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Philip Wagner
July 13th 03, 02:57 PM
I know most here will condemn me for suggesting it but I just can't
keep throwing money away on our cat Andy.

In summer 2002 Andy was diagnosed with diabetes. The total costs in
two months was $1,600.00. The vet still wanted us to bring him in
every two weeks at $200.00 a crack for day long blood sugar tests.
This would end when they determined the insulin level was right.
However other costs such as expensive food, and the problem of having
other cats that try to eat this expensive food. One good thing Andy is
so overwieght he cannot get up to the other cats food dish. When he
wants to eat he incesantly meows until we come and pick him up and put
him on a counter and open the container with his food. Another thing
is the insulin, a minor cost in the sceme of things.

I accepted this money loss, because I do feel a commitment to our
animals. However, this past May a urinary tract infection and blockage
occurred. That ended up costing us another $1,200.00. The vet then
said she cannot guranty this won't happen again frequently. Before we
left the vet they said we were over due for the diabetes screening
test, and should do one as soon as Andy revovers fully.

We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
(another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
am I evil?
When is the point when enough is enough?

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 04:40 PM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/13/03 10:03 AM:

> Caliban wrote:
>
>> For me, I'd start thinking about (1) how
>> much Andy was suffering
>
> Andy's suffering is because of an incompetent vet and if changes are
> made he can have a good quality of life. I have already emailed the OP
> regarding this.
>
>> (2) how many cats I could save down at
>> the shelter with the money I was
>> expending on a current but sadly very sick
>> cat.
>
> This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> unworthy of care because of a money issue, especially considering the
> circumstances the OP described which make it clear that the vet has
> failed miserably in helping the OP manage his cat's diabetes and UTI's.
> Part of the responsibility of having a pet is dealing with the cost of
> health care. Your logic is flawed because there is NO guarantee that the
> "shelter" cats wouldn't end up developing serious health issues that
> require even greater cost. I also doubt that the OP would be interested
> in adopting all those shelter cats that the cost of caring for his
> diabetic cat might pay for. This cat needs a new vet and a better plan
> to manage his diabetes, not death.
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22


I agree with this post.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 04:40 PM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/13/03 10:03 AM:

> Caliban wrote:
>
>> For me, I'd start thinking about (1) how
>> much Andy was suffering
>
> Andy's suffering is because of an incompetent vet and if changes are
> made he can have a good quality of life. I have already emailed the OP
> regarding this.
>
>> (2) how many cats I could save down at
>> the shelter with the money I was
>> expending on a current but sadly very sick
>> cat.
>
> This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> unworthy of care because of a money issue, especially considering the
> circumstances the OP described which make it clear that the vet has
> failed miserably in helping the OP manage his cat's diabetes and UTI's.
> Part of the responsibility of having a pet is dealing with the cost of
> health care. Your logic is flawed because there is NO guarantee that the
> "shelter" cats wouldn't end up developing serious health issues that
> require even greater cost. I also doubt that the OP would be interested
> in adopting all those shelter cats that the cost of caring for his
> diabetic cat might pay for. This cat needs a new vet and a better plan
> to manage his diabetes, not death.
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22


I agree with this post.

Karen

Caliban
July 13th 03, 04:45 PM
> wrote
> Caliban wrote:
snip
> >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> >the shelter with the money I was
> >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> >cat.
>
> This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> unworthy of care because of a money issue,

Do you spend all your money saving cats?

If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.

I think it's important to face the reality that there are very real
financial limits to how much good a person can do.

> especially considering the
> circumstances the OP described which make it clear that the vet has
> failed miserably in helping the OP manage his cat's diabetes and UTI's.

You've never seen this cat. No one can know from this kind of distance
whether the vet has failed miserably or not. I think it's awful that you
would slander a perfect stranger (this vet) with hardly any relevant facts
at all

If you have a problem with having limits to how much one can spend to save a
cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

Caliban
July 13th 03, 04:45 PM
> wrote
> Caliban wrote:
snip
> >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> >the shelter with the money I was
> >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> >cat.
>
> This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> unworthy of care because of a money issue,

Do you spend all your money saving cats?

If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.

I think it's important to face the reality that there are very real
financial limits to how much good a person can do.

> especially considering the
> circumstances the OP described which make it clear that the vet has
> failed miserably in helping the OP manage his cat's diabetes and UTI's.

You've never seen this cat. No one can know from this kind of distance
whether the vet has failed miserably or not. I think it's awful that you
would slander a perfect stranger (this vet) with hardly any relevant facts
at all

If you have a problem with having limits to how much one can spend to save a
cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

July 13th 03, 05:50 PM
Caliban wrote:

>Do you spend all your money saving cats?

Minus the rent, car payment, and occasional treat for myself, yes.

>If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.

No hypocrisy here.

>I think it's important to face the reality
>that there are very real financial limits to
>how much good a person can do.

I don't disagree, but what you seemed to have failed to notice (or maybe
you just didn't because of lack of experience) is that there are a lot
of things in this situation that should be different and can result in
eliminating a lot of cost.

>>especially considering the
>>circumstances the OP described which
>>make it clear that the vet has failed
>>miserably in helping the OP manage his
>>cat's diabetes and UTI's.

>You've never seen this cat. No one can
>know from this kind of distance whether
>the vet has failed miserably or not.

A vet that would allow a cat that has already suffered a UTI and
blockage to remain on a dry food diet has FAILED the cat. A vet that did
not set up a plan for an OBESE diabetic cat to lose weight, and who has
not offered the client any help with learning to monitor blood sugar
levels at home and instead wants $200 every few weeks to do it in the
clinic has FAILED the cat. The cost the OP cited is astronomical and it
is clear that this vet is soaking him for a lot of unnecessary things.

>I think it's awful that you would slander a
>perfect stranger (this vet) with hardly any
>relevant facts at all

There was no slander and there were enough relevant facts for me to know
that the OP needs a better vet.

>If you have a problem with having limits
>to how much one can spend to save a
>cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is
people recommending giving up on a cat that has very treatable issues
that don't necessarily require a huge financial sacrifice. The extensive
costs incurred in this situation are directly related to the vet's
failure to properly treat, not the cat, and a lot of it could have been
avoided.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 13th 03, 05:50 PM
Caliban wrote:

>Do you spend all your money saving cats?

Minus the rent, car payment, and occasional treat for myself, yes.

>If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.

No hypocrisy here.

>I think it's important to face the reality
>that there are very real financial limits to
>how much good a person can do.

I don't disagree, but what you seemed to have failed to notice (or maybe
you just didn't because of lack of experience) is that there are a lot
of things in this situation that should be different and can result in
eliminating a lot of cost.

>>especially considering the
>>circumstances the OP described which
>>make it clear that the vet has failed
>>miserably in helping the OP manage his
>>cat's diabetes and UTI's.

>You've never seen this cat. No one can
>know from this kind of distance whether
>the vet has failed miserably or not.

A vet that would allow a cat that has already suffered a UTI and
blockage to remain on a dry food diet has FAILED the cat. A vet that did
not set up a plan for an OBESE diabetic cat to lose weight, and who has
not offered the client any help with learning to monitor blood sugar
levels at home and instead wants $200 every few weeks to do it in the
clinic has FAILED the cat. The cost the OP cited is astronomical and it
is clear that this vet is soaking him for a lot of unnecessary things.

>I think it's awful that you would slander a
>perfect stranger (this vet) with hardly any
>relevant facts at all

There was no slander and there were enough relevant facts for me to know
that the OP needs a better vet.

>If you have a problem with having limits
>to how much one can spend to save a
>cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is
people recommending giving up on a cat that has very treatable issues
that don't necessarily require a huge financial sacrifice. The extensive
costs incurred in this situation are directly related to the vet's
failure to properly treat, not the cat, and a lot of it could have been
avoided.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Caliban
July 13th 03, 06:13 PM
"MaryL" > wrote
> "Caliban" > wrote
> > > wrote
> > > Caliban wrote:
> > snip
> > > >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> > > >the shelter with the money I was
> > > >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> > > >cat.
> > >
> > > This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> > > unworthy of care because of a money issue,
> >
> > Do you spend all your money saving cats?
> >
> > If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.
> >
>
> Megan is licensed to care for 25 cats, and she currently is at the maximum
> of 25. Most of these cats were abused, neglected or feral when she
adopted
> them. She gave me a tremendous amount of help when I adopted Duffy, and I
> know enough about her circumstances to say that she really does spend
almost
> all of her resources on the care of these cats. Several of them are
> undergoing very expensive care at this moment -- care that she gives them
> even though this means that she must deprive herself of many things that
> most of us would consider to be basic.

Assuming this is true, do you think that's fair to ask every cat owner to do
this?

That she would interpret my words as considering cats "disposable and
unworthy of care" is outrageous. Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
does hers.

As is discussed here often, many agree that there is a point where, despite
the best intentions, it's better to put a cat down.

It may very well be that this cat is suffering and his time has come,
couldn't it?

> I'm glad Megan responded to the OP. I thought of her when I first read
this
> post about diabetes. She has considerable experience in this area and
> frequently cares for other peoples' diabetic cats.

She's not a vet. She hasn't met this cat. She could be right. She could be
wrong.

> I hoped that she would
> send information (which she did) because the amount of cost listed here
> sounds unreasonable to me. I don't think most veterinary care for
diabetic
> cats would even approach the amounts that have been charged to the OP.

Caliban
July 13th 03, 06:13 PM
"MaryL" > wrote
> "Caliban" > wrote
> > > wrote
> > > Caliban wrote:
> > snip
> > > >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> > > >the shelter with the money I was
> > > >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> > > >cat.
> > >
> > > This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> > > unworthy of care because of a money issue,
> >
> > Do you spend all your money saving cats?
> >
> > If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.
> >
>
> Megan is licensed to care for 25 cats, and she currently is at the maximum
> of 25. Most of these cats were abused, neglected or feral when she
adopted
> them. She gave me a tremendous amount of help when I adopted Duffy, and I
> know enough about her circumstances to say that she really does spend
almost
> all of her resources on the care of these cats. Several of them are
> undergoing very expensive care at this moment -- care that she gives them
> even though this means that she must deprive herself of many things that
> most of us would consider to be basic.

Assuming this is true, do you think that's fair to ask every cat owner to do
this?

That she would interpret my words as considering cats "disposable and
unworthy of care" is outrageous. Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
does hers.

As is discussed here often, many agree that there is a point where, despite
the best intentions, it's better to put a cat down.

It may very well be that this cat is suffering and his time has come,
couldn't it?

> I'm glad Megan responded to the OP. I thought of her when I first read
this
> post about diabetes. She has considerable experience in this area and
> frequently cares for other peoples' diabetic cats.

She's not a vet. She hasn't met this cat. She could be right. She could be
wrong.

> I hoped that she would
> send information (which she did) because the amount of cost listed here
> sounds unreasonable to me. I don't think most veterinary care for
diabetic
> cats would even approach the amounts that have been charged to the OP.

MaryL
July 13th 03, 06:36 PM
"Caliban" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> "MaryL" > wrote
> > "Caliban" > wrote
> > > > wrote
> > > > Caliban wrote:
> > > snip
> > > > >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> > > > >the shelter with the money I was
> > > > >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> > > > >cat.
> > > >
> > > > This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> > > > unworthy of care because of a money issue,
> > >
> > > Do you spend all your money saving cats?
> > >
> > > If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.
> > >
> >
> > Megan is licensed to care for 25 cats, and she currently is at the
maximum
> > of 25. Most of these cats were abused, neglected or feral when she
> adopted
> > them. She gave me a tremendous amount of help when I adopted Duffy, and
I
> > know enough about her circumstances to say that she really does spend
> almost
> > all of her resources on the care of these cats. Several of them are
> > undergoing very expensive care at this moment -- care that she gives
them
> > even though this means that she must deprive herself of many things that
> > most of us would consider to be basic.
>
> Assuming this is true, do you think that's fair to ask every cat owner to
do
> this?
>

Actually, I was responding to your inference that she was being hypocritical
if she didn't spend all her money on cats. She clearly can't spend "all"
her money on the care of cats, but she comes as close to it as anyone I
know.
>
> > I hoped that she would
> > send information (which she did) because the amount of cost listed here
> > sounds unreasonable to me. I don't think most veterinary care for
> diabetic
> > cats would even approach the amounts that have been charged to the OP.
>
>

Following up on my own statement: I amount charged for care appears to be
incredibly high -- "outrageous," in fact.

MaryL
July 13th 03, 06:36 PM
"Caliban" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> "MaryL" > wrote
> > "Caliban" > wrote
> > > > wrote
> > > > Caliban wrote:
> > > snip
> > > > >(2) how many cats I could save down at
> > > > >the shelter with the money I was
> > > > >expending on a current but sadly very sick
> > > > >cat.
> > > >
> > > > This is really despicable of you to consider a cat disposable and
> > > > unworthy of care because of a money issue,
> > >
> > > Do you spend all your money saving cats?
> > >
> > > If not, your hypocrisy is despicable.
> > >
> >
> > Megan is licensed to care for 25 cats, and she currently is at the
maximum
> > of 25. Most of these cats were abused, neglected or feral when she
> adopted
> > them. She gave me a tremendous amount of help when I adopted Duffy, and
I
> > know enough about her circumstances to say that she really does spend
> almost
> > all of her resources on the care of these cats. Several of them are
> > undergoing very expensive care at this moment -- care that she gives
them
> > even though this means that she must deprive herself of many things that
> > most of us would consider to be basic.
>
> Assuming this is true, do you think that's fair to ask every cat owner to
do
> this?
>

Actually, I was responding to your inference that she was being hypocritical
if she didn't spend all her money on cats. She clearly can't spend "all"
her money on the care of cats, but she comes as close to it as anyone I
know.
>
> > I hoped that she would
> > send information (which she did) because the amount of cost listed here
> > sounds unreasonable to me. I don't think most veterinary care for
> diabetic
> > cats would even approach the amounts that have been charged to the OP.
>
>

Following up on my own statement: I amount charged for care appears to be
incredibly high -- "outrageous," in fact.

July 13th 03, 06:51 PM
Karen wrote:
>The costs are out of bounds. Also for the
>blockage. My cat had a blockage and after
>three days of treatment it was more like
>400 dollars (and that was an emergency
>vet, not my regular) not 1200. The OP's
>vet is exhorbitant.

I totally agree. I have had two instances in the last year dealing with
blocked cats. One belongs to a friend of mine who is legally blind and
cannot drive. She called me up scared because Buster Brown was lying on
the floor and unable to get up. I rushed her and her kitty to the ER at
about 11 at night and it turned out he was blocked. The cost to treat,
which is more expensive than a regular vet, was $500. He is now on a
strictly canned diet and doing very well with no reoccurences.

The second incident was a cat I was petsitting over Christmas. He had a
UTI right before the owner left so I was watching the litterbox like a
hawk and counting his pee clumps and looking at how big they were. After
12 hours of nothing I brought him into the vet and sure enough he was
blocked. He stayed at the clinic for three days (over the Christmas
holiday) and had to be catheterized twice during that time. The cost was
a little over $600.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 13th 03, 06:51 PM
Karen wrote:
>The costs are out of bounds. Also for the
>blockage. My cat had a blockage and after
>three days of treatment it was more like
>400 dollars (and that was an emergency
>vet, not my regular) not 1200. The OP's
>vet is exhorbitant.

I totally agree. I have had two instances in the last year dealing with
blocked cats. One belongs to a friend of mine who is legally blind and
cannot drive. She called me up scared because Buster Brown was lying on
the floor and unable to get up. I rushed her and her kitty to the ER at
about 11 at night and it turned out he was blocked. The cost to treat,
which is more expensive than a regular vet, was $500. He is now on a
strictly canned diet and doing very well with no reoccurences.

The second incident was a cat I was petsitting over Christmas. He had a
UTI right before the owner left so I was watching the litterbox like a
hawk and counting his pee clumps and looking at how big they were. After
12 hours of nothing I brought him into the vet and sure enough he was
blocked. He stayed at the clinic for three days (over the Christmas
holiday) and had to be catheterized twice during that time. The cost was
a little over $600.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 13th 03, 07:49 PM
Caliban wrote:

>That she would interpret my words as
>considering cats "disposable and
>unworthy of care" is outrageous.
>Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
>does hers.

Your post spoke so loudly that everyone interpreted it as I did.

>As is discussed here often, many agree
>that there is a point where, despite the
>best intentions, it's better to put a cat
>down.
>It may very well be that this cat is
>suffering and his time has come, couldn't
>it?

Did you even read (or comprehend) the original post??? This is not about
the cat suffering and nothing more being able to be done for it. This
about the OP's frustation with the cost of vet care and the cat getting
another UTI and possible blockage. You don't kill a cat because it has a
UTI or blockage. Sheesh. What the OP needs is an understanding shoulder
and some viable options that will help him to care for his cat better at
an infinitely smaller cost. Not suggestions that it should be killed,
especially during a time when there is a lot of frustration on the OP's
part. That is not the time to make irreversible decisions. I've offered
to help him and I hope he takes me up on it. This is nowhere near a
hopeless situation and euthanasia shouldn't even be part of the
discussion at this point.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

July 13th 03, 07:49 PM
Caliban wrote:

>That she would interpret my words as
>considering cats "disposable and
>unworthy of care" is outrageous.
>Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
>does hers.

Your post spoke so loudly that everyone interpreted it as I did.

>As is discussed here often, many agree
>that there is a point where, despite the
>best intentions, it's better to put a cat
>down.
>It may very well be that this cat is
>suffering and his time has come, couldn't
>it?

Did you even read (or comprehend) the original post??? This is not about
the cat suffering and nothing more being able to be done for it. This
about the OP's frustation with the cost of vet care and the cat getting
another UTI and possible blockage. You don't kill a cat because it has a
UTI or blockage. Sheesh. What the OP needs is an understanding shoulder
and some viable options that will help him to care for his cat better at
an infinitely smaller cost. Not suggestions that it should be killed,
especially during a time when there is a lot of frustration on the OP's
part. That is not the time to make irreversible decisions. I've offered
to help him and I hope he takes me up on it. This is nowhere near a
hopeless situation and euthanasia shouldn't even be part of the
discussion at this point.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Sherry
July 13th 03, 07:54 PM
>We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
>Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
>(another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
>I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
>the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
>am I evil?
>When is the point when enough is enough?

The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in extreme
discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let him
suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.

Sherry

Sherry
July 13th 03, 07:54 PM
>We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
>Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
>(another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
>I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
>the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
>am I evil?
>When is the point when enough is enough?

The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in extreme
discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let him
suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.

Sherry

TracyN
July 13th 03, 09:18 PM
"Philip Wagner" wrote ...
> I know most here will condemn me for suggesting it but I just can't
> keep throwing money away on our cat Andy.
>
> In summer 2002 Andy was diagnosed with diabetes. The total costs in
> two months was $1,600.00. The vet still wanted us to bring him in
> every two weeks at $200.00 a crack for day long blood sugar tests.
> This would end when they determined the insulin level was right.
> However other costs such as expensive food, and the problem of having
> other cats that try to eat this expensive food. One good thing Andy is
> so overwieght he cannot get up to the other cats food dish. When he
> wants to eat he incesantly meows until we come and pick him up and put
> him on a counter and open the container with his food. Another thing
> is the insulin, a minor cost in the sceme of things.

These costs seem very high. I had a diabetic kitty and the expenses were
nowhere near that. I would encourage you to go to the message board
at www.felinediabetes.com for advice on caring for Andy. One thing
they will suggest is that you do the blood sugar curves yourself. I had a
glucometer and tested my cats level every day in addition to doing
curves as needed. It is not very difficult once you get the hang of it.

Doesn't answer your question of when is enough enough, but maybe
it will help you find other options so that you won't feel so frustrated.

Tracy

TracyN
July 13th 03, 09:18 PM
"Philip Wagner" wrote ...
> I know most here will condemn me for suggesting it but I just can't
> keep throwing money away on our cat Andy.
>
> In summer 2002 Andy was diagnosed with diabetes. The total costs in
> two months was $1,600.00. The vet still wanted us to bring him in
> every two weeks at $200.00 a crack for day long blood sugar tests.
> This would end when they determined the insulin level was right.
> However other costs such as expensive food, and the problem of having
> other cats that try to eat this expensive food. One good thing Andy is
> so overwieght he cannot get up to the other cats food dish. When he
> wants to eat he incesantly meows until we come and pick him up and put
> him on a counter and open the container with his food. Another thing
> is the insulin, a minor cost in the sceme of things.

These costs seem very high. I had a diabetic kitty and the expenses were
nowhere near that. I would encourage you to go to the message board
at www.felinediabetes.com for advice on caring for Andy. One thing
they will suggest is that you do the blood sugar curves yourself. I had a
glucometer and tested my cats level every day in addition to doing
curves as needed. It is not very difficult once you get the hang of it.

Doesn't answer your question of when is enough enough, but maybe
it will help you find other options so that you won't feel so frustrated.

Tracy

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 09:55 PM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/13/03 1:49 PM:

> Caliban wrote:
>
>> That she would interpret my words as
>> considering cats "disposable and
>> unworthy of care" is outrageous.
>> Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
>> does hers.
>
> Your post spoke so loudly that everyone interpreted it as I did.
>
>> As is discussed here often, many agree
>> that there is a point where, despite the
>> best intentions, it's better to put a cat
>> down.
>> It may very well be that this cat is
>> suffering and his time has come, couldn't
>> it?
>
> Did you even read (or comprehend) the original post??? This is not about
> the cat suffering and nothing more being able to be done for it. This
> about the OP's frustation with the cost of vet care and the cat getting
> another UTI and possible blockage. You don't kill a cat because it has a
> UTI or blockage. Sheesh. What the OP needs is an understanding shoulder
> and some viable options that will help him to care for his cat better at
> an infinitely smaller cost. Not suggestions that it should be killed,
> especially during a time when there is a lot of frustration on the OP's
> part. That is not the time to make irreversible decisions. I've offered
> to help him and I hope he takes me up on it. This is nowhere near a
> hopeless situation and euthanasia shouldn't even be part of the
> discussion at this point.
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
Having one blockage does not even *mean* the cat will have another. So the
OP would be euthanizing on a *possibility*. It can't get much clearer than
that.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 09:55 PM
in article ,
at wrote on 7/13/03 1:49 PM:

> Caliban wrote:
>
>> That she would interpret my words as
>> considering cats "disposable and
>> unworthy of care" is outrageous.
>> Fortunately, my post speaks for itself, as
>> does hers.
>
> Your post spoke so loudly that everyone interpreted it as I did.
>
>> As is discussed here often, many agree
>> that there is a point where, despite the
>> best intentions, it's better to put a cat
>> down.
>> It may very well be that this cat is
>> suffering and his time has come, couldn't
>> it?
>
> Did you even read (or comprehend) the original post??? This is not about
> the cat suffering and nothing more being able to be done for it. This
> about the OP's frustation with the cost of vet care and the cat getting
> another UTI and possible blockage. You don't kill a cat because it has a
> UTI or blockage. Sheesh. What the OP needs is an understanding shoulder
> and some viable options that will help him to care for his cat better at
> an infinitely smaller cost. Not suggestions that it should be killed,
> especially during a time when there is a lot of frustration on the OP's
> part. That is not the time to make irreversible decisions. I've offered
> to help him and I hope he takes me up on it. This is nowhere near a
> hopeless situation and euthanasia shouldn't even be part of the
> discussion at this point.
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>
Having one blockage does not even *mean* the cat will have another. So the
OP would be euthanizing on a *possibility*. It can't get much clearer than
that.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 09:57 PM
in article , Sherry at
wrote on 7/13/03 1:54 PM:

>> We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
>> Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
>> (another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
>> I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
>> the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
>> am I evil?
>> When is the point when enough is enough?
>
> The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in
> extreme
> discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let him
> suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.
>
> Sherry

And in a blockage every moment counts. I guess if the OP just wants to wait
they won't have to euthanize as the cat can die a painful death instead.
This whole thread is absurd. I just don't think much of the OPs vet, that's
for sure. If the cat had been switched to wet food, this may not even have
happened.



Karen

Karen Chuplis
July 13th 03, 09:57 PM
in article , Sherry at
wrote on 7/13/03 1:54 PM:

>> We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
>> Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
>> (another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
>> I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
>> the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
>> am I evil?
>> When is the point when enough is enough?
>
> The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in
> extreme
> discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let him
> suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.
>
> Sherry

And in a blockage every moment counts. I guess if the OP just wants to wait
they won't have to euthanize as the cat can die a painful death instead.
This whole thread is absurd. I just don't think much of the OPs vet, that's
for sure. If the cat had been switched to wet food, this may not even have
happened.



Karen

Helen
July 14th 03, 12:04 AM
"Sherry " > wrote in message
...
> >We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
> >Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
> >(another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
> >I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
> >the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
> >am I evil?
> >When is the point when enough is enough?
>
> The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in
extreme
> discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let
him
> suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.
>
> Sherry

And not only discomfort, but the poor cat could be in agony. In the worst
case, a cat who is blocked may endure a ruptured bladder. How anybody could
consider not treating a blocked cat even for one second is beyond my
comprehension. I still remember how Harpsie screamed when he was blocked )-:

Helen

Helen
July 14th 03, 12:04 AM
"Sherry " > wrote in message
...
> >We were going to call the vet Monday to schedule that test. It is
> >Saturday night at 11:00 I catch Andy trying to pee on the carpet.
> >(another blockage) I know we should rush out to the emergency vet, but
> >I decided to wait until morning (it is now almost 1:00am) and see what
> >the night brings. He may well be dead, have I not done more than most?
> >am I evil?
> >When is the point when enough is enough?
>
> The biggest problem I see with your post is that the cat is probably in
extreme
> discomfort from the blockage. No matter what you decide, it's wrong to let
him
> suffer for 8 or 9 hours when you there is an ER available to you.
>
> Sherry

And not only discomfort, but the poor cat could be in agony. In the worst
case, a cat who is blocked may endure a ruptured bladder. How anybody could
consider not treating a blocked cat even for one second is beyond my
comprehension. I still remember how Harpsie screamed when he was blocked )-:

Helen

July 14th 03, 01:56 AM
Caliban > wrote:
>
> I think it's important to face the reality that there are very real
> financial limits to how much good a person can do.

And they should do good with the cats they already own first. After all
they took them in so those cats are their responsibility. I honestly think
if we could get a lot more people to think that way we'd have less of a
problem homing cats. A lot of times the idea of them being disposable and
you can just get another cat cheaper helps with people just giving cats
back to the shelter.

A pet is a responsibility for life, not just a money figure.

> If you have a problem with having limits to how much one can spend to save a
> cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

I understand that sometimes people can't afford care or even the
consideration of what life left the cat has and how good it would be
compared to how much cost it would be to try to give that amount/quality
of life (for example, "I don't have much money. This cat is going to cost
me 400 dollars to maybe save her/him, no guarentee, and she's 17 years
old."). It sux bigtime, but I can understand it. Sometimes the money just
isn't there.

But, I don't suscribe to the because you can save this many cats with
that money is justification to just put the cat to sleep. That's a
different arguement entirely. That's not I can't afford the care, that
is, the cat is disposable and I can just get another one (or two or
three). Your first responsibility is with the cat you took in for care,
not other cats you haven't agreed to care for yet. That should be what is
focused on, not how many other cats could be adopted with the money.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 01:56 AM
Caliban > wrote:
>
> I think it's important to face the reality that there are very real
> financial limits to how much good a person can do.

And they should do good with the cats they already own first. After all
they took them in so those cats are their responsibility. I honestly think
if we could get a lot more people to think that way we'd have less of a
problem homing cats. A lot of times the idea of them being disposable and
you can just get another cat cheaper helps with people just giving cats
back to the shelter.

A pet is a responsibility for life, not just a money figure.

> If you have a problem with having limits to how much one can spend to save a
> cat's life, then welcome to the real world.

I understand that sometimes people can't afford care or even the
consideration of what life left the cat has and how good it would be
compared to how much cost it would be to try to give that amount/quality
of life (for example, "I don't have much money. This cat is going to cost
me 400 dollars to maybe save her/him, no guarentee, and she's 17 years
old."). It sux bigtime, but I can understand it. Sometimes the money just
isn't there.

But, I don't suscribe to the because you can save this many cats with
that money is justification to just put the cat to sleep. That's a
different arguement entirely. That's not I can't afford the care, that
is, the cat is disposable and I can just get another one (or two or
three). Your first responsibility is with the cat you took in for care,
not other cats you haven't agreed to care for yet. That should be what is
focused on, not how many other cats could be adopted with the money.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 02:00 AM
Karen Chuplis > wrote:
>>
>
> The costs are out of bounds. Also for the blockage. My cat had a blockage
> and after three days of treatment it was more like 400 dollars (and that was
> an emergency vet, not my regular) not 1200. The OP's vet is exhorbitant.

Seriously. My vet rarely ever gets that high on a bill and usually it is a
bad car crash with lots of surgery required (the dog I'm remembering had
two broken legs, one had to be amputated, and a broken hip, and it reached
900, with some severe discounts because the vet realized the people were
not well off) or one time an autoimmune attack on a dog that was
particularly vicious (it was the oddest one the vet had ever seen). And
those are *RARE*. Even for most surgeries including ones getting rid of
cancers it tends to be more like 600 dollars or even 400 dollars (usually
most surgeries are more like 400).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 02:00 AM
Karen Chuplis > wrote:
>>
>
> The costs are out of bounds. Also for the blockage. My cat had a blockage
> and after three days of treatment it was more like 400 dollars (and that was
> an emergency vet, not my regular) not 1200. The OP's vet is exhorbitant.

Seriously. My vet rarely ever gets that high on a bill and usually it is a
bad car crash with lots of surgery required (the dog I'm remembering had
two broken legs, one had to be amputated, and a broken hip, and it reached
900, with some severe discounts because the vet realized the people were
not well off) or one time an autoimmune attack on a dog that was
particularly vicious (it was the oddest one the vet had ever seen). And
those are *RARE*. Even for most surgeries including ones getting rid of
cancers it tends to be more like 600 dollars or even 400 dollars (usually
most surgeries are more like 400).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

tigressnospam[email protected]
July 14th 03, 02:04 AM
Caliban > wrote:
> Don't be so black and white about who is and is not a saint. And why aren't
> you spending your money on saving the lives of children, hm? Do cats outrank
> children in your mind?

I'll donate to causes for animals a lo tmore than I'll donate to causes
for children. There are plenty more people willing to already donat their
money to save the children... less people are as willing to donate for
pets.

> You're judging, and it's out of line IMO. My point is you don't know exactly
> what the OP faces. He or she may have children to care for. What of the
> people who choose saving children over saving the family pet? Do you call
> them despicable?

The contention I've seen is not that she is horrible for not spending the
money but that she could get a second opinion and could find a cheaper
vet (it seems many thinkt he current vet is soaking her, and judging from
the price I saw, I agree). The contention I see is that people don't feel
the vet she is going to is treating her right.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 02:04 AM
Caliban > wrote:
> Don't be so black and white about who is and is not a saint. And why aren't
> you spending your money on saving the lives of children, hm? Do cats outrank
> children in your mind?

I'll donate to causes for animals a lo tmore than I'll donate to causes
for children. There are plenty more people willing to already donat their
money to save the children... less people are as willing to donate for
pets.

> You're judging, and it's out of line IMO. My point is you don't know exactly
> what the OP faces. He or she may have children to care for. What of the
> people who choose saving children over saving the family pet? Do you call
> them despicable?

The contention I've seen is not that she is horrible for not spending the
money but that she could get a second opinion and could find a cheaper
vet (it seems many thinkt he current vet is soaking her, and judging from
the price I saw, I agree). The contention I see is that people don't feel
the vet she is going to is treating her right.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 02:11 AM
wrote:
>
> Older cars require more repairs. Repars require a substantial amount of
> money. That's not a very sensible suggestion. And since my job requires

Now here I have to disagree. The youngest car I've had was 10 years old
and I've yet to have a lemon. The only thing is you need to have osme one
who knows about cars who can check the car out for you (or a trusted
mechanic to look at the car). And you can find lemons in brand new cars
too.

My 26 year old Porsche (3000 dollars purchase price) was more relaible
than friends' cars that were half its age. My 20 year old BMW, cost me
all of 3400 dollars, has so far been a very relaible car, hasn't stranded
me once.

Sorry, I had to say something here. It's a myth that an older car is
always less reliable. I think if people are willing to research type of
car and get one that was well built, and have some one who can check the
car out for them to make sure it has been maintained well and doesn't have
anything about to die, they can find a very good car for a lot cheaper.
(I'd personally recomend an old BMW 325e ;) ).

Sure, I could buy a brand new Kia for 6000 dollars, but I bet you my 20
year old BMW will last me longer and even with any repairs I will still
end up paying less than I did for that Kia (including initial cost of
BMW).

Alice (ok, admittedly I cheat a little here, I have a roommate who works
on cars so any repairs I pay for dinner and parts price, but even so I bet
I'd break even with the Kia and have a better car with more options for
a similar price)

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

July 14th 03, 02:11 AM
wrote:
>
> Older cars require more repairs. Repars require a substantial amount of
> money. That's not a very sensible suggestion. And since my job requires

Now here I have to disagree. The youngest car I've had was 10 years old
and I've yet to have a lemon. The only thing is you need to have osme one
who knows about cars who can check the car out for you (or a trusted
mechanic to look at the car). And you can find lemons in brand new cars
too.

My 26 year old Porsche (3000 dollars purchase price) was more relaible
than friends' cars that were half its age. My 20 year old BMW, cost me
all of 3400 dollars, has so far been a very relaible car, hasn't stranded
me once.

Sorry, I had to say something here. It's a myth that an older car is
always less reliable. I think if people are willing to research type of
car and get one that was well built, and have some one who can check the
car out for them to make sure it has been maintained well and doesn't have
anything about to die, they can find a very good car for a lot cheaper.
(I'd personally recomend an old BMW 325e ;) ).

Sure, I could buy a brand new Kia for 6000 dollars, but I bet you my 20
year old BMW will last me longer and even with any repairs I will still
end up paying less than I did for that Kia (including initial cost of
BMW).

Alice (ok, admittedly I cheat a little here, I have a roommate who works
on cars so any repairs I pay for dinner and parts price, but even so I bet
I'd break even with the Kia and have a better car with more options for
a similar price)

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Liz
July 14th 03, 03:10 AM
Phillip, please go to the following site and choose a canned food with
ZERO carbohydrates. You will get rid of both problems at once (urinary
blockage and diabetes) and no more spending fortunes with that vet.

http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html

Liz
July 14th 03, 03:10 AM
Phillip, please go to the following site and choose a canned food with
ZERO carbohydrates. You will get rid of both problems at once (urinary
blockage and diabetes) and no more spending fortunes with that vet.

http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html