usual morning Humulin and
that pushed his glucose even lower so that by noon he crashed and we
went to the vet. So that part of the crash was my fault. The vet's
best guess today is it was probably pancreatitis that triggered the
first drop in glucose, but I suspect that is only based on not having
other obvious indications of anything else.

catlady wrote:
> There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that you should be using Humulin in a
> diabetic cat!!!!! WTF are you doing? It is very short acting and is
> not recommended by any veterinarian that has one clue about feline
> diabetes. If you want your cat to end up having a ketoacidotic crisis
> and further kidney damage from poor regulation by all means contiunue
> exactly what you're doing now. Vetsulin is worthless for cats as well,
> unless of course you want to keep your cat diabetic.

WTF I am doing is listening to vets who are telling me they don't know
what to recommend replacing Vetsulin with yet and their Vetsulin
supplies are exhausted, and to pharmacists who will talk to me until I
tell them this is for a cat when they put up their hands and won't say
anything else. My understanding was that Humulin N was the longest
acting available, certainly better than the fast acting insulins and
the closest to the Humulin Ultralente that he had been on in the past.

> I will say this
> again- Lantus insulin is the first choice of insulin for cats and it
> is not unheard of for even long term diabetics to go in remission
> provided the cat is fed a very low carb, grain free diet and its
> numbers are kept in the normal (70-120) range.

None of the vets I have asked have told me Lantis is the answer.

I have seen people on the net claim they could get cats to go into
remission IF it is possible to cut food back until the cat was well
under-weight, although each agreed that this was very difficult to do
and one even wrote that he was certain his cat was going to kill him
in his sleep for being kept on a severely restricted diet.

With the food history he has I don't think it would be feasible to get
his weight down as far as they describe as necessary. He is a big
silver tabby and on top of that he is overweight, which I realize adds
to the diabetes problem.

> "At one time, the insulin of choice for cats was Humulin NPH (N).

He was on Humulin U Ultralente before the switch to Vetsulin and on
Humulin NPH H last week.

> Deborah Greco, DVM, Ph.D., a leading
> world expert in the treatment of feline diabetes, bluntly stated as
> early as 2005, “There is no rationale at all for using NPH (N insulin)
> at all in a cat. Period.”

Maybe that was why the vet switched us to Vetsulin. Can't know now.
Unfortunately he left.

> If you are determined to screw around with
> your cats treatment and cause it harm, you should find him a home with
> someone that cares more about the cat than convenience and cash.

To be bluntly honest, it wasn't my decision to give the cat a home.
I'm trying to do the best with what I have now. I am certain that in
almost anyone else's hands the cat would have been dead a decade ago.
I'll leave that at that.

So I now have a narrow window with the remaining Vetsulin. The vet is
still saying that the other vets he talks with agree that they don't
know what to recommend yet.

What I'd like to do is get a couple of reliable glucose curves while
on the Vetsulin and then a series of curves on the replacement insulin
to zero in on the new dose. Unfortunately I question whether I will
ever be able to accomplish that because every attempt at a blood
sample is significantly worse than the last, not better.

What I need is the best that I can do in the available window.

catlady
October 27th 10, 06:50 AM
On Oct 26, 8:06*pm, bill > wrote:
> On Oct 26, 1:01 pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "bill" wrote
> > > I collected all the information I could on available insulin to
> > > replace Vetsulin. *I watched all the example videos on using blood
> > > glucose meters and gave it six serious tries. *With every one he
> > > bacame more combative. *I finally decided I would never be able to get
> > > a reading, let alone a good one and gave up on that, but even vets
> > > have a very difficult time getting blood from him.
>
> > I asked specifically over in the diabetes group, if any with a diabetic cat
> > had tips on getting a good sample and so you may get a few ideas that are
> > new to try.
>
> > > This morning a couple of hours before the insulin he pooped outside
> > > the box and vomited, I thought this might be a gut infection, he had
> > > done that now and then in the past with no seeming serious effects,
> > > and watched and waited. *He ate well, took the next dose of insulin
> > > and seemed ok. *Then he vomited and pooped again. *An hour later he
> > > was down hard and could not stand. *I took him to the vet. Temperature
> > > was normal. *He managed to get a blood sample. *Glucose was down to
> > > 30, even after the trip, which probably raised it some because he
> > > hates vet trips. The vet double checked all my numbers and said that
> > > would be what he would have calculated to do. He administered some
> > > fluid and glucose to bring those back up, gave some antibiotics just
> > > in case an infection might have been the cause.
> > > Why did he seem to be fine for six days and then suddenly crash? Did
>
> > That seems easy. *If his previous vomiting wasn't in those 6 days, he's now
> > got a faster reacting insulin and the loss of the food caused him to go
> > hypoglycemic when the insulin hit.
>
> > > Why was it 8 hours between the insulin and the crash?
>
> > I'm a little confused. *"He ate well, took the next dose of insulin and
> > seemed ok. *Then he vomited and pooped again. *An hour later he was down
> > hard and could not stand." *IE: he ate, got insulin then threw up a meal and
> > an hour later crashed. *This looks like an immedite almost feed and insulin,
> > threw up, then 1 hour later crash. *Not 8 hours. *Could you clarify?
>
> Here is a timeline to try to more precisely describe what happened:
>
> The cat was given a home long ago after having been left in an
> apartment with no food for about a week when the owner moved away. *A
> dozen years later the cat still panics if there isn't enough to cover
> the bottom of the food dish at all times or if boxes start going out
> the door. *If there is a part of a dish he will gag down everything in
> it, no matter how much he recently ate, and then really freak out. *If
> the dish is full enough he will nibble just a bit and then walk away.
>
> Perhaps 10-12 years ago the cat was given a big dose of dexamethasone
> by one vet. All kinds of problems soon afterwards and finally realized
> he was now diabetic.
>
> We went to what we were told was the best vet in the city, of just
> over a million, for diabetic cats. He put us on Humulin U Ultralente.
> 5-8 years of that with fairly good success and only one crash, maybe
> unrelated. Then the vets were told this wasn't available or to switch
> or ? and we were switched to Vetsulin. *He crashed immediately. Never
> was able to determine why, but we finally got him stabilized on
> Vetsulin.
>
> 3-5 years of Vetsulin .09 cc twice a day with excellent success and no
> crashes. Up to a couple of years ago he was on Purina DM and Science
> Diet WD kibbles I think. A couple of years ago he had dental problems
> and teeth removed and we were switched entirely to Wellness wet food
> given out twice a day, he eats when he wants it. A few months ago I
> added in a teaspoon of Evo kibbles spread throughout the day.
>
> Then the vets were told Vetsulin was pulled off the market because of
> severe problems reported. Google * vetsulin problem * and you see a
> sample of the reports. Fortunately I don't believe I'm seeing the
> acute problems with Vetsulin that others are reporting. *And I scored
> what I believe were the last two bottles in the city and spent two
> months looking for information. The vet said that none of the vets
> really knew what to do next and that everyone was facing the problem,
> let him know what I found. He said there are also issues with insulin
> becoming non-prescription and that limits what information can be
> given. With all this I finally settled on Humulin N which I thought
> was the longest acting and closest available to to the previous
> Humulin U, which multiple pharmacists tell me is no longer available.
>
> Monday a week ago Vetsulin almost exhausted and I repeatedly tried to
> get blood for handheld glucose meter. Planned to get one at the time
> of feeding and one part way between and thought I would be lucky to do
> that. After half a dozen increasingly combative attempts I finally
> gave up on that and he got the two doses of Vetsulin on schedule.
> Daily Teaspoon of Evo kibbles stopped.
>
> Tuesday morning a week ago gave him .03 cc Humulin N. He seemed
> perfectly normal so evening dose was raised to 0.036 cc.
>
> Wed,Thu,Fri,Sat,Sun twice a day, early and late, 0.036 cc Humulin N.
> No adverse effects seen during any of this, seemed entirely normal.
> Thought I had a success.
>
> Monday morning 6 a.m. crying , pooped on the floor, vomited once, but
> he was walking. Since he has done that now and then in the past I
> assumed something disagreed with his digestion and he was emptying the
> gut. *Afterwards he is always starving and so fed him breakfast and
> gave him the morning Humulin. *Again he vomited and pooped on the
> floor, but he was still up and walking. *This was a little more
> worrysome, but again I estimated he was getting rid of something in
> the gut. *A couple of hours later he was pooping on the floor again
> and down so off to the vet he went at about noon.
>
> From the sounds from the back room the vet was having about average
> success trying to get a blood sample, even as compromised as he was,
> but the vet did finally succeed. *Glucose at 30. Fructosamine test
> sent out, that came back today and the value is exactly in the middle
> of the well regulated range, as it has been every year for years. *But
> I believe that last result mostly reflects the 3 weeks of Vetsulin
> prior to the Humulin. *With IV fluids and glucose in a couple of hours
> he was acting like nothing happened, other than staying well away from
> me because I put him in the carrier and took him to the vet.
>
> I was given a tiny supply of Vetsulin to pull him off the Humulin and
> try to regroup and figure out what to do next.
>
> So in hindsight between the vet and I, here is the best guess of what
> happened. *Very late Sunday night and early monday morning, long after
> feeding and Humulin, the insulin level was high and glucose was low,
> but for some reason this didn't seem to really take hold until 6 a.m.
> Monday, perhaps 8 hours after the last Humulin. *I misinterpreted his
> condition and gave him breakfast and his usual morning Humulin and
> that pushed his glucose even lower so that by noon he crashed and we
> went to the vet. *So that part of the crash was my fault. The vet's
> best guess today is it was probably pancreatitis that triggered the
> first drop in glucose, but I suspect that is only based on not having
> other obvious indications of anything else.
>
> catlady wrote:
> > There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that you should be using Humulin in a
> > diabetic cat!!!!! WTF are you doing? It is very short acting and is
> > not recommended by any veterinarian that has one clue about feline
> > diabetes. If you want your cat to end up having a ketoacidotic crisis
> > and further kidney damage from poor regulation by all means contiunue
> > exactly what you're doing now. Vetsulin is worthless for cats as well,
> > unless of course you want to keep your cat diabetic.
>
> WTF I am doing is listening to vets who are telling me they don't know
> what to recommend replacing Vetsulin with yet and their Vetsulin
> supplies are exhausted, and to pharmacists who will talk to me until I
> tell them this is for a cat when they put up their hands and won't say
> anything else. *My understanding was that Humulin N was the longest
> acting available, certainly better than the fast acting insulins and
> the closest to the Humulin Ultralente that he had been on in the past.






>
> > I will say this
> > again- Lantus insulin is the first choice of insulin for cats and it
> > is not unheard of for even long term diabetics to go in remission
> > provided the cat is fed a very low carb, grain free diet and its
> > numbers are kept in the normal (70-120) range.
>
> None of the vets I have asked have told me Lantis is the answer.

Lantus has been he go to insulin for cats for *years.* If your vets
have no clue about Lantus then they are not quaified to be treating
diabetic cats. Show your vets this link and tell them to step into the
21st century: http://www.felinediabetes.com/Roomp_Rand_2008%20dosing_testing%20protocol.pdf


>
> I have seen people on the net claim they could get cats to go into
> remission IF it is possible to cut food back until the cat was well
> under-weight, although each agreed that this was very difficult to do
> and one even wrote that he was certain his cat was going to kill him
> in his sleep for being kept on a severely restricted diet.
>
> With the food history he has I don't think it would be feasible to get
> his weight down as far as they describe as necessary. *He is a big
> silver tabby and on top of that he is overweight, which I realize adds
> to the diabetes problem.

This is not how remission is achieved. You simply feed the cat
scheduled, measured meals that contain enough calories to maintain
weight or induce weight loss in obese cats while using insulin to keep
their blood sugar in the normal range. Any claim that states you have
to make a cat be severely underweight is ridiculous. Many of my
patients have acheived remission while still obese, athough the weight
loss regimen is ongoing until they reach ideal weight. Getting
diabetic cats to an approriate weight for their size is important as
obesity contributes to insulin resistance, but I have no idea where
this underweight BS is coming from.



>
> > "At one time, the insulin of choice for cats was Humulin NPH (N).
>
> He was on Humulin U Ultralente before the switch to Vetsulin and on
> Humulin NPH H last week.
>
> > Deborah Greco, DVM, Ph.D., a leading
> > world expert in the treatment of feline diabetes, bluntly stated as
> > early as 2005, “There is no rationale at all for using NPH (N insulin)
> > at all in a cat. Period.”
>
> Maybe that was why the vet switched us to Vetsulin. Can't know now.
> Unfortunately he left.
>

cshenk
October 27th 10, 10:58 PM
"catlady" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
> "bill" wrote
> Catlady said:

>> >> > Evo sells the only kibble I have been able to find, even after a lot
>> >> > of searching, that has only 7% carbohydrate.
>> >> EVO is not Actually 7%. A vet I know had it sent out and tested and it
>> >> can back as 13% carbs. There is NO dry food that is appropriate for a
>> >> diabetic cat as they all have ingredients that are innappropriate for
>> >> a carnivore, especially a diabetic one. Diabetic cats should only be
>> >> fed canned, grain free foods with no more than 3-5% carbs.

>> Bill, check with your Vet on this one just to be sure of the %.
>> Relatively
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just in case you missed that.

>> recent information for *humans* with type II diabetes is that carbs in
>> the
^^^^^^^^
Just in case you missed the emphasis.

> Cats are not people, and carbs are NOT good for cats, especially
> diabetic cats. Cats do just fine with no carbs in their diet and in

Just in case you missed it, all I asked was he check the carb levels
currently recommended by his VET for cats as it may not be identical to what
he thought. There's new research all the time. There may be something new
known like a specific added item that helps a cat just like they've found
some differences for humans.

> into remission. I have been doing this for over 10 years. I know of
> what I speak. It's quite obvious you have no experience with diabetes
> in cats or the protocol required for regulation and remission, so you
> really have no business offering dietary advice, especially when you
> do something as ridicuous as apply something that may apply to humans
> to a cat.

Good on you. Now please tell me why asking him to check something with his
VET is a bad idea?

cshenk
October 27th 10, 11:19 PM
"bill" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

>> I asked specifically over in the diabetes group, if any with a diabetic
>> cat
>> had tips on getting a good sample and so you may get a few ideas that are
>> new to try.

>> I'm a little confused. "He ate well, took the next dose of insulin and
>> seemed ok. Then he vomited and pooped again. An hour later he was down
>> hard and could not stand." IE: he ate, got insulin then threw up a meal
>> and
>> an hour later crashed. This looks like an immedite almost feed and
>> insulin,
>> threw up, then 1 hour later crash. Not 8 hours. Could you clarify?

> Here is a timeline to try to more precisely describe what happened:

Thanks! I'm just curious.

> The cat was given a home long ago after having been left in an
> apartment with no food for about a week when the owner moved away. A
> dozen years later the cat still panics if there isn't enough to cover
> the bottom of the food dish at all times or if boxes start going out
> the door. If there is a part of a dish he will gag down everything in
> it, no matter how much he recently ate, and then really freak out. If
> the dish is full enough he will nibble just a bit and then walk away.

Sad smile, he's lucky to have made it through that non-feed period.
Behavior understood. My Daisy-chan was like that but we have her converted
to 2 feeds a day but it took time and patience.

> Perhaps 10-12 years ago the cat was given a big dose of dexamethasone
> by one vet. All kinds of problems soon afterwards and finally realized
> he was now diabetic.

> We went to what we were told was the best vet in the city, of just
> over a million, for diabetic cats. He put us on Humulin U Ultralente.
> 5-8 years of that with fairly good success and only one crash, maybe
> unrelated. Then the vets were told this wasn't available or to switch
> or ? and we were switched to Vetsulin. He crashed immediately. Never
> was able to determine why, but we finally got him stabilized on
> Vetsulin.

> 3-5 years of Vetsulin .09 cc twice a day with excellent success and no
> crashes. Up to a couple of years ago he was on Purina DM and Science
> Diet WD kibbles I think. A couple of years ago he had dental problems
> and teeth removed and we were switched entirely to Wellness wet food
> given out twice a day, he eats when he wants it. A few months ago I
> added in a teaspoon of Evo kibbles spread throughout the day.

Ok, tracking on the feeding. I see wet now which is good IMHO.

> Then the vets were told Vetsulin was pulled off the market because of
> severe problems reported. Google vetsulin problem and you see a
> sample of the reports. Fortunately I don't believe I'm seeing the
> acute problems with Vetsulin that others are reporting. And I scored
> what I believe were the last two bottles in the city and spent two
> months looking for information. The vet said that none of the vets
> really knew what to do next and that everyone was facing the problem,
> let him know what I found. He said there are also issues with insulin
> becoming non-prescription and that limits what information can be
> given. With all this I finally settled on Humulin N which I thought
> was the longest acting and closest available to to the previous
> Humulin U, which multiple pharmacists tell me is no longer available.

Sounds logical. BTW, didnt mean to bother you for this much. I'm fascenated
but I was just asking about that one night.

> Monday a week ago Vetsulin almost exhausted and I repeatedly tried to
> get blood for handheld glucose meter. Planned to get one at the time
> of feeding and one part way between and thought I would be lucky to do
> that. After half a dozen increasingly combative attempts I finally
> gave up on that and he got the two doses of Vetsulin on schedule.
> Daily Teaspoon of Evo kibbles stopped.

Ok, I havent read yet far enough in to see if there is any advice from
another on tips they found to ease this. Some may be in the human related
diabetes group from ones who have diabetic cats. It's harmess to ask other
cat owners for tips which you can read and run by your Vet if you want to
see if they help.

> Tuesday morning a week ago gave him .03 cc Humulin N. He seemed
> perfectly normal so evening dose was raised to 0.036 cc.

> Wed,Thu,Fri,Sat,Sun twice a day, early and late, 0.036 cc Humulin N.
> No adverse effects seen during any of this, seemed entirely normal.
> Thought I had a success.

> Monday morning 6 a.m. crying , pooped on the floor, vomited once, but
> he was walking. Since he has done that now and then in the past I
> assumed something disagreed with his digestion and he was emptying the
> gut. Afterwards he is always starving and so fed him breakfast and
> gave him the morning Humulin. Again he vomited and pooped on the
> floor, but he was still up and walking. This was a little more
> worrysome, but again I estimated he was getting rid of something in
> the gut. A couple of hours later he was pooping on the floor again
> and down so off to the vet he went at about noon.

Ok, so he ate and got shots then lost his breakfast.

> From the sounds from the back room the vet was having about average
> success trying to get a blood sample, even as compromised as he was,
> but the vet did finally succeed. Glucose at 30. Fructosamine test
> sent out, that came back today and the value is exactly in the middle
> of the well regulated range, as it has been every year for years. But
> I believe that last result mostly reflects the 3 weeks of Vetsulin
> prior to the Humulin. With IV fluids and glucose in a couple of hours
> he was acting like nothing happened, other than staying well away from
> me because I put him in the carrier and took him to the vet.

> I was given a tiny supply of Vetsulin to pull him off the Humulin and
> try to regroup and figure out what to do next.

> So in hindsight between the vet and I, here is the best guess of what
> happened. Very late Sunday night and early monday morning, long after
> feeding and Humulin, the insulin level was high and glucose was low,
> but for some reason this didn't seem to really take hold until 6 a.m.
> Monday, perhaps 8 hours after the last Humulin. I misinterpreted his
> condition and gave him breakfast and his usual morning Humulin and
> that pushed his glucose even lower so that by noon he crashed and we
> went to the vet. So that part of the crash was my fault. The vet's
> best guess today is it was probably pancreatitis that triggered the
> first drop in glucose, but I suspect that is only based on not having
> other obvious indications of anything else.

Thats kinda how it sounded to me but the vet knows best. It sounds like the
best thing here is to find you a good way to home test, even if it's mostly
a 'just until adjusted' thing is done. Then you can get a feel for the
glucose curves since you've no choice but to swap the insulin. Keep a
record for your vet if we can find some good tips ok?

Good luck. I wish the best success for you both with this.

cshenk
October 28th 10, 12:09 AM
Bill,

Since I do not know what web sites you used or videos, there amy be
something new in his second link on BG testing tips.

There's a second copied message below this one

----------
"cshenk" wrote in message
...

I was wondering since the group here knows so much, if any have a diabetic
cat and can assist a fellow in rec.pets.cats.health_behavior?

His cat is having issues. He has not been able to get a BG test off the cat
on his own although he's tried (needs better tips). He's having to give
insulin without testing and hope for the best and it seems to not be working
well.

I can happily cross the messages over from here or add the other group just
to this thread if no one minds.

cshenk
---
I've never had that experience, but I do happen to have some web
links that may prove useful for that situation.

http://www.catdiabetes.net/

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/40302.htm

I'd expect that no one would mind if you do a crosspost that's actually
on-topic to both newsgroups, but be aware that some people in this
newsgroup have found that filtering out ALL messages that are
crossposted is the best way their newsreader provides for filtering out
threads started by certain people who cross post and don't try to stay
on-topic.

Robert Miles
--------------
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:49:50 -0400, "cshenk" > wrote:

>I was wondering since the group here knows so much, if any have a diabetic
>cat and can assist a fellow in rec.pets.cats.health_behavior?
>
>His cat is having issues. He has not been able to get a BG test off the
>cat on his own although he's tried (needs better tips). He's having to
>give insulin without testing and hope for the best and it seems to not be
>working well.
>
>I can happily cross the messages over from here or add the other group just
>to this thread if no one minds.


he's welcome to post here directly. Several of our posters have/had
diabetic pets and we discussed the topics freely here.
--------

They aren't super fast there with every reply but the subject line is
'Support Request, Diabetic Cats'. If you want to add the group, I assure
you they accept non-diabetics (I am not diabetic) and it seems previous to
my entry, several have or have had diabetic pets. Like me, they will all
tell you to check it all out with your Vet first but maybe, just hopefully
maybe, we can come up with a better workable testing tip for your loved
little brave he-man cat.

catlady
October 28th 10, 05:25 AM
On Oct 27, 4:58*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
> Good on you. *Now please tell me why asking him to check something with his
> VET is a bad idea?

Because his vet (and clueless colleagues) doesn't even know the basic
information on Lantus, and thinks Vetsulin and Humulin are ok to use
in cats. What is the point of asking a clueless person for answers?
Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon. I can't tell you how many of our
clients come to us as a last resort when other vets have failed these
diabetic cats because they can't be bothered to take the time to
learn the newest info on treating feline diabetics. It's disgusting,
but hey, how are they going to make any money if their patients go
into remission? Better to feed them high carb "prescription" dry food
(w/d, m/d,.royal canin dd) keep that blood glucose high enough that
eventually the pancreas burn out and there is no chance of remission,
and keep selling them insulin, needles and prescription food with that
healthy markup. And charge for blood glucose curves (not accurate in a
clinic setting as most cats will have stress hyperglycemia),
fructosamines, etc. that aren't really necessary when hometesting.
Once we get these clients on the program and they see how you are
supposed to treat diabetic cats. all of which they can do at home
without spending a ton of money and without having to rely on bogus
prescription diets, they are ****ed and can't understand why nobody
told them before. We teach people how to get by for very little money,
what to feed, how to hometest, the best place to give injections (NOT
the scruff of the neck) where to get supplies, and everything else. We
don't do fructosamines (they are worthless and should not be used for
managing a diabetic) and have our clients do curves at home where the
cat is most comfortable. We work as a team and we get remissions over
and over, even in cats that have been diabetic for *years.* Most vets
don't bother to do any of this and it's a shame. Just because someone
is a vet doesn't mean they are competent. You've heard the old joke
about what do you call the person that graduated at the bottom of his
class in vet school? Doctor.

bill
October 29th 10, 09:05 PM
On Oct 28, 4:25*am, catlady > wrote:
> On Oct 27, 4:58*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
> > Good on you. *Now please tell me why asking him to check something with his
> > VET is a bad idea?
>
> Because his vet (and clueless colleagues) doesn't even know the basic
> information on Lantus, and thinks Vetsulin and Humulin are ok to use
> in cats. What is the point of asking a clueless person for answers?
> Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon. I can't tell you how many of our
> clients come to us as a last resort when other vets have failed these
> diabetic cats because they can't *be bothered to take the time to
> learn the newest info on treating feline diabetics. It's disgusting,
> but hey, how are they going to make any money if their patients go
> into remission? Better to feed them high carb "prescription" dry food
> (w/d, m/d,.royal canin dd) keep that blood glucose high enough that
> eventually the pancreas burn out and there is no chance of remission,
> and keep selling them insulin, needles and prescription food with that
> healthy markup. And charge for blood glucose curves (not accurate in a
> clinic setting as most cats will have stress hyperglycemia),
> fructosamines, etc. that aren't really necessary when hometesting.
> Once we get these clients on the program and they see how you are
> supposed to treat diabetic cats. all of which they can do at home
> without spending a ton of money and without having to rely on bogus
> prescription diets, they are ****ed and can't understand why nobody
> told them before. We teach people how to get by for very little money,
> what to feed, how to hometest, the best place to give injections (NOT
> the scruff of the neck) where to get supplies, and everything else. We
> don't do fructosamines (they are worthless and should not be used for
> managing a diabetic) and have our clients do curves at home where the
> cat is most comfortable. We work as a team and we get remissions over
> and over, even in cats that have been diabetic for *years.* Most vets
> don't bother to do any of this and it's a shame. Just because someone
> is a vet doesn't mean they are competent. You've heard the old joke
> about what do you call the person that graduated at the bottom of his
> class in vet school? Doctor.

I have printed out the pdf you provided on the insulin protocol and
should have that in the hands of the vet today.

Is there any way I can get a detailed explanation of the program you
describe above? I would pay you for this if need be and I would limit
distribution if you want that.

Update on the cat. I started him at .06 cc Vetsulin-U40 in the evening
after he crashed and came back from the vet. When that went well the
next morning I stepped up to .07 and then .08 and .09. He was also put
on half a tablet of Enrofloxacin twice a day for the "acne" on his
chin where he was rubbing himself raw and perhaps for the
pancreatitis. That was crushed and mixed in with the Wellness wet
food. The first couple of days seemed to go well, but each time he
seemed less and less willing to eat with the antibiotic. Then during
the day yesterday he only ate about 1/4 his usual and refused to have
anything to do with more food with the antibiotic in/on it. So I
didn't give him the usual dose of insulin last night because he had
eaten so little in 12 hours. I gave him a usual serving without the
antibiotic and waited to see if he would eat any of it. Over the night
he did eat most of that, but wandered off to sleep this morning
without wanting any more. So his appetite for the last 24 hours is a
fraction of normal, but he did eat a little better last night and he
doesn't give me any indication that he is in distress. I'm watching
him closely and will talk with the vet in a couple of hours.

Thanks

catlady
October 30th 10, 04:30 AM
On Oct 29, 3:05*pm, bill > wrote:
> On Oct 28, 4:25*am, catlady > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 27, 4:58*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
> > > Good on you. *Now please tell me why asking him to check something with his
> > > VET is a bad idea?
>
> > Because his vet (and clueless colleagues) doesn't even know the basic
> > information on Lantus, and thinks Vetsulin and Humulin are ok to use
> > in cats. What is the point of asking a clueless person for answers?
> > Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon. I can't tell you how many of our
> > clients come to us as a last resort when other vets have failed these
> > diabetic cats because they can't *be bothered to take the time to
> > learn the newest info on treating feline diabetics. It's disgusting,
> > but hey, how are they going to make any money if their patients go
> > into remission? Better to feed them high carb "prescription" dry food
> > (w/d, m/d,.royal canin dd) keep that blood glucose high enough that
> > eventually the pancreas burn out and there is no chance of remission,
> > and keep selling them insulin, needles and prescription food with that
> > healthy markup. And charge for blood glucose curves (not accurate in a
> > clinic setting as most cats will have stress hyperglycemia),
> > fructosamines, etc. that aren't really necessary when hometesting.
> > Once we get these clients on the program and they see how you are
> > supposed to treat diabetic cats. all of which they can do at home
> > without spending a ton of money and without having to rely on bogus
> > prescription diets, they are ****ed and can't understand why nobody
> > told them before. We teach people how to get by for very little money,
> > what to feed, how to hometest, the best place to give injections (NOT
> > the scruff of the neck) where to get supplies, and everything else. We
> > don't do fructosamines (they are worthless and should not be used for
> > managing a diabetic) and have our clients do curves at home where the
> > cat is most comfortable. We work as a team and we get remissions over
> > and over, even in cats that have been diabetic for *years.* Most vets
> > don't bother to do any of this and it's a shame. Just because someone
> > is a vet doesn't mean they are competent. You've heard the old joke
> > about what do you call the person that graduated at the bottom of his
> > class in vet school? Doctor.
>
> I have printed out the pdf you provided on the insulin protocol and
> should have that in the hands of the vet today.
>
> Is there any way I can get a detailed explanation of the program you
> describe above? I would pay you for this if need be and I would limit
> distribution if you want that.
>
> Update on the cat. I started him at .06 cc Vetsulin-U40 in the evening
> after he crashed and came back from the vet. When that went well the
> next morning I stepped up to .07 and then .08 and .09. He was also put
> on half a tablet of Enrofloxacin twice a day for the "acne" on his
> chin where he was rubbing himself raw and perhaps for the
> pancreatitis. That was crushed and mixed in with the Wellness wet
> food. The first couple of days seemed to go well, but each time he
> seemed less and less willing to eat with the antibiotic. Then during
> the day yesterday he only ate about 1/4 his usual and refused to have
> anything to do with more food with the antibiotic in/on it. So I
> didn't give him the usual dose of insulin last night because he had
> eaten so little in 12 hours. I gave him a usual serving without the
> antibiotic and waited to see if he would eat any of it. Over the night
> he did eat most of that, but wandered off to sleep this morning
> without wanting any more. So his appetite for the last 24 hours is a
> fraction of normal, but he did eat a little better last night and he
> doesn't give me any indication that he is in distress. I'm watching
> him closely and will talk with the vet in a couple of hours.
>
> Thanks- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Is your email address valid?

bill
October 30th 10, 04:54 PM
On Oct 30, 3:30*am, catlady > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 3:05*pm, bill > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 28, 4:25*am, catlady > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 27, 4:58*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
> > > > Good on you. *Now please tell me why asking him to check something with his
> > > > VET is a bad idea?
>
> > > Because his vet (and clueless colleagues) doesn't even know the basic
> > > information on Lantus, and thinks Vetsulin and Humulin are ok to use
> > > in cats. What is the point of asking a clueless person for answers?
> > > Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon. I can't tell you how many of our
> > > clients come to us as a last resort when other vets have failed these
> > > diabetic cats because they can't *be bothered to take the time to
> > > learn the newest info on treating feline diabetics. It's disgusting,
> > > but hey, how are they going to make any money if their patients go
> > > into remission? Better to feed them high carb "prescription" dry food
> > > (w/d, m/d,.royal canin dd) keep that blood glucose high enough that
> > > eventually the pancreas burn out and there is no chance of remission,
> > > and keep selling them insulin, needles and prescription food with that
> > > healthy markup. And charge for blood glucose curves (not accurate in a
> > > clinic setting as most cats will have stress hyperglycemia),
> > > fructosamines, etc. that aren't really necessary when hometesting.
> > > Once we get these clients on the program and they see how you are
> > > supposed to treat diabetic cats. all of which they can do at home
> > > without spending a ton of money and without having to rely on bogus
> > > prescription diets, they are ****ed and can't understand why nobody
> > > told them before. We teach people how to get by for very little money,
> > > what to feed, how to hometest, the best place to give injections (NOT
> > > the scruff of the neck) where to get supplies, and everything else. We
> > > don't do fructosamines (they are worthless and should not be used for
> > > managing a diabetic) and have our clients do curves at home where the
> > > cat is most comfortable. We work as a team and we get remissions over
> > > and over, even in cats that have been diabetic for *years.* Most vets
> > > don't bother to do any of this and it's a shame. Just because someone
> > > is a vet doesn't mean they are competent. You've heard the old joke
> > > about what do you call the person that graduated at the bottom of his
> > > class in vet school? Doctor.
>
> > I have printed out the pdf you provided on the insulin protocol and
> > should have that in the hands of the vet today.
>
> > Is there any way I can get a detailed explanation of the program you
> > describe above? I would pay you for this if need be and I would limit
> > distribution if you want that.
>
> > Update on the cat. I started him at .06 cc Vetsulin-U40 in the evening
> > after he crashed and came back from the vet. When that went well the
> > next morning I stepped up to .07 and then .08 and .09. He was also put
> > on half a tablet of Enrofloxacin twice a day for the "acne" on his
> > chin where he was rubbing himself raw and perhaps for the
> > pancreatitis. That was crushed and mixed in with the Wellness wet
> > food. The first couple of days seemed to go well, but each time he
> > seemed less and less willing to eat with the antibiotic. Then during
> > the day yesterday he only ate about 1/4 his usual and refused to have
> > anything to do with more food with the antibiotic in/on it. So I
> > didn't give him the usual dose of insulin last night because he had
> > eaten so little in 12 hours. I gave him a usual serving without the
> > antibiotic and waited to see if he would eat any of it. Over the night
> > he did eat most of that, but wandered off to sleep this morning
> > without wanting any more. So his appetite for the last 24 hours is a
> > fraction of normal, but he did eat a little better last night and he
> > doesn't give me any indication that he is in distress. I'm watching
> > him closely and will talk with the vet in a couple of hours.
>
> > Thanks- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Is your email address valid?

Yes. Thank you

Update on status. Had skipped one dose of Vetsulin because he had
eaten almost nothing that day and gave .06 cc the next time, hoping he
would eat enough to justify that. Without the antibiotic mixed into
his food his appetite appears to be coming back and he seems to be
showing no sign of distress. Last evening he pooped normally and
during the night urine output is up so now I am gradually ramping the
Vetsulin back to the 0.09 cc he was stable on and hoping to get him
stable again. Still watching him closely. Vet is reviewing the pdf
document on diabetic treatment.