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paghat
July 29th 03, 10:07 PM
> > > [someone said]
> > > You can't just leash a cat into your yard like a dog.
> >

> Though the greater part of me laments the days when every neighborhood had
> dogs & children & cats & chickens running loose without fences or
> supervision or cages or leashes, short of cutting back the human
> population by about three-fourths immediately, we are not apt ever to see
> those days again, not in regions anywhere near cities, towns, or suburbs.
>
> It was once regarded as normal to let the dogs do as they pleased & if
> they did per chance begin biting children or killing chickens, the dogs
> were sumarily shot, and no one was sued. Today it is simply illegal to let
> them run loose. It was once normal if one's five-year-old child played in
> an empty lot or the nearest woods with a couple other little friends, but
> now without adult supervision, a parent could be arrested for criminally
> endangering a child or putting it at risk of being carted off & molested
> by some adult member of our increasingly psychotic society.
>
> I've lived long enough to see so many ordinary behaviors become
> criminalized, & our rights & privileges whittled away from ourselves, our
> children, our pets, for all sorts of rational-seeming reasons. The only
> wonder is that with everything else restricted or banned, how is that in
> most places it is still at least legal to let the cats roam loose,
> annoying the bejabbers out of non-cat people. It's easy to see in what
> direction we're "evolving" & the same sorts of neighbors who helped pass
> laws so your rooster won't wake them up in the morning, so your dog won't
> be unfenced or unleashed, so you can't have a pony or a llama or sweet
> little jenny inside the city limits, so that even your safely caged pet
> python is illegal in a growing number of places -- does anyone REALLY
> think this same spreading attitude against animals will permit cats to
> roam at will for a great many years yet to come?
>
> To me it is strange that the ferret, which is the third-most-popular pet
> mammal (other than rodents) after dogs & cats, is an illegal pet in
> California. The pet skunks I cared for as a child, if I had them now, I
> could be arrested, & my pets destroyed, if I had them today -- even such
> domestic strains as the white, albino white, & chocoalte skunks raised in
> southern skunkeries & hand-raised as the sweetest pets imaginable are no
> an exception here in Washington. Nowadays increasing breeds of dogs are
> being made illegal because of a few irresponsible owners turning public
> sentiment even against Man's Best Friend. The way things are going, cat
> lovers will have to count themselves lucky if cats are even still LEGAL a
> few more years down the line! They carry more diseases to people, some of
> them fatal, than do dogs, so just think of the excuses that can be made to
> ban them.
>
> This indicates the INEVITABLE future for cats, too. In fact indoor cats
> that have no liberty to carouse neighborhoods live much longer lives than
> outdoor cats, & it WILL be argued that letting cats run free is very cruel
> & their shortened lives prove it.
>
> I sure don't say it's a good thing that such restrictions are coming. I
> really don't mind the neighbors' cats visiting me, never understood why
> the occasional cat turn gets some non-cat people up in arms. But it's a
> fact, the days of the free-range kitty is going to go the way of the
> free-range family dog or even the free-range human being. Animal lovers
> will say its to protect the life of the cat, others will say it's because
> letting cats **** in neighbors' gardens is a public health issue, or that
> letting cats roam about killing whatever little bit is left of native
> fauna, particularly songbirds, is criminally irresponsible. Someday --
> sooner than they may right now believe -- cat owners will risk fines,
> arrest, or imprisonment, as well as the "putting down" of the kitties for
> scratching a neighbor kid (a greatrer source of disease than dogbites, &
> happens more often too), or for being off leash.
>
> Here are a couple cool websites about cat leashing; you might as well
> start preparing now:
> http://freeairpress.com/Cats/leash.html
> http://www.peoriahs.org/catleash.html
>
> -paghat the ratgirl

Looks like I was behind the times on that post. Cats outdoors & off
leashes have already been banned state-wide in Florida (will soon be
banned state-wide in Illinois), in several entire counties, & in such
diverse cities as Gaitherburg & Rockville MD & all Prince George County ;
Houston & Arlington TX (Austin considering it); Laurel City, Montana;
Naperville, IL; Hendersonville TN; Fayetteville Arkansas; Tulsa OK; San
Jose, CA & all of Holister County; Akron OH; & many other places, with Cat
Leash Laws under consideration in every other part of the country. Laws
typically levy fines of $100, sometimes less, but can be much more,
especially for repeat violators. Second offenses commonly require full
court appearances.

The Akron cat leash law resulted in thousands of cats just trapped &
killed. Witham & Charlotte Counties in Florida had cat leash laws before
it went state-wide, as did many Florida towns & cities. When the Witham
law went into effect, there were some outcries against it, but the voices
in favor far outnumbered the voices of cat advocates. And the only reason
a great many more cats weren't trapped & killed was because the Sherrif's
Animal Control Unit did not have funding for the extra staff to answer the
sudden radical increase in complaints demanding the trapping & removal of
neighbors' wayward cats.

Leash laws kill cats in two ways. First because any cat that is not also
collared & liscensed will be taken to animal control and in the majority
of cases destroyed. Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences. For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death. Then it is
trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.

The real reason so many legislators want these laws is NOT because of a
sudden burgeoning of hatred for cats. It's a windfall of hidden taxes.
Every time Bush cuts taxes for the richest 2% in the country, everyone
else gets higher local fees, fines, liscenses to pick up the slack --
fees, fines, & liscenses that regulate every aspect of daily life. The
Illinois legislation will permit multiple fees be charged every one who
has a cat even if their cat never roams free. High fees that will be
raised higher year by year. The public health & well being is NOT the real
consideration of (as present example) Illinois legisation. It is a MAJOR
revenue-enhancer for the state, as even if they don't get to fine you,
you'll be paying three separate fees or your cat is not legal. There will
be a cat REGISTRATION FEE, annual LISCENSE fee, a LITTER TAX if your cat
reproduces, FINES if your cat so much as suns itself on the sidewalk in
front of where it lives. Plus the cost of cutting out its sex organs, plus
the cost of legally required microchipping, because the Illinois
legislation also proposes to require microchipping of all cats. Note that
microchipping protects animals only if an owner signs up & pays for a 24
hour service for tracking lost animals; otherwise the whole purpose of
microchipping is to track down & levy fines against owners. If there is
insufficient funding to call & let an owner know its cat will be killed if
not picked up within the day, then no phone call will ever be made, but a
ticket will arrive in the mail since come what may money must be given to
the state. If Illinois does get this state-wide legislation in place,
which is by far the most draconian of cat leash laws to date, it will be
the model for all other states that need to come up with novel methods of
raising revenues -- & there aren't a lot of ways to get MULTIPLE hidden
taxes all in one swell foop, so this one's a big winner.

In favor of cat leash laws: bird advocates have claimed increasing
populations of some of the more easily captured songbirds after cat-leash
laws & mass-round-ups & cat-killings lowered the population of roaming
cats. It is estimated that in an average small city, cats kill a
quarter-million birds annually, with delicate birds more easily preyed
upon. Cats kept indoors also have longer average lifespans, no longer
susceptible to diseases from encounters with feral animals, getting run
over by cars, poisoned by irate neighbors, or mauled in cat fights or by
dogs. For these and other reasons, the Humane Society supports cat leash &
confinement laws.

So my prediction that cat leashing was going a FUTURE certainty was
offered too late to be merely alarmist. My sense that such laws would
mainly occur in cities & suburbs but not rural areas was dead wrong, as it
is already a counties-wide & state-wide bans are in effect or pending. It
is estimated that in less than ten years the age of the free-roaming cat
will be over. Since cat-disdain recurs so often in this gardening group,
among people who don't want cats fertilizng their gardens, I assume there
is more support for this than I personally feel. To me it's just one more
of the million little ways every breath any of us take, man or beast, is
criminalized or otherwise regulated by the government. These laws empower
loony animal-haters to harrass even the most responsible pet owners at
risk of fines or having animals carted off & destroyed to the delight of
Mister or Missus Evil****s who wish they could also burn down your whole
damn house with you & your kids in it, but will settle for the legal right
to trap & destroy your cat if it sets foot in their yard, or report you to
the government if your cat lounges even so far from the house as the
immediate sidewalk.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Wendy Chatley Green
July 30th 03, 12:43 AM
For some inexplicable reasons, (paghat)
wrote:

: Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
:themselves on trees and fences.

Why don't the people on the other end of the leashes notice that the
cat has hung itself on a tree or a fence? They can't be more than 6
to 12 feet away.

--
Wendy Chatley Green

Wendy Chatley Green
July 30th 03, 12:43 AM
For some inexplicable reasons, (paghat)
wrote:

: Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
:themselves on trees and fences.

Why don't the people on the other end of the leashes notice that the
cat has hung itself on a tree or a fence? They can't be more than 6
to 12 feet away.

--
Wendy Chatley Green

kaeli
July 30th 03, 02:43 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Leash laws kill cats in two ways. First because any cat that is not also
> collared & liscensed will be taken to animal control and in the majority
> of cases destroyed. Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> themselves on trees and fences. For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
> bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death. Then it is
> trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.
>

Gee, this doesn't happen to dogs. And how does a cat hang itself when
the owner has the other end of the leash in their hand? How bizarre...

Dogs should be leashed. Cats should be leashed. In fact, no pet,
regardless of species, should wander around unsupervised, be it a dog, a
horse, a cat, or a ferret.
They should be on their owner's property or under their control at all
times. It's a pet. Take care of it. Your neighbors shouldn't have to
deal with the nuisance. It's not their animal.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
July 30th 03, 02:43 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Leash laws kill cats in two ways. First because any cat that is not also
> collared & liscensed will be taken to animal control and in the majority
> of cases destroyed. Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> themselves on trees and fences. For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
> bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death. Then it is
> trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.
>

Gee, this doesn't happen to dogs. And how does a cat hang itself when
the owner has the other end of the leash in their hand? How bizarre...

Dogs should be leashed. Cats should be leashed. In fact, no pet,
regardless of species, should wander around unsupervised, be it a dog, a
horse, a cat, or a ferret.
They should be on their owner's property or under their control at all
times. It's a pet. Take care of it. Your neighbors shouldn't have to
deal with the nuisance. It's not their animal.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Black holes were created when God divided by 0.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion
that life is serious.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Some One
July 30th 03, 05:38 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> >
> > Leash laws kill cats in two ways. First because any cat that is
not also
> > collared & liscensed will be taken to animal control and in the
majority
> > of cases destroyed. Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > themselves on trees and fences. For this reason a good cat collar
has "pop
> > bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> > position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death. Then
it is
> > trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and
destroyed.
> >
>
> Gee, this doesn't happen to dogs. And how does a cat hang itself
when
> the owner has the other end of the leash in their hand? How
bizarre...

Are you really that stupid?

When you let your dog into the back yard to dump, there is (should be)
a fence to keep them in. This doesn't work with cats, so all you can
do (according to the cat haters) is leash them to a tree/post so they
don't get out of the yard.

Cats are OUTDOOR animals. If you want an indoor animal, get a fish.

> Dogs should be leashed. Cats should be leashed. In fact, no pet,
> regardless of species, should wander around unsupervised, be it a
dog, a
> horse, a cat, or a ferret.
> They should be on their owner's property or under their control at
all
> times. It's a pet. Take care of it. Your neighbors shouldn't have to
> deal with the nuisance. It's not their animal.

I assume you roam the neighbourhoods making sure that the wildlife is
the only thing on the streets? Foxes and skunks aren't a problem at
all. It's just the pets, eh?

Some One
July 30th 03, 05:38 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> >
> > Leash laws kill cats in two ways. First because any cat that is
not also
> > collared & liscensed will be taken to animal control and in the
majority
> > of cases destroyed. Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > themselves on trees and fences. For this reason a good cat collar
has "pop
> > bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> > position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death. Then
it is
> > trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and
destroyed.
> >
>
> Gee, this doesn't happen to dogs. And how does a cat hang itself
when
> the owner has the other end of the leash in their hand? How
bizarre...

Are you really that stupid?

When you let your dog into the back yard to dump, there is (should be)
a fence to keep them in. This doesn't work with cats, so all you can
do (according to the cat haters) is leash them to a tree/post so they
don't get out of the yard.

Cats are OUTDOOR animals. If you want an indoor animal, get a fish.

> Dogs should be leashed. Cats should be leashed. In fact, no pet,
> regardless of species, should wander around unsupervised, be it a
dog, a
> horse, a cat, or a ferret.
> They should be on their owner's property or under their control at
all
> times. It's a pet. Take care of it. Your neighbors shouldn't have to
> deal with the nuisance. It's not their animal.

I assume you roam the neighbourhoods making sure that the wildlife is
the only thing on the streets? Foxes and skunks aren't a problem at
all. It's just the pets, eh?

Elaine Rene
July 31st 03, 12:20 AM
"paghat" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>
> > I'm sorry, but cats *are* a problem for many people. Just as I
> > wouldn't allow my dogs, cats, snakes, turtle, husband, child, or
> > myself, to urinate or defecate on, or otherwise destroy, your
> > property, I expect the same level of respect from my fellow citizens.
> > Some sense of decorum must be maintained.
>
> ANd there's the real problem. Very little wildlife is permitted to survive
> around humans because humans hate wildlife. All wildlife is re-defined as
> "vermin" and rooted out of the environment, everything paved over. People
> have already killed most of the wildlife, now an increasing percentage of
> people & places are seeing what can be done to get rid of domestic animals
> too. The day will come when "there are songbirds pooping in my garden!"
> will allow the bird protection act to be overturned & all birds will go
> the way of passenger pigeons, except for any that can be microchipped &
> caged & benefit the government through increasing numbers of increasingly
> expensive taxes, liscenses, & fees.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
>

Very well summed up. Humans just hate to share "their"(?) space.

Elaine

Elaine Rene
July 31st 03, 12:20 AM
"paghat" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>
> > I'm sorry, but cats *are* a problem for many people. Just as I
> > wouldn't allow my dogs, cats, snakes, turtle, husband, child, or
> > myself, to urinate or defecate on, or otherwise destroy, your
> > property, I expect the same level of respect from my fellow citizens.
> > Some sense of decorum must be maintained.
>
> ANd there's the real problem. Very little wildlife is permitted to survive
> around humans because humans hate wildlife. All wildlife is re-defined as
> "vermin" and rooted out of the environment, everything paved over. People
> have already killed most of the wildlife, now an increasing percentage of
> people & places are seeing what can be done to get rid of domestic animals
> too. The day will come when "there are songbirds pooping in my garden!"
> will allow the bird protection act to be overturned & all birds will go
> the way of passenger pigeons, except for any that can be microchipped &
> caged & benefit the government through increasing numbers of increasingly
> expensive taxes, liscenses, & fees.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
>

Very well summed up. Humans just hate to share "their"(?) space.

Elaine

-L.
July 31st 03, 01:47 AM
(paghat) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> > (paghat) wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > > [someone said]
> >
> > Such laws are not enforced in most jurisdictions. I never had more
> > rogue cat problems than I did in San Jose.
>
> Oh, they're enforced now all righty.

Not in San Jose, as of last March. I lived there three years and
never had any law enforcement agent do anything about the 10 or 12
rogue cats in our neighborhood.

>But it really depends on how loony
> the neighbors are & whether they're sufficiently cat-hating to insist to
> police or animal control that no cats be permitted to lounge on the
> sidewalk off their property.
>
> > >
> > > Leash laws kill cats in two ways.
> >
> > Nope. Owners who do not contain their cats are the ones responsible
> > for killing them. Responsibility starts at home. I love my cats
> > dearly, but rogue cats are a nuisance, and it is the people who allow
> > their cats to interfere with other's enjoyment of their OWN property
> > are that to blame, if their cats are caught and destroyed as a result
> > of their negligence.
>
> As point of fact it is the collar that kills cats, & no degree of
> responsibility makes it safe to collar a cat.

I agree that a cat should not ever be collar4ed, break-away or not.

>It's why good cat collars
> are break-away like pop-beads,

My point was, break-away collars injure and kill cats as well.

>& that's why laws should not permit a lost
> cat to be summarily destroyed.

If the cat is microchipped, this sin't an issue.

>The lack of collar may NOT be the owners
> fault. And if you think the fence has ever been made that cats cannot
> climb over, you've really been doing a very good job of not observing
> cats.

http://www.catfencein.com/

It does a damn good job of keeping my cats in the yard, and other cats
out. I have cats and when they go outside, I go with them. They are
not allowed to go outside my fenced property. I expect my neighbors
to do the same.


>
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> But that is what the law requires.

The law does not require tethering a cat and leaving it unattended.

besides, leashing and tethering are separate acts. I walked my cats
on leashes prior to living in Oregon because I didn't have suitable
places to allow them to roam - they jumped the fence, and since we
didn't own the home, I couldn't install the barriers.

> But anyway, it is the collar itself
> that can get caught on branches & hang a cat. Since no fence holds a cat,

A fence will hold a cat, especially if the owner is present to make
sure the cat doesn't foil the barrier.


> containment laws means it can never be let outside at all unless tethered.

That's ridiculous. The issue is you want to allow cats outside
*unattended*. Ok. I have given you a system that works for me (and
other people I know) - a 6 ft. cedar fence with a CAT BARRIER. I
still don't trust my cats outside unattended because I fear they will
escape although they have not to date. You have to accept
responsibility for your pet. Allowing it to roam is not responsible,
and YES society has the right to make you responsible for the actions
of your companion animals.


> Both a non-break-away collar OR a tether can kill a cat, but without one
> or the other, a cat can "escape" to no further than the next yard, & be at
> complete risk of being destroyed, and/or the owner fined because the cat
> behaves as a normal cat.
>
> > >For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
> > > bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> > > position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death.
> >
> > "Break-away" collars can cause death or injury as well. One of the
> > worst degloving injuries I have ever seen was caused by a "break-away"
> > collar.
>
> An argument that furthers the idea that the greater "responsibility" is to
> not collar cats at all.

Like I said, I don't believe in collaring cats.


>
> > > Then it is
> > > trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.
> > >
> > > The real reason so many legislators want these laws is NOT because of a
> > > sudden burgeoning of hatred for cats. It's a windfall of hidden taxes.
> > > Every time Bush cuts taxes for the richest 2% in the country, everyone
> > > else gets higher local fees, fines, liscenses to pick up the slack --
> > > fees, fines, & liscenses that regulate every aspect of daily life. The
> > > Illinois legislation will permit multiple fees be charged every one who
> > > has a cat even if their cat never roams free. High fees that will be
> > > raised higher year by year.
> >
> > While I agree with your politics, one can rebel by simply not
> > registering their cats. If your cats are controlled and you take
> > responsibility for them, not registering them is never a problem.
> >
> > >The public health & well being is NOT the real
> > > consideration of (as present example) Illinois legisation.
> >
> > Cats are not currently a threat to public health. Some are, however,
> > vectors for toxoplasmosis which is serious only for the
> > immunocompromised and pregnant. (Although the primary route of
> > infection in humans is undercooked meat).
>
> Zoonotic diseases from cats number around 100.

Yes, but how many of those are a threat to public health? The only
disease that is considered worthy of warning by the CDC is
toxoplasmosis.


>While immunocompromised
> individuals (individuals with HIV or anyone receiving chemotherapy or
> allergy-prone or asthmatic) are at far greater risk of outright death by
> kitty, but death is the slightest component of a frightening public health
> picture. I dunno that I should correct your misinformation as I like cats
> & don't want to further arm the legions who apparently think the only good
> cat is a caged cat. MANY bacteriums (but few viruses) spread readily to
> humans from cats, especially cats manifesting overt symptoms of illness
> such as diarrhea. The so-called "Cat scratch fever" is EXTREMELY common &
> probably no child reaches teenage years without at least one of the
> infections associated with cat scratches, though it is never specifically
> diagnosed but generically treated. One study found that in shelters, 40%
> of cats carry the Rochalimaea bacteria that is the key cause catscratch
> fever.

If it (or other zoonotic diseases) was a threat to public health,
there would be an aggressive campaign to eradicate the disease in cats
and humans, or at least, warnings would be disseminated as they are
for toxo. Those programs simply do not exist because the threat from
the disease is small.

<snip>
>
> And so on. That's not even a tenth of the possibilities. Some are rare,
> some are extremely common, some are severe & life-threatening,

Which are "severe and life threatening" AND pose a threat to public
health in the US?


>many pass
> quickly enough even without a trip to the doctor. Virtually everyone who
> has ever had pets has had at least one or two zoonotic diseases in their
> lifetime whether they know it or not. In the main it's no more frightening
> than having had the mumps when a kid & no reason to kill or restrict all
> cats. But for the many people in this world who are already cat-haters,

People who let their cats roam do way more to fuel the fires of the
cat-haters of the world than any perceived threat to public health.


> it's just one more reason it's a "good" thing that cat-leash laws are
> spreading like wildfire so that a cat's normal three or four property
> territory will soon be illegal in most places.

Good, as it should be.

>
> > >plus
> > > the cost of legally required microchipping, because the Illinois
> > > legislation also proposes to require microchipping of all cats. Note that
> > > microchipping protects animals only if an owner signs up & pays for a 24
> > > hour service for tracking lost animals;
> >
> > Microchipping is inexpensive and *essential* for anyone who loves
> > their cat, and wants to get it back, if it were ever to be lost.
>
> Cats rarely become "lost"

You haven't worked in rescue much, have you?

>& microchipping is not essential. A normal cat
> ranges over three to five properties & always knows its way home. The ONLY
> reason the Illinois legislation will require microchipping is so the owner
> of the cat rounded up for going next door can be fined.

good. Identifying the "owners" of problem cats takes the blame off of
use who abide by the law.

>Cat leash laws do
> not make it a requirement that the cat be cared for properly until
> returned to its owner.

If a cat is turned into the proper authority, they have an obligation
to keep the cat under standard conditions until it is claimed,
rehomed, or destroyed.

>Raising revenue is the real purpose, & the safety
> of the public or of the animals is extremely secondary.

Seems to me that people who let their cats roam wantonly are the ones
who are unconcerned for the safety of their animals...

>Which is why
> funding for shelters gets cut even as the law demands more animals be
> rounded up.
>
> The issue of killing birds has some credibility. The issue of roaming cats
> being injured by dogs, cars, or each other, has some credibility.

Or humans

>But the
> idea that microchipping is necessary because cats easily become lost is
> absurd,

I didn't say they "easily become lost". I said if they were to become
lost. A microchip is the only safe way to identify a cat - not
collars with tags, which you yourself admit is undesirable for good
reason.

I worked for a feline specialty veterinarian and cannot tell you how
many times people "found a new stray" in their neighborhood, and
brought it in to us for care. Our policy was to scan it for microchip,
and if one was found, the registry was contacted and the cat reunited
with the original owner. Microchipping works. I'm damn glad my cats
are microchipped. If you let your cat roam and have irate neighbors,
they might just pick up your friendly kitty and drop him off in
another neighborhood, or another town. The only way you are going to
get your cat back is if it is microchipped.


>& it is not the reason microchipping is being legislated. It is
> being legislated SOLELY so that the owner of the captured & possibly
> destroyed cat can be fined for revenue purposes.

Sorry, but having worked in the rescue arena for over 15 years, I can
tell you that not all animal control people are heartless witches.
Most want nothing more than to help reunite animals with their owners.
Nobody likes to euthanize an animal.

>
> > I'm sorry, but cats *are* a problem for many people. Just as I
> > wouldn't allow my dogs, cats, snakes, turtle, husband, child, or
> > myself, to urinate or defecate on, or otherwise destroy, your
> > property, I expect the same level of respect from my fellow citizens.
> > Some sense of decorum must be maintained.
>
> ANd there's the real problem. Very little wildlife is permitted to survive
> around humans because humans hate wildlife.

Cats aren't wildlife.

>All wildlife is re-defined as
> "vermin" and rooted out of the environment, everything paved over.

Not where I live.

>People
> have already killed most of the wildlife, now an increasing percentage of
> people & places are seeing what can be done to get rid of domestic animals
> too.

Domestic animals are not a problem if they are well cared-for by their
responsible "owners". You cannot *pretend* to take responsibility for
the life of another living creature, and then shirk all of that
responsibility.


>The day will come when "there are songbirds pooping in my garden!"
> will allow the bird protection act to be overturned & all birds will go
> the way of passenger pigeons, except for any that can be microchipped &
> caged & benefit the government through increasing numbers of increasingly
> expensive taxes, liscenses, & fees.

Oh, please. Now you are being melodramatic.

Cats and dogs are not wild animals. You cannot expect them to be
given the same protection under the law. They are part of an
artificial system which HUMANS created, and HUMANS have to be
responsible for them.

-L.

-L.
July 31st 03, 01:47 AM
(paghat) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (-L.) wrote:
>
> > (paghat) wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > > [someone said]
> >
> > Such laws are not enforced in most jurisdictions. I never had more
> > rogue cat problems than I did in San Jose.
>
> Oh, they're enforced now all righty.

Not in San Jose, as of last March. I lived there three years and
never had any law enforcement agent do anything about the 10 or 12
rogue cats in our neighborhood.

>But it really depends on how loony
> the neighbors are & whether they're sufficiently cat-hating to insist to
> police or animal control that no cats be permitted to lounge on the
> sidewalk off their property.
>
> > >
> > > Leash laws kill cats in two ways.
> >
> > Nope. Owners who do not contain their cats are the ones responsible
> > for killing them. Responsibility starts at home. I love my cats
> > dearly, but rogue cats are a nuisance, and it is the people who allow
> > their cats to interfere with other's enjoyment of their OWN property
> > are that to blame, if their cats are caught and destroyed as a result
> > of their negligence.
>
> As point of fact it is the collar that kills cats, & no degree of
> responsibility makes it safe to collar a cat.

I agree that a cat should not ever be collar4ed, break-away or not.

>It's why good cat collars
> are break-away like pop-beads,

My point was, break-away collars injure and kill cats as well.

>& that's why laws should not permit a lost
> cat to be summarily destroyed.

If the cat is microchipped, this sin't an issue.

>The lack of collar may NOT be the owners
> fault. And if you think the fence has ever been made that cats cannot
> climb over, you've really been doing a very good job of not observing
> cats.

http://www.catfencein.com/

It does a damn good job of keeping my cats in the yard, and other cats
out. I have cats and when they go outside, I go with them. They are
not allowed to go outside my fenced property. I expect my neighbors
to do the same.


>
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> But that is what the law requires.

The law does not require tethering a cat and leaving it unattended.

besides, leashing and tethering are separate acts. I walked my cats
on leashes prior to living in Oregon because I didn't have suitable
places to allow them to roam - they jumped the fence, and since we
didn't own the home, I couldn't install the barriers.

> But anyway, it is the collar itself
> that can get caught on branches & hang a cat. Since no fence holds a cat,

A fence will hold a cat, especially if the owner is present to make
sure the cat doesn't foil the barrier.


> containment laws means it can never be let outside at all unless tethered.

That's ridiculous. The issue is you want to allow cats outside
*unattended*. Ok. I have given you a system that works for me (and
other people I know) - a 6 ft. cedar fence with a CAT BARRIER. I
still don't trust my cats outside unattended because I fear they will
escape although they have not to date. You have to accept
responsibility for your pet. Allowing it to roam is not responsible,
and YES society has the right to make you responsible for the actions
of your companion animals.


> Both a non-break-away collar OR a tether can kill a cat, but without one
> or the other, a cat can "escape" to no further than the next yard, & be at
> complete risk of being destroyed, and/or the owner fined because the cat
> behaves as a normal cat.
>
> > >For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
> > > bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
> > > position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death.
> >
> > "Break-away" collars can cause death or injury as well. One of the
> > worst degloving injuries I have ever seen was caused by a "break-away"
> > collar.
>
> An argument that furthers the idea that the greater "responsibility" is to
> not collar cats at all.

Like I said, I don't believe in collaring cats.


>
> > > Then it is
> > > trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.
> > >
> > > The real reason so many legislators want these laws is NOT because of a
> > > sudden burgeoning of hatred for cats. It's a windfall of hidden taxes.
> > > Every time Bush cuts taxes for the richest 2% in the country, everyone
> > > else gets higher local fees, fines, liscenses to pick up the slack --
> > > fees, fines, & liscenses that regulate every aspect of daily life. The
> > > Illinois legislation will permit multiple fees be charged every one who
> > > has a cat even if their cat never roams free. High fees that will be
> > > raised higher year by year.
> >
> > While I agree with your politics, one can rebel by simply not
> > registering their cats. If your cats are controlled and you take
> > responsibility for them, not registering them is never a problem.
> >
> > >The public health & well being is NOT the real
> > > consideration of (as present example) Illinois legisation.
> >
> > Cats are not currently a threat to public health. Some are, however,
> > vectors for toxoplasmosis which is serious only for the
> > immunocompromised and pregnant. (Although the primary route of
> > infection in humans is undercooked meat).
>
> Zoonotic diseases from cats number around 100.

Yes, but how many of those are a threat to public health? The only
disease that is considered worthy of warning by the CDC is
toxoplasmosis.


>While immunocompromised
> individuals (individuals with HIV or anyone receiving chemotherapy or
> allergy-prone or asthmatic) are at far greater risk of outright death by
> kitty, but death is the slightest component of a frightening public health
> picture. I dunno that I should correct your misinformation as I like cats
> & don't want to further arm the legions who apparently think the only good
> cat is a caged cat. MANY bacteriums (but few viruses) spread readily to
> humans from cats, especially cats manifesting overt symptoms of illness
> such as diarrhea. The so-called "Cat scratch fever" is EXTREMELY common &
> probably no child reaches teenage years without at least one of the
> infections associated with cat scratches, though it is never specifically
> diagnosed but generically treated. One study found that in shelters, 40%
> of cats carry the Rochalimaea bacteria that is the key cause catscratch
> fever.

If it (or other zoonotic diseases) was a threat to public health,
there would be an aggressive campaign to eradicate the disease in cats
and humans, or at least, warnings would be disseminated as they are
for toxo. Those programs simply do not exist because the threat from
the disease is small.

<snip>
>
> And so on. That's not even a tenth of the possibilities. Some are rare,
> some are extremely common, some are severe & life-threatening,

Which are "severe and life threatening" AND pose a threat to public
health in the US?


>many pass
> quickly enough even without a trip to the doctor. Virtually everyone who
> has ever had pets has had at least one or two zoonotic diseases in their
> lifetime whether they know it or not. In the main it's no more frightening
> than having had the mumps when a kid & no reason to kill or restrict all
> cats. But for the many people in this world who are already cat-haters,

People who let their cats roam do way more to fuel the fires of the
cat-haters of the world than any perceived threat to public health.


> it's just one more reason it's a "good" thing that cat-leash laws are
> spreading like wildfire so that a cat's normal three or four property
> territory will soon be illegal in most places.

Good, as it should be.

>
> > >plus
> > > the cost of legally required microchipping, because the Illinois
> > > legislation also proposes to require microchipping of all cats. Note that
> > > microchipping protects animals only if an owner signs up & pays for a 24
> > > hour service for tracking lost animals;
> >
> > Microchipping is inexpensive and *essential* for anyone who loves
> > their cat, and wants to get it back, if it were ever to be lost.
>
> Cats rarely become "lost"

You haven't worked in rescue much, have you?

>& microchipping is not essential. A normal cat
> ranges over three to five properties & always knows its way home. The ONLY
> reason the Illinois legislation will require microchipping is so the owner
> of the cat rounded up for going next door can be fined.

good. Identifying the "owners" of problem cats takes the blame off of
use who abide by the law.

>Cat leash laws do
> not make it a requirement that the cat be cared for properly until
> returned to its owner.

If a cat is turned into the proper authority, they have an obligation
to keep the cat under standard conditions until it is claimed,
rehomed, or destroyed.

>Raising revenue is the real purpose, & the safety
> of the public or of the animals is extremely secondary.

Seems to me that people who let their cats roam wantonly are the ones
who are unconcerned for the safety of their animals...

>Which is why
> funding for shelters gets cut even as the law demands more animals be
> rounded up.
>
> The issue of killing birds has some credibility. The issue of roaming cats
> being injured by dogs, cars, or each other, has some credibility.

Or humans

>But the
> idea that microchipping is necessary because cats easily become lost is
> absurd,

I didn't say they "easily become lost". I said if they were to become
lost. A microchip is the only safe way to identify a cat - not
collars with tags, which you yourself admit is undesirable for good
reason.

I worked for a feline specialty veterinarian and cannot tell you how
many times people "found a new stray" in their neighborhood, and
brought it in to us for care. Our policy was to scan it for microchip,
and if one was found, the registry was contacted and the cat reunited
with the original owner. Microchipping works. I'm damn glad my cats
are microchipped. If you let your cat roam and have irate neighbors,
they might just pick up your friendly kitty and drop him off in
another neighborhood, or another town. The only way you are going to
get your cat back is if it is microchipped.


>& it is not the reason microchipping is being legislated. It is
> being legislated SOLELY so that the owner of the captured & possibly
> destroyed cat can be fined for revenue purposes.

Sorry, but having worked in the rescue arena for over 15 years, I can
tell you that not all animal control people are heartless witches.
Most want nothing more than to help reunite animals with their owners.
Nobody likes to euthanize an animal.

>
> > I'm sorry, but cats *are* a problem for many people. Just as I
> > wouldn't allow my dogs, cats, snakes, turtle, husband, child, or
> > myself, to urinate or defecate on, or otherwise destroy, your
> > property, I expect the same level of respect from my fellow citizens.
> > Some sense of decorum must be maintained.
>
> ANd there's the real problem. Very little wildlife is permitted to survive
> around humans because humans hate wildlife.

Cats aren't wildlife.

>All wildlife is re-defined as
> "vermin" and rooted out of the environment, everything paved over.

Not where I live.

>People
> have already killed most of the wildlife, now an increasing percentage of
> people & places are seeing what can be done to get rid of domestic animals
> too.

Domestic animals are not a problem if they are well cared-for by their
responsible "owners". You cannot *pretend* to take responsibility for
the life of another living creature, and then shirk all of that
responsibility.


>The day will come when "there are songbirds pooping in my garden!"
> will allow the bird protection act to be overturned & all birds will go
> the way of passenger pigeons, except for any that can be microchipped &
> caged & benefit the government through increasing numbers of increasingly
> expensive taxes, liscenses, & fees.

Oh, please. Now you are being melodramatic.

Cats and dogs are not wild animals. You cannot expect them to be
given the same protection under the law. They are part of an
artificial system which HUMANS created, and HUMANS have to be
responsible for them.

-L.

-L.
July 31st 03, 01:49 AM
"Some One" > wrote in message >...
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.

That's debatable. Some cats don't like going outdoors, some do. I
believe if you can allow your cats outdoors responsibly, and it is
safe to do so, then they should be allowed to go outdoors.

-L.

-L.
July 31st 03, 01:49 AM
"Some One" > wrote in message >...
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.

That's debatable. Some cats don't like going outdoors, some do. I
believe if you can allow your cats outdoors responsibly, and it is
safe to do so, then they should be allowed to go outdoors.

-L.

Arthur L. Rubin
August 5th 03, 06:06 PM
"Some One" > wrote in message >...
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.

Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

Arthur L. Rubin
August 5th 03, 06:06 PM
"Some One" > wrote in message >...
> > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > themselves on trees and fences.
> >
> > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
>
> Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.

Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

Alex Longfield
August 5th 03, 06:23 PM
i have to say, since losing my baby boy, Sherlock, to a car a few weeks ago,
I am so tempted to keep my other cats indoors, one is an outside cat, one is
inside because she is pregnant, but all so unaware of the cars on the road
and i have since caught Oliver (his brother) rolling around in the middle of
the road.

I can understand the belief of improving the quantity now and i also don't
believe quality is majorly affected by not being outside so long as you
adapt their surrounding to be stimulating and happy.


"Arthur L. Rubin" > wrote in message
om...
> "Some One" > wrote in message
>...
> > > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > > themselves on trees and fences.
> > >
> > > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
> >
> > Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.
>
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

Alex Longfield
August 5th 03, 06:23 PM
i have to say, since losing my baby boy, Sherlock, to a car a few weeks ago,
I am so tempted to keep my other cats indoors, one is an outside cat, one is
inside because she is pregnant, but all so unaware of the cars on the road
and i have since caught Oliver (his brother) rolling around in the middle of
the road.

I can understand the belief of improving the quantity now and i also don't
believe quality is majorly affected by not being outside so long as you
adapt their surrounding to be stimulating and happy.


"Arthur L. Rubin" > wrote in message
om...
> "Some One" > wrote in message
>...
> > > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > > themselves on trees and fences.
> > >
> > > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
> >
> > Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.
>
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

August 6th 03, 12:36 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin > wrote:
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
time.

That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 6th 03, 12:36 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin > wrote:
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
time.

That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

paghat
August 6th 03, 01:11 AM
In article >, wrote:

> In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin
> wrote:
> > Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> > in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
>
> Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
> see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
> time.
>
> That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
> really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.
>
> Alice

I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their
recurring attempts to make a break for the outside when the door opens,
makes it fairly obvious they're dissatisfied.

My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is that
cats were the one wild animal that we domesticated without pens, cages, or
ropes. After a few thousand years of ranging around our homes and always
returning to us, now outside forces (OUR OWN overpopulation and
increasingly crowded conditions) impose decreasing liberty on an animal
that in no way requires these restrictions for themselves or for their
keepers to be happy with them. It is largely people who either dislike all
cats, or at least dislike cats other than their own, who have decided all
cats must be imprisoned or leashed, making even so little as lounging on
the public sidewalk in front of their own homes punishable under law.

But as I said, I'm old enough I remember when chickens and dogs ran loose
in the neighborhood, with few or no repurcussions. Being forced to
imprison our cats is just one more free choice whittled away from us. The
day will come when anyone who refuses to pay the Air Tax will be arrested
and placed in the suffocation tank, with our heirs still responsible for
the cremation costs & ash disposal tax. Nothing we take for granted, not
even the freedom to breathe, is off bounds for restriction & taxation.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
August 6th 03, 01:11 AM
In article >, wrote:

> In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin
> wrote:
> > Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> > in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
>
> Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
> see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
> time.
>
> That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
> really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.
>
> Alice

I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their
recurring attempts to make a break for the outside when the door opens,
makes it fairly obvious they're dissatisfied.

My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is that
cats were the one wild animal that we domesticated without pens, cages, or
ropes. After a few thousand years of ranging around our homes and always
returning to us, now outside forces (OUR OWN overpopulation and
increasingly crowded conditions) impose decreasing liberty on an animal
that in no way requires these restrictions for themselves or for their
keepers to be happy with them. It is largely people who either dislike all
cats, or at least dislike cats other than their own, who have decided all
cats must be imprisoned or leashed, making even so little as lounging on
the public sidewalk in front of their own homes punishable under law.

But as I said, I'm old enough I remember when chickens and dogs ran loose
in the neighborhood, with few or no repurcussions. Being forced to
imprison our cats is just one more free choice whittled away from us. The
day will come when anyone who refuses to pay the Air Tax will be arrested
and placed in the suffocation tank, with our heirs still responsible for
the cremation costs & ash disposal tax. Nothing we take for granted, not
even the freedom to breathe, is off bounds for restriction & taxation.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

August 6th 03, 01:49 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav paghat > wrote:
>
> I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
> restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
> later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their

True. My Isis kitty's only interest in the outdoors is, "Why is she going
into that scarey place?" But she has no interest in going out there.
Isis has never been outdoors except when moving or going to the vet.

Gambit, who I suspect was an indoor/outdoor cat before I got him is
constantly trying to get out. He did go through a period where he didn't
show interest, but he's back to, "ooooh,open door, I want to sneak
through."

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 6th 03, 01:49 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav paghat > wrote:
>
> I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
> restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
> later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their

True. My Isis kitty's only interest in the outdoors is, "Why is she going
into that scarey place?" But she has no interest in going out there.
Isis has never been outdoors except when moving or going to the vet.

Gambit, who I suspect was an indoor/outdoor cat before I got him is
constantly trying to get out. He did go through a period where he didn't
show interest, but he's back to, "ooooh,open door, I want to sneak
through."

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Cheryl
August 6th 03, 02:34 AM
In ,
paghat > composed with style:
>
> My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is
> that cats were the one wild animal that we domesticated without
> pens, cages, or ropes.

Domesticated cats are very far removed from their wild ancestors no
matter what any one thinks to the contrary.

I've had indoor/outdoor cats adapt very quickly and seemingly never
look back. I've had strays, now a feral, and two that could go
outdoors move with me to where they couldn't go out and adapted just
fine. Meow at the door at certain times of the year (they probably
sense Spring when the windows get opened for the first time in months)
but they have lots to do, plenty of stimuli and each other for
company.

Cheryl
August 6th 03, 02:34 AM
In ,
paghat > composed with style:
>
> My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is
> that cats were the one wild animal that we domesticated without
> pens, cages, or ropes.

Domesticated cats are very far removed from their wild ancestors no
matter what any one thinks to the contrary.

I've had indoor/outdoor cats adapt very quickly and seemingly never
look back. I've had strays, now a feral, and two that could go
outdoors move with me to where they couldn't go out and adapted just
fine. Meow at the door at certain times of the year (they probably
sense Spring when the windows get opened for the first time in months)
but they have lots to do, plenty of stimuli and each other for
company.

-L.
August 6th 03, 08:01 AM
(paghat) wrote in message >...
> In article >, wrote:
>
> > In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin
> > wrote:
> > > Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> > > in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
> >
> > Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
> > see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
> > time.
> >
> > That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
> > really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.
> >
> > Alice
>
> I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
> restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
> later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their
> recurring attempts to make a break for the outside when the door opens,
> makes it fairly obvious they're dissatisfied.
>
> My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is that
> cats were the one wild animal

In North America? No. Lynx are the only native feline, and those are
not domesticated. Common Felis domesticus is an import species - one
that was imported *as a pet*.

>that we domesticated without pens, cages, or
> ropes. After a few thousand years of ranging around our homes and always
> returning to us, now outside forces (OUR OWN overpopulation and
> increasingly crowded conditions) impose decreasing liberty on an animal
> that in no way requires these restrictions for themselves or for their
> keepers to be happy with them.

Just because you don't care if your cat sprays on the front door of
your neighbor's porch in 100 weather doesn't mean that it is right to
allow your cat to do so. Many cat owners would agree that it's not
fair to those HUMANS with whom they have to share the neighborhood, to
allow their domesticated animal to destroy what doesn't belong to
them. If you think that's ok, you have serious lessons to learn about
getting along with others, or you need to live on an isolated parcel
of land where you can allow your animals to run free. Living in a
community comes with compromise.


>It is largely people who either dislike all
> cats, or at least dislike cats other than their own, who have decided all
> cats must be imprisoned or leashed,

Wrong again. Include responsible cat owners in that category. I like
my neighbors cats, but I simply should not have to put up with the
destruction of *my* property, not to mention the medical
compromization and terrorization of my own companion animals *on my
property*. Sorry, but I did not work for 15 years and invest heavily
in order to retire and purchase my dream home, only to have to spend
much of that time cleaning up after someone else's pet. I have plenty
of companion animals of my own to clean up after, TYVM. Cleaning cat
spray off my front door is the last thing I want on my agenda at 7AM
every Saturday moring, and unless the owner of the cat wants to stop
it, I will, which I have every right to do, legally AND morally.

>making even so little as lounging on
> the public sidewalk in front of their own homes punishable under law.
>
> But as I said, I'm old enough I remember when chickens and dogs ran loose
> in the neighborhood, with few or no repurcussions. Being forced to
> imprison our cats is just one more free choice whittled away from us. The
> day will come when anyone who refuses to pay the Air Tax will be arrested
> and placed in the suffocation tank, with our heirs still responsible for
> the cremation costs & ash disposal tax. Nothing we take for granted, not
> even the freedom to breathe, is off bounds for restriction & taxation.

Here we go with the mellodrama again.

Take resposnsibility for your "pets" and you won't have laws being
enacted to make YOU do so.

-L.

-L.
August 6th 03, 08:01 AM
(paghat) wrote in message >...
> In article >, wrote:
>
> > In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin
> > wrote:
> > > Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> > > in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
> >
> > Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
> > see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
> > time.
> >
> > That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
> > really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.
> >
> > Alice
>
> I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
> restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
> later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their
> recurring attempts to make a break for the outside when the door opens,
> makes it fairly obvious they're dissatisfied.
>
> My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is that
> cats were the one wild animal

In North America? No. Lynx are the only native feline, and those are
not domesticated. Common Felis domesticus is an import species - one
that was imported *as a pet*.

>that we domesticated without pens, cages, or
> ropes. After a few thousand years of ranging around our homes and always
> returning to us, now outside forces (OUR OWN overpopulation and
> increasingly crowded conditions) impose decreasing liberty on an animal
> that in no way requires these restrictions for themselves or for their
> keepers to be happy with them.

Just because you don't care if your cat sprays on the front door of
your neighbor's porch in 100 weather doesn't mean that it is right to
allow your cat to do so. Many cat owners would agree that it's not
fair to those HUMANS with whom they have to share the neighborhood, to
allow their domesticated animal to destroy what doesn't belong to
them. If you think that's ok, you have serious lessons to learn about
getting along with others, or you need to live on an isolated parcel
of land where you can allow your animals to run free. Living in a
community comes with compromise.


>It is largely people who either dislike all
> cats, or at least dislike cats other than their own, who have decided all
> cats must be imprisoned or leashed,

Wrong again. Include responsible cat owners in that category. I like
my neighbors cats, but I simply should not have to put up with the
destruction of *my* property, not to mention the medical
compromization and terrorization of my own companion animals *on my
property*. Sorry, but I did not work for 15 years and invest heavily
in order to retire and purchase my dream home, only to have to spend
much of that time cleaning up after someone else's pet. I have plenty
of companion animals of my own to clean up after, TYVM. Cleaning cat
spray off my front door is the last thing I want on my agenda at 7AM
every Saturday moring, and unless the owner of the cat wants to stop
it, I will, which I have every right to do, legally AND morally.

>making even so little as lounging on
> the public sidewalk in front of their own homes punishable under law.
>
> But as I said, I'm old enough I remember when chickens and dogs ran loose
> in the neighborhood, with few or no repurcussions. Being forced to
> imprison our cats is just one more free choice whittled away from us. The
> day will come when anyone who refuses to pay the Air Tax will be arrested
> and placed in the suffocation tank, with our heirs still responsible for
> the cremation costs & ash disposal tax. Nothing we take for granted, not
> even the freedom to breathe, is off bounds for restriction & taxation.

Here we go with the mellodrama again.

Take resposnsibility for your "pets" and you won't have laws being
enacted to make YOU do so.

-L.

August 6th 03, 03:27 PM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav animaux > wrote:
>
> I've had cats all my life. Not once did they miss being outside. They lived
> long lives, happily indoors. It is human emotions, not cat requirements which
> cause this to a happen. My neighbor felt that way and another neighbor trapped

I'm sure they can live happy lives indoors. I'm just saying it would
improve quality to be able to go outdoors and explore. But it will shorten
quantity.. For me it's a what ist he best compromise (not everyone is
going to have teh same dangers or as much danger where they live
outside). I have one cat thta's perfectly fine indoors. I'm sure she'd
enjoy outdoors but she is fine indoors and hasn't show interest (I'm sure
she'd finally go out and decide she likes it if I left the door open and
went elsewhere, but I'd rather not introduce her to something she won't
miss if she never experiences).

I have another cat who has never been let outdoors (unsupervised, every
now and then I'll go out with him a few minutes then pull him back in) and
from when I got him he wanted out. I'm pretty sure he was an
outdoor/indoor cat before. He still misses it even 2 years later and me
only letting him otu in my apartment hallway (but not all that often).

All I'm saying is that I do think it would improve quality but that they
can live happy lives indoors also.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 6th 03, 03:27 PM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav animaux > wrote:
>
> I've had cats all my life. Not once did they miss being outside. They lived
> long lives, happily indoors. It is human emotions, not cat requirements which
> cause this to a happen. My neighbor felt that way and another neighbor trapped

I'm sure they can live happy lives indoors. I'm just saying it would
improve quality to be able to go outdoors and explore. But it will shorten
quantity.. For me it's a what ist he best compromise (not everyone is
going to have teh same dangers or as much danger where they live
outside). I have one cat thta's perfectly fine indoors. I'm sure she'd
enjoy outdoors but she is fine indoors and hasn't show interest (I'm sure
she'd finally go out and decide she likes it if I left the door open and
went elsewhere, but I'd rather not introduce her to something she won't
miss if she never experiences).

I have another cat who has never been let outdoors (unsupervised, every
now and then I'll go out with him a few minutes then pull him back in) and
from when I got him he wanted out. I'm pretty sure he was an
outdoor/indoor cat before. He still misses it even 2 years later and me
only letting him otu in my apartment hallway (but not all that often).

All I'm saying is that I do think it would improve quality but that they
can live happy lives indoors also.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 7th 03, 04:58 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Tom Jaszewski > wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:27:11 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
>
>>All I'm saying is that I do think it would improve quality but that they
>>can live happy lives indoors also.
> And it's just another unsubstantiated opinion....

And what is your substantiated opinion?

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 7th 03, 04:58 AM
In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Tom Jaszewski > wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:27:11 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
>
>>All I'm saying is that I do think it would improve quality but that they
>>can live happy lives indoors also.
> And it's just another unsubstantiated opinion....

And what is your substantiated opinion?

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

murphy
August 9th 03, 06:04 AM
In article >,
(Arthur L. Rubin) wrote:

> "Some One" > wrote in message
>...
> > > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > > themselves on trees and fences.
> > >
> > > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
> >
> > Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.
>
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

..amen to that!....having had two cats disappear without a trace, i decided
i would never go thru that heartache again....i have two indoor only cats
who never have fleas, never get into fights, will never be eaten by
coyotes or raccoons, and will never be run over by a car....they are
happy, healthy animals who follow patches of sun around the house and
sleep by open windows or doors when they want fresh air....i grow grass
for them to eat if they feel like salad, they hunt the occasional bug that
turns up inside and we all have much less worrysome lives as a result...

murphy, sophie and maggie...

murphy
August 9th 03, 06:04 AM
In article >,
(Arthur L. Rubin) wrote:

> "Some One" > wrote in message
>...
> > > >Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
> > > > themselves on trees and fences.
> > >
> > > Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.
> >
> > Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.
>
> Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
> in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.

..amen to that!....having had two cats disappear without a trace, i decided
i would never go thru that heartache again....i have two indoor only cats
who never have fleas, never get into fights, will never be eaten by
coyotes or raccoons, and will never be run over by a car....they are
happy, healthy animals who follow patches of sun around the house and
sleep by open windows or doors when they want fresh air....i grow grass
for them to eat if they feel like salad, they hunt the occasional bug that
turns up inside and we all have much less worrysome lives as a result...

murphy, sophie and maggie...

Sharon
August 9th 03, 06:15 AM
> .amen to that!....having had two cats disappear without a trace, i decided
> i would never go thru that heartache again....i have two indoor only cats
> who never have fleas, never get into fights, will never be eaten by
> coyotes or raccoons, and will never be run over by a car....they are
> happy, healthy animals

Oh my yes! On average they live much, much longer than outdoor cats with a
pretty good chance of having real quality of life in the later years -
pretty darn good life actually! Our kitty is scared to even venture near the
door and in her 16th year (hold on, doing math...) 15th.... she has awesome
health and spends all of her time in my oldest son's room looking out the
window, facing off between the glass with the gerbil and playing with her
toys. Once cats hit that "geriatric" or "senior" age at 7-8 years old the
difference in the outdoor vs. indor cats in our practice is quite obvious.

But in any case - ain't cats grand? We have a Pity Kitty hanging around our
desks these days who was brought in by a good samaritan with about 3/4 of
her right side burned, we think by a car engine. She's the best. The good
ones always find you!

-Sharon

Sharon
August 9th 03, 06:15 AM
> .amen to that!....having had two cats disappear without a trace, i decided
> i would never go thru that heartache again....i have two indoor only cats
> who never have fleas, never get into fights, will never be eaten by
> coyotes or raccoons, and will never be run over by a car....they are
> happy, healthy animals

Oh my yes! On average they live much, much longer than outdoor cats with a
pretty good chance of having real quality of life in the later years -
pretty darn good life actually! Our kitty is scared to even venture near the
door and in her 16th year (hold on, doing math...) 15th.... she has awesome
health and spends all of her time in my oldest son's room looking out the
window, facing off between the glass with the gerbil and playing with her
toys. Once cats hit that "geriatric" or "senior" age at 7-8 years old the
difference in the outdoor vs. indor cats in our practice is quite obvious.

But in any case - ain't cats grand? We have a Pity Kitty hanging around our
desks these days who was brought in by a good samaritan with about 3/4 of
her right side burned, we think by a car engine. She's the best. The good
ones always find you!

-Sharon

murphy
August 9th 03, 06:24 AM
In article >, "Sharon"
> wrote:

Once cats hit that "geriatric" or "senior" age at 7-8 years old the
> difference in the outdoor vs. indor cats in our practice is quite obvious.


.....vet practice i assume??...i was married to one for about 100
years....so know only too well the price outdoor cats pay for their
freedom...

>
> But in any case - ain't cats grand?

.......yes i am a real cat lover....i have two - both rescued from
shelters....a himalayan brought home as an adult and a calico adopted as a
kitten....they are great fun and good company....


We have a Pity Kitty hanging around our
> desks these days who was brought in by a good samaritan with about 3/4 of
> her right side burned, we think by a car engine. She's the best. The good
> ones always find you!

....thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among themselves
of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!

murphy

murphy
August 9th 03, 06:24 AM
In article >, "Sharon"
> wrote:

Once cats hit that "geriatric" or "senior" age at 7-8 years old the
> difference in the outdoor vs. indor cats in our practice is quite obvious.


.....vet practice i assume??...i was married to one for about 100
years....so know only too well the price outdoor cats pay for their
freedom...

>
> But in any case - ain't cats grand?

.......yes i am a real cat lover....i have two - both rescued from
shelters....a himalayan brought home as an adult and a calico adopted as a
kitten....they are great fun and good company....


We have a Pity Kitty hanging around our
> desks these days who was brought in by a good samaritan with about 3/4 of
> her right side burned, we think by a car engine. She's the best. The good
> ones always find you!

....thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among themselves
of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!

murphy

murphy
August 9th 03, 04:18 PM
In article >, "Sharon"
> wrote:

> > ...thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among themselves
> > of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!
>
> They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them in! Must
> be written on our mailboxes.
>
> -Sharon


.......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!

murphy

murphy
August 9th 03, 04:18 PM
In article >, "Sharon"
> wrote:

> > ...thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among themselves
> > of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!
>
> They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them in! Must
> be written on our mailboxes.
>
> -Sharon


.......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!

murphy

Larry Smith
August 9th 03, 04:39 PM
"murphy" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Sharon"
> > wrote:
>
> > > ...thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among
themselves
> > > of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!
> >
> > They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them in!
Must
> > be written on our mailboxes.
> >
> > -Sharon
>
>
> ......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!
>
> murphy

Go away, moron.

Larry Smith
August 9th 03, 04:39 PM
"murphy" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Sharon"
> > wrote:
>
> > > ...thats true...i think they have a list they circulate among
themselves
> > > of the 'will show no resistance' humans on the planet....!!
> >
> > They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them in!
Must
> > be written on our mailboxes.
> >
> > -Sharon
>
>
> ......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!
>
> murphy

Go away, moron.

murphy
August 10th 03, 02:02 AM
In article >, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

> "Sharon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them
> in!
> > Must
> > > > be written on our mailboxes.
> > > >
> > > > -Sharon
> > >
> > >
> > > ......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!
> >
> > Yeah - their spelling is a bit off, but the 'S' is definitely suspicous -
> > especially if there dirty pay prints next to it.
> >
> > -Sharon
> >
> >
>
> Take this illiterate mess out of ML.

....whooopse!....must not be a cat person....<G>...

murphy

murphy
August 10th 03, 02:02 AM
In article >, "Larry Smith"
> wrote:

> "Sharon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > They also tend to have a "sucker list" of folks that will take them
> in!
> > Must
> > > > be written on our mailboxes.
> > > >
> > > > -Sharon
> > >
> > >
> > > ......oh!....so thats what the "s" is..LOL!!
> >
> > Yeah - their spelling is a bit off, but the 'S' is definitely suspicous -
> > especially if there dirty pay prints next to it.
> >
> > -Sharon
> >
> >
>
> Take this illiterate mess out of ML.

....whooopse!....must not be a cat person....<G>...

murphy

Mrs. Fricker
August 10th 03, 01:42 PM
Dear Cats:

When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
with one another so there are still three cats in the way.

The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
slightest.

The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
because I fall faster than you can run.

I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.

My phone cord is not black licorice.

For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
feline attendance is not mandatory.

The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.

The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
and like to complain about our pets.

1. The cats live here. You don't.

2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.

3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.

4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.

5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
the kittens make wonderful gifts.

Mrs. Fricker
August 10th 03, 01:42 PM
Dear Cats:

When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
with one another so there are still three cats in the way.

The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
slightest.

The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
because I fall faster than you can run.

I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.

My phone cord is not black licorice.

For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
feline attendance is not mandatory.

The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.

The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
and like to complain about our pets.

1. The cats live here. You don't.

2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.

3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.

4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.

5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
the kittens make wonderful gifts.

fred
August 10th 03, 06:01 PM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article et, Mrs.
> Fricker at wrote on 8/10/03 7:42 AM:
>
> > Dear Cats:
> >
> > When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
> > with one another so there are still three cats in the way.
> >
> > The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
> > dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
> > the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
> > your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
> > slightest.
> >
> > The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
> > me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
> > because I fall faster than you can run.
> >
> > I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
> > this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
> > comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
> > ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
> > stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
> > tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
> > maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.
> >
> > My phone cord is not black licorice.
> >
> > For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
> > some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
> > necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
> > the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
> > door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
> > feline attendance is not mandatory.
> >
> > The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
> > cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.
> >
> > The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
> > personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
> > when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
> > contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
> > there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
> > and like to complain about our pets.
> >
> > 1. The cats live here. You don't.
> >
> > 2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.
> >
> > 3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.
> >
> > 4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
> > walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
> >
> > 5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
> > the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
> > your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
> > don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
> > don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
> > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> This is great!!!
>
> Karen
>

You poor, pathetic misanthropes! Get a life!!
Fred

fred
August 10th 03, 06:01 PM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
> in article et, Mrs.
> Fricker at wrote on 8/10/03 7:42 AM:
>
> > Dear Cats:
> >
> > When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
> > with one another so there are still three cats in the way.
> >
> > The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
> > dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
> > the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
> > your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
> > slightest.
> >
> > The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
> > me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
> > because I fall faster than you can run.
> >
> > I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
> > this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
> > comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
> > ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
> > stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
> > tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
> > maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.
> >
> > My phone cord is not black licorice.
> >
> > For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
> > some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
> > necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
> > the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
> > door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
> > feline attendance is not mandatory.
> >
> > The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
> > cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.
> >
> > The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
> > personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
> > when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
> > contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
> > there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
> > and like to complain about our pets.
> >
> > 1. The cats live here. You don't.
> >
> > 2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.
> >
> > 3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.
> >
> > 4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
> > walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
> >
> > 5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
> > the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
> > your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
> > don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
> > don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
> > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> This is great!!!
>
> Karen
>

You poor, pathetic misanthropes! Get a life!!
Fred

murphy
August 10th 03, 07:24 PM
In article et>, "Mrs.
Fricker" > wrote:

> Dear Cats:

..thanks for this....delightful!!

murphy

murphy
August 10th 03, 07:24 PM
In article et>, "Mrs.
Fricker" > wrote:

> Dear Cats:

..thanks for this....delightful!!

murphy

Jari Vuoksenranta
August 15th 03, 08:16 PM
10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:

> the kittens make wonderful gifts.

*Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

--
Jari Vuoksenranta

"170 226 2245 3042 400"

Jari Vuoksenranta
August 15th 03, 08:16 PM
10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:

> the kittens make wonderful gifts.

*Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

--
Jari Vuoksenranta

"170 226 2245 3042 400"

paghat
August 15th 03, 09:19 PM
In article >, Jari Vuoksenranta
> wrote:

> 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>
> > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

You're advocating killing them first?

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
August 15th 03, 09:19 PM
In article >, Jari Vuoksenranta
> wrote:

> 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>
> > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

You're advocating killing them first?

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Roy Hauer
August 15th 03, 11:39 PM
They do as long as your the one giving the gift. Not a god present to
be on the receiving end though.


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:16:47 GMT, Jari Vuoksenranta >
wrote:

>x<>-10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>x<>-
>x<>-> the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>x<>-
>x<>-*Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

--
Visit my website:
http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Contents: foundry and general metal working and lots of related projects.
Regards
Roy aka Chipmaker // Foxeye
Opinions are strictly those of my wife....I have had no input whatsoever.
Remove capital A from chipmAkr for correct email address

Roy Hauer
August 15th 03, 11:39 PM
They do as long as your the one giving the gift. Not a god present to
be on the receiving end though.


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:16:47 GMT, Jari Vuoksenranta >
wrote:

>x<>-10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>x<>-
>x<>-> the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>x<>-
>x<>-*Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.

--
Visit my website:
http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Contents: foundry and general metal working and lots of related projects.
Regards
Roy aka Chipmaker // Foxeye
Opinions are strictly those of my wife....I have had no input whatsoever.
Remove capital A from chipmAkr for correct email address

Salty Thumb
August 15th 03, 11:51 PM
Jari Vuoksenranta > wrote in news:[email protected]
195.197.54.116:

> 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>
>> the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.
>

Dying plants make excellent gifts. "May our love lasts only as long as the
bloom on this rose"

oops meant to post that to soc.culture.can't.get.a.date

Salty Thumb
August 15th 03, 11:51 PM
Jari Vuoksenranta > wrote in news:[email protected]
195.197.54.116:

> 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
>
>> the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>
> *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.
>

Dying plants make excellent gifts. "May our love lasts only as long as the
bloom on this rose"

oops meant to post that to soc.culture.can't.get.a.date

Jan
August 16th 03, 02:46 AM
Karen,
Well said. I agree 100%.
Jan

Karen Chuplis wrote:

>in article et, Mrs.
>Fricker at wrote on 8/10/03 7:42 AM:
>
>
>
>>Dear Cats:
>>
>>When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
>>with one another so there are still three cats in the way.
>>
>>The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
>>dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
>>the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
>>your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
>>slightest.
>>
>>The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
>>me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
>>because I fall faster than you can run.
>>
>>I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
>>this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
>>comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
>>ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
>>stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
>>tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
>>maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.
>>
>>My phone cord is not black licorice.
>>
>>For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
>>some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
>>necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
>>the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
>>door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
>>feline attendance is not mandatory.
>>
>>The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
>>cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.
>>
>>The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
>>personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
>>when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
>>contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
>>there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
>>and like to complain about our pets.
>>
>>1. The cats live here. You don't.
>>
>>2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.
>>
>>3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.
>>
>>4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
>>walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
>>
>>5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
>>the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
>>your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
>>don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
>>don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
>>the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>>
>>
>
>This is great!!!
>
>Karen
>
>
>

Jan
August 16th 03, 02:46 AM
Karen,
Well said. I agree 100%.
Jan

Karen Chuplis wrote:

>in article et, Mrs.
>Fricker at wrote on 8/10/03 7:42 AM:
>
>
>
>>Dear Cats:
>>
>>When I say to move, it means go someplace else, not switch positions
>>with one another so there are still three cats in the way.
>>
>>The dishes with the paw print are yours and contain your food. The other
>>dishes are mine and contain my food. Please note, placing a paw print in
>>the middle of my plate and food does not stake a claim for it becoming
>>your food and dish, nor do I find that aesthetically pleasing in the
>>slightest.
>>
>>The hallway was not designed by Nascar and is not a racetrack. Beating
>>me to the end of the hall is not the object. Tripping me doesn't help,
>>because I fall faster than you can run.
>>
>>I cannot buy anything bigger than a king size bed. I am very sorry about
>>this. Do not think I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your
>>comfort. Look at videos of cats sleeping; they can actually curl up in a
>>ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to one another
>>stretched out to the fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking
>>tails straight out and having tongues hanging out the other end to
>>maximize space used is nothing but kitty sarcasm.
>>
>>My phone cord is not black licorice.
>>
>>For the last time, there is not a secret exit from the bathroom. If by
>>some miracle I beat you there and manage to get the door shut, it is not
>>necessary to claw, whine, try to turn the knob, or get your paw under
>>the edge and try to pull the door open. I must exit through the same
>>door I entered. In addition, I have been using bathrooms for years;
>>feline attendance is not mandatory.
>>
>>The proper order is kiss me, then go smell the other cat's butt. I
>>cannot stress this enough. It would be such a simple change for you.
>>
>>The bathroom sink is for washing hands and was not meant to be your
>>personal water fountain. I'm tired of being summoned to the bathroom
>>when you are ready for a drink. The bowl of water in the kitchen is not
>>contaminated and has no floaters! So from now on you will drink from
>>there... I put fresh water in daily! Rules for non pet owners who visit
>>and like to complain about our pets.
>>
>>1. The cats live here. You don't.
>>
>>2. If you don't want cat hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.
>>
>>3. I like my cats a lot better than I like most people.
>>
>>4. To you, he's a cat. To me, he's an adopted son who is short, hairy,
>>walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly.
>>
>>5. **cats are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all
>>the time, are easier to train, sometimes come when called, never drive
>>your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink,
>>don't worry about buying the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes,
>>don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant,
>>the kittens make wonderful gifts.
>>
>>
>
>This is great!!!
>
>Karen
>
>
>

fred
August 16th 03, 03:16 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Jari Vuoksenranta
> > wrote:
>
> > 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
> >
> > > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
> >
> > *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.
>
> You're advocating killing them first?
>
That is what one normally does with vermin :-}

fred
August 16th 03, 03:16 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Jari Vuoksenranta
> > wrote:
>
> > 10 elo 2003 Mrs. Fricker kirjoitti:
> >
> > > the kittens make wonderful gifts.
> >
> > *Bzzzzt* Anything living is NOT a good gift.
>
> You're advocating killing them first?
>
That is what one normally does with vermin :-}

Shell91
August 28th 03, 04:55 AM
Hi
Had to put in my 2 cents worth. Living in an area where there are several
feral cats the thing that concerns me most is rabies. Animals do not always
show the symptoms of rabies (as my family learned in Big Lake Texas. Nearly
everyone in town played with and fed a stray cat which only began to look
sick several days afterward. Nearly everyone in town had to get rabies
shots at some $600 each)

If you truly care about your pets you make sure they have all thier shots
and proper meds (a dog with heartworm is truly a sad thing to see) You will
also make sure they are no threat to anyone. I have come close to killing a
dog only once and then it was a pit bull threatening a small child. The dog
was behind a very flimsy fence and the child walking home from school. The
dog was able to get part way out of the fence, if it had rushed the child I
would have hit it with my car. Needless to say if you have an animal of
that type you had better have it under control at all times. I have also
stood watch for kids when another neighbor's rottweiller gets out
(fortunately it's a very docile animal that doesn't get out of the driveway
when it gets out)

My dog is always under control when I take him outside. Most of my
neighbors don't do this.

We also have possums, squirrels (2 kinds), lots of birds, snakes, geckos,
anoles, and some feral dogs that live in the large city cared for easement
for the power company. I can truly say the only animal I ever wanted to get
rid of were the rats in the attic and a mouse in the house.

Shell

Shell91
August 28th 03, 04:55 AM
Hi
Had to put in my 2 cents worth. Living in an area where there are several
feral cats the thing that concerns me most is rabies. Animals do not always
show the symptoms of rabies (as my family learned in Big Lake Texas. Nearly
everyone in town played with and fed a stray cat which only began to look
sick several days afterward. Nearly everyone in town had to get rabies
shots at some $600 each)

If you truly care about your pets you make sure they have all thier shots
and proper meds (a dog with heartworm is truly a sad thing to see) You will
also make sure they are no threat to anyone. I have come close to killing a
dog only once and then it was a pit bull threatening a small child. The dog
was behind a very flimsy fence and the child walking home from school. The
dog was able to get part way out of the fence, if it had rushed the child I
would have hit it with my car. Needless to say if you have an animal of
that type you had better have it under control at all times. I have also
stood watch for kids when another neighbor's rottweiller gets out
(fortunately it's a very docile animal that doesn't get out of the driveway
when it gets out)

My dog is always under control when I take him outside. Most of my
neighbors don't do this.

We also have possums, squirrels (2 kinds), lots of birds, snakes, geckos,
anoles, and some feral dogs that live in the large city cared for easement
for the power company. I can truly say the only animal I ever wanted to get
rid of were the rats in the attic and a mouse in the house.

Shell