PDA

View Full Version : Re: Toilet training ??


moi
July 12th 03, 10:40 AM
I've
> > never seen the need for litter boxes.

I wish - mine come in from outside to use theirs! :o(

I will admit we adopted them when they were 5 years old and they had never
been allowed outside before. Five years later and they still dash in and
dive in the box. At least my neighbours can't blame me for the cat poo in
their gardens (got to find a consolation somewhere).

;o)

Moi

"Todd T. Fries" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately not all of us live in areas where we can let the cats
dispose
> of themselves outdoors. Infact, the particular apartment complex we live
> in says all pets outside of the apartments must be on leashes.
>
>
> In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
> [..]
> > Unless a cat is ill, or there is extremely bad weather, or is still
> > too young(or new to the house) to be properly house trained, I've
> > never seen the need for litter boxes. It is not 10:44pm and mine have
> > just gone out for their evening stroll. They know food will be ready
> > about 11:15 and you can bet they will be ready to come in then. Cat
> > flap gets locked for the night and will reopen as soon as someone gets
> > up in the morning (this time of year that will be about 7:30am).
>
> > --
> > Bob.
>
> > Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.
>
> --
> Todd Fries ..
>
>
> Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596
> http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124
> "..in support of free software solutions."
>
> Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A
> Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt
>
> (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10)
>

moi
July 12th 03, 10:40 AM
I've
> > never seen the need for litter boxes.

I wish - mine come in from outside to use theirs! :o(

I will admit we adopted them when they were 5 years old and they had never
been allowed outside before. Five years later and they still dash in and
dive in the box. At least my neighbours can't blame me for the cat poo in
their gardens (got to find a consolation somewhere).

;o)

Moi

"Todd T. Fries" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately not all of us live in areas where we can let the cats
dispose
> of themselves outdoors. Infact, the particular apartment complex we live
> in says all pets outside of the apartments must be on leashes.
>
>
> In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
> [..]
> > Unless a cat is ill, or there is extremely bad weather, or is still
> > too young(or new to the house) to be properly house trained, I've
> > never seen the need for litter boxes. It is not 10:44pm and mine have
> > just gone out for their evening stroll. They know food will be ready
> > about 11:15 and you can bet they will be ready to come in then. Cat
> > flap gets locked for the night and will reopen as soon as someone gets
> > up in the morning (this time of year that will be about 7:30am).
>
> > --
> > Bob.
>
> > Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.
>
> --
> Todd Fries ..
>
>
> Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596
> http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124
> "..in support of free software solutions."
>
> Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A
> Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt
>
> (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10)
>

Bob Brenchley.
July 13th 03, 12:20 PM
On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:49:57 -0500, "Todd T. Fries" >
wrote:


>In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Bob Brenchley. > wrote:
>[..]
>> Unless a cat is ill, or there is extremely bad weather, or is still
>> too young(or new to the house) to be properly house trained, I've
>> never seen the need for litter boxes. It is not 10:44pm and mine have
>> just gone out for their evening stroll. They know food will be ready
>> about 11:15 and you can bet they will be ready to come in then. Cat
>> flap gets locked for the night and will reopen as soon as someone gets
>> up in the morning (this time of year that will be about 7:30am).
>
>> --
>> Bob.
>
>> Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.

Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.

>Unfortunately not all of us live in areas where we can let the cats dispose
>of themselves outdoors. Infact, the particular apartment complex we live
>in says all pets outside of the apartments must be on leashes.

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.
>
>
--
Bob.

You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your
friends so they may learn as well.

Bob Brenchley.
July 13th 03, 12:20 PM
On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:49:57 -0500, "Todd T. Fries" >
wrote:


>In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Bob Brenchley. > wrote:
>[..]
>> Unless a cat is ill, or there is extremely bad weather, or is still
>> too young(or new to the house) to be properly house trained, I've
>> never seen the need for litter boxes. It is not 10:44pm and mine have
>> just gone out for their evening stroll. They know food will be ready
>> about 11:15 and you can bet they will be ready to come in then. Cat
>> flap gets locked for the night and will reopen as soon as someone gets
>> up in the morning (this time of year that will be about 7:30am).
>
>> --
>> Bob.
>
>> Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.

Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.

>Unfortunately not all of us live in areas where we can let the cats dispose
>of themselves outdoors. Infact, the particular apartment complex we live
>in says all pets outside of the apartments must be on leashes.

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.
>
>
--
Bob.

You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your
friends so they may learn as well.

Cammie
July 14th 03, 04:36 AM
Ignore "Bob", he is a troll and that indoor/outdoor argument has been his
schtick for as long as I can remember.


"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
>

Cammie
July 14th 03, 04:36 AM
Ignore "Bob", he is a troll and that indoor/outdoor argument has been his
schtick for as long as I can remember.


"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 14th 03, 03:25 PM
I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
post) ages ago. He's been on this same bent for years. You'd *think* he'd
be bored by now. Anyway, you can very safely ignore him. ;-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 14th 03, 03:25 PM
I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
post) ages ago. He's been on this same bent for years. You'd *think* he'd
be bored by now. Anyway, you can very safely ignore him. ;-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
>

Victor M. Martinez
July 14th 03, 03:44 PM
Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your

You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
nutbag?

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

Victor M. Martinez
July 14th 03, 03:44 PM
Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your

You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
nutbag?

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

dgk
July 14th 03, 04:49 PM
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:

>
> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>story.LOL!
>
>
I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
my experience also.

And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
much less than 10 years.

dgk
July 14th 03, 04:49 PM
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:

>
> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>story.LOL!
>
>
I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
my experience also.

And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
much less than 10 years.

*~*SooZy*~*
July 14th 03, 05:43 PM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> |
> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> | the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> | story.LOL!
> |
>
> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> involved in an accident of course.
> So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
> Carola
>
>
yes if they live away from the traffic and other nasty pussy cats! I should
imagine they would..... I have 2 indoor cats.

*~*SooZy*~*
July 14th 03, 05:43 PM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> |
> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> | the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> | story.LOL!
> |
>
> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> involved in an accident of course.
> So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
> Carola
>
>
yes if they live away from the traffic and other nasty pussy cats! I should
imagine they would..... I have 2 indoor cats.

Cathy Friedmann
July 14th 03, 06:18 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
> M. Martinez) wrote:
>
> >Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
> >>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
> >
> >You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
> >nutbag?
>
> I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
> (IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
> permanant file.

I agree. Bob's one of the *very* few who's in mine; he's a broken record &
his posts have no redeeming values, IMO. I don't feel that I'm going to
miss learning something (except that there are some mighty weird people out
there, which I discovered long ago) by not filtering him out.

> --
> In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Cool! :-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 14th 03, 06:18 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
> M. Martinez) wrote:
>
> >Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
> >>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
> >
> >You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
> >nutbag?
>
> I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
> (IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
> permanant file.

I agree. Bob's one of the *very* few who's in mine; he's a broken record &
his posts have no redeeming values, IMO. I don't feel that I'm going to
miss learning something (except that there are some mighty weird people out
there, which I discovered long ago) by not filtering him out.

> --
> In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Cool! :-)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

M.C. Mullen
July 14th 03, 06:26 PM
"dgk" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
| On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
| > wrote:
|
| >
| > It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
| >strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
| >outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
| >the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
| >scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
| >All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
| >point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
| >story.LOL!
| >
| >
| I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
| indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
| dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
| my experience also.
|
| And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
| much less than 10 years.


Oh, no, no! My first cat lived for well over twenty years. In fact we lost
track counting the years because nobody wrote the date down when she was
born. She only saw the vet twice: When she was spayed and when she had to be
put to sleep. She was always outside but never moved far away. She was very
cautious.
Nera, all black, was a super cat. I was allowed to pick the kitten. I felt
sorry for the black tiny and shy one hiding in the corner. So she was the
choice. I still miss her. She was my companion right through my childhood.
She used to come and greet me down the lane when I came home from school.

Carola

M.C. Mullen
July 14th 03, 06:26 PM
"dgk" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
| On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
| > wrote:
|
| >
| > It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
| >strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
| >outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
| >the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
| >scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
| >All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
| >point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
| >story.LOL!
| >
| >
| I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
| indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
| dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
| my experience also.
|
| And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
| much less than 10 years.


Oh, no, no! My first cat lived for well over twenty years. In fact we lost
track counting the years because nobody wrote the date down when she was
born. She only saw the vet twice: When she was spayed and when she had to be
put to sleep. She was always outside but never moved far away. She was very
cautious.
Nera, all black, was a super cat. I was allowed to pick the kitten. I felt
sorry for the black tiny and shy one hiding in the corner. So she was the
choice. I still miss her. She was my companion right through my childhood.
She used to come and greet me down the lane when I came home from school.

Carola

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 14th 03, 08:43 PM
Did you know that "black" cats are the survivors? That's what the shelter
volunteers told me, as they are not easily seen or noticed by other prey.
That also explains the large number of black cats in the feral population.
Seeing a white cat surviving in the woods would be slim and none.

As for the indoor/outdoor cat argument, my grandmother had a strictly
outdoor male cat that she allowed in the house only when it was extremely
cold in the winter. That cat lived for twenty years. The cat never visited
the vet, wasn't neutered, and occasionally appeared on her doorstep with
battle wounds. My grandmother lived in the country, a very rural area, with
hardly any traffic.

--
Visit my new webpage -
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

M.C. Mullen wrote in message >...
>
>Oh, no, no! My first cat lived for well over twenty years. In fact we lost
>track counting the years because nobody wrote the date down when she was
>born. She only saw the vet twice: When she was spayed and when she had to
be
>put to sleep. She was always outside but never moved far away. She was very
>cautious.
>Nera, all black, was a super cat. I was allowed to pick the kitten. I felt
>sorry for the black tiny and shy one hiding in the corner. So she was the
>choice. I still miss her. She was my companion right through my childhood.
>She used to come and greet me down the lane when I came home from school.
>
>Carola
>

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 14th 03, 08:43 PM
Did you know that "black" cats are the survivors? That's what the shelter
volunteers told me, as they are not easily seen or noticed by other prey.
That also explains the large number of black cats in the feral population.
Seeing a white cat surviving in the woods would be slim and none.

As for the indoor/outdoor cat argument, my grandmother had a strictly
outdoor male cat that she allowed in the house only when it was extremely
cold in the winter. That cat lived for twenty years. The cat never visited
the vet, wasn't neutered, and occasionally appeared on her doorstep with
battle wounds. My grandmother lived in the country, a very rural area, with
hardly any traffic.

--
Visit my new webpage -
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

M.C. Mullen wrote in message >...
>
>Oh, no, no! My first cat lived for well over twenty years. In fact we lost
>track counting the years because nobody wrote the date down when she was
>born. She only saw the vet twice: When she was spayed and when she had to
be
>put to sleep. She was always outside but never moved far away. She was very
>cautious.
>Nera, all black, was a super cat. I was allowed to pick the kitten. I felt
>sorry for the black tiny and shy one hiding in the corner. So she was the
>choice. I still miss her. She was my companion right through my childhood.
>She used to come and greet me down the lane when I came home from school.
>
>Carola
>

victoria
July 15th 03, 01:43 AM
Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
find them posted in many places of well established science. Unlesss
you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
well.they will know.




On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> wrote:

>
>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>|
>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>| story.LOL!
>|
>
>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>involved in an accident of course.
>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
>Carola
>

CARE TAKE!!!
Victoria
Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
http://www.redcross.org
http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
http://www.WallofTolerance.com

"...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24 March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls enough to prove it.

~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
http://www.stonewallestates.com

victoria
July 15th 03, 01:43 AM
Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
find them posted in many places of well established science. Unlesss
you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
well.they will know.




On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> wrote:

>
>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>|
>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>| story.LOL!
>|
>
>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>involved in an accident of course.
>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
>Carola
>

CARE TAKE!!!
Victoria
Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
http://www.redcross.org
http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
http://www.WallofTolerance.com

"...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24 March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls enough to prove it.

~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
http://www.stonewallestates.com

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 02:21 AM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...

following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...

> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.

While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor cats
are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.

> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
over teritory or
> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> | story.LOL!
> |
>
> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...

This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.

> unless they're involved in an accident of course.

Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or other
of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general, since
any one single cat may not conform to the norm).

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

> So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
> Carola
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 02:21 AM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...

following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...

> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.

While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor cats
are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.

> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
over teritory or
> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> | story.LOL!
> |
>
> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...

This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.

> unless they're involved in an accident of course.

Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or other
of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general, since
any one single cat may not conform to the norm).

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

> So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>
>
> Carola
>
>

victoria
July 15th 03, 02:28 AM
My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info hoping
it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.









On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:14:43 -0700, "Ash Smith" >
wrote:

>
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>
>What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
>outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
>what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as though
>it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say that
>it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
>the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
>house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
>they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>

CARE TAKE!!!
Victoria
Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
http://www.redcross.org
http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
http://www.WallofTolerance.com

"...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24 March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls enough to prove it.

~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
http://www.stonewallestates.com

victoria
July 15th 03, 02:28 AM
My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info hoping
it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.









On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:14:43 -0700, "Ash Smith" >
wrote:

>
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>
>What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
>outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
>what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as though
>it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say that
>it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
>the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
>house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
>they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>

CARE TAKE!!!
Victoria
Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
http://www.redcross.org
http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
http://www.WallofTolerance.com

"...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24 March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls enough to prove it.

~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
http://www.stonewallestates.com

Cheryl
July 15th 03, 02:38 AM
"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
YOUR
> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
> never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info
hoping
> it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
> cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
> adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.
>
>
I needed a laff tonight. Thank you. :)
lmao

Cheryl
July 15th 03, 02:38 AM
"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
YOUR
> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
> never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info
hoping
> it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
> cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
> adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.
>
>
I needed a laff tonight. Thank you. :)
lmao

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 03:04 AM
"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> And having had every cat but the one that died of cancer that I have
> owned live to at least 20 and having friends andd family also having
> cats that live to 20 or older I wonder how you treat your cats that
> they live so short a life.

First, could you please quote the post to which you're responding, w/ proper
attribution? It's extremely difficult to tell to whom & to what you're
replying - since your posts appear in complete isolation. (I can do it, but
it involves expanding the thread all over again. I have my newsreader set
to view only the unread posts.)

Secondly, IMO, my cats who've died did not have short lives. The first one
was 17¾ years old when she died of CRF, & the second cat was 16¼. The
second cat had developed acute --> chronic liver disease at age 11, &
hyperthyroidism when she was 12, & was treated for those probs via an
internist working w/ my regular vet. Almost 5 years after her liver disease
had shown up, her liver bw was finally normal. (The thyroid problem had
been stabilized long ago.) But then she developed CRF, was again
aggressively treated - sub-Q fluids, diet, K supplement, Procrit, potassium
binder, etc. - as they became needed, but she succumbed to the CRF 8 months
post diagnosis.

I personally know of only one person (IRL) whose cat has lived to 20.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:10 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> ...
> >
> >following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...
> >
> >> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.
> >
> >While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
> >certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
> >that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor
cats
> >are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.
> >
> >> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
> >over teritory or
> >> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >> | story.LOL!
> >> |
> >>
> >> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...
> >
> >This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.
> >
> >> unless they're involved in an accident of course.
> >
> >Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or
other
> >of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general,
since
> >any one single cat may not conform to the norm).
> >
> >Cathy
>
> CARE TAKE!!!
> Victoria
> Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
> http://www.redcross.org
> http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
> http://www.WallofTolerance.com
>
> "...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24
March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know
exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls
enough to prove it.
>
> ~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
> http://www.stonewallestates.com

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 03:04 AM
"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> And having had every cat but the one that died of cancer that I have
> owned live to at least 20 and having friends andd family also having
> cats that live to 20 or older I wonder how you treat your cats that
> they live so short a life.

First, could you please quote the post to which you're responding, w/ proper
attribution? It's extremely difficult to tell to whom & to what you're
replying - since your posts appear in complete isolation. (I can do it, but
it involves expanding the thread all over again. I have my newsreader set
to view only the unread posts.)

Secondly, IMO, my cats who've died did not have short lives. The first one
was 17¾ years old when she died of CRF, & the second cat was 16¼. The
second cat had developed acute --> chronic liver disease at age 11, &
hyperthyroidism when she was 12, & was treated for those probs via an
internist working w/ my regular vet. Almost 5 years after her liver disease
had shown up, her liver bw was finally normal. (The thyroid problem had
been stabilized long ago.) But then she developed CRF, was again
aggressively treated - sub-Q fluids, diet, K supplement, Procrit, potassium
binder, etc. - as they became needed, but she succumbed to the CRF 8 months
post diagnosis.

I personally know of only one person (IRL) whose cat has lived to 20.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:10 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> ...
> >
> >following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...
> >
> >> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.
> >
> >While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
> >certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
> >that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor
cats
> >are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.
> >
> >> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
> >over teritory or
> >> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >> | story.LOL!
> >> |
> >>
> >> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...
> >
> >This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.
> >
> >> unless they're involved in an accident of course.
> >
> >Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or
other
> >of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general,
since
> >any one single cat may not conform to the norm).
> >
> >Cathy
>
> CARE TAKE!!!
> Victoria
> Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
> http://www.redcross.org
> http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
> http://www.WallofTolerance.com
>
> "...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24
March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know
exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls
enough to prove it.
>
> ~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
> http://www.stonewallestates.com

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 03:09 AM
An apology - but only about the quoting/attribution - which didn't - for
some reason, appear on my screen the first time I read your post.

Otherwise, I think you're way off-base.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> And having had every cat but the one that died of cancer that I have
> owned live to at least 20 and having friends andd family also having
> cats that live to 20 or older I wonder how you treat your cats that
> they live so short a life.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:10 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> ...
> >
> >following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...
> >
> >> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.
> >
> >While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
> >certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
> >that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor
cats
> >are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.
> >
> >> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
> >over teritory or
> >> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >> | story.LOL!
> >> |
> >>
> >> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...
> >
> >This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.
> >
> >> unless they're involved in an accident of course.
> >
> >Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or
other
> >of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general,
since
> >any one single cat may not conform to the norm).
> >
> >Cathy
>
> CARE TAKE!!!
> Victoria
> Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
> http://www.redcross.org
> http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
> http://www.WallofTolerance.com
>
> "...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24
March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know
exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls
enough to prove it.
>
> ~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
> http://www.stonewallestates.com

Cathy Friedmann
July 15th 03, 03:09 AM
An apology - but only about the quoting/attribution - which didn't - for
some reason, appear on my screen the first time I read your post.

Otherwise, I think you're way off-base.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"victoria" > wrote in message
...
>
> And having had every cat but the one that died of cancer that I have
> owned live to at least 20 and having friends andd family also having
> cats that live to 20 or older I wonder how you treat your cats that
> they live so short a life.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:10 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> ...
> >
> >following up to 2 replies in one fell swoop...
> >
> >> | It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >> | strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >> | outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years.
> >
> >While an indoor (or any cat, though indoor'd be more likely) cat may
> >certainly live to be 20 - 21 years old, I have a difficult time believing
> >that 20 is an *average*. That would mean that a whole slew of indoor
cats
> >are living to be older than 20. An average age of 16 - 17, I'd believe.
> >
> >> | this is due to the fact they are not having to stress themselves out
> >over teritory or
> >> | scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >> | All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >> | point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >> | story.LOL!
> >> |
> >>
> >> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...
> >
> >This one's a new one on me. I doubt it; big time doubt it.
> >
> >> unless they're involved in an accident of course.
> >
> >Well, considering that so many outdoor cats do succumb to some type or
other
> >of accident, that pretty much negates the live longer bit (in general,
since
> >any one single cat may not conform to the norm).
> >
> >Cathy
>
> CARE TAKE!!!
> Victoria
> Catlash Productions: http://catlashproductions.bravepages.com/index.html
> http://www.redcross.org
> http://www.GothsAgainstHate.com
> http://www.WallofTolerance.com
>
> "...I don't know any of you." posted by Ivan the Idiotic on Monday,24
March 2003 after many long,past diatribes of challenges presuming to know
exactly who I and many others of ok.general are yet never having balls
enough to prove it.
>
> ~~Want exclusive living yet close to city and schools?
> http://www.stonewallestates.com

Sherry
July 15th 03, 05:26 AM
>> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
>YOUR
>> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING.

Look, 20 years old isn't the average lifespan for any cat. Cats *can* live that
long, but it's certainly not "average." : Try a google search, searchwords "cat
lifespan." Pick up the phone book and call a few vets yourself. If you find
evidence to the contrary, by all means, post it.

Sherrry

Sherry
July 15th 03, 05:26 AM
>> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
>YOUR
>> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING.

Look, 20 years old isn't the average lifespan for any cat. Cats *can* live that
long, but it's certainly not "average." : Try a google search, searchwords "cat
lifespan." Pick up the phone book and call a few vets yourself. If you find
evidence to the contrary, by all means, post it.

Sherrry

M.C. Mullen
July 15th 03, 07:16 AM
"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
|
| My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
| OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
| never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info hoping
| it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
| cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
| adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.


You are the only one arguing here :-)
What makes you think we're not informed?
As for myself I have got my information about outdoor cats living longer
(if not involved in an accident, that is)
from:

-two books
-a radio programme
-and a vet.

They all stated that the exercise, being in the fresh air and the
interesting life outside that demands all the cat's senses are the cause.

But I'm well prepared to learn and change my mind if I get other/better
evidence.
I read all the posting to this topic with an open mind and great interest.


Carola

M.C. Mullen
July 15th 03, 07:16 AM
"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
|
| My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
| OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue than learn
| never get much respect out of me. I only provided you with info hoping
| it would spark some of you to want to take an ACTIVE part in your
| cat's care. I see know one knows what vets are so I bid you children
| adeu. I grew out of arguing when I got to 4th grade.


You are the only one arguing here :-)
What makes you think we're not informed?
As for myself I have got my information about outdoor cats living longer
(if not involved in an accident, that is)
from:

-two books
-a radio programme
-and a vet.

They all stated that the exercise, being in the fresh air and the
interesting life outside that demands all the cat's senses are the cause.

But I'm well prepared to learn and change my mind if I get other/better
evidence.
I read all the posting to this topic with an open mind and great interest.


Carola

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 07:55 AM
In article >, dgk
> writes
>On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>story.LOL!
>>
>>
>I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>my experience also.
>
>And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>much less than 10 years.

Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 07:55 AM
In article >, dgk
> writes
>On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>story.LOL!
>>
>>
>I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>my experience also.
>
>And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>much less than 10 years.

Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 07:59 AM
In article >, Cammie
> writes
>Ignore "Bob", he is a troll and that indoor/outdoor argument has been his
>schtick for as long as I can remember.

Yes he has this indoor/outdoor thing - but he is not a troll as I
understand them. For heavens sake - he even includes his surname in his
postings! The real trolls are the ones posting to these groups
suggesting the cure for cats scratching furniture is to kill them, and
the like. It's also the people like 'Basildon Pete' who infests certain
newsgroups and has to change identities several times a year as various
ISPs cut off his account in response to the various complaints. If you
want to see a selection of his ravings search for 'Bishop Mbongo' at
whatever Deajwint has turned into.

<snip>

PS my cats think me cruel if I make them stay in all day - unless it's
clearly raining both sides of the house!

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 07:59 AM
In article >, Cammie
> writes
>Ignore "Bob", he is a troll and that indoor/outdoor argument has been his
>schtick for as long as I can remember.

Yes he has this indoor/outdoor thing - but he is not a troll as I
understand them. For heavens sake - he even includes his surname in his
postings! The real trolls are the ones posting to these groups
suggesting the cure for cats scratching furniture is to kill them, and
the like. It's also the people like 'Basildon Pete' who infests certain
newsgroups and has to change identities several times a year as various
ISPs cut off his account in response to the various complaints. If you
want to see a selection of his ravings search for 'Bishop Mbongo' at
whatever Deajwint has turned into.

<snip>

PS my cats think me cruel if I make them stay in all day - unless it's
clearly raining both sides of the house!

--
Five Cats

Nicolaas Hawkins
July 15th 03, 08:01 AM
Quoting "victoria" on 15 Jul 2003:

>
> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
> YOUR OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue
> than learn never get much respect out of me. I only provided you
> with info hoping it would spark some of you to want to take an
> ACTIVE part in your cat's care. I see know one knows what vets
> are so I bid you children adeu. I grew out of arguing when I
> got to 4th grade.


It seems that you abandoned even before that any pretense of learning
either spelling or grammar - or were you deemed ineducable? Your
evident inability to learn how to post correctly to Usenet certainly
suggests so. You probably like sex and travel, so do the obvious.


--

-Nicolaas

Nicolaas Hawkins
July 15th 03, 08:01 AM
Quoting "victoria" on 15 Jul 2003:

>
> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK
> YOUR OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING. People that would rather argue
> than learn never get much respect out of me. I only provided you
> with info hoping it would spark some of you to want to take an
> ACTIVE part in your cat's care. I see know one knows what vets
> are so I bid you children adeu. I grew out of arguing when I
> got to 4th grade.


It seems that you abandoned even before that any pretense of learning
either spelling or grammar - or were you deemed ineducable? Your
evident inability to learn how to post correctly to Usenet certainly
suggests so. You probably like sex and travel, so do the obvious.


--

-Nicolaas

Troy
July 15th 03, 10:14 AM
"Cathy Friedmann" > wrote in message

> Otherwise, I think you're way off-base.
>
> Cathy
>

Yes, I agree with you.

Troy
July 15th 03, 10:14 AM
"Cathy Friedmann" > wrote in message

> Otherwise, I think you're way off-base.
>
> Cathy
>

Yes, I agree with you.

Dee
July 15th 03, 04:16 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, victoria wrote:

> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING.


....LOL


Dee

Dee
July 15th 03, 04:16 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, victoria wrote:

> My final post on this. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME LIKE CHILDREN.GO ASK YOUR
> OWN VETRS,DO SOME READING.


....LOL


Dee

Michelle Fulton
July 15th 03, 07:07 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> There are dangers to cats in the US that
> simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
> more sensible to keep cats inside

What dangers would those be?

> - also houses in the US are on average
> considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
> or care about these facts.

I don't know about the average house being larger, but I do know that some
cats show a great desire to go outside and some show none. It's not cruel
to keep them inside if they've got plenty to keep them busy indoors and the
environment is clean and healthy, IMHO. I have had a couple of indoor only
cats and they were happy and never tried to get out the door when it was
opened. I prefer not to be brought 'gifts' and fleas anyway ;-)

M

Michelle Fulton
July 15th 03, 07:07 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> There are dangers to cats in the US that
> simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
> more sensible to keep cats inside

What dangers would those be?

> - also houses in the US are on average
> considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
> or care about these facts.

I don't know about the average house being larger, but I do know that some
cats show a great desire to go outside and some show none. It's not cruel
to keep them inside if they've got plenty to keep them busy indoors and the
environment is clean and healthy, IMHO. I have had a couple of indoor only
cats and they were happy and never tried to get out the door when it was
opened. I prefer not to be brought 'gifts' and fleas anyway ;-)

M

Michelle Fulton
July 15th 03, 09:22 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.

Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
cats, or are cats too fast for them?

> But fresh duck and rabbit is part of the experience of being owned by a
> cat!

My indoor/outdoor cats never brought such fine delicacies. We got rabbit
heads, birds, lizards, rats/mice and snakes. Do you really cook their
'gifts'?

M

Michelle Fulton
July 15th 03, 09:22 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.

Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
cats, or are cats too fast for them?

> But fresh duck and rabbit is part of the experience of being owned by a
> cat!

My indoor/outdoor cats never brought such fine delicacies. We got rabbit
heads, birds, lizards, rats/mice and snakes. Do you really cook their
'gifts'?

M

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 09:37 PM
As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
occasional kitten-killing tomcat. I've been told and heard so many times
that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.
I suppose if a carnivore or omnivore is hungry enough, it will seek anything
for food. All black, grey, dark brown, or dark striped animals have an
advantage in the dark woods. They also blend in well with the underlying
dark brown and black leaves, composting matter, and rotting tree branches,
bark, and other vegetation. Summertime affords more protection with the
large canopies of trees, and undergrowth shrubs and plants. White
cats/kittens really stand out and would be very easily noticed at night.

Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Troy wrote in message ...

>As for wild cat coats, in my area of Australia the bush vegetation is
>quite sparse and light, as a result of this most of the wild cats are
>a Main Coon colour while further towards the outback and desert the
>wild cats are biscuit/sandy/light orange colours.

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 09:37 PM
As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
occasional kitten-killing tomcat. I've been told and heard so many times
that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.
I suppose if a carnivore or omnivore is hungry enough, it will seek anything
for food. All black, grey, dark brown, or dark striped animals have an
advantage in the dark woods. They also blend in well with the underlying
dark brown and black leaves, composting matter, and rotting tree branches,
bark, and other vegetation. Summertime affords more protection with the
large canopies of trees, and undergrowth shrubs and plants. White
cats/kittens really stand out and would be very easily noticed at night.

Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Troy wrote in message ...

>As for wild cat coats, in my area of Australia the bush vegetation is
>quite sparse and light, as a result of this most of the wild cats are
>a Main Coon colour while further towards the outback and desert the
>wild cats are biscuit/sandy/light orange colours.

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 09:57 PM
In article >, Chris Street
> writes
>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 GMT, "Nina S." >
>wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>I truly believe that cats are far safer, healthier, and yes, even happier at
>>times, inside than out. But, that is just my opinion.
>
>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>or care about these facts.

Neither do the people who are as dogmatic that cats should never be let
out as Bob is that they should not be kept in all the time.

Personally I choose where I live now as safe for them to go out, and
will continue to do so every time I move house whilst I still have cats.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 09:57 PM
In article >, Chris Street
> writes
>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 GMT, "Nina S." >
>wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>I truly believe that cats are far safer, healthier, and yes, even happier at
>>times, inside than out. But, that is just my opinion.
>
>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>or care about these facts.

Neither do the people who are as dogmatic that cats should never be let
out as Bob is that they should not be kept in all the time.

Personally I choose where I live now as safe for them to go out, and
will continue to do so every time I move house whilst I still have cats.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 10:03 PM
In article >, Michelle
Fulton > writes
>"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
>> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
>
>Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
>cats, or are cats too fast for them?

It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
to bear arms'.

Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.


>
>> But fresh duck and rabbit is part of the experience of being owned by a
>> cat!
>
>My indoor/outdoor cats never brought such fine delicacies. We got rabbit
>heads, birds, lizards, rats/mice and snakes. Do you really cook their
>'gifts'?

Errol doesn't bring me gifts - he usually eats what he catches on the
back lawn.


--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 15th 03, 10:03 PM
In article >, Michelle
Fulton > writes
>"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
>> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
>
>Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
>cats, or are cats too fast for them?

It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
to bear arms'.

Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.


>
>> But fresh duck and rabbit is part of the experience of being owned by a
>> cat!
>
>My indoor/outdoor cats never brought such fine delicacies. We got rabbit
>heads, birds, lizards, rats/mice and snakes. Do you really cook their
>'gifts'?

Errol doesn't bring me gifts - he usually eats what he catches on the
back lawn.


--
Five Cats

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 10:24 PM
We also have red fox. I forgot about this animal, but I have seen red fox
in front of the house, in the back of the house, and in the woods day and
night. When I first moved here, I left some cheese out near the back porch
and that night I saw a red fox eating it. I don't know if red fox would
attack kittens/cats.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Invincible (Shazza De Coon) wrote in message
>...
>As I live in the states, I'm not fami
liar with Australia. In the wooded
>areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
>occasional kitten-killing tomcat

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 10:24 PM
We also have red fox. I forgot about this animal, but I have seen red fox
in front of the house, in the back of the house, and in the woods day and
night. When I first moved here, I left some cheese out near the back porch
and that night I saw a red fox eating it. I don't know if red fox would
attack kittens/cats.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Invincible (Shazza De Coon) wrote in message
>...
>As I live in the states, I'm not fami
liar with Australia. In the wooded
>areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
>occasional kitten-killing tomcat

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 10:31 PM
You've answered my questions about foxes. If I had a choice between a large
house or a small, cottage style home and a spacious, safe yard, I'd choose
the smaller home and let my cats out part of the day.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Five Cats wrote in message ...

>Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
>TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
>small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
>that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
>of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
>are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
>athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
>about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.
>

Invincible (Shazza De Coon)
July 15th 03, 10:31 PM
You've answered my questions about foxes. If I had a choice between a large
house or a small, cottage style home and a spacious, safe yard, I'd choose
the smaller home and let my cats out part of the day.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Five Cats wrote in message ...

>Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
>TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
>small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
>that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
>of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
>are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
>athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
>about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.
>

July 16th 03, 05:44 AM
Nicolaas Hawkins > wrote:

> You probably like sex and travel, so do the obvious.

Hah - Good one!

July 16th 03, 05:44 AM
Nicolaas Hawkins > wrote:

> You probably like sex and travel, so do the obvious.

Hah - Good one!

Troy
July 16th 03, 04:14 PM
"Invincible (Shazza De Coon)" > wrote in message >...
> As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
> areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
> occasional kitten-killing tomcat.

Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
cats do.

> I've been told and heard so many times
> that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
> they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
> One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
> outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.

I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
the raccons and fox?

> Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
> actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?

Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
desert - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
cats or many native species.

By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.

Troy.

Troy
July 16th 03, 04:14 PM
"Invincible (Shazza De Coon)" > wrote in message >...
> As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
> areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
> occasional kitten-killing tomcat.

Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
cats do.

> I've been told and heard so many times
> that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
> they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
> One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
> outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.

I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
the raccons and fox?

> Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
> actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?

Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
desert - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
cats or many native species.

By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.

Troy.

Shazza
July 16th 03, 05:30 PM
My "sitting room" is a living room. ;)

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Karen Chuplis wrote in message ..
..
>Sometimes peoples "sitting room" is a term for "nice room people who come
>over visit in". They do their tv watching in the "living room". I would
>guess this is the case here.
>
>Karen
>

Shazza
July 16th 03, 05:30 PM
My "sitting room" is a living room. ;)

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Karen Chuplis wrote in message ..
..
>Sometimes peoples "sitting room" is a term for "nice room people who come
>over visit in". They do their tv watching in the "living room". I would
>guess this is the case here.
>
>Karen
>

Shazza
July 16th 03, 06:05 PM
Troy wrote in message ...

>Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
>cats do.
>
>I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
>the raccons and fox?

That's entirely possible and another way of looking at this situation.
Raccoons, however, have extremely sharp claws and would put up quite a
fight. I suspect a raccoon might win in a fight. Skunks, too, have claws
and that sickening skunk odor to protect them.
>
>> >
Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
>classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
>spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
>is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
>desert - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
>Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
>sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
>their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
>bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
>racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
>here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
>species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
>preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
>currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
>to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
>cats or many native species.
>
>By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
>grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
>been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.
>
>Troy.

I was led to believe that cats here in the wild have no predators, but I
think if a kitten can survive to become an adult cat, its chances for
survival are quite good, not counting car fatalities. I wasn't aware of
the coyotes that have been seen in the woods, but cats with claws can climb
trees and are quite fast. I don't think domestic or feral cats are the main
food source of the coyote population here. Coyotes, as raccoons, are
omnivores and will eat fruits, nuts, and berries. My lost cat Mysty was a
feral kitten, dark to light gray mackeral tabby with black striping on his
head and spine and he looked like a raccoon. My two new kittens, brown
tabbies, have the same gray to black brindle that you describe, that mouse
gray or raccoon color.

Australia, such an expansive country!

Shazza
July 16th 03, 06:05 PM
Troy wrote in message ...

>Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
>cats do.
>
>I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
>the raccons and fox?

That's entirely possible and another way of looking at this situation.
Raccoons, however, have extremely sharp claws and would put up quite a
fight. I suspect a raccoon might win in a fight. Skunks, too, have claws
and that sickening skunk odor to protect them.
>
>> >
Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
>classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
>spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
>is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
>desert - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
>Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
>sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
>their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
>bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
>racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
>here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
>species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
>preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
>currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
>to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
>cats or many native species.
>
>By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
>grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
>been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.
>
>Troy.

I was led to believe that cats here in the wild have no predators, but I
think if a kitten can survive to become an adult cat, its chances for
survival are quite good, not counting car fatalities. I wasn't aware of
the coyotes that have been seen in the woods, but cats with claws can climb
trees and are quite fast. I don't think domestic or feral cats are the main
food source of the coyote population here. Coyotes, as raccoons, are
omnivores and will eat fruits, nuts, and berries. My lost cat Mysty was a
feral kitten, dark to light gray mackeral tabby with black striping on his
head and spine and he looked like a raccoon. My two new kittens, brown
tabbies, have the same gray to black brindle that you describe, that mouse
gray or raccoon color.

Australia, such an expansive country!

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:49 PM
In article >, Troy
> writes
>"Invincible (Shazza De Coon)" > wrote in
>message >...
>> As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
>> areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
>> occasional kitten-killing tomcat.
>
>Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
>cats do.
>
>> I've been told and heard so many times
>> that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
>> they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
>> One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
>> outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.
>
>I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
>the raccons and fox?
>
>> Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
>> actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?
>
>Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
>classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
>spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
>is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
>desert

Maybe not since the ancestors of the domestic cat were living in the
Egyptian deserts - cats are well-adapted to desert life.

> - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
>Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
>sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
>their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
>bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
>racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
>here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
>species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
>preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
>currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
>to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
>cats or many native species.
>
>By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
>grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
>been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.

That sounds like an urban myth. If feral domestic cats could grow that
big so would domestic domestic cats. The only way they can really be
that large is if there has been some interbreeding with another species
of cat, and one closely enough related that the offspring are fertile.

>
>Troy.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:49 PM
In article >, Troy
> writes
>"Invincible (Shazza De Coon)" > wrote in
>message >...
>> As I live in the states, I'm not familiar with Australia. In the wooded
>> areas where I live we have coyotes, soaring hawks, owls, raccoons, and the
>> occasional kitten-killing tomcat.
>
>Most tomcats will kill kittens if they are not their own - just as big
>cats do.
>
>> I've been told and heard so many times
>> that raccoons will kill kittens. Raccoons are extremely common here, as
>> they continuously forage for food and roam at night.
>> One of the vets told me that raccoons and cats will coexist side by side
>> outdoors and leave each other alone, but I'm not sure of helpless kittens.
>
>I expect that cats also have their fill of other species young like
>the raccons and fox?
>
>> Australian natural cats or wild cats sound quite colorful. Do Australians
>> actually attempt to tame or adopt them and keep them as pets?
>
>Unfortunately the Australian wild cat population are probably better
>classified as feral. Recent genetic studies have shown that the cat
>spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
>is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
>desert

Maybe not since the ancestors of the domestic cat were living in the
Egyptian deserts - cats are well-adapted to desert life.

> - by the way, in case you're not familiar with the size of
>Australia; the US is 3.6 million sq miles and Australia is 3.0 million
>sq miles. Australian cats probably sound colourful but in relation to
>their environments they blend in perfectly. Most of the ones living in
>bush/forest/woodland areas are a brindle grey colour (a bit like a
>racoon coat) - as are most of the mammals in these area. The wild cats
>here are responsible for putting a huge stress on the local native
>species, especially small marsupials and birds (there are no native
>preditors in Australia that can climb trees!). Organisations are
>currently trying to wipe out the wild cat which is a sad thing to have
>to do to any species but there is really no choice - it's either the
>cats or many native species.
>
>By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
>grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
>been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.

That sounds like an urban myth. If feral domestic cats could grow that
big so would domestic domestic cats. The only way they can really be
that large is if there has been some interbreeding with another species
of cat, and one closely enough related that the offspring are fertile.

>
>Troy.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:51 PM
In article >, Troy
> writes
>Five Cats > wrote in message
>...
>> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
>> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
>> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
>> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
>> to bear arms'.
>
>Oh come, come Five Cats - the US only has about 5000% more gun deaths
>than other first world nations.

Isn't '5000%' just another way of saying 'much lower'?

>
>> Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
>> TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
>> small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
>> that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
>> of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
>> are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
>> athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
>> about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.
>
>I remember when I was living in the UK that my cats weren't phased at
>all by foxes. One cold winter night I looked out my back window to see
>one of my cats sitting on the top of the fence about 1 metre away from
>him there was a fox - they were both just sitting watching the
>night...

Busy ignoring each other...

>
>Troy.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:51 PM
In article >, Troy
> writes
>Five Cats > wrote in message
>...
>> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
>> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
>> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
>> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
>> to bear arms'.
>
>Oh come, come Five Cats - the US only has about 5000% more gun deaths
>than other first world nations.

Isn't '5000%' just another way of saying 'much lower'?

>
>> Foxes are not a threat to a healthy adult cat (there was a cute film on
>> TV once of a cat seeing off a fox) - the foxes we have here are pretty
>> small animals - and badgers are not common in most areas. I suspect
>> that badgers and cats, and foxes and cats, simply ignore each other most
>> of the time. Animals I consider more dangerous than foxes or badgers
>> are Pine Martens, Mink and possibly Otters. All nasty, well-armed,
>> athletic and well able to do damage to cats. However all are also just
>> about unknown in urban situations and rare in most of the countryside.
>
>I remember when I was living in the UK that my cats weren't phased at
>all by foxes. One cold winter night I looked out my back window to see
>one of my cats sitting on the top of the fence about 1 metre away from
>him there was a fox - they were both just sitting watching the
>night...

Busy ignoring each other...

>
>Troy.

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:54 PM
In article >, Shazza
> writes
<snip>
>
>My entire open doorway from the kitchen to the dining room is filled with
>boxes. ;)
<snip>

The boxes, the boxes....

I moved in January and still have a couple I've not unpacked - one is
mostly full of rosettes from cat shows and the other has the record deck
in. The unpacked boxes went to a friend who was about to move and he
has a dozen or so of them in his garage. He moved in May I think.

Do they breed if you leave them near each other? If they do I reckon
they fill themselves with the stuff one thought one threw out when one
moved!


--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 16th 03, 07:54 PM
In article >, Shazza
> writes
<snip>
>
>My entire open doorway from the kitchen to the dining room is filled with
>boxes. ;)
<snip>

The boxes, the boxes....

I moved in January and still have a couple I've not unpacked - one is
mostly full of rosettes from cat shows and the other has the record deck
in. The unpacked boxes went to a friend who was about to move and he
has a dozen or so of them in his garage. He moved in May I think.

Do they breed if you leave them near each other? If they do I reckon
they fill themselves with the stuff one thought one threw out when one
moved!


--
Five Cats

Martijn
July 16th 03, 10:18 PM
In the Netherlands indoor as well as indoor/outdoor cats exist. My two cats
started off as indoors, but after I moved I have a small garden to share
with them. And now I sometimes have a hard time getting them back in the
house when I leave or go to sleep. (I would hate it when the cats are
outside, unable to get in, while it would start raining.... argh Dutch
climate ;-) )

The cats can even leave the garden and roam around the neighborhood (more
gardens), which they do. In theory, cars would pose a big threat to them
(there's a awful lot of traffic here), but scince they're terrified of all
the traffic noise I don't really have to worry about that. ;-)

How long my cats are going to live, I don't know. They're my first and are
now 3 years old... (Glad to know they have at least 7 to go, thanks folks
;-) )

Martijn.

"Five Cats" > schreef in bericht
...
> In article >, dgk
> > writes
> >On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> >>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> >>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >>story.LOL!
> >>
> >>
> >I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
> >indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
> >dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
> >my experience also.
> >
> >And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
> >much less than 10 years.
>
> Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
> 'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
> surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
> most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
> please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.
>
> --
> Five Cats

Martijn
July 16th 03, 10:18 PM
In the Netherlands indoor as well as indoor/outdoor cats exist. My two cats
started off as indoors, but after I moved I have a small garden to share
with them. And now I sometimes have a hard time getting them back in the
house when I leave or go to sleep. (I would hate it when the cats are
outside, unable to get in, while it would start raining.... argh Dutch
climate ;-) )

The cats can even leave the garden and roam around the neighborhood (more
gardens), which they do. In theory, cars would pose a big threat to them
(there's a awful lot of traffic here), but scince they're terrified of all
the traffic noise I don't really have to worry about that. ;-)

How long my cats are going to live, I don't know. They're my first and are
now 3 years old... (Glad to know they have at least 7 to go, thanks folks
;-) )

Martijn.

"Five Cats" > schreef in bericht
...
> In article >, dgk
> > writes
> >On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> >>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> >>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >>story.LOL!
> >>
> >>
> >I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
> >indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
> >dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
> >my experience also.
> >
> >And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
> >much less than 10 years.
>
> Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
> 'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
> surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
> most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
> please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.
>
> --
> Five Cats

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:29 PM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...

> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> involved in an accident of course.

LOL this is a bit like saying that men live longer then women... unless they
die first, of course.

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:29 PM
"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...

> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> involved in an accident of course.

LOL this is a bit like saying that men live longer then women... unless they
die first, of course.

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:33 PM
"Five Cats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Michelle
> Fulton > writes
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
> >
> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
>
> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
> to bear arms'.

Nah, it's just because you Brits just can't hit what yer shootin' at, Chris.
Same reason we whooped y'all butts twice in a row about 200-odd years ago
;-)

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:33 PM
"Five Cats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Michelle
> Fulton > writes
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
> >
> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever attach
> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
>
> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower in
> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
> to bear arms'.

Nah, it's just because you Brits just can't hit what yer shootin' at, Chris.
Same reason we whooped y'all butts twice in a row about 200-odd years ago
;-)

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:33 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:07:37 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> There are dangers to cats in the US that
> >> simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
> >> more sensible to keep cats inside
> >
> >What dangers would those be?
>
> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.

Rabies would be another.

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:33 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:07:37 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> There are dangers to cats in the US that
> >> simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
> >> more sensible to keep cats inside
> >
> >What dangers would those be?
>
> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.

Rabies would be another.

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:42 PM
"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley. This
particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of his
that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of late
(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it seems),
Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much, much
worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with doing
much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice a
day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
outside to relieve themselves.

When you get a chance, stroll over to http://www.badtux.org//bob-faq.html -
a compendium Eric Green has put together of some of Baghdad Bob's most
famous pearls of wisdom.

ParrotRob
July 16th 03, 10:42 PM
"Ash Smith" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley. This
particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of his
that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of late
(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it seems),
Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much, much
worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with doing
much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice a
day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
outside to relieve themselves.

When you get a chance, stroll over to http://www.badtux.org//bob-faq.html -
a compendium Eric Green has put together of some of Baghdad Bob's most
famous pearls of wisdom.

Magic Mood Jeep©
July 17th 03, 04:11 AM
From what I understand, that is true. One of the reasons they have (had?) a
*six month* quarantine for cats & dogs entering the UK. Not sure if that is
still in place or not though, as I remember something not too long ago about
the quarantine being eliminated, but proof of rabies vaccination from a
veterinarian is now required for all dogs/cats entering the country.

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"Michelle Fulton" > wrote in message
...
> "ParrotRob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rabies would be another.
>
> No rabies in the UK? Hmmm...learn something everyday :-)
>
>
> M
>
>

Magic Mood Jeep©
July 17th 03, 04:11 AM
From what I understand, that is true. One of the reasons they have (had?) a
*six month* quarantine for cats & dogs entering the UK. Not sure if that is
still in place or not though, as I remember something not too long ago about
the quarantine being eliminated, but proof of rabies vaccination from a
veterinarian is now required for all dogs/cats entering the country.

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"Michelle Fulton" > wrote in message
...
> "ParrotRob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rabies would be another.
>
> No rabies in the UK? Hmmm...learn something everyday :-)
>
>
> M
>
>

Troy
July 17th 03, 07:07 AM
Five Cats > wrote in message >...
> >
> >Oh come, come Five Cats - the US only has about 5000% more gun deaths
> >than other first world nations.
>
> Isn't '5000%' just another way of saying 'much lower'?

Most definitely! Considering the difference is so massive (1 death for
every 30,000 citizens in the US as opposed to 1 death for every
750,000 in the UK) I thought you were being quite conservative in your
wording - I certainly wasn't arguing the point!

....anyway, I guess we are both getting a little off-track for this
group!

Troy.

Troy
July 17th 03, 07:07 AM
Five Cats > wrote in message >...
> >
> >Oh come, come Five Cats - the US only has about 5000% more gun deaths
> >than other first world nations.
>
> Isn't '5000%' just another way of saying 'much lower'?

Most definitely! Considering the difference is so massive (1 death for
every 30,000 citizens in the US as opposed to 1 death for every
750,000 in the UK) I thought you were being quite conservative in your
wording - I certainly wasn't arguing the point!

....anyway, I guess we are both getting a little off-track for this
group!

Troy.

Shazza
July 17th 03, 03:44 PM
Finally, a nice post devoid of references to live bait. Where I live it's
near impossible to have any kind of garden because of white tailed deer.
You can't believe any of the literature that deer will eat this, but not
that. Deer will eat everything and anything. And if there's one thing a
deer won't eat (I can't imagine it exists), rabbits or groundhogs will.
Living by a nature preserve has its pros and cons.
It's nice that you can keep your cats outside without any problems.
--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Martijn > wrote in message
>...
>In the Netherlands indoor as well as indoor/outdoor cats exist. My two cats
>started off as indoors, but after I moved I have a small garden to share
>with them. And now I sometimes have a hard time getting them back in the
>house when I leave or go to sleep. (I would hate it when the cats are
>outside, unable to get in, while it would start raining.... argh Dutch
>climate ;-) )
>
>The cats can even leave the garden and roam around the neighborhood (more
>gardens), which they do. In theory, cars would pose a big threat to them
>(there's a awful lot of traffic here), but scince they're terrified of all
>the traffic noise I don't really have to worry about that. ;-)
>
>How long my cats are going to live, I don't know. They're my first and are
>now 3 years old... (Glad to know they have at least 7 to go, thanks folks
>;-) )
>
>Martijn.
>
>"Five Cats" > schreef in bericht
...
>> In article >, dgk
>> > writes
>> >On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>> >>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>> >>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>> >>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>> >>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>> >>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>> >>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>> >>story.LOL!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>> >indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>> >dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>> >my experience also.
>> >
>> >And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>> >much less than 10 years.
>>
>> Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
>> 'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
>> surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
>> most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
>> please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.
>>
>> --
>> Five Cats
>
>

Shazza
July 17th 03, 03:44 PM
Finally, a nice post devoid of references to live bait. Where I live it's
near impossible to have any kind of garden because of white tailed deer.
You can't believe any of the literature that deer will eat this, but not
that. Deer will eat everything and anything. And if there's one thing a
deer won't eat (I can't imagine it exists), rabbits or groundhogs will.
Living by a nature preserve has its pros and cons.
It's nice that you can keep your cats outside without any problems.
--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Martijn > wrote in message
>...
>In the Netherlands indoor as well as indoor/outdoor cats exist. My two cats
>started off as indoors, but after I moved I have a small garden to share
>with them. And now I sometimes have a hard time getting them back in the
>house when I leave or go to sleep. (I would hate it when the cats are
>outside, unable to get in, while it would start raining.... argh Dutch
>climate ;-) )
>
>The cats can even leave the garden and roam around the neighborhood (more
>gardens), which they do. In theory, cars would pose a big threat to them
>(there's a awful lot of traffic here), but scince they're terrified of all
>the traffic noise I don't really have to worry about that. ;-)
>
>How long my cats are going to live, I don't know. They're my first and are
>now 3 years old... (Glad to know they have at least 7 to go, thanks folks
>;-) )
>
>Martijn.
>
>"Five Cats" > schreef in bericht
...
>> In article >, dgk
>> > writes
>> >On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>> >>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>> >>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>> >>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>> >>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>> >>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>> >>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>> >>story.LOL!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>> >indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>> >dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>> >my experience also.
>> >
>> >And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>> >much less than 10 years.
>>
>> Do you mean a cat that doesn't have an owner (that's the only kind of
>> 'strictly outdoor' cat I can think of - a feral)? If so it's hardly
>> surprising it doesn't live as long as a cat with an owner. In the UK
>> most cats are indoor/outoor (e.g. they come and go more or less as they
>> please) and live as long on average as indoor only cats.
>>
>> --
>> Five Cats
>
>

Shazza
July 17th 03, 03:44 PM
There really is no analogy here.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

ParrotRob wrote in message ...
>"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
>> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>> involved in an accident of course.
>
>LOL this is a bit like saying that men live longer then women... unless
they
>die first, of course.
>
>

Shazza
July 17th 03, 03:44 PM
There really is no analogy here.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

ParrotRob wrote in message ...
>"M.C. Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>
>> I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>> involved in an accident of course.
>
>LOL this is a bit like saying that men live longer then women... unless
they
>die first, of course.
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 17th 03, 04:59 PM
My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort of
like condos.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Shazza" > wrote in message
...
> It sounds like a smaller apartment building? Or condominiums?
>
> --
> Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html
>
> Chris Street wrote in message >...
> >On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:20:51 -0400, "Shazza"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>My house would sell for about $190,000. U.S. dollars. It's a nice
sized,
> >>modest looking home with a simple lower pitched gable roof, but what
> really
> >>attracted me to the house was the wooded backyard and the woods beyond
the
> >>yard including a creek. It's been designated as a city nature preserve.
> >>Many wealthy Americans will build or purchase newer homes that look like
> >>manors or estates. Some of these homes start at $275,000. and upwards
> into
> >>the $600,000. range. Many of these homes have the illusion of being
much
> >>larger because the builder will vault the celings or raise them very
high
> >>and add high pitched fancy roof lines.
> >>
> >>My entire open doorway from the kitchen to the dining room is filled
with
> >>boxes. ;)
> >>
> >>Is your flat a house or an apartment?
> >
> >That's not really a question that makes much sense here - a flat by
> >definition cannot be a house. IT would bestbe described as a 1 bedroom
> >apartment I guess in what are called masionettes - 2 storey buildings
> >with upstairs and downstairs self contained units eight of which are in
> >each block. I'll post a picture if you are really interested (and I can
> >find one!)
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> >The other 42% are made up later on.
> >In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 17th 03, 04:59 PM
My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort of
like condos.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Shazza" > wrote in message
...
> It sounds like a smaller apartment building? Or condominiums?
>
> --
> Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html
>
> Chris Street wrote in message >...
> >On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:20:51 -0400, "Shazza"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>My house would sell for about $190,000. U.S. dollars. It's a nice
sized,
> >>modest looking home with a simple lower pitched gable roof, but what
> really
> >>attracted me to the house was the wooded backyard and the woods beyond
the
> >>yard including a creek. It's been designated as a city nature preserve.
> >>Many wealthy Americans will build or purchase newer homes that look like
> >>manors or estates. Some of these homes start at $275,000. and upwards
> into
> >>the $600,000. range. Many of these homes have the illusion of being
much
> >>larger because the builder will vault the celings or raise them very
high
> >>and add high pitched fancy roof lines.
> >>
> >>My entire open doorway from the kitchen to the dining room is filled
with
> >>boxes. ;)
> >>
> >>Is your flat a house or an apartment?
> >
> >That's not really a question that makes much sense here - a flat by
> >definition cannot be a house. IT would bestbe described as a 1 bedroom
> >apartment I guess in what are called masionettes - 2 storey buildings
> >with upstairs and downstairs self contained units eight of which are in
> >each block. I'll post a picture if you are really interested (and I can
> >find one!)
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> >The other 42% are made up later on.
> >In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.
>
>

Shaun
July 17th 03, 06:16 PM
I keep mine in a small wooden box. Keeps him safe and warm. He doesn't like
to roam much...



"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
...
> "Ash Smith" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > >
> > > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Bob.
> > >
> >
> > What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> > outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> > what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
> though
> > it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
> that
> > it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out
all
> > the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
> bth
> > house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
> all
> > they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
> Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
> away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
This
> particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of his
> that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
> search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
late
> (he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it seems),
> Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
much
> worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
doing
> much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
a
> day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
> outside to relieve themselves.
>
> When you get a chance, stroll over to
http://www.badtux.org//bob-faq.html -
> a compendium Eric Green has put together of some of Baghdad Bob's most
> famous pearls of wisdom.
>
>

Shaun
July 17th 03, 06:16 PM
I keep mine in a small wooden box. Keeps him safe and warm. He doesn't like
to roam much...



"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
...
> "Ash Smith" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > >
> > > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Bob.
> > >
> >
> > What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> > outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> > what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as
> though
> > it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say
> that
> > it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out
all
> > the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2
> bth
> > house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and
> all
> > they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.
>
> Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
> away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
This
> particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of his
> that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
> search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
late
> (he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it seems),
> Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
much
> worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
doing
> much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
a
> day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
> outside to relieve themselves.
>
> When you get a chance, stroll over to
http://www.badtux.org//bob-faq.html -
> a compendium Eric Green has put together of some of Baghdad Bob's most
> famous pearls of wisdom.
>
>

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 06:48 PM
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:14:43 -0700, "Ash Smith" >
wrote:

>
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>
>What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
>outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
>what, they love it, and have it made.

Sadly there are a lot of animal abusers like yourself who manage to
delude themselves in to thinking an indoor cat can be happy.

> Your argument is worthless, as though
>it is somehow cruel to keep them inside.

Common sense should tell you that.

>It's a better argument to say that
>it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
>the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
>house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
>they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Good. Glad to see you face fact. Now, either start treating them like
cats, of find them a proper home.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 06:48 PM
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:14:43 -0700, "Ash Smith" >
wrote:

>
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>
>What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
>outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
>what, they love it, and have it made.

Sadly there are a lot of animal abusers like yourself who manage to
delude themselves in to thinking an indoor cat can be happy.

> Your argument is worthless, as though
>it is somehow cruel to keep them inside.

Common sense should tell you that.

>It's a better argument to say that
>it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
>the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
>house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
>they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Good. Glad to see you face fact. Now, either start treating them like
cats, of find them a proper home.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 06:54 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:43:54 -0500, victoria
> wrote:


>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>>|
>>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>| story.LOL!
>>|
>>
>>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>>involved in an accident of course.
>>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>>
>>
>>Carola
>>
>
Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.


> Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
>find them posted in many places of well established science.

Can you? Sorry, but even a top posting moron like you should know
better than that.

> Unlesss
>you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
>well.they will know.

The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.

Frankly, until you can come up with any credible research, you would
do better to stop promoting animal abuse.

--
Bob.

Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until
we hear you talk.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 06:54 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:43:54 -0500, victoria
> wrote:


>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
>>|
>>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>| story.LOL!
>>|
>>
>>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
>>involved in an accident of course.
>>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
>>
>>
>>Carola
>>
>
Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.


> Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
>find them posted in many places of well established science.

Can you? Sorry, but even a top posting moron like you should know
better than that.

> Unlesss
>you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
>well.they will know.

The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.

Frankly, until you can come up with any credible research, you would
do better to stop promoting animal abuse.

--
Bob.

Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until
we hear you talk.

Martijn
July 17th 03, 08:38 PM
Once you turn an indoor cat into an outdoor cat, you can't change it back.
Maybe that's what Bob means. (Although I don't like his unfriendly tone
btw.)

"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:43:54 -0500, victoria
> > wrote:
>
>
> >On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> >>|
> >>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> >>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> >>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >>| story.LOL!
> >>|
> >>
> >>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> >>involved in an accident of course.
> >>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
> >>
> >>
> >>Carola
> >>
> >
> Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
> service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
> the same mistake again.
>
>
> > Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
> >find them posted in many places of well established science.
>
> Can you? Sorry, but even a top posting moron like you should know
> better than that.
>
> > Unlesss
> >you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
> >well.they will know.
>
> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
> smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
> will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
> has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
> grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.
>
> Frankly, until you can come up with any credible research, you would
> do better to stop promoting animal abuse.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until
> we hear you talk.

Martijn
July 17th 03, 08:38 PM
Once you turn an indoor cat into an outdoor cat, you can't change it back.
Maybe that's what Bob means. (Although I don't like his unfriendly tone
btw.)

"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:43:54 -0500, victoria
> > wrote:
>
>
> >On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:59:21 +0200, "M.C. Mullen"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"victoria" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> >>|
> >>| It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
> >>| strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
> >>| outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
> >>| the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
> >>| scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
> >>| All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
> >>| point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
> >>| story.LOL!
> >>|
> >>
> >>I have heard and read that *outdoor* cats live longer...unless they're
> >>involved in an accident of course.
> >>So it seems these studies (yours and mine!) are all made up.
> >>
> >>
> >>Carola
> >>
> >
> Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
> service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
> the same mistake again.
>
>
> > Mine are far from made up. you only need do research and you can
> >find them posted in many places of well established science.
>
> Can you? Sorry, but even a top posting moron like you should know
> better than that.
>
> > Unlesss
> >you are too lazy to care to educate yourself. Go ask your local vet as
> >well.they will know.
>
> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
> smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
> will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
> has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
> grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.
>
> Frankly, until you can come up with any credible research, you would
> do better to stop promoting animal abuse.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until
> we hear you talk.

Martijn
July 17th 03, 08:45 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht >
wrote:
>
>
> Sadly there are a lot of animal abusers like yourself who manage to
> delude themselves in to thinking an indoor cat can be happy.
>

Okay I guess I was wrong in my posting a few minutes ago.

Martijn
July 17th 03, 08:45 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht >
wrote:
>
>
> Sadly there are a lot of animal abusers like yourself who manage to
> delude themselves in to thinking an indoor cat can be happy.
>

Okay I guess I was wrong in my posting a few minutes ago.

Five Cats
July 17th 03, 09:33 PM
In article >, Magic Mood
Jeep© > writes
>From what I understand, that is true. One of the reasons they have (had?) a
>*six month* quarantine for cats & dogs entering the UK. Not sure if that is
>still in place or not though, as I remember something not too long ago about
>the quarantine being eliminated, but proof of rabies vaccination from a
>veterinarian is now required for all dogs/cats entering the country.

It certainly is true that there is almost no rabies in the UK - it made
the headlines when someone working with bats died of an obscure strain
earlier this year.

Quarantine has been eliminated for *some* countries (originally some
European ones) for animals that are vaccinated, have been shown to have
developed a response to the vaccine and which meet a number of other
criteria. It is quite complicated to fulfil the conditions correctly.
I think the US has now been added to the list - more details are at the
DEFRA site.


>

--
Five Cats

Five Cats
July 17th 03, 09:33 PM
In article >, Magic Mood
Jeep© > writes
>From what I understand, that is true. One of the reasons they have (had?) a
>*six month* quarantine for cats & dogs entering the UK. Not sure if that is
>still in place or not though, as I remember something not too long ago about
>the quarantine being eliminated, but proof of rabies vaccination from a
>veterinarian is now required for all dogs/cats entering the country.

It certainly is true that there is almost no rabies in the UK - it made
the headlines when someone working with bats died of an obscure strain
earlier this year.

Quarantine has been eliminated for *some* countries (originally some
European ones) for animals that are vaccinated, have been shown to have
developed a response to the vaccine and which meet a number of other
criteria. It is quite complicated to fulfil the conditions correctly.
I think the US has now been added to the list - more details are at the
DEFRA site.


>

--
Five Cats

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:03 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>or care about these facts.

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.

--
Bob.

You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your
friends so they may learn as well.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:03 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>or care about these facts.

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.

--
Bob.

You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your
friends so they may learn as well.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:09 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:49:47 -0400, dgk
> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>story.LOL!
>>
>>
>I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>my experience also.
>
>And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>much less than 10 years.

Average life for a truly feral cat is put at about 4 years. However,
if you remove from the figure those that die in their first 6 months,
then the average goes up to 7 to 9 years.

An indoor/outdoor cat, given reasonable food and adequate vet care
should be able to average 12 to 15 years these days, with many living
in to their 20s.

--
Bob.

Call my cat? No, I just run the can opener.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:09 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:49:47 -0400, dgk
> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0500, victoria
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It has been proven, and any decent vet will back this up, that a
>>strictly outdoor cat has the aversage lifespan of 10 years while an
>>outrdoor/indoor 15 years and an indoor cat 20 years. this is due to
>>the fact they are not having to stress themselves out over teritory or
>>scrap in fights with each other for territory,food or mating rights.
>>All my cats have been rescued strays and love being indooors,to th
>>point of not even wanting outdoors at all-garage a different
>>story.LOL!
>>
>>
>I agree with your general point but can't believe those numbers. An
>indoor cat has an average lifespan of 20 years? No way. Most cats are
>dead by 12 or 13, even indoor ones, according to my vet. And that is
>my experience also.
>
>And I would think that a strictly outdoor cat would have a lifespan of
>much less than 10 years.

Average life for a truly feral cat is put at about 4 years. However,
if you remove from the figure those that die in their first 6 months,
then the average goes up to 7 to 9 years.

An indoor/outdoor cat, given reasonable food and adequate vet care
should be able to average 12 to 15 years these days, with many living
in to their 20s.

--
Bob.

Call my cat? No, I just run the can opener.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:27 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:57:56 +0100, Five Cats >
wrote:

>In article >, Chris Street
> writes
>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 GMT, "Nina S." >
>>wrote:
><snip>
>>>
>>>I truly believe that cats are far safer, healthier, and yes, even happier at
>>>times, inside than out. But, that is just my opinion.
>>
>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>or care about these facts.
>
>Neither do the people who are as dogmatic that cats should never be let
>out as Bob is that they should not be kept in all the time.
>
>Personally I choose where I live now as safe for them to go out, and
>will continue to do so every time I move house whilst I still have cats.

In a very long thread a couple of years ago, this came out as the
major difference in UK cat owners - we would not move to a home where
we considered it unsafe for a cat to go out. The needs of the cats
come first.

--
Bob.

Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.

Bob Brenchley.
July 17th 03, 10:27 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:57:56 +0100, Five Cats >
wrote:

>In article >, Chris Street
> writes
>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 GMT, "Nina S." >
>>wrote:
><snip>
>>>
>>>I truly believe that cats are far safer, healthier, and yes, even happier at
>>>times, inside than out. But, that is just my opinion.
>>
>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>or care about these facts.
>
>Neither do the people who are as dogmatic that cats should never be let
>out as Bob is that they should not be kept in all the time.
>
>Personally I choose where I live now as safe for them to go out, and
>will continue to do so every time I move house whilst I still have cats.

In a very long thread a couple of years ago, this came out as the
major difference in UK cat owners - we would not move to a home where
we considered it unsafe for a cat to go out. The needs of the cats
come first.

--
Bob.

Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 01:48 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort
of
> >like condos.
> >
> >Cathy
>
> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced housing.
> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.

So by self-contained, you meant separate - space between the ea.
bldg./detached? I assumed you *meant* a terrace of houses, but each one an
apt. unto itself.

I always though a flat was a one-floor apt. (That would not include a
one-floor house.) IOW, "Flat to Let" = "Apartment for Rent".

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 01:48 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort
of
> >like condos.
> >
> >Cathy
>
> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced housing.
> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.

So by self-contained, you meant separate - space between the ea.
bldg./detached? I assumed you *meant* a terrace of houses, but each one an
apt. unto itself.

I always though a flat was a one-floor apt. (That would not include a
one-floor house.) IOW, "Flat to Let" = "Apartment for Rent".

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 01:50 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
> your facts straight first.

Bob will never get his facts straight. Just ignore him, or killfile him,
like everyone else & you'll be happier.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 01:50 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
> your facts straight first.

Bob will never get his facts straight. Just ignore him, or killfile him,
like everyone else & you'll be happier.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Magic Mood Jeep©
July 18th 03, 02:24 AM
I always thought that a 'flat' was the UK equivalent to an apartment in the
US....

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort
of
> >like condos.
> >
> >Cathy
>
> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced housing.
> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.
> --
> 79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> The other 42% are made up later on.
> In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Magic Mood Jeep©
July 18th 03, 02:24 AM
I always thought that a 'flat' was the UK equivalent to an apartment in the
US....

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here. Sort
of
> >like condos.
> >
> >Cathy
>
> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced housing.
> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.
> --
> 79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> The other 42% are made up later on.
> In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Troy
July 18th 03, 02:26 AM
Five Cats > wrote in message >...
> >spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
> >is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
> >desert
>
> Maybe not since the ancestors of the domestic cat were living in the
> Egyptian deserts - cats are well-adapted to desert life.

I'm certainly not surprised that they can survive in the desert, just
the speed at which the cat has managed to spread across Australia.
Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US - that's
very fast!

> >
> >By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
> >grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
> >been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.
>
> That sounds like an urban myth. If feral domestic cats could grow that
> big so would domestic domestic cats. The only way they can really be
> that large is if there has been some interbreeding with another species
> of cat, and one closely enough related that the offspring are fertile.

It is not an urban myth - I have seen them! There are virtually no
predators and the lifestyle is almost perfect for a cat. It is not
about how healthy the animals are but about the basic laws of nature -
animals get this big over generations because the biggest and
strongest will always flourish, so in a perfect environment they will
become large very quickly. In other parts of the world cats can not
get bigger because there is competition from the bigger animals whose
niche they are taking - usually bigger cat species. Domestic animals
are not bred for the biggest and strongest but for the nicest features
and behaviour therefore it is unlikely they will grow much in size. If
we were to selectively breed cats for size then we could have very big
cats very quickly too.

The only relationship my comments have to urban myths are the fact
that these cats are commonly mistaken for Pumas!

Troy
July 18th 03, 02:26 AM
Five Cats > wrote in message >...
> >spread across the Australian continent in less than 100 years! Which
> >is amazing considering so much of Australia is dry and arrid if not
> >desert
>
> Maybe not since the ancestors of the domestic cat were living in the
> Egyptian deserts - cats are well-adapted to desert life.

I'm certainly not surprised that they can survive in the desert, just
the speed at which the cat has managed to spread across Australia.
Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US - that's
very fast!

> >
> >By the way, because of the lack of competition for wild cats here they
> >grow to immense sizes up to 60lbs! No wonder that some sightings have
> >been mistaken for pumas and other big cats.
>
> That sounds like an urban myth. If feral domestic cats could grow that
> big so would domestic domestic cats. The only way they can really be
> that large is if there has been some interbreeding with another species
> of cat, and one closely enough related that the offspring are fertile.

It is not an urban myth - I have seen them! There are virtually no
predators and the lifestyle is almost perfect for a cat. It is not
about how healthy the animals are but about the basic laws of nature -
animals get this big over generations because the biggest and
strongest will always flourish, so in a perfect environment they will
become large very quickly. In other parts of the world cats can not
get bigger because there is competition from the bigger animals whose
niche they are taking - usually bigger cat species. Domestic animals
are not bred for the biggest and strongest but for the nicest features
and behaviour therefore it is unlikely they will grow much in size. If
we were to selectively breed cats for size then we could have very big
cats very quickly too.

The only relationship my comments have to urban myths are the fact
that these cats are commonly mistaken for Pumas!

Cheryl
July 18th 03, 02:37 AM
"Troy" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
that's
> very fast!
>
Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
killed.


[1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

Cheryl
July 18th 03, 02:37 AM
"Troy" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
that's
> very fast!
>
Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
killed.


[1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 03:30 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> "Troy" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> > generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
> that's
> > very fast!
> >
> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> killed.
>
>
> [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
> tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
> so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
deal.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 03:30 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> "Troy" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> > generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
> that's
> > very fast!
> >
> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> killed.
>
>
> [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
> tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
> so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
deal.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 03:37 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:48:54 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here.
Sort
> >of
> >> >like condos.
> >> >
> >> >Cathy
> >>
> >> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced
housing.
> >> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> >> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.
> >
> >So by self-contained, you meant separate - space between the ea.
> >bldg./detached? I assumed you *meant* a terrace of houses, but each one
an
> >apt. unto itself.
>
> Sorry, self contained in the UK means it has all it's own services, ie
> kitchen, bathroom etc.

That's what I thought you meant the first time. A shared wall, but not
shared space.

> Many large houses are converted to flats - some
> share facilites in which case they are colloquially known as a bedsit,
> others are "self contained flats in a converted house"
>
> >I always though a flat was a one-floor apt. (That would not include a
> >one-floor house.) IOW, "Flat to Let" = "Apartment for Rent".
>
> One floor houses are bungalows - either semi detatched or detatched.

Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top floor
usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.

> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
>
> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.

Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 03:37 AM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:48:54 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:59:37 -0400, "Cathy Friedmann"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >My _guess_ is that rowhouses would be the closest equivalent here.
Sort
> >of
> >> >like condos.
> >> >
> >> >Cathy
> >>
> >> Not really. Row houses are what we would probably call terraced
housing.
> >> A flat is a generic description of any dwelling that is in a block of
> >> two or more (usually four upwards) and is on one floor.
> >
> >So by self-contained, you meant separate - space between the ea.
> >bldg./detached? I assumed you *meant* a terrace of houses, but each one
an
> >apt. unto itself.
>
> Sorry, self contained in the UK means it has all it's own services, ie
> kitchen, bathroom etc.

That's what I thought you meant the first time. A shared wall, but not
shared space.

> Many large houses are converted to flats - some
> share facilites in which case they are colloquially known as a bedsit,
> others are "self contained flats in a converted house"
>
> >I always though a flat was a one-floor apt. (That would not include a
> >one-floor house.) IOW, "Flat to Let" = "Apartment for Rent".
>
> One floor houses are bungalows - either semi detatched or detatched.

Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top floor
usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.

> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
>
> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.

Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:40 AM
I put a fence around a garden that was located out back, next to the woods.
The deer leaped the fence and were seen grazing inside the fence on several
occasions. Not one tomato plant, squash plant, or cucumber plant survived.
Deer, supposedly, do not eat tomato plants as they are poisonous and too
acidic, but trust me, they eat tomato plants. I've seen them break off
branches and chomp them. The city allows you to install fences no more than
6 ft. high, but I've been told deer can leap a 7 ft. fence. The six foot
fence would probably keep them out. My neighbor found some tall steel
anchors and installed a make-shift chicken wire fence around them. It works
great, but is a real eyesore and there's not a gate or door that lets you
into the garden area. I just decided to plant a small garden next to the
house and be done with it. I'll probably be lucky to get several tomatoes.
The other day, after I took some clothes off the clothesline, I turned and
spotted a baby deer panicking in the backyard, running around in circles,
then dashing into the woods behind my neighbor's house. I just stood
helplessly, not knowing what to do. The baby deer looked so scared. I
would be more apt to install a cat fence (if there is such a thing) than a
deer fence. ;)

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Chris Street wrote in message

>Silly question maybe but can you not put a fence up?
>--
>79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
>The other 42% are made up later on.
>In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:40 AM
I put a fence around a garden that was located out back, next to the woods.
The deer leaped the fence and were seen grazing inside the fence on several
occasions. Not one tomato plant, squash plant, or cucumber plant survived.
Deer, supposedly, do not eat tomato plants as they are poisonous and too
acidic, but trust me, they eat tomato plants. I've seen them break off
branches and chomp them. The city allows you to install fences no more than
6 ft. high, but I've been told deer can leap a 7 ft. fence. The six foot
fence would probably keep them out. My neighbor found some tall steel
anchors and installed a make-shift chicken wire fence around them. It works
great, but is a real eyesore and there's not a gate or door that lets you
into the garden area. I just decided to plant a small garden next to the
house and be done with it. I'll probably be lucky to get several tomatoes.
The other day, after I took some clothes off the clothesline, I turned and
spotted a baby deer panicking in the backyard, running around in circles,
then dashing into the woods behind my neighbor's house. I just stood
helplessly, not knowing what to do. The baby deer looked so scared. I
would be more apt to install a cat fence (if there is such a thing) than a
deer fence. ;)

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Chris Street wrote in message

>Silly question maybe but can you not put a fence up?
>--
>79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
>The other 42% are made up later on.
>In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:45 AM
It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
giving birth every two years.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
>
>> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
>> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
>> killed.
>>
>>
>> [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
>> tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
>> so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.
>
>Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
>she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
>deal.
>
>Cathy
>
>--
>"Staccato signals of constant information..."
>("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>>
>>
>
>

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:45 AM
It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
giving birth every two years.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
>
>> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
>> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
>> killed.
>>
>>
>> [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
>> tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
>> so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.
>
>Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
>she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
>deal.
>
>Cathy
>
>--
>"Staccato signals of constant information..."
>("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>>
>>
>
>

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:53 AM
Bungalows here are 1 1/2 story homes with one large bedroom on the entire
second floor. The main living areas; bathroom, kitchen, and main bedrooms
are downstairs. I've never heard of a terraced bungalow and have no idea
what it looks like. My house is a center hall colonial and that means that
when you open the front door, you enter a foyer or center hall that leads to
rooms on the left, right, and straight ahead.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
>
>Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top floor
>usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
>(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.
>
>> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
>>
>> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
>> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.
>
>Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
>they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.
>
>Cathy
>
>--
>"Staccato signals of constant information..."
>("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
>
>

Shazza
July 18th 03, 04:53 AM
Bungalows here are 1 1/2 story homes with one large bedroom on the entire
second floor. The main living areas; bathroom, kitchen, and main bedrooms
are downstairs. I've never heard of a terraced bungalow and have no idea
what it looks like. My house is a center hall colonial and that means that
when you open the front door, you enter a foyer or center hall that leads to
rooms on the left, right, and straight ahead.

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
>
>Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top floor
>usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
>(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.
>
>> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
>>
>> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
>> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.
>
>Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
>they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.
>
>Cathy
>
>--
>"Staccato signals of constant information..."
>("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
>
>

Dionysus
July 18th 03, 04:56 AM
A JACKASS NAMED"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in
message:

> >Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
> >away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
This
> >particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of
his
> >that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
> >search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
late
> >(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it
seems),
> >Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
much
> >worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
doing
> >much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
a
> >day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
> >outside to relieve themselves.
> >
> Abuse Report Filed.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.


Bob, seriously. I just got here. You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people for
the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my veterinarian
fiancee says is essential to feline health. My cat stays inside AT ALL TIMES
and is quite healthy. For that matter, would someone living in New York City
be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
painful.

Dionysus
July 18th 03, 04:56 AM
A JACKASS NAMED"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in
message:

> >Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
> >away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
This
> >particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of
his
> >that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
> >search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
late
> >(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it
seems),
> >Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
much
> >worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
doing
> >much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
a
> >day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
> >outside to relieve themselves.
> >
> Abuse Report Filed.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.


Bob, seriously. I just got here. You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people for
the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my veterinarian
fiancee says is essential to feline health. My cat stays inside AT ALL TIMES
and is quite healthy. For that matter, would someone living in New York City
be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
painful.

Troy
July 18th 03, 09:02 AM
"Cathy Friedmann" > wrote in message >...
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Troy" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > >
> > > Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> > > generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
> that's
> > > very fast!
> > >
> > Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> > like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> > killed.
> >
> >
> > [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
> > tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
> > so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

No, none of it is based on fact - I was just assuming. I don't know
what the birth rate is in the wild, nor the survival rate of the
young. Perhaps I should have guessed a successful litter every 1 year?
Either way it was just to illustrate how fast a population spread.

> Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
> she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
> deal.

I was under the impression that a female cat must mate twice to become
pregnant - the first to induce ovulation and the second to get
pregnant?

Troy
July 18th 03, 09:02 AM
"Cathy Friedmann" > wrote in message >...
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Troy" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > >
> > > Assuming a cat gives birth to kittens every 2 years, thats only 50
> > > generations to cross the nation a little smaller than the US -
> that's
> > > very fast!
> > >
> > Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> > like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> > killed.
> >
> >
> > [1] I don't have the exact stats handy (too lazy to look them up
> > tonight) but intact females go into heat way more than female dogs do
> > so I hope you aren't basing that statement on dogs.

No, none of it is based on fact - I was just assuming. I don't know
what the birth rate is in the wild, nor the survival rate of the
young. Perhaps I should have guessed a successful litter every 1 year?
Either way it was just to illustrate how fast a population spread.

> Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
> she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
> deal.

I was under the impression that a female cat must mate twice to become
pregnant - the first to induce ovulation and the second to get
pregnant?

Troy
July 18th 03, 11:00 AM
"Shazza" > wrote in message >...
> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
> giving birth every two years.

Yes, I was.

> >> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> >> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> >> killed.
> >
> >Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
> >she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
> >deal.
> >
> >Cathy

Okay I've looked it up and the details are...

A cat reaches puberty at between 4-12 months
A cat gestation lasts approximately 2 months
A cat is able to get pregnant again at between 4-6 weeks
A cat starts ovulation 24-48 hours after coitus

Which means that in the first 10 years of a female cats life it, at
most, can produce 40 litters, an average best of 4 per year - and
that's if her cycles fall into place, she reaches puberty at 4 months,
etc. to suit these calculations - and an average worst of 2 per year.
So, in the wild I'd imagine the figure is on the lower side, so I
would expect about 2 per year to be a fair guestimate?

Troy
July 18th 03, 11:00 AM
"Shazza" > wrote in message >...
> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
> giving birth every two years.

Yes, I was.

> >> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
> >> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
> >> killed.
> >
> >Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
> >she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
> >deal.
> >
> >Cathy

Okay I've looked it up and the details are...

A cat reaches puberty at between 4-12 months
A cat gestation lasts approximately 2 months
A cat is able to get pregnant again at between 4-6 weeks
A cat starts ovulation 24-48 hours after coitus

Which means that in the first 10 years of a female cats life it, at
most, can produce 40 litters, an average best of 4 per year - and
that's if her cycles fall into place, she reaches puberty at 4 months,
etc. to suit these calculations - and an average worst of 2 per year.
So, in the wild I'd imagine the figure is on the lower side, so I
would expect about 2 per year to be a fair guestimate?

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 11:07 AM
"Shazza" > wrote in message
...
> Bungalows here are 1 1/2 story homes with one large bedroom on the entire
> second floor. The main living areas; bathroom, kitchen, and main
bedrooms
> are downstairs. I've never heard of a terraced bungalow and have no idea
> what it looks like. My house is a center hall colonial and that means
that
> when you open the front door, you enter a foyer or center hall that leads
to
> rooms on the left, right, and straight ahead.

Bungalows don't always have a second floor (one w/ bedrooms Vs. attic).

There are no terraced (connected) bungalows here in the States, AFAIK.

(I have a side hall colonial.)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
> --
> Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html
>
> Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
> >
> >Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top
floor
> >usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
> >(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.
> >
> >> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
> >>
> >> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
> >> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.
> >
> >Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
> >they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.
> >
> >Cathy
> >
> >--
> >"Staccato signals of constant information..."
> >("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
July 18th 03, 11:07 AM
"Shazza" > wrote in message
...
> Bungalows here are 1 1/2 story homes with one large bedroom on the entire
> second floor. The main living areas; bathroom, kitchen, and main
bedrooms
> are downstairs. I've never heard of a terraced bungalow and have no idea
> what it looks like. My house is a center hall colonial and that means
that
> when you open the front door, you enter a foyer or center hall that leads
to
> rooms on the left, right, and straight ahead.

Bungalows don't always have a second floor (one w/ bedrooms Vs. attic).

There are no terraced (connected) bungalows here in the States, AFAIK.

(I have a side hall colonial.)

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
> --
> Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html
>
> Cathy Friedmann wrote in message ...
> >
> >Right; a bungalow here is one floor, or some times two - with the top
floor
> >usually having some slanted ceilings. It's always a single-family house
> >(detached), & usually (but not always) was built in the Craftsman style.
> >
> >> Terraced bunaglows are almost non-existant.
> >>
> >> Apartments as I recall could be more than one floor? Flats in the UK
> >> usually are not but there are exceptions of course.
> >
> >Yes, an apt. can be one floor (usually is) - or more, depending upon how
> >they were built, or how the house was later divided up into apts.
> >
> >Cathy
> >
> >--
> >"Staccato signals of constant information..."
> >("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
> >
> >
> >
>
>

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:07 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
<snip blah blah blah>

Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't), I believe in this case we're
talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:07 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
<snip blah blah blah>

Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't), I believe in this case we're
talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:11 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:33:08 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Five Cats" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >, Michelle
> >> Fulton > writes
> >> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
> >> >
> >> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever
attach
> >> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
> >>
> >> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
> >> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
> >> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower
in
> >> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
> >> to bear arms'.
> >
> >Nah, it's just because you Brits just can't hit what yer shootin' at,
Chris.
>
> I can shoot a one inch grouping with a bolt action at 800 yards - on
> iron sights.
>
> >Same reason we whooped y'all butts twice in a row about 200-odd years ago
> >;-)
>
> Only because the French helped you m'lad.

I'm not sure which is MORE embarrassing - losing to a bunch of rag-tag
colonists, or losing to a bunch of rag-tag colonists "assisted" by the
FRENCH, of all people ;-)

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:11 PM
"Chris Street" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:33:08 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Five Cats" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >, Michelle
> >> Fulton > writes
> >> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
> >> >
> >> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK? Do badgers or foxes ever
attach
> >> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
> >>
> >> It is not illegal to own firearms in the UK, but they all have to be
> >> licensed so there are far fewer of them per head, and almost no legal
> >> weapons in towns. the incidence of firearms crime is much, much lower
in
> >> the UK than the US probably as a direct result of there being no 'right
> >> to bear arms'.
> >
> >Nah, it's just because you Brits just can't hit what yer shootin' at,
Chris.
>
> I can shoot a one inch grouping with a bolt action at 800 yards - on
> iron sights.
>
> >Same reason we whooped y'all butts twice in a row about 200-odd years ago
> >;-)
>
> Only because the French helped you m'lad.

I'm not sure which is MORE embarrassing - losing to a bunch of rag-tag
colonists, or losing to a bunch of rag-tag colonists "assisted" by the
FRENCH, of all people ;-)

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:17 PM
"Dionysus" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Ahem.
>
> Coyotes.
> Cougars.
> Wolverines.
> Rattlesnakes.
> Crocodiles.
> Taxi cabs.
> Garbage trucks.
> Pit bulls.
> People who don't like cats.
> Eagles. Ospreys. Owls. Hawks. Ravens (and we're talking the 7-foot
wingspan
> ravens here) and turkey vultures.
>
> Perhaps, Bobby boy, you forget that more cat owners live in the US than in
> the UK, where we deal with a good deal more in the way of animal threats.
> And frankly, you're taking a **** on way too much of your "information".
> You've no clue what half of the crap you're spewing comes from - in fact,
> you're making it up.

Dionysus - If you think THIS is bad, check out some of the other **** that
has come out of his mouth: www.badtux.org/bob-faq.html

>
> At the very least, I know where mine comes from - the college of
Veterinary
> science at Washington State. So BEFORE you begin yammering up the praises
of
> how wonderful UK pet owners are - please keep in mind two things - one, I
> (and many, many others) don't give a rat's ass how pampered your cat's
> existence is, nor do we care if you choose to make sure your life is
> centered around that of your cat's. I personally find that quite sad, and
> have broken up with girls because they couldn't leave their poor little
> Fluffy alone, even for a single night.
>
> So do enjoy your cat's company, oh Bobby. Because sure as hell your
> neighbors will think you completely bat**** crazy.
>
> You've certainly proved it well here.

That's nothing new - he's been doing that for quite some time.

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:17 PM
"Dionysus" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Ahem.
>
> Coyotes.
> Cougars.
> Wolverines.
> Rattlesnakes.
> Crocodiles.
> Taxi cabs.
> Garbage trucks.
> Pit bulls.
> People who don't like cats.
> Eagles. Ospreys. Owls. Hawks. Ravens (and we're talking the 7-foot
wingspan
> ravens here) and turkey vultures.
>
> Perhaps, Bobby boy, you forget that more cat owners live in the US than in
> the UK, where we deal with a good deal more in the way of animal threats.
> And frankly, you're taking a **** on way too much of your "information".
> You've no clue what half of the crap you're spewing comes from - in fact,
> you're making it up.

Dionysus - If you think THIS is bad, check out some of the other **** that
has come out of his mouth: www.badtux.org/bob-faq.html

>
> At the very least, I know where mine comes from - the college of
Veterinary
> science at Washington State. So BEFORE you begin yammering up the praises
of
> how wonderful UK pet owners are - please keep in mind two things - one, I
> (and many, many others) don't give a rat's ass how pampered your cat's
> existence is, nor do we care if you choose to make sure your life is
> centered around that of your cat's. I personally find that quite sad, and
> have broken up with girls because they couldn't leave their poor little
> Fluffy alone, even for a single night.
>
> So do enjoy your cat's company, oh Bobby. Because sure as hell your
> neighbors will think you completely bat**** crazy.
>
> You've certainly proved it well here.

That's nothing new - he's been doing that for quite some time.

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:22 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:37:56 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
> > wrote:
>
> >"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Rabies would be another.
> >
> >No rabies in the UK? Hmmm...learn something everyday :-)
> >
> >
> No, no rabies in the UK, and very little in most of Europe.
>
> It may interest you to know that Rabies could be reduced in the USA,
> to a level where it would be almost non-existant, if only the US
> government would fund some of the projects proposed by Parks and Game.

Parks and Game? What the hell is Parks and Game?

And oh yeah, we could eliminate rabies altogether - only to KEEP it out we'd
have to erect a gigantic fence across our thousands of miles of land border
with Canada and Mexico to keep THEIR rabies out. Not all of us are tiny
little island nations, remember.

ParrotRob
July 18th 03, 01:22 PM
"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:37:56 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
> > wrote:
>
> >"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Rabies would be another.
> >
> >No rabies in the UK? Hmmm...learn something everyday :-)
> >
> >
> No, no rabies in the UK, and very little in most of Europe.
>
> It may interest you to know that Rabies could be reduced in the USA,
> to a level where it would be almost non-existant, if only the US
> government would fund some of the projects proposed by Parks and Game.

Parks and Game? What the hell is Parks and Game?

And oh yeah, we could eliminate rabies altogether - only to KEEP it out we'd
have to erect a gigantic fence across our thousands of miles of land border
with Canada and Mexico to keep THEIR rabies out. Not all of us are tiny
little island nations, remember.

*~*SooZy*~*
July 18th 03, 01:31 PM
"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
> ...
> > The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
> <snip blah blah blah>
>
> Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't), I believe in this case we're
> talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.
>
>
Hey ParrotRob that's a bit unfair! saying UK is a third world country....
if you're not careful we will ship Bob Brenchley over to you LOL
don't know what his whole post said cos I kill filed him ages ago!

*~*SooZy*~*
July 18th 03, 01:31 PM
"ParrotRob" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
> ...
> > The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
> <snip blah blah blah>
>
> Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't), I believe in this case we're
> talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.
>
>
Hey ParrotRob that's a bit unfair! saying UK is a third world country....
if you're not careful we will ship Bob Brenchley over to you LOL
don't know what his whole post said cos I kill filed him ages ago!

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 02:43 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:07:34 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
wrote:

>"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
>> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
><snip blah blah blah>
>
>Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't),

Those ARE the FACTS, which even a troll like you will just have to
learn to live with.

>I believe in this case we're
>talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.

We are talking about cats - there are no difference between cats in
the UK or USA - just a very big difference in the quality of the
owners. Maybe, in time, you will catch up with the UK - but for the
moment, when it comes to animal welfare, you are so far behind it is
sickening.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 02:43 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:07:34 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
wrote:

>"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
>> The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the
><snip blah blah blah>
>
>Even if that WERE the case (which it isn't),

Those ARE the FACTS, which even a troll like you will just have to
learn to live with.

>I believe in this case we're
>talking about the US, not third world countries like your own.

We are talking about cats - there are no difference between cats in
the UK or USA - just a very big difference in the quality of the
owners. Maybe, in time, you will catch up with the UK - but for the
moment, when it comes to animal welfare, you are so far behind it is
sickening.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 02:53 PM
On 18 Jul 2003 03:00:54 -0700, (Troy) wrote:

>"Shazza" > wrote in message >...
>> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
>> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
>> giving birth every two years.
>
>Yes, I was.
>
>> >> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
>> >> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
>> >> killed.
>> >
>> >Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
>> >she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
>> >deal.
>> >
>> >Cathy
>
>Okay I've looked it up and the details are...
>
>A cat reaches puberty at between 4-12 months
>A cat gestation lasts approximately 2 months
>A cat is able to get pregnant again at between 4-6 weeks
>A cat starts ovulation 24-48 hours after coitus
>
>Which means that in the first 10 years of a female cats life it, at
>most, can produce 40 litters, an average best of 4 per year - and
>that's if her cycles fall into place, she reaches puberty at 4 months,
>etc. to suit these calculations - and an average worst of 2 per year.
>So, in the wild I'd imagine the figure is on the lower side, so I
>would expect about 2 per year to be a fair guestimate?

A female cat's heat cycle is triggered by day length, usually (in
Northern climes) the first heat of the year will be sometime between
late January and early March.

If she become pregnant gestation is about 60-65 days, and as long as
the kittens live she will continue to feed them for about 12 to 16
weeks. During that time if is rare for her to mate again - she is too
busy protecting the kittens.

If her kittens have weaned and left home by mid July then some (but
not all) cats will mate again, though the odds of survival of this
litter is lower both because of her own health and the greater risk to
small cats as they start their independent live during the early
winter months.

--
Bob.

The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The
distinction is yours to draw...

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 02:53 PM
On 18 Jul 2003 03:00:54 -0700, (Troy) wrote:

>"Shazza" > wrote in message >...
>> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
>> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
>> giving birth every two years.
>
>Yes, I was.
>
>> >> Where do you get that a cat has a litter every two years? It's more
>> >> like 2 litters per year or *more*[1] assuming the litters aren't
>> >> killed.
>> >
>> >Not only that, but cats are induced ovulators. So if a female cat mates,
>> >she'll then ovulate, & therefore will get pregnant. It's not a hit or miss
>> >deal.
>> >
>> >Cathy
>
>Okay I've looked it up and the details are...
>
>A cat reaches puberty at between 4-12 months
>A cat gestation lasts approximately 2 months
>A cat is able to get pregnant again at between 4-6 weeks
>A cat starts ovulation 24-48 hours after coitus
>
>Which means that in the first 10 years of a female cats life it, at
>most, can produce 40 litters, an average best of 4 per year - and
>that's if her cycles fall into place, she reaches puberty at 4 months,
>etc. to suit these calculations - and an average worst of 2 per year.
>So, in the wild I'd imagine the figure is on the lower side, so I
>would expect about 2 per year to be a fair guestimate?

A female cat's heat cycle is triggered by day length, usually (in
Northern climes) the first heat of the year will be sometime between
late January and early March.

If she become pregnant gestation is about 60-65 days, and as long as
the kittens live she will continue to feed them for about 12 to 16
weeks. During that time if is rare for her to mate again - she is too
busy protecting the kittens.

If her kittens have weaned and left home by mid July then some (but
not all) cats will mate again, though the odds of survival of this
litter is lower both because of her own health and the greater risk to
small cats as they start their independent live during the early
winter months.

--
Bob.

The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The
distinction is yours to draw...

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:00 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:09:20 GMT, "Dionysus" >
wrote:


>"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:22:00 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
>> >
>> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK?
>>
>> Yes, in the main it is.
>>
>> > Do badgers or foxes ever attach
>> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
>>
>> If you mean attack, then no, badgers and foxes do not attack cats. And
>> yes, a normal cat is far too fast for either of them, and indeed for
>> just about any other animal you can name.
>>
Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.

>Ahem.
>
>Coyotes.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Cougars.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Wolverines.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Rattlesnakes.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Crocodiles.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Taxi cabs.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Garbage trucks.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Pit bulls.

Not a major problem to cats.

>People who don't like cats.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Eagles. Ospreys. Owls. Hawks. Ravens (and we're talking the 7-foot wingspan
>ravens here) and turkey vultures.

Not a major problem to cats.

>
>Perhaps, Bobby boy, you forget that more cat owners live in the US than in
>the UK, where we deal with a good deal more in the way of animal threats.

Perhaps you don't realize that we have a far higher cat density then
the USA, as well as a higher car density as well.

>And frankly, you're taking a **** on way too much of your "information".
>You've no clue what half of the crap you're spewing comes from - in fact,
>you're making it up.

All I can give are the facts - you just have to learn to live with
them.
>
>At the very least, I know where mine comes from - the college of Veterinary
>science at Washington State. So BEFORE you begin yammering up the praises of
>how wonderful UK pet owners are - please keep in mind two things - one, I
>(and many, many others) don't give a rat's ass

What is a rat doing with a donkey?

> how pampered your cat's
>existence is, nor do we care if you choose to make sure your life is
>centered around that of your cat's. I personally find that quite sad, and
>have broken up with girls because they couldn't leave their poor little
>Fluffy alone, even for a single night.
>
>So do enjoy your cat's company, oh Bobby. Because sure as hell your
>neighbors will think you completely bat**** crazy.
>
>You've certainly proved it well here.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:00 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:09:20 GMT, "Dionysus" >
wrote:


>"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:22:00 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"Chris Street" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Rattlesnakes, coyotes and firearms would be three.
>> >
>> >Is it illegal to own firearms in the UK?
>>
>> Yes, in the main it is.
>>
>> > Do badgers or foxes ever attach
>> >cats, or are cats too fast for them?
>>
>> If you mean attack, then no, badgers and foxes do not attack cats. And
>> yes, a normal cat is far too fast for either of them, and indeed for
>> just about any other animal you can name.
>>
Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this
service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make
the same mistake again.

>Ahem.
>
>Coyotes.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Cougars.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Wolverines.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Rattlesnakes.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Crocodiles.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Taxi cabs.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Garbage trucks.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Pit bulls.

Not a major problem to cats.

>People who don't like cats.

Not a major problem to cats.

>Eagles. Ospreys. Owls. Hawks. Ravens (and we're talking the 7-foot wingspan
>ravens here) and turkey vultures.

Not a major problem to cats.

>
>Perhaps, Bobby boy, you forget that more cat owners live in the US than in
>the UK, where we deal with a good deal more in the way of animal threats.

Perhaps you don't realize that we have a far higher cat density then
the USA, as well as a higher car density as well.

>And frankly, you're taking a **** on way too much of your "information".
>You've no clue what half of the crap you're spewing comes from - in fact,
>you're making it up.

All I can give are the facts - you just have to learn to live with
them.
>
>At the very least, I know where mine comes from - the college of Veterinary
>science at Washington State. So BEFORE you begin yammering up the praises of
>how wonderful UK pet owners are - please keep in mind two things - one, I
>(and many, many others) don't give a rat's ass

What is a rat doing with a donkey?

> how pampered your cat's
>existence is, nor do we care if you choose to make sure your life is
>centered around that of your cat's. I personally find that quite sad, and
>have broken up with girls because they couldn't leave their poor little
>Fluffy alone, even for a single night.
>
>So do enjoy your cat's company, oh Bobby. Because sure as hell your
>neighbors will think you completely bat**** crazy.
>
>You've certainly proved it well here.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:00 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:17:38 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
wrote:

>
>Dionysus - If you think THIS is bad, check out some of the other **** that
>has come out of his mouth:

Abuse Report Filed.

--
Bob.

Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:00 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:17:38 GMT, "ParrotRob" >
wrote:

>
>Dionysus - If you think THIS is bad, check out some of the other **** that
>has come out of his mouth:

Abuse Report Filed.

--
Bob.

Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:06 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:04:07 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:27:03 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>Street) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>
>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>nutbag?
>>>
>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>permanant file.
>>
>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>
>Correct - I bolt clueless morons into mine so they cannot bother me with
>meaningless drivel. You don't qualify for that yet - please don't make
>it come true.

In other words - when you no longer have an argument to go by, you
just use your killfile to try and escape.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:06 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:04:07 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:27:03 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>Street) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>
>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>nutbag?
>>>
>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>permanant file.
>>
>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>
>Correct - I bolt clueless morons into mine so they cannot bother me with
>meaningless drivel. You don't qualify for that yet - please don't make
>it come true.

In other words - when you no longer have an argument to go by, you
just use your killfile to try and escape.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:11 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 03:56:38 GMT, "Dionysus" >
wrote:

>
>A JACKASS NAMED"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in
>message:
>
>> >Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
>> >away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
>This
>> >particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of
>his
>> >that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
>> >search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
>late
>> >(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it
>seems),
>> >Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
>much
>> >worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
>doing
>> >much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
>a
>> >day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
>> >outside to relieve themselves.
>> >
>> Abuse Report Filed.
>>
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>> Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.
>
>
>Bob, seriously. I just got here.

Then I would respectfully suggest you follow usual usenet practice and
lurk for a while - it would avoid you making a fool of yourself with
comments like these.

> You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
>You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people for
>the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my veterinarian
>fiancee says is essential to feline health.

The I do hope you "fiancee" is never, ever, allowed near cats.

>My cat stays inside AT ALL TIMES
>and is quite healthy.

You may delude yourself, but you do not delude me. I can't help it if
you are a sick animal abuser - but I can make sure your abuse is
exposed.

>For that matter, would someone living in New York City
>be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.
>
>Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
>here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
>painful.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 03:11 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 03:56:38 GMT, "Dionysus" >
wrote:

>
>A JACKASS NAMED"Bob Brenchley." > wrote in
>message:
>
>> >Ash, are you new to this group? If you are, then I should warn you right
>> >away to ignore anything that comes out of the mouth of Bob Brenchley.
>This
>> >particular quote ("If you live in an area...") is a canned response of
>his
>> >that he has used over 120 times in the past six months alone (as a Google
>> >search would easily confirm). Although he has been relatively quiet of
>late
>> >(he's been terrorizing alt.animals.cat most of the time lately, it
>seems),
>> >Bob is renowned for making asinine statements like this one (and much,
>much
>> >worse). He's a backyard breeder who doesn't want to be bothered with
>doing
>> >much more than opening a few cans of cheap, canned cat food once or twice
>a
>> >day. He doesn't even keep a litter box, insisting that his "pets" go
>> >outside to relieve themselves.
>> >
>> Abuse Report Filed.
>>
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>> Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet.
>
>
>Bob, seriously. I just got here.

Then I would respectfully suggest you follow usual usenet practice and
lurk for a while - it would avoid you making a fool of yourself with
comments like these.

> You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
>You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people for
>the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my veterinarian
>fiancee says is essential to feline health.

The I do hope you "fiancee" is never, ever, allowed near cats.

>My cat stays inside AT ALL TIMES
>and is quite healthy.

You may delude yourself, but you do not delude me. I can't help it if
you are a sick animal abuser - but I can make sure your abuse is
exposed.

>For that matter, would someone living in New York City
>be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.
>
>Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
>here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
>painful.

--
Bob.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Chris Street
July 18th 03, 05:46 PM
Bob Brenchley. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:02:36 GMT, (Chris
> Street) wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:03:48 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
>>>Street) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>>>or care about these facts.
>>>
>>>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>>>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>>>day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>>>a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>>>cruel, selfish, or both.
>>
>>If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
>>your facts straight first.
>
>
>
> I'll say it again for you, and everyone else.
>
> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> cruel, selfish, or both.
>
> Got it?
>


Hey **** for brains. Where have I ever said I would keep my cats inside
all the time then? Either point it out or apologise and f*** off.

Chris Street
July 18th 03, 05:46 PM
Bob Brenchley. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:02:36 GMT, (Chris
> Street) wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:03:48 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
>>>Street) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>>>or care about these facts.
>>>
>>>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>>>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>>>day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>>>a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>>>cruel, selfish, or both.
>>
>>If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
>>your facts straight first.
>
>
>
> I'll say it again for you, and everyone else.
>
> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> cruel, selfish, or both.
>
> Got it?
>


Hey **** for brains. Where have I ever said I would keep my cats inside
all the time then? Either point it out or apologise and f*** off.

Chris Street
July 18th 03, 05:48 PM
ParrotRob wrote:
> "Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>
>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>nutbag?
>>>
>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>permanant file.
>>
>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>
>
> I thought that was posting "Abuse Report Filed".
>
LMAO!

>
>>--
>>Imbecile.
>>
>>Everyone is entitled to be stupid but I'm abusing the privilege.
>
>
>

Chris Street
July 18th 03, 05:48 PM
ParrotRob wrote:
> "Bob Brenchley." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>
>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>nutbag?
>>>
>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>permanant file.
>>
>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>
>
> I thought that was posting "Abuse Report Filed".
>
LMAO!

>
>>--
>>Imbecile.
>>
>>Everyone is entitled to be stupid but I'm abusing the privilege.
>
>
>

Nina S.
July 18th 03, 08:33 PM
Shazza > wrote in message
...
> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
> giving birth every two years.

This is what I've come across....I'm assuming that they are referring to
unaltered cats..."wild", or domesticated....

*An average cat has 1-8 kittens per litter, and 2-3 litters per year.

*During her productive life, one female cat could have more than 100
kittens.

*A single pair of cats and their kittens can produce as many as 420,000
kittens in just 7 years.

*The American cat population reached nearly 68 million in 1996.

*There are more than 500 million domestic cats in the world, with 33
different breeds.

*More than 35,000 kittens are born in the U.S. each year. Spay or neuter
your cat.

Nina

Nina S.
July 18th 03, 08:33 PM
Shazza > wrote in message
...
> It would be interesting to know how many litters a cat actually would have
> out in the wild. I think he was making a theoretical assumption of a cat
> giving birth every two years.

This is what I've come across....I'm assuming that they are referring to
unaltered cats..."wild", or domesticated....

*An average cat has 1-8 kittens per litter, and 2-3 litters per year.

*During her productive life, one female cat could have more than 100
kittens.

*A single pair of cats and their kittens can produce as many as 420,000
kittens in just 7 years.

*The American cat population reached nearly 68 million in 1996.

*There are more than 500 million domestic cats in the world, with 33
different breeds.

*More than 35,000 kittens are born in the U.S. each year. Spay or neuter
your cat.

Nina

Nina S.
July 18th 03, 08:38 PM
Why not give this a try...I personally haven't tried it, so I can't say for
sure if it works, but what do you have to lose?

Wildlife Repellent Recipe

by Carol Martino

Ingredients:

1 whole Spanish onion
1 jalapeno pepper
1 tablespoon cayenne pepper

Directions:

Chop up the onion and the pepper.
Mix together and boil in 2 quarts of water for about 20 min.
Let cool, and strain the water through a cheesecloth.

Using a garden sprayer, spray any area outside where wild animals or even
neighborhood pets are being a nuisance. This probably will not work for
birds (birds do not have
a sense of smell.) This process may have to be carried out for a period of 2
weeks to ensure success.

This mixture is non-toxic and it will not harm any animal, but will succeed
in keeping them away.

Nina

Nina S.
July 18th 03, 08:38 PM
Why not give this a try...I personally haven't tried it, so I can't say for
sure if it works, but what do you have to lose?

Wildlife Repellent Recipe

by Carol Martino

Ingredients:

1 whole Spanish onion
1 jalapeno pepper
1 tablespoon cayenne pepper

Directions:

Chop up the onion and the pepper.
Mix together and boil in 2 quarts of water for about 20 min.
Let cool, and strain the water through a cheesecloth.

Using a garden sprayer, spray any area outside where wild animals or even
neighborhood pets are being a nuisance. This probably will not work for
birds (birds do not have
a sense of smell.) This process may have to be carried out for a period of 2
weeks to ensure success.

This mixture is non-toxic and it will not harm any animal, but will succeed
in keeping them away.

Nina

Karen Chuplis
July 18th 03, 09:18 PM
That's pretty interesting!

"Nina S." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Why not give this a try...I personally haven't tried it, so I can't say
for
> sure if it works, but what do you have to lose?
>
> Wildlife Repellent Recipe
>
> by Carol Martino
>
> Ingredients:
>
> 1 whole Spanish onion
> 1 jalapeno pepper
> 1 tablespoon cayenne pepper
>
> Directions:
>
> Chop up the onion and the pepper.
> Mix together and boil in 2 quarts of water for about 20 min.
> Let cool, and strain the water through a cheesecloth.
>
> Using a garden sprayer, spray any area outside where wild animals or even
> neighborhood pets are being a nuisance. This probably will not work for
> birds (birds do not have
> a sense of smell.) This process may have to be carried out for a period of
2
> weeks to ensure success.
>
> This mixture is non-toxic and it will not harm any animal, but will
succeed
> in keeping them away.
>
> Nina
>
>

Karen Chuplis
July 18th 03, 09:18 PM
That's pretty interesting!

"Nina S." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Why not give this a try...I personally haven't tried it, so I can't say
for
> sure if it works, but what do you have to lose?
>
> Wildlife Repellent Recipe
>
> by Carol Martino
>
> Ingredients:
>
> 1 whole Spanish onion
> 1 jalapeno pepper
> 1 tablespoon cayenne pepper
>
> Directions:
>
> Chop up the onion and the pepper.
> Mix together and boil in 2 quarts of water for about 20 min.
> Let cool, and strain the water through a cheesecloth.
>
> Using a garden sprayer, spray any area outside where wild animals or even
> neighborhood pets are being a nuisance. This probably will not work for
> birds (birds do not have
> a sense of smell.) This process may have to be carried out for a period of
2
> weeks to ensure success.
>
> This mixture is non-toxic and it will not harm any animal, but will
succeed
> in keeping them away.
>
> Nina
>
>

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 10:56 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:46:20 +0100, Chris Street
> wrote:

>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:02:36 GMT, (Chris
>> Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:03:48 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
>>>>Street) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>>>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>>>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>>>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>>>>or care about these facts.
>>>>
>>>>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>>>>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>>>>day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>>>>a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>>>>cruel, selfish, or both.
>>>
>>>If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
>>>your facts straight first.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll say it again for you, and everyone else.
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>>
>> Got it?
>>
>
>
>Hey **** for brains. Where have I ever said I would keep my cats inside
>all the time then? Either point it out or apologise and f*** off.

Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???

It is so sad that the UK's wonderful education system manages to
produce the odd brain-dead moron like you who cannot even read a
simple paragraph in the English language.

--
Bob.

Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup
than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut
up.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 10:56 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:46:20 +0100, Chris Street
> wrote:

>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:02:36 GMT, (Chris
>> Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:03:48 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:49:52 GMT, (Chris
>>>>Street) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's possibly true for the US. There are dangers to cats in the US that
>>>>>simply don't exist in the UK, and I can see that these would make it
>>>>>more sensible to keep cats inside - also houses in the US are on average
>>>>>considerably larger that the UK. Bob however doesn't seem to take note,
>>>>>or care about these facts.
>>>>
>>>>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>>>>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>>>>day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>>>>a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>>>>cruel, selfish, or both.
>>>
>>>If you are going to accuse me of animal abuse Bob then I suggest you get
>>>your facts straight first.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll say it again for you, and everyone else.
>>
>> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
>> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
>> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
>> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
>> cruel, selfish, or both.
>>
>> Got it?
>>
>
>
>Hey **** for brains. Where have I ever said I would keep my cats inside
>all the time then? Either point it out or apologise and f*** off.

Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???

It is so sad that the UK's wonderful education system manages to
produce the odd brain-dead moron like you who cannot even read a
simple paragraph in the English language.

--
Bob.

Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup
than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut
up.

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 10:57 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:47:47 +0100, Chris Street
> wrote:

>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:04:07 GMT, (Chris
>> Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:27:03 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>>>Street) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>>>nutbag?
>>>>>
>>>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>>>permanant file.
>>>>
>>>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>>>
>>>Correct - I bolt clueless morons into mine so they cannot bother me with
>>>meaningless drivel. You don't qualify for that yet - please don't make
>>>it come true.
>>
>>
>> In other words - when you no longer have an argument to go by, you
>> just use your killfile to try and escape.
>>
>
>You are drivelling again Bob - mind you since all you can do is
>plagarise others work I shouldn't have expected anything original to
>come out of your mouth - or your arse.

Do shut up you stupid troll.

--
Bob.

I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story...

Bob Brenchley.
July 18th 03, 10:57 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:47:47 +0100, Chris Street
> wrote:

>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:04:07 GMT, (Chris
>> Street) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:27:03 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:14:36 GMT, (Chris
>>>>Street) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC), (Victor
>>>>>M. Martinez) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Cathy Friedmann > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I, along w/ many others, killfiled Bob B. (whom I'm seeing through your
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You mean to tell me there's people out there who haven't killfilled that
>>>>>>nutbag?
>>>>>
>>>>>I generally object to killfiles as they defeat the point of usenet.
>>>>>(IMHO) However Bob is very close most of the time to being stuck in my
>>>>>permanant file.
>>>>
>>>>Killfiles - that last bolt-hole for those who have lost the argument.
>>>
>>>Correct - I bolt clueless morons into mine so they cannot bother me with
>>>meaningless drivel. You don't qualify for that yet - please don't make
>>>it come true.
>>
>>
>> In other words - when you no longer have an argument to go by, you
>> just use your killfile to try and escape.
>>
>
>You are drivelling again Bob - mind you since all you can do is
>plagarise others work I shouldn't have expected anything original to
>come out of your mouth - or your arse.

Do shut up you stupid troll.

--
Bob.

I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story...

Steve Clark
July 19th 03, 12:51 AM
Ash Smith wrote:

> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Damn, can I move in with you Ash? I promise to stay inside if you feed
me, give me the TV remote, and let me use one of those bathrooms
from time to time. If one of the bedrooms is free I can sleep there. If
not I can sleep on the couch. No problem.

Seriously, though, I keep my cats inside. It's too F*%&ing dangerous
out there for them. They seem purrfectly happy and I don't think for
one minute I am depriving them of their freedom. While I do not live
in a palace, they do live a good life with my wife and I and want for
nothing.

This guy sounds like the nut who used to come to our group's
adoption day and want to "free" all the cats on display for
adoption. I wonder what he would say when one of his liberated
cats ran into the parking lot and got transformed into fir pizza.
We now have locks on all the cages to prevent someone from staging
a jailbreak. Their liberation will come in due time when someone
takes them home with them.

If you let your cats go in and out as they please that's your business.
Just do not come down on those of us who think it is best to keep
our companions inside for safety's sake.

Steve


--
To Reply take out the NO NO's

Steve Clark
July 19th 03, 12:51 AM
Ash Smith wrote:

> >
> > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> > cruel, selfish, or both.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Bob.
> >
>
> What a jackass, I have 2 cute as hell kittens and while I do let them
> outside from time to time, they are basically indoor cats - and you know
> what, they love it, and have it made. Your argument is worthless, as though
> it is somehow cruel to keep them inside. It's a better argument to say that
> it might be cruel if you never let them inside and make them stay out all
> the time. If cruelty to my cats is forcing them to stay inside my 3br 2 bth
> house all day, where I clean up after them and buy them toys and all and all
> they have to do is enjoy themselves, then I guess I'm guilty.

Damn, can I move in with you Ash? I promise to stay inside if you feed
me, give me the TV remote, and let me use one of those bathrooms
from time to time. If one of the bedrooms is free I can sleep there. If
not I can sleep on the couch. No problem.

Seriously, though, I keep my cats inside. It's too F*%&ing dangerous
out there for them. They seem purrfectly happy and I don't think for
one minute I am depriving them of their freedom. While I do not live
in a palace, they do live a good life with my wife and I and want for
nothing.

This guy sounds like the nut who used to come to our group's
adoption day and want to "free" all the cats on display for
adoption. I wonder what he would say when one of his liberated
cats ran into the parking lot and got transformed into fir pizza.
We now have locks on all the cages to prevent someone from staging
a jailbreak. Their liberation will come in due time when someone
takes them home with them.

If you let your cats go in and out as they please that's your business.
Just do not come down on those of us who think it is best to keep
our companions inside for safety's sake.

Steve


--
To Reply take out the NO NO's

Dionysus
July 19th 03, 02:10 AM
> >Bob, seriously. I just got here.

Oh, no no no. I mean I just subscribed to alt.animals.cat. I've been online
for somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 years. Yes, that means I had a
prehistoric email account in 1990. When usenet came up I saw everything very
similar to what crap you've been spewing - albeit yours is toned down from
the illegible (yes, even typed) garbage that was coming forth from the
files. So play hide and go **** yourself, Bobby. Or lurk yourself for a
while. It's really all the same to me. Of course, those are suggestions
issued with the utmost respect.

> Then I would respectfully suggest you follow usual usenet practice and
> lurk for a while - it would avoid you making a fool of yourself with
> comments like these.

> > You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
> >You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people
for
> >the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my
veterinarian
> >fiancee says is essential to feline health.

> The I do hope you "fiancee" is never, ever, allowed near cats.

Strange, she said the exact same thing about you. Actually, what she said
was, "People like that are allowed to have children, too. THAT'S scary."

> You may delude yourself, but you do not delude me. I can't help it if
> you are a sick animal abuser - but I can make sure your abuse is
> exposed.

Aha. And yet you've never met me. Crazy twit, party of one?

> >For that matter, would someone living in New York City
> >be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> cruel, selfish, or both.

Bob, please pick up the dictionary and refer to the word "Redundant?"

How about this - if you find that your entire life centers around the idea
of yourself crusading against an entire world of people who make different
decisions than you do, and stalwartly committing acts of brave defiance to
destroy people, you may well be on your way to meeting MI5 personnel up
close and VERY personal! Welcome to the world of the frothing fanatics, oh
Bobby! Please, make sure to place your fingertips properly in the ink, since
so many nutjobs forget how to perform this minor detail.

> >Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
> >here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
> >painful.


> Bob.

Synonym (at least in this group) for raging dip**** fanatic extraordinare.

> Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Dionysus
July 19th 03, 02:10 AM
> >Bob, seriously. I just got here.

Oh, no no no. I mean I just subscribed to alt.animals.cat. I've been online
for somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 years. Yes, that means I had a
prehistoric email account in 1990. When usenet came up I saw everything very
similar to what crap you've been spewing - albeit yours is toned down from
the illegible (yes, even typed) garbage that was coming forth from the
files. So play hide and go **** yourself, Bobby. Or lurk yourself for a
while. It's really all the same to me. Of course, those are suggestions
issued with the utmost respect.

> Then I would respectfully suggest you follow usual usenet practice and
> lurk for a while - it would avoid you making a fool of yourself with
> comments like these.

> > You're a complete jackass of a net troll.
> >You have no special powers. Your "tips" are really bashing other people
for
> >the pleasure of it. Your "facts" are out of line with what my
veterinarian
> >fiancee says is essential to feline health.

> The I do hope you "fiancee" is never, ever, allowed near cats.

Strange, she said the exact same thing about you. Actually, what she said
was, "People like that are allowed to have children, too. THAT'S scary."

> You may delude yourself, but you do not delude me. I can't help it if
> you are a sick animal abuser - but I can make sure your abuse is
> exposed.

Aha. And yet you've never met me. Crazy twit, party of one?

> >For that matter, would someone living in New York City
> >be abusing their cat if they never let it outside to wander about?

> If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
> allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
> day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
> a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
> cruel, selfish, or both.

Bob, please pick up the dictionary and refer to the word "Redundant?"

How about this - if you find that your entire life centers around the idea
of yourself crusading against an entire world of people who make different
decisions than you do, and stalwartly committing acts of brave defiance to
destroy people, you may well be on your way to meeting MI5 personnel up
close and VERY personal! Welcome to the world of the frothing fanatics, oh
Bobby! Please, make sure to place your fingertips properly in the ink, since
so many nutjobs forget how to perform this minor detail.

> >Again. Bob. You're a jackass. And it's a lot easier to see that from out
> >here. Please, feel free to cease posting your misguided troll dung. It's
> >painful.


> Bob.

Synonym (at least in this group) for raging dip**** fanatic extraordinare.

> Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Shazza
July 19th 03, 04:07 AM
Cheryl wrote in message ...

>> Wildlife Repellent Recipe
>>
>> by Carol Martino
>>
>Thanks. I'm keeping that for whatever keeps eating a species of lily
>that I've been trying to grow. They never make it out of the young,
>tender, tasty stage. Rabbits or voles; not sure which is getting
>them.
>
>

Deer love daylillies. As soon as mine get buds and are ready to flower,
boom!, the buds are gone. Those lily buds must be mighty tasty. I saw a
deer repellant hot pepper spray called, "This One Works," for shrubs and
flowers, but you can't spray it on a vegetable garden, as it would probably
kill you. Good recipe!

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Shazza
July 19th 03, 04:07 AM
Cheryl wrote in message ...

>> Wildlife Repellent Recipe
>>
>> by Carol Martino
>>
>Thanks. I'm keeping that for whatever keeps eating a species of lily
>that I've been trying to grow. They never make it out of the young,
>tender, tasty stage. Rabbits or voles; not sure which is getting
>them.
>
>

Deer love daylillies. As soon as mine get buds and are ready to flower,
boom!, the buds are gone. Those lily buds must be mighty tasty. I saw a
deer repellant hot pepper spray called, "This One Works," for shrubs and
flowers, but you can't spray it on a vegetable garden, as it would probably
kill you. Good recipe!

--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Shazza
July 19th 03, 07:02 AM
Creative and hungry! The deer seem to be thriving, as I saw a large buck by
the woods, and one of my neighbors watched from her car as an entire family
of deer: buck, doe, and younger deer crossed the street. Those electronic
devices seem troubling to me as they most likely affect other animals. I
suppose I could fence the yard, but it would be expensive and I'd lose the
natural, open look with the woods as a backdrop to my property. Here's a
link to the left backyard area. The picture was taken in spring and the
daffodils belong to my neighbor. You can notice the reddish look to the
buds on the maple trees in the background. The cement walkway that you see
is by my back porch.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/EarthStarStryke/backyard.jpg

What I meant by a cat fence was installing a fence or enclosure for cats to
play outside.
--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Chris Street wrote in message >...

>Sounds like you have some creative deer there!
>
>I've seen devices in the UK that can be used to ward deer off - it's a
>small ultrasonic pinger that deer find offensive and don't go near.
>Sadly it also winds up cats but I'm just wondering if you may fins
>something like that useful planted in the borders of the wood close to
>where they leave to raid your garden.
>--
>79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
>The other 42% are made up later on.
>In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Shazza
July 19th 03, 07:02 AM
Creative and hungry! The deer seem to be thriving, as I saw a large buck by
the woods, and one of my neighbors watched from her car as an entire family
of deer: buck, doe, and younger deer crossed the street. Those electronic
devices seem troubling to me as they most likely affect other animals. I
suppose I could fence the yard, but it would be expensive and I'd lose the
natural, open look with the woods as a backdrop to my property. Here's a
link to the left backyard area. The picture was taken in spring and the
daffodils belong to my neighbor. You can notice the reddish look to the
buds on the maple trees in the background. The cement walkway that you see
is by my back porch.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/EarthStarStryke/backyard.jpg

What I meant by a cat fence was installing a fence or enclosure for cats to
play outside.
--
Visit my new webpage - http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Aeris5000/cats.html

Chris Street wrote in message >...

>Sounds like you have some creative deer there!
>
>I've seen devices in the UK that can be used to ward deer off - it's a
>small ultrasonic pinger that deer find offensive and don't go near.
>Sadly it also winds up cats but I'm just wondering if you may fins
>something like that useful planted in the borders of the wood close to
>where they leave to raid your garden.
>--
>79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
>The other 42% are made up later on.
>In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Bob Brenchley.
July 19th 03, 04:08 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:27:23 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>>Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???
>>
>
>So stop implying it you stupid twit
>
>*plonk*

You again show your stupidity.

--
Bob.

Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt).

Bob Brenchley.
July 19th 03, 04:08 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:27:23 GMT, (Chris
Street) wrote:

>>Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???
>>
>
>So stop implying it you stupid twit
>
>*plonk*

You again show your stupidity.

--
Bob.

Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt).

Nina S.
July 19th 03, 06:22 PM
> What I meant by a cat fence was installing a fence or enclosure for cats
to
> play outside.

Beautiful back yard! I don't blame you for not wanting to fence it in.
Here are a few sites for enclosures. You might get a few ideas from them.

http://www.just4cats.com/page4.html This one is for plans you can purchase.

http://www.kvasir.co.uk/new_cat_run.htm

http://www.cat-world.com.au/cat-worldenclosures.htm

If I had a yard I would definitely build one.

Nina

Nina S.
July 19th 03, 06:22 PM
> What I meant by a cat fence was installing a fence or enclosure for cats
to
> play outside.

Beautiful back yard! I don't blame you for not wanting to fence it in.
Here are a few sites for enclosures. You might get a few ideas from them.

http://www.just4cats.com/page4.html This one is for plans you can purchase.

http://www.kvasir.co.uk/new_cat_run.htm

http://www.cat-world.com.au/cat-worldenclosures.htm

If I had a yard I would definitely build one.

Nina

Martijn
July 24th 03, 06:05 PM
*sigh*

"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht
...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:27:23 GMT, (Chris
> Street) wrote:
>
> >>Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???
> >>
> >
> >So stop implying it you stupid twit
> >
> >*plonk*
>
> You again show your stupidity.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt).

Martijn
July 24th 03, 06:05 PM
*sigh*

"Bob Brenchley." > schreef in bericht
...
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:27:23 GMT, (Chris
> Street) wrote:
>
> >>Hey! Brainless MORON. Where does it say in my post that you do???
> >>
> >
> >So stop implying it you stupid twit
> >
> >*plonk*
>
> You again show your stupidity.
>
> --
> Bob.
>
> Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt).