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paulfoel
October 31st 05, 07:06 PM
Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
about 6 months.

6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up
quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full
of fluid and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were
done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative.
We had x-rays and scans done but nothing could be found (due possibly
to the fluid).

At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped
down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the
time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though.

As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses
of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If
anything hes got even more swollen.

Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through
the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly
anxious about food.

Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is
happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in
the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house).
Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont
go outside.

Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about
that idea.

He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its
time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more.

Anyone got any comments?

cybercat
October 31st 05, 07:44 PM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
> about 6 months.
>
> 6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up
> quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full
> of fluid and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were
> done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative.
> We had x-rays and scans done but nothing could be found (due possibly
> to the fluid).
>
> At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped
> down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the
> time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though.
>
> As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses
> of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If
> anything hes got even more swollen.
>
> Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through
> the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly
> anxious about food.
>
> Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is
> happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in
> the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house).
> Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont
> go outside.
>
> Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about
> that idea.
>
> He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its
> time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more.
>
> Anyone got any comments?
>

If I were in your place I would take him to another vet before I made
any decisions. You haven't even gotten a diagnosis from your vet.

October 31st 05, 08:52 PM
>As the months have gone on the vets
>have tried him on increasing doses of
>steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but
>nothing has worked. If anything hes got
>even more swollen.
>Hes now having a little difficulty gettung
>around and wont fit through the catflap.
>Also, he seems to be getting more hungry
>and increasingly anxious about food.

Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would
think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A
medication such as Lasix is an appropriate drug for this use. Steroids
also stimluate the appetite, which would explain your cat's anxiousness
about food.
You need to find another vet ASAP, preferably an internal medicine
specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you
are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good.

Megan



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No More Retail
October 31st 05, 08:58 PM
I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since
nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray
I might be time for another x-ray with a little more slow paced tech
getting in all the angles. I won't say anything about money but is there
a animal surgical center in your area It might be in the cats' best
interest to take him to him there where more than one vet can take a look
and they usually have the proper equipment to do a diagnoses

I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or
the cat is pain when moving

Joe Canuck
October 31st 05, 10:07 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "paulfoel" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
>>about 6 months.
>>
>>6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up
>>quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full
>>of fluid and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were
>>done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative.
>>We had x-rays and scans done but nothing could be found (due possibly
>>to the fluid).
>>
>>At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped
>>down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the
>>time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though.
>>
>>As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses
>>of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If
>>anything hes got even more swollen.
>>
>>Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through
>>the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly
>>anxious about food.
>>
>>Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is
>>happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in
>>the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house).
>>Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont
>>go outside.
>>
>>Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about
>>that idea.
>>
>>He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its
>>time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more.
>>
>>Anyone got any comments?
>>
>
>
> If I were in your place I would take him to another vet before I made
> any decisions. You haven't even gotten a diagnosis from your vet.
>
>

Seek a 2nd opinion from another vet.

5cats
November 1st 05, 12:10 AM
paulfoel wrote:

> Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
> about 6 months.
>
> 6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up
> quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full
> of fluid and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were
> done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative.
> We had x-rays and scans done but nothing could be found (due possibly
> to the fluid).
>
> At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped
> down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the
> time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though.
>
> As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses
> of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If
> anything hes got even more swollen.
>
> Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through
> the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly
> anxious about food.
>
> Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is
> happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in
> the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house).
> Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont
> go outside.
>
> Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about
> that idea.
>
> He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its
> time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more.
>
> Anyone got any comments?
>
>

No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second opinion
before making any decisions.

Phil P.
November 1st 05, 09:43 AM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
> about 6 months.
>
> 6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up
> quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full
> of fluid


Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first* and
most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced by
different causes. So, determining the type of fluid might help determine
the cause that's producing the fluid or at least narrow down the
possibilities.

Draining the fluid from his abdomen (abdomenocentesis) will make him feel
much better.



and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were
> done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative.

Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important.


> We had x-rays and scans


By "scans", do you mean ultrasounds? If so, was his heart scanned
(echocardiogram)? If not I suggest getting an echocardiogram. Heart
disease can produce fluid while the bloodwork is normal.



done but nothing could be found (due possibly
> to the fluid).


Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances* sonograms
by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be
positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better
views.


>
> At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped
> down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the
> time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though.
>
> As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses
> of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If
> anything hes got even more swollen.


Without having the fluid analyzed, steroids are a *very* bad idea. I
strongly suggest you find another vet *as soon possible*. Be sure to get a
copy of *all* your cat's medical records.



>
> Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through
> the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly
> anxious about food.

The steroids are probably increasing his appetite- that's one of the side
effects that steroids produce in cats.


>
> Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is
> happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in
> the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house).
> Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont
> go outside.
>
> Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about
> that idea.


He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid
analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*.



>
> He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its
> time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more.

Please don't even consider euthanasia until you get a definitive diagnosis.
His condition is probably treatable under the care of a competent vet- which
your present vet *is not*.



>
> Anyone got any comments?

I would keep him indoors at all times until his condition resolves.


Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an
echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove
most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable.

If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your
area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a
search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American
College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there
is.


If you can't find an ACVIM specialist in your area, my second choice would
be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary
Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/finddiplomate.aspx


Please do not delay in finding another vet.

Best of luck,

Phil

November 1st 05, 12:52 PM
Phil P. wrote:

> Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an
> echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove
> most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable.
>
> If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your
> area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a
> search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American
> College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there
> is.
>
>
> If you can't find an ACVIM specialist in your area, my second choice would
> be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary
> Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/finddiplomate.aspx

The first URL does not work so went with the second. In my state of
Pennsylvania there are only 5 listed for ANY category of animal. And
none in the biggest city of Philadelphia which has the Penn Vet School.
I'm shocked.

http://www.acvim.org/uploadedFiles/pdfs/Directory/SAIM_Geo.pdf

the above lists all the diplomates with ACVIM, small animals, internal
medicine.
and now here there is a huge amount from Philly. what gives?

Is ACVIM more popular and ABVP a rival org? I've noticed for people
rival diplomate ratings, the older American College of Physicians verus
the whatever. And DOs vs MDs with their board ratings. Bunch of quacks.

This is what I did for treating a parrot. Now I found one of two avian
specialists in my state at that time, as I recall, who were board
certified. One was a teacher of board certified vets. She knew her
stuff. But her physical handling was clumsy. So now needed two vets.
One who could handle the delicate birds although not board certified
and one, board certified, who could relish the difficult questions
about treating relatively rare parrots.

paulfoel
November 1st 05, 01:37 PM
> Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first* and
> most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced by
> different causes. So, determining the type of fluid might help determine
> the cause that's producing the fluid or at least narrow down the
> possibilities.

Yes. Nothing found.

> Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important.
>
>
> > We had x-rays and scans
>
>
> By "scans", do you mean ultrasounds? If so, was his heart scanned
> (echocardiogram)? If not I suggest getting an echocardiogram. Heart
> disease can produce fluid while the bloodwork is normal.
>

Ultrasounds.

>
> Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances* sonograms
> by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be
> positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better
> views.
>

Yes. Vet told us this.
>
> He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid
> analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*.
>
> Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an
> echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove
> most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable.

Vet said he is unable to remove the fluid.

>
> If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your
> area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a
> search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American
> College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there
> is.
>

I'm in the UK.

paulfoel
November 1st 05, 01:39 PM
No More Retail wrote:
> I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since
> nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray
> I might be time for another x-ray with a little more slow paced tech
> getting in all the angles. I won't say anything about money but is there
> a animal surgical center in your area It might be in the cats' best
> interest to take him to him there where more than one vet can take a look
> and they usually have the proper equipment to do a diagnoses
>
> I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or
> the cat is pain when moving

I'm in the UK so I dont think theres any such thing as animal surgical
centres. Basically, its just vets.

paulfoel
November 1st 05, 01:41 PM
> Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would
> think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A
> medication such as Lasix is an appropriate drug for this use. Steroids
> also stimluate the appetite, which would explain your cat's anxiousness
> about food.
> You need to find another vet ASAP, preferably an internal medicine
> specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you
> are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good.
>

Perhaps it wasnt steriods then. (although I'm sure it was
prednisalone).

Neil (the cat) was the same with his food before the mediction anyway.

No More Retail
November 1st 05, 04:40 PM
Paul I hope this link helps
http://www.h4ha.org/vetnet/United_Kingdom/6-0.html

Phil P.
November 1st 05, 06:36 PM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first*
and
> > most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced
by
> > different causes. So, determining the type of fluid might help
determine
> > the cause that's producing the fluid or at least narrow down the
> > possibilities.
>
> Yes. Nothing found.


That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid
*analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate,
Modified Transudate, Non Septic Exudate, Septic Exudate, Neoplastic,
Chylous, Hemorrhagic. Certain types of fluids are associated with specific
disease processes. Determining the *type* of fluid might help you identify
the disease that's producing the fluid. Once you identify the disease
that's producing the fluid, you can develop a therapeutic plan to treat the
disease. Your vet should have explained this to you.


>
> > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important.
> >
> >
> > > We had x-rays and scans
> >
> >
> > By "scans", do you mean ultrasounds? If so, was his heart scanned
> > (echocardiogram)? If not I suggest getting an echocardiogram. Heart
> > disease can produce fluid while the bloodwork is normal.
> >
>
> Ultrasounds.


Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed?


>
> >
> > Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances*
sonograms
> > by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be
> > positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better
> > views.
> >
>
> Yes. Vet told us this.


Then your vet is *incompetent*. You better find another vet ASAP before his
incompetence and ignorance kills your cat. The fluid would have *improved*
the sonogram.



> >
> > He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid
> > analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*.
> >
> > Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an
> > echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can
remove
> > most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable.
>
> Vet said he is unable to remove the fluid.


Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is a
*common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)- the
cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized.


>
> >
> > If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your
> > area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a
> > search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area.
American
> > College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best
there
> > is.
> >
>
> I'm in the UK.


Your reply wasn't very informative or encouraging. You need to find another
vet ASAP.

Phil P.
November 1st 05, 06:37 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an
> > echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can
remove
> > most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable.
> >
> > If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your
> > area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a
> > search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area.
American
> > College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best
there
> > is.
> >
> >
> > If you can't find an ACVIM specialist in your area, my second choice
would
> > be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary
> > Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/finddiplomate.aspx
>
> The first URL does not work

Thanks. Here's the new link: http://www.acvim.org/Specialist/Search.aspx


> Is ACVIM more popular and ABVP a rival org?

Yup. ACVIM is more prestigious even though ABVP certification is more
complicated.

ojaeri
November 2nd 05, 01:53 AM
Several things can cause an increased appetite, not just an increased
appetite but a cat always at the food dish, one is a hormonal imbalance
and the other is hyperthyroidism. Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come
from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and
surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's
also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used. The other
thing is that because of that, the body tends to lose the vitamin called
Riboflavin because it uses it up so fast because of hyperthyroidism it
wants more and more and more. It gets hungry for it. Is that what is
happening with your cat? He feels that if he eats and eats and eats he
will satisfy that need for Riboflavin? The fluid accumulation and
enlarged liver could also stem from all of this overeating. The system
just can't take and process all of that food especially in an older cat
or it starts breaking down. If you could find a homeopathic vet in your
area ( www.ahvma.org/referral.html) he or she might be able to find out
whether this is the problem or not. If it is, it's so easily fixed.

ojaeri
November 2nd 05, 04:01 AM
Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area:

www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html

paulfoel
November 2nd 05, 04:02 PM
>
> Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would
> think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A
> medication such as Lasix is an appropriate drug for this use. Steroids
> also stimluate the appetite, which would explain your cat's anxiousness
> about food.
> You need to find another vet ASAP, preferably an internal medicine
> specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you
> are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good.
>

My mistake. Initially diuretics were tried but these had no effect.
Steriods are now been given to treat any possible tumour.

paulfoel
November 2nd 05, 04:05 PM
No More Retail wrote:
> I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since
> nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray
> I might be time for another x-ray with a little more slow paced tech
> getting in all the angles. I won't say anything about money but is there
> a animal surgical center in your area It might be in the cats' best
> interest to take him to him there where more than one vet can take a look
> and they usually have the proper equipment to do a diagnoses
>
> I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or
> the cat is pain when moving

X-ray and ultrsound.

paulfoel
November 2nd 05, 04:07 PM
> No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second opinion
> before making any decisions.

Its actally a laparotomay (spelling!) to get a sample of the liver.

paulfoel
November 2nd 05, 04:11 PM
> That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid
> *analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate,
> Modified Transudate, Non Septic Exudate, Septic Exudate, Neoplastic,
> Chylous, Hemorrhagic. Certain types of fluids are associated with specific
> disease processes. Determining the *type* of fluid might help you identify
> the disease that's producing the fluid. Once you identify the disease
> that's producing the fluid, you can develop a therapeutic plan to treat the
> disease. Your vet should have explained this to you.

Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth
but not sure what else.

>
>
> >
> > > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important.
> > >

Dont' know.

> Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed?

Not the heart.
> Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is a
> *common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)- the
> cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized.
>

something to do with the fluid notbeing all in one place but in
'pockets' ???

paulfoel
November 2nd 05, 04:15 PM
No More Retail wrote:
> Paul I hope this link helps
> http://www.h4ha.org/vetnet/United_Kingdom/6-0.html

Nothing in Wales at all !!!

Lumpy
November 2nd 05, 04:40 PM
"paulfoel" > wrote:

> Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth
> but not sure what else.
>

Paul, if you love this cat and want to save him you need to find
a better vet--a small animal vet, not a cow vet--and pay attention to
what he does and says.

If it is not that important I imagine you will euthanize. But since you
came here for help, I am hoping this cat is important enough to you
that you will put forth the effort and get him the help he needs from
a vet that cares and knows what he is doing.

ojaeri
November 2nd 05, 10:24 PM
Is this of any help?

Park Issa Veterinary Hospital
Tel. 01691 670067 Park Issa Salop Rd, Oswestry, SY11 2RL

Gatehouse Veterinary Hospital
Tel. 01244 570364 Lavister, LL12 0DF


Grange Veterinary Hospital
Tel. 01352 700087 Tyddyn St, Mold, CH7 1DX

http://www.willowsveterinarygroup.co.uk/

Is there a veterinary teaching college in Wales? I couldn't find any
info on one. The closest seems to be in London.

5cats
November 2nd 05, 10:54 PM
paulfoel wrote:

>
>> No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second
>> opinion before making any decisions.
>
> Its actally a laparotomay (spelling!) to get a sample of the liver.
>

I had to look that up, it means abdominal surgery.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0022163.html

Other than the slightly enlarged liver, did they find anything else that
they want a liver biopsy?

ojaeri
November 2nd 05, 11:07 PM
This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was
your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam
done? A fecal exam may not show protozoan parasites lodged in the
intestines.They can cause diarrhea, increased appetite and they can take
whatever the cat gets in the form of nutrition right out of its system so
it has to eat, eat, eat to keep ahead of the parasites. Parasites can
also cause fluid in the abdomen too.There are several reasons for
ascites in the abdomen but none that I found linked ascites with diarrhea
and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines,
etc).

No More Retail
November 2nd 05, 11:23 PM
Paul this is a link to vet centers in your area Wales { - South Yorkshire}
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/find/business/business_numbers.publisha?NAM=Vets&LOC=Wales+%7b+-+South+Yorkshire%7d+&CLASSCODE=A00687&AREACODE=24666&PreviousAreaCode=24666&PreviousLocation=Wales+%7b+-+South+Yorkshire%7d+&SearchType=type&Searched=Y

this is the area of Cardiff Wales Airport { - Vale Of Glamorgan}
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/find/business/business_numbers.publisha?NAM=Vets&LOC=Cardiff+Wales+Airport+%7b+-+Vale+Of+Glamorgan%7d+&CLASSCODE=A00687&AREACODE=30149&PreviousAreaCode=30149&PreviousLocation=Cardiff+Wales+Airport+%7b+-+Vale+Of+Glamorgan%7d+&SearchType=type&Searched=Y


I hope this will help keep us posted

November 2nd 05, 11:38 PM
ojaeri wrote:
> This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was
> your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam
> done? A fecal exam may not show protozoan parasites lodged in the
> intestines.They can cause diarrhea, increased appetite and they can take
> whatever the cat gets in the form of nutrition right out of its system so
> it has to eat, eat, eat to keep ahead of the parasites. Parasites can
> also cause fluid in the abdomen too.There are several reasons for
> ascites in the abdomen but none that I found linked ascites with diarrhea
> and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines,
> etc).

You raise an excellent point. I spoke with a woman who worked in the
supermarket whose cat in tthree years had been irritable and ailing.
She had taken the cat to at least two vets. I suggested parasites based
on the scratching of the tummy and loss of hair. She went to a third
vet in a big clinic setting and a simple test showed giardia as the
parasites. It's difficult to comprehend the incompetence of the early
vets who just dismissed the problem as needing to change the food, try
a different manufacturer. The cat improved very quickly and nicely and
is now pleasant with the other two cats, poor thing. It's not obvious
to many vets who don't know that there are parasites in municipal
treated water supplies which poses threats, especially those with
compromised immune disorders. Very healthy people will throw off these
parasites, like giardia or cryptosporidium. Be interesting to hear the
OP's reply. My first impulse was, no way, could he miss this
possibility. Then I thought of this woman who had taken her cat to
supposedly good vets. But some vets are just not good when the cause is
not obvious and immediate and requires some thinking, which takes time
and vets like many in medicine have only the in and out the door
mentality. A function of time and money over all.

rrb
November 3rd 05, 07:42 AM
ojaeri wrote:
> This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was
> your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam
> done? A fecal exam may not show protozoan parasites lodged in the
> intestines.They can cause diarrhea, increased appetite and they can take
> whatever the cat gets in the form of nutrition right out of its system so
> it has to eat, eat, eat to keep ahead of the parasites. Parasites can
> also cause fluid in the abdomen too.There are several reasons for
> ascites in the abdomen but none that I found linked ascites with diarrhea
> and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines,
> etc).
>

I have a question: are you a vet, vet tech, or have any type of medical
training?

Phil P.
November 3rd 05, 08:56 AM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> > That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid
> > *analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate,
> > Modified Transudate, Non Septic Exudate, Septic Exudate, Neoplastic,
> > Chylous, Hemorrhagic. Certain types of fluids are associated with
specific
> > disease processes. Determining the *type* of fluid might help you
identify
> > the disease that's producing the fluid. Once you identify the disease
> > that's producing the fluid, you can develop a therapeutic plan to treat
the
> > disease. Your vet should have explained this to you.
>
> Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth
> but not sure what else.


I suggest you ask your vet if he had the fluid analyzed and if the *type*
was determined. I don't think you understand how important this is.
Determining the type of fluid might pinpoint the process that's causing it.
Do you understand that?




> > > > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important.
> > > >
>
> Dont' know.


I suggest you find out because its *very* important --low serum albumin
causes the the fluid to leak out the blood and form effusions in body
cavities.


> > Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed?
>
> Not the heart.


I suggest you order an echo as soon as possible. Heart disease can produce
fluid.



> > Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is
a
> > *common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)-
the
> > cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized.
> >
>
> something to do with the fluid notbeing all in one place but in
> 'pockets' ???

Find out what your cat's albumin levels are and have the fluid *analyzed*
and *typed*.

Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a large
animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet.

Phil P.
November 3rd 05, 08:57 AM
"ojaeri" > wrote in message
lkaboutpets.com...
> Several things can cause an increased appetite, not just an increased
> appetite but a cat always at the food dish, one is a hormonal imbalance
> and the other is hyperthyroidism. Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come
> from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and
> surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge.


That's utter nonsense! Hyperthyroidism in cats is most often (98%) caused
by a benign , functional, adenomatous hyperplasia of one or both lobes of
the thyroid gland. The remaining 2% are caused by thyroid carcinomas.
"Bunch of sludge"- "parsley"-- give me a break!



There's
> also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used.

Yeah, snake oil and blessed water.


> The fluid accumulation and
enlarged liver could also stem from all of this overeating.


Where do you get this nonsense from?

Phil P.
November 3rd 05, 08:58 AM
"ojaeri" > wrote in message
lkaboutpets.com...
> Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area:
>
> www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html


Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter
is quackery.

November 3rd 05, 01:44 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "ojaeri" > wrote in message
> lkaboutpets.com...
> > Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area:
> >
> > www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html
>
>
> Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter
> is quackery.

Quackery though in a placebo sense. Not too long ago many quacks or
docs gave out sugar pills as a form of therapy and to keep the patients
happy and the money coming in. It's about the same. The quackery comes
in with the nonsense that something is happening but it's a catch-22.
If you tell the truth, the charm goes out of the placebo effect.

Lumpy
November 3rd 05, 04:20 PM
"Phil P." > wrote :

> Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a
large
> animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet.
>

I am not sure if the OP actually stated this or not, but that is my
impression,
too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get
another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small animals.

Phil P.
November 3rd 05, 09:26 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote :
>
> > Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a
> large
> > animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet.
> >
>
> I am not sure if the OP actually stated this or not, but that is my
> impression,
> too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get
> another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small animals.

If the OP is describing the vet's 'diagnostic plan' accurately- the vet is
obviously clueless about cats.

Aggravating as hell.

Phil P.
November 3rd 05, 09:27 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the
latter
> > is quackery.
>
> Quackery though in a placebo sense. Not too long ago many quacks or
> docs gave out sugar pills as a form of therapy and to keep the patients
> happy and the money coming in. It's about the same.

No it isn't. Placebos are given to 'treat' psychosomatic 'illnesses' that
don't actually exist- other than in the patient's mind. Homeopathic
concoctions are used to treat *real* diseases.

Homeopathy may not be dangerous in and of itself because the 'formulations'
themselves contain nothing but a wish. However, homeopathy is dangerous
when its used in place of real medicine and delays timely treatment.

cybercat
November 3rd 05, 09:42 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lumpy" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote :
> >
> > > Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a
> > large
> > > animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet.
> > >
> >
> > I am not sure if the OP actually stated this or not, but that is my
> > impression,
> > too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get
> > another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small
animals.
>
> If the OP is describing the vet's 'diagnostic plan' accurately- the vet is
> obviously clueless about cats.
>
> Aggravating as hell.
>

It is. I just got home from taking my little asthmatic EGC allergic
tabby girl to the vet, and discussed the attitude of rural large-animal
vets with one of the techs there who used to work with one. She agrees
and said that in vet school those intending to go into small animal
practice are trained in the psychology involved in dealing with beloved
pets, while those intending a large animal practice are not.

(P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25
last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids
on her food bowl! Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses
are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma
episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her
third and last this year--she usually just gets two. The vet said
there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly
moldy fall here in the swamps.)

xen via CatKB.com
November 4th 05, 03:28 AM
Talk about being a vet tech or vet I read on another forum about a guy
who brings his cat in for a distemper shot and the vet techs say theres a
tiny bit of wax in the ears but they better clean it out so they do and when
the guy gets his cat home after a couple of hours the cat's whole face swells
up and when he calls the clinic he can't talk to the vet and everyone is as
scarce as hens teeth. Or this , a vet tried to spay a male cat. She
opened him up and couldnt find the ovaries. I guess she had skipped the
course on genitalia at vet school. Or what about the person who brought a
sick cat to the vet and after a bunch of x-rays and bloodtests and MRI's
they gave her the sum of all of their years of training and a $2,500.00
answer " we don't know " . Or the person who had surgery done on their
dog and after they got the dog home the dog was vomiting blood ,and she
phoned the vet who said " give it a couple of days" . After a couple of
days she wouldn't have a dog to phone the vet about anymore. And the person
on this thread with a sick cat, he went to the vets and was told " we don't
know" and he paid how much? Thats why he's here. Because the vets didn't
know. He's probably getting more help here than he ever got at the vets. No
charge either. If it was only the vets and vet tech who could give
suggestions all we'd hear is " we don't know" . Just because they take
training, in lots of cases that doesn't mean a thing, without bloodtests and
x-rays, if that doens't tell them the answer they say " we don't know". I
don't know what other job a person can say that and get paid for it.

Rhonda
November 4th 05, 05:42 AM
cybercat wrote:


> (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25
> last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids
> on her food bowl!


Sisters are such a pain! :)

> Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses
> are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma
> episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her
> third and last this year--she usually just gets two. The vet said
> there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly
> moldy fall here in the swamps.)

Glad you caught it early and that her lungs are good.

I've never dealt with an asthmatic cat -- sounds like it's something you
really have to stay on top of.

Abernathy swallows a lot while purring, did you say that is a sign? We
had a cat that drooled when purring, I just thought Abernathy's doing
the same thing but with his mouth closed.

Rhonda

cybercat
November 4th 05, 06:38 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>
>
> > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25
> > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids
> > on her food bowl!
>
>
> Sisters are such a pain! :)

Especially assertive ones! We call her sister the Tuxedo Terrorist. :)
>
> > Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses
> > are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma
> > episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her
> > third and last this year--she usually just gets two. The vet said
> > there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly
> > moldy fall here in the swamps.)
>
> Glad you caught it early and that her lungs are good.
>
> I've never dealt with an asthmatic cat -- sounds like it's something you
> really have to stay on top of.

It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly
deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years
before I was. And of course I am allergic to cats. It just figures, doesn't
it?

In my limited understanding, asthma goes hand-in-hand with
allergies. Both are heightened immune responses--immune systems
that "work too well," in a manner of speaking. The good thing is that
the body responds strongly to an irritant--the bad thing is that the
reponse can harm the asthma/allergy sufferer. Inflammation to the
point that no air moves out or into the lungs, swelling that closes the
air passages of the throat.

Key concepts:

1. prevention in the form of limiting allergens, or in the case
of asthma, triggers. There is no mistaking a trigger in humans--it is
what happens before it all shuts down and we don't get enough
oxygen. But in cats it is harder to know as we are not in their little
heads and they can't tell us. Common triggers are cold, smoke,
perfumes, and dust. But allergens can also be triggers as can
stress. An upset person or cat can experience that "clamp down"
that means no air is getting in or out.

2. treatment/prevention in the form of steroids. Advair for me,
Depo medrol for my kitty. There are others for both species.

3. rescue inhalers for humans, aerokat for cats.

>
> Abernathy swallows a lot while purring, did you say that is a sign? We
> had a cat that drooled when purring, I just thought Abernathy's doing
> the same thing but with his mouth closed.
>

Swallowing a lot while purring is something I take as a sign of
congestion. The vet today told me that I am right in my cat's case,
but that it was just head congestion and had not affected her lungs.

Maybe your boy is just allergic, or maybe just nervous. He might be
having a reaction to his medication. You will know if he has asthma.
He will hunch and have a deep cough, his neck forward and down,
the tip of his tongue out. You're the kind of cat person who will not
miss this, I feel certain of it.

ojaeri
November 4th 05, 08:46 AM
Phil P. - 11-03-2005 07:58

"Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the
latter quackery."


Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy. They
are holistic vets. If it was " quackery" the AVMA would have revoked
their license to practice veterinary medicine.

Dr Charles E Loops DVM - "After 10 years of traditional veterinary
practice I became tired of having no treatment for chronic disease,
incurable conditions, and a plethora of allergic maladies which seem to
plague all veterinary practices. I was frustrated with giving animals
cortisone because I had no other solutions, or using antibiotics for
infections which I knew were of viral origin. At this time I had some
chronic health problems, which had been unresolvable allopathically, but
they responded to treatment by homeopathy. It took some time but it
worked! I have studied extensively and continue to do so. I progressively
added homeopathy to my practice over a 4 year period and in February of
1992, I sold this practice so that I could devote myself to veterinary
homeopathy exclusively. "

Michael Dym, VMD- "We have also failed to address the underlying cause of
disease by only sup pressing symptoms with antibiotics, cortisone and
related drugs, so the disease progresses and goes deeper. Homeopathy
offers a viable alternative in truly curing pets and making their bodies
healthier."
(Dr. Dym is one of 250 veterinarians in the US trained in classical
veterinary homeopathy by Richard Pitcairn, DVM, PhD. Dr. Dym is a
presidential scholar graduate from Cornell University with his VMD from
Penn. He is an active member of the Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy and
the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association.)

Jeffry Levy, DVM- ""My clinical practice is devoted exclusively to
homeopathic treatment for dogs, cats, and horses. I also teach advanced
veterinary homeopathy in seminars around the U.S. Homeopathy is a powerful
and sophisticated system of medicine. With homeopathic remedies, I have
been successful in treating a wide variety of health problems, including
many that are very serious or for which there is no conventional
treatment.
Treatment with allopathic drugs (antibiotics, steroids, hormones, etc.)
should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Corticosteroids
(cortisone-type anti-inflammatory drugs) are the most abused and dangerous
class of drugs. Not only do they not cure the underlying cause of the
problem, they usually make the underlying problem, that is, the real
problem, worse.
The greatest harm of drug treatment is usually not so much the toxicity or
side effects as it is the effects of suppression. Allopathic (conventional
Western) medical thinking generally seeks immediate gratification: just
make the symptom go away. So the patient may be better in the short term,
but is usually worse in the longer term. Homeopathy is just the opposite:
sometimes the symptoms are worse in the short term (such as with
aggravation or the reversal of a previous suppression), but the real
benefit is in the longer term. "

Dr. Will Falconer, DVM- "The philosophy of Alternatives for Animal Health
is that we work with your animalís innate healing abilities to achieve an
optimal state of health. This is best accomplished by the smooth working
together of doctor, care giver, and animal. The doctor depends on you the
care giver to carefully watch and report on symptoms. He will use the
information you provide to carefully guide the course of homeopathic care
for your individual animal. As no two animals are exactly alike, even if
they have the same diagnosis, we will focus on how your individual animal
manifests illness and health. This uniqueness will guide the treatment
according to the clear principals of classical homeopathy. "


Phil P. - 03 Nov 2005 20:27 GMT

"Homeopathy may not be dangerous in and of itself because the
'formulations'
themselves contain nothing but a wish. However, homeopathy is dangerous
when its used in place of real medicine and delays timely treatment."

Antibiotics?

Morton Walker, D.P.M. -"Officials from the National Institutes of Health
and the Centers for Disease Control have reported that the overuse of
antibiotics in medicine has created an epidemic of antibiotic-resistant
bacteria. Doctors fear that if antibiotic use is not curtailed, we may
soon approach the day when untreatable infections are rampant. "After 40
years of pushing antibiotics for any ailment, physicians are now
confronting bacteria that have built defenses against those same drugs.
Some infectious bacteria that were once treatable are stronger and often
deadly. The reappearance of highly infectious bacteria is caused in part
by the overuse and misuse of antibiotics, but the resilience of bacteria
also stems from the ingenious biochemistry of the microorganisms
themselves. To survive, microorganisms and fungi mutate into resistant
strains." Morton Walker, D.P.M.


Richard H. Bennett, Ph.D - "For decades, the approach to maintaining
healthy animals was to wait for signs and symptoms of disease to occur and
to counter the challenge with an array of drugs which were toxic for the
disease causing agent. This approach is now being questioned as the
armada of drugs is diminishing due to multiple drug resistant pathogens.
Compounding this alarming trend is the current approach to health
maintenance which assumes that "all is well" until actual disease
processes begin. By this time, the disease is established, sometimes
irreversibly, and the damage has occurred.

Rimadyl?

http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadyl.ose.html
http://rimadyldeath.com/
http://www.alliemax.homestead.com/rimadyl.html


Prednisone and other steroids?

http://members.tripod.com/%7EUrsulaKelly/steroids.htm
http://www.felinecompanions.homestead.com/steroids.html


Concerning the use of thyroid drops:


Phil P. - 03 Nov 2005 07:57 GMT

"Yeah, snake oil and blessed water."


Perhaps you could let Professional Health Products who make that product
for medical doctors and vets know that. The product is called
Thyrodrops.
http://www.phpltd.com/

Phil P.
November 4th 05, 09:43 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Lumpy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "Phil P." > wrote :
> > >
> > > > Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like
a
> > > large
> > > > animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not sure if the OP actually stated this or not, but that is my
> > > impression,
> > > too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get
> > > another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small
> animals.
> >
> > If the OP is describing the vet's 'diagnostic plan' accurately- the vet
is
> > obviously clueless about cats.
> >
> > Aggravating as hell.
> >
>
> It is. I just got home from taking my little asthmatic EGC allergic
> tabby girl to the vet, and discussed the attitude of rural large-animal
> vets with one of the techs there who used to work with one. She agrees
> and said that in vet school those intending to go into small animal
> practice are trained in the psychology involved in dealing with beloved
> pets, while those intending a large animal practice are not.


Animals to LA vets are nothing more than commodities- unless its a bull or a
stud. They seem to lack sensitivity for cats and dogs- that's just the
impression I got from the few I've met. Maybe some are different- don't
know- I don't go out of my way to meet LA vets.



>
> (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25
> last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids
> on her food bowl! Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses
> are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma
> episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her
> third and last this year--she usually just gets two.


Have you tried inhaled Flovent? Systemic steroids effect every cell in the
body- so I try to avoid them as much as possible. I'll only use them if
there's no alternative.

Somes vets at U of Minn think there might be a connection between
long-acting steroids (Depo-Medrol)and congestive heart failure in cats. I'm
trying to get more information- when I do, I'll pass it on.


The vet said
> there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly
> moldy fall here in the swamps.)

Years ago I lived and worked in swamps where the humidity so high that
clothes started to rot while I was still wearing them! The mosquitoes were
so big we'll called them "Bay Nam Hai" = after the B-52 bombers!

Phil P.
November 4th 05, 09:49 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...


> It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly
> deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years
> before I was. And of course I am allergic to cats. It just figures,
doesn't
> it?

Most people that are allergic to cats are actually allergic to the protein
cats secrete, Felis domesticus (Feld I). I read an article from the
Northeast Veterinary Conference that said ECG in cats might be an allergic
reaction to the same protein as if it was an exogenous allergen. IOW, Feld
1
might be an autoallergen for some cats as it is an allergen for some people!

Here's an excerpt from the article:

"A recent article suggest that Felis domesticus allergen I (Feld I) could
be an autoallergen responsible for chronic inflammatory reactions in cats
with EGC. Cat skin may respond with eosinophils to as diverse a group of
diseases as allergies, pemphigus, neoplasia, or pyoderma. Specific
histological as well as clinical guidelines must be used to make the
diagnosis of EGC. "

And here's the abstract from the study that supports the article:


Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):338-41.


Evaluation of Felis domesticus allergen I as a possible autoallergen in cats
with eosinophilic granuloma complex.

Wisselink MA, van Ree R, Willemse T.

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary
Medicine, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands.

"OBJECTIVE: To investigate the role of Felis domesticus allergen I (Feld I)
in the pathogenesis of eosinophilic granuloma complex (EGC) in cats.

ANIMALS: 7 healthy cats and 6 cats with EGC.

PROCEDURE: Epidermis was removed from 4 areas. Rubber stoppers filled with
Feld I, saline (0.9% NaCl) solution, and PBS solution were glued to the skin
lesions and removed 48 hours later. Fluid within each stopper was collected.
Biopsy specimens were obtained at each site, snap frozen, and stored at -70
C. Total and differential numbers of cells in fluid were counted. Biopsy
specimens were stained by use of monoclonal antibodies against feline CD4,
CD8 and CD3. Data were analyzed by use of multivariate repeated-measures
analysis.

RESULTS: Healthy cats had a significant increase in number of CD3+ cells,
compared with number of CD4+ and CD8+ cells, and Feld I caused a significant
increase in number of CD3+ cells, compared with PBS or saline solutions.
Cats with EGC had a significant increase in number of CD3+ cells, compared
with number of CD4+ and CD8+ cells, and Feld I caused a significant increase
in number of CD3+ and CD4+ cells, compared with PBS or saline solutions.
Cats with EGC had an increased CD4+ response, a significantly decreased CD8+
response, and a significantly increased CD4-to-CD8 ratio compared with
healthy cats.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The increased CD4+ response,
significantly decreased CD8+ response, and significantly increased
CD4-to-CD8 ratio are comparable to results in atopic people and allergic
cats. Therefore, Feld I could be an autoallergen responsible for chronic
inflammatory reactions in cats with EGC."

Very interesting, isn't it? Show this to your vet and MD. Wiping your cat
down with a damp cloth then drying her off might reduce the Feld 1
accumulation on her skin>> which might reduce her symptoms.

Since you both might be allergic to same allergen, ask your vet if he'll
give you a "family discount" on the shots! ;-) Just kidding.

Phil

Phil P.
November 4th 05, 09:56 AM
"ojaeri" > wrote in message
lkaboutpets.com...
>
>
> Phil P. - 11-03-2005 07:58
>
> "Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the
> latter quackery."
>
>
> Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy.


Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this group
very long- most of the participants know better.

I though your post about "thyroid sludge" and "parsley" was hilarious! Got
any more wonder cures that vet med missed? LOL!


Wanna buy a Rolex, cheap?

paulfoel
November 4th 05, 01:35 PM
Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I
can be sure whats going on.

paulfoel
November 4th 05, 01:36 PM
Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I
can be sure whats going on.

paulfoel
November 4th 05, 02:02 PM
> Other than the slightly enlarged liver, did they find anything else that
> they want a liver biopsy?

No. Thats it from what I've been told.

cybercat
November 4th 05, 06:19 PM
"Phil P." > wrote>
> Animals to LA vets are nothing more than commodities- unless its a bull or
a
> stud. They seem to lack sensitivity for cats and dogs- that's just the
> impression I got from the few I've met. Maybe some are different- don't
> know- I don't go out of my way to meet LA vets.
>

Their general attitude is probably fine for what they do--and a reflection
of that of many of the farmers they deal with every day. It is just when
someone brings beloved pet to them that there is a problem. Most
large animal vets would look at the little tabby I find totally
irreplaceable,
and knowing that fully most cats look and act just like her, think I am
crazy.

>
> >
> > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25
> > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids
> > on her food bowl! Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses
> > are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma
> > episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her
> > third and last this year--she usually just gets two.
>
>
> Have you tried inhaled Flovent? Systemic steroids effect every cell in
the
> body- so I try to avoid them as much as possible. I'll only use them if
> there's no alternative.

Phil, I have put it off but I am going to get the Aerokat inhaler this year
when I begin ordering the online Christmas gifts. I assume this is how you
administer the Flovent? You made me aware early on of the dangers of
systemic steroids as did my vets--and I did listen--but this cat has not
only asthma but EGC that responds very well to only two shots a year.
My vets feel that 2-3 shots a year do not pose a significant threat with
regard to side effects such as diabetes. At the same time, I want an
inhalable treatment to ease my mind when she coughs at home, and to
KEEP the shots to a minimum. (She had no linear granuloma presenting
on her legs yesterday, and no ulcer or other sign of EGC other than her
usual itchiness. So, yes, this would be a good time to look into just using
an inhaler when she only presents with asthma and allergy symptoms.)

>
> Somes vets at U of Minn think there might be a connection between
> long-acting steroids (Depo-Medrol)and congestive heart failure in cats.
I'm
> trying to get more information- when I do, I'll pass it on.
>

I had not heard that. Very scary. I will look forward to your update.
>

cybercat
November 4th 05, 06:23 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> > It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly
> > deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years
> > before I was. And of course I am allergic to cats. It just figures,
> doesn't
> > it?
>
> Most people that are allergic to cats are actually allergic to the protein
> cats secrete, Felis domesticus (Feld I). I read an article from the
> Northeast Veterinary Conference that said ECG in cats might be an allergic
> reaction to the same protein as if it was an exogenous allergen. IOW,
Feld
> 1
> might be an autoallergen for some cats as it is an allergen for some
people!
>
[snips article]

> Very interesting, isn't it?

It really is. So she may be allergic to the same thing on her that *I* am!


>Show this to your vet and MD. Wiping your cat
> down with a damp cloth then drying her off might reduce the Feld 1
> accumulation on her skin>> which might reduce her symptoms.
>
> Since you both might be allergic to same allergen, ask your vet if he'll
> give you a "family discount" on the shots! ;-) Just kidding.
>

I wish you weren't, at least my vet would charge less than my doctor
for treatment! But I have not progressed to shots yet, Claritin keeps
me comfortable most of the time, in conjunction with the Advair I take
for the asthma.

As for kitty, I will indeed make wiping her down part of our nightly
love fest!

cybercat
November 4th 05, 06:26 PM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I
> can be sure whats going on.
>

A really good idea. Let us know.

Helen Miles
November 6th 05, 12:48 AM
"ojaeri" > wrote in message
lkaboutpets.com

Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come
> from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and
> surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's
> also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used.///

What a pile of crap. Tell me. Is "Sludge" a technical veterinary term?

Helen M


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Lumpy
November 6th 05, 01:03 AM
"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "ojaeri" > wrote in message
> lkaboutpets.com
>
> Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come
> > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and
> > surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's
> > also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used.///
>
> What a pile of crap.

Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that?

November 6th 05, 07:32 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this group
> very long- most of the participants know better.
>
> I though your post about "thyroid sludge" and "parsley" was hilarious! Got
> any more wonder cures that vet med missed? LOL!
>
>
> Wanna buy a Rolex, cheap?

I've never done that although I have seen people who bought
counterfeits for fun, paying $10 or $20.

Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect?

I thought that cats would tune into their partners and if the owner
thought it would do good, then the cat would follow the owner's
mistaken instincts. Cats are a bit psychic and may pick up on the
placebo effect which is real. Why? Most illnesses will go away by
themselves, especially if given a here's hope mandate.

I have suspected that my cat follows my internal guidelines. If I am
calm, then she tends to be calm. Once she got her paw caught in the air
conditioner's vent and let out the most awful, panicky cry. I just
petted her quickly while I reached over to get a big leather glove so
she would not shred me to death if I had to manhandle her. But
instantly she relaxed [quite amazing, her muscles relaxed very
noticeably] because I was not overly concerned & turned her paw just so
to free herself. Whew.

Phil P.
November 6th 05, 10:09 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this
group
> > very long- most of the participants know better.
> >
> > I though your post about "thyroid sludge" and "parsley" was hilarious!
Got
> > any more wonder cures that vet med missed? LOL!
> >

<snip>


> Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect?


Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels in a
hyperthyroid cat???

Phil P.
November 6th 05, 12:50 PM
"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "ojaeri" > wrote in message
> lkaboutpets.com
>
> Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come
> > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and
> > surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's
> > also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used.///
>
> What a pile of crap. Tell me. Is "Sludge" a technical veterinary term?
>
> Helen M

The parsley cure was even funnier. I think I'll send her post to an
endocrinologist at AMC whose been researching hyperthyroidism in cats for 20
years and tell him he's been wasting his time. LOL!

The reason why homeopathic 'remedies' seem to work in some people is because
they're diluted so many times with alcohol that the people get drunk and
don't feel anything! LOL!

Phil

5cats
November 6th 05, 02:30 PM
wrote:

>
> Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect?
>
> I thought that cats would tune into their partners and if the owner
> thought it would do good, then the cat would follow the owner's
> mistaken instincts. Cats are a bit psychic and may pick up on the
> placebo effect which is real. Why? Most illnesses will go away by
> themselves, especially if given a here's hope mandate.
>

The cat could also be responding positively to simply getting some extra
attention from the owner. But I'd still totaly loose respect for any vet
who tried to peddle a bottle of expensive water for what's ailing my cats.

doby
November 6th 05, 09:06 PM
parsly. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and for
a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from
tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard
about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more
hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole.

Helen Miles
November 6th 05, 09:07 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message

>
> Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that?

Because RPCA doesn't discuss health issues in the same way, and it's
rarely called for. If you google my posts in RPCA, you'll find that on
occasion I *have* called people on talking B.S.

Helen M




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

November 6th 05, 09:43 PM
Phil P. wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect?

> Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels in a
> hyperthyroid cat???

Unfortunately, nope. I was saying that most illnesses are self-curing.
For people and for felines. But there are those that are not. For
example, Stage One Diabetes. Nothing will work when the body produces
absolutely no insulin. So all the placeboes will do nothing unless they
contain insulin.

For a moment, I thought you said hypothyroid. Stress can affect the
reduction of thryoid. I don't know about the over-production. Can
stress affect that? If so, then the placebo might have an effect. If
the over-production is due to a disease with the thyroid gland, nope.

Do they use what in a cat? Do they have an equivalent Armour product?
Is that as cheap for felines as it is for people? Or do they prefer the
expensive synthetics that don't seem as good as the natural piggie
product? The synthetics can be 10 times the price of the natural,
proven product which has been around for a century? And the synthetics,
the T3 ones, appear to have production problems in their manufacturing.

Do they give just a synthetic, like Synthroid, for T4 regulation and
not T3 too?

Do they monitor the feline's temperature as a way to regulate this?

November 6th 05, 09:45 PM
doby wrote:
> parsly. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and for
> a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from
> tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard
> about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more
> hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole.

How did you figure that one out? That's really good to know and I filed
this away in my cat file on the compter. Now can I trouble you for the
opposite? What do you recommend for hypothyroidism or low thyoid
output?

Helen Miles
November 6th 05, 09:50 PM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
ups.com

> Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for
> about 6 months.///

Paul, where in the UK are you based? The Veterinary college hospitals
all take primary care cases so you shouldn't need to get a referal.

Alternatively, if you're within driving distance of Newmarket, use the
Animal Health Trust - they are awesome.

Helen M


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Lumpy
November 6th 05, 11:11 PM
"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "Lumpy" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that?
>
> Because RPCA doesn't discuss health issues in the same way, and it's
> rarely called for. If you google my posts in RPCA, you'll find that on
> occasion I *have* called people on talking B.S.
>

But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended.
You just surprised me.

Phil P.
November 7th 05, 01:20 AM
"doby" > wrote in message
lkaboutpets.com...
> parsley. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and
for
> a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from
> tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard
> about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more
> hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole.

If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have
hyperthyroidism. I think you should take your cat to a *real* vet and her
T4 levels checked by a *real* lab *real* soon.

xen via CatKB.com
November 7th 05, 02:52 AM
Phil wrote
If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have
hyperthyroidism. I think you should take your cat to a *real* vet and her
T4 levels checked by a *real* lab *real* soon.
>Phil

And what kind of " real" vet would that be, the one that tried to spay a
male cat or the one that left one ovary in ? And what kind of "real lab
would that be, the kind that misdiagnosed Cushing's disease in a dog and
called it heart disease and gave " real" medicine, the wrong medicine, and
by the time they wisened up it was too late" . Or are you talking about
the " real" vet who left a person's dog to die on the examining table, left
there 8 hours alone because they tried to get the owner to put the dog down
saying it was cancer but the owner insisted on other tests. They refused.
After, the clinic wanted a hasty cremation but the owner took her dog
elsewhere. An autopsy was done and it was a preforated stomach, the dog
could have been saved. Or maybe you're talking about the " real" vet who
used " real " medicine to prescribe medication for a dog who limped, saying
it was a sprained muscle. The dog had neck disc disease as was found out
later by a specialist. But , hey, the medicine was " real" right? But
either way, the vets got paid right? They get paid when they're right, they
get paid when they don't know what the answer is, they get paid when they
make a mistake and a sicker pet is brought back to them now twice as sick ,
they get paid when they overdose, and misdiagnose, yeah, they're " real"
all right and so is the pain and suffering they cause. Don't hear you
yelling about that, oh, yeah, you're probably a vech tech.. Indignation
over parsley ? Conventional medicine has done more damage than parsley will
ever do and you know it. If you don't, you're not a vet tech. It looks like
you're running scared. Laughing and ridiculing things you know nothing about
hoping that others will follow suit and discredit it too. They're a little
smarter than that. Your way is outmoded and outdated. Your way is going the
way of the dinosaurs. It's done far too much damage for far too long, and the
vets who know it and care, change rather than continue to do the damage.
Those who jeer and discredit are just running scared. They're more concerned
for themselves than the animals in their care. No one you'd want your pets
going to no matter how " real" they say they are.


--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200511/1

Phil P.
November 7th 05, 03:18 AM
"xen via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> Phil wrote
> If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have
> hyperthyroidism. I think you should take your cat to a *real* vet and her
> T4 levels checked by a *real* lab *real* soon.
> >Phil
>
> And what kind of " real" vet would that be,

One that doesn't proclaim parsley as a cure for hyperthyroidism or sell
concoctions in which the original substance has been diluted
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times (that's a 30X dilution)- the
equivalent of making an extra dry martini by placing a bottle of gin a few
feet away from a drop of vermouth and letting the spirits of the liquors
join in la la land. LOL!

Phil P.
November 7th 05, 03:31 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect?
>
> > Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels
in a
> > hyperthyroid cat???
>
> Unfortunately, nope. I was saying that most illnesses are self-curing.

That's what the homeoquacks play on. "Here's a magic cure for the common
cold- take one swig and your cold will be cured in 2-3 weeks". LOL!

Phil P.
November 7th 05, 03:52 AM
"xen via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]

I missed all this the first time because I was laughing so hard.


> you're probably a vech tech..


You're probably wrong.



Indignation
> over parsley ?


Actually, I like parsley--- in my tomato sauce.



Conventional medicine has done more damage than parsley will
> ever do and you know it.


That's an asinine statement. Conventional medicine has saved more lives
than parsley ever will. So there! LOL!


> If you don't, you're not a vet tech.


I know.



It looks like
> you're running scared.


Naaa- its more like I'm laughing at some people's stupidity and gullibility.



Laughing and ridiculing things you know nothing about
> hoping that others will follow suit and discredit it too.


I know enough about homeopathy to LMAO at it-- probably more than you since
I don't believe it and you do. You've proven P.T. Barnum right.



They're a little
> smarter than that. Your way is outmoded and outdated. Your way is going
the
> way of the dinosaurs.


I think you're way is going straight to the monkey house.



It's done far too much damage for far too long, and the
> vets who know it and care, change rather than continue to do the damage.


Homeopaths are vets who couldn't make it in real medicine without a gimmick
or an angle.



> Those who jeer and discredit are just running scared.


You're damn right! I'm scared of homeopathy because it delays or precludes
the administration of *real* medicine in the early stages of illness when
*real* treatment is most effective.

You remind me of a Mooney? Do you know who they were?

rrb
November 7th 05, 06:16 AM
xen via CatKB.com wrote:

> going to no matter how " real" they say they are.
>
>

You're ranting would have a little more credence (say .00000000000000001
% ) if you responded to the correct message instead of the wrong one
like you did.

Not all regular vets screw up - just the ones that you posted these
"supposed" errors about. I would ask if you have any online
documentation or otherwise of these errors - especially versus the
non-error rate and vets who don't screw up - but I know you don't have
any or won't produce it anyway.

November 7th 05, 09:05 AM
rrb wrote:
> xen via CatKB.com wrote:
>
> > going to no matter how " real" they say they are.
> >
> >
>
> You're ranting would have a little more credence (say .00000000000000001
> % ) if you responded to the correct message instead of the wrong one
> like you did.
>
> Not all regular vets screw up - just the ones that you posted these
> "supposed" errors about. I would ask if you have any online
> documentation or otherwise of these errors - especially versus the
> non-error rate and vets who don't screw up - but I know you don't have
> any or won't produce it anyway.

unfortunately the real numbers are not kept. i have had some awful
experiences with vets. there are some good vets but a lot are not good.
it's the money and time thing. and even some who are good if they had
the time, decide to just give a stupid answer, like change the diet to
another cat food maker, instead of testing for something as simple as
giardia. it's the same with doctors. i don't know about vets, but with
people it's iatrogenic disease when caused by the doctors, and noscemic
when caused by the hospitals, like a staph infection. the big latin
names help when you discuss this with the doctors or hospitals who do
know the actual death rates. let's see, for hospitals i think the death
rate is around 20% for noscemic infections. anyone know for sure? it's
been my observation with people that i knew that died - they died
because of mistakes by the doctors and the hospitals. their familes did
not sue because either they had enough money or they were tied to the
medical profession, directly or indirectly. imagine that, empowered,
part of the establishment, and they still make mistakes which kill you.
so what hope for those of us not rich and not part of the power network?

Helen Miles
November 7th 05, 09:57 AM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message


> But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended.
> You just surprised me.///

Trust me, if someone there posted an equal amount of rubbish, I'd
probably use the same phrase. ;o)

I tried to look at homeopathy before I started being sceptical, so that
I could make an informed choice not to use it. I even went on a week
long course to learn about its use. Biggest load of hookum I have *ever*
come across. I have used holistic veterinary medicine like accupuncture
very successfully on animals, but homeopathy has a long, long way to go
to convince me of its benefit. I think I realised what a pile of crap
homeopathy was when the "lecturer" tried to convince me that I had to
bang a conconction on a bible something like 43 times, turn it to the
right and chant "magic words" to have it take effect.

I'm not saying all vets are amazing and can't make mistakes, but
homeopathy has the potential to be exceptionally harmful because of a
mistaken belief that it will work.

Helen M



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

cybercat
November 7th 05, 05:33 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> rrb wrote:
> > xen via CatKB.com wrote:
> >
> > > going to no matter how " real" they say they are.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You're ranting would have a little more credence (say .00000000000000001
> > % ) if you responded to the correct message instead of the wrong one
> > like you did.
> >
> > Not all regular vets screw up - just the ones that you posted these
> > "supposed" errors about. I would ask if you have any online
> > documentation or otherwise of these errors - especially versus the
> > non-error rate and vets who don't screw up - but I know you don't have
> > any or won't produce it anyway.
>
> unfortunately the real numbers are not kept. i have had some awful
> experiences with vets.

Come on, people. The fact that trained veterinarians make mistakes,
and that some are suckass people does not mean that you don't take
your pets to vets.

It is the same with doctors and you do the same thing you do with
them if you have half a blinking brain cell in your head and are not
too lazy to use it:

You go in there knowing as much as you can about the problem,
you stay on your guard, you ask plenty of questions and you do
not allow the vet/doctor to make a move until you have explored
ALL of the risks yourself, perhaps via another vet/doctor. Be
assertive. Be aggressive if you need to be. But get ALL the answers.
Don't trust any vet or doctor automatically. They're just people,
for God's sake. But even the worst one probably knows more
than you do about the problem.

cybercat
November 7th 05, 05:35 PM
"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "Lumpy" > wrote in message
>
>
> > But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense
intended.
> > You just surprised me.///
>
> Trust me, if someone there posted an equal amount of rubbish, I'd
> probably use the same phrase. ;o)
>
> I tried to look at homeopathy before I started being sceptical, so that
> I could make an informed choice not to use it. I even went on a week
> long course to learn about its use. Biggest load of hookum I have *ever*
> come across. I have used holistic veterinary medicine like accupuncture
> very successfully on animals, but homeopathy has a long, long way to go
> to convince me of its benefit. I think I realised what a pile of crap
> homeopathy was when the "lecturer" tried to convince me that I had to
> bang a conconction on a bible something like 43 times, turn it to the
> right and chant "magic words" to have it take effect.
>
> I'm not saying all vets are amazing and can't make mistakes, but
> homeopathy has the potential to be exceptionally harmful because of a
> mistaken belief that it will work.
>

I agree with you, Helen. I understand the well-meaning impulse toward
"all natural" practices, but often times the practice seems steeped in some
sort of romantic "back to nature" hooey that is in and of itself a load of
crap because fully MOST potent medicines doctors and vets
prescribe derive from "natural" materials such as plants and animal
extracts. And that is just one issue.

meee
November 8th 05, 03:04 AM
i will put a word in for homeopathy. i have had experience only with human
homeopathy, not pet homeopathy. I have been to both a homeopathy 'quack' who
often made you worse rather than better, i think she did a mail order course
or something. however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his
degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine, and
bone manipulation. he approaches health in a scientific, holistic way, with
a good deal of common sense and definitely would not bang something on a
bible 45 times, turn to the right and say magic words. In my experience, i
have found homeopathy to be great for things such as digestive problems,
depression, joint problems, asthma and childhood illnesses. however the
homeopathist we go to uses all of the methods and his considerable knowledge
of alternative medidicne to treat patients. Neither he nor the australian
homeopathic council (or whatever it's called- the governing body) reccomend
using homeopathy as a replacement to conventional medicine, especially in
serious diseases, but recommend it's use as a complementary treatment. My
sister uses normal asthma medications in conjunction with homeopathic
remedies, which works extremely well for her. Homeopathy is designed to
treat the underlying weaknesses that allow disease in, more than the
specific disease itself. I agree that homeopathy should NEVER be used as a
replacement for a vet, however if you want to try it as a complement or to
relieve minor things, aches and pains, etc do your research and DON"T be
taken in by an untrained or misinformed quack. Contact your national
governing body, not a 'homeopathic society' or anything, but a legit
governing council or something, and proceed with common sense.

--
There are many intelligent species in the Universe. They are all owned by
cats.

Anonymous

One cat just leads to another. -Ernest Hemingway


"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "Lumpy" > wrote in message
>
>
> > But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense
intended.
> > You just surprised me.///
>
> Trust me, if someone there posted an equal amount of rubbish, I'd
> probably use the same phrase. ;o)
>
> I tried to look at homeopathy before I started being sceptical, so that
> I could make an informed choice not to use it. I even went on a week
> long course to learn about its use. Biggest load of hookum I have *ever*
> come across. I have used holistic veterinary medicine like accupuncture
> very successfully on animals, but homeopathy has a long, long way to go
> to convince me of its benefit. I think I realised what a pile of crap
> homeopathy was when the "lecturer" tried to convince me that I had to
> bang a conconction on a bible something like 43 times, turn it to the
> right and chant "magic words" to have it take effect.
>
> I'm not saying all vets are amazing and can't make mistakes, but
> homeopathy has the potential to be exceptionally harmful because of a
> mistaken belief that it will work.
>
> Helen M
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Helen Miles
November 8th 05, 11:20 AM
"meee" > wrote in message


however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his
> degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine, and
> bone manipulation. he approaches health in a scientific, holistic way, with
> a good deal of common sense and definitely would not bang something on a
> bible 45 times, turn to the right and say magic words////

You've hit the nail on the head there with the words "scientific",
"holistic" and common sense. I've used chinese medicine very
successfully for migraine and arthritis as a complimentary treatment and
am "open" to homeopathy. I am just very sceptical of a lot of stuff.

> Neither he nor the australian
> homeopathic council (or whatever it's called- the governing body) reccomend
> using homeopathy as a replacement to conventional medicine, especially in
> serious diseases, but recommend it's use as a complementary treatment.///

See, that's where you've said it again. "Complimentary treatment". It's
BRILLIANT as a complementary treatment, and often helps with reduction
of symptoms.

>I agree that homeopathy should NEVER be used as a
> replacement for a vet, however if you want to try it as a complement or to
> relieve minor things, aches and pains, etc do your research and DON"T be
> taken in by an untrained or misinformed quack. Contact your national
> governing body, not a 'homeopathic society' or anything, but a legit
> governing council or something, and proceed with common sense.///

This is the problem though. I'm a sceptic to a great extent, simply
because there are so many "quacks" out there and they can end up doing
way more harm than good. The reason i tried to explore it fully, was
because I *like* the idea of using homeopathic treatments rather than
conventional medicine. However, in the "veterinary world" I've not once
seen a situation where it's worked, and I've seen many cases where the
animal has been poisoned by it.

Helen M




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

PawsForThought
November 8th 05, 02:56 PM
ojaeri wrote:
> Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy. They
> are holistic vets. If it was " quackery" the AVMA would have revoked
> their license to practice veterinary medicine.

Hi Ojaeri,
Thanks for listing these. I have a cat with asthma and we have been
seeing a holistic vet who is giving her a natural cortisone. This is
the first treatment we've used that has ever completely stopped any
attacks from occurring. We are also treating her immune system
nutritionally. As to homeopathy, I have never had success with it in
animals, although some people swear by it. I think animals are very
hard to treat that way because they can be very hard to repertorize.
Have you ever read Dr. Don Hamilton's book? Interesting read you might
enjoy.

Take care,
Lauren

CatNipped
November 8th 05, 03:14 PM
"Helen Miles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .mailgate.org...
> "meee" > wrote in message
>
>
> however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his
> > degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine,
and
> > bone manipulation. he approaches health in a scientific, holistic way,
with
> > a good deal of common sense and definitely would not bang something on a
> > bible 45 times, turn to the right and say magic words////
>
> You've hit the nail on the head there with the words "scientific",
> "holistic" and common sense. I've used chinese medicine very
> successfully for migraine and arthritis as a complimentary treatment and
> am "open" to homeopathy. I am just very sceptical of a lot of stuff.
>
> > Neither he nor the australian
> > homeopathic council (or whatever it's called- the governing body)
reccomend
> > using homeopathy as a replacement to conventional medicine, especially
in
> > serious diseases, but recommend it's use as a complementary
treatment.///
>
> See, that's where you've said it again. "Complimentary treatment". It's
> BRILLIANT as a complementary treatment, and often helps with reduction
> of symptoms.
>
> >I agree that homeopathy should NEVER be used as a
> > replacement for a vet, however if you want to try it as a complement or
to
> > relieve minor things, aches and pains, etc do your research and DON"T be
> > taken in by an untrained or misinformed quack. Contact your national
> > governing body, not a 'homeopathic society' or anything, but a legit
> > governing council or something, and proceed with common sense.///
>
> This is the problem though. I'm a sceptic to a great extent, simply
> because there are so many "quacks" out there and they can end up doing
> way more harm than good. The reason i tried to explore it fully, was
> because I *like* the idea of using homeopathic treatments rather than
> conventional medicine. However, in the "veterinary world" I've not once
> seen a situation where it's worked, and I've seen many cases where the
> animal has been poisoned by it.
>
> Helen M

In humans, a lot of "homeopathic" or "alternative" medical techniques work
simply because of the belief in them - the more a patient believes something
will work, the more it will (the same reason voodoo actually worked on those
who truly believed in curses). The problem with taking those practices to
animals is that animals don't know they're supposed to be getting better, so
don't!

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

paulfoel
November 10th 05, 12:08 PM
Since this is what the original post was about I thought I'd post an
update....

Neil has been getting a little worse in the past week or so. Hes not
getting larger, can't fit throught the cat flap and is having
difficulty getting around. Hes also always hungry and seems to be very
incontinent with really bad diarrhoea.

Anyway, got hold of his notes and took him to see another vet for a
second opinion. From his notes, hes had loads of tests including liver,
kidney, thyroid, cancer etc but nothuing has been conclusive. Fluid has
also been analysed. Hes also had xray and scan.

Results are pretty inconclusive but liver is enlarged.

Vet thinks same as other one thats its very likely to be a large
cancerous growth, but can't be sure. If not that they;re 99% certain
its liver failure, of FIP.

Either way, outlook is very bad indeed and this other vet has suggested
euthanasia as a probably best choice. (the first vet hasnt suggested
this yet but hes gone downhill in the last few weeks).

So, sadly, this looks like the way to go for Neil.

chas
November 10th 05, 08:53 PM
So sorry to hear your bad news.

chas

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 05:21 AM
"paulfoel" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Anyway, got hold of his notes and took him to see another vet for a
> second opinion. From his notes, hes had loads of tests including liver,
> kidney, thyroid, cancer etc but nothuing has been conclusive. Fluid has
> also been analysed. Hes also had xray and scan.

What was the fluid analysis- which type of fluid?

paulfoel
November 12th 05, 10:36 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> "paulfoel" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> > Anyway, got hold of his notes and took him to see another vet for a
> > second opinion. From his notes, hes had loads of tests including liver,
> > kidney, thyroid, cancer etc but nothuing has been conclusive. Fluid has
> > also been analysed. Hes also had xray and scan.
>
> What was the fluid analysis- which type of fluid?

Can't remember exactly what type, although it was definitely tested.
'Normal' bodily fluid or something.

I asked why they couldn't drain it and they said it was pointless
because it would fill up again in a few days.