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Cheryl
July 31st 03, 11:57 PM
Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
source?

Cheryl
August 1st 03, 12:51 AM
Karen Chuplis wrote:
> in article , Cheryl at
> wrote on 7/31/03 5:57 PM:
>
>> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the
cat
>> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the
protein
>> source?
>>
> I saw a poster up for it at my vets just a few minutes ago. High
> protien, low carbs for weight loss. I imagine it would be good for
> other things too.
>
> Karen

I did a search on the net and can't find anything yet. I'm looking for
something without grain and it seems an adkin's type diet might be
just that. They don't like any of the Hill's canned foods even though
the dry foods all went over very well. It might be tough switching
them. I'm looking for new options.

Cheryl
August 1st 03, 12:51 AM
Karen Chuplis wrote:
> in article , Cheryl at
> wrote on 7/31/03 5:57 PM:
>
>> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the
cat
>> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the
protein
>> source?
>>
> I saw a poster up for it at my vets just a few minutes ago. High
> protien, low carbs for weight loss. I imagine it would be good for
> other things too.
>
> Karen

I did a search on the net and can't find anything yet. I'm looking for
something without grain and it seems an adkin's type diet might be
just that. They don't like any of the Hill's canned foods even though
the dry foods all went over very well. It might be tough switching
them. I'm looking for new options.

Larry Silkaitis
August 1st 03, 10:28 PM
M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some time
and now Purina has competition.

--
Larry Silkaitis (Owned by six cats: two grey, one black, white, black and
white, and grey and white)
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> source?
>
>
>
>

Larry Silkaitis
August 1st 03, 10:28 PM
M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some time
and now Purina has competition.

--
Larry Silkaitis (Owned by six cats: two grey, one black, white, black and
white, and grey and white)
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> source?
>
>
>
>

Phil P.
August 2nd 03, 01:48 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> source?

Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)


Ingredients (Can)
Pork by-products, pork liver, water, corn starch, powdered cellulose, soy
protein isolate, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric
acid), guar gum, locust bean gum, carrageenan, rice flour, taurine,
DL-methionine, L-carnitine, minerals (calcium carbonate, calcium sulfate,
dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper
sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), beta-carotene,
vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement,
ascorbic acid (a source of vitamin C), thiamine mononitrate, niacin, calcium
pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin,
vitamin B12 supplement).


Canned:
Protein Digestibility...86.0%
Fat Digestibility ...82.0%
Carbohydrate Digestibility...72.0%
157 kcal/ 156 g can - 481 kcal/per cup - dry
Target Urine pH Normal Acid (6.2 - 6.4)


Dry:
Chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed
tocopherols and citric acid), pork protein isolate, corn meal, powdered
cellulose, wheat gluten, dried egg product, chicken liver flavor, L-lysine,
taurine, rice flour, L-carnitine, preserved with mixed tocopherols and
citric acid, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, salt, ferrous
sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium
selenite), rosemary extract, beta carotene, vitamins (choline chloride,
vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement,
L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine
mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride,
folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).

481 kcal/per cup
Protein Digestibility....91.0%
Fat Digestibility...92.0%
Carbohydrate Digestibility...87.0%

Phil P.
August 2nd 03, 01:48 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> source?

Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)


Ingredients (Can)
Pork by-products, pork liver, water, corn starch, powdered cellulose, soy
protein isolate, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric
acid), guar gum, locust bean gum, carrageenan, rice flour, taurine,
DL-methionine, L-carnitine, minerals (calcium carbonate, calcium sulfate,
dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper
sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), beta-carotene,
vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement,
ascorbic acid (a source of vitamin C), thiamine mononitrate, niacin, calcium
pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin,
vitamin B12 supplement).


Canned:
Protein Digestibility...86.0%
Fat Digestibility ...82.0%
Carbohydrate Digestibility...72.0%
157 kcal/ 156 g can - 481 kcal/per cup - dry
Target Urine pH Normal Acid (6.2 - 6.4)


Dry:
Chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed
tocopherols and citric acid), pork protein isolate, corn meal, powdered
cellulose, wheat gluten, dried egg product, chicken liver flavor, L-lysine,
taurine, rice flour, L-carnitine, preserved with mixed tocopherols and
citric acid, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, salt, ferrous
sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium
selenite), rosemary extract, beta carotene, vitamins (choline chloride,
vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement,
L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine
mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride,
folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).

481 kcal/per cup
Protein Digestibility....91.0%
Fat Digestibility...92.0%
Carbohydrate Digestibility...87.0%

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 04:32 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)
>
>
[...]

Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
interesting. I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat. I suppose it is
impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
enough protein content? <sigh>

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 04:32 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)
>
>
[...]

Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
interesting. I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat. I suppose it is
impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
enough protein content? <sigh>

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 04:50 AM
Larry Silkaitis wrote:
> M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some
> time and now Purina has competition.
>
Sadly it doesn't look like what I'm looking for. I was hopeful.

>> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the
cat
>> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the
protein
>> source?

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 04:50 AM
Larry Silkaitis wrote:
> M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some
> time and now Purina has competition.
>
Sadly it doesn't look like what I'm looking for. I was hopeful.

>> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the
cat
>> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the
protein
>> source?

Liz
August 2nd 03, 04:51 AM
LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
updated his knowledge.

Liz
August 2nd 03, 04:51 AM
LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
updated his knowledge.

PawsForThought
August 2nd 03, 02:51 PM
>From: "Cheryl"

>Liz wrote:
>> LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve
>already
>> updated his knowledge.
>
>I asked because remember when Steve was saying that he had a cat on
>the Adkin's diet? It seemed that Hill's was maybe beta testing
>something.

This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

PawsForThought
August 2nd 03, 02:51 PM
>From: "Cheryl"

>Liz wrote:
>> LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve
>already
>> updated his knowledge.
>
>I asked because remember when Steve was saying that he had a cat on
>the Adkin's diet? It seemed that Hill's was maybe beta testing
>something.

This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Magic Mood Jeep©
August 2nd 03, 03:23 PM
just FHY guys, Hill's now has this listed on their site:
http://tinyurl.com/itwo

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Cheryl"
>
> >Liz wrote:
> >> LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve
> >already
> >> updated his knowledge.
> >
> >I asked because remember when Steve was saying that he had a cat on
> >the Adkin's diet? It seemed that Hill's was maybe beta testing
> >something.
>
> This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal,
corn
> meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
> liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right
track
> making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their
ingredients
> to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.
>
> Lauren
> ________
> See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
> Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
> http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
> Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Magic Mood Jeep©
August 2nd 03, 03:23 PM
just FHY guys, Hill's now has this listed on their site:
http://tinyurl.com/itwo

--
The ONE and ONLY
lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde
in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)©
http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/
http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep


"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Cheryl"
>
> >Liz wrote:
> >> LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve
> >already
> >> updated his knowledge.
> >
> >I asked because remember when Steve was saying that he had a cat on
> >the Adkin's diet? It seemed that Hill's was maybe beta testing
> >something.
>
> This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal,
corn
> meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
> liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right
track
> making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their
ingredients
> to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.
>
> Lauren
> ________
> See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
> Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
> http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
> Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Liz
August 2nd 03, 06:33 PM
Cheryl, yep, I remember. I also remember he said it didn't work. In a
biochemical perspective, if the carbohydrate intake is not much lower
than the demand of the brain for glucose, it won't work. If this food
had only undigestible starch (like cellulose), it would work but I bet
there would be a lot of constipation. But once you add corn, forget it
since I presume the carb level is more than just 2 or 3%.

Lauren, it couldn't look good coming from them. LOL But... it's a
start toward something better. This is why criticizing can be *very
constructive.*

Liz
August 2nd 03, 06:33 PM
Cheryl, yep, I remember. I also remember he said it didn't work. In a
biochemical perspective, if the carbohydrate intake is not much lower
than the demand of the brain for glucose, it won't work. If this food
had only undigestible starch (like cellulose), it would work but I bet
there would be a lot of constipation. But once you add corn, forget it
since I presume the carb level is more than just 2 or 3%.

Lauren, it couldn't look good coming from them. LOL But... it's a
start toward something better. This is why criticizing can be *very
constructive.*

PawsForThought
August 2nd 03, 07:34 PM
>From: (Liz)

>Lauren, it couldn't look good coming from them. LOL But... it's a
>start toward something better. This is why criticizing can be *very
>constructive.*

Very true!

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

PawsForThought
August 2nd 03, 07:34 PM
>From: (Liz)

>Lauren, it couldn't look good coming from them. LOL But... it's a
>start toward something better. This is why criticizing can be *very
>constructive.*

Very true!

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 07:34 PM
KellyH wrote:
>
> Cheryl, you might want to try California Natural

I've tried giving him the canned but he won't eat it. The dry I'm
hesitant about because some cats with IBD don't tolarate rice, either,
and I'm trying to eliminate dry food. His IBD is in the small
intestine so anything with fiber was a nightmare, so he needs very low
fiber in addition to no grain (according to his vet).

> Have you tried
> Hill's z/d? That also might help, it's supposed to be the
> non-allergen food.

Tried that, it made things worse. He liked it ok and I got him
switched over to just the zd and then he was a mess. It has corn
gluten meal in the top ingredients. I think the only difference with
it is that the protein is hydrolized (or something like that) so the
body doesn't have to do it? I don't know but it didn't work. Tried
IVD green peas and rabbit and had the same problem with fiber. I
don't think there is much out there that I haven't tried for him;
either he won't eat it or he has a flare-up. He also doesn't seem to
like my cooking as I've tried making him homecooked food. Eats it for
a day or so.

Thanks for the suggestions!

--
Cheryl

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 07:34 PM
KellyH wrote:
>
> Cheryl, you might want to try California Natural

I've tried giving him the canned but he won't eat it. The dry I'm
hesitant about because some cats with IBD don't tolarate rice, either,
and I'm trying to eliminate dry food. His IBD is in the small
intestine so anything with fiber was a nightmare, so he needs very low
fiber in addition to no grain (according to his vet).

> Have you tried
> Hill's z/d? That also might help, it's supposed to be the
> non-allergen food.

Tried that, it made things worse. He liked it ok and I got him
switched over to just the zd and then he was a mess. It has corn
gluten meal in the top ingredients. I think the only difference with
it is that the protein is hydrolized (or something like that) so the
body doesn't have to do it? I don't know but it didn't work. Tried
IVD green peas and rabbit and had the same problem with fiber. I
don't think there is much out there that I haven't tried for him;
either he won't eat it or he has a flare-up. He also doesn't seem to
like my cooking as I've tried making him homecooked food. Eats it for
a day or so.

Thanks for the suggestions!

--
Cheryl

GAUBSTER2
August 4th 03, 12:30 AM
>From: (Liz)
>Date: 8/1/03 8:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
>updated his knowledge.
>

What exactly are you referring to, Liz?

GAUBSTER2
August 4th 03, 12:30 AM
>From: (Liz)
>Date: 8/1/03 8:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
>updated his knowledge.
>

What exactly are you referring to, Liz?

GAUBSTER2
August 4th 03, 12:31 AM
>This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
>meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
>liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
>making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
>to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.
>
>Lauren

Are you more concerned whether or not the diet works or what the ingredients
are?

GAUBSTER2
August 4th 03, 12:31 AM
>This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
>meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
>liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
>making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
>to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.
>
>Lauren

Are you more concerned whether or not the diet works or what the ingredients
are?

Phil P.
August 4th 03, 03:19 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
> interesting.

Pork by-products are a highly digestible protein source >86%. Highly
digestible proteins are less antigenic because very little protein is
absorbed intact into the mucosa. Also, less protein will get into the colon
so less colonic ammonia will be generated. Pork by-products are also more
nutritious than skeletal meat and is also probably a novel protein source
for your cat - which reduces the likelihood of Shadow being allergic or
developing a reaction to it.

Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, unfortunately,
I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high for an IBD diet. The
high protein content increases the chances of protein antigenicity. Also,
any
protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it isn't
metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's previous liver
problems -- just a thought.

Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has moderate
protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), and a single
carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent carbohydrate source
because its more completely assimilated than other carbs. There aren't many
reports of allergies to rice in cats!


I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains

You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all
protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain either
too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

> and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
> have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
> even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
> requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
> Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
> than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat.

The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 - 45%
protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can result in diarrhea.
OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed smaller portions of food
at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch and secretions. Although fat is
one of the most digestible components of the diet, fat malassimila*tion is
not that uncommon. So the amount of fat in the diet would be depend on how
much the cat can tolerate.

I suppose it is
> impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
> enough protein content?

<sigh>

Forget the grain-o-phobic's chanting and give d/d a shot! I've had excellent
results. The next step would be home cooked diet.

Good luck.

Phil

Phil P.
August 4th 03, 03:19 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
> interesting.

Pork by-products are a highly digestible protein source >86%. Highly
digestible proteins are less antigenic because very little protein is
absorbed intact into the mucosa. Also, less protein will get into the colon
so less colonic ammonia will be generated. Pork by-products are also more
nutritious than skeletal meat and is also probably a novel protein source
for your cat - which reduces the likelihood of Shadow being allergic or
developing a reaction to it.

Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, unfortunately,
I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high for an IBD diet. The
high protein content increases the chances of protein antigenicity. Also,
any
protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it isn't
metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's previous liver
problems -- just a thought.

Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has moderate
protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), and a single
carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent carbohydrate source
because its more completely assimilated than other carbs. There aren't many
reports of allergies to rice in cats!


I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains

You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all
protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain either
too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

> and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
> have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
> even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
> requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
> Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
> than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat.

The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 - 45%
protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can result in diarrhea.
OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed smaller portions of food
at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch and secretions. Although fat is
one of the most digestible components of the diet, fat malassimila*tion is
not that uncommon. So the amount of fat in the diet would be depend on how
much the cat can tolerate.

I suppose it is
> impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
> enough protein content?

<sigh>

Forget the grain-o-phobic's chanting and give d/d a shot! I've had excellent
results. The next step would be home cooked diet.

Good luck.

Phil

Cheryl
August 4th 03, 11:55 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
>
<snip pork info - thanks!>
>
> Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes,
> unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high
> for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of
> protein antigenicity. Also, any
> protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
> ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it
> isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's
> previous liver problems -- just a thought.

I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though. :(

> Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has
> moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source
(lamb),
> and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent
> carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than
> other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats!

This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his
former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks
pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot. Though if it is
the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he
likely won't touch it.

>> I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
>> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
>
> You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of
all
> protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain
> either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but
just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in
here again!). When we switched vets and she told me to take him off
SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything,
I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he
visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some
normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of
dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to
so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and
Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much
lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach).
>
> The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and
30
> - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can
result
> in diarrhea.

I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He
isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the
lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I
*think* any way.

>OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed
> smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch
> and secretions.

I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI
stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it
better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though..
I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the
little bit of dry.
>
> The next step would be home cooked diet.

I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked
chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and
vitamins, he doesn't like it. I only do this to get past some of the
worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I
talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there
published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones.

Cheryl
August 4th 03, 11:55 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
>
<snip pork info - thanks!>
>
> Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes,
> unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high
> for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of
> protein antigenicity. Also, any
> protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
> ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it
> isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's
> previous liver problems -- just a thought.

I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though. :(

> Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has
> moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source
(lamb),
> and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent
> carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than
> other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats!

This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his
former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks
pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot. Though if it is
the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he
likely won't touch it.

>> I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
>> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
>
> You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of
all
> protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain
> either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but
just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in
here again!). When we switched vets and she told me to take him off
SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything,
I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he
visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some
normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of
dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to
so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and
Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much
lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach).
>
> The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and
30
> - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can
result
> in diarrhea.

I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He
isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the
lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I
*think* any way.

>OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed
> smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch
> and secretions.

I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI
stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it
better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though..
I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the
little bit of dry.
>
> The next step would be home cooked diet.

I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked
chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and
vitamins, he doesn't like it. I only do this to get past some of the
worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I
talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there
published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones.

Jon C
August 5th 03, 11:26 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> > source?
>
> Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)


I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
carb levels that are far lower..

Jon

Jon C
August 5th 03, 11:26 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> > source?
>
> Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)


I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
carb levels that are far lower..

Jon

GAUBSTER2
August 6th 03, 12:39 AM
>I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
>carb levels that are far lower..
>

Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your comparisons? OR
an "as fed" basis?

GAUBSTER2
August 6th 03, 12:39 AM
>I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
>carb levels that are far lower..
>

Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your comparisons? OR
an "as fed" basis?

Cheryl
August 6th 03, 12:48 AM
GAUBSTER2 wrote:
>> I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among
>> others, have carb levels that are far lower..
>>
>
> Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your
> comparisons? OR an "as fed" basis?

I think he read "dry" as DM.
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%

I don't know which it was that Phil replied with - I lost interest in
the m/d and gained interest in the d/d. I have to take a little feral
to the vet so I'll see if she has it. Doubtful, though, she's the one
who said I should take Shadow off of Hills. I printed out the
analysis and ingredients for her just in case, though. If he will eat
it, the d/d looks pretty good.

Cheryl
August 6th 03, 12:48 AM
GAUBSTER2 wrote:
>> I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among
>> others, have carb levels that are far lower..
>>
>
> Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your
> comparisons? OR an "as fed" basis?

I think he read "dry" as DM.
> Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%

I don't know which it was that Phil replied with - I lost interest in
the m/d and gained interest in the d/d. I have to take a little feral
to the vet so I'll see if she has it. Doubtful, though, she's the one
who said I should take Shadow off of Hills. I printed out the
analysis and ingredients for her just in case, though. If he will eat
it, the d/d looks pretty good.

Phil P.
August 7th 03, 03:09 PM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> <snip pork info - thanks!>
> >
> > Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes,
> > unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high
> > for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of
> > protein antigenicity. Also, any
> > protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
> > ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it
> > isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's
> > previous liver problems -- just a thought.
>
> I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though. :(
>
> > Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has
> > moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source
> (lamb),
> > and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent
> > carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than
> > other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats!
>
> This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his
> former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks
> pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot.

d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order it.


Though if it is
> the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he
> likely won't touch it.
>
> >> I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
> >> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
> >
> > You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of
> all
> > protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain
> > either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.
>
> I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but
> just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in
> here again!).

Rice doesn't induce gluten enteropathy - so he shouldn't have a problem.


When we switched vets and she told me to take him off
> SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything,
> I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he
> visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some
> normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of
> dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to
> so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and
> Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much
> lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach).

Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very small
increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned food? This might
make the transition a little easier - it doesn't work on all cats - but its
worth a shot.


> >
> > The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and
> 30
> > - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can
> result
> > in diarrhea.
>
> I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He
> isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the
> lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I
> *think* any way.
>
> >OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed
> > smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch
> > and secretions.
>
> I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI
> stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it
> better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though..
> I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the
> little bit of dry.

If he's already eating canned, gradually taper the dry food until he's
eating all canned.


> >
> > The next step would be home cooked diet.
>
> I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked
> chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and
> vitamins, he doesn't like it.

Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately. Although
a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called palat*able or
chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple*ment- use fractionated doses from a
multivitamin and min*eral supp. The flavored supplements could contain
potentially allergenic proteins or additives.


I only do this to get past some of the
> worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I
> talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there
> published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones.


I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back to my main
computer.

Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce inflammation. Did
you ever try the glutamine you asked about?

Good luck

Phil

Phil P.
August 7th 03, 03:09 PM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> <snip pork info - thanks!>
> >
> > Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes,
> > unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high
> > for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of
> > protein antigenicity. Also, any
> > protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
> > ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it
> > isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's
> > previous liver problems -- just a thought.
>
> I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though. :(
>
> > Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has
> > moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source
> (lamb),
> > and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent
> > carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than
> > other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats!
>
> This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his
> former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks
> pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot.

d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order it.


Though if it is
> the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he
> likely won't touch it.
>
> >> I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
> >> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains
> >
> > You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of
> all
> > protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain
> > either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.
>
> I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but
> just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in
> here again!).

Rice doesn't induce gluten enteropathy - so he shouldn't have a problem.


When we switched vets and she told me to take him off
> SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything,
> I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he
> visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some
> normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of
> dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to
> so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and
> Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much
> lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach).

Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very small
increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned food? This might
make the transition a little easier - it doesn't work on all cats - but its
worth a shot.


> >
> > The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and
> 30
> > - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila*tion can
> result
> > in diarrhea.
>
> I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He
> isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the
> lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I
> *think* any way.
>
> >OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed
> > smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch
> > and secretions.
>
> I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI
> stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it
> better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though..
> I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the
> little bit of dry.

If he's already eating canned, gradually taper the dry food until he's
eating all canned.


> >
> > The next step would be home cooked diet.
>
> I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked
> chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and
> vitamins, he doesn't like it.

Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately. Although
a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called palat*able or
chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple*ment- use fractionated doses from a
multivitamin and min*eral supp. The flavored supplements could contain
potentially allergenic proteins or additives.


I only do this to get past some of the
> worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I
> talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there
> published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones.


I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back to my main
computer.

Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce inflammation. Did
you ever try the glutamine you asked about?

Good luck

Phil

Cheryl
August 8th 03, 01:59 AM
In ,
Phil P. > composed with style:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...

> d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order
> it.
>
Taking Shamrock tomorrow so I'll have them order some if they don't
have it.

>
> Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very
> small increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned
> food? This might make the transition a little easier - it doesn't
> work on all cats - but its worth a shot.
>
I've tried that, tried mixing the dry with canned also. He's down to
a very little bit of dry food now. I think the crappy Friskies is
causing loose stools for Shamrock now.
>
> Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately.
> Although a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called
> palat*able or chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple*ment- use
> fractionated doses from a multivitamin and min*eral supp.

I only use natural supplements now and put them in gelcaps; both get
fish oil each night: a 1000 mg cap dribbled into small gelcaps to make
3 doses, they each get one of those thirds. I got a Wysong supplement
that you sprinkle on the food (contains catnip of all things!) which I
only use when feeding the chicken and less real catfood. It has
taurine in it. Now ya'll have me worried about too much protein and
fat when feeding all meat. *sigh* Still giving the F&S VitaCaps (vet
is ok with that for both kitties).

> >I only do this to get past some of the
>> worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough

[re: IBD recipes]
>
> I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back
> to my main computer.

I'd appreciate it.
>
> Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce
> inflammation.

See above re: fish oil

>Did you ever try the glutamine you asked about?

1 600mg capsule every other day.

Cheryl
August 8th 03, 01:59 AM
In ,
Phil P. > composed with style:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> ...

> d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order
> it.
>
Taking Shamrock tomorrow so I'll have them order some if they don't
have it.

>
> Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very
> small increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned
> food? This might make the transition a little easier - it doesn't
> work on all cats - but its worth a shot.
>
I've tried that, tried mixing the dry with canned also. He's down to
a very little bit of dry food now. I think the crappy Friskies is
causing loose stools for Shamrock now.
>
> Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately.
> Although a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called
> palat*able or chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple*ment- use
> fractionated doses from a multivitamin and min*eral supp.

I only use natural supplements now and put them in gelcaps; both get
fish oil each night: a 1000 mg cap dribbled into small gelcaps to make
3 doses, they each get one of those thirds. I got a Wysong supplement
that you sprinkle on the food (contains catnip of all things!) which I
only use when feeding the chicken and less real catfood. It has
taurine in it. Now ya'll have me worried about too much protein and
fat when feeding all meat. *sigh* Still giving the F&S VitaCaps (vet
is ok with that for both kitties).

> >I only do this to get past some of the
>> worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough

[re: IBD recipes]
>
> I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back
> to my main computer.

I'd appreciate it.
>
> Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce
> inflammation.

See above re: fish oil

>Did you ever try the glutamine you asked about?

1 600mg capsule every other day.

Steve Crane
August 9th 03, 12:41 AM
"Jon C" > wrote in message >...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> > > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> > > source?
> >
> > Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> > Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> > Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> > Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> > Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> > Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> > Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> > Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> > Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> > Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> > Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)
>
>
> I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
> carb levels that are far lower..
>
> Jon


Jon,
The objective of a metabolic ketosis generating food is to switch
the cat into a state of ketosis. Basically change the cat from
utilizing glucose over to ketosis. Both MD and DM dry products are
about 15% DMB carbohydrates. Both cause ketosis. Driving carbohydrates
any lower serves absolutely no positive gain. An analogy is shooting a
gopher. A 22 beullet through the head kills the gopher, a 12 guage
shotgun will do the trick too. Either way the gopher is dead. If you
can drive the cat into ketosis with 15% carbs, then it is possible to
pay attention to other issues, like insuring there isn't excess levels
of calcium and phosphorus in the diet. What happens when you go to
extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with
calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of
maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite
dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age.
Most wellness products I have looked at are always above the KNF
levels for calcium and phosphorus, most likely due to buying less
expensive meat meals with a higher levels of ground up bone tissue.
You have to wonder how a food can end up with 1.5% calcium when
chicken meat by itself is only 0.01% calcium. There is little calcium
in the grains nor in other ingredients. The vast majority comes from
ground up bones in meat meals - the cheaper the meat meals the higher
the percentage of ground up bone tissue. I have not looked at wellness
cat products in some time but just finished looking at their canine
products. I presume the results will be similar.

Steve Crane
August 9th 03, 12:41 AM
"Jon C" > wrote in message >...
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat
> > > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein
> > > source?
> >
> > Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0%
> > Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0%
> > Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5%
> > Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5%
> > Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89%
> > Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76%
> > Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36%
> > Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73%
> > Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046%
> > Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30%
> > Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm)
>
>
> I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have
> carb levels that are far lower..
>
> Jon


Jon,
The objective of a metabolic ketosis generating food is to switch
the cat into a state of ketosis. Basically change the cat from
utilizing glucose over to ketosis. Both MD and DM dry products are
about 15% DMB carbohydrates. Both cause ketosis. Driving carbohydrates
any lower serves absolutely no positive gain. An analogy is shooting a
gopher. A 22 beullet through the head kills the gopher, a 12 guage
shotgun will do the trick too. Either way the gopher is dead. If you
can drive the cat into ketosis with 15% carbs, then it is possible to
pay attention to other issues, like insuring there isn't excess levels
of calcium and phosphorus in the diet. What happens when you go to
extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with
calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of
maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite
dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age.
Most wellness products I have looked at are always above the KNF
levels for calcium and phosphorus, most likely due to buying less
expensive meat meals with a higher levels of ground up bone tissue.
You have to wonder how a food can end up with 1.5% calcium when
chicken meat by itself is only 0.01% calcium. There is little calcium
in the grains nor in other ingredients. The vast majority comes from
ground up bones in meat meals - the cheaper the meat meals the higher
the percentage of ground up bone tissue. I have not looked at wellness
cat products in some time but just finished looking at their canine
products. I presume the results will be similar.

Cheryl
August 9th 03, 12:59 AM
(Steve Crane) wrote in
om:

> What happens when you go to
> extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with
> calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of
> maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite
> dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age.
>

Yikes. The feline IBD group has posters talking about how FF is a lower
grain food, and Sheba also. Yes, I look at ingredients now based on what my
cat can tolerate and the FF has wheat gluten, which I've read wheat is an
allergen the same as corn can be (allergen is the wrong word; harder to
digest may be the right words). I've actually tried switching my IBD cat to
FF because it looks a step up from the friskies canned that he'll eat
(won't touch any others). He's deteriorating quickly these days and I'm
tempted to just let him eat the dry he likes and not worry about canned any
more. If I try to switch him to a food that is good for his problem, he
will starve to death and I know this because I've been trying.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 9th 03, 12:59 AM
(Steve Crane) wrote in
om:

> What happens when you go to
> extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with
> calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of
> maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite
> dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age.
>

Yikes. The feline IBD group has posters talking about how FF is a lower
grain food, and Sheba also. Yes, I look at ingredients now based on what my
cat can tolerate and the FF has wheat gluten, which I've read wheat is an
allergen the same as corn can be (allergen is the wrong word; harder to
digest may be the right words). I've actually tried switching my IBD cat to
FF because it looks a step up from the friskies canned that he'll eat
(won't touch any others). He's deteriorating quickly these days and I'm
tempted to just let him eat the dry he likes and not worry about canned any
more. If I try to switch him to a food that is good for his problem, he
will starve to death and I know this because I've been trying.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.