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View Full Version : Fences - Cats - DIY?


Gas Bag
August 12th 12, 01:28 PM
A friend of mine has one of these fences that's about 178cm (5'10")
tall:

http://stratco.com.au/products/fencing/types/good_neighbour/good_neighbour.asp

She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in. I
know full well that there are numerous commercially available products
that will stop cats (along with other animals) climbing fences. I'm
sure they do work, but they're all fairly pricey, particularly if
attempting to cover a significant length of fencing. I'm now thinking
about trying a home-rigged set up. I'm considering getting a whole
heap of empty 2 Litre plastic softdrink bottles (Soda bottles to any
USA readers), then cutting off the base and neck of the bottles, then
cutting them lengthwise, then siliconing them to the tops of the fence
so the sides of the bottles "curve downwards" from the top of the
fence. I'm thinking this curved plastic will be too smooth and
slippery for a cat to get any grip with it's claws. I have no problem
with spending some time getting this to work, but I want to keep the
cost down, so spending lots of $$$ isn't happening.

I was wondering if anyone has attempted anything like this, and if
they can offer any advice. Thanks.

To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.

Bill Graham
August 15th 12, 10:01 PM
Gas Bag wrote:
> A friend of mine has one of these fences that's about 178cm (5'10")
> tall:
>
> http://stratco.com.au/products/fencing/types/good_neighbour/good_neighbour.asp
>
> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in. I
> know full well that there are numerous commercially available products
> that will stop cats (along with other animals) climbing fences. I'm
> sure they do work, but they're all fairly pricey, particularly if
> attempting to cover a significant length of fencing. I'm now thinking
> about trying a home-rigged set up. I'm considering getting a whole
> heap of empty 2 Litre plastic softdrink bottles (Soda bottles to any
> USA readers), then cutting off the base and neck of the bottles, then
> cutting them lengthwise, then siliconing them to the tops of the fence
> so the sides of the bottles "curve downwards" from the top of the
> fence. I'm thinking this curved plastic will be too smooth and
> slippery for a cat to get any grip with it's claws. I have no problem
> with spending some time getting this to work, but I want to keep the
> cost down, so spending lots of $$$ isn't happening.
>
> I was wondering if anyone has attempted anything like this, and if
> they can offer any advice. Thanks.
>
> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.

I have a friend who built a, "cateo" for his cats, and covered it with
chicken wire fencing, which lets in the fresh air and sunshine, but keeps
the cats from getting out. This was fairly easy and inexpensive for him to
do. and his cats love spending time out there. He can also grow flowers out
there.....

chaniarts[_2_]
August 16th 12, 04:32 PM
On 8/15/2012 2:01 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> Gas Bag wrote:
>> A friend of mine has one of these fences that's about 178cm (5'10")
>> tall:
>>
>> http://stratco.com.au/products/fencing/types/good_neighbour/good_neighbour.asp
>>
>>
>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in. I
>> know full well that there are numerous commercially available products
>> that will stop cats (along with other animals) climbing fences. I'm
>> sure they do work, but they're all fairly pricey, particularly if
>> attempting to cover a significant length of fencing. I'm now thinking
>> about trying a home-rigged set up. I'm considering getting a whole
>> heap of empty 2 Litre plastic softdrink bottles (Soda bottles to any
>> USA readers), then cutting off the base and neck of the bottles, then
>> cutting them lengthwise, then siliconing them to the tops of the fence
>> so the sides of the bottles "curve downwards" from the top of the
>> fence. I'm thinking this curved plastic will be too smooth and
>> slippery for a cat to get any grip with it's claws. I have no problem
>> with spending some time getting this to work, but I want to keep the
>> cost down, so spending lots of $$$ isn't happening.
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has attempted anything like this, and if
>> they can offer any advice. Thanks.
>>
>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
> I have a friend who built a, "cateo" for his cats, and covered it with
> chicken wire fencing, which lets in the fresh air and sunshine, but
> keeps the cats from getting out. This was fairly easy and inexpensive
> for him to do. and his cats love spending time out there. He can also
> grow flowers out there.....

i built one of these too. 12x12x8' with lots of internal ramps. i had to
use thin plywood for the first couple of feet to keep the rattlesnakes
and coyote's out, and it had a chickenwire roof to keep the owls and
hawks out too.

Brooklyn1
August 17th 12, 01:59 AM
Gas Bag wrote:
>
> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.

Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.

dgk
August 17th 12, 03:08 PM
On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

>Gas Bag wrote:
>>
>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.


Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
home.

Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.

But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
heated birdbath.

For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

Higgs Boson
August 17th 12, 08:53 PM
On Aug 17, 7:08*am, dgk > wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> >Gas Bag wrote:
>
> >> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> >> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> >> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
> >Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
> city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
> get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
> home.
>
> Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
> raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
> into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
> tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
> breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.

***My cat specializes in losing breakaway collars with the name tags I
paid to have made. I finally gave up. He's chipped, so if he's found
and the finders have enough sense to call the local shelter, he could
potentially be located.

One thing: I was warned a few years ago to KEEP HIM INDOORS on
Halloween; black cat. So I bring him in during the day, set up food
and toilet, and don't let him out till next day.-
>
> But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
> the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
> air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
> twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
> the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
> up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
> heated birdbath.

***Hah! Me too! I saved a bird just the other day and confined it
briefly until it settled down enough to fly away. [Censored]
generations of mocking-birds have been teasing the cats all these
years, and some of them go too far!
>
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

FOUR CHEERS! I view with dismay the idea of cooping up an animal in
an unnatural environment just for the selfish enjoyment of the owner!
If that goes for cats, which I've had all my life, imagine how much
more it goes for dogs, especially HUGE dogs shut up in a small
apartment, and afforded only a daily walk by the perhaps conscientious
but normally busy owner, employed or not.

HB

Brooklyn1
August 17th 12, 09:40 PM
dgk wrote:
>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 18th 12, 08:12 AM
"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
> Gas Bag wrote:
>>
>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.

I agree there. It saddens me to get the mail now. Every few days there is
a new poster of a missing cat on the mailbox. I constantly see cats roaming
the neighborhood and frequently we see them in our backyard at night. I
don't know who owned the black one with white paws but I saw it at the side
of the road. Looked pretty dead.

Not only do we have some wild drivers on this street but I think there are
also coyotes. Some were spotted not far from here.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 18th 12, 08:15 AM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
> city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
> get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
> home.
>
> Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
> raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
> into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
> tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
> breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.
>
> But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
> the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
> air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
> twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
> the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
> up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
> heated birdbath.
>
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

Cats do love that but... Unless I had the money to build a very specific
type of cat enclosure, I wouldn't let my cats outside. Would have to be
something to keep them very safe. But even with something like that, the
cat could get fleas or maybe eat a bird or a rodent and then maybe get
worms. Our baby cat has had two kinds of worms now. I don't know how she
got them. She lives indoors. She did have the lung worms when we got her.
Not sure about the round worms unless perhaps she got them from eating a
bug. She and mom did get a moth in here just prior.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 18th 12, 08:21 AM
"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
> dgk wrote:
>>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>
>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>
>>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>>Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.

Yes. I saw a bumper sticker online that said, "I'd rather be inside and fat
than outside and flat."

I am sure that my momma cat was probably outside at some point in her life.
She and her babies were found in an abandoned house and they had to get food
from somewhere. But now she never tries to get out. Never. She is
perfectly happy as a house cat.

Now the baby? Well she isn't actually a baby any more since she is over a
year old but... She is the one they named that phrase after about how
curiosity killed the cat. She is very interested in the garage for some
reason. I don't want her out there because there are all sorts of little
hidey holes and some are up high. She can jump up high. We did once have a
rat get in there during the winter and it died somewhere in the wall. Would
be horrible if she were to suffer the same fate. So I will walk her out
there in my arms and show her around. Nothing of interest to her, I
wouldn't think. Just some canned goods, soda pop, Christmas lights, a few
tools... But one day she came very close to getting to the outside!
Apparently I did not shut the door from the laundry room fully and she
pushed it open. She was walking very slowly and cautiously towards the
opening of the garage. Mom was in the laundry room looking very worried and
calling to her. Luckily I was able to pick her up and bring her back
inside.

Brooklyn1
August 18th 12, 03:14 PM
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 00:21:27 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:

>
>"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
>> dgk wrote:
>>>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>
>>>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>
>>>Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>
>Yes. I saw a bumper sticker online that said, "I'd rather be inside and fat
>than outside and flat."
>
>I am sure that my momma cat was probably outside at some point in her life.
>She and her babies were found in an abandoned house and they had to get food
>from somewhere. But now she never tries to get out. Never. She is
>perfectly happy as a house cat.
>
>Now the baby? Well she isn't actually a baby any more since she is over a
>year old but... She is the one they named that phrase after about how
>curiosity killed the cat. She is very interested in the garage for some
>reason. I don't want her out there because there are all sorts of little
>hidey holes and some are up high. She can jump up high. We did once have a
>rat get in there during the winter and it died somewhere in the wall. Would
>be horrible if she were to suffer the same fate. So I will walk her out
>there in my arms and show her around. Nothing of interest to her, I
>wouldn't think. Just some canned goods, soda pop, Christmas lights, a few
>tools... But one day she came very close to getting to the outside!
>Apparently I did not shut the door from the laundry room fully and she
>pushed it open. She was walking very slowly and cautiously towards the
>opening of the garage. Mom was in the laundry room looking very worried and
>calling to her. Luckily I was able to pick her up and bring her back
>inside.

Domestic cats live happily indoors, they do fine with a window but
mostly they need cat companionship so always have at least two,
preferably from the same litter. Contrary to what many believe cats
are not loners, they are very social, moreso then dogs. Cats live a
shortened life outdoors, they are more likely to become road kill than
wild animals as domestic cats don't possess nearly the same level of
survival skills. Feral cats have excellent survival skills outdoors
but they don't live long due to poor diet and disease. There are many
types of outdoor cat enclosures but none protect against deadly
parasites and poisonings (cats will catch and eat insects that contain
insectide), and outdoor animals of all kinds are very susceptible to
overspray from thoughtless gardeners, you won't know until it's too
late. I can go on but bottom line is giving a cat a good home means
keeping it indoors. The pinheads who put cats outdoors are simply too
lazy and cheap to deal with cat litter, with the low IQ rationalizing
about cats are happier outdoors, BULL****, the morons are happier with
cats outdoors because the cheap lazy *******s don't need to buy and
deal with cat litter. Cats are very happy indoors, even in a small
apartment, again all they need is a window and a playmate. Many of my
neighbors let their cats out, invaribly I'll see them flattened on the
road. My cats never go out... however I do have a feral cat living in
my barn, can't get close enough to know if Newt is a boy or a girl, I
bring it food and water every day and eventually plan on capturing and
bringing it to a Vet. This is Newt heading back home to his barn a
few minutes ago for breakfast, Newt runs off when I approach to put
out food, photographed at 600', a very good looking cat:
http://i48.tinypic.com/nwzmf9.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/o074ub.jpg
Earlier this morning, the twins:
http://i46.tinypic.com/zmqf4.jpg
http://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.html

Bill Graham
August 19th 12, 01:21 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
> city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
> get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
> home.
>
> Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
> raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
> into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
> tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
> breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.
>
> But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
> the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
> air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
> twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
> the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
> up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
> heated birdbath.
>
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

Hear, hear! I agree with you 100%. I lost one outside cat in my entire life,
and even he enjoyed being outsidfe in the neighborhood so much, that if I
had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. Some cats are just
naturally gregarious, and keeping them locked up inside a house would be a
crime.

There is more to life than just breathing, as Patrick Henry would tell you.
The joy and friendship my B-K gave to others in the neighborhood, (even the
dogs) made his freedom mandatory....

Bill Graham
August 19th 12, 01:27 AM
Brooklyn1 wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>
>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>
>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.

Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what little
time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my cats. Only a stupid
liberal would trade freedom for a longer life, and then have the gall to
impose their poor choice on the rest of the world......

Bill Graham
August 19th 12, 01:39 AM
Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 00:21:27 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>
>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>
>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>
>> Yes. I saw a bumper sticker online that said, "I'd rather be inside
>> and fat than outside and flat."
>>
>> I am sure that my momma cat was probably outside at some point in
>> her life. She and her babies were found in an abandoned house and
>> they had to get food from somewhere. But now she never tries to get
>> out. Never. She is perfectly happy as a house cat.
>>
>> Now the baby? Well she isn't actually a baby any more since she is
>> over a year old but... She is the one they named that phrase after
>> about how curiosity killed the cat. She is very interested in the
>> garage for some reason. I don't want her out there because there
>> are all sorts of little hidey holes and some are up high. She can
>> jump up high. We did once have a rat get in there during the winter
>> and it died somewhere in the wall. Would be horrible if she were to
>> suffer the same fate. So I will walk her out there in my arms and
>> show her around. Nothing of interest to her, I wouldn't think.
>> Just some canned goods, soda pop, Christmas lights, a few tools...
>> But one day she came very close to getting to the outside!
>> Apparently I did not shut the door from the laundry room fully and
>> she pushed it open. She was walking very slowly and cautiously
>> towards the opening of the garage. Mom was in the laundry room
>> looking very worried and calling to her. Luckily I was able to pick
>> her up and bring her back inside.
>
> Domestic cats live happily indoors, they do fine with a window but
> mostly they need cat companionship so always have at least two,
> preferably from the same litter. Contrary to what many believe cats
> are not loners, they are very social, moreso then dogs. Cats live a
> shortened life outdoors, they are more likely to become road kill than
> wild animals as domestic cats don't possess nearly the same level of
> survival skills. Feral cats have excellent survival skills outdoors
> but they don't live long due to poor diet and disease. There are many
> types of outdoor cat enclosures but none protect against deadly
> parasites and poisonings (cats will catch and eat insects that contain
> insectide), and outdoor animals of all kinds are very susceptible to
> overspray from thoughtless gardeners, you won't know until it's too
> late. I can go on but bottom line is giving a cat a good home means
> keeping it indoors. The pinheads who put cats outdoors are simply too
> lazy and cheap to deal with cat litter, with the low IQ rationalizing
> about cats are happier outdoors, BULL****, the morons are happier with
> cats outdoors because the cheap lazy *******s don't need to buy and
> deal with cat litter. Cats are very happy indoors, even in a small
> apartment, again all they need is a window and a playmate. Many of my
> neighbors let their cats out, invaribly I'll see them flattened on the
> road. My cats never go out... however I do have a feral cat living in
> my barn, can't get close enough to know if Newt is a boy or a girl, I
> bring it food and water every day and eventually plan on capturing and
> bringing it to a Vet. This is Newt heading back home to his barn a
> few minutes ago for breakfast, Newt runs off when I approach to put
> out food, photographed at 600', a very good looking cat:
> http://i48.tinypic.com/nwzmf9.jpg
> http://i49.tinypic.com/o074ub.jpg
> Earlier this morning, the twins:
> http://i46.tinypic.com/zmqf4.jpg
> http://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.html

If you live in a dangerous environment for cats, then either keep them
indoors, or don't keep them at all. But there are some other people in the
world (like me)that live in a very safe environment for cats, And these
people keep outside cats. I wouldn't presume to tell others how to keep
their cats, and I resent it when others tell me how to keep mine. All of my
cats were aquired by me as grown cats, who just wandered onto my property
and liked the cut of my jib, and decided to stay. I wouldn't lock them up
any more than our local police station makes a habit of apprehending people
on the street and locking them up.

I don't force feed my cats either. I offer them something to eat. They have
the option of eating it, or not.....

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 19th 12, 07:29 AM
"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 00:21:27 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>>
>>>>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>
>>>>Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>
>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>
>>Yes. I saw a bumper sticker online that said, "I'd rather be inside and
>>fat
>>than outside and flat."
>>
>>I am sure that my momma cat was probably outside at some point in her
>>life.
>>She and her babies were found in an abandoned house and they had to get
>>food
>>from somewhere. But now she never tries to get out. Never. She is
>>perfectly happy as a house cat.
>>
>>Now the baby? Well she isn't actually a baby any more since she is over a
>>year old but... She is the one they named that phrase after about how
>>curiosity killed the cat. She is very interested in the garage for some
>>reason. I don't want her out there because there are all sorts of little
>>hidey holes and some are up high. She can jump up high. We did once have
>>a
>>rat get in there during the winter and it died somewhere in the wall.
>>Would
>>be horrible if she were to suffer the same fate. So I will walk her out
>>there in my arms and show her around. Nothing of interest to her, I
>>wouldn't think. Just some canned goods, soda pop, Christmas lights, a few
>>tools... But one day she came very close to getting to the outside!
>>Apparently I did not shut the door from the laundry room fully and she
>>pushed it open. She was walking very slowly and cautiously towards the
>>opening of the garage. Mom was in the laundry room looking very worried
>>and
>>calling to her. Luckily I was able to pick her up and bring her back
>>inside.
>
> Domestic cats live happily indoors, they do fine with a window but
> mostly they need cat companionship so always have at least two,
> preferably from the same litter. Contrary to what many believe cats
> are not loners, they are very social, moreso then dogs. Cats live a
> shortened life outdoors, they are more likely to become road kill than
> wild animals as domestic cats don't possess nearly the same level of
> survival skills. Feral cats have excellent survival skills outdoors
> but they don't live long due to poor diet and disease. There are many
> types of outdoor cat enclosures but none protect against deadly
> parasites and poisonings (cats will catch and eat insects that contain
> insectide), and outdoor animals of all kinds are very susceptible to
> overspray from thoughtless gardeners, you won't know until it's too
> late. I can go on but bottom line is giving a cat a good home means
> keeping it indoors. The pinheads who put cats outdoors are simply too
> lazy and cheap to deal with cat litter, with the low IQ rationalizing
> about cats are happier outdoors, BULL****, the morons are happier with
> cats outdoors because the cheap lazy *******s don't need to buy and
> deal with cat litter. Cats are very happy indoors, even in a small
> apartment, again all they need is a window and a playmate. Many of my
> neighbors let their cats out, invaribly I'll see them flattened on the
> road. My cats never go out... however I do have a feral cat living in
> my barn, can't get close enough to know if Newt is a boy or a girl, I
> bring it food and water every day and eventually plan on capturing and
> bringing it to a Vet. This is Newt heading back home to his barn a
> few minutes ago for breakfast, Newt runs off when I approach to put
> out food, photographed at 600', a very good looking cat:
> http://i48.tinypic.com/nwzmf9.jpg
> http://i49.tinypic.com/o074ub.jpg
> Earlier this morning, the twins:
> http://i46.tinypic.com/zmqf4.jpg
> http://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.html

That is why we got two. When I had Maui, she would not tolerate any other
cats and really most other humans. She was taken from her mom at too young
of an age but I didn't know this until I took her to the vet. The person
who sold her to me said she was older than she was. So she became overly
fond of me and also my husband and then to my daughter once she was born.
But she wasn't very kind to most other humans.

Higgs Boson
August 19th 12, 08:07 AM
On Aug 18, 5:27*pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> > dgk wrote:
> >> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>> Gas Bag wrote:
>
> >>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> >>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> >>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
> >>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
> >> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> > What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
> > cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>
> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what little
> time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my cats. Only a stupid
> liberal would trade freedom for a longer life, and then have the gall to
> impose their poor choice on the rest of the world......

Amazing how they can drag their Neanderthal politics into everything--
even a discussion about cats.

HB

dgk
August 20th 12, 07:50 PM
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>
>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>
>Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what little
>time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my cats. Only a stupid
>liberal would trade freedom for a longer life, and then have the gall to
>impose their poor choice on the rest of the world......

Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.

Bill Graham
August 21st 12, 04:04 AM
Higgs Boson wrote:
> On Aug 18, 5:27 pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>> suburb.
>>
>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>
>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>> the world......
>
> Amazing how they can drag their Neanderthal politics into everything--
> even a discussion about cats.
>

Both cats and people (including Neanderthals) deserve freedom.... Or, at
least, the choice....

Bill Graham
August 21st 12, 04:12 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>
>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>
>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>
>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>> the world......
>
> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.

Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.

dgk
August 24th 12, 01:51 PM
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>
>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>
>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>> the world......
>>
>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>
>Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
>following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
>should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.

I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.

No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
on government as increasing corporate power.

Billy[_3_]
August 24th 12, 04:24 PM
In article >,
dgk > wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
> >dgk wrote:
> >> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
> >>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
> >>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
> >>>>>>> suburb.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
> >>>>
> >>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
> >>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
> >>>
> >>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
> >>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
> >>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
> >>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
> >>> the world......
> >>
> >> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
> >
> >Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
> >following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
> >should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>
> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>
> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
> on government as increasing corporate power.

<http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-priorities-to-rebuild-the-amer
ican-dream/>

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Higgs Boson
August 24th 12, 08:02 PM
On Aug 24, 5:51*am, dgk > wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >dgk wrote:
> >> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
> >>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
> >>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
> >>>>>>> suburb.
>
> >>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
> >>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> >>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
> >>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>
> >>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
> >>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
> >>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
> >>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
> >>> the world......
>
> >> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>
> >Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
> >following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
> >should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>
> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>
> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian.

****In the immortal words of Samuel Goldwyn:

INCLUDE ME OUT!!! (apocriphyl - apocryphil - apocryphal) I am a
thinking adult, not a whining overgrown child.

At the slightest whiff of Libertarianism, I take a long hot shower.

But there are limits and
> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
> on government as increasing corporate power.

****Uh...since the government is pretty much sold out to Our Corporate
Masters anyway, the only ones getting hurt are the most vulnerable.
You know who they are...unless you exist in a separate universe like
Mitt.

Bill Graham
August 25th 12, 07:21 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>> the world......
>>>
>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>
>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>> anyone from doing it.
>
> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>
> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
> on government as increasing corporate power.

In my experience, I find that liberals will choose government over
individuals or corporate entities. For example, if a corporate entity bribes
a government official, the liberal is most likely to immediately blame the
corporate entity, whereas, I will find the government official to be most
despicable. After all, corporations have to compete, and if they suspect
their competition of bribing the government, then they are forced to do
likewise. But our representatives are expected (by me) to be not corrupted.
They have the public's trust, and are most culpable in my mind...

Bill Graham
August 25th 12, 07:34 AM
Billy wrote:
> In article >,
> dgk > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>>> the world......
>>>>
>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>
>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>>> anyone from doing it.
>>
>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>
>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.

Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we insist
that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your health,
such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a helmit, or
smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems that we will
have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something, and then use
their socialization as an excuse to control it.
Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they say,
"You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become injured
by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds. Therefore we
are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats locked up at
all times."

I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed with
such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would go.)

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 25th 12, 08:03 AM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>>dgk wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>>>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>> the world......
>>>
>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>
>>Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have
>>the
>>following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
>>should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>
> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>
> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
> on government as increasing corporate power.

I am a liberal and although I dislike politics, if I had to choose a party I
guess libertarian would be the one I would identify with the most. There
are some things that they are for that I am not although what it is now
escapes me.

I think for the most part people should be allowed to do what they want to
do provided they are not hurting anyone, including themselves. I do dislike
guns. I personally know too many people who have been permanently injured
or even killed by them. Yes, stupid accidents. But accidents that wouldn't
have happened if there were no gun. I do know some people are into hunting.
I am not. I guess that is their right. And I guess an exception would have
to be made there. Obviously police and military need weapons. I guess I
really just don't want to think about it. Things like this make my brain
hurt.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 25th 12, 08:10 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
> Billy wrote:
>> In article >,
>> dgk > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>>>> the world......
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>>
>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>>>> anyone from doing it.
>>>
>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>>
>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>
> Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
> medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
> they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
> giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we
> insist that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your
> health, such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a
> helmit, or smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems
> that we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
> and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
> Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
> taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they
> say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become
> injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds.
> Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats
> locked up at all times."
>
> I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed
> with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would
> go.)

I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in countries
that have it and I do not think and they do not think they are getting good
care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one friend who has had such
problems that she could write a novel on it. Of course one doesn't have to
have socialized medicine to have problems. I have had enough here in the
USA.

My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area and there
is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and her dog run free.
The only car they might get hit by is by her, her mom or a visitor. But
there are wild animals out there.

So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car or
killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or some wild
animal... I just don't want to hear about it!

It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of the house
on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to let it out loose?
And then come whining to me because it was flattened by a car? Or eaten by
a coyote? And yeah, that has happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 25th 12, 08:12 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
> dgk wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>>> the world......
>>>>
>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>
>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>>> anyone from doing it.
>>
>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
>> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>
>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
>> on government as increasing corporate power.
>
> In my experience, I find that liberals will choose government over
> individuals or corporate entities. For example, if a corporate entity
> bribes a government official, the liberal is most likely to immediately
> blame the corporate entity, whereas, I will find the government official
> to be most despicable. After all, corporations have to compete, and if
> they suspect their competition of bribing the government, then they are
> forced to do likewise. But our representatives are expected (by me) to be
> not corrupted. They have the public's trust, and are most culpable in my
> mind...

Oh bah! I don't choose either one. Yes, I know that we need both for
various reasons. I know there are corrupt people out there all over the
place. I also know there isn't a danged thing I can do about it. So mostly
I just stay out of it. I try to take care of myself.

Brooklyn1
August 25th 12, 12:18 PM
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:10:22 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:

>
>"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
>> Billy wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> dgk > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>>>>> the world......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>>>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>>>>> anyone from doing it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>>>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>>>
>>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>>
>> Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
>> medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
>> they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
>> giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we
>> insist that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your
>> health, such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a
>> helmit, or smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems
>> that we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
>> and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
>> Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
>> taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they
>> say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become
>> injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds.
>> Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats
>> locked up at all times."
>>
>> I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed
>> with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would
>> go.)
>
>I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in countries
>that have it and I do not think and they do not think they are getting good
>care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one friend who has had such
>problems that she could write a novel on it. Of course one doesn't have to
>have socialized medicine to have problems. I have had enough here in the
>USA.
>
>My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area and there
>is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and her dog run free.
>The only car they might get hit by is by her, her mom or a visitor. But
>there are wild animals out there.
>
>So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car or
>killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or some wild
>animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
>
>It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of the house
>on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to let it out loose?
>And then come whining to me because it was flattened by a car? Or eaten by
>a coyote? And yeah, that has happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.


Those are the same imbeciles who let their four year old play in the
road.

Bill Graham
August 26th 12, 01:14 AM
Julie Bove wrote:
> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>>>>> the world......
>>>>
>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>
>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>> have the
>>> following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then
>>> nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone
>>> from doing it.
>>
>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>
>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>
> I am a liberal and although I dislike politics, if I had to choose a
> party I guess libertarian would be the one I would identify with the
> most. There are some things that they are for that I am not although
> what it is now escapes me.
>
> I think for the most part people should be allowed to do what they
> want to do provided they are not hurting anyone, including
> themselves. I do dislike guns. I personally know too many people
> who have been permanently injured or even killed by them. Yes,
> stupid accidents. But accidents that wouldn't have happened if there
> were no gun. I do know some people are into hunting. I am not. I
> guess that is their right. And I guess an exception would have to be
> made there. Obviously police and military need weapons. I guess I
> really just don't want to think about it. Things like this make my
> brain hurt.

Well, as a libertarian, I have owned and carried a gun most of my life. To
be sure, gun accidents wouldn't happen were there no guns, but then, auto
accidents wouldn't happen were there no cars, either, and, like cars, guns
do have a purpose. I don't hunt, but I don't want to be killed by some
mugger or crazy person either, and carrying a gun gave me comfort and the
courage to go into some fairly dangerous places. If the world were chock
full of policemen so there was one on every corner 24-7, then guns would not
be necessary. But, unfortunately, the police can't prevent crime. There
aren't nearly enough of them for that. They can only hunt down the criminals
after the fact. So, if you want to prevent something bad from happening to
you, you have to do it yourself. When a crime is taking place there will, in
all likelihood be only two people there. You, and the criminal who is out to
harm you. So, you had better be able to defend yourself, and the only way I
know how to do this effectively is to carry a gun and know how to use it.

Bill Graham
August 26th 12, 01:36 AM
Julie Bove wrote:


> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in
> countries that have it and I do not think and they do not think they
> are getting good care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one
> friend who has had such problems that she could write a novel on it. Of
> course one doesn't have to have socialized medicine to have
> problems. I have had enough here in the USA.
>
> My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area and
> there is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and her
> dog run free. The only car they might get hit by is by her, her mom
> or a visitor. But there are wild animals out there.
>
> So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car
> or killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or
> some wild animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
>
> It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of the
> house on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to let
> it out loose? And then come whining to me because it was flattened by
> a car? Or eaten by a coyote? And yeah, that has happened. That
> then is your own fault, IMO.


I have lived in both kinds of environments. Ones that are dangerous to
outside cats and ones that aren't. Right now, I live on a dead end street,
and next to a huge Christmas tree farm, and all of my cats are free to go
and come as they please. I wouldn't recommend that everyone do this, but I
know that there are some circumstancews where it is OK, so I wouldn't try to
tell everyone to do one or the other. If you lived on a farm, I think you
would let your cats go free to chase the chickens.... If there were no free
cats, then I probably wouldn't own any cats. All of my cats were free
roaming animals when I got them. They just happened to wander in one day,
liked the cut of my jib, and decided to stay. I never trapped them, and I
feel that their freedom isn't my business to prevent. If they want to leave,
they can go at any time. But hey! I am a libertarian, so what can you
expect?

If it makes you feel any better, I have found that almost all of my cats
never leave the property. They are quite content to sun themselves out on my
rear deck and are quite safe there. I have never seen a coyote or other
predatory animal on my property, although there was an incident many years
ago where I heard a loud bang, and when I looked outside, there was a large
bird of prey, (like an eagle or osprey) out on the deck, and our cat had
skeedadled through the cat door into the bedroom...
The bird was stunned, but recovered in a few seconds and flew away. I
presume that it had seen our cat (Missy) and tried to take her. But this is
very unusual, and I haven't heard of any of the neighborhood cats getting
into trouble, and the block has about ten of them, and they are all outside
cats.....

Bill Graham
August 26th 12, 01:42 AM
Julie Bove wrote:
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats
>>>>>>>>>> getting in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't
>>>>>>>>>> getting rid of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of
>>>>>>>>>> the cats in her suburb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy
>>>>>>>> being outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want
>>>>>>>> them to be happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying
>>>>>> what little time you have. This is true for me, and also true
>>>>>> for my cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a
>>>>>> longer life, and then have the gall to impose their poor choice
>>>>>> on the rest of the world......
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>>
>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>>>> anyone from doing it.
>>>
>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on
>>> it. No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>>
>> In my experience, I find that liberals will choose government over
>> individuals or corporate entities. For example, if a corporate entity
>> bribes a government official, the liberal is most likely to
>> immediately blame the corporate entity, whereas, I will find the
>> government official to be most despicable. After all, corporations
>> have to compete, and if they suspect their competition of bribing
>> the government, then they are forced to do likewise. But our
>> representatives are expected (by me) to be not corrupted. They have
>> the public's trust, and are most culpable in my mind...
>
> Oh bah! I don't choose either one. Yes, I know that we need both for
> various reasons. I know there are corrupt people out there all over
> the place. I also know there isn't a danged thing I can do about it.
> So mostly I just stay out of it. I try to take care of myself.

Perhaps, but be aware that what others do can directly affect you. Its kind
of like being an isolationist. You can turn your back on the rest of the
world, and say. "what they do in other countries just isn't my business."
And, in 1912 this might have been a pretty good policy, but today, any two
bit dictator could build an atom bomb, and deploy it in the center of New
York City, and kill perhaps a million people, so we can no longer turn our
backs on the rest of the world.

Billy[_3_]
August 26th 12, 02:43 AM
In article >,
"Bill Graham" > wrote:

Would you two mind awfully deleting rec.gardens from your conversation?

> Julie Bove wrote:
> > "dgk" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> dgk wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
> >>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
> >>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
> >>>>>>>>> her suburb.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
> >>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
> >>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
> >>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
> >>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
> >>>>> the world......
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
> >>>
> >>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
> >>> have the
> >>> following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then
> >>> nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone
> >>> from doing it.
> >>
> >> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> >> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> >> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
> >> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> >> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
> >>
> >> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> >> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> >> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
> >> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
> >
> > I am a liberal and although I dislike politics, if I had to choose a
> > party I guess libertarian would be the one I would identify with the
> > most. There are some things that they are for that I am not although
> > what it is now escapes me.
> >
> > I think for the most part people should be allowed to do what they
> > want to do provided they are not hurting anyone, including
> > themselves. I do dislike guns. I personally know too many people
> > who have been permanently injured or even killed by them. Yes,
> > stupid accidents. But accidents that wouldn't have happened if there
> > were no gun. I do know some people are into hunting. I am not. I
> > guess that is their right. And I guess an exception would have to be
> > made there. Obviously police and military need weapons. I guess I
> > really just don't want to think about it. Things like this make my
> > brain hurt.
>
> Well, as a libertarian, I have owned and carried a gun most of my life. To
> be sure, gun accidents wouldn't happen were there no guns, but then, auto
> accidents wouldn't happen were there no cars, either, and, like cars, guns
> do have a purpose. I don't hunt, but I don't want to be killed by some
> mugger or crazy person either, and carrying a gun gave me comfort and the
> courage to go into some fairly dangerous places. If the world were chock
> full of policemen so there was one on every corner 24-7, then guns would not
> be necessary. But, unfortunately, the police can't prevent crime. There
> aren't nearly enough of them for that. They can only hunt down the criminals
> after the fact. So, if you want to prevent something bad from happening to
> you, you have to do it yourself. When a crime is taking place there will, in
> all likelihood be only two people there. You, and the criminal who is out to
> harm you. So, you had better be able to defend yourself, and the only way I
> know how to do this effectively is to carry a gun and know how to use it.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 26th 12, 04:20 AM
Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:10:22 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Billy wrote:
>>>> In article >,
>>>> dgk > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting rid of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy
>>>>>>>>>> being outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want
>>>>>>>>>> them to be happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying
>>>>>>>> what little time you have. This is true for me, and also true
>>>>>>>> for my cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a
>>>>>>>> longer life, and then have the gall to impose their poor
>>>>>>>> choice on the rest of the world......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I
>>>>>> know have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I
>>>>>> wouldn't do it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a
>>>>>> law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>>>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>>>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>>>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to
>>>>> use cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some
>>>>> tax on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>>>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>>>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>>>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>>>
>>> Well, what do you think about the following: The government
>>> socializes medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care
>>> of anyone whether they are insured or not. - Then after a while,
>>> they say, "Since we are giving medical care at the taxpayer's
>>> expense to all who need it, we insist that you don't enguage in any
>>> activities that are dangerous to your health, such as driving
>>> without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a helmit, or
>>> smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems that
>>> we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
>>> and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
>>> Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
>>> taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while,
>>> they say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they
>>> may become injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact
>>> the tax funds. Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that
>>> everyone keep their cats locked up at all times."
>>>
>>> I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who
>>> agreed with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where
>>> my money would go.)
>>
>> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in
>> countries that have it and I do not think and they do not think they
>> are getting good care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one
>> friend who has had such problems that she could write a novel on it.
>> Of course one doesn't have to have socialized medicine to have
>> problems. I have had enough here in the USA.
>>
>> My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area
>> and there is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and
>> her dog run free. The only car they might get hit by is by her, her
>> mom or a visitor. But there are wild animals out there.
>>
>> So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car
>> or killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or
>> some wild animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
>>
>> It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of
>> the house on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to
>> let it out loose? And then come whining to me because it was
>> flattened by a car? Or eaten by a coyote? And yeah, that has
>> happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.
>
>
> Those are the same imbeciles who let their four year old play in the
> road.

That's true.

Billy[_3_]
August 26th 12, 06:02 AM
In article >,
"Julie Bove" > wrote:

> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:10:22 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> Billy wrote:
> >>>> In article >,
> >>>> dgk > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham"
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats
> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting rid of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of the cats in her suburb.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy
> >>>>>>>>>> being outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want
> >>>>>>>>>> them to be happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
> >>>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying
> >>>>>>>> what little time you have. This is true for me, and also true
> >>>>>>>> for my cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a
> >>>>>>>> longer life, and then have the gall to impose their poor
> >>>>>>>> choice on the rest of the world......
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I
> >>>>>> know have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I
> >>>>>> wouldn't do it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a
> >>>>>> law that forbids anyone from doing it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> >>>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> >>>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
> >>>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to
> >>>>> use cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some
> >>>>> tax on it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> >>>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> >>>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
> >>>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
> >>>
> >>> Well, what do you think about the following: The government
> >>> socializes medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care
> >>> of anyone whether they are insured or not. - Then after a while,
> >>> they say, "Since we are giving medical care at the taxpayer's
> >>> expense to all who need it, we insist that you don't enguage in any
> >>> activities that are dangerous to your health, such as driving
> >>> without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a helmit, or
> >>> smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems that
> >>> we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
> >>> and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
> >>> Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
> >>> taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while,
> >>> they say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they
> >>> may become injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact
> >>> the tax funds. Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that
> >>> everyone keep their cats locked up at all times."
> >>>
> >>> I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who
> >>> agreed with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where
> >>> my money would go.)
> >>
> >> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in
> >> countries that have it and I do not think and they do not think they
> >> are getting good care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one
> >> friend who has had such problems that she could write a novel on it.
> >> Of course one doesn't have to have socialized medicine to have
> >> problems. I have had enough here in the USA.
> >>
> >> My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area
> >> and there is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and
> >> her dog run free. The only car they might get hit by is by her, her
> >> mom or a visitor. But there are wild animals out there.
> >>
> >> So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car
> >> or killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or
> >> some wild animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
> >>
> >> It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of
> >> the house on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to
> >> let it out loose? And then come whining to me because it was
> >> flattened by a car? Or eaten by a coyote? And yeah, that has
> >> happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.
> >
> >
> > Those are the same imbeciles who let their four year old play in the
> > road.
>
> That's true.

So you are talking to the local troll Julie. I asked that this
conversation be taken elsewhere, out of rec.gardens, but the troll has
brought it back. Be advise that Brooklyn1, aka Sheldon, Shelly is an
verified asshole. Keep talking to him until he starts drinking again,
and he will tell you what he thinks of Christians, and women's anatomy.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 26th 12, 07:27 AM
"Billy" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>
>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:10:22 -0700, "Julie Bove"
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>> Billy wrote:
>> >>>> In article >,
>> >>>> dgk > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>> >>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> dgk wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>> >>>>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting rid of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of the cats in her suburb.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy
>> >>>>>>>>>> being outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want
>> >>>>>>>>>> them to be happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>> >>>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying
>> >>>>>>>> what little time you have. This is true for me, and also true
>> >>>>>>>> for my cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a
>> >>>>>>>> longer life, and then have the gall to impose their poor
>> >>>>>>>> choice on the rest of the world......
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I
>> >>>>>> know have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I
>> >>>>>> wouldn't do it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a
>> >>>>>> law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> >>>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> >>>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>> >>>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to
>> >>>>> use cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some
>> >>>>> tax on it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> >>>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> >>>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>> >>>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, what do you think about the following: The government
>> >>> socializes medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care
>> >>> of anyone whether they are insured or not. - Then after a while,
>> >>> they say, "Since we are giving medical care at the taxpayer's
>> >>> expense to all who need it, we insist that you don't enguage in any
>> >>> activities that are dangerous to your health, such as driving
>> >>> without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a helmit, or
>> >>> smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems that
>> >>> we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
>> >>> and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
>> >>> Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
>> >>> taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while,
>> >>> they say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they
>> >>> may become injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact
>> >>> the tax funds. Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that
>> >>> everyone keep their cats locked up at all times."
>> >>>
>> >>> I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who
>> >>> agreed with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where
>> >>> my money would go.)
>> >>
>> >> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in
>> >> countries that have it and I do not think and they do not think they
>> >> are getting good care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one
>> >> friend who has had such problems that she could write a novel on it.
>> >> Of course one doesn't have to have socialized medicine to have
>> >> problems. I have had enough here in the USA.
>> >>
>> >> My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area
>> >> and there is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and
>> >> her dog run free. The only car they might get hit by is by her, her
>> >> mom or a visitor. But there are wild animals out there.
>> >>
>> >> So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car
>> >> or killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or
>> >> some wild animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
>> >>
>> >> It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of
>> >> the house on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to
>> >> let it out loose? And then come whining to me because it was
>> >> flattened by a car? Or eaten by a coyote? And yeah, that has
>> >> happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.
>> >
>> >
>> > Those are the same imbeciles who let their four year old play in the
>> > road.
>>
>> That's true.
>
> So you are talking to the local troll Julie. I asked that this
> conversation be taken elsewhere, out of rec.gardens, but the troll has
> brought it back. Be advise that Brooklyn1, aka Sheldon, Shelly is an
> verified asshole. Keep talking to him until he starts drinking again,
> and he will tell you what he thinks of Christians, and women's anatomy.

I do know Sheldon from another group. And I know what he thinks about my
hooters. I don't consider him to be a troll but maybe you do.

Higgs Boson
August 27th 12, 12:28 AM
On Aug 25, 12:10*am, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Billy wrote:
> >> In article >,
> >> dgk > wrote:
>
> >>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
> >>>>> > wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>>> dgk wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
> >>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
> >>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
> >>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
> >>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> >>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
> >>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>
> >>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
> >>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
> >>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
> >>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
> >>>>>> the world......
>
> >>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>
> >>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
> >>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
> >>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
> >>>> anyone from doing it.
>
> >>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
> >>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
> >>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
> >>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
> >>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>
> >>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
> >>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> >>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
> >>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>
> > Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
> > medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
> > they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
> > giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we
> > insist that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your
> > health, such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a
> > helmit, or smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems
> > that we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
> > and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
> > Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
> > taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they
> > say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become
> > injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds.
> > Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats
> > locked up at all times."
>
> > I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed
> > with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would
> > go.)
>
> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in countries
> that have it and I do not think and they do not think they are getting good
> care. *Yes, some have no problems. *But I have one friend who has had such
> problems that she could write a novel on it. *Of course one doesn't have to
> have socialized medicine to have problems. *I have had enough here in the
> USA.
>
> [...]

Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
300,000,000 population.

Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
will soothe your savage breasts.

To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
good products actually HELPS the bottom line.

This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
screws up a viable system.

HB

HB

Brooklyn1
August 27th 12, 01:06 AM
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT), Higgs Boson
> wrote:

>On Aug 25, 12:10*am, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>> "Bill Graham" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Billy wrote:
>> >> In article >,
>> >> dgk > wrote:
>>
>> >>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> >>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>> dgk wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>> >>>>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>> >>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>> >>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>> >>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>> >>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>> >>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>> >>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>> >>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>> >>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>
>> >>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>> >>>>>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>> >>>>>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>> >>>>>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>> >>>>>> the world......
>>
>> >>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>
>> >>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>> >>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do
>> >>>> it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that forbids
>> >>>> anyone from doing it.
>>
>> >>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> >>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> >>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>> >>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>> >>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>
>> >>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> >>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> >>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>> >>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>>
>> > Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
>> > medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
>> > they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
>> > giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we
>> > insist that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your
>> > health, such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a
>> > helmit, or smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems
>> > that we will have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something,
>> > and then use their socialization as an excuse to control it.
>> > Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
>> > taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they
>> > say, "You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become
>> > injured by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds.
>> > Therefore we are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats
>> > locked up at all times."
>>
>> > I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed
>> > with such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would
>> > go.)
>>
>> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in countries
>> that have it and I do not think and they do not think they are getting good
>> care. *Yes, some have no problems. *But I have one friend who has had such
>> problems that she could write a novel on it. *Of course one doesn't have to
>> have socialized medicine to have problems. *I have had enough here in the
>> USA.
>>
>> [...]
>
>Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
>300,000,000 population.
>
>Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
>the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
>""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
>will soothe your savage breasts.
>
>To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
>history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
>is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
>al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
>conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
>heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
>all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
>lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
>good products actually HELPS the bottom line.
>
>This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
>be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
>buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
>screws up a viable system.
>
>HB
>
>HB

HB IS REALLY QUITE MENTALLY ILL... ITS ONLY REASON FOR BEING HERE IS
TO PICK ARGUMENTS ABOUT THAT WHICH HE KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. TO
DATE HB HAS POSTED NOTHING OF VALUE... HAS ANYONE SEEN HIS GARDEN, OF
COURSE NOT, HB LIVES IN A ONE ROOM CELLAR APARTMENT FOR WHICH IT'S
LATE PAYING RENT. HB IS NO KIND OF GARDNER, IT'S HANDS HAVE NEVER
TOUCHED DIRT.

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 27th 12, 03:54 AM
"Higgs Boson" > wrote in message
...
Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
300,000,000 population.

Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
will soothe your savage breasts.


---------
Nope. I don't even like HMO's. After having studied insurance on the brink
of my husband getting a new job I can now say that a lot of it truly sucks.
To say that we all need health insurance or to make it available to everyone
is truly meaningless. As much as I have complained about the medical
insurance that I do have, apparently it is quite good. I consider myself
lucky.

---------

To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
good products actually HELPS the bottom line.

---------

Actually I know pretty much about it seeing as how the brother of one of my
best friends was (not sure if he still is) a member of the Socialist
Worker's Party. I had to listen to him spout off about it far more than I
wanted to. Sounds pretty good on paper but when you think about it, doesn't
work out so well for a lot of people.

This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
screws up a viable system.

-------

Okay... I am one of those people who doesn't really desire to be rich and
famous. As long as I have a roof over my head, enough money to get what I
need, enough to eat, etc., I'm okay. I do donate food to the food bank when
I can and I do give to animal charities when I can. *shrugs*

Bill Graham
August 27th 12, 11:58 PM
Higgs Boson wrote:
> Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
> the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
> ""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
> will soothe your savage breasts.


Yes. It is possible to put sheep's clothing on the wolf. The Brothers Grimm
taught us that many years ago. But that doesn't make it right. It just makes
it liberal....

Bill Graham
August 28th 12, 12:06 AM
Julie Bove wrote:
> "Higgs Boson" > wrote in message
> ...
> Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
> 300,000,000 population.
>
> Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
> the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
> ""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
> will soothe your savage breasts.
>
>
> ---------
> Nope. I don't even like HMO's. After having studied insurance on
> the brink of my husband getting a new job I can now say that a lot of
> it truly sucks. To say that we all need health insurance or to make
> it available to everyone is truly meaningless. As much as I have
> complained about the medical insurance that I do have, apparently it
> is quite good. I consider myself lucky.
>
> ---------
>
> To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
> history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
> is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
> al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
> conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
> heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
> all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
> lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
> good products actually HELPS the bottom line.
>
> ---------
>
> Actually I know pretty much about it seeing as how the brother of one
> of my best friends was (not sure if he still is) a member of the
> Socialist Worker's Party. I had to listen to him spout off about it
> far more than I wanted to. Sounds pretty good on paper but when you
> think about it, doesn't work out so well for a lot of people.
>
> This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
> be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
> buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
> screws up a viable system.
>
> -------
>
> Okay... I am one of those people who doesn't really desire to be
> rich and famous. As long as I have a roof over my head, enough money
> to get what I need, enough to eat, etc., I'm okay. I do donate food
> to the food bank when I can and I do give to animal charities when I
> can. *shrugs*

Capitalism has worked very well for over 250 years. Socialism, on the other
hand is definitely not working in Europe (many countries there are going
broke) and, it doesn't seem to be working very well here, either. (Those
bums who live down under the freeway overpass on welfare checks are
increasing in number) I think I'll stick with capitalism and our
Constitution, thanks.....

Julie Bove[_2_]
August 28th 12, 03:09 AM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in message
...
> Julie Bove wrote:
>> "Higgs Boson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
>> 300,000,000 population.
>>
>> Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
>> the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
>> ""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
>> will soothe your savage breasts.
>>
>>
>> ---------
>> Nope. I don't even like HMO's. After having studied insurance on
>> the brink of my husband getting a new job I can now say that a lot of
>> it truly sucks. To say that we all need health insurance or to make
>> it available to everyone is truly meaningless. As much as I have
>> complained about the medical insurance that I do have, apparently it
>> is quite good. I consider myself lucky.
>>
>> ---------
>>
>> To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
>> history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
>> is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
>> al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
>> conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
>> heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
>> all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
>> lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
>> good products actually HELPS the bottom line.
>>
>> ---------
>>
>> Actually I know pretty much about it seeing as how the brother of one
>> of my best friends was (not sure if he still is) a member of the
>> Socialist Worker's Party. I had to listen to him spout off about it
>> far more than I wanted to. Sounds pretty good on paper but when you
>> think about it, doesn't work out so well for a lot of people.
>>
>> This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
>> be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
>> buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
>> screws up a viable system.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> Okay... I am one of those people who doesn't really desire to be
>> rich and famous. As long as I have a roof over my head, enough money
>> to get what I need, enough to eat, etc., I'm okay. I do donate food
>> to the food bank when I can and I do give to animal charities when I
>> can. *shrugs*
>
> Capitalism has worked very well for over 250 years. Socialism, on the
> other hand is definitely not working in Europe (many countries there are
> going broke) and, it doesn't seem to be working very well here, either.
> (Those bums who live down under the freeway overpass on welfare checks
> are increasing in number) I think I'll stick with capitalism and our
> Constitution, thanks.....

Yep. That's kinda why communes don't work either. I know some people who
tried that back in the 70's. Again, looks good on paper. But get just one
bad seed and...

dgk
August 29th 12, 01:13 PM
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:24:56 -0700, Billy >
wrote:

>In article >,
> dgk > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >dgk wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>> dgk wrote:
>> >>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> >>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>> >>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>> >>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>> >>>>>>> suburb.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>> >>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>> >>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
>> >>>> cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>> >>>
>> >>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what
>> >>> little time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my
>> >>> cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a longer life,
>> >>> and then have the gall to impose their poor choice on the rest of
>> >>> the world......
>> >>
>> >> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>> >
>> >Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
>> >following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
>> >should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.
>>
>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
>> want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.
>>
>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
>> on government as increasing corporate power.
>
><http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-priorities-to-rebuild-the-amer
>ican-dream/>

Yes, that's pretty much the idea.

Bill Graham
September 4th 12, 11:42 PM
dgk wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:24:56 -0700, Billy >
> wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> dgk > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>>> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats
>>>>>>>>>> getting in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't
>>>>>>>>>> getting rid of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of
>>>>>>>>>> the cats in her suburb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy
>>>>>>>> being outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want
>>>>>>>> them to be happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread
>>>>>>> impressions... cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying
>>>>>> what little time you have. This is true for me, and also true
>>>>>> for my cats. Only a stupid liberal would trade freedom for a
>>>>>> longer life, and then have the gall to impose their poor choice
>>>>>> on the rest of the world......
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.
>>>>
>>>> Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know
>>>> have the following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't
>>>> do it, then nobody should do it, so we should make a law that
>>>> forbids anyone from doing it.
>>>
>>> I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
>>> liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
>>> someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body.
>>> You want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
>>> cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on
>>> it.
>>>
>>> No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
>>> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
>>> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the
>>> attack on government as increasing corporate power.
>>
>> <http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-priorities-to-rebuild-the-amer
>> ican-dream/>
>
> Yes, that's pretty much the idea.

Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
for animals and men.

Brooklyn1
September 5th 12, 12:24 AM
"Bill Graham" wrote:
>
>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
>for animals and men.

Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
*******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
trolling.

Julie Bove[_2_]
September 5th 12, 08:06 AM
"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>
>>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
>>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
>>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
>>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
>>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
>>for animals and men.
>
> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
> don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
> trolling.

I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't have them.
I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I had a feed store
say that they would take them but they wound up not doing it. They loaned
me a big kennel for them and I could at least let them sleep in that on the
freezing nights in my house. It was the only thing that kept them safe from
Maui. And they willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.

Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a shelter
that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and neutered, which
he did.

Hopefully they went to a good home.

dgk
September 5th 12, 04:23 PM
On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

>"Bill Graham" wrote:
>>
>>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
>>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
>>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
>>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
>>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
>>for animals and men.
>
>Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
>*******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
>it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
>crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
>believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
>reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
>flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
>don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
>trolling.
>

Maybe he can't afford litter? Maybe he can't afford to take cats to
the vet? I don't know. We all do what we can, that's why we're on
these groups.

I have four cats. I can keep them totally safe, locked in a small
room. Should I do that? If I give them the run of the house, maybe
they'll chew on a wire and get electrocuted. Maybe they'll eat a stray
rubber band and die of a perorated colon. Maybe find a string and eat
that, tying up their intestines. No, I'd better keep them locked in a
small room with nothing that can possible hurt them. Food bowls,
water, litterbox. No cat tree because they might jump off it and break
a leg. If I let them have the run of the house, maybe they'll break a
screen in the window and get out. That actually happend once - they
didn't get out but they could have.

I can't take any more in although I'd like to. Maybe just one more.
And maybe just one more after that. Perhaps stop at 15? 20? That's
called hoarding or collecting. Am I bad for taking care of a few
outside cats but not taking them inside? I've built them shelters, I
feed them, I've had them fixed. And yes, they stand a pretty good
chance of getting run over. I dread that happening, particularly to
the one we call Baby, but I can't fix all the problems in the world. I
can't take in every cat and keep it safe. I'd love to. If I take in
Baby, how about that new grey one that showed up, Buddy? Maybe we
should turn them into some agency where they might get adopted if
sociable enough or, far more likely, killed?

And I do feed the outside cats Friskees or 9Lives or something cheaper
than what I feed the indoor ones. It costs a lot of money, and my
spoiled cats don't even like the good food that they get. For that
matter, they don't like Friskees. They're spoiled. Sure, why buy food
that MIGHT be better for them in the long run when they're likely to
die of some accident before I could find them and get them to a vet?

So we all do what we can. Some of us believe that the quality of the
cat's life, the ability to hunt and to roam is more important than
keeping them in a safe sterile box. I'm the rare third option. Mine go
into a fenced in yard where they can dig and lie in the earth or hide
under bushes as they will. There is some risk, but they love it.
Should I make them stay inside? You think so. I think not. We both
love our cats.

dgk
September 5th 12, 04:26 PM
On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:

>
>"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>
>>>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
>>>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>>>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
>>>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
>>>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
>>>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
>>>for animals and men.
>>
>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
>> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
>> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
>> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
>> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
>> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
>> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
>> don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
>> trolling.
>
>I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't have them.
>I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I had a feed store
>say that they would take them but they wound up not doing it. They loaned
>me a big kennel for them and I could at least let them sleep in that on the
>freezing nights in my house. It was the only thing that kept them safe from
>Maui. And they willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>
>Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a shelter
>that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and neutered, which
>he did.
>
>Hopefully they went to a good home.
>

Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.

Billy[_3_]
September 5th 12, 08:46 PM
In article >,
dgk > wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

Why are you pin heads cross posting to a half dozen groups including
gardener's, consumer's groups? Are you a band of TROLLS? Or are you just
being lead by the anti-Christian Brooklyn1?
-----------
From: Sheldon a.k.a. Brooklyn1 >
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: I would like some feedback..
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT)

Christian wrote:
> I own a business "Professional Pond Maintenance and Fish Care".

That's your first untruth... you *operate* a business.... you don't
own a business until your IRS return doesn't show you're operating at
a loss.

> I'm not here to promote my business.

That's your second untruth.

> I'm wanting to get any and all feedback, positive or negative,
> on a website I designed recently to go with it. I advertise locally
> and direct folks to my site for more information.
>
> Here is the link:http://allyoudoisfeedthefish.net/index.html
>
> What do you think of the basic design?
> Can you read it easily?
> Ads or no ads?
>
> I'm thinking people here are close to my target audience, being that
> garden lovers usually like ponds even if they don't personally have
> one.
>
> Thank You,
> Christian

Your parents must have had high hopes for you to succeed in the
arts... you're not going to do well in business unless you change your
name.
----------


>
> >"Bill Graham" wrote:
> >>
> >>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
> >>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
> >>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
> >>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
> >>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
> >>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
> >>for animals and men.
> >
> >Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
> >*******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
> >it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
> >crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
> >believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
> >reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
> >flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
> >don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
> >trolling.
> >
>
> Maybe he can't afford litter? Maybe he can't afford to take cats to
> the vet? I don't know. We all do what we can, that's why we're on
> these groups.
>
> I have four cats. I can keep them totally safe, locked in a small
> room. Should I do that? If I give them the run of the house, maybe
> they'll chew on a wire and get electrocuted. Maybe they'll eat a stray
> rubber band and die of a perorated colon. Maybe find a string and eat
> that, tying up their intestines. No, I'd better keep them locked in a
> small room with nothing that can possible hurt them. Food bowls,
> water, litterbox. No cat tree because they might jump off it and break
> a leg. If I let them have the run of the house, maybe they'll break a
> screen in the window and get out. That actually happend once - they
> didn't get out but they could have.
>
> I can't take any more in although I'd like to. Maybe just one more.
> And maybe just one more after that. Perhaps stop at 15? 20? That's
> called hoarding or collecting. Am I bad for taking care of a few
> outside cats but not taking them inside? I've built them shelters, I
> feed them, I've had them fixed. And yes, they stand a pretty good
> chance of getting run over. I dread that happening, particularly to
> the one we call Baby, but I can't fix all the problems in the world. I
> can't take in every cat and keep it safe. I'd love to. If I take in
> Baby, how about that new grey one that showed up, Buddy? Maybe we
> should turn them into some agency where they might get adopted if
> sociable enough or, far more likely, killed?
>
> And I do feed the outside cats Friskees or 9Lives or something cheaper
> than what I feed the indoor ones. It costs a lot of money, and my
> spoiled cats don't even like the good food that they get. For that
> matter, they don't like Friskees. They're spoiled. Sure, why buy food
> that MIGHT be better for them in the long run when they're likely to
> die of some accident before I could find them and get them to a vet?
>
> So we all do what we can. Some of us believe that the quality of the
> cat's life, the ability to hunt and to roam is more important than
> keeping them in a safe sterile box. I'm the rare third option. Mine go
> into a fenced in yard where they can dig and lie in the earth or hide
> under bushes as they will. There is some risk, but they love it.
> Should I make them stay inside? You think so. I think not. We both
> love our cats.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Julie Bove[_2_]
September 5th 12, 10:32 PM
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
...
>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed
>>>>them
>>>>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>>>>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me,
>>>>and
>>>>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose
>>>>to
>>>>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and
>>>>for
>>>>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century,
>>>>both
>>>>for animals and men.
>>>
>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
>>> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
>>> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
>>> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
>>> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
>>> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
>>> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
>>> don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
>>> trolling.
>>
>>I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't have
>>them.
>>I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I had a feed
>>store
>>say that they would take them but they wound up not doing it. They loaned
>>me a big kennel for them and I could at least let them sleep in that on
>>the
>>freezing nights in my house. It was the only thing that kept them safe
>>from
>>Maui. And they willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>>
>>Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>>shelter
>>that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and neutered,
>>which
>>he did.
>>
>>Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>
>
> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
> can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
> PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
> their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.

True but we were having a severe winter and the kitten got damage to her paw
pads from being out in the cold. So they needed medical attention.

Billy[_3_]
September 6th 12, 02:10 AM
In article >,
"Julie Bove" > wrote:

Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo, Julie. You don't care if your being a
troll, or are you just unconscious?

> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
> ...
> >>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed
> >>>>them
> >>>>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
> >>>>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me,
> >>>>and
> >>>>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose
> >>>>to
> >>>>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and
> >>>>for
> >>>>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century,
> >>>>both
> >>>>for animals and men.
> >>>
> >>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
> >>> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
> >>> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
> >>> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
> >>> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
> >>> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
> >>> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
> >>> don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
> >>> trolling.
> >>
> >>I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't have
> >>them.
> >>I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I had a feed
> >>store
> >>say that they would take them but they wound up not doing it. They loaned
> >>me a big kennel for them and I could at least let them sleep in that on
> >>the
> >>freezing nights in my house. It was the only thing that kept them safe
> >>from
> >>Maui. And they willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
> >>
> >>Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
> >>shelter
> >>that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and neutered,
> >>which
> >>he did.
> >>
> >>Hopefully they went to a good home.
> >>
> >
> > Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
> > than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
> > can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
> > PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
> > their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.
>
> True but we were having a severe winter and the kitten got damage to her paw
> pads from being out in the cold. So they needed medical attention.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Julie Bove[_2_]
September 6th 12, 05:28 AM
"Billy" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>
> Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo, Julie. You don't care if your being a
> troll, or are you just unconscious?

I'm not being a troll.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 06:39 AM
Julie Bove wrote:
> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
> ...
>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that the
>>> door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended (or
>>> should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals and
>>> men.
>>
>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
>> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
>> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
>> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
>> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
>> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
>> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you...
>> I don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
>> trolling.
>
> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I
> had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up not
> doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at least
> let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. It was
> the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they willingly
> came in to sleep. I did feed them.
> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and
> neutered, which he did.
>
> Hopefully they went to a good home.

Yes, it can be rather expensive. We have a roving vet who makes house calls
in the Salem area, (where we live)and with five cats, it costs us over a
thousand dollars a year to keep them in good health. Oddly enough, our feral
cat, Smokey has cost us the least. Two of the females had to have operations
that ran about $800 each. One had har thyroid glands removed, and the other
had a hairball in her stomach that made it swell up until it filled her
whole abdoman. We thought it was a tumor, and we told the vet to put her
down if they couldn't remove it all. The vet opened her up, saw that it was
her stomache, opened that up, and just removed a baseball sized hairball!
Today she is fine, and that was several years ago. But at our age, my wife
and I have few hobbies, so we don't mind paying for our kitty's health.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 06:47 AM
Brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>
>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that the
>> door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended (or
>> should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals and
>> men.
>
> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
> don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
> trolling.

Truth is, only one of our five cats goes outside to do her thing. The other
four all use the two litter boxes we keep in the house. But I know that it
is impossibler to tell a liberal anthing. They all know it all, and can't be
convinced by anything anyone else could say to them.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 06:55 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that the
>>> door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended (or
>>> should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals and
>>> men.
>>
>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
>> *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
>> it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
>> crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
>> believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
>> reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
>> flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you...
>> I don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
>> trolling.
>>
>
> Maybe he can't afford litter? Maybe he can't afford to take cats to
> the vet? I don't know. We all do what we can, that's why we're on
> these groups.
>
> I have four cats. I can keep them totally safe, locked in a small
> room. Should I do that? If I give them the run of the house, maybe
> they'll chew on a wire and get electrocuted. Maybe they'll eat a stray
> rubber band and die of a perorated colon. Maybe find a string and eat
> that, tying up their intestines. No, I'd better keep them locked in a
> small room with nothing that can possible hurt them. Food bowls,
> water, litterbox. No cat tree because they might jump off it and break
> a leg. If I let them have the run of the house, maybe they'll break a
> screen in the window and get out. That actually happend once - they
> didn't get out but they could have.
>
> I can't take any more in although I'd like to. Maybe just one more.
> And maybe just one more after that. Perhaps stop at 15? 20? That's
> called hoarding or collecting. Am I bad for taking care of a few
> outside cats but not taking them inside? I've built them shelters, I
> feed them, I've had them fixed. And yes, they stand a pretty good
> chance of getting run over. I dread that happening, particularly to
> the one we call Baby, but I can't fix all the problems in the world. I
> can't take in every cat and keep it safe. I'd love to. If I take in
> Baby, how about that new grey one that showed up, Buddy? Maybe we
> should turn them into some agency where they might get adopted if
> sociable enough or, far more likely, killed?
>
> And I do feed the outside cats Friskees or 9Lives or something cheaper
> than what I feed the indoor ones. It costs a lot of money, and my
> spoiled cats don't even like the good food that they get. For that
> matter, they don't like Friskees. They're spoiled. Sure, why buy food
> that MIGHT be better for them in the long run when they're likely to
> die of some accident before I could find them and get them to a vet?
>
> So we all do what we can. Some of us believe that the quality of the
> cat's life, the ability to hunt and to roam is more important than
> keeping them in a safe sterile box. I'm the rare third option. Mine go
> into a fenced in yard where they can dig and lie in the earth or hide
> under bushes as they will. There is some risk, but they love it.
> Should I make them stay inside? You think so. I think not. We both
> love our cats.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that I can't afford to keep my five
cats in good health. I retired in 1996 with almost a million dollars. Today,
at 77, I am still worth a half million. Our cats get the best of medical
care from a roving vet who sees all of them about once every six months, and
we have had two of them get life saving operations at about 800 dollars
each. Just because they are "outside cats" who have front and rear cat doors
they can use at any time of the day or night, doesn't mean that they are not
well cared for at all.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 07:00 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that
>>>> the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended
>>>> (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals
>>>> and men.
>>>
>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
>>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
>>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
>>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
>>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
>>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
>>> you'll find flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake
>>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
>>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>>
>> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
>> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
>> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
>> not doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
>> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. It
>> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they
>> willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>>
>> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and
>> neutered, which he did.
>>
>> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>
>
> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
> can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
> PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
> their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.

I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got them, and
living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them down than imprison
them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as Patrick Henry believed: Give
me liberty or give me death! As I said here once before: Only a stupid
liberal thinks length of life is more important than quality of life.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 07:03 AM
Billy wrote:
> In article >,
> dgk > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
> Why are you pin heads cross posting to a half dozen groups including
> gardener's, consumer's groups? Are you a band of TROLLS? Or are you
> just being lead by the anti-Christian Brooklyn1?

I don't know how to not cross post. How do you know from which of several
groups listed in the header the person you are answering is posting from?
Ande, if you don't know, then how can you eliminate any of the groups
without removing the one that you want to answer? So, I post to whoefver is
in the header that is already there.

Bill Graham
September 10th 12, 07:13 AM
Julie Bove wrote:
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>>
>> Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo, Julie. You don't care if your being a
>> troll, or are you just unconscious?
>
> I'm not being a troll.

On usenet, a "troll" is anyone with whom you disagree......

dgk
September 10th 12, 03:48 PM
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:00:29 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>>>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that
>>>>> the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended
>>>>> (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals
>>>>> and men.
>>>>
>>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
>>>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
>>>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
>>>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
>>>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
>>>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
>>>> you'll find flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake
>>>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
>>>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>>>
>>> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
>>> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
>>> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
>>> not doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
>>> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. It
>>> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they
>>> willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>>>
>>> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>>> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and
>>> neutered, which he did.
>>>
>>> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>>
>>
>> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
>> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
>> can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
>> PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
>> their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.
>
>I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got them, and
>living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them down than imprison
>them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as Patrick Henry believed: Give
>me liberty or give me death! As I said here once before: Only a stupid
>liberal thinks length of life is more important than quality of life.

Both count. Liberty is important but so is food and a nice place to
sleep.

Higgs Boson
September 11th 12, 12:46 AM
On Sep 9, 11:00*pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> dgk wrote:
> > On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> > > wrote:
>
> >> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
> ...
> >>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>
> >>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
> >>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
> >>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
> >>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
> >>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that
> >>>> the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended
> >>>> (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals
> >>>> and men.
>
> >>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
> >>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
> >>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
> >>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
> >>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
> >>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
> >>> you'll find flattened in the road. *I've met lots of fake
> >>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
> >>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>
> >> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
> >> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
> >> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
> >> not doing it. *They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
> >> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. *It
> >> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. *And they
> >> willingly came in to sleep. *I did feed them.
>
> >> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
> >> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and
> >> neutered, which he did.
>
> >> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>
> > Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
> > than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
> > can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
> > PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
> > their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.
>
> I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got them, and
> living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them down than imprison
> them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as Patrick Henry believed: Give
> me liberty or give me death! As I said here once before: Only a stupid
> liberal thinks length of life is more important than quality of life.

What gave you that idea?

HB

dgk
September 11th 12, 02:44 PM
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:46:00 -0700 (PDT), Higgs Boson
> wrote:

>On Sep 9, 11:00*pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>> > On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> >> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>
>> >>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>> >>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>> >>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>> >>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with me.
>> >>>> Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact that
>> >>>> the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery ended
>> >>>> (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for animals
>> >>>> and men.
>>
>> >>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
>> >>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
>> >>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
>> >>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
>> >>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
>> >>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
>> >>> you'll find flattened in the road. *I've met lots of fake
>> >>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
>> >>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>>
>> >> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
>> >> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
>> >> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
>> >> not doing it. *They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
>> >> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. *It
>> >> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. *And they
>> >> willingly came in to sleep. *I did feed them.
>>
>> >> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>> >> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and
>> >> neutered, which he did.
>>
>> >> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>
>> > Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
>> > than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
>> > can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
>> > PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
>> > their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.
>>
>> I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got them, and
>> living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them down than imprison
>> them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as Patrick Henry believed: Give
>> me liberty or give me death! As I said here once before: Only a stupid
>> liberal thinks length of life is more important than quality of life.
>
>What gave you that idea?
>
>HB

Three of my four cats want a comfy place to lie, nice food to eat,
toys and a slave to play with, and a warmer comfy place to lie. The
other one wants the same thing but likes to go outside once in a
while.

Bill Graham
September 11th 12, 08:24 PM
dgk wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:00:29 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>>>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>>>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>>>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with
>>>>>> me. Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact
>>>>>> that the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery
>>>>>> ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for
>>>>>> animals and men.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
>>>>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
>>>>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
>>>>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
>>>>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
>>>>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
>>>>> you'll find flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake
>>>>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
>>>>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
>>>> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
>>>> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
>>>> not doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
>>>> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house.
>>>> It was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they
>>>> willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>>>>
>>>> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>>>> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed
>>>> and neutered, which he did.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
>>> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the
>>> cat can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the
>>> cat. PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather
>>> than live their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable
>>> arugment.
>>
>> I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got
>> them, and living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them
>> down than imprison them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as
>> Patrick Henry believed: Give me liberty or give me death! As I said
>> here once before: Only a stupid liberal thinks length of life is
>> more important than quality of life.
>
> Both count. Liberty is important but so is food and a nice place to
> sleep.
Absolutely! And my cats hase both. but it is a dangerous world, and there
are many hazards for outsice cats. Life itself is hazardous, however, and
you can't get out of it alive. As the gambler once said, "You can't win, you
can't break even, and you can't even get out of the game." So, in my humble
opinion, you might as well enjoy yourself while you are ahead, and play
every hand like it was your last.....

Bill Graham
September 11th 12, 08:28 PM
Higgs Boson wrote:
> On Sep 9, 11:00 pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
>>>>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
>>>>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
>>>>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with
>>>>>> me. Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact
>>>>>> that the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery
>>>>>> ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for
>>>>>> animals and men.
>>
>>>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
>>>>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
>>>>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
>>>>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
>>>>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
>>>>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
>>>>> you'll find flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake
>>>>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
>>>>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>>
>>>> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
>>>> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
>>>> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
>>>> not doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
>>>> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. It
>>>> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they
>>>> willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>>
>>>> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
>>>> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed
>>>> and neutered, which he did.
>>
>>>> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>>
>>> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
>>> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the
>>> cat can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the
>>> cat. PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather
>>> than live their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable
>>> arugment.
>>
>> I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got
>> them, and living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them
>> down than imprison them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as
>> Patrick Henry believed: Give me liberty or give me death! As I said
>> here once before: Only a stupid liberal thinks length of life is
>> more important than quality of life.
>
> What gave you that idea?
>
> HB

The hundreds of them that I had to live and work with in California for over
40 years..... They would do anything to promote my "good health", whether I
wanted it or not. An example? Putting their kids tooth medicine in my
drinking water. And, believe me, there are many more.....

Higgs Boson
September 12th 12, 04:51 AM
On Sep 11, 12:28*pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> Higgs Boson wrote:
> > On Sep 9, 11:00 pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> >> dgk wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:06:31 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>>> "Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>> "Bill Graham" wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and
> >>>>>> feed them and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in
> >>>>>> the Winter time. What I don't do is imprison them. They were free
> >>>>>> when they came to me, and they remain free while they are with
> >>>>>> me. Part of the reason they choose to stay with me is the fact
> >>>>>> that the door is always open. Both for me and for them. Slavery
> >>>>>> ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both for
> >>>>>> animals and men.
>
> >>>>> Tell the truth, **** for brains... you're another of those lazy
> >>>>> cheap *******s who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and
> >>>>> pay for it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the
> >>>>> cheapest crap food you can find because this isn't the first time
> >>>>> you made believe you are caring for an animal because you know
> >>>>> there's no reason to make any investment in yet another cat that
> >>>>> you'll find flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake
> >>>>> do-gooders like you... I don't believe a word you said, you don't
> >>>>> feed any cat, you're just trolling.
>
> >>>> I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't
> >>>> have them. I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway.
> >>>> I had a feed store say that they would take them but they wound up
> >>>> not doing it. They loaned me a big kennel for them and I could at
> >>>> least let them sleep in that on the freezing nights in my house. It
> >>>> was the only thing that kept them safe from Maui. And they
> >>>> willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.
>
> >>>> Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a
> >>>> shelter that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed
> >>>> and neutered, which he did.
>
> >>>> Hopefully they went to a good home.
>
> >>> Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
> >>> than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the
> >>> cat can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the
> >>> cat. PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather
> >>> than live their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable
> >>> arugment.
>
> >> I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got
> >> them, and living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them
> >> down than imprison them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as
> >> Patrick Henry believed: Give me liberty or give me death! As I said
> >> here once before: Only a stupid liberal thinks length of life is
> >> more important than quality of life.
>
> > What gave you that idea?
>
> > HB
>
> The hundreds of them that I had to live and work with in California for over
> 40 years..... They would do anything to promote my "good health", whether I
> wanted it or not. An example? Putting their kids tooth medicine in my
> drinking water. And, believe me, there are many more.....

Hic jacet lapin! Fluoridation. Betcha the other examples are on the
same level...

Brings back fond memories of a film I must have seen a dozen times,
and it gets better each time: DR. STANGELOVE. Perhaps the late Peter
Sellers' greatest performance... Screenplay by Stanley Kubrick,
Terry Southern, and Peter George.

Remember that marvelous scene where General Jack D. Ripper... well,
read this excerpt from:

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/4/1/4/5/9/pages414592/p414592-21.php

" Black comedy focuses on topics that are typically treated very
seriously, including death and war. The classic film Dr. Strangelove
or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964), which
concerned the "doomsday" prospect of thermonuclear war during the
cold war, perfectly exemplifies the genre of black comedy and
highlights its ability to offer a viable alternative narrative form.
In the film, a crazed Air Force General even his name was
satirical, Jack. D. Ripper comically (not tragically!) initiates a
nuclear attack because of his belief that a communist conspiracy
explained the fluoridation of the nation's water supply. Ripper
claimed that such efforts would "sap and impurify all of our precious
bodily fluids." 40 The film ridicules 40 See Dr. Strangelove: A
Continuity Transcript." Available at http://www.visual- memory.co.uk/
amk/doc/0055.html."

HB

Bill Graham
September 16th 12, 01:16 AM
Higgs Boson wrote:
>
> Hic jacet lapin! Fluoridation. Betcha the other examples are on the
> same level...


Yes. - The unconstitutional level. Like taking $4000 of my tax money and
giving it to that welfare bum down the block with rusty cars all over his
front lawn so he could buy himself a new car, while I pedeled a bicycle to
work for ten years.... You better vote early next November, cause when I
vote, I will be so mad I will tear the lever off the machine.....

Higgs Boson
September 17th 12, 04:54 AM
On Sep 15, 5:16*pm, "Bill Graham" > wrote:
> Higgs Boson wrote:
>
> > Hic jacet lapin! *Fluoridation. *Betcha the other examples are on the
> > same level...
>
> Yes. - The unconstitutional level. Like taking $4000 of my tax money and
> giving it to that welfare bum down the block with rusty cars all over his
> front lawn so he could buy himself a new car, while I pedeled a bicycle to
> work for ten years.... You better vote early next November, cause when I
> vote, I will be so mad I will tear the lever off the machine.....

I AM voting early Thought I would be out of the country, so ordered
an ballot that's supposed to arrive early Oct.

If you tear off the lever, your vote might not count, and you would
probably be arrested.

Hmm....OK, go ahead...

HB

Bob F
October 27th 12, 05:35 PM
dgk wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.

Bill Graham
October 28th 12, 01:40 AM
Bob F wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>
>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>
>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>
>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>>
>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.

Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If you grow
veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are naturally wild
animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping them inside is like
keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive, but what is their quality of
life? For me, quality beats quantity in almost evry case.

David E. Ross
October 29th 12, 04:54 AM
On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> Bob F wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>
>>>
>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>
> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If you grow
> veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are naturally wild
> animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping them inside is like
> keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive, but what is their quality of
> life? For me, quality beats quantity in almost evry case.
>

The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by a
cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily dug.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
<http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html>
Gardening diary at <http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary>

Billy[_3_]
October 29th 12, 06:20 AM
In article >,
"David E. Ross" > wrote:

> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> > Bob F wrote:
> >> dgk wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Gas Bag wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> >>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> >>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
> >>
> >> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
> >
> > Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If you grow
> > veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are naturally wild
> > animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping them inside is like
> > keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive, but what is their quality of
> > life? For me, quality beats quantity in almost evry case.
> >
>
> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by a
> cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily dug.

Forget cats, I have raccoons, and put down chicken wire to discourage
them.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

Moe DeLoughan
October 29th 12, 07:01 PM
On 10/27/2012 11:35 AM, Bob F wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>
>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>
>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>
>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>
>>
>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.

Responsible cat owners who want their pets to experience the outdoors
have a number of options that will permit cats to safely do so, and
without posing a nuisance to neighbors. Permanent solutions: fence
their yard or build a catio. Temporary solutions are Kittywalks and
pet pup tents. Both are made of heavy mesh, fold for storage, and are
appropriate for use under direct supervision. They won't protect a cat
from a predator, so the owner should only use them when s/he is at
home and able to keep an eye on the cat(s).

Bill Graham
October 30th 12, 09:33 PM
David E. Ross wrote:
> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>> Bob F wrote:
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>
>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>
>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are
>> naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping
>> them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive,
>> but what is their quality of life? For me, quality beats quantity in
>> almost evry case.
>>
>
> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by
> a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily
> dug.

Well, there you are. In my case, I see millions of pitiful little (furry and
otherwise) creatures freezing and starving ivery Winter, and forced to watch
their children freeze and starve before them) All done by a pitiless and
uncaring God who created this miserable mess and yet is, "worshipped" (in
abject fear) by billions of stupid folk. So, in my own small way, I try to
do what I can to help at least the few that I find in my limited area. I
could care less how they treat my potted plants. So, to each his own. I am
truely sorry for your plants, and I understand your position completely. Its
a pity that you can't understand mine.

Bill Graham
October 30th 12, 09:41 PM
Rick wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
> > wrote:
>
>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>
>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>
>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them
>>> alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality beats
>>> quantity in almost evry case.
>>>
>>
>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>> easily dug.
>
> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral cats
> has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one of the
> tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer months and I
> suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to migrate. I hope
> they all succumb this year so I don't have to try and deal with it.

The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any house cat.
Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another house cat to
accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and don't, "team up" I
also will take this opportunity to suggest that anyone who grows anything
outside has to worry about bird poop as well as a myriad of other harmful
insects and animals, and shouled wash all his veggies thouroughly before
eating them. It doesn't matter whether he is washing off cat or bird poop,
as long as he washes it off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before
eating it.

Bill Graham
October 30th 12, 09:44 PM
Moe DeLoughan wrote:
> On 10/27/2012 11:35 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>
>>>
>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>
>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>
> Responsible cat owners who want their pets to experience the outdoors
> have a number of options that will permit cats to safely do so, and
> without posing a nuisance to neighbors. Permanent solutions: fence
> their yard or build a catio. Temporary solutions are Kittywalks and
> pet pup tents. Both are made of heavy mesh, fold for storage, and are
> appropriate for use under direct supervision. They won't protect a cat
> from a predator, so the owner should only use them when s/he is at
> home and able to keep an eye on the cat(s).

When you get to your heaven, find a black cat named, "B-K" and ask him if he
would rather have lived twice as long in a cage.....

David E. Ross
October 30th 12, 11:11 PM
On 10/30/12 1:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>>
>>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them
>>>> alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality beats
>>>> quantity in almost evry case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>>> easily dug.
>>
>> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral cats
>> has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one of the
>> tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer months and I
>> suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to migrate. I hope
>> they all succumb this year so I don't have to try and deal with it.
>
> The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any house cat.
> Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another house cat to
> accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and don't, "team up" I
> also will take this opportunity to suggest that anyone who grows anything
> outside has to worry about bird poop as well as a myriad of other harmful
> insects and animals, and shouled wash all his veggies thouroughly before
> eating them. It doesn't matter whether he is washing off cat or bird poop,
> as long as he washes it off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before
> eating it.
>

The problem is NOT the poop. The problem is that cats dig toilets for
their poop. The digging destroys parts of my garden.

Birds do not dig toilets.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
<http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html>
Gardening diary at <http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary>

Bill Graham
October 31st 12, 04:01 AM
David E. Ross wrote:
> On 10/30/12 1:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps
>>>>> them alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality
>>>>> beats quantity in almost evry case.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>>>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>>>> easily dug.
>>>
>>> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral
>>> cats has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one
>>> of the tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer
>>> months and I suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to
>>> migrate. I hope they all succumb this year so I don't have to try
>>> and deal with it.
>>
>> The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any
>> house cat. Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another
>> house cat to accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and
>> don't, "team up" I also will take this opportunity to suggest that
>> anyone who grows anything outside has to worry about bird poop as
>> well as a myriad of other harmful insects and animals, and shouled
>> wash all his veggies thouroughly before eating them. It doesn't
>> matter whether he is washing off cat or bird poop, as long as he
>> washes it off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before eating it.
>>
>
> The problem is NOT the poop. The problem is that cats dig toilets for
> their poop. The digging destroys parts of my garden.
>
> Birds do not dig toilets.

But this is one of the nicest things about cats... The facy yhat they bury
their droppings. Dogs don't do this. In fact, very few other animals do
this. And, it constitutes great fertilizer for the plants, too. The repair
process is minimal. It would only take a few minutes a day to clean up after
a half dozen cats. Most of our cats,use the cat box we keep inside the
house, even though they have access to the outside 24/7. Even the former
feral cat hardly ever goes outside. Have you tried putting a cat box near
your plants? I bet whichever cat is "destroying" your plants would love to
use it....

chaniarts[_2_]
October 31st 12, 06:52 PM
On 10/30/2012 1:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>>
>>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them
>>>> alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality beats
>>>> quantity in almost evry case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>>> easily dug.
>>
>> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral cats
>> has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one of the
>> tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer months and I
>> suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to migrate. I hope
>> they all succumb this year so I don't have to try and deal with it.
>
> The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any house
> cat. Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another house cat
> to accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and don't, "team
> up" I also will take this opportunity to suggest that anyone who grows
> anything outside has to worry about bird poop as well as a myriad of
> other harmful insects and animals, and shouled wash all his veggies
> thouroughly before eating them. It doesn't matter whether he is washing
> off cat or bird poop, as long as he washes it off, and ( preferably)
> cooks everything before eating it.

lion prides in the wild cooperate in hunting all the time.

Bill Graham
November 1st 12, 01:00 AM
chaniarts wrote:
> On 10/30/2012 1:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps
>>>>> them alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality
>>>>> beats quantity in almost evry case.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>>>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>>>> easily dug.
>>>
>>> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral
>>> cats has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one
>>> of the tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer
>>> months and I suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to
>>> migrate. I hope they all succumb this year so I don't have to try
>>> and deal with it.
>>
>> The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any house
>> cat. Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another house
>> cat to accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and don't,
>> "team up" I also will take this opportunity to suggest that anyone
>> who grows anything outside has to worry about bird poop as well as a
>> myriad of other harmful insects and animals, and shouled wash all
>> his veggies thouroughly before eating them. It doesn't matter
>> whether he is washing off cat or bird poop, as long as he washes it
>> off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before eating it.
>
> lion prides in the wild cooperate in hunting all the time.

Yes. They are one of the exceptions. Cheetas also will team up with their
brothers, sometimes for life. but house cats seldom team up for anything.
Although sometimes I will catch two of mine chasing a strange cat away from
our property, and they occasionally will tear into an unopened bag of dry
food on my kitchen floor... Usually, however, one will do all the work, and
the others will just watch and wait until they can take their share of the
booty.....

Bill Graham
November 1st 12, 01:09 AM
Rick wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:41:59 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Rick wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:54:21 -0700, "David E. Ross"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in
>>>>>>>>> her suburb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>>>>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats
>>>>> are naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free".
>>>>> Keeping them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps
>>>>> them alive, but what is their quality of life? For me, quality
>>>>> beats quantity in almost evry case.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up
>>>> by a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and
>>>> easily dug.
>>>
>>> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral
>>> cats has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one
>>> of the tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer
>>> months and I suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to
>>> migrate. I hope they all succumb this year so I don't have to try
>>> and deal with it.
>>
>> The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any
>> house cat. Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another
>> house cat to accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and
>> don't, "team up" I also will take this opportunity to suggest that
>> anyone who grows anything outside has to worry about bird poop as
>> well as a myriad of other harmful insects and animals, and shouled
>> wash all his veggies thouroughly before eating them. It doesn't
>> matter whether he is washing off cat or bird poop, as long as he
>> washes it off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before eating it.
>
> I hope I'm not out of line here and that you've had the talk with your
> dad- All big turkeys come from little turkeys and little turkeys come
> from eggs that are laid in nests on the ground. The added pedators
> seem to have overwhelmed the local turkeys. The adults are fine. I
> have barn cats that do good work for me, but they can't breed and
> don't hang out in the woods killing anything that moves for the fun of
> it; which is the nature of domestic cats.

I had one that didn't kill his toys... He just brought them in the house and
let them go, so he could play with them. We had a chipmonk living in our
kitchen, under the stove, for about two months last Winter. My wife left
squirrel food out for it and water... I thought it was going to be a
permanent pet, but as soon as Spring rolled around, I left the sliding glass
door open a few inches and it escaped back outside. I don't know how my cat
caught it to begin with. Chipmonks are as fast as anything I have ever seen.
This one would run across the kitchen floor so fast you couldn't see it even
if you were looking at it.....

Bob F
March 23rd 13, 03:52 PM
dgk wrote:
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

And your neighbors just love yout cat's poop in their spinach.

Billy[_3_]
March 24th 13, 07:19 PM
In article >, "Bob F" >
wrote:

> dgk wrote:
> > For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> > offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> > eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> > have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> > still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.
>
> And your neighbors just love yout cat's poop in their spinach.

And bird poop, raccoon poop, mouse poop, and dog poop doesn't bother
you? Just be sure to wash your spinach, and other raw vegetables in your
meal, well. To be completely safe, be sure to serve a young red wine
with your meal.

Now researchers have found that red wine acts as an antibiotic in the
body, killing potentially fatal bacteria.
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-205464/Red-wine-better-us.html
>

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party

dgk
March 25th 13, 03:27 PM
On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 07:52:07 -0700, "Bob F" >
wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
>> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
>> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
>> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
>> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.
>
>And your neighbors just love yout cat's poop in their spinach.
>
Six month old message. Still, you should be able to read those
important words "fenced in". That means that my cats stay in my yard.

Oddly since that post was written, one cat, my favorite, died in the
yard. I heard a weird noice, looked up at the window, heard it again,
fainter, and I went to check. I found Espy under the deck, dead. Vet
said heart attack. At least he got to die in the yard that he loved so
much. And no spinach was hurt in the incident. I do grow tomatoes and
string beans back there and it's the bird poop I'm concerned with.

Billy[_3_]
March 25th 13, 04:43 PM
In article >,
dgk > wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 07:52:07 -0700, "Bob F" >
> wrote:
>
> >dgk wrote:
> >> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> >> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> >> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> >> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> >> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.
> >
> >And your neighbors just love yout cat's poop in their spinach.
> >
> Six month old message. Still, you should be able to read those
> important words "fenced in". That means that my cats stay in my yard.
>
> Oddly since that post was written, one cat, my favorite, died in the
> yard. I heard a weird noice, looked up at the window, heard it again,
> fainter, and I went to check. I found Espy under the deck, dead. Vet
> said heart attack. At least he got to die in the yard that he loved so
> much. And no spinach was hurt in the incident. I do grow tomatoes and
> string beans back there and it's the bird poop I'm concerned with.

It's always something, isn't it? The up side to bird poop is that it is
rich in phosphates, and definitely good for your garden.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party