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deet
September 17th 05, 09:49 PM
My vet has prescribed Hill's K-D food with chicken for my 8 year old
siamese cat. The only way I can get her to eat it is to mix in some
low sodium " people " tuna. I mix 1 part tuna to 2 parts K-D.

Is the tuna over-riding the benefits if K-D? And, what are the
benefits of K-D? Is there another way to provide those benefits?

TIA
__
Deet
l

Phil P.
September 17th 05, 10:16 PM
<deet> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> My vet has prescribed Hill's K-D food with chicken for my 8 year old
> siamese cat. The only way I can get her to eat it is to mix in some
> low sodium " people " tuna. I mix 1 part tuna to 2 parts K-D.

I hope you haven't been using using tuna packed in oil.


>
> Is the tuna over-riding the benefits if K-D?


Absolutely! The phosphorus in tuna is way too high for a cat with CRF. k/d
is specifically formulated to contain *low* phosphorus. In addition to the
phosphorus being too high, the calcium in tuna is way too low. This causes
an imbalance in the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of *both* foods. The
protein content is also much to high for a renal cat. Cats with CRF are not
capable of eliminating the waste products of protein catabolism as
efficiently as a healthy cat. This can result in a build up of uremic
toxins in the blood and feeling of sickness- which can lead to inappetence.

http://www.maxshouse.com/Tuna_and_Cats_Nutritional_Facts.htm

And, what are the
> benefits of K-D?


Low acidity, phosphorus, sodium, protein (although protein should not be
restricted until the BUN reaches 60-80 mg/dl).


> Is there another way to provide those benefits?

Prescription Diet x/d with Chicken. Its more palatable, higher protein and
provides similar benefits as k/d.


Phil

September 17th 05, 11:40 PM
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:16:19 -0400, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
><deet> wrote in message news:[email protected]
>> My vet has prescribed Hill's K-D food with chicken for my 8 year old
>> siamese cat. The only way I can get her to eat it is to mix in some
>> low sodium " people " tuna. I mix 1 part tuna to 2 parts K-D.
>
>I hope you haven't been using using tuna packed in oil.

No- Just water and I drain the liquid and then rinse it a couple of
times with plain water.

>> Is the tuna over-riding the benefits if K-D?

>Absolutely! The phosphorus in tuna is way too high for a cat with CRF. k/d
>is specifically formulated to contain *low* phosphorus. In addition to the
>phosphorus being too high, the calcium in tuna is way too low. This causes
>an imbalance in the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of *both* foods. The
>protein content is also much to high for a renal cat. Cats with CRF are not
>capable of eliminating the waste products of protein catabolism as
>efficiently as a healthy cat. This can result in a build up of uremic
>toxins in the blood and feeling of sickness- which can lead to inappetence.
>
>http://www.maxshouse.com/Tuna_and_Cats_Nutritional_Facts.htm
>
{snip)
>
>Prescription Diet x/d with Chicken. Its more palatable, higher protein and
>provides similar benefits as k/d.
>
>
>Phil
>
Thank you so much Phil--I'll stop the tuna right away and check with
my vet about the x/d . Now that I know the tuna is harmful, it will
be easier to bear hearing her complaints.

deet
--

Phil P.
September 18th 05, 10:56 AM
> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:16:19 -0400, "Phil P." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> ><deet> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> >> My vet has prescribed Hill's K-D food with chicken for my 8 year old
> >> siamese cat. The only way I can get her to eat it is to mix in some
> >> low sodium " people " tuna. I mix 1 part tuna to 2 parts K-D.
> >
> >I hope you haven't been using tuna packed in oil.
>
> No- Just water and I drain the liquid and then rinse it a couple of
> times with plain water.
>
> >> Is the tuna over-riding the benefits if K-D?
>
> >Absolutely! The phosphorus in tuna is way too high for a cat with CRF.
k/d
> >is specifically formulated to contain *low* phosphorus. In addition to
the
> >phosphorus being too high, the calcium in tuna is way too low. This
causes
> >an imbalance in the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of *both* foods. The
> >protein content is also much to high for a renal cat. Cats with CRF are
not
> >capable of eliminating the waste products of protein catabolism as
> >efficiently as a healthy cat. This can result in a build up of uremic
> >toxins in the blood and feeling of sickness- which can lead to
inappetence.
> >
> >http://www.maxshouse.com/Tuna_and_Cats_Nutritional_Facts.htm
> >
> {snip)
> >
> >Prescription Diet x/d with Chicken. Its more palatable, higher protein
and
> >provides similar benefits as k/d.
> >
> >
> >Phil
> >
> Thank you so much Phil--I'll stop the tuna right away and check with
> my vet about the x/d . Now that I know the tuna is harmful, it will
> be easier to bear hearing her complaints.
>
> deet


The most important thing is that she eats. It doesn't matter how perfectly
formulated a special diet is if the cat won't eat it. Sometimes we must
make compromises and choose the lesser of the evils. Several regular
maintenance diets are low in phosphorus but unfortunately most are
acidified- which isn't very good for a renal cat. There are ways to counter
this effect but playing with a formulated diet can be very dangerous unless
you know exactly what you're doing.

If your cat won't eat any of the commercially available kidney diets
(several manufacturers make renal diets), the next best thing is a diet that
contains the lowest phosphorus and sodium you can find.

Best of luck,

Phil

September 18th 05, 05:49 PM
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 05:56:01 -0400, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
> wrote in message news:[email protected]
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:16:19 -0400, "Phil P." >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >(snip).
>> >
>> >http://www.maxshouse.com/Tuna_and_Cats_Nutritional_Facts.htm
>> >
>> {snip)
>> >
>> >Prescription Diet x/d with Chicken. Its more palatable, higher protein
>and
>> >provides similar benefits as k/d.
>> >(snip)
>
>
>The most important thing is that she eats. It doesn't matter how perfectly
>formulated a special diet is if the cat won't eat it. Sometimes we must
>make compromises and choose the lesser of the evils. Several regular
>maintenance diets are low in phosphorus but unfortunately most are
>acidified- which isn't very good for a renal cat. There are ways to counter
>this effect but playing with a formulated diet can be very dangerous unless
>you know exactly what you're doing.
>
>If your cat won't eat any of the commercially available kidney diets
>(several manufacturers make renal diets), the next best thing is a diet that
>contains the lowest phosphorus and sodium you can find.
>
>Best of luck,
>
>Phil
>
Thanks for the info. Incidentally, I went to your web site--it's
great, --very informative.

My vet isn't available on weekends, so I haven't been able to see if
he can get some of the x/d you recommended.
>
In the meantime, I have done a little experimenting to see what Miss
Purry will eat. The Hill's prescription K-D is untouchable without
tuna. However, she will eat Fancy Feast turkey and giblets
and Sheba roast turkey. In order to jump-start her into tasting
the food, I sprinkle it with chopped boiled chicken thighs or
breasts.

Once again Thanks.

__
Deet

Phil P.
September 18th 05, 08:52 PM
> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> Thanks for the info. Incidentally, I went to your web site--it's
> great, --very informative.
>
> My vet isn't available on weekends, so I haven't been able to see if
> he can get some of the x/d you recommended.
> >
> In the meantime, I have done a little experimenting to see what Miss
> Purry will eat. The Hill's prescription K-D is untouchable without
> tuna. However, she will eat Fancy Feast turkey and giblets

The phosphorus content of FF Turkey & Giblets is is far, *far*, too high
(0.45% AF/20.45% DMB)for a cat with CRF- or *any* cat for that matter. Try
the Science Diet Turkey & Giblets- much lower in phosphorus. In fact, all
the Science Diet formulas are low in phosphorus.

If your cat won't eat SD, The FF Marinated Chicken Feast, Marinated Beef
Feast, Marinated Salmon, Grilled Chicken Feast in Gravy, Minced Beef Feast,
Sliced Beef Feast, Sliced Beef & Giblets Feast, are all very low in
phosphorus. Be sure to read the labels carefully- Fancy Feast has several
product lines (e.g., Grilled, Marinated, Flaked, Roasted, Sliced, etc.) with
similar diet names.

Try the SD first.

Good luck,

Phil

September 18th 05, 10:00 PM
wrote:
> and Sheba roast turkey. In order to jump-start her into tasting
> the food, I sprinkle it with chopped boiled chicken thighs or
> breasts.

Heh wait, if she eats that, I remember running across diets that
Science Diet made for people willing to cook in their own homes if the
cats would not eat the commercial canned food. Since your cat will
already eat what you cook, you could make it pretty good for her if
necessary. I've tried with middling success but since my cat does not
have any special needs, it's not crucial - which is nice since I'm not
really setup for making foods like this, at this time.


http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

Go there for all the diets! i did not include the Hypoallergenic Diet
and the Reducing Diet since they might prefer you to go their home
page. It will list how much to feed and the breakdown of the food.
Interesting, yes?

http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

Recipes for Homemade Diets - Feline
retyped and annotated by: Vick

We've included these diets for those who would like to home cook for
their special needs pets but don't know what or how. Hill's Science
Diet provides recipes for homemade versions of their prescription diets
to clients whose pets wouldn't eat the canned or dry versions of their
Prescription Diets. The sheet these recipes came from is Copyright by
Hill's Pet Products, 1989.

* Feline Restricted Protein Diet
* Feline Reducing Diet
* Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium Diet
* Feline Hypoallergenic Diet

Feline Restricted Protein Diet:

* 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
* 2 cups cooked white rice without salt
* 2 large hard cooked eggs, finely chopped
* 1 tablespoon vegetable oil
* 1 teaspoon (5 grams) calcium carbonate (health food stores or
ground egg shells)
* 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all
vitamins and minerals and 250 mg taurine/day.

Dice and braise the meat retaining the fat. Combine all ingredients and
mix well. Add water (not milk) as necessary to increase palatability.
Keep extra food covered in refrigerator.

A restricted protein Prescription Diet food, Feline k/d is available in
canned and dry formulas. Please call your vet's office if you have any
questions.


Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium Diet

* 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
* 1 lb. Ground beef, cooked
* 1 cup cooked white rice without salt
* 1 teaspoon vegetable oil
* 1 teaspoon calcium carbonate (health food stores or ground egg
shells)
* 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all
vitamins and minerals and 250 mg taurine/day.

Cook the meat. Stir in remaining ingredients and mix well. Keep extra
food covered in refrigerator.

Yields 1 3/4 lbs.

A mineral restricted Prescription Diet food, Feline c/d is available in
canned and dry formulas. Please call your vet's office if you have any
questions.

Deet
September 18th 05, 11:17 PM
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 15:52:46 -0400, "Phil P." >
wrote:

(skip)
>
>Try the SD first.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Phil

I'll try the SD first. and fortunately, if she won't eat that, she
likes some of the FF foods you listed.

Also I will check through the Hills recipes posted here by Treeline
12345. I know Miss Purry loves chicken liver.

Thanks again.

__
Deet

Deet
September 18th 05, 11:32 PM
On 18 Sep 2005 14:00:57 -0700, "
> wrote:

wrote:
In order to jump-start her into tasting
the food, I sprinkle it with chopped boiled chicken thighs or
breasts.

>Heh wait, if she eats that, I remember running across diets that
>Science Diet made for people willing to cook in their own homes if the
>cats would not eat the commercial canned food. Since your cat will
>already eat what you cook, you could make it pretty good for her if
>necessary. I've tried with middling success but since my cat does not
>have any special needs, it's not crucial - which is nice since I'm not
>really setup for making foods like this, at this time.
>
>
>http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d
>
>Go there for all the diets! i did not include the Hypoallergenic Diet
>and the Reducing Diet since they might prefer you to go their home
>page. It will list how much to feed and the breakdown of the food.
>Interesting, yes?
>
>http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d
>
(snip)

Hi Treeline 12345:

My cat loves chicken liver--and there's a healthfood store nearby that
carries some supplements for animals. I hope they come in liquid
form, because getting a pill down her is a huge production. Ms. Purry
is a "retired" siamese I got from a cattery a little over two years
ago, and we've adjusted to each other pretty well, I just can't clip
her claws or "pill" her. My vet takes care of those two minor
things.

Thanks so much for your help,

__
Deet

Cheryl
September 19th 05, 12:30 AM
On Sun 18 Sep 2005 05:00:57p, wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
ups.com):

> Heh wait, if she eats that, I remember running across diets that
> Science Diet made for people willing to cook in their own homes
> if the cats would not eat the commercial canned food. Since your
> cat will already eat what you cook, you could make it pretty
> good for her if necessary. I've tried with middling success but
> since my cat does not have any special needs, it's not crucial -
> which is nice since I'm not really setup for making foods like
> this, at this time.
>
>
> http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

Thanks for posting this link. I've had need to make homemade cat food
many times, so these are going in my recipe archive. Very helpful
indeed!

--
Cheryl

September 19th 05, 12:45 AM
Cheryl wrote:
> On Sun 18 Sep 2005 05:00:57p, wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> ups.com):
>
> > Heh wait, if she eats that, I remember running across diets that
> > Science Diet made for people willing to cook in their own homes
> > if the cats would not eat the commercial canned food. Since your
> > cat will already eat what you cook, you could make it pretty
> > good for her if necessary. I've tried with middling success but
> > since my cat does not have any special needs, it's not crucial -
> > which is nice since I'm not really setup for making foods like
> > this, at this time.
> >
> >
> > http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d
>
> Thanks for posting this link. I've had need to make homemade cat food
> many times, so these are going in my recipe archive. Very helpful
> indeed!
>
> --
> Cheryl

Glad it helps. I was happy to see a menu that is purportedly from
Science Diet, even if a bit old. I get nervous when people make up
their own menus but I might want to double-check this menu against
Science Diet now. The amounts to be fed are ridiculous, off by twice
for a 10-pound cat. Maybe they meant a 20-pound cat and just get
everything all confused.

As I posted just now but it's not appearing, be careful of the amount
to be fed. It seems that it's off by at least two times! I can't
imagine feeding a 10 pound neutered house-cat near a 2/3's pound of
chicken liver or over 400 kcals per day. I don't think a 10 pound cat
could eat that much. So I'm a little suspicious about the care they
took to type in the menus. But it seems reasonable. But less than 200
kcals or 1/3 of a pound as even their k/d suggests on the can - and
that's not taking into account activity levels? I might feed a slightly
overweight, inactive cat less. And I would double-check. Chicken liver
is okay but everyday? Might be. I used to feed an epileptic cat chicken
livers for when I was taking care of her and she needed a boost. Easy
and fast to cook. I don't remember if her owners fed her that long term.

September 19th 05, 12:55 AM
Deet wrote:
> >http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d
> My cat loves chicken liver--and there's a healthfood store nearby that
> carries some supplements for animals. I hope they come in liquid
> form, because getting a pill down her is a huge production. Ms. Purry
> is a "retired" siamese I got from a cattery a little over two years
> ago, and we've adjusted to each other pretty well, I just can't clip
> her claws or "pill" her. My vet takes care of those two minor
> things.

I forgot to add, pill her? What for? You can get a really cheap mortar
and pestle thingee from the drugstore, (screws the pill into
smithereens) a few dollars and it will "pillverize" any pill so you can
sprinkle it on the food. With luck, it won't taste funny. I can't
imagine supplements coming in pill form, probably to be sprinkled?
Pilling a cat? I used to do that but it's a hassle. And liquid
supplements, hmmm, maybe.

Clipping her claws? I bought all sorts of clippers and forgot about
them. My cat chews her claws when they get chewable. I don't clip her
claws. She wears them down somehow. Although I played with her toes
when she was in my lap sleeping and she awoke with a start and screamed
and shredded my thighs. But that's rare and my mistake. Now I wear
pants if playing with her toes while she is sleeping.

September 19th 05, 01:02 AM
Deet wrote:
> >Heh wait, if she eats that, I remember running across diets that
> >Science Diet made for people willing to cook in their own homes if the
> >cats would not eat the commercial canned food. Since your cat will
> >already eat what you cook, you could make it pretty good for her if
> >necessary. I've tried with middling success but since my cat does not
> >have any special needs, it's not crucial - which is nice since I'm not
> >really setup for making foods like this, at this time.
> >
> >Go there for all the diets! i did not include the Hypoallergenic Diet
> >and the Reducing Diet since they might prefer you to go their home
> >page. It will list how much to feed and the breakdown of the food.
> >Interesting, yes?
> >
> >http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

> (snip)

> Hi Treeline 12345:

> My cat loves chicken liver--and there's a healthfood store nearby that
> carries some supplements for animals. I hope they come in liquid
> form, because getting a pill down her is a huge production. Ms. Purry
> is a "retired" siamese I got from a cattery a little over two years
> ago, and we've adjusted to each other pretty well, I just can't clip
> her claws or "pill" her. My vet takes care of those two minor
> things.
>
> Thanks so much for your help,

That's good. I just re-read the pages. Their kcals seems sky high. 424
kcals for 10 pound cat - 2/3's pound using 635 kcals/pound? Whoa, that
seems more than twice the amount really needed, more than three times.
Hmmm. Their recommended 1 can or so for k/d is only 200 kcals per day,
which is better, even less I would suspect depending on the cat, if
neutered, activity level, and so on.

I wonder if somebody goofed? Might want to double-check with
hillspet.com. Their Prescription Diet k/d, is around 200 kcals or 200+
or 1/2 that amount, to repeat myself. 2/3's of a pound of chicken liver
just seems way out of whack for a 10-pound cat. Glad I double-checked.
If it works, that's good.

Anyway it's a start if it passes muster. I get nervous when I re-read
something and there's a big mistake, if you know what I mean. But the
menus seem okay and easier than other menus I have read.

My own particular cat does not like my cooking for the most part.

Cheryl
September 19th 05, 01:06 AM
On Sun 18 Sep 2005 07:45:47p, wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
roups.com):

> Chicken liver
> is okay but everyday? Might be. I used to feed an epileptic cat
> chicken livers for when I was taking care of her and she needed
> a boost. Easy and fast to cook. I don't remember if her owners
> fed her that long term.
>

Amounts fed aside, (and you have a good point, but it's just the same
as taking the amounts to feed from a can or bag - do your own
research) I wouldn't feed liver everyday. I think it can cause an
overdose of vitamin A. But these recipes if nothing else, can provide
some diversity when you have a picky cat. I'd also be careful of the
supplements used, especially in a hyperallergenic diet. But all in
all, this is a good reference for homemade food.

--
Cheryl

deet
September 19th 05, 08:48 PM
On 18 Sep 2005 16:55:05 -0700, "
> wrote:



>
>I forgot to add, pill her? What for? You can get a really cheap mortar
>and pestle thingee from the drugstore, (screws the pill into
>smithereens) a few dollars and it will "pillverize" any pill so you can
>sprinkle it on the food. With luck, it won't taste funny. I can't
>imagine supplements coming in pill form, probably to be sprinkled?
>Pilling a cat? I used to do that but it's a hassle. And liquid
>supplements, hmmm, maybe.
(snip)

I had to pill her once a day for 5 days--or it might have been twice a
day. The medication was Lincocin--an all purpose antibiotic, for
upper respiratory congestion.

Again, thanks for your help,
__
Deet