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blkcatgal
November 20th 05, 03:54 PM
You may recall that I posted a message regarding my 16 year old cat that
began limping. He's still limping and I've scheduled an appt. for tomorrow
to have xrays taken (which is the only day this week the vet can do it
because of Thanksgiving this week). This makes me nervous enough because
the vet will have to sedate him and the last time my cat was sedated, it
took him 2 days to fully recover. Now the problem is that over the last
couple of days, my cat has thrown up 3 times and I'm not sure why. The
first time I thought it might be hairballs because there was a little fur
mixed in. But last night he threw up almost everything he ate that day.
And he really didn't feel like eating all day. I gave him pepcid ac and
some baby food last night. This morning he wanted to eat and ate pretty
well. No vomiting yet.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and have the xray taken tomorrow. Or
because of the vomiting episodes, should I wait (which means I would have to
wait until next week to do it). I thought I'd wait to see how he was today
and if he didn't vomit, go ahead with the appt. tomorrow.

Thanks.
Sue

November 20th 05, 04:12 PM
>This makes me nervous enough because
>the vet will have to sedate him

???? In all the years I've had cats in my life I have NEVER had to have
a cat sedated for an xray. We're talking about a leg right? If your vet
is unable to do a simple xray of a leg on an awake cat, that is beyond
ridiculous. Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly. Find another
vet.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Lumpy
November 20th 05, 04:28 PM
> wrote in message
...
> >This makes me nervous enough because
> >the vet will have to sedate him
>
> ???? In all the years I've had cats in my life I have NEVER had to have
> a cat sedated for an xray. We're talking about a leg right? If your vet
> is unable to do a simple xray of a leg on an awake cat, that is beyond
> ridiculous. Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
> all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly. Find another
> vet.
>

I agree. Hell, his leg could just be HELD still for the xray. Don't
do it. Get another vet.

Spot
November 20th 05, 04:33 PM
I agree with Megan that you need to find another vet.

You already know he doesn't do well with gas and with his age I would never
have him put under unless it was something life threatening it's just to
risky with his past.

Celeste


> wrote in message
...
> >This makes me nervous enough because
>>the vet will have to sedate him
>
> ???? In all the years I've had cats in my life I have NEVER had to have
> a cat sedated for an xray. We're talking about a leg right? If your vet
> is unable to do a simple xray of a leg on an awake cat, that is beyond
> ridiculous. Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
> all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly. Find another
> vet.
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing."
>
> -Edmund Burke
>
> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>
> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
> http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
>
> "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
> elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
> splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
> providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
> raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
> material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
> way."
>
> - W.H. Murray
>
>

MaryL
November 20th 05, 04:43 PM
> wrote in message
...
> >This makes me nervous enough because
>>the vet will have to sedate him
>
> ???? In all the years I've had cats in my life I have NEVER had to have
> a cat sedated for an xray. We're talking about a leg right? If your vet
> is unable to do a simple xray of a leg on an awake cat, that is beyond
> ridiculous. Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
> all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly. Find another
> vet.
>
> Megan
>
>
>
>

I agree. My cats have never been sedated for an X-Ray. If the cat is so
agitated that sedation is required then gas anesthesia is the way to go. We
recently had to use gas anesthesia for Holly so the vet could probe more
carefully into what looked like a minor cut on her paw (I think I described
it to you -- turned out to be more serious than expected and had an abscess,
which was successfully treated). She was alert and showed absolutely no
after-effects just a few minutes later.

MaryL

No More Retail
November 20th 05, 04:46 PM
Megan > , Lumpy and Spot hit it right on the nose
something is definitely wrong

DON'T let him sedate him Don't go back to this vet if he is going to force
the issue
Find another vet or take him to an animal hospital around here in Florida
they have their own x-ray machine. Animal hospital are open on Sunday's
may cost a little more

The only reason to sedate an animal for a x-ray is if the animal is
uncontrollable if this is true and the x-ray needs to be done and you can
handle the firball you may have to wear a lead apron and help out

If you do have to sedate him there is a shot that helps them recover quicker
I forgot the name of it it cost about $16. But putting an animal under over
the age of 12 has its' dangers

If you are worried about dehydration since he has been vomiting you can
give him some Gatorade

November 20th 05, 06:59 PM
blkcatgal wrote:
> You may recall that I posted a message regarding my 16 year old cat that
> began limping. He's still limping and I've scheduled an appt. for tomorrow
> to have xrays taken (which is the only day this week the vet can do it
> because of Thanksgiving this week). This makes me nervous enough because
> the vet will have to sedate him and the last time my cat was sedated, it
> took him 2 days to fully recover. Now the problem is that over the last

That's a bad sign. Did the vet use the expensive stuff or the cheap
stuff?

I can't remember but there's a gas that is some dollars more but much
safer than other methods of sedation.

Does your cat really need sedation or is the vet just adding on extras
to the bill?

Two days to recover means your vet used the wrong amount of anesthetic.
This is a warning sign in addition to the sedation in the first place.
Does he have assistants to help him who are competent?

blkcatgal
November 20th 05, 07:08 PM
It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my vet
doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
completely still.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> blkcatgal wrote:
>> You may recall that I posted a message regarding my 16 year old cat that
>> began limping. He's still limping and I've scheduled an appt. for
>> tomorrow
>> to have xrays taken (which is the only day this week the vet can do it
>> because of Thanksgiving this week). This makes me nervous enough because
>> the vet will have to sedate him and the last time my cat was sedated, it
>> took him 2 days to fully recover. Now the problem is that over the last
>
> That's a bad sign. Did the vet use the expensive stuff or the cheap
> stuff?
>
> I can't remember but there's a gas that is some dollars more but much
> safer than other methods of sedation.
>
> Does your cat really need sedation or is the vet just adding on extras
> to the bill?
>
> Two days to recover means your vet used the wrong amount of anesthetic.
> This is a warning sign in addition to the sedation in the first place.
> Does he have assistants to help him who are competent?
>

Lumpy
November 20th 05, 07:38 PM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
...
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.
>

It still does not sound right.

November 20th 05, 07:54 PM
blkcatgal wrote:
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.

There's a very fine line between sedation and anesthesia. Was your cat
just semi-conscious or unconscious at any time? Was she knocked out? If
so, she was anesthetized although technically you could say sedated.

For example, ketamine can be used for both, depending on the amount.
It's also used in street drugs. So a wide range from anesthesia for
people and animals to getting knocked out ot just getting "high."

I'll give you a for instance. Fentanyl is a narcotic that is
technically not an anesthetic. So it can be given by a nurse for
"conscious sedation" [whatever the hell that means in hospital
double-talk]. But the effect is exactly the same as an anesthetic. It
knocks you out 100%. But a powerful anesthetic defined as such can only
be given by an anesthesiologist but that knocks you out quicker than
fentanyl and brings you back quicker so in some ways it is safer. The
effect is the same. The anesthetic is a tad safer because it's quicker.
But to me, they both act in seconds and I mean seconds.

In any event, if you trust this vet and think he's okay, did he run any
tests on your cat to see why it took 2 days to come out of anesthesia?
When my cat was spayed it took her a day to shake off the anesthetic
but she was a tiny cat. Did he test her for an allergic response to the
sedative? If not, why not? Well, this time around he should. And he
should use a smaller dose and increase it later if necessary just to be
on the safe side.

A gas can also be a sedative, like laughing gas or nitrous oxide? So
I'm not sure at all how anesthetics differs from sedatives. It seems
that some, like narcotics, can easily be both. Not all drugs can do
both but many can.

I would hazard a will guess that he used ketamine.

You're right about holding an animal still and he may be worried about
x-rays. Safer to knock out the animal and not be around the x-rays.

I don't know but you sound as though you are cautious and concerned.
Good luck.

blkcatgal
November 20th 05, 09:01 PM
I think he was knocked out....and yes, it was probably ketamine that was
used. It wasn't that he was knocked out for 2 days.....he woke up
fine....he just seemed out of sorts and not his usual self for 2 days. I
asked why and was told that some cats are affected differently and some take
longer to be their normal selves.

I just wonder if it's worth delaying the xray for a week so that I can talk
to my vet about it (as I said, tomorrow was the only day this week that my
vet could do the xray).

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> blkcatgal wrote:
>> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
>> vet
>> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that
>> in
>> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
>> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
>> completely still.
>
> There's a very fine line between sedation and anesthesia. Was your cat
> just semi-conscious or unconscious at any time? Was she knocked out? If
> so, she was anesthetized although technically you could say sedated.
>
> For example, ketamine can be used for both, depending on the amount.
> It's also used in street drugs. So a wide range from anesthesia for
> people and animals to getting knocked out ot just getting "high."
>
> I'll give you a for instance. Fentanyl is a narcotic that is
> technically not an anesthetic. So it can be given by a nurse for
> "conscious sedation" [whatever the hell that means in hospital
> double-talk]. But the effect is exactly the same as an anesthetic. It
> knocks you out 100%. But a powerful anesthetic defined as such can only
> be given by an anesthesiologist but that knocks you out quicker than
> fentanyl and brings you back quicker so in some ways it is safer. The
> effect is the same. The anesthetic is a tad safer because it's quicker.
> But to me, they both act in seconds and I mean seconds.
>
> In any event, if you trust this vet and think he's okay, did he run any
> tests on your cat to see why it took 2 days to come out of anesthesia?
> When my cat was spayed it took her a day to shake off the anesthetic
> but she was a tiny cat. Did he test her for an allergic response to the
> sedative? If not, why not? Well, this time around he should. And he
> should use a smaller dose and increase it later if necessary just to be
> on the safe side.
>
> A gas can also be a sedative, like laughing gas or nitrous oxide? So
> I'm not sure at all how anesthetics differs from sedatives. It seems
> that some, like narcotics, can easily be both. Not all drugs can do
> both but many can.
>
> I would hazard a will guess that he used ketamine.
>
> You're right about holding an animal still and he may be worried about
> x-rays. Safer to knock out the animal and not be around the x-rays.
>
> I don't know but you sound as though you are cautious and concerned.
> Good luck.
>

Karen
November 20th 05, 09:32 PM
On 2005-11-20 10:43:01 -0600, "MaryL"
-OUT-THE-LITTER> said:

>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>>> This makes me nervous enough because
>>> the vet will have to sedate him
>>
>> ???? In all the years I've had cats in my life I have NEVER had to have
>> a cat sedated for an xray. We're talking about a leg right? If your vet
>> is unable to do a simple xray of a leg on an awake cat, that is beyond
>> ridiculous. Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
>> all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly. Find another
>> vet.
>>
>> Megan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> I agree. My cats have never been sedated for an X-Ray. If the cat is
> so agitated that sedation is required then gas anesthesia is the way to
> go. We recently had to use gas anesthesia for Holly so the vet could
> probe more carefully into what looked like a minor cut on her paw (I
> think I described it to you -- turned out to be more serious than
> expected and had an abscess, which was successfully treated). She was
> alert and showed absolutely no after-effects just a few minutes later.
>
> MaryL

I even have a very testy cat that did not need to be sedated for xrays.
I agree with going to a different vet.

Willow
November 20th 05, 09:43 PM
The vet I work for didn't have to put Gaya to sleep to X-ray her.. now we're
talking a very agressive cat (she bit anything that moved everytime she went
in that office *blush*.. like thanks a lot for biting my boss!!!!)
She gave her only a relaxant (don't know the correct english term, but it
just mellowed her out did not put her to sleep) and hat was enough..
Ok it didn't mellow her all that much, it's Gaya we're talking about, but I
was the one holding her, so it went kinda ok *look at the scar on my thumb*
well kinda being the key word...

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
...
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.
>
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > blkcatgal wrote:
> >> You may recall that I posted a message regarding my 16 year old cat
that
> >> began limping. He's still limping and I've scheduled an appt. for
> >> tomorrow
> >> to have xrays taken (which is the only day this week the vet can do it
> >> because of Thanksgiving this week). This makes me nervous enough
because
> >> the vet will have to sedate him and the last time my cat was sedated,
it
> >> took him 2 days to fully recover. Now the problem is that over the
last
> >
> > That's a bad sign. Did the vet use the expensive stuff or the cheap
> > stuff?
> >
> > I can't remember but there's a gas that is some dollars more but much
> > safer than other methods of sedation.
> >
> > Does your cat really need sedation or is the vet just adding on extras
> > to the bill?
> >
> > Two days to recover means your vet used the wrong amount of anesthetic.
> > This is a warning sign in addition to the sedation in the first place.
> > Does he have assistants to help him who are competent?
> >
>
>

November 20th 05, 10:51 PM
wrote:
> You're right about holding an animal still and he may be worried about
> x-rays. Safer to knock out the animal and not be around the x-rays.

Ketamine is cheaper and easier to use and does not require expensive
equipment to administer.

Isoflurane is the safest and more expensive. Since it's a gas there is
much more money involved in the equipment he has to purchase to use the
gas. And it's probably a little more labor intensive than a shot of
ketamine.

Can he test for safety? I believe that sensitivity tests can be done.

On the internet, Isoflurane is the drug of choice of knocking out
felines and birds and dogs.

Now I did not mean your cat was out for 2 days, I only meant that the
drug continued to act for 2 days. A well-administered knock-out drug
wears off completely in a very short time, from minutes to a few hours
at most. That's the optimal situation.

2 days with being a little out of it sounds as though your cat is
either sensitive to the ketamine or too much was used.

As you search the internet, it appears that Isoflurane is the safest
for all the animals, even those who are high risk.


http://www.bsdrescue.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=41

ISOFLURANE

This gas anesthetic is commonly used today, and although it is
expensive, its wide margin of safety compared to the older Metophane
and Halothane, make it the drug of choice for most patients. Because
99% of Isoflurane leaves the body through breathing, animals begin to
wake up almost as soon as the gas is turned off. Isoflurane doesn't
depress the heart and doesn't have to be stored in the fat or processed
by the liver or kidneys.

Geriatric or ill patients can be masked down with Isoflurane in
minutes, then intubated and maintained on Iso during surgery. Animals
usually begin to wake in 1-2 minutes once the isoflurane is turned off.
It may be difficult to find a mask that fits the long, pointy Belgian
face! [must be about dogs then]

KETAMINE (KETASET)

Ketamine has a wide margin of safety when used for anesthesia. Given
along with Valium, Ketamine gives a quick, smooth induction in about 1
minute. Ketamine does not depress the heart rate, and while some
animals seem to hold their breath, their oxygen levels usually remain
adequate.

KETAMINE SHOULD NOT BE USED IN EPILEPTIC DOGS.

Rough recoveries with thrashing and screaming can sometimes be a
problem with Ketamine, so patients should be carefully monitored. This
excitement generally lasts only a few minutes. Recovery from Ketamine
and Valium anesthesia usually occurs in 2-6 hours in young, healthy
animals.

KETAMINE(Xylazine) Rompun is a potent sedative and muscle relaxer. It
is also associated with a "higher incidence of anesthetic complications
and death than any other commonly used preanesthetic" (1) It is often
combined with Ketamine for general anesthesia.

The advantage to Rompun is that it can be given in the muscle, and
occasionally, a patient is so intractable that hitting a vein or
masking down is not an option. Also, the drug Yohimbine can be given to
reverse the effects of Rompun.

Rompun slows the heart and may cause irregular heartbeats and low blood
pressure. It may cause greatly depressed breathing, gastric bloating,
vomiting, prolonged deep sleep. This drug should not be used in dogs
with heart, lung, liver or kidney problems, and I have serious
reservations about its use in any patient.

So it would seem that ketamine has more problems than Isoflurane.

Discussing this with your vet seems a good choice especially since your
cat was under the weather for 2 days after the incident. That should
not be for people or animals because it shows potential problems.
Isoflurane has quick recovery. Ketamine should be worn after about 2 to
6 hours in the info above.

Don't mean to butt in but some just things to consider.

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 11:01 PM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
...
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.

That's absolutely correct. Unreadable x-rays require repeated x-rays and
each successive attempt increases the cat's stress levels to the point where
getting a useful x-ray without sedation will be impossible. If you have a
fractious cat, mild sedation is probably necessary and would make the
procedure
much less stressful for him and would allow the vet to get clear and useful
x-rays.

However, for such a brief procedure, I would insist on only a rapid acting,
ultra-short acting, non-cumulative, non-barbiturate agent such as Propofol.
Complete recovery in cats takes less than 10 minutes- usually about 5
minutes for mild sedation. We use Propofol all the time as a pre-induction
agent and have never had any adverse effects in cats. The only problem with
Propofol is that once the vial is opened, what ever drug that is not used
must be thrown away because it doesn't contain any preservatives. So your
vet will most likely charge you for the entire vial- about $65+.

The most important question is, do *you* think your cat is so difficult to
handle that he
needs to be sedated? We rarely need to sedate a cat- other than ferals- for
x-rays. If you don't feel its necessary, I'd get a second opinion.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 11:03 PM
> wrote in message
...
> >This makes me nervous enough because
> >the vet will have to sedate him


> Even if they did, giving the cat a little gas anesthesia is
> all that is needed and they recover from that very quickly.

You don't know what you're talking about. Isoflurane smells *very bad* and
used alone the smell is *very* stressful for a cat- much too stressful for
an older
cat that might have undiagnosed heart disease and could cause the cat to
decompensate.

November 20th 05, 11:24 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> However, for such a brief procedure, I would insist on only a rapid acting,
> ultra-short acting, non-cumulative, non-barbiturate agent such as Propofol.
> Complete recovery in cats takes less than 10 minutes- usually about 5
> minutes for mild sedation. We use Propofol all the time as a pre-induction
> agent and have never had any adverse effects in cats. The only problem with
> Propofol is that once the vial is opened, what ever drug that is not used
> must be thrown away because it doesn't contain any preservatives. So your
> vet will most likely charge you for the entire vial- about $65+.

propofol or profofol [have seen both spellings] (Diprivan) is a
full-bore anesthetic when used with humans and can only be administered
by an anesthesiologist or some such but i agree completely that the
current drug of choice using the needle. extremely quick acting and
quick recovery time. but if all the bottle must be used, then more
expensive than Isoflurane? but that requires much more delivery
equipment than a hypodermic needle since it's a gast.

when you use propofol, what do you monitor, heartbeat via ecg/ekg,
oxygen uptake, some sort of capnograph for oxygen saturation? that's
about all that's needed or what more?

is it safer than Isoflurane or just a lot less hassle than the gas and
equipment so much cheaper than having to bother gas administering
equipment and much simpler to administer, especially if having to do
several felines at the same time, probably too expensive to buy
multiple sets of gas administering equipment.

>
> The most important question is, do *you* think your cat is so difficult to
> handle that he
> needs to be sedated? We rarely need to sedate a cat- other than ferals- for
> x-rays. If you don't feel its necessary, I'd get a second opinion.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil

who holds the cat steady for the x-ray? could that be the problem? vet
not wanting to get exposed too often? that's certainly a consideration
especially if his equipment is not the newer types that use much less
radiation. i think the digital x-rays are more efficient in this
regard, are they not?

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 11:35 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...

> propofol or profofol [have seen both spellings] (Diprivan) is a


Yes, I know what Propofol is. Thanks.


> is it safer than Isoflurane

Its usually used as a pre-induction agent before Iso. Its very short acting
so it can be used for short procedures such as x-rays or dental exams in
fractious cats.

blkcatgal
November 20th 05, 11:44 PM
Well, this cat can be difficult sometimes (I have scars to prove it). And I
think my vet sedates for x-rays as precaution...to make sure to get a good,
readable x-ray. I really am in a quandry here. I can ask about the
sedative you mentioned (I really don't care about the cost) but I am suppose
to drop my cat off first thing in the morning and I'm not sure if I will
have an oppportunity to talk with my vet then. I could just cancel...but
then I may have to wait a week before having the x-ray done.

My cat is still limping, however, today it didn't seem quite as pronounced.
And he ran across the yard today. Would a cat that had something seriously
wrong with it do that???

"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "blkcatgal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
> vet
>> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that
>> in
>> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
>> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
>> completely still.
>
> That's absolutely correct. Unreadable x-rays require repeated x-rays and
> each successive attempt increases the cat's stress levels to the point
> where
> getting a useful x-ray without sedation will be impossible. If you have a
> fractious cat, mild sedation is probably necessary and would make the
> procedure
> much less stressful for him and would allow the vet to get clear and
> useful
> x-rays.
>
> However, for such a brief procedure, I would insist on only a rapid
> acting,
> ultra-short acting, non-cumulative, non-barbiturate agent such as
> Propofol.
> Complete recovery in cats takes less than 10 minutes- usually about 5
> minutes for mild sedation. We use Propofol all the time as a pre-induction
> agent and have never had any adverse effects in cats. The only problem
> with
> Propofol is that once the vial is opened, what ever drug that is not used
> must be thrown away because it doesn't contain any preservatives. So your
> vet will most likely charge you for the entire vial- about $65+.
>
> The most important question is, do *you* think your cat is so difficult to
> handle that he
> needs to be sedated? We rarely need to sedate a cat- other than ferals-
> for
> x-rays. If you don't feel its necessary, I'd get a second opinion.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>

No More Retail
November 20th 05, 11:55 PM
You forgot to mention the cat is a handful now we understand why the vet
sedates the cat.

Call the vet; there has to be some one there to open, before you go to see
if there is an alternative to the shot sedation. And make sure you explain
why you are asking tell the vet what happens to the firball. As some of the
others said it sounds like too much sedation or an allergic reaction to the
sedation. The cat is old so you want to be as cautious as possible


If not ask if the vet can recommend a place where there is an option. If
the vet hesitates find another vet.

Do you have an animal hospital nearby that might be able to do the xray and
you can drop it off at your vet's

Phil P.
November 20th 05, 11:56 PM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in message
...
> Well, this cat can be difficult sometimes (I have scars to prove it). And
I
> think my vet sedates for x-rays as precaution...to make sure to get a
good,
> readable x-ray.


If he routinely sedates cats for x-rays, I would find another vet. I don't
think its a good policy. With an assistant, he should be able to x-ray the
vast majority or cats without sedation- my vet manages.


I really am in a quandry here. I can ask about the
> sedative you mentioned (I really don't care about the cost) but I am
suppose
> to drop my cat off first thing in the morning and I'm not sure if I will
> have an oppportunity to talk with my vet then. I could just cancel...but
> then I may have to wait a week before having the x-ray done.


Are there any other vets in your area with whom you can get an early
appointment?


>
> My cat is still limping, however, today it didn't seem quite as
pronounced.
> And he ran across the yard today. Would a cat that had something
seriously
> wrong with it do that???

Cats are infamous for masking pain- its instinct. Since he's been limping
for about week, I wouldn't wait to get him x-rayed- but I also wouldn't rush
off to a vet that routinely sedates cats. Tough call, Sue. I think I'd go
for a second opinion.

Good luck,

Phil

November 20th 05, 11:58 PM
blkcatgal wrote:
> Well, this cat can be difficult sometimes (I have scars to prove it). And I
> think my vet sedates for x-rays as precaution...to make sure to get a good,
> readable x-ray. I really am in a quandry here. I can ask about the
> sedative you mentioned (I really don't care about the cost) but I am suppose
> to drop my cat off first thing in the morning and I'm not sure if I will
> have an oppportunity to talk with my vet then. I could just cancel...but
> then I may have to wait a week before having the x-ray done.
>
> My cat is still limping, however, today it didn't seem quite as pronounced.
> And he ran across the yard today. Would a cat that had something seriously
> wrong with it do that???

Nope. Unlikely. If a broken bone or ligament, impossible. Sounds like
the fellow is on the mend. I'm not a vet but from what I have seen of
injuries in general, nobody runs across anything who is seriously
injured. Give your buddy some TLC and that will buy you time to talk to
the vet about the questions we all raised here. Offhand, this no longer
sounds like an emergency - unless his running does some damage but cats
are pretty clever about their bodies.

November 20th 05, 11:59 PM
Phil wrote:
>You don't know what you're talking
>about. Isoflurane smells *very bad* and
>used alone the smell is *very* stressful for
>a cat-

Not necessarily. I've done this with ferals many, many times over the
years (with several different vets) and have been present for every
procedure, including with my 10 year old feral Stella just a few months
ago as she has to be put under just to be examined. The cats were boxed
down and in every instance the cats, once in the confines of the box,
were quiet, calm and fell asleep quickly. I'll choose the cat dealing
with something that doesn't smell great for the very short time it takes
for them to fall asleep over a sedative that may have an adverse effect
for days, which is exactly what happened to the OP's cat.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

5cats
November 21st 05, 12:31 AM
blkcatgal wrote:

> Well, this cat can be difficult sometimes (I have scars to prove it).
> And I think my vet sedates for x-rays as precaution...to make sure to
> get a good, readable x-ray. I really am in a quandry here. I can ask
> about the sedative you mentioned (I really don't care about the cost)
> but I am suppose to drop my cat off first thing in the morning and I'm
> not sure if I will have an oppportunity to talk with my vet then. I
> could just cancel...but then I may have to wait a week before having
> the x-ray done.
>
> My cat is still limping, however, today it didn't seem quite as
> pronounced. And he ran across the yard today. Would a cat that had
> something seriously wrong with it do that???
>

What about the vomiting you mentioned in your first message? has that
continued?

BTW, 3 of my cats have had x-rays done at some point and none needed to
be sedated.

blkcatgal
November 21st 05, 01:19 AM
No, he hasn't vomited in over 24 hours. And he ate pretty good today.

"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> blkcatgal wrote:
>
>> Well, this cat can be difficult sometimes (I have scars to prove it).
>> And I think my vet sedates for x-rays as precaution...to make sure to
>> get a good, readable x-ray. I really am in a quandry here. I can ask
>> about the sedative you mentioned (I really don't care about the cost)
>> but I am suppose to drop my cat off first thing in the morning and I'm
>> not sure if I will have an oppportunity to talk with my vet then. I
>> could just cancel...but then I may have to wait a week before having
>> the x-ray done.
>>
>> My cat is still limping, however, today it didn't seem quite as
>> pronounced. And he ran across the yard today. Would a cat that had
>> something seriously wrong with it do that???
>>
>
> What about the vomiting you mentioned in your first message? has that
> continued?
>
> BTW, 3 of my cats have had x-rays done at some point and none needed to
> be sedated.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 01:27 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> >You don't know what you're talking
> >about. Isoflurane smells *very bad* and
> >used alone the smell is *very* stressful for
> >a cat-
>
> Not necessarily. I've done this with ferals many, many times over the
> years (with several different vets) and have been present for every
> procedure, including with my 10 year old feral Stella just a few months
> ago as she has to be put under just to be examined. The cats were boxed
> down and in every instance the cats, once in the confines of the box,
> were quiet, calm and fell asleep quickly.


Bull****. I don't believe you ever saw a cat anesthetized in an induction
chamber- and especially without a sedative or pre-induction agent. Alert
cats freak out in an induction chamber with Iso without sedation. You can't
bull**** me.


I'll choose the cat dealing
> with something that doesn't smell great for the very short time it takes
> for them to fall asleep over a sedative that may have an adverse effect
> for days, which is exactly what happened to the OP's cat.

Its clearly obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. I see
you've never heard of ultra-short acting sedatives and induction agents for
brief procedures such as x-rays and CTs or dental exams-- or does your vet
normally do dental exams without sedation, too? Cats fully recover from
short-acting sedatives in less than 10 minutes.


Let me refresh you're memory with a discussion that took place in this
newsgroup about this very issue a few years ago with Doctor J Martin - I'm
sure you remember him:

From: J. Martin )
Subject: Anesthesia in cats


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Date: 2001-09-09 07:09:01 PST

"I have read countless times in this newsgroup that the ideal anesthesia in
cats is isoflurane only. When the topic of anesthesia is brought up people
are encouraged to request their cats be anesthetized with nothing but
isoflurane. This has bugged me for a long time so I've decided to comment
on it.

Isoflurane only anesthesia involves placing a completely alert cat in a gas
box and running isoflurane gas at maximum concentration for about 5 minutes
until the cat is unconscious, then the cat is intubated and surgery begins.
Isoflurane smells very bad and this procedure is extremely stressful for the
cat. Its not uncommon for the terrified cats to flail around inside the
small box trying to escape the noxious fumes. Not only is this disturbing
to witness, it places the cat at risk of self inflicted trauma. It is this
kind of prolonged intense stress that can cause a cat with asymptomatic
heart disease to decompensate and go into heart failure. Isoflurane is a
very safe anesthetic at regular concentrations but the high concentrations
used for tank inductions can cause profound, life threatening hypotension
(low blood pressure). Being in a sealed box the cat cannot be monitored
closely enough during this critical period."

Save your bull**** stories for people that don't know any better, huh.

November 21st 05, 01:57 AM
Phil wrote:

>Bull****. I don't believe you ever saw a
>cat anesthetized in an induction chamber-
>and especially without a sedative or
>pre-induction agent. Alert cats freak out in
>an induction chamber with Iso without
>sedation. You can't bull**** me.

I'm not and speak the truth. Since I am the one at the vet office with
the most experience handling ferals and because of liability, I take the
responsibility for getting the cat into the chamber. As I stated before,
I have done it many times over the years and have been present for the
entire exam. I have NEVER had a cat freak out in the chamber and things
have always and without exception gone very smoothly. You can cry and
whine bull**** all you want, Phil, but you weren't there at any of these
events. I was, as was the vet and techs. If you want to claim I'm lying
it doesn't make it so, and only makes it clear that you have no clue.

Megan.



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 02:37 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
>
> >Bull****. I don't believe you ever saw a
> >cat anesthetized in an induction chamber-
> >and especially without a sedative or
> >pre-induction agent. Alert cats freak out in
> >an induction chamber with Iso without
> >sedation. You can't bull**** me.
>

I have NEVER had a cat freak out in the chamber and things
> have always and without exception gone very smoothly.


You can say anything you please. I didn't have to be there to know that's
not true. I *know* how cats react to Iso in an induction chamber if they're
not sedated- I've seen it enough times. That's why we don't do it- even
though it would be easier for us. Even a masking down an alert cat with Iso
is very stressful for them because the smell is so bad. You clearly don't
know what you're talking about.

PawsForThought
November 21st 05, 02:41 AM
Phil P. wrote:
I *know* how cats react to Iso in an induction chamber if they're
> not sedated- I've seen it enough times. That's why we don't do it- even
> though it would be easier for us. Even a masking down an alert cat with Iso
> is very stressful for them because the smell is so bad. You clearly don't
> know what you're talking about.

Phil, what do you use for sedation before the Iso?

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 02:46 AM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> I *know* how cats react to Iso in an induction chamber if they're
> > not sedated- I've seen it enough times. That's why we don't do it- even
> > though it would be easier for us. Even a masking down an alert cat with
Iso
> > is very stressful for them because the smell is so bad. You clearly
don't
> > know what you're talking about.
>
> Phil, what do you use for sedation before the Iso?


Propofol or thiopental- depends on which vet is administering the
anesthetic.

PawsForThought
November 21st 05, 02:56 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
> > Phil, what do you use for sedation before the Iso?
>
>
> Propofol or thiopental- depends on which vet is administering the
> anesthetic.

Thanks, Phil, I saw further down in the thread where you talked about
it. I'm making a note of it for the next time one of my cats needs Iso
so I can ask my vet about it. I do remember when Dr. Martin posted
last year about the induction box and how stressful it is to cats.
Having an asthmatic cat, I really don't want to cause her any more
stress than absolutely necessary.

Lauren

PawsForThought
November 21st 05, 03:02 AM
blkcatgal wrote:
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.

Is it Ketamine that your vet is giving your cat? That stuff is bad
news in my experience. Since you said your cat took 2 days to fully
recover, I would suspect it was something like Ketamine.

November 21st 05, 03:07 AM
Phil wrote:
<snip bull**** argument>
I know exactly what I am talking about and stand by what I said. Your
lie doesn't change the facts.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 03:21 AM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
> > > Phil, what do you use for sedation before the Iso?
> >
> >
> > Propofol or thiopental- depends on which vet is administering the
> > anesthetic.
>
> Thanks, Phil, I saw further down in the thread where you talked about
> it. I'm making a note of it for the next time one of my cats needs Iso
> so I can ask my vet about it.


Actually, the safest anesthetic is the one your vet is the most familiar
with. I wouldn't want a vet to learn a new anesthetic on my cats! I'd
rather use a vet that uses an anesthetic protocol that I'm comfortable with
than tell a vet what to use.



I do remember when Dr. Martin posted
> last year about the induction box and how stressful it is to cats.


He was absolutely right. After I saw a few cats bounce off the walls of the
induction chamber, I never allowed it again without premedication.


> Having an asthmatic cat, I really don't want to cause her any more
> stress than absolutely necessary.

Have you tried inhaled Flovent (steroid)? Much less systemic effects.

Phil

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 03:23 AM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> blkcatgal wrote:
> > It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
vet
> > doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that
in
> > order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as
possible.
> > Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> > completely still.
>
> Is it Ketamine that your vet is giving your cat? That stuff is bad
> news in my experience. Since you said your cat took 2 days to fully
> recover, I would suspect it was something like Ketamine.

Ketamine is nasty stuff. A lot of vets swear by it because its so cheap.
Its also the anesthetic most vets were taught in school. The cat's eyes
remain open while they're under (scary sight) so their eyes must be
lubricated and protected. Recovery is awful- the cats stumble around for
hours. Its must be a horrible experience for them because they don't
understand what's wrong. Very disturbing to watch.

The only recovery precaution you have to take with Iso after surgery is to
make sure the cat receives pain medication because the recovery is so rapid.
Otherwise, the cat will wake up in pain.

Phil

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 03:26 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> <snip bull**** argument>
> I know exactly what I am talking about and stand by what I said. Your
> lie doesn't change the facts.


Yeah, Doc J was lying too, eh?

The cats were probably premedicated and you didn't even know. *If* your
story is true, that's the *only* explanation for the ease of induction.

November 21st 05, 04:34 AM
Phil wrote:
>Yeah, Doc J was lying too, eh?

He said it was not uncommon. You do realize that "not uncommon" means
that it doesn't happen every time, and he didn't say it did.

>The cats were probably premedicated
>and you didn't even know. *If* your story
>is true, that's the *only* explanation for
>the ease of induction.

It is not the only explanation, and these cats were never premedicated.
I took them directly from the carrier and put them into the box. There
were no injections of any kind administered at any time beforehand and I
would know as I was present the entire time specifically because these
cats are feral and I am the one that knows best how to handle them.

It's hard enough getting a feral that hates being touched out of a
carrier and into the chamber without trying to give it a shot as well.
That may account for why they don't freak out once in the chamber. It
could be they are just relieved to not have someone touching them and
feel safe in the small space, especially after being put in a carrier at
home, enduring a car ride, and then being removed from the carrier that
they now don't want to come out of. All that is a lot more stressful
than the minute it takes in a chamber before they go to sleep.
Regardless, I have never had a cat freak out in the chamber and things
have always gone smoothly.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

-L.
November 21st 05, 05:10 AM
blkcatgal wrote:
> I think he was knocked out....and yes, it was probably ketamine that was
> used. It wasn't that he was knocked out for 2 days.....he woke up
> fine....he just seemed out of sorts and not his usual self for 2 days. I
> asked why and was told that some cats are affected differently and some take
> longer to be their normal selves.

It was probably a ketamine/acepromazine/atropine mix. That can knock a
cat down for awhile, especially if the cat has compromised liver and
kidney function. It's sort of antiquated protocol now, though. Did
your vet do bloodwork to check for organ function?

>
> I just wonder if it's worth delaying the xray for a week so that I can talk
> to my vet about it (as I said, tomorrow was the only day this week that my
> vet could do the xray).

I would. I would request a valium sedative, and if that's not enough,
top it off with isofluorane. Some cats simply cannot be restrained
well enough to get certain x-rays without some sort of sedative or
anesthesia.
-L.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 05:23 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Phil wrote:
> >Yeah, Doc J was lying too, eh?
>
> He said it was not uncommon. You do realize that "not uncommon" means
> that it doesn't happen every time, and he didn't say it did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you said "never"- meaning it "never" happened. Even
"sometimes" would have been a little more believable.

Its really funny how you stick to your bull**** story in the face of
incontrovertible fact to the contrary. The fact is, straight Iso in an
induction chamber without premedication is *very* stressful for a cat. I've
*seen* alert cats' reaction to Iso in a box, so I *know* you're lying.

Care to revise your bull**** story?

-L.
November 21st 05, 05:38 AM
wrote:
>
> It is not the only explanation, and these cats were never premedicated.
> I took them directly from the carrier and put them into the box. There
> were no injections of any kind administered at any time beforehand and I
> would know as I was present the entire time specifically because these
> cats are feral and I am the one that knows best how to handle them.
>
> It's hard enough getting a feral that hates being touched out of a
> carrier and into the chamber without trying to give it a shot as well.
> That may account for why they don't freak out once in the chamber. It
> could be they are just relieved to not have someone touching them and
> feel safe in the small space, especially after being put in a carrier at
> home, enduring a car ride, and then being removed from the carrier that
> they now don't want to come out of. All that is a lot more stressful
> than the minute it takes in a chamber before they go to sleep.
> Regardless, I have never had a cat freak out in the chamber and things
> have always gone smoothly.
>

This is the procedure we used for my Peewee because he seizures on Ace
and at the time, our only other option was valium and valium was
useless for him. He never "freaked out" but would paw the air a couple
of times before he conked out. I have never seen a cat flail in an iso
chamber - there isn't much room to move, and I think the worst reaction
I have seen is meowing/pawing. Some cats handle it better than others,
whether or not they received a presed.

Worst reaction I have ever seen anywhere was an ace/ket/atropine cat
that literally bounced off the walls. Why the hell anyone uses
ketamine anymore is beyond me. That stuff is just freakin nasty.

-L.

November 21st 05, 05:53 AM
>Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you said "never"-
>meaning it "never" happened. Even
>"sometimes" would have been a little
>more believable.

I would be lying if I said it happened "sometimes." For the zillionth
time I will reiterate that I have NEVER had a cat freak out in the
chamber.

>Its really funny how you stick to your
>bull**** story in the face of incontrovertible
>fact to the contrary.

Since you weren't present at any of the events, you have *no* facts.
None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

>The fact is, straight Iso in an induction
>chamber without premedication is *very*
>stressful for a cat. I've *seen* alert cats'
>reaction to Iso in a box, so I *know* you're
>lying.

You know nothing of the kind and your twisted logic and assertions are
laughable considering the *fact* that you weren't there.

>Care to revise your bull**** story?

That's a question you should be asking yourself.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 07:38 AM
> wrote in message
...
> >Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you said "never"-
> >meaning it "never" happened. Even
> >"sometimes" would have been a little
> >more believable.
>
> I would be lying if I said it happened "sometimes." For the zillionth
> time I will reiterate that I have NEVER had a cat freak out in the
> chamber.

You can reiterate all you want. Repeating the same thing over and over
doesn't make it true or believable. My first-hand experience and the
experience of several vets tell me otherwise. I tend to believe what I've
seen rather than what you say. So reiterate all you want- it means nothing.
The zillionth is no more believable than the first.

Btw, how does your vet monitor the cat during induction- which is the most
critical phase of anesthesia- while inside a sealed box, huh? Lets see you
conjure up a good answer for that one.

November 21st 05, 01:36 PM
blkcatgal wrote:
> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my vet
> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that in
> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
> completely still.

If it's ketamine, as you said in a different post, and that is the
cheap drug as other posters pointed out, are you still sure?

I don't with to impugn anything to your vet but as others have
suggested, routine sedation with ketamine is now a bit of a no-no. It's
probably quicker and uses fewer assistants but with a cat that is 16
years of age, that's dangerous. Especially dangerous if he forgot to
factor in that at that age you need much, much less anesthetic. I'm
guessing here but I usually read as a living creature ages, it needs
less drugs because the body is less efficient in eliminating that drug
from the blood.

Legally ketamine is cheap. It's only expensive when it's stolen from a
vet's office and sold illegally as a street drug. But that is not the
situation with your senior cat :)


> > wrote in message
> > That's a bad sign. Did the vet use the expensive stuff or the cheap
> > stuff?
> >
> > I can't remember but there's a gas that is some dollars more but much
> > safer than other methods of sedation.
> >
> > Does your cat really need sedation or is the vet just adding on extras
> > to the bill?

PawsForThought
November 21st 05, 01:43 PM
-L. wrote:
> Worst reaction I have ever seen anywhere was an ace/ket/atropine cat
> that literally bounced off the walls. Why the hell anyone uses
> ketamine anymore is beyond me. That stuff is just freakin nasty.

I had a cat that was a total basket case after receiving a drug similar
to Ketamine and for the life of me, I can't remember what it was
called. I think it started with a "T*. I know I'd remember if I heard
it though. Anyway, she hiss and growled for a couple of days, and you
could tell she was really hallucinating. I had my doubts she'd ever
come out of it, but fortunately she did.

Wendy
November 21st 05, 02:43 PM
"Lumpy" > wrote in message ...
>
> "blkcatgal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It's not anesthesia. It's only sedation...a shot, not gas. I'm sure my
> vet
>> doesn't use the cheap stuff. It's not to pad the bill. I've read that
>> in
>> order to get an accurate xray, the animal has to be as still as possible.
>> Sometimes just holding the animal down is not enough to keep the animal
>> completely still.
>>
>
> It still does not sound right.
>
>

My Tigger was never very cooperative at the vets office. Took 5 people to
get blood from her the last time she had that done and she was 18 and had
arthritis. She had x-rays taken a few times over the course of her life
without anesthesia. I think the last time she was in they said they would
have to anesthetize her to get the one angle they wanted because she just
wasn't cooperating AT ALL. I'm sure the vet wished he could have given her a
'chill pill' every time he saw her. She wasn't a very trusting kitty with
anyone that didn't live with her.

W

November 21st 05, 03:24 PM
Phil wrote:
>You can reiterate all you want.
>Repeating the same thing over and over
>doesn't make it true or believable. My
>first-hand experience and the experience
>of several vets tell me otherwise. I tend to
>believe what I've seen rather than what
>you say. So reiterate all you want- it
>means nothing. The zillionth is no more
>believable than the first.

The truth is the truth. Just because you, a known liar with a long
history of inventing
fabrications, manipulating facts and lying about your own actions (you
were just busted in another thread for doing exactly that, leaving traps
set unattended while you're at home posting to Usenet), claims it is not
doesn't make it so.

This is just another example of your desperate need to be right, even if
the facts and reality say otherwise. In fact, I see Lyn has now posted
and has had the same experience as I have, with the cat handling the
chamber just fine. If, as you "claim", every cat you've ever seen has
reacted badly and freaked out then it's more likely that you're doing
something wrong or handling the cat improperly.

>Btw, how does your vet monitor the cat
>during induction- which is the most critical
>phase of anesthesia- while inside a sealed
>box, huh? *

Induction chambers are clear. You put the cat in, turn the gas on, watch
the cat until it nods off and then take it out of the box and put a mask
on. If there is an issue while the cat is in the box you simply turn the
gas off and take the cat out, and the cat wakes up very quickly. You
yourself have said on numerous occasions how safe gas is. For example:
"If the cat has a "bad reaction" all the vet has to do is just.....turn
it off! *Iso's effects are quickly and easily reversed."

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

November 21st 05, 05:26 PM
wrote:

> Phil wrote:
> >You can reiterate all you want.
> >Repeating the same thing over and over
> >doesn't make it true or believable. My
> >first-hand experience and the experience
> >of several vets tell me otherwise. I tend to
> >believe what I've seen rather than what
> >you say. So reiterate all you want- it
> >means nothing. The zillionth is no more
> >believable than the first.


> This is just another example of your desperate need to be right, even if
> the facts and reality say otherwise. In fact, I see Lyn has now posted
> and has had the same experience as I have, with the cat handling the
> chamber just fine. If, as you "claim", every cat you've ever seen has
> reacted badly and freaked out then it's more likely that you're doing
> something wrong or handling the cat improperly.
>
> >Btw, how does your vet monitor the cat
> >during induction- which is the most critical
> >phase of anesthesia- while inside a sealed
> >box, huh?
>
> Induction chambers are clear. You put the cat in, turn the gas on, watch
> the cat until it nods off and then take it out of the box and put a mask
> on. If there is an issue while the cat is in the box you simply turn the
> gas off and take the cat out, and the cat wakes up very quickly. You
> yourself have said on numerous occasions how safe gas is. For example:
> "If the cat has a "bad reaction" all the vet has to do is just.....turn
> it off! Iso's effects are quickly and easily reversed."
>
> Megan

A good debate will bring up strong opinions. I learned a lot from this
debate. I think the edginess and fractiousness I see here is precisely
because we are dealing with lots of information. Some of this
information is quite critical of either vets or even ourselves at
times. If I had to contend with lots of cats as Phil does, I probably
would be short-fused at times. Most of what he says is on the money,
not all, but most. Most of what we are discussing here can be a matter
of life and death and is one of the main problems in all of medicine.
Anesthesia is what makes minor things major operations. It's tricky and
an edgy topic because mistakes will destroy someone's brain.

Anesthesia is a terrible, deadly thing when misused. It's probably, and
here I am guessing, one of the main reasons that senior adults, humans,
are made into vegetable cases in hospitals. Now there are more
safeguards. But many, many people were reduced to the living dead
because either given too much anesthesia or the anesthesiologist was
either working two operating rooms or not monitoring the equipment to
prevent brain dead death.

I cannot think of many things worse than going into a hospital for a
routine case, like gallbladder surgery and coming out a basket case.
With laser surgery, this is now reduced I would reckon.

Quite a few years ago Harvard did a study on this. Most of the
gallbladder operations were not necessary and accounted for way too
many brain deaths in the elderly. And what is true for senior citizens
is also true for senior felines, although they do not have citizen
status - yet:)

Let's keep up the controversy because when we have only a few posts and
limited time, it helps be critical, even at the risk of appearng
unnecessarily adversarial.

Again, I found this thread extremely helpful and informative. I now
know a lot about anesthetics. And I am pleasantly surprised that the
drug of choice that Phil prefers is the same drug that was given to me
personally a scant two weeks ago, although by an anesthesiologist whose
sole responsibility was to make sure I was given the right amount and
came out alive. I came out crystal clear and without any effects
whatsoever that I could notice with the Diprivan which is also propofol
or profofol. Why so many names, I don't know unless they are brand
names. I don't have the time to look it up at the moment.

I also learned about drugs given before Isoflurane and what exactly
Isoflurane smells and does. A box is not necessarily the easiest thing
but if clear, then okay. And my suspicions about ketamine were
confirmed. Maybe I would go to a major animal hospital so more likely
they would be using the advanced techniques, as opposed to a local vet
who may not have the time or interest to get the latest equipment,
drugs, and most of all, expertise.

Good for me. Good for cats. A win-win situation.

cybercat
November 21st 05, 05:30 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you said "never"-
> > >meaning it "never" happened. Even
> > >"sometimes" would have been a little
> > >more believable.
> >
> > I would be lying if I said it happened "sometimes." For the zillionth
> > time I will reiterate that I have NEVER had a cat freak out in the
> > chamber.
>
> You can reiterate all you want. Repeating the same thing over and over
> doesn't make it true or believable.

This won't stop Megan or Lyn. At least it is funny to watch. There is
something
to say about entertainment value.

Aren't you glad you don't base most of your sense of self worth on whether
or not you are seen as an "expert" in Usenet?

Lumpy
November 21st 05, 05:46 PM
"Wendy" > wrote

> >>
> >
> > It still does not sound right.
> >
> >
>
> My Tigger was never very cooperative at the vets office. Took 5 people to
> get blood from her the last time she had that done and she was 18 and had
> arthritis.

Oh my! She was a terror!

>She had x-rays taken a few times over the course of her life
> without anesthesia. I think the last time she was in they said they would
> have to anesthetize her to get the one angle they wanted because she just
> wasn't cooperating AT ALL. I'm sure the vet wished he could have given her
a
> 'chill pill' every time he saw her. She wasn't a very trusting kitty with
> anyone that didn't live with her.
>

My first cat was so bad she started that snarly kind of screaming
when she hit the door and any time anyone approached her, let
along touched her, it sounded like they were skinning her alive.
The funny thing is, she was all noise and never tried to bite the
vets or techs. Still, by the time they got the iv out of her and
put her in her carrier for me to take her home, I noticed that
the vet techs' hands were shaking and they looked a bit pale.
:) Drama queens. Gotta love 'em.

Back to blkcatgrl's problem--it seems to me that routinely
sedating or anesthetizing cats for xrays is not a good idea.
It is an overcomplication of a simple procedure that could
get some cats into trouble.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 05:57 PM
> wrote in message
...
Phil wrote:

>were just busted in another thread for doing exactly that, leaving traps
set unattended while you're at home posting to Usenet),



I don't think so. The only thing that has been busted is your balloon. I've
had an air card for my laptops for years--I have internet access from
*anywhere*. Before I had the air card, I used my cell phone as modem.
I guess that's very hard for you to fathom with your Web-TV.





>This is just another example of your desperate need to be right,


Naa, it just usually works out that way because I usually know what I'm
talking about..



>Btw, how does your vet monitor the cat
>during induction- which is the most critical
>phase of anesthesia- while inside a sealed
>box, huh?

>Induction chambers are clear. You put the cat in, turn the gas on, watch
the cat until it nods

OMG! When the cat nods out- she could be dead! You can't monitor the cat's
blood pressure or heart rate from inside an induction chamber. The Iso
concentration needed to anesthetize a cat can cause *fatal* hypotension!
What the hell kind of vet do you have??? One of the reasons for
premedicating a cat is so *LESS* anesthetic agent is necessary. Now, I have
absolutely *no* doubt *whatsoever* that you don't know what the hell you're
talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

cybercat
November 21st 05, 06:09 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> Phil wrote:
>
> >were just busted in another thread for doing exactly that, leaving traps
> set unattended while you're at home posting to Usenet),
>
>
>
> I don't think so. The only thing that has been busted is your balloon.
I've
> had an air card for my laptops for years--I have internet access from
> *anywhere*. Before I had the air card, I used my cell phone as modem.
> I guess that's very hard for you to fathom with your Web-TV.
>

What really kills me is when Megan complains about "too many posts"
because her WebTV can't handle it. Oh, the brass balls of the insane.
lol

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 07:53 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > Phil wrote:
> >
> > >were just busted in another thread for doing exactly that, leaving
traps
> > set unattended while you're at home posting to Usenet),
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think so. The only thing that has been busted is your balloon.
> I've
> > had an air card for my laptops for years--I have internet access from
> > *anywhere*. Before I had the air card, I used my cell phone as modem.
> > I guess that's very hard for you to fathom with your Web-TV.
> >
>
> What really kills me is when Megan complains about "too many posts"
> because her WebTV can't handle it. Oh, the brass balls of the insane.
> lol

She used to be a lot worse (if you can imagine that).

The speed is faster with the air card than with dial up- at least it seems
that way. But its a lot slower than DSL. Using my cell phone as a modem
connected to a laptop was a nightmare- really slow and I had no access in
some areas. At the beginning it didn't bother me because I have unlimited
nights and weekends- but after awhile the slow speed drove me nuts so I
sprung for the air card. What I save in overseas calls to the other side of
the world more than offsets the cost of the card and service. The first
month alone paid for the card.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 07:56 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...

> whatsoever that I could notice with the Diprivan which is also propofol
> or profofol. Why so many names, I don't know unless they are brand
> names. I don't have the time to look it up at the moment.

I think the generic name is Propofol and the tradename is Diprivan.



>
> I also learned about drugs given before Isoflurane and what exactly
> Isoflurane smells and does.


I actually got a whiff of the stuff- nasty! You've got a have a good
scavenging system when you use Iso. Even though the effects are very short,
it can knock you for a loop if it you get enough of it. Iso comes in little
glass bottles- if you drop one- you're in big trouble!





A box is not necessarily the easiest thing
> but if clear, then okay.



Aside from the cats' reaction to the noxious fumes, you can't monitor the
cat's blood pressure or O2 or
CO2 from inside a sealed chamber. Induction is the most dangerous stage of
anesthesia and when monitoring is most important.




And my suspicions about ketamine were
> confirmed.

Its the cheapest crap on the market- that's why so many vets use it. .



Maybe I would go to a major animal hospital so more likely
> they would be using the advanced techniques, as opposed to a local vet
> who may not have the time or interest to get the latest equipment,
> drugs, and most of all, expertise.

Many vets charge extra for gas because it requires a lot of expensive
equipment- especially the precision vaporizer- and Iso requires a special
vaporizer that's calibrated for Iso.

Phil

PawsForThought
November 21st 05, 08:22 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
>
> Is it Ketamine that your vet is giving your cat? That stuff is bad
> > news in my experience. Since you said your cat took 2 days to fully
> > recover, I would suspect it was something like Ketamine.
>
> Ketamine is nasty stuff. A lot of vets swear by it because its so cheap.
> Its also the anesthetic most vets were taught in school. The cat's eyes
> remain open while they're under (scary sight) so their eyes must be
> lubricated and protected. Recovery is awful- the cats stumble around for
> hours. Its must be a horrible experience for them because they don't
> understand what's wrong. Very disturbing to watch.

I'm really trying to remember what one of my cats got that's similar to
Ketamine. This was perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. I think it was
something called Telazol. I will never forget her reaction to it.
Horrible!!!!!!!! :( I never took her back to that vet.

> The only recovery precaution you have to take with Iso after surgery is to
> make sure the cat receives pain medication because the recovery is so rapid.
> Otherwise, the cat will wake up in pain.

Both my cats got something for pain after the Iso when they got
spayed/neutered. Torbogesic maybe?? I can't remember. When I picked
them up, they were acting completely normal and wide awake, and not
like cats I've had in the past who got injectibles only.

Phil P.
November 21st 05, 09:10 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "PawsForThought" > wrote in message

> I'm really trying to remember what one of my cats got that's similar to
> Ketamine. This was perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. I think it was
> something called Telazol. I will never forget her reaction to it.
> Horrible!!!!!!!! :( I never took her back to that vet.

Yep! Telazol. Its a combination of tiletamine-zolazepam. That's another
nasty "dissociative anesthetic" . Tiletamine is a drug like ketamine, and
zolazepam is a drug like valium. Recovery from Telazol takes even longer
than from ketamine and is even more nerve-wracking to watch because it takes
so long. I hate what that stuff does to cats- and all dissociative
anesthetics.


>
> > The only recovery precaution you have to take with Iso after surgery is
to
> > make sure the cat receives pain medication because the recovery is so
rapid.
> > Otherwise, the cat will wake up in pain.
>
> Both my cats got something for pain after the Iso when they got
> spayed/neutered. Torbogesic maybe?? I can't remember.

Yep. Can you believe vets weren't sure if cats felt pain after spaying and
needed studies??? How about that study on post-declawing pain? You remember
that. They found cats could be in pain for >3 weeks and yet most vets never
gave any pain meds at all. Makes me furious.


When I picked
> them up, they were acting completely normal and wide awake, and not
> like cats I've had in the past who got injectibles only.


Recovery is even better in kittens- They can't wait to start playing again 5
minutes after surgery- gotta hold them back for a little while!

Phil

PawsForThought
November 23rd 05, 12:19 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > "PawsForThought" > wrote in message
>
> > I'm really trying to remember what one of my cats got that's similar to
> > Ketamine. This was perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. I think it was
> > something called Telazol. I will never forget her reaction to it.
> > Horrible!!!!!!!! :( I never took her back to that vet.
>
> Yep! Telazol. Its a combination of tiletamine-zolazepam. That's another
> nasty "dissociative anesthetic" . Tiletamine is a drug like ketamine, and
> zolazepam is a drug like valium. Recovery from Telazol takes even longer
> than from ketamine and is even more nerve-wracking to watch because it takes
> so long. I hate what that stuff does to cats- and all dissociative
> anesthetics.

No wonder she was such a wreck :( She was so out of it when I went to
pick her up. But the vet clinic was closing for the night and I knew
no one would be there to watch my cat so I took her home. I ended up
calling the emergency vet because I was so worried. It was a tough
call to make, whether to bring her in there or keep her at home. I
decided to keep her at home and watch her, which is ultimately what the
emergency clinic suggested. I confined her and also kept the room
dark. There was no doubt in my mind that she was hallucinating from
that crap. Oh, and when I first had taken her to the vet, I told them
very clearly that she was sensitive to anesthesia so please be extra
careful. Argh!

> > > The only recovery precaution you have to take with Iso after surgery is
> to
> > > make sure the cat receives pain medication because the recovery is so
> rapid.
> > > Otherwise, the cat will wake up in pain.
> >
> > Both my cats got something for pain after the Iso when they got
> > spayed/neutered. Torbogesic maybe?? I can't remember.
>
> Yep. Can you believe vets weren't sure if cats felt pain after spaying and
> needed studies??? How about that study on post-declawing pain? You remember
> that. They found cats could be in pain for >3 weeks and yet most vets never
> gave any pain meds at all. Makes me furious.

Me too :( *******s!

PawsForThought
November 23rd 05, 12:26 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "PawsForThought" > wrote in message

>
> Actually, the safest anesthetic is the one your vet is the most familiar
> with. I wouldn't want a vet to learn a new anesthetic on my cats! I'd
> rather use a vet that uses an anesthetic protocol that I'm comfortable with
> than tell a vet what to use.

Good point. Meesha is going for her 6 month checkup Saturday. I'm
going to see if my vet uses the Propofol just for curiosity and for
future reference.

> > Having an asthmatic cat, I really don't want to cause her any more
> > stress than absolutely necessary.
>
> Have you tried inhaled Flovent (steroid)? Much less systemic effects.

We've never used inhaled meds. Meesha is doing so well on the natural
cortisone that I'm afraid to tip the boat at this stage. She'll have
some tests including a full blood panel Saturday so we'll see how her
numbers are. However, if a time comes when it's not working well, I
would definitely try the Flovent.

-L.
November 23rd 05, 01:15 AM
Phil P. wrote:

<snip lies baout internet access>

Phil, keep repeating it as much as you want. Nobody but cyber****
believes you.

> OMG! When the cat nods out- she could be dead! You can't monitor the cat's
> blood pressure or heart rate from inside an induction chamber. The Iso
> concentration needed to anesthetize a cat can cause *fatal* hypotension!
> What the hell kind of vet do you have???

None of the feline specialists I worked for in the SF Bay area
monitored BP, heart rate, O2 or anything else while knocking cats out
in iso chambers. You basically feed in a mix and wait until the cat
goes down. The idea is to get them down, and then mask them asap. I
think they know a *little* more about feline medicine than you do. Or
do you know some magic way to monitor a cat in an iso chamber?


One of the reasons for
> premedicating a cat is so *LESS* anesthetic agent is necessary.

The main reason is so that the cat can be handled *to* give it
anesthetic.

> Now, I have
> absolutely *no* doubt *whatsoever* that you don't know what the hell you're
> talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

There you go again. Did it ever occur to you that other people in
other parts of the world have different experiences than yourself?
Didn't think so. Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe.

-L.

Phil P.
November 23rd 05, 01:42 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> <snip lies baout internet access>
>
> Phil, keep repeating it as much as you want. Nobody but cyber****
> believes you.
>
> > OMG! When the cat nods out- she could be dead! You can't monitor the
cat's
> > blood pressure or heart rate from inside an induction chamber. The Iso
> > concentration needed to anesthetize a cat can cause *fatal* hypotension!
> > What the hell kind of vet do you have???
>
> None of the feline specialists I worked for in the SF Bay area
> monitored BP, heart rate, O2 or anything else while knocking cats out
> in iso chambers.


If that's true-- which I doubt, slim- you've worked for mediocre-to-poor
vets. That's probably why you don't know any better. A good vet know's how
to anesthetize, neuter, and place a feral in a recovery cage without *ever*
touching her while she's conscious or using an induction chamber.





> There you go again. Did it ever occur to you that other people in
> other parts of the world have different experiences than yourself?


> Didn't think so. Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe.

Naa, it only seems that way to you, slim, because I know more than you.

-L.
November 23rd 05, 01:47 AM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> If that's true-- which I doubt, slim- you've worked for mediocre-to-poor
> vets. That's probably why you don't know any better. A good vet know's how
> to anesthetize, neuter, and place a feral in a recovery cage without *ever*
> touching her while she's conscious or using an induction chamber.

I didn't say anything about ferals. Ferals were presedated, always.

>
> > There you go again. Did it ever occur to you that other people in
> > other parts of the world have different experiences than yourself?
>
>
> > Didn't think so. Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe.
>
> Naa, it only seems that way to you, slim, because I know more than you.

As you keep having to tell us again and again. That microdick looking
any bigger today?

-L.

Phil P.
November 23rd 05, 03:09 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > If that's true-- which I doubt, slim- you've worked for mediocre-to-poor
> > vets. That's probably why you don't know any better. A good vet know's
how
> > to anesthetize, neuter, and place a feral in a recovery cage without
*ever*
> > touching her while she's conscious or using an induction chamber.
>
> I didn't say anything about ferals. Ferals were presedated, always.


There're ya ago! That's was exactly my point!



> > > There you go again. Did it ever occur to you that other people in
> > > other parts of the world have different experiences than yourself?
> >
> >
> > > Didn't think so. Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe.
> >
> > Naa, it only seems that way to you, slim, because I know more than you.
>
> As you keep having to tell us again and again.


I just like to rub it in because I know it bothers you. Otherwise you
wouldn't keep mentioning it.

-L.
November 23rd 05, 07:03 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > I didn't say anything about ferals. Ferals were presedated, always.
>
> There're ya ago! That's was exactly my point!

That doesn't mean there aren't cases where cats, feral or otherwise,
cannot be presedated and need to be taken down in an iso chamber.
Megan and/or her vet may very well have a reason for having ferals
anesthesized this way.

The vet office I was referring to took ferals reluctantly, and only
would take them in transfer cages, under the condition that whomever
dropped them off knew they would be presedated, regardless of the
outcome. What this meant is that even ferals with a history
contraindicating presedation were presedated - not very good medical
policy, IMO.

FWIW, the asshole owner of the practice also declawed on demand, which
is one of the major reasons I finally quit working there. They did a
lot of good in the community - low and no-cost S/N, for example, but in
the end, I just couldn't stomach the mentality of the owner.


> > > > There you go again. Did it ever occur to you that other people in
> > > > other parts of the world have different experiences than yourself?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Didn't think so. Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe.
> > >
> > > Naa, it only seems that way to you, slim, because I know more than you.
> >
> > As you keep having to tell us again and again.
>
>
> I just like to rub it in because I know it bothers you. Otherwise you
> wouldn't keep mentioning it.

Again, it doesn't. I have stated time and time again that you know
more about cats than I do. For some reason that makes you proud, as if
you win some award or something. What's up with that?

-L.

Phil P.
November 23rd 05, 09:09 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > >
> > > I didn't say anything about ferals. Ferals were presedated, always.
> >
> > There're ya ago! That's was exactly my point!
>
> That doesn't mean there aren't cases where cats, feral

I don't care about other cases. That's way ferals should be handled. My
point was: There's no need to put a cat through the stress and *danger* of a
tank induction while she's fully conscious and alert. There's no need to
handle or even touch a feral while she's conscious from the time she's
trapped until she's released. Less stress for the cat, less risk of injury
for the cat, handler and the vet.

I don't know how some people do things, but you shouldn't have to touch a
feral *at all* while she's conscious- if you know what you're doing and have
the right equipment. You simply butt the back of the trap to the squeeze
cage or restraint module and raise the doors. Most cats go right into the
squeeze cage to get out of the trap. If she doesn't, gently nudge her into
the trap with a cage divider or tilt the trap and cage. Then gently squeeze
the cat against the side of the cage with the lever that moves the wall.
The cat
will be immobilized against the side of the cage and can be sedated without
any difficulty and transferred to the table for surgery. What's so hard
about that?

After surgery and the gas is shut off but while she's still groggy, you
transfer her to a carrier or cage for recovery and from where she's later
released. You can feed her and change the litter by confining her to the
back of the cage with a cage divider that slides between the bars.-- costs
about $12.

We go through the procedure like clock-work every time. Its safe and
minimally stressful for the cat, and fast and safe for all personnel. It
has to be fast because you can't exactly make an appointment to trap and
neuter a feral.

I'm often amazed by the difficulty some people have with ferals. They make
a major production of it. They stress out the cats as well as themselves.
Many people think they're experts because they've been doing it for so long-
even though they've been doing things ass-backwards. All you need is
transfer trap that has a vertical rear door, a squeeze cage or restraint
module, a good size transfer cage and a cage divider. You're in business
for <$250 and the equipment will last many years. If your time is so
valuable- that set up is the best investment you can make because it will
save you a *lot* of time and trouble- its also the safest system you can put
together because you never have to touch a conscious feral. You only need
one recovery cage because it never has to leave the building - you can also
transfer the cat from the cage to a carrier for release without ever
touching her. Males can go right back out in a few hours.



>FWIW, the asshole owner of the practice also declawed on demand, which
>is one of the major reasons I finally quit working there.


Now tell me you never saw or heard cats waking up screaming in excruciating
pain bouncing off the walls of the cage in pools of blood from ripping off
the bandages trying to get at their paws?


They did a
>lot of good in the community - low and no-cost S/N, for example, but in
>the end, I just couldn't stomach the mentality of the owner.

Most of the low-cost neuter clinics I know have their hearts in the right
place. But some equate low-cost with low-quality of care.

> > I just like to rub it in because I know it bothers you. Otherwise you
> > wouldn't keep mentioning it.
>
> Again, it doesn't. I have stated time and time again that you know
> more about cats than I do. For some reason that makes you proud, as if
> you win some award or something. What's up with that?

It sure seems like it bothers you. If it didn't, you wouldn't repeatedly
make remarks like "Phil P. : Be-all and know-it-all of the Universe."

Btw, here's a holiday present for you:
http://www.maxshouse.com/misc/mobileoffice.jpg