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PawsForThought
November 9th 05, 06:12 PM
Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
can
the city really enforce them?

By Tracy Wilkinson
Times Staff Writer

November 9, 2005

ROME * In the greater animal kingdom, the plight of the little
goldfish is
especially harsh. The tiny creatures are scooped into plastic bags and
awarded at carnivals and fairs. They are confined to bowls where they
can
do nothing but swim around and around. Some (it has been claimed) go
blind.

No more. The municipal government of Rome has entered waters where few
city
halls dare tread. Under a new ordinance, the city's goldfish are
entitled
to a proper, full-sized aquarium, and they can no longer be given out
as
contest prizes.

The rules were drafted by the city of Rome's Office for Animal Rights.
The
59-point statute ordering better treatment for all pets, from cats and
dogs
to birds and lizards, was approved by the City Council last month and
will
go into effect today.

The unusually strict measure is winning plaudits from animal rights
activists, snarls from pet shop owners and puzzlement from all quarters

about whether it can be enforced. City officials, though, said it was
time
to take a stand.

"We needed to send a strong message: Pets are not objects," said
Cristina
Bedini, an 11-year veteran of the animal rights office. "We are saying
that
owning a pet is a joy, but it is also a duty. Responsible ownership is
the
only way to fight cruelty."

The fish-bowl rule may win Rome a humanitarian award from the Fish
Empathy
Project of PETA, the international animal rights group, People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"Rome has gone above and beyond anything we've seen anywhere else,"
spokeswoman Karin Robertson said in a telephone interview. For all
animals,
the Italian capital's new ordinance is more restrictive than anything
in
the United States, PETA said in a statement.

In addition to affording protection for fish, the measure requires dog
owners to walk their canines daily or face a $625 fine. It also bans
the
display of pets for sale in store windows, and gives legal recognition
to
Rome's famous gattare, the "cat ladies" who feed an army of strays.

Also forbidden: choke and electrical collars and, for dogs and cats,
declawing and the clipping of tails and ears for cosmetic reasons.

"Rome has taken a historic step for animal rights," said Gianluca
Felicetti, an activist with one of Italy's main animal-welfare
organizations. "It will help people to know that animals have a right
to
respect and to their ethological necessities."

Bedini and city officials met with police to discuss the ordinance and
how
to see that it is obeyed, and a team of street cops will undergo
specialized training to better understand the needs of animals. Even
police
officers frequently don't recognize animal abuse, Bedini said, and they

must be taught what constitutes mistreatment.

But Italy is a land of many laws and its own form of lawlessness. Can
police really know whether someone has given proper living quarters to
his
goldfish? And how can the frequency of dog-walking actually be
monitored?

"We have the most beautiful laws in the world, and nobody enforces
them,"
said Silvia Viviani, a retired opera soprano who co-founded the Torre
Argentina cat sanctuary, a home for some 250 strays. It is one of an
estimated 800 cat "colonies" in Rome that the new measure aims to
protect
by forbidding construction projects from displacing their feline
residents.

Despite her reservations about enforcement, Viviani praised the
statute.
She only wished it went further, to include mandatory sterilization of
cats
and dogs * something, she says, that is still resisted in Italy
because of
machismo.

Bedini said enforcement will rely more on education than police action.
To
catch fish-bowl violators, for example, "I don't think police will be
going
door to door."

Pet awareness is an evolving culture in Italy, she said, adding that
the
ordinance reflects a growing sensitivity among Roman citizens to the
plight
of their four-legged * and un-legged, finned, winged and otherwise
evolved
* friends.

Bedini proudly notes that shelters here no longer euthanize animals. A
national law exists that criminalizes the abandoning of pets, and many
cities have their own animal-welfare regulations and officials to
enforce them.

Despite all this, many Italians who tire of pets will not hesitate to
dump
them on a roadside. Animal rights groups estimate that abandoned pets
in
Italy include 150,000 dogs and 200,000 cats.

Better care for goldfish, Bedini said, will require a change in
mentality.
Many parents like their children to play the carnival games that offer
pets
as prizes, which in turn teach them to care for living creatures. But
the
conditions are often less than desirable and the mortality rate high.

Enza Trapani, a manicurist and mother, knows the difficulties. She
bought a
goldfish for her 8-year-old son, Valerio, but it died after a couple of

weeks. A second one died after about six months. She gave up and now
has a
turtle and a cat.>>

cybercat
November 9th 05, 06:16 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
can
the city really enforce them?

[snips article]

I saw this and wondered the same thing. I think it just amounts to
a "nice gesture" until there are signs that it has been enforced in some
way.

Thanks for posting this, Lauren.

November 9th 05, 06:20 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
> Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> can
> the city really enforce them?
>
> By Tracy Wilkinson
> Times Staff Writer
>
> November 9, 2005
>
> ROME * In the greater animal kingdom, the plight of the little
> goldfish is
> especially harsh. The tiny creatures are scooped into plastic bags and
> awarded at carnivals and fairs. They are confined to bowls where they
> can
> do nothing but swim around and around. Some (it has been claimed) go
> blind.
>
> No more. The municipal government of Rome has entered waters where few
> city
> halls dare tread. Under a new ordinance, the city's goldfish are
> entitled
> to a proper, full-sized aquarium, and they can no longer be given out
> as
> contest prizes.
>
> The rules were drafted by the city of Rome's Office for Animal Rights.
> The
> 59-point statute ordering better treatment for all pets, from cats and
> dogs
> to birds and lizards, was approved by the City Council last month and
> will
> go into effect today.
>
> The unusually strict measure is winning plaudits from animal rights
> activists, snarls from pet shop owners and puzzlement from all quarters
>
> about whether it can be enforced. City officials, though, said it was
> time
> to take a stand.
>
> "We needed to send a strong message: Pets are not objects," said
> Cristina
> Bedini, an 11-year veteran of the animal rights office. "We are saying
> that
> owning a pet is a joy, but it is also a duty. Responsible ownership is
> the
> only way to fight cruelty."
>
> The fish-bowl rule may win Rome a humanitarian award from the Fish
> Empathy
> Project of PETA, the international animal rights group, People for the
> Ethical Treatment of Animals.
>
> "Rome has gone above and beyond anything we've seen anywhere else,"
> spokeswoman Karin Robertson said in a telephone interview. For all
> animals,
> the Italian capital's new ordinance is more restrictive than anything
> in
> the United States, PETA said in a statement.
>
> In addition to affording protection for fish, the measure requires dog
> owners to walk their canines daily or face a $625 fine. It also bans
> the
> display of pets for sale in store windows, and gives legal recognition
> to
> Rome's famous gattare, the "cat ladies" who feed an army of strays.
>
> Also forbidden: choke and electrical collars and, for dogs and cats,
> declawing and the clipping of tails and ears for cosmetic reasons.
>
> "Rome has taken a historic step for animal rights," said Gianluca
> Felicetti, an activist with one of Italy's main animal-welfare
> organizations. "It will help people to know that animals have a right
> to
> respect and to their ethological necessities."
>
> Bedini and city officials met with police to discuss the ordinance and
> how
> to see that it is obeyed, and a team of street cops will undergo
> specialized training to better understand the needs of animals. Even
> police
> officers frequently don't recognize animal abuse, Bedini said, and they
>
> must be taught what constitutes mistreatment.
>
> But Italy is a land of many laws and its own form of lawlessness. Can
> police really know whether someone has given proper living quarters to
> his
> goldfish? And how can the frequency of dog-walking actually be
> monitored?
>
> "We have the most beautiful laws in the world, and nobody enforces
> them,"
> said Silvia Viviani, a retired opera soprano who co-founded the Torre
> Argentina cat sanctuary, a home for some 250 strays. It is one of an
> estimated 800 cat "colonies" in Rome that the new measure aims to
> protect
> by forbidding construction projects from displacing their feline
> residents.
>
> Despite her reservations about enforcement, Viviani praised the
> statute.
> She only wished it went further, to include mandatory sterilization of
> cats
> and dogs * something, she says, that is still resisted in Italy
> because of
> machismo.
>
> Bedini said enforcement will rely more on education than police action.
> To
> catch fish-bowl violators, for example, "I don't think police will be
> going
> door to door."
>
> Pet awareness is an evolving culture in Italy, she said, adding that
> the
> ordinance reflects a growing sensitivity among Roman citizens to the
> plight
> of their four-legged * and un-legged, finned, winged and otherwise
> evolved
> * friends.
>
> Bedini proudly notes that shelters here no longer euthanize animals. A
> national law exists that criminalizes the abandoning of pets, and many
> cities have their own animal-welfare regulations and officials to
> enforce them.
>
> Despite all this, many Italians who tire of pets will not hesitate to
> dump
> them on a roadside. Animal rights groups estimate that abandoned pets
> in
> Italy include 150,000 dogs and 200,000 cats.
>
> Better care for goldfish, Bedini said, will require a change in
> mentality.
> Many parents like their children to play the carnival games that offer
> pets
> as prizes, which in turn teach them to care for living creatures. But
> the
> conditions are often less than desirable and the mortality rate high.
>
> Enza Trapani, a manicurist and mother, knows the difficulties. She
> bought a
> goldfish for her 8-year-old son, Valerio, but it died after a couple of
>
> weeks. A second one died after about six months. She gave up and now
> has a
> turtle and a cat.>>

So true about goldfish in small tanks. I learned a few years back that
a goldfish actually needs 10 GALLONS of water (each!). They produce a
great deal of waste, and the water becomes toxic to them quite quickly.

-L.
November 9th 05, 07:01 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
> Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> can
> the city really enforce them?

Good for Rome. Having a law is the first step.
-L.

whitershadeofpale
November 9th 05, 11:11 PM
-L. wrote:
> PawsForThought wrote:
> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> > can
> > the city really enforce them?
>
> Good for Rome. Having a law is the first step.
> -L.

I believe that more and more, animals will gain the protection they
need.

There are too many weirdos in the world

The odd thing is, some people kill animals as a matter of religion.

November 10th 05, 12:56 AM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote:

>
>-L. wrote:
>> PawsForThought wrote:
>> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
>> > can
>> > the city really enforce them?
>>
>> Good for Rome. Having a law is the first step.
>> -L.
>
>I believe that more and more, animals will gain the protection they
>need.
>
>There are too many weirdos in the world
>
>The odd thing is, some people kill animals as a matter of religion.

I find most things done for religion odd.

-mhd

Ramboyd
November 10th 05, 01:01 AM
wrote:

> "whitershadeofpale" > wrote:
>
> >
> >-L. wrote:
> >> PawsForThought wrote:
> >> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> >> > can
> >> > the city really enforce them?
> >>
> >> Good for Rome. Having a law is the first step.
> >> -L.
> >
> >I believe that more and more, animals will gain the protection they
> >need.
> >
> >There are too many weirdos in the world
> >
> >The odd thing is, some people kill animals as a matter of religion.
>
> I find most things done for religion odd.
>
> -mhd

I find most religions (make that all) odd.

Ramboyd

======

"My Ottawa Includes Corruption"

No More Retail
November 10th 05, 01:58 AM
3 things in this world beside women that are not made to be understood
Religion
Sex
Politics

whitershadeofpale
November 10th 05, 02:50 AM
....
No More Retail wrote:
> 3 things in this world beside women that are not made to be understood
> Religion
> Sex
> Politics

or...

A ship at sea
A serpent on a rock
And, a man with his virgin

Phil P.
November 10th 05, 11:41 AM
> wrote in message
...

> I find most things done for religion odd.

Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
have been so stupid.

whitershadeofpale
November 10th 05, 01:35 PM
Phil P. wrote:

> Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
> their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> have been so stupid.

ya but if there was no greek gods we would not have our esssquisite Nike

cybercat
November 10th 05, 03:32 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I find most things done for religion odd.
>
> Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks
and
> their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> have been so stupid.
>

Given that religion is supposed to be a positive thing for humans,
what really gets me is violence done in the name of God. And
lest we think that Muslim extremists invented this, we can
remember what we learned in school about the Christian
Crusades of medieval times.

Ramboyd
November 10th 05, 03:52 PM
cybercat wrote:

> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> >
> > Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> > our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks
> and
> > their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> > have been so stupid.
> >
>
> Given that religion is supposed to be a positive thing for humans,
> what really gets me is violence done in the name of God. And
> lest we think that Muslim extremists invented this, we can
> remember what we learned in school about the Christian
> Crusades of medieval times.

Burning of witches
Spanish Inquisition
Killing of North and South American heathen Indians
Slavery
Protestant/Catholic confrontations.

Ramboyd

======

"My Ottawa Includes Corruption"

Phil P.
November 10th 05, 04:08 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> >
> > Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us
and
> > our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks
> and
> > their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we
could
> > have been so stupid.
> >
>
> Given that religion is supposed to be a positive thing for humans,
> what really gets me is violence done in the name of God. And
> lest we think that Muslim extremists invented this, we can
> remember what we learned in school about the Christian
> Crusades of medieval times.


Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).

cybercat
November 10th 05, 04:24 PM
"Phil P." > wrote

> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>

Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

-L.
November 10th 05, 06:34 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I find most things done for religion odd.
>
> Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
> their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> have been so stupid.

And many of us are ahead of our time.
;)

-L.

Wendy
November 10th 05, 07:26 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote
>
>> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
>> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>>
>
> Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>
>

What would you suggest as an alternative?

In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
while people are attempting to control a problem and as a result provide a
better life for the cat in the long run so I have no problem with it.

W

whitershadeofpale
November 10th 05, 10:44 PM
-L. wrote:

> And many of us are ahead of our time.
> ;)
>
> -L.

That's true

I also believe if we can imagine something it can be done

for what other reason would we imagine it if it was not possible

cybercat
November 10th 05, 10:57 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote
> >
> >> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea-
they
> >> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
> >>
> >
> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
> >
> >
>
> What would you suggest as an alternative?

Why does the fact that it bothers me necessarily imply that I have
an alternative?

>
> In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
> would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
> while people are attempting to control a problem and as a result provide a
> better life for the cat in the long run so I have no problem with it.
>

And you are entitled to your opinion. It still really bothers me.

whitershadeofpale
November 10th 05, 10:58 PM
-L. wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> >
> > Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> > our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
> > their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> > have been so stupid.
>
> And many of us are ahead of our time.
> ;)
>
> -L.

oh and uh

maddam butterfly she's loves me to sleep

(at least I imagine it)

meee
November 10th 05, 11:21 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> > >
> > > Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us
> and
> > > our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and
Greeks
> > and
> > > their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we
> could
> > > have been so stupid.
> > >
> >
> > Given that religion is supposed to be a positive thing for humans,
> > what really gets me is violence done in the name of God. And
> > lest we think that Muslim extremists invented this, we can
> > remember what we learned in school about the Christian
> > Crusades of medieval times.
>
>
> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>
>
>
lol! and the crocodile, and the baboon, and the ibis, and the frog, and the
snake, and the river, and whatever else happened to cross their path....
funny people those egyptians.

Wendy
November 10th 05, 11:49 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Phil P." > wrote
>> >
>> >> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea-
> they
>> >> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>> >>
>> >
>> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
>> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> What would you suggest as an alternative?
>
> Why does the fact that it bothers me necessarily imply that I have
> an alternative?

Nothing - just asking if you had a better way to mark the cats who have been
neutered already.
>
>>
>> In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
>> would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
>> while people are attempting to control a problem and as a result provide
>> a
>> better life for the cat in the long run so I have no problem with it.
>>
>
> And you are entitled to your opinion. It still really bothers me.

Bothers you to see the poor kitties with tipped ears or morally bothers you?
I hate to see their beautiful ears messed with but understand the necessity
so accept it. That might have been a more accurate way to describe my
thinking on the matter.
>
>

cybercat
November 10th 05, 11:56 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

> Bothers you to see the poor kitties with tipped ears or morally bothers
you?

Both, if I understand what you're asking. When I say "bothers me" I mean
"bothers me," I don't mean "it should not be done." I understand that it
is helpful to the process of neutering ferals and spays and that therefore
in its proper context the greater good is being served. However, I am
not convinced that the mutilation is *necessary.*

> I hate to see their beautiful ears messed with but understand the
necessity
> so accept it. That might have been a more accurate way to describe my
> thinking on the matter.
> >

It's a reasonable approach. I guess mine is that I just wish there were
another
way to mark them than cutting part of them off. I am not arrogant enough to
think that just because I can't think of one, nobody can, so I am not yet
convinced that it IS *necessary.*

whitershadeofpale
November 11th 05, 03:36 AM
cybercat wrote:

> It's a reasonable approach. I guess mine is that I just wish there were
> another
> way to mark them than cutting part of them off. I am not arrogant enough to
> think that just because I can't think of one, nobody can, so I am not yet
> convinced that it IS *necessary.*

I have to admit this is the first of heard of this.

I assume males are not tipped? is that the word?
seeing that their nuts are gone.

well, if the cat has been under the knife, (asleep)
why not use one of them chips I hear about on here.

Or some other micro implant.

I'd be willing to bet my pc that an implant is used by some.

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 04:03 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote
>
> > Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea-
they
> > worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
> >
>
> Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna would
be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the registration
number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out of
business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would only
need be
a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed. A
large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as noticible as
tipping.

Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be trapped
to be scanned.

I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral organizations.
Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for identifying
managed ferals.

-L.
November 11th 05, 05:29 AM
whitershadeofpale wrote:
>
> I have to admit this is the first of heard of this.
>
> I assume males are not tipped? is that the word?
> seeing that their nuts are gone.

Any neutered cat is tipped - male or female. It's just a visual cue to
anyone who knows what it means that the cat has already been neutered.
It's a universal sign that the cat has been neutered. The very tip of
the ear is clipped off while the cat is under sedation. It doesn't
even need suturing, the wound is so minor.

>
> well, if the cat has been under the knife, (asleep)
> why not use one of them chips I hear about on here.

Too expensive - and you have to be able to trap a cat to scan it -
scanning a feral in a trap is nearly impossible. Tipping is done for a
number of reasons - one main reason is that if there is a feral hanging
out some place that people want trapped and neutered, you can tell if
it has already been neutered just by looking at it, so you don't waste
time, energy and money re-trapping cats that have already been through
the system.

> Or some other micro implant.
>
> I'd be willing to bet my pc that an implant is used by some.

Not likely. Chips cost a minimum iof $25 or so. Most TTVNR (trap,
test, vaccinate, neuter, release) or TNR (trap, neuter, release)
programs are run by volunteers who pay for everything from their own
pockets or through donations, which are scarce.

What do you think is a better use of $100 - neutering 4 cats or
neutering and chipping 2?

-L.

-L.
November 11th 05, 05:31 AM
whitershadeofpale wrote:
>
> oh and uh
>
> maddam butterfly she's loves me to sleep
>
> (at least I imagine it)

You know Madam Butterfly was a dude, don't you?

-L.

cybercat
November 11th 05, 07:40 PM
"Phil P." > wrote :
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>
> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna
would
> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
registration
> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out of
> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would
only
> need be
> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed. A
> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as noticible as
> tipping.
>
> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
trapped
> to be scanned.
>
> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral organizations.
> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for identifying
> managed ferals.
>

So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right then
cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
suspected,
just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That is
what
I feared.

Wendy
November 11th 05, 07:53 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote :
>>
>> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
>> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>>
>> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna
> would
>> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
> registration
>> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out of
>> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would
> only
>> need be
>> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed. A
>> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
>> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as noticible
>> as
>> tipping.
>>
>> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
> trapped
>> to be scanned.
>>
>> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral organizations.
>> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
>> identifying
>> managed ferals.
>>
>
> So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
> for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right then
> cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
> suspected,
> just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That is
> what
> I feared.
>
>

Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.
These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to try
to help the cats. Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
the ripper or something.

cybercat
November 11th 05, 08:47 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
then
> > cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
> > suspected,
> > just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That
is
> > what
> > I feared.
> >
> >
>
> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats
ear
> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.
> These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to
try
> to help the cats.

I feel sure many would love to do so without cutting off part of the cats'
ears, don't you?

>Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
> the ripper or something.
>

That seems like a pretty dramatic interpretation of what I said above.
But to each her own.

Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that would
be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of cutting
off part of the cat's ear. That is not the same thing as saying that
rescuers
are "jack the ripper." In fact, isn't it the vet (I hope) who cuts off the
ear
tip? If the vet had a simple tool that would mark the ear indelibly and
clearly, that would be great.

-L.
November 11th 05, 08:51 PM
Wendy wrote:
> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats ear
> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.

It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
being the two biggest. There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance. Sometimes you can barely make
out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
dark-skinned cats.

> These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to try
> to help the cats. Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
> the ripper or something.

She's often critical of many things she knows nothing about.

-L.

5cats
November 11th 05, 09:06 PM
cybercat wrote:

>
> Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> cutting off part of the cat's ear.

Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?

cybercat
November 11th 05, 09:30 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> > would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> > cutting off part of the cat's ear.
>
> Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
> disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?
>

Disfiguring? Not in my understanding of the word. But in any case it would
be nice if the cats did not have to be cut. If you think about it, anything
that can be seen from a distance has to be *noticeable* right? <G> That is
the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without actually
trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered. The
cutting off of the tip of the ear, OR a tattoo, are actually not necessary
to the task of
spaying and neutering, they just make it easier on the people trapping the
cats. Assuming this convenience is what we are shooting for, it seems to me
that a mark is better than a cut. Better for the cat, in other words.

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 09:32 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote :
> >>
> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> >> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
> >>
> >> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna
> > would
> >> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
> > registration
> >> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out
of
> >> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would
> > only
> >> need be
> >> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed. A
> >> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
> >> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as noticible
> >> as
> >> tipping.
> >>
> >> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
> > trapped
> >> to be scanned.
> >>
> >> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
organizations.
> >> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
> >> identifying
> >> managed ferals.
> >>
> >
> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
then
> > cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
> > suspected,
> > just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That
is
> > what
> > I feared.
> >
> >
>
> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats
ear
> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.

A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat was
trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a few
inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
spot.

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 09:32 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> > would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> > cutting off part of the cat's ear.
>
> Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
> disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?

The tattoo doesn't have to be seen from a distance. Once the cat was
trapped- you'd only be a few inches away from the cat.

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 09:33 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Wendy wrote:
> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats
ear
> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.
>
> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
> being the two biggest.

Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
neuters.


There's no way you are going to see the inside
> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.


Sometimes you can barely make
> out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
> dark-skinned cats.

Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white-- which
would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.

Phil P.
November 11th 05, 09:36 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...

That is
> the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
actually
> trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.

Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.

cybercat
November 11th 05, 11:13 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> That is
> > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
> actually
> > trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.
>
> Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
> control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.
>

Of course. For some reason I was thinking of a circumstance where rescuers
would place traps where they see a colony of cats without marked ears, but
they would of course be mixed in. Since as you say, traps do not
discriminate, it makes even more sense to tattoo or otherwise mark indelibly
rather than cut off the tip of the ear.

-L.
November 12th 05, 12:22 AM
>
> Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing

Tipping is free.

>and only
> take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
> neuters.
>
>
> There's no way you are going to see the inside
> > of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
>
> You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.

>You'd see the tattoo when
> the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's ****ed. ;)

>
>
> Sometimes you can barely make
> > out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
> > dark-skinned cats.
>
> Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white-- which
> would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.

I highly doubt white ink is going to be visible on dark skinned cat.
Try it take photos and let us know.

-L.

-L.
November 12th 05, 12:36 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> That is
> > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
> actually
> > trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.
>
> Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
> control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.

Sure. But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether or
not it is worth setting the trap at all.

Hey - if a tattoo was free and would work, I'd be all for it. I don't
know anyone who has tried it, and I still highly doubt it is going to
serve the purpose of ID'ing the cat (x'ed or non-X'ed) from a distance
(which is imperative for the reason stated above) and be easily seen
even when the cat is in the trap, as well as on dark cats.


If anyone has done it and it works, please post.

The vets I worked with for TNR would in no way tatoo for free - you're
talking a set of sterile needles, tatto ink (which isn't cheap, IIRC,
because it is sterile), resterilizing the instrument, and more time
under anesthesia - all which costs money as compared to an extra 1/4
inch slice with a scalpel. Not to mention skill in tatooing - too deep
and it scars over, not deep enough, the ink doesn't take. Every dollar
spent on anything other than neutering means fewer cats neutered.
Until it's a proven method, I'll stick with the tip.

-L.

Wendy
November 12th 05, 11:13 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Wendy wrote:
>> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
>> > cats
> ear
>> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
> trapper.
>>
>> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
>> being the two biggest.
>
> Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and
> only
> take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
> neuters.
>
>
> There's no way you are going to see the inside
>> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
>
> You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo
> when
> the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.


That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.


>
>
> Sometimes you can barely make
>> out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
>> dark-skinned cats.
>
> Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white--
> which
> would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.
>
>
>

Wendy
November 12th 05, 11:31 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Phil P." > wrote :
>> >>
>> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
>> >> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>> >>
>> >> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna
>> > would
>> >> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
>> > registration
>> >> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out
> of
>> >> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would
>> > only
>> >> need be
>> >> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed.
>> >> A
>> >> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
>> >> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as
>> >> noticible
>> >> as
>> >> tipping.
>> >>
>> >> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
>> > trapped
>> >> to be scanned.
>> >>
>> >> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
> organizations.
>> >> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
>> >> identifying
>> >> managed ferals.
>> >>
>> >
>> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear
>> > tipping
>> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
> then
>> > cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
>> > suspected,
>> > just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That
> is
>> > what
>> > I feared.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats
> ear
>> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.
>
> A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat
> was
> trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a few
> inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
> spot.
>
>
>
So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony? How
will you know when you've gotten them all? Are you suggesting you have to
re-trap the whole lot to know? What's to keep you from re-trapping the same
damn cat over and over and missing totally it's brother/sister who is almost
an identical twin or triplet for that matter? More accurately is what's to
stop you from spending night after night trying to re-trap trap-wise cats?
You can't just assume that because the cat is trap-wise that it's been
previously trapped. We been unsuccessfully trying to get one female for two
years. Because her ear isn't tipped we know at a glance that she hasn't been
spayed (as the litters of kittens found at the location attest to). That
makes it worth the time going back and back and back after her. Because the
rest of them do have tipped ears we can be pretty confident that she is the
mother of the litters we find.

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 12:52 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> Wendy wrote:
> >> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
> >> > cats
> > ear
> >> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
> > trapper.
> >>
> >> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
> >> being the two biggest.
> >
> > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and
> > only
> > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
early
> > neuters.
> >
> >
> > There's no way you are going to see the inside
> >> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
> >
> > You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo
> > when
> > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
>
>
> That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
> to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
> didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.

Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
convenience, right?

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 12:54 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Wendy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "Phil P." > wrote :
> >> >>
> >> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> >> >> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
> >> >>
> >> >> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the
pinna
> >> > would
> >> >> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
> >> > registration
> >> >> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go
out
> > of
> >> >> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo
would
> >> > only
> >> >> need be
> >> >> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and
managed.
> >> >> A
> >> >> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
> >> >> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as
> >> >> noticible
> >> >> as
> >> >> tipping.
> >> >>
> >> >> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
> >> > trapped
> >> >> to be scanned.
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
> > organizations.
> >> >> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
> >> >> identifying
> >> >> managed ferals.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear
> >> > tipping
> >> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
> > then
> >> > cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
> >> > suspected,
> >> > just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do.
That
> > is
> >> > what
> >> > I feared.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
cats
> > ear
> >> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.
> >
> > A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat
> > was
> > trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a
few
> > inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
> > spot.
> >
> >
> >
> So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony?


Err, records and pictures... and err, memory? Most managers *know* every
cat in their
colonies.

Do you work with ferals? Sounds like you're calling plays from the
bleachers.

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 12:54 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > That is
> > > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
> > actually
> > > trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.
> >
> > Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
> > control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.
>
> Sure. But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether or
> not it is worth setting the trap at all.

Cutting half the tail off would serve the same purpose- . My concern is the
*cat*- not peoples' convenience. I'd certainly rather go through the
inconvenience of trapping the cat and releasing her than having the cat
tipped.


>
> Hey - if a tattoo was free and would work, I'd be all for it. I don't
> know anyone who has tried it, and I still highly doubt it is going to
> serve the purpose of ID'ing the cat (x'ed or non-X'ed) from a distance
> (which is imperative for the reason stated above) and be easily seen
> even when the cat is in the trap, as well as on dark cats.
>
>
> If anyone has done it and it works, please post.
>
> The vets I worked with for TNR would in no way tatoo for free -

I didn't say "free". Remember, we're not talking about a lot of intricate
numbers- just an
"X" or "M". You're complicating a very simple issue.

Phil

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 12:55 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> >
> > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing
>
> Tipping is free.


Only for mohels.


>
> >and only
> > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
early
> > neuters.
> >
> >
> > There's no way you are going to see the inside
> > > of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
> >
> > You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance.
>
> Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
> are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> setting the trap.


You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best" when
you don't have to deal with it. Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
ear for my convenience.


>
> >You'd see the tattoo when
> > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
> cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
> 'cause it's ****ed. ;)


The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?


>
> >
> >
> > Sometimes you can barely make
> > > out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
> > > dark-skinned cats.
> >
> > Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white--
which
> > would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.
>
> I highly doubt white ink is going to be visible on dark skinned cat.


The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it. The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.


> Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

-L.
November 12th 05, 02:02 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> > Tipping is free.
>
> Only for mohels.

LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.

> > Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
> > are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> > setting the trap.
>
>
> You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best" when
> you don't have to deal with it.

I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now. I have worked with
feral groups in the past. In fact I have a trap set now for a sly
little grey female that's haunting our neighborhood. I think the poor
thing was dumped. Sure, I'll trap her tip or not, but there have been
other instances where people have asked me to trap just to get the cat
neutered (a stray/feral they were feeding) and one of the questions I
have asked is "does the cat have a tipped ear"? It's a Universal
signal.

>Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
> of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
> releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
> ear for my convenience.

That's a waste of time. Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
full-time jobs.

> >
> > >You'd see the tattoo when
> > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
> >
> > Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
> > cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
> > 'cause it's ****ed. ;)
>
>
> The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
> minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.

>
> The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.

Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
silhouette.

> The problem is
> tipping has become routine policy.

A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.


> > Try it take photos and let us know.
>
> Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go out,
> trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me. The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat. Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me. Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs. ;)

-L.

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 03:24 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > Tipping is free.
> >
> > Only for mohels.
>
> LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.
>
> > > Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
> > > are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> > > setting the trap.
> >
> >
> > You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best"
when
> > you don't have to deal with it.
>
> I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now.


You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.


It's a Universal
> signal.


That's the problem- and probably too late to correct because its so
convenient and its accepted as routine. I just don't believe in tipping
cats. I don't like it and I won't support it.

>
> >Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
> > of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat
and
> > releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of
the
> > ear for my convenience.
>
> That's a waste of time.


To *you*. Not to me and the people I work with. We just have different
values. I don't believe in tipping a cat for the convenience of people.


Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
> precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
> full-time jobs.


I have two full time 'jobs' and a "part-time" job and I make the time.


>
> > >
> > > >You'd see the tattoo when
> > > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
> > >
> > > Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
> > > cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
> > > 'cause it's ****ed. ;)
> >
> >
> > The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a
few
> > minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?
>
> Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
a covered trap?


>
> >
> > The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.
>
> Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
> have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
> silhouette.


And? I never said tipping isn't easier to see.


>
> > The problem is
> > tipping has become routine policy.
>
> A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
> No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.


Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram



>
>
> > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> >
> > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
out,
> > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.
>
> It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
> unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
> to raise kittens with little to eat.


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
can exist without the other. None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?



Anything that makes it easier to
> get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
by you too?



Hey - removing balls is
> difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> little scrotal sacs. ;)

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 04:31 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> > tipped cats you see?
> >
> > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>
> Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?


The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony. That's
how managed colonies should look.

Most stray cats I've
> ever seen have been thin and matted, dirty, covered with sores, etc.

Sure. Many strays and ferals are in pretty bad shape before they're
managed. Neutering drastically reduces aggression and the wounds and
abscesses that follow, and ample and regular food drastically reduces fights
over food. Without the competitive pressures of sex and food the true social
nature of the cats emerge and the cats are free to shape their own little
community anyway they please. Each colony actually has their own little,
unique culture.

Phil

cybercat
November 12th 05, 05:17 PM
"Wendy" > wrote> >
> So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony?
How
> will you know when you've gotten them all? Are you suggesting you have to
> re-trap the whole lot to know?

We have not established beyond doubt that our imaginary ear tattoos
cannot be seen at a distance.

5cats
November 12th 05, 05:19 PM
Diane wrote:

> In article >,
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>> > > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>> >
>> > Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?
>>
>>
>> The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony.
>> That's how managed colonies should look.
>
> I wasn't able to hear it -- I guess I was seeing him dealing with them
> mostly one at a time.
>
> Are ferals from a colony ever adopted? Honestly, several of those were
> gorgeous. I have to say, if they can be managed without ear tipping,
> I'm all for it.
>

A friend of mine out in California works with a group that manages the
ferals on on their employers (huge) property. When a cat turns out to be
receptive to human contact they do remove them from the coloney and place
them up for adoption. They don't try to tame the true ferals.

cybercat
November 12th 05, 05:44 PM
"Phil P." > wrote

> > > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> > > tipped cats you see?
> > >
> > > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
> >

Phil that was a joy to see.

cybercat
November 12th 05, 05:51 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > > Tipping is free.
> > >
> > > Only for mohels.
> >
> > LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.
> >
> > > > Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when
you
> > > > are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> > > > setting the trap.
> > >
> > >
> > > You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's
best"
> when
> > > you don't have to deal with it.
> >
> > I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now.
>
>
> You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.
>
>
> It's a Universal
> > signal.
>
>
> That's the problem- and probably too late to correct because its so
> convenient and its accepted as routine. I just don't believe in tipping
> cats. I don't like it and I won't support it.
>
> >
> > >Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
> > > of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat
> and
> > > releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of
> the
> > > ear for my convenience.
> >
> > That's a waste of time.
>
>
> To *you*. Not to me and the people I work with. We just have different
> values. I don't believe in tipping a cat for the convenience of people.
>
>
> Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
> > precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
> > full-time jobs.
>
>
> I have two full time 'jobs' and a "part-time" job and I make the time.
>
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > >You'd see the tattoo when
> > > > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip.
The
> > > > cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
> > > > 'cause it's ****ed. ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a
> few
> > > minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?
> >
> > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
>
>
> And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
> a covered trap?
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.
> >
> > Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
> > have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
> > silhouette.
>
>
> And? I never said tipping isn't easier to see.
>
>
> >
> > > The problem is
> > > tipping has become routine policy.
> >
> > A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
> > No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.
>
>
> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> tipped cats you see?
>
> http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > >
> > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
> out,
> > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.
> >
> > It doesn't bother me.
>
>
> Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
> people, either.
>
>
> The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
> > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
> > to raise kittens with little to eat.
>
>
> What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
> can exist without the other. None of my colonies are tipped and they're
all
> neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies-
except
> for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
> them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
> viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?
>
>
>
> Anything that makes it easier to
> > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
>
> Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
> of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they
ok
> by you too?
>
>
>
> Hey - removing balls is
> > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> > little scrotal sacs. ;)
>
> That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> feline population in general.
>
>

Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.

I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

cybercat
November 12th 05, 05:53 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Phil P." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "-L." > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > >>
> > >> Wendy wrote:
> > >> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
> > >> > cats
> > > ear
> > >> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
> > > trapper.
> > >>
> > >> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
> > >> being the two biggest.
> > >
> > > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing
and
> > > only
> > > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
> early
> > > neuters.
> > >
> > >
> > > There's no way you are going to see the inside
> > >> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
> > >
> > > You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the
tattoo
> > > when
> > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
> >
> >
> > That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
trying
> > to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find
they
> > didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.
>
> Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
> convenience, right?
>

This is exactly my take on it, and why people who obviously do care
about cats support and defend this practice--just for convenience.
I don't understand this, coming from obviously well-intentioned cat
lovers.

-L.
November 12th 05, 06:43 PM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.

Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.

<snip>


> >
> > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
>
>
> And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
> a covered trap?

Not always.

>
> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> tipped cats you see?
>
> http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>
>

I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
know. I don't really care.

>
> >
> >
> > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > >
> > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
> out,
> > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.
> >
> > It doesn't bother me.
>
>
> Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
> people, either.
>

Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
silly, AFAIC.

>
> The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
> > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
> > to raise kittens with little to eat.
>
>
> What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
> can exist without the other.

Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd. And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.

>None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
> neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
> for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
> them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
> viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?
>

Depends on how close she is. I don't have any problem aborting kittens
if that's what you are asking. I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
thought it was pretty sick. Most of any size may move but never take a
breath. I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
shelter. I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.


> Anything that makes it easier to
> > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
>
> Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
> of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
> by you too?

I am talking about the TNR system.

>
> Hey - removing balls is
> > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> > little scrotal sacs. ;)
>
> That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> feline population in general.

It's still disfiguring.

-L.

cybercat
November 12th 05, 07:54 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.
>
> Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
> so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> > >
> > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
> >
> >
> > And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
> > a covered trap?
>
> Not always.
>
> >
> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> > tipped cats you see?
> >
> > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
> >
> >
>
> I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
> know. I don't really care.
>

And this is the crux of the matter, when it comes to you.

> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
go
> > out,
> > > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
it.
> > >
> > > It doesn't bother me.
> >
> >
> > Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
> > people, either.
> >
>
> Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
> silly, AFAIC.

Why would you want to cut off a part of an animal--any part--if you
don't HAVE to? That's the real question. Your callousness here is the
same callousness we see when you tell people to return cats to kill
shelters just because they have a behavioral issue. Your indifference
to the individual cats does not make you look like an "old pro,"
Lyn, as you seem to think. It reveals exactly what you are. A
hard-hearted control freak who likes to puff herself up by appearing
to be an "expert" at things--oftentimes to the detriment of other people
and other creatures, here, to cats.

The kind of person who argues against immediate vet care for injuries
and illnesses, so that you can give the impression that you are the
"expert" and those of us whose first concern is that cat the "novices."
Nobody cares about this kind of thing but you. It is a sign of the sort
of miserable insecurity that causes a great deal of harm in this world.
And that is the reason you are repulsive to me. I see right through you,
and I do care about these creatures more than I care about what people
think of me. Whether or not I am an "expert." It isn't just that you get on
my nerves. It isn't just that you cannot lose an argument without flying
into a frothy rage of "whatevers" and "duhs."

> >
> > What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
one
> > can exist without the other.
>
> Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
> TNR'd. And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.
>

Any time your own convenience is more important than protecting
the animal from needless harm, you are no advocate of cats.

>
> >
> > Hey - removing balls is
> > > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> > > little scrotal sacs. ;)
> >
> > That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> > feline population in general.
>
> It's still disfiguring.
>

And it still is necessary to provide a HUGE health benefit--unlike
cutting off the tip of the ear. You're wrong. And the horrible thing is
not that you won't admit it--it is that you will continue to promote
a practice that disfigures cats and is of no health benefit to them--
for your own convenience and to satisfy your own fragile ego.

Pathetic. Repulsive and pathetic.

-L.
November 12th 05, 10:37 PM
cybercat wrote:
>blah, blah ,blah, I'm so superior to you, blah, blah, blah...ad nauseum

Sit on your ass in the cold and the rain all night waiting on traps,
two or three weekends straight, and then maybe your input would mean
something. Until then, you're just another old boor.

-L.

-L.
November 12th 05, 11:05 PM
Wendy wrote:
>
> That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
> to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
> didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.
>


Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid. In those days and weeks
you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service. I guess Phil
has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.

-L.

-L.
November 12th 05, 11:13 PM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
> else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
> It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.
>
> I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
> of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
> as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

I'll tell ya what, Slurpy Grrl. You go find an poorly managed colony,
and spend the next couple years TNRing all of the cats there. Tattoo
all of the ears on all the cats while you are having them tested,
vaccinated and neutered. (Better start saving your pennies now - this
isn't an inexpensive hobby.) Come back and report to us how well the
tatoos work at helping you to ID cats - in the dark, in silhouette, and
during poor weather conditions when visibilty is low.

If, once you do all that, you are able to honestly (I know honesty is
a stretch for you, or need I mention the pig patrol incident?) report
that the ear tatoo - which IMO, if done properly is going to be just
about as disfiguring as a simple tip - is effective in helping to ID
previously TNR'ed cats, I will change my practice.

Until then, why don't you have a nice, big, hot, cup of Shut the ****
Up.

-L.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:18 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.
>
> Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
> so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.



You said "I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
the impression that you've just begun trapping. Otherwise, you would have
said "I trap cats too".



>
> <snip>
>
>
> > >
> > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
> >
> >
> > And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
> > a covered trap?
>
> Not always.


Nothing is "always" and 'never". Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
strays and pet cats that are frantic.


>
> >
> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> > tipped cats you see?
> >
> > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
> >
> >
>
> I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
> know. I don't really care.


Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country. In
fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
by NC.



>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
go
> > out,
> > > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
it.
> > >
> > > It doesn't bother me.
> >
> >
> > Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
> > people, either.
> >
>
> Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
> silly, AFAIC.


No, its not a matter of looking silly. Its a matter of disfiguring a cat for
convenience. Many people feel they can do whatever they like to ferals
because they're "helping" them and otherwise the cats would be killed. The
problem is tipping has become so convenient and routine that nobody wants to
change it- or even knows how do anything else.



>
> >
> > The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
> > > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and
trying
> > > to raise kittens with little to eat.
> >
> >
> > What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
one
> > can exist without the other.
>
> Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
> TNR'd.

No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
are
the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with
little to eat." --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" -- which
clearly not true. *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.

For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.


And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.


Its the *only* system that has been tried. Doesn't mean its the best. For
that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
even easier to see. Same principal.


>
> >None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
> > neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies-
except
> > for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
> > them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens
are
> > viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?
> >
>
> Depends on how close she is.


I said the third trimester.


I don't have any problem aborting kittens
> if that's what you are asking. I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
> and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
> thought it was pretty sick. Most of any size may move but never take a
> breath. I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
> shelter. I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.


So, would you abort a queen in her third trimester when the kittens are
viable? If so, the *kittens* would be *killed* not aborted.


>
>
> > Anything that makes it easier to
> > > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
> >
> > Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good
quality
> > of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are
they ok
> > by you too?
>
> I am talking about the TNR system.


There is no TNR system- that's the problem. Different cities and towns all
have their own methods.


>
> >
> > Hey - removing balls is
> > > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> > > little scrotal sacs. ;)
> >
> > That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> > feline population in general.
>
> It's still disfiguring.


Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering prevents
countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
difference.

Phil

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:20 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...

> Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than
anyone
> else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the
process.
> It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.


It probably goes against your nature because its mutilation without any
benefit for the cat.


>
> I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the
practice
> of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
> as well or not. Can you explain that to me?


Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing to
do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very serious-
almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always the
same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify neutered
ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not make
it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of tattooing!
But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form of
the cat.

November 13th 05, 12:40 AM
Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
>I don't know anything about them

I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because it became
clear very quickly who actually knows what they are doing and who the
poser is that doesn't. You have made some very good points WRT to
eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral Cat Coalition and Alley
Cat Allies hold the same views. Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both
practice eartipping and agree with the reasons you have stated defending
the practice in this thread. From:
http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm

"When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided eartipping as
it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But everything else we tried
failed. Taking photos of the neutered cats was fine if you saw the cats
often and could easily tell similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies
where the cats were all black and white and the caretaker caught random
glimpses, the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears,
but then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had the
tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.*

We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who had
already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the veterinarian
saw the scar and stopped the procedure. Nonetheless, the cat was
unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized, with all the corresponding
stress.*

There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not needed, such
as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's backyard, but in the vast
majority of cases, it ends up being to the cats' benefit to be easily
recognized as neutered, and not only for the purpose of avoiding being
re-trapped and operated upon. In New York City, the official animal
control agency (the Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal
policy of not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
animal is being cared for."

Keep up the good work, Lyn!

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:47 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Wendy wrote:
> >
> > That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
trying
> > to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find
they
> > didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.
> >
>
>
> Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid.


It seems stupid to you because you don't understand it-- we just have
different values and priorities. I just have a little more respect for cats.
Its kinda like rhythm- either you have it or you don't.

In those days and weeks
> you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
> neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service.


You're over-complicating a very simple issue- which is a sign of lack of
experience, since I know you're not stupid. Trapping is not as difficult
as it seems to you - if it is,
you're doing something wrong.


I guess Phil
> has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.

Naa, its a matter of priorities and values- yours are just different than
mine. I just don't feel cutting off the tip of a cat's ear just to make my
job easier is the right thing to do to cat. Its as simple as that.

Cheryl
November 13th 05, 01:15 AM
On Sat 12 Nov 2005 07:40:00p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav
):

> Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
>>I don't know anything about them
>
> I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because
> it became clear very quickly who actually knows what they are
> doing and who the poser is that doesn't. You have made some very
> good points WRT to eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral
> Cat Coalition and Alley Cat Allies hold the same views.
> Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both practice eartipping and
> agree with the reasons you have stated defending the practice in
> this thread. From:
> http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm
>
> "When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided
> eartipping as it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But
> everything else we tried failed. Taking photos of the neutered
> cats was fine if you saw the cats often and could easily tell
> similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies where the cats were
> all black and white and the caretaker caught random glimpses,
> the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears, but
> then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had
> the tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.
>
> We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who
> had already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the
> veterinarian saw the scar and stopped the procedure.
> Nonetheless, the cat was unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized,
> with all the corresponding stress.
>
> There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not
> needed, such as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's
> backyard, but in the vast majority of cases, it ends up being to
> the cats' benefit to be easily recognized as neutered, and not
> only for the purpose of avoiding being re-trapped and operated
> upon. In New York City, the official animal control agency (the
> Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal policy of
> not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
> animal is being cared for."
>
> Keep up the good work, Lyn!
>
> Megan
>

Good info. While ear-tipping may seem like mutilation to a small
degree, it doesn't hurt them, and it doesn't hurt the overall
beauty of a cat, as modeled by my own former feral, Bonnie in this
pic.

<http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shambondow/detail?.dir=/2a54&.dnm=d37e.jpg&.src=ph>

This is the tried and true method.

--
Cheryl

cybercat
November 13th 05, 01:29 AM
"Phil P." > wrote

> Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing
to
> do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very
serious-
> almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always
the
> same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify neutered
> ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not
make
> it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of
tattooing!
> But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form
of
> the cat.
>

I have to agree. I note from the article that Megan posted that the more
honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 01:56 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote
>
> > Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing
> to
> > do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very
> serious-
> > almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always
> the
> > same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify
neutered
> > ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not
> make
> > it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of
> tattooing!
> > But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form
> of
> > the cat.
> >
>
> I have to agree. I note from the article that Megan posted that the more
> honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
> shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.


The problem is, better ways involve a bit more work- that's why it will
never change.

The founder of Neighborhood Cats and author of the article must feel as
uncomfortable about ear tipping as I do since he didn't tip his own colony
as you can clearly see in the video.

-L.
November 13th 05, 02:17 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> >
> > Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid.
>
>
> It seems stupid to you because you don't understand it-- we just have
> different values and priorities. I just have a little more respect for cats.
> Its kinda like rhythm- either you have it or you don't.

No Phil, it's a stupid argument. You can belittle me all you want - it
has no effect.

>
> In those days and weeks
> > you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
> > neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service.
>
>
> You're over-complicating a very simple issue- which is a sign of lack of
> experience, since I know you're not stupid. Trapping is not as difficult
> as it seems to you - if it is,
> you're doing something wrong.

I'm sure. I'm sure you have never spent weeks trying to get a wiley
cat into a trap. Now who sounds as if they have no experience, Phil?


> I guess Phil
> > has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.
>
> Naa, its a matter of priorities and values- yours are just different than
> mine.

Yeah, my family comes first. Always will. I don't have time to waste
trapping already TNR'ed cats.

> I just don't feel cutting off the tip of a cat's ear just to make my
> job easier is the right thing to do to cat. Its as simple as that.

It has nothing to do with making "my job easier". It has everything to
do with putting more cats through the system, and signaling to whomever
may end up with the cat that he's been TNR'ed. It's great that you
have time and energy to devote to a managed colony. I don't. I do
what I can, as I can, and in doing so, I adhere to the wishes of the
TNR groups nearby - and every one I have ever worked with tips. And I
don't have a problem with because it serves an important purpose, it
whether or not you think it's ugly, and no matter how you try to turn
this into a personal attack.

-L.

-L.
November 13th 05, 02:30 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> >
> > Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
> > so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.
>
> You said "I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
> the impression that you've just begun trapping. Otherwise, you would have
> said "I trap cats too".

Um, I'll choose my own verbage, TYVM. What I meant was I am trapping
cats currently.

>
> > > >
> > > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
> > >
> > >
> > > And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
> in
> > > a covered trap?
> >
> > Not always.
>
>
> Nothing is "always" and 'never". Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
> strays and pet cats that are frantic.
>

I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off. And yes, they were
feral.


>
>
> Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
> Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country. In
> fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
> by NC.

That's stupid.

<snip>

> > >
> > > What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
> one
> > > can exist without the other.
> >
> > Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
> > TNR'd.
>
> No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
> are
> the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with
> little to eat." --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
> breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" -- which
> clearly not true. *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.
>
> For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.

You are misinterpreting what I am writing. The lucky cats are the cats
with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
TNR'd and therefore are lucky. It is the untipped cats in such areas
that aren't so lucky.

>
>
> And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> > with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.
>
>
> Its the *only* system that has been tried.

Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.

> Doesn't mean its the best. For
> that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
> even easier to see. Same principal.
>

Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
tip, Phil. Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
cut off? Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.


>
<snip>

> There is no TNR system- that's the problem. Different cities and towns all
> have their own methods.

"The system" as in the system one uses. The more cats I can TNR, the
better. That involves tipping. I'm sorry that upsets you so much.
Would you rather I - and everyone who tips - stop trapping and
neutering cats altogether?

>
> Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering prevents
> countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
> diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
> population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
> difference.

It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
cause or not. You can't have it both ways.

-L.

-L.
November 13th 05, 02:34 AM
wrote:
> Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
> >I don't know anything about them
>
> I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because it became
> clear very quickly who actually knows what they are doing and who the
> poser is that doesn't. You have made some very good points WRT to
> eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral Cat Coalition and Alley
> Cat Allies hold the same views. Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both
> practice eartipping and agree with the reasons you have stated defending
> the practice in this thread. From:
> http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm
>
> "When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided eartipping as
> it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But everything else we tried
> failed. Taking photos of the neutered cats was fine if you saw the cats
> often and could easily tell similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies
> where the cats were all black and white and the caretaker caught random
> glimpses, the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears,
> but then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had the
> tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.
>
> We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who had
> already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the veterinarian
> saw the scar and stopped the procedure. Nonetheless, the cat was
> unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized, with all the corresponding
> stress.
>
> There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not needed, such
> as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's backyard, but in the vast
> majority of cases, it ends up being to the cats' benefit to be easily
> recognized as neutered, and not only for the purpose of avoiding being
> re-trapped and operated upon. In New York City, the official animal
> control agency (the Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal
> policy of not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
> animal is being cared for."
>
> Keep up the good work, Lyn!
>
> Megan

Thanks and thanks for posting that. I am sure there are many groups
and indiviuals who don't tip - personally I think there needs to be a
visual signal that the cat has been TNRed. I don't have faith that a
large tattoo would be any good - a lot of times you only see
silhouettes in the dark.

-L.

-L.
November 13th 05, 02:36 AM
Cheryl wrote:
>
> Good info. While ear-tipping may seem like mutilation to a small
> degree, it doesn't hurt them, and it doesn't hurt the overall
> beauty of a cat, as modeled by my own former feral, Bonnie in this
> pic.
>
> <http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shambondow/detail?.dir=/2a54&.dnm=d37e.jpg&.src=ph>
>
> This is the tried and true method.
>
> --
> Cheryl

My Mom's cat Otis was tipped - not by a TNR program, but by another
cat! People always asked if he was a former feral. Very pretty
Bonnie, BTW. I'm a sucker for black cats.
-L.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:13 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:

> Um, I'll choose my own verbage, TYVM. What I meant was I am trapping
> cats currently.


I see. Okey dokey.


> I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off. And yes, they were
> feral.


There's actually no need to even touch
the cat. After the cat is in the trap, butt the trap to the squeeze or
transfer cage and raise the vertical door at the back of the trap and the
front vertical door of the squeeze cage. If the cat won't go into the cage,
simply prod the cat gently with a ruler or tilt the trap and cage. The vet
can sedate the cat in the squeeze cage without handling the cat while she's
conscious. After surgery, the vet puts the cat in a carrier or cage (while
she's still asleep) to
recover- you release the cat from the carrier. You should never have to
touch the cat if you don't want to.

You can also get a cat into a carrier from a trap without touching the cat.



> > Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them
names.
> > Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country.
In
> > fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're
certified
> > by NC.
>
> That's stupid.


Not really. Shelters have been sued because people have been injured
setting the traps. Some shelters now make you sign a release before they'll
loan you a trap.



> You are misinterpreting what I am writing. The lucky cats are the cats
> with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
> TNR'd and therefore are lucky. It is the untipped cats in such areas
> that aren't so lucky.


Why? Even if an untipped, tattooed cat was retrapped- she'd only be in the
trap for a few a minutes and released.



> Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.


They didn't try hard or long enough. I admit, tipping is much more
convenient.


>
> > Doesn't mean its the best. For
> > that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because
its
> > even easier to see. Same principal.
> >
>
> Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
> tip, Phil.


Same principal- no benefit for the cat and its easily noticed.



Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
> cut off? Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.


Yes. That's one of the reasons why I oppose tipping. Its just like a
declawing surgery- except glue is used instead of powder.



> Would you rather I - and everyone who tips - stop trapping and
> neutering cats altogether?


No, but I do wish you wouldn't use the straw man fallacy. One can be done
without the other.



> > Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering
prevents
> > countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
> > diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general
feline
> > population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble.
Big
> > difference.
>
> It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
> cause or not.

I see. So, you equate ear tipping with neutering. Declawers, tail dockers,
and ear croppers use the same analogy to justify their position. What's
next analogy, abortion?

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:15 PM
> wrote in message
...
Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
>I don't know anything about them

> Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both
practice eartipping

NC may preach eartipping but it sure doesn't look like they practice it.
You don't see any eartipped cats in the founder's *own* colony, do you- or
are you normally not that observant?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 12:21 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid.
> >
> >
> > It seems stupid to you because you don't understand it-- we just have
> > different values and priorities. I just have a little more respect for
cats.
> > Its kinda like rhythm- either you have it or you don't.
>
> No Phil, it's a stupid argument.


If you feel its a stupid argument, why are you engaging in it? I don't
think its stupid.



You can belittle me all you want - it
> has no effect.


Why do you feel I'm belittling you? I'm not. It just seems you have a
harder time trapping cats than I and people I've taught.


>
> I'm sure. I'm sure you have never spent weeks trying to get a wiley
> cat into a trap. Now who sounds as if they have no experience, Phil?


No. If I can't get a cat into a trap- I use a net or a drop trap. I have a
net specifically designed for catching trap-wise cats. It has a hem sewn
into the net for pulling the net closed after the cat is in the net. The
net can
be loosened to fit around a cage or carrier for transferring the cat.
http://tinyurl.com/dwwhr Simply bait the area for a few days so the cat
associates you with food and won't run when she sees you. After a few days,
the cats will come right up to you.




>
>
> > I guess Phil
> > > has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.
> >
> > Naa, its a matter of priorities and values- yours are just different
than
> > mine.
>
> Yeah, my family comes first. Always will. I don't have time to waste
> trapping already TNR'ed cats.


If that justification works for you then your conscience shouldn't bother
you. Lucky you.


>
> > I just don't feel cutting off the tip of a cat's ear just to make my
> > job easier is the right thing to do to cat. Its as simple as that.
>
> It has nothing to do with making "my job easier". It has everything to
> do with putting more cats through the system,


That's where we differ- I'm more concerned with quality of care than
quantity.


and signaling to whomever
> may end up with the cat that he's been TNR'ed.


A tattoo would serve that purpose just as well. I'd say the only advantage
of tipping is avoiding retrapping a TNR'd cat- but traps don't discriminate-
you could trap either- or even a raccoon. In fact, you're less likely to
retrap a TNR'd cat than a new cat because most TNR'd cats are trap-wise and
would avoid the trap. Even if you did retrap a tattooed, TNR'd cat- the cat
would only be in the trap for a few minutes before being released on the
spot. So the stress would be minimal and very brief.



It's great that you
> have time and energy to devote to a managed colony.


I don't. I make the time because its important to me.


I don't. I do
> what I can, as I can, and in doing so, I adhere to the wishes of the
> TNR groups nearby - and every one I have ever worked with tips. And I
> don't have a problem with because it serves an important purpose, it
> whether or not you think it's ugly, and no matter how you try to turn
> this into a personal attack.


No attack- just diametrically opposed opinions and I don't agree with your
justifications.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 03:31 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > After the cat is in the trap, butt the trap to the squeeze or
> > transfer cage and raise the vertical door at the back of the trap and
the
> > front vertical door of the squeeze cage. If the cat won't go into the
cage,
> > simply prod the cat gently with a ruler or tilt the trap and cage.
>
> I think they show that in the video.


In the video, he's transferring a cat from a single door trap to a
carrier. The technique I explained works like this:
http://tinyurl.com/eytdw


Another method for transferring a cat to a carrier from a single door trap
uses a piece a cardboard that's slid between the trap and carrier after the
cat is in the carrier. The cardboard is slowly slid out as you close the
carrier door. The technique in the video is easier, but you have to be
quick.




> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/

November 13th 05, 04:18 PM
Phil wrote:
>That's one of the reasons why I oppose
>tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-

OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments, no
permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery. A
lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
worse for the wear. This is the kind of
desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

John Doe
November 13th 05, 04:44 PM
"Phil P." <phil maxshouse.com> wrote:
> Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:

....
>
>> Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both practice eartipping
>
> NC may preach eartipping but it sure doesn't look like they
> practice it.

That is silly.
>
> You don't see any eartipped cats in the founder's
> *own* colony, do you- or are you normally not that observant?

Your argument sounds like the familiar "holier than thou" routine.
Apparently your main goal here in this group is to boost your ego.



>
>
>
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John Doe
November 13th 05, 05:11 PM
"cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com> wrote:

....
> I am not arrogant

Liar.



>
>
>
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cybercat
November 13th 05, 05:30 PM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
> >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
>
> OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
> There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments, no
> permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery. A
> lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
> worse for the wear. This is the kind of
> desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
> obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).
>

And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
to snide comments does.

Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed "like a declaw" in the sense
that it is unnecessary mutilation that serves no medical benefit. There
is nothing "beyond ridiculous" about this. You don't have to go rabid
every time someone disagrees with you, Megan. Or if you do, perhaps
you just are not cut out for participating in discussion groups.

John Doe
November 13th 05, 05:38 PM
"Phil P." <phil maxshouse.com> wrote:
> "-L." <gentleboa peacemail.com> wrote in message
>> Phil P. wrote:

>> >
>> > Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or
>> > remote control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could
>> > still be trapped.
>>
>> Sure. But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether
>> or not it is worth setting the trap at all.
>
> Cutting half the tail off would serve the same purpose- .

That is silly.
>
> My concern is the *cat*- not peoples' convenience.

Apparently your real concern is to appear more concerned than anyone
else about cats. You equate removing part of the ear tip with
declawing, obviously for the sole purpose of putting down your
opposition.
>
> I'd certainly rather go through the inconvenience of trapping the
> cat and releasing her than having the cat tipped.

You're incredibly full of yourself.


>
>
>
>
>
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> From: "Phil P." <phil maxshouse.com>
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-L.
November 13th 05, 05:56 PM
cybercat wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Phil wrote:
> > >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
> > >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
> >
> > OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
> > There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments, no
> > permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery. A
> > lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
> > worse for the wear. This is the kind of
> > desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
> > obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).
> >
>
> And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
> as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
> to snide comments does.

Oh Puh-leese. Should we post *your* history, cybercat/Lumpy/Topaz/Mary
S.? Should we mention the fact that you resort to *calling the cops*
on people you disagree with on Usenet? This is just oh-so-cherry
coming from *you*.

As much as you want people to believe in the sweet, nicey-nice version
of yourself you now present - as cybercat or Lumpy - that you want
people to so desperately to believe in, nobody will *ever* forgive or
forget *your history*. So quit trying to play "holier-than-thou" - you
are not fooling anyone. With that single phone call, *you* earned the
all-time Usenet Asshole Award and proved to everyone just how mentally
unstable you really are. So Just STFU.

>
> Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed "like a declaw" in the sense
> that it is unnecessary mutilation that serves no medical benefit.

It serves a medical benefit if it keeps the cat from being euthanized
as a feral at a municipal pound or humane society. The ear tip is a
universal signal that the cat is part of a managed colony. Staying
alive is a medical benefit.

>There
> is nothing "beyond ridiculous" about this. You don't have to go rabid
> every time someone disagrees with you, Megan. Or if you do, perhaps
> you just are not cut out for participating in discussion groups.

See above, Queen of Rabidity.

-L.

John Doe
November 13th 05, 05:59 PM
Why don't you save your righteous judgment for people who douse cats
with gasoline and light them on fire, instead of trolling here in
this group.

Saying that "you shouldn't do this or that because there must be a
better way" is a lazy cop-out. It's kind of like your pat answer
"take it to the vet". It doesn't require you to do anything or even
to think about anything (except post a few self satisfying words to
USENET).

"cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: "cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> References: <1131559944.000588.155920 o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1131560098.443785.122200 z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1131577912.752491.179400 z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <6k65n1t8547jdlioitq38asg4lver5bhgm 4ax.com> <Mqednbr60JJdrO7enZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d giganews.com> <437367a9_3 x-privat.org> <c76dnaLFaPHD7e7eRVn-jA giganews.com> <437373ff_2 x-privat.org> <NIydnenF8Jd8iunenZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d giganews.com> <4374f3d9$1_2 x-privat.org> <osednVF3IOkla-nenZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d comcast.com> <1131742273.507923.200750 g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <mY2dnZ6U2JqRk-jeRVn-rA giganews.com> <1131754959.327541.165130 g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <idmdnSRRebase-jeRVn-rg giganews.com> <1131803699.699930.325840 g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <reCdnQGXUbxgleveRVn-iA giganews.com> <1131821021.516019.29220 g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Declawing etc Illegal in Rome
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>
>
> "-L." <gentleboa peacemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1131821021.516019.29220 g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Phil P. wrote:
>> >
>> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
> years.
>>
>> Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
>> so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>> > >
>> > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
>> >
>> >
>> > And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
> in
>> > a covered trap?
>>
>> Not always.
>>
>> >
>> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
>> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
>> > tipped cats you see?
>> >
>> > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
>> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
>> know. I don't really care.
>>
>
> And this is the crux of the matter, when it comes to you.
>
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
>> > > >
>> > > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
> go
>> > out,
>> > > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
> it.
>> > >
>> > > It doesn't bother me.
>> >
>> >
>> > Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
>> > people, either.
>> >
>>
>> Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
>> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
>> silly, AFAIC.
>
> Why would you want to cut off a part of an animal--any part--if you
> don't HAVE to? That's the real question. Your callousness here is the
> same callousness we see when you tell people to return cats to kill
> shelters just because they have a behavioral issue. Your indifference
> to the individual cats does not make you look like an "old pro,"
> Lyn, as you seem to think. It reveals exactly what you are. A
> hard-hearted control freak who likes to puff herself up by appearing
> to be an "expert" at things--oftentimes to the detriment of other people
> and other creatures, here, to cats.
>
> The kind of person who argues against immediate vet care for injuries
> and illnesses, so that you can give the impression that you are the
> "expert" and those of us whose first concern is that cat the "novices."
> Nobody cares about this kind of thing but you. It is a sign of the sort
> of miserable insecurity that causes a great deal of harm in this world.
> And that is the reason you are repulsive to me. I see right through you,
> and I do care about these creatures more than I care about what people
> think of me. Whether or not I am an "expert." It isn't just that you get on
> my nerves. It isn't just that you cannot lose an argument without flying
> into a frothy rage of "whatevers" and "duhs."
>
>> >
>> > What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
> one
>> > can exist without the other.
>>
>> Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
>> TNR'd. And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
>> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.
>>
>
> Any time your own convenience is more important than protecting
> the animal from needless harm, you are no advocate of cats.
>
>>
>> >
>> > Hey - removing balls is
>> > > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
>> > > little scrotal sacs. ;)
>> >
>> > That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
>> > feline population in general.
>>
>> It's still disfiguring.
>>
>
> And it still is necessary to provide a HUGE health benefit--unlike
> cutting off the tip of the ear. You're wrong. And the horrible thing is
> not that you won't admit it--it is that you will continue to promote
> a practice that disfigures cats and is of no health benefit to them--
> for your own convenience and to satisfy your own fragile ego.
>
> Pathetic. Repulsive and pathetic.
>
>
>
>

John Doe
November 13th 05, 06:03 PM
Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.

"cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: "cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> References: <McOdnUQCqPx4sOrenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d giganews.com> <26953-43776771-764 storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net>
> Subject: Re: Declawing etc Illegal in Rome
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>
>
> <zuzu22 webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:26953-43776771-764 storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
>> Phil wrote:
>> >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
>> >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
>>
>> OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
>> There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments, no
>> permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery. A
>> lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
>> worse for the wear. This is the kind of
>> desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
>> obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).
>>
>
> And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
> as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
> to snide comments does.
>
> Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed "like a declaw" in the sense
> that it is unnecessary mutilation that serves no medical benefit. There
> is nothing "beyond ridiculous" about this. You don't have to go rabid
> every time someone disagrees with you, Megan. Or if you do, perhaps
> you just are not cut out for participating in discussion groups.
>
>
>
>

-L.
November 13th 05, 06:06 PM
Phil P. wrote:

I am not inclined to continue this discussion much further. We just
never will see eye-to-eye and I'm ok with that.

>
> > I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off. And yes, they were
> > feral.
>
>
> There's actually no need to even touch
> the cat.

I wasn't trying to touch the cat. The damn thing was quicker than any
other cat I had ever seen.

>
>
> Not really. Shelters have been sued because people have been injured
> setting the traps. Some shelters now make you sign a release before they'll
> loan you a trap.
>

Wow - that's sad. Sad statement on our society.

>
>
> > You are misinterpreting what I am writing. The lucky cats are the cats
> > with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
> > TNR'd and therefore are lucky. It is the untipped cats in such areas
> > that aren't so lucky.
>
>
> Why? Even if an untipped, tattooed cat was retrapped- she'd only be in the
> trap for a few a minutes and released.
>
>

My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
the aesthetics of a feral cat. I will spend my time and energy
focusing on trying to trap cats that have not been TNRed. The ear tip
helps me do that more efficiently. That's only one benefit of the ear
tip, the rest have been hashed and rehased ad nauseum.


>
> > Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.
>
>
> They didn't try hard or long enough.


How do you know?


> I admit, tipping is much more
> convenient.
>
>
> >
> > Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
> > tip, Phil.
>
>
> Same principal- no benefit for the cat and its easily noticed.

Now you are just being silly.


>
> Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
> > cut off? Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.
>
>
> Yes. That's one of the reasons why I oppose tipping. Its just like a
> declawing surgery- except glue is used instead of powder.


Not in the surgery suites I worked in. Declawing surgery is vastly
more involved - removing the distal phalanx includes bone, tendons,
nerves, and is major surgery. Ear tipping can be done under sedation.
We also used powder to seal the wounds.


> >
> > It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
> > cause or not.
>
> I see. So, you equate ear tipping with neutering.

I didn't equate it. I merely said both are disfiguring, which they
are. If your argument is merely aesthetics (which, as far as I can
tell, is the only objection to tipping), you need to be upset about
both.

-L.

-L.
November 13th 05, 06:10 PM
John Doe wrote:
> Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.

The second part of the statement is correct. Search the history of
"Mary S." on this newsgroup - (under various domain names including
catlover.com and catlovernospam.com) and you will get an idea of who
"cybercat" is. She has a long history in other groups that you can
find as well, without too much poking around. She's also currently
posting as Lumpy, pretending she is two people.

-L.

cybercat
November 13th 05, 06:14 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Phil wrote:
> > > >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
> > > >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
> > >
> > > OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
> > > There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments,
no
> > > permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery.
A
> > > lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
> > > worse for the wear. This is the kind of
> > > desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
> > > obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).
> > >
> >
> > And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
> > as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
> > to snide comments does.
>
> Oh Puh-leese. Should we post *your* history, cybercat/Lumpy/Topaz/Mary
> S.? Should we mention the fact that you resort to *calling the cops*
> on people you disagree with on Usenet? This is just oh-so-cherry
> coming from *you*.
>
> As much as you want people to believe in the sweet, nicey-nice version
> of yourself you now present - as cybercat or Lumpy - that you want
> people to so desperately to believe in, nobody will *ever* forgive or
> forget *your history*. So quit trying to play "holier-than-thou" - you
> are not fooling anyone. With that single phone call, *you* earned the
> all-time Usenet Asshole Award and proved to everyone just how mentally
> unstable you really are. So Just STFU.
>

Uh, right. :)

I am sorry that I cannot help you with the voices inside your head.

My point is, this is a discussion group, so why can't you and Megan
stick to the point and just *discuss the topic at hand* instead of going
rabid and personal on people who are *doing just that.*

I have certainly joined in the flame fests, and I think all of that bull****
got in the way of the discussion, which is supposed to be the point
of discussion groups. It's a simple concept. It does not help you
release any of that bitterness, but it would help the group function
better. Try to have an open mind, Lyn.

The "tipping" discussion is good because it explores the issue along
with all the options. If there really is a better way to mark the cats,
discussions such as these may help identify it--or invent it. Which
is what is supposed to be happening in a good forum. That's my
point. You and Megan and Cheryl turn everything into some
emotion-charged Big Deal. It is entirely unnecessary and gets
in the way of good discussions.

cybercat
November 13th 05, 06:17 PM
"-L." > wrote:
> >
>
> My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
> the aesthetics of a feral cat.

This implies that you might spend your time and energy worrying about
the aesthetics of a non-feral cat. Is that what you mean?

Would it bother you to see your own cat's ear tip cut off?

cybercat
November 13th 05, 06:31 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> John Doe wrote:
> > Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.
>
> The second part of the statement is correct. Search the history of
> "Mary S." on this newsgroup - (under various domain names including
> catlover.com and catlovernospam.com) and you will get an idea of who
> "cybercat" is. She has a long history in other groups that you can
> find as well, without too much poking around. She's also currently
> posting as Lumpy, pretending she is two people.
>

Everyone knows I post as Lumpy, dummy. And John Doe
recalls the history of your little psychosis. You must be hard
up for allies. lol!

Wouldn't it be better just to discuss the topics at hand?
Or wouldn't it be if your arguments had any merit?

Think about it.

November 13th 05, 06:44 PM
Nancy Carter Moore aka cybercat/ lumpy/ topaz/ rosefan/
crazyaboutfelines, etc., etc. wrote:

>Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed
>"like a declaw" in the sense that it is
>unnecessary mutilation that serves no
>medical benefit.

It certainly does offer medical benefits, including saving a feral from
being anesthetized unnecessarily, or being killed (see neighborhood cats
eartipping page and the informal animal control policy.)
Eartipping is a *universal" and most easy to identify mark that shows a
cat has been neutered and is being cared for.

>There is nothing "beyond ridiculous"
>about this. You don't have to go rabid
>every time someone disagrees with you,
>Megan.

Aren't you the selective hypocrite. Disagreeing with a silly comparison
is hardly rabid, although calling the cops on someone and lying is
because your widdle feelings are hurt is. Point your criticism towards
the one here who truly fits your description and deserves it (your slurp
of the moment- followers such as yourself are beyond pathetic.)

>Or if you do, perhaps you just are not cut
>out for participating in discussion groups.

My, my , my, Nancy Carter Moore. Are you telling me how and where I
should post?
So much for your rabid promotion of freedom of expression. You are
Usenet's biggest hypocrite (among other things.)

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 06:55 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> I am not inclined to continue this discussion much further. We just
> never will see eye-to-eye and I'm ok with that.


Me too. I know I can't change your mind and you know you can't change mine.
What's funny about all this is that I actually *agree* with almost all your
points. The problem is I just don't like the idea of ear-tipping.

>
> >
> > > I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off. And yes, they
were
> > > feral.
> >
> >
> > There's actually no need to even touch
> > the cat.
>
> I wasn't trying to touch the cat. The damn thing was quicker than any
> other cat I had ever seen.


Ferals are certainly quicker than the average pet cat - I think they're
smarter too. They have to be to survive.


>
> >
> >
> > Not really. Shelters have been sued because people have been injured
> > setting the traps. Some shelters now make you sign a release before
they'll
> > loan you a trap.
> >
>
> Wow - that's sad. Sad statement on our society.


Sure is- When I first found out about the policy I was shocked, too. I
checked around and found out that a few shelters and even private people
have already been sued because the people they loaned the traps to were
injured. Suing and animal shelter, WTF kind of **** is
that?


>
> >
> >
> > > You are misinterpreting what I am writing. The lucky cats are the
cats
> > > with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
> > > TNR'd and therefore are lucky. It is the untipped cats in such areas
> > > that aren't so lucky.
> >
> >
> > Why? Even if an untipped, tattooed cat was retrapped- she'd only be in
the
> > trap for a few a minutes and released.
> >
> >
>
> My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
> the aesthetics of a feral cat.

That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a cat
without a medical/psychological benefit. Who knows- maybe in the future
someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
scanner at the cat.


I will spend my time and energy
> focusing on trying to trap cats that have not been TNRed. The ear tip
> helps me do that more efficiently. That's only one benefit of the ear
> tip, the rest have been hashed and rehased ad nauseum.


What's so aggravating for me about this argument is that logically *you're
right*! You can spot a tipped cat at 100 yards and in silhouette at night.
Whereas a tattoo isn't as noticeable from a distance.


> I didn't equate it. I merely said both are disfiguring, which they
> are. If your argument is merely aesthetics (which, as far as I can
> tell, is the only objection to tipping), you need to be upset about
> both.

Not really. Neutering provides health and psychological benefits for the
cat as well as prevents thousands of deaths.

Phil

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 06:56 PM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
> >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
>
> OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.


Its the SAME principle- amputation with no benefit for the cat-- or don't
you consider slicing off a healthy piece of the ear amputation?



This is the kind of
> desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
> obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).

Probably not as much as your posting links that contradict yourself in a
desperate attempt to prove me wrong. LOL! At least I taught you to read
articles before you quote them. (RE: Managing Pancreatitis). Thanks for
your concern about my credibility. It seems like my credibility is more
important to you than it is to me.

Btw, this isn't a win-lose argument. Its a matter of diametrically opposed
opinions that *won't* be changed on either side. Can't you see through your
venom and frustration where I said ear tipping *is* more noticeable and
popular but I still don't like it? Or do you just like jumping on my posts
and making an ass of yourself every chance you get?

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 06:57 PM
"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>
> Your argument sounds like the familiar "holier than thou" routine.

Your post sounds like your usual stupidity. Everyone already knows you're a
moron - you don't have to keep proving it. When you hide behind a fake
screen name, you can make as big of an ass of yourself as you please.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 06:59 PM
"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.

Looks the moron is on another posting frenzy with his usual mindless
blather. Did they let you out of the institution for the weekend or did
they throw you out with the other garbage?

Lumpy
November 13th 05, 06:59 PM
"Phil P." > wrote:

> > My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
> > the aesthetics of a feral cat.
>
> That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a
cat
> without a medical/psychological benefit. Who knows- maybe in the future
> someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
> scanner at the cat.
>

Now that would be cool. Even better, something that detects a uterus
or testes. :)

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 06:59 PM
"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> You're incredibly full of yourself.

You're incredibly stupid- but that's old news- everyone already knows you're
a moron- you don't have to keep proving it.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 07:11 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > > My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
> > > the aesthetics of a feral cat.
> >
> > That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a
> cat
> > without a medical/psychological benefit. Who knows- maybe in the future
> > someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
> > scanner at the cat.
> >
>
> Now that would be cool. Even better, something that detects a uterus
> or testes. :)


There is- an ultrasound scanner. There's even a model that can worn on the
forearm!

http://www.50s-tringa.com/50s_tringa.htm

I definitely gotta get me one of those!

cybercat
November 13th 05, 07:12 PM
> wrote in message
...
> Nancy Carter Moore aka cybercat/ lumpy/ topaz/ rosefan/
> crazyaboutfelines, etc., etc. wrote:
>
> >Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed
> >"like a declaw" in the sense that it is
> >unnecessary mutilation that serves no
> >medical benefit.
>
> It certainly does offer medical benefits, including saving a feral from
> being anesthetized unnecessarily, or being killed (see neighborhood cats
> eartipping page and the informal animal control policy.)

No, Megan [last name no doubt soon to be posted], the tipping itself does
not
offer any medical benefits. It is the spaying and neutering that offers
medical benefits. And we have already established the fact that cutting off
the tip of the ear is not necessary in order to TNR.

> Eartipping is a *universal" and most easy to identify mark that shows a
> cat has been neutered and is being cared for.

The argument that something is good because "everybody does it"
really does not hold any water. When the common identifying practice
includes cutting off a part of an animal, there is definitely room for
improvement.

>
> >There is nothing "beyond ridiculous"
> >about this. You don't have to go rabid
> >every time someone disagrees with you,
> >Megan.
>
> Aren't you the selective hypocrite. Disagreeing with a silly comparison
> is hardly rabid

I thought your tone was quite nasty.

, although calling the cops on someone and lying is
> because your widdle feelings are hurt is. Point your criticism towards
> the one here who truly fits your description and deserves it (your slurp
> of the moment- followers such as yourself are beyond pathetic.)

Again, I cannot help with your shared psychoses.

>
> >Or if you do, perhaps you just are not cut
> >out for participating in discussion groups.
>
> My, my , my, Nancy Carter Moore. Are you telling me how and where I
> should post?

Since you appear to have comprehension problems, I will say it again:
everyone who disagrees with you is not making a personal affront.
That part is all in your head. And when you--or anyone--resorts to
nasty personal attacks, it just gets in the way of a good discussion.
And, like raising your voice, it is nearly always a sign that your
argument is weak.

> So much for your rabid promotion of freedom of expression. You are
> Usenet's biggest hypocrite (among other things.)
>

I am all for freedom of expression. I just expressed my ideas about
improving this forum, in terms of the discussion of the health and
behavior of cats. Until I try to force you--for example, by illegal
harassment of those in your personal life or of you, which is a
felony where you live, as I am sure you know--or until I tell you,
as your good buddy Lyn said, to "STFU," a cute little acronym
for "shut the **** up" just as your "FFS" is a precious little
acronym for "for ****'s sake" (which, by the way, sounds a bit
over the top, even rabid, I would say, in the context of a
discussion of a means of marking cats so that rescuers know they
are spayed or neutered) then I am not even trying to interfere
with your freedom of speech. We are merely having a discussion.

Moreover, regarding hypocrisy, healthy living things are dynamic.
They change and grow all the time, for better and worse. There is
therefore no great honor in doggedly sticking to the same opinions
forever. I find that such consistency is generally a sign of a dull
mind.

cybercat
November 13th 05, 07:21 PM
"Phil P." > wrote

> Btw, this isn't a win-lose argument. Its a matter of diametrically opposed
> opinions that *won't* be changed on either side. Can't you see through
your
> venom and frustration where I said ear tipping *is* more noticeable and
> popular but I still don't like it?

Of course it is more noticable. For you and for me, the fact that ear
tipping
makes it easier on the trappers is not even in question. I was thinking more
about the cats, as I think you are. And I still think there must be a way
that
is as effective at identifying them but does not entail cutting anything
off.

I truly believe most if not all TNR people would be happier if that way were
found. I can hardly believe anyone would argue against it.

cybercat
November 13th 05, 07:22 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.
>
> Looks the moron is on another posting frenzy with his usual mindless
> blather. Did they let you out of the institution for the weekend or did
> they throw you out with the other garbage?
>

Cat's out of the bag, Phil. I am really your sockpuppet. If you begin
to get harassed at home, let me know. :)

No More Retail
November 13th 05, 07:24 PM
Those are sweet I may have to buy my vet one for Christmas

cybercat
November 13th 05, 07:27 PM
"No More Retail" > wrote in message
...
> Those are sweet I may have to buy my vet one for Christmas
>
>
What are sweet? Do I need one?

No More Retail
November 13th 05, 07:57 PM
the image scanner see post below
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "No More Retail" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Those are sweet I may have to buy my vet one for Christmas
>>
>>
> What are sweet? Do I need one?

"Lumpy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > > My point was, I am not going to spend time and energy worrying about
> > > the aesthetics of a feral cat.
> >
> > That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a
> cat
> > without a medical/psychological benefit. Who knows- maybe in the future
> > someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
> > scanner at the cat.
> >
>
> Now that would be cool. Even better, something that detects a uterus
> or testes. :)


There is- an ultrasound scanner. There's even a model that can worn on the
forearm!

http://www.50s-tringa.com/50s_tringa.htm

I definitely gotta get me one of those!


>
>

PawsForThought
November 14th 05, 01:12 AM
cybercat wrote:
> "Phil P." > wrote

> Of course it is more noticable. For you and for me, the fact that ear
> tipping
> makes it easier on the trappers is not even in question. I was thinking more
> about the cats, as I think you are. And I still think there must be a way
> that
> is as effective at identifying them but does not entail cutting anything
> off.
>
> I truly believe most if not all TNR people would be happier if that way were
> found. I can hardly believe anyone would argue against it.

I've been sitting here thinking there has to be a better way to mark
these cats. Too bad claws grow or you could put colored "softpaws" on
a claw or two. Whiskers grow too, so nothing there. Would be nice if
there was some sort of permanent stamp you could put on the bottom of a
paw, maybe something along the lines of tatooing, but not invasive like
tatooing is. Collars? Of course it would have to be a safety collar
and something the cat couldn't get caught up in. I don't know....just
a few random thoughts

Lauren

See my cats: http://tinyurl.com/76tg8

-L.
November 14th 05, 01:32 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> Me too. I know I can't change your mind and you know you can't change mine.
> What's funny about all this is that I actually *agree* with almost all your
> points. The problem is I just don't like the idea of ear-tipping.

I don't *like* it either, and if there was an alternative that was as
effective, I'd be all for it. I'm just not going to lose sleep over a
feral being tipped - it's just not a big deal to me because I see it as
necessary.
<snip>

> Suing and animal shelter, WTF kind of **** is
> that?

Some major kind of FUS, if you ask me.


>
> That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a cat
> without a medical/psychological benefit.

What we actually disagree on is this: You don't see medical benefit, I
do. If it keeps a managed feral from being euthed as a feral, then
there *is* a "medical" - or a better term would be "whole-life" -
benefit for the cat. If it makes it easier to TNR more cats, there is
benefit to the cat population, as a whole.



> Who knows- maybe in the future
> someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
> scanner at the cat.

That would be awesome.

> What's so aggravating for me about this argument is that logically *you're
> right*! You can spot a tipped cat at 100 yards and in silhouette at night.
> Whereas a tattoo isn't as noticeable from a distance.

Thank you.

Now why did we argue back and forth for the last 3 days? LOL...

-L.

Wendy
November 14th 05, 02:42 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "-L." > wrote in message
>> > oups.com...
>> >>
>> >> Wendy wrote:
>> >> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
>> >> > cats
>> > ear
>> >> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
>> > trapper.
>> >>
>> >> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
>> >> being the two biggest.
>> >
>> > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and
>> > only
>> > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
> early
>> > neuters.
>> >
>> >
>> > There's no way you are going to see the inside
>> >> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
>> >
>> > You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo
>> > when
>> > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
>>
>>
>> That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
>> trying
>> to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
>> didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.
>
> Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
> convenience, right?
>
>
Awwwww, poor baby?????????? Such an intelligent argument.

No More Retail
November 14th 05, 02:46 AM
Sometimes the best intentions have the worse consequences

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 05:32 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > Me too. I know I can't change your mind and you know you can't change
mine.
> > What's funny about all this is that I actually *agree* with almost all
your
> > points. The problem is I just don't like the idea of ear-tipping.
>
> I don't *like* it either, and if there was an alternative that was as
> effective, I'd be all for it.


There is- tattooing. It just involves a bit more work.



> > That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a
cat
> > without a medical/psychological benefit.
>
> What we actually disagree on is this: You don't see medical benefit, I
> do. If it keeps a managed feral from being euthed as a feral, then
> there *is* a "medical" - or a better term would be "whole-life" -
> benefit for the cat.


That's where we disagree. A tattoo would serve the same purpose. If the
cat was tattooed, the worst case scenario is the cat would spend 5 minutes
in a trap and would be released on the spot. Also, a previously trapped cat
is less likely to be trapped again because she would be trap-wise after her
first experience. Thus, you wouldn't re-trap as many TNR'd cats as you
might think -- Remember the old saying: "A cat bitten once by a snake fears
even rope".



If it makes it easier to TNR more cats, there is
> benefit to the cat population, as a whole.


As I said: I agree a tipped cat is easier to identify from a distance.
Tattooing involves a bit more work.



> > Who knows- maybe in the future
> > someone will invent a chip that be read at 100 yards by just pointing a
> > scanner at the cat.
>
> That would be awesome.


I think its possible- and even hopefully, GPS chips for pet cats.


>
> > What's so aggravating for me about this argument is that logically
*you're
> > right*! You can spot a tipped cat at 100 yards and in silhouette at
night.
> > Whereas a tattoo isn't as noticeable from a distance.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Now why did we argue back and forth for the last 3 days? LOL...


Because we disagree- and we will probably always disagree about this ! ;-)

Phil

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 05:32 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Wendy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "-L." > wrote in message
> >> > oups.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> Wendy wrote:
> >> >> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of
a
> >> >> > cats
> >> > ear
> >> >> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
> >> > trapper.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and
visibility
> >> >> being the two biggest.
> >> >
> >> > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing
and
> >> > only
> >> > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
> > early
> >> > neuters.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > There's no way you are going to see the inside
> >> >> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.
> >> >
> >> > You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the
tattoo
> >> > when
> >> > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
> >>
> >>
> >> That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
> >> trying
> >> to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find
they
> >> didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.
> >
> > Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
> > convenience, right?
> >
> >
> Awwwww, poor baby?????????? Such an intelligent argument.


Well, you were whining about a little extra work, so, I felt sorry for you.

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 05:33 AM
"No More Retail" > wrote in message
...
> Those are sweet I may have to buy my vet one for Christmas


It sure is. Tell me that wouldn't be handy during admissions. It even
comes with a dual frequency transducer- so you'd only need one probe. It
would also make ultrasound-guided biopsy and surgery dramatically easier and
accurate; the screen would be right on his wrist!

The only drawback is the images are in black & white- and no Doppler. Maybe
the next model will have it.

-L.
November 14th 05, 07:29 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> > I don't *like* it either, and if there was an alternative that was as
> > effective, I'd be all for it.
>
>
> There is- tattooing. It just involves a bit more work.

Phil, Phil, Phil. You just admitted tattoos can't be seen in sihouette
or at a distance. <sigh> It's not as effective for my purposes/needs
in TNRing.

>
>
>
> > > That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in disfiguring a
> cat
> > > without a medical/psychological benefit.
> >
> > What we actually disagree on is this: You don't see medical benefit, I
> > do. If it keeps a managed feral from being euthed as a feral, then
> > there *is* a "medical" - or a better term would be "whole-life" -
> > benefit for the cat.
>
>
> That's where we disagree. A tattoo would serve the same purpose.

That's true.

> If the
> cat was tattooed, the worst case scenario is the cat would spend 5 minutes
> in a trap and would be released on the spot. Also, a previously trapped cat
> is less likely to be trapped again because she would be trap-wise after her
> first experience. Thus, you wouldn't re-trap as many TNR'd cats as you
> might think -- Remember the old saying: "A cat bitten once by a snake fears
> even rope".

I have encountered cats that are so dumb it's almost like they *want*
to be in the trap. One in particular we ended up trapping and holding
aside, and then set out to trap the target cats. She was a bizarre
cat.

My situation, though, by and large is people calling me to catch a
rogue cat/cat(s), especially when rainy season starts - many of which
are feral as the area abuts a wilderness area. The marking has to be
seen at night (that's where the silhouette comes in handy) and from a
distance. I just don't see a tatoo being effective for the situation I
am working in.

>
> Because we disagree- and we will probably always disagree about this ! ;-)
>

Yeah, well - at least we have something worthwhile to argue about. ;)

-L.

Wendy
November 14th 05, 12:00 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> Phil P. wrote:
>> >
>> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
> years.
>>
>> Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
>> so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.
>
>
>
> You said "I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now." "Now" gave
> me
> the impression that you've just begun trapping. Otherwise, you would have
> said "I trap cats too".
>
>
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>> > >
>> > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.
>> >
>> >
>> > And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her
>> > alone
> in
>> > a covered trap?
>>
>> Not always.
>
>
> Nothing is "always" and 'never". Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its
> the
> strays and pet cats that are frantic.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley
>> > Cat
>> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
>> > tipped cats you see?
>> >
>> > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
>> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
>> know. I don't really care.
>
>
> Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
> Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country.
> In
> fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're
> certified
> by NC.
>
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
>> > > >
>> > > > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
> go
>> > out,
>> > > > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
> it.
>> > >
>> > > It doesn't bother me.
>> >
>> >
>> > Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
>> > people, either.
>> >
>>
>> Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
>> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
>> silly, AFAIC.
>
>
> No, its not a matter of looking silly. Its a matter of disfiguring a cat
> for
> convenience. Many people feel they can do whatever they like to ferals
> because they're "helping" them and otherwise the cats would be killed.
> The
> problem is tipping has become so convenient and routine that nobody wants
> to
> change it- or even knows how do anything else.
>
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
>> > > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and
> trying
>> > > to raise kittens with little to eat.
>> >
>> >
>> > What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
> one
>> > can exist without the other.
>>
>> Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
>> TNR'd.
>
> No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
> are
> the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens
> with
> little to eat." --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
> breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" --
> which
> clearly not true. *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.
>
> For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.
>
>
> And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
>> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.
>
>
> Its the *only* system that has been tried. Doesn't mean its the best.
> For
> that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because
> its
> even easier to see. Same principal.
>
>
>>
>> >None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
>> > neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies-
> except
>> > for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we
>> > trapped
>> > them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens
> are
>> > viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?
>> >
>>
>> Depends on how close she is.
>
>
> I said the third trimester.
>
>
> I don't have any problem aborting kittens
>> if that's what you are asking. I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
>> and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
>> thought it was pretty sick. Most of any size may move but never take a
>> breath. I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
>> shelter. I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.
>
>
> So, would you abort a queen in her third trimester when the kittens are
> viable? If so, the *kittens* would be *killed* not aborted.
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Anything that makes it easier to
>> > > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
>> >
>> > Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good
> quality
>> > of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are
> they ok
>> > by you too?
>>
>> I am talking about the TNR system.
>
>
> There is no TNR system- that's the problem. Different cities and towns
> all
> have their own methods.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > Hey - removing balls is
>> > > difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled
>> > > up
>> > > little scrotal sacs. ;)
>> >
>> > That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
>> > feline population in general.
>>
>> It's still disfiguring.
>
>
> Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering prevents
> countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
> diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
> population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
> difference.
>
> Phil
>
Oh come on Phil. You yourself said that it's difficult to re-trap a cat. You
can spend a whole lot of time trying to do that. There are also cats who
have not been spayed and neutered who are as difficult to trap. There is a
cat that other volunteers have been unsuccessfully trying to trap for 2
years who they think has not been spayed (someone is having kittens and
she's the likely suspect). These are experienced trappers (15 years), she's
just a wiley old girl. However, if they finally manage to get her and find
that she's already been trapped and spayed that would be a WHOLE LOT of time
that was spent on the wrong cat. This isn't a colony that is being managed,
it's a bunch of cats living behind a restaurant. We've been taking cats out
of there and either getting them adopted or relocating (not a safe place to
return them to - too much traffic etc.) for a couple of years. We're
getting down to the last few but suspect the restaurant owner may be hiding
a few from us. Wouldn't be a problem if he'd get them spayed/neutered but he
doesn't bother with that.

W

Wendy
November 14th 05, 12:04 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> cybercat wrote:
>> > > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > Phil wrote:
>> > > >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
>> > > >tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-
>> > >
>> > > OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
>> > > There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments,
> no
>> > > permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post
>> > > surgery.
> A
>> > > lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
>> > > worse for the wear. This is the kind of
>> > > desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
>> > > obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).
>> > >
>> >
>> > And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
>> > as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
>> > to snide comments does.
>>
>> Oh Puh-leese. Should we post *your* history, cybercat/Lumpy/Topaz/Mary
>> S.? Should we mention the fact that you resort to *calling the cops*
>> on people you disagree with on Usenet? This is just oh-so-cherry
>> coming from *you*.
>>
>> As much as you want people to believe in the sweet, nicey-nice version
>> of yourself you now present - as cybercat or Lumpy - that you want
>> people to so desperately to believe in, nobody will *ever* forgive or
>> forget *your history*. So quit trying to play "holier-than-thou" - you
>> are not fooling anyone. With that single phone call, *you* earned the
>> all-time Usenet Asshole Award and proved to everyone just how mentally
>> unstable you really are. So Just STFU.
>>
>
> Uh, right. :)
>
> I am sorry that I cannot help you with the voices inside your head.
>
> My point is, this is a discussion group, so why can't you and Megan
> stick to the point and just *discuss the topic at hand* instead of going
> rabid and personal on people who are *doing just that.*
>
> I have certainly joined in the flame fests, and I think all of that
> bull****
> got in the way of the discussion, which is supposed to be the point
> of discussion groups. It's a simple concept. It does not help you
> release any of that bitterness, but it would help the group function
> better. Try to have an open mind, Lyn.
>
> The "tipping" discussion is good because it explores the issue along
> with all the options. If there really is a better way to mark the cats,
> discussions such as these may help identify it--or invent it. Which
> is what is supposed to be happening in a good forum. That's my
> point. You and Megan and Cheryl turn everything into some
> emotion-charged Big Deal. It is entirely unnecessary and gets
> in the way of good discussions.
>
>

At this point I think it needs to be invented - and the funding to do it
needs inventing too. Too many cats, not enough time or money.

W

cybercat
November 14th 05, 12:33 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

>We're getting down to the last few but suspect the restaurant owner may be
hiding
> a few from us. Wouldn't be a problem if he'd get them spayed/neutered but
he
> doesn't bother with that.
>

What a jerk. I wonder if anyone could get any of his family members or
employees to help?

cybercat
November 14th 05, 12:36 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

> > The "tipping" discussion is good because it explores the issue along
> > with all the options. If there really is a better way to mark the cats,
> > discussions such as these may help identify it--or invent it. Which
> > is what is supposed to be happening in a good forum. That's my
> > point. You and Megan and Cheryl turn everything into some
> > emotion-charged Big Deal. It is entirely unnecessary and gets
> > in the way of good discussions.
> >
> >
>
> At this point I think it needs to be invented - and the funding to do it
> needs inventing too. Too many cats, not enough time or money.
>

Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
of view that cutting could be avoided.

Wendy
November 14th 05, 12:51 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Wendy" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Phil P." > wrote :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
>> >> >> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the
> pinna
>> >> > would
>> >> >> be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
>> >> > registration
>> >> >> number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go
> out
>> > of
>> >> >> business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo
> would
>> >> > only
>> >> >> need be
>> >> >> a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and
> managed.
>> >> >> A
>> >> >> large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
>> >> >> sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as
>> >> >> noticible
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> tipping.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must
>> >> >> be
>> >> > trapped
>> >> >> to be scanned.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
>> > organizations.
>> >> >> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
>> >> >> identifying
>> >> >> managed ferals.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear
>> >> > tipping
>> >> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're
>> >> > right
>> > then
>> >> > cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
>> >> > suspected,
>> >> > just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do.
> That
>> > is
>> >> > what
>> >> > I feared.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
> cats
>> > ear
>> >> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
> trapper.
>> >
>> > A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat
>> > was
>> > trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a
> few
>> > inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
>> > spot.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony?
>
>
> Err, records and pictures... and err, memory? Most managers *know* every
> cat in their
> colonies.
>
> Do you work with ferals? Sounds like you're calling plays from the
> bleachers.
>
>
>
All right it was a bit of an exaggeration to say the whole lot. We'd only
have to trap all the solid black ones of a similar size with yellow eyes.
Probably some of the tabbies too depending the diversity of patterns. I've
seen tabby littermates that have been tough to tell apart too without both
being there at the same time.

Wendy
November 14th 05, 05:09 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote
>
>>We're getting down to the last few but suspect the restaurant owner may be
> hiding
>> a few from us. Wouldn't be a problem if he'd get them spayed/neutered but
> he
>> doesn't bother with that.
>>
>
> What a jerk. I wonder if anyone could get any of his family members or
> employees to help?
>
>

At least he's not drowning the kittens. We had to grab a day old litter to
keep them from being drowned by a manager in a horse barn. Jerks abound out
there.

-L.
November 14th 05, 06:00 PM
Wendy wrote:
> >
> Oh come on Phil. You yourself said that it's difficult to re-trap a cat. You
> can spend a whole lot of time trying to do that. There are also cats who
> have not been spayed and neutered who are as difficult to trap. There is a
> cat that other volunteers have been unsuccessfully trying to trap for 2
> years who they think has not been spayed (someone is having kittens and
> she's the likely suspect). These are experienced trappers (15 years), she's
> just a wiley old girl

Isn't it funny that the trap saavy ones are always the females? A
friend of mine had a similar situation - one of her ferals was just
incredibly difficult to catch. She finally got her after 3 years -
only female in the colony not spayed. Of course during that period of
3 years, she had 6 litters of kittens...

-L.

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 07:46 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > I don't *like* it either, and if there was an alternative that was as
> > > effective, I'd be all for it.
> >
> >
> > There is- tattooing. It just involves a bit more work.
>
> Phil, Phil, Phil. You just admitted tattoos can't be seen in sihouette
> or at a distance. <sigh>


Yes, I did. You're correct. Ear-tipping is more noticeable. I though we
already agreed on that point.



It's not as effective for my purposes/needs
> in TNRing.


It could be if you wanted it to be. You're just content with your present
policy and feel there's no reason to change it. I just don't agree.



> > > > That's the main issue we disagree on. I don't believe in
disfiguring a
> > cat
> > > > without a medical/psychological benefit.
> > >
> > > What we actually disagree on is this: You don't see medical benefit, I
> > > do. If it keeps a managed feral from being euthed as a feral, then
> > > there *is* a "medical" - or a better term would be "whole-life" -
> > > benefit for the cat.
> >
> >
> > That's where we disagree. A tattoo would serve the same purpose.
>
> That's true.
>
> > If the
> > cat was tattooed, the worst case scenario is the cat would spend 5
minutes
> > in a trap and would be released on the spot. Also, a previously trapped
cat
> > is less likely to be trapped again because she would be trap-wise after
her
> > first experience. Thus, you wouldn't re-trap as many TNR'd cats as you
> > might think -- Remember the old saying: "A cat bitten once by a snake
fears
> > even rope".
>
> I have encountered cats that are so dumb it's almost like they *want*
> to be in the trap. One in particular we ended up trapping and holding
> aside, and then set out to trap the target cats. She was a bizarre
> cat.


Yep. Some cats are smarter than others and some are more trusting than
others. She sounds like she might be a candidate for adoption.


>
> My situation, though, by and large is people calling me to catch a
> rogue cat/cat(s), especially when rainy season starts - many of which
> are feral as the area abuts a wilderness area. The marking has to be
> seen at night (that's where the silhouette comes in handy) and from a
> distance. I just don't see a tatoo being effective for the situation I
> am working in.


Yes- you've already explained your reasons for your decisions. As I said,
tattooing involves a bit more work. I admit that. If someone didn't think
up the idea of ear-tipping, you would have found another way, correct?.
Just like the people in England, Germany, etc. found a way to live in
harmony with their cats without declawing them- because declawing is
illegal. What would you do if ear-tipping was outlawed? Quit? Or adapt?


>
> >
> > Because we disagree- and we will probably always disagree about this !
;-)
> >
>
> Yeah, well - at least we have something worthwhile to argue about. ;)


Yeah- but now we're going around in circles. ;-) You say the same things
and I say the same things. You're just as unlikely to convert to my point
of view as I am to convert to yours. Ear-tipping just goes against my
nature. I wouldn't change my feelings about it even if the Pope gave it his
blessings, and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

It is a good topic, though. Hopefully, discussions (wars) will spawn
changes because I know many people feel the same way about ear-tipping as I
do.

Phil.

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 07:48 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...

> > Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering
prevents
> > countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
> > diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general
feline
> > population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble.
Big
> > difference.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> Oh come on Phil. You yourself said that it's difficult to re-trap a cat.


Yes- with the same type of trap. There's more than one way to trap a
trap-wise cat.



You
> can spend a whole lot of time trying to do that. There are also cats who
> have not been spayed and neutered who are as difficult to trap.


Yep. There sure are. However, 'difficult' is a relative term.


There is a
> cat that other volunteers have been unsuccessfully trying to trap for 2
> years who they think has not been spayed (someone is having kittens and
> she's the likely suspect). These are experienced trappers (15 years),


Maybe its time they try a different method, doncha think? I know several
trappers who've been trapping for many years- great people with hearts as
big as the sky, but they're just not the brightest bulbs in the lamp- bless
their hearts- and I mean that with profound respect.



she's
> just a wiley old girl. However, if they finally manage to get her and find
> that she's already been trapped and spayed that would be a WHOLE LOT of
time
> that was spent on the wrong cat.


Two years on one cat? It sure would be a whole lot of time spent on the
wrong cat -- or on *any* cat.



This isn't a colony that is being managed,
> it's a bunch of cats living behind a restaurant. We've been taking cats
out
> of there and either getting them adopted or relocating (not a safe place
to
> return them to - too much traffic etc.) for a couple of years.


Relocating ferals? I hope you're know the process and what's involved and
you're not just releasing the cats in a new territory.



We're
> getting down to the last few but suspect the restaurant owner may be
hiding
> a few from us. Wouldn't be a problem if he'd get them spayed/neutered but
he
> doesn't bother with that.


Offer to get the cats neutered yourself- even offer to pay if you have to.
However, let me warn you, restaurant owners like a lot of cats feeding on
their garbage because the cats keep mice and rats away. So, they can be
very tough nuts to crack.

Good luck.

Phil P.
November 14th 05, 07:49 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...


> All right it was a bit of an exaggeration to say the whole lot. We'd only
> have to trap all the solid black ones of a similar size with yellow eyes.
> Probably some of the tabbies too depending the diversity of patterns. I've
> seen tabby littermates that have been tough to tell apart too without both
> being there at the same time.

A tattoo would sure make it easier to identify them, wouldn't it? - even if
they were ear-tipped, unless you tipped opposite ears-- then you'd still
have to remember which was which.

cybercat
November 14th 05, 08:35 PM
"Phil P." > wrote

> Yeah- but now we're going around in circles. ;-) You say the same things
> and I say the same things. You're just as unlikely to convert to my point
> of view as I am to convert to yours. Ear-tipping just goes against my
> nature. I wouldn't change my feelings about it even if the Pope gave it
his
> blessings, and I'm sure you wouldn't either.
>
> It is a good topic, though. Hopefully, discussions (wars) will spawn
> changes because I know many people feel the same way about ear-tipping as
I
> do.
>

Yep. I had the feeling a lot of people are bothered by it but nobody was
talking about it. Lots of good things come from free and open discussion.
And nobody has to go psycho, either. lol

-L.
November 15th 05, 05:07 PM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
> rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
> having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
> way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
> have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
> much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
> of view that cutting could be avoided.

And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
thousands of times, very close together. The entire tattooed area
bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
an ear tip. The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
a large tattoo. If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
as repugnant.

-L.

cybercat
November 15th 05, 06:00 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> >
> > Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
> > rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
> > having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
> > way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
> > have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
> > much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
> > of view that cutting could be avoided.
>
> And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
> cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
> thousands of times, very close together. The entire tattooed area
> bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
> there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
> an ear tip. The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
> weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
> likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
> a large tattoo. If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> as repugnant.
>

It's cutting OFF.

Phil P.
November 15th 05, 07:38 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> >
> > Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
> > rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
> > having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
> > way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
> > have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
> > much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
> > of view that cutting could be avoided.
>
> And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
> cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
> thousands of times, very close together.



The punctures are made in rapid succession- like a sewing machine. The
individual punctures aren't felt. So "thousands of times" is merely
hyperbole. The cat would be anesthetized anyway, so its a moot point.



The entire tattooed area
> bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
> there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
> an ear tip.


Naaa, tattooing would be done while the cat is still anesthetized from
neutering, and the post-op pain meds for neutering would also mitigate any
post-op pain from tatooing-- unless you don't believe in post-op pain
management?




The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
> weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
> likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
> a large tattoo.


I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!



If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> as repugnant.

It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
cat's ear.

Phil

Wendy
November 15th 05, 09:15 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> cybercat wrote:
>> >
>> > Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
>> > rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
>> > having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
>> > way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
>> > have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
>> > much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
>> > of view that cutting could be avoided.
>>
>> And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
>> cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
>> thousands of times, very close together.
>
>
>
> The punctures are made in rapid succession- like a sewing machine. The
> individual punctures aren't felt. So "thousands of times" is merely
> hyperbole. The cat would be anesthetized anyway, so its a moot point.
>
>
>
> The entire tattooed area
>> bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
>> there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
>> an ear tip.
>
>
> Naaa, tattooing would be done while the cat is still anesthetized from
> neutering, and the post-op pain meds for neutering would also mitigate any
> post-op pain from tatooing-- unless you don't believe in post-op pain
> management?
>
>
>
>
> The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
>> weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
>> likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
>> a large tattoo.
>
>
> I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!
>
>
>
> If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
>> as repugnant.
>
> It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
> cat's ear.
>
> Phil
>
>
So your objection is an appearance thing? Sounds like both procedures would
be equally uncomfortable for the cat (scabs - healing - etc) and neither
'medically necessary' by your definition.

W

whitershadeofpale
November 15th 05, 09:15 PM
Phil P. wrote:

> I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!
>
>
>
> If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> > as repugnant.
>
> It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
> cat's ear.
>
> Phil

ok, im just cutting in right here...please excuse my indulgence..

It's not my field, but if the technology exists to for example...
pinpoint you're exact location on the planet (by gps, or triangulation)
then the tech exists to avoid ear croppings, or nippings...

I am more inclined to believe that funding is the real issue

but really, from what I have seen, cats is a rich womans business!

Pussy Rocks The World!
Don't you forget it!

Wendy
November 15th 05, 09:18 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> cybercat wrote:
>> >
>> > Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
>> > rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
>> > having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
>> > way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
>> > have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
>> > much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
>> > of view that cutting could be avoided.
>>
>> And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
>> cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
>> thousands of times, very close together.
>
>
>
> The punctures are made in rapid succession- like a sewing machine. The
> individual punctures aren't felt. So "thousands of times" is merely
> hyperbole. The cat would be anesthetized anyway, so its a moot point.
>
>
>
> The entire tattooed area
>> bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
>> there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
>> an ear tip.
>
>
> Naaa, tattooing would be done while the cat is still anesthetized from
> neutering, and the post-op pain meds for neutering would also mitigate any
> post-op pain from tatooing-- unless you don't believe in post-op pain
> management?
>
>
>
>
> The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
>> weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
>> likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
>> a large tattoo.
>
>
> I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!
>
>
>
> If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
>> as repugnant.
>
> It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
> cat's ear.
>
> Phil
>
My cat just informed me that he wouldn't be caught dead hanging with one of
those tattooed biker cats ;o)

whitershadeofpale
November 15th 05, 09:27 PM
-L. wrote:
> John Doe wrote:
> > Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.
>
> The second part of the statement is correct. Search the history of
> "Mary S." on this newsgroup - (under various domain names including
> catlover.com and catlovernospam.com) and you will get an idea of who
> "cybercat" is. She has a long history in other groups that you can
> find as well, without too much poking around. She's also currently
> posting as Lumpy, pretending she is two people.
>
> -L.

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo!

Lumpy
November 15th 05, 10:37 PM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> -L. wrote:
> > John Doe wrote:
> > > Apparently Phil's sock puppet or just a troll.
> >
> > The second part of the statement is correct. Search the history of
> > "Mary S." on this newsgroup - (under various domain names including
> > catlover.com and catlovernospam.com) and you will get an idea of who
> > "cybercat" is. She has a long history in other groups that you can
> > find as well, without too much poking around. She's also currently
> > posting as Lumpy, pretending she is two people.
> >
> > -L.
>
> wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo!
>

:)

Phil P.
November 15th 05, 11:21 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> cybercat wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Point taken, Wendy. To clarify, I did not intend to imply that
> >> > rescuers like you who give your time and heart to TNR enjoy
> >> > having the cats' ears cut. I just wondered if there were a better
> >> > way. I do understand that you have to work with what you
> >> > have, and do what works. I just think it is a shame, not so
> >> > much from the point of view of aesthetics, but from the point
> >> > of view that cutting could be avoided.
> >>
> >> And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
> >> cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
> >> thousands of times, very close together.
> >
> >
> >
> > The punctures are made in rapid succession- like a sewing machine. The
> > individual punctures aren't felt. So "thousands of times" is merely
> > hyperbole. The cat would be anesthetized anyway, so its a moot point.
> >
> >
> >
> > The entire tattooed area
> >> bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
> >> there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
> >> an ear tip.
> >
> >
> > Naaa, tattooing would be done while the cat is still anesthetized from
> > neutering, and the post-op pain meds for neutering would also mitigate
any
> > post-op pain from tatooing-- unless you don't believe in post-op pain
> > management?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
> >> weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
> >> likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
> >> a large tattoo.
> >
> >
> > I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!
> >
> >
> >
> > If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> >> as repugnant.
> >
> > It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of
a
> > cat's ear.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> So your objection is an appearance thing?


No. What part of "I just don't like the idea of slicing off a piece of a
cat's ear" don't you understand? Let me know.

-L.
November 16th 05, 01:44 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > And you think your hypothetical large ear tattoo doesn't involve
> > cuttting? Let me clue you in: tattooing is done by puncturing the skin
> > thousands of times, very close together.
>
>
>
> The punctures are made in rapid succession- like a sewing machine. The
> individual punctures aren't felt.

Yes they are. I have a tattoo. It's the most painful procedure I have
ever willingly undergone.

So "thousands of times" is merely
> hyperbole. The cat would be anesthetized anyway, so its a moot point.

It's not a moot point after the cat wakes up - the area is sore and
bleeds just like a cut does, which was my point.

>
>
>
> The entire tattooed area
> > bleeds, fairly profusely. It is painful, especially so in areas where
> > there is little fat underneath the skin, such as would be the case with
> > an ear tip.
>
>
> Naaa, tattooing would be done while the cat is still anesthetized from
> neutering, and the post-op pain meds for neutering would also mitigate any
> post-op pain from tatooing-- unless you don't believe in post-op pain
> management?
>

Same goes for the ear slice - which is a cut which is what cyber****
was objecting to. I am merely stating that in terms of damaging the
skin there isn't much difference, if "cutting" is her objection.

>
>
>
> The area scabs over, itches like hell, and takes a few
> > weeks to heal completely. A sealed linear wound would be far more
> > likely to heal effectively than a wound with an open surface area like
> > a large tattoo.
>
>
> I'm talking about an "X"- not a portrait of Isis! LOL!

Still what - 1 inch by 3/4 inch or something? You have to have it big
enough to see at a distance. That's a relatively large tatoo on a cat.

>
>
>
> If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> > as repugnant.
>
> It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
> cat's ear.

Why? Asthetics? Seriously - in terms of damage to the cat, pain,
recovery and disfigurement, I can't see much difference.

-L.

-L.
November 16th 05, 01:46 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> > >
> > So your objection is an appearance thing?
>
>
> No. What part of "I just don't like the idea of slicing off a piece of a
> cat's ear" don't you understand? Let me know.

So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"?
<g,d,r>
-L.

whitershadeofpale
November 16th 05, 02:10 AM
-L. wrote:

> > It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of a
> > cat's ear.
>
> Why? Asthetics? Seriously - in terms of damage to the cat, pain,
> recovery and disfigurement, I can't see much difference.
>
> -L.

What about branding, like cattle.

I know, that still hurts, but, cows can take it! lol

Im going to shut up now.

Cheryl
November 16th 05, 02:15 AM
On Tue 15 Nov 2005 09:10:13p, whitershadeofpale wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
oups.com):

>
> -L. wrote:
>
>> > It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off
>> > the tip of a cat's ear.
>>
>> Why? Asthetics? Seriously - in terms of damage to the cat,
>> pain, recovery and disfigurement, I can't see much difference.
>>
>> -L.
>
> What about branding, like cattle.
>
> I know, that still hurts, but, cows can take it! lol
>
> Im going to shut up now.
>
>
Any idea is a good one. They're just concerned that cutting a part
off of the ear of a cat is disfiguring. I don't think anyone is
arguing that it isn't, though having one that has an ear tipped
doesn't make me cringe by her uglyness. The argument is that there
isn't a better way to observe that a feral cat has already been
vetted without having to trap it unneedlessly. I think most would
agree that the *un*vetted ones are more in need of being trapped.


--
Cheryl

whitershadeofpale
November 16th 05, 02:50 AM
Cheryl wrote:
> Any idea is a good one. They're just concerned that cutting a part
> off of the ear of a cat is disfiguring. I don't think anyone is
> arguing that it isn't, though having one that has an ear tipped
> doesn't make me cringe by her uglyness. The argument is that there
> isn't a better way to observe that a feral cat has already been
> vetted without having to trap it unneedlessly. I think most would
> agree that the *un*vetted ones are more in need of being trapped.
>
>
> --
> Cheryl

The whole pro-cess sounds tedious.
Especially trapping; it's not like you could put up a sign that says,
un-vetted ferals only.

If you put a collar on them, they outgrow the collar and choke.

I still think a small implanted chip could work.
When the feral comes near the trap, the chip sets off a small alarm,
this alarm frightens the feral away from the trap.

A simple handheld device could scan a cat from 5-8 yds away...
a green light on the handheld device would mean the feral has a chip
already.

With longer lasting micro chip batteries, the implanted chip would last
long enough
to serve it's purpose. (vet the whole colony)

The exponential of one female's off-spring is what, 6,000 cats?

Put X-Viagra into feral food. This keeps the male impotent.
This will help hold down the pregnacies,( a temporary measure) , till
the whole colony is vetted.

Phil P.
November 16th 05, 09:43 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > >
> > > So your objection is an appearance thing?
> >
> >
> > No. What part of "I just don't like the idea of slicing off a piece of
a
> > cat's ear" don't you understand? Let me know.
>
> So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"?
<g,d,r>

" Icky"? LOL! No, that's not it. I'm just not that lazy that I would slice
off a piece of a cat just to make my job a little easier. Trapping cats
seems to be much more difficult for you than it is for me. You seem to
dread trapping whereas I don't. So, I don't mind a little extra work if it
will avoid slicing off a piece of a cat's ear. Perhaps you're just not
suited for trapping- Its nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe you'd be more
proficient in a different area of animal welfare.

As I said, we just have different values and priorities. Remember, I said
its like rhythm. Either you have it or you don't.

What would you do if ear-tipping was illegal? Would you quit or would you
find another way to identify cats?

Phil P.
November 16th 05, 09:50 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:

>
> Yes they are. I have a tattoo. It's the most painful procedure I have
> ever willingly undergone.


You were awake when you were tattoed, weren't you? The cat would be
anesthesized. Duh!


<snipped>


> > If cutting is your objection, a tattoo has to be just
> > > as repugnant.
> >
> > It is! I just find tattooing less repugnant than slicing off the tip of
a
> > cat's ear.
>
> Why? Asthetics? Seriously - in terms of damage to the cat, pain,
> recovery and disfigurement, I can't see much difference.

I know you can't. We just have different values.

-L.
November 17th 05, 02:01 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> " Icky"? LOL! No, that's not it. I'm just not that lazy that I would slice
> off a piece of a cat just to make my job a little easier. Trapping cats
> seems to be much more difficult for you than it is for me. You seem to
> dread trapping whereas I don't.

I don't dread it. It's sort of like hunting for a good bargain. ;)

>So, I don't mind a little extra work if it
> will avoid slicing off a piece of a cat's ear.

You are also working established colonies - yes? Where you know the
cats and can spot a newbie right away. HUGE difference between that
and what I am doing. In the past I have helped out with established
colonies where the guardian didn't tip - she didn't need to as all cats
were named and she knew their history. That's not the situation I am
currently in.


>Perhaps you're just not
> suited for trapping- Its nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe you'd be more
> proficient in a different area of animal welfare.

See, Phil, here's where you get irritating. You make assumptions about
people when it isn't necessary. Has it ever occurred to you that
people like Wendy and I simply don't have the time to devote to
trapping that you do? Or, yes, *choose* not to have a lot of time to
devote to it - and *that's ok*? Hell, I don't begrudge the weekend
trapper - even if inexperienced - anything. If it is one person more
out there trying to stop the inflow of kittens to the shelters, I am
all for it, as long as they know what they are doing. Trapping is just
one thing I do as a service for people who need it in my area.


>
> As I said, we just have different values and priorities. Remember, I said
> its like rhythm. Either you have it or you don't.

Fine, whatever.

>
> What would you do if ear-tipping was illegal? Would you quit or would you
> find another way to identify cats?

I don't know. Right now I see tipping as so insignificant in the whole
process I really haven't given it much thought. I'd probably just trap
but if I kept trapping the same cats over and over, or kept catching
cats that were already neutered (remember - the only way I could tell
would be to take them in and have them checked by a vet) I'd probably
quit wasting my time and money. Again, I am usually trying to catch a
single cat, or a small colony (2 -3 cats). These are not cats I know,
and not cats in an established colony.

-L.

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 03:50 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > " Icky"? LOL! No, that's not it. I'm just not that lazy that I would
slice
> > off a piece of a cat just to make my job a little easier. Trapping cats
> > seems to be much more difficult for you than it is for me. You seem to
> > dread trapping whereas I don't.
>
> I don't dread it. It's sort of like hunting for a good bargain. ;)


Doesn't sound like it.


>
> >So, I don't mind a little extra work if it
> > will avoid slicing off a piece of a cat's ear.
>
> You are also working established colonies - yes?


Not always. I trap loners when necessary.



>
> >Perhaps you're just not
> > suited for trapping- Its nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe you'd be more
> > proficient in a different area of animal welfare.
>
> See, Phil, here's where you get irritating.


So did you. That's why I responded the way I did. I already explained my
reason for opposing ear-tipping, ad nauseam, and then you come out with the
stupid comment "So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"? WTF is
that? My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing off a
piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just don't think
its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for you?

The general attitude towards ferals seems to be that we can do anything we
want to them because otherwise they would be killed- as if they're
second-rate cats with no rights. If ear-tipping wasn't a second-rate
practice, why aren't pet cats tipped? Often its very difficult to
distinguish between a feral and a frightened stray/lost cat. Many
frightened stray/lost pet cats are too difficult to handle to be scanned
without sedation so they're classified as feral and killed immediately. I'm
sure you've heard of chipped pet cats being mistaken for ferals and killed.
I've often thought of having my cats's ears tattooed with the word
"microchip" so some ACO or shelter personnel would know to scan them.

Are we finally clear on this or do you want to go around in circles for
another 100 posts?

cybercat
November 17th 05, 03:57 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> See, Phil, here's where you get irritating. You make assumptions about
> people when it isn't necessary. Has it ever occurred to you that
> people like Wendy and I simply don't have the time to devote to
> trapping that you do? Or, yes, *choose* not to have a lot of time to
> devote to it - and *that's ok*? Hell, I don't begrudge the weekend
> trapper - even if inexperienced - anything. If it is one person more
> out there trying to stop the inflow of kittens to the shelters, I am
> all for it, as long as they know what they are doing. Trapping is just
> one thing I do as a service for people who need it in my area.
>

Maybe this is the problem. Why not leave it to those who have more
time, presence of mind, and compassion for animals they are not
necessarilypersonally attached to? Those who have the character/mindset
to see the feral cats as more than just objects to control?

It is your lack of compassion for the animals themselves that is
disturbing. The same callous core that enables you to recommend
returning cats to kill shelters for simple behavior problems makes
you incapable of caring whether you achieve an objective with or
without cutting off part of the body of the cat. For you these animals
are objectified--unlike your own animals, whom I suspect you would
never agree to mutilate.

Better you do something else than do TNR the way you do.

-L.
November 17th 05, 06:17 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> So did you. That's why I responded the way I did. I already explained my
> reason for opposing ear-tipping, ad nauseam, and then you come out with the
> stupid comment "So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"? WTF is
> that?

I was teasing you, dear. Simmer down.

> My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
> though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing off a
> piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just don't think
> its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for you?

For you it is a moral issue. To me, it's a necessity. The two shall
never meet.

>
> The general attitude towards ferals seems to be that we can do anything we
> want to them because otherwise they would be killed- as if they're
> second-rate cats with no rights. If ear-tipping wasn't a second-rate
> practice, why aren't pet cats tipped?

The vast majority of pet cats aren't likely to be trapped since they
don't live in the wild. Yes, some escape and revert to feral, but
that's a minority. There's no need to tip "owned" cats.

I don't get all gushy and romatic about feral cats. Sorry. They're
wild animals. If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it as
binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.

I suspect you feel differently and hey - there is room for both
viewpoints AFAIC. That's what makes life rich.

> Often its very difficult to
> distinguish between a feral and a frightened stray/lost cat.

Agreed.

> Many
> frightened stray/lost pet cats are too difficult to handle to be scanned
> without sedation so they're classified as feral and killed immediately. I'm
> sure you've heard of chipped pet cats being mistaken for ferals and killed.
> I've often thought of having my cats's ears tattooed with the word
> "microchip" so some ACO or shelter personnel would know to scan them.

You're making a good argument for tipping all spayed or neutered cats.
But tipping doesn't solve the problem of identification. I have also
thought about this long and hard because I have a cat that I *know*, if
he were to get loose, would be labeled a feral at any shelter simply
because he's not a good patient. He's chipped, but that might not
matter. One exception is that he looks like a well-cared for pet, so
that might save him. I honestly don't know what the answer is.
Collars are dangerous, IMO, and especially dangerous for this cat,
based on his history.

>
> Are we finally clear on this or do you want to go around in circles for
> another 100 posts?

It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)

-L.

-L.
November 17th 05, 07:05 AM
cybercat wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> >
> > See, Phil, here's where you get irritating. You make assumptions about
> > people when it isn't necessary. Has it ever occurred to you that
> > people like Wendy and I simply don't have the time to devote to
> > trapping that you do? Or, yes, *choose* not to have a lot of time to
> > devote to it - and *that's ok*? Hell, I don't begrudge the weekend
> > trapper - even if inexperienced - anything. If it is one person more
> > out there trying to stop the inflow of kittens to the shelters, I am
> > all for it, as long as they know what they are doing. Trapping is just
> > one thing I do as a service for people who need it in my area.
> >
>
> Maybe this is the problem

It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US. :

http://www.feralcat.com/nfvtfc.html
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/eartipping.html
http://www.saveacat.org/acr_articles/eartipping.htm
http://www.lsar.org/feral_cats.htm
http://www.feralcatfocus.com/Feral_FAQs/feral_faqs.html
http://www.catsunlimited.org/feralcats.htm
http://www.kittico.org/faqs.html#eartipping
http://www.stanford.edu/group/CATNET/articles/model_program.html

I could post about a dozen or so more, but why bother - you undoubtedly
won't read them anyway. Oh, and, psst: Here's a clue: Why don't you
quit worrying your pretty little head about something you so obviously
know nothing about.

As for your frothing diatribe, to quote you: "...this is a discussion
group, so why can't you...stick to the point and just *discuss the
topic at hand* instead of going
rabid and personal on people who are *doing just that.*

and... "You...turn everything into some
emotion-charged Big Deal. It is entirely unnecessary and gets
in the way of good discussions."

I am going off now to check my trap. It's raining and cold, and I want
to catch the little grey Ghost before it freezes here.

HTH and HAND!

-L.

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 08:05 AM
-L. wrote:

> I am going off now to check my trap. It's raining and cold, and I want
> to catch the little grey Ghost before it freezes here.

I'm sure you're back back now...
didja git em?

what are you using for bait (regular food?)


> HTH and HAND!
> -L.

-L.
November 17th 05, 08:41 AM
whitershadeofpale wrote:
> -L. wrote:
>
> > I am going off now to check my trap. It's raining and cold, and I want
> > to catch the little grey Ghost before it freezes here.
>
> I'm sure you're back back now...
> didja git em?

Nope. I will check again at 2:30 and a friend of mine is checking at
5:00.

>
> what are you using for bait (regular food?)

Sardines. I didn't feed her last night, and tonight baited with
sardines. We moved the trap a couple days ago, and she's been seen
around the yard.

-L.

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 09:14 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > So did you. That's why I responded the way I did. I already explained
my
> > reason for opposing ear-tipping, ad nauseam, and then you come out with
the
> > stupid comment "So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"? WTF is
> > that?
>
> I was teasing you, dear. Simmer down.


I don't think its a joking matter. It was a silly remark.


>
> > My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
> > though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing off a
> > piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just don't
think
> > its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for you?
>
> For you it is a moral issue. To me, it's a necessity. The two shall
> never meet.


I stated my reason several times and you stated yours. I thought we agreed
to disagree. So why did you rekindle the argument with your silly remark?


>
> >
> > The general attitude towards ferals seems to be that we can do anything
we
> > want to them because otherwise they would be killed- as if they're
> > second-rate cats with no rights. If ear-tipping wasn't a second-rate
> > practice, why aren't pet cats tipped?
>
> The vast majority of pet cats aren't likely to be trapped since they
> don't live in the wild.


90% of the cats that pass through shelters are lost or stray pet cats. Many
of them were trapped or caught or do you think they check into shelters for
a vacation?



Yes, some escape and revert to feral, but
> that's a minority. There's no need to tip "owned" cats.


I wasn't referring to pets and strays that escaped and reverted to feral. I
was referring to pet cats that escaped or wandered off.


>
> I don't get all gushy and romatic about feral cats. Sorry.


I see that. Its interesting that you consider respect and compassion for an
animal "gushy and romantic". Your attitude is remarkably similar to the
calloused gas chamber operators in kill-shelters. If I ever reach that
stage, I'd quit.


They're
> wild animals.


So?



If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it as
> binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
>
> I suspect you feel differently


Of course you're wrong. I view my cats as individuals and companions under
my protection and care.



>
> > Often its very difficult to
> > distinguish between a feral and a frightened stray/lost cat.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > Many
> > frightened stray/lost pet cats are too difficult to handle to be scanned
> > without sedation so they're classified as feral and killed immediately.
I'm
> > sure you've heard of chipped pet cats being mistaken for ferals and
killed.
> > I've often thought of having my cats's ears tattooed with the word
> > "microchip" so some ACO or shelter personnel would know to scan them.
>
> You're making a good argument for tipping all spayed or neutered cats.


I thought it was a better argument for tattooing since we can't depend on
shelters and ACOs to scan every animal they come in contact with. A tattoo
is *clearly* visible at close range (i.e., trap or cage) and would alert the
ACO that the animal is microchipped. The same policy could be applied to
ferals, but most caretakers wouldn't/couldn't spring for the chips.



> But tipping doesn't solve the problem of identification.


A tattoo indicating the cat was microchipped, would.


I have also
> thought about this long and hard because I have a cat that I *know*, if
> he were to get loose, would be labeled a feral at any shelter simply
> because he's not a good patient. He's chipped, but that might not
> matter.

A tattoo indicating he was microchipped, would.



One exception is that he looks like a well-cared for pet, so
> that might save him. I honestly don't know what the answer is.
> Collars are dangerous, IMO, and especially dangerous for this cat,
> based on his history.


Agreed. Even the breakaways don't always break away. I think microchips
*and* an ear tattoo is the solution- especially for pet cats.


>
> >
> > Are we finally clear on this or do you want to go around in circles for
> > another 100 posts?
>
> It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)


Yeah it was even though your remark was irritating. ;)

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 09:18 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.

I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just don't want
to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be done about it.

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 09:19 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> > It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)
>
>
> Yeah it was even though your remark was irritating. ;)

I think you two should get a room

-L.
November 17th 05, 10:07 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> > I was teasing you, dear. Simmer down.
>
>
> I don't think its a joking matter. It was a silly remark.
>
>
> >
> > > My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
> > > though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing off a
> > > piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just don't
> think
> > > its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for you?
> >
> > For you it is a moral issue. To me, it's a necessity. The two shall
> > never meet.
>
>
> I stated my reason several times and you stated yours. I thought we agreed
> to disagree. So why did you rekindle the argument with your silly remark?


I WAS KIDDING, Phil. I even put in a "<g,d,r>". I thought you would
realize that.


> > >
> > > The general attitude towards ferals seems to be that we can do anything
> we
> > > want to them because otherwise they would be killed- as if they're
> > > second-rate cats with no rights. If ear-tipping wasn't a second-rate
> > > practice, why aren't pet cats tipped?
> >
> > The vast majority of pet cats aren't likely to be trapped since they
> > don't live in the wild.
>
>
> 90% of the cats that pass through shelters are lost or stray pet cats.

Most are either pets willingly surrendered, or surrendered as strays.
Very few are trapped.

>Many
> of them were trapped or caught or do you think they check into shelters for
> a vacation?

Most "strays" I have seen surrendered are brought in by good
samaritans. Very few people in the general public trap, IME. Traps
are too expensive and not many places/orgs will lend them.

<snip>

> > I don't get all gushy and romatic about feral cats. Sorry.
>
>
> I see that. Its interesting that you consider respect and compassion

I don't see anything about tipping as lacking respect or compassion.
It serves an important purpose to the cat population, in general.

> for an
> animal "gushy and romantic". Your attitude is remarkably similar to the
> calloused gas chamber operators in kill-shelters. If I ever reach that
> stage, I'd quit.
>

I see concern over aesthetics "gushy and romantic". I haven't seen any
argument against tipping other than you "don't like" the ear tip
removed (you find it morally irreprehensible) and it is disfiguring.
Sorry, those reasons to me are "gushy and romantic" when it comes to a
wild animal that is undergoing a procedure that might eventually save
its live, and makes it easier for more animals to be served in the TNR
system. I am not going to cry over a missing ear tip when that ear tip
might keep the cat from being euthanized. I will save my tears for the
animals on the dead pile who never had a chance.

And, again, we are rehashing old arguments - it's not going anywhere.

>
> They're
> > wild animals.
>
> So?
>

I don't see it as any different than tagging snakes, or lions, or
banding birds, or whatever, in populations studies or environmental
impact studies. It serves a purpose in that it is done for the greater
good of the population, in general. I get the feeling that people who
bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than that).
The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.

>
>
> If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it as
> > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
> >
> > I suspect you feel differently
>
>
> Of course you're wrong.

So you don't feel differently? You see companion animals as being
bound in servitude as well?

> I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> my protection and care.

They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.

<snip>

> Agreed. Even the breakaways don't always break away. I think microchips
> *and* an ear tattoo is the solution- especially for pet cats.
>

I will think about that some more. One concern I have is that people
won't know to look for the ear tattoo, unless it was blatantly obvious.


> > > Are we finally clear on this or do you want to go around in circles for
> > > another 100 posts?
> >
> > It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)
>
>
> Yeah it was even though your remark was irritating. ;)

LOL...have a good day, Phil. I'm gonna go check my trap again and get
to bed...
-L.

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 10:36 AM
-L. wrote:
> They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.

Made them dependant on us...
You mean by paving paradise and putting up a parking lot?

I think the whole thing was mutual...

They didn't ask to be born no more than we did
The first person who fed a cat...did wrong?

Of course not, the cat was out looking for food, when a child
gave the cat some of it's tortillia. The cat liked it, found the
hunting easier
and being smart like they are...they hung around.

It was mutual.

cybercat
November 17th 05, 04:51 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> > also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
>
> I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just don't
want
> to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be done about it.
>

I think this is probably true. In any case, you both agreed to disagree, so
I have to wonder why Lyn continues to make the same argument. Particularly
when it just underscores her own callousness.

cybercat
November 17th 05, 05:02 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > See, Phil, here's where you get irritating. You make assumptions
about
> > > people when it isn't necessary. Has it ever occurred to you that
> > > people like Wendy and I simply don't have the time to devote to
> > > trapping that you do? Or, yes, *choose* not to have a lot of time to
> > > devote to it - and *that's ok*? Hell, I don't begrudge the weekend
> > > trapper - even if inexperienced - anything. If it is one person more
> > > out there trying to stop the inflow of kittens to the shelters, I am
> > > all for it, as long as they know what they are doing. Trapping is
just
> > > one thing I do as a service for people who need it in my area.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe this is the problem
>
> It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US. :
>
> http://www.feralcat.com/nfvtfc.html
> http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/eartipping.html
> http://www.saveacat.org/acr_articles/eartipping.htm
> http://www.lsar.org/feral_cats.htm
> http://www.feralcatfocus.com/Feral_FAQs/feral_faqs.html
> http://www.catsunlimited.org/feralcats.htm
> http://www.kittico.org/faqs.html#eartipping
> http://www.stanford.edu/group/CATNET/articles/model_program.html
>
> I could post about a dozen or so more, but why bother - you undoubtedly
> won't read them anyway. Oh, and, psst: Here's a clue: Why don't you
> quit worrying your pretty little head about something you so obviously
> know nothing about.
>
> As for your frothing diatribe, to quote you: "...this is a discussion
> group, so why can't you...stick to the point and just *discuss the
> topic at hand* instead of going
> rabid and personal on people who are *doing just that.*

Commenting on the callousness you display toward cats is not at
all "going personal." It is an observation, formed from your comments

You continue to make the same circular arguments because you
are uncomfortable with the picture of you that has emerged from
your position.

Be as you must be, but learn to face it. You are callous toward all
cats but your own.

cybercat
November 17th 05, 05:10 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > So did you. That's why I responded the way I did. I already explained
> my
> > > reason for opposing ear-tipping, ad nauseam, and then you come out
with
> the
> > > stupid comment "So, you just don't like it because it's "icky"? WTF
is
> > > that?
> >
> > I was teasing you, dear. Simmer down.
>
>
> I don't think its a joking matter. It was a silly remark.
>
>
> >
> > > My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
> > > though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing off
a
> > > piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just don't
> think
> > > its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for you?
> >
> > For you it is a moral issue. To me, it's a necessity. The two shall
> > never meet.
>
>
> I stated my reason several times and you stated yours. I thought we agreed
> to disagree. So why did you rekindle the argument with your silly remark?
>

Because Lyn is the kind of stupid that expects to wear her callousness
like a badge of honor without anyone thinking she is callous.

cybercat
November 17th 05, 05:12 PM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > > It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)
> >
> >
> > Yeah it was even though your remark was irritating. ;)
>
> I think you two should get a room
>

I don't think Phil would want to do that many rounds of
antibiotics even if he could get past her personality.

Lumpy
November 17th 05, 05:25 PM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> -L. wrote:
> > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
>
> Made them dependant on us...
> You mean by paving paradise and putting up a parking lot?
>
> I think the whole thing was mutual...
>
> They didn't ask to be born no more than we did
> The first person who fed a cat...did wrong?
>
> Of course not, the cat was out looking for food, when a child
> gave the cat some of it's tortillia. The cat liked it, found the
> hunting easier
> and being smart like they are...they hung around.
>
> It was mutual.
>

1. Egyptians did not have tortillas
2. irreprehensible is not a word

-L.
November 17th 05, 05:29 PM
cybercat wrote:
> Because Lyn is the kind of stupid that expects to wear her callousness
> like a badge of honor without anyone thinking she is callous.

Do you really think I give a flying **** that YOU think I'm callous?
You, the one who cannot even handle a *****ing flame war* without
whining and crying and LYING to the cops? Please. Go back to the
****ing sand box.

-L.

-L.
November 17th 05, 05:32 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> > also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
>
> I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just don't want
> to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be done about it.

Yeah. That's akin to "lurkers support me in email".
-L.

-L.
November 17th 05, 05:37 PM
whitershadeofpale wrote:
> -L. wrote:
> > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
>
> Made them dependant on us...
> You mean by paving paradise and putting up a parking lot?
>
> I think the whole thing was mutual...
>
> They didn't ask to be born no more than we did
> The first person who fed a cat...did wrong?

Yes. We domesticated them to serve our own selfish needs.

>
> Of course not, the cat was out looking for food, when a child
> gave the cat some of it's tortillia. The cat liked it, found the
> hunting easier
> and being smart like they are...they hung around.
>
> It was mutual.

Go ahead and tell yourself that if it make you feel better, hon.

****. Now that I know you're a young'n I am going to have to resist
the urge to mother you...
-L.

Lumpy
November 17th 05, 05:37 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> > > also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
> >
> > I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just don't
want
> > to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be done about it.
>
> Yeah. That's akin to "lurkers support me in email".
> -L.
>

Except that Phil is right.

cybercat
November 17th 05, 05:40 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> > Because Lyn is the kind of stupid that expects to wear her callousness
> > like a badge of honor without anyone thinking she is callous.
>
> Do you really think I give a flying **** that YOU think I'm callous?
> You, the one who cannot even handle a *****ing flame war* without
> whining and crying and LYING to the cops? Please. Go back to the
> ****ing sand box.
>

Your psychotic illusions aside, it is not that I "think" you are callous
and uncaring toward the ferals cats you claim to want to help. It is
what you yourself have displayed here. If you don't like the portrait
that has emerged, look to the source--your own character.

Of course it is easier to "shoot the messenger."

-L.
November 17th 05, 06:02 PM
Lumpy wrote:
>
> Except that Phil is right.

Honey, you and your multiple personalities don't count.
-L
<snickering...>

cybercat
November 17th 05, 06:13 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Lumpy wrote:
> >
> > Except that Phil is right.
>
> Honey, you and your multiple personalities don't count.
> -L
> <snickering...>
>

Actually, Me and my numerous nyms aside, your comment does
not follow. I have spoken out openly, whereas the comment here
referred to people who are bothered by the common practice of
cutting off part of the cats' ears but have not spoken out. Try
to keep up.

No More Retail
November 17th 05, 06:32 PM
Sssssssssh I can hear some voice right now ;-)

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 07:19 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > I was teasing you, dear. Simmer down.
> >
> >
> > I don't think its a joking matter. It was a silly remark.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > My reason has nothing to do with "icky" or the surgery itself. I
> > > > though I made that clear. I said I don't like the idea of slicing
off a
> > > > piece of a cat's ear just to make my job easier. I said I just
don't
> > think
> > > > its the right thing to do to a cat. Wasn't that clear enough for
you?
> > >
> > > For you it is a moral issue. To me, it's a necessity. The two shall
> > > never meet.
> >
> >
> > I stated my reason several times and you stated yours. I thought we
agreed
> > to disagree. So why did you rekindle the argument with your silly
remark?
>
>
> I WAS KIDDING, Phil. I even put in a "<g,d,r>". I thought you would
> realize that.


I have a pretty good sense of humor. But I don't think this a joking matter.


>
>
> > > >
> > > > The general attitude towards ferals seems to be that we can do
anything
> > we
> > > > want to them because otherwise they would be killed- as if they're
> > > > second-rate cats with no rights. If ear-tipping wasn't a
second-rate
> > > > practice, why aren't pet cats tipped?
> > >
> > > The vast majority of pet cats aren't likely to be trapped since they
> > > don't live in the wild.
> >
> >
> > 90% of the cats that pass through shelters are lost or stray pet cats.
>
> Most are either pets willingly surrendered, or surrendered as strays.
> Very few are trapped.



You're making a generalization which is merely your opinion. However, I can
say, with absolute certainty, that live-traps are almost always booked solid
for weeks to months in advance in the municipal kill-shelters of at least 4
surrounding counties in my area. That suggests that many more than "very
few" stray/pet cats are trapped.



>
> >Many
> > of them were trapped or caught or do you think they check into shelters
for
> > a vacation?
>
> Most "strays" I have seen surrendered are brought in by good
> samaritans. Very few people in the general public trap, IME. Traps
> are too expensive and not many places/orgs will lend them.


More people catch or trap stray/wandering "trespassing" pets with
drop-traps- they're free and selective and don't require any instruction or
deposit. FYI, drop-traps are often the solution for trapping trap-wise
cats. Drop-traps are also selective- which means you can trap only the cat
you want.


>
> <snip>
>
> > > I don't get all gushy and romatic about feral cats. Sorry.
> >
> >
> > I see that. Its interesting that you consider respect and compassion
>
> I don't see anything about tipping as lacking respect or compassion.


I know. That's what's so disturbing about you.


> It serves an important purpose to the cat population, in general.


Here we go again. No, it doesn't. It simply makes trappers' job easier. In
fact, in some cases eartipping is detrimental because it identifies the cat
as feral-- which many ACs will trap and immediately kill- neutered/managed
or not.


>
> > for an
> > animal "gushy and romantic". Your attitude is remarkably similar to
the
> > calloused gas chamber operators in kill-shelters. If I ever reach that
> > stage, I'd quit.
> >
>
> I see concern over aesthetics "gushy and romantic".


My concern is not about aesthetics- I made that abundantly clear, ad
nauseam.



I haven't seen any
> argument against tipping other than you "don't like" the ear tip
> removed (you find it morally irreprehensible) and it is disfiguring.


I find it what??

Many people don't like the idea but they're forced to accept it because its
the *easiest* and most *convenient* way to identify a feral. I think- in
fact I'm certain- more people are more comfortable with tattooing than
slicing off a piece of the cat's ear.



> Sorry, those reasons to me are "gushy and romantic" when it comes to a
> wild animal that is undergoing a procedure that might eventually save
> its live,

A tattoo would save the animals' lives, too. That part of your argument is
without merit- and you know it.



and makes it easier for more animals to be served in the TNR
> system. I am not going to cry over a missing ear tip when that ear tip
> might keep the cat from being euthanized.


Again, a tattoo would serve the same purpose. You've already agreed on that
point.



I will save my tears for the
> animals on the dead pile who never had a chance.
>
> And, again, we are rehashing old arguments - it's not going anywhere.


Sure we are! We going *backwards* since you're arguing about issues that
you previously agreed with!


>
> >
> > They're
> > > wild animals.
> >
> > So?
> >
>
> I don't see it as any different than tagging snakes, or lions, or
> banding birds, or whatever, in populations studies or environmental
> impact studies. It serves a purpose in that it is done for the greater
> good of the population, in general.


You don't see FSL or the big cats ear-tipped for all those National
Geographic wildlife studies, do you? Btw, do you know what that little
white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you normally not
that observant or curious?



I get the feeling that people who
> bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
> their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than that).
> The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.


IOW, you're saying feral cats are not entitled to any respect, and "helping"
them give us the right to do whatever we please to them- and they should be
grateful to us for not killing them.



> > If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it as
> > > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
> > >
> > > I suspect you feel differently
> >
> >
> > Of course you're wrong.


> So you don't feel differently?


Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats a "bound in servitude"
I see *me* as bound in servitude!



You see companion animals as being
> bound in servitude as well?



I see you have a thorough understanding of cats. They are superbly obedient
servants, aren't they? They obey our every command instantly without
hesitation. That's ridiculous! You've got to be kidding! Of course I
*don't*! I see my relationship with cats as a mutualistic relationship -
kind of a symbiosis in which *both* of us benefit from being together. My
cats receive shelter, food, medical care, affection, protection and
companionship- since cats treat their humans as a member of their social
group or even surrogate mothers- and in return I receive the joy of their
company and companionship. *Both* of our lives are *improved* by our
relationship. That's *mutualism* not servitude. Even working cats have a
mutualistic relationship with their owners. In exchange for rodent control,
they receive shelter and medical care. The only member of our relationship
with cats that are "bound in servitude" is *US*! ...and most of us love
it!

You have a strange way of defining your relationship with your cats- I'll
say that for you! We certainly are on different wavelengths. Its very easy
to see why we disagree about ear-tipping-- and probably many other issues
pertaining to cats as well.



>
> > I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> > my protection and care.
>
> They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.

You think its what?

I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't know, it
was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially became
commensal, and then they started the process of domestication *themselves*.
You have a lot to learn about cats-



>
> <snip>
>
> > Agreed. Even the breakaways don't always break away. I think
microchips
> > *and* an ear tattoo is the solution- especially for pet cats.
> >
>
> I will think about that some more. One concern I have is that people
> won't know to look for the ear tattoo, unless it was blatantly obvious.


If they look at the cat's face- I don't see how they could miss it.
Tattooing just needs to be publicized more so people will know what they
mean and will look for them.



> > > > Are we finally clear on this or do you want to go around in circles
for
> > > > another 100 posts?
> > >
> > > It's been a good discussion, Phil. Despite the minor irritation. ;)
> >
> >
> > Yeah it was even though your remark was irritating. ;)
>
> LOL...have a good day, Phil. I'm gonna go check my trap again and get
> to bed...
> -L.


You left a trap unattended???

I hope you caught him.

Phil

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 07:20 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently. It's
> > > also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
> >
> > I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just don't
want
> > to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be done about it.
>
> Yeah. That's akin to "lurkers support me in email".
> -L.
>


No, I don't think so. Because slicing off a piece of a cat's ear doesn't
bother you, don't assume everyone is as insensitive and callous about it.
Even the groups I know who ear-tip aren't happy about it. Several people in
this group have already voiced their discomfort with the practice.

Lumpy
November 17th 05, 07:32 PM
"Phil P." > wrote


> I get the feeling that people who
> > bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
> > their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than that).
> > The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.
>
>
> IOW, you're saying feral cats are not entitled to any respect, and
"helping"
> them give us the right to do whatever we please to them- and they should
be
> grateful to us for not killing them.
>

This is *precisely* it, Phil. Good work pinning her down on it.



>
> > > If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > > > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it
as
> > > > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect you feel differently
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course you're wrong.
>
>
> > So you don't feel differently?
>
>
> Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats a "bound in servitude"
> I see *me* as bound in servitude!

:) And here is yet another great point. Lyn is forever overestimating
AND overstating her own power--because she needs to.
>
>
> You see companion animals as being
> > bound in servitude as well?
>
>
>
> I see you have a thorough understanding of cats. They are superbly
obedient
> servants, aren't they? They obey our every command instantly without
> hesitation. That's ridiculous! You've got to be kidding! Of course I
> *don't*! I see my relationship with cats as a mutualistic relationship -
> kind of a symbiosis in which *both* of us benefit from being together. My
> cats receive shelter, food, medical care, affection, protection and
> companionship- since cats treat their humans as a member of their social
> group or even surrogate mothers- and in return I receive the joy of their
> company and companionship. *Both* of our lives are *improved* by our
> relationship. That's *mutualism* not servitude. Even working cats have a
> mutualistic relationship with their owners. In exchange for rodent
control,
> they receive shelter and medical care. The only member of our
relationship
> with cats that are "bound in servitude" is *US*! ...and most of us love
> it!
>
> You have a strange way of defining your relationship with your cats- I'll
> say that for you! We certainly are on different wavelengths. Its very
easy
> to see why we disagree about ear-tipping-- and probably many other issues
> pertaining to cats as well.
>

I would say so.


>
> >
> > > I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> > > my protection and care.
> >
> > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
>
> You think its what?

That's right, it's not a word! We do have an Irregardless Cafe here
in Raleigh. lol

>
> I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't know,
it
> was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially became
> commensal, and then they started the process of domestication
*themselves*.
> You have a lot to learn about cats-
>
I believe it was in the area now known as Egypt, as far as they know.
And it was a really smart thing for cats living in the desert to do.

5cats
November 17th 05, 08:01 PM
-L. wrote:

>
> Phil P. wrote:
>> "-L." > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently.
>> > It's also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
>>
>> I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just
>> don't want to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be
>> done about it.
>
> Yeah. That's akin to "lurkers support me in email".
> -L.
>

He's right, it IS disturbing. The thing is, I don't have a better
alternative to offer. Tatoos are only slightly better. We really need a
radio chip that can be sensed from a distance. The technology has to be
there by now, someday maybe the cost can brought down to something
manageable.

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 09:53 PM
5cats wrote:

> He's right, it IS disturbing. The thing is, I don't have a better
> alternative to offer. Tatoos are only slightly better. We really need a
> radio chip that can be sensed from a distance. The technology has to be
> there by now, someday maybe the cost can brought down to something
> manageable.

here's another idea, short of yours.

Say you catch a male, and vet him...
after he is caught, you make it a point to keep a certain smell around
him.
Something natural but distinguished..like patchouli oil, or
something...

then you keep that smell on the trap...

the next time he comes near the trap, he will associate that smell with
being caught and having his nuts cut out...he will not go in the trap.

this is to keep from ruining a perfectly good trap for the night.
I bet you wouldn't get one repeat offender!

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 09:56 PM
-L. wrote:
> whitershadeofpale wrote:
> >
> > oh and uh
> >
> > maddam butterfly she's loves me to sleep
> >
> > (at least I imagine it)
>
> You know Madam Butterfly was a dude, don't you?
>
> -L.

nuh ungh! not all of em! :)

whitershadeofpale
November 17th 05, 09:58 PM
whitershadeofpale wrote:

> nuh ungh! not all of em! :)

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-45,GGLG:en&q=Madam+Butterfly

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 10:35 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote

> > I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't
know,
> it
> > was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially
became
> > commensal, and then they started the process of domestication
> *themselves*.
> > You have a lot to learn about cats-
> >
> I believe it was in the area now known as Egypt, as far as they know.
> And it was a really smart thing for cats living in the desert to do.

You're not kidding- The early cats figured, why the hell should they go out
and hunt for food during a sand storm when the mice will come to them in the
granaries. That's even better than take out- its home delivery! LOL!

Phil P.
November 17th 05, 10:37 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> -L. wrote:
>
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> >> "-L." > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> >
> >> > It's not a problem for anyone here but you and Phil, apparently.
> >> > It's also not a problem for every major TNR group in the US.
> >>
> >> I'm sure eartipping is disturbing to *many* more people who just
> >> don't want to get into an argument since they feel nothing can be
> >> done about it.
> >
> > Yeah. That's akin to "lurkers support me in email".
> > -L.
> >
>
> He's right, it IS disturbing. The thing is, I don't have a better
> alternative to offer. Tatoos are only slightly better. We really need a
> radio chip that can be sensed from a distance. The technology has to be
> there by now, someday maybe the cost can brought down to something
> manageable.


It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip and
TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly fill.
And the cycle begins again.

November 17th 05, 11:25 PM
"Phil P." > wrote:

>
>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip and
>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly fill.
>And the cycle begins again.
>

From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.

-mhd

whitershadeofpale
November 18th 05, 03:04 AM
PawsForThought wrote:
....
> turtle and a cat.>>

Thank you PawsForThought, that was very thought envoking!

I don't see the big scramble here...

I mean, a feral gets captured, has his family jewels cut
out..off...whichever...

so an ear nip is mild compared to what just happened back at the vets.

No More Retail
November 18th 05, 03:08 AM
You young ones are always thinking with and about the wrong head :-) <sssh
the voices >

whitershadeofpale
November 18th 05, 03:11 AM
No More Retail wrote:
> You young ones are always thinking with and about the wrong head :-) <sssh
> the voices >

So...

you still up for turning Phil over your knee and spanking him?

rtflmao

No More Retail
November 18th 05, 03:22 AM
only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)

whitershadeofpale
November 18th 05, 03:28 AM
No More Retail wrote:
> only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)

**** That!

-L.
November 18th 05, 05:20 AM
Diane wrote:
> In article >, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
> > I have spoken out openly, whereas the comment here
> > referred to people who are bothered by the common practice of
> > cutting off part of the cats' ears but have not spoken out.
>
> Well, I think I said something. I'm just not sure why anyone would be
> against finding and using a feasible alternative.

Nobody is. But a "feasible alternative" hasn't been found yet by the
hundreds of feral rescue organizations that do this. It's easy to sit
back as an uneducated lump (no pun intended) and squawk like an old
boor about how those horrible, mean feral rescuers lop of the kitty's
ear when you have no idea how rescue is done or why.

-L.

Lumpy
November 18th 05, 06:41 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Diane wrote:
> > In article >, "cybercat" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have spoken out openly, whereas the comment here
> > > referred to people who are bothered by the common practice of
> > > cutting off part of the cats' ears but have not spoken out.
> >
> > Well, I think I said something. I'm just not sure why anyone would be
> > against finding and using a feasible alternative.
>
> Nobody is. But a "feasible alternative" hasn't been found yet by the
> hundreds of feral rescue organizations that do this. It's easy to sit
> back as an uneducated lump (no pun intended) and squawk like an old
> boor about how those horrible, mean feral rescuers lop of the kitty's
> ear when you have no idea how rescue is done or why.

And yet Phil, who has forgotten more than you have ever known about
rescue, agrees with me. :)

Lumpy
November 18th 05, 07:02 AM
"No More Retail" > wrote in message
.. .
> only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)
>
>

Is this going to be on Pay-per-view?

-L.
November 18th 05, 08:07 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> No, I don't think so. Because slicing off a piece of a cat's ear doesn't
> bother you, don't assume everyone is as insensitive and callous about it.

It has nothing to do with being "insensitive and callous". It has
everything to do with being practical. I have said multiple times that
if there were better ways to do it, I'd be all for it.

> Even the groups I know who ear-tip aren't happy about it. Several people in
> this group have already voiced their discomfort with the practice.

As have I, if you read what I actually wrote. The point is, to use "a
lot of people feel the way I do" is a moot point. Sure, a lot of
people feel the way you do. But a lot of people also see the necessity
of the practice, as I do. This is not a ****ing contest where someone
wins, despite what you and your idiot "me too" SlurpyGrrl think.

-L.

-L.
November 18th 05, 08:09 AM
cybercat wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > cybercat wrote:
> > > Because Lyn is the kind of stupid that expects to wear her callousness
> > > like a badge of honor without anyone thinking she is callous.
> >
> > Do you really think I give a flying **** that YOU think I'm callous?
> > You, the one who cannot even handle a *****ing flame war* without
> > whining and crying and LYING to the cops? Please. Go back to the
> > ****ing sand box.
> >
>
> Your psychotic illusions aside,

Now you are denying you called the cops? Sweeet. Just what we'd
expect from a pathological liar. That's ok. I have your IP addresses.

-L.

-L.
November 18th 05, 09:17 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> You're making a generalization which is merely your opinion.

As were you with your 90% statistic...or do you have data for evey
shelter in the US? If so, I'd like to see it posted.

> However, I can
> say, with absolute certainty, that live-traps are almost always booked solid
> for weeks to months in advance in the municipal kill-shelters of at least 4
> surrounding counties in my area. That suggests that many more than "very
> few" stray/pet cats are trapped.

That's great. Not all shelters have traps they lend. In fact, in
three different states where I tried to get traps on loan from the
shelters (IN, NC and CA), they didn't loan them. That's why I ended
up buying my own, eventually. What happens in one part of the country
isn't necessarily indicative of what is happeneing in other parts of
the country.


<snip>

> > > I see that. Its interesting that you consider respect and compassion
> >
> > I don't see anything about tipping as lacking respect or compassion.
>
>
> I know. That's what's so disturbing about you.
>

Whatever, Phil. Be disturbed all you want. Make up scenarios all you
want. Go ahead - no skin off my nose. Doesn't change the fact that
tipping serves a valuable purpose in helping to manage the cat overpop
problem.

>
> > It serves an important purpose to the cat population, in general.
>
>
> Here we go again. No, it doesn't.

Saving a cat's life because it is tipped doesn't serve the general cat
population in your book? (Remember, we haven't proven the ear tattoo
theory). Being able to TNR more cats because of tipping isn't valuable
to you? Fine. I could now call you uncaring and melodramatic. But
being so derisive doesn't really serve any purpose for the sake of the
argument, does it?

> It simply makes trappers' job easier. In
> fact, in some cases eartipping is detrimental because it identifies the cat
> as feral-- which many ACs will trap and immediately kill- neutered/managed
> or not.

I suspect that in areas where AC does that, the cats aren't tipped by
the TNR groups. Do you have any proof that they do?

>
> I haven't seen any
> > argument against tipping other than you "don't like" the ear tip
> > removed (you find it morally irreprehensible) and it is disfiguring.
>
>
> I find it what??

I meant reprehensible - it was late.

>
> Many people don't like the idea but they're forced to accept it because its
> the *easiest* and most *convenient* way to identify a feral. I think- in
> fact I'm certain- more people are more comfortable with tattooing than
> slicing off a piece of the cat's ear.

As would I if tattooing was as effective (the spotting and silhouette
argument).

<snip>

> >
> > I don't see it as any different than tagging snakes, or lions, or
> > banding birds, or whatever, in populations studies or environmental
> > impact studies. It serves a purpose in that it is done for the greater
> > good of the population, in general.
>
>
> You don't see FSL

What is FSL?

> or the big cats ear-tipped for all those National
> Geographic wildlife studies, do you?

No, they usually have tracking devices and or tags sewn in under (or
punched into) their skin. I know with snow leopards and tigers some
groups photograph them and catalog them based on the pelage patterns.
But in pop studies they often retrap the same indivduals over a period
of time to collect data, so there would be no need to tip. That's not
what I was getting at, anyway. What I meant was wild animals are
marked for ID reasons all the time - I don't see tipping ferals as any
different. In snakes, scales are permenetly removed. No different
from tipping, IMO.

>Btw, do you know what that little
> white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you normally not
> that observant or curious?
>

It serves at least two purposes - camo and it acts as a false eye to
thwart predators. Is that what you are getting at?

>
>
> I get the feeling that people who
> > bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
> > their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than that).
> > The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.
>
>
> IOW, you're saying feral cats are not entitled to any respect, and "helping"
> them give us the right to do whatever we please to them- and they should be
> grateful to us for not killing them.

Nope. Managing the population by neutering keeps more kittens and cats
off the dead pile. Feral cats are wild animals and should be managed
like any other wild animal. I'm not going to get all sentimental
simply because some cats are domesticated. No, we don't have the right
to "do whatever we want" with them, but we do have the right to do
procedures to them that allow the management of the population.


>
> > > If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > > > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it as
> > > > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect you feel differently
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course you're wrong.
>
>
> > So you don't feel differently?
>
>
> Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats a "bound in servitude"
> I see *me* as bound in servitude!

Thanks for clarifying.

>
> You see companion animals as being
> > bound in servitude as well?
>

Yes.

>
>
> I see you have a thorough understanding of cats. They are superbly obedient
> servants, aren't they? They obey our every command instantly without
> hesitation. That's ridiculous! You've got to be kidding! Of course I
> *don't*! I see my relationship with cats as a mutualistic relationship -
> kind of a symbiosis in which *both* of us benefit from being together. My
> cats receive shelter, food, medical care, affection, protection and
> companionship- since cats treat their humans as a member of their social
> group or even surrogate mothers- and in return I receive the joy of their
> company and companionship. *Both* of our lives are *improved* by our
> relationship. That's *mutualism* not servitude. Even working cats have a
> mutualistic relationship with their owners. In exchange for rodent control,
> they receive shelter and medical care. The only member of our relationship
> with cats that are "bound in servitude" is *US*! ...and most of us love
> it!
>
> You have a strange way of defining your relationship with your cats- I'll
> say that for you! We certainly are on different wavelengths. Its very easy
> to see why we disagree about ear-tipping-- and probably many other issues
> pertaining to cats as well.

I see that all as rationalizing a situation where we have domesticated
a wild animal for our own selfish needs.


> > > I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> > > my protection and care.
> >
> > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
>
> You think its what?

Again, reprehensible.

>
> I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't know, it
> was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially became
> commensal,

How did commensalism develop into domestication? Humans had to
interfere at some point. They sure as hell interfere now.

>and then they started the process of domestication *themselves*.

Um, sure. Who fed the cats? Who put them into service as pest
control?

> You have a lot to learn about cats-

Whatever, Phil. Enjoy your slaves.


>
> You left a trap unattended???

Um, yes, dear. We are checking it every 2-2.5 hours. It was around
the corner from my house.

>
> I hope you caught him.

Her, as I suspected. We did - between 2:45 and 5:00AM. She was spayed
early this AM and is on a road trip to her new home as we speak. :)

-L.

-L.
November 18th 05, 09:25 AM
Lumpy wrote:
<snip>

> >
> > Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats a "bound in servitude"
> > I see *me* as bound in servitude!
>
> :) And here is yet another great point. Lyn is forever overestimating
> AND overstating her own power--because she needs to.

Um, no dumb ass. I simply don't give a **** about your perceived
****ing war. Get it? You are the one power tripping here, and always
have been. Piggy Lover.

<snip>

>
> That's right, it's not a word!

Yes it is. Look it up. I meant reprehensible, though.

>We do have an Irregardless Cafe here
> in Raleigh. lol

I have friends in Raleigh, ya know.

-L.

-L.
November 18th 05, 09:32 AM
Lumpy wrote:
> And yet Phil, who has forgotten more than you have ever known about
> rescue, agrees with me. :)

Two old boors still only make a pair. Phil doesn't have an alternative
that is as good, either. He admits so.

-L.

Wendy
November 18th 05, 01:12 PM
> wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>>
>>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
>>and
>>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
>>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly fill.
>>And the cycle begins again.
>>
>
> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>
> -mhd

What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?

W

Wendy
November 18th 05, 01:14 PM
"No More Retail" > wrote in message
.. .
> only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)
>
>

I might pay to see that - the pink tu tu part that is. LOL

W

whitershadeofpale
November 18th 05, 03:50 PM
Wendy wrote:
> "No More Retail" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)
> >
> >
>
> I might pay to see that - the pink tu tu part that is. LOL
>
> W

Pink? It's my new obsession!
Pink? It's not even a question
Pink, on the lips of your lover
Cause pink is the love you discover

Pink, as the bing on you're cherry
Pink cause you are so very
Pink it's the color of passion
Cause today it just goes with a fashion

Pink gets me high as a kite

I think everything is going to be alright!

You could be my flamingo

Pink, it's the new kind of lingo
Pink, like a deco umbrella
It's kink, but I don't ever tell it!

Pink is my favorite crayon

It's like red but not quite!

as I say, everything is going to be alright

lol

Lumpy
November 18th 05, 04:22 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Phil P." > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
> >>and
> >>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
> >>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly
fill.
> >>And the cycle begins again.
> >>
> >
> > From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
> > and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
> >
> > -mhd
>
> What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>

That's what I want to know too.

-L.
November 18th 05, 06:34 PM
Wendy wrote:
>
> What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>
> W

It's a system Big Brother came up with to keep taps on the sheeple.
It's been ridiculed by just about every privacy group in the country.
Its currently used in stores to track inventory, protect from theft,
etc.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/#introduction
-L.

Sharon Talbert
November 18th 05, 10:11 PM
I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
make my statement. I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
responses and/or possible abuse. (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
are awesome!)

Friends of Campus Cats ear-tips (straight cut across the tip of one ear,
just as Alley Cat Allies suggests; they even supply a directive to vets on
how to do this simple surgery as needed). We do it so that animal can be
spotted at a distance as having been processed. This is not merely for
our convenience (though anything that would help rescuers/feral cat
clinics do their work most efficiently is not to be discounted in my
book). It is our hope that such obvious marking will without doubt catch
the eye of Animal Control if the animal is trapped as a stray or brought
in injured. (And we have participated in such rescues, thanks to the
Seattle Animal Shelter.)

If ACA has stopped recommending ear-tipping I was not aware of it. What's
more, I would be disappointed if they did.

I would like to see a combination of tatooing and ear-tipping, if only to
help track individual animals and colonies. In the case of Cheetah (the
guy Seattle Animal Shelter turned over to us as a badly injured feral)
tatooing might have reunited him with his feeder. On the other hand, then
we never would have found out that he was a tame guy and not feral at all!
And he wouldn't have the wonderful home he has now.

Sorry for the rambling message. Hard to write well when you are in a
hurry.

My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
rarely disgree with what you have to say. This is one of those rare
instances.

Sharon Talbert
Friends of Campus Cats



On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Phil P. wrote:

>
> "Diane" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>>> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
>>> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
>>> tipped cats you see?
>>>
>>> http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>>
>> Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?
>
>
> The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony. That's
> how managed colonies should look.
>
> Most stray cats I've
>> ever seen have been thin and matted, dirty, covered with sores, etc.
>
> Sure. Many strays and ferals are in pretty bad shape before they're
> managed. Neutering drastically reduces aggression and the wounds and
> abscesses that follow, and ample and regular food drastically reduces fights
> over food. Without the competitive pressures of sex and food the true social
> nature of the cats emerge and the cats are free to shape their own little
> community anyway they please. Each colony actually has their own little,
> unique culture.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

whitershadeofpale
November 18th 05, 11:09 PM
Sharon Talbert wrote:
> I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
> make my statement. I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> responses and/or possible abuse. (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
> are awesome!)
>


He ain't all that is he?

mmm mmm, naw

this post smell like feet

Wendy
November 19th 05, 12:11 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Wendy wrote:
>>
>> What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>>
>> W
>
> It's a system Big Brother came up with to keep taps on the sheeple.
> It's been ridiculed by just about every privacy group in the country.
> Its currently used in stores to track inventory, protect from theft,
> etc.
>
> http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/#introduction
> -L.



Ok not particularly cheap.

Wendy
November 19th 05, 12:12 AM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Wendy wrote:
>> "No More Retail" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> > only if you watch big boy while wearing a pink tu tu ;-)
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I might pay to see that - the pink tu tu part that is. LOL
>>
>> W
>
> Pink? It's my new obsession!
> Pink? It's not even a question
> Pink, on the lips of your lover
> Cause pink is the love you discover
>
> Pink, as the bing on you're cherry
> Pink cause you are so very
> Pink it's the color of passion
> Cause today it just goes with a fashion
>
> Pink gets me high as a kite
>
> I think everything is going to be alright!
>
> You could be my flamingo
>
> Pink, it's the new kind of lingo
> Pink, like a deco umbrella
> It's kink, but I don't ever tell it!
>
> Pink is my favorite crayon
>
> It's like red but not quite!
>
> as I say, everything is going to be alright
>
> lol
>

LOL so that's a yes you'll wear the pink tu tu?

W

whitershadeofpale
November 19th 05, 02:34 AM
Wendy wrote:

> LOL so that's a yes you'll wear the pink tu tu?
>
> W

O - nO

:)~

you got a pink cowboy hat? I know a little trick

Lumpy
November 19th 05, 03:35 AM
"Sharon Talbert" > wrote in message
. washington.edu...
>
> I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
> make my statement. I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> responses and/or possible abuse. (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
> are awesome!)

He really is. His position on the matter and mine are the same, as you know.

whitershadeofpale
November 19th 05, 03:39 AM
Sharon Talbert wrote:

> My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> rarely disgree with what you have to say. This is one of those rare
> instances.
>
> Sharon Talbert
> Friends of Campus Cats

ooops, I see you are legit!

Im just messin anyway, I like Phil
He knows his stuff fo shure!

cybercat
November 19th 05, 04:20 AM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sharon Talbert wrote:
>
> > My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> > rarely disgree with what you have to say. This is one of those rare
> > instances.
> >
> > Sharon Talbert
> > Friends of Campus Cats
>
> ooops, I see you are legit!
>
> Im just messin anyway, I like Phil
> He knows his stuff fo shure!
>

One of my personal heroes, Charles Bukowski once said, "A lot of obnoxious
characters work their way
into immortality. I'm working on it myself."

The most exquisite rose has thorns.

Then again, there are blowhard jackasses without an ounce of worth to anyone
who have thorns
too.

I can tell the difference.

Nearly every one but the blowhard jackasses can.

November 19th 05, 06:07 AM
"Wendy" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
>>>and
>>>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
>>>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly fill.
>>>And the cycle begins again.
>>>
>>
>> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
>> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>>
>> -mhd
>
>What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>
>W
>

It is a radio tag technology that is being used for everything from
inventory tags on retail goods (Walmart), monitoring anything passing
by (highways, mall store fronts), to the US government soon to be
implemented secure passports. It's cheap enough that retailers and
manufacturing will be using it en masse. Its range can vary widely
based on implementation and design, but it doesn't need to be read
from afar . How about reading anything within a foot of a rescue trap
and triggering a noise that scares the cat from entering. Too
expensive to outfit traps with receivers you say? Well from the
whining about how valuable rescuers time is, it is probably a bargain.

-mhd

-L.
November 19th 05, 06:47 AM
Lumpy wrote:
> "Sharon Talbert" > wrote in message
> . washington.edu...
> >
> > I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> > messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
> > make my statement. I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> > responses and/or possible abuse. (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
> > are awesome!)
>
> He really is. His position on the matter and mine are the same, as you know.

Slurp, slurp, slurp. Aren't your lips tired yet?
-L.

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 07:10 AM
"Sharon Talbert" > wrote in message
. washington.edu...

> My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> rarely disgree with what you have to say. This is one of those rare
> instances.

I certainly respect your opinion and that of Ally Cat Allies even though I
don't condone the practice. I feel an equal or better system could be
developed if enough people pressed the issued. I think ear-tipping is a
primitive and crude method of identifying ferals especially with our present
level of technology.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing you opinion.

Phil

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 07:20 AM
> wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> >
> >It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
and
> >TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
> >Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly
fill.
> >And the cycle begins again.
> >
>
> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>
> -mhd

I think the scanner might be more important than the chip. The scanner
energizes the chip which then sends a signal with the number. So the
scanner must be powerful enough to reach the chip from at least 100' away.
My
pocket multiscanner must almost touch the cat to detect or read a chip, and
my Power Tracker- which is one the most powerful scanners- only reads a chip
from about a foot away. The greatest range of a scanner (that I know
of) is only about 5'. It doesn't really matter if the scanner is capable of
reading a chip at 100'- it just has to detect it. Being chipped means the
cat is either owned or managed and doesn't need to be trapped.

There is pole scanner- but even though the person can stand a few feet away
from the animal, the sensor at the end of the pole must still be within
about 6" from the chip to read it. The pole scanner is great for scanning
fractious cats in a cage or trap-- but it still means the cat must be
trapped- and that's what this argument is all about.

The cost of the chip would also have to come down drastically- from about
$30 to
<$10 to make chipping economically feasible for TNR groups. This is where I
think the government should step in and subsidize the cost of the chips. In
the long run, chipping ferals would be cheaper than the endless cycle of
trapping and killing.

Santa Clara County Animal Control estimated that the cost to handle a
cat for the three required days in the shelter, plus killing and disposal,
is $70 per cat. So, even at the present price of chips, microchipping ferals
would be a bargain-- but we'd need a long range scanner.


Phil

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 07:28 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Lumpy wrote:
> > And yet Phil, who has forgotten more than you have ever known about
> > rescue, agrees with me. :)
>
> Two old boors still only make a pair.


I may be a boor to people that lack the intelligence and wisdom to
understand my values, but I'm younger than you and probably twice your age.

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 07:42 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > > > I see that. Its interesting that you consider respect and
compassion
> > >
> > > I don't see anything about tipping as lacking respect or compassion.
> >
> >
> > I know. That's what's so disturbing about you.
> >
>
> Whatever, Phil. Be disturbed all you want.


I'd bet you're the life of a party and save a fortune on Christmas cards.




Make up scenarios all you
> want. Go ahead - no skin off my nose.


That might not be such a bad idea, you know. Every little bit helps.


Doesn't change the fact that
> tipping serves a valuable purpose in helping to manage the cat overpop
> problem.


That's because people like you are content with the status quo. Perhaps if
you voiced your disdain (if you actually had any) you might become part of
the solution instead of part of the problem.



> > > It serves an important purpose to the cat population, in general.
> >
> >
> > Here we go again. No, it doesn't.
>
> Saving a cat's life because it is tipped doesn't serve the general cat
> population in your book?


Tattooing would save a cat's life, too, and doesn't involve slicing off a
piece of a cat.



(Remember, we haven't proven the ear tattoo
> theory).


Oooooh yes we have. Tattooing *does* work - it just involves a little more
work-- and some people could use a little extra work.



Being able to TNR more cats because of tipping isn't valuable
> to you? Fine.


People who answer their own questions usually get the wrong answers.

Efficiency could be tightened up in other ways that doesn't involve slicing
off a piece of the cat. For instance, transferring the cat to a cage on the
spot instead of transporting the cat in the trap and tying up the trap for a
day and/or using a Duraflex
net- but that requires someone whose light on their feet and has quick
reflexes.


> I could now call you uncaring and melodramatic.


Sure you could- but I think anyone that knows me would think you're idiot if
you did- if they don't already.


But
> being so derisive doesn't really serve any purpose for the sake of the
> argument, does it?


About the same as calling me an 'old boor', eh slim?


>
> > It simply makes trappers' job easier. In
> > fact, in some cases eartipping is detrimental because it identifies the
cat
> > as feral-- which many ACs will trap and immediately kill-
neutered/managed
> > or not.
>
> I suspect that in areas where AC does that, the cats aren't tipped by
> the TNR groups.


No, they're actually tipped by vets. Of course they're tipped by TNR groups!
Who else tips cats? Grateful mice that got away?


> Do you have any proof that they do?


Yes.



>
> >
> > I haven't seen any
> > > argument against tipping other than you "don't like" the ear tip
> > > removed (you find it morally irreprehensible) and it is disfiguring.
> >
> >
> > I find it what??
>
> I meant reprehensible - it was late.


It must have been very late. You used it twice.. I thought it was
aliententional and delibverate. For a minute I thought I finally learned
something from you.


>
> >
> > Many people don't like the idea but they're forced to accept it because
its
> > the *easiest* and most *convenient* way to identify a feral. I think-
in
> > fact I'm certain- more people are more comfortable with tattooing than
> > slicing off a piece of the cat's ear.
>
> As would I if tattooing was as effective (the spotting and silhouette
> argument).


Naa. You give me the impression that you're content with ear tipping. You
made it abundantly clear that it doesn't bother you at all.


>
> <snip>
>
> > >
> > > I don't see it as any different than tagging snakes, or lions, or
> > > banding birds, or whatever, in populations studies or environmental
> > > impact studies. It serves a purpose in that it is done for the greater
> > > good of the population, in general.
> >
> >
> > You don't see FSL
>
> What is FSL?


The African Wildcat- Felis Sylvestris Lybica.


>
> > or the big cats ear-tipped for all those National
> > Geographic wildlife studies, do you?
>
> No, they usually have tracking devices and or tags sewn in under (or
> punched into) their skin.


Sounds like the same principal as a microchip, doesn't it? Chips would
work even better than ear-tipping if the scanners had a longer range and the
chips were cheaper. Perhaps if enough people voiced their disdain with
ear-tipping instead of defending it Avid or some other chip company might
develop a long-range scanner and economical chips.



I don't see tipping ferals as any
> different. In snakes, scales are permenetly removed. No different
> from tipping, IMO.


Yeah, I know. They're only wild animals, so who gives a ****.


>
> >Btw, do you know what that little
> > white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you normally
not
> > that observant or curious?
> >
>
> It serves at least two purposes - camo and it acts as a false eye to
> thwart predators.


Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you collaborate with JD?



>Is that what you are getting at?


No. I was going to tell you, but your guess was so funny that I can't wait
to hear your next one.



> > I get the feeling that people who
> > > bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
> > > their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than that).
> > > The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.
> >
> >
> > IOW, you're saying feral cats are not entitled to any respect, and
"helping"
> > them give us the right to do whatever we please to them- and they should
be
> > grateful to us for not killing them.



> > > > If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > > > > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see it
as
> > > > > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread altogether.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect you feel differently
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Of course you're wrong.
> >
> >
> > > So you don't feel differently?
> >
> >
> > Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats as "bound in
servitude"
> > I see *me* as bound in servitude!
>
> Thanks for clarifying.
>
> >
> > You see companion animals as being
> > > bound in servitude as well?
> >
>
> Yes.


I wish I was "bound" in the same type of "servitude" as my cats! Your
perception of reality is kinda strange. I'd bet you hear that a lot.




> > I see you have a thorough understanding of cats. They are superbly
obedient
> > servants, aren't they? They obey our every command instantly without
> > hesitation. That's ridiculous! You've got to be kidding! Of course I
> > *don't*! I see my relationship with cats as a mutualistic
relationship -
> > kind of a symbiosis in which *both* of us benefit from being together.
My
> > cats receive shelter, food, medical care, affection, protection and
> > companionship- since cats treat their humans as a member of their social
> > group or even surrogate mothers- and in return I receive the joy of
their
> > company and companionship. *Both* of our lives are *improved* by our
> > relationship. That's *mutualism* not servitude. Even working cats have
a
> > mutualistic relationship with their owners. In exchange for rodent
control,
> > they receive shelter and medical care. The only member of our
relationship
> > with cats that are "bound in servitude" is *US*! ...and most of us
love
> > it!
> >
> > You have a strange way of defining your relationship with your cats-
I'll
> > say that for you! We certainly are on different wavelengths. Its very
easy
> > to see why we disagree about ear-tipping-- and probably many other
issues
> > pertaining to cats as well.
>
> I see that all as rationalizing a situation where we have domesticated
> a wild animal for our own selfish needs.


ZOOOOOM>>> You don't see very well, do you? Yeah- and the cats don't get
anything out of the relationship- its all about us. Do you even know what a
mutualistic relationship is?



>
>
> > > > I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> > > > my protection and care.
> > >
> > > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
> >
> > You think its what?
>
> Again, reprehensible.


I thought it was a typo the first time.


>
> >
> > I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't
know, it
> > was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially
became
> > commensal,
>
> How did commensalism develop into domestication?


Domestication actually involved a two-step process. The *partnership* began
as commensal. The early cats fed on the mice in the granaries and left the
grain alone. The cats that displayed affiliative behavior towards people
gradually made their way into peoples' homes. Each successive generation of
the human-tolerant population produced offspring that were even more
accepting of humans. Domestication began as a by-product of the mutualistic
relationship--- which the *cats* initiated.




Humans had to
> interfere at some point. They sure as hell interfere now.



I don't think you understand. Did you have your morning coffee yet? Or is
your perception normally this slow? The ancestors of the domestic cat were
initially drawn to human settlements- because that's where they could find a
steady source of prey and shelter- not the other way around. Humans didn't
have to trap cats to make them pets. Cats and humans both benefited from the
association with each other- just like we do today. "Bound servitude" is a
ludicrous description of the relationship between cats and humans. It was
and still is a *mutualistic relationship*.




>
> >and then they started the process of domestication *themselves*.
>


> Um, sure.


As if you had a clue about the history of cats. LOL!



>
Who fed the cats?


They fed *themselves*, Einstein. The granaries attracted an abundant supply
of mice.



Who put them into service as pest
> control?


*Themselves*, Einstein. The cats went where the food and shelter were- just
like they do today. They were attracted to the granaries by the steady
supply mice. Wow! You really are clueless about the cat's history. That's
probably why you have such little, if any respect for them.


>
> > You have a lot to learn about cats-

>
> Whatever, Phil.


Drew another blank, huh?


>Enjoy your slaves.


You have it backwards- My cats enjoy *their* slave- I enjoy my companions.


> > You left a trap unattended???
>
> Um, yes, dear. We are checking it every 2-2.5 hours.


That's not very smart. For such an <ahem> experienced trapper, you should
know better than to leave a trap unattended.

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 07:44 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > No, I don't think so. Because slicing off a piece of a cat's ear
doesn't
> > bother you, don't assume everyone is as insensitive and callous about
it.
>
> It has nothing to do with being "insensitive and callous".


Perhaps. But that's exactly how you sound whether you realize it or not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, you don't give a flying **** what people think.
Maybe that's your problem.


It has
> everything to do with being practical. I have said multiple times that
> if there were better ways to do it, I'd be all for it.


Really? Actually, you sound quite content with the status quo, otherwise,
you wouldn't defend it so fiercely. You haven't expressed the slightest
disdain with
the practice or any sincere desire to change it- other than "if there were
better ways to do it, I'd be all for it"-- IOW, C'est la Vie.


>
> > Even the groups I know who ear-tip aren't happy about it. Several
people in
> > this group have already voiced their discomfort with the practice.
>
> As have I, if you read what I actually wrote. The point is, to use "a
> lot of people feel the way I do" is a moot point.


No it isn't. Most of the changes in outdated policies were the result of
"a lot of people" wanting a better way.



Sure, a lot of
> people feel the way you do.


You're just not one of them. You really give the impression that you're
quite content with the practice- regardless of what you actually say.



But a lot of people also see the necessity
> of the practice, as I do.


Oops! There's that "a lot of people" again- that you said is "a moot
point".



This is not a ****ing contest where someone
> wins,


No ****- I said that at the beginning of this thread. I'm just trying to
find another way that's 'easy' and 'convenient' but doesn't involve slicing
off a piece of the cat


> despite what you and your idiot "me too" SlurpyGrrl think


I don't know the history between you two- nor do I care. But I don't think
*you* should call *her* an idiot. That's, um, 'irreprehensible'.

Phil P.
November 19th 05, 08:51 AM
> wrote in message
...
> "Wendy" > wrote:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Phil P." > wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a
chip
> >>>and
> >>>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
> >>>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly
fill.
> >>>And the cycle begins again.
> >>>
> >>
> >> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
> >> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
> >>
> >> -mhd
> >
> >What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
> >
> >W
> >
>
> It is a radio tag technology that is being used for everything from
> inventory tags on retail goods (Walmart), monitoring anything passing
> by (highways, mall store fronts), to the US government soon to be
> implemented secure passports. It's cheap enough that retailers and
> manufacturing will be using it en masse. Its range can vary widely
> based on implementation and design, but it doesn't need to be read
> from afar .

That's what they're whining about- they want to be able to tell from a
distance if a cat has been neutered or is managed so they don't waste
two years trying to trap a neutered cat.

A long-range scanner would be better than ear-tipping because the cat could
be scanned even if you couldn't see the cat clearly or even at all- e.g., if
she ran into a bush or under a car. All you would have to see is the
general direction in which the cat ran.

So there *is* a better way- it just needs to be realized economically.



How about reading anything within a foot of a rescue trap
> and triggering a noise that scares the cat from entering.

That's kinda similar to a chute scanner- it reads livestock with chips or
tags passing through a chute into a pen or truck. They have a range of
about 5'.


Too
> expensive to outfit traps with receivers you say? Well from the
> whining about how valuable rescuers time is, it is probably a bargain.
>
> -mhd

LOL!

Phil

cybercat
November 19th 05, 11:56 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Lumpy wrote:
> > "Sharon Talbert" > wrote in message
> > . washington.edu...
> > >
> > > I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all
the
> > > messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at
least
> > > make my statement. I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> > > responses and/or possible abuse. (With all due respect to you, Phil;
you
> > > are awesome!)
> >
> > He really is. His position on the matter and mine are the same, as you
know.
>
> Slurp, slurp, slurp. Aren't your lips tired yet?
> -L.
>

It's a simple fact. On this issue, Phil and I agree. You don't need to get
all huffy
just because it blows your lame argument that the only reason tipping
bothers me
is that I do not trap cats all to hell.

cybercat
November 19th 05, 12:04 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Lumpy wrote:
> > > And yet Phil, who has forgotten more than you have ever known about
> > > rescue, agrees with me. :)
> >
> > Two old boors still only make a pair.
>
>
> I may be a boor to people that lack the intelligence and wisdom to
> understand my values, but I'm younger than you and probably twice your
age.
>
>

Sorry, Phil. If you continue to agree with me despite Lyn's laughable
attempts
to produce a viable argument against my opinion, then you must face the
*choke* devastation of Lyn's sixth-grade insults. Lacking both substance
and style, her rage is all she has. An example of Lyn's idea wit: "two old
boors only make a pair" tells you all you really need to know.

With Lyn, just as with Cheryl and Megan, it is all about discrediting others
so that they might look better. The problem is, it only works with those as
stupid as they are.

cybercat
November 19th 05, 12:09 PM
"Phil P." > wrote

> >
> > Whatever, Phil. Be disturbed all you want.
> >
> I'd bet you're the life of a party and save a fortune on Christmas cards.
>

Oh, man! Now you're gonna make her say "Duh!" :)
>
>
> > I could now call you uncaring and melodramatic.
>
>
> Sure you could- but I think anyone that knows me would think you're idiot
if
> you did- if they don't already.

Phil, you are missing an important part of the formula: it doesn't matter if
it is true, as long as it discredits. It doesn't matter if it makes sense,
as long
as it makes Lyn feel better about her deficiencies. "There is no reality,
only
perception," remember that? That means everything is relative, therefore if
Lyn keeps saying the same things over and over, more and more loudly,
someone, somewhere, will think she is right! It's the Lyn School of "I
can't argue my way out of a wet paper bag, but via volume and persistence
I will prevail."


>
>
> But
> > being so derisive doesn't really serve any purpose for the sake of the
> > argument, does it?
>
>
> About the same as calling me an 'old boor', eh slim?
>
>
> >
> > > It simply makes trappers' job easier. In
> > > fact, in some cases eartipping is detrimental because it identifies
the
> cat
> > > as feral-- which many ACs will trap and immediately kill-
> neutered/managed
> > > or not.
> >
> > I suspect that in areas where AC does that, the cats aren't tipped by
> > the TNR groups.
>
>
> No, they're actually tipped by vets. Of course they're tipped by TNR
groups!
> Who else tips cats? Grateful mice that got away?
>
>
> > Do you have any proof that they do?
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > I haven't seen any
> > > > argument against tipping other than you "don't like" the ear tip
> > > > removed (you find it morally irreprehensible) and it is disfiguring.
> > >
> > >
> > > I find it what??
> >
> > I meant reprehensible - it was late.
>
>
> It must have been very late. You used it twice.. I thought it was
> aliententional and delibverate. For a minute I thought I finally learned
> something from you.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Many people don't like the idea but they're forced to accept it
because
> its
> > > the *easiest* and most *convenient* way to identify a feral. I think-
> in
> > > fact I'm certain- more people are more comfortable with tattooing than
> > > slicing off a piece of the cat's ear.
> >
> > As would I if tattooing was as effective (the spotting and silhouette
> > argument).
>
>
> Naa. You give me the impression that you're content with ear tipping.
You
> made it abundantly clear that it doesn't bother you at all.
>
>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > >
> > > > I don't see it as any different than tagging snakes, or lions, or
> > > > banding birds, or whatever, in populations studies or environmental
> > > > impact studies. It serves a purpose in that it is done for the
greater
> > > > good of the population, in general.
> > >
> > >
> > > You don't see FSL
> >
> > What is FSL?
>
>
> The African Wildcat- Felis Sylvestris Lybica.
>
>
> >
> > > or the big cats ear-tipped for all those National
> > > Geographic wildlife studies, do you?
> >
> > No, they usually have tracking devices and or tags sewn in under (or
> > punched into) their skin.
>
>
> Sounds like the same principal as a microchip, doesn't it? Chips would
> work even better than ear-tipping if the scanners had a longer range and
the
> chips were cheaper. Perhaps if enough people voiced their disdain with
> ear-tipping instead of defending it Avid or some other chip company might
> develop a long-range scanner and economical chips.
>
>
>
> I don't see tipping ferals as any
> > different. In snakes, scales are permenetly removed. No different
> > from tipping, IMO.
>
>
> Yeah, I know. They're only wild animals, so who gives a ****.
>
>
> >
> > >Btw, do you know what that little
> > > white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you normally
> not
> > > that observant or curious?
> > >
> >
> > It serves at least two purposes - camo and it acts as a false eye to
> > thwart predators.
>
>
> Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you collaborate with JD?
>
>
>
> >Is that what you are getting at?
>
>
> No. I was going to tell you, but your guess was so funny that I can't
wait
> to hear your next one.
>
>
>
> > > I get the feeling that people who
> > > > bemoan the tipped ear do so because they equate the feral cat with
> > > > their own pet (not you, though - I think you are brighter than
that).
> > > > The truly feral cat is an extremely different animal.
> > >
> > >
> > > IOW, you're saying feral cats are not entitled to any respect, and
> "helping"
> > > them give us the right to do whatever we please to them- and they
should
> be
> > > grateful to us for not killing them.
>
>
>
> > > > > If I had my way, all cats (and dogs) would be wild, not
> > > > > > domesticated and used as some child-substitute by humans. I see
it
> as
> > > > > > binding them in servitude. But that's another thread
altogether.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suspect you feel differently
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course you're wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > > So you don't feel differently?
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course I feel differently! I don't see pet cats as "bound in
> servitude"
> > > I see *me* as bound in servitude!
> >
> > Thanks for clarifying.
> >
> > >
> > > You see companion animals as being
> > > > bound in servitude as well?
> > >
> >
> > Yes.
>
>
> I wish I was "bound" in the same type of "servitude" as my cats! Your
> perception of reality is kinda strange. I'd bet you hear that a lot.
>
>
>
>
> > > I see you have a thorough understanding of cats. They are superbly
> obedient
> > > servants, aren't they? They obey our every command instantly without
> > > hesitation. That's ridiculous! You've got to be kidding! Of course I
> > > *don't*! I see my relationship with cats as a mutualistic
> relationship -
> > > kind of a symbiosis in which *both* of us benefit from being together.
> My
> > > cats receive shelter, food, medical care, affection, protection and
> > > companionship- since cats treat their humans as a member of their
social
> > > group or even surrogate mothers- and in return I receive the joy of
> their
> > > company and companionship. *Both* of our lives are *improved* by our
> > > relationship. That's *mutualism* not servitude. Even working cats
have
> a
> > > mutualistic relationship with their owners. In exchange for rodent
> control,
> > > they receive shelter and medical care. The only member of our
> relationship
> > > with cats that are "bound in servitude" is *US*! ...and most of us
> love
> > > it!
> > >
> > > You have a strange way of defining your relationship with your cats-
> I'll
> > > say that for you! We certainly are on different wavelengths. Its very
> easy
> > > to see why we disagree about ear-tipping-- and probably many other
> issues
> > > pertaining to cats as well.
> >
> > I see that all as rationalizing a situation where we have domesticated
> > a wild animal for our own selfish needs.
>
>
> ZOOOOOM>>> You don't see very well, do you? Yeah- and the cats don't get
> anything out of the relationship- its all about us. Do you even know what
a
> mutualistic relationship is?
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > > > I view my cats as individuals and companions under
> > > > > my protection and care.
> > > >
> > > > They don't have any choice. Do they? That's what I object to. We
> > > > made them dependant on us. I think that's irreprehensible.
> > >
> > > You think its what?
> >
> > Again, reprehensible.
>
>
> I thought it was a typo the first time.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > I think you're a little misinformed/uninformed. In case you didn't
> know, it
> > > was the *cats* who began the domestication process. Cats initially
> became
> > > commensal,
> >
> > How did commensalism develop into domestication?
>
>
> Domestication actually involved a two-step process. The *partnership*
began
> as commensal. The early cats fed on the mice in the granaries and left
the
> grain alone. The cats that displayed affiliative behavior towards people
> gradually made their way into peoples' homes. Each successive generation
of
> the human-tolerant population produced offspring that were even more
> accepting of humans. Domestication began as a by-product of the
mutualistic
> relationship--- which the *cats* initiated.
>
>
>
>
> Humans had to
> > interfere at some point. They sure as hell interfere now.
>
>
>
> I don't think you understand. Did you have your morning coffee yet? Or is
> your perception normally this slow? The ancestors of the domestic cat
were
> initially drawn to human settlements- because that's where they could find
a
> steady source of prey and shelter- not the other way around. Humans
didn't
> have to trap cats to make them pets. Cats and humans both benefited from
the
> association with each other- just like we do today. "Bound servitude" is
a
> ludicrous description of the relationship between cats and humans. It was
> and still is a *mutualistic relationship*.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > >and then they started the process of domestication *themselves*.
> >
>
>
> > Um, sure.
>
>
> As if you had a clue about the history of cats. LOL!
>
>
>
> >
> Who fed the cats?
>
>
> They fed *themselves*, Einstein. The granaries attracted an abundant
supply
> of mice.
>
>
>
> Who put them into service as pest
> > control?
>
>
> *Themselves*, Einstein. The cats went where the food and shelter were-
just
> like they do today. They were attracted to the granaries by the steady
> supply mice. Wow! You really are clueless about the cat's history.
That's
> probably why you have such little, if any respect for them.
>
>
> >
> > > You have a lot to learn about cats-
>
> >
> > Whatever, Phil.
>
>
> Drew another blank, huh?
>
>
> >Enjoy your slaves.
>
>
> You have it backwards- My cats enjoy *their* slave- I enjoy my companions.
>
>
> > > You left a trap unattended???
> >
> > Um, yes, dear. We are checking it every 2-2.5 hours.
>
>
> That's not very smart. For such an <ahem> experienced trapper, you should
> know better than to leave a trap unattended.
>
>
>
>
>

5cats
November 19th 05, 02:00 PM
wrote:

> "Wendy" > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
...
>>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a
>>>>chip and
>>>>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill
>>>>cats. Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will
>>>>quickly fill. And the cycle begins again.
>>>>
>>>
>>> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
>>> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>>>
>>> -mhd
>>
>>What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>>
>>W
>>
>
> It is a radio tag technology that is being used for everything from
> inventory tags on retail goods (Walmart), monitoring anything passing
> by (highways, mall store fronts), to the US government soon to be
> implemented secure passports. It's cheap enough that retailers and
> manufacturing will be using it en masse. Its range can vary widely
> based on implementation and design, but it doesn't need to be read
> from afar . How about reading anything within a foot of a rescue trap
> and triggering a noise that scares the cat from entering. Too
> expensive to outfit traps with receivers you say? Well from the
> whining about how valuable rescuers time is, it is probably a bargain.
>
> -mhd

Is RFID what the existing AVID chips use?

Wendy
November 20th 05, 11:15 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Phil P. wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>
> Sounds like the same principal as a microchip, doesn't it? Chips would
> work even better than ear-tipping if the scanners had a longer range and
> the
> chips were cheaper. Perhaps if enough people voiced their disdain with
> ear-tipping instead of defending it Avid or some other chip company might
> develop a long-range scanner and economical chips.
>
How do the chips work? Would it be possible with a long range scanner to
identify cats with a number of them present or would the signals get
confused? Do the chips function permanently or do they need to be replaced?
Are there any cases of the cats 'rejecting' them or reacting to them in a
negative way? I'm not familiar with microchips so please forgive my
ignorance.

W

Wendy
November 20th 05, 11:39 AM
> wrote in message
...
> "Wendy" > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
...
>>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
>>>>and
>>>>TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
>>>>Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly
>>>>fill.
>>>>And the cycle begins again.
>>>>
>>>
>>> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
>>> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>>>
>>> -mhd
>>
>>What is it? How does it work and what is cheap?
>>
>>W
>>
>
> It is a radio tag technology that is being used for everything from
> inventory tags on retail goods (Walmart), monitoring anything passing
> by (highways, mall store fronts), to the US government soon to be
> implemented secure passports. It's cheap enough that retailers and
> manufacturing will be using it en masse. Its range can vary widely
> based on implementation and design, but it doesn't need to be read
> from afar . How about reading anything within a foot of a rescue trap
> and triggering a noise that scares the cat from entering. Too
> expensive to outfit traps with receivers you say? Well from the
> whining about how valuable rescuers time is, it is probably a bargain.
>
> -mhd

Oh please do we need to get insulting. I wasn't whining just stating that
people are doing this on their own time after putting in 8 hours at work
already and then come home to take care of the house, kids and husband.
Unfortunately most of the volunteers in the group I work with are female and
in spite of women's lib and all that still have the majority of
responsibility when it comes to kids and homes. It also seems that a number
of husbands get almost as uptight about the cats as they would if their wife
had taken a lover. Come to think about it the cats probably monopolize more
of the wife's time than the lover would. I know I wouldn't get away spending
a couple of hours a day and all day Saturday with a lover.

I would love to see something that was efficient, affordable and didn't
change the cats appearance.

W

Wendy
November 20th 05, 12:48 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >It would probably be cheaper for the government to subsidize such a chip
> and
>> >TNR programs than pay the man-hours to continuously trap and kill cats.
>> >Killing a colony only creates a vacuum which other cats will quickly
> fill.
>> >And the cycle begins again.
>> >
>>
>> From what I have read about RFID technology we already have a cheap
>> and useful range device that could be adapted to TNR.
>>
>> -mhd
>
> I think the scanner might be more important than the chip. The scanner
> energizes the chip which then sends a signal with the number. So the
> scanner must be powerful enough to reach the chip from at least 100' away.
> My
> pocket multiscanner must almost touch the cat to detect or read a chip,
> and
> my Power Tracker- which is one the most powerful scanners- only reads a
> chip
> from about a foot away. The greatest range of a scanner (that I know
> of) is only about 5'. It doesn't really matter if the scanner is capable
> of
> reading a chip at 100'- it just has to detect it. Being chipped means the
> cat is either owned or managed and doesn't need to be trapped.
>
> There is pole scanner- but even though the person can stand a few feet
> away
> from the animal, the sensor at the end of the pole must still be within
> about 6" from the chip to read it. The pole scanner is great for scanning
> fractious cats in a cage or trap-- but it still means the cat must be
> trapped- and that's what this argument is all about.
>
> The cost of the chip would also have to come down drastically- from about
> $30 to
> <$10 to make chipping economically feasible for TNR groups. This is where
> I
> think the government should step in and subsidize the cost of the chips.
> In
> the long run, chipping ferals would be cheaper than the endless cycle of
> trapping and killing.
>
> Santa Clara County Animal Control estimated that the cost to handle a
> cat for the three required days in the shelter, plus killing and disposal,
> is $70 per cat. So, even at the present price of chips, microchipping
> ferals
> would be a bargain-- but we'd need a long range scanner.
>
>
> Phil
>

I don't want to hold my breath waiting for the government to step in. Around
here they don't give a damn about the cats. Animal control is a joke. I have
no clue what they do other than give people citations for unlicensed dogs.
The good news is that they leave the feral colonies alone. Now if the demon
spawn children would ....

November 20th 05, 04:30 PM
Phil wrote:
>NC may preach eartipping but it sure
>doesn't look like they practice it. You don't
>see any eartipped cats in the founder's
>*own* colony, do you- or are you normally
>not that observant?

Assuming one has a specific policy based on a few cats in a single video
is rather ignorant. I wrote to Bryan at Neighborhood Cats, made him
aware of the discussion and included your quote about declawing and
eartipping. This was his response, which he gave me permission to post:

"The cats in our first colony were not eartipped because we ourselves
were struggling with the practice at that time and were attempting other
methods such as tattooing. We came to realize that eartipping alone is
the only means of identifying ferals which is effective.

Since that first colony, thousands of feral cats have been neutered in
NYC and almost every single one has been eartipped.

Saying that eartipping is like declawing is an ignorant position. The
eartip is
a cosmetic intervention, not the equivalent of amputating 10 digits. It
is also
far less invasive than removing a female cat's uterus or a male cat's
testicles,
which I assume the person you refer to does not object to.

Try having an uneartipped cat unnecessarily cut open again when she's
already been spayed, or have a tattooed cat left to die at a shelter
because no one knew to look, and one's mind will change about this
practice.

Bryan Kortis
Neighborhood Cats"



Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

cybercat
November 20th 05, 05:05 PM
"Wendy" > wrote >

Too
> > expensive to outfit traps with receivers you say? Well from the
> > whining about how valuable rescuers time is, it is probably a bargain.
> >
> > -mhd
>
> Oh please do we need to get insulting. I wasn't whining just stating that
> people are doing this on their own time after putting in 8 hours at work
> already and then come home to take care of the house, kids and husband.

I don't think he was referring to you so much, Wendy.


[...]

> I would love to see something that was efficient, affordable and didn't
> change the cats appearance.
>

That's all the anti-tipping people are saying. It just makes sense.
I bet one day there will be a way, and discussions like this will
help it come sooner.

cybercat
November 20th 05, 05:06 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

> I don't want to hold my breath waiting for the government to step in.
Around
> here they don't give a damn about the cats. Animal control is a joke. I
have
> no clue what they do other than give people citations for unlicensed dogs.


True. We need an inventor!

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 07:36 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "-L." > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> Phil P. wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >
> > Sounds like the same principal as a microchip, doesn't it? Chips would
> > work even better than ear-tipping if the scanners had a longer range and
> > the
> > chips were cheaper. Perhaps if enough people voiced their disdain with
> > ear-tipping instead of defending it Avid or some other chip company
might
> > develop a long-range scanner and economical chips.
> >
> How do the chips work? Would it be possible with a long range scanner to
> identify cats with a number of them present or would the signals get
> confused?

The scanner activates the chip which can then be read by the scanner. A
long-range scanner would have to operate on the same principal as a radar
gun where the scanner would be pointed at a specific cat. The problem is at
the present time, there are no long-range scanners. The longest range of a
scanner (that I know of) is about 5 feet.



> Do the chips function permanently or do they need to be replaced?

No, chips don't need to be replaced because its the scanner's signal
activates the chip. Its possible for a chip to malfunction, but it rarely
happens.


> Are there any cases of the cats 'rejecting' them or reacting to them in a
> negative way?

Not that I know of.


I'm not familiar with microchips so please forgive my
> ignorance.

The major problem with microchips is that we can't rely on ACOs to scan
every animal. Many of the stories we hear about chips malfunctioning are
probably excuses because the ACOs didn't bother to scan the animals.

Phil

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 07:36 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would love to see something that was efficient, affordable and didn't
> change the cats appearance.

The only system that I can think of that would satisfy both sides is
long-range scanning. Actually, it would probably be even more efficient
than ear-tipping because if you couldn't see the cat's ear clearing, the
scanner would still detect the chip. The scanner wouldn't have to actually
read the chip- just detect the chip as that would indicate the cat was
either owned or managed.

Phil.

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 07:40 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> I don't want to hold my breath waiting for the government to step in.
Around
> here they don't give a damn about the cats. Animal control is a joke. I
have
> no clue what they do other than give people citations for unlicensed dogs.
> The good news is that they leave the feral colonies alone.


You're lucky. In many towns and counties ACOs specifically target feral
colonies and will fine you for feeding or releasing ferals. I was lucky
once because the cop didn't know the difference between a trap and cage that
has a sliding door.

Phil.

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 07:41 PM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> >NC may preach eartipping but it sure
> >doesn't look like they practice it. You don't
> >see any eartipped cats in the founder's
> >*own* colony, do you- or are you normally
> >not that observant?
>
> Assuming one has a specific policy based on a few cats in a single video
> is rather ignorant.


Probably not as ignorant as your posting a link to an article that you
didn't understand thinking it defended your postion when it actually
contradicted everything you said and confirmed my postion. I'll bet you'll
never forget the "Managing Pancreatitis" thread. LOL!


I wrote to Bryan at Neighborhood Cats, made him
> aware of the discussion

ROTFL! Next, I want you to write to the Pope and the entire College of
Cardinals and get a letter from each and every one of them approving of the
practice.

"The cats in our first colony were not eartipped because we ourselves
were struggling with the practice"

I'm pleased to know that Bryan is as disturbed about the practice as I am.

"Saying that eartipping is like declawing is an ignorant position. The
eartip is a cosmetic intervention, not the equivalent of amputating 10
digits".

Actually they are the same in principal since they're both considered
cosmetic surgery and neither provides any medical benefit for the cat.
Albeit ear-tipping is not nearly as traumatic as declawing, the principal is
the *same*.

Btw, Einstein, I've already admitted that ear-tipping is *currently* the
most effective method for identifying managed ferals from a distance. Do
try to keep up. I just don't like it. Nobody, and least of all a psychotic
hoarder, is going to change my feelings.

Now go start writing your letters to the Pope and the Cardinals. I want
their replies on my desk first thing Friday morning. LOL!

November 20th 05, 08:39 PM
Phil wrote:

>Probably not as ignorant as your posting
>a link to an article that you didn't
>understand thinking it defended your
>postion when it actually contradicted
>everything you said and confirmed my
>postion.

Rewriting history doesn't change the fact that you are wrong and are
outright lying to suit your needs. The article is easy to understand and
did not, as you claim, contradict everything I said.

The article I posted actually confirmed my position. It said high
carb/low fat was the "preferred diet", but put the focus on restricting
*fat* with no mention of carbs offering any benefit. You deceptively and
conveniently lied and left out what the article then went on to say,
which was that "the role of dietary therapy to control pancreatitis in
cats is in doubt."

That supported my position, not yours and once again in your desperation
to be right you drag something out from months ago that has nothing to
do with the subject at hand and then lie about what took place. The
only thing you accomplish is to make yourself look foolish.

As to the rest of your comments wrt the eartipping issue, you'll have to
take it up with Bryan since *he* is the one that wrote the words you are
responding to (apparently you are not that observant.)


Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Lumpy
November 20th 05, 08:55 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > As to the rest of your comments wrt the eartipping issue, you'll have to
> > take it up with Bryan since *he* is the one that wrote the words you are
> > responding to (apparently you are not that observant.)
>
> He did put that part in quotes ("), so I think he got it.
> --
>

I noticed that. I also noticed that Megan's post, which included Bryan's
statement, merely provided another opinion that

1. Although unfortunate, ear tipping is currently the most practical way to
identify ferals.

2. Cutting off the tip of the ear is a widespread practice.

We had already established both points.

Wendy
November 20th 05, 09:47 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I would love to see something that was efficient, affordable and didn't
>> change the cats appearance.
>
> The only system that I can think of that would satisfy both sides is
> long-range scanning. Actually, it would probably be even more efficient
> than ear-tipping because if you couldn't see the cat's ear clearing, the
> scanner would still detect the chip. The scanner wouldn't have to
> actually
> read the chip- just detect the chip as that would indicate the cat was
> either owned or managed.
>
> Phil.
>
>
>

Something like that would certainly be better if it was affordable and
widely accepted. We have had a few cats that we trapped who were found to be
friendly but not until after they were spayed/neutered and clipped. So there
are a few people with cats who have tipped ears.

If there were say 3 cats in somewhat close proximity to one another would
the scanner be able to detect that say two of them were chipped?

W

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 10:55 PM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
>
> >Probably not as ignorant as your posting
> >a link to an article that you didn't
> >understand thinking it defended your
> >position when it actually contradicted
> >everything you said and confirmed my
> >position.
>
> Rewriting history doesn't change the fact that you are wrong and are
> outright lying to suit your needs.


No, I don't think so. You're the sleazy liar who will say anything to try to
prove me wrong or discredit me. You've been trying for 5 years and haven't
succeeded yet. You only end up looking like an asshole every time you
try- -like you just did again.


The article is easy to understand and
> did not, as you claim, contradict everything I said.


Bull****. You opposed a carb-rich diet. I'll show you want an asshole you
are: If you restrict carbs- what do you feed the cat? Protein and fat.

"protein and fat augment pancreatic stimulation"
(Consultations In Feline Internal Medicine Vol. 3 p97:)


Is that clear enough for you? I cited that reference in the original thread.


>
> The article I posted actually confirmed my position.


You're delusional as well as psychotic. The article *contradicted* you. You
opposed feeding a carb-rich diet. Remember? Re-read the whole thread.


Here's the quote you ****ing liar:

You said: >"I also see you conveniently snipped the quotes from the article
that
>backs me up:"

I said: "Really? Seems like your reference backs *me* up and discounts you!
LOL!

"The preferred diet initially is a high carbohydrate low fat food. This type
of diet is less likely to stimulate pancreatic enzyme secretion. "

http://www.michvet.com/articles/internal_medicine/pancreatitis_092003.asp


You might want to try reading that which you reference before you cite it!"


After that you didn't post for months. Took that long for your ego to heal?
Or were waiting for people to forget you made an ass of yourself? LOL!


It said high
> carb/low fat was the "preferred diet", but put the focus on restricting
> *fat* with no mention of carbs offering any benefit.


It certainly did! The article said high carbohydrate low/fat food is "less
likely to stimulate pancreatic enzyme secretion". Wasn't that clear enough
for you? That sure sounds like a benefit to me.

If you knew anything about feline physiology, you would know why the article
recommended high-carbs. Carbohydrates put *less*stress on the pancreas.
Protein and fat are much more potent stimulants of pancreatic secretion than
carbohydrates. From the original thread:

"Saunders Manual of Small Animal Practice 2nd. ed. p.886

"Food (especially fats and proteins) stimulates pancreatic secretion through
cholecystokinin (CCK) release.

Authors:
Robert Sherding, D.V.M., Dipl. A.C.V.I.M., Professor of Small Animal
Internal Medicine, Ohio State University;
Susan Johnson, D.V.M., M.S., Dipl. A.C.V.I.M.;
Stephen J. Birchard, D.V.M., M.S., Dipl. A.C.V.I.M."


You deceptively and
> conveniently lied and left out what the article then went on to say,


LOL! No- I left it out because it didn't pertain to the argument at hand-
which was your opposition to their their recommendation of feeding a *high
carbohydrate/low fat* diet.



> which was that "the role of dietary therapy to control pancreatitis in
> cats is in doubt."

And? The article *still* recommended a high carbohydrate/low fat food.
Which was *my* point and *contradicted* yours. You *opposed* feeding a
carb-rich diet. You can't possibly deny it.

>
> That supported my position, not yours and once again in your desperation
> to be right


No, bimbo, its you whose desperate to prove me wrong or discredit me. You
started about 5 years ago when you realized I knew more about cats than you
did (and I still do.) The article *did not* support your position- it
*contradicted* your position because you *opposed* carb-rich diets. The
article *clearly* recommended a high-carbohydrate diet which clearly
*contradicted* your argument.


"The preferred diet initially is a high carbohydrate low fat food. This type
of diet is less likely to stimulate pancreatic enzyme secretion. "




>
> As to the rest of your comments wrt the eartipping issue, you'll have to
> take it up with Bryan since *he* is the one that wrote the words you are
> responding to (apparently you are not that observant.)


Really? Is that what the quotation marks meant? LOL!


Now, run along and start working on the letters I want from you.

cybercat
November 21st 05, 12:59 AM
> wrote

>So go ahead, I am giving you permission to have
^^^^^^^
> the last word and beat this dead horse silly. I have more important
> things to do.
>

lol

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 01:27 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil,
> I made my point and it is clear to anyone with even half a brain,


That's right, you did! You made the point that you were *wrong*.



> despite your attempt to manipulate facts and events. The article did not
> state that cats should be fed a high carb diet. It only stated that for
> pancreatitis


That's what we were discussing, Einstein, *diets* for a cat with
*pancreatitis* - not routine daily feeding.


>So go ahead, I am giving you permission to have the last word and beat this
dead horse silly. I have more important things to do.

Yeah, go ahead, sleaze away.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 01:45 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> If there were say 3 cats in somewhat close proximity to one another would
> the scanner be able to detect that say two of them were chipped?

It would depend on the angle of the signal. If the scanner had a narrow
angle signal it could probably read each cat. Such a scanner would probably
have a variable angle signal.

Phil

-L.
November 21st 05, 08:25 AM
Phil P. wrote:<snip>

> > >
> > > You don't see FSL
> >
> > What is FSL?
>
>
> The African Wildcat- Felis Sylvestris Lybica.

Oh, how could I have been so stupid!
<eye roll>


<snip>

>
> >
> > >Btw, do you know what that little
> > > white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you normally
> not
> > > that observant or curious?
> > >
> >
> > It serves at least two purposes - camo and it acts as a false eye to
> > thwart predators.
>
>
> Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you collaborate with JD?
>
>
>
> >Is that what you are getting at?
>
>
> No. I was going to tell you, but your guess was so funny that I can't wait
> to hear your next one.

So now you are denying that pelage patterns are used for camoflage?
And do you really want me to post a link about the purpose of the
false eye spots?

You're just being an ass for the fun of it.

<snip>

>
> You have it backwards- My cats enjoy *their* slave- I enjoy my companions.

You dictate where they live. They cannot leave. You remove their
ability to breed. You dictate what they eat and what they are able to
do. Sounds pretty much like slavery to me. Or do you allow your cats
to come and go as they please, breed at will, and allow them to hunt
and kill prey ? Somehow I suspect the early Egyptians would be
appalled at the current relationshp between man and cat.


>
>
> > > You left a trap unattended???
> >
> > Um, yes, dear. We are checking it every 2-2.5 hours.
>
>
> That's not very smart. For such an <ahem> experienced trapper, you should
> know better than to leave a trap unattended.

YOU apparently did:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/32c8fe6c10176775?hl=en&

"I gotta run - check my traps. If you have any questions, post them.
There're a few people here with a lot of experience testing and
regulating
diabetic cats. "

BUSTED!

Lookie, folks, here we have Phil P posting to Usenet while he has
baited traps that he's left
unattended. Or can we presume he was posting to Usenet in the field??
LOL...

But go ahead and belittle me, Phil. And belittle Megan, and whomever
else you don't agree with. Anything to make your microdick look
bigger in the mirror, right?

-L.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 05:59 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:<snip>
>
> > > >
> > > > You don't see FSL
> > >
> > > What is FSL?
> >
> >
> > The African Wildcat- Felis Sylvestris Lybica.
>
> Oh, how could I have been so stupid!
> <eye roll>


I don't know. I guess it just comes naturally.


>
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >Btw, do you know what that little
> > > > white spot is for on the back of Leopards' pinna- or are you
normally
> > not
> > > > that observant or curious?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It serves at least two purposes - camo and it acts as a false eye to
> > > thwart predators.
> >
> >
> > Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you collaborate with
JD?
> >
> >
> >
> > >Is that what you are getting at?
> >
> >
> > No. I was going to tell you, but your guess was so funny that I can't
wait
> > to hear your next one.
>
> So now you are denying that pelage patterns are used for camoflage?
> And do you really want me to post a link about the purpose of the
> false eye spots?


Yeah. I do. The leopard has white spots on the back of the ears so their
young can see them in the bush. White isn't exactly camo- unless you're in
the artic.



>
> You're just being an ass for the fun of it.


You started it, slim, with your stupid remarks. We always got along even
when we disagreed.



>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > You have it backwards- My cats enjoy *their* slave- I enjoy my
companions.
>
> You dictate where they live. They cannot leave. You remove their
> ability to breed. You dictate what they eat and what they are able to
> do. Sounds pretty much like slavery to me. Or do you allow your cats
> to come and go as they please, breed at will, and allow them to hunt
> and kill prey ? Somehow I suspect the early Egyptians would be
> appalled at the current relationshp between man and cat.



LOL! You really have some issues, don't you? You sound like the poster
child for PETA.




> > > > You left a trap unattended???
> > >
> > > Um, yes, dear. We are checking it every 2-2.5 hours.
> >
> >
> > That's not very smart. For such an <ahem> experienced trapper, you
should
> > know better than to leave a trap unattended.
>
> YOU apparently did:
>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/32c8fe6c10176775?hl=en&
>
> "I gotta run - check my traps. If you have any questions, post them.
> There're a few people here with a lot of experience testing and
> regulating
> diabetic cats. "
>
> BUSTED!


No, not quite. I was sitting in my truck with a nice hot thermos full of
coffee about 100' from the trap. I could just about see it but I could
clearly hear it spring. Usually I don't park that far away- but it was
winter and I was running the heater when it got cold in the truck.


>
> Lookie, folks, here we have Phil P posting to Usenet while he has
> baited traps that he's left
> unattended. Or can we presume he was posting to Usenet in the field??
> LOL...


You don't have to assume anything- I have an air card for my laptop- I have
internet access from *anywhere*. Before I got the air card, I used my cell
phone as a modem to connect. I need it for work- but it comes in handy on
all-nighters. A little behind the times, aren't you?

>
> But go ahead and belittle me, Phil. And belittle Megan, and whomever
> else you don't agree with.


Hey, you started it, slim. If you don't like the horns, don't **** with
bull.



Anything to make your microdick look
> bigger in the mirror, right?

I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
mirror.

Lumpy
November 21st 05, 06:31 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
>
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:<snip>
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > You don't see FSL
> > > >
> > > > What is FSL?
> > >
> > >
> > > The African Wildcat- Felis Sylvestris Lybica.
> >
> > Oh, how could I have been so stupid!
> > <eye roll>
>
>
> I don't know. I guess it just comes naturally.
>
It honestly does.



> > You're just being an ass for the fun of it.
>
>
> You started it, slim, with your stupid remarks. We always got along even
> when we disagreed.
>

Lyn has this pathological urge to keep on moving toward that which will
be her undoing. It's fascinating like a trainwreck. I try not to look, but
she
just keeps on coming on.


> LOL! You really have some issues, don't you? You sound like the poster
> child for PETA.

Precisely. She picked her stereotype then cut herself to fit. Undereducated,
over-zealous boneheads in faux birkenstocks. Bemoaning the fate of the
domesticated animals/

[..]

> Hey, you started it, slim. If you don't like the horns, don't **** with
> bull.

Now this is excellent advice.

Rhonda
November 21st 05, 06:45 PM
Oh Boy, you are going to get lots of LOL's in all his future replies to
you! You are in for it, haha.

I rarely read his posts. I got very skeptical after the Viet Nam war
buddy incident. Remember that? The buddy who just "happened" into the
group, Phoenix Rising was his name. They talked for weeks about Viet Nam
and what big men they were, on the group. For some reason just didn't
want to email their big stories to each other... Turned me off forever.

No amount of big-worded quotes from the many cat medical books on the
shelf will make up for that. I have no doubt he likes and tries to help
cats, but it doesn't appear that he knows much about people.

Rhonda

-L. wrote:


> But go ahead and belittle me, Phil. And belittle Megan, and whomever
> else you don't agree with. Anything to make your microdick look
> bigger in the mirror, right?

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 07:58 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Oh Boy, you are going to get lots of LOL's in all his future replies to
> you! You are in for it, haha.


I was wonder when you were going to chime in with your bull****. You're
late.


>
> I rarely read his posts.


That's a crock of ****- I've seen some of your posts where you parroted
something I said almost word for word years ago. Don't forget, I remember
you from a few years ago, you weren't exactly a fountain of knowledge about
cats and its unlikely you acquired 40 years of knowledge and experience in
5.



I got very skeptical after the Viet Nam war
> buddy incident. Remember that? The buddy who just "happened" into the
> group, Phoenix Rising was his name. They talked for weeks about Viet Nam
> and what big men they were, on the group. For some reason just didn't
> want to email their big stories to each other... Turned me off forever.


Sounds like you've been turned off for a long time in more ways than one.
You're another asshole that doesn't know the story but blathers away anyway.
The whole thing was set up by a third party- a mutual friend. But that
doesn't matter to you- as long as you have some bull**** to throw into the
mix.

Now go back to rarely reading my posts.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 08:05 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Diane" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As to the rest of your comments wrt the eartipping issue, you'll have
to
> > > take it up with Bryan since *he* is the one that wrote the words you
are
> > > responding to (apparently you are not that observant.)
> >
> > He did put that part in quotes ("), so I think he got it.
> > --
> >
>
> I noticed that. I also noticed that Megan's post, which included Bryan's
> statement, merely provided another opinion that
>
> 1. Although unfortunate, ear tipping is currently the most practical way
to
> identify ferals.
>
> 2. Cutting off the tip of the ear is a widespread practice.
>
> We had already established both points.

The real reason for Megan's post to Bryan was to rile him by implying I
thought they were hypocritical. She's good at instigating trouble.
Actually he admitted he has the same discomfort with the practice as I and
many other
people have. Unfortunately, he has no other choice.

November 21st 05, 10:28 PM
"Phil P." > wrote:

>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
>mirror.

Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
flour?

-mhd

Rhonda
November 21st 05, 10:39 PM
Hi Phil,

Phil P. wrote:

> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Oh Boy, you are going to get lots of LOL's in all his future replies to
>>you! You are in for it, haha.
>
> I was wonder when you were going to chime in with your bull****. You're
> late.


Had a run to the vet.


>>I rarely read his posts.
>
> That's a crock of ****- I've seen some of your posts where you parroted
> something I said almost word for word years ago. Don't forget, I remember
> you from a few years ago, you weren't exactly a fountain of knowledge about
> cats and its unlikely you acquired 40 years of knowledge and experience in
> 5.


Phil, I haven't been very active on the group all that long -- maybe a
year and a half, I'd say. I have periodically posted things, questions
mostly, especially the beginning of last year about our newly acquired
pregnant cat. I was not really a constant person on the group before that.

Awhile ago, I went back on google to see when I started. I kept getting
a lot of posts by "Rhonda" and I didn't remember writing them. They also
didn't sound like me. I know I'm not a spring chicken but am not THAT
forgetful! When Rhonda started talking about her kid, I realized I was
not crazy. Someone else emailed me recently about a fight I had with
someone once on this group, and it was not me.

So there was another Rhonda at some point on the group. Hard to believe
there's more than one :)

If the "parroting" did not have a san-toki in the email, it was not me.
If it was before last year -- it was most likely not me.

> I got very skeptical after the Viet Nam war
>
>>buddy incident. Remember that? The buddy who just "happened" into the
>>group, Phoenix Rising was his name. They talked for weeks about Viet Nam
>> and what big men they were, on the group. For some reason just didn't
>>want to email their big stories to each other... Turned me off forever.
>
>
> Sounds like you've been turned off for a long time in more ways than one.
> You're another asshole that doesn't know the story but blathers away anyway.
> The whole thing was set up by a third party- a mutual friend. But that
> doesn't matter to you- as long as you have some bull**** to throw into the
> mix.


Okay, then explain it to me Phil. I was not on this group, but someone I
know who was, told me to pull this up and "get a load of this." I could
not believe it. It was one of the most outrageous things I had ever seen
on usenet, so just explain it to me. It made you look like someone
desperate for attention and recognition.

Then how you "LOL" or call names to everyone who disagrees with you,
gets on my nerves. That's a sign of weakness, IMO, and not a way to hold
up your side of the discussion.

Rhonda

Joe Canuck
November 21st 05, 10:41 PM
wrote:

> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
>>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
>>mirror.
>
>
> Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
> flour?
>
> -mhd

To get ready for a date with the DoughBoy?

Lumpy
November 21st 05, 10:55 PM
"Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > "Phil P." > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
> >>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
> >>mirror.
> >
> >
> > Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
> > flour?
> >
> > -mhd
>
> To get ready for a date with the DoughBoy?
>

It's so the dough boy can find their oven door. So to speak. :)

No More Retail
November 21st 05, 10:58 PM
I thought it was the Dutch boy so he could find the spot that was leaking
and than he could plugged it with his finger
"Lumpy" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "Phil P." > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
>> >>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
>> >>mirror.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
>> > flour?
>> >
>> > -mhd
>>
>> To get ready for a date with the DoughBoy?
>>
>
> It's so the dough boy can find their oven door. So to speak. :)
>
>

November 21st 05, 11:02 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote:

>
>"Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
...
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "Phil P." > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
>> >>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
>> >>mirror.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
>> > flour?
>> >
>> > -mhd
>>
>> To get ready for a date with the DoughBoy?
>>
>
>It's so the dough boy can find their oven door. So to speak. :)
>

Hey why beat around the bush..

To find the wet spot - ta dum!
-mhd

whitershadeofpale
November 21st 05, 11:04 PM
wrote:

> Hey why beat around the bush..

?
that would be a waste

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 11:54 PM
> wrote in message
...
> "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> >I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward, I'm
> >happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
> >mirror.
>
> Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
> flour?
>
> -mhd

Yup. But don't get the wrong idea, I wasn't making fun of heavy women- just
that one because of her dick-comment. Maybe she thinks all men have
"microdicks" because that's all she's ever seen- and would account for her
attitude! LOL!

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 11:56 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Phil,
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> > ...

>
> If the "parroting" did not have a san-toki in the email, it was not me.
> If it was before last year -- it was most likely not me.


Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

>
> Okay, then explain it to me Phil. I was not on this group, but someone I
> know who was, told me to pull this up and "get a load of this."



Ah, so someone threw you some flamebait and you took it and ran with it.
So what was
your motive or reason? Just trying to start trouble and a flame war because
you don't like my LOLs?


>
> Then how you "LOL" or call names to everyone who disagrees with you,
> gets on my nerves.


Perhaps you're too sensitive for Usenet. Or you just kill-file me.



> That's a sign of weakness, IMO,


Actually, its a sign of amusement. Some people really make me laugh. 'Know
what I mean? LOL



and not a way to hold
> up your side of the discussion.

After a point, some discussions are no longer a discussion for me- its a
joke-- so I laugh. 'Know what I mean? LOL

Lumpy
November 21st 05, 11:59 PM
> wrote in message
...
> "Lumpy" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Phil P." > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>I don't think so. As long as I can see it without leaning forward,
I'm
> >> >>happy. You're just jealous because you can't see your feet without a
> >> >>mirror.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hey Phil, since she started it, do you know why fat women roll in
> >> > flour?
> >> >
> >> > -mhd
> >>
> >> To get ready for a date with the DoughBoy?
> >>
> >
> >It's so the dough boy can find their oven door. So to speak. :)
> >
>
> Hey why beat around the bush..
>
> To find the wet spot - ta dum!
> -mhd

lol

November 22nd 05, 02:04 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> No, not quite. I was sitting in my truck with a nice hot thermos full of
> coffee about 100' from the trap. I could just about see it but I could
> clearly hear it spring. Usually I don't park that far away- but it was
> winter and I was running the heater when it got cold in the truck.

Um, yeah. Riiight. The only guillable morons who believe that would
be cyber**** and any other butt-sniffers who currently follow you
around.

> You don't have to assume anything- I have an air card for my laptop- I have
> internet access from *anywhere*. Before I got the air card, I used my cell
> phone as a modem to connect. I need it for work- but it comes in handy on
> all-nighters. A little behind the times, aren't you?

Um hum. Sure you do. LOL...just admit it - you're busted being
holier-than-thou on something you have done yourself. You're an
idiot.

>
> Hey, you started it, slim. If you don't like the horns, don't **** with
> bull.

Bull**** is more like it, Teenie Weenie.
-L.

November 22nd 05, 02:07 AM
Rhonda wrote:
> Oh Boy, you are going to get lots of LOL's in all his future replies to
> you! You are in for it, haha.
>
> I rarely read his posts. I got very skeptical after the Viet Nam war
> buddy incident. Remember that? The buddy who just "happened" into the
> group, Phoenix Rising was his name. They talked for weeks about Viet Nam
> and what big men they were, on the group. For some reason just didn't
> want to email their big stories to each other... Turned me off forever.
>
> No amount of big-worded quotes from the many cat medical books on the
> shelf will make up for that. I have no doubt he likes and tries to help
> cats, but it doesn't appear that he knows much about people.
>
> Rhonda

Thankfully I missed that one.
<barf>

-L.

whitershadeofpale
November 22nd 05, 02:33 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> Actually, its a sign of amusement. Some people really make me laugh. 'Know
> what I mean? LOL
>
>
>
> and not a way to hold
> > up your side of the discussion.
>
> After a point, some discussions are no longer a discussion for me- its a
> joke-- so I laugh. 'Know what I mean? LOL

I don't mind your LOL's, I take it you're in a good mood.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:26 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > No, not quite. I was sitting in my truck with a nice hot thermos full
of
> > coffee about 100' from the trap. I could just about see it but I could
> > clearly hear it spring. Usually I don't park that far away- but it was
> > winter and I was running the heater when it got cold in the truck.
>
> Um, yeah. Riiight. The only guillable morons who believe that would
> be cyber**** and any other butt-sniffers who currently follow you
> around.
>
> > You don't have to assume anything- I have an air card for my laptop- I
have
> > internet access from *anywhere*. Before I got the air card, I used my
cell
> > phone as a modem to connect. I need it for work- but it comes in handy
on
> > all-nighters. A little behind the times, aren't you?
>
> Um hum. Sure you do. LOL...just admit it - you're busted being
> holier-than-thou on something you have done yourself. You're an
> idiot.
>
> >
> > Hey, you started it, slim. If you don't like the horns, don't **** with
> > bull.
>
> Bull**** is more like it, Teenie Weenie.

Heh. I knew you couldn't pull it off. You tried damned hard, since there
are so few people left who will actually reply to you.

Show of hands. How many people just knew Lyn would go psycho on
Phil?

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:27 AM
"whitershadeofpale" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > Actually, its a sign of amusement. Some people really make me laugh.
'Know
> > what I mean? LOL
> >
> >
> >
> > and not a way to hold
> > > up your side of the discussion.
> >
> > After a point, some discussions are no longer a discussion for me- its a
> > joke-- so I laugh. 'Know what I mean? LOL
>
> I don't mind your LOL's, I take it you're in a good mood.
>

Yep. Seems there might have been yet another smear campaign.

And the same old people fell for it.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:28 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Rhonda wrote:
> > Oh Boy, you are going to get lots of LOL's in all his future replies to
> > you! You are in for it, haha.
> >
> > I rarely read his posts. I got very skeptical after the Viet Nam war
> > buddy incident. Remember that? The buddy who just "happened" into the
> > group, Phoenix Rising was his name. They talked for weeks about Viet Nam
> > and what big men they were, on the group. For some reason just didn't
> > want to email their big stories to each other... Turned me off forever.
> >
> > No amount of big-worded quotes from the many cat medical books on the
> > shelf will make up for that. I have no doubt he likes and tries to help
> > cats, but it doesn't appear that he knows much about people.
> >
> > Rhonda
>
> Thankfully I missed that one.
> <barf>
>

Nine out of ten posts he makes help people. What is your excuse for
breathing?

-L.
November 22nd 05, 11:24 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Heh. I knew you couldn't pull it off.

Pull what off? Showing Phil is a boldface LIAR? Didn't have to - he
did that himself. Just like you, Piggy Whiner. :)

-L.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 11:30 AM
cybercat wrote:
> Nine out of ten posts he makes help people. What is your excuse for
> breathing?


Since you are so young, or so stupid, or so gullible, or so addicted to
sucking ass, or so whatever it is that makes you run after Phil like a
cheap whore after a $20 trick, let me give you some advice:

"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it.
Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe
nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just
because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because
someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge
to be true. "

- Buddha [paraphrased]

Nah, nevermind. Pearls to Swine.

Piggy-lovin' lying swine, that is...

-L.