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Kristine Kochanski
April 19th 04, 01:08 PM
Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
- and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
rather uneasy.

Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
*rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
cat's face really upsets me :o(

I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
will never attend such an event again.

Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
psychology - I fail to understand this.

Alison
April 19th 04, 09:55 PM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with
hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at
them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats
enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their
distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.

I have to say I'm not keen on cat shows and big dog shows like
Crufts. I go to local charity dog shows and I think the majority of
dogs enjoy all the excitement.
I'm not interested in breeding , there's too many rescue cats and
dogs out there!. But I have my favourite breeds such as JRs and
Springers and Snowshoe etc I think a lot depends on the breeder, you
get good ones and you get not so good ones. Unfortunately, sometimes,
breeders are more interested in the breed and the standard than the
individual cat or dog.
Alison

Alison
April 19th 04, 09:55 PM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with
hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at
them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats
enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their
distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.

I have to say I'm not keen on cat shows and big dog shows like
Crufts. I go to local charity dog shows and I think the majority of
dogs enjoy all the excitement.
I'm not interested in breeding , there's too many rescue cats and
dogs out there!. But I have my favourite breeds such as JRs and
Springers and Snowshoe etc I think a lot depends on the breeder, you
get good ones and you get not so good ones. Unfortunately, sometimes,
breeders are more interested in the breed and the standard than the
individual cat or dog.
Alison

Gee
April 19th 04, 09:59 PM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?

I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
don't love animals. It's simple really.

> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(

Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
animals, or are they in it just for the money.

> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.

Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very pathetic.
There is a place for everyone in this world.

> Any breeders care to comment?

I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
walked into my life.

> Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.

I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!

So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
them. However I do like to watch agility shows.

Gee

Gee
April 19th 04, 09:59 PM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?

I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
don't love animals. It's simple really.

> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(

Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
animals, or are they in it just for the money.

> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.

Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very pathetic.
There is a place for everyone in this world.

> Any breeders care to comment?

I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
walked into my life.

> Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.

I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!

So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
them. However I do like to watch agility shows.

Gee

Tina Laitinen
April 19th 04, 10:07 PM
"Gee" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> > because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> > distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> > of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> > - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> > prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> > incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> > rather uneasy.
> >
> > Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> > beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
> I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
> beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
> don't love animals. It's simple really.
>
> > Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> > *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> > cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
> breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them,
those
> crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of
money
> and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
> animals, or are they in it just for the money.
>
> > I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> > will never attend such an event again.
>
> Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
> competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very
pathetic.
> There is a place for everyone in this world.
>
> > Any breeders care to comment?
>
> I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
> walked into my life.
>
> > Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>
> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
>
> Gee

Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows are
the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of cat.
I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled. Most of the cat shows I've been
to the cats were fairly calm and most were sleepin. The breeders seem to
love their cats and most are very egar to share cat stories. At least
that's at the show's I've been to. They also have common housecat shows.
Though I've never been to one. It might be fun to go to one of those and
see the different personalities of the regular old house cats with no breed
to em at all. Lastly, I read somewhere that non-pure breed cats are more
likely to live longer than pure breed cats and are less likely to have
behavioural and heath problems. Still some days we wish we had cats who
liked water, or liked to sit on your lap. Personally I'd like a hairless
one hehe.

Tina

Tina Laitinen
April 19th 04, 10:07 PM
"Gee" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> > because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> > distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> > of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> > - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> > prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> > incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> > rather uneasy.
> >
> > Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> > beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
> I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
> beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
> don't love animals. It's simple really.
>
> > Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> > *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> > cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
> breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them,
those
> crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of
money
> and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
> animals, or are they in it just for the money.
>
> > I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> > will never attend such an event again.
>
> Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
> competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very
pathetic.
> There is a place for everyone in this world.
>
> > Any breeders care to comment?
>
> I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
> walked into my life.
>
> > Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>
> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
>
> Gee

Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows are
the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of cat.
I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled. Most of the cat shows I've been
to the cats were fairly calm and most were sleepin. The breeders seem to
love their cats and most are very egar to share cat stories. At least
that's at the show's I've been to. They also have common housecat shows.
Though I've never been to one. It might be fun to go to one of those and
see the different personalities of the regular old house cats with no breed
to em at all. Lastly, I read somewhere that non-pure breed cats are more
likely to live longer than pure breed cats and are less likely to have
behavioural and heath problems. Still some days we wish we had cats who
liked water, or liked to sit on your lap. Personally I'd like a hairless
one hehe.

Tina

Kristine Kochanski
April 19th 04, 10:38 PM
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:59:13 +0100, "Gee" > wrote:

>
>"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
>> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
>> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
>> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
>> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
>> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
>> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
>> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
>> rather uneasy.
>>
>> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
>> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
>I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
>beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
>don't love animals. It's simple really.

That's my opinion anyway. Doesn't matter to me if they've got one ear
missing, spots, stripes, black or white, they're all beautiful. As
nature intended.

>> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
>> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
>> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
>Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
>breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
>crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
>and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
>animals, or are they in it just for the money.

Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
being driven there) equates to maximising the cat's wellbeing. Some
breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
stared at.

>> Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
>I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
>uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
>territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
>exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>
>So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
>them.

Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...

> However I do like to watch agility shows.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded. That's a totally different thing to
sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
one down the next row.

Kristine Kochanski
April 19th 04, 10:38 PM
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:59:13 +0100, "Gee" > wrote:

>
>"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
>> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
>> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
>> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
>> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
>> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
>> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
>> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
>> rather uneasy.
>>
>> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
>> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
>I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
>beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
>don't love animals. It's simple really.

That's my opinion anyway. Doesn't matter to me if they've got one ear
missing, spots, stripes, black or white, they're all beautiful. As
nature intended.

>> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
>> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
>> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
>Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
>breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
>crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
>and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
>animals, or are they in it just for the money.

Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
being driven there) equates to maximising the cat's wellbeing. Some
breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
stared at.

>> Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
>I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
>uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
>territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
>exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>
>So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
>them.

Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...

> However I do like to watch agility shows.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded. That's a totally different thing to
sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
one down the next row.

Kristine Kochanski
April 19th 04, 10:44 PM
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:07:33 GMT, "Tina Laitinen"
> wrote:

>
>"Gee" > wrote in message
...
>> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
>> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
>> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
>> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>>
>> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
>> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
>>
>> Gee
>
>Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows are
>the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of cat.
>I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled.

I'm sure they do and I'm sure they're completed spoiled at home, but
it's the cage-strange territory thing that makes me feel uneasy. Why
not bring pics of their cats instead?! ;o)

> Personally I'd like a hairless one hehe.

lol! Get a sphynx ;o) I think you probably have to knit them little
jumpers in the winter though ;o)

Kristine Kochanski
April 19th 04, 10:44 PM
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:07:33 GMT, "Tina Laitinen"
> wrote:

>
>"Gee" > wrote in message
...
>> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
>> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
>> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
>> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
>>
>> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
>> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
>>
>> Gee
>
>Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows are
>the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of cat.
>I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled.

I'm sure they do and I'm sure they're completed spoiled at home, but
it's the cage-strange territory thing that makes me feel uneasy. Why
not bring pics of their cats instead?! ;o)

> Personally I'd like a hairless one hehe.

lol! Get a sphynx ;o) I think you probably have to knit them little
jumpers in the winter though ;o)

Cat Protector
April 19th 04, 10:58 PM
I have been to at least two cat shows and I think they are great. You learn
a lot about and get to see a lot of different breeds. The cats being shown
are used to the shows so they are probably not as scared or nervous as you
might think. Cats are not judged solely on appearance. There are other
things the judges take into consideration. If you really want to know what
cat shows are really about I'd go to the Cat Fanciers Association Web Site.
The addy is www.cfa.org. The best thing about Cat Shows is too enjoy it and
to talk with other cat lovers. My experience was a positive one and I'd go
back.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.

Cat Protector
April 19th 04, 10:58 PM
I have been to at least two cat shows and I think they are great. You learn
a lot about and get to see a lot of different breeds. The cats being shown
are used to the shows so they are probably not as scared or nervous as you
might think. Cats are not judged solely on appearance. There are other
things the judges take into consideration. If you really want to know what
cat shows are really about I'd go to the Cat Fanciers Association Web Site.
The addy is www.cfa.org. The best thing about Cat Shows is too enjoy it and
to talk with other cat lovers. My experience was a positive one and I'd go
back.

--
Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.

Tina Laitinen
April 20th 04, 01:10 AM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:07:33 GMT, "Tina Laitinen"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gee" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> >> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> >> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine
what
> >> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
> >>
> >> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits
from
> >> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
> >>
> >> Gee
> >
> >Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows
are
> >the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of
cat.
> >I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled.
>
> I'm sure they do and I'm sure they're completed spoiled at home, but
> it's the cage-strange territory thing that makes me feel uneasy. Why
> not bring pics of their cats instead?! ;o)
>
> > Personally I'd like a hairless one hehe.
>
> lol! Get a sphynx ;o) I think you probably have to knit them little
> jumpers in the winter though ;o)
>

Most of the breeders now bring their own cages. I've seen a few custom
built cages that the owners bring.

Pictures is a good idea also.

Tina

Tina Laitinen
April 20th 04, 01:10 AM
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:07:33 GMT, "Tina Laitinen"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gee" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> >> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> >> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine
what
> >> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
> >>
> >> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits
from
> >> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
> >>
> >> Gee
> >
> >Personally I think if your going to get a pure breed cat the cat shows
are
> >the best place to go and talk to breeders and learn about the breed of
cat.
> >I think that the cats enjoy being spoiled.
>
> I'm sure they do and I'm sure they're completed spoiled at home, but
> it's the cage-strange territory thing that makes me feel uneasy. Why
> not bring pics of their cats instead?! ;o)
>
> > Personally I'd like a hairless one hehe.
>
> lol! Get a sphynx ;o) I think you probably have to knit them little
> jumpers in the winter though ;o)
>

Most of the breeders now bring their own cages. I've seen a few custom
built cages that the owners bring.

Pictures is a good idea also.

Tina

Cheryl
April 20th 04, 01:27 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 19 Apr 2004:

> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.
>

I went to a TICA cat show last year (my first show, my only show to date)
and the thing that got to me was the tomcat smell. I have to give them
props for alotting some space for our rescue group to showcase some
homeless cats during the show, but after 3 days there, the smell really
got to me. I think for the most part, the contestants are proud of their
cats and want to show them off. I didn't see many cats who were
distressed, other than some males who sprayed the judging stations but
you can't blame them, it was instinct because they smelled other tomcats.
I saw a lot of cats pampered and played with during their cage time, and
those owners who were there for the full 3 days rotated which cats they
brought so many weren't there the whole time.

--
Cheryl

Cheryl
April 20th 04, 01:27 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 19 Apr 2004:

> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.
>

I went to a TICA cat show last year (my first show, my only show to date)
and the thing that got to me was the tomcat smell. I have to give them
props for alotting some space for our rescue group to showcase some
homeless cats during the show, but after 3 days there, the smell really
got to me. I think for the most part, the contestants are proud of their
cats and want to show them off. I didn't see many cats who were
distressed, other than some males who sprayed the judging stations but
you can't blame them, it was instinct because they smelled other tomcats.
I saw a lot of cats pampered and played with during their cage time, and
those owners who were there for the full 3 days rotated which cats they
brought so many weren't there the whole time.

--
Cheryl

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:03 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
you wanted to see.
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them.
Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
judging is done behind closed doors normally?
>This can't be good for a cat!
Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
emphasise it?
> Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
Well because you have no knowledge of it all I expext you wanted to
believe it was upsetting.
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?
Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
judging follows this in most respects.
>Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
modern society .
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.
You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
near the bars quite calmly and happily.
Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
them no doubt.

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:03 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
you wanted to see.
> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> prodding them.
Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
judging is done behind closed doors normally?
>This can't be good for a cat!
Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
emphasise it?
> Every cat was obviously
> incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> rather uneasy.
>
Well because you have no knowledge of it all I expext you wanted to
believe it was upsetting.
> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?
Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
judging follows this in most respects.
>Aren't they all
> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> cat's face really upsets me :o(
So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?
>
> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> will never attend such an event again.
Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
modern society .
>
> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
> psychology - I fail to understand this.
You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
near the bars quite calmly and happily.
Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
them no doubt.

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:08 PM
Gee wrote:

>
> "Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> > because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> > distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> > of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> > - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> > prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> > incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> > rather uneasy.
> >
> > Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> > beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
> I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
> beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
> don't love animals. It's simple really.
> Oh for goodness sake what a silly thing to say.
I don't like all animals but would class myself as an animal lover. I
don't like spiders and there are some breeds of dog I dislike, but I
still like animals.
> > Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> > *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> > cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
> breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
> crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
> and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
> animals, or are they in it just for the money.
>
> > I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> > will never attend such an event again.
>
> Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
> competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very pathetic.
> There is a place for everyone in this world.
>
> > Any breeders care to comment?
>
> I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
> walked into my life.
>
> > Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
That is called anthropomorphising and not a good thing.
>
> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
HAve you ever *been* to a cat show Gee?

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:08 PM
Gee wrote:

>
> "Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
> > because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
> > distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
> > of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> > - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
> > prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
> > incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
> > rather uneasy.
> >
> > Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
> > beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
>
> I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
> beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
> don't love animals. It's simple really.
> Oh for goodness sake what a silly thing to say.
I don't like all animals but would class myself as an animal lover. I
don't like spiders and there are some breeds of dog I dislike, but I
still like animals.
> > Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
> > *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
> > cat's face really upsets me :o(
>
> Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
> breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
> crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
> and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
> animals, or are they in it just for the money.
>
> > I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
> > will never attend such an event again.
>
> Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
> competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very pathetic.
> There is a place for everyone in this world.
>
> > Any breeders care to comment?
>
> I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
> walked into my life.
>
> > Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.
>
> I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
> territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
> exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
That is called anthropomorphising and not a good thing.
>
> So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> them. However I do like to watch agility shows.
HAve you ever *been* to a cat show Gee?

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:16 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:


>
> Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
> the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
> understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
> being driven there)
all of my cats will get into the car if they get a chance and enjoy
being taken for a drive. No stress at all.

Some
> breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
> cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
> stared at.
I don't tink you were looking properly at the cats. I think you decided
what they were feeling and made your mind up on that basis.

> >I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> >uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory.
Show cats are very used to the routine and not at all stressed. They
have their own blanket and litter and the owner is nearby.
>>And if that new
> >territory contains millions of other strange cats,
Bloody hell what show was this were a million cats were being
exhibited?????
>>I can just imagine what
> >exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
Do not anthropomorphise.
> >So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> >them.
>
> Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...
Happy to oblige :0)
>
> > However I do like to watch agility shows.
Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.
>
> I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
> in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
> out of working and being rewarded.
They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it? But you are sure they enjoy it all just like
you are sure the cats don't enjoy it.
>That's a totally different thing to
> sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
> one down the next row.
They get stuck in a sack and beaten into submission, but I'm sure they
enjoy it really.

good golly Ms Molly
April 26th 04, 11:16 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:


>
> Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
> the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
> understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
> being driven there)
all of my cats will get into the car if they get a chance and enjoy
being taken for a drive. No stress at all.

Some
> breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
> cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
> stared at.
I don't tink you were looking properly at the cats. I think you decided
what they were feeling and made your mind up on that basis.

> >I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
> >uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory.
Show cats are very used to the routine and not at all stressed. They
have their own blanket and litter and the owner is nearby.
>>And if that new
> >territory contains millions of other strange cats,
Bloody hell what show was this were a million cats were being
exhibited?????
>>I can just imagine what
> >exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!
Do not anthropomorphise.
> >So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
> >them.
>
> Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...
Happy to oblige :0)
>
> > However I do like to watch agility shows.
Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.
>
> I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
> in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
> out of working and being rewarded.
They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it? But you are sure they enjoy it all just like
you are sure the cats don't enjoy it.
>That's a totally different thing to
> sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
> one down the next row.
They get stuck in a sack and beaten into submission, but I'm sure they
enjoy it really.

Kristine Kochanski
April 26th 04, 11:39 PM
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:03:23 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
>> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
>> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
>> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
>> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
>to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
>you wanted to see.

Funny, that's exactly what I thought of the people who seemed to
imagine their cats enjoyed the experience.

>> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
>> prodding them.
> Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
>judging is done behind closed doors normally?

I saw the cats being judged. Two 'officials' in white coats going
around pulling the cats from the cages holding them up, looking at
their bumholes and yanking their jaws apart. Hmm, that's not scary for
a cat at all is it.

>>This can't be good for a cat!
> Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
>emphasise it?

Do you really want me to explain or are just being facetious like the
rest of your post?

>> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?
> Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
>judging follows this in most respects.

Can't decide if that's just patronising or you trying to be sarcastic
and patrionising.

>>Aren't they all
>> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
>closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
>> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
>> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
>> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?

Ditto.

>> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
>> will never attend such an event again.
> Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
>modern society .

Uh-huh.

>> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
>> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
>> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
>> psychology - I fail to understand this.
> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour.

How wrong you are.

> You probably

Please don't make assumptions.

>have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
>a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

What a stupid thing to say. What has that got to do with the price of
fish?

> And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
>shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
>the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
>things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
>cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
>near the bars quite calmly and happily.
> Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
>supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
>them no doubt.

Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
a lot there.

Kristine Kochanski
April 26th 04, 11:39 PM
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:03:23 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
>> Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
>> because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
>> distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
>> of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
> I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
>to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
>you wanted to see.

Funny, that's exactly what I thought of the people who seemed to
imagine their cats enjoyed the experience.

>> - and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
>> prodding them.
> Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
>judging is done behind closed doors normally?

I saw the cats being judged. Two 'officials' in white coats going
around pulling the cats from the cages holding them up, looking at
their bumholes and yanking their jaws apart. Hmm, that's not scary for
a cat at all is it.

>>This can't be good for a cat!
> Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
>emphasise it?

Do you really want me to explain or are just being facetious like the
rest of your post?

>> Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?
> Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
>judging follows this in most respects.

Can't decide if that's just patronising or you trying to be sarcastic
and patrionising.

>>Aren't they all
>> beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?
> A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
>closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
>> Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
>> *rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
>> cat's face really upsets me :o(
>So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?

Ditto.

>> I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
>> will never attend such an event again.
> Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
>modern society .

Uh-huh.

>> Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
>> the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
>> mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
>> psychology - I fail to understand this.
> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour.

How wrong you are.

> You probably

Please don't make assumptions.

>have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
>a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

What a stupid thing to say. What has that got to do with the price of
fish?

> And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
>shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
>the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
>things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
>cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
>near the bars quite calmly and happily.
> Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
>supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
>them no doubt.

Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
a lot there.

Kristine Kochanski
April 26th 04, 11:47 PM
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:16:46 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:


> I don't tink

So it seems.

Oh well. Shame.

Kristine Kochanski
April 26th 04, 11:47 PM
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:16:46 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:


> I don't tink

So it seems.

Oh well. Shame.

kaeli
April 27th 04, 02:34 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
> have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
> a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to). And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*


Remember, we think declawing is perfectly okay over here. Don't assume
our cat shows are all that wonderful, either.
Also, I'd bet that different shows are different. We have many shows put
on by different clubs. I would bet they are run differently.

The OP could have gone to a big show or a tiny one.
I don't believe (s)he specified. My guess is that the big breed shows in
the big cities run things a lot differently than the small local ones in
a small township.

[YMMV; I've only been to three local shows here in the States and none
in the UK.]


--
--
~kaeli~
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless
interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an
otherwise dull day.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 27th 04, 02:34 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
> have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
> a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to). And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*


Remember, we think declawing is perfectly okay over here. Don't assume
our cat shows are all that wonderful, either.
Also, I'd bet that different shows are different. We have many shows put
on by different clubs. I would bet they are run differently.

The OP could have gone to a big show or a tiny one.
I don't believe (s)he specified. My guess is that the big breed shows in
the big cities run things a lot differently than the small local ones in
a small township.

[YMMV; I've only been to three local shows here in the States and none
in the UK.]


--
--
~kaeli~
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless
interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an
otherwise dull day.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 27th 04, 02:40 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> > > However I do like to watch agility shows.
> Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
> jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
> and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
> dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
> stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
> halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
> course.
> >

God, I hope you were being sarcastic to try to make some point that was
lost.

Dogs adore agility.
No one forces them. It's all positive training with treats, unless some
neanderthals somewhere are still using force training. I know of no
trainers who still use that for agility.
A dog works best without fear.

> > I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
> > in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
> > out of working and being rewarded.
> They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
> hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
> few years back isn't it?

That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?


--
--
~kaeli~
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from
many is research.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 27th 04, 02:40 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> > > However I do like to watch agility shows.
> Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
> jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
> and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
> dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
> stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
> halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
> course.
> >

God, I hope you were being sarcastic to try to make some point that was
lost.

Dogs adore agility.
No one forces them. It's all positive training with treats, unless some
neanderthals somewhere are still using force training. I know of no
trainers who still use that for agility.
A dog works best without fear.

> > I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
> > in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
> > out of working and being rewarded.
> They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
> hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
> few years back isn't it?

That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?


--
--
~kaeli~
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from
many is research.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Kristine Kochanski
April 27th 04, 03:29 PM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:39 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >, oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
>> Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>>
>> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
>> have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
>> a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
>
>And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
>They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
>everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to).

The show I went to was in the UK, it was a small venue. The judges
lifted each cat from its cage and held it in the air while looking at
it from various angles, in its ears, under its tail etc etc. I've
asked a few people about this and the general consensus is that the
cats are usually taken from the cages and put on a trolley to be
examined before moving on to the next. This is done in full public
view - presumably to stop any cheating or ambiguity.

> And
>the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
>all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
>cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
>they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
>thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
>they'll live. *g*

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

Kristine Kochanski
April 27th 04, 03:29 PM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:39 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >, oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
>> Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>>
>> You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
>> have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
>> a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
>
>And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
>They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
>everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to).

The show I went to was in the UK, it was a small venue. The judges
lifted each cat from its cage and held it in the air while looking at
it from various angles, in its ears, under its tail etc etc. I've
asked a few people about this and the general consensus is that the
cats are usually taken from the cages and put on a trolley to be
examined before moving on to the next. This is done in full public
view - presumably to stop any cheating or ambiguity.

> And
>the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
>all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
>cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
>they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
>thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
>they'll live. *g*

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

kaeli
April 27th 04, 04:44 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>

Why do you feel that it is barbaric?


--
--
~kaeli~
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher probability
of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 27th 04, 04:44 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>

Why do you feel that it is barbaric?


--
--
~kaeli~
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher probability
of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Kristine Kochanski
April 27th 04, 06:02 PM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:44:01 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>>
>> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
>> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
>> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
>> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>>
>
>Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.
Like I said, all animals are beautiful, you can't say one is more
superior to any other. Breeding cats to have certain traits for the
sake of appearance or breeders' egos or whatever reason they do it,
shouldn't be rewarded IMO. And trapping them in cages just so they can
be shown off doesn't sound like a very humane thing to do, yes they
tolerate it (some more than others) but whose benefit is a cat show
for? Certainly not a cat's. That aspect I do find barbaric. It's bad
enough trapping them to take them to the vet, but at least that's an
absolute necessity, not a pastime.

It reminds me of the pompous aristocrats of the 19th century who
prized their mutant cross-breed cattle to the point they had portraits
done of them which hanged on the walls of their stately homes
alongside the oil paintings of Great Great Uncle Farquarstonehaugh.
Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

Kristine Kochanski
April 27th 04, 06:02 PM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:44:01 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>>
>> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
>> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
>> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
>> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>>
>
>Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.
Like I said, all animals are beautiful, you can't say one is more
superior to any other. Breeding cats to have certain traits for the
sake of appearance or breeders' egos or whatever reason they do it,
shouldn't be rewarded IMO. And trapping them in cages just so they can
be shown off doesn't sound like a very humane thing to do, yes they
tolerate it (some more than others) but whose benefit is a cat show
for? Certainly not a cat's. That aspect I do find barbaric. It's bad
enough trapping them to take them to the vet, but at least that's an
absolute necessity, not a pastime.

It reminds me of the pompous aristocrats of the 19th century who
prized their mutant cross-breed cattle to the point they had portraits
done of them which hanged on the walls of their stately homes
alongside the oil paintings of Great Great Uncle Farquarstonehaugh.
Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

kaeli
April 27th 04, 07:24 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> >Why do you feel that it is barbaric?
>
> The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.

Can't disagree with you there.

I think using a term as loaded as "barbaric" for something that does no
harm is a bit, well, heavy-handed.
There's a lot of things in this world I'd call barbaric. They include
circumcision, animal testing, fur farms, declawing, and all kinds of
other atrocities that DO harm and sometimes kill.
As much as I don't think showing animals is a lot of fun for them, I
wouldn't call it barbaric. Pointless, yes. To me anyway. Cruel? No. No
more cruel than making our children dress nice and sit quietly in
church, someplace I'm pretty sure they'd rather not be. *eg*

Cruel is breeding cats (and dogs) with such pushed-in faces that they
have problems with as basic an act as breathing.
(glad to hear persian breeders have been toning THAT down)

I guess it's all relative, though.

> Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
> for breeding animals.

Classic. :)
And how true. Though it's been well more than 200 years that we've been
breeding animals (world-wide).

--
--
~kaeli~
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 27th 04, 07:24 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> >Why do you feel that it is barbaric?
>
> The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.

Can't disagree with you there.

I think using a term as loaded as "barbaric" for something that does no
harm is a bit, well, heavy-handed.
There's a lot of things in this world I'd call barbaric. They include
circumcision, animal testing, fur farms, declawing, and all kinds of
other atrocities that DO harm and sometimes kill.
As much as I don't think showing animals is a lot of fun for them, I
wouldn't call it barbaric. Pointless, yes. To me anyway. Cruel? No. No
more cruel than making our children dress nice and sit quietly in
church, someplace I'm pretty sure they'd rather not be. *eg*

Cruel is breeding cats (and dogs) with such pushed-in faces that they
have problems with as basic an act as breathing.
(glad to hear persian breeders have been toning THAT down)

I guess it's all relative, though.

> Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
> for breeding animals.

Classic. :)
And how true. Though it's been well more than 200 years that we've been
breeding animals (world-wide).

--
--
~kaeli~
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 10:59 PM
kaeli wrote:

> In article >, oldmolly1955
> @REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> > Kristine Kochanski wrote:
> >
> > You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
> > have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
> > a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
>
> And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 10:59 PM
kaeli wrote:

> In article >, oldmolly1955
> @REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> > Kristine Kochanski wrote:
> >
> > You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
> > have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
> > a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.
>
> And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 11:05 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

> Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
> a lot there.
I learned a lot too. LIke the fact that you took steps to hide your
identity in the headers. Normally only a troll would do that.

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 11:05 PM
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

> Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
> a lot there.
I learned a lot too. LIke the fact that you took steps to hide your
identity in the headers. Normally only a troll would do that.

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 11:07 PM
kaeli wrote:


> That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
> police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
> Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
> wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
> watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?
>
>
>
I have never seen a muzzled police dog. Are we talking about UK now or
USA?
The dog I mentioned was not 15 years ago at all. It was only a matter
of some 3 or 4 years ago.
I personally don't watch American trash thanks.I prefer to go onluine
or read a book for my relaxation after I have finished my chores.

good golly Ms Molly
April 27th 04, 11:07 PM
kaeli wrote:


> That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
> police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
> Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
> wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
> watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?
>
>
>
I have never seen a muzzled police dog. Are we talking about UK now or
USA?
The dog I mentioned was not 15 years ago at all. It was only a matter
of some 3 or 4 years ago.
I personally don't watch American trash thanks.I prefer to go onluine
or read a book for my relaxation after I have finished my chores.

Cheryl
April 28th 04, 12:55 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 27 Apr 2004:

> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.

--
Cheryl

Cheryl
April 28th 04, 12:55 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 27 Apr 2004:

> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.

--
Cheryl

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 11:11 AM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:05:06 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
>> Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
>> a lot there.
>I learned a lot too. LIke the fact that you took steps to hide your
>identity in the headers. Normally only a troll would do that.

?? where? I wouldn't know how to alter my headers if I tried! The only
thing that's altered is my email address. I've posted under my real
name for the duration of the time I've been on usenet (about 6 years)
but had to change recently after someone took a shine to something I'd
posted and began badgering me for dates, including tracking down my
phone number and calling me at all times of the day and night. I don't
want that kind of attention so now I'm anonymous, I'm certainly no
troll, I assumed *you* were the troll given your inflammatory and
childish approach to replying to posts.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 11:11 AM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:05:06 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski wrote:
>
>> Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
>> a lot there.
>I learned a lot too. LIke the fact that you took steps to hide your
>identity in the headers. Normally only a troll would do that.

?? where? I wouldn't know how to alter my headers if I tried! The only
thing that's altered is my email address. I've posted under my real
name for the duration of the time I've been on usenet (about 6 years)
but had to change recently after someone took a shine to something I'd
posted and began badgering me for dates, including tracking down my
phone number and calling me at all times of the day and night. I don't
want that kind of attention so now I'm anonymous, I'm certainly no
troll, I assumed *you* were the troll given your inflammatory and
childish approach to replying to posts.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 11:21 AM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:55:59 -0500, Cheryl
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 27 Apr 2004:
>
>> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
>> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
>> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
>> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>
>Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.

Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
That's the barbaric aspect I object to. I still think it's pretty
pointless to judge a dog on appearance (expecially when you see those
poor little fluffy things with ribbons in their hair, ugh, or poodles
shaved into bizarre shapes, what IS that all about?!). But, if the dog
is happy enough to go along with walking around showing off to its
owner for a treat then there's not much to complain about. I can't see
a cat getting anything out of being shown. The ones I saw didn't look
too pleased about it anyway.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 11:21 AM
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:55:59 -0500, Cheryl
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 27 Apr 2004:
>
>> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
>> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
>> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
>> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
>
>Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.

Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
That's the barbaric aspect I object to. I still think it's pretty
pointless to judge a dog on appearance (expecially when you see those
poor little fluffy things with ribbons in their hair, ugh, or poodles
shaved into bizarre shapes, what IS that all about?!). But, if the dog
is happy enough to go along with walking around showing off to its
owner for a treat then there's not much to complain about. I can't see
a cat getting anything out of being shown. The ones I saw didn't look
too pleased about it anyway.

Tiners
April 28th 04, 01:23 PM
Heya

Poodles are clipped that way because they are water dogs. The poofs on the
hips are there to protect the hips from the cold. The poof on the tail is
to act like a rudder. You wanna see a good movie spoofing Dog Shows you
gotta rent Best in Show. I feel it explains alot about what goes on in a
dog show. It's got the mom from American Pie, Eugene Levy from American
Pie, Parker Posey I've seen her in a bunch of things. After you get Best in
Show go and get A Mighty Wind. It's another what they call Mockumentry.
Their both good movies in my opionion and Best in Show even explains why the
poodle is clipped the way it's clipped.

Tina


--
---
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum --
I think that I think,
therefore I think that I am.
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:55:59 -0500, Cheryl
> > wrote:
>
> >Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
> on 27 Apr 2004:
> >
> >> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> >> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> >> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> >> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
> >
> >Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.
>
> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
> That's the barbaric aspect I object to. I still think it's pretty
> pointless to judge a dog on appearance (expecially when you see those
> poor little fluffy things with ribbons in their hair, ugh, or poodles
> shaved into bizarre shapes, what IS that all about?!). But, if the dog
> is happy enough to go along with walking around showing off to its
> owner for a treat then there's not much to complain about. I can't see
> a cat getting anything out of being shown. The ones I saw didn't look
> too pleased about it anyway.

Tiners
April 28th 04, 01:23 PM
Heya

Poodles are clipped that way because they are water dogs. The poofs on the
hips are there to protect the hips from the cold. The poof on the tail is
to act like a rudder. You wanna see a good movie spoofing Dog Shows you
gotta rent Best in Show. I feel it explains alot about what goes on in a
dog show. It's got the mom from American Pie, Eugene Levy from American
Pie, Parker Posey I've seen her in a bunch of things. After you get Best in
Show go and get A Mighty Wind. It's another what they call Mockumentry.
Their both good movies in my opionion and Best in Show even explains why the
poodle is clipped the way it's clipped.

Tina


--
---
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum --
I think that I think,
therefore I think that I am.
"Kristine Kochanski" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:55:59 -0500, Cheryl
> > wrote:
>
> >Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
> on 27 Apr 2004:
> >
> >> Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
> >> cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
> >> chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
> >> still be doing in this so-called civilised world.
> >
> >Do you have any opinion on dog shows? Just curious.
>
> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
> That's the barbaric aspect I object to. I still think it's pretty
> pointless to judge a dog on appearance (expecially when you see those
> poor little fluffy things with ribbons in their hair, ugh, or poodles
> shaved into bizarre shapes, what IS that all about?!). But, if the dog
> is happy enough to go along with walking around showing off to its
> owner for a treat then there's not much to complain about. I can't see
> a cat getting anything out of being shown. The ones I saw didn't look
> too pleased about it anyway.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 01:50 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:23:35 GMT, "Tiners" >
wrote:

>Heya
>
>Poodles are clipped that way because they are water dogs. The poofs on the
>hips are there to protect the hips from the cold. The poof on the tail is
>to act like a rudder.

I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
intended tbh.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 01:50 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:23:35 GMT, "Tiners" >
wrote:

>Heya
>
>Poodles are clipped that way because they are water dogs. The poofs on the
>hips are there to protect the hips from the cold. The poof on the tail is
>to act like a rudder.

I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
intended tbh.

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:45 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> >
> I have never seen a muzzled police dog. Are we talking about UK now or
> USA?

Both. This was quite some time ago, though.
Not now.


> The dog I mentioned was not 15 years ago at all. It was only a matter
> of some 3 or 4 years ago.

Where? Did you report it as abuse?
I'd be pretty upset if I saw someone using those techniques. They're old
school and totally uncalled for.

> I personally don't watch American trash thanks.

Now, now. No need for being mean.


--
--
~kaeli~
Persons disagreeing with facts are always emotional and
employ faulty reasoning.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:45 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> >
> I have never seen a muzzled police dog. Are we talking about UK now or
> USA?

Both. This was quite some time ago, though.
Not now.


> The dog I mentioned was not 15 years ago at all. It was only a matter
> of some 3 or 4 years ago.

Where? Did you report it as abuse?
I'd be pretty upset if I saw someone using those techniques. They're old
school and totally uncalled for.

> I personally don't watch American trash thanks.

Now, now. No need for being mean.


--
--
~kaeli~
Persons disagreeing with facts are always emotional and
employ faulty reasoning.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:49 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
> water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
> blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
> intended tbh.

Nature didn't intend anything.
We bred them.

Those cuts are for show dogs and working dogs. The vast majority of
Poodles (at least here in the States) are kept in a puppy, or lamb, cut.

As to the dyeing, I've no clue. I don't like it at all.

Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
The aren't that vain IME. *G*

--
--
~kaeli~
Persons disagreeing with facts are always emotional and
employ faulty reasoning.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:49 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
> water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
> blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
> intended tbh.

Nature didn't intend anything.
We bred them.

Those cuts are for show dogs and working dogs. The vast majority of
Poodles (at least here in the States) are kept in a puppy, or lamb, cut.

As to the dyeing, I've no clue. I don't like it at all.

Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
The aren't that vain IME. *G*

--
--
~kaeli~
Persons disagreeing with facts are always emotional and
employ faulty reasoning.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:52 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.

Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

I'm sure the dogs are happier than the cats about shows, though. You
know what they say about dogs, right?
Dog thought:
Oh, breakfast! My favorite!
Oh, Daddy, my favorite!
Oh, the car, my favorite!
and so on. *LOL*


--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:52 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
>
> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.

Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

I'm sure the dogs are happier than the cats about shows, though. You
know what they say about dogs, right?
Dog thought:
Oh, breakfast! My favorite!
Oh, Daddy, my favorite!
Oh, the car, my favorite!
and so on. *LOL*


--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:55 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> newsgroups.
>
>

Not me.
I just hit reply to your post. Either you or someone you replied to did,
or someone they replied to did, etc.

The original message (I think, looking at my archives), with headers, I
replied to:

Subject: Re: cat shows
From: good golly Ms Molly >
Newsgroups: uk.rec.pets.misc, rec.pets.cats.misc
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-431.newsdawg.com
Path: netnews.proxy.lucent.com!ash.uu.net!priapus.visi.c om!
orange.octanews.net!news.octanews.net!green.octane ws.net!news-
out.octanews.net!news.glorb.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!
newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
Message-ID: >

You were replying to Kristine from your quote attributes.

--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:55 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> newsgroups.
>
>

Not me.
I just hit reply to your post. Either you or someone you replied to did,
or someone they replied to did, etc.

The original message (I think, looking at my archives), with headers, I
replied to:

Subject: Re: cat shows
From: good golly Ms Molly >
Newsgroups: uk.rec.pets.misc, rec.pets.cats.misc
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-431.newsdawg.com
Path: netnews.proxy.lucent.com!ash.uu.net!priapus.visi.c om!
orange.octanews.net!news.octanews.net!green.octane ws.net!news-
out.octanews.net!news.glorb.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!
newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
Message-ID: >

You were replying to Kristine from your quote attributes.

--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:56 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...

> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> newsgroups.
>
>

Note: my newsserver doesn't even carry uk.rec.pets.misc. I just noticed
that.

--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 02:56 PM
In article >, oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...

> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> newsgroups.
>
>

Note: my newsserver doesn't even carry uk.rec.pets.misc. I just noticed
that.

--
--
~kaeli~
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:15 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>>
>> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
>
>Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
>for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
(and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
24/7 in.

>(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
>the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

>I'm sure the dogs are happier than the cats about shows, though. You
>know what they say about dogs, right?
>Dog thought:
>Oh, breakfast! My favorite!
>Oh, Daddy, my favorite!
>Oh, the car, my favorite!
>and so on. *LOL*

:-D

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:15 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>>
>> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
>
>Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
>for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
(and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
24/7 in.

>(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
>the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

>I'm sure the dogs are happier than the cats about shows, though. You
>know what they say about dogs, right?
>Dog thought:
>Oh, breakfast! My favorite!
>Oh, Daddy, my favorite!
>Oh, the car, my favorite!
>and so on. *LOL*

:-D

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:18 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:49:09 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>> I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
>> water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
>> blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
>> intended tbh.
>
>Nature didn't intend anything.
>We bred them.

Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

>Those cuts are for show dogs and working dogs. The vast majority of
>Poodles (at least here in the States) are kept in a puppy, or lamb, cut.
>
>As to the dyeing, I've no clue. I don't like it at all.
>
>Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
>The aren't that vain IME. *G*

Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
heheh.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:18 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:49:09 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...
>> I appreciate the ethos behind it, but how many clipped poodles are
>> water dogs as opposed to pets? And why do some people dye them pink or
>> blue, it's horrible. Poor doggies. I'd rather see them as nature
>> intended tbh.
>
>Nature didn't intend anything.
>We bred them.

Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

>Those cuts are for show dogs and working dogs. The vast majority of
>Poodles (at least here in the States) are kept in a puppy, or lamb, cut.
>
>As to the dyeing, I've no clue. I don't like it at all.
>
>Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
>The aren't that vain IME. *G*

Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
heheh.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:19 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >, oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
>> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
>> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
>> newsgroups.
>>
>>
>
>Not me.

I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
if you don't like it.

Kristine Kochanski
April 28th 04, 03:19 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >, oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
>> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
>> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
>> newsgroups.
>>
>>
>
>Not me.

I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
if you don't like it.

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:44 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> >Nature didn't intend anything.
> >We bred them.
>
> Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
> creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

Have you seen the studies on dogs that show that if left alone and wild,
dogs revert back to smallish, dun-colored, erect eared, dingo-ish
looking dogs?
I thought that was kinda neat.
Feral and wild dogs the world over tend to all have that same look.

> >
> >Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
> >The aren't that vain IME. *G*
>
> Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
> Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
> he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
> heheh.
>

*LOL*
My neighbor has a Newfie that he gets practically shaved in the summer,
but he doesn't seem to notice it much. I've never seen such a care-free
dog. That dog is so calm, the Apocolypse could come and go and he would
just lie there, basking in the sun. *g*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:44 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> >
> >Nature didn't intend anything.
> >We bred them.
>
> Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
> creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

Have you seen the studies on dogs that show that if left alone and wild,
dogs revert back to smallish, dun-colored, erect eared, dingo-ish
looking dogs?
I thought that was kinda neat.
Feral and wild dogs the world over tend to all have that same look.

> >
> >Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
> >The aren't that vain IME. *G*
>
> Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
> Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
> he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
> heheh.
>

*LOL*
My neighbor has a Newfie that he gets practically shaved in the summer,
but he doesn't seem to notice it much. I've never seen such a care-free
dog. That dog is so calm, the Apocolypse could come and go and he would
just lie there, basking in the sun. *g*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> >>
> >> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
> >
> >Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
> >for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).
>
> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
> with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
> (and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
> protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
> isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
> 24/7 in.
>

I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
*heh*

Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
aggressive.

I was reading a book called "The Other Side of the Leash" that made the
point really well.

> >(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
> >the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.
>
> Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
> showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
> They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
> There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
happier with the whole thing.
I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.
See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:54 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> enlightened us with...
> >>
> >> Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.
> >
> >Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
> >for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).
>
> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
> with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
> (and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
> protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
> isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
> 24/7 in.
>

I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
*heh*

Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
aggressive.

I was reading a book called "The Other Side of the Leash" that made the
point really well.

> >(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
> >the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.
>
> Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
> showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
> They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
> There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
happier with the whole thing.
I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.
See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:55 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, oldmolly1955
> enlightened us with...
> >> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> >> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> >> newsgroups.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not me.
>
> I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
> groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
> if you don't like it.
>

Who said I didn't? I don't give a darn. ;)

(you replied to my post)

--
--
~kaeli~
A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli
April 28th 04, 06:55 PM
In article >,
enlightened us with...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, oldmolly1955
> enlightened us with...
> >> Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
> >> about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
> >> newsgroups.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not me.
>
> I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
> groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
> if you don't like it.
>

Who said I didn't? I don't give a darn. ;)

(you replied to my post)

--
--
~kaeli~
A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Cheryl
April 29th 04, 01:58 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:

> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
> with their owners.

This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
with dogs?

--
Cheryl

Cheryl
April 29th 04, 01:58 AM
Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:

> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
> with their owners.

This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
with dogs?

--
Cheryl

Kristine Kochanski
April 29th 04, 02:48 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:58:04 -0500, Cheryl
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:
>
>> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
>> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
>> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
>> with their owners.
>
>This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
>adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
>they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
>Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
>being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
>that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
>with dogs?

I totally agree that it's only 'normal' because we;ve made it that way
but it's probably that way reason - ie that dogs' natural behaviour
makes them easier to train.

I don't know, might be wrong. I walk my cats on leads and people think
it's insane/cruel yet they think it's normal for people to walk dogs
on leads (!), so I see where you're coming from. But I think there are
also more limitations, eg. cats get much more easily spooked than
dogs, so I wouldn't go into a busy area, or risk a dog attacking it.

Kristine Kochanski
April 29th 04, 02:48 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:58:04 -0500, Cheryl
> wrote:

>Kristine Kochanski > dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:
>
>> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
>> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
>> from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
>> with their owners.
>
>This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
>adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
>they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
>Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
>being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
>that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
>with dogs?

I totally agree that it's only 'normal' because we;ve made it that way
but it's probably that way reason - ie that dogs' natural behaviour
makes them easier to train.

I don't know, might be wrong. I walk my cats on leads and people think
it's insane/cruel yet they think it's normal for people to walk dogs
on leads (!), so I see where you're coming from. But I think there are
also more limitations, eg. cats get much more easily spooked than
dogs, so I wouldn't go into a busy area, or risk a dog attacking it.

Kristine Kochanski
April 29th 04, 02:59 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:54:56 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...

>> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
>> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
>> from it.
>
>I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
>but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
>My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
>8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
>*heh*

Same here, I have one that howls to be let out, her littermate doesn't
enjoy the outside world at all and would much rather find a nice warm
windowsill to sit on and watch the world go by. They each have their
own little personalities :o)

>Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
>just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
>more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
>sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
>to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
>aggressive.

I guess so :o( Any animal is shaped by its experiences. I had to stop
watching those 'pet rescue' type programmes, far too upsetting.

>> Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
>> showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
>> They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
>> There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.
>
>Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
>happier with the whole thing.
>I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
>the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
>small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
>that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

Heheh, yeah, they prefer the cage to being outside the cage in a
strange place, but if they're stressed by being away from home I think
people should question whether it's in the cat's interest to put it
through that, for the sake of saying 'look at my lovely cat'. Be
content just knowing that your cat is the most beautiful one in the
world! I know mine are ;o)

>We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
>dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
>places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
>feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
>had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
>for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.

They only seem to think of them as safe places if they enter
themselves though - ever tried getting a cat in a box to go to the
vet? ;o) Then you get them to the vet and you can't get them back out
the bloody thing! Fickle little monsters.

>See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
>humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
>dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
>Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
>repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

Heheh, I'll try track that book down, thanks for the recommendation!

Kristine Kochanski
April 29th 04, 02:59 PM
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:54:56 -0500, kaeli
> wrote:

>In article >,
enlightened us with...

>> I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
>> obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
>> from it.
>
>I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
>but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
>My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
>8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
>*heh*

Same here, I have one that howls to be let out, her littermate doesn't
enjoy the outside world at all and would much rather find a nice warm
windowsill to sit on and watch the world go by. They each have their
own little personalities :o)

>Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
>just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
>more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
>sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
>to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
>aggressive.

I guess so :o( Any animal is shaped by its experiences. I had to stop
watching those 'pet rescue' type programmes, far too upsetting.

>> Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
>> showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
>> They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
>> There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.
>
>Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
>happier with the whole thing.
>I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
>the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
>small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
>that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

Heheh, yeah, they prefer the cage to being outside the cage in a
strange place, but if they're stressed by being away from home I think
people should question whether it's in the cat's interest to put it
through that, for the sake of saying 'look at my lovely cat'. Be
content just knowing that your cat is the most beautiful one in the
world! I know mine are ;o)

>We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
>dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
>places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
>feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
>had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
>for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.

They only seem to think of them as safe places if they enter
themselves though - ever tried getting a cat in a box to go to the
vet? ;o) Then you get them to the vet and you can't get them back out
the bloody thing! Fickle little monsters.

>See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
>humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
>dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
>Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
>repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

Heheh, I'll try track that book down, thanks for the recommendation!