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View Full Version : Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..


Nicole Johnson
July 7th 03, 12:44 AM
Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the newest
love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all 21
of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that I'm
going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out slowly
and ask a LOT of questions!

1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in her
kitten chow?

2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem. Yeah,
it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still gets
stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for baby
wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?

3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but it's
getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch
the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

4. Spaying..what age?

I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
expertise would help!
Thanks,
Momma-Kittenhead

Karen Chuplis
July 7th 03, 01:50 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
Johnson at wrote on 7/6/03 6:44 PM:

> Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the newest
> love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all 21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!
>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in her
> kitten chow?

KMR "Kitten Milk Replacement". Available from vet and pet stores.
>
> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem. Yeah,
> it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still gets
> stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for baby
> wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?

She'll grow out of it, although, you might consider keeping a poop shoot
shaved as she gets older. But, once she figures things out and learns to
groom herself, you'll be fine except for the occassional dingle.

>
> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

Are you prepared for what could happen? Early arthritis, urinating, biting?
Millions of babies are raised everyday with cats with claws and survive just
fine. I did. Your fear is totally unjustified and so is the procedure.
Consider, if you must, or if a problem (highly doubtful) would crop up, Soft
Paws. Getting her used to claw trimming now would make her very easy to keep
trimmed. There is NO need to declaw. That's all there is to that. Have you
even considered these options???
>
> 4. Spaying..what age?
>
Most people do it between 4 and 6 months.
> I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> expertise would help!
> Thanks,
> Momma-Kittenhead
>
>
Really consider your options (THERE **ARE** OPTIONS) to declawing. It is
terribly inhumane. I'd suggest you rehome her before doing it. It's terribly
selfish of you when claws won't be a problem if you just trim regularly.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 7th 03, 01:50 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
Johnson at wrote on 7/6/03 6:44 PM:

> Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the newest
> love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all 21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!
>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in her
> kitten chow?

KMR "Kitten Milk Replacement". Available from vet and pet stores.
>
> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem. Yeah,
> it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still gets
> stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for baby
> wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?

She'll grow out of it, although, you might consider keeping a poop shoot
shaved as she gets older. But, once she figures things out and learns to
groom herself, you'll be fine except for the occassional dingle.

>
> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

Are you prepared for what could happen? Early arthritis, urinating, biting?
Millions of babies are raised everyday with cats with claws and survive just
fine. I did. Your fear is totally unjustified and so is the procedure.
Consider, if you must, or if a problem (highly doubtful) would crop up, Soft
Paws. Getting her used to claw trimming now would make her very easy to keep
trimmed. There is NO need to declaw. That's all there is to that. Have you
even considered these options???
>
> 4. Spaying..what age?
>
Most people do it between 4 and 6 months.
> I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> expertise would help!
> Thanks,
> Momma-Kittenhead
>
>
Really consider your options (THERE **ARE** OPTIONS) to declawing. It is
terribly inhumane. I'd suggest you rehome her before doing it. It's terribly
selfish of you when claws won't be a problem if you just trim regularly.

Karen

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 03:00 AM
"Nicole Johnson" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the
newest
> love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all
21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that
I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out
slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!
>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in
her
> kitten chow?

Milk causes diarrhea only if a cat's lactose-intolerant. Of 4 cats, none of
mine has ever shown a problem w/ milk, so far. (Given to them as small
treats; not a lot at any given time.) Her kitten food should be fine.
There is a product (or two) - KMR (or is it KRM??) - Kitten Milk Replacement
that's available at pet supply stores if you want to try & see if she'd like
her food supplemented.

> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem.
Yeah,
> it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still gets
> stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for
baby
> wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?

I'd say just keep wiping & keep her hair trimmed back there. Eventually
she'll (hopefully) clean herself, although you may have to come to the
rescue now & then - forever after. <g>

> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but
it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to
scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

I don't know.

> 4. Spaying..what age?

Two months at the earliest, up to about 5 months. That's probably early
enough to catch her before her first heat.

> I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> expertise would help!

Good luck, & may she have a long life! :-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon


> Thanks,
> Momma-Kittenhead
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 03:00 AM
"Nicole Johnson" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the
newest
> love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all
21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that
I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out
slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!
>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in
her
> kitten chow?

Milk causes diarrhea only if a cat's lactose-intolerant. Of 4 cats, none of
mine has ever shown a problem w/ milk, so far. (Given to them as small
treats; not a lot at any given time.) Her kitten food should be fine.
There is a product (or two) - KMR (or is it KRM??) - Kitten Milk Replacement
that's available at pet supply stores if you want to try & see if she'd like
her food supplemented.

> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem.
Yeah,
> it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still gets
> stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for
baby
> wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?

I'd say just keep wiping & keep her hair trimmed back there. Eventually
she'll (hopefully) clean herself, although you may have to come to the
rescue now & then - forever after. <g>

> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but
it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to
scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

I don't know.

> 4. Spaying..what age?

Two months at the earliest, up to about 5 months. That's probably early
enough to catch her before her first heat.

> I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> expertise would help!

Good luck, & may she have a long life! :-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon


> Thanks,
> Momma-Kittenhead
>
>

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:04 AM
In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery, nail
clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
"if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."
It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY controversial
topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
Momma-Kittenhead


"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article k.net, Nicole
> Johnson at wrote on 7/6/03 6:44 PM:
>
> > Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the
newest
> > love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In
all 21
> > of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4
week
> > old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> > While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that
I'm
> > going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out
slowly
> > and ask a LOT of questions!
> >
> > 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> > special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in
her
> > kitten chow?
>
> KMR "Kitten Milk Replacement". Available from vet and pet stores.
> >
> > 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem.
Yeah,
> > it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still
gets
> > stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for
baby
> > wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> > doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?
>
> She'll grow out of it, although, you might consider keeping a poop shoot
> shaved as she gets older. But, once she figures things out and learns to
> groom herself, you'll be fine except for the occassional dingle.
>
> >
> > 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but
it's
> > getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to
scratch
> > the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?
>
> Are you prepared for what could happen? Early arthritis, urinating,
biting?
> Millions of babies are raised everyday with cats with claws and survive
just
> fine. I did. Your fear is totally unjustified and so is the procedure.
> Consider, if you must, or if a problem (highly doubtful) would crop up,
Soft
> Paws. Getting her used to claw trimming now would make her very easy to
keep
> trimmed. There is NO need to declaw. That's all there is to that. Have you
> even considered these options???
> >
> > 4. Spaying..what age?
> >
> Most people do it between 4 and 6 months.
> > I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> > expertise would help!
> > Thanks,
> > Momma-Kittenhead
> >
> >
> Really consider your options (THERE **ARE** OPTIONS) to declawing. It is
> terribly inhumane. I'd suggest you rehome her before doing it. It's
terribly
> selfish of you when claws won't be a problem if you just trim regularly.
>
> Karen
>
>

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:04 AM
In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery, nail
clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
"if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."
It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY controversial
topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
Momma-Kittenhead


"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article k.net, Nicole
> Johnson at wrote on 7/6/03 6:44 PM:
>
> > Hi all! Yes, I have converted. I still love my great dane, but the
newest
> > love of my life (Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In
all 21
> > of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4
week
> > old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> > While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that
I'm
> > going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out
slowly
> > and ask a LOT of questions!
> >
> > 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> > special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in
her
> > kitten chow?
>
> KMR "Kitten Milk Replacement". Available from vet and pet stores.
> >
> > 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem.
Yeah,
> > it sticks. I've trimmed the hair down around the "area" but it still
gets
> > stuck. I've been using baby wipes after she's gone (god, thank you for
baby
> > wipes) and they work well...takes away the smell and gets ride of the
> > doodie....but is there any way to keep from having to wipe her?
>
> She'll grow out of it, although, you might consider keeping a poop shoot
> shaved as she gets older. But, once she figures things out and learns to
> groom herself, you'll be fine except for the occassional dingle.
>
> >
> > 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but
it's
> > getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to
scratch
> > the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?
>
> Are you prepared for what could happen? Early arthritis, urinating,
biting?
> Millions of babies are raised everyday with cats with claws and survive
just
> fine. I did. Your fear is totally unjustified and so is the procedure.
> Consider, if you must, or if a problem (highly doubtful) would crop up,
Soft
> Paws. Getting her used to claw trimming now would make her very easy to
keep
> trimmed. There is NO need to declaw. That's all there is to that. Have you
> even considered these options???
> >
> > 4. Spaying..what age?
> >
> Most people do it between 4 and 6 months.
> > I have more questions, but I'll let ya'll get to these!! Everyone's
> > expertise would help!
> > Thanks,
> > Momma-Kittenhead
> >
> >
> Really consider your options (THERE **ARE** OPTIONS) to declawing. It is
> terribly inhumane. I'd suggest you rehome her before doing it. It's
terribly
> selfish of you when claws won't be a problem if you just trim regularly.
>
> Karen
>
>

Priscilla Ballou
July 7th 03, 04:11 AM
In article k.net>,
"Nicole" > wrote:

> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery, nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."

It's illegal in many countries. Animal cruelty.

> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
> we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY controversial
> topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> Momma-Kittenhead

Oh, please don't. I don't want to hear about how you're mutilating your
poor kitten. Don't you understand that you're cutting off its toes?
That it's likely it'll have trouble balancing? It'll be in pain,
possibly for the rest of its life?

How anyone could do that to a creature they claim to love is beyond me,
but then human parents main and mutilate their children. We have laws
to take their children away from them. I'm just sorry no-one can take
that poor kitten away from you before you do this to it.

Priscilla
--
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
(thanks be to topfive.com)

Priscilla Ballou
July 7th 03, 04:11 AM
In article k.net>,
"Nicole" > wrote:

> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery, nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."

It's illegal in many countries. Animal cruelty.

> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
> we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY controversial
> topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> Momma-Kittenhead

Oh, please don't. I don't want to hear about how you're mutilating your
poor kitten. Don't you understand that you're cutting off its toes?
That it's likely it'll have trouble balancing? It'll be in pain,
possibly for the rest of its life?

How anyone could do that to a creature they claim to love is beyond me,
but then human parents main and mutilate their children. We have laws
to take their children away from them. I'm just sorry no-one can take
that poor kitten away from you before you do this to it.

Priscilla
--
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
(thanks be to topfive.com)

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 04:15 AM
"Nicole" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."
> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
> we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY
controversial
> topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> Momma-Kittenhead

Uh-oh... though thinking yourself prepared, you have no *idea* the can of
worms you've probably opened yourself up to w/ this one, I'm afraid. The
declawing issue has got to be the biggest source of arguments & flame wars
on cat ngs, w/ the indoor-outdoor issue probably in 2nd place. I'm not
pro-declaw, but otoh I'm not vehemently against it, either. Two of my cats
have been front-declaws (one was my decision back in '86, & the other came
that way when I adopted her in '93) - w/ no resultant problems that I can
tell. Although, I assume as w/ any surgery, there must *sometimes* be
adverse after-effects.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 04:15 AM
"Nicole" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."
> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...so
> we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY
controversial
> topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> Momma-Kittenhead

Uh-oh... though thinking yourself prepared, you have no *idea* the can of
worms you've probably opened yourself up to w/ this one, I'm afraid. The
declawing issue has got to be the biggest source of arguments & flame wars
on cat ngs, w/ the indoor-outdoor issue probably in 2nd place. I'm not
pro-declaw, but otoh I'm not vehemently against it, either. Two of my cats
have been front-declaws (one was my decision back in '86, & the other came
that way when I adopted her in '93) - w/ no resultant problems that I can
tell. Although, I assume as w/ any surgery, there must *sometimes* be
adverse after-effects.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Purplecat
July 7th 03, 04:19 AM
"Nicole" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."

Actually, in many countries no vet will...

Do look into this a *lot* before you decide to do it. It's such a
controversial procedure that many countries (incl UK, Australia and most of
Europe) in the world have declared it illegal or "extremely inhumane" and
wont perform the procedure except in extreme *medical* situations.
http://www.declawing.com/list.html

Indeed, it's taken for granted to such a degree in Aus that declawing is
inhumane (and outright illegal in a number of states) that I didn't even
realise it was still a regular procedure anywhere else in the world. There
are several million pet cats in Australia. Their owners have all coped just
fine with their kitty's claws. Give it a go. :)

Purplecat

PS If you're interested in getting a number of different opinions, perhaps
e-mail vets from other countries and see what they say. I know there are a
number of vets online that will happily answer questions. The impression I
get is that a lot of countries/international vet associations feel the US is
behind the times on the declawing issue...

Purplecat
July 7th 03, 04:19 AM
"Nicole" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they even
> come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's an
> only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."

Actually, in many countries no vet will...

Do look into this a *lot* before you decide to do it. It's such a
controversial procedure that many countries (incl UK, Australia and most of
Europe) in the world have declared it illegal or "extremely inhumane" and
wont perform the procedure except in extreme *medical* situations.
http://www.declawing.com/list.html

Indeed, it's taken for granted to such a degree in Aus that declawing is
inhumane (and outright illegal in a number of states) that I didn't even
realise it was still a regular procedure anywhere else in the world. There
are several million pet cats in Australia. Their owners have all coped just
fine with their kitty's claws. Give it a go. :)

Purplecat

PS If you're interested in getting a number of different opinions, perhaps
e-mail vets from other countries and see what they say. I know there are a
number of vets online that will happily answer questions. The impression I
get is that a lot of countries/international vet associations feel the US is
behind the times on the declawing issue...

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:39 AM
Yes, I'm aware that it is illegal in several countries....as a matter of
fact, I bet I could name you several of the countries (such as those on
Great britian, Spain, portgual, brazil, Italy for sure, england, australia).
You know, I bet there are other people on here who aren't against declawing,
but I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
"yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw". When I
got Hailey I wasn't doing a jig to the thought of declawing her. I didn't
look at her and smile at the thought of taking off the nails. But I feel
confident in the trained PROFESSIONAL vets., I feel confident enough in
research and the experience of others that I'm doing the right thing.
With that said, I am basically saying, if you don't want to answer my
questions or hear about my kitty, then don't read my posts. Instead of
writing posts intended only to show your "passion" about declawation and to
stir up trouble, perhaps you could channel that energy into something less
upsetting like, grooming your cat or responding to someone else's post who
is anti-declawing.

Thanks to those who responded and gave me their advice! :)



"Priscilla Ballou" > wrote in message
...
> In article k.net>,
> "Nicole" > wrote:
>
> > In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they
even
> > come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that
starts
> > with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> > clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> > didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> > "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's
an
> > only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."
>
> It's illegal in many countries. Animal cruelty.
>
> > It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a
procedure...so
> > we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY
controversial
> > topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> > Momma-Kittenhead
>
> Oh, please don't. I don't want to hear about how you're mutilating your
> poor kitten. Don't you understand that you're cutting off its toes?
> That it's likely it'll have trouble balancing? It'll be in pain,
> possibly for the rest of its life?
>
> How anyone could do that to a creature they claim to love is beyond me,
> but then human parents main and mutilate their children. We have laws
> to take their children away from them. I'm just sorry no-one can take
> that poor kitten away from you before you do this to it.
>
> Priscilla
> --
> Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
> minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
> (thanks be to topfive.com)
>

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:39 AM
Yes, I'm aware that it is illegal in several countries....as a matter of
fact, I bet I could name you several of the countries (such as those on
Great britian, Spain, portgual, brazil, Italy for sure, england, australia).
You know, I bet there are other people on here who aren't against declawing,
but I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
"yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw". When I
got Hailey I wasn't doing a jig to the thought of declawing her. I didn't
look at her and smile at the thought of taking off the nails. But I feel
confident in the trained PROFESSIONAL vets., I feel confident enough in
research and the experience of others that I'm doing the right thing.
With that said, I am basically saying, if you don't want to answer my
questions or hear about my kitty, then don't read my posts. Instead of
writing posts intended only to show your "passion" about declawation and to
stir up trouble, perhaps you could channel that energy into something less
upsetting like, grooming your cat or responding to someone else's post who
is anti-declawing.

Thanks to those who responded and gave me their advice! :)



"Priscilla Ballou" > wrote in message
...
> In article k.net>,
> "Nicole" > wrote:
>
> > In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they
even
> > come in cute colors!!), training, sprays, the other procedure that
starts
> > with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something), laser surgery,
nail
> > clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> > didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> > "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's
an
> > only child). If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any
animal."
>
> It's illegal in many countries. Animal cruelty.
>
> > It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a
procedure...so
> > we're going to go through with it. I realize that it's a VERY
controversial
> > topic, but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> > Momma-Kittenhead
>
> Oh, please don't. I don't want to hear about how you're mutilating your
> poor kitten. Don't you understand that you're cutting off its toes?
> That it's likely it'll have trouble balancing? It'll be in pain,
> possibly for the rest of its life?
>
> How anyone could do that to a creature they claim to love is beyond me,
> but then human parents main and mutilate their children. We have laws
> to take their children away from them. I'm just sorry no-one can take
> that poor kitten away from you before you do this to it.
>
> Priscilla
> --
> Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
> minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
> (thanks be to topfive.com)
>

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:54 AM
If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
your eating habits...such as, killing an animal simply so that YOU can
survive. Part of me wants to leave this argument alone but the other part
feels that I should defend the other point of view. I feel like a Jew being
Bible Thumped by a baptist!


"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Nicole ) said,
> > In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they
even
> > come in cute colors!!),
>
> Okay, and why have you rejected SoftPaws?
>
> > training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> > with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something),
>
> Tendonectomy. It's like cutting the tendon that controls the first
> joint in your fingers. Imagine your fingers with floppy tips and you
> have a rough idea of what a tendonectomy does.
>
> > laser surgery,
>
> Which is simply declawing using a laser instead of the usual device,
> which pretty much looks like an industrial strength nail cutter, but
> cuts off the cat's first joint instead of just the nail.
>
> > nail
> > clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> > didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> > "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's
an
> > only child).
>
> So that justifies mutilating her?
>
> > If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."
>
> Now, *that* is a crock. Ask any veterinarian if they think declawing
> is humane. 99% of them will tell you that it is not, but that they do
> it because their clients who request it would get rid of the cat if
> the vet didn't declaw.
>
> > It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
>
> How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
> of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
> cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
> that it was "humane"?
>
> > so
> > we're going to go through with it.
>
> WHY??? Why are you so willing to declaw but so unwilling to try the
> other methods????
>
> > I realize that it's a VERY controversial
> > topic,
>
> Yes, because it is inhumane. It is cruel. It is barbaric. There is a
> reason that it is outlawed in many countries outside the United
> States, and there is a reason that there is a push for similar
> legislation in the United States.
>
> > but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> > Momma-Kittenhead
>
> Well, frankly, every bit of love that you claim to feel for your new
> kitten just became suspect to me. Would you cut off your baby's
> fingers at the first joint so that the baby wouldn't accidentally
> scratch you with his/her nail?
>
> You have not given a single reason *why* you feel that you have to
> declaw your cat instead of trying something humane.
>
> Laura
>
> --
> Don't try to make children grow up to be like you, or they may do it.
> -Russell Baker
>

Nicole
July 7th 03, 04:54 AM
If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
your eating habits...such as, killing an animal simply so that YOU can
survive. Part of me wants to leave this argument alone but the other part
feels that I should defend the other point of view. I feel like a Jew being
Bible Thumped by a baptist!


"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Nicole ) said,
> > In response - Yes, I've looked at the alternatives. Soft Paws (they
even
> > come in cute colors!!),
>
> Okay, and why have you rejected SoftPaws?
>
> > training, sprays, the other procedure that starts
> > with a T that I can't spell (tendenoniton or something),
>
> Tendonectomy. It's like cutting the tendon that controls the first
> joint in your fingers. Imagine your fingers with floppy tips and you
> have a rough idea of what a tendonectomy does.
>
> > laser surgery,
>
> Which is simply declawing using a laser instead of the usual device,
> which pretty much looks like an industrial strength nail cutter, but
> cuts off the cat's first joint instead of just the nail.
>
> > nail
> > clipping, living with it.....so I asked a breeder in the area, because I
> > didn't want to do something that would hurt her....she told me this...
> > "if Hailey is an inside cat, she doesn't need to protect herself (she's
an
> > only child).
>
> So that justifies mutilating her?
>
> > If declawing was so inhumane, no vet would declaw any animal."
>
> Now, *that* is a crock. Ask any veterinarian if they think declawing
> is humane. 99% of them will tell you that it is not, but that they do
> it because their clients who request it would get rid of the cat if
> the vet didn't declaw.
>
> > It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
>
> How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
> of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
> cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
> that it was "humane"?
>
> > so
> > we're going to go through with it.
>
> WHY??? Why are you so willing to declaw but so unwilling to try the
> other methods????
>
> > I realize that it's a VERY controversial
> > topic,
>
> Yes, because it is inhumane. It is cruel. It is barbaric. There is a
> reason that it is outlawed in many countries outside the United
> States, and there is a reason that there is a push for similar
> legislation in the United States.
>
> > but I appreciate your advice! :) I'll keep ya posted!
> > Momma-Kittenhead
>
> Well, frankly, every bit of love that you claim to feel for your new
> kitten just became suspect to me. Would you cut off your baby's
> fingers at the first joint so that the baby wouldn't accidentally
> scratch you with his/her nail?
>
> You have not given a single reason *why* you feel that you have to
> declaw your cat instead of trying something humane.
>
> Laura
>
> --
> Don't try to make children grow up to be like you, or they may do it.
> -Russell Baker
>

Karen Chuplis
July 7th 03, 05:42 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
at wrote on 7/6/03 10:39 PM:

> Yes, I'm aware that it is illegal in several countries....as a matter of
> fact, I bet I could name you several of the countries (such as those on
> Great britian, Spain, portgual, brazil, Italy for sure, england, australia).
> You know, I bet there are other people on here who aren't against declawing,
> but I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
> "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw". When I
> got Hailey I wasn't doing a jig to the thought of declawing her. I didn't
> look at her and smile at the thought of taking off the nails.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You claim to have thought this through but that statement shows your
ignorance or denial. It is AMPUTATING the toe to the FIRST JOINT. Not
"taking off the nails."



>But I feel
> confident in the trained PROFESSIONAL vets., I feel confident enough in
> research and the experience of others that I'm doing the right thing.
> With that said, I am basically saying, if you don't want to answer my
> questions or hear about my kitty, then don't read my posts. Instead of
> writing posts intended only to show your "passion" about declawation and to
> stir up trouble, perhaps you could channel that energy into something less
> upsetting like, grooming your cat or responding to someone else's post who
> is anti-declawing.

If you ask for advice in a cat group, this is going to come up.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 7th 03, 05:42 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
at wrote on 7/6/03 10:39 PM:

> Yes, I'm aware that it is illegal in several countries....as a matter of
> fact, I bet I could name you several of the countries (such as those on
> Great britian, Spain, portgual, brazil, Italy for sure, england, australia).
> You know, I bet there are other people on here who aren't against declawing,
> but I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
> "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw". When I
> got Hailey I wasn't doing a jig to the thought of declawing her. I didn't
> look at her and smile at the thought of taking off the nails.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You claim to have thought this through but that statement shows your
ignorance or denial. It is AMPUTATING the toe to the FIRST JOINT. Not
"taking off the nails."



>But I feel
> confident in the trained PROFESSIONAL vets., I feel confident enough in
> research and the experience of others that I'm doing the right thing.
> With that said, I am basically saying, if you don't want to answer my
> questions or hear about my kitty, then don't read my posts. Instead of
> writing posts intended only to show your "passion" about declawation and to
> stir up trouble, perhaps you could channel that energy into something less
> upsetting like, grooming your cat or responding to someone else's post who
> is anti-declawing.

If you ask for advice in a cat group, this is going to come up.

Karen

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 06:00 AM
"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Sun, 6 Jul 2003 23:15:11 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
> > Two of my cats
> > have been front-declaws (one was my decision back in '86, & the other
came
> > that way when I adopted her in '93) - w/ no resultant problems that I
can
> > tell. Although, I assume as w/ any surgery, there must *sometimes* be
> > adverse after-effects.
> >
> >
> Alex, my aforementioned biter, came to me declawed. Guess how he
> compensates for his lack of claws?
>
> Laura

Otoh, my biter cat is Mr. Fully-Clawed (aka Herrie).

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 7th 03, 06:00 AM
"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Sun, 6 Jul 2003 23:15:11 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
> > Two of my cats
> > have been front-declaws (one was my decision back in '86, & the other
came
> > that way when I adopted her in '93) - w/ no resultant problems that I
can
> > tell. Although, I assume as w/ any surgery, there must *sometimes* be
> > adverse after-effects.
> >
> >
> Alex, my aforementioned biter, came to me declawed. Guess how he
> compensates for his lack of claws?
>
> Laura

Otoh, my biter cat is Mr. Fully-Clawed (aka Herrie).

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Arjun Ray
July 7th 03, 07:12 PM
In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:

| I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
| "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw".

Do you have the balls to say:

"Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
innocent kitten."

Well, do you have the balls?

Arjun Ray
July 7th 03, 07:12 PM
In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:

| I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
| "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw".

Do you have the balls to say:

"Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
innocent kitten."

Well, do you have the balls?

Nicole
July 8th 03, 12:27 AM
I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which were
declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly lived to
be 17 years old.

Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across by
BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or convince me
to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead you've
made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
have given.
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In k.net>, "Nicole"
> > wrote:
>
> | I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
> | "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw".
>
> Do you have the balls to say:
>
> "Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
> bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
> unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
> of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
> painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
> effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
> I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
> wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
> whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
> live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
> ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
> innocent kitten."
>
> Well, do you have the balls?
>

Nicole
July 8th 03, 12:27 AM
I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which were
declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly lived to
be 17 years old.

Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across by
BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or convince me
to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead you've
made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
have given.
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In k.net>, "Nicole"
> > wrote:
>
> | I think I'm probably one of the only ones with the balls enough to say
> | "yeah, I've weighed the alternatives and have decided to declaw".
>
> Do you have the balls to say:
>
> "Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
> bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
> unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
> of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
> painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
> effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
> I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
> wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
> whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
> live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
> ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
> innocent kitten."
>
> Well, do you have the balls?
>

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 12:38 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:

> I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which were
> declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly lived to
> be 17 years old.
>
> Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across by
> BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or convince me
> to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead you've
> made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
> have given.

There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 12:38 AM
in article k.net, Nicole
at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:

> I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which were
> declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly lived to
> be 17 years old.
>
> Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across by
> BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or convince me
> to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead you've
> made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
> have given.

There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.

Karen

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 01:05 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article k.net, Nicole
> at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:
>
> > I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which
were
> > declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly
lived to
> > be 17 years old.
> >
> > Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
by
> > BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or
convince me
> > to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead
you've
> > made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
> > have given.
>
> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.
>
> Karen

Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 01:05 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article k.net, Nicole
> at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:
>
> > I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which
were
> > declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly
lived to
> > be 17 years old.
> >
> > Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
by
> > BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or
convince me
> > to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead
you've
> > made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
> > have given.
>
> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.
>
> Karen

Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 01:38 AM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:

| All I want to know is *why* she insists upon declawing her cat,

Nicole let the real reason slip. "She's going to scratch the babies".
IOW, she's *scared* of a cat with claws.

| and *why* she refuses to consider the other options.

Everything else is just rationalization.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 01:38 AM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:

| All I want to know is *why* she insists upon declawing her cat,

Nicole let the real reason slip. "She's going to scratch the babies".
IOW, she's *scared* of a cat with claws.

| and *why* she refuses to consider the other options.

Everything else is just rationalization.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 01:54 AM
[De-jeopardied]

In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> Do you have the balls to say:
|>
|> "Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
|> bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
|> unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
|> of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
|> painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
|> effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
|> I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
|> wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
|> whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
|> live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
|> ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
|> innocent kitten."
|>
|> Well, do you have the balls?

| I do have the balls to say

Wrong answer. You've been given the chance the show that you have the
balls to acknowledge FACTS. Here you are changing the subject again.

| that my husband has had cats before which were declawed and they were
| in great health.

Then ask your husband to have the balls on your behalf and post an
acknowledgement of the FACTS.

| Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
| by BASHING and being ignorant??

You're the one claiming to have the balls to acknowledge FACTS.

Put up or shut up.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 01:54 AM
[De-jeopardied]

In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
| ...

|> Do you have the balls to say:
|>
|> "Declawing is the amputation of the toe bones that cats walk on. The
|> bone has to come off because the claw grows out of it. The result is an
|> unnatural posture as the cat turns its wrists to distribute the pressure
|> of walking over the other bones in its paws. The procedure is reliably
|> painful enough that declaw post-ops are routinely used to study the
|> effectiveness of painkilling medications and pain treatment protocols.
|> I will ignore the evidence that declawing can make a biter or couch
|> wetter out of my cat. There is no medical or health benefit to the cat
|> whatsoever but still I will have this done, and I am very glad that I
|> live somewhere where neither the prevailing laws nor the professional
|> ethics of veterinarians stand in the way of my desire to mutilate an
|> innocent kitten."
|>
|> Well, do you have the balls?

| I do have the balls to say

Wrong answer. You've been given the chance the show that you have the
balls to acknowledge FACTS. Here you are changing the subject again.

| that my husband has had cats before which were declawed and they were
| in great health.

Then ask your husband to have the balls on your behalf and post an
acknowledgement of the FACTS.

| Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
| by BASHING and being ignorant??

You're the one claiming to have the balls to acknowledge FACTS.

Put up or shut up.

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 03:37 AM
Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
other person's opinions.

Btw - I top-posted, on purpose, just to give you the chance to insult me for
my lack of Usenet protocol & for using OE. :-p

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, Laura R.
> > wrote:
>
> | Nobody's advice has been discredited. However, your claimed concern
> | for the welfare of your cat has been. Not because you consider
> | declawing, but because you refuse to consider any other option or
> | provide reason as to why you've dismissed other options.
>
> Because she's scrounging for excuses. This will consist of "favorable"
> opinions. She has no interest in facts, or advice she doesn't want to
> hear. Say the "wrong" thing and she'll report you! Check these out (I
> have no qualms posting the email of animal abusers):
>
> ==[1]==
> Received: by bsd4.nyct.net (mbox aray)
> (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13)
> Mon Jul 7 20:19:17 2003)
> X-From_: Mon Jul 7 19:57:15 2003
> Return-Path: >
> Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84])
> by bsd4.nyct.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h67NvCZv013277
> for >; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
> (envelope-from )
> Received: from dialup-152-158.tnnas2.usit.net
> ([216.80.152.158] helo=D5F77W21)
> by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
> id 19Zfqu-0002Wk-00
> for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:57:06 -0700
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> From: "Nicole Johnson" >
> To: >
> References: k.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:56:45 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
>
> Do you know you know what I think is really hilarious - instead of
> trying to
> INFORM me on what you think, you only plan to try to offend and not AID.
> When someone asks for help, a civilized person would offer help, not
> insults.
>
> Get a life.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arjun Ray" >
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
>
>
> > In k.net>, "Nicole
> > Johnson" > wrote:
> >
> > | 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it,
> >
> > Do you think it's appropriate to hate ignorant and lazy people?
> >
> > | but it's getting done. She's an indoor cat
> >
> > Irrelevant.
> >
> > | and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch the babies.
> >
> > How did you, as someone who has *no* experience with cats, arrive at the
> > conclusion that "she's going to scratch the babies"?
> >
> > Made your mind up in advance, didn't you?
> >
> > | What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?
> >
> > Depends on where you are. In any civilized location, vets recommend
> > against the procedure. if you're in some redneck backwoods, the vet may
> > do it the moment you walk in the door.
> >
> > | I have more questions,
> >
> > Please stop.
> >
> > Your best course of action is to visit your local shelter, and trade in
> > the kitten you found for a declawed cat. Don't worry, there will be
> > plenty of those available, thanks to people just as ignorant as you.
> > But this way, you don't have to mutilate *another* cat. If you insist
> > on having a cat and abusing a cat, you might as well get a cat that has
> > been abused already.
> >
> > That's a win/win for everyone, including the kitten, who no will have
> > the chance to find a loving home.
> >
> >
> ==[2]==
> Received: by bsd4.nyct.net (mbox aray)
> (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13)
> Mon Jul 7 21:49:22 2003)
> X-From_: Mon Jul 7 21:46:14 2003
> Return-Path: >
> Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74])
> by bsd4.nyct.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h681kEZv046281
> for >; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:46:14 -0400 (EDT)
> (envelope-from )
> Received: from dialup-159-244.tnmem2.usit.net
> ([216.80.159.244] helo=D5F77W21)
> by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
> id 19ZhYW-000070-00
> for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:46:09 -0700
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> From: "Nicole Johnson" >
> To: "Arjun Ray" >
> References: k.net>
> >
> <[email protected]>
> >
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:46:11 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
>
> I have reported you to my mail service as a hate mail sender. Please
> refrain from ever mailing me again.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arjun Ray" >
> To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
>
>
> > "Nicole Johnson" > wrote:
> >
> > | Do you know you know what I think is really hilarious
> >
> > I can't take what you "think" seriously until you demonstrate an at
least
> > minimal ability to think.
> >
> > You could have addressed the information provided. Instead, you elected
> > to change the subject, with silly talk of bible thumpers persecuting
Jews
> > and whatnot.
> >
> > | instead of trying to INFORM me on what you think,
> >
> > What I think is irrelevant. What I know, and you demonstrably don't,
are
> > the facts of declawing.
> >
> > *You* are the one to have talked about having balls. Well, do you have
> > the balls to acknowledge facts?
> >
> > | you only plan to try to offend and not AID.
> >
> > I already gave you my advice. Trade in the kitten for an already
declawed
> > cat. The shelter will have the knowledge and resources to care for a
> > pre-weaned kitten (which includes socialization with other cats to learn
> > basic things such as proper grooming and claw control), and will be
happy
> > to adopt an otherwise unadoptable cat to you.
> >
> > | When someone asks for help, a civilized person would offer help, not
> > | insults.
> >
> > "Put up or shut up" is an insult?
> >
> > | Get a life.
> >
> > Get a clue.
> >
> >
> > :ar
> >
> > --
> > Netiquette Pointers:
> > http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/tutorial_1999-12.shtml
> > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
> > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 03:37 AM
Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
other person's opinions.

Btw - I top-posted, on purpose, just to give you the chance to insult me for
my lack of Usenet protocol & for using OE. :-p

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, Laura R.
> > wrote:
>
> | Nobody's advice has been discredited. However, your claimed concern
> | for the welfare of your cat has been. Not because you consider
> | declawing, but because you refuse to consider any other option or
> | provide reason as to why you've dismissed other options.
>
> Because she's scrounging for excuses. This will consist of "favorable"
> opinions. She has no interest in facts, or advice she doesn't want to
> hear. Say the "wrong" thing and she'll report you! Check these out (I
> have no qualms posting the email of animal abusers):
>
> ==[1]==
> Received: by bsd4.nyct.net (mbox aray)
> (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13)
> Mon Jul 7 20:19:17 2003)
> X-From_: Mon Jul 7 19:57:15 2003
> Return-Path: >
> Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84])
> by bsd4.nyct.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h67NvCZv013277
> for >; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
> (envelope-from )
> Received: from dialup-152-158.tnnas2.usit.net
> ([216.80.152.158] helo=D5F77W21)
> by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
> id 19Zfqu-0002Wk-00
> for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:57:06 -0700
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> From: "Nicole Johnson" >
> To: >
> References: k.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:56:45 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
>
> Do you know you know what I think is really hilarious - instead of
> trying to
> INFORM me on what you think, you only plan to try to offend and not AID.
> When someone asks for help, a civilized person would offer help, not
> insults.
>
> Get a life.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arjun Ray" >
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
>
>
> > In k.net>, "Nicole
> > Johnson" > wrote:
> >
> > | 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it,
> >
> > Do you think it's appropriate to hate ignorant and lazy people?
> >
> > | but it's getting done. She's an indoor cat
> >
> > Irrelevant.
> >
> > | and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch the babies.
> >
> > How did you, as someone who has *no* experience with cats, arrive at the
> > conclusion that "she's going to scratch the babies"?
> >
> > Made your mind up in advance, didn't you?
> >
> > | What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?
> >
> > Depends on where you are. In any civilized location, vets recommend
> > against the procedure. if you're in some redneck backwoods, the vet may
> > do it the moment you walk in the door.
> >
> > | I have more questions,
> >
> > Please stop.
> >
> > Your best course of action is to visit your local shelter, and trade in
> > the kitten you found for a declawed cat. Don't worry, there will be
> > plenty of those available, thanks to people just as ignorant as you.
> > But this way, you don't have to mutilate *another* cat. If you insist
> > on having a cat and abusing a cat, you might as well get a cat that has
> > been abused already.
> >
> > That's a win/win for everyone, including the kitten, who no will have
> > the chance to find a loving home.
> >
> >
> ==[2]==
> Received: by bsd4.nyct.net (mbox aray)
> (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13)
> Mon Jul 7 21:49:22 2003)
> X-From_: Mon Jul 7 21:46:14 2003
> Return-Path: >
> Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74])
> by bsd4.nyct.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h681kEZv046281
> for >; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:46:14 -0400 (EDT)
> (envelope-from )
> Received: from dialup-159-244.tnmem2.usit.net
> ([216.80.159.244] helo=D5F77W21)
> by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
> id 19ZhYW-000070-00
> for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:46:09 -0700
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> From: "Nicole Johnson" >
> To: "Arjun Ray" >
> References: k.net>
> >
> <[email protected]>
> >
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:46:11 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
>
> I have reported you to my mail service as a hate mail sender. Please
> refrain from ever mailing me again.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arjun Ray" >
> To: "Nicole Johnson" >
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..
>
>
> > "Nicole Johnson" > wrote:
> >
> > | Do you know you know what I think is really hilarious
> >
> > I can't take what you "think" seriously until you demonstrate an at
least
> > minimal ability to think.
> >
> > You could have addressed the information provided. Instead, you elected
> > to change the subject, with silly talk of bible thumpers persecuting
Jews
> > and whatnot.
> >
> > | instead of trying to INFORM me on what you think,
> >
> > What I think is irrelevant. What I know, and you demonstrably don't,
are
> > the facts of declawing.
> >
> > *You* are the one to have talked about having balls. Well, do you have
> > the balls to acknowledge facts?
> >
> > | you only plan to try to offend and not AID.
> >
> > I already gave you my advice. Trade in the kitten for an already
declawed
> > cat. The shelter will have the knowledge and resources to care for a
> > pre-weaned kitten (which includes socialization with other cats to learn
> > basic things such as proper grooming and claw control), and will be
happy
> > to adopt an otherwise unadoptable cat to you.
> >
> > | When someone asks for help, a civilized person would offer help, not
> > | insults.
> >
> > "Put up or shut up" is an insult?
> >
> > | Get a life.
> >
> > Get a clue.
> >
> >
> > :ar
> >
> > --
> > Netiquette Pointers:
> > http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/tutorial_1999-12.shtml
> > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
> > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 03:50 AM
"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
> > Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/
the
> > other person's opinions.
> >
> Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
> s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
> not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
> that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
> Nicole did.
>
> Laura

I read the whole post, & no, I don't agree w/ her decision to do the abuse
report, although I've found him to be, in truth, quite obnoxious. AR
*could've* made known her actions, w/out actually posting her PEM.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 8th 03, 03:50 AM
"Laura R." > wrote in message
.net...
> circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
> > Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/
the
> > other person's opinions.
> >
> Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
> s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
> not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
> that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
> Nicole did.
>
> Laura

I read the whole post, & no, I don't agree w/ her decision to do the abuse
report, although I've found him to be, in truth, quite obnoxious. AR
*could've* made known her actions, w/out actually posting her PEM.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 04:07 AM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:
| circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| Cathy Friedmann ) said,

|> Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude,

Yep.

|> no matter your gripe w/ the other person's opinions.

She's the one who emailed me first. When I replied, she called it "hate
mail". Well, now she can know that she won't be receiving any more mail
from me.

| Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
| s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them.

That part was hilarious.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 04:07 AM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:
| circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| Cathy Friedmann ) said,

|> Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude,

Yep.

|> no matter your gripe w/ the other person's opinions.

She's the one who emailed me first. When I replied, she called it "hate
mail". Well, now she can know that she won't be receiving any more mail
from me.

| Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
| s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them.

That part was hilarious.

k
July 8th 03, 04:23 AM
(Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all 21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!

Natural to be stressed when you aren't familiar with an
animal. Natural for the kitten to treat you like "mom".
I've got a 12 year old that still thinks I'm her mom.
No point in trying to tell her differently now...
Probably yours will outgrow it. 4 weeks is WAY too
young to be away from mom. Generally they don't leave
mom till about 10 weeks, so you are going to have to
be mom for now.

>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in her
> kitten chow?

Besides the kitten replacement formula that you can get
at vets, or feed supply stores, goats milk is very good
for kittens. Closest to its mom's nutrient-wise. Some
grocery stores have it in quarts with regular milk.
Some have it in cans. Call around.




> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem. Yeah,
> it sticks.


Shaving the rear area is the way to go.
So your cat looks a bit like a baboon.
This one is young, too young to be expected to
be able to take care of herself. Shaving lasts
for months. Easiest on the person and the cat.
Takes the vet two or three minutes to accomplish.

> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

Perhaps it is your unfamiliarity with cats that leads
you to think this is necessary. I've got six, and from
baby days to age 12, they've never scratched me. Ok,
a rare time jumping off my lap I got a scratch on a bare
leg, but so what. You definitely are underestimating
the "biting problem" -- that declawed cats frequently
become very! hard biters, and can't be controlled.
Teach kids and kitten to play nice with each other.
Simple.

As far as breeder's comments.
I would never bother to ask a "breeder".
As with the one you asked, too often these so-called
breeders are out in left field with the info they give out.
And that one vet doesn't care about it means nothing.
Just because someone is a vet, doesn't mean they are a good
vet. And some vets just are detached.

Having had six, I would never declaw a cat.
There's no need in the world.







> 4. Spaying..what age?

They are doing it at just a few weeks this age.
I'd definitely plan to make sure it was done
by 6 months. Yours is young, and has enough to
adjust to. Let it grow for a few months.

k
July 8th 03, 04:23 AM
(Hailey the supposed maine coon) has me stressed. In all 21
> of my years, I've never owned a feline, so perhaps having rescued a 4 week
> old kitten that insists that I'm her mommie from which she can nurse.
> While I'm crazy that she has fallen in love with me, I'm terrified that I'm
> going to do something wrong and kill her. So I'm going to start out slowly
> and ask a LOT of questions!

Natural to be stressed when you aren't familiar with an
animal. Natural for the kitten to treat you like "mom".
I've got a 12 year old that still thinks I'm her mom.
No point in trying to tell her differently now...
Probably yours will outgrow it. 4 weeks is WAY too
young to be away from mom. Generally they don't leave
mom till about 10 weeks, so you are going to have to
be mom for now.

>
> 1. I've learned that milk causes diarreah (I can't spell), but are there
> special nutrients that are in a cat mother's milk that she is missing in her
> kitten chow?

Besides the kitten replacement formula that you can get
at vets, or feed supply stores, goats milk is very good
for kittens. Closest to its mom's nutrient-wise. Some
grocery stores have it in quarts with regular milk.
Some have it in cans. Call around.




> 2. Longhair beauty that she is, we're having a.emm...pooping problem. Yeah,
> it sticks.


Shaving the rear area is the way to go.
So your cat looks a bit like a baboon.
This one is young, too young to be expected to
be able to take care of herself. Shaving lasts
for months. Easiest on the person and the cat.
Takes the vet two or three minutes to accomplish.

> 3. Declawing...Yeah, I'm sure you are all going to hate me for it, but it's
> getting done. She's an indoor cat and I'm afraid that she's going to scratch
> the babies. What age do vets usually recommend the procedure?

Perhaps it is your unfamiliarity with cats that leads
you to think this is necessary. I've got six, and from
baby days to age 12, they've never scratched me. Ok,
a rare time jumping off my lap I got a scratch on a bare
leg, but so what. You definitely are underestimating
the "biting problem" -- that declawed cats frequently
become very! hard biters, and can't be controlled.
Teach kids and kitten to play nice with each other.
Simple.

As far as breeder's comments.
I would never bother to ask a "breeder".
As with the one you asked, too often these so-called
breeders are out in left field with the info they give out.
And that one vet doesn't care about it means nothing.
Just because someone is a vet, doesn't mean they are a good
vet. And some vets just are detached.

Having had six, I would never declaw a cat.
There's no need in the world.







> 4. Spaying..what age?

They are doing it at just a few weeks this age.
I'd definitely plan to make sure it was done
by 6 months. Yours is young, and has enough to
adjust to. Let it grow for a few months.

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 04:26 AM
in article , Cathy Friedmann at
wrote on 7/7/03 7:05 PM:

>
> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article k.net, Nicole
>> at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:
>>
>>> I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which
> were
>>> declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly
> lived to
>>> be 17 years old.
>>>
>>> Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
> by
>>> BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or
> convince me
>>> to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead
> you've
>>> made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
>>> have given.
>>
>> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.
>>
>> Karen
>
> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
> dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.
>
> Cathy
>
> --
> "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>>
>
>
I tried presenting it in a kindly manner in my first response but got the
"Oh, la! Ah just think I'll have it done anyway." attitude. Didn't sound
well thought out to me and I HIGHLY doubt she actually watched the
procedure.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 04:26 AM
in article , Cathy Friedmann at
wrote on 7/7/03 7:05 PM:

>
> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article k.net, Nicole
>> at wrote on 7/7/03 6:27 PM:
>>
>>> I do have the balls to say that my husband has had cats before which
> were
>>> declawed and they were in great health. As a matter of fact, Dolly
> lived to
>>> be 17 years old.
>>>
>>> Do you people really think that you are going to get your point across
> by
>>> BASHING and being ignorant?? If you wanted to change my mind or
> convince me
>>> to NOT declaw Hailey - you have definately NOT succeeded. Instead
> you've
>>> made yourselves look like idiots and discredited all advice that you may
>>> have given.
>>
>> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.
>>
>> Karen
>
> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
> dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.
>
> Cathy
>
> --
> "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>>
>
>
I tried presenting it in a kindly manner in my first response but got the
"Oh, la! Ah just think I'll have it done anyway." attitude. Didn't sound
well thought out to me and I HIGHLY doubt she actually watched the
procedure.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 04:26 AM
in article , Laura R. at
wrote on 7/7/03 7:23 PM:

> circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:05:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
>> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
>> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
>> dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.
>>
> And when the facts were presented in a non-insulting manner, they
> were dismissed or ignored by Nicole. All I want to know is *why* she
> insists upon declawing her cat, and *why* she refuses to consider the
> other options.
>
> Laura

It's true. She's never said why she won't consider other methods.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 8th 03, 04:26 AM
in article , Laura R. at
wrote on 7/7/03 7:23 PM:

> circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:05:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Cathy Friedmann ) said,
>> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
>> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO. The facts were
>> dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-psychology sort of deal.
>>
> And when the facts were presented in a non-insulting manner, they
> were dismissed or ignored by Nicole. All I want to know is *why* she
> insists upon declawing her cat, and *why* she refuses to consider the
> other options.
>
> Laura

It's true. She's never said why she won't consider other methods.

Karen

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 04:42 AM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Cathy Friedmann at
| wrote on 7/7/03 7:05 PM:
|> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message

|>> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.

|> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
|> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO.

That, of course, would be me.

|> The facts were dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-
|> psychology sort of deal.

| I tried presenting it in a kindly manner in my first response but got
| the "Oh, la! Ah just think I'll have it done anyway." attitude.

Yeah, as in "I realize that it's a VERY controversial topic, but I
appreciate your advice! :)".

Controversial? If only it were just a matter of "opinions". Anything
to evade the facts, of course.

| Didn't sound well thought out to me and I HIGHLY doubt she actually
| watched the procedure.

There's got to be a special circle in hell reserved for people who have
seen the procedure and still go for it. Likely, they only watch the
procedure clinically - noticing only, for example, the speed with which
it's done, the lack of blood, etc. etc - as if all that mattered was the
surgeon's skill. Not a thought to the bone that came off to remove the
claw, or what the lack of that bone will do to the cat.

Makes me wonder what Nicole has done to her dogs.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 04:42 AM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:
| in article , Cathy Friedmann at
| wrote on 7/7/03 7:05 PM:
|> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message

|>> There speaks the voice of guilt since we've presented only facts.

|> Well, some - at least one person (I haven't read the whole thread
|> thoroughly), was really quite nasty & insulting, IMO.

That, of course, would be me.

|> The facts were dispensed in a way that would create a reverse-
|> psychology sort of deal.

| I tried presenting it in a kindly manner in my first response but got
| the "Oh, la! Ah just think I'll have it done anyway." attitude.

Yeah, as in "I realize that it's a VERY controversial topic, but I
appreciate your advice! :)".

Controversial? If only it were just a matter of "opinions". Anything
to evade the facts, of course.

| Didn't sound well thought out to me and I HIGHLY doubt she actually
| watched the procedure.

There's got to be a special circle in hell reserved for people who have
seen the procedure and still go for it. Likely, they only watch the
procedure clinically - noticing only, for example, the speed with which
it's done, the lack of blood, etc. etc - as if all that mattered was the
surgeon's skill. Not a thought to the bone that came off to remove the
claw, or what the lack of that bone will do to the cat.

Makes me wonder what Nicole has done to her dogs.

rainyseason
July 8th 03, 10:58 AM
"Nicole" wrote
> Barbara -
>
> Thus far, you are one of the only ones who has responded to my posts in a
> rational, mature, and helpful manner. Thank you for YOUR advice. :)

You're welcome. Remember to take lots of pictures of your
kitten while she's tiny. They grow up so quickly, quicker
than babies, you'll probably regret not keeping some memories.

As you surely won't be booking in your kitty for a major
operation in the next few months, you'll have a chance to
get to know her and watch her interact with your family (two
and four legged). You don't say what age your babies are.
But I bet you have eyes on the back of your head <g>.
Until your kitty can jump up onto tables you'll be able
to keep her out of the way of a tiny baby while she/he
sleeps. You might worry about a cat sleeping in the baby's
cot and smothering it. You can buy a cat net to put
over the cot to prevent that from happening. My cat was
never interested once the babies went to sleep. But it
did put my mind at rest when they went to sleep in their
pram in the garden.

I have to say that, for me, breast feeding with my first
was an amazing experience. My cat would curl up on my
lap once we were settled.

Cutting the claws of a cat or kitten takes a little skill.
It's good to get the kitten used to you touching and playing
with her feet and toes while she is quiet and dozing. Once
she trusts you, you'll be able to most things with her <g>.
If you press on the toe joints gently you'll be able to extend
her claws and take a good look. Part way down the claws
are the blood vessels and nerves. You'll need to cut just
short of this section or you'll make her bleed and cause her
a lot of pain and trauma. I got my vet to show me how to
do this the first time, after that it was fine.

If you want to brush her teeth, now is the time to gently
rub her gums while she is dozing. That way she'll be
used to doing stuff with her mouth. Even though she's
not shedding yet, you should start getting her used to a
grooming comb or brush. Grooming has become a very
special time for me and my cat, he gets very soppy ;-)
Long haired cats need grooming daily as far as I know.

There's lots to learn about cats. I think it might be
easier if you post your questions in a new thread and put
the declawing issue aside for a while. Concentrate on
getting to know your new kitty for a couple of months.
Before you know it you'll be falling in love with her and
she'll have you wrapped around her little toes.
---
Barbara

rainyseason
July 8th 03, 10:58 AM
"Nicole" wrote
> Barbara -
>
> Thus far, you are one of the only ones who has responded to my posts in a
> rational, mature, and helpful manner. Thank you for YOUR advice. :)

You're welcome. Remember to take lots of pictures of your
kitten while she's tiny. They grow up so quickly, quicker
than babies, you'll probably regret not keeping some memories.

As you surely won't be booking in your kitty for a major
operation in the next few months, you'll have a chance to
get to know her and watch her interact with your family (two
and four legged). You don't say what age your babies are.
But I bet you have eyes on the back of your head <g>.
Until your kitty can jump up onto tables you'll be able
to keep her out of the way of a tiny baby while she/he
sleeps. You might worry about a cat sleeping in the baby's
cot and smothering it. You can buy a cat net to put
over the cot to prevent that from happening. My cat was
never interested once the babies went to sleep. But it
did put my mind at rest when they went to sleep in their
pram in the garden.

I have to say that, for me, breast feeding with my first
was an amazing experience. My cat would curl up on my
lap once we were settled.

Cutting the claws of a cat or kitten takes a little skill.
It's good to get the kitten used to you touching and playing
with her feet and toes while she is quiet and dozing. Once
she trusts you, you'll be able to most things with her <g>.
If you press on the toe joints gently you'll be able to extend
her claws and take a good look. Part way down the claws
are the blood vessels and nerves. You'll need to cut just
short of this section or you'll make her bleed and cause her
a lot of pain and trauma. I got my vet to show me how to
do this the first time, after that it was fine.

If you want to brush her teeth, now is the time to gently
rub her gums while she is dozing. That way she'll be
used to doing stuff with her mouth. Even though she's
not shedding yet, you should start getting her used to a
grooming comb or brush. Grooming has become a very
special time for me and my cat, he gets very soppy ;-)
Long haired cats need grooming daily as far as I know.

There's lots to learn about cats. I think it might be
easier if you post your questions in a new thread and put
the declawing issue aside for a while. Concentrate on
getting to know your new kitty for a couple of months.
Before you know it you'll be falling in love with her and
she'll have you wrapped around her little toes.
---
Barbara

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 06:37 PM
In >, "rainyseason"
> wrote:

|>> And Nicole, you've still not answered the question of why you refuse
|>> to try SoftPaws.

|> Or claw trimming.

| Or even wait and see?

Chances are that the vet in question offers a "discount" for a combo
spay-and-declaw "deal". So there's still time.

| Tiny scratchy kittens soon learn not to scratch. They don't do it on
| purpose, they just need to learn how to retract their claws.

Yes. This is one of the reasons why a kitten needs other cats, to
socialize properly. Claw control is an important part of the early
training. (So are things like litterbox habits and grooming.)

| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

Unfortunately, the reverse may not be true. The fact of the matter is
that accidents are *invariably* the human child's fault, but few parents
are willing to concede that their darlings could have been responsible.
Far more important than teaching pets about children - pets learn much
more quickly than they're given credit for - is teaching children about
pets - because children as a rule don't learn quickly enough.

This is why rescue organizations generally don't adopt out to households
with (small) children.

| Some ways I taught my kittens not to scratch - play with them a lot with
| toys on a stick, never with hands. Withdraw hands if they want to play
| with them.

This is indeed very important. Use hands to touch their paws only while
petting (and/or brushing), never at play time.

| Get another kitten and they'll teach each other to play fair.

This is very good advice. Kittens should not be alone. As they grow
older, playing with each other will keep them out of other mischief.

Two littermates I trapped at about 11 weeks of age and then fostered
were a case in point. They came with almost perfect claw control - the
only time they used claws inadvertently was when they tried to clamber
onto my lap rather than jump up. Crying out in pain, and then setting
them down and ignoring them, did the trick - it took about a week.

By contrast, another kitten I trapped at 14 weeks (and still have) had
claw control problems, that took significantly longer to overcome. He
was the only survivor of his litter, and there were no other kittens or
juvenile cats in his feral colony. He missed out on a very important
part of growing up to be a cat. My other cat taught him a lot, but the
finer points of claw control were still lost on him for a while (a cat's
hide can take a lot more "punishment" than human skin.)

| Or maybe he'll learn that from the dog, I don't know about dogs so I'm
| just guessing here.

Dogs can also be very good teachers. Depends on the dog, of course.

| BTW, we just got a rescue kitten who turned scratchy and I received
| advice from people here. We just needed to give her a bit of time and
| space on her own and she's back to normal.

It takes observation, understanding and patience. There is no quick
fix.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 06:37 PM
In >, "rainyseason"
> wrote:

|>> And Nicole, you've still not answered the question of why you refuse
|>> to try SoftPaws.

|> Or claw trimming.

| Or even wait and see?

Chances are that the vet in question offers a "discount" for a combo
spay-and-declaw "deal". So there's still time.

| Tiny scratchy kittens soon learn not to scratch. They don't do it on
| purpose, they just need to learn how to retract their claws.

Yes. This is one of the reasons why a kitten needs other cats, to
socialize properly. Claw control is an important part of the early
training. (So are things like litterbox habits and grooming.)

| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

Unfortunately, the reverse may not be true. The fact of the matter is
that accidents are *invariably* the human child's fault, but few parents
are willing to concede that their darlings could have been responsible.
Far more important than teaching pets about children - pets learn much
more quickly than they're given credit for - is teaching children about
pets - because children as a rule don't learn quickly enough.

This is why rescue organizations generally don't adopt out to households
with (small) children.

| Some ways I taught my kittens not to scratch - play with them a lot with
| toys on a stick, never with hands. Withdraw hands if they want to play
| with them.

This is indeed very important. Use hands to touch their paws only while
petting (and/or brushing), never at play time.

| Get another kitten and they'll teach each other to play fair.

This is very good advice. Kittens should not be alone. As they grow
older, playing with each other will keep them out of other mischief.

Two littermates I trapped at about 11 weeks of age and then fostered
were a case in point. They came with almost perfect claw control - the
only time they used claws inadvertently was when they tried to clamber
onto my lap rather than jump up. Crying out in pain, and then setting
them down and ignoring them, did the trick - it took about a week.

By contrast, another kitten I trapped at 14 weeks (and still have) had
claw control problems, that took significantly longer to overcome. He
was the only survivor of his litter, and there were no other kittens or
juvenile cats in his feral colony. He missed out on a very important
part of growing up to be a cat. My other cat taught him a lot, but the
finer points of claw control were still lost on him for a while (a cat's
hide can take a lot more "punishment" than human skin.)

| Or maybe he'll learn that from the dog, I don't know about dogs so I'm
| just guessing here.

Dogs can also be very good teachers. Depends on the dog, of course.

| BTW, we just got a rescue kitten who turned scratchy and I received
| advice from people here. We just needed to give her a bit of time and
| space on her own and she's back to normal.

It takes observation, understanding and patience. There is no quick
fix.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 09:11 PM
[De-joepardied]

In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:
| "Laura R." > wrote in message
| .net...
| > circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| > Nicole ) said,

|>> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
|>
|> How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
|> of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
|> cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
|> that it was "humane"?

| If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
| your eating habits

Changing the subject, as usual.

I think you're lying. You have *not* seen the procedure.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong. Describe what you saw.

I'll even make it easy for you to make things up:

http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

See those bones on the towel? Did you pick one up to see how much came
off? Here's a page with diagrams so that you can be absolutely sure of
the anatomy:

http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Bonus points for answering this: what about the bleeding during the
procedure?

Haven't a clue, eh?

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 09:11 PM
[De-joepardied]

In k.net>, "Nicole"
> wrote:
| "Laura R." > wrote in message
| .net...
| > circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| > Nicole ) said,

|>> It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
|>
|> How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
|> of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
|> cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
|> that it was "humane"?

| If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
| your eating habits

Changing the subject, as usual.

I think you're lying. You have *not* seen the procedure.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong. Describe what you saw.

I'll even make it easy for you to make things up:

http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

See those bones on the towel? Did you pick one up to see how much came
off? Here's a page with diagrams so that you can be absolutely sure of
the anatomy:

http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Bonus points for answering this: what about the bleeding during the
procedure?

Haven't a clue, eh?

July 8th 03, 10:10 PM
Laura R. > wrote:

>circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
>Cathy Friedmann ) said,
>> Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
>> other person's opinions.
>>
>Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
>s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
>not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
>that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
>Nicole did.
>
>Laura

Posting baseless abuse reports puts her in the category they call
"Internet Kook" and she deserves anything Arjun dishes out.

Instructions :

In this section give your Prospective Kook ONE point for every YES
answer.

Give your Prospective Kook additional points for multiple occurrences.

Grading scale follows questions.

Have they ever :

1. Been the first to go ad-hominem in a newsgroup debate.
2. Accused someone of breaking a non-existant Federal Law.
3. Called a properly formatted cancel of a BI>20 article a *forged
cancel*
4. Ranted about *Free Speech* when a moderator rejected your article.
Two points if it's spelled "FREE SPEACH".
5. Tried to censor others, yet scream when others suggest that they
killfile them or create a moderated newsgroup.
6. Complained to someone's ISP when you got spanked in a flame war.
7. Been complained about to your ISP deservedly.
8. Flamed someone from an anonymous account.
9. Made a spelling flame. (*)
10. Used RANT-CAPS & manic punctuation.
11. Claimed to be qualified to make a legal determination or medical
diagnosis with no justification - bonus points if the kook is
obviously projecting her/his *own* condition/behaviour. (**)

In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES

July 8th 03, 10:10 PM
Laura R. > wrote:

>circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
>Cathy Friedmann ) said,
>> Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
>> other person's opinions.
>>
>Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
>s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
>not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
>that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
>Nicole did.
>
>Laura

Posting baseless abuse reports puts her in the category they call
"Internet Kook" and she deserves anything Arjun dishes out.

Instructions :

In this section give your Prospective Kook ONE point for every YES
answer.

Give your Prospective Kook additional points for multiple occurrences.

Grading scale follows questions.

Have they ever :

1. Been the first to go ad-hominem in a newsgroup debate.
2. Accused someone of breaking a non-existant Federal Law.
3. Called a properly formatted cancel of a BI>20 article a *forged
cancel*
4. Ranted about *Free Speech* when a moderator rejected your article.
Two points if it's spelled "FREE SPEACH".
5. Tried to censor others, yet scream when others suggest that they
killfile them or create a moderated newsgroup.
6. Complained to someone's ISP when you got spanked in a flame war.
7. Been complained about to your ISP deservedly.
8. Flamed someone from an anonymous account.
9. Made a spelling flame. (*)
10. Used RANT-CAPS & manic punctuation.
11. Claimed to be qualified to make a legal determination or medical
diagnosis with no justification - bonus points if the kook is
obviously projecting her/his *own* condition/behaviour. (**)

In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 10:59 PM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:
| circa 8 Jul 2003 15:11:14 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Arjun
| Ray ) said,
|> http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

| The pictures at the very bottom of the page would certainly seem to
| indicate that declawing is *not* a humane or safe procedure. I wonder
| if those cats' owners felt as horrible as they deserve to feel for
| doing that to their cats.

Sure they do - once they know. The guilt is unavoidable, but with
rational people, this usually passes. For one thing, what's done is
done - they can't go back and undo it. For another, the knowledge is
liberating - it's better to know than to be ignorant or deluded and then
defensively go into denial.

That's what happened in another newsgroup recently. Someone who had
declawed her cats insisted that it wasn't abuse, just routine surgery.
She didn't believe that declawing was amputation ("Where did you get
toes being cut off?? Get real!"), or that the pain is so reliable that
declaw post-ops are used to test painkillers.

But when presented with the facts, she had the *balls* to say that the
knowledge was better than continuing in denial:

"I have had a couple cats over the years that were declawed. You
giving me the facts like that was like a slap in the face. You think
I want to ADMIT I did something barbaric and painful to my cherished
and beloved cats? My babies? When you posted those links yesterday,
I refused to read them. I was sticking by my guns. I did NOT abuse
my babies, no way, no how, no way.

Well I did read them today. Thanks a lot!"

and signed her name with the comment: "eyes opened a little more and
feeling guilty as hell".

For someone with as fundmentally healthy attitude as she, the guilt will
pass. The knowledge will now allow her to say with conviction, "Never
again."

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 10:59 PM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:
| circa 8 Jul 2003 15:11:14 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Arjun
| Ray ) said,
|> http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

| The pictures at the very bottom of the page would certainly seem to
| indicate that declawing is *not* a humane or safe procedure. I wonder
| if those cats' owners felt as horrible as they deserve to feel for
| doing that to their cats.

Sure they do - once they know. The guilt is unavoidable, but with
rational people, this usually passes. For one thing, what's done is
done - they can't go back and undo it. For another, the knowledge is
liberating - it's better to know than to be ignorant or deluded and then
defensively go into denial.

That's what happened in another newsgroup recently. Someone who had
declawed her cats insisted that it wasn't abuse, just routine surgery.
She didn't believe that declawing was amputation ("Where did you get
toes being cut off?? Get real!"), or that the pain is so reliable that
declaw post-ops are used to test painkillers.

But when presented with the facts, she had the *balls* to say that the
knowledge was better than continuing in denial:

"I have had a couple cats over the years that were declawed. You
giving me the facts like that was like a slap in the face. You think
I want to ADMIT I did something barbaric and painful to my cherished
and beloved cats? My babies? When you posted those links yesterday,
I refused to read them. I was sticking by my guns. I did NOT abuse
my babies, no way, no how, no way.

Well I did read them today. Thanks a lot!"

and signed her name with the comment: "eyes opened a little more and
feeling guilty as hell".

For someone with as fundmentally healthy attitude as she, the guilt will
pass. The knowledge will now allow her to say with conviction, "Never
again."

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 11:26 PM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:

| circa Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:10:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| )
| said,
| > In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES
| >
| Where's section two? I was enjoying that!

IINM, this is the KAT (Kook Appraisal Test), posted to alt.usenet.kooks
quite a while back:




There must be um, upgrades around somewhere.

Arjun Ray
July 8th 03, 11:26 PM
In >, Laura R.
> wrote:

| circa Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:10:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| )
| said,
| > In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES
| >
| Where's section two? I was enjoying that!

IINM, this is the KAT (Kook Appraisal Test), posted to alt.usenet.kooks
quite a while back:




There must be um, upgrades around somewhere.

Sherry
July 9th 03, 12:37 AM
>| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
>| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
>| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

You're absolutely right. Cats and babies can be raised together with no
permanent damage to either species. I know this. I did it.

Sherry

Sherry
July 9th 03, 12:37 AM
>| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
>| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
>| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

You're absolutely right. Cats and babies can be raised together with no
permanent damage to either species. I know this. I did it.

Sherry