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July 26th 17, 01:14 PM
Hmmmm… I have come to doubt this individual’s understanding of what a “Feral” cat actually is. There are, typically four types of cats seen in outdoor settings, broad brush:
a) Housecats that are allowed outdoors – common enough. In some areas, outdoor access is a requirement to keeping a cat, really. Is it always a good idea? Not hardly!
b) Stray cats – these are cats that once had a home, but for any number of reasons no longer do so.
c) “Alley” Cats – these are cats that never had a home, but live peripheral to people and depend on people to survive. They may do so by scrounging, hunting, or by being fed. An excellent example of much appreciated Alley Cats would be the street cats of Istanbul. My wife and I spent some time in Istanbul, and were promptly adopted by a clowder of about 4 cats that decided we were 'good people'. No food involved or required. We did put out water, however.

https://vimeo.com/87816089


All of the above come in various degrees of shyness, defensiveness and distrust, but the bottom line is that they are as dependent on people as any given housecat for the most part. Stray and Alley cats tend to live relatively short lives, are subject to many diseases and other problems, but their survival rate would be much lower without people. And, all of the above will, eventually, adapt to living closely with people (in a ‘home’), over time. Some, even (at least the three I have taken on) will even become aggressively affectionate.


d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a ‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever. They do not depend on people. They do not eat ‘people’ or ‘people-source’ food, even if offered. They do not eat carrion unless they killed it themselves. They want about as much to do with people as does the typical Lynx, Mountain Lion or similar. Feral cats live an average of over ten (10) years, mostly based on heavy attrition during the first six months of life. Once about a year old, they tend to make an average of about fifteen years. They have the same general attitude to being captured and ‘tamed’ as would that Lynx or Mountain Lion. Not to suggest that they cannot adapt, but the attitude is feral.
These guys might take years, if at all, to be gentle enough to handle. And given a chance, they may simply abscond. As would that Lynx or Mountain Lion.

So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as “feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Mark Carroll[_2_]
July 26th 17, 01:33 PM
On 26 Jul 2017, wrote:

> d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a ‘people’ home,
> probably for generations if ever.

> So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as “feral”. It is
> not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feral

] 1. A domesticated animal that has returned to the wild; an animal,
] particularly a domesticated animal, living independently of humans.

Indeed, the Oxford English Dictionary confirms even, "Now often applied
to animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a domesticated
condition."

So, be exceedingly careful when assuming that your definition is the
only appropriate or acceptable one. Also note that those of us reading
are quite able to form our own opinions of John Doe without your telling
us what to think.

-- Mark

July 26th 17, 01:54 PM
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral

First and Second a) definition have nothing to do with formerly domesticated.

Common usage is often apart from base meaning, put another way, a term abused becomes muddled at the cost of accuracy.

"Feral" is a specific term that has lost some of its edge due to misuse.

So, let's just stick with "like a Lynx or Mountain Lion" as context rather than trying to force the exception.

Keep in mind that there are very nearly 300,000 distinct words in the English Language, including obsolete words. Compounds and derivatives bring this to very nearly 1,000,000.

The average American uses about 5,000. Any wonder why so many of those few that are used are abused?

As to "Opinion":

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

John Doe[_2_]
July 26th 17, 02:22 PM
What a coincidence. Merriam-Webster was the first dictionary
publisher to accept my definition of the word "save" as
advertising uses it every day all day.

BUY NOW AND SAVE!!!
SAVE $20
SAVE MONEY

I got a confirmation letter from Oxford University Press and
they ended up publishing it 10 years later. Every other major
dictionary has published my definition of "save".

Anytime the original poster wants to lecture me on semantics,
it should think about that. All day every day. Language is
for communication, that is all. If the OP has trouble
understanding someone it can ask for clarification.

Really, the OP needs to get out more. On the open Internet in
busy discussion with people from all different countries, one
cannot be picky.

Thanks to the other reply author.

--
pfjw aol.com wrote:

> X-Received: by 10.101.76.194 with SMTP id n2mr580900pgt.125.1501073684103; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
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> NNTP-Posting-Host: 100.11.134.66
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> From: pfjw aol.com
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> Xref: news.eternal-september.org rec.pets.cats.health+behav:12468
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral
>
> First and Second a) definition have nothing to do with formerly domesticated.
>
> Common usage is often apart from base meaning, put another way, a term abused becomes muddled at the cost of accuracy.
>
> "Feral" is a specific term that has lost some of its edge due to misuse.
>
> So, let's just stick with "like a Lynx or Mountain Lion" as context rather than trying to force the exception.
>
> Keep in mind that there are very nearly 300,000 distinct words in the English Language, including obsolete words. Compounds and derivatives bring this to very nearly 1,000,000.
>
> The average American uses about 5,000. Any wonder why so many of those few that are used are abused?
>
> As to "Opinion":
>
> oYou are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.
>
>  Harlan Ellison
>
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
>
>

cshenk
July 30th 17, 12:16 AM
wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> Hmmmm… I have come to doubt this individual’s understanding of
> what a “Feral” cat actually is. There are, typically four types
> of cats seen in outdoor settings, broad brush: a) Housecats that
> are allowed outdoors – common enough. In some areas, outdoor access
> is a requirement to keeping a cat, really. Is it always a good idea?
> Not hardly! b) Stray cats – these are cats that once had a
> home, but for any number of reasons no longer do so. c)
> “Alley” Cats – these are cats that never had a home, but live
> peripheral to people and depend on people to survive. They may do so
> by scrounging, hunting, or by being fed. An excellent example of much
> appreciated Alley Cats would be the street cats of Istanbul. My wife
> and I spent some time in Istanbul, and were promptly adopted by a
> clowder of about 4 cats that decided we were 'good people'. No food
> involved or required. We did put out water, however.
>
> https://vimeo.com/87816089
>
>
> All of the above come in various degrees of shyness, defensiveness
> and distrust, but the bottom line is that they are as dependent on
> people as any given housecat for the most part. Stray and Alley cats
> tend to live relatively short lives, are subject to many diseases and
> other problems, but their survival rate would be much lower without
> people. And, all of the above will, eventually, adapt to living
> closely with people (in a ‘home’), over time. Some, even (at
> least the three I have taken on) will even become aggressively
> affectionate.
>
>
> d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a
> ‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever. They do not
> depend on people. They do not eat ‘people’ or ‘people-source’
> food, even if offered. They do not eat carrion unless they killed it
> themselves. They want about as much to do with people as does the
> typical Lynx, Mountain Lion or similar. Feral cats live an average of
> over ten (10) years, mostly based on heavy attrition during the first
> six months of life. Once about a year old, they tend to make an
> average of about fifteen years. They have the same general attitude
> to being captured and ‘tamed’ as would that Lynx or Mountain
> Lion. Not to suggest that they cannot adapt, but the attitude is
> feral. These guys might take years, if at all, to be gentle enough
> to handle. And given a chance, they may simply abscond. As would that
> Lynx or Mountain Lion.
>
> So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as
> “feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Peter, I assume 'John Doe' is someone in my killfile for spamming or
something. He must have said something to spark this.

Either way, English is not a precise language, no matter how much you
may wish it. While the word 'Feral' is often mis-attributed, it's not
the black and white you make it out to be in real use.

I've seen people try to be so specific so as to rule out anyone ever
owning/taming a feral as by their definition, it is part of their rules
to be a feral that it can't be done. In fact though, those who claim
that just do not have the experience to do it and also tend to think
'all ferals are alike' (they aren't, they are as different as home
raised are where one is a lap kitty and the other is aloof).

--

cshenk
July 30th 17, 01:00 AM
Mark Carroll wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> On 26 Jul 2017, wrote:
>
> > d) d) Feral cats – these are cats that have never had a
> > ‘people’ home, probably for generations if ever.
>
> > So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as
> > “feral”. It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific
> > term.
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feral
>
> ] 1. A domesticated animal that has returned to the wild; an animal,
> ] particularly a domesticated animal, living independently of humans.
>
> Indeed, the Oxford English Dictionary confirms even, "Now often
> applied to animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a
> domesticated condition."
>
> So, be exceedingly careful when assuming that your definition is the
> only appropriate or acceptable one. Also note that those of us reading
> are quite able to form our own opinions of John Doe without your
> telling us what to think.
>
> -- Mark

Correct Mark, though I don't have John Doe's message here.

I joined a cat rescue message group some years back thinking I might be
able to help with harder case semi-ferals and ferals. I'd been doing
cat rescue fostering for 35 years by then.

Semi-feral is a rescue term here used for 'had human interaction likely
but has been living wild an estimated 4 years or more'. Many colony
cats and barn cats fit loosely in that area. Peter is trying to define
those as strays or alley cats. No skin off my nose if he wants to do
so, but he will mismatch with common use of rescue organizations and
the general public if so. When put up for adoption, tend to be called
'Alley Cat' and seen plenty called 'Diamond in the rough' if they were
minimally impacted and adapted/re-adapted well to people.

They aren't allowed to list them as feral here for adoption (I do not
know why, possibly impressions like Peter has?).

I can tell you the story of Daisy-chan if interested. It shows the
difference that Peter doesnt grasp.



--

John Doe[_2_]
July 30th 17, 05:18 PM
The poster preventing itself from seeing someone else's posts
is useless and appears to be more of a game, as if playing
with an imaginary killfile friend. People who proclaim to
killfile someone end up replying to that person's posts, as
if their imaginary kill file friend comes and goes.

The only half decent kill file is ignoring the thread branch
started by the other person instead of just ignoring
individual posts. But that can be done most easily with a
simple "ignore thread branch" function.

The only effective filter on USENET is "ignore thread branch"
done on a case-by-case basis.

If mutual blocking were available on USENET, I would happily
put someone who objects to my posts out of their misery.
Trolls who can be excluded from conversations will think
twice before trolling. Hopefully mutual blocking will take
hold on Internet discussion forums even though never on
USENET. Apparently mutual blocking is implemented on Twitter
and/or Facebook.

--
"cshenk" <cshenk1 cox.net> wrote:

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>
> pfjw aol.com wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Hmmmm I have come to doubt this individual Ts understanding of
>> what a oFeral cat actually is. There are, typically four types
>> of cats seen in outdoor settings, broad brush: a) Housecats that
>> are allowed outdoors " common enough. In some areas, outdoor access
>> is a requirement to keeping a cat, really. Is it always a good idea?
>> Not hardly! b) Stray cats " these are cats that once had a
>> home, but for any number of reasons no longer do so. c)
>> oAlley Cats " these are cats that never had a home, but live
>> peripheral to people and depend on people to survive. They may do so
>> by scrounging, hunting, or by being fed. An excellent example of much
>> appreciated Alley Cats would be the street cats of Istanbul. My wife
>> and I spent some time in Istanbul, and were promptly adopted by a
>> clowder of about 4 cats that decided we were 'good people'. No food
>> involved or required. We did put out water, however.
>>
>> https://vimeo.com/87816089
>>
>>
>> All of the above come in various degrees of shyness, defensiveness
>> and distrust, but the bottom line is that they are as dependent on
>> people as any given housecat for the most part. Stray and Alley cats
>> tend to live relatively short lives, are subject to many diseases and
>> other problems, but their survival rate would be much lower without
>> people. And, all of the above will, eventually, adapt to living
>> closely with people (in a ~home T), over time. Some, even (at
>> least the three I have taken on) will even become aggressively
>> affectionate.
>>
>>
>> d) d) Feral cats " these are cats that have never had a
>> ~people T home, probably for generations if ever. They do not
>> depend on people. They do not eat ~people T or ~people-source T
>> food, even if offered. They do not eat carrion unless they killed it
>> themselves. They want about as much to do with people as does the
>> typical Lynx, Mountain Lion or similar. Feral cats live an average of
>> over ten (10) years, mostly based on heavy attrition during the first
>> six months of life. Once about a year old, they tend to make an
>> average of about fifteen years. They have the same general attitude
>> to being captured and ~tamed T as would that Lynx or Mountain
>> Lion. Not to suggest that they cannot adapt, but the attitude is
>> feral. These guys might take years, if at all, to be gentle enough
>> to handle. And given a chance, they may simply abscond. As would that
>> Lynx or Mountain Lion.
>>
>> So, be exceedingly careful when characterizing any animal as
>> oferal . It is not a simple descriptive, but a very specific term.
>>
>> Peter Wieck
>> Melrose Park, PA
>
> Peter, I assume 'John Doe' is someone in my killfile for spamming or
> something. He must have said something to spark this.
>
> Either way, English is not a precise language, no matter how much you
> may wish it. While the word 'Feral' is often mis-attributed, it's not
> the black and white you make it out to be in real use.
>
> I've seen people try to be so specific so as to rule out anyone ever
> owning/taming a feral as by their definition, it is part of their rules
> to be a feral that it can't be done. In fact though, those who claim
> that just do not have the experience to do it and also tend to think
> 'all ferals are alike' (they aren't, they are as different as home
> raised are where one is a lap kitty and the other is aloof).
>
> --
>
>
>

Mark Carroll[_2_]
July 30th 17, 05:25 PM
On 30 Jul 2017, John Doe wrote:

> The only half decent kill file is ignoring the thread branch
> started by the other person instead of just ignoring
> individual posts. But that can be done most easily with a
> simple "ignore thread branch" function.

In fairness, while I concur regarding its desirability, in many
newsreaders such a function is not easily found and employed.

-- Mark

John Doe[_2_]
July 30th 17, 05:32 PM
Mark Carroll > wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>
>> The only half decent kill file is ignoring the thread
>> branch started by the other person instead of just
>> ignoring individual posts. But that can be done most
>> easily with a simple "ignore thread branch" function.
>
> In fairness, while I concur regarding its desirability, in
> many newsreaders such a function is not easily found and
> employed.

Forte including that function in Agent 4 is the reason I
bought it. But it is also available in Xnews that I am still
using even though now I also have Agent 8.

I suppose it is not available in Google Groups.

The reason Google destroyed the archive occurs to me now,
probably because it goes against Google's need for people to
use its commercial search engine. They are so smart.

Peter W.
July 31st 17, 01:56 AM
Mark, Mr. Schenk:

Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.

Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither semi (anything) nor feral (anything).

Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered, please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level, however removed. Full stop.

Please answer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

John Doe[_2_]
July 31st 17, 01:15 PM
Netcop-wannabe troll from Google Groups...

--
"Peter W." <pfjw aol.com> wrote:

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>
> Mark, Mr. Schenk:
>
> Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.
>
> Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither semi (anything) nor feral (anything).
>
> Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered, please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level, however removed. Full stop.
>
> Please answer.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
>

cshenk
August 1st 17, 02:01 AM
Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> Mark, Mr. Schenk:
>
> Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
> words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.
>
> Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
> semi (anything) nor feral (anything).
>
> Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
> European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
> it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
> please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They
> are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful
> thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless
> cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level,
> however removed. Full stop.
>
> Please answer.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also changed
breeds off the domestic line.

Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with no
shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no place
with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that way but
will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.

Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
have with cat rescue?

I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It takes
time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will not change.

--

Peter W.
August 1st 17, 11:38 AM
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 9:01:28 PM UTC-4, cshenk wrote:
> Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Mark, Mr. Schenk:
> >
> > Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
> > words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.
> >
> > Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
> > semi (anything) nor feral (anything).
> >
> > Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
> > European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
> > it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
> > please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They
> > are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful
> > thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless
> > cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level,
> > however removed. Full stop.
> >
> > Please answer.
> >
> > Peter Wieck
> > Melrose Park, PA
>
> Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
> have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also changed
> breeds off the domestic line.
>
> Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with no
> shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no place
> with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that way but
> will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.
>
> Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
> have with cat rescue?
>
> I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It takes
> time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will not change.
>
> --

I have been rescuing - and not from shelters - cats at one level or another for very nearly 50 years now, and on two continents. None of the present incumbents are rescues at this time, but the most recent was about six years ago and placed with one of the kids. We keep only two cats at a time, usually very long times.

I do notice your evasion of the direct question: What would *YOU* do were you by accident or design in control of a European Wild Cat?

In my case, it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_wildcat that my wife and I found injured and barely conscious on the highway between Riyadh and Khobar - not by a vehicle, but probably by some other predator. After having it vetted, cleaned, and a few stitches (all the while tranquilized) it became clear that this one was no domestic cat (the Bedouin are very fond of cats for many good reasons - so seeing cats away from civilization is not uncommon). The vet kept it for two days to make sure that there were no complications - it drank but did not eat - and then I returned it to where we found it. It did not look back.

So, your answer?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

John Doe[_2_]
August 1st 17, 02:29 PM
Netcop-wannabe troll...

--
"Peter W." <pfjw aol.com> wrote:

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> Subject: Re: John Doe
> From: "Peter W." <pfjw aol.com>
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> Xref: news.eternal-september.org rec.pets.cats.health+behav:12498
>
> On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 9:01:28 PM UTC-4, cshenk wrote:
>> Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>> > Mark, Mr. Schenk:
>> >
>> > Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
>> > words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.
>> >
>> > Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
>> > semi (anything) nor feral (anything).
>> >
>> > Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
>> > European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
>> > it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
>> > please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter. They
>> > are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much wishful
>> > thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat, homeless
>> > cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any level,
>> > however removed. Full stop.
>> >
>> > Please answer.
>> >
>> > Peter Wieck
>> > Melrose Park, PA
>>
>> Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
>> have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also changed
>> breeds off the domestic line.
>>
>> Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with no
>> shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no place
>> with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that way but
>> will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.
>>
>> Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
>> have with cat rescue?
>>
>> I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It takes
>> time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will not change.
>>
>> --
>
> I have been rescuing - and not from shelters - cats at one level or another for very nearly 50 years now, and on two continents. None of the present incumbents are rescues at this time, but the most recent was about six years ago and placed with one of the kids. We keep only two cats at a time, usually very long times.
>
> I do notice your evasion of the direct question: What would *YOU* do were you by accident or design in control of a European Wild Cat?
>
> In my case, it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_wildcat that my wife and I found injured and barely conscious on the highway between Riyadh and Khobar - not by a vehicle, but probably by some other predator. After having it vetted, cleaned, and a few stitches (all the while tranquilized) it became clear that this one was no domestic cat (the Bedouin are very fond of cats for many good reasons - so seeing cats away from civilization is not uncommon). The vet kept it for two days to make sure that there were no complications - it drank but did not eat - and then I returned it to where we found it. It did not look back.
>
> So, your answer?
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
>

cshenk
August 2nd 17, 10:51 PM
Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 9:01:28 PM UTC-4, cshenk wrote:
> > Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >
> > > Mark, Mr. Schenk:
> > >
> > > Two things: I did state that if one wishes to dilute the value of
> > > words, us Lynx or Mountain Lion to understand the point.
> > >
> > > Then, consider William of Occam - "semi-feral" is neither. Neither
> > > semi (anything) nor feral (anything).
> > >
> > > Answer one question, carefully: Were you to find/trap a genuine
> > > European Wild Cat under your control, would you attempt to 'gentle
> > > it' into a house pet? That is a yes/no question. Once answered,
> > > please apply that answer to the next actual Feral you encounter.
> > > They are NOT, in any way, shape, form or after however much
> > > wishful thinking, anything like any sort of barn cat, stray cat,
> > > homeless cat, nor any other sort of human-interactive cat at any
> > > level, however removed. Full stop.
> > >
> > > Please answer.
> > >
> > > Peter Wieck
> > > Melrose Park, PA
> >
> > Peter, lets start that you can't even spell my nickname, nor did you
> > have any reason to assume my sex (got it wrong BTW). You also
> > changed breeds off the domestic line.
> >
> > Unless you have OCD issues, the world is not 'black or white, with
> > no shades of grey'. If you do really think the world is a yes or no
> > place with no shades of color, then I am sorry that you feel that
> > way but will endtrans the conversation as not worth my time.
> >
> > Lets try it another way. How many years and in what capacity do you
> > have with cat rescue?
> >
> > I have 37 years at it, working my ways up to to harder cases. It
> > takes time, patience, knowledge, and willing to accept what will
> > not change.
> >
> > --
>
> I have been rescuing - and not from shelters - cats at one level or
> another for very nearly 50 years now, and on two continents. None of
> the present incumbents are rescues at this time, but the most recent
> was about six years ago and placed with one of the kids. We keep only
> two cats at a time, usually very long times.
>
> I do notice your evasion of the direct question: What would YOU do
> were you by accident or design in control of a European Wild Cat?
>
> In my case, it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_wildcat
> that my wife and I found injured and barely conscious on the highway
> between Riyadh and Khobar - not by a vehicle, but probably by some
> other predator. After having it vetted, cleaned, and a few stitches
> (all the while tranquilized) it became clear that this one was no
> domestic cat (the Bedouin are very fond of cats for many good reasons
> - so seeing cats away from civilization is not uncommon). The vet
> kept it for two days to make sure that there were no complications -
> it drank but did not eat - and then I returned it to where we found
> it. It did not look back.
>
> So, your answer?
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Peter, I do not live in Europe so I am more like to encounter an
American Bobcat. Do you feel your version of a wild cat matters more
than ours? I do not know.

Since you seem to post with a USA addess, is there a reason why you
center on a Europe version of feline? (PA seems USA and if i am wrong,
my apologies).



--

Peter W.
August 3rd 17, 11:43 AM
The point of the exercise is to question your behavior if you were to encounter a true feral cat - and known to be such. But, nonetheless a cat.

Up near our summer house (north-central PA) we are adjacent to a fairly large state game land. There are several walking trails, and during the non-hunting months, we sometimes take the dogs on long rambles on early mornings as we see the most then. One day, we came heard some meowing and thought we came across a lost kitten, or several. Not even a little bit. We walked around for an hour looking, with the dogs on their leashes (they love cats, by the way) That was about eight years ago. Today, there are still cats up there, but we have yet to actually lay eyes on one - but for one fleeting view, that first time. These last couple of years we have stopped these walks during the summer as the deer population has exploded, along with the associated ticks.

This is what I mean by a true feral. These are not, nor will they ever be cute little housepets, and to force them into permanent kittenhood does them no favors. Alley cats, strays, lost cats, all these are fair game for 'rescue', and I have done my share of that. But after perhaps 3 or 4 generations with no human contact, any cat of that nature has no need for humans. We do not have wild domestic cat analogs in North America, so there is no direct comparison. But, by the he same token, would you attempt to domesticate a lynx?

We spent several years living and working in the Middle East, and learned a great deal about cultures and attitudes in the area. And we did venture out into the countryside more than most Westerners, and so experienced some interesting encounters. We learned to drink cardamom coffee in vast quantities, to always carry honey or sugar - just two small things of many.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

cshenk
August 4th 17, 02:33 AM
Peter W. wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> The point of the exercise is to question your behavior if you were to
> encounter a true feral cat - and known to be such. But, nonetheless a
> cat.
>
> Up near our summer house (north-central PA) we are adjacent to a
> fairly large state game land. There are several walking trails, and
> during the non-hunting months, we sometimes take the dogs on long
> rambles on early mornings as we see the most then. One day, we came
> heard some meowing and thought we came across a lost kitten, or
> several. Not even a little bit. We walked around for an hour looking,
> with the dogs on their leashes (they love cats, by the way) That was
> about eight years ago. Today, there are still cats up there, but we
> have yet to actually lay eyes on one - but for one fleeting view,
> that first time. These last couple of years we have stopped these
> walks during the summer as the deer population has exploded, along
> with the associated ticks.
>
> This is what I mean by a true feral. These are not, nor will they
> ever be cute little housepets, and to force them into permanent
> kittenhood does them no favors. Alley cats, strays, lost cats, all
> these are fair game for 'rescue', and I have done my share of that.
> But after perhaps 3 or 4 generations with no human contact, any cat
> of that nature has no need for humans. We do not have wild domestic
> cat analogs in North America, so there is no direct comparison. But,
> by the he same token, would you attempt to domesticate a lynx?
>
> We spent several years living and working in the Middle East, and
> learned a great deal about cultures and attitudes in the area. And we
> did venture out into the countryside more than most Westerners, and
> so experienced some interesting encounters. We learned to drink
> cardamom coffee in vast quantities, to always carry honey or sugar -
> just two small things of many.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

Well Peter, you may be one of those people who uses the term in the
most strict sense based on a specfic area you lived in and if you wish
to do that, that is your right to express.

And yes, I had a bobcat (Lynx related). Named him Bobby and the vet
laughed a lot when he found out I didnt know he was a bobcat as he grew
up.

--