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Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 08:20 PM
Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.

My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her increased
laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes down
stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they wanted
to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).

I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so rather
than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
the kindest thing to do.

Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.

Cathy Friedmann
August 1st 03, 08:55 PM
If she's not actually ill & showing signs of distress, I personally can't
imagine euthanizing her at this point - or in a month's time, rather. Does
she enjoy sunbaths, still? Doe she purr when she's petted? Does she watch
the other cats - at least to some degree, & in general take notice of her
environment?

You mention her lower back (arthritis, maybe?) & possible kidney probs. Has
she been to the vet for a check-up? Has the vet prescribed treatment for
either condition to help her to feel better? If her BUN & creatinine are
elevated - indicating renal failure, here's a great site w/ lots of
practical info:
http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm


Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>
> My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
> and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
> lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her
increased
> laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes
down
> stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they
wanted
> to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
> downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
> to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>
> I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
> whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
rather
> than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
> active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
> with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
> the kindest thing to do.
>
> Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
>

Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 09:20 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> > I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm
wondering
> > whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
> rather
> > than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the
most
> > active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
> > with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end
is
> > the kindest thing to do.
> >
> > Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
> I know cats are not humans, but I think you have to look at it like this:
if
> you were her, living her life, would you be happy to keep on living? I
> mean, if, as you said, she seems quite happy in general, what makes you
> think it would be more merciful to have her put down? As you said,
everyone
> slows down in later years, but unless a cat is clearly in unbearable pain
> and clearly suffering, not just in a bit of discomfort (do you think most
of
> us would want to be euthanized for arthritis?), I don't think there's any
> reason not to let them live out their life. And if you're worried about
her
> not having enough interest in her life, maybe you could try and find some
> toys or other distractions appropriate to an older cat (not that I can
think
> of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure others might have suggestions,
> and there are so many resources on the web), though quality time with you
> and the other cats may be enough for her at this age. Anyway, I think
> unless she's suffering, you can comfortably let her go on living out her
> life; I'm sure you'll get plenty more input to help you make your
difficult
> decision.
>
> All the Best,
> Ann
>
> P.S. When you said, "I know she has some discomfort from her lower back,
and
> probably kidney problems," did you mean, probably her kidney problems are
> giving her some discomfort? Or probably she has kidney problems? Because
> if you weren't sure, I was going to say you might want to get her checked
> out, but then I realized you might just not be sure of the level of
> discomfort. In any case, you could always consult your vet as to how much
> they think she is suffering in general, and what they think her quality of
> life is; most competent vets will not put a cat down unless they truly
> believe it's necessary, and I'm sure they'd be glad to give you their
> professional opinion as to her state of well-being (if you can afford it,
> that is). I'm sure a vet would also be happy to give you advice as to
ways
> of keeping an older cat occupied and interested as well.
>

I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots more
and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems, but it
was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better not to treat
her.

I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing. I've had her
since I was 5, and I still remember her scaring me silly by playing in the
saucepans and stuff. And now she really rarely moves much.

The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is suffering.
Shes never really complained, even when I knew she was suffering, and I
don't want to discover she is suffering terribly and only living because of
some basic need to stay alive, and not much else. I mean most people with
mild atheritis would probably not want to be put to sleep, but someone who
is suffering with really bad athertis, hurting everytime they move, might
sometimes wish they could die peacefully.

But thank you for your thoughts :)

Cathy Friedmann
August 1st 03, 09:26 PM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > P.S. When you said, "I know she has some discomfort from her lower back,
> and
> > probably kidney problems," did you mean, probably her kidney problems
are
> > giving her some discomfort? Or probably she has kidney problems?
Because
> > if you weren't sure, I was going to say you might want to get her
checked
> > out, but then I realized you might just not be sure of the level of
> > discomfort. In any case, you could always consult your vet as to how
much
> > they think she is suffering in general, and what they think her quality
of
> > life is; most competent vets will not put a cat down unless they truly
> > believe it's necessary, and I'm sure they'd be glad to give you their
> > professional opinion as to her state of well-being (if you can afford
it,
> > that is). I'm sure a vet would also be happy to give you advice as to
> ways
> > of keeping an older cat occupied and interested as well.
> >
>
> I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
more
> and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems, but it
> was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better not to treat
> her.

There is no age limitation (IOW - no upper age limit) for treating chronic
renal failure. In fact, it is a condition that shows up, for the most part,
only in older -> elderly cats.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 09:32 PM
"Cathy Friedmann" > wrote in message
...
> If she's not actually ill & showing signs of distress, I personally can't
> imagine euthanizing her at this point - or in a month's time, rather.
Does
> she enjoy sunbaths, still? Doe she purr when she's petted? Does she
watch
> the other cats - at least to some degree, & in general take notice of her
> environment?

She doesn't much move to enjoy sunbaths. She avoids the other cats, as she
always has other animals. She hates other pets, unfortunately Gizmo and
Betsy were far better off here, and Katie has adapted well to them existing.
As for the general environment, she certainly isn't taking as much notice as
she used to. She likes to sleep. I'm not saying she doesn't derive some
enjoyment from the environment, but it concerns me that she is progressively
"shutting down", and I genuinely don't believe life can be as fun for her as
it was.

> You mention her lower back (arthritis, maybe?) & possible kidney probs.
Has
> she been to the vet for a check-up? Has the vet prescribed treatment for
> either condition to help her to feel better? If her BUN & creatinine are
> elevated - indicating renal failure, here's a great site w/ lots of
> practical info:
> http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm
>

She has been to the vet about 8 months when some signs of the problems were
showing, it was suggested by the vet that treatment for kidney problems
might not be the best way to go.

Regardless of the choice I make about her life, I do plan to take her to the
vets fairly soon, to once again get her checked over.

I love her to bits, and the thought of going up stairs and not seeing her
there is difficult. However my family had a habit of prolonging animals
suffering in order to gain more time with the pet, and I am very conscious
of not allowing my need to be with an animal overrid an animals best
interest. Hense I'm looking for advice :)

Thanks for your comments and I'm just taking a look at the link you gave me
:)

> --
> "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
> "Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
> >
> > My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks,
toilets,
> > and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from
her
> > lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her
> increased
> > laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes
> down
> > stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they
> wanted
> > to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
> > downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no
desire
> > to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
> >
> > I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm
wondering
> > whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
> rather
> > than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the
most
> > active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
> > with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end
is
> > the kindest thing to do.
> >
> > Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
> >
> >
>
>

Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 09:34 PM
"Niels Peter" > wrote in message
k...
> Dooies B.B wrote:
> > Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
> >
> > My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks,
> > toilets, and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some
> > discomfort from her lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other
> > than that and her increased laziness she seems quite happy, purrs
> > when I go to see her, still comes down stairs when she wants more
> > food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they wanted to divide
> > themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
> > downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no
> > desire to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
> >
> > I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm
> > wondering whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a
> > month or so rather than forcing her to go on living when basically
> > she doesn't live the most active of lives, and its not that full of
> > interest. I try and spend time with her, but I just wonder if forcing
> > her to live on to the bitter end is the kindest thing to do.
> >
> > Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
> After your description I'd say she still wants to live. She seems happy
> to you, she purrs when you come to see her etc. Of course the pace of
> life slows down when you're growing old, but that doesn't mean you'd
> rather be dead ...
> There are many quiet joys - both for humans and for animals - in just
> existing.
>
> --
> Niels Peter
> www.bluewhite.dk
> Cats Are People, Too!


I hope so. Its just something that worries me. Knowing when the time is
right.

Arjun Ray
August 1st 03, 09:44 PM
In >, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:

| I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
| more and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems,

"Mild" is a relative term. You should know that kidneys normally have
massive redundancy: there are *no* clinical signs of renal failure until
75% of kidney function has already been lost.

| but it was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better
| not to treat her.

This is complete nonsense. Whilst not curable, kidney failure is far
from untreatable. Please see:

http://www.felinecrf.org/

If your vet doesn't like the idea of a hydration regime (subcutaenous
fluids, done at home), then you should seek another vet for a second
opinion.

Eight months is definitely too long a gap between checkups for a cat
with kidney troubles. You should have a full blood panel done to see
where her numbers are.

| I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing.

You do realize, I hope, that it may not just be her arthritis that is
troubling her at this point? If she has kidney trouble, the toxins will
be building up in her blood, causing her to feel nauseous and tired.

| The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is suffering.

If there were a way to make her feel better, would you go for it?

If you're answer is yes, then please take her to a vet who knows how to
*treat* old cats, rather than one who merely commiserates.

bewtifulfreak
August 1st 03, 09:45 PM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Regardless of the choice I make about her life, I do plan to take her to
the
> vets fairly soon, to once again get her checked over.

Well, I think this will help you make your decision, as the vet should be
able to give you a reasonable idea of just how much discomfort she is in, if
any.


> I love her to bits, and the thought of going up stairs and not seeing her
> there is difficult. However my family had a habit of prolonging animals
> suffering in order to gain more time with the pet, and I am very conscious
> of not allowing my need to be with an animal overrid an animals best
> interest. Hense I'm looking for advice :)

I think that's very admirable. I know it's a difficult situation;
regardless of whether someone we love is nearly gone, or just getting older,
we can't help but remember them how they were and feel a little sad that
things have changed so much. But I think you won't be able to make an
informed choice for your kitty until you get some input from the vet,
especially if she's not very obvious about her pain. I hope the vet is able
to treat any of her health problems after all, and that she can have a bit
more time with you in comfort, but in any case, please keep us informed.

All the Best,
Ann

Arjun Ray
August 1st 03, 09:46 PM
In >, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:

| I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
| more and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems,

"Mild" is a relative term. You should know that kidneys normally have
massive redundancy: there are *no* clinical signs of renal failure until
75% of kidney function has already been lost.

| but it was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better
| not to treat her.

This is complete nonsense. Whilst not curable, kidney failure is far
from untreatable. Please see:

http://www.felinecrf.org/

If your vet doesn't like the idea of a hydration regime (subcutaenous
fluids, done at home), then you should seek another vet for a second
opinion.

Eight months is definitely too long a gap between checkups for a cat
with kidney troubles. You should have a full blood panel done to see
where her numbers are.

| I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing.

You do realize, I hope, that it may not just be her arthritis that is
troubling her at this point? If she has kidney trouble, the toxins will
be building up in her blood, causing her to feel nauseous and tired.

| The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is suffering.

If there were a way to make her feel better, would you go for it?

If you're willing to answer yes, then please take her to a vet who knows
how to *treat* old cats, rather than one who merely commiserates.

Karen Chuplis
August 1st 03, 09:52 PM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >
> > > I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm
> wondering
> > > whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
> > rather
> > > than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the
> most
> > > active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend
time
> > > with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter
end
> is
> > > the kindest thing to do.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
> >
> > I know cats are not humans, but I think you have to look at it like
this:
> if
> > you were her, living her life, would you be happy to keep on living? I
> > mean, if, as you said, she seems quite happy in general, what makes you
> > think it would be more merciful to have her put down? As you said,
> everyone
> > slows down in later years, but unless a cat is clearly in unbearable
pain
> > and clearly suffering, not just in a bit of discomfort (do you think
most
> of
> > us would want to be euthanized for arthritis?), I don't think there's
any
> > reason not to let them live out their life. And if you're worried about
> her
> > not having enough interest in her life, maybe you could try and find
some
> > toys or other distractions appropriate to an older cat (not that I can
> think
> > of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure others might have
suggestions,
> > and there are so many resources on the web), though quality time with
you
> > and the other cats may be enough for her at this age. Anyway, I think
> > unless she's suffering, you can comfortably let her go on living out her
> > life; I'm sure you'll get plenty more input to help you make your
> difficult
> > decision.
> >
> > All the Best,
> > Ann
> >
> > P.S. When you said, "I know she has some discomfort from her lower back,
> and
> > probably kidney problems," did you mean, probably her kidney problems
are
> > giving her some discomfort? Or probably she has kidney problems?
Because
> > if you weren't sure, I was going to say you might want to get her
checked
> > out, but then I realized you might just not be sure of the level of
> > discomfort. In any case, you could always consult your vet as to how
much
> > they think she is suffering in general, and what they think her quality
of
> > life is; most competent vets will not put a cat down unless they truly
> > believe it's necessary, and I'm sure they'd be glad to give you their
> > professional opinion as to her state of well-being (if you can afford
it,
> > that is). I'm sure a vet would also be happy to give you advice as to
> ways
> > of keeping an older cat occupied and interested as well.
> >
>
> I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
more
> and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems, but it
> was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better not to treat
> her.

You need a new vet, IMO. 15 is old but kidney problems can be very
successfully treated and add years to her life. If it isn't too late, I'd
sure try. Many, many people on this group have cats with severe kidney
disease, but the cats are living good lives. Some have started treatment as
late as 18 years. Your vet is not doing you a favor and it is sad. I really
think the next step is a different vet and at least *try* to give her a
chance. I can see that she is important to you. It's your vets duty to try
if you want them too. Treating kidney problems usually consists mostly of a
diet change *if possible* and fluid treatments. They are not traumatic.
Please let us know.

Karen

Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 09:58 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >, "Dooies B.B"
> > wrote:
>
> | I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
> | more and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems,
>
> "Mild" is a relative term. You should know that kidneys normally have
> massive redundancy: there are *no* clinical signs of renal failure until
> 75% of kidney function has already been lost.
>
> | but it was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better
> | not to treat her.
>
> This is complete nonsense. Whilst not curable, kidney failure is far
> from untreatable. Please see:
>
> http://www.felinecrf.org/
>
> If your vet doesn't like the idea of a hydration regime (subcutaenous
> fluids, done at home), then you should seek another vet for a second
> opinion.
>
> Eight months is definitely too long a gap between checkups for a cat
> with kidney troubles. You should have a full blood panel done to see
> where her numbers are.
>
> | I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing.
>
> You do realize, I hope, that it may not just be her arthritis that is
> troubling her at this point? If she has kidney trouble, the toxins will
> be building up in her blood, causing her to feel nauseous and tired.
>
> | The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is suffering.
>
> If there were a way to make her feel better, would you go for it?
>
> If you're willing to answer yes, then please take her to a vet who knows
> how to *treat* old cats, rather than one who merely commiserates.
>

Of course I would try and make her feel better. I have acted under the
advisement of my vet, and it seems I have made a mistake which I will
attempt to sort out. However if the treatment itself is trumatic, and will
not result in a marked improvement and may well need to be repeated serveral
times, then I do wonder if it is the right choice forcing it on an animal
who can't understand what is happening, and who may well have other health
concerns that already impeed her happiness in day to day life.

I have researched the website and it seems that Katie is almost certainly
suffering from some Kidney problems. And yes I am aware that her back
problems are not likely to be the only thing causing her problems.

I do feel that you are attacking me merely for making a mistake based on
information given to me from a trusted person. Whist I realise now that the
choices I have made up to the point may have adversely affected my cat, she
is well loved, and it was not out of choice. My concern has always been for
the welfare of my animals, and not of cost or anything else.

Dooies B.B
August 1st 03, 10:13 PM
"bewtifulfreak" > wrote in message
...
> "Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Regardless of the choice I make about her life, I do plan to take her to
> the
> > vets fairly soon, to once again get her checked over.
>
> Well, I think this will help you make your decision, as the vet should be
> able to give you a reasonable idea of just how much discomfort she is in,
if
> any.
>
>
> > I love her to bits, and the thought of going up stairs and not seeing
her
> > there is difficult. However my family had a habit of prolonging animals
> > suffering in order to gain more time with the pet, and I am very
conscious
> > of not allowing my need to be with an animal overrid an animals best
> > interest. Hense I'm looking for advice :)
>
> I think that's very admirable. I know it's a difficult situation;
> regardless of whether someone we love is nearly gone, or just getting
older,
> we can't help but remember them how they were and feel a little sad that
> things have changed so much. But I think you won't be able to make an
> informed choice for your kitty until you get some input from the vet,
> especially if she's not very obvious about her pain. I hope the vet is
able
> to treat any of her health problems after all, and that she can have a bit
> more time with you in comfort, but in any case, please keep us informed.
>
> All the Best,
> Ann
>
>


Thanks for your input. I'm gonna try and get her an appointment next week,
it seems the sooner the better :)

Karen Chuplis
August 1st 03, 10:29 PM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In >, "Dooies B.B"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > | I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots
> > | more and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney
problems,
> >
> > "Mild" is a relative term. You should know that kidneys normally have
> > massive redundancy: there are *no* clinical signs of renal failure until
> > 75% of kidney function has already been lost.
> >
> > | but it was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better
> > | not to treat her.
> >
> > This is complete nonsense. Whilst not curable, kidney failure is far
> > from untreatable. Please see:
> >
> > http://www.felinecrf.org/
> >
> > If your vet doesn't like the idea of a hydration regime (subcutaenous
> > fluids, done at home), then you should seek another vet for a second
> > opinion.
> >
> > Eight months is definitely too long a gap between checkups for a cat
> > with kidney troubles. You should have a full blood panel done to see
> > where her numbers are.
> >
> > | I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing.
> >
> > You do realize, I hope, that it may not just be her arthritis that is
> > troubling her at this point? If she has kidney trouble, the toxins will
> > be building up in her blood, causing her to feel nauseous and tired.
> >
> > | The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is
suffering.
> >
> > If there were a way to make her feel better, would you go for it?
> >
> > If you're willing to answer yes, then please take her to a vet who knows
> > how to *treat* old cats, rather than one who merely commiserates.
> >
>
> Of course I would try and make her feel better. I have acted under the
> advisement of my vet, and it seems I have made a mistake which I will
> attempt to sort out. However if the treatment itself is trumatic, and will
> not result in a marked improvement and may well need to be repeated
serveral
> times, then I do wonder if it is the right choice forcing it on an animal
> who can't understand what is happening, and who may well have other
health
> concerns that already impeed her happiness in day to day life.
>
> I have researched the website and it seems that Katie is almost certainly
> suffering from some Kidney problems. And yes I am aware that her back
> problems are not likely to be the only thing causing her problems.
>
> I do feel that you are attacking me merely for making a mistake based on
> information given to me from a trusted person. Whist I realise now that
the
> choices I have made up to the point may have adversely affected my cat,
she
> is well loved, and it was not out of choice. My concern has always been
for
> the welfare of my animals, and not of cost or anything else.
>
>
>
I think Arjun is very unhappy with your vet. His frustration may fall into
terse terms. How would you know? Most people trust there vet and I'm very
sorry yours seems to not be up on this as Katie certainly would feel better
by now. From everything people have written here, their cats do not fine
fluids traumatic. I've watched my cats receive fluids for fever or
dehydration and they do not seem traumatized. I'd sure give it a shot.

Karen
>

Cathy Friedmann
August 1st 03, 10:33 PM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Of course I would try and make her feel better. I have acted under the
> advisement of my vet, and it seems I have made a mistake which I will
> attempt to sort out. However if the treatment itself is trumatic, and will
> not result in a marked improvement and may well need to be repeated
serveral
> times, then I do wonder if it is the right choice forcing it on an animal
> who can't understand what is happening, and who may well have other
health
> concerns that already impeed her happiness in day to day life.

Subcutaneous fluids treatment (often used for cats in renal failure) is not
traumatic. It may *look* more so to a person who's never seen sub-Q fluids
given, or who has never given them to their pet at home - since a needle is
involved. But once you see a vet do it & realize the cat is practically
oblivious to the whole deal, you realize it's basically a piece of cake. I
gave them to my CRF cat for months, & some people have done it for years, w/
no probs. As you've seen,m if a cat will eat a renal diet, all to the good,
& a Potassium supplement may also help if necessary. I also gave my cat
Procrit/Epogen injections for her CRF-related anemia - they were even easier
to give than the sub-Q fluids.

As the person who wrote the website (that I - & as it turned out, also Arjun
Ray - provided; well, it really is an excellent site!) discovered, treatment
for CRF in the UK - for some reason - is not nearly as prevalent & advised
by vets as it in the in US.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
>
> I have researched the website and it seems that Katie is almost certainly
> suffering from some Kidney problems. And yes I am aware that her back
> problems are not likely to be the only thing causing her problems.
>
> I do feel that you are attacking me merely for making a mistake based on
> information given to me from a trusted person. Whist I realise now that
the
> choices I have made up to the point may have adversely affected my cat,
she
> is well loved, and it was not out of choice. My concern has always been
for
> the welfare of my animals, and not of cost or anything else.
>
>
>
>

Gail
August 1st 03, 11:03 PM
She still has quality of life for a 15 year old. She does what most older
cats do. I would definitely not euthanize her.
Gail
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>
> My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
> and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
> lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her
increased
> laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes
down
> stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they
wanted
> to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
> downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
> to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>
> I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
> whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
rather
> than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
> active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
> with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
> the kindest thing to do.
>
> Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
>

Mira
August 1st 03, 11:22 PM
On 1 Aug 2003 16:29:04 -0500, "Karen Chuplis" >
wrote:



> From everything people have written here, their cats do not fine
>fluids traumatic.

I imagine you are speaking of subcutaneous fluids as opposed to
intravenous? In any case, this depends on the cat. My 18-year-old
growled and shrieked when the vet put the IV in and when they took it
out. She was very vocal and prone to panic at little things (she was
not very bright, God bless her!) anyway. Conversely, one of my current
cats is such a stoic she makes not a single sound a the vet's, even
when they give her a shot.


> I've watched my cats receive fluids for fever or
>dehydration and they do not seem traumatized. I'd sure give it a shot.

I sure would too. It might help her. I think my old girl's IV hurt me
more than it did her, regardless of her shrieking.



>
>Karen
>>
>
>

Cathy Friedmann
August 1st 03, 11:59 PM
"Mira" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 1 Aug 2003 16:29:04 -0500, "Karen Chuplis" >
> wrote:
>
> > From everything people have written here, their cats do not fine
> >fluids traumatic.
>
> I imagine you are speaking of subcutaneous fluids as opposed to
> intravenous?

I'm not Karen C. but...

Yes, fluids for CRF are subcutaneous, not intravenous.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon


In any case, this depends on the cat. My 18-year-old
> growled and shrieked when the vet put the IV in and when they took it
> out. She was very vocal and prone to panic at little things (she was
> not very bright, God bless her!) anyway. Conversely, one of my current
> cats is such a stoic she makes not a single sound a the vet's, even
> when they give her a shot.
>
>
> > I've watched my cats receive fluids for fever or
> >dehydration and they do not seem traumatized. I'd sure give it a shot.
>
> I sure would too. It might help her. I think my old girl's IV hurt me
> more than it did her, regardless of her shrieking.
>
>
>
> >
> >Karen
> >>
> >
> >
>

Cathy Friedmann
August 2nd 03, 12:31 AM
"Karen Chuplis" > wrote in message
...
Some cats are drama queens :) We had a
> cat that adored another cat of ours. He would follow her around and gaze
at
> her in rapture. She did not like him. There were times I heard horrible
> shrieking. I mean like a REAL fighting, not just normal stuff. I would
rush
> into the room only to find my male 10 feet across the room from the
female,
> but "he's LOOKING at me" seemed to be vocalized over dramatically.

Heh! ;-) This is the same scene I've come across umpteen times - w/
Demelza screeching her head off, at the top of her lungs, at Herrie. "He's
*looking* at me!!!"

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon


After my
> first three heart attacks over it, I found it amusing that she could carry
> on so. It just confused him.
>
> Karen
>

Arjun Ray
August 2nd 03, 12:47 AM
In >, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:

| I do feel that you are attacking me merely for making a mistake based
| on information given to me from a trusted person.

I'm sorry, I wasn't attacking you. As Karen says, I'm very unhappy with
your vet. You have been given rather poor advice to say the least. I
also got the distinct impression that you had given up - based obviously
on the information (or lack of it) from the vet.

To some extent, I speak from personal experience. I have a CRF cat.
(His case is somewhat different in that he isn't old - only 5 - but
that's inessential.) I trusted (and liked) a vet until the day I found
her giving a prognosis that I knew was wrong. I knew because in the
interim, I had researched the subject. My cat needed fluids immediately
but she didn't think so. Basically, her heart wasn't in the fight for
my cat's life.

So I changed vets. I have stopped going to the previous vet, and I
ignore all the reminders and cards she sends.

I know it's hard to turn away from a trusted person, but I view it this
way: my first loyalty is to my cat, not the vet.

Alison
August 2nd 03, 01:02 AM
"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>
> My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks,
toilets,
> and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort
from her
> lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her
increased
> laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still
comes down
> stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided
they wanted
> to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy
the
> downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no
desire
> to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>
> I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm
wondering
> whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
rather
> than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the
most
> active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend
time
> with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter
end is
> the kindest thing to do.
>
> Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
>

Have you taken your cat to the vet for a check up and a blood panel
, if not why are you considering putting her to sleep ? You don't
have a dilema until you find out your cat has something your vet
can't treat .
Alison

Cheryl
August 2nd 03, 04:44 AM
Karen Chuplis wrote:

>>
> Yes, I was referring to subcutaneous. Some cats are drama queens :)
> We had a cat that adored another cat of ours. He would follow her
> around and gaze at her in rapture. She did not like him.

LOL I can picture this.

>There were times I heard horrible shrieking. I mean like a REAL
fighting,
> not just normal stuff. I would rush into the room only to find my
male 10
> feet across the room from the female, but "he's LOOKING at me"
seemed
> to be vocalized over dramatically. After my first three heart
attacks
> over it, I found it amusing that she could carry on so. It just
> confused him.
>
> Karen

Awww.... I can hardly wait for new introductions here. :) Bonnie is
a spitfire so it's going to be interesting!

Mira
August 2nd 03, 08:23 PM
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:35:21 -0500, Karen Chuplis
> wrote:

>in article , Mira at
wrote on 8/1/03 5:22 PM:
>
>> On 1 Aug 2003 16:29:04 -0500, "Karen Chuplis" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>

>>>
>Yes, I was referring to subcutaneous. Some cats are drama queens :) [snip funny story]

Yes indeed. :) This cat had to have some siamese, because although
she was a blue-gray dilute tortie, she had that flat, triangular head
(NO forebrain!) and that voice. I adored her, but she was the only cat
I ever had, so I had no idea that she was a) very unfriendly compared
with other cats and b) not very smart, either.

I had adopted her as a pregnant stray, and the first thing she did
after I fed her the first time was bite me. (I found her in a
fountain, all wet from when some a** had tossed her in, so she was
abused.) This cat hated to be touched at all, and if I picked her up
to love on her she began that high-pitched, modulated growling, and
would work herself into a frenzy of hissing if I did not let her go
right away. My cats now may not like being picked up, but once I have
them in my arms, the warmth or something gets them purring in maybe 10
seconds. (Pushovers!)

Anyway, I'm sure it didn't hurt her as much as it sounded like it did.
And, I still miss my not-very-smart, ill-tempered girl! 18 years is a
long time to have a cat. She might have been the nastiest cat in the
world, but she was my cat and I was her human. <G>

Bob Brenchley.
August 3rd 03, 06:24 PM
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:20:17 +0100, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:

>Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>
>My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
>and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
>lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her increased
>laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes down
>stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they wanted
>to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
>downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
>to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>
>I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
>whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so rather
>than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
>active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
>with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
>the kindest thing to do.
>
>Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
15 and a half is not really old for a cat these days and unless there
is some underlying problem then she should not have slowed down quite
as much as you indicate.

I think a trip to the vet is certainly in order and make sure the vet
checks her eyes. I had one cat down the road with this "withdrawn"
sort of problem ant it turned out to be vision related.

Good luck to her, hopefully there will be several more years ahead for
her.

--
Bob.

Cat's motto: No matter what you've done wrong, always try to make it
look like the dog did it.

Bob Brenchley.
August 3rd 03, 06:28 PM
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:20:43 +0100, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:


>I took her to the vets about 8 months ago and due to her drinking lots more
>and stuff it was suggested that she did have mild kidney problems, but it
>was also suggested that at her age perhaps it would be better not to treat
>her.
>

VERY bad vet. Get a second opinion right away.

>I just find it difficult to watch her slowly stop existing. I've had her
>since I was 5, and I still remember her scaring me silly by playing in the
>saucepans and stuff. And now she really rarely moves much.
>
>The problem really for me is just not knowing how much she is suffering.

Cats do a very good job of hiding suffering, so your point is very
valid. However, a good vet should be able to get a proper diagnosis.

>Shes never really complained, even when I knew she was suffering, and I
>don't want to discover she is suffering terribly and only living because of
>some basic need to stay alive, and not much else. I mean most people with
>mild atheritis would probably not want to be put to sleep, but someone who
>is suffering with really bad athertis, hurting everytime they move, might
>sometimes wish they could die peacefully.
>
>But thank you for your thoughts :)
>
Don't give up yet. Get that second opinion as soon as you can.

--
Bob.

Anything on the ground is a cat toy. Anything not there yet, will be.

Arjun Ray
August 3rd 03, 11:30 PM
In >,
(Mira) wrote:
| On 1 Aug 2003 16:29:04 -0500, "Karen Chuplis" >
| wrote:

|> From everything people have written here, their cats do not fine
|> fluids traumatic.
|
| I imagine you are speaking of subcutaneous fluids as opposed to
| intravenous? In any case, this depends on the cat.

Yes, but in general cats can get accustomed to subQ fluids at home. The
basic idea is to desensitize them to the procedure, often by ritualizing
it, i.e. making it part of a larger procedure that the cat may find more
acceptable.

| My 18-year-old growled and shrieked when the vet put the IV in and when
| they took it out.

Not surprising. This was at the vet's, a stressful situation. And it
was IV, which is more painful than subQ.

That said, it took me well over a month to find a comfortable routine
with my cat. Being at home was inherently much less stressful for him,
but even so, he wasn't amenable to the procedure as long as he felt
uneasy. It was a combination of many little things.

Where? On the kitchen counter? In the bathroom sink? I even tried
putting him on a cafeteria tray place on a sink. Some people advise
blocking off avenues of escape such as making the cat face a corner, but
my fella wouldn't go for that.

Warming the fluids can help - it's a better sensation under the skin.

Then, I found out that the potassium chloride supplement that the vet
had pre-injected into the fluid bag actually stings under the skin. So
I insisted on switching to oral supplements.

It's also important to be calm about the whole thing - cats are very
good at picking up on our tension and unease. I've found that talking
gently to the cat helps - as if you're trying to convince him what a
good idea this is. It makes you focus on the purpose and the benefit.

The fluids are now part of a bonding session. Just him and me, in the
bathroom, with the door closed. I hug him in my lap and he hugs my arm
back as I stroke and pet him gently. When he's thoroughly relaxed, a
quick jab. I keep one hand on his head, my fingers lightly around his
neck. Lifting my hand is the signal that we're done: he waits patiently
for that. Immediately afterwards is meal time: he knows this, so he
doesn't struggle when I pick him to take him into the bathroom.

Keep it low-key, surround the momentary discomfort of the pricking with
all sorts of good sensations, ensure a reward like food or treats at the
end, and few cats will continuue to be disagreeable. They love ritual.

Cathy Friedmann
August 3rd 03, 11:42 PM
"Arjun Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> (Mira) wrote:
> | On 1 Aug 2003 16:29:04 -0500, "Karen Chuplis" >
> | wrote:
>
> |> From everything people have written here, their cats do not fine
> |> fluids traumatic.
> |
> | I imagine you are speaking of subcutaneous fluids as opposed to
> | intravenous? In any case, this depends on the cat.
>
> Yes, but in general cats can get accustomed to subQ fluids at home. The
> basic idea is to desensitize them to the procedure, often by ritualizing
> it, i.e. making it part of a larger procedure that the cat may find more
> acceptable.
>
> | My 18-year-old growled and shrieked when the vet put the IV in and when
> | they took it out.
>
> Not surprising. This was at the vet's, a stressful situation. And it
> was IV, which is more painful than subQ.
>
> That said, it took me well over a month to find a comfortable routine
> with my cat. Being at home was inherently much less stressful for him,
> but even so, he wasn't amenable to the procedure as long as he felt
> uneasy. It was a combination of many little things.
>
> Where? On the kitchen counter? In the bathroom sink? I even tried
> putting him on a cafeteria tray place on a sink. Some people advise
> blocking off avenues of escape such as making the cat face a corner, but
> my fella wouldn't go for that.

I discovered that it was less stressful - basically completely
non-stressful - if I brought the fluids to my cat, Vs. bringing the cat to
the fluids (where I'd had worked out a good set-up). Didn't matter, as to
logistics - there was always a place higher than the cat from which to hang
the fluids, wherever she happened to be. For ex., if she was on the sofa or
out on the screened-porch napping, she barely paid any attention to the
fluids deal when I brought them to her for administration.

Cathy

--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon

Jaycee
August 6th 03, 02:46 PM
If she "doesn't come to see you in bed anymore" perhaps you ought to bring
her to bed with you. My eighteen year-old got a little stiff for higher
jumps, but he sure continued to love those "under the cover cuddles" and
sleeping together we had shared since he was a kitten. The other advice
you've received regarding checking with another vet could be invaluable. No
one is attacking you - you did ask for "advice please". The best of luck to
you and your little ole lady. Jaycee

"Dooies B.B" > wrote in message
. ..
> Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>
> My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
> and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
> lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her
increased
> laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes
down
> stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they
wanted
> to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
> downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
> to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>
> I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
> whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so
rather
> than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
> active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
> with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
> the kindest thing to do.
>
> Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>
>

Blob Drenchley
August 27th 03, 06:00 PM
Bob Brenchley. > wrote:

>On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:20:17 +0100, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>>
>>My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
>>and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
>>lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her increased
>>laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes down
>>stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they wanted
>>to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
>>downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
>>to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>>
>>I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
>>whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so rather
>>than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
>>active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
>>with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
>>the kindest thing to do.
>>
>>Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>>
>15 and a half is not really old for a cat these days and unless there
>is some underlying problem then she should not have slowed down quite
>as much as you indicate.
>
>I think a trip to the vet is certainly in order and make sure the vet
>checks her eyes. I had one cat down the road with this "withdrawn"
>sort of problem ant it turned out to be vision related.
>
>Good luck to her, hopefully there will be several more years ahead for
>her.

Abuse Report Filed

Blob Drenchley
August 27th 03, 06:00 PM
Bob Brenchley. > wrote:

>On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:20:17 +0100, "Dooies B.B"
> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to cross post but I have a bit of a dilema.
>>
>>My cat is now 15 and a half, and although she still eats, drinks, toilets,
>>and sleeps, she does little else. I know she has some discomfort from her
>>lower back, and probably kidney problems. Other than that and her increased
>>laziness she seems quite happy, purrs when I go to see her, still comes down
>>stairs when she wants more food (I have 3 cats, and they decided they wanted
>>to divide themselves so Katie got the upstairs, and Gizmo and betsy the
>>downstairs), she doesn't come and see me in bed any more and has no desire
>>to go outside (even though she used to go out days at a time).
>>
>>I realise this is just old age and everyone slows down, but I'm wondering
>>whether I should consider taking her to be put down in a month or so rather
>>than forcing her to go on living when basically she doesn't live the most
>>active of lives, and its not that full of interest. I try and spend time
>>with her, but I just wonder if forcing her to live on to the bitter end is
>>the kindest thing to do.
>>
>>Any thoughts would be gratefully recieved.
>>
>15 and a half is not really old for a cat these days and unless there
>is some underlying problem then she should not have slowed down quite
>as much as you indicate.
>
>I think a trip to the vet is certainly in order and make sure the vet
>checks her eyes. I had one cat down the road with this "withdrawn"
>sort of problem ant it turned out to be vision related.
>
>Good luck to her, hopefully there will be several more years ahead for
>her.

Abuse Report Filed