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View Full Version : Chronic Renal Failure: Low protein, or good protein?


BLink
May 31st 12, 09:15 PM
Our old-cat Tiger has just been diagnosed with CRF. The vet recommends
prescription low-protein, grain-supplemented cat food, but in
Elizabeth Hodgkins' book "Your Cat", she recommends good-quality but
low-phospate protein. What has been your experience? Thanks

Rene[_2_]
May 31st 12, 09:37 PM
I am not a fan of prescription foods for any reason. I really like the
Your Cat book, and also the catinfo.org website. She has a section
discussing common feline diseases. This is taken from their site:

Kidney Disease (CKD - formerly called "CRF"): Chronic kidney disease
is probably the leading cause of mortality in the cat. It is
troubling to think about the role that chronic dehydration may play in
causing or exacerbating feline kidney disease. And remember, cats are
chronically dehydrated - especially CKD cats - when they are on a diet
of predominantly dry food. The prescription dry 'renal diets' such as
Hill's Prescription k/d - which are commonly prescribed by
veterinarians - contain only a small amount of moisture (~10% versus
78% for canned food) leaving your cat in a less than optimal state of
water balance.

I must say that I find it truly amazing when I hear about the very
large numbers of cats receiving subcutaneous fluids while being
maintained on a diet of dry food. This is an extremely illogical and
unhealthy practice and every attempt should be made to get these cats
on a diet that contains a higher moisture content.

Please also note the following list of the first four ingredients of
Hill's Prescription dry k/d after reviewing this section on reading a
pet food label - and bearing in mind that your cat is a carnivore.


Here is her link to food ingredients:
http://www.catinfo.org/#Learn_How_To_Read_a_Pet_Food_Ingredient_Label

Rene[_2_]
May 31st 12, 09:43 PM
Here's another great article from Little Big Cat, a site I like a lot:
http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/kidney-disease-in-older-cats/

Bill Graham
May 31st 12, 10:00 PM
Rene wrote:
> I am not a fan of prescription foods for any reason. I really like the
> Your Cat book, and also the catinfo.org website. She has a section
> discussing common feline diseases. This is taken from their site:
>
> Kidney Disease (CKD - formerly called "CRF"): Chronic kidney disease
> is probably the leading cause of mortality in the cat. It is
> troubling to think about the role that chronic dehydration may play in
> causing or exacerbating feline kidney disease. And remember, cats are
> chronically dehydrated - especially CKD cats - when they are on a diet
> of predominantly dry food. The prescription dry 'renal diets' such as
> Hill's Prescription k/d - which are commonly prescribed by
> veterinarians - contain only a small amount of moisture (~10% versus
> 78% for canned food) leaving your cat in a less than optimal state of
> water balance.
>
> I must say that I find it truly amazing when I hear about the very
> large numbers of cats receiving subcutaneous fluids while being
> maintained on a diet of dry food. This is an extremely illogical and
> unhealthy practice and every attempt should be made to get these cats
> on a diet that contains a higher moisture content.
>
> Please also note the following list of the first four ingredients of
> Hill's Prescription dry k/d after reviewing this section on reading a
> pet food label - and bearing in mind that your cat is a carnivore.
>
>
> Here is her link to food ingredients:
> http://www.catinfo.org/#Learn_How_To_Read_a_Pet_Food_Ingredient_Label

I don't understamd how a house cat can become dehydrated. My five cats have
two water bowls available to them at all times, which I refill every day.
They eat almost exclusively dry foods ( a couple of them won't touch
anything else) but they drink large amounts of water, too. Also, as near as
I can tell, the whole idea that lots of water is necessary for good kidney
health is nothing but an old wives tale. I have known humans who drank very
few liquids their whole lives, and had good kidneys right up until the end.
Are cats any different?

ala
June 1st 12, 02:52 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't understamd how a house cat can become dehydrated. My five cats
> have two water bowls available to them at all times, which I refill every
> day. They eat almost exclusively dry foods ( a couple of them won't touch
> anything else) but they drink large amounts of water, too. Also, as near
> as I can tell, the whole idea that lots of water is necessary for good
> kidney health is nothing but an old wives tale. I have known humans who
> drank very few liquids their whole lives, and had good kidneys right up
> until the end. Are cats any different?

Unfortunately, drinking water is not an old wives tale about kidney health.
Humans with compromised kidney function will suffer kidney damage due to a
variety of things that require hydration to repair.
Compromised kidney function happens to a great deal of people on aging,
because kidneys like everything else about getting old tends to fall apart.
The humans you knew were lucky not to have kidney problems but they were
sure to experience other problems

other things that may change kidney health include long term medication
usage, frequent illnesses, hypertension, diabetes and a lot of other things.
The kidney is an "end organ" and stress on it plus age makes it more
susceptible

proper hydration makes it less prone to stress that causes damage.
Dehydration makes it work harder and that causes damage. sort of if you ran
your car without filling up the radiator for those who are old school.

cats are genetically predisposed to have more kidney problems

you can have a lot of water but you can't force even a human to drink what
they have to drink.
the thirst regulator isn't always connected to the kidneys need for
hydration.
So the cat doesn't know how much it needs to drink.

Conversely and peculiarly, overhydration can cause deficits as well. If you
drink TOO much it will wash out the minerals that allow you to retain the
right balance of water.
Again, this puts stress on kidneys because it is dysregulating.
All the running of the radiator without proper water in it will eventually
cause the radiator to corrode.

BLink
June 1st 12, 11:55 PM
On May 31, 3:37*pm, Rene > wrote:
> I am not a fan of prescription foods for any reason. I really like the
> Your Cat book, and also the catinfo.org website. She has a section
> discussing common feline diseases. This is taken from their site:
>
> Kidney Disease (CKD - formerly called "CRF"): *Chronic kidney disease
> is probably the leading cause of mortality in the cat. *It is
> troubling to think about the role that chronic dehydration may play in
> causing or exacerbating feline kidney disease. *And remember, cats are
> chronically dehydrated - especially CKD cats - when they are on a diet
> of predominantly dry food. *The prescription dry 'renal diets' such as
> Hill's Prescription k/d - which are commonly prescribed by
> veterinarians - contain only a small amount of moisture (~10% versus
> 78% for canned food) leaving your cat in a less than optimal state of
> water balance.
>
> I must say that I find it truly amazing when I hear about the very
> large numbers of cats receiving subcutaneous fluids while being
> maintained on a diet of dry food. *This is an extremely illogical and
> unhealthy practice and every attempt should be made to get these cats
> on a diet that contains a higher moisture content.
>
> Please also note the following list of the first four ingredients of
> Hill's Prescription dry k/d after reviewing this section on reading a
> pet food label - and bearing in mind that your cat is a carnivore.
>
> Here is her link to food ingredients:http://www.catinfo.org/#Learn_How_To_Read_a_Pet_Food_Ingredient_Label

Crap - forgot about top-posting.

Tiger's been exclusively on Wellness wet food for most of his life. He
has access to lots of water, which he's been drinking pretty
enthusiastically. He seems to be taking to the prescription stuff
(grain and all) quite well. The vet didn't seem concerned that there
was an imminent crash in his future, so we've decided to take the
vet's advice for a month and see if his numbers improve. If things
look bad, then we're gonna switch to the home-recipe "real meat" stuff
cut with phosphate binders and/or egg whites.

Both our cats have managed well for a long time. Louis the Bengal is
10, albeit with some inappropriate urination issues. We had a really
bad spell in the late '90s where we lost 4 cats in the space of two
years from cancer, FIV, and an escapee who was devoured by dogs. Heard
many success stories of folks treating CRD/CRV with prescription
diets, and also ones who follow Dr. Hodgkins' advice. Tough to be a
layman trying to evaluate all this data.

Bill Graham
June 2nd 12, 01:38 AM
ala wrote:
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I don't understamd how a house cat can become dehydrated. My five
>> cats have two water bowls available to them at all times, which I
>> refill every day. They eat almost exclusively dry foods ( a couple
>> of them won't touch anything else) but they drink large amounts of
>> water, too. Also, as near as I can tell, the whole idea that lots of
>> water is necessary for good kidney health is nothing but an old
>> wives tale. I have known humans who drank very few liquids their
>> whole lives, and had good kidneys right up until the end. Are cats
>> any different?
>
> Unfortunately, drinking water is not an old wives tale about kidney
> health. Humans with compromised kidney function will suffer kidney
> damage due to a variety of things that require hydration to repair.
> Compromised kidney function happens to a great deal of people on
> aging, because kidneys like everything else about getting old tends
> to fall apart. The humans you knew were lucky not to have kidney
> problems but they were sure to experience other problems
>
> other things that may change kidney health include long term
> medication usage, frequent illnesses, hypertension, diabetes and a
> lot of other things. The kidney is an "end organ" and stress on it
> plus age makes it more susceptible
>
> proper hydration makes it less prone to stress that causes damage.
> Dehydration makes it work harder and that causes damage. sort of if
> you ran your car without filling up the radiator for those who are
> old school.
> cats are genetically predisposed to have more kidney problems
>
> you can have a lot of water but you can't force even a human to drink
> what they have to drink.
> the thirst regulator isn't always connected to the kidneys need for
> hydration.
> So the cat doesn't know how much it needs to drink.
>
> Conversely and peculiarly, overhydration can cause deficits as well. If
> you drink TOO much it will wash out the minerals that allow you to
> retain the right balance of water.
> Again, this puts stress on kidneys because it is dysregulating.
> All the running of the radiator without proper water in it will
> eventually cause the radiator to corrode.

Well, accepting your claim that drinking lots of water is good for the cat's
kidneys, how does one go about getting their cats to drink water? Does
feeding them dry food, or salty food to make them thirsty do the job? I have
one thaw5t likes ham, and I notice that after swhe eats it she does drink
more water *as do I) but is this good for her kidneys, or does the salt i8n
the ham have effects that are generally worse than the water is good? Some
animals that are desert dwellers get most or all of their water from eating
plants, but cats don't generally eat plants, even though they thrived in
very dry countries for millions of years. I heard about a cat kidney
transpland society that specializes in transferring kidneys from one cat to
another...
This sounds like an excellent idea to me. I wonder how much they charge for
the operation, and how they go about matching the cats for transplant
purposes.....

Rene[_2_]
June 4th 12, 02:46 PM
> Well, accepting your claim that drinking lots of water is good for the cat's
> kidneys, how does one go about getting their cats to drink water? Does
> feeding them dry food, or salty food to make them thirsty do the job?

Dry food contains, at most, 10% water. Wet food is at least 70% (or
more, can't remember offhand) water. In the wild, cats eat prey, which
contain a lot of water/liquid. Cats weren't meant to eat dry grains--
it's not natural. They can't make up the difference on their own.

Wet food is the best way for them to get adequate water.

Rene

MaryL[_2_]
June 4th 12, 05:13 PM
"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...

ala wrote:
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I don't understamd how a house cat can become dehydrated. My five
>> cats have two water bowls available to them at all times, which I
>> refill every day. They eat almost exclusively dry foods ( a couple
>> of them won't touch anything else) but they drink large amounts of
>> water, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cats should eat good-quality *grains free* canned food. NO dry food.
Canned food will provide water and help avoid dehydration. In addition,
cats are obligate carnivores and should not be fed food with grains. They
cannot digest carbs.

MaryL

Bill Graham
June 5th 12, 01:00 AM
MaryL wrote:
> "Bill Graham" wrote in message
> ...
>
> ala wrote:
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> I don't understamd how a house cat can become dehydrated. My five
>>> cats have two water bowls available to them at all times, which I
>>> refill every day. They eat almost exclusively dry foods ( a couple
>>> of them won't touch anything else) but they drink large amounts of
>>> water, too.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Cats should eat good-quality *grains free* canned food. NO dry food.
> Canned food will provide water and help avoid dehydration. In
> addition, cats are obligate carnivores and should not be fed food
> with grains. They cannot digest carbs.
>
> MaryL

Well, most people aren't cat food specialists. This is where I expect my
government to help out. What do we pay them for anyway? If they can't keep
cat food that is bad for the cats off the market, then what are they good
for? The least I can expect of the FDA is to keep us from being poisoned by
the food merchants, and that goes for our pets as well as ourselves.