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The Doctor
October 13th 12, 11:27 PM
First time owning a cat of our own.

I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from errands,
I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!

He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either block
or crescent.

He is due at the vet this Monday.

What needs to be done?
--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

Mack A. Damia
October 14th 12, 12:15 AM
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

>First time owning a cat of our own.
>
>I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from errands,
>I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>
>He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either block
>or crescent.
>
>He is due at the vet this Monday.
>
>What needs to be done?

Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
"cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
you'll keep it strictly indoors.

--

The Doctor
October 14th 12, 12:38 AM
In article >,
Mack A. Damia > wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>(The Doctor) wrote:
>
>>First time owning a cat of our own.
>>
>>I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from errands,
>>I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>
>>He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either block
>>or crescent.
>>
>>He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>
>>What needs to be done?
>
>Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>"cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>
>--
>
>

Depends. I want to limit our cat to our yard and no further.

The cat that use to frequent was a neighbour's cat
from houses 2 down.


Our little guy was born on the crescent. He was the colony guard.
Still I prefer if he stayed inddors.

That is his sentence until he goes ot the vet on Monday.
--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

Bill Graham
October 14th 12, 03:34 AM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
> (The Doctor) wrote:
>
>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>
>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from errands,
>> I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>
>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>> block or crescent.
>>
>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>
>> What needs to be done?
>
> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
> you'll keep it strictly indoors.

With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more important than
a long one... This applies to people also, come to think of it.....

Bill Graham
October 14th 12, 03:38 AM
The Doctor wrote:
> In article >,
> Mack A. Damia > wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>
>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>
>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>
>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>> block or crescent.
>>>
>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>
>>> What needs to be done?
>>
>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>
> Depends. I want to limit our cat to our yard and no further.
>
> The cat that use to frequent was a neighbour's cat
> from houses 2 down.
>
>
> Our little guy was born on the crescent. He was the colony guard.
> Still I prefer if he stayed inddors.
>
> That is his sentence until he goes ot the vet on Monday.

We have five. They are free to come and go at any time through two cat
doors. but they seldom leave the property. Sunning themselves on our deck is
about as far away as most of them get. One came from across the street, and
she goes back there to visit occasionally. She also waits by the mailbox to
say, "hello" to her neighborhood friends when they come to get the mail.....

Mack A. Damia
October 14th 12, 03:57 AM
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>
>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>
>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from errands,
>>> I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>
>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>> block or crescent.
>>>
>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>
>>> What needs to be done?
>>
>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>
>With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more important than
>a long one... This applies to people also, come to think of it.....

I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.

My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
a..........cat.

--

Bill Graham
October 14th 12, 06:48 PM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>
>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>
>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>
>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>
>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>
>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>
>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>
>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>> think of it.....
>
> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>
> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
> a..........cat.

Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI would
hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they were free when
they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of their food and drink. My
five cats choose to sleep in my house. They are free to leave at almost any
time. (I do trap them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
available for shots and inspection)

Mack A. Damia
October 14th 12, 07:23 PM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>
>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>
>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>
>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>
>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>>>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>>>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>
>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>> think of it.....
>>
>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>
>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>> a..........cat.
>
>Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI would
>hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they were free when
>they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of their food and drink. My
>five cats choose to sleep in my house. They are free to leave at almost any
>time. (I do trap them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
>available for shots and inspection)

My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For one
thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy dispatching
them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy torturing them.

A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my home
at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony. I'd be
awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes. The
neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.

It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat -
and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to protect my
property.

I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.

--

Gandalf[_2_]
October 14th 12, 08:31 PM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>
>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>
>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>
>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>
>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>>>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>>>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>
>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>> think of it.....
>>
>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>
>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>> a..........cat.
>
>Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI would
>hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they were free when
>they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of their food and drink. My
>five cats choose to sleep in my house. They are free to leave at almost any
>time. (I do trap them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
>available for shots and inspection)

It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with pellet
rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange, roundworms,
hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes, predation by fox,
coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm
sure the list goes on; this is just what I quickly thought of.

Bill Graham
October 14th 12, 09:59 PM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>
>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>
>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>> think of it.....
>>>
>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>>
>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>> a..........cat.
>>
>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house. They
>> are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just before
>> the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for shots and
>> inspection)
>
> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For one
> thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy dispatching
> them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy torturing them.
>
> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my home
> at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony. I'd be
> awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes. The
> neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>
> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat -
> and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to protect my
> property.
>
> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.

My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all of my
life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from the same
thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am making is that you
shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone else. You are perfectly
free to operate accorkinjg to your own personal experience, and I wouldn't
presume to tell you that. "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up
inside his house is practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many
others like you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets
his cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals.
If you want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of animals
every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question you were you to
bitch about Him....:^)

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 12:34 AM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:59:53 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>
>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>
>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>>>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>>>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>>>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>>>
>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>>>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>> a..........cat.
>>>
>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house. They
>>> are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just before
>>> the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for shots and
>>> inspection)
>>
>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For one
>> thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy dispatching
>> them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy torturing them.
>>
>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my home
>> at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony. I'd be
>> awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes. The
>> neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>
>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat -
>> and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to protect my
>> property.
>>
>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.
>
>My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all of my
>life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from the same
>thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am making is that you
>shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone else. You are perfectly
>free to operate accorkinjg to your own personal experience, and I wouldn't
>presume to tell you that. "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up
>inside his house is practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many
>others like you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets
>his cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals.
> If you want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
>He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of animals
>every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question you were you to
>bitch about Him....:^)

I can't force you to keep yout cat indoors, but the police can if your
cat destroys my property- unless you want to get rid of it. I can
also do whatever I need to if your cat trespasses onto my property.
Having said that, I am a cat lover, but there are plenty of cat haters
in the world.

Look at the millions of people God starves everyday.

"Every night and every morn
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night."
- William Blake


--

(PeteCresswell)
October 15th 12, 02:05 AM
Per Gandalf <ingold1234(at)yahoo(dot)com>:
>It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
>than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors

Raul Wallenberg probably lived a very long time underground in
Lubianka Prison.

But longevity isn't everything.

Whether or not a cat is capable of perceiving the diff is another
question....
--
Pete Cresswell

The Doctor
October 15th 12, 02:47 AM
On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>
>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to roam
>>>>> "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long life,
>>>>> you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>
>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>> think of it.....
>>>
>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>>
>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>> a..........cat.
>>
>>Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI would
>>hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they were free when
>>they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of their food and drink. My
>>five cats choose to sleep in my house. They are free to leave at almost any
>>time. (I do trap them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
>>available for shots and inspection)
>
> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
> than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
> access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with pellet
> rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange, roundworms,
> hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes, predation by fox,
> coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm
> sure the list goes on; this is just what I quickly thought of.

I think it is harness time for our cat.

--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

The Doctor
October 15th 12, 02:49 AM
On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham > wrote:
> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>
>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>
>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in the
>>>> wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference. "Freedom"
>>>> is a relative human construct. For instance, many ex-convicts will
>>>> re-commit in order to return to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>>>
>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an atrium
>>>> where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>> a..........cat.
>>>
>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house. They
>>> are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just before
>>> the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for shots and
>>> inspection)
>>
>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For one
>> thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy dispatching
>> them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy torturing them.
>>
>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my home
>> at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony. I'd be
>> awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes. The
>> neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>
>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat -
>> and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to protect my
>> property.
>>
>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.
>
> My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all of my
> life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from the same
> thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am making is that you
> shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone else. You are perfectly
> free to operate accorkinjg to your own personal experience, and I wouldn't
> presume to tell you that. "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up
> inside his house is practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many
> others like you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets
> his cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals.
> If you want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
> He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of animals
> every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question you were you to
> bitch about Him....:^)
>

What prompted this thread was that I was mad to find our cat outside
his boundaries. He was on the other side if the block and
was not supposed to be there.

He has been with us for 13 months now but for his 1st 4 months
months of his life he was the colony guard.

We took him in as his colony dispersed. I still want him
a little wild but not to wild.


--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:05 AM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:59:53 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>
>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>
>>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
>>> one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
>>> dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
>>> torturing them.
>>>
>>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
>>> home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
>>> I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes.
>>> The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>>
>>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat
>>> - and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
>>> protect my property.
>>>
>>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.
>>
>> My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
>> of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from
>> the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am
>> making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone
>> else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to your own
>> personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you that.
>> "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his house is
>> practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many others like
>> you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets his
>> cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals. If you
>> want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
>> He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
>> animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question
>> you were you to bitch about Him....:^)
>
> I can't force you to keep yout cat indoors, but the police can if your
> cat destroys my property- unless you want to get rid of it. I can
> also do whatever I need to if your cat trespasses onto my property.
> Having said that, I am a cat lover, but there are plenty of cat haters
> in the world.
>
> Look at the millions of people God starves everyday.
>
> "Every night and every morn
> Some to misery are born.
> Every morn and every night
> Some are born to sweet delight.
> Some are born to sweet delight,
> Some are born to endless night."
> - William Blake

I find it hard to believe that any cat can, "Destroy property". We are
talking about pet kitty's here, and not lions. None of my neighbors, (many
of whom have their own cats) have ever told me that they had any problems
with any of my cats. I*n fact. I had one that loved to sneak into their
houses whenever he found one of their windows open four inches or more. He
would turn up at dinnertime waiting for a handout.... Even the neighbor who
was allergic to cats loved him....
I am sorry thsat you have such neighbors, that value some flowers more than
a friendly cat.

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:12 AM
(PeteCresswell) wrote:

> But longevity isn't everything.

Exactly my point. Some would trade anything for a few more days of life. I
can not speak for my cats, but I know that there are many things more
important, so I have little choice but to impress my philosophy on my cats.
They were, "Born free", as it were, and they continue to live free under my
care. In fact, if I had to keep my cats inside, I wouldn't own any of tthem.
(except perhaps Junie, who is old and blind, and never goes outside any more
anyway)

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 05:15 AM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:59:53 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>
>>>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
>>>> one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
>>>> dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
>>>> torturing them.
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
>>>> home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
>>>> I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes.
>>>> The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>>>
>>>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat
>>>> - and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
>>>> protect my property.
>>>>
>>>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.
>>>
>>> My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
>>> of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from
>>> the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am
>>> making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone
>>> else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to your own
>>> personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you that.
>>> "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his house is
>>> practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many others like
>>> you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets his
>>> cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals. If you
>>> want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
>>> He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
>>> animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question
>>> you were you to bitch about Him....:^)
>>
>> I can't force you to keep yout cat indoors, but the police can if your
>> cat destroys my property- unless you want to get rid of it. I can
>> also do whatever I need to if your cat trespasses onto my property.
>> Having said that, I am a cat lover, but there are plenty of cat haters
>> in the world.
>>
>> Look at the millions of people God starves everyday.
>>
>> "Every night and every morn
>> Some to misery are born.
>> Every morn and every night
>> Some are born to sweet delight.
>> Some are born to sweet delight,
>> Some are born to endless night."
>> - William Blake
>
>I find it hard to believe that any cat can, "Destroy property". We are
>talking about pet kitty's here, and not lions. None of my neighbors, (many
>of whom have their own cats) have ever told me that they had any problems
>with any of my cats. I*n fact. I had one that loved to sneak into their
>houses whenever he found one of their windows open four inches or more. He
>would turn up at dinnertime waiting for a handout.... Even the neighbor who
>was allergic to cats loved him....
>I am sorry thsat you have such neighbors, that value some flowers more than
>a friendly cat.

I already told you what the cat did. I have potted plants on my
balcony. The balcony in one story above the ground. There are steps
leading to the balcony. The cat would go up the steps and push the
plants off the ledge onto the path below. The cat did this about a
half-dozen times, and I saw it running away on a couple of occasions.
No doubt what happened.

I told the neighbor about it several times, then finally I called the
police who came out to the house and told the neighbor she would have
to keep her cat on her own property or suffer the consequences.

--

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:16 AM
The Doctor wrote:
> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>
>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>
>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>
>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>> a..........cat.
>>>
>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>> shots and inspection)
>>
>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
>> than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
>> access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
>> pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
>> roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
>> predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
>> cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
>> quickly thought of.
>
> I think it is harness time for our cat.

I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 05:18 AM
P.S. The cat was a bitch like her owner. The plant pot problem
stopped after the police came.

--

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 05:20 AM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>The Doctor wrote:
>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>
>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>
>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
>>> than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
>>> access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
>>> pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
>>> roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
>>> predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
>>> cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
>>> quickly thought of.
>>
>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>
>I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
>have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
>high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".

Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
roam.

--

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:25 AM
The Doctor wrote:
> On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham > wrote:
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>
>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>
>>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
>>> one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
>>> dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
>>> torturing them.
>>>
>>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
>>> home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
>>> I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding crashes.
>>> The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>>
>>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her cat
>>> - and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
>>> protect my property.
>>>
>>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it roam.
>>
>> My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
>> of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago from
>> the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point I am
>> making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on everyone
>> else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to your own
>> personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you that.
>> "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his house is
>> practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many others like
>> you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone who lets his
>> cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his animals. If you
>> want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of this universe.
>> He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
>> animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not question
>> you were you to bitch about Him....:^)
>>
>
> What prompted this thread was that I was mad to find our cat outside
> his boundaries. He was on the other side if the block and
> was not supposed to be there.
>
> He has been with us for 13 months now but for his 1st 4 months
> months of his life he was the colony guard.
>
> We took him in as his colony dispersed. I still want him
> a little wild but not to wild.

I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular rounds,
which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After he died,one of
his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to my house and looked all
over for his friend. Then he lay down on the mat where my beloved B-K died
for about ten minutes, and then got up and went home. Had I imprisoned my
cat, he would have never known him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had
I kept him trapped in the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you
would know why I could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and animals.

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:40 AM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:59:53 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free
>>>>>>> as a..........cat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience with allowing cats to roam has been unpleasant. For
>>>>> one thing, there are a lot of "cat-haters" out there who enjoy
>>>>> dispatching them to the hereafter; also, weirdos who enjoy
>>>>> torturing them.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few years ago, my neighbor let her cat roam, and it came to my
>>>>> home at night-time and started knocking plants off the balcony.
>>>>> I'd be awakened in the middle of the night with resounding
>>>>> crashes. The neighbor got stubborn about my complaints.
>>>>>
>>>>> It took the police to tell her that she was responsible for her
>>>>> cat - and that I was free to do anything I wanted to in order to
>>>>> protect my property.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still say that if you truly love your cat, you won't let it
>>>>> roam.
>>>>
>>>> My experience has been different from yours. I have owned cats all
>>>> of my life, and only lost one. I also lost a dog many years ago
>>>> from the same thing, and he was not allowed to roam. So, the point
>>>> I am making is that you shouldn't impress your own experience on
>>>> everyone else. You are perfectly free to operate accorkinjg to
>>>> your own personal experience, and I wouldn't presume to tell you
>>>> that. "Anyone who forces his cats to live cooped up inside his
>>>> house is practicing cruelty toward animals". But you (aqnd many
>>>> others like you) are quick to tell me that you believe that anyone
>>>> who lets his cats roam free is practicing cruelty toward his
>>>> animals. If you want cruelty to animals, look to the great God of
>>>> this universe.
>>>> He has forced the freezing and starvation of literally millions of
>>>> animals every Winter for millions of years now. I would not
>>>> question you were you to bitch about Him....:^)
>>>
>>> I can't force you to keep yout cat indoors, but the police can if
>>> your cat destroys my property- unless you want to get rid of it. I
>>> can also do whatever I need to if your cat trespasses onto my
>>> property. Having said that, I am a cat lover, but there are plenty
>>> of cat haters in the world.
>>>
>>> Look at the millions of people God starves everyday.
>>>
>>> "Every night and every morn
>>> Some to misery are born.
>>> Every morn and every night
>>> Some are born to sweet delight.
>>> Some are born to sweet delight,
>>> Some are born to endless night."
>>> - William Blake
>>
>> I find it hard to believe that any cat can, "Destroy property". We
>> are talking about pet kitty's here, and not lions. None of my
>> neighbors, (many of whom have their own cats) have ever told me that
>> they had any problems with any of my cats. I*n fact. I had one that
>> loved to sneak into their houses whenever he found one of their
>> windows open four inches or more. He would turn up at dinnertime
>> waiting for a handout.... Even the neighbor who was allergic to cats
>> loved him....
>> I am sorry thsat you have such neighbors, that value some flowers
>> more than a friendly cat.
>
> I already told you what the cat did. I have potted plants on my
> balcony. The balcony in one story above the ground. There are steps
> leading to the balcony. The cat would go up the steps and push the
> plants off the ledge onto the path below. The cat did this about a
> half-dozen times, and I saw it running away on a couple of occasions.
> No doubt what happened.
>
> I told the neighbor about it several times, then finally I called the
> police who came out to the house and told the neighbor she would have
> to keep her cat on her own property or suffer the consequences.

Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots down, or
fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from moving them. Cats
aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for human beings. If the pots
couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat would have left them alone. Here, you
can't force anyone to keep a cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live
in heavily congested cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do
would do this to a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it
pleases....

Bill Graham
October 15th 12, 05:46 AM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> The Doctor wrote:
>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>
>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>
>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>
>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
>> may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
>> "cruelty".
>
> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
> roam.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?

Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
first.

Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
the words to you.

The Doctor
October 15th 12, 03:39 PM
In article >,
Bill Graham > wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>
>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>
>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
>>> than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
>>> access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
>>> pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
>>> roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
>>> predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
>>> cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
>>> quickly thought of.
>>
>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>
>I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
>have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
>high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".
>

The reason why I said time for a harness is that those diseases
are a case of point well taken. Our cat should
get the privilege of the yard and no further.
If he wants to go beyond that then he has to be on a harness.
--
Member - Liberal International This is Ici
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012

dgk
October 15th 12, 06:09 PM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
....
>Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots down, or
>fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from moving them. Cats
>aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for human beings. If the pots
>couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat would have left them alone. Here, you
>can't force anyone to keep a cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live
>in heavily congested cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do
>would do this to a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it
>pleases....

My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
watching stuff go down and BANG.

Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
either of those, but she liked to poop there.

Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
poops and leaves it.

I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
concern that people have about free roaming cats.

At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
being unreasonable.

dgk
October 15th 12, 06:13 PM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>The Doctor wrote:
>> On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham > wrote:
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
---
>
>I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular rounds,
>which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After he died,one of
>his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to my house and looked all
>over for his friend. Then he lay down on the mat where my beloved B-K died
>for about ten minutes, and then got up and went home. Had I imprisoned my
>cat, he would have never known him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had
>I kept him trapped in the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you
>would know why I could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
>gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and animals.

One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
that's where he wanted to go.

Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
suffering.

dgk
October 15th 12, 06:22 PM
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>>
>>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
>>> may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
>>> "cruelty".
>>
>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
>> roam.
>
>Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
>he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
>forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?
>
>Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
>first.
>
>Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
>the words to you.

Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.

Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
my knowledge, been taken.

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 07:36 PM
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk > wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>wrote:
>
>>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>>>
>>>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>>>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
>>>> may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
>>>> "cruelty".
>>>
>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
>>> roam.
>>
>>Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
>>he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
>>forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?
>>
>>Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
>>first.
>>
>>Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
>>the words to you.
>
>Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
>that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
>concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
>think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
>everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.
>
>Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
>marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
>with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
>my knowledge, been taken.

What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
know.

I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.
--

dgk
October 15th 12, 08:01 PM
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:36:54 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>>>>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
>>>>> may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
>>>>> "cruelty".
>>>>
>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
>>>> roam.
>>>
>>>Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
>>>he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
>>>forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?
>>>
>>>Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
>>>first.
>>>
>>>Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
>>>the words to you.
>>
>>Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
>>that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
>>concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
>>think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
>>everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.
>>
>>Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
>>marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
>>with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
>>my knowledge, been taken.
>
>What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
>knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
>know.

I try not to buttonhole people into commie or fascist. Most of us want
to better the world and the people in it. We have different ideas how
to do it. I am about as far left as they come, but that doesn't mean
that I think that I'm right on every issue or cannot learn. As you
said, the more I know, the more I don't know.

The problem is that communism doesn't work because some people are too
needy, and capitalism doesn't work because some people are too greedy.
Something in the middle seems best.. No one wants to work hard and
give their money to people who just don't want to work. On the other
hand, I don't want to fund a military that exists to expand the power
of the 1% that really rules the country but pretends to be about
keeping us "safe".
>
>I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
>"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
>nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
>think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.

It depends on the situation. In the city, there are many ways a cat
can die a painful death but lots of cats live pretty long lives
outside. There is also a numbers game. I can take in three or four
cats, but the rest live outside because there is just no one willing
to take them in. So I can make a difference to one or two but we try
the best we can to take care of the outside kittys.

Right now I'm debating what to do about Baby. She was born in a box
outside my front door and has lived all her life in the street near my
house. She's the one who pooped in my neighbor's onion plants
mentioned in another post. Well, Espy died last month so theoretically
I have an opening for another cat. Baby is a delightful cat, friendly,
small, with a nice personality as far as I can tell.

She also is very good at living outside and seems to love it. She runs
around, right up trees, and kills a bird once in a while. She rolls in
the dirt. She lets me pet her and even pick her up.. I had her TNRd
years when she was 5 months old.

So do I take her in? Winter is coming but she made it through a few
already, partly because I built her a styrofoam home with a heated
interior.

She seems to love it outside. She runs up to block when she seems me
coming right onto my stoop to be fed. She runs into my driveway, under
the bushes, up the tree. Then I go inside and my cats are lying on the
couch. Just lying there. Or upstairs, on a perch by the windows
looking out. Just lying there.

So who has the better of the deal? My indoor cats, safe but not very
stimulated even though I play the laser game and all kinds of toys. Or
Baby, who pounces on real critters or climbs real trees or runs to
greet me or one of the other neighbors.

Yes, she has a decent chance of being run over by a car. It happens.
But I think she really liikes it outside. Will she like it inside?
Maybe. Her likely daddy is Scooter, who moved in with me. Sort of a
family reunion then.

My cats actually do get to go out in my backyard, which I have fenced
in so they stay pretty safe. Still, I have to decide what to do about
Baby.

dgk
October 15th 12, 08:02 PM
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:39:37 +0000 (UTC),
(The Doctor) wrote:

>In article >,
>Bill Graham > wrote:
>>The Doctor wrote:
>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off either
>>>>>>>>> block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a long
>>>>>>>> life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come to
>>>>>>> think of it.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>
>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer lives
>>>> than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for cats with
>>>> access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and adults) with
>>>> pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas, ticks, mange,
>>>> roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia, feline herpes,
>>>> predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and fighting with other
>>>> cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on; this is just what I
>>>> quickly thought of.
>>>
>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>
>>I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats don't
>>have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity may be too
>>high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it "cruelty".
>>
>
>The reason why I said time for a harness is that those diseases
>are a case of point well taken. Our cat should
>get the privilege of the yard and no further.
>If he wants to go beyond that then he has to be on a harness.

CatFenceIn, or something like that. My little backyard is fenced in so
they can't get out. And they wear collars with Loc8tor tags on them so
I can track them if they do, or even in the house.

Mack A. Damia
October 15th 12, 09:12 PM
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:01:06 -0400, dgk > wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:36:54 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:22:19 -0400, dgk > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out to
>>>>>>>>>>>> roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live a
>>>>>>>>>>>> long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born in
>>>>>>>>>> the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant difference.
>>>>>>>>>> "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For instance, many
>>>>>>>>>> ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return to the comfort of
>>>>>>>>>> three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free as
>>>>>>>>>> a..........cat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but ZI
>>>>>>>>> would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if they
>>>>>>>>> were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a cost of
>>>>>>>>> their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in my house.
>>>>>>>>> They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap them just
>>>>>>>>> before the roving vet gets here, so they will be available for
>>>>>>>>> shots and inspection)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>>>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>>>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>>>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>>>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>>>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>>>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>>>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>>>>>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their longevity
>>>>>> may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't call it
>>>>>> "cruelty".
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
>>>>> roam.
>>>>
>>>>Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who thinks
>>>>he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make a law that
>>>>forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?
>>>>
>>>>Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of being the
>>>>first.
>>>>
>>>>Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to voice
>>>>the words to you.
>>>
>>>Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
>>>that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
>>>concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
>>>think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
>>>everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.
>>>
>>>Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
>>>marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
>>>with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
>>>my knowledge, been taken.
>>
>>What strikes me is Bill's insistence that I'm a liberal asshole who
>>knows everything. Let me tell you - the more I know, the more I don't
>>know.
>
>I try not to buttonhole people into commie or fascist. Most of us want
>to better the world and the people in it. We have different ideas how
>to do it. I am about as far left as they come, but that doesn't mean
>that I think that I'm right on every issue or cannot learn. As you
>said, the more I know, the more I don't know.
>
>The problem is that communism doesn't work because some people are too
>needy, and capitalism doesn't work because some people are too greedy.
>Something in the middle seems best.. No one wants to work hard and
>give their money to people who just don't want to work. On the other
>hand, I don't want to fund a military that exists to expand the power
>of the 1% that really rules the country but pretends to be about
>keeping us "safe".
>>
>>I have no control over the millions of cat owners in the world, but my
>>"own" opinion is that letting a cat roam is animal cruelty. It has
>>nothing to do whatsoever with political affiliation - except I do
>>think Romney is a pussy. Look at the way he walks.
>
>It depends on the situation. In the city, there are many ways a cat
>can die a painful death but lots of cats live pretty long lives
>outside. There is also a numbers game. I can take in three or four
>cats, but the rest live outside because there is just no one willing
>to take them in. So I can make a difference to one or two but we try
>the best we can to take care of the outside kittys.
>
>Right now I'm debating what to do about Baby. She was born in a box
>outside my front door and has lived all her life in the street near my
>house. She's the one who pooped in my neighbor's onion plants
>mentioned in another post. Well, Espy died last month so theoretically
>I have an opening for another cat. Baby is a delightful cat, friendly,
>small, with a nice personality as far as I can tell.
>
>She also is very good at living outside and seems to love it. She runs
>around, right up trees, and kills a bird once in a while. She rolls in
>the dirt. She lets me pet her and even pick her up.. I had her TNRd
>years when she was 5 months old.
>
>So do I take her in? Winter is coming but she made it through a few
>already, partly because I built her a styrofoam home with a heated
>interior.
>
>She seems to love it outside. She runs up to block when she seems me
>coming right onto my stoop to be fed. She runs into my driveway, under
>the bushes, up the tree. Then I go inside and my cats are lying on the
>couch. Just lying there. Or upstairs, on a perch by the windows
>looking out. Just lying there.
>
>So who has the better of the deal? My indoor cats, safe but not very
>stimulated even though I play the laser game and all kinds of toys. Or
>Baby, who pounces on real critters or climbs real trees or runs to
>greet me or one of the other neighbors.
>
>Yes, she has a decent chance of being run over by a car. It happens.
>But I think she really liikes it outside. Will she like it inside?
>Maybe. Her likely daddy is Scooter, who moved in with me. Sort of a
>family reunion then.
>
>My cats actually do get to go out in my backyard, which I have fenced
>in so they stay pretty safe. Still, I have to decide what to do about
>Baby.

All my cats have been strays including the Silver Persian
(Lloyd-George), and the Himmilayan (Sir Percy) who was a former stud
and given away to a neglectful elderly man who gave up on taking care
of her. Came across her former ownership purely by accident. You
know how much care long-hairs need - combing everyday. Turns out Sir
Percy had a pedigree - must have been about three or four when I found
her in the dead of winter; she was absolutely filthy, but she turned
out to be one of the best puddy-tats. Her original name was
"Berryhill's Dewey Morn".

--

cshenk
October 15th 12, 11:29 PM
Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
> roam.

No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).

Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile of
your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would not be
the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that is not
universal.


--

Mack A. Damia
October 16th 12, 12:27 AM
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let them
>> roam.
>
>No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>
>Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
>works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile of
>your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would not be
>the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that is not
>universal.

Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
script last night about urban versus rural living.

If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
expendable anyway.

Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.

--

Bill Graham
October 17th 12, 04:05 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
> ...
>> Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots
>> down, or fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from
>> moving them. Cats aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for
>> human beings. If the pots couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat
>> would have left them alone. Here, you can't force anyone to keep a
>> cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live in heavily congested
>> cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do would do this to
>> a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it pleases....
>
> My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
> shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
> knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
> cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
> watching stuff go down and BANG.
>
> Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
> the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
> part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
> neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
> planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
> either of those, but she liked to poop there.
>
> Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
> poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
> poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
> poops and leaves it.
>
> I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
> have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
> onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
> concern that people have about free roaming cats.
>
> At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
> can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
> being unreasonable.

When Adlai Stevenson was a judge in New York City, he wrote a decision on
the subject of keeping cats inside.... I have been looking for this
decision, but am unable to find it. Perhaps someone on this forum can help.

Bill Graham
October 17th 12, 04:12 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> The Doctor wrote:
>>> On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham > wrote:
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
> ---
>>
>> I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular
>> rounds, which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After
>> he died,one of his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to
>> my house and looked all over for his friend. Then he lay down on the
>> mat where my beloved B-K died for about ten minutes, and then got up
>> and went home. Had I imprisoned my cat, he would have never known
>> him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had I kept him trapped in
>> the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you would know why I
>> could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
>> gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and
>> animals.
>
> One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
> oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
> But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
> car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
> inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
> that's where he wanted to go.
>
> Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
> that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
> just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
> dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
> suffering.

I picked up B-K in a Burger King parking lot when he was a year old. He made
friends with me even before I picked him up and tossed him in my car. I had
him for another 6-1/2 years during which he befriended everyo9ne for a
radius of about two blocks, including their dogs and even those who were
allergic to cats knew him and liked him. He was a most unusual cat. He was
poisoned accidently by some, "Round-Up" weed killer that a neighbor used on
his lawn. The whole block was sorry when he died, but there was no way I
could have kept him inside my house. He lived to seek out and befriend
others, both human and otherwise.

Bill Graham
October 17th 12, 04:17 AM
dgk wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:46:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:16:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>> On 2012-10-14, Gandalf <ingold1234> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:48:27 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:34:41 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>> (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> First time owning a cat of our own.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I let him own for the 2nd time today. Just coming back from
>>>>>>>>>>> errands, I saw our cat roaming outside acceptable bounds!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He was coming back to our block, but he was not to go off
>>>>>>>>>>> either block or crescent.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He is due at the vet this Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What needs to be done?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Others may disagree, but I consider letting cats (pets) out
>>>>>>>>>> to roam "cruelty". If you love your cat and want it to live
>>>>>>>>>> a long life, you'll keep it strictly indoors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With some cats (and other animals) living a free life is more
>>>>>>>>> important than a long one... This applies to people also, come
>>>>>>>>> to think of it.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think cat's understand the concept. If they are born
>>>>>>>> in the wild and captured, they "sense" an unpleasant
>>>>>>>> difference. "Freedom" is a relative human construct. For
>>>>>>>> instance, many ex-convicts will re-commit in order to return
>>>>>>>> to the comfort of three hots and a cot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My cat is free to roam around a large two-story house with an
>>>>>>>> atrium where she even get a taste of the outdoors. She's free
>>>>>>>> as a..........cat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, I agree. Many cats are perfectly happy as incoor cats. but
>>>>>>> ZI would hardly call lettong one out, "cruelty". Especially if
>>>>>>> they were free when they came to me and I imprisoned them as a
>>>>>>> cost of their food and drink. My five cats choose to sleep in
>>>>>>> my house. They are free to leave at almost any time. (I do trap
>>>>>>> them just before the roving vet gets here, so they will be
>>>>>>> available for shots and inspection)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a well documented fact that indoor only cats live longer
>>>>>> lives than indoor/outdoor cats. There are MANY risk factors for
>>>>>> cats with access to the outdoor: cars/trucks/busses, kids (and
>>>>>> adults) with pellet rifles, slingshots, firearms, etc., fleas,
>>>>>> ticks, mange, roundworms, hookworms, FIP, FIV, feline leukemia,
>>>>>> feline herpes, predation by fox, coyotes, hawks, and owls, and
>>>>>> fighting with other cats, and dogs. I'm sure the list goes on;
>>>>>> this is just what I quickly thought of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is harness time for our cat.
>>>>
>>>> I never said that outdoor cats don't face hazards that indoor cats
>>>> don't have to face. I only suggest that the price of their
>>>> longevity may be too high for some. To each his own. Just don't
>>>> call it "cruelty".
>>>
>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>> them roam.
>>
>> Has anyone ever told you that you are a stupid liberal ass hole who
>> thinks he is the only one who knows anything, and would like to make
>> a law that forces everyone else on earth to live exactly as he does?
>>
>> Because if they haven't, then I would like to have the honor of
>> being the first.
>>
>> Not the first one I have ever met, and/or told, but the first one to
>> voice the words to you.
>
> Bill, I'm a liberal and I agree with you on this. My economic view is
> that we have a system that is tilting way too much towards wealth
> concentraion at the top and not enough is getting to everyone else. I
> think we need progressive taxation to help deal with that because
> everything else is tilted towards the wealthy.
>
> Most liberals believe in individual freedom, including the freedom to
> marry whoever you want, a freedom that most conservatives do not agree
> with. A poll on how they feel about indoor vs outdoor cats has not, to
> my knowledge, been taken.

Well, I am a libertarian, which is exactly the opposite of liberal, IMO.
There are many things, especially social things, on which the liberals and I
agree, but it is my experience that liberals think that theirs is the only
way to live, and they are happy to make laws that enforce this on everyone
else. They seem incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of others, even
for a few seconds.....

Mack A. Damia
October 17th 12, 04:42 AM
On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:05:09 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:40:16 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:05:13 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>> ...
>>> Sorry I can't sympathize with you. I would have nailed the pots
>>> down, or fixed them to the railing in some way to keep the cat from
>>> moving them. Cats aren't vindictive. This is a trait reserved for
>>> human beings. If the pots couldn't be easwily disturbed, the cat
>>> would have left them alone. Here, you can't force anyone to keep a
>>> cat locked up. Some do, usually when they live in heavily congested
>>> cities, but nobody who lives in rural areas as I do would do this to
>>> a cat. Every cat in my area is free to roam wherever it pleases....
>>
>> My recently departed best cat Espy used to love knocking things off of
>> shelves. In the middle of the night I'd hear something smash and I
>> knew that I left something too close to the edge. If he was an outdoor
>> cat, I can see him pushing pots off the edge. I think he just liked
>> watching stuff go down and BANG.
>>
>> Roving cats can cause problems with neighbors. Sure, you can nail down
>> the pots or otherwise make it difficult to move them, but that's only
>> part of it. Cats pee and poop, and that isn't pleasant for the
>> neighbors. One of our stray cats likes to poop where my neighbor
>> planted onions and garlic. Now I know cats aren't supposed to eat
>> either of those, but she liked to poop there.
>>
>> Not good, both because she would uproot them while trying to cover the
>> poop and because you really don't want your food covered with cat
>> poop. At least she liked to cover her poop; one of the other cats just
>> poops and leaves it.
>>
>> I actually turn over some soil on my property weekly just so the cats
>> have somewhere fresh to do their things. That seems to have solved the
>> onion problem, as does the ending of summer, but it is a legitimate
>> concern that people have about free roaming cats.
>>
>> At least TNRd cats don't have really smelly urine. Unneutered cat ****
>> can really be pungent. I don't think folks complaining about that are
>> being unreasonable.
>
>When Adlai Stevenson was a judge in New York City, he wrote a decision on
>the subject of keeping cats inside.... I have been looking for this
>decision, but am unable to find it. Perhaps someone on this forum can help.

Written when he was Governor of Illinois:

"The problem of cat versus bird is as old as time. If we attempt to
resolve it by legislation who knows but what we may be called upon to
take sides as well in the age old problems of dog versus cat, bird
versus bird, or even bird versus worm. In my opinion, the State of
Illinois and its local governing bodies already have enough to do
without trying to control feline delinquency."

"For these reasons, and not because I love birds the less or cats the
more, I veto and withhold my approval from Senate Bill No. 93. Vetoing
a Bill that would have imposed fines on owners who allowed cats to run
at large." (23 April 1949).

--

Bill Graham
October 17th 12, 06:51 AM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>> them roam.
>>
>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>> miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>> dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>>
>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
>> works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile
>> of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would
>> not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that
>> is not universal.
>
> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>
> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
> keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
> expendable anyway.
>
> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
> homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
> there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.

To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the highway",
and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it my way. I lived and
worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq the way they think and what a
pain in the ass they are. You guys will have to do an awful lot of hand
waving to change my mind at this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and
worked in California for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a
political philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It
believes that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because the
framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism is the exact
opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this counjtry has gove from
libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next 150 years we will become
completely socialized. The government will own and control everything. We
will go to the schools the government wants us to go to, study the subjects
the government wants us to study (by their tests and evaluations of our
abilities) work where they want us to work, live where they want us to live,
eat what they want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally
live exactly like a colony of ants.
Thank God I won't be around to see it

FragSinatra
October 17th 12, 03:47 PM
"Bill Graham" > wrote in
:

> dgk wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:25:46 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>> On 2012-10-14, Bill Graham > wrote:
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> ---
>>>
>>> I had one (B-K) who roamed more than a block away. He had regular
>>> rounds, which included canine friends that I didn't even know. After
>>> he died,one of his dog friends showed up at my door. He came in to
>>> my house and looked all over for his friend. Then he lay down on the
>>> mat where my beloved B-K died for about ten minutes, and then got up
>>> and went home. Had I imprisoned my cat, he would have never known
>>> him. Of course, B-K would still be alive had I kept him trapped in
>>> the house. but you didn't know B-K. If you did, you would know why I
>>> could never have kept him inside that way. This was a most
>>> gregarious animal. He lived to seek out and befriend new people and
>>> animals.
>>
>> One of my neighbors had six cats. Five stayed inside, or maybe came
>> oustide and sat around the steps while the neighbor stayed with them.
>> But one was allowed to roam, and he died a few months back, hit by a
>> car. We miss him terribly, and he would be alive if forced to stay
>> inside, but he insisted on going out. That's where he came from and
>> that's where he wanted to go.
>>
>> Sure they could have forced him to stay inside, but he was not happy
>> that way. The others know the outside and prefer to stay in. He was
>> just different and it would have been cruel to keep him in. So he's
>> dead, but we all die, and he got to enjoy his life and die without
>> suffering.
>
> I picked up B-K in a Burger King parking lot when he was a year old.
> He made friends with me even before I picked him up and tossed him in
> my car. I had him for another 6-1/2 years during which he befriended
> everyo9ne for a radius of about two blocks, including their dogs and
> even those who were allergic to cats knew him and liked him. He was a
> most unusual cat. He was poisoned accidently by some, "Round-Up" weed
> killer that a neighbor used on his lawn. The whole block was sorry
> when he died, but there was no way I could have kept him inside my
> house. He lived to seek out and befriend others, both human and
> otherwise.
>
>

B-K was an amazing cat. I don't know many cats that like or associate
with dogs -- even if they're raised with them.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

dgk
October 17th 12, 05:03 PM
On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>
>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>>> them roam.
>>>
>>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>>> miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>>> dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>>>
>>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is what
>>> works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within a mile
>>> of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area it would
>>> not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam, but that
>>> is not universal.
>>
>> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
>> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>>
>> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm cats
>> keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
>> expendable anyway.
>>
>> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from inner-city
>> homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places - any place where
>> there are a lot of animals roaming the area and busy roads.
>
>To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the highway",
>and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it my way. I lived and
>worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq the way they think and what a
>pain in the ass they are. You guys will have to do an awful lot of hand
>waving to change my mind at this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and
>worked in California for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a
>political philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It
>believes that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
>end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because the
>framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism is the exact
>opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this counjtry has gove from
>libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next 150 years we will become
>completely socialized. The government will own and control everything. We
>will go to the schools the government wants us to go to, study the subjects
>the government wants us to study (by their tests and evaluations of our
>abilities) work where they want us to work, live where they want us to live,
>eat what they want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally
>live exactly like a colony of ants.
>Thank God I won't be around to see it

I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will add
an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto of a law
by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject of outlawing
roaming cats:

http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html

And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.

Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not teach
them science even though it may contradict religous teachings? Should
we have laws that parents can't kill their own children?

I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad I'm a
liberal and not a libertarian.

Bill Graham
October 17th 12, 11:55 PM
dgk wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>>
>>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>>>> them roam.
>>>>
>>>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>>>> miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>>>> dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>>>>
>>>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is
>>>> what works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within
>>>> a mile of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area
>>>> it would not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam,
>>>> but that is not universal.
>>>
>>> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
>>> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>>>
>>> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm
>>> cats keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
>>> expendable anyway.
>>>
>>> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from
>>> inner-city homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places -
>>> any place where there are a lot of animals roaming the area and
>>> busy roads.
>>
>> To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the
>> highway", and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it
>> my way. I lived and worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq
>> the way they think and what a pain in the ass they are. You guys
>> will have to do an awful lot of hand waving to change my mind at
>> this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and worked in California
>> for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a political
>> philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It believes
>> that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
>> end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because
>> the framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism
>> is the exact opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this
>> counjtry has gove from libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next
>> 150 years we will become completely socialized. The government will
>> own and control everything. We will go to the schools the government
>> wants us to go to, study the subjects the government wants us to
>> study (by their tests and evaluations of our abilities) work where
>> they want us to work, live where they want us to live, eat what they
>> want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally live
>> exactly like a colony of ants.
>> Thank God I won't be around to see it
>
> I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will add
> an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto of a law
> by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject of outlawing
> roaming cats:
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html
>
> And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
> people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
> and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.
>
> Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not teach
> them science even though it may contradict religous teachings? Should
> we have laws that parents can't kill their own children?
>
> I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad I'm a
> liberal and not a libertarian.

A true libertarian does not reject these things. You are confusing
libertarians with religious nut conservatives. I am an atheist, and I could
care less about the marriage laws. I believe that the rights given to the
peopole under the constitution have some limitations. Age limits for one
thing. A chuld cannot vote or do some other things that adults can do. The
Roe vs. Wade decision of the Supreme Court also took the right to life away
from human beings before the first trimester of pregnancy. I agree with this
decision. It is arbitrary, but the line needed to be drawn somewhere, and
three months was a pretty good place. Please don't throw me into a bag. And,
if you admit that5 there could be circumstances where it is OK to allow your
cat to leave the house unjder his own power, I won't throw you into one
either.....

Matthew[_3_]
October 18th 12, 12:10 AM
"FragSinatra" >


NO it is finished you want to talk politics. Here is a answer to remember
YOU ARE WRONG ALWAYS

Politicians dont even know about politics and neither does anyone else
except it is all lies and Bull****.

This is a cat group remember that

Mack A. Damia
October 18th 12, 12:43 AM
On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 19:10:17 -0400, "Matthew"
> wrote:

>
>"FragSinatra" >
>
>
>NO it is finished you want to talk politics. Here is a answer to remember
>YOU ARE WRONG ALWAYS
>
>Politicians dont even know about politics and neither does anyone else
>except it is all lies and Bull****.
>
>This is a cat group remember that

I'm with you.

--

dgk
October 18th 12, 06:02 PM
On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:55:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>>>>> them roam.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>>>>> miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>>>>> dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is
>>>>> what works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within
>>>>> a mile of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area
>>>>> it would not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam,
>>>>> but that is not universal.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
>>>> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>>>>
>>>> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm
>>>> cats keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
>>>> expendable anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from
>>>> inner-city homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places -
>>>> any place where there are a lot of animals roaming the area and
>>>> busy roads.
>>>
>>> To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the
>>> highway", and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it
>>> my way. I lived and worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq
>>> the way they think and what a pain in the ass they are. You guys
>>> will have to do an awful lot of hand waving to change my mind at
>>> this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and worked in California
>>> for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a political
>>> philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It believes
>>> that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
>>> end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because
>>> the framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism
>>> is the exact opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this
>>> counjtry has gove from libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next
>>> 150 years we will become completely socialized. The government will
>>> own and control everything. We will go to the schools the government
>>> wants us to go to, study the subjects the government wants us to
>>> study (by their tests and evaluations of our abilities) work where
>>> they want us to work, live where they want us to live, eat what they
>>> want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally live
>>> exactly like a colony of ants.
>>> Thank God I won't be around to see it
>>
>> I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will add
>> an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto of a law
>> by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject of outlawing
>> roaming cats:
>>
>> http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html
>>
>> And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
>> people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
>> and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.
>>
>> Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not teach
>> them science even though it may contradict religous teachings? Should
>> we have laws that parents can't kill their own children?
>>
>> I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad I'm a
>> liberal and not a libertarian.
>
>A true libertarian does not reject these things. You are confusing
>libertarians with religious nut conservatives. I am an atheist, and I could
>care less about the marriage laws. I believe that the rights given to the
>peopole under the constitution have some limitations. Age limits for one
>thing. A chuld cannot vote or do some other things that adults can do. The
>Roe vs. Wade decision of the Supreme Court also took the right to life away
>from human beings before the first trimester of pregnancy. I agree with this
>decision. It is arbitrary, but the line needed to be drawn somewhere, and
>three months was a pretty good place. Please don't throw me into a bag. And,
>if you admit that5 there could be circumstances where it is OK to allow your
>cat to leave the house unjder his own power, I won't throw you into one
>either.....


I agree.

Mack A. Damia
October 18th 12, 06:23 PM
On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:02:29 -0400, dgk > wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:55:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>wrote:
>
>>dgk wrote:
>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to let
>>>>>>> them roam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are 50
>>>>>> miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor. The
>>>>>> dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common for one).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is
>>>>>> what works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways within
>>>>>> a mile of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In *my* area
>>>>>> it would not be the most responsible of behavior to let them roam,
>>>>>> but that is not universal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
>>>>> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm
>>>>> cats keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats are
>>>>> expendable anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from
>>>>> inner-city homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places -
>>>>> any place where there are a lot of animals roaming the area and
>>>>> busy roads.
>>>>
>>>> To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the
>>>> highway", and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it
>>>> my way. I lived and worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq
>>>> the way they think and what a pain in the ass they are. You guys
>>>> will have to do an awful lot of hand waving to change my mind at
>>>> this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and worked in California
>>>> for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a political
>>>> philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It believes
>>>> that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works toward that
>>>> end every moment of every day. It hates our constitution, because
>>>> the framers of that document were libertarians, and libertarianism
>>>> is the exact opposite of liberalism. In the last 150 years, this
>>>> counjtry has gove from libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next
>>>> 150 years we will become completely socialized. The government will
>>>> own and control everything. We will go to the schools the government
>>>> wants us to go to, study the subjects the government wants us to
>>>> study (by their tests and evaluations of our abilities) work where
>>>> they want us to work, live where they want us to live, eat what they
>>>> want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally live
>>>> exactly like a colony of ants.
>>>> Thank God I won't be around to see it
>>>
>>> I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will add
>>> an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto of a law
>>> by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject of outlawing
>>> roaming cats:
>>>
>>> http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html
>>>
>>> And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
>>> people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
>>> and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.
>>>
>>> Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not teach
>>> them science even though it may contradict religous teachings? Should
>>> we have laws that parents can't kill their own children?
>>>
>>> I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad I'm a
>>> liberal and not a libertarian.
>>
>>A true libertarian does not reject these things. You are confusing
>>libertarians with religious nut conservatives. I am an atheist, and I could
>>care less about the marriage laws. I believe that the rights given to the
>>peopole under the constitution have some limitations. Age limits for one
>>thing. A chuld cannot vote or do some other things that adults can do. The
>>Roe vs. Wade decision of the Supreme Court also took the right to life away
>>from human beings before the first trimester of pregnancy. I agree with this
>>decision. It is arbitrary, but the line needed to be drawn somewhere, and
>>three months was a pretty good place. Please don't throw me into a bag. And,
>>if you admit that5 there could be circumstances where it is OK to allow your
>>cat to leave the house unjder his own power, I won't throw you into one
>>either.....
>
>
>I agree.

As I said, I don't want to turn this forum into a political bar room
brawl, but if Roe v. Wade is overturned, it will only transfer the
issue to the states, and there will be plenty of them where abortion
will be legal. Seems to me that I only see the craziness about
abortion in the southern states - the ones where poverty and ignorance
are the greatest. It doesn't happen in, say, California, New York or
Massachusetts.

Of course, it is up to the owner in the final analysis. Cats run
wild. I see too many of them dead on the roads. I don't like that.

I'm a puddy-tat lover.
--

dgk
October 19th 12, 02:31 PM
On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:23:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:02:29 -0400, dgk > wrote:
>
....
>>
>>I agree.
>
>As I said, I don't want to turn this forum into a political bar room
>brawl, but if Roe v. Wade is overturned, it will only transfer the
>issue to the states, and there will be plenty of them where abortion
>will be legal. Seems to me that I only see the craziness about
>abortion in the southern states - the ones where poverty and ignorance
>are the greatest. It doesn't happen in, say, California, New York or
>Massachusetts.
>
>Of course, it is up to the owner in the final analysis. Cats run
>wild. I see too many of them dead on the roads. I don't like that.
>
>I'm a puddy-tat lover.

Yes, but most of them aren't pet cats roaming free, they're homeless.
There are so many around where I live that I doubt there is a single
mouse or rat to be found in the area. Still, it's sad and I wish I
could do more but I try to do what I can. I'm facing a choice of
taking in a nice cat that lives near me or leaving her on the street,
where she's pretty streetwise, and getting one that is on death row at
the local shelter.

Bill Graham
October 19th 12, 11:35 PM
Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:02:29 -0400, dgk > wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:55:41 -0700, "Bill Graham" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:51:50 -0700, "Bill Graham"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:29:01 -0500, "cshenk" >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack A. Damia wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you don't truly love your cats. It's animal cruelty to
>>>>>>>> let them roam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No it isn't. Not all of us live in big cities. Some of us are
>>>>>>> 50 miles from an interstate and 3-20 from the nearest neighbor.
>>>>>>> The dangers in rural area can vary (wild animals more common
>>>>>>> for one).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I live in a big city and have only indoor cats, but that is
>>>>>>> what works when you have 1 interstate and 3 55mph highways
>>>>>>> within a mile of your house (one is less than 300 yards). In
>>>>>>> *my* area it would not be the most responsible of behavior to
>>>>>>> let them roam, but that is not universal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah; there are always exceptions, and I was going to add a post-
>>>>>> script last night about urban versus rural living.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there are no heavily-traveled roads nearby - then maybe. Farm
>>>>>> cats keep down the rodent population. Well, I guess farm cats
>>>>>> are expendable anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never had the pleasure. I'm talking about all the way from
>>>>>> inner-city homes to semi-rural/next-to-a-suburb kinds of places -
>>>>>> any place where there are a lot of animals roaming the area and
>>>>>> busy roads.
>>>>>
>>>>> To a true liberal, there are no exceptionws. It's "My way or the
>>>>> highway", and I'm gonna make a law that says everyone has to do it
>>>>> my way. I lived and worked with these people for 40 years. I knowq
>>>>> the way they think and what a pain in the ass they are. You guys
>>>>> will have to do an awful lot of hand waving to change my mind at
>>>>> this point. I am 77 years old, and lived and worked in California
>>>>> for about 40 years. Liberaliswm is a mindset, and not a political
>>>>> philosophy. It loves regulation and hates individualism. It
>>>>> believes that the perfect society is an ant colony, and it works
>>>>> toward that end every moment of every day. It hates our
>>>>> constitution, because the framers of that document were
>>>>> libertarians, and libertarianism is the exact opposite of
>>>>> liberalism. In the last 150 years, this counjtry has gove from
>>>>> libertarianism to 50% socialism. In the next 150 years we will
>>>>> become completely socialized. The government will own and control
>>>>> everything. We will go to the schools the government wants us to
>>>>> go to, study the subjects the government wants us to study (by
>>>>> their tests and evaluations of our abilities) work where they
>>>>> want us to work, live where they want us to live, eat what they
>>>>> want us to eat, wear what they want us to wear, and generally
>>>>> live exactly like a colony of ants.
>>>>> Thank God I won't be around to see it
>>>>
>>>> I disagree completely but that is the nature of newsgroups. I will
>>>> add an on topic link that was requested elsewhere, noting a veto
>>>> of a law by noted liberal governer Adlai Stephenson on the subject
>>>> of outlawing roaming cats:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bartleby.com/73/163.html
>>>>
>>>> And it is conservatives who rule that marriage isn't meant for gay
>>>> people, and conservatives that make it illegal for me to smoke pot,
>>>> and conservatives who want a raped woman to bear the child.
>>>>
>>>> Should society not force children to go to school? Should we not
>>>> teach them science even though it may contradict religous
>>>> teachings? Should we have laws that parents can't kill their own
>>>> children?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose a true libertarian rejects all of these? Then I'm glad
>>>> I'm a liberal and not a libertarian.
>>>
>>> A true libertarian does not reject these things. You are confusing
>>> libertarians with religious nut conservatives. I am an atheist, and
>>> I could care less about the marriage laws. I believe that the
>>> rights given to the peopole under the constitution have some
>>> limitations. Age limits for one thing. A chuld cannot vote or do
>>> some other things that adults can do. The Roe vs. Wade decision of
>>> the Supreme Court also took the right to life away from human
>>> beings before the first trimester of pregnancy. I agree with this
>>> decision. It is arbitrary, but the line needed to be drawn
>>> somewhere, and three months was a pretty good place. Please don't
>>> throw me into a bag. And, if you admit that5 there could be
>>> circumstances where it is OK to allow your cat to leave the house
>>> unjder his own power, I won't throw you into one either.....
>>
>>
>> I agree.
>
> As I said, I don't want to turn this forum into a political bar room
> brawl, but if Roe v. Wade is overturned, it will only transfer the
> issue to the states, and there will be plenty of them where abortion
> will be legal. Seems to me that I only see the craziness about
> abortion in the southern states - the ones where poverty and ignorance
> are the greatest. It doesn't happen in, say, California, New York or
> Massachusetts.
>
> Of course, it is up to the owner in the final analysis. Cats run
> wild. I see too many of them dead on the roads. I don't like that.
>
> I'm a puddy-tat lover.

On this we agree... I don't like to swee them deaqd either.
But there are things worse than death.

We are all mortal, both cats and men. We all die. Of more importance than
death is the way we live. Most cats are happy sleeping inside a warm house.
But there are a few who are not happy doing that, and for theswe few,
freedom is necessary. I had one for which this was true. I will never forget
him. He was truly a "Cat for all seasons".