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Joe
July 1st 03, 08:20 PM
wrote:

> My poor little timid cat would be really freaked. She doesn't like any
> surface she can't get a good grip on (she hates slippery floors) and
> without her claws it would make the carpet that much more slippery for
> her (she likes to dig her claws in and run when some new person is
> coming in, you can hear her run frmo the claws being dug in).

Sometimes when Kiki is in a certain mood, she will grip the carpet with
her claws as she walks. I can hear her claws releasing with each step.

Devlin Tay
August 5th 03, 09:50 AM
"Linda Terrell" > wrote in message
news:epxRkhlUwRo0-pn2-

> Have several scratching posts around -- the kind with the rope
> works best.

Yeah, they work really well. And kitty's claws will peel off regularly (the
old outer surface just sorta moulds as the younger tissue grows and pushes
out from underneath) when she uses the scratching posts, so clipping isn't
usually a problem when the kitty has, and regularly uses, a suitable
scratching post.

Devlin
Perth, Australia

kaeli
August 5th 03, 02:29 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Yeah, they work really well. And kitty's claws will peel off regularly (the
> old outer surface just sorta moulds as the younger tissue grows and pushes
> out from underneath) when she uses the scratching posts, so clipping isn't
> usually a problem when the kitty has, and regularly uses, a suitable
> scratching post.
>

My cats love the sisal posts.

I do clip their nails though so when they run around chasing each other
like maniacs, their claws don't catch on the carpet or the couch. If I
don't clip, the claws are quite sharp and I've seen them catch on the
more plush materials. Gives me a fright that one time they'll hurt their
little fingers or toes. They are used to clipping and I've never nicked
the quick, so they all tolerate it well and two of them purr while I'm
doing it.


-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Found God? If nobody claims Him in 30 days,
He's yours to keep.
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any
more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Bill Henderson
August 7th 03, 12:56 PM
> I am not a cat lover but their would have to be some bloody good reason to
> make me to maltreat a it.

Doesn't make sense. It should have said:

I am not a cat lover but there would have to be a bloody good reason to make
me maltreat it.

Sorry

Bill

Bill Henderson
August 7th 03, 05:19 PM
>
> She said she *clips* their claws. You know, trims them - clips off the
> needle-sharp points.
>
> Cathy
>
> --

Cathy
You are absolutely correct. Linda -SORRY!!!!!!!!!!

Off like a bull at a gate. Must stop and think. My only feeble excuse is
that I do tend to see red when I come across de-clawing. Again sorry.

Okay the claws can be out but not in an attack mode. They are still safe.

I think that kneading is used by kittens to encourage the mother to turn on
the taps for feeding. Perhaps it's a submissive signal when older?

Bill

Relish
August 10th 03, 11:32 PM
D. Stephen Heersink wrote:
> I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
> don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
> furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
> is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals. Some extremists think
> those of us who do such things are savages, but I don't care. I love
> my cats, and my cats love me, declawed and all. But of course, they
> are NEVER allowed out doors.

Surely, you're not serious.

Relish
August 10th 03, 11:36 PM
Karen Chuplis wrote:
> in article , D. Stephen Heersink at
> wrote on 8/10/03 3:45 PM:
>
>
>>I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
>>don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
>>furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
>>is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals. Some extremists think
>>those of us who do such things are savages, but I don't care. I love
>>my cats, and my cats love me, declawed and all. But of course, they
>>are NEVER allowed out doors.
>>
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>___________________
>>D. Stephen Heersink
>>San Francisco

>
>
> I've had cats all my life. I do not have scars. My furniture is fine. Learn
> to train the cats. Or use Soft Paws.

Ditto. There is NO excuse for declawing cats. A caring,
compassionate person will make the comparitively small effort to learn
how to train the cats and invest the couple months needed to do so.

Scratching posts and sticky pawa are all you need, along with a small
bnit of intlligence and some patience.

Anything else is simply a lazy, arrogant cop out.

If you feel your cats need declawing, find another pet.

Gary
August 11th 03, 12:25 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Cruel jerks like you always
> > *assume* that cats can't be trained (or, you just don't want to
> > invest the time in it), but, they can.
>
> You'll never convince anyone that way. Sure way to make people shut
> you out and not listen to your argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS
> influences people.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

What's the difference between "name calling" and accurate descriptive
phrases?

Gary




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Gary
August 11th 03, 12:25 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Cruel jerks like you always
> > *assume* that cats can't be trained (or, you just don't want to
> > invest the time in it), but, they can.
>
> You'll never convince anyone that way. Sure way to make people shut
> you out and not listen to your argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS
> influences people.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

What's the difference between "name calling" and accurate descriptive
phrases?

Gary




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bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 12:50 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Good luck with that statement. This group is nothing but extremists
> who like to flame away people who are not of like mind or who they
> cannot convert.

I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned declawing
for a reason, and many vets have expressed their professional opinion that
declawing is harmful to a cat, that it can cause a lot of pain, and often
psychological and/or behavior problems. I don't see why they would do this
if it was just a matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely
governments consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message, and there
are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over the 'Net (many by
vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also a great deal of anecdotal
evidence regarding the aforementioned psychological and behavior problems,
much of it from shelters dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.

That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to get
angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of people trying to
justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and there is a lot of evidence
which supports the idea that it can cause a cat a lot of misery. And as
this group is full of animal lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to
justify an unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
only natural.

Ann

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 12:50 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Good luck with that statement. This group is nothing but extremists
> who like to flame away people who are not of like mind or who they
> cannot convert.

I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned declawing
for a reason, and many vets have expressed their professional opinion that
declawing is harmful to a cat, that it can cause a lot of pain, and often
psychological and/or behavior problems. I don't see why they would do this
if it was just a matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely
governments consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message, and there
are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over the 'Net (many by
vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also a great deal of anecdotal
evidence regarding the aforementioned psychological and behavior problems,
much of it from shelters dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.

That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to get
angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of people trying to
justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and there is a lot of evidence
which supports the idea that it can cause a cat a lot of misery. And as
this group is full of animal lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to
justify an unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
only natural.

Ann

Gary
August 11th 03, 01:39 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > What's the difference between "name calling" and accurate descriptive
> > phrases?
> >
>
> You mean like close-minded, self-absorbed, "everyone should think the
> way I do" purists like you? That's dead on, but saying so would never
> get you to even consider anything I say seriusly. I'm just saying you
> do the issue much more harm than good with you PERSONAL OPINION of
> someone thrown in.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

That's what usenet is about - PERSONAL OPINION. Deal with it.

Gary




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Gary
August 11th 03, 01:39 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > What's the difference between "name calling" and accurate descriptive
> > phrases?
> >
>
> You mean like close-minded, self-absorbed, "everyone should think the
> way I do" purists like you? That's dead on, but saying so would never
> get you to even consider anything I say seriusly. I'm just saying you
> do the issue much more harm than good with you PERSONAL OPINION of
> someone thrown in.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

That's what usenet is about - PERSONAL OPINION. Deal with it.

Gary




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Mike
August 11th 03, 01:40 AM
> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion. How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

But if the cat died "as a result of a countries laws", wouldn't that then
mean the person who took the cat to be declawed in the first place was
indeed the "cruel" one?

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 01:40 AM
> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion. How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

But if the cat died "as a result of a countries laws", wouldn't that then
mean the person who took the cat to be declawed in the first place was
indeed the "cruel" one?

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 01:46 AM
"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> "Brandy Alexandre" wrote:
>
> > I think you're cruel.
>
> Now who's name calling, two-faced hypocrite?!?

From a different angle he brings up a somewhat good point, relative to the
vast majority of the world where cats are eaten as often as beef, de-clawing
isn't that cruel.
That just means the rest of the world is a bit messed up. Mutilating an
animal for personal gain is wrong in my opinion.
Why not take a needle and sow up its ass if it craps outside the litter
tray?

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 01:46 AM
"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> "Brandy Alexandre" wrote:
>
> > I think you're cruel.
>
> Now who's name calling, two-faced hypocrite?!?

From a different angle he brings up a somewhat good point, relative to the
vast majority of the world where cats are eaten as often as beef, de-clawing
isn't that cruel.
That just means the rest of the world is a bit messed up. Mutilating an
animal for personal gain is wrong in my opinion.
Why not take a needle and sow up its ass if it craps outside the litter
tray?

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 01:49 AM
> From a different angle he brings up a somewhat good point, relative to the
> vast majority of the world where cats are eaten as often as beef,
de-clawing
> isn't that cruel.
> That just means the rest of the world is a bit messed up. Mutilating an
> animal for personal gain is wrong in my opinion.
> Why not take a needle and sow up its ass if it craps outside the litter
> tray?

Excuse the poor English but its getting late :)

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 01:49 AM
> From a different angle he brings up a somewhat good point, relative to the
> vast majority of the world where cats are eaten as often as beef,
de-clawing
> isn't that cruel.
> That just means the rest of the world is a bit messed up. Mutilating an
> animal for personal gain is wrong in my opinion.
> Why not take a needle and sow up its ass if it craps outside the litter
> tray?

Excuse the poor English but its getting late :)

Mike

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 02:03 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in

> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion.

As I said, there is anecdotal evidence and professional information
indicating that it's not just opinion that declawing can and often does harm
cats: it's fact. That's not hystrionic and overzelous, that's just plain
fact. I support you in living your life in whatever way you see fit that
doesn't harm another being: I don't care about your religious preference,
your sexual preference, what you wear, what you eat, if you smoke (as long
as you do so considerately), or anything else. I don't care if you belive
in God or whether the moon is made of green cheese. *That's* all a matter
of opinion and personal preference, or, in the case of believing the moon is
made of green cheese, harmless ignorance. Causing injury to another being -
particularly for your own convenience, but for any reason whatsoever - is
certainly *not* harmless, and thus, not merely a matter of personal
preference, unless you are the type of person who believes that someone
should be allowed to exercise their preference for things such as wife
beating.


How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing.

Twenty different nations agreeing on the same thing seems like far more than
"opinion" to me, and certainly argues against it being a matter of regional
and cultural preference, unless we are to believe all twenty of those
nations have the same regional and cultural bias, which seems highly
unlikely. The only two countries that haven't banned it are much more
likely to share a cultural and regional bias, that most likely being the
bias of putting the love of money above all else.


Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

I don't want that to happen. I don't want murder to happen either, but it
does. But does that mean we should make it legal? I'm not comparing
declawing to murder, but the fact that something happens illegally doesn't
justify making it legal. And for someone who encourages people to discuss
things rationally in order to make their opinions more accesible, accusing
me of wanting cats to suffer and calling me cruel because I'm against
declawing is not only irrational, but hypocritical as well.

Ann

--

For more information on the anti-declawing issue I would recommend The
Declawing Information Site:

http://stopdeclaw.com

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 02:03 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in

> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion.

As I said, there is anecdotal evidence and professional information
indicating that it's not just opinion that declawing can and often does harm
cats: it's fact. That's not hystrionic and overzelous, that's just plain
fact. I support you in living your life in whatever way you see fit that
doesn't harm another being: I don't care about your religious preference,
your sexual preference, what you wear, what you eat, if you smoke (as long
as you do so considerately), or anything else. I don't care if you belive
in God or whether the moon is made of green cheese. *That's* all a matter
of opinion and personal preference, or, in the case of believing the moon is
made of green cheese, harmless ignorance. Causing injury to another being -
particularly for your own convenience, but for any reason whatsoever - is
certainly *not* harmless, and thus, not merely a matter of personal
preference, unless you are the type of person who believes that someone
should be allowed to exercise their preference for things such as wife
beating.


How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing.

Twenty different nations agreeing on the same thing seems like far more than
"opinion" to me, and certainly argues against it being a matter of regional
and cultural preference, unless we are to believe all twenty of those
nations have the same regional and cultural bias, which seems highly
unlikely. The only two countries that haven't banned it are much more
likely to share a cultural and regional bias, that most likely being the
bias of putting the love of money above all else.


Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

I don't want that to happen. I don't want murder to happen either, but it
does. But does that mean we should make it legal? I'm not comparing
declawing to murder, but the fact that something happens illegally doesn't
justify making it legal. And for someone who encourages people to discuss
things rationally in order to make their opinions more accesible, accusing
me of wanting cats to suffer and calling me cruel because I'm against
declawing is not only irrational, but hypocritical as well.

Ann

--

For more information on the anti-declawing issue I would recommend The
Declawing Information Site:

http://stopdeclaw.com

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 02:37 AM
(D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
:

> I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
> don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
> furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
> is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.

You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
important? Get a fish. ****head.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 02:37 AM
(D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
:

> I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
> don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
> furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
> is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.

You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
important? Get a fish. ****head.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 02:43 AM
"Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
:

>> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned
>> declawing for a reason, and many vets have expressed their
>> professional opinion that declawing is harmful to a cat, that it
>> can cause a lot of pain, and often psychological and/or behavior
>> problems. I don't see why they would do this if it was just a
>> matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely governments
>> consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
>> declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message,
>> and there are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over
>> the 'Net (many by vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also
>> a great deal of anecdotal evidence regarding the aforementioned
>> psychological and behavior problems, much of it from shelters
>> dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.
>>
>> That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to
>> get angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of
>> people trying to justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and
>> there is a lot of evidence which supports the idea that it can
>> cause a cat a lot of misery. And as this group is full of animal
>> lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to justify an
>> unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
>> only natural.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>>
>
> Some European countries banned the use of nickel in their coins.

Did you just compare cats with nickels? Uh huh. This speaks volumns about
you.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 02:43 AM
"Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
:

>> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned
>> declawing for a reason, and many vets have expressed their
>> professional opinion that declawing is harmful to a cat, that it
>> can cause a lot of pain, and often psychological and/or behavior
>> problems. I don't see why they would do this if it was just a
>> matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely governments
>> consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
>> declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message,
>> and there are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over
>> the 'Net (many by vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also
>> a great deal of anecdotal evidence regarding the aforementioned
>> psychological and behavior problems, much of it from shelters
>> dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.
>>
>> That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to
>> get angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of
>> people trying to justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and
>> there is a lot of evidence which supports the idea that it can
>> cause a cat a lot of misery. And as this group is full of animal
>> lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to justify an
>> unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
>> only natural.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>>
>
> Some European countries banned the use of nickel in their coins.

Did you just compare cats with nickels? Uh huh. This speaks volumns about
you.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Relish
August 11th 03, 02:53 AM
bewtifulfreak wrote:
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>Good luck with that statement. This group is nothing but extremists
>>who like to flame away people who are not of like mind or who they
>>cannot convert.
>
>
> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned declawing
> for a reason,

Extremist: One is winning an argument with a declawer.

I'm not an extremist either. In fact, I detest protests and
agenda-driven bull**** activism.

But this is a simple case of people choosing to maim their pets for
their own convenience. There is no gray area here. It's just wrong.
THAT is why people like Brandy like to resort to the E word. It
creates a fantasy that maybe they're not horrible people. But they are.

Relish
August 11th 03, 02:53 AM
bewtifulfreak wrote:
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>Good luck with that statement. This group is nothing but extremists
>>who like to flame away people who are not of like mind or who they
>>cannot convert.
>
>
> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned declawing
> for a reason,

Extremist: One is winning an argument with a declawer.

I'm not an extremist either. In fact, I detest protests and
agenda-driven bull**** activism.

But this is a simple case of people choosing to maim their pets for
their own convenience. There is no gray area here. It's just wrong.
THAT is why people like Brandy like to resort to the E word. It
creates a fantasy that maybe they're not horrible people. But they are.

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:54 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 7:34 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned
>> declawing for a reason, and many vets have expressed their
>> professional opinion that declawing is harmful to a cat, that it
>> can cause a lot of pain, and often psychological and/or behavior
>> problems. I don't see why they would do this if it was just a
>> matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely governments
>> consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
>> declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message,
>> and there are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over
>> the 'Net (many by vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also
>> a great deal of anecdotal evidence regarding the aforementioned
>> psychological and behavior problems, much of it from shelters
>> dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.
>>
>> That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to
>> get angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of
>> people trying to justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and
>> there is a lot of evidence which supports the idea that it can
>> cause a cat a lot of misery. And as this group is full of animal
>> lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to justify an
>> unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
>> only natural.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>>
>
> Some European countries banned the use of nickel in their coins. You
> cannot take a Vicks inhaler to Japan, nor can you take nail glue (krazy
> glue). Every country has its forbidden things that simply do not make
> sense to the rest of the world. Some countries EAT cats and dogs.
> Some countries are starving and won't eat cattle, for heavens sake.
> Some Asian countries think it's insane that we drink milk because their
> bodies are complely intolerant of lactose.
>
> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion. How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except the US
and Canada.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:54 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 7:34 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I'm not an extremist, but the fact is, most countries have banned
>> declawing for a reason, and many vets have expressed their
>> professional opinion that declawing is harmful to a cat, that it
>> can cause a lot of pain, and often psychological and/or behavior
>> problems. I don't see why they would do this if it was just a
>> matter of personal preference. Considering how rarely governments
>> consider animal rights, the fact that so many have considered
>> declawing harmful enough to ban it sends a very strong message,
>> and there are certainly a number of fact-laden articles all over
>> the 'Net (many by vets) supporting that viewpoint. There is also
>> a great deal of anecdotal evidence regarding the aforementioned
>> psychological and behavior problems, much of it from shelters
>> dealing with the fallout of this proceedure.
>>
>> That is the reason it's very difficult for most people here not to
>> get angry, extreme or resort to name calling when they hear of
>> people trying to justify the proceedure; it is unneccessary, and
>> there is a lot of evidence which supports the idea that it can
>> cause a cat a lot of misery. And as this group is full of animal
>> lovers, it angers them to hear people trying to justify an
>> unecessary procedure that makes innocent animals suffer....that's
>> only natural.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>>
>
> Some European countries banned the use of nickel in their coins. You
> cannot take a Vicks inhaler to Japan, nor can you take nail glue (krazy
> glue). Every country has its forbidden things that simply do not make
> sense to the rest of the world. Some countries EAT cats and dogs.
> Some countries are starving and won't eat cattle, for heavens sake.
> Some Asian countries think it's insane that we drink milk because their
> bodies are complely intolerant of lactose.
>
> There are regional and cultural issues surrounding everything we do and
> one country will be in line with it while another will not. Glom on to
> whatever fits within your ideal, but don't discount everything that
> does not as "just wrong." Because by and large it isn't. It's just an
> opinion. How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.

We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except the US
and Canada.

Karen

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 03:18 AM
Gary > wrote in :

> I have trained mine to sharpen their
> claws on rubber flip-flops ("shower shoes"), and I buy a sacrificial pair
> every year just for them. I actually got down and showed them how to use
> them (repeatedly); it didn't take long till they had the idea.
>
> Figure it out! (My cats did)
>
>

LOL I remember you.

To the unbelievers, cats can be trained. I have a new feral cat and she is
already learning from the others where to scratch and I haven't even had to
show her. Her first months were in the wild. This pic with her near a
very scratched up post is part of what teaches her. The others had to
learn before her so she has an advantage. My furniture is intact. My skin,
well, we like to play rough sometimes.
<http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat>


--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 11th 03, 03:18 AM
Gary > wrote in :

> I have trained mine to sharpen their
> claws on rubber flip-flops ("shower shoes"), and I buy a sacrificial pair
> every year just for them. I actually got down and showed them how to use
> them (repeatedly); it didn't take long till they had the idea.
>
> Figure it out! (My cats did)
>
>

LOL I remember you.

To the unbelievers, cats can be trained. I have a new feral cat and she is
already learning from the others where to scratch and I haven't even had to
show her. Her first months were in the wild. This pic with her near a
very scratched up post is part of what teaches her. The others had to
learn before her so she has an advantage. My furniture is intact. My skin,
well, we like to play rough sometimes.
<http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat>


--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Chris Jones
August 11th 03, 03:39 AM
barbaric is prince william hunting for deer with a bow and arrow


"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> (D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
> :
>
> > I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
> > don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
> > furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
> > is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.
>
> You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
> America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
> barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
> important? Get a fish. ****head.
>
> --
> Cheryl
>
> "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
> -Mario Andretti.
>


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30/07/2003

Chris Jones
August 11th 03, 03:39 AM
barbaric is prince william hunting for deer with a bow and arrow


"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> (D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
> :
>
> > I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
> > don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
> > furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
> > is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.
>
> You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
> America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
> barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
> important? Get a fish. ****head.
>
> --
> Cheryl
>
> "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
> -Mario Andretti.
>


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30/07/2003

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:42 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:45 PM:

> Given that there are a HUGE number of people in THIS country who
> opposed a nationwide ban, it wouldn't be surprising that the same is
> true for any other country.

There has never been a call yet for a nation wide ban, more's the pity.
Would you care to post specifics. And numbers of the HUGE number of people.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:42 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:45 PM:

> Given that there are a HUGE number of people in THIS country who
> opposed a nationwide ban, it wouldn't be surprising that the same is
> true for any other country.

There has never been a call yet for a nation wide ban, more's the pity.
Would you care to post specifics. And numbers of the HUGE number of people.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:44 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:47 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except
>> the US and Canada.
>>
>
> Please list them. I'm absolutely certain you're wrong.
England
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France
Germany
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Ireland
Denmark
Finland
Slovenia
Portugal
Belgium
Spain
Brazil
Australia
New Zealand

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:44 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:47 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except
>> the US and Canada.
>>
>
> Please list them. I'm absolutely certain you're wrong.
England
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France
Germany
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Ireland
Denmark
Finland
Slovenia
Portugal
Belgium
Spain
Brazil
Australia
New Zealand

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:45 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:49 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> It's really extreme to say train the cat or use Soft Paws. Gasp.
>> You might have to put some work into having a cat.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You don't know me or what goes on in my house. We've had this
> "conversation" before, but all you did was slect word and write your
> own sentences. You aren't capable of a rational discussion on
> anything. That much is clear by your twisting and argument on your
> personally distorted contexts.

Not rational discussion. Show me where I have been irrational.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:45 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 9:49 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> It's really extreme to say train the cat or use Soft Paws. Gasp.
>> You might have to put some work into having a cat.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You don't know me or what goes on in my house. We've had this
> "conversation" before, but all you did was slect word and write your
> own sentences. You aren't capable of a rational discussion on
> anything. That much is clear by your twisting and argument on your
> personally distorted contexts.

Not rational discussion. Show me where I have been irrational.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:46 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 9:56 PM:

> "Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
> :
>
>> I suppose it also speaks volumes about you that you cut one single line
>> of my post out of context to common on and attack me with.
>
> Boo hoo. I guess that is all that was worth archiving. You x-no-archive
> that is the price you pay.
>
> Seems
>> you're too weak-minded to hold up a real argument. Let the grownups
>> talk, honey. It's past your bedtime.
>>
>
> The only come-back of an old washed up porn star who keeps posting to cat
> groups and doesn't give a **** about what happens to them. You don't
> deserve an argument. You deserve flames. Nothing more.

Did you ever notice there are maybe TWO posters defending declawing and at
least ten listing rational reasons not to do it and how cats can be trained,
WITH examples? Huh. Interesting, isn't it?

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 04:46 AM
in article , Cheryl at
wrote on 8/10/03 9:56 PM:

> "Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
> :
>
>> I suppose it also speaks volumes about you that you cut one single line
>> of my post out of context to common on and attack me with.
>
> Boo hoo. I guess that is all that was worth archiving. You x-no-archive
> that is the price you pay.
>
> Seems
>> you're too weak-minded to hold up a real argument. Let the grownups
>> talk, honey. It's past your bedtime.
>>
>
> The only come-back of an old washed up porn star who keeps posting to cat
> groups and doesn't give a **** about what happens to them. You don't
> deserve an argument. You deserve flames. Nothing more.

Did you ever notice there are maybe TWO posters defending declawing and at
least ten listing rational reasons not to do it and how cats can be trained,
WITH examples? Huh. Interesting, isn't it?

Karen

August 11th 03, 07:10 AM
Is it me or does Brandy remind people of a certain three letter poster
(who will remain nameless cause I heard rumorst hat if she hears her name
she comes back) who used to troll this group a long time back? Would come
around maybe twice a year and defend declawing and such.

And I love whatever she does that makes her posts unrespondable to by my
newsreader (tin).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

August 11th 03, 07:10 AM
Is it me or does Brandy remind people of a certain three letter poster
(who will remain nameless cause I heard rumorst hat if she hears her name
she comes back) who used to troll this group a long time back? Would come
around maybe twice a year and defend declawing and such.

And I love whatever she does that makes her posts unrespondable to by my
newsreader (tin).

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.

Mike
August 11th 03, 08:10 AM
> Your analogy doesn't work, Mike. Try again.

I must disagree - my point was mutilation for personal gain or convenience
is wrong. Sowing up a cats ass is the same thing, and just as twisted.

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 08:10 AM
> Your analogy doesn't work, Mike. Try again.

I must disagree - my point was mutilation for personal gain or convenience
is wrong. Sowing up a cats ass is the same thing, and just as twisted.

Mike

-L.
August 11th 03, 09:29 AM
Cheryl > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
> :
>
> > I suppose it also speaks volumes about you that you cut one single line
> > of my post out of context to common on and attack me with.
>
> Boo hoo. I guess that is all that was worth archiving. You x-no-archive
> that is the price you pay.
>
> Seems
> > you're too weak-minded to hold up a real argument. Let the grownups
> > talk, honey. It's past your bedtime.
> >
>
> The only come-back of an old washed up porn star who keeps posting to cat
> groups and doesn't give a **** about what happens to them. You don't
> deserve an argument. You deserve flames. Nothing more.

Please. Don't tell me that cow is back. I was hoping she had
succumed to syphilis or something...

-L.

-L.
August 11th 03, 09:29 AM
Cheryl > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in
> :
>
> > I suppose it also speaks volumes about you that you cut one single line
> > of my post out of context to common on and attack me with.
>
> Boo hoo. I guess that is all that was worth archiving. You x-no-archive
> that is the price you pay.
>
> Seems
> > you're too weak-minded to hold up a real argument. Let the grownups
> > talk, honey. It's past your bedtime.
> >
>
> The only come-back of an old washed up porn star who keeps posting to cat
> groups and doesn't give a **** about what happens to them. You don't
> deserve an argument. You deserve flames. Nothing more.

Please. Don't tell me that cow is back. I was hoping she had
succumed to syphilis or something...

-L.

Bill Henderson
August 11th 03, 10:30 AM
"Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
...
>

>except for a few exceptions.
>

Did I really type that? Sorry - too much "water of life" last night.

Bill

Bill Henderson
August 11th 03, 10:30 AM
"Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
...
>

>except for a few exceptions.
>

Did I really type that? Sorry - too much "water of life" last night.

Bill

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 10:32 AM
"Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> >except for a few exceptions.
> >
>
> Did I really type that? Sorry - too much "water of life" last night.

LOL....I'm glad I'm not the only one who reads back over my posts and
ocassionally cringes....I mean, I must have misspelled "procedure" about
three or four times in one of my recent posts! Thank goodness most of the
people in these groups are generally very forgiving and don't hold it
against us.... :)

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 10:32 AM
"Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> >except for a few exceptions.
> >
>
> Did I really type that? Sorry - too much "water of life" last night.

LOL....I'm glad I'm not the only one who reads back over my posts and
ocassionally cringes....I mean, I must have misspelled "procedure" about
three or four times in one of my recent posts! Thank goodness most of the
people in these groups are generally very forgiving and don't hold it
against us.... :)

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Gary
August 11th 03, 10:37 AM
Cheryl wrote:

> LOL I remember you.
>
> To the unbelievers, cats can be trained. I have a new feral cat and she is
> already learning from the others where to scratch and I haven't even had to
> show her. Her first months were in the wild. This pic with her near a
> very scratched up post is part of what teaches her. The others had to
> learn before her so she has an advantage. My furniture is intact. My skin,
> well, we like to play rough sometimes.
> <http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat>
>
> --
> Cheryl

Yep, that's why I didn't mention anything about scratches, as there's one on my
wrist that's healing right now. We play a little rough, too, sometimes (and
it's from the back claws, not the front :o)

Gary



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Gary
August 11th 03, 10:37 AM
Cheryl wrote:

> LOL I remember you.
>
> To the unbelievers, cats can be trained. I have a new feral cat and she is
> already learning from the others where to scratch and I haven't even had to
> show her. Her first months were in the wild. This pic with her near a
> very scratched up post is part of what teaches her. The others had to
> learn before her so she has an advantage. My furniture is intact. My skin,
> well, we like to play rough sometimes.
> <http://community.webshots.com/photo/75552731/85147301OptGat>
>
> --
> Cheryl

Yep, that's why I didn't mention anything about scratches, as there's one on my
wrist that's healing right now. We play a little rough, too, sometimes (and
it's from the back claws, not the front :o)

Gary



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Gary
August 11th 03, 10:38 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > That's what usenet is about - PERSONAL OPINION. Deal with it.
>
> I deal with it just fine when it's evident others posting understand
> that as well. I didn't get that impression from you.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

Bend over - I'll give you an "impression"!

Gary




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Gary
August 11th 03, 10:38 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" wrote:

> Gary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > That's what usenet is about - PERSONAL OPINION. Deal with it.
>
> I deal with it just fine when it's evident others posting understand
> that as well. I didn't get that impression from you.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

Bend over - I'll give you an "impression"!

Gary




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:25 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 10:39 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> There has never been a call yet for a nation wide ban, more's the
>> pity. Would you care to post specifics. And numbers of the HUGE
>> number of people.
>>
>
> You seem to rely heavily on anecdotal evidence, so here's an anecdote:
> It's still widely done and widely requested. Attempts to ban it have
> caused a great deal of controversy. One need only look at WQest
> Hollywood. That's supportive enough of my assumption. I think it
> supports my argument more than you little anecdotes support yours.

I've given proof and statistics in other threads and Lauren posted the
studies again here last night. Get your glasses out.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 02:25 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/10/03 10:39 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> There has never been a call yet for a nation wide ban, more's the
>> pity. Would you care to post specifics. And numbers of the HUGE
>> number of people.
>>
>
> You seem to rely heavily on anecdotal evidence, so here's an anecdote:
> It's still widely done and widely requested. Attempts to ban it have
> caused a great deal of controversy. One need only look at WQest
> Hollywood. That's supportive enough of my assumption. I think it
> supports my argument more than you little anecdotes support yours.

I've given proof and statistics in other threads and Lauren posted the
studies again here last night. Get your glasses out.

Karen

Relish
August 11th 03, 03:02 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>Not rational discussion. Show me where I have been irrational.
>>
>
>
> I have over and over. Simply the fact that you're irrational is why
> you don't remember and it has never sunk in.
>

Cop out.

Relish
August 11th 03, 03:02 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>Not rational discussion. Show me where I have been irrational.
>>
>
>
> I have over and over. Simply the fact that you're irrational is why
> you don't remember and it has never sunk in.
>

Cop out.

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 03:18 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:

| in article , Cathouse

% nslookup 207.14.113.17

Name: pita.alt.net
Address: 207.14.113.17
%

(And dosa.alt.net is 207.14.113.18)

Just note that the chance of a non-troll post from Alt.net is
vanishingly small.

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 03:18 PM
In >, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:

| in article , Cathouse

% nslookup 207.14.113.17

Name: pita.alt.net
Address: 207.14.113.17
%

(And dosa.alt.net is 207.14.113.18)

Just note that the chance of a non-troll post from Alt.net is
vanishingly small.

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 04:42 PM
In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
*> wrote:

| How many industrialized nations are there in the world anyway?
| Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit there's
| still an underground for it

Cite your source, please.

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 04:42 PM
In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
*> wrote:

| How many industrialized nations are there in the world anyway?
| Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit there's
| still an underground for it

Cite your source, please.

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 05:25 PM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> You forgot:

<list of countries snipped>

That's your argument? Nothing to say on the article I shared? No sources
for your claims? I'm still not convinced.


"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> No one is arguing for declawing cats as a matter of course in the
> keeping of them. It's an argument about access to professional, safe,
> and legal procedure when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken.
> It these sweeping generalizations that turn people off to your point of
> view.

Ur, Brandy darling....you were *indeed* arguing for declawing cats as a
matter of course for keeping them. Say you:

"This is the first time i've declawed a cat and for our relationship is was
necessary."

I highly doubt other efforts had failed and could not be undertaken, unless
you mean you tried to train your cat to use the scratching post and couldn't
do it the first day. However, if you'd have taken even a cursory look at
the links I provided, you will see that even in the countries declawing is
banned, there *is* still access to a professional safe and legal procedure
when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken, so no one who's cat has a
medically necessary reason for being declawed need resort to a back alley
chop job.

Feel better now?

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 05:25 PM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> You forgot:

<list of countries snipped>

That's your argument? Nothing to say on the article I shared? No sources
for your claims? I'm still not convinced.


"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> No one is arguing for declawing cats as a matter of course in the
> keeping of them. It's an argument about access to professional, safe,
> and legal procedure when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken.
> It these sweeping generalizations that turn people off to your point of
> view.

Ur, Brandy darling....you were *indeed* arguing for declawing cats as a
matter of course for keeping them. Say you:

"This is the first time i've declawed a cat and for our relationship is was
necessary."

I highly doubt other efforts had failed and could not be undertaken, unless
you mean you tried to train your cat to use the scratching post and couldn't
do it the first day. However, if you'd have taken even a cursory look at
the links I provided, you will see that even in the countries declawing is
banned, there *is* still access to a professional safe and legal procedure
when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken, so no one who's cat has a
medically necessary reason for being declawed need resort to a back alley
chop job.

Feel better now?

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Relish
August 11th 03, 05:35 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> Relish > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>>I have over and over. Simply the fact that you're irrational is
>>>why you don't remember and it has never sunk in.
>>>
>>
>>Cop out.
>>
>
>
> Says you, but it's still the truth.
>

Yup, "says me." Now go inside and have your milk and cookies.

Relish
August 11th 03, 05:35 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> Relish > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>>I have over and over. Simply the fact that you're irrational is
>>>why you don't remember and it has never sunk in.
>>>
>>
>>Cop out.
>>
>
>
> Says you, but it's still the truth.
>

Yup, "says me." Now go inside and have your milk and cookies.

Mike
August 11th 03, 06:57 PM
> Actually, no. Sewing up a cat's anus would kill it. Declawing, if
> done right, isn't fatal.

True it would kill it, but this is not the point. Altering animals for
conveniance isnt right.

Mike

Mike
August 11th 03, 06:57 PM
> Actually, no. Sewing up a cat's anus would kill it. Declawing, if
> done right, isn't fatal.

True it would kill it, but this is not the point. Altering animals for
conveniance isnt right.

Mike

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 07:13 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> > wrote:

> Just a note: fingernails and claws are *not* the same. Our nails are
> actually hardened (keratinized) skin, and do not grow out of a bone.
> Removing a fingernail does not require amputation of any bones.
>
> A claw is an integral part of the distal phalanx (the third, outermost
> bone of the finger), and grows directly out of it.

Thank you for this detailed explaination.


Thus, declawing
> requires amputation of the distal phalanx. The problem with partial
> amputation (yes, sawing through rather than disjointing) is that claw
> regrowth can happen - almost always in misshapen form.

You mean with the laser declawing? This sounds at *least* as bad as having
the toe taken completely off!

Again, thank you for broadening my declawing knowledge. The more I hear,
the more I know it's just something I could never consider. I still feel
bad for declawing one of our kitties way back when before I realized the
reality of the procedure, and we would never have considered it then, except
that we were told we couldn't have her in the apartment we wanted to rent
unless we did it. Knowing then what I know now, I would have given up the
nice apartment and found another.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 07:13 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> > wrote:

> Just a note: fingernails and claws are *not* the same. Our nails are
> actually hardened (keratinized) skin, and do not grow out of a bone.
> Removing a fingernail does not require amputation of any bones.
>
> A claw is an integral part of the distal phalanx (the third, outermost
> bone of the finger), and grows directly out of it.

Thank you for this detailed explaination.


Thus, declawing
> requires amputation of the distal phalanx. The problem with partial
> amputation (yes, sawing through rather than disjointing) is that claw
> regrowth can happen - almost always in misshapen form.

You mean with the laser declawing? This sounds at *least* as bad as having
the toe taken completely off!

Again, thank you for broadening my declawing knowledge. The more I hear,
the more I know it's just something I could never consider. I still feel
bad for declawing one of our kitties way back when before I realized the
reality of the procedure, and we would never have considered it then, except
that we were told we couldn't have her in the apartment we wanted to rent
unless we did it. Knowing then what I know now, I would have given up the
nice apartment and found another.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:31 PM
in article , Cathouse at
wrote on 8/11/03 7:05 AM:

> "Mike" > wrote in
>
>
>>> Your analogy doesn't work, Mike. Try again.
>>
>> I must disagree - my point was mutilation for personal gain or
>> convenience is wrong. Sowing up a cats ass is the same thing, and
>> just as twisted.
>>
>
> Actually, no. Sewing up a cat's anus would kill it. Declawing, if
> done right, isn't fatal.

No, just miserable.<irony> That's OH so MUCH better.</irony>

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:31 PM
in article , Cathouse at
wrote on 8/11/03 7:05 AM:

> "Mike" > wrote in
>
>
>>> Your analogy doesn't work, Mike. Try again.
>>
>> I must disagree - my point was mutilation for personal gain or
>> convenience is wrong. Sowing up a cats ass is the same thing, and
>> just as twisted.
>>
>
> Actually, no. Sewing up a cat's anus would kill it. Declawing, if
> done right, isn't fatal.

No, just miserable.<irony> That's OH so MUCH better.</irony>

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:41 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/11/03 10:42 AM:

> In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
> *> wrote:
>
> | How many industrialized nations are there in the world anyway?
> | Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit there's
> | still an underground for it
>
> Cite your source, please.
>

Like Brandy can "cite" anything. <snort>

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:41 PM
in article , Arjun Ray at
wrote on 8/11/03 10:42 AM:

> In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
> *> wrote:
>
> | How many industrialized nations are there in the world anyway?
> | Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit there's
> | still an underground for it
>
> Cite your source, please.
>

Like Brandy can "cite" anything. <snort>

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:43 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:10 AM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> England
>> Scotland
>> Wales
>> Italy
>> France
>> Germany
>> Austria
>> Switzerland
>> Norway
>> Sweden
>> Netherlands
>> Northern Ireland
>> Ireland
>> Denmark
>> Finland
>> Slovenia
>> Portugal
>> Belgium
>> Spain
>> Brazil
>> Australia
>> New Zealand
>>
>>
>> Countries where it is not:
>>
>> U.S.
>> Canada
>>
>
> You forgot:
>
I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries either.
Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just as it is
"unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul their cats off to the
vet for declawing? More fantasy.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:43 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:10 AM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> England
>> Scotland
>> Wales
>> Italy
>> France
>> Germany
>> Austria
>> Switzerland
>> Norway
>> Sweden
>> Netherlands
>> Northern Ireland
>> Ireland
>> Denmark
>> Finland
>> Slovenia
>> Portugal
>> Belgium
>> Spain
>> Brazil
>> Australia
>> New Zealand
>>
>>
>> Countries where it is not:
>>
>> U.S.
>> Canada
>>
>
> You forgot:
>
I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries either.
Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just as it is
"unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul their cats off to the
vet for declawing? More fantasy.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:44 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:14 AM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I've given proof and statistics in other threads and Lauren posted
>> the studies again here last night. Get your glasses out.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You haven't provided your sources. You seem to go out of your way to
> track down web sites that support your argument and do nothing to
> verify the information or the credentials of the person providing it.
> You're like the victim of a religious cult. It's quite sad.

Articles from the JAVMA are solid evidence. I notice you give none to the
contrary.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 11th 03, 07:44 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:14 AM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I've given proof and statistics in other threads and Lauren posted
>> the studies again here last night. Get your glasses out.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You haven't provided your sources. You seem to go out of your way to
> track down web sites that support your argument and do nothing to
> verify the information or the credentials of the person providing it.
> You're like the victim of a religious cult. It's quite sad.

Articles from the JAVMA are solid evidence. I notice you give none to the
contrary.

Karen

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 07:54 PM
In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
|

|> Thus, declawing requires amputation of the distal phalanx. The
|> problem with partial amputation (yes, sawing through rather than
|> disjointing) is that claw regrowth can happen - almost always in
| misshapen form.
|
| You mean with the laser declawing?

It's my understanding that the laser is only doing what used to be done
with guillotine-like scissors (i.e. cut through the tendons, cartilage,
etc, connecting the distal phalanx to the rest of the finger/toe, to
disjoint it). I suppose it's more "surgical" in that sense.

Declawing has had evolution in its procedures: things like "scraping out
the claw root" and "sawing off enough of the bone" are older approaches
which have failed - due to unacceptable incidence of claw regrowth - and
have been abandoned in favor of complete disjointing, which is actually
a "simpler" procedure overall. Whether it's done with a knife-edge or a
light beam is a quiddity.

| This sounds at *least* as bad as having the toe taken completely off!

Well, for a cat, that's basically what it is. We walk on our feet,
distributing the load from toes to heel. A cat walks on its distal
phalanges. The bone is at an angle to the second phalanx, not end on as
in our fingers or toes, sort of like a shoe, and lies flat along its
length when the cat walks, with the other bones arranged upward in an
arc.

Removing that bone transfers the entire pressure onto the point of the
now exposed second phalanx. The adaptation is to the increase the arc
from the wrist downward to make as much of the second (and even the
third) phalanx lie flat along the ground. In heavier cats (such as the
big cats) this can lead to collapse all the way up to the wrist. See
this before-after video of a lion whose suffering was alleviated by
reconstructive surgery:

http://www.gt.net/~pproject/naala/kona.mov

(It's referenced from http://www.pawproject.com/html/default.asp )

Arjun Ray
August 11th 03, 07:54 PM
In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
|

|> Thus, declawing requires amputation of the distal phalanx. The
|> problem with partial amputation (yes, sawing through rather than
|> disjointing) is that claw regrowth can happen - almost always in
| misshapen form.
|
| You mean with the laser declawing?

It's my understanding that the laser is only doing what used to be done
with guillotine-like scissors (i.e. cut through the tendons, cartilage,
etc, connecting the distal phalanx to the rest of the finger/toe, to
disjoint it). I suppose it's more "surgical" in that sense.

Declawing has had evolution in its procedures: things like "scraping out
the claw root" and "sawing off enough of the bone" are older approaches
which have failed - due to unacceptable incidence of claw regrowth - and
have been abandoned in favor of complete disjointing, which is actually
a "simpler" procedure overall. Whether it's done with a knife-edge or a
light beam is a quiddity.

| This sounds at *least* as bad as having the toe taken completely off!

Well, for a cat, that's basically what it is. We walk on our feet,
distributing the load from toes to heel. A cat walks on its distal
phalanges. The bone is at an angle to the second phalanx, not end on as
in our fingers or toes, sort of like a shoe, and lies flat along its
length when the cat walks, with the other bones arranged upward in an
arc.

Removing that bone transfers the entire pressure onto the point of the
now exposed second phalanx. The adaptation is to the increase the arc
from the wrist downward to make as much of the second (and even the
third) phalanx lie flat along the ground. In heavier cats (such as the
big cats) this can lead to collapse all the way up to the wrist. See
this before-after video of a lion whose suffering was alleviated by
reconstructive surgery:

http://www.gt.net/~pproject/naala/kona.mov

(It's referenced from http://www.pawproject.com/html/default.asp )

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 09:03 PM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...

> > You forgot:
> >
> I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries either.
> Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just as it is
> "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul their cats off to
the
> vet for declawing? More fantasy.

Thank you, Karen, for saying what I was thinking but couldn't quite put into
words.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 09:03 PM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...

> > You forgot:
> >
> I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries either.
> Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just as it is
> "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul their cats off to
the
> vet for declawing? More fantasy.

Thank you, Karen, for saying what I was thinking but couldn't quite put into
words.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 09:07 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> > wrote:

> | This sounds at *least* as bad as having the toe taken completely off!
>
> Well, for a cat, that's basically what it is.

Of course. :) What I meant is that having the claw removed only at the base
and then having it grow back all skewed and deformed sounds just as, if not
more, painful than having the whole toe removed. But no matter how it's
done, besides the surgical pain, it can clearly cause a lot of discomfort in
making the cat walk in ways it's muscles weren't made to. The example's
been used before, but if we had to walk without our toes, not only would we
be off balance, but it would put undue pressure on the front of the foot.


See
> this before-after video of a lion whose suffering was alleviated by
> reconstructive surgery:

I'm not able to access it at the moment for some reason, but will try again
later.

Thank you again for explaining things in such detail.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 11th 03, 09:07 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "bewtifulfreak"
> > wrote:

> | This sounds at *least* as bad as having the toe taken completely off!
>
> Well, for a cat, that's basically what it is.

Of course. :) What I meant is that having the claw removed only at the base
and then having it grow back all skewed and deformed sounds just as, if not
more, painful than having the whole toe removed. But no matter how it's
done, besides the surgical pain, it can clearly cause a lot of discomfort in
making the cat walk in ways it's muscles weren't made to. The example's
been used before, but if we had to walk without our toes, not only would we
be off balance, but it would put undue pressure on the front of the foot.


See
> this before-after video of a lion whose suffering was alleviated by
> reconstructive surgery:

I'm not able to access it at the moment for some reason, but will try again
later.

Thank you again for explaining things in such detail.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:16 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries
> > either. Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just
> > as it is "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul
> > their cats off to the vet for declawing? More fantasy.
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
> I've never heard such an ugly American speak as you have.

That was *totally* unwarrented; she just made a simple comment. And this is
the hypocrite that goes on about not using insults in their postings,
*ha*!!!

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:16 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries
> > either. Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just
> > as it is "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul
> > their cats off to the vet for declawing? More fantasy.
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
> I've never heard such an ugly American speak as you have.

That was *totally* unwarrented; she just made a simple comment. And this is
the hypocrite that goes on about not using insults in their postings,
*ha*!!!

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:29 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > So now you've realized you don't have a valid argument, you've
> > resorted to base insults? You sad, sad woman....
> >
> > Ann
> >
>
> I'm not the one who edited off the list of United Nations members and
> implied their ignorant and dirt poor.

I never said that. You are diverting from the real issue, which was
declawing, and trying to make this into a political argument, to distract
from the fact that you are losing the argument. And even implying some
countries are poorer than others is not making a comment on them as people;
some of the nicest people are those who aren't consumed with possesions.
I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing is
cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you tried
to change the subject.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:29 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > So now you've realized you don't have a valid argument, you've
> > resorted to base insults? You sad, sad woman....
> >
> > Ann
> >
>
> I'm not the one who edited off the list of United Nations members and
> implied their ignorant and dirt poor.

I never said that. You are diverting from the real issue, which was
declawing, and trying to make this into a political argument, to distract
from the fact that you are losing the argument. And even implying some
countries are poorer than others is not making a comment on them as people;
some of the nicest people are those who aren't consumed with possesions.
I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing is
cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you tried
to change the subject.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:41 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:11 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Like Brandy can "cite" anything. <snort>
>
> I don't know how you expect me to provide verifiable statistics for an
> underground. I do know people around the world and on a lark asked
> them to call and ask about declawing a cat. Just like most places,
> there are laws on the books, but some people just don't follow them and
> law enforcement doesn't find them important enough to enforce them.
> Not one got a "no."

Well you must have *some* vague source.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:41 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:11 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Like Brandy can "cite" anything. <snort>
>
> I don't know how you expect me to provide verifiable statistics for an
> underground. I do know people around the world and on a lark asked
> them to call and ask about declawing a cat. Just like most places,
> there are laws on the books, but some people just don't follow them and
> law enforcement doesn't find them important enough to enforce them.
> Not one got a "no."

Well you must have *some* vague source.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:42 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:13 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries
>> either. Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just
>> as it is "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul
>> their cats off to the vet for declawing? More fantasy.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> I've never heard such an ugly American speak as you have.

Oh please. It's just a truth.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:42 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:13 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I'd lay you BIG odds that declawing is not done in those countries
>> either. Especially poor nations. Declawing is a "luxury" item just
>> as it is "unnecessary". You *really* think that Nigerians haul
>> their cats off to the vet for declawing? More fantasy.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> I've never heard such an ugly American speak as you have.

Oh please. It's just a truth.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:44 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:14 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Thank you, Karen, for saying what I was thinking but couldn't
>> quite put into words.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>
> Two ugly Americans. Go ahead, offend a few more countries. You
> obviously know nothing about the world you live in. Just your little
> house, on your little street, with your little internet connection
> enabling your little fixation.

As you sit in the middle of the richest country in the world. It's not ugly,
it's the truth. Other countries aren't as fortunate as we are to be able to
indulge selfish whims.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:44 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 9:14 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Thank you, Karen, for saying what I was thinking but couldn't
>> quite put into words.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>
> Two ugly Americans. Go ahead, offend a few more countries. You
> obviously know nothing about the world you live in. Just your little
> house, on your little street, with your little internet connection
> enabling your little fixation.

As you sit in the middle of the richest country in the world. It's not ugly,
it's the truth. Other countries aren't as fortunate as we are to be able to
indulge selfish whims.

Karen

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:49 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> > I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
> > wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing
is
> > cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you
tried
> > to change the subject.

> It's the Brandy Sidestep.

Yes, and she really works at it....first she tried changing her tack from
"There is nothing wrong with declawing," to "I just don't think it should be
illegal because then it won't be available to those who need it." Which is
a ridiculous argument for keeping it legal, because how often is it
medically necessary? Besides, as I pointed out, even the countries that
have banned it will allow it to be done legally when it is medically
necessary, so her little ploy didn't work there.

Now that she realizes that, she has simply resorted to blatent insults,
after wisely pointing out in an earlier post, "You'll never convince anyone
that way. Sure way to make people shut you out and not listen to your
argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS influences people." Too bad she
doesn't take her own advice. It's just sad that when people realize they're
wrong, they don't have the integrity and good grace to simply admit it,
instead of stooping to distractionary tactics and outright aggression.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 03:49 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> > I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
> > wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing
is
> > cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you
tried
> > to change the subject.

> It's the Brandy Sidestep.

Yes, and she really works at it....first she tried changing her tack from
"There is nothing wrong with declawing," to "I just don't think it should be
illegal because then it won't be available to those who need it." Which is
a ridiculous argument for keeping it legal, because how often is it
medically necessary? Besides, as I pointed out, even the countries that
have banned it will allow it to be done legally when it is medically
necessary, so her little ploy didn't work there.

Now that she realizes that, she has simply resorted to blatent insults,
after wisely pointing out in an earlier post, "You'll never convince anyone
that way. Sure way to make people shut you out and not listen to your
argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS influences people." Too bad she
doesn't take her own advice. It's just sad that when people realize they're
wrong, they don't have the integrity and good grace to simply admit it,
instead of stooping to distractionary tactics and outright aggression.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:50 AM
in article , bewtifulfreak at
wrote on 8/11/03 9:29 PM:

> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>> So now you've realized you don't have a valid argument, you've
>>> resorted to base insults? You sad, sad woman....
>>>
>>> Ann
>>>
>>
>> I'm not the one who edited off the list of United Nations members and
>> implied their ignorant and dirt poor.
>
> I never said that. You are diverting from the real issue, which was
> declawing, and trying to make this into a political argument, to distract
> from the fact that you are losing the argument. And even implying some
> countries are poorer than others is not making a comment on them as people;
> some of the nicest people are those who aren't consumed with possesions.
> I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
> wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing is
> cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you tried
> to change the subject.
>
> Ann
>
> --
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak
>
>
>
>
>
It's the Brandy Sidestep.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 03:50 AM
in article , bewtifulfreak at
wrote on 8/11/03 9:29 PM:

> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>> So now you've realized you don't have a valid argument, you've
>>> resorted to base insults? You sad, sad woman....
>>>
>>> Ann
>>>
>>
>> I'm not the one who edited off the list of United Nations members and
>> implied their ignorant and dirt poor.
>
> I never said that. You are diverting from the real issue, which was
> declawing, and trying to make this into a political argument, to distract
> from the fact that you are losing the argument. And even implying some
> countries are poorer than others is not making a comment on them as people;
> some of the nicest people are those who aren't consumed with possesions.
> I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are lovely,
> wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the fact that declawing is
> cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about before you tried
> to change the subject.
>
> Ann
>
> --
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak
>
>
>
>
>
It's the Brandy Sidestep.

Karen

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 05:38 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Why don't you girls get a room.

Wow, that's really convincing, Brandy, what a way to get your point across
<*yawn*>....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 05:38 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Why don't you girls get a room.

Wow, that's really convincing, Brandy, what a way to get your point across
<*yawn*>....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 07:31 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:35 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are
>>>> lovely, wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the
>>>> fact that declawing
>> is
>>>> cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about
>>>> before you
>> tried
>>>> to change the subject.
>>
>>> It's the Brandy Sidestep.
>>
>> Yes, and she really works at it....first she tried changing her
>> tack from "There is nothing wrong with declawing," to "I just
>> don't think it should be illegal because then it won't be
>> available to those who need it." Which is a ridiculous argument
>> for keeping it legal, because how often is it medically necessary?
>> Besides, as I pointed out, even the countries that have banned it
>> will allow it to be done legally when it is medically necessary,
>> so her little ploy didn't work there.
>>
>> Now that she realizes that, she has simply resorted to blatent
>> insults, after wisely pointing out in an earlier post, "You'll
>> never convince anyone that way. Sure way to make people shut you
>> out and not listen to your argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS
>> influences people." Too bad she doesn't take her own advice.
>> It's just sad that when people realize they're wrong, they don't
>> have the integrity and good grace to simply admit it, instead of
>> stooping to distractionary tactics and outright aggression.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>
> Why don't you girls get a room.
>

It's official. She *knows* she's wrong.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 07:31 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:35 PM:

> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> "Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> I've no doubt many people from the nations you mentioned are
>>>> lovely, wonderful people, but that doesn't detract from the
>>>> fact that declawing
>> is
>>>> cruel and unnecessary, which is what we were talking about
>>>> before you
>> tried
>>>> to change the subject.
>>
>>> It's the Brandy Sidestep.
>>
>> Yes, and she really works at it....first she tried changing her
>> tack from "There is nothing wrong with declawing," to "I just
>> don't think it should be illegal because then it won't be
>> available to those who need it." Which is a ridiculous argument
>> for keeping it legal, because how often is it medically necessary?
>> Besides, as I pointed out, even the countries that have banned it
>> will allow it to be done legally when it is medically necessary,
>> so her little ploy didn't work there.
>>
>> Now that she realizes that, she has simply resorted to blatent
>> insults, after wisely pointing out in an earlier post, "You'll
>> never convince anyone that way. Sure way to make people shut you
>> out and not listen to your argument. Yeah, name-calling ALWAYS
>> influences people." Too bad she doesn't take her own advice.
>> It's just sad that when people realize they're wrong, they don't
>> have the integrity and good grace to simply admit it, instead of
>> stooping to distractionary tactics and outright aggression.
>>
>> Ann
>>
>
> Why don't you girls get a room.
>

It's official. She *knows* she's wrong.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 07:37 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:40 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Please CITE where I said they were IGNORANT? I said, you can't
>> tell me that they cart their cats off to a vet to indulge in the
>> luxury and unnecessary act of declawing a cat. You will try
>> anything to hide your guilt, won't you.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You implied that the whole country is dirt poor and it's not. Maybe
> you didn't say the word, but you definitely implied proving it applies
> to you more than anything else.

How does poor equal ignorant?? It does not. I never said dirt poor either.
But the FACT is, they aren't in the habit of frittering their money on
declaws. Find me someone from Nigeria who does and I'll retract.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 12th 03, 07:37 PM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/11/03 11:40 PM:

> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Please CITE where I said they were IGNORANT? I said, you can't
>> tell me that they cart their cats off to a vet to indulge in the
>> luxury and unnecessary act of declawing a cat. You will try
>> anything to hide your guilt, won't you.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>
> You implied that the whole country is dirt poor and it's not. Maybe
> you didn't say the word, but you definitely implied proving it applies
> to you more than anything else.

How does poor equal ignorant?? It does not. I never said dirt poor either.
But the FACT is, they aren't in the habit of frittering their money on
declaws. Find me someone from Nigeria who does and I'll retract.

Karen

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 11:24 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...

> The point was that most other *industrialized* nations with *similar*
> norms and values as our own have seen fit to ban the procedure. Saying
> that other nations where it is legal to cut off human body parts (human
> clitorectomy) against their wishes allow declawing and having that be
> one's argument isn't exactly convincing.

Point well made, Kaeli, dear. :)

Hugs,
Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 12th 03, 11:24 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...

> The point was that most other *industrialized* nations with *similar*
> norms and values as our own have seen fit to ban the procedure. Saying
> that other nations where it is legal to cut off human body parts (human
> clitorectomy) against their wishes allow declawing and having that be
> one's argument isn't exactly convincing.

Point well made, Kaeli, dear. :)

Hugs,
Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Cheryl
August 13th 03, 12:41 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
:

> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> The point was that most other *industrialized* nations with *similar*
>> norms and values as our own have seen fit to ban the procedure. Saying
>> that other nations where it is legal to cut off human body parts (human
>> clitorectomy) against their wishes allow declawing and having that be
>> one's argument isn't exactly convincing.
>
> Point well made, Kaeli, dear. :)
>
Yes it was but it still won't be comprehended by the intended audience.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

Cheryl
August 13th 03, 12:41 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
:

> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> The point was that most other *industrialized* nations with *similar*
>> norms and values as our own have seen fit to ban the procedure. Saying
>> that other nations where it is legal to cut off human body parts (human
>> clitorectomy) against their wishes allow declawing and having that be
>> one's argument isn't exactly convincing.
>
> Point well made, Kaeli, dear. :)
>
Yes it was but it still won't be comprehended by the intended audience.

--
Cheryl

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti.

-L.
August 13th 03, 12:57 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
> > bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> > rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >
> > > Twenty different nations agreeing on the same thing seems like far
> > > more than "opinion" to me, and certainly argues against it being a
> > > matter of regional and cultural preference, unless we are to
> > > believe all twenty of those nations have the same regional and
> > > cultural bias, which seems highly unlikely. The only two
> > > countries that haven't banned it are much more likely to share a
> > > cultural and regional bias, that most likely being the bias of
> > > putting the love of money above all else.
> >
> > Only two? Which two are you talking about and which hundreds are you
> > not?
>
> Countries where declawing is banned/illegal:
>
> (as per veterinarian Dr. Christianne Schelling's site,
> http://www.declawing.com/ , as accessed through http://stopdeclaw.com )
>
> England
> Scotland
> Wales
> Italy
> France
> Germany
> Austria
> Switzerland
> Norway
> Sweden
> Netherlands
> Northern Ireland
> Ireland
> Denmark
> Finland
> Slovenia
> Portugal
> Belgium
> Spain
> Brazil
> Australia
> New Zealand
>
>
> Countries where it is not:
>
> U.S.
> Canada
>
>

Countries not listed most likely do not engage in the practice of
declawing, because those that are listed have public, published
policies, whether or not it is umbrellaed under the guise of animal
ownership. You cannot ban something or make a legal policy about it,
if it does not exist.

Furthermore, most localities in West Africa do not have laws
pertaining to animals. For those working against the primate trade
industry, it is very difficult to get African countries to abide by
international treaties against the trade in exotic species because
local laws do not exist, and many of the locals do not see the
international treaties as enforcable, especially when the exchange of
money is involved.

If they do not have local laws regarding exotic species, which are
worth tens of thousands of dollars a piece, they are unlikely to have
laws governing common household pets.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 12:57 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
> > bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> > rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >
> > > Twenty different nations agreeing on the same thing seems like far
> > > more than "opinion" to me, and certainly argues against it being a
> > > matter of regional and cultural preference, unless we are to
> > > believe all twenty of those nations have the same regional and
> > > cultural bias, which seems highly unlikely. The only two
> > > countries that haven't banned it are much more likely to share a
> > > cultural and regional bias, that most likely being the bias of
> > > putting the love of money above all else.
> >
> > Only two? Which two are you talking about and which hundreds are you
> > not?
>
> Countries where declawing is banned/illegal:
>
> (as per veterinarian Dr. Christianne Schelling's site,
> http://www.declawing.com/ , as accessed through http://stopdeclaw.com )
>
> England
> Scotland
> Wales
> Italy
> France
> Germany
> Austria
> Switzerland
> Norway
> Sweden
> Netherlands
> Northern Ireland
> Ireland
> Denmark
> Finland
> Slovenia
> Portugal
> Belgium
> Spain
> Brazil
> Australia
> New Zealand
>
>
> Countries where it is not:
>
> U.S.
> Canada
>
>

Countries not listed most likely do not engage in the practice of
declawing, because those that are listed have public, published
policies, whether or not it is umbrellaed under the guise of animal
ownership. You cannot ban something or make a legal policy about it,
if it does not exist.

Furthermore, most localities in West Africa do not have laws
pertaining to animals. For those working against the primate trade
industry, it is very difficult to get African countries to abide by
international treaties against the trade in exotic species because
local laws do not exist, and many of the locals do not see the
international treaties as enforcable, especially when the exchange of
money is involved.

If they do not have local laws regarding exotic species, which are
worth tens of thousands of dollars a piece, they are unlikely to have
laws governing common household pets.

-L.

Brandy Alexandre
August 13th 03, 03:00 AM
kaeli > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
> as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
>

You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
world around them, I have to agree.

No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
too self-involved in your little obsessions.

--
Brandy**Alexandre®
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?

Brandy Alexandre
August 13th 03, 03:00 AM
kaeli > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
> as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
>

You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
world around them, I have to agree.

No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
too self-involved in your little obsessions.

--
Brandy**Alexandre®
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?

Karen Chuplis
August 13th 03, 04:15 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/12/03 9:00 PM:

> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
>> as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
>>
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!



>I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
> National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
> Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
> world around them, I have to agree.
>
> No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
> wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
> too self-involved in your little obsessions.

Karen Chuplis
August 13th 03, 04:15 AM
in article , Brandy*Alexandre at
? wrote on 8/12/03 9:00 PM:

> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
>> as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
>>
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!



>I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
> National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
> Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
> world around them, I have to agree.
>
> No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
> wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
> too self-involved in your little obsessions.

-L.
August 13th 03, 06:22 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
> *> wrote:
>
> | Cite your source.
>
> You first, O Brandywhine.
>
> | You're famous for making that request and getting bent out of shape
> | when people don't answer you, so set an example.
>
> Wow.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.

Um, who is she frothing about now?

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 06:22 AM
Arjun Ray > wrote in message >...
> In >, "Brandy*Alexandre"
> *> wrote:
>
> | Cite your source.
>
> You first, O Brandywhine.
>
> | You're famous for making that request and getting bent out of shape
> | when people don't answer you, so set an example.
>
> Wow.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.

Um, who is she frothing about now?

-L.

bewtifulfreak
August 13th 03, 06:40 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> I'm not the one desperate to make a point. You are the ones trumpeting
> about declawing and behaving like idiots. I don't care if you get your
> message out there or not, but just trying to tell you that you cannot
> influence people with 4th grade behavior.

"Get a room," is not 4th grade behavior? Name-calling is not 4th grade
behavior? If anyone has been immature in this, it's you; I've been very
level-handed about presenting facts to support my beliefs, and not stooping
to the nastiness you have. And you are the one who is always on about
getting points across, not me....obviously, you think mutilating a cat is
fine, and I don't expect to convince you otherwise. But when you make
stupid claims or insults trying to divert from the subject, I'm going to
mention it. This is a discussion group, and we were having a discussion on
the subject of declawing, at least until you changed the subject because you
realized you had no basis to support your point of view. If we are
trumpeting, it is because we care about animals, and hate to see ignorant
people harming them for their own convenience. But I've wasted enough of my
time interacting with the likes of you already. Clearly, you have nothing
more to say to defend your weak point of view, and I've said my piece, so
really there is nothing more to be said.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 13th 03, 06:40 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> I'm not the one desperate to make a point. You are the ones trumpeting
> about declawing and behaving like idiots. I don't care if you get your
> message out there or not, but just trying to tell you that you cannot
> influence people with 4th grade behavior.

"Get a room," is not 4th grade behavior? Name-calling is not 4th grade
behavior? If anyone has been immature in this, it's you; I've been very
level-handed about presenting facts to support my beliefs, and not stooping
to the nastiness you have. And you are the one who is always on about
getting points across, not me....obviously, you think mutilating a cat is
fine, and I don't expect to convince you otherwise. But when you make
stupid claims or insults trying to divert from the subject, I'm going to
mention it. This is a discussion group, and we were having a discussion on
the subject of declawing, at least until you changed the subject because you
realized you had no basis to support your point of view. If we are
trumpeting, it is because we care about animals, and hate to see ignorant
people harming them for their own convenience. But I've wasted enough of my
time interacting with the likes of you already. Clearly, you have nothing
more to say to defend your weak point of view, and I've said my piece, so
really there is nothing more to be said.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 13th 03, 07:09 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.

Brandy, you're just talking sh*t. What I didn't like was you twisting the
facts and making things up, nor defending a cruel and senseless practice
against innocent animals. I did not attack any countries you posted, and I
am nowhere *near* a bigot; I have friends in all different countries, of
varying races, creeds, and sexual preferences. So your calling me a bigot
and an ugly American is just plain name-calling, which you resorted to
merely because you couldn't find any valid argument to defend your bogus
point of view.

Oh, and by the way, the feeling is mutual; ignorant people like you make
*me* ashamed to be an American.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 13th 03, 07:09 AM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...

> Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.

Brandy, you're just talking sh*t. What I didn't like was you twisting the
facts and making things up, nor defending a cruel and senseless practice
against innocent animals. I did not attack any countries you posted, and I
am nowhere *near* a bigot; I have friends in all different countries, of
varying races, creeds, and sexual preferences. So your calling me a bigot
and an ugly American is just plain name-calling, which you resorted to
merely because you couldn't find any valid argument to defend your bogus
point of view.

Oh, and by the way, the feeling is mutual; ignorant people like you make
*me* ashamed to be an American.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:32 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> > nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> > beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> > disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> > It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.
>
> Brandy, you're just talking sh*t. What I didn't like was you twisting the
> facts and making things up, nor defending a cruel and senseless practice
> against innocent animals. I did not attack any countries you posted, and I
> am nowhere *near* a bigot; I have friends in all different countries, of
> varying races, creeds, and sexual preferences. So your calling me a bigot
> and an ugly American is just plain name-calling, which you resorted to
> merely because you couldn't find any valid argument to defend your bogus
> point of view.
>
> Oh, and by the way, the feeling is mutual; ignorant people like you make
> *me* ashamed to be an American.

No doubt. Besides, she knows *nothing* about the countries she
posted, other than the fact that they aren't on the list of countries
wherein declaw law has been determined. She's just blowing hot air
out that over-reamed butthole of hers again.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:32 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> > nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> > beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> > disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> > It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.
>
> Brandy, you're just talking sh*t. What I didn't like was you twisting the
> facts and making things up, nor defending a cruel and senseless practice
> against innocent animals. I did not attack any countries you posted, and I
> am nowhere *near* a bigot; I have friends in all different countries, of
> varying races, creeds, and sexual preferences. So your calling me a bigot
> and an ugly American is just plain name-calling, which you resorted to
> merely because you couldn't find any valid argument to defend your bogus
> point of view.
>
> Oh, and by the way, the feeling is mutual; ignorant people like you make
> *me* ashamed to be an American.

No doubt. Besides, she knows *nothing* about the countries she
posted, other than the fact that they aren't on the list of countries
wherein declaw law has been determined. She's just blowing hot air
out that over-reamed butthole of hers again.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:36 AM
"Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in message >...
> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
> > as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
> >
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together

read: Animal exploitation site.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:36 AM
"Brandy*Alexandre" *> wrote in message >...
> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > I don't know that countries that don't view cats like pets so much
> > as a possible alternative food source count in this argument...
> >
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together

read: Animal exploitation site.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:40 AM
wrote in message >...
> Is it me or does Brandy remind people of a certain three letter poster
> (who will remain nameless cause I heard rumorst hat if she hears her name
> she comes back) who used to troll this group a long time back? Would come
> around maybe twice a year and defend declawing and such.

She who shall not be named. AKA, the SUCUBUS.

Nah, not one and the same, but the MO is similar. Never any data.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:40 AM
wrote in message >...
> Is it me or does Brandy remind people of a certain three letter poster
> (who will remain nameless cause I heard rumorst hat if she hears her name
> she comes back) who used to troll this group a long time back? Would come
> around maybe twice a year and defend declawing and such.

She who shall not be named. AKA, the SUCUBUS.

Nah, not one and the same, but the MO is similar. Never any data.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:43 AM
Cheryl > wrote in message >...
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> :
>
> > How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> >> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> >> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> >> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> >> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.
> >
> > We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except the US
> > and Canada.
> >
>
> She's a goofy broad. I'd love to see the proof that some countries do
> declaw a la old-day-abortion-style. According to the people in these
> groups, not only is it barbaric, but some don't even know what it is. I
> don't buy it. I think the ones that don't read here or care about how to
> care for their cat (in other countries) have never considered removing
> parts of it.

Indoor-only cats is primarily an American thing. You'd be
hard-pressed to find any Brit, even, who keeps their cat indoors-only.
And obviously, indoor-only cats are the ones being declawed, not the
free-roamers.

-L.

-L.
August 13th 03, 09:43 AM
Cheryl > wrote in message >...
> Karen Chuplis > wrote in
> :
>
> > How many industrialized nations are there in the world
> >> anyway? Twenty of them have banned declawing. Half of them admit
> >> there's still an underground for it and the results have been similar
> >> to the banning of abortion--disfigurement and death. If that's what
> >> you want to happen to cats, fine. I think you're cruel.
> >
> > We aren't talking abut ONE country but rather every country except the US
> > and Canada.
> >
>
> She's a goofy broad. I'd love to see the proof that some countries do
> declaw a la old-day-abortion-style. According to the people in these
> groups, not only is it barbaric, but some don't even know what it is. I
> don't buy it. I think the ones that don't read here or care about how to
> care for their cat (in other countries) have never considered removing
> parts of it.

Indoor-only cats is primarily an American thing. You'd be
hard-pressed to find any Brit, even, who keeps their cat indoors-only.
And obviously, indoor-only cats are the ones being declawed, not the
free-roamers.

-L.

kaeli
August 13th 03, 02:13 PM
In article >,
* enlightened us with...
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
> National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
> Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
> world around them, I have to agree.
>
> No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
> wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
> too self-involved in your little obsessions.
>
>

Responding with insults is just ever so convincing.
How would you know they don't eat cats in Nigeria? Do you know whether
they eat cats in any of the other multitudes of countries you listed? Of
course you don't, and neither do I.

Trying to make a point with you is like trying to tell something to a
wall.

Never mind. YOU are the one who has no understanding at all of culture
and its impact. Trying to explain that was a waste of my time. I'm done.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
The secret of the universe is @*&^^^ NO CARRIER
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher
the probability of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 13th 03, 02:13 PM
In article >,
* enlightened us with...
>
> You ignorant louts are disgusting. I was researching pet importation,
> available of veterinary services in several countries for a web site I
> put together, along with average living standards, not the 1950s
> National Geographic you apparently read. When places like England and
> Canada say Americans are poorly educated and nearly ignorant of the
> world around them, I have to agree.
>
> No, they do not eat cats in Nigeria, as you imply, just in case you
> wanted to know. But some how I doubt you wanted to know because you're
> too self-involved in your little obsessions.
>
>

Responding with insults is just ever so convincing.
How would you know they don't eat cats in Nigeria? Do you know whether
they eat cats in any of the other multitudes of countries you listed? Of
course you don't, and neither do I.

Trying to make a point with you is like trying to tell something to a
wall.

Never mind. YOU are the one who has no understanding at all of culture
and its impact. Trying to explain that was a waste of my time. I'm done.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
The secret of the universe is @*&^^^ NO CARRIER
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher
the probability of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Relish
August 13th 03, 02:47 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>"Get a room," is not 4th grade behavior? Name-calling is not 4th
>>grade behavior? If anyone has been immature in this, it's you;
>>I've been very level-handed about presenting facts to support my
>>beliefs, and not stooping to the nastiness you have. And you are
>>the one who is always on about getting points across, not
>>me....obviously, you think mutilating a cat is fine, and I don't
>>expect to convince you otherwise. But when you make stupid claims
>>or insults trying to divert from the subject, I'm going to mention
>>it. This is a discussion group, and we were having a discussion
>>on the subject of declawing, at least until you changed the
>>subject because you realized you had no basis to support your
>>point of view. If we are trumpeting, it is because we care about
>>animals, and hate to see ignorant people harming them for their
>>own convenience. But I've wasted enough of my time interacting
>>with the likes of you already. Clearly, you have nothing more to
>>say to defend your weak point of view, and I've said my piece, so
>>really there is nothing more to be said.
>>
>>Ann
>>
>
>
> Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.
>

Ans the sanctimonious award goes to...

Relish
August 13th 03, 02:47 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> bewtifulfreak > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>"Get a room," is not 4th grade behavior? Name-calling is not 4th
>>grade behavior? If anyone has been immature in this, it's you;
>>I've been very level-handed about presenting facts to support my
>>beliefs, and not stooping to the nastiness you have. And you are
>>the one who is always on about getting points across, not
>>me....obviously, you think mutilating a cat is fine, and I don't
>>expect to convince you otherwise. But when you make stupid claims
>>or insults trying to divert from the subject, I'm going to mention
>>it. This is a discussion group, and we were having a discussion
>>on the subject of declawing, at least until you changed the
>>subject because you realized you had no basis to support your
>>point of view. If we are trumpeting, it is because we care about
>>animals, and hate to see ignorant people harming them for their
>>own convenience. But I've wasted enough of my time interacting
>>with the likes of you already. Clearly, you have nothing more to
>>say to defend your weak point of view, and I've said my piece, so
>>really there is nothing more to be said.
>>
>>Ann
>>
>
>
> Obviously your didn't like being confronting with your racism and
> nationalistic biases. I learned all I needed to about you and your
> beliefs from your attack on the list of countries I posted. It's
> disgusting. You're a bigot. That's not name-calling; that's a fact.
> It's ugly and I'm ashamed to be American if you represent us.
>

Ans the sanctimonious award goes to...

kaeli
August 14th 03, 02:59 PM
In article >,
* enlightened us with...
> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Never mind. YOU are the one who has no understanding at all of
> > culture and its impact. Trying to explain that was a waste of my
> > time. I'm done.
> >
>
> You were done back when you tried to put words in my mouth and then
> attack me with them to sell an idea. That's stupid, you were called on
> it, you can keep trying if you like, but I agree it's best that you sit
> down now.
>
>

If it makes you feel better to think it, dear, by all means.

*sigh*

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 14th 03, 02:59 PM
In article >,
* enlightened us with...
> kaeli > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Never mind. YOU are the one who has no understanding at all of
> > culture and its impact. Trying to explain that was a waste of my
> > time. I'm done.
> >
>
> You were done back when you tried to put words in my mouth and then
> attack me with them to sell an idea. That's stupid, you were called on
> it, you can keep trying if you like, but I agree it's best that you sit
> down now.
>
>

If it makes you feel better to think it, dear, by all means.

*sigh*

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 14th 03, 06:47 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> between declawing him or getting rid of him:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
>
> It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> serious damage.
>
> What would *you* do????
>

Well, if my dog nipped my kid, I wouldn't remove her teeth, I can tell
you that. I would wonder what piece of anatomy my child grabbed to
deserve it. And I wouldn't remove my dog's nails if she accidentally
scratched my kid while playing.

Cats don't scratch for no reason at all. They are even less likely to
harm your child than your dog. But we don't remove a dog's nails and
teeth to protect our kids.

Supervise kids and pets ALWAYS.
Trim kitty's nails for less damage.
SoftPaws if necessary.

Very last resort: rehome to a home with no children.

Declawing is not a viable solution. Whole countries do just fine with
cats and kids without the need for it. Why would we need to?

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 14th 03, 06:47 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> between declawing him or getting rid of him:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
>
> It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> serious damage.
>
> What would *you* do????
>

Well, if my dog nipped my kid, I wouldn't remove her teeth, I can tell
you that. I would wonder what piece of anatomy my child grabbed to
deserve it. And I wouldn't remove my dog's nails if she accidentally
scratched my kid while playing.

Cats don't scratch for no reason at all. They are even less likely to
harm your child than your dog. But we don't remove a dog's nails and
teeth to protect our kids.

Supervise kids and pets ALWAYS.
Trim kitty's nails for less damage.
SoftPaws if necessary.

Very last resort: rehome to a home with no children.

Declawing is not a viable solution. Whole countries do just fine with
cats and kids without the need for it. Why would we need to?

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Kalyahna
August 15th 03, 01:03 AM
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> between declawing him or getting rid of him:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
>
> It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> serious damage.
>
> What would *you* do????

I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and blunt to be
cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and the ones
that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not cats. *shrugs* Just
doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always possible that I'm wrong.

Kalyahna
August 15th 03, 01:03 AM
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> between declawing him or getting rid of him:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
>
> It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> serious damage.
>
> What would *you* do????

I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and blunt to be
cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and the ones
that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not cats. *shrugs* Just
doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always possible that I'm wrong.

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 09:07 AM
"Kalyahna" > wrote in message
...
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> > valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> > here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> > between declawing him or getting rid of him:
> >
> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
> >
> > It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> > serious damage.
> >
> > What would *you* do????
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and blunt to
be
> cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and the ones
> that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not cats. *shrugs* Just
> doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always possible that I'm wrong.
>
>

yes just looked again... see what you mean, did the parent see the cat do
it?

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 09:07 AM
"Kalyahna" > wrote in message
...
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done for no
> > valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's necessary. See
> > here for a valid reason to declaw. With this cat, it was a choice
> > between declawing him or getting rid of him:
> >
> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
> >
> > It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly did some
> > serious damage.
> >
> > What would *you* do????
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and blunt to
be
> cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and the ones
> that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not cats. *shrugs* Just
> doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always possible that I'm wrong.
>
>

yes just looked again... see what you mean, did the parent see the cat do
it?

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 02:54 PM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>
>
> > "Kalyahna" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Katra" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done
> >> > for no valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's
> >> > necessary. See here for a valid reason to declaw. With this
> >> > cat, it was a choice between declawing him or getting rid of
> >> > him:
> >> >
> >> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
> >> >
> >> > It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly
> >> > did some serious damage.
> >> >
> >> > What would *you* do????
> >>
> >> I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and
> >> blunt to
> > be
> >> cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and
> >> the ones that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not
> >> cats. *shrugs* Just doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always
> >> possible that I'm wrong.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > yes just looked again... see what you mean, did the parent see the
> > cat do it?
> >
> >
>
> What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the mother
> of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.

No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!


well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
babies wear scratch mittens!

I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 02:54 PM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>
>
> > "Kalyahna" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Katra" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Personally, I hate declawing and don't think it should be done
> >> > for no valid reason, but I agree with the above. Sometimes it's
> >> > necessary. See here for a valid reason to declaw. With this
> >> > cat, it was a choice between declawing him or getting rid of
> >> > him:
> >> >
> >> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/Dyson1yScrtch.jpg
> >> >
> >> > It was not his first offense, but it was the one that nearly
> >> > did some serious damage.
> >> >
> >> > What would *you* do????
> >>
> >> I don't know about anyone else, but that looks awfully wide and
> >> blunt to
> > be
> >> cat claws. I get scratches like those at work all the time, and
> >> the ones that look like those in the picture are from dogs, not
> >> cats. *shrugs* Just doesn't look cat-like, to me. It's always
> >> possible that I'm wrong.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > yes just looked again... see what you mean, did the parent see the
> > cat do it?
> >
> >
>
> What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the mother
> of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.

No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!


well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
babies wear scratch mittens!

I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK

kaeli
August 15th 03, 02:57 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> I have some cats that you can pick up by the tail and all they will do
> is whine a bit. They won't scratch or bite, even with rough handling.
>

How would you know? Did you pick one up by the tail?
If so, you shouldn't even have cats. That's abuse.
If not, please don't try. It isn't nice to the cat. And I would hope the
cat would rip off your fingers for it if you did try.

Cats shouldn't NEED to tolerate "rough handling".

Teach the kid some goddamn manners.
And if the adults think animals should tolerate abuse, teach them some,
too.

> This cat that did this is a terribly BITCHY cat! He will growl and swipe
> at strangers and has scratched ME for trying to pet him. He is way too
> eager to use his claws for little provocation.
>

So you took them away and now he gets to bite.
Nice.

> I don't care if the baby pulled his fur, tail or ears.

You don't?
Then you shouldn't have kids and pets, either. Actually, you mentioned
you don't have kids. If you were to have kids, would you let them harm
an animal and expect the animal to just take it? Please. If so, please
rehome your pets when you have kids. They deserve to be treated better
than that.

Children (and adults) should respect animals. Period.
Don't hurt a pet and expect it not to defend itself.

I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 02:57 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> I have some cats that you can pick up by the tail and all they will do
> is whine a bit. They won't scratch or bite, even with rough handling.
>

How would you know? Did you pick one up by the tail?
If so, you shouldn't even have cats. That's abuse.
If not, please don't try. It isn't nice to the cat. And I would hope the
cat would rip off your fingers for it if you did try.

Cats shouldn't NEED to tolerate "rough handling".

Teach the kid some goddamn manners.
And if the adults think animals should tolerate abuse, teach them some,
too.

> This cat that did this is a terribly BITCHY cat! He will growl and swipe
> at strangers and has scratched ME for trying to pet him. He is way too
> eager to use his claws for little provocation.
>

So you took them away and now he gets to bite.
Nice.

> I don't care if the baby pulled his fur, tail or ears.

You don't?
Then you shouldn't have kids and pets, either. Actually, you mentioned
you don't have kids. If you were to have kids, would you let them harm
an animal and expect the animal to just take it? Please. If so, please
rehome your pets when you have kids. They deserve to be treated better
than that.

Children (and adults) should respect animals. Period.
Don't hurt a pet and expect it not to defend itself.

I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 03:04 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> > Very last resort: rehome to a home with no children.
>
> In theory, that's great, but that's not what happens. There aren't
> enough homes. Do you know how hard it is finding someone to take an
> adult cat?
>

Why, yes, I volunteer at a shelter. Funny how many declaws we have, too.

There is no justification or rationalization for mutilation.

If she wanted one with no claws, there are plenty of already declawed
cats at the shelter. She should have adopted one of those rather than
mutilate yet another animal that is already aggressive and will now
probably become a biter. Not all declawed cats bite, of course, and I'm
not saying they do. An animal that is already aggressive will find a way
to continue to be so. He doesn't have claws. He now has only teeth. Good
luck.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 03:04 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> > Very last resort: rehome to a home with no children.
>
> In theory, that's great, but that's not what happens. There aren't
> enough homes. Do you know how hard it is finding someone to take an
> adult cat?
>

Why, yes, I volunteer at a shelter. Funny how many declaws we have, too.

There is no justification or rationalization for mutilation.

If she wanted one with no claws, there are plenty of already declawed
cats at the shelter. She should have adopted one of those rather than
mutilate yet another animal that is already aggressive and will now
probably become a biter. Not all declawed cats bite, of course, and I'm
not saying they do. An animal that is already aggressive will find a way
to continue to be so. He doesn't have claws. He now has only teeth. Good
luck.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 03:10 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
>
> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't let
> their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't have any kids
> of her own.
>

If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it is
with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess what? We
all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And we don't
leave small children with grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!

I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt pets, as
well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to be harmed.
You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant parenting.
Congrats.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 03:10 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
>
> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't let
> their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't have any kids
> of her own.
>

If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it is
with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess what? We
all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And we don't
leave small children with grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!

I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt pets, as
well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to be harmed.
You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant parenting.
Congrats.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 03:14 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
...

> "Cathouse" > wrote in message

> > What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the mother
> > of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.
>
> No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!

It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both, you
have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.


> well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
> themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
> babies wear scratch mittens!
>
> I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK

Me, too! I was just thinking, if I ever did go back to US, I'd make sure to
find a vet who chose not to declaw, because then I'd know that they were
someone who would truly have the best interest of my pet at heart, rather
than money being their top priority. I never thought to ask whether he
declaws (though I'd be surprised if he did), but the vet who put down
Precious for my mom when his FLV became too advanced actually sent a
condolance card to my mom, and made a donation to a pet charity in Precious'
name. Now *there's* a caring vet! :)

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 03:14 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
...

> "Cathouse" > wrote in message

> > What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the mother
> > of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.
>
> No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!

It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both, you
have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.


> well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
> themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
> babies wear scratch mittens!
>
> I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK

Me, too! I was just thinking, if I ever did go back to US, I'd make sure to
find a vet who chose not to declaw, because then I'd know that they were
someone who would truly have the best interest of my pet at heart, rather
than money being their top priority. I never thought to ask whether he
declaws (though I'd be surprised if he did), but the vet who put down
Precious for my mom when his FLV became too advanced actually sent a
condolance card to my mom, and made a donation to a pet charity in Precious'
name. Now *there's* a caring vet! :)

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 03:21 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...

<many well-made points snipped>

> I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.

Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important and
precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
lesson.... :\

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 03:21 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...

<many well-made points snipped>

> I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.

Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important and
precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
lesson.... :\

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:47 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <many well-made points snipped>
>
> > I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> > scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.
>
> Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important
and
> precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
> respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
> lesson.... :\
>
> Ann

My oldest two kids now 22 and 19 always said "Mum loves her pets more than
us"
funny enough they both have pets of their own now, and my daughter is
pregnant due in Jan next year and she has a 6 month old kitten, she got it
after she found out she was pregnant, so they could grow up together, she
believe every child should have a pet, to care and love, as she always did.
I can remember as a child telling our dog and cats all my secrets, I really
believe they understood me, I was 14 when our dog died, it was like losing
my best friend, sister, my parents got her when I was 2.
children should be encouraged to respect and love animals :-)

--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:47 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <many well-made points snipped>
>
> > I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> > scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.
>
> Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important
and
> precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
> respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
> lesson.... :\
>
> Ann

My oldest two kids now 22 and 19 always said "Mum loves her pets more than
us"
funny enough they both have pets of their own now, and my daughter is
pregnant due in Jan next year and she has a 6 month old kitten, she got it
after she found out she was pregnant, so they could grow up together, she
believe every child should have a pet, to care and love, as she always did.
I can remember as a child telling our dog and cats all my secrets, I really
believe they understood me, I was 14 when our dog died, it was like losing
my best friend, sister, my parents got her when I was 2.
children should be encouraged to respect and love animals :-)

--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:53 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> > >
> >
> > Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't let
> > their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't have any kids
> > of her own.
> >
>
> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
> would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it is
> with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess what? We
> all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And we don't
> leave small children with grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!
>
yes I agree my family have had pets for many generations.... can still hear
my Grandad say well she must of biting you for a reason to my cousins LOL
then heard my parents say it and then me :-)
but we are real animal lovers, and I dare say if cats spoke our laungage you
would here! "leave me alone, your hurting me"! "don't pull my whiskers"

> I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt pets, as
> well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to be harmed.
> You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant parenting.
> Congrats.
>


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:53 PM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> > >
> >
> > Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't let
> > their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't have any kids
> > of her own.
> >
>
> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
> would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it is
> with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess what? We
> all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And we don't
> leave small children with grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!
>
yes I agree my family have had pets for many generations.... can still hear
my Grandad say well she must of biting you for a reason to my cousins LOL
then heard my parents say it and then me :-)
but we are real animal lovers, and I dare say if cats spoke our laungage you
would here! "leave me alone, your hurting me"! "don't pull my whiskers"

> I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt pets, as
> well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to be harmed.
> You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant parenting.
> Congrats.
>


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:59 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > "Cathouse" > wrote in message
>
> > > What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the
mother
> > > of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.
> >
> > No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!
>
> It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
> feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
> cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both,
you
> have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.
>

I could not be without cats, they are as important to me as my children, our
cats are part of our family.

> > well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
> > themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
> > babies wear scratch mittens!
> >
> > I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK
>
> Me, too! I was just thinking, if I ever did go back to US, I'd make sure
to
> find a vet who chose not to declaw, because then I'd know that they were
> someone who would truly have the best interest of my pet at heart, rather
> than money being their top priority. I never thought to ask whether he
> declaws (though I'd be surprised if he did), but the vet who put down
> Precious for my mom when his FLV became too advanced actually sent a
> condolance card to my mom, and made a donation to a pet charity in
Precious'
> name. Now *there's* a caring vet! :)
>
> Ann
that's really nice :-) not many vets out there who are like that Ann


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 15th 03, 03:59 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > "Cathouse" > wrote in message
>
> > > What else do you think did it? Next, you'll all be accusing the
mother
> > > of framing the cat just so she could get it declawed.
> >
> > No not a tall, that's still no excuse to declaw the cat!
>
> It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
> feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
> cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both,
you
> have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.
>

I could not be without cats, they are as important to me as my children, our
cats are part of our family.

> > well being a Mother of 3 children, I do know babies and children scratch
> > themselves on things! eg Toys, their own finger nails, hence why little
> > babies wear scratch mittens!
> >
> > I am so glad Declawing is banned in the UK
>
> Me, too! I was just thinking, if I ever did go back to US, I'd make sure
to
> find a vet who chose not to declaw, because then I'd know that they were
> someone who would truly have the best interest of my pet at heart, rather
> than money being their top priority. I never thought to ask whether he
> declaws (though I'd be surprised if he did), but the vet who put down
> Precious for my mom when his FLV became too advanced actually sent a
> condolance card to my mom, and made a donation to a pet charity in
Precious'
> name. Now *there's* a caring vet! :)
>
> Ann
that's really nice :-) not many vets out there who are like that Ann


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

Katra
August 15th 03, 04:18 PM
*~*SooZy*~* wrote:
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "kaeli" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <many well-made points snipped>
> >
> > > I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> > > scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.
> >
> > Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important
> and
> > precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
> > respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
> > lesson.... :\
> >
> > Ann
>
> My oldest two kids now 22 and 19 always said "Mum loves her pets more than
> us"
> funny enough they both have pets of their own now, and my daughter is
> pregnant due in Jan next year and she has a 6 month old kitten, she got it
> after she found out she was pregnant, so they could grow up together, she
> believe every child should have a pet, to care and love, as she always did.
> I can remember as a child telling our dog and cats all my secrets, I really
> believe they understood me, I was 14 when our dog died, it was like losing
> my best friend, sister, my parents got her when I was 2.
> children should be encouraged to respect and love animals :-)
>
> --
> Luv'n'Stuff
> *~*SooZy*~*

Yes, they should, but a 12 to 14 month old baby is NOT old enough to be
told "no" so has to be protected from overly aggressive cats.

I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger declawed.
This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe more than any cat
I've ever known... It will also protect the adults.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

Katra
August 15th 03, 04:18 PM
*~*SooZy*~* wrote:
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "kaeli" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <many well-made points snipped>
> >
> > > I had pets as a child. I learned to be gentle because if I wasn't, I got
> > > scratched by the cat and yelled at by my Mom. Go figure.
> >
> > Amen, Kaeli. I agree with everything you said; yes, kids are important
> and
> > precious, but they need to be taught that all life is precious, and to
> > respect it. Unfortunately, some of the parents haven't even learned this
> > lesson.... :\
> >
> > Ann
>
> My oldest two kids now 22 and 19 always said "Mum loves her pets more than
> us"
> funny enough they both have pets of their own now, and my daughter is
> pregnant due in Jan next year and she has a 6 month old kitten, she got it
> after she found out she was pregnant, so they could grow up together, she
> believe every child should have a pet, to care and love, as she always did.
> I can remember as a child telling our dog and cats all my secrets, I really
> believe they understood me, I was 14 when our dog died, it was like losing
> my best friend, sister, my parents got her when I was 2.
> children should be encouraged to respect and love animals :-)
>
> --
> Luv'n'Stuff
> *~*SooZy*~*

Yes, they should, but a 12 to 14 month old baby is NOT old enough to be
told "no" so has to be protected from overly aggressive cats.

I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger declawed.
This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe more than any cat
I've ever known... It will also protect the adults.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

kaeli
August 15th 03, 04:50 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
> feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
> cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both, you
> have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.
>

Thank you, thank you, thank you and AMEN.

THAT is really the gist of this entire conversation.

(and IIRC, the OP came here and asked "what would you have done" and is
now unhappy with all the replies...)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 04:50 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> It's nice to hear a mother saying that, so they can't just accuse us of
> feeling that way because we have no children. :) Because it's not to say
> cats are more important than children, but if you're going to have both, you
> have to take the safety and well-being of both into consideration.
>

Thank you, thank you, thank you and AMEN.

THAT is really the gist of this entire conversation.

(and IIRC, the OP came here and asked "what would you have done" and is
now unhappy with all the replies...)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 05:03 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
...

> There is a leaflet on this link that may be of some help to your sister, I
> haven't really read it just browsed....

I thought this quote from that leaflet was particularly relevant:

"If you are having persistent problems of aggression of any type with your
cat, especially if
targeted towards people or children, you may wish to talk to The Blue Cross
or your vet
about referral to a feline behaviourist."

Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats the
symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more problems now that
it's declawed, and possibly become even more aggressive. And if that turns
out to be the case, I shudder to contemplate its fate....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 15th 03, 05:03 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
...

> There is a leaflet on this link that may be of some help to your sister, I
> haven't really read it just browsed....

I thought this quote from that leaflet was particularly relevant:

"If you are having persistent problems of aggression of any type with your
cat, especially if
targeted towards people or children, you may wish to talk to The Blue Cross
or your vet
about referral to a feline behaviourist."

Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats the
symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more problems now that
it's declawed, and possibly become even more aggressive. And if that turns
out to be the case, I shudder to contemplate its fate....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

kaeli
August 15th 03, 08:42 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
>
> No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
>

A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
(than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.

Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.


-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 15th 03, 08:42 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
>
> No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
>

A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
(than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.

Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.


-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Cheryl
August 15th 03, 11:51 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
:

> http://www.allaboutpets.org.uk/catintro.html Cat 16 Aggressive cats

Thanks for posting that. It may be of some help with *my* aggressive cat.
:) (Shamrock, da biter)

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 15th 03, 11:51 PM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
:

> http://www.allaboutpets.org.uk/catintro.html Cat 16 Aggressive cats

Thanks for posting that. It may be of some help with *my* aggressive cat.
:) (Shamrock, da biter)

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

*~*SooZy*~*
August 16th 03, 08:55 AM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> > >
> > > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
> >
> > No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
> >
>
> A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
> (than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
> the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
> the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
> actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
> Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.
>
> Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
> do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> ~kaeli~
well said Kaeli
People don't research the effects declawing can do... they probably didn't
even know they cats walk on their toes with the soles off the ground.
I really wish people would read and learn about their pets! although we call
our cats our babies, at the end of the day they are animals and should be
respected as such.

why do they think UK banned declawing???????? don't they ever read why?


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 16th 03, 08:55 AM
"kaeli" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> > >
> > > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
> >
> > No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
> >
>
> A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
> (than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
> the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
> the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
> actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
> Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.
>
> Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
> do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> ~kaeli~
well said Kaeli
People don't research the effects declawing can do... they probably didn't
even know they cats walk on their toes with the soles off the ground.
I really wish people would read and learn about their pets! although we call
our cats our babies, at the end of the day they are animals and should be
respected as such.

why do they think UK banned declawing???????? don't they ever read why?


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 03:42 PM
Sherry wrote:
>> I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger
>> declawed.
>> This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe more than any
>> cat I've ever known... It will also protect the adults.
>>
>> K.
>
> "Protecting the adults." Yeah. You're doing more dancing than Michael
> Jackson now. And the more you post, the more it becomes apparent you,
> or your family, should never have cats at all. Twenty cats on a back
> porch does not a rescuer make. You don't understand cats. You don't
> seem to have much sense *or** compassion for the species at all. The
> defanging remark you make was the icing on the cake. You're painting
> a picture and expecting us to believe this cat is comparable to a
> bobcat or something. This poor cat is, in my opinion, probably
> traumatized and abused, and protecting itself.

That's what I was thinking. And again, I wouldn't let a child of that age
play with a *mellow* cat unsupervised, lest it pull its tail or fur and the
cat lash out in pain - which is something even people do reflexively
sometimes without meaning to - so why was a cat already known to be
agressive allowed anywhere *near* enough to the child to do that? Not to
mention, as I've said before, because the owner apparently didn't bother to
try and speak to the vet or a behaviorist about the underlying cause (at
least, nothing was said about them ever having sought alternatives to the
'easy answer' of declawing), the cat will still be aggressive, probably even
more so, only will now likely resort to teeth instead of claws.

You seem not to understand the ramifications when you say the surgery will
not matter to a cat kept indoors; it affects the cat's ability to walk
comfortably, without muscle aches, and can often cause muscle atrophy and
skeletal problems, not to mention psychological trauma to the animal. Your
saying this cat 'deserved' to be declawed shows an attitude of vengance that
is inappropriate towards an animal that cannot express it's unhappiness in
any other way. If you or your sister cared enough to try and find out why
the cat had been so agitated for so long, perhaps you would have a mellower
cat, and an unwounded child in the bargain.

In any case, declawing an agressive cat is like taking asprin for a brain
tumor; it may temporarily get rid of the headache, but does nothing to
remove the source of the problem. If my cat was acting like that, I would
do everything I could to find out why and insure that the cat be somehow
made to feel comfortable and content, so it wouldn't need to be bitchy, and
I wouldn't need to get bitchy back, and do anything to harm it. If your kid
was acting out, you wouldn't just chain them in their room, you would get
them some counselling, preferably family counselling together, talk to them,
find out why they were so unhappy (at least if you were a decent parent you
would). Just getting ****y and punishing them wouldn't improve the
situation, and it doesn't work for cats, either. They are viable, sentient,
feeling beings just like us, and don't deserve to be treated like monsters
when they're have problems.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 03:42 PM
Sherry wrote:
>> I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger
>> declawed.
>> This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe more than any
>> cat I've ever known... It will also protect the adults.
>>
>> K.
>
> "Protecting the adults." Yeah. You're doing more dancing than Michael
> Jackson now. And the more you post, the more it becomes apparent you,
> or your family, should never have cats at all. Twenty cats on a back
> porch does not a rescuer make. You don't understand cats. You don't
> seem to have much sense *or** compassion for the species at all. The
> defanging remark you make was the icing on the cake. You're painting
> a picture and expecting us to believe this cat is comparable to a
> bobcat or something. This poor cat is, in my opinion, probably
> traumatized and abused, and protecting itself.

That's what I was thinking. And again, I wouldn't let a child of that age
play with a *mellow* cat unsupervised, lest it pull its tail or fur and the
cat lash out in pain - which is something even people do reflexively
sometimes without meaning to - so why was a cat already known to be
agressive allowed anywhere *near* enough to the child to do that? Not to
mention, as I've said before, because the owner apparently didn't bother to
try and speak to the vet or a behaviorist about the underlying cause (at
least, nothing was said about them ever having sought alternatives to the
'easy answer' of declawing), the cat will still be aggressive, probably even
more so, only will now likely resort to teeth instead of claws.

You seem not to understand the ramifications when you say the surgery will
not matter to a cat kept indoors; it affects the cat's ability to walk
comfortably, without muscle aches, and can often cause muscle atrophy and
skeletal problems, not to mention psychological trauma to the animal. Your
saying this cat 'deserved' to be declawed shows an attitude of vengance that
is inappropriate towards an animal that cannot express it's unhappiness in
any other way. If you or your sister cared enough to try and find out why
the cat had been so agitated for so long, perhaps you would have a mellower
cat, and an unwounded child in the bargain.

In any case, declawing an agressive cat is like taking asprin for a brain
tumor; it may temporarily get rid of the headache, but does nothing to
remove the source of the problem. If my cat was acting like that, I would
do everything I could to find out why and insure that the cat be somehow
made to feel comfortable and content, so it wouldn't need to be bitchy, and
I wouldn't need to get bitchy back, and do anything to harm it. If your kid
was acting out, you wouldn't just chain them in their room, you would get
them some counselling, preferably family counselling together, talk to them,
find out why they were so unhappy (at least if you were a decent parent you
would). Just getting ****y and punishing them wouldn't improve the
situation, and it doesn't work for cats, either. They are viable, sentient,
feeling beings just like us, and don't deserve to be treated like monsters
when they're have problems.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:37 PM
Cathouse wrote:
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>

>> they are out there. And if there isn't one near you, there
>> are often cat lovers who will take in a problem cat rather than
>> have it abandoned in a shelter.
>
> There are? You be sure and send Katra your address so she can ship
> this "problem cat" to you. You're a cat lover, right? You won't mind
> taking in another then.

No, not at all. If she wants to ship him to UK, I'd be happy to take him
in.

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:37 PM
Cathouse wrote:
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>

>> they are out there. And if there isn't one near you, there
>> are often cat lovers who will take in a problem cat rather than
>> have it abandoned in a shelter.
>
> There are? You be sure and send Katra your address so she can ship
> this "problem cat" to you. You're a cat lover, right? You won't mind
> taking in another then.

No, not at all. If she wants to ship him to UK, I'd be happy to take him
in.

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:40 PM
Cathouse wrote:

>> I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
>> pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
>> be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
>> parenting. Congrats.
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."

That's crap. She said, "If the kid hurt the dog...." If you have kids and
animals, and you allow them together unsupervised, than *you* are the
problem, not the animal. It's a natural reaction to lash out when hurt. I
took a mouse away from the cat, the mouse bit me, and, with no control over
my reflexes, I accidentally flung it across the room (it was subsequently
rescued and released). I can't see why you expect an animal to react
differently to being hurt by a human.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:40 PM
Cathouse wrote:

>> I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
>> pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
>> be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
>> parenting. Congrats.
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."

That's crap. She said, "If the kid hurt the dog...." If you have kids and
animals, and you allow them together unsupervised, than *you* are the
problem, not the animal. It's a natural reaction to lash out when hurt. I
took a mouse away from the cat, the mouse bit me, and, with no control over
my reflexes, I accidentally flung it across the room (it was subsequently
rescued and released). I can't see why you expect an animal to react
differently to being hurt by a human.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:41 PM
Cathouse wrote:
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>

>> Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats
>> the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more
>> problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become even more
>> aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I shudder to
>> contemplate its fate....
>
> And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?

Did she even look for one? Did she read a book? Research on the 'Net? As
friends, newsgroups, vet for advice? If so, I think it's very possible she
would have come up with a better answer than declawing.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 06:41 PM
Cathouse wrote:
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>

>> Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats
>> the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more
>> problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become even more
>> aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I shudder to
>> contemplate its fate....
>
> And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?

Did she even look for one? Did she read a book? Research on the 'Net? As
friends, newsgroups, vet for advice? If so, I think it's very possible she
would have come up with a better answer than declawing.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

m. L. Briggs
August 17th 03, 06:59 PM
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:25:25 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
> wrote:

>"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
>
>> You forgot:
>
><list of countries snipped>
>
>That's your argument? Nothing to say on the article I shared? No sources
>for your claims? I'm still not convinced.
>
>
>"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
>
>> No one is arguing for declawing cats as a matter of course in the
>> keeping of them. It's an argument about access to professional, safe,
>> and legal procedure when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken.
>> It these sweeping generalizations that turn people off to your point of
>> view.
>
>Ur, Brandy darling....you were *indeed* arguing for declawing cats as a
>matter of course for keeping them. Say you:
>
>"This is the first time i've declawed a cat and for our relationship is was
>necessary."
>
>I highly doubt other efforts had failed and could not be undertaken, unless
>you mean you tried to train your cat to use the scratching post and couldn't
>do it the first day. However, if you'd have taken even a cursory look at
>the links I provided, you will see that even in the countries declawing is
>banned, there *is* still access to a professional safe and legal procedure
>when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken, so no one who's cat has a
>medically necessary reason for being declawed need resort to a back alley
>chop job.
>
>Feel better now?
>
>Ann



I have not read all of the posts, but I wonder if anyone has heard of
Soft Paws? MLB

m. L. Briggs
August 17th 03, 06:59 PM
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:25:25 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
> wrote:

>"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
>
>> You forgot:
>
><list of countries snipped>
>
>That's your argument? Nothing to say on the article I shared? No sources
>for your claims? I'm still not convinced.
>
>
>"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message
...
>
>> No one is arguing for declawing cats as a matter of course in the
>> keeping of them. It's an argument about access to professional, safe,
>> and legal procedure when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken.
>> It these sweeping generalizations that turn people off to your point of
>> view.
>
>Ur, Brandy darling....you were *indeed* arguing for declawing cats as a
>matter of course for keeping them. Say you:
>
>"This is the first time i've declawed a cat and for our relationship is was
>necessary."
>
>I highly doubt other efforts had failed and could not be undertaken, unless
>you mean you tried to train your cat to use the scratching post and couldn't
>do it the first day. However, if you'd have taken even a cursory look at
>the links I provided, you will see that even in the countries declawing is
>banned, there *is* still access to a professional safe and legal procedure
>when other efforts fail or cannot be undertaken, so no one who's cat has a
>medically necessary reason for being declawed need resort to a back alley
>chop job.
>
>Feel better now?
>
>Ann



I have not read all of the posts, but I wonder if anyone has heard of
Soft Paws? MLB

Katra
August 17th 03, 07:18 PM
Cathouse wrote:
>
> kaeli > wrote in
>
>
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >> >
> >>
> >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> >> have any kids of her own.
> >>
> >
> > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> > kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> > and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> > Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> > hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> > around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >
> > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
> > be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> > parenting. Congrats.
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."

Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.

As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch", they
have no idea what they are talking about...

That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to re-mortage my
house to do it.

How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???

They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.

**** them.

Katra

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

Katra
August 17th 03, 07:18 PM
Cathouse wrote:
>
> kaeli > wrote in
>
>
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> >> >
> >>
> >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> >> have any kids of her own.
> >>
> >
> > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> > kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> > and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> > Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> > hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> > around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >
> > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
> > be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> > parenting. Congrats.
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."

Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.

As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch", they
have no idea what they are talking about...

That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to re-mortage my
house to do it.

How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???

They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.

**** them.

Katra

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:30 PM
bewtifulfreak wrote:
> Cathouse wrote:
>> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>>
>
>>> they are out there. And if there isn't one near you, there
>>> are often cat lovers who will take in a problem cat rather than
>>> have it abandoned in a shelter.
>>
>> There are? You be sure and send Katra your address so she can ship
>> this "problem cat" to you. You're a cat lover, right? You won't
>> mind taking in another then.
>
> No, not at all. If she wants to ship him to UK, I'd be happy to take
> him in.

Besides which, the point is: did she even try? Did she try to find out what
might be causing the cat's behavior so it could possibly be resolved, did
she try to find it a new home for it, did she try *anything* before just
deciding that declawing was the easy answer to her problem? No, I *don't*
know, but from the attitude her sister expressed, that this cat 'deserved'
to be declawed, like it was willfully naughty and should therefore be
punished, I rather doubt she considered any action that took into account
that maybe she wasn't the only one with a problem, that perhaps the cat was
unhappy about something as well, and possibly a solution that suited both
could be found....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:30 PM
bewtifulfreak wrote:
> Cathouse wrote:
>> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>>
>
>>> they are out there. And if there isn't one near you, there
>>> are often cat lovers who will take in a problem cat rather than
>>> have it abandoned in a shelter.
>>
>> There are? You be sure and send Katra your address so she can ship
>> this "problem cat" to you. You're a cat lover, right? You won't
>> mind taking in another then.
>
> No, not at all. If she wants to ship him to UK, I'd be happy to take
> him in.

Besides which, the point is: did she even try? Did she try to find out what
might be causing the cat's behavior so it could possibly be resolved, did
she try to find it a new home for it, did she try *anything* before just
deciding that declawing was the easy answer to her problem? No, I *don't*
know, but from the attitude her sister expressed, that this cat 'deserved'
to be declawed, like it was willfully naughty and should therefore be
punished, I rather doubt she considered any action that took into account
that maybe she wasn't the only one with a problem, that perhaps the cat was
unhappy about something as well, and possibly a solution that suited both
could be found....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:40 PM
Katra wrote:

>> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
>> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
>> face in the dog's mouth."
>
> Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.

Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:40 PM
Katra wrote:

>> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
>> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
>> face in the dog's mouth."
>
> Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.

Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:55 PM
kaeli wrote:

> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
> would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it
> is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess
> what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And
> we don't leave small children with grabby hands be around pets
> unsupervised!!!!!

Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive to an
animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all 'psycho' to
discipline the child; children have to learn that there are consequences for
hurting others, including being hurt themselves. Most animals won't do
serious harm unless seriously hurt, so the child would probably just have a
sore spot to show for their cruelty. It is totally unreasonable to expect
an animal not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if the dog
was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with no provocation at
all, that would be a different circumstance altogether.

As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will not leave
a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there should be no
opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet unless the adult allows it
to happen.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 17th 03, 07:55 PM
kaeli wrote:

> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the kid
> would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up, and it
> is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids. Guess
> what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get hurt. And
> we don't leave small children with grabby hands be around pets
> unsupervised!!!!!

Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive to an
animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all 'psycho' to
discipline the child; children have to learn that there are consequences for
hurting others, including being hurt themselves. Most animals won't do
serious harm unless seriously hurt, so the child would probably just have a
sore spot to show for their cruelty. It is totally unreasonable to expect
an animal not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if the dog
was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with no provocation at
all, that would be a different circumstance altogether.

As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will not leave
a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there should be no
opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet unless the adult allows it
to happen.

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 10:55 PM
In ,
Cathouse > grunted:
> Katra > wrote in
>

>> **** them.
>
> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.

We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you say
you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the day
it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that matter.
People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you need education
and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it? Good.

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 10:55 PM
In ,
Cathouse > grunted:
> Katra > wrote in
>

>> **** them.
>
> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.

We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you say
you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the day
it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that matter.
People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you need education
and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it? Good.

Katra
August 17th 03, 11:12 PM
Cathouse wrote:
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>
>
> > kaeli wrote:
> >
> >> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> >> kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> >> and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> >> Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> >> hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> >> around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >
> > Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive
> > to an animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all
> > 'psycho' to discipline the child; children have to learn that
> > there are consequences for hurting others, including being hurt
> > themselves.
>
> The dog shouldn't be the disciplinarian in this picture. By letting it
> bite the child, that's exactly what you're doing.
>
> >Most animals won't do serious harm unless seriously
> > hurt, so the child would probably just have a sore spot to show
> > for their cruelty.
>
> Wrong. Most kids get bit in the face. They're just the right heighth
> for that.
>
> >It is totally unreasonable to expect an animal
> > not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
> > when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if
> > the dog was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with
> > no provocation at all, that would be a different circumstance
> > altogether.
>
> Animals react differently than humans in many situations. It's not
> unreasonable to expect them to control their actions. The dog can
> growl, yelp, or walk away. They should never be allowed to bite.
>
> >
> > As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will
> > not leave a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there
> > should be no opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet
> > unless the adult allows it to happen.
>
> It only takes a second.

My point exactly...

I questioned sis' as to how this happened...

The baby has a section of the living room that is baby proofed, and
confined by a large, sectional baby corral. Similar to a puppy
enclosure. They are available from babiesR'us if any one is interested.
;-) Playpens are too small and cruel to children.

The cat jumped into the corral, baby reached out to pet/grab kitty and
kitty scratched baby across the eye.

Mom was in the kitchen for a few minutes preparing a bottle.

It is NOT possible to supervise 24/7 and accidents happen.

And it only takes a second.

Since this cat had a long history of abusing claws, declawing was
considered better than euthanasia, or attempting to rehome a troublesome cat.
She actually offered it to me if her husband was willing. He was not and
neither was I. My pride of kitties is pretty stable right now and I did
not want to take on a possible disrupter.

Give it a rest people. This was the best solution for all concerned.
Anyone that does not concur is a candidate for PETA as far as I am
concerned. You are NUTS if you consider the welfare of one cat to come
over that of a human child!!!!

Ask a social worker what the state and CPS stance would have been!

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

Katra
August 17th 03, 11:12 PM
Cathouse wrote:
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>
>
> > kaeli wrote:
> >
> >> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> >> kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> >> and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> >> Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> >> hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> >> around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >
> > Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive
> > to an animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all
> > 'psycho' to discipline the child; children have to learn that
> > there are consequences for hurting others, including being hurt
> > themselves.
>
> The dog shouldn't be the disciplinarian in this picture. By letting it
> bite the child, that's exactly what you're doing.
>
> >Most animals won't do serious harm unless seriously
> > hurt, so the child would probably just have a sore spot to show
> > for their cruelty.
>
> Wrong. Most kids get bit in the face. They're just the right heighth
> for that.
>
> >It is totally unreasonable to expect an animal
> > not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
> > when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if
> > the dog was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with
> > no provocation at all, that would be a different circumstance
> > altogether.
>
> Animals react differently than humans in many situations. It's not
> unreasonable to expect them to control their actions. The dog can
> growl, yelp, or walk away. They should never be allowed to bite.
>
> >
> > As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will
> > not leave a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there
> > should be no opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet
> > unless the adult allows it to happen.
>
> It only takes a second.

My point exactly...

I questioned sis' as to how this happened...

The baby has a section of the living room that is baby proofed, and
confined by a large, sectional baby corral. Similar to a puppy
enclosure. They are available from babiesR'us if any one is interested.
;-) Playpens are too small and cruel to children.

The cat jumped into the corral, baby reached out to pet/grab kitty and
kitty scratched baby across the eye.

Mom was in the kitchen for a few minutes preparing a bottle.

It is NOT possible to supervise 24/7 and accidents happen.

And it only takes a second.

Since this cat had a long history of abusing claws, declawing was
considered better than euthanasia, or attempting to rehome a troublesome cat.
She actually offered it to me if her husband was willing. He was not and
neither was I. My pride of kitties is pretty stable right now and I did
not want to take on a possible disrupter.

Give it a rest people. This was the best solution for all concerned.
Anyone that does not concur is a candidate for PETA as far as I am
concerned. You are NUTS if you consider the welfare of one cat to come
over that of a human child!!!!

Ask a social worker what the state and CPS stance would have been!

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

August 17th 03, 11:24 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Katra wrote:
>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
> >> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
> >> face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> > would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> > psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
> deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
> would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
> animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
> in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
> properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
> aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
> vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
> aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.
>
> Ann

Maybe we should just euthanize all animals with aggressive tendencies?
That would solve it all.

You are SUCH a clueless idiot!

K

August 17th 03, 11:24 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Katra wrote:
>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
> >> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
> >> face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> > would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> > psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
> deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
> would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
> animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
> in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
> properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
> aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
> vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
> aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.
>
> Ann

Maybe we should just euthanize all animals with aggressive tendencies?
That would solve it all.

You are SUCH a clueless idiot!

K

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 11:24 PM
In ,
Cathouse > composed with style:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in
>
>
>> In ,
>> Cathouse > grunted:
>>> Katra > wrote in
>>>
>>
>>>> **** them.
>>>
>>> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.
>>
>> We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you
>> say you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
>> inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
>> That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the
>> day it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that
>> matter. People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you
>> need education and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it?
>> Good.
>>
>
> You seem a little peeved. Maybe you should try turning your
> computer off for a bit.

Over you? Not likely honey. Over inhumane treatment to be allowed in
a so-called civilized society? You bet. I do my part to spread the
word. People who have some brains in their head usually change their
mind. It isn't too late for you. Have you always had a learning
disability? Maybe we should take another approach. Just asking.

PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 11:24 PM
In ,
Cathouse > composed with style:
> "Cheryl" > wrote in
>
>
>> In ,
>> Cathouse > grunted:
>>> Katra > wrote in
>>>
>>
>>>> **** them.
>>>
>>> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.
>>
>> We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you
>> say you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
>> inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
>> That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the
>> day it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that
>> matter. People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you
>> need education and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it?
>> Good.
>>
>
> You seem a little peeved. Maybe you should try turning your
> computer off for a bit.

Over you? Not likely honey. Over inhumane treatment to be allowed in
a so-called civilized society? You bet. I do my part to spread the
word. People who have some brains in their head usually change their
mind. It isn't too late for you. Have you always had a learning
disability? Maybe we should take another approach. Just asking.

PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.

August 17th 03, 11:33 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Cathouse wrote:
> > "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
> >
>
> >> Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats
> >> the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more
> >> problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become even more
> >> aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I shudder to
> >> contemplate its fate....
> >
> > And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?
>
> Did she even look for one? Did she read a book? Research on the 'Net? As
> friends, newsgroups, vet for advice? If so, I think it's very possible she
> would have come up with a better answer than declawing.
>
> Ann

This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.

She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
And scare mongers...

Yes, there are OCCASIONAL problems that occur from any SINGLE surgery,
but what are the odds? Few and far between. What are the complications
of spay surgeries? What are the alternatives?

Try doing some research on gall bladder surgery for humans...

I dare ANYONE on this list to start an anti-spay/neuter thread!

There are millions of declawed cats. Statistics spell limited problems,
and often the alternatives are far worse, like euthanasia.

Give me a friggin break already!

I still say that HUMAN welfare is more important than CAT welfare!
Especially when it comes to babies...

K.

August 17th 03, 11:33 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Cathouse wrote:
> > "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
> >
>
> >> Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only treats
> >> the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even have more
> >> problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become even more
> >> aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I shudder to
> >> contemplate its fate....
> >
> > And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?
>
> Did she even look for one? Did she read a book? Research on the 'Net? As
> friends, newsgroups, vet for advice? If so, I think it's very possible she
> would have come up with a better answer than declawing.
>
> Ann

This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.

She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
And scare mongers...

Yes, there are OCCASIONAL problems that occur from any SINGLE surgery,
but what are the odds? Few and far between. What are the complications
of spay surgeries? What are the alternatives?

Try doing some research on gall bladder surgery for humans...

I dare ANYONE on this list to start an anti-spay/neuter thread!

There are millions of declawed cats. Statistics spell limited problems,
and often the alternatives are far worse, like euthanasia.

Give me a friggin break already!

I still say that HUMAN welfare is more important than CAT welfare!
Especially when it comes to babies...

K.

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 11:49 PM
In ,
Cathouse > composed with style:
>
> And you prefer them to be dead rather than declawed.
>
Where did I ever state that? Msg-id please?

You know, you started out in this thread seemingly rational with your
own opinion. I thought, hmm... someone who can keep their head on the
wrong side of the declaw debate. It seems I "judged" you too quickly.
You've become full of **** and yourself and sunk to insults and trying
to suck up to anyone else who shares your views. Do you need to have
backups to relay your opinion, or can you come back down to reality
and discuss this rationally? If not, you're a lost cause.

Cheryl
August 17th 03, 11:49 PM
In ,
Cathouse > composed with style:
>
> And you prefer them to be dead rather than declawed.
>
Where did I ever state that? Msg-id please?

You know, you started out in this thread seemingly rational with your
own opinion. I thought, hmm... someone who can keep their head on the
wrong side of the declaw debate. It seems I "judged" you too quickly.
You've become full of **** and yourself and sunk to insults and trying
to suck up to anyone else who shares your views. Do you need to have
backups to relay your opinion, or can you come back down to reality
and discuss this rationally? If not, you're a lost cause.

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:02 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

>
> ps. Tell Stoogey I said "hi".
>

What does that mean? Are you stalking me?

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:02 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

>
> ps. Tell Stoogey I said "hi".
>

What does that mean? Are you stalking me?

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

August 18th 03, 12:05 AM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message >...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> > > >
> > > > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
> > >
> > > No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
> > >
> >
> > A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
> > (than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
> > the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
> > the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
> > actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
> > Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.
> >
> > Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
> > do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
> well said Kaeli
> People don't research the effects declawing can do... they probably didn't
> even know they cats walk on their toes with the soles off the ground.
> I really wish people would read and learn about their pets! although we call
> our cats our babies, at the end of the day they are animals and should be
> respected as such.
>
> why do they think UK banned declawing???????? don't they ever read why?

Probably for the same reason they outlawed guns...
They are a bunch of control freaks, and your country is headed
for either Anarchy or Dictatorship.

Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate in the UK is more than 3
times that in the USA?

But that is a whole 'nuter thread.... %^)

K.

August 18th 03, 12:05 AM
"*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message >...
> "kaeli" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > enlightened us with...
> > > >
> > > > Declawing is more akin to losing ones toes than ones nails.
> > >
> > > No it's not. We don't have retractable toes.
> > >
> >
> > A cat's toes do not retract. The joint moves in a different direction
> > (than a human's), retracting the claws into their sheaths. It is still
> > the removal of a bone with the cutting of the joint and is equivalent to
> > the removal of the last joint of a human finger or toe, except that cats
> > actually WALK on their toes. Humans walk on the soles of their feet.
> > Cats do not. Cats walk on their toes, with the "soles" off the ground.
> >
> > Let's cut off the ends of your toes and see if you can do ballet. We'll
> > do it painlessly with a laser. It won't hurt, I promise.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> > ~kaeli~
> well said Kaeli
> People don't research the effects declawing can do... they probably didn't
> even know they cats walk on their toes with the soles off the ground.
> I really wish people would read and learn about their pets! although we call
> our cats our babies, at the end of the day they are animals and should be
> respected as such.
>
> why do they think UK banned declawing???????? don't they ever read why?

Probably for the same reason they outlawed guns...
They are a bunch of control freaks, and your country is headed
for either Anarchy or Dictatorship.

Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate in the UK is more than 3
times that in the USA?

But that is a whole 'nuter thread.... %^)

K.

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:11 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

>>> And you prefer them to be dead rather than declawed.
>>>
>> Where did I ever state that? Msg-id please?
>
> So, you think declawing is ok in some circumstances, then.
>
Lack of msg-id noted; retract your ridiculous statement. Declawing is only
ok on claws that become infected or some other medical problem. Why do you
need to be repeatedly told this? You seem like a smartish dweeb, why do you
need this beat into your head?

>>
>> You know, you started out in this thread seemingly rational with
>> your own opinion. I thought, hmm... someone who can keep their
>> head on the wrong side of the declaw debate. It seems I "judged"
>> you too quickly. You've become full of **** and yourself and sunk
>> to insults and trying to suck up to anyone else who shares your
>> views. Do you need to have backups to relay your opinion, or can
>> you come back down to reality and discuss this rationally? If
>> not, you're a lost cause.
>
> I've done that already. I got tired of trying to be rational around so
> many stupid people.
>

Gee, that sounds familiar. <rolls eyes> So why not drop it already? Your
arguments are getting really stupid and if you only knew how foolish you
are appearing you'd change your ID again. Or at the very least, retire this
sock.


--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:11 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

>>> And you prefer them to be dead rather than declawed.
>>>
>> Where did I ever state that? Msg-id please?
>
> So, you think declawing is ok in some circumstances, then.
>
Lack of msg-id noted; retract your ridiculous statement. Declawing is only
ok on claws that become infected or some other medical problem. Why do you
need to be repeatedly told this? You seem like a smartish dweeb, why do you
need this beat into your head?

>>
>> You know, you started out in this thread seemingly rational with
>> your own opinion. I thought, hmm... someone who can keep their
>> head on the wrong side of the declaw debate. It seems I "judged"
>> you too quickly. You've become full of **** and yourself and sunk
>> to insults and trying to suck up to anyone else who shares your
>> views. Do you need to have backups to relay your opinion, or can
>> you come back down to reality and discuss this rationally? If
>> not, you're a lost cause.
>
> I've done that already. I got tired of trying to be rational around so
> many stupid people.
>

Gee, that sounds familiar. <rolls eyes> So why not drop it already? Your
arguments are getting really stupid and if you only knew how foolish you
are appearing you'd change your ID again. Or at the very least, retire this
sock.


--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:18 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

> Cheryl > wrote in
>
>
>> Cathouse > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> ps. Tell Stoogey I said "hi".
>>>
>>
>> What does that mean? Are you stalking me?
>>
>
> Wow. You really are a kook.

Name-calling doesn't help your case.
>
> Calm down. I just noticed your addy.
>
You really think you effect someone don't you. Calm down? OOOOOooookk. If
you're refering to Petitmorte, I could say hello for you but hell, you're a
sock so I wouldn't know who to sign it with. This just proves you're here
only to back up the porno bimbo. She really shouldn't enter into Usenet
debates if she can't handle herself on her own. Agreed? Right. What do you
get out of it? Boobie pics?

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:18 AM
Cathouse > wrote in
:

> Cheryl > wrote in
>
>
>> Cathouse > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> ps. Tell Stoogey I said "hi".
>>>
>>
>> What does that mean? Are you stalking me?
>>
>
> Wow. You really are a kook.

Name-calling doesn't help your case.
>
> Calm down. I just noticed your addy.
>
You really think you effect someone don't you. Calm down? OOOOOooookk. If
you're refering to Petitmorte, I could say hello for you but hell, you're a
sock so I wouldn't know who to sign it with. This just proves you're here
only to back up the porno bimbo. She really shouldn't enter into Usenet
debates if she can't handle herself on her own. Agreed? Right. What do you
get out of it? Boobie pics?

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

August 18th 03, 12:29 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Katra wrote:
>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
> >> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
> >> face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> > would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> > psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
> deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
> would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
> animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
> in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
> properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
> aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
> vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
> aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.
>
> Ann

I noted that you snipped the part of the post that said I spent
$16.000 to have a cat room built... and re-mortaged a PAID OFF house
to finance it for a bunch of cats.

Would you do the same you selfish bitch?

K.

August 18th 03, 12:29 AM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message >...
> Katra wrote:
>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get
> >> bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your
> >> face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> > would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> > psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> Well, anyone who would allow a child and a pet together unsupervised
> deserves to have CPS liberally involved in *their* lives, and anyone who
> would allow a child the opportunity to hurt an animal and then punish the
> animal for reacting deserves to have the Humane Society liberally involved
> in their lives. There's no way a child should get bitten by an animal if
> properly supervised by an adult. And if the animal is known to be
> aggressive, all the more reason it should be kept completely out of the
> vicinity of the child. Interesting that you still haven't mentioned why an
> aggressive cat was allowed anywhere near a baby's head.
>
> Ann

I noted that you snipped the part of the post that said I spent
$16.000 to have a cat room built... and re-mortaged a PAID OFF house
to finance it for a bunch of cats.

Would you do the same you selfish bitch?

K.

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:46 AM
) wrote in
om:

> I noted that you snipped the part of the post that said I spent
> $16.000 to have a cat room built... and re-mortaged a PAID OFF house
> to finance it for a bunch of cats.
>
Most of us noticed your sanctimonious, self-promoting posts about how much
money you spend on your cats. I'm sure a lot of us have similar stories. It
still doesn't negate your statements in this thread. Defang a cat. Declaw
your sisters cat. Spend thousands to let 20 cats spend their life in a
12X28 foot sun porch. Nope. You still don't sound like you care about those
20 cats and the one you had declawed. Isn't there a limit to how many
animals you can have in your TX town? Is Cats-haven Hobby Farm a registered
rescue group?

> Would you do the same you selfish bitch?
>

Tsk tsk.. name calling again.

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Cheryl
August 18th 03, 12:46 AM
) wrote in
om:

> I noted that you snipped the part of the post that said I spent
> $16.000 to have a cat room built... and re-mortaged a PAID OFF house
> to finance it for a bunch of cats.
>
Most of us noticed your sanctimonious, self-promoting posts about how much
money you spend on your cats. I'm sure a lot of us have similar stories. It
still doesn't negate your statements in this thread. Defang a cat. Declaw
your sisters cat. Spend thousands to let 20 cats spend their life in a
12X28 foot sun porch. Nope. You still don't sound like you care about those
20 cats and the one you had declawed. Isn't there a limit to how many
animals you can have in your TX town? Is Cats-haven Hobby Farm a registered
rescue group?

> Would you do the same you selfish bitch?
>

Tsk tsk.. name calling again.

--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Karen Chuplis
August 18th 03, 02:18 AM
in article , Katra at
wrote on 8/17/03 5:12 PM:

>
>
> Cathouse wrote:
>>
>> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>>
>>
>>> kaeli wrote:
>>>
>>>> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
>>>> kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
>>>> and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
>>>> Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
>>>> hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
>>>> around pets unsupervised!!!!!
>>>
>>> Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive
>>> to an animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all
>>> 'psycho' to discipline the child; children have to learn that
>>> there are consequences for hurting others, including being hurt
>>> themselves.
>>
>> The dog shouldn't be the disciplinarian in this picture. By letting it
>> bite the child, that's exactly what you're doing.
>>
>>> Most animals won't do serious harm unless seriously
>>> hurt, so the child would probably just have a sore spot to show
>>> for their cruelty.
>>
>> Wrong. Most kids get bit in the face. They're just the right heighth
>> for that.
>>
>>> It is totally unreasonable to expect an animal
>>> not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
>>> when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if
>>> the dog was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with
>>> no provocation at all, that would be a different circumstance
>>> altogether.
>>
>> Animals react differently than humans in many situations. It's not
>> unreasonable to expect them to control their actions. The dog can
>> growl, yelp, or walk away. They should never be allowed to bite.
>>
>>>
>>> As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will
>>> not leave a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there
>>> should be no opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet
>>> unless the adult allows it to happen.
>>
>> It only takes a second.
>
> My point exactly...
>
> I questioned sis' as to how this happened...
>
> The baby has a section of the living room that is baby proofed, and
> confined by a large, sectional baby corral. Similar to a puppy
> enclosure. They are available from babiesR'us if any one is interested.
> ;-) Playpens are too small and cruel to children.
>
> The cat jumped into the corral, baby reached out to pet/grab kitty and
> kitty scratched baby across the eye.
>
> Mom was in the kitchen for a few minutes preparing a bottle.
>
> It is NOT possible to supervise 24/7 and accidents happen.
>
> And it only takes a second.
>
> Since this cat had a long history of abusing claws, declawing was
> considered better than euthanasia, or attempting to rehome a troublesome cat.
> She actually offered it to me if her husband was willing. He was not and
> neither was I. My pride of kitties is pretty stable right now and I did
> not want to take on a possible disrupter.
>
> Give it a rest people. This was the best solution for all concerned.
> Anyone that does not concur is a candidate for PETA as far as I am
> concerned. You are NUTS if you consider the welfare of one cat to come
> over that of a human child!!!!
>
> Ask a social worker what the state and CPS stance would have been!
>
> K.

Did you even *think* to try Soft Paws? It was NOT the best solution no
matter how many times you say it.

Karen

Karen Chuplis
August 18th 03, 02:18 AM
in article , Katra at
wrote on 8/17/03 5:12 PM:

>
>
> Cathouse wrote:
>>
>> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
>>
>>
>>> kaeli wrote:
>>>
>>>> If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
>>>> kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
>>>> and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
>>>> Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
>>>> hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
>>>> around pets unsupervised!!!!!
>>>
>>> Exactly....if a child who is old enough to know better is abusive
>>> to an animal and gets nipped, well, I don't think it's at all
>>> 'psycho' to discipline the child; children have to learn that
>>> there are consequences for hurting others, including being hurt
>>> themselves.
>>
>> The dog shouldn't be the disciplinarian in this picture. By letting it
>> bite the child, that's exactly what you're doing.
>>
>>> Most animals won't do serious harm unless seriously
>>> hurt, so the child would probably just have a sore spot to show
>>> for their cruelty.
>>
>> Wrong. Most kids get bit in the face. They're just the right heighth
>> for that.
>>
>>> It is totally unreasonable to expect an animal
>>> not to react if hurt; as I said, humans often reflexively lash out
>>> when hurt, so we can't expect any more of animals. Of course, if
>>> the dog was truly viscious, and overreacted or hurt the child with
>>> no provocation at all, that would be a different circumstance
>>> altogether.
>>
>> Animals react differently than humans in many situations. It's not
>> unreasonable to expect them to control their actions. The dog can
>> growl, yelp, or walk away. They should never be allowed to bite.
>>
>>>
>>> As for smaller children, as Kaeli says, any responsible adult will
>>> not leave a small child and pet together unsupervised, so there
>>> should be no opportunity for a small child to be hurt by a pet
>>> unless the adult allows it to happen.
>>
>> It only takes a second.
>
> My point exactly...
>
> I questioned sis' as to how this happened...
>
> The baby has a section of the living room that is baby proofed, and
> confined by a large, sectional baby corral. Similar to a puppy
> enclosure. They are available from babiesR'us if any one is interested.
> ;-) Playpens are too small and cruel to children.
>
> The cat jumped into the corral, baby reached out to pet/grab kitty and
> kitty scratched baby across the eye.
>
> Mom was in the kitchen for a few minutes preparing a bottle.
>
> It is NOT possible to supervise 24/7 and accidents happen.
>
> And it only takes a second.
>
> Since this cat had a long history of abusing claws, declawing was
> considered better than euthanasia, or attempting to rehome a troublesome cat.
> She actually offered it to me if her husband was willing. He was not and
> neither was I. My pride of kitties is pretty stable right now and I did
> not want to take on a possible disrupter.
>
> Give it a rest people. This was the best solution for all concerned.
> Anyone that does not concur is a candidate for PETA as far as I am
> concerned. You are NUTS if you consider the welfare of one cat to come
> over that of a human child!!!!
>
> Ask a social worker what the state and CPS stance would have been!
>
> K.

Did you even *think* to try Soft Paws? It was NOT the best solution no
matter how many times you say it.

Karen

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 09:32 AM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>
>
> > "Cathouse" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
> >>
> >>
> >> > "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> >> There is a leaflet on this link that may be of some help to
> >> >> your sister, I haven't really read it just browsed....
> >> >
> >> > I thought this quote from that leaflet was particularly
> >> > relevant:
> >> >
> >> > "If you are having persistent problems of aggression of any
> >> > type with your cat, especially if
> >> > targeted towards people or children, you may wish to talk to
> >> > The Blue Cross or your vet
> >> > about referral to a feline behaviourist."
> >> >
> >> > Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only
> >> > treats the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even
> >> > have more problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become
> >> > even more aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I
> >> > shudder to contemplate its fate....
> >>
> >> And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?
> >
> > no but if you looked you would find one, even if you just spoke
> > over the phone......
> >
> >
>
> They're not that easily accessible to some people. You live in your
> own little world, don't you?

no I live in England....... and if you do a google search you will find
loads of information on aggressive cats? so where are you from then? how
many cats do you have?

--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 09:32 AM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>
>
> > "Cathouse" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
> >>
> >>
> >> > "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> >> There is a leaflet on this link that may be of some help to
> >> >> your sister, I haven't really read it just browsed....
> >> >
> >> > I thought this quote from that leaflet was particularly
> >> > relevant:
> >> >
> >> > "If you are having persistent problems of aggression of any
> >> > type with your cat, especially if
> >> > targeted towards people or children, you may wish to talk to
> >> > The Blue Cross or your vet
> >> > about referral to a feline behaviourist."
> >> >
> >> > Really, declawing a cat because of agressive behavior only
> >> > treats the symptom, not the root problem. The cat may even
> >> > have more problems now that it's declawed, and possibly become
> >> > even more aggressive. And if that turns out to be the case, I
> >> > shudder to contemplate its fate....
> >>
> >> And you think feline behaviorists are everywhere?
> >
> > no but if you looked you would find one, even if you just spoke
> > over the phone......
> >
> >
>
> They're not that easily accessible to some people. You live in your
> own little world, don't you?

no I live in England....... and if you do a google search you will find
loads of information on aggressive cats? so where are you from then? how
many cats do you have?

--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 09:33 AM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>

<cut>

> >> > find out what might be causing the cat's behavior so it could
> >> > possibly be resolved, did she try to find it a new home for it,

> > is Cathouse the same person as Katra ???????
> >
> >
>
> No, dimmy.

what does dimmy mean? not an expression used in uk

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 09:33 AM
"Cathouse" > wrote in message
...
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>

<cut>

> >> > find out what might be causing the cat's behavior so it could
> >> > possibly be resolved, did she try to find it a new home for it,

> > is Cathouse the same person as Katra ???????
> >
> >
>
> No, dimmy.

what does dimmy mean? not an expression used in uk

August 18th 03, 10:28 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message >...
> In ,
> Cathouse > composed with style:
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in
> >
> >
> >> In ,
> >> Cathouse > grunted:
> >>> Katra > wrote in
> >>>
>
> >>>> **** them.
> >>>
> >>> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.
> >>
> >> We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you
> >> say you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
> >> inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
> >> That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the
> >> day it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that
> >> matter. People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you
> >> need education and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it?
> >> Good.
> >>
> >
> > You seem a little peeved. Maybe you should try turning your
> > computer off for a bit.
>
> Over you? Not likely honey. Over inhumane treatment to be allowed in
> a so-called civilized society? You bet. I do my part to spread the
> word. People who have some brains in their head usually change their
> mind. It isn't too late for you. Have you always had a learning
> disability? Maybe we should take another approach. Just asking.
>
> PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
> being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.

Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on the cats),
watch out. ;-) She does know about IP identification.

K.

August 18th 03, 10:28 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message >...
> In ,
> Cathouse > composed with style:
> > "Cheryl" > wrote in
> >
> >
> >> In ,
> >> Cathouse > grunted:
> >>> Katra > wrote in
> >>>
>
> >>>> **** them.
> >>>
> >>> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.
> >>
> >> We believe in humane treatment to animals and no matter what you
> >> say you'll not change the minds of those who believe declawing is
> >> inhumane. Just the same, apparently your minds won't be changed.
> >> That's fine but we'll never stop promoting alternatives until the
> >> day it becomes banned in the US and everywhere else for that
> >> matter. People like Tigger's mom, Katra and her sister and you
> >> need education and we'll not stop promoting that. Ever. Got it?
> >> Good.
> >>
> >
> > You seem a little peeved. Maybe you should try turning your
> > computer off for a bit.
>
> Over you? Not likely honey. Over inhumane treatment to be allowed in
> a so-called civilized society? You bet. I do my part to spread the
> word. People who have some brains in their head usually change their
> mind. It isn't too late for you. Have you always had a learning
> disability? Maybe we should take another approach. Just asking.
>
> PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
> being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.

Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on the cats),
watch out. ;-) She does know about IP identification.

K.

August 18th 03, 10:32 AM
Cathouse > wrote in message >...
> Katra > wrote in
>
>
> >
> >
> > Cathouse wrote:
> >>
> >> kaeli > wrote in
> >>
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > enlightened us with...
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> >> >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> >> >> have any kids of her own.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe
> >> > the kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was
> >> > growing up, and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my
> >> > friends' kids. Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and
> >> > hence, don't get hurt. And we don't leave small children with
> >> > grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >> >
> >> > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> >> > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves
> >> > to be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> >> > parenting. Congrats.
> >>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they
> >> get bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck
> >> your face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one
> > that would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first
> > class psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in
> > their lives.
> >
> > As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch",
> > they have no idea what they are talking about...
> >
> > That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to
> > re-mortage my house to do it.
> >
> > How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???
> >
> > They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.
> >
> > **** them.
>
> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.

Overly so.
Thank you.

Katra

August 18th 03, 10:32 AM
Cathouse > wrote in message >...
> Katra > wrote in
>
>
> >
> >
> > Cathouse wrote:
> >>
> >> kaeli > wrote in
> >>
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > enlightened us with...
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> >> >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> >> >> have any kids of her own.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe
> >> > the kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was
> >> > growing up, and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my
> >> > friends' kids. Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and
> >> > hence, don't get hurt. And we don't leave small children with
> >> > grabby hands be around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> >> >
> >> > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> >> > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves
> >> > to be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> >> > parenting. Congrats.
> >>
> >> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they
> >> get bit in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck
> >> your face in the dog's mouth."
> >
> > Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> > My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one
> > that would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first
> > class psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in
> > their lives.
> >
> > As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch",
> > they have no idea what they are talking about...
> >
> > That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to
> > re-mortage my house to do it.
> >
> > How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???
> >
> > They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.
> >
> > **** them.
>
> They're very judgemental, I've noticed.

Overly so.
Thank you.

Katra

August 18th 03, 10:35 AM
Cathouse > wrote in message >...
> Katra > wrote in
>
>
> >
> > Yes, they should, but a 12 to 14 month old baby is NOT old enough
> > to be told "no" so has to be protected from overly aggressive
> > cats.
> >
> > I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger
> > declawed. This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe
> > more than any cat I've ever known... It will also protect the
> > adults.
>
> I had Max declawed because of aggression. But not because he scratched
> me, I get scratched all the time anyway.
>
> He was rough with the other cats. Not mean, really, he just played
> hard. He tackles with such force, they make a loud thunk when they hit
> the floor. Occassionally, one gets it's nose scratched, but he's not
> the only one that does that.
>
> Unfortunately, Max doesn't get along with the dog. They never have
> liked each other. The dog will just be standing next to the couch and
> here comes Max, slinking out from behind it. Then he jumps on the end
> table and smacks the dog in the face. He got him in the eye once and
> almost blinded him.
>
> Max laughed at the Soft Paws and chewed them off in two days. Nail
> trimming? Out of the question. He howls, kicks, bites, claws...by the
> end of it, he's panting. To keep his nails dull, this needed to be
> done once a week.
>
> Trying to keep from declawing him caused more stress than declawing
> him. So, he had the laser surgery. His paws were never tender and
> he's never had any trouble. In fact, he behaves exactly as he did
> before. Except now, he can't put anybody's eye out.

Thank you. :-)

Katra

August 18th 03, 10:35 AM
Cathouse > wrote in message >...
> Katra > wrote in
>
>
> >
> > Yes, they should, but a 12 to 14 month old baby is NOT old enough
> > to be told "no" so has to be protected from overly aggressive
> > cats.
> >
> > I am not going to apologize for helping my sister get booger
> > declawed. This was an unusual case of a cat that tended to swipe
> > more than any cat I've ever known... It will also protect the
> > adults.
>
> I had Max declawed because of aggression. But not because he scratched
> me, I get scratched all the time anyway.
>
> He was rough with the other cats. Not mean, really, he just played
> hard. He tackles with such force, they make a loud thunk when they hit
> the floor. Occassionally, one gets it's nose scratched, but he's not
> the only one that does that.
>
> Unfortunately, Max doesn't get along with the dog. They never have
> liked each other. The dog will just be standing next to the couch and
> here comes Max, slinking out from behind it. Then he jumps on the end
> table and smacks the dog in the face. He got him in the eye once and
> almost blinded him.
>
> Max laughed at the Soft Paws and chewed them off in two days. Nail
> trimming? Out of the question. He howls, kicks, bites, claws...by the
> end of it, he's panting. To keep his nails dull, this needed to be
> done once a week.
>
> Trying to keep from declawing him caused more stress than declawing
> him. So, he had the laser surgery. His paws were never tender and
> he's never had any trouble. In fact, he behaves exactly as he did
> before. Except now, he can't put anybody's eye out.

Thank you. :-)

Katra

bewtifulfreak
August 18th 03, 01:17 PM
*~*SooZy*~* wrote:

>> You flung that poor little innocent WILD mouse accross the room???
>> You heartless bitch! You are lucky it survived... They are pretty
>> delicate.
>
> I think you are mincing her words! she did say "no control over my
> reflex action"

Thank you, Soozy....I felt terrible when I did it, but it *was* just a
totally reflex reaction. And I didn't expect the mouse to bite, because
I've taken them off my cat before and they never did. It was ironic that
this one bit me just seconds after my husband said, "You know, they do bite,
don't you?"

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak


> when something suddenly bites you, without meaning to or thinking
> about it, you quickly release it, its a natural thing to do in a
> normal person! some may open their hands and let go... other get it
> away from them as quick as possible... let face is SHE did try and
> SAVE the mouse in the first place!

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

bewtifulfreak
August 18th 03, 01:17 PM
*~*SooZy*~* wrote:

>> You flung that poor little innocent WILD mouse accross the room???
>> You heartless bitch! You are lucky it survived... They are pretty
>> delicate.
>
> I think you are mincing her words! she did say "no control over my
> reflex action"

Thank you, Soozy....I felt terrible when I did it, but it *was* just a
totally reflex reaction. And I didn't expect the mouse to bite, because
I've taken them off my cat before and they never did. It was ironic that
this one bit me just seconds after my husband said, "You know, they do bite,
don't you?"

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak


> when something suddenly bites you, without meaning to or thinking
> about it, you quickly release it, its a natural thing to do in a
> normal person! some may open their hands and let go... other get it
> away from them as quick as possible... let face is SHE did try and
> SAVE the mouse in the first place!

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 01:20 PM
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cathouse wrote:
> >
> > kaeli > wrote in
> >
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > enlightened us with...
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> > >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> > >> have any kids of her own.
> > >>
> > >
> > > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> > > kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> > > and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> > > Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> > > hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> > > around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> > >
> > > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> > > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
> > > be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> > > parenting. Congrats.
> >
> > Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> > in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> > the dog's mouth."
>
> Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch", they
> have no idea what they are talking about...
>
> That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to re-mortage my
> house to do it.
>
> How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???
>
> They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.
>
> **** them.
>
> Katra
>

Zed1 loads of people would if they wanted to keep that many cats in clean
conditions!

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 01:20 PM
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cathouse wrote:
> >
> > kaeli > wrote in
> >
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > enlightened us with...
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Look who you're talking too, though, Katra. Most people don't
> > >> let their dogs bite their kids, either. I hope Kaeli doesn't
> > >> have any kids of her own.
> > >>
> > >
> > > If my kid hurt my dog, and the dog nipped, you better believe the
> > > kid would be the one in trouble. As it was when I was growing up,
> > > and it is with my nieces, nephews, cousins, and my friends' kids.
> > > Guess what? We all learn to respect the pets and hence, don't get
> > > hurt. And we don't leave small children with grabby hands be
> > > around pets unsupervised!!!!!
> > >
> > > I pity *your* children, who will learn that it is okay to hurt
> > > pets, as well as your pets, who you expect to allow themselves to
> > > be harmed. You are truly a wonderful example of ignorant
> > > parenting. Congrats.
> >
> > Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> > in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> > the dog's mouth."
>
> Some people you just cannot talk to. ;-)
> My baby nephews welfare came before anything else... and any one that
> would punish a child for letting a dog bite them is a first class
> psycho... and deserves to have CPS liberally involved in their lives.
>
> As for me, having 20 of my rescue cats living on a "back porch", they
> have no idea what they are talking about...
>
> That back porch cost me $16,000 to have built and I had to re-mortage my
> house to do it.
>
> How many people would do that for a small gang of cats???
>
> They don't understand me at all, nor my adoration for my babies.
>
> **** them.
>
> Katra
>

Zed1 loads of people would if they wanted to keep that many cats in clean
conditions!

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 02:08 PM
> wrote in message > >>> Katra >
wrote in
> > >>>

> > PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
> > being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.
>
> Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
> When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on the
cats),
> watch out. ;-) She does know about IP identification.
>
> K.

Zed1 is Katra, and yes she does cos someone pointed it out to her

*~*SooZy*~*
August 18th 03, 02:08 PM
> wrote in message > >>> Katra >
wrote in
> > >>>

> > PS- that statement was very Brandyesque. I noticed you haven't denied
> > being Brandy but have denied being a Katra sock.
>
> Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
> When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on the
cats),
> watch out. ;-) She does know about IP identification.
>
> K.

Zed1 is Katra, and yes she does cos someone pointed it out to her

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:00 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Wrong again. People ask to have their dogs declawed all the time.
> Their claws can cause a lot more damage than a cats.
>

They do, do they?
*ROFLMFAO*

Okay then. If you say so.

*snicker*

(For the people out there who might not know, some dogs have ONE digit
removed from each FRONT paw - the dewclaw. It never touches the ground
and in hunting and sporting breeds, has a tendency to get ripped off
during trials. Some dogs also may damage their eyes when rubbing their
faces too vigorously. Breeders remove the dewclaws of day-old puppies to
prevent major damage from such situations. Since that toe never touches
the ground and has no use, it is certainly not equivalent to a full
declaw. Also by the by, this procedure is banned in some countries as
well. If tail docking is illegal, chances are dewclawing is.)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:00 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Wrong again. People ask to have their dogs declawed all the time.
> Their claws can cause a lot more damage than a cats.
>

They do, do they?
*ROFLMFAO*

Okay then. If you say so.

*snicker*

(For the people out there who might not know, some dogs have ONE digit
removed from each FRONT paw - the dewclaw. It never touches the ground
and in hunting and sporting breeds, has a tendency to get ripped off
during trials. Some dogs also may damage their eyes when rubbing their
faces too vigorously. Breeders remove the dewclaws of day-old puppies to
prevent major damage from such situations. Since that toe never touches
the ground and has no use, it is certainly not equivalent to a full
declaw. Also by the by, this procedure is banned in some countries as
well. If tail docking is illegal, chances are dewclawing is.)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:03 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
> I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.
>
> She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
> AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
> And scare mongers...
>

You have one declawed cat that has no problems? Well, I'm convinced.
Golly gee, I should have seen it. That settles that. One cat had no
problems at all. Must be safe. Thanks!

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:03 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
> I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.
>
> She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
> AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
> And scare mongers...
>

You have one declawed cat that has no problems? Well, I'm convinced.
Golly gee, I should have seen it. That settles that. One cat had no
problems at all. Must be safe. Thanks!

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:18 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >>
> >> In theory, that's great, but that's not what happens. There
> >> aren't enough homes. Do you know how hard it is finding someone
> >> to take an adult cat?
> >>
> >
> > Why, yes, I volunteer at a shelter. Funny how many declaws we
> > have, too.
>
> You're grasping at straws. People give their cats away for a miriad of
> stupid reasons, whether the cat has claws or not.
>


Funny how you missed the entire point below. The post had nothing to do
with why people give up cats - I said there are already declawed cats at
shelters if you want one. You don't need to mutilate one that has its
claws.

If you disagree with a point, do try to counter-point with something
relevant, eh?


> > There is no justification or rationalization for mutilation.
> >
> > If she wanted one with no claws, there are plenty of already
> > declawed cats at the shelter. She should have adopted one of those
> > rather than mutilate yet another animal that is already aggressive
> > and will now probably become a biter. Not all declawed cats bite,
> > of course, and I'm not saying they do. An animal that is already
> > aggressive will find a way to continue to be so. He doesn't have
> > claws. He now has only teeth. Good luck.
> >

--
-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:18 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >>
> >> In theory, that's great, but that's not what happens. There
> >> aren't enough homes. Do you know how hard it is finding someone
> >> to take an adult cat?
> >>
> >
> > Why, yes, I volunteer at a shelter. Funny how many declaws we
> > have, too.
>
> You're grasping at straws. People give their cats away for a miriad of
> stupid reasons, whether the cat has claws or not.
>


Funny how you missed the entire point below. The post had nothing to do
with why people give up cats - I said there are already declawed cats at
shelters if you want one. You don't need to mutilate one that has its
claws.

If you disagree with a point, do try to counter-point with something
relevant, eh?


> > There is no justification or rationalization for mutilation.
> >
> > If she wanted one with no claws, there are plenty of already
> > declawed cats at the shelter. She should have adopted one of those
> > rather than mutilate yet another animal that is already aggressive
> > and will now probably become a biter. Not all declawed cats bite,
> > of course, and I'm not saying they do. An animal that is already
> > aggressive will find a way to continue to be so. He doesn't have
> > claws. He now has only teeth. Good luck.
> >

--
-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> If toes are all the same, why aren't dogs routinely declawed?
>

Because they don't use their claws the same way cats do.
Do I really need to explain that to you or were you being purposefully
disingenuous?

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> If toes are all the same, why aren't dogs routinely declawed?
>

Because they don't use their claws the same way cats do.
Do I really need to explain that to you or were you being purposefully
disingenuous?

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:58 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."
>

My kids would know better. I certainly did.

Kids only know what their parents bother to teach them. Small children
incapable of knowing how to treat an animal shouldn't be around them
unsupervised. I wasn't.

Funny how many people manage to raise kids and animals together just
fine without having to mutilate the pets.

Your pity should be reserved for your own kids if they don't have a
parent who cares enough to teach them how to respect animals. It is for
their own safety as much as for the animals. If you don't know that by
now, there's nothing I can do for you.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 03:58 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Dogs shouldn't bite kids. Period. I pity your kids when they get bit
> in the face and you say "well, you shouldn't have stuck your face in
> the dog's mouth."
>

My kids would know better. I certainly did.

Kids only know what their parents bother to teach them. Small children
incapable of knowing how to treat an animal shouldn't be around them
unsupervised. I wasn't.

Funny how many people manage to raise kids and animals together just
fine without having to mutilate the pets.

Your pity should be reserved for your own kids if they don't have a
parent who cares enough to teach them how to respect animals. It is for
their own safety as much as for the animals. If you don't know that by
now, there's nothing I can do for you.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Relish
August 18th 03, 05:34 PM
kaeli wrote:
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
>>Wrong again. People ask to have their dogs declawed all the time.
>>Their claws can cause a lot more damage than a cats.
>>
>
>
> They do, do they?
> *ROFLMFAO*
>
> Okay then. If you say so.
>
> *snicker*
>
> (For the people out there who might not know, some dogs have ONE digit
> removed from each FRONT paw - the dewclaw. It never touches the ground
> and in hunting and sporting breeds, has a tendency to get ripped off
> during trials. Some dogs also may damage their eyes when rubbing their
> faces too vigorously. Breeders remove the dewclaws of day-old puppies to
> prevent major damage from such situations. Since that toe never touches
> the ground and has no use, it is certainly not equivalent to a full
> declaw. Also by the by, this procedure is banned in some countries as
> well. If tail docking is illegal, chances are dewclawing is.)

Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.

i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.

i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.

Relish
August 18th 03, 05:34 PM
kaeli wrote:
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
>>Wrong again. People ask to have their dogs declawed all the time.
>>Their claws can cause a lot more damage than a cats.
>>
>
>
> They do, do they?
> *ROFLMFAO*
>
> Okay then. If you say so.
>
> *snicker*
>
> (For the people out there who might not know, some dogs have ONE digit
> removed from each FRONT paw - the dewclaw. It never touches the ground
> and in hunting and sporting breeds, has a tendency to get ripped off
> during trials. Some dogs also may damage their eyes when rubbing their
> faces too vigorously. Breeders remove the dewclaws of day-old puppies to
> prevent major damage from such situations. Since that toe never touches
> the ground and has no use, it is certainly not equivalent to a full
> declaw. Also by the by, this procedure is banned in some countries as
> well. If tail docking is illegal, chances are dewclawing is.)

Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.

i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.

i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.

kaeli
August 18th 03, 07:07 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...

[dewclaw removal]
>
> Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.
>
> i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
> cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.
>

I think so, too, but I figured I'd mention it in case anyone else
reading the thread got confuzzled. LOL
Dewclawing and declawing are so similar that when reading literature,
one might confuse the two terms.

> i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
> I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
> matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
> the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.
>

Yeah, but "wrong is wrong" is a morality issue. That is a subjective
issue with no proofs, thus you really can't convince someone of it. Kind
of like all sensitive topics, including eating meat, abortion, religion,
etc, everyone has their own views. When trying to argue for a particular
view, it is generally easier to convince someone of something when you
give them facts and when you use an argument involving cultural
similarity. However, the cultural similarity issue was completely lost
on many of the participants. :)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

kaeli
August 18th 03, 07:07 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...

[dewclaw removal]
>
> Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.
>
> i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
> cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.
>

I think so, too, but I figured I'd mention it in case anyone else
reading the thread got confuzzled. LOL
Dewclawing and declawing are so similar that when reading literature,
one might confuse the two terms.

> i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
> I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
> matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
> the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.
>

Yeah, but "wrong is wrong" is a morality issue. That is a subjective
issue with no proofs, thus you really can't convince someone of it. Kind
of like all sensitive topics, including eating meat, abortion, religion,
etc, everyone has their own views. When trying to argue for a particular
view, it is generally easier to convince someone of something when you
give them facts and when you use an argument involving cultural
similarity. However, the cultural similarity issue was completely lost
on many of the participants. :)

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
If that cell phone was up your a$$, maybe you could
drive a little better!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

Cheryl
August 19th 03, 01:59 AM
In om,
> composed with style:
>
> Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
> When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on
> the cats),
> watch out. ;-)

Damn that sounds like a threat. FTR, it isn't like it costs money to
sock it up.

>She does know about IP identification.
>
> K.

Cheryl
August 19th 03, 01:59 AM
In om,
> composed with style:
>
> Katra does not have the software/hardware to be a sockpuppet yet...
> When she does have the money to do so, (and have not spent it on
> the cats),
> watch out. ;-)

Damn that sounds like a threat. FTR, it isn't like it costs money to
sock it up.

>She does know about IP identification.
>
> K.

Relish
August 19th 03, 03:32 AM
kaeli wrote:
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
> [dewclaw removal]
>
>>Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.
>>
>>i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
>>cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.
>>
>
>
> I think so, too, but I figured I'd mention it in case anyone else
> reading the thread got confuzzled. LOL
> Dewclawing and declawing are so similar that when reading literature,
> one might confuse the two terms.
>
>
>>i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
>>I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
>>matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
>>the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, but "wrong is wrong" is a morality issue. That is a subjective
> issue with no proofs, thus you really can't convince someone of it. Kind
> of like all sensitive topics, including eating meat, abortion, religion,
> etc, everyone has their own views. When trying to argue for a particular
> view, it is generally easier to convince someone of something when you
> give them facts and when you use an argument involving cultural
> similarity. However, the cultural similarity issue was completely lost
> on many of the participants. :)

Yeah, but there are some universal truths. Like murder and maiming
are just wrong. I don't buy the "everything is perception" cop out.

Relish
August 19th 03, 03:32 AM
kaeli wrote:
> In article >,
> enlightened us with...
>
> [dewclaw removal]
>
>>Interesting. I never knew that about dogs.
>>
>>i think the poster was referring to full declawing as a comparison to
>>cats, though. You know, maiming for convenience.
>>
>
>
> I think so, too, but I figured I'd mention it in case anyone else
> reading the thread got confuzzled. LOL
> Dewclawing and declawing are so similar that when reading literature,
> one might confuse the two terms.
>
>
>>i simply don't understand the strength-in-numbers argument here. As
>>I've said before, in the case of declawing, wrong is wrong. Doesn't
>>matter if one person or a billion do it, it's still wrong. theresore,
>>the whole who-does-what-where debate is silly.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, but "wrong is wrong" is a morality issue. That is a subjective
> issue with no proofs, thus you really can't convince someone of it. Kind
> of like all sensitive topics, including eating meat, abortion, religion,
> etc, everyone has their own views. When trying to argue for a particular
> view, it is generally easier to convince someone of something when you
> give them facts and when you use an argument involving cultural
> similarity. However, the cultural similarity issue was completely lost
> on many of the participants. :)

Yeah, but there are some universal truths. Like murder and maiming
are just wrong. I don't buy the "everything is perception" cop out.

Katra
August 19th 03, 04:39 AM
Cathouse wrote:
>
> "*~*SooZy*~*" > wrote in
>
>
> >
> > "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in
> > message ...
> >> *~*SooZy*~* wrote:
> >>
> >> >> You flung that poor little innocent WILD mouse accross the
> >> >> room??? You heartless bitch! You are lucky it survived... They
> >> >> are pretty delicate.
> >> >
> >> > I think you are mincing her words! she did say "no control
> >> > over my reflex action"
> >>
> >> Thank you, Soozy....I felt terrible when I did it, but it *was*
> >> just a totally reflex reaction. And I didn't expect the mouse to
> >> bite, because I've taken them off my cat before and they never
> >> did. It was ironic that this one bit me just seconds after my
> >> husband said, "You know, they do
> > bite,
> >> don't you?"
> >>
> >> Ann
> >>
> > yes I can imagine how it was...... it all happens so quickly!
> >
> >
>
> It does happen quickly. Just like dog bites and cat scratches.


Score... ;-)

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<

Breast Implants are the Stupidest idea ever. If I wanted to fondle
$10,000.oo worth of Silicon, I'd buy a new computer! --Anon.

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra