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Richard Evans
November 21st 05, 06:43 PM
I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.

I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
two-faced personality.

I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
this, Any suggestions?

cybercat
November 21st 05, 06:48 PM
"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>
> I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> two-faced personality.

I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They can
be really moody.
>
> I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> this, Any suggestions?

Many of us have had and loved psycho kitties for years. I had one
for 20 years. Do you plan on fostering her for long enough to
train her not to bite?

Richard Evans
November 21st 05, 08:02 PM
"cybercat" > wrote:

>I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
>cats and biting, right?

Anecdotally, yes.

>
>Many of us have had and loved psycho kitties for years. I had one
>for 20 years.

I've been fostering for about ten years and five of my six personal
cats were former fosters who were hard to place for one reason or
another. I simply can't absorb an unlimited number of difficult cases.
Every one I keep is one less I can foster.

Furthermore, though you and I may be able to tolerate eccentric
behavior, most potential adopters won't.

>Do you plan on fostering her for long enough to
>train her not to bite?

Yes, that's why I'm asking for advice on how to train her. Over the
years I've trained some real hard cases, but nothing like this one. I
have more scars from her in a month than from all previous fosters
combined.

Joe Canuck
November 21st 05, 08:05 PM
Richard Evans wrote:

> I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>
> I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> two-faced personality.
>
> I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> this, Any suggestions?

Unfortunately you don't know her history; however, she has been
declawed... and declawed cats are more inclined to bite because they no
longer have claws as a defensive mechanism.

cybercat
November 21st 05, 08:24 PM
"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >Many of us have had and loved psycho kitties for years. I had one
> >for 20 years.
>
> I've been fostering for about ten years and five of my six personal
> cats were former fosters who were hard to place for one reason or
> another. I simply can't absorb an unlimited number of difficult cases.

I did not mean to suggest that you should keep her. I just meant
that it is possible to keep and love these cats. I was not sure you
knew that.

>
> Furthermore, though you and I may be able to tolerate eccentric
> behavior, most potential adopters won't.

Very true. These cats need special people who are willing to work
with them.

>
> >Do you plan on fostering her for long enough to
> >train her not to bite?
>
> Yes, that's why I'm asking for advice on how to train her. Over the
> years I've trained some real hard cases, but nothing like this one. I
> have more scars from her in a month than from all previous fosters
> combined.
>

I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop
biting me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
"OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."

I believe something similar is the old loud "OW" and withdrawal.
But I am not sure if she would have to be attached in order for
that to work.

(My allegedly abusive way was to swat her--very gently, like
a tap--in the side of the face and yell "OW." It did not hurt her
but it startled her enough that she stopped the dangerous biting.
I referred to this as a "slap" in other posts, and so it did sound
bad. She actually continued to bite, but just to the point before
it broke the skin. Then I'd say "OW, she would anticipate a
swat, and lick me instead. I think this is essentially what a mama
cat would do--swat, that is--if a baby got too rambunctious.
But I am not really sure now if I was being abusive or not,
since so many say I was.)

Richard Evans
November 21st 05, 09:11 PM
Joe Canuck > wrote:

>Unfortunately you don't know her history; however, she has been
>declawed... and declawed cats are more inclined to bite because they no
>longer have claws as a defensive mechanism.

Her history is that she was a house pet who was given into foster care
because of this biting behavior.

I can understand why a declawed cat would resort to biting in a
threatening situation where clawing would otherwise be an option, but
I don't understand biting in nonthreatening situations that the cat
herself initiated.

Richard Evans
November 21st 05, 09:17 PM
"cybercat" > wrote:

>
>I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop>biting me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
>been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
>up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
>"OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."

Abuse is relative and I have no qualms about swatting her. I have
another decalw here who was given to mild biting when I got her and
she finally got over it by plying her with Pounce treats and
encouraging her to associate treats with touching. The process was
slow but painless, This latest one is anything but painless and I'm
not sure how much blood I'm willing to donate to the cause. (She
doesn't care for treats, so I have nothing to bribe her with.)

Joe Canuck
November 21st 05, 09:18 PM
Richard Evans wrote:

> Joe Canuck > wrote:
>
>
>>Unfortunately you don't know her history; however, she has been
>>declawed... and declawed cats are more inclined to bite because they no
>>longer have claws as a defensive mechanism.
>
>
> Her history is that she was a house pet who was given into foster care
> because of this biting behavior.
>
> I can understand why a declawed cat would resort to biting in a
> threatening situation where clawing would otherwise be an option, but
> I don't understand biting in nonthreatening situations that the cat
> herself initiated.
>

Overstimulated?

jmc
November 21st 05, 09:26 PM
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (21-Nov-05 8:24 PM):
> "Richard Evans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"cybercat" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Many of us have had and loved psycho kitties for years. I had one
>>>for 20 years.
>>
>>I've been fostering for about ten years and five of my six personal
>>cats were former fosters who were hard to place for one reason or
>>another. I simply can't absorb an unlimited number of difficult cases.
>
>
> I did not mean to suggest that you should keep her. I just meant
> that it is possible to keep and love these cats. I was not sure you
> knew that.
>
>
>>Furthermore, though you and I may be able to tolerate eccentric
>>behavior, most potential adopters won't.
>
>
> Very true. These cats need special people who are willing to work
> with them.
>
>
>>>Do you plan on fostering her for long enough to
>>>train her not to bite?
>>
>>Yes, that's why I'm asking for advice on how to train her. Over the
>>years I've trained some real hard cases, but nothing like this one. I
>>have more scars from her in a month than from all previous fosters
>>combined.
>>
>
>
> I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop
> biting me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
> been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
> up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
> "OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."
>
> I believe something similar is the old loud "OW" and withdrawal.
> But I am not sure if she would have to be attached in order for
> that to work.
>
> (My allegedly abusive way was to swat her--very gently, like
> a tap--in the side of the face and yell "OW." It did not hurt her
> but it startled her enough that she stopped the dangerous biting.
> I referred to this as a "slap" in other posts, and so it did sound
> bad. She actually continued to bite, but just to the point before
> it broke the skin. Then I'd say "OW, she would anticipate a
> swat, and lick me instead. I think this is essentially what a mama
> cat would do--swat, that is--if a baby got too rambunctious.
> But I am not really sure now if I was being abusive or not,
> since so many say I was.)
>
>
I wouldn't say this is abusive, if it was light enough to only startle
her. If she ran off frightened, then obviously it'd be too strong a
'swat'. I used to do something similar - a strong tap with two fingers
- when Meep was a kitten. It worked very well without frightening her,
and she hasn't seriously threatened to bite me in years. She's very
cute, because if she does think of biting me - a quick head motion is my
only clue - she starts madly licking me instead.

jmc

Willow
November 21st 05, 09:38 PM
That sounds a LOT like Gaya (my female Tortie)

unfortunately I never could "reform" her.. she just trained me to live with
it..

Hope you figure it out though.. it's hard enough to adopt out cats that
don't have bad habits.. :o(

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>
> I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> two-faced personality.
>
> I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> this, Any suggestions?

Willow
November 21st 05, 09:40 PM
Get a little mouse with a jiggle in it..

My siamese (who didn't like treats all that much either) loved to chase
those around.. when he clawed the furniture I would trow it around to
distract him.. it worked.. mostly..

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop>biting me to the
bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
> >been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
> >up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
> >"OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."
>
> Abuse is relative and I have no qualms about swatting her. I have
> another decalw here who was given to mild biting when I got her and
> she finally got over it by plying her with Pounce treats and
> encouraging her to associate treats with touching. The process was
> slow but painless, This latest one is anything but painless and I'm
> not sure how much blood I'm willing to donate to the cause. (She
> doesn't care for treats, so I have nothing to bribe her with.)
>
>

whitershadeofpale
November 21st 05, 09:52 PM
Richard Evans wrote:
> I can understand why a declawed cat would resort to biting in a
> threatening situation where clawing would otherwise be an option, but
> I don't understand biting in nonthreatening situations that the cat
> herself initiated.

Stoppe being so sensitive about it and just kick her ass...playfully.
Grab her whole head in your hand...pen her to the couch and then
let her up...repeat...play with the cat..play rough with her.

I tell ya, I had a friend who would toss his cat across the room
spin her madly...round and round...the cat kep coming back for more.
Some people are like that, just buck ass wild <cough cough>...

This way she gets it out of her system.

for the biting though, just dominate her, pen her down by the throat.
(don't choke her, I don't mean that..I mean, play wrestling)
put some gloves, or long sleeves...

don't get me started..
play rough with her / she likes it that man

whitershadeofpale
November 21st 05, 10:09 PM
Richard Evans wrote:
....situation where clawing would otherwise be an option, but
> I don't understand biting in nonthreatening situations that the cat
> herself initiated.

not too rough

cybercat
November 21st 05, 10:15 PM
"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop>biting
me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
> >been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
> >up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
> >"OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."
>
> Abuse is relative and I have no qualms about swatting her.

I must admit, it was a reflex more than anything else, but it
did work. The positive reinforcement came the first time she
eased up and "kissed" me in what I took as an apologetic
way, because I thought it was really cute and loved her
up and gave her treats. In my heart of hearts I don't think
it was abusive, as I have never been the type to want to
hurt or frighten those I love.

I have
> another decalw here who was given to mild biting when I got her and
> she finally got over it by plying her with Pounce treats and
> encouraging her to associate treats with touching. The process was
> slow but painless, This latest one is anything but painless and I'm
> not sure how much blood I'm willing to donate to the cause. (She
> doesn't care for treats, so I have nothing to bribe her with.)
>
She has to like something! lol!! Catnip, maybe? Canned tuna?!
Every cat has her price. How long has she been with you?
It might just take you a bit longer to get to know her.

November 21st 05, 10:21 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "Richard Evans" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> > the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> > all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> > draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
> >
> > I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> > that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> > two-faced personality.
>
> I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
> cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They can
> be really moody.
> >
> > I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> > this, Any suggestions?
>
> Many of us have had and loved psycho kitties for years. I had one
> for 20 years. Do you plan on fostering her for long enough to
> train her not to bite?

I have noticed this behavior with declawed cats. I do not think it's a
coincidence.

cybercat
November 21st 05, 10:21 PM
"jmc" > wrote

> >
> I wouldn't say this is abusive, if it was light enough to only startle
> her. If she ran off frightened, then obviously it'd be too strong a
> 'swat'.

No, she didn't run away. What she did was let go, then sit there
and look at me, very surprised, and made a cat sound that might
translate into "you bitch!" She never looked cowed or afraid.
This was a very vocal cat, I think she may have had some
Siamese in her too, she was a lilac cream tortoiseshell with
a lot of blonde and a flat, wedge-shaped head like many
Siamese cats.


>I used to do something similar - a strong tap with two fingers
> - when Meep was a kitten. It worked very well without frightening her,
> and she hasn't seriously threatened to bite me in years. She's very
> cute, because if she does think of biting me - a quick head motion is my
> only clue - she starts madly licking me instead.
>

Aw, that really is so cute, isn't it?

Snittens
November 21st 05, 10:25 PM
"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
>I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>
> I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> two-faced personality.
>
> I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> this, Any suggestions?

Have you thought about trying Prozac? I know someone who had success with
it on her foster that she had named "Cybil" because of her personality. The
downside is that then the cat is on medication, which also makes her hard to
adopt. Try giving her extra rewards when she is nice, like treats and lots
of praise.

--
-Kelly

November 21st 05, 10:49 PM
I have a siamese who had a serious biting problem. I truly believe he
never stopped playing rough. His owner died when he was almos 2 years
old and he spent a long time by himself until we adopted him. He is
extremely moody and would attack when 'upset' - kind of like a revenge.
He loved to attack our legs.

Anyway, 6 months have passed and his attacks have been reduced to a
minimal (1 every 3 weeks). I have to say that the few attacs that
still happen are very mild (not really complete :) ) . Most of the
times they are my own fault (when I overpet or hold him when he doesn't
want!) . My 'technique' consisted of saying "No" and then putting him
in a closed room for five minutes. The funny thing is that the last
time he started to attack me, he gave up and went straight to the room
and stayed there. So, I guess he is getting it! I think the attacks
would have completely disappeared if it wasn't for the fact that he is
on a diet and a little moody.

I have been reading a lot on how to discipline cats without scaring
them. It is quite challenging, no?

Anyway, this cat is the most darling cat I ever met. He gives little
kisses, rubs his head on us, greet us when we arrive, talks with me for
minutes, loves to sit by our side, etc. He is extremely smart and real
fun to watch. So, I belive that the minimal he deserves is a little
patience. After all, he spent so much time without being paid much
attention.

Minerva

Lumpy
November 22nd 05, 12:01 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Anyway, this cat is the most darling cat I ever met. He gives little
> kisses, rubs his head on us, greet us when we arrive, talks with me for
> minutes, loves to sit by our side, etc. He is extremely smart and real
> fun to watch. So, I belive that the minimal he deserves is a little
> patience. After all, he spent so much time without being paid much
> attention.

He sounds just wonderful. I'd love to see some pictures.

Richard Evans
November 22nd 05, 12:25 AM
"Willow" > wrote:

>Get a little mouse with a jiggle in it..
>

I tried a peaock feather and it scared the bejeezus out of her.

Joe Canuck
November 22nd 05, 01:47 AM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:

> Brandy Alexandre > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>Richard Evans > wrote in
>>rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>
>>>I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed
>>>on the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute
>>>she is all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites
>>>hard enough to draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to
>>>cuddling and purring.
>>>
>>>I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones
>>>that that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first
>>>with such a two-faced personality.
>>>
>>>I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's
>>>like this, Any suggestions?
>>>
>>
>>That's exactly how Kami is and was before and after being
>>declawed, and it's the reason I had her declawed,


That statement makes absolutely no sense.

....and you expected declawing to cure the biting issue?

<shaking head>

Joe <- Cannot believe what I just read.


> and probably
>>same for your foster. All I can say is time has mellowed her, but
>>she continued to have her moments well into the double digits.
>>(She's pushing 18.)
>>
>
>
> BTW, Kami is half siamese. The comment about them being moody rings
> true.
>

November 22nd 05, 02:00 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop
> biting me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
> been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
> up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
> "OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."
>
> I believe something similar is the old loud "OW" and withdrawal.
> But I am not sure if she would have to be attached in order for
> that to work.
>
> (My allegedly abusive way was to swat her--very gently, like
> a tap--in the side of the face and yell "OW." It did not hurt her
> but it startled her enough that she stopped the dangerous biting.
> I referred to this as a "slap" in other posts, and so it did sound
> bad. She actually continued to bite, but just to the point before
> it broke the skin. Then I'd say "OW, she would anticipate a
> swat, and lick me instead. I think this is essentially what a mama
> cat would do--swat, that is--if a baby got too rambunctious.
> But I am not really sure now if I was being abusive or not,
> since so many say I was.)

It wasn't a "tap" the first time you posted about it - it was a "slap
across the chops":

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/7e4b46e3ebbabe55?dmode=source&hl=en

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From: "Mary" >
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
References: >
>
>
et>
Subject: Re: I'm at wit's end with my cat...
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"Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> In article >,
> "ChakaShiva" > wrote:
>
> > So what do you do when he's got his teeth sunk deep into your hand
and won't
> > let go?
> > Talk him gently out of it?

Please. In this case you are allowed to slap the cat right across the
chops. I had a hard biter--for two months. When she bit me, I yelled
"OW!" and slapped her. Then I had a cat that gave me sweet little love
bites and licked me as soon as she heard "OW." for 20 years.

It should go without saying that I did not slap her hard enough to
hurt her. But there, I've said it anyway.

**end paste

Evidently you now realize what you did was abusive and wrong, and now
you have revised it into a "tap". Guilt has a way of doing that to
people.

-L.

Elizabeth Blake
November 22nd 05, 02:34 AM
"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
>I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>
> I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> two-faced personality.
>
> I can't in good conscience offer her for adoption while she's like
> this, Any suggestions?

One of the cats at work is like this. We got her from a shelter when she
was 1 1/2 years old (that was February 1999). The shelter did not mention
that she was declawed, and she was so shy at first I didn't realize it for
about a week. Once she got used to her surroundings and came out of hiding,
she started biting. She doesn't like to be pet much, but would allow
someone to start petting her and then she'd decide she had enough, and she'd
bite. Since she's in a store, she was biting a lot of customers. When she
bit me, I would say very loudly, NO! and pull my hand away. Eventually when
I said NO she would stop biting down, but she would often still have her
teeth on my flesh. She's around so many different people all day, but
eventually she stopped biting ME. She sometimes gets mad at me and will
hiss & growl and pretend that she's going to bite me but she always stops.

However, she gets into moods sometimes and will attack everyone else (except
my boss, who she also never bites). If she's in a bad mood (was spooked,
was attacked by the other cat) she'll often take it out on the next person
she sees. She's gotten the ankles of every current employee and countless
customers over the years. She draws blood most of the time, too, right
through pants/jeans. We were having a lot of problems with her in late
September/early October, but she's also had medical issues and was going
back & forth between work, my apartment and the vet for 2 solid months. She
finally calmed down and has been much better for the last 5-6 weeks. I got
her a cat tree/condo, which is in the basement, and she spends a lot of time
on it. This keeps her away from customers most of the time. And overall,
she is biting a LOT less now than she was just a couple of years ago.

--
Liz

Tony P.
November 22nd 05, 03:13 AM
In article >, says...
>
> "Richard Evans" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> > the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> > all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> > draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
> >
> > I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> > that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> > two-faced personality.
>
> I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
> cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They can
> be really moody.

I have a 25lb. fully claw intact cat that also has a biting thing. He
doesn't bite hard enough to break skin, it's just a playful thing. So
I'd say that correlation is off by a bit.

No More Retail
November 22nd 05, 03:25 AM
That is a scary thought in this lawsuit sue happy Judge Judy age we are
living in
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever complained
> about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws blood?
> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/

CatNipped
November 22nd 05, 03:26 AM
"Tony P." > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >, says...
> >
> > "Richard Evans" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> > > the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> > > all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> > > draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
> > >
> > > I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> > > that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> > > two-faced personality.
> >
> > I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
> > cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They
can
> > be really moody.
>
> I have a 25lb. fully claw intact cat that also has a biting thing. He
> doesn't bite hard enough to break skin, it's just a playful thing. So
> I'd say that correlation is off by a bit.

It's not a one-to-one correlation, e.g. you can say "all cats that are
declawed have biting problems" *without* drawing the conclusion that "all
cats that have biting problems have been declawed".

I don't even think that all cats that have been declawed have biting
problems - just that it's *very* likely that a cat that has been declawed
will.

Hugs,

CatNipped

whitershadeofpale
November 22nd 05, 03:35 AM
CatNipped wrote:

> I don't even think that all cats that have been declawed have biting
> problems - just that it's *very* likely that a cat that has been declawed
> will.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped

well make up your mind
mmm mmm mmm

you can't have it both ways

:0

whitershadeofpale
November 22nd 05, 03:37 AM
CatNipped wrote:

> I don't even think that all cats that have been declawed have biting
> problems - just that it's *very* likely that a cat that has been declawed
> will.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped

of course the topic IS Jekyll/Hyde

Elizabeth Blake
November 22nd 05, 04:23 AM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever complained
> about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws blood?
> --

Some have complained, as they also loudly say that they have cats and have
never had a cat bite them before. A couple of people have asked to see her
vaccination records (if you have a pet in a public place, ALWAYS make sure
they're up-to-date on shots as Harriet is) but many people just shrug it
off. I'd say that 80% of the people she's bitten were people who have
initiated contact with her, and she simply had enough. The rest were in the
wrong place at the wrong time, when Harriet was ****ed off about something
and took it out on whoever came along. We keep peroxide, band aids,
antibiotic ointment and gauze pads upstairs behind the cash registers. A
few months ago she bit a woman, and the woman left and came back with a
bottle of alcohol, I think, and told us to keep it handy.

We are worried that she might go after the wrong person, and we'll end up
being sued. Now if I know she's in one of her moods, I'll keep her locked
in my office. She used to spend at least half of the day upstairs in the
store, but since I got her the cat tree she prefers hanging out on it down
in the basement. She's never been a good jumper, but with the different
levels she can easily make it to the top and I think she really likes being
up high.

--
Liz

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:24 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> >
> > I cannot recommend my means of getting my cat to stop
> > biting me to the bone (literally) out of the blue, because I have
> > been told that it is abusive. But it really did work. She wound
> > up biting very gently and stopping that as soon as she heard
> > "OW." Then she would lick me like "oo, sorry, sorry ..."
> >
> > I believe something similar is the old loud "OW" and withdrawal.
> > But I am not sure if she would have to be attached in order for
> > that to work.
> >
> > (My allegedly abusive way was to swat her--very gently, like
> > a tap--in the side of the face and yell "OW." It did not hurt her
> > but it startled her enough that she stopped the dangerous biting.
> > I referred to this as a "slap" in other posts, and so it did sound
> > bad. She actually continued to bite, but just to the point before
> > it broke the skin. Then I'd say "OW, she would anticipate a
> > swat, and lick me instead. I think this is essentially what a mama
> > cat would do--swat, that is--if a baby got too rambunctious.
> > But I am not really sure now if I was being abusive or not,
> > since so many say I was.)
>
> It wasn't a "tap" the first time you posted about it - it was a "slap
> across the chops":
>
>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/7e4b46e3ebbabe55?dmode=source&hl=en
>
> Path:
> archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.sta nford.edu!headwall.s
> tanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giga news.com!nntp.gigane
> ws.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!cyclone.southeast.rr.c om!news-post.tampaba
> y.rr.com!twister.southeast.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750! not-for-mail
> From: "Mary" >
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> References: >
> >
> >
> et>
> Subject: Re: I'm at wit's end with my cat...
> Lines: 20
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
> Message-ID: >
> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:16:09 GMT
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.26.242.227
> X-Complaints-To:
> X-Trace: twister.southeast.rr.com 1070748969 66.26.242.227 (Sat, 06
> Dec 2003 17:16:09 EST)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 17:16:09 EST
> Organization: Road Runner - NC
>
>
> "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > In article >,
> > "ChakaShiva" > wrote:
> >
> > > So what do you do when he's got his teeth sunk deep into your hand
> and won't
> > > let go?
> > > Talk him gently out of it?
>
> Please. In this case you are allowed to slap the cat right across the
> chops. I had a hard biter--for two months. When she bit me, I yelled
> "OW!" and slapped her. Then I had a cat that gave me sweet little love
> bites and licked me as soon as she heard "OW." for 20 years.
>
> It should go without saying that I did not slap her hard enough to
> hurt her. But there, I've said it anyway.
>
> **end paste
>
> Evidently you now realize what you did was abusive and wrong, and now
> you have revised it into a "tap". Guilt has a way of doing that to
> people.
>
> -L.
>

You are so ruled. And so insane. I love thinking about you squinting over
your little screen. Googling away. Ahhh. :) What would you do without me,
fanboi?

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:29 AM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever complained
> about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws blood?
> --

I wondered this too. I would think there might be insurance liability
concerns.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 04:30 AM
"Tony P." > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >, says...
> >
> > "Richard Evans" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
> > > the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
> > > all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
> > > draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
> > >
> > > I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
> > > that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
> > > two-faced personality.
> >
> > I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
> > cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They
can
> > be really moody.
>
> I have a 25lb. fully claw intact cat that also has a biting thing. He
> doesn't bite hard enough to break skin, it's just a playful thing. So
> I'd say that correlation is off by a bit.
>

A correlation between an increase in biting in declawed cats
does not at all reflect upon if or how much intact cats bite.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 07:17 AM
cybercat wrote:
> You are so ruled. And so insane. I love thinking about you squinting over
> your little screen. Googling away. Ahhh. :)

Don't cream your panties yet. I have a staff. The multitudes revel in
making you squirm. Some you've never even met.

>What would you do without me,
> fanboi?

Wouldn't I like to find out...
-L.

Lumpy
November 22nd 05, 08:14 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> > You are so ruled. And so insane. I love thinking about you squinting
over
> > your little screen. Googling away. Ahhh. :)
>
> Don't cream your panties yet. I have a staff. The multitudes revel in
> making you squirm. Some you've never even met.
>
> >What would you do without me,
> > fanboi?
>
> Wouldn't I like to find out...
> -L.
>

I just cannot wait until he begins to read.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 08:26 AM
Lumpy wrote:
>
> I just cannot wait until he begins to read.

Don't be so hard on your husband. It's not his fault, you know.

-L.

November 22nd 05, 10:14 AM
The comment about them being moody rings
true.

I would be bloody moody too!
if you ripped my fingernails out from under my skin!!!

Joe Canuck
November 22nd 05, 12:27 PM
Tony P. wrote:

> In article >, says...
>
>>"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>I recently took into foster care a half-Siamese female, declawed on
>>>the front. She has a real Jekyll/Hyde personality. One minute she is
>>>all cuddles and purring, then out of the blue she bites hard enough to
>>>draw blood. Two minutes later she's back to cuddling and purring.
>>>
>>>I've had fosters that bit out of shyness or fear, and even ones that
>>>that were just generally aggressive, but this is the first with such a
>>>two-faced personality.
>>
>>I assume you are familiar with the correlation between declawed
>>cats and biting, right? And this poor girl is part Siamese, too. They can
>>be really moody.
>
>
> I have a 25lb. fully claw intact cat that also has a biting thing. He
> doesn't bite hard enough to break skin, it's just a playful thing. So
> I'd say that correlation is off by a bit.
>
>

Based on your ONE example? No, I don't think so.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 06:02 PM
> wrote in message
...
> The comment about them being moody rings
> true.
>
> I would be bloody moody too!
> if you ripped my fingernails out from under my skin!!!
>
>

I was talking about Siamese cats being moody. But, yes. It is unimaginable
what it would be like to be a cat and wake up declawed.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 06:12 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
> > > "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
>
> That's weird. I didn't write what was below about a biting cat or having
> one for 20 years. Misattribution?
> --

Just like I have never posted as ChakaShiva--or ever used the word
"chops" to refer to a mouth.

It's a simple smear campaign.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 06:28 PM
Diane wrote:
> In article >, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
> > > "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
>
> That's weird. I didn't write what was below about a biting cat or having
> one for 20 years. Misattribution?

Look at the headers. Mary/Toppaz/cybercat/Lumpy misquoted you when she
replied. Go look at the original - the link is there.

-L.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 06:31 PM
-L. wrote:
> Diane wrote:
> > In article >, "cybercat" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> > > > ink.net...
> >
> > That's weird. I didn't write what was below about a biting cat or having
> > one for 20 years. Misattribution?
>
> Look at the headers. Mary/Toppaz/cybercat/Lumpy misquoted you when she
> replied. Go look at the original - the link is there.
>
> -L.

-L.
November 22nd 05, 07:02 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "Diane" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "cybercat" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > "Diane L. Schirf" > wrote in message
> > > > ink.net...
> >
> > That's weird. I didn't write what was below about a biting cat or having
> > one for 20 years. Misattribution?
> > --
>
> Just like I have never posted as ChakaShiva--or ever used the word
> "chops" to refer to a mouth.
>
> It's a simple smear campaign.

Archive doesn't lie, Piggy Grrl. Just follow the link.and look at the
header Or are you now claiming you aren't "Mary"? <snicker>

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/7e4b46e3ebbabe55?dmode=source&hl=en

-L.

Willow
November 22nd 05, 07:06 PM
LOL Poor baby..

Stuffed catnip toy? That's a favorite here and isn't too intimidating.. the
idea is to distract the cat.. anything the cat's interested in would work..

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"Richard Evans" > wrote in message
...
> "Willow" > wrote:
>
> >Get a little mouse with a jiggle in it..
> >
>
> I tried a peaock feather and it scared the bejeezus out of her.

cybercat
November 22nd 05, 07:11 PM
"Willow" > wrote in message
om...
> LOL Poor baby..
>
> Stuffed catnip toy? That's a favorite here and isn't too intimidating..
the
> idea is to distract the cat.. anything the cat's interested in would
work..
>

If she is the kind of cat that is drawn to catnip, that might do the trick.
Fatcat Toys has a brand of catnip that seems to affect my girls more
than any other. I love their toys, too.

http://fatcats.com/html_site/hhome.shtml

snowdog30
November 22nd 05, 08:34 PM
It's temperment and kitten-hood is to blame, no amount of "training"
will help.
Just don't breed it or have it Fixed if you don't want more of that
type. :->

~John

Willow
November 24th 05, 02:52 PM
People generally don't think that way though, I had a customer back home who
roughly pushed my dog out of his way, without question, without warning. Pud
only gave a warning snap, didn't even bite, and then he went behind the
counter to get away.

Pud had been "working" with me for months, customers loved him, he loved
everybody and their dogs. He was not in any shape or form an agressive dog.

The guy called my boss, treatened to sue and made a huge fuss about how
stupid it was to have a pittbull in a public place.

No matter how much I explained, as did the other customers who were there, I
was force to leave my dog at home or quit my job (I did the latter, ain't
working without my doggie !)

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "Elizabeth Blake" > wrote:
>
> > "Diane" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever complained
> > > about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws
blood?
> > > --
> >
> > Some have complained, as they also loudly say that they have cats and
have
> > never had a cat bite them before.
>
> Well, that's bizarre reasoning.
>
> > A couple of people have asked to see her
> > vaccination records (if you have a pet in a public place, ALWAYS make
sure
> > they're up-to-date on shots as Harriet is) but many people just shrug it
> > off. I'd say that 80% of the people she's bitten were people who have
> > initiated contact with her, and she simply had enough. The rest were in
the
> > wrong place at the wrong time, when Harriet was ****ed off about
something
> > and took it out on whoever came along. We keep peroxide, band aids,
> > antibiotic ointment and gauze pads upstairs behind the cash registers.
A
> > few months ago she bit a woman, and the woman left and came back with a
> > bottle of alcohol, I think, and told us to keep it handy.
>
> Well, it sounds like she feels better now that her health problems are
> under control, so understandably she's not as cranky.
>
> It's interesting to me how, when Hodge has gotten into the hallway, if
> anyone is there they will reach out to pet him without ascertaining if
> it's okay (from him). I think I mentioned in the old building a woman
> picked him up and brought him downstairs and was petting him, and I told
> her that to watch out, he does bite, and she said something like, "Oh,
> no, not this sweet boy ---- YROWCH!" She couldn't say I didn't warn her.
> :) He'd had enough. :)
>
> If I see a friendly looking dog, I'll ask first if petting is okay. 99
> percent of the time, the owner will say yes, but sometimes they say the
> dog is a bit touchy.
> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/
>

No More Retail
November 24th 05, 03:02 PM
Your lucky Willow here in Florida some areas they would have seized the dog
and put him to sleep just because he was a pit-bull. A lot of issues about
pit bull are hitting the media. They don't play anymore down here with so
many pit-bull attacks; they just seize the dog and you lose your friend it
sucks in situations like that
"Willow" > wrote in message
et...
> People generally don't think that way though, I had a customer back home
> who
> roughly pushed my dog out of his way, without question, without warning.
> Pud
> only gave a warning snap, didn't even bite, and then he went behind the
> counter to get away.
>
> Pud had been "working" with me for months, customers loved him, he loved
> everybody and their dogs. He was not in any shape or form an agressive
> dog.
>
> The guy called my boss, treatened to sue and made a huge fuss about how
> stupid it was to have a pittbull in a public place.
>
> No matter how much I explained, as did the other customers who were there,
> I
> was force to leave my dog at home or quit my job (I did the latter, ain't
> working without my doggie !)
>
> --
> Will~
>
> "... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."
>
> Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.
>
>
> "Diane" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article et>,
>> "Elizabeth Blake" > wrote:
>>
>> > "Diane" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever complained
>> > > about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws
> blood?
>> > > --
>> >
>> > Some have complained, as they also loudly say that they have cats and
> have
>> > never had a cat bite them before.
>>
>> Well, that's bizarre reasoning.
>>
>> > A couple of people have asked to see her
>> > vaccination records (if you have a pet in a public place, ALWAYS make
> sure
>> > they're up-to-date on shots as Harriet is) but many people just shrug
>> > it
>> > off. I'd say that 80% of the people she's bitten were people who have
>> > initiated contact with her, and she simply had enough. The rest were
>> > in
> the
>> > wrong place at the wrong time, when Harriet was ****ed off about
> something
>> > and took it out on whoever came along. We keep peroxide, band aids,
>> > antibiotic ointment and gauze pads upstairs behind the cash registers.
> A
>> > few months ago she bit a woman, and the woman left and came back with a
>> > bottle of alcohol, I think, and told us to keep it handy.
>>
>> Well, it sounds like she feels better now that her health problems are
>> under control, so understandably she's not as cranky.
>>
>> It's interesting to me how, when Hodge has gotten into the hallway, if
>> anyone is there they will reach out to pet him without ascertaining if
>> it's okay (from him). I think I mentioned in the old building a woman
>> picked him up and brought him downstairs and was petting him, and I told
>> her that to watch out, he does bite, and she said something like, "Oh,
>> no, not this sweet boy ---- YROWCH!" She couldn't say I didn't warn her.
>> :) He'd had enough. :)
>>
>> If I see a friendly looking dog, I'll ask first if petting is okay. 99
>> percent of the time, the owner will say yes, but sometimes they say the
>> dog is a bit touchy.
>> --
>> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
>> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
>> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/
>>
>
>

Willow
November 27th 05, 06:39 AM
There's no such law back home (yet). Here in California they are trying to
enforce the obligation to neuter (and/or spay) Pitts. To be honest, not that
I wanna start a debate, obviously I love pitts, but there's so many idiots
out there who don't have a clue how to handle them, or don't care that I
understand why so many people are scared.

I can't say I'm too brave when I meet a pitt I don't know (or any large
strong dog for that matter) because you never know who's the idiot at the
other end of the leash..

If they love them so darned much why don't they get them neutered, trained
and socialized?

Sorry I know this is a cat ng.. but there's a lot about pitts going on in
California too and it makes me maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, Pud and later Mira were
such good puppies !

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"No More Retail" > wrote in message
. ..
> Your lucky Willow here in Florida some areas they would have seized the
dog
> and put him to sleep just because he was a pit-bull. A lot of issues
about
> pit bull are hitting the media. They don't play anymore down here with so
> many pit-bull attacks; they just seize the dog and you lose your friend
it
> sucks in situations like that
> "Willow" > wrote in message
> et...
> > People generally don't think that way though, I had a customer back home
> > who
> > roughly pushed my dog out of his way, without question, without warning.
> > Pud
> > only gave a warning snap, didn't even bite, and then he went behind the
> > counter to get away.
> >
> > Pud had been "working" with me for months, customers loved him, he loved
> > everybody and their dogs. He was not in any shape or form an agressive
> > dog.
> >
> > The guy called my boss, treatened to sue and made a huge fuss about how
> > stupid it was to have a pittbull in a public place.
> >
> > No matter how much I explained, as did the other customers who were
there,
> > I
> > was force to leave my dog at home or quit my job (I did the latter,
ain't
> > working without my doggie !)
> >
> > --
> > Will~
> >
> > "... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."
> >
> > Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.
> >
> >
> > "Diane" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> In article et>,
> >> "Elizabeth Blake" > wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Diane" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > > Liz, just out of curiosity, have any of the customers ever
complained
> >> > > about Harriet (especially since you mention that she often draws
> > blood?
> >> > > --
> >> >
> >> > Some have complained, as they also loudly say that they have cats and
> > have
> >> > never had a cat bite them before.
> >>
> >> Well, that's bizarre reasoning.
> >>
> >> > A couple of people have asked to see her
> >> > vaccination records (if you have a pet in a public place, ALWAYS make
> > sure
> >> > they're up-to-date on shots as Harriet is) but many people just shrug
> >> > it
> >> > off. I'd say that 80% of the people she's bitten were people who
have
> >> > initiated contact with her, and she simply had enough. The rest were
> >> > in
> > the
> >> > wrong place at the wrong time, when Harriet was ****ed off about
> > something
> >> > and took it out on whoever came along. We keep peroxide, band aids,
> >> > antibiotic ointment and gauze pads upstairs behind the cash
registers.
> > A
> >> > few months ago she bit a woman, and the woman left and came back with
a
> >> > bottle of alcohol, I think, and told us to keep it handy.
> >>
> >> Well, it sounds like she feels better now that her health problems are
> >> under control, so understandably she's not as cranky.
> >>
> >> It's interesting to me how, when Hodge has gotten into the hallway, if
> >> anyone is there they will reach out to pet him without ascertaining if
> >> it's okay (from him). I think I mentioned in the old building a woman
> >> picked him up and brought him downstairs and was petting him, and I
told
> >> her that to watch out, he does bite, and she said something like, "Oh,
> >> no, not this sweet boy ---- YROWCH!" She couldn't say I didn't warn
her.
> >> :) He'd had enough. :)
> >>
> >> If I see a friendly looking dog, I'll ask first if petting is okay. 99
> >> percent of the time, the owner will say yes, but sometimes they say the
> >> dog is a bit touchy.
> >> --
> >> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> >> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> >> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Willow
November 27th 05, 06:41 AM
Of course.. and if one fails to have that basic courtesy, one shouldn't
startle a dog by kneeing him out of one's way and yelling at it.

I would have done more than a warning snap if he had done that to me ! It's
been years and I'm still all mad about it!

--
Will~

"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."

Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.


"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Willow" > wrote:
>
> > People generally don't think that way though, I had a customer back home
who
> > roughly pushed my dog out of his way, without question, without warning.
Pud
> > only gave a warning snap, didn't even bite, and then he went behind the
> > counter to get away.
>
> One reason for asking about petting a dog -- some have arthritic or
> other sore spots that family members know to avoid.
>
> In general, I just think it's common sense courtesy. I would never touch
> someone without their permission (ask women who've been pregnant how
> many people touch them WITHOUT permission -- a lot -- like being
> pregnant means one is a public resource or something. So I ask people if
> it's okay to pet the dog. The dog usually understands, too.
> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/
>