PDA

View Full Version : CRF and omega-3 EPA supplements


5cats
November 12th 05, 05:16 PM
(my question is at the bottom of this post)

I found this abstract on PubMed of a recent study of diet for CRF cats --
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16100367&query_hl=8
or (same article) http://tinyurl.com/ac9wq

========
Retrospective study of the survival of cats with acquired chronic renal
insufficiency offered different commercial diets.

Plantinga EA, Everts H, Kastelein AM, Beynen AC.

Department of Nutrition, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht
University, The Netherlands.

A retrospective study was carried out on the efficacy of seven commercial
diets designed to be fed to cats with chronic renal failure. The median
survival time of 175 cats that received conventional diets was seven
months, whereas the median survival time of 146 cats given one of the
seven diets was 16 months. The cats on the most effective of the diets
had a median survival time of 23 months and those on the least effective
diet had a median survival time of 12 months. The composition of the
seven diets was comparable, except that the most effective diet had a
particularly high content of eicosapentaenoic acid.

PMID: 16100367 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
================

Does anyone here (Phil? Steve?) know just what level of EPA they used in
the study?

Phil P.
November 12th 05, 05:55 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> (my question is at the bottom of this post)
>
> I found this abstract on PubMed of a recent study of diet for CRF cats --
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
> cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16100367&query_hl=8
> or (same article) http://tinyurl.com/ac9wq
>
> ========
> Retrospective study of the survival of cats with acquired chronic renal
> insufficiency offered different commercial diets.
>
> Plantinga EA, Everts H, Kastelein AM, Beynen AC.
>
> Department of Nutrition, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht
> University, The Netherlands.
>
> A retrospective study was carried out on the efficacy of seven commercial
> diets designed to be fed to cats with chronic renal failure. The median
> survival time of 175 cats that received conventional diets was seven
> months, whereas the median survival time of 146 cats given one of the
> seven diets was 16 months. The cats on the most effective of the diets
> had a median survival time of 23 months and those on the least effective
> diet had a median survival time of 12 months. The composition of the
> seven diets was comparable, except that the most effective diet had a
> particularly high content of eicosapentaenoic acid.
>
> PMID: 16100367 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> ================
>
> Does anyone here (Phil? Steve?) know just what level of EPA they used in
> the study?

"the most effective of the diets" (median survival time of 23 months)
contained 125 mg EPA/100 kcal. (Hills k/d canned).

"and those on the least effective diet had a median survival time of 12
months."

Walthams low phosphorus/protein dry. None detected!

Send me you're email addy.

Phil

Steve Crane
November 12th 05, 06:14 PM
5cats wrote:
> (my question is at the bottom of this post)
> Does anyone here (Phil? Steve?) know just what level of EPA they used in
> the study?

Phil already gave you the EPA levels. One caution here, simply adding
EPA to any diet will not yield the same results. Beyond EPA levels,
phosphorus levels, potassium levels and a myriad of other nutrients
must be considered. While it is easily possible to add EPA to just
about anything - doing so will not yield the same results.

This is one area where Phil and I disagree. He believes k/d has
insufficient protein levels and recommends x/d or g/d. I disagree.
There is support for both positions in the literature. Grade 1 Evidence
Based Medicine clinical trials supports the use of k/d in CRF cats and
clearly shows extended life for cats on k/d.

5cats
November 12th 05, 06:22 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

>
> 5cats wrote:
>> (my question is at the bottom of this post)
>> Does anyone here (Phil? Steve?) know just what level of EPA they used
in
>> the study?
>
> Phil already gave you the EPA levels. One caution here, simply adding
> EPA to any diet will not yield the same results. Beyond EPA levels,
> phosphorus levels, potassium levels and a myriad of other nutrients
> must be considered. While it is easily possible to add EPA to just
> about anything - doing so will not yield the same results.
>
> This is one area where Phil and I disagree. He believes k/d has
> insufficient protein levels and recommends x/d or g/d. I disagree.
> There is support for both positions in the literature. Grade 1 Evidence
> Based Medicine clinical trials supports the use of k/d in CRF cats and
> clearly shows extended life for cats on k/d.
>
>

Thanks Steve. My cat is already eating k/d. Do you think there's any harm
in adding some EPA to what she's already getting in her diet?

5cats
November 12th 05, 06:51 PM
Phil P. wrote:

> "the most effective of the diets" (median survival time of 23 months)
> contained 125 mg EPA/100 kcal. (Hills k/d canned).
>

That's very good to know, she's on K/D now.

Email sent, Thanks!

5cats
November 13th 05, 12:40 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> "the most effective of the diets" (median survival time of 23 months)
> contained 125 mg EPA/100 kcal. (Hills k/d canned).
>
> "and those on the least effective diet had a median survival time of 12
> months."
>
> Walthams low phosphorus/protein dry. None detected!
>
> Send me you're email addy.
>
> Phil

Hi Phil,

I got your email, I hope you are getting my replies.

1. Looking at the Hills site, it looks like it's 125mg /100 kcal total
omega-3s in K/d, they don't list a specific number for EPA.

2. I read over what you sent and it seems like k/d didn't actually
produce the best results, rather Leo FKW did. Am I reading something
incorrectly?

thanks!
5cats

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 02:27 AM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> > "the most effective of the diets" (median survival time of 23 months)
> > contained 125 mg EPA/100 kcal. (Hills k/d canned).
> >
> > "and those on the least effective diet had a median survival time of 12
> > months."
> >
> > Walthams low phosphorus/protein dry. None detected!
> >
> > Send me you're email addy.
> >
> > Phil
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> I got your email, I hope you are getting my replies.

Yes I have.


>
> 1. Looking at the Hills site, it looks like it's 125mg /100 kcal total
> omega-3s in K/d, they don't list a specific number for EPA.


Look at Box 1 in the study- it lists the EPA content of the diets.



>
> 2. I read over what you sent and it seems like k/d didn't actually
> produce the best results, rather Leo FKW did. Am I reading something
> incorrectly?

You're right. I looked over the study again and saw the diets weren't listed
in order of efficacy as I thought.

I don't think Leo FKW is even available in the US.

Phil

5cats
November 13th 05, 03:21 AM
Phil P. wrote:

>>
>> 2. I read over what you sent and it seems like k/d didn't actually
>> produce the best results, rather Leo FKW did. Am I reading something
>> incorrectly?
>
> You're right. I looked over the study again and saw the diets weren't
> listed in order of efficacy as I thought.
>
> I don't think Leo FKW is even available in the US.
>

If my conversion is right, the EPA in Leo works out to about 197mg of EPA
/ 100 kcal.

My cat is eating somewhere around 200 kcal / day. So theoreticaly, she
might need about 400mg EPA a day, with 360mg being the amount in some of
the common human supplements. She'd gladly take more, she cleans the
plate when it's offered, I'm inclined to indulge her so long as there's
no evidence that's it's harmful.

(Some of the human studies for EPA/Omega-3 in other diseases were using
pretty high levels without apparant ill effect)

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 01:06 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> >>
> >> 2. I read over what you sent and it seems like k/d didn't actually
> >> produce the best results, rather Leo FKW did. Am I reading something
> >> incorrectly?
> >
> > You're right. I looked over the study again and saw the diets weren't
> > listed in order of efficacy as I thought.
> >
> > I don't think Leo FKW is even available in the US.
> >
>
> If my conversion is right, the EPA in Leo works out to about 197mg of EPA
> / 100 kcal.
>
> My cat is eating somewhere around 200 kcal / day. So theoreticaly, she
> might need about 400mg EPA a day, with 360mg being the amount in some of
> the common human supplements. She'd gladly take more, she cleans the
> plate when it's offered, I'm inclined to indulge her so long as there's
> no evidence that's it's harmful.

As a matter of fact, there is. There was a study in the Compendium for
Continuing Education
for the Practicing Veterinarian by Dr. Jean Hall:
Potential Adverse Effects of Long-Term Consumption of (n-3) Fatty Acids.

If you can't find it, I'll try to dig it out.

Steve Crane
November 13th 05, 03:53 PM
5cats wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:

> Thanks Steve. My cat is already eating k/d. Do you think there's any harm
> in adding some EPA to what she's already getting in her diet?

5cats,
Like anything in life - you can always add too much of a good
thing, even plain old water. Neither do I think you would cause great
harm as long as what you added was very judicisous. I always fear that
people will assume if 1 part of something is good that 2 parts or ten
parts must always be even better. I also doubt you would gain anything
by adding additional EPA.

Phil P.
November 13th 05, 04:29 PM
"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Steve. My cat is already eating k/d. Do you think there's any harm
> in adding some EPA to what she's already getting in her diet?

The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 is important, too- probably just as if not
more important than the actual amounts. Omega-3 supplementation could cause
partial omega-6 deficiency. Since the enzymatic conversion of omega-3's is
4 times faster than omega-6's, try to find a supplement with a 4 or 5:1
ratio of n-3 to n-6. You should probably add a little vitamin E, too, for
antioxidation of the additional EFAs- otherwise the diet's vitamin E will be
used and create a vitamin E deficiency.

Supplementing an already balanced diet is like pulling a loose string on a
blanket!

Phil

5cats
November 13th 05, 05:00 PM
Phil P. wrote:

>
> "5cats" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Phil P. wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> 2. I read over what you sent and it seems like k/d didn't actually
>> >> produce the best results, rather Leo FKW did. Am I reading
>> >> something incorrectly?
>> >
>> > You're right. I looked over the study again and saw the diets
>> > weren't listed in order of efficacy as I thought.
>> >
>> > I don't think Leo FKW is even available in the US.
>> >
>>
>> If my conversion is right, the EPA in Leo works out to about 197mg of
>> EPA / 100 kcal.
>>
>> My cat is eating somewhere around 200 kcal / day. So theoreticaly,
>> she might need about 400mg EPA a day, with 360mg being the amount in
>> some of the common human supplements. She'd gladly take more, she
>> cleans the plate when it's offered, I'm inclined to indulge her so
>> long as there's no evidence that's it's harmful.
>
> As a matter of fact, there is. There was a study in the Compendium for
> Continuing Education
> for the Practicing Veterinarian by Dr. Jean Hall:
> Potential Adverse Effects of Long-Term Consumption of (n-3) Fatty
> Acids.
>
> If you can't find it, I'll try to dig it out.
>

I found the abstract for that one and I'll add it to the other stuff I'll
print & give to the vet. She may have access to that one.

There's also "Manipulation of Dietary (n-6) and (n-3) Fatty Acids Alters
Platelet Function in Cats"(online) and I'm still looking for other
references.

Ah, why can't this stuff be simple? The thing is, the human studies for
omega-3, and EPA in particular, being useful in a variety of conditions
are so strong that I feel I have to continue digging.

Thanks so much for your help in researching this!

5cats
November 13th 05, 05:01 PM
Phil P. wrote:

>
> "5cats" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks Steve. My cat is already eating k/d. Do you think there's any
>> harm in adding some EPA to what she's already getting in her diet?
>
> The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 is important, too- probably just as if
> not more important than the actual amounts. Omega-3 supplementation
> could cause partial omega-6 deficiency. Since the enzymatic
> conversion of omega-3's is 4 times faster than omega-6's, try to find
> a supplement with a 4 or 5:1 ratio of n-3 to n-6. You should probably
> add a little vitamin E, too, for antioxidation of the additional EFAs-
> otherwise the diet's vitamin E will be used and create a vitamin E
> deficiency.
>
> Supplementing an already balanced diet is like pulling a loose string
> on a blanket!
>
> Phil
>

Yes, the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 is important and some of the human
studies are sugesting that the ratio of EPA to DHA and other fats is just
as important.

5cats
November 13th 05, 05:17 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

>
> 5cats wrote:
>> Steve Crane wrote:
>
>> Thanks Steve. My cat is already eating k/d. Do you think there's any
>> harm in adding some EPA to what she's already getting in her diet?
>
> 5cats,
> Like anything in life - you can always add too much of a good
> thing, even plain old water. Neither do I think you would cause great
> harm as long as what you added was very judicisous. I always fear that
> people will assume if 1 part of something is good that 2 parts or ten
> parts must always be even better. I also doubt you would gain
> anything by adding additional EPA.
>

Now that I've had a chance to read that dutch study more carefully, it's
really influencing me to supplement Pookie's diet (90% KD, 10% TD) with
the level of EPA that's in the Leo FKW. It's not that she hasn't done
well on K/D, because she has, her BUN and creatinine levels have been
stable. But she's also has (probable) allergy issues and that's what
first got me started looking at EFAs.

I decided to start taking Omega-3 supplements for my own allergies, it's
seems easier to make that decision for myself than it is to figure out
what's best for the cats.

Steve Crane
November 14th 05, 04:36 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> Supplementing an already balanced diet is like pulling a loose string on a
> blanket!
>
> Phil

Oooh - that's a terrific analogy - I may steal it from you down the
road somewhere.

5cats
November 14th 05, 11:11 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

> I also doubt you would gain anything
> by adding additional EPA.
>


Do you doubt the results of that Dutch study? I'm having trouble
disregarding the numbers I see there. 29.7 vs. 18.8 months. 11 months is a
big deal in the life of a cat.