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View Full Version : Urinary tract crystals - causes


Rhino
November 23rd 05, 02:05 PM
My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the
space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I
noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up,
just to see if it had been peed on.

The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on
Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that
time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test
results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special
food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple
of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.

The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her
anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few
days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other
cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely
that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
period could cause Samba problems.

It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of her
meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could have
eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the
source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other
sources of things besides food that might cause crystals.

For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the
morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface
sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting a
bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested
finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is something
that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility.

The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my
food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may
be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any
specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at
least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And
I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in the
world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs.

I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats on
a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet simply
be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of
cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d,
http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63388&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395204707&bmUID=1132753700242&bmLocale=en_CA,
c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid
urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That
certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_ the
absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description on
their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that
crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d
developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit.

I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if anyone
can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for
her than c/d, I'd love to hear it.

Rhino

MaryL
November 23rd 05, 02:27 PM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
> crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
> few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
> eats only Hill's c/d.
> Rhino
>

If that is really what your vet said, then it seems that it is time for a
new vet. Diet can *reduce* the possibility of crystals, but I have never
heard anyone else say that a cat "can't get crystals" merely because of a
specific diet.

MaryL

---MIKE---
November 23rd 05, 03:35 PM
Rhino wrote:

>>I would dearly love to prevent any
>> future bouts of this problem so if
>> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
>> formation or a food that would be
>> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
>> it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

November 23rd 05, 05:12 PM
---MIKE--- wrote:
> Rhino wrote:
>
> >>I would dearly love to prevent any
> >> future bouts of this problem so if
> >> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
> >> formation or a food that would be
> >> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
> >> it.
>
> Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
> high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
> and could help prevent formation of crystals.
>
>
> ---MIKE---
> >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
> >> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

It comes in dry and canned varieties. There are 3 flavors of Feline
c/d canned.

PawsForThought
November 23rd 05, 06:11 PM
---MIKE--- wrote:
> Rhino wrote:
>
> >>I would dearly love to prevent any
> >> future bouts of this problem so if
> >> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
> >> formation or a food that would be
> >> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
> >> it.
>
> Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
> high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
> and could help prevent formation of crystals.

I agree with Mike. I would definitely try her on a canned diet, maybe
another brand from Hill's and see how she does.

Rhonda
November 23rd 05, 06:31 PM
Hello Rhino,

Did the vet say that they were struvite crystals in particular? There
are a couple of different kinds.

Struvite can form if the urine is too akaline. One thing that makes
urine go akaline is stress. Any extra stresses for her right now? Any
other cats picking on her? C/d is supposed to help make the urine more
acidic.

If her urine is too acidic, calcium oxalate crystals can form.

Did she have a bacterial infection too either time, or just the crystals?

Good luck finding the answer,

Rhonda

Rhino wrote:

> This
> week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
> been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.

Steve Crane
November 23rd 05, 07:05 PM
Rhino wrote:
> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the
> space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
> the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I
> noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
> such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up,
> just to see if it had been peed on.

Rhino,
Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
that they are still struvite crystals? As cats get older the risks
change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts
which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx
formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals
are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your
best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise
me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d
instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem
as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms.

November 24th 05, 01:36 AM
Rhino wrote:
> The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on
> Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
> actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that
> time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test
> results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special
> food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple
> of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
> week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
> been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.
>
> The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
> crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
> few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
> eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her
> anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
> has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few
> days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other
> cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
> mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
> last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely
> that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
> period could cause Samba problems.

I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
prescription foods for a purpose. I was furious with the vet for not
pointing out that risks involved and stones are more dangerous and may
require surgery as compared to crystals. This cat was put on a low ash
diet - don't know the food, I was not there later, and is now doing
fine, no surgery and no urinary problems and inappropriate urinating
problems.

I might aim for a very low phosphorus canned food that is fairly well
regarded. Science Diet makes some good ones as do others. These are the
premium brands. There are those that are low phosphorus and aimed for
urinary problems. I would also make sure the cat is drinking sufficient
water which could be a culprit here. How? FRESH water, not those water
fountains. Fresh water that is filtered, not tap water. And sometimes
put out fresh water and NO FOOD until she drinks. I sometimes do that
with my cat. She meows and what not but then drinks the water just to
have something to do in the morning until the food appears.

Are they very sure what is the problem here? Crystals or a stone or
what?

You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

I am not a vet nor have a whole lot of experience. But the experience I
have is not good with vets. And I am now a bit suspicious of the
prescription foods by Science Diet since finding out that high fat can
cause other problems. It's not all that simple.

I would not be surprised if the s/d caused problems. If your vet is
baffled, he may not be that well versed. I am wondering if she is
developing a stone because of the high fat content of these special
diets as happened with the cat kitty-sat for a few weeks.

Vets and this was a super special cat vet who was miffed when I told
her that her practice never said anything about the high fat content.

Steve Crane
November 24th 05, 02:22 AM
wrote:
> Rhino wrote:

> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
> forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
> limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
> prescription foods for a purpose.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.

> You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
> safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
> had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
> and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
> prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
etc.

Steve Crane
November 24th 05, 03:02 AM
wrote:
> Rhino wrote:

> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
> forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
> limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
> prescription foods for a purpose.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.

> You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
> safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
> had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
> and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
> prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
etc.

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:11 PM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
news:J%[email protected]
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
>> crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
>> few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
>> eats only Hill's c/d.
>> Rhino
>>
>
> If that is really what your vet said, then it seems that it is time for a
> new vet. Diet can *reduce* the possibility of crystals, but I have never
> heard anyone else say that a cat "can't get crystals" merely because of a
> specific diet.
>
I wonder if the salesman who convinced my vet to carry the Hill's
prescription foods exaggerated the benefits of c/d and s/d and made them
sound like 100% guarantees when they are really just a good food that
reduces crystal formation....

Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:11 PM
Samba is getting a dry c/d based on chicken and rice.

Rhino

"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:

>>I would dearly love to prevent any
>> future bouts of this problem so if
>> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
>> formation or a food that would be
>> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
>> it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:17 PM
Do you mean that I should switch her to a wet food AFTER Samba finishes the
Orbax antibiotic and the s/d dry food the vet prescribed so that the wet
food is her full time food? Or are you suggesting I ignore the vet's advice
and put her on wet food right away, presumably while taking the Orbax until
it is finished?

Rhino

"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:

>>I would dearly love to prevent any
>> future bouts of this problem so if
>> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
>> formation or a food that would be
>> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
>> it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:23 PM
I'm afraid the vet didn't give me any details on the particular type of
crystals in her urine. He might tell me if I ask him but I don't know. I
could try though if you think it is a good idea.

I'm not sure if she had a bacterial infection in either case. The vet
prescribed Orbax both times; does that suggest an answer? I'm not sure what
Orbax actually does.....

As for stresses, no, I don't think she's under any special stress now. All
of us in this house, Samba, the other cat Bebop, and I, lead a pretty quiet
low-stress life :-) Samba and Bebop have occasional fights and very
occasionally there is actually some crying or yelping when someone gets too
rough but it's a rare day that they don't lie down together to sleep with
one another (and me) for at least part of the day. There are no other pets
or humans in the house.

Rhino

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Rhino,
>
> Did the vet say that they were struvite crystals in particular? There are
> a couple of different kinds.
>
> Struvite can form if the urine is too akaline. One thing that makes urine
> go akaline is stress. Any extra stresses for her right now? Any other cats
> picking on her? C/d is supposed to help make the urine more acidic.
>
> If her urine is too acidic, calcium oxalate crystals can form.
>
> Did she have a bacterial infection too either time, or just the crystals?
>
> Good luck finding the answer,
>
> Rhonda
>
> Rhino wrote:
>
>> This week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and
>> she has been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.
>

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:26 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
>> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over
>> the
>> space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
>> the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the
>> towel. I
>> noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
>> such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it
>> up,
>> just to see if it had been peed on.
>
> Rhino,
> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
> that they are still struvite crystals?

He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he
examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab
report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can try....

> As cats get older the risks
> change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts
> which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx
> formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals
> are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your
> best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise
> me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d
> instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem
> as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms.
>
Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 02:38 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> Rhino wrote:
>
>> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
>> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
>> forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
>> limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
>> prescription foods for a purpose.
>
> Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
> stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
> designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
> stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
> calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
> foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
> the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.
>
My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house,
Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see if
she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However, he
did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on
s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because
she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he intends
that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those
deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet.

>> You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
>> safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
>> had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
>> and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
>> prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.
>
> Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
> canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
> range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
> crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
> etc.
>
But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the s/d?

Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any symptoms
of urinary tract issues himself but he has always received the exact same
diet as Samba. They are the same age give or take a couple of weeks but are
apparently unrelated; I got them both from the animal shelter on the same
visit. I'm wondering if I should be doing anything about his diet after they
are finished with the s/d?

A small side issue is that I bought a new 10 lb bag of dry c/d last weekend,
opened the bag and gave Bebop and Samba a few servings of it before they got
their annual shots and the urinary tract infection was diagnosed. It's
beginning to sound like I won't ever be giving them c/d dry again; should I
find someone to give the c/d to?

Rhino

November 24th 05, 02:54 PM
Rhino wrote:
> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Rhino wrote:
> >> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
> >> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over
> >> the
> >> space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
> >> the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the
> >> towel. I
> >> noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
> >> such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it
> >> up,
> >> just to see if it had been peed on.
> >
> > Rhino,
> > Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
> > that they are still struvite crystals?
>
> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he
> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab
> report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can try....
>
> > As cats get older the risks
> > change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts
> > which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx
> > formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals
> > are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your
> > best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise
> > me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d
> > instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem
> > as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms.
> >
> Rhino

I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored
as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be
surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab. If he
did sent this out to a lab, there would be a lab report. You are afraid
to ask for the lab report then? You need to speak up for the safety of
your cat.

November 24th 05, 02:58 PM
Rhino wrote:
> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > wrote:
> >> Rhino wrote:
> >
> >> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
> >> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
> >> forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
> >> limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
> >> prescription foods for a purpose.
> >
> > Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
> > stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
> > designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
> > stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
> > calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
> > foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
> > the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.
> >
> My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house,
> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see if
> she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However, he
> did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on
> s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because
> she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he intends
> that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those
> deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet.

Are you aware that s/d can cause a bigger problem with calcium stones
that we discussed above? Stones can require surgery. Think $1000. I
wonder about the competence of your vet to put her on s/d permanently.
Do you understand the point that is being made? s/d can cause stones
because of its low pH content.

Steve Crane
November 24th 05, 04:06 PM
wrote:
> Rhino wrote:
> I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored
> as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be
> surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab.


That's very true. Any urine left alone at room temperature long enough
will crystallize. Typically the clinic will take a quick look in a
microscope immediately after drawing the urine. The labs job is
determine crystal type more thoroughly. In a way the growth of crystals
really isn't too much of concern to the lab, since the primary task is
to determine type. Most clinics will send urine samples out to a lab
for several additional diagnostic activities and to confirm their own
analysis. I would be more surprised if the clinic did not send samples
out to a lab.

Steve Crane
November 24th 05, 04:16 PM
Rhino wrote:
> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> ups.com...

> But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the s/d?

That depend supon what your vet thinks is best for your cat. Your vet
is the only one that knows all the particulars about your cat. It is
impossible for anyone else to make the right judgment call - they don't
have anywhere near the details and information your vet has.


> Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any symptoms
> of urinary tract issues himself but he has always received the exact same
> diet as Samba. They are the same age give or take a couple of weeks but are
> apparently unrelated; I got them both from the animal shelter on the same
> visit. I'm wondering if I should be doing anything about his diet after they
> are finished with the s/d?
>
> A small side issue is that I bought a new 10 lb bag of dry c/d last weekend,
> opened the bag and gave Bebop and Samba a few servings of it before they got
> their annual shots and the urinary tract infection was diagnosed. It's
> beginning to sound like I won't ever be giving them c/d dry again; should I
> find someone to give the c/d to?


I wouldn't worry about that - use the dry food as treats for an
occasional meal when your gone for a day etc. Crystals don't develop
overnight, nor as a result of a single days feeding, it takes time to
cause this problem. It is a very rare cat - with STRUVITE crystal
formation problems that has any problem with dry c/d. In most cases I
have seen over the past 20 plus years, the cat had access to some other
foods or the water supply was so loaded with magnesium that it offset
the value of the food.

Rhino
November 24th 05, 07:10 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Rhino" > wrote:
>
>> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he
>> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab
>> report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can
>> try....
>
> Why wouldn't he tell you? It's important to know.
>
> Your veterinarian is a physician for animals. Would your physician say,
> "You have a disease." "What disease?" "Oh, I'm not going to tell you."?
> :)

I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that I
am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall that
he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no
knowledge of veterinary science. I know that at least one veterinarian,
Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup but I'm not sure if anyone who
has responded in this thread has any more knowledge of veterinary medicine
than I do. I don't want put my ver in the position of feeling that he is
being second-guessed by people with far fewer qualifications than he has.

Having said that, I know that everyone profession graduates some quacks so
I'm using this newsgroup as sort of a sanity check to see if he is missing
something.

Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 07:16 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > Rhino wrote:
>> >> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six
>> >> months,
>> >> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals.
>> >> Over
>> >> the
>> >> space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel
>> >> off
>> >> the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the
>> >> towel. I
>> >> noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the
>> >> first
>> >> such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging
>> >> it
>> >> up,
>> >> just to see if it had been peed on.
>> >
>> > Rhino,
>> > Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
>> > that they are still struvite crystals?
>>
>> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he
>> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab
>> report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can
>> try....
>>
>> > As cats get older the risks
>> > change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts
>> > which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx
>> > formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals
>> > are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your
>> > best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise
>> > me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d
>> > instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem
>> > as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms.
>> >
>> Rhino
>
> I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored
> as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be
> surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab. If he
> did sent this out to a lab, there would be a lab report. You are afraid
> to ask for the lab report then? You need to speak up for the safety of
> your cat.
>
The vet and his assistant squeezed Samba's bladder to get a urine sample
while I watched a few steps away. I saw the vet use a syringe to pour off
some of the excess urine and then to transfer the cloudiest bit of the urine
into a specimen container of some kind. He told his assistant to send the
sample to the lab while I was there. I did not see him inspect the sample
with a microscope, although he did eyeball it. He may have examined the
sample himself before sending the sample out but it didn't happen while I
was there. The specimen was taken at 4 PM and he phoned me with the results
at 10 AM the next morning. I don't know where the lab is but assuming that
at least some time was involved in getting it to the lab and running the
test, that doesn't leave much time for his own examination of the sample.

I'm quite willing to speak up on Samba's behalf but I'm not sure how to ask
him without making him feel second-guessed by someone with far less training
than he has. (See my reply to Dianne elsewhere in this thread.)

Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 07:19 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> Rhino wrote:
>> I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored
>> as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be
>> surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab.
>
>
> That's very true. Any urine left alone at room temperature long enough
> will crystallize. Typically the clinic will take a quick look in a
> microscope immediately after drawing the urine. The labs job is
> determine crystal type more thoroughly. In a way the growth of crystals
> really isn't too much of concern to the lab, since the primary task is
> to determine type. Most clinics will send urine samples out to a lab
> for several additional diagnostic activities and to confirm their own
> analysis. I would be more surprised if the clinic did not send samples
> out to a lab.
>
I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the
events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard
operating procedure" to you?

By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound as
if you might.

Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 07:22 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >> Rhino wrote:
>> >
>> >> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
>> >> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
>> >> forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
>> >> limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
>> >> prescription foods for a purpose.
>> >
>> > Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
>> > stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
>> > designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
>> > stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
>> > calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
>> > foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
>> > the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.
>> >
>> My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house,
>> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see
>> if
>> she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However,
>> he
>> did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on
>> s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because
>> she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he
>> intends
>> that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those
>> deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet.
>
> Are you aware that s/d can cause a bigger problem with calcium stones
> that we discussed above? Stones can require surgery. Think $1000. I
> wonder about the competence of your vet to put her on s/d permanently.
> Do you understand the point that is being made? s/d can cause stones
> because of its low pH content.
>
As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet of
s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just didn't
discuss them at length; I don't think he wanted to spend a lot of time on
the phone discussing "what ifs" when he was relatively hopeful that the
antibiotic and short term s/d diet would solve the problem. I think he
intended to revisit this question when and if Samba had further problems
after the antibiotics and s/d diet had run their course.

Rhino

Rhino
November 24th 05, 08:00 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>
>> But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the
>> s/d?
>
> That depend supon what your vet thinks is best for your cat. Your vet
> is the only one that knows all the particulars about your cat. It is
> impossible for anyone else to make the right judgment call - they don't
> have anywhere near the details and information your vet has.
>
Agreed. I'm trying very hard to give my vet the benefit of the doubt and
assume he knows what he's doing. He may be misinformed about the merits of
c/d though; it appears he has an exaggerated belief in the effectiveness of
c/d in preventing crystals.
>
>> Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any
>> symptoms
>> of urinary tract issues himself but he has always received the exact same
>> diet as Samba. They are the same age give or take a couple of weeks but
>> are
>> apparently unrelated; I got them both from the animal shelter on the same
>> visit. I'm wondering if I should be doing anything about his diet after
>> they
>> are finished with the s/d?
>>
>> A small side issue is that I bought a new 10 lb bag of dry c/d last
>> weekend,
>> opened the bag and gave Bebop and Samba a few servings of it before they
>> got
>> their annual shots and the urinary tract infection was diagnosed. It's
>> beginning to sound like I won't ever be giving them c/d dry again; should
>> I
>> find someone to give the c/d to?
>
>
> I wouldn't worry about that - use the dry food as treats for an
> occasional meal when your gone for a day etc.

It would take a *long* time to use it up I think :-)

I have never given Samba and Bebop treats. I've always been concerned that
it would encourage them to beg for treats and maybe even lead them towards
being overweight. I realize that a quality treat is likely to minimize any
health risk from the food but isn't there a danger I will make moochers of
them if I give treats? Or, to put it another way, when is it okay to give
treats?

Samba and Bebop always eat the food I put out for them right away; they
don't nibble a bit and then come back repeatedly over the next several hours
like most cats. I believe that this is because of something I tried briefly
when I first got them: someone on this newsgroup suggested that I put food
down for only a half hour, then discard anything left over. Supposedly, this
would cause better bonding between me and the cats. But it simply made them
eat everything very quickly - less than 5 minutes for a quarter cup of c/d -
and I haven't been able to break them of this habit of eating quickly, even
though I stopped picking up their food after only a few weeks. (When they
stay at my mother's place they eat some of their food, then come back a few
times to finish the rest but nothing I've done at my place has broken them
of the eat-it-fast-mentality. I recently had the kitchen floor replaced and
made a point of feeding them in new place, a few feet away, and with new
dishes but even that didn't break their fast eating habit.) So, if I put a
few meals worth of c/d out for them and then left them alone for a day or
two, they'd eat it all in the first five minutes then be hungry once they'd
digested that.

> Crystals don't develop
> overnight, nor as a result of a single days feeding, it takes time to
> cause this problem. It is a very rare cat - with STRUVITE crystal
> formation problems that has any problem with dry c/d. In most cases I
> have seen over the past 20 plus years, the cat had access to some other
> foods or the water supply was so loaded with magnesium that it offset
> the value of the food.
>
The water supply is something I hadn't considered, which is the main reason
I posted in the first place :-) I can contact the city and see if they have
numbers for the magnesium concentration in the water. I just checked the box
and the Brita filter (model 0B07) makes no claims about reducing magnesium.

Thanks for this suggestion! I'll look into this and report back when I have
an answer....

Rhino

November 24th 05, 08:04 PM
Rhino wrote:
> I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that I
> am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall that
> he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no
> knowledge of veterinary science. I know that at least one veterinarian,
> Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup but I'm not sure if anyone who
> has responded in this thread has any more knowledge of veterinary medicine
> than I do. I don't want put my ver in the position of feeling that he is
> being second-guessed by people with far fewer qualifications than he has.

Does the diploma on the wall say that he is a vet who is board
certified or that he is just a vet? Does he specialize in felines? Why
do you say that Phil is a vet? Did Phl ever say he was a vet? Where do
you get that information? You need more precision in what you say when
you deal with illness.

As far as someone having the same knowledge as you do, we can't make a
decision because you have not presented any information aside from the
fact that your cat has problems, possibly crystals and is using s/d or
c/d.

You have access to the internet. You said your vet was thinking of
using s/d long term. Why not look up on the internet if that is a good
idea or bad or sometimes a good idea. S. Crane who responded here that
its low pH could precipitate stones knows something. He is not a vet
but he works for the company that makes that product. He works for
Science Diet. He knows something. Why not call Science Diet and ask for
help. Ask them if it's a good idea and when to provide s/d on a
permanent basis. Can you do that?

We are going by what you said. If you don't feel we are qualified; it's
mainly because you are not giving any real factual information. It's
not our fault that you do not ask questions, very, very basic
questions. Some of us might not have a vet diploma on the wall but we
have more experience in science than almost any vet you will ever come
across in your entire life.

I think you are criticizing us because we are pointing out that you are
not doing very basic things. You are not looking up on the internet
what is and what is not about s/d or c/d. Have you done a basic search
yet? I doubt it because then you would know that s/d is usually, almost
usually, a short term process. If your vet is going to use this long
term, is he aware that there could be complications from its low pH or
fat content. I had a problem with s/d. But I don't have a diploma on
the wall that says "vet" - should I refuse to answer your post then? In
the future, I will try to avoid your posts since you do not appreciate
our trying to help you in spite of yourself.

I regret taking the time to answer yours posts. It is obviously a waste
of time. You seem unable to process simple information like s/d is not
a good idea for long term use especially since your vet is not giving
you specifics. There's nothing more I can do if you cannot process
logical statements, now is there? I'm surprised because usually
computer people know simple logic.

If you want a newsgroup that has more "qualifications" I suggest you go
to the vet newsgroup. How's that? Go to a newsgroup which is peopled
with vets who have diplomas on the wall. Sound reasonable? A vet
newsgroup, that is, a veterinary newsgroup. For vets but they take lay
questions. Or used to when I last used them.

I don't mean to be testy but your post put me in a bad mood. I feed sad
when I read posts like yours which have very limited information and
makes everybody look bad.

Happy Thanksgiving

Phil P.
November 25th 05, 01:50 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
. ..
> Do you mean that I should switch her to a wet food AFTER Samba finishes
the
> Orbax antibiotic and the s/d dry food the vet prescribed so that the wet
> food is her full time food? Or are you suggesting I ignore the vet's
advice
> and put her on wet food right away, presumably while taking the Orbax
until
> it is finished?

I don't think you should discontinue s/d without consulting your vet. But I
do think you might want to ask your vet for the canned version of s/d and
possibly later, canned c/d. Even though the dry and canned versions are
similarly formulated, the canned versions are more efficacious.

Canned diets generally increase the cat's total daily water intake and urine
volume which in turn reduces the concentration of the solutes in the urine,
especially the crystalline substances, and makes it easier for them to pass.
Also, the higher daily water intake results in more frequent urination,
which in turn gets rid of tiny crystalline particles before they can
aggregate or accrete into larger and larger particles that can eventually
become crystals or stones. The longer that crystalline particles remain in
the urinary tract, the larger they can grow.

After she's clear of crystals, she could probably be maintained on a good
commercial diet and a twice-a-day feeding pattern. Try to find a good
meat-based canned food that doesn't contain a lot of plant material. Meat
naturally acidifies the urine whereas plant material has an alkalinizing
effect- which can promote the formation of struvite. Also, feeding twice a
day allows the cat's natural urine acidity to return between meals and
dissolve struvite particles.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 25th 05, 01:58 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
. ..

> I'm not sure if she had a bacterial infection in either case. The vet
> prescribed Orbax both times; does that suggest an answer?


Possible but not probable- unless the vet had the crystals cultured for
bacterial growth. Infection-induced struvite can be caused by a bacterial
urinary tract infection. However, *true* bacterial UTIs in cats are
actually uncommon because of the high osmolality and acidity of feline urine
and multiple host defense mechanisms of the cat. Most UTIs in cats are
misdiagnoses
because the urine was obtained by voiding and thus contaminated by bacteria
that normally inhabit the distal urinary tract. When UTIs do occur in cats,
they're usually found in cats with predisposing factors (e.g., older age,
CRF, diabetes, immunocompromise). Females are more susceptible to
infections because the
infection has a shorter distance to travel.

If your vet obtained the urine sample via expressing her bladder, the sample
wasn't suitable for culture because it was probably contaminated.

I'm not sure what
> Orbax actually does.....

Its an antibiotic that's in the same drug class as Baytril (fluoroquinolone
class)- only safer and probably more effective against the bacteria that's
most commonly associated with UTIs in cats.

Many crystals and stones found in cats are actually "plugs" rather than true
crystals. Plugs are something like Fruit Jello- where the crystalloid
particles would analogous to the fruit and plug matrix would be analogous to
the Jello. Plug matrix is usually composed of sloughed tissue, dead cells
and debris and thought to follow UTIs. If your vet founds plugs or plug
matrix in the urine, he might have prescribed Orbax on the speculation that
your cat has a UTI.

Phil

Phil P.
November 25th 05, 02:00 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
. ..

> My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house,
> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see
if
> she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However, he
> did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on
> s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because
> she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he
intends
> that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those
> deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet.


Feeding s/d indefinitely isn't such a good idea. Chronic acid feeding can
affect bone metabolism and cause demineralization of bone as well as
have potentially detrimental effects on renal function. Chronic acid
feeding
can also cause metabolic acidosis and possibly hemolytic anemia and
predispose your cat to calcium oxalate crystals- which *cannot* be
dissolved. Given the choice, I'd rather deal with struvite than calcium
oxalate- any day!

After the initial crystal problem has been resolved, I think you should be
able to manage her on *canned* c/d or even a commercial, meat-based *canned*
diet. If your vet puts her on s/d permanently, I'd would seek a second
opinion. Remember, crystals are not as dangerous to females are they are to
males, so you have a wider margin of safety in which you can try less risky
and dangerous treatment options.

Good luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 25th 05, 02:01 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
news:3eohf.32050

I know that at least one veterinarian,
> Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup

If you're referring to me- since I'm the only regular "Phil" (although I am
irregular sometimes), I'm not a vet.

Phil

Phil P.
November 25th 05, 02:03 AM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Rhino,
> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
> that they are still struvite crystals?


That's not good enough, Steve. You've got to analyze the layers of the
crystal and the *core*. Epitaxy can produce a crystal with a struvite shell
over a CaOx core or vice versa. Once the diet dissolves the struvite, the
core will grow rapidly. The factors that produced the mineral at the core
can be very different from those that produced other layers or the shell.
Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little
coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis.

How was your Thanksgiving? I'm sitting at the computer because I'm too
stuffed to move! lol

Phil

Steve Crane
November 25th 05, 03:00 AM
Rhino wrote:
> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > wrote:
> >> Rhino wrote:

> I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the
> events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard
> operating procedure" to you?
>
> By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound as
> if you might.

Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of
norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
decision has to be on hold.

Rhonda
November 25th 05, 04:23 AM
Hi Rhino,

What I did with Abernathy was read up about urinary problems on
different website, and ask questions here -- as soon as he was diagnosed
with a problem.

Because I was learning new things and did not really know what to ask
the vet in the first appointment, I asked her in the follow-up.

Your cat will need a follow-up urine check even if he seems to be acting
better. What we did is collect a urine sample at home (the vet gave us a
kit of plastic crystals for litter and a syringe) and ran that into
their office. This saved him the stress of another trip.

It was pretty easy to say to the vet "I've been learning and reading
about urinary problems in cats, and wondered what kind of crystals he
has, wonder about different foods" etc. She is very easy to talk to
anyway, and will often say "good question" when we ask something. She
encourages us to learn more and ask questions about the problem. I hope
your vet is like that. You can always say that "I'm on a cat group and
someone mentioned some things about s/d..." or whatever it is, and see
what the vet thinks.

Good luck,

Rhonda

Rhino wrote:

> As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet of
> s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just didn't
> discuss them at length; I don't think he wanted to spend a lot of time on
> the phone discussing "what ifs" when he was relatively hopeful that the
> antibiotic and short term s/d diet would solve the problem. I think he
> intended to revisit this question when and if Samba had further problems
> after the antibiotics and s/d diet had run their course.
>
> Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 03:58 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Rhino wrote:
>> I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that
>> I
>> am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall
>> that
>> he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no
>> knowledge of veterinary science. I know that at least one veterinarian,
>> Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup but I'm not sure if anyone
>> who
>> has responded in this thread has any more knowledge of veterinary
>> medicine
>> than I do. I don't want put my ver in the position of feeling that he is
>> being second-guessed by people with far fewer qualifications than he has.
>
> Does the diploma on the wall say that he is a vet who is board
> certified or that he is just a vet? Does he specialize in felines? Why
> do you say that Phil is a vet? Did Phl ever say he was a vet? Where do
> you get that information? You need more precision in what you say when
> you deal with illness.
>
My vet's sign - the one on the street - says that he is board certified
specializing in small animals. I've only ever seen cats and dogs at his
office but he may handle birds, hamsters or whatever for all I know. I am in
Canada and he was trained at the University of Calgary; I don't know if the
Canadian definition of "board certified" is the same as the US definition;
for that matter, I don't know if you are American or something else; if you
are Australian for example, "board certified" may mean something different
than it does here or in the US.

As for Phil, I was sure I saw something a few years back that gave me the
distinct impression he was a veterinarian. I think someone else said he was
a veterinarian, not that he said it himself, but no one in that thread
contradicted it so I assumed that was the case. I see now that he has jumped
into this thread and is NOT a vet: this is the first I've heard about it. I
stand corrected.

With regards to greater precision, I originally wrote a much longer post
describing Samba's full medical history, the history of Bebop (the other cat
in the house) and the histories of Sam and Tiger, the two cats that belong
to my mother, which is where I board Samba occasionally when I have to be
away. I was also going to go into considerable detail about the environment
here and at my mother's place in case there was any potential cause for
illness in the environment. But I didn't finish that post and decided not to
try for one simple reason: very few people would have had the patience to
finish it, let alone reply. Believe me, I write a lot of long posts on a
variety of different newsgroups and very few people on any of them will
actually read such tracts. Much to my frustration, I might add.

Instead, I decided to stick to some basic information and let people ask me
supplementary questions if they needed more information. You may be one of
the rare few who would actually wade through a much longer post; if so, good
for you. I certainly didn't mean to slight you but being skimpy with
information. I just wanted to make sure I got some answers, not had my post
ignored because it was too large for people to wade through.

> As far as someone having the same knowledge as you do, we can't make a
> decision because you have not presented any information aside from the
> fact that your cat has problems, possibly crystals and is using s/d or
> c/d.
>
Feel free to ask further questions; I'm happy to answer them if you need
more information to make a recommendation. But I've just explained why I
have not given you every conceivable fact about Samba in my original post.

> You have access to the internet. You said your vet was thinking of
> using s/d long term. Why not look up on the internet if that is a good
> idea or bad or sometimes a good idea.

I *am* doing exactly that; this thread proves that.

> S. Crane who responded here that
> its low pH could precipitate stones knows something. He is not a vet
> but he works for the company that makes that product. He works for
> Science Diet. He knows something. Why not call Science Diet and ask for
> help. Ask them if it's a good idea and when to provide s/d on a
> permanent basis. Can you do that?
>
If I can track down a phone number or email address, I am willing to do
that. But Hills undoubtedly has lawyers who may very well encourage their
staff to be very guarded with their answers for fear of prompting lawsuits
from disgruntled pet owners. That might tend to compromise the advice I get
from Hills if I approach them officially. It is certainly in Hills
self-interest to make their products look as good as possible and to
downplay any limitations in it. That's why I like to get advice from several
sources, not just rely on one.

> We are going by what you said. If you don't feel we are qualified; it's
> mainly because you are not giving any real factual information. It's
> not our fault that you do not ask questions, very, very basic
> questions. Some of us might not have a vet diploma on the wall but we
> have more experience in science than almost any vet you will ever come
> across in your entire life.
>
I meant no disrespect to anyone who replied to my thread, including you. I
only come here very sporadically and didn't recognize anyone that responded.
That means I don't know you or Steve Crane or Rhonda or Diane and I have no
idea what your qualfications are in answering my questions. I certainly
don't mean to disparage any advice that doesn't come from a vet! I realize
that some people here are probably experienced cat breeders who may know as
much or more than a vet about urinary problems. But no one here spelled out
there qualifications to me and I did not want to assume that everyone who
replied was at least as knowledgeable as my vet simply because they bothered
to reply. I've been on plenty of newsgroups where people are all too ready
to weigh in with an authoritative-sounding opinion on something without
having the slightest clue what they were talking about. Sometimes, those
people were very convincing and fooled me until others with more expertise
set me straight. This is particularly easy in newsgroups where I don't know
much about the subject at hand, like this one.

> I think you are criticizing us because we are pointing out that you are
> not doing very basic things. You are not looking up on the internet
> what is and what is not about s/d or c/d.

That's not true. I went to the Hills site and read their product
descriptions for c/d and s/d. I'm not sure how much I said about it in this
thread but I believe I mentioned it, although probably not in great detail.

> Have you done a basic search
> yet? I doubt it because then you would know that s/d is usually, almost
> usually, a short term process. If your vet is going to use this long
> term, is he aware that there could be complications from its low pH or
> fat content. I had a problem with s/d.

Yes, you've said this at least three times now. Each time, I've replied that
my vet is aware of risks in using s/d on a long-term basis and had some
extra precautions in mind if it became necessary to do that. But you never
seen to hear that and keep assuming that my vet is unaware of long term
consequences of using s/d.

> But I don't have a diploma on
> the wall that says "vet" - should I refuse to answer your post then? In
> the future, I will try to avoid your posts since you do not appreciate
> our trying to help you in spite of yourself.
>
See my remarks elsewhere in this reply.

> I regret taking the time to answer yours posts. It is obviously a waste
> of time. You seem unable to process simple information like s/d is not
> a good idea for long term use especially since your vet is not giving
> you specifics. There's nothing more I can do if you cannot process
> logical statements, now is there? I'm surprised because usually
> computer people know simple logic.
>
See my remarks elsewhere in this reply.

> If you want a newsgroup that has more "qualifications" I suggest you go
> to the vet newsgroup. How's that? Go to a newsgroup which is peopled
> with vets who have diplomas on the wall. Sound reasonable? A vet
> newsgroup, that is, a veterinary newsgroup. For vets but they take lay
> questions. Or used to when I last used them.
>
See my remarks elsewhere in this reply.

> I don't mean to be testy but your post put me in a bad mood. I feed sad
> when I read posts like yours which have very limited information and
> makes everybody look bad.
>
See my remarks elsewhere in this reply.

> Happy Thanksgiving
>
Thank you, you too!

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 03:59 PM
"Diane" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Rhino" > wrote:
>
>> >> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he
>> >> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab
>> >> report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can
>> >> try....
>> >
>> > Why wouldn't he tell you? It's important to know.
>> >
>> > Your veterinarian is a physician for animals. Would your physician say,
>> > "You have a disease." "What disease?" "Oh, I'm not going to tell you."?
>> > :)
>>
>> I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that
>> I
>> am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall
>> that
>> he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no
>> knowledge of veterinary science.
>
> That's never made a difference to me. If I want to know something, I
> ask. A good veterinarian is not going to be offended. At the clinic I go
> to, the veterinarians often tell you what they're going to do or what
> they did, which gives me more confidence in them than if it was some
> secret. It's not some shrouded mystery and shouldn't be.

I hope you're right. I'll give it a try.

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 04:01 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> news:3eohf.32050
>
> I know that at least one veterinarian,
>> Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup
>
> If you're referring to me- since I'm the only regular "Phil" (although I
> am
> irregular sometimes), I'm not a vet.
>
Yes, I think I am referring to you.

I stand corrected! I'm sure I saw a thread a couple of years back where you
were described - by someone else - as a vet and no one contradicted it so I
assumed it was true. You certainly "talk the talk" so I can well imagine
that someone would mistake you for a vet :-)

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 04:06 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >> Rhino wrote:
>
>> I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the
>> events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard
>> operating procedure" to you?
>>
>> By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound
>> as
>> if you might.
>
> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
> various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
> information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
> teaching vets how to use the diets.

Thanks for the clarification! Like Phil, you "talk the talk" very well so I
thought you might be a vet. From the sounds of it, you are *very* well
versed on the nature of the Hill's foods so that makes you a very valuable
contributer to this discussion. Thanks for jumping in!

> What you describe is not out of
> norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
> the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
> at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
> the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
> way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
> until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
> decision has to be on hold.
>
The lab work came back on Tuesday and the vet phoned with a synopsis of the
results right away. I didn't get a copy of the lab report though. Should I
ask for a copy of the actual report? Or just for specific numbers from that
report?

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 04:12 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> Rhino,
>> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
>> that they are still struvite crystals?
>
>
> That's not good enough, Steve. You've got to analyze the layers of the
> crystal and the *core*. Epitaxy can produce a crystal with a struvite
> shell
> over a CaOx core or vice versa. Once the diet dissolves the struvite, the
> core will grow rapidly. The factors that produced the mineral at the core
> can be very different from those that produced other layers or the shell.
> Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little
> coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis.
>
Like I said elsewhere in this thread, you really *do* "talk the talk" :-)

Phil, are you suggesting another test that I should do to be sure about the
nature/cause of Samba's urinary problems? If so, what specifically should I
do?

I should mention that money is *very* tight for me right now. The vet
initially recommended that I get blood tests for $175 (Canadian) but agreed
that the urine sample might be adequate under the circumstances. But if I
have to get the blood tests or other tests to make sure Samba is being
treated appropriately, I'm prepared to consider them if there is any
substantial chance that the current course of treatment is likely to do her
any harm.

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 04:41 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>> My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house,
>> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see
> if
>> she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However,
>> he
>> did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on
>> s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because
>> she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he
> intends
>> that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those
>> deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet.
>
>
> Feeding s/d indefinitely isn't such a good idea. Chronic acid feeding can
> affect bone metabolism and cause demineralization of bone as well as
> have potentially detrimental effects on renal function. Chronic acid
> feeding
> can also cause metabolic acidosis and possibly hemolytic anemia and
> predispose your cat to calcium oxalate crystals- which *cannot* be
> dissolved. Given the choice, I'd rather deal with struvite than calcium
> oxalate- any day!
>
Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet
did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly
knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we
are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick.

I will ask the vet if I can get a copy of the lab report from the urine test
and then post it back here if I am successful. I would very much like your
opinion on whether the urine test and current treatment is appropriate
though. I find myself wondering if I should spring for the blood tests just
to be sure that the crystals aren't forming as a result of something that
isn't dietary, like diabetes or whatever other feline conditions can cause
Samba's symptoms.

> After the initial crystal problem has been resolved, I think you should be
> able to manage her on *canned* c/d or even a commercial, meat-based
> *canned*
> diet. If your vet puts her on s/d permanently, I'd would seek a second
> opinion. Remember, crystals are not as dangerous to females are they are
> to
> males, so you have a wider margin of safety in which you can try less
> risky
> and dangerous treatment options.
>
Thank you, Phil. All of that is very good to know.

But I'd like to ask some followup questions if I may.

1. Assuming that Samba responds to the current treatment and I obtain the
lab report for the urine test so that the experts here can advise me on what
food to give her when she is finished with the s/d, should I put the other
cat in the house, Bebop, on the same diet? He is a neutered male who is the
same age as Samba but is apparently unrelated to her; I adopted them in the
same visit to the animal shelter. I always feed him the same dry c/d as
Samba gets. Both cats are apparently at their ideal weights - 14 lbs for
Bebop and 10.5 lbs for Samba - and have been stable at that weight since
they were full grown. If UTIs are more dangerous for males, I wonder if
Bebop isn't at least as big a candidate for a change as Samba? Then again,
I'm not aware of him every urinating outside the litter box so perhaps he
has some kind of genetic edge that makes him unlikely to get UTIs?

2. Are there any "environmental" (i.e. non-dietary) causes of urinary
crystals other than houseplants or excessive magnesium in the drinking
water? From all the feedback I've been getting, it seems as if the smart
money is on the dry c/d diet as being the likely cause of Samba's problems
but it might be good if I could rule out any other plausible causes. I don't
have any houseplants and the cats are strictly indoor cats; the only plants
they encounter are at my mother's house when she takes them but that is only
for a few days at a time two or three times a year. I'm inclined to think I
shouldn't worry about that minimal exposure. (Correct me if I'm wrong!). I'm
trying to get magnesium concentrations in our city water as we speak but I
suspect the bureaucracy is going to take it's time on this matter. If there
are any other environmental causes that I should be investigating, I'd love
to know about them.

3. With regards to pill administration, the first time we put Samba on the
antibiotic, I simply put the pill in her dry food. I think she ate it every
time (or maybe all but one time) without any great hesitation and stayed to
finish the rest of her food so I'm pretty sure she didn't just spit out the
pill when she had left the room. (I certainly never found any spitted-out
pills afterwards). This time, the vet's assistant said I should be putting
the pill directly in Samba's mouth. Is that really necessary? I've been
giving her the pill orally this time but Samba is getting more stressed each
time I do it. She also skitters around very suspiciously while she is eating
if I come near, obviously in fear that I am about to grab her and force
another pill on her. She forgives me fairly quickly - a few minutes after
dinner, she'll curl up between my ankles while I watch TV - but I'd like to
avoid the stress of the pill-taking if I can.

Rhino

Rhino
November 25th 05, 11:21 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >> Rhino wrote:
>
>> I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the
>> events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard
>> operating procedure" to you?
>>
>> By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound
>> as
>> if you might.
>
> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
> various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
> information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
> teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of
> norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
> the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
> at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
> the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
> way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
> until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
> decision has to be on hold.
>
I dropped in on the vet this afternoon and he gave me a copy of the lab
report for Samba. Here goes:
-------------------------
URINALYSIS:
Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
Specific Gravity: 1.054
pH: 6.5
Urobilinogen: Normal
Blood: Trace amount
Urine Bilirubin: Negative
Glucose: Negative
Ketones: Negative
Protein: +

MICROSCOPY:
SEDIMENT
RBC: occasional
Squamous epithelial: occasional
WBC: occasional
CRYSTALS
Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
-------------------------

The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.

He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup urine
test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their jobs.

I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.

He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control people
in the public utility.

I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well as
anyone else who might still be watching this thread.

Rhino

Stacey Weinberger
November 26th 05, 12:05 AM
This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat
Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on wood).
Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is better
for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities. A cat
with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added water in
their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl. Dry food
provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that the urine
doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the bladder.

Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a little
water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again.
He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still add
water to the food to keep him diluted.

Stacey

"Rhino" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
>> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
>> various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
>> information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
>> teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of
>> norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
>> the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
>> at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
>> the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
>> way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
>> until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
>> decision has to be on hold.
>>
> I dropped in on the vet this afternoon and he gave me a copy of the lab
> report for Samba. Here goes:
> -------------------------
> URINALYSIS:
> Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
> Specific Gravity: 1.054
> pH: 6.5
> Urobilinogen: Normal
> Blood: Trace amount
> Urine Bilirubin: Negative
> Glucose: Negative
> Ketones: Negative
> Protein: +
>
> MICROSCOPY:
> SEDIMENT
> RBC: occasional
> Squamous epithelial: occasional
> WBC: occasional
> CRYSTALS
> Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
> -------------------------
>
> The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.
>
> He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup urine
> test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their jobs.
>
> I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
> said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
> problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
> the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
> was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
> advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.
>
> He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
> problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
> noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
> this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control people
> in the public utility.
>
> I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well as
> anyone else who might still be watching this thread.
>
> Rhino
>

Dave Janes
November 26th 05, 03:37 AM
Is it possible kitty isn't getting enough water to keep her urinary
tract clear?

If she does drink lots of water have you had the water checked for
mineral content? Maybe demineralized water might help?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:05:12 -0500, "Rhino"
> wrote:

>My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
>has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the
>space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
>the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I
>noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
>such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up,
>just to see if it had been peed on.
>
>The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on
>Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
>actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that
>time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test
>results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special
>food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple
>of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
>week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
>been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.
>
>The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
>crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
>few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
>eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her
>anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
>has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few
>days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other
>cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
>mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
>last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely
>that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
>period could cause Samba problems.
>
>It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of her
>meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could have
>eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the
>source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other
>sources of things besides food that might cause crystals.
>
>For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the
>morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface
>sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting a
>bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested
>finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is something
>that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility.
>
>The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my
>food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may
>be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any
>specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at
>least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And
>I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in the
>world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs.
>
>I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats on
>a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet simply
>be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of
>cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d,
>http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63388&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395204707&bmUID=1132753700242&bmLocale=en_CA,
>c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid
>urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That
>certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_ the
>absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description on
>their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that
>crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d
>developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit.
>
>I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if anyone
>can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for
>her than c/d, I'd love to hear it.
>
>Rhino
>

( \
\ \
/ / |\\
/ / .-`````-. / ^`-.
\ \ / \_/ {|} `o
\ \ / .---. \\ _ ,--'
\ \/ / \, \( `^^^
\ \/\ (\ )
\ ) \ ) \ \
) /__ \__ ) (\ \___
(___)))__))(__))(__)))

November 26th 05, 12:46 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

> Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
> stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
> designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
> stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
> calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
> foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
> the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.

> Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
> canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
> range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
> crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
> etc.

Now that's really helpful. Thanks. So it's the pH more than the fat
content which I had read but seemed a little too easy. So I see now why
the pH goes to 6.3 on average for the senior varieties, to move away
from struvite and prevent calcium stones for senior cats which are over
7? What's a cat do who is 7? Eat 1/2 non-senior and 1/2 senior?

Do you know of any canned food that is bad specifically? If you do, and
it's okay, please send me an emal, even anonymously. I won't say
anything. My lips are sealed.

I gather you're saying that too much Ca or Mg or P or whatever can
cause stones? And it's not just the imbalance but just too much?

Too high protein does not figure into this but does with renal failure.
Do males and females get renal failure at the same rates?

I was just looking at Science Diet. I had looked at Wysong the day
before. All of Diet Science canned wet food appears to be about the
same kcals, same P levels, less than 0.80% as a dry matter basis, and
so on. Not bad. Had not noticed that before. Good for you. And
relatively low protein compared to, oh, Friskies, those few Friskies
that have less than 0.80% P DMB, which is less than a handful,
literally. I only looked at Friskies because I had a free coupon but I
passed on getting them for free because there was just no info on the
cans that I could use to make an intelligent decision.

Finally got my snail mail data sheets from Purina asking about the new
relabled Fancy Feast. The dummies sent me their old information. Can
you believe that? They release a new product. It's on the shelves.
Marinated Morsels... It's not exactly the same as the old. And they
don't know the phosphorus content yet. They know the kilocalories but
not the phosphorus content. That wrinkles my underwear. And they send
me useless information I already had. I specifically asked for the
phosphorus content of what they are already selling. I gather then they
release products without knowing the phosphorus content if they cannot
tell me? BAD PURINA. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD

Oh, I read that 2 of SD's canned food products reduce shedding. That
was interesting. I liked one better than the other. Science Diet.
Hairball Control Adult Chicken Entree. REDUCE SHEDDING. Really true?
I noticed that as I feed her canned food products of good quality
[Science Diet, or occasionally Wysong, even the 3 Fancy Feasts that I
consider reasonable out of their 60 different types] - her fur seems
less dry than on almost 97% Science Diet Light which is dry kibble and
3% SD Oral Care.

Given the, do you recommend r/d or m/d to reduce weight? Or is this a
non sequitor?

The other SD Hairball one had meat by-products first and this one lists
chicken, turkey giblets before the meat by-products. I know, it may not
matter and it's better to have meat by-products rather than sky high
phosphorus or protein or wacky pH levels. But I still am not sure
exactly what is in meat by-products not that I'm all that worried about
mad cow disease and renegade prions. I know they try to separate out
the bad stuff and it's supposedly human grade but well, it keeps the
price down I gather.

Rhino
November 26th 05, 02:42 PM
I'm not sure what counts as "lots" of water. I give her water that started
out as tap water but has been sitting in a Brita pitcher that uses the
appropriate Brita filter. The water compartment on her bowl has a capacity
of about 2/3 of a cup and she drinks about 80 to 90% of that capacity in a
typical 24 hour period. She rarely if ever finishes that water and I don't
have any other open sources of water. (I keep the toilet seats down to
prevent her and Bebop from drinking from the toilets.) Is 2/3 of a cup
"lots" for a 10.5 lb female?

Someone else in this thread suggested that the water supply may have too
much magnesium. I'm still waiting for a callback from the city to find out
what the magnesium content in our water is. The Brita filter makes no claims
about reducing magnesium. However, when I raised this possibility with the
vet, he thought it was a very remote possibility since excess magnesium also
causes problems in humans and the water supply is presumably closely
monitored for this.

The vet is pretty determined to believe that a cat on a diet of only c/d
can't possibly get crystals but can't suggest anything else that could cause
the crystal formation except house plants. I don't have any house plants so
that can't be it, unless Samba is eating a lot of plants when she is at my
mother's house a few days a year.

The fact that I don't know the root causes for Samba's crystals is why I've
posted here: I'd like to find the cause, not just treat the symptoms.

Your suggestion is a good one; perhaps I need to get my water tested to see
if it has more than a safe amount of magnesium or other minerals in it. I'm
going to have to look into water testing and see what is involved and what
it costs. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?
Distilled water is relatively inexpensive but some of the "designer" water
goes for several dollars for even a small container and that would be a
problem for me right now....


Rhino

"Dave Janes" > wrote in message
...
> Is it possible kitty isn't getting enough water to keep her urinary
> tract clear?
>
> If she does drink lots of water have you had the water checked for
> mineral content? Maybe demineralized water might help?
>
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:05:12 -0500, "Rhino"
> > wrote:
>
>>My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
>>has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over
>>the
>>space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
>>the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel.
>>I
>>noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
>>such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it
>>up,
>>just to see if it had been peed on.
>>
>>The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet
>>on
>>Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
>>actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at
>>that
>>time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the
>>test
>>results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a
>>special
>>food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a
>>couple
>>of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
>>week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
>>been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.
>>
>>The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
>>crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
>>few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
>>eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give
>>her
>>anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
>>has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a
>>few
>>days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the
>>other
>>cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
>>mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
>>last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly
>>unlikely
>>that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
>>period could cause Samba problems.
>>
>>It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of
>>her
>>meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could
>>have
>>eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the
>>source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other
>>sources of things besides food that might cause crystals.
>>
>>For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the
>>morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface
>>sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting
>>a
>>bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested
>>finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is
>>something
>>that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility.
>>
>>The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my
>>food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may
>>be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any
>>specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at
>>least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And
>>I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in
>>the
>>world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs.
>>
>>I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats
>>on
>>a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet
>>simply
>>be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of
>>cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d,
>>http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63388&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395204707&bmUID=1132753700242&bmLocale=en_CA,
>>c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid
>>urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That
>>certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_
>>the
>>absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description
>>on
>>their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that
>>crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d
>>developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit.
>>
>>I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if
>>anyone
>>can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for
>>her than c/d, I'd love to hear it.
>>
>>Rhino
>>
>
> ( \
> \ \
> / / |\\
> / / .-`````-. / ^`-.
> \ \ / \_/ {|} `o
> \ \ / .---. \\ _ ,--'
> \ \/ / \, \( `^^^
> \ \/\ (\ )
> \ ) \ ) \ \
> ) /__ \__ ) (\ \___
> (___)))__))(__))(__)))

November 26th 05, 10:17 PM
Stacey Weinberger wrote:
> This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat
> Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on wood).
> Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is better
> for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities. A cat
> with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added water in
> their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl. Dry food
> provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that the urine
> doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the bladder.
>
> Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a little
> water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again.
> He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still add
> water to the food to keep him diluted.
>
> Stacey

That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just
plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus, 0.20%, and either
0.01% in calcium or that was a mistake. Anyway, you get all the info at
http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/drymatteranalysis.pdf
Now that's a real good company. All the info, straight out in one
simple PDF file that you can download. That Wysong is a big can for
about $2 and can last. Just pure food, not rated for anything but being
pure chicken. NEAT!

I still have trouble believing .01% calcium. Anybody know if that's
possible? That would be a 1 to 20 imbalance of calcium to phosphorus.
But with supplementation, since both numbers are low, then it's
probably trivial even if accurate.

In any case, I also feed occasional Science Diet Oral Care, a little
kibble, figure that acts like a tooth brush. Or I can clean my cat's
teeth with my thumb. I also have a cat's toothbrush. Even a washcloth.
Do you do any of that or was anything like that ever suggested? I am
not saying my cat stays quiet the whole time, but I get at least the
big fangs and probably could get all the teeth in a day or so, a few at
a time. She takes it for about 5 or so seconds and then starts
squirming and what not. She's suh a good kitty. Lets me probe her
tummy. Now sure what I'm looking for but I feel very "professional":)

What is "Instincts TC"? A good supplement, apparently? That would help
the phosphorus/calcium balance? Good recommendation or just another
good product?

Stacey Weinberger
November 26th 05, 10:43 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Stacey Weinberger wrote:
>> This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat
>> Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on
>> wood).
>> Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is
>> better
>> for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities. A cat
>> with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added water in
>> their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl. Dry
>> food
>> provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that the
>> urine
>> doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the bladder.
>>
>> Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a
>> little
>> water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again.
>> He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still
>> add
>> water to the food to keep him diluted.
>>
>> Stacey
>
> That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just
> plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus, 0.20%, and either
> 0.01% in calcium or that was a mistake. Anyway, you get all the info at
> http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/drymatteranalysis.pdf
> Now that's a real good company. All the info, straight out in one
> simple PDF file that you can download. That Wysong is a big can for
> about $2 and can last. Just pure food, not rated for anything but being
> pure chicken. NEAT!
>
> I still have trouble believing .01% calcium. Anybody know if that's
> possible? That would be a 1 to 20 imbalance of calcium to phosphorus.
> But with supplementation, since both numbers are low, then it's
> probably trivial even if accurate.
>
> In any case, I also feed occasional Science Diet Oral Care, a little
> kibble, figure that acts like a tooth brush. Or I can clean my cat's
> teeth with my thumb. I also have a cat's toothbrush. Even a washcloth.
> Do you do any of that or was anything like that ever suggested? I am
> not saying my cat stays quiet the whole time, but I get at least the
> big fangs and probably could get all the teeth in a day or so, a few at
> a time. She takes it for about 5 or so seconds and then starts
> squirming and what not. She's suh a good kitty. Lets me probe her
> tummy. Now sure what I'm looking for but I feel very "professional":)
>
> What is "Instincts TC"? A good supplement, apparently? That would help
> the phosphorus/calcium balance? Good recommendation or just another
> good product?

I haven't brushed his teeth though I have the little finger brush and cat
tooth paste. Instincts TC and Feline Instincts are two brands (two
different companies) of supplements that you add to the homemade raw diet.
When I was on the IBD list for my other cat Julian I found out about them
and that you can add them to the Wysong Au Jus. I went with the Instincts
TC because it had less stuff in it than the other. Julian has chronic IBD
and the Wysong and Instincts has kept him on an even keel. No runny stinky
poops. No medicine or other diet has helped him as much as those have
(short of going raw, but i don't have the kind of lifestyle that would allow
me to do that). And the bonus that Sebastian can eat it too without any
FLUTD problems. Both supplements are available online so you can check out
their content. Wysong makes a supplement too called Call of the Wild for
raw diets but it is for both dog and cat and was too harsh for julian.

Stacey

Stacey
>

November 26th 05, 11:19 PM
Rhino wrote:
> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet
> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly
> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we
> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick.

I must have missed those posts. They appear late. Look, originally you
asked if your cat could go without food at the vet's. How dangerous is
that? Now that's a really leading question concerning the competency of
your vet. Your vet should know your cat is not eating and whether
hospitalization is good or not. Next you accuse us of second-guessing
your vet who has a diploma on a wall. It's good to ask you repeatedly
because you are asking us info that you should be asking your vet and
then getting miffed when we point out possible problems. Are you buying
the food from the vet? Probably.

In any event, the only post I read of yours was that your vet said to
use s/d permanently. I wanted to warn you of the possible risks and
this runs counter to generally accepted practice. If I had to do this
repeatedly, I don't remember but I had to get through your fog and rant
about the diplomas on the wall. I go by results not pieces of paper.
But in a post I deleted, I pointed out that there are newsgroups which
are mostly for vets. Did you ask there? They are not hard to find. They
have "vet" somewhere in the title. But why you should ask advice about
hospitalization and then admonish us that your vet worked hard to get
his diploma is unpleasant and deceptive. You should say, I have
concerns, but I don't want any direct answers because I can say I have
concerns, but you can't say that because my vet has a diploma on the
wall. That's as bad as my cousin who dumped her husband and after
telling he she dumped her husband, I asked her why. She then turns on
me and says she does not want to talk about it. Poor guy. He's better
off without such a nasty woman.

Good vets are rare. For too many, it becomes just a job and money is a
consideration. I have had a vet tell me what she did to make more
money. Not nice.

November 27th 05, 01:02 AM
Rhino wrote:
> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet
> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly
> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we
> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick.
> Rhino

I don't see a single post in which you replied to me at any time.
Where are they? I don't see one and yet you post you replied repeatedly
to me.

You wrote about s/d. I pointed out that that is a risk. Others seconded
that.

You also posted a criticism that your vet has a diploma he worked hard
for. So we cannot second guess your vet because we don't have diplomas?
We have experience with vets who abused s/d. There are safer options
but they don't require buying s/d from a vet. And I thought it was you
who asked about how long a cat can go without food which carries
implications about unncessary and potentially dangeours
hospitalization. The point of this newsgroup is to explore options and
get information that might be contrary to what a vet with a diploma on
his all might be doing.

In any case, I don't see any replies to me so I don't think you are
being truthful.

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 07:03 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >> Rhino,
> >> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
> >> that they are still struvite crystals?
> >
> >
> > That's not good enough, Steve. You've got to analyze the layers of the
> > crystal and the *core*. Epitaxy can produce a crystal with a struvite
> > shell
> > over a CaOx core or vice versa. Once the diet dissolves the struvite,
the
> > core will grow rapidly. The factors that produced the mineral at the
core
> > can be very different from those that produced other layers or the
shell.
> > Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little
> > coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis.
> >
> Like I said elsewhere in this thread, you really *do* "talk the talk" :-)


...and I walk the walk, too. ;)


>
> Phil, are you suggesting another test that I should do to be sure about
the
> nature/cause of Samba's urinary problems? If so, what specifically should
I
> do?

I'd want a definitive analysis of the crystals if I were you. You want
what's called 'quantitative mineral analysis'. Sometimes, the core or the
various layers of the crystal/urolith- or plug can give you clues of what
was involved in its formation. Some crystals are associated with specific
disease processes or infection (e.g., infection-induced struvite, bilirubin,
and tyrosine crystals). The shapes and internal structure of crystals can
vary too much to make a definitive diagnosis based on their physical
appearance alone.


>
> I should mention that money is *very* tight for me right now. The vet
> initially recommended that I get blood tests for $175 (Canadian) but
agreed
> that the urine sample might be adequate under the circumstances. But if I
> have to get the blood tests or other tests to make sure Samba is being
> treated appropriately, I'm prepared to consider them if there is any
> substantial chance that the current course of treatment is likely to do
her
> any harm.

As I said, mineral analysis should provide you with a lot of information-
although a complete blood work-up wouldn't hurt. At the very least, a
work-up will give you a baseline for future reference,

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 07:05 AM
> wrote in message >

> That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just
> plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus,

Chicken au jus shouldn't be fed alone because it isn't a balanced diet.

November 27th 05, 08:40 AM
Rhino wrote:
> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet
> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly
> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we
> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick.

Repeatedly, really? The "risks" are downplayed in the original post and
not discussed at all which are stones. That is not an insignificant
risk. As I said before, think $1000 for surgery. Just reminding you.
Yes, it's a repeat. Your original post made it seem like just some
supplements were needed but it's far more risky than that.

In any case, here is the post that you originally posted:

"My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the
house,
Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to
see if
she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However,
he
did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her
on
s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that
because
she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he
intends
that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address
those
deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet."

It's not a question of "what ifs" it's a question of knowing what you
are doing. If I repeated myself, it seemed because either you or the
vet or both of you were oblivious to the possibility that you were
trading a relatively simple problem for a much more severe and
expensive problem. And I did not get your posts until this weekend. So
forgive if I repeat myself but it's the care of your cat I am concerned
about. If you wish to put spin on things to make yourself look better,
be my guest.

But it's not a question of "nutrients" as your vet told you or you
misunderstood. It's a question of getting calcium stones instead of the
struvite crystals. You do understand this finally? Again, it's not a
question of supplements, it's trading one problem for a more serious
problem because you are creating an environment of a pH around 6.0. Do
you understand what an acidic pH of 6.0 can do in the long run? Well,
it's that time of year and maybe your vet needs to buy presents and
make a boat payment.

Are you really quoting your vet correctly? Did he really say s/d
permanently and that it was just a question of "nutrients?" I find this
difficult to believe. Either he must have made a mistake and meant to
say c/d, not s/d. Or you switched them around and did not grasp
correctly because you do not want to bother the man with the diploma on
the wall for which he worked so hard and we bad people here are second
guessing him. You did post that about second guessing the vet? You ask
advice, get it, and then shoot the messenger. Are you always so nice?
If you don't want truthful advice, don't ask for it. I've seen enough
bad vets that I go by results only, not diplomas, results. You could
say it's my evidence based medicine or EBM. Vets should post how many
pets they cured of struvite crystals on their walls. Then I would be
mightily impressed.

In any case, this is discussed all over the internet. As our resident
experts, Phil and Steve have also tried to tell you, it's not a good
idea.

Since you seem so touchy about repeating things and diplomas on the
wall, so be it. But what you are posting does not add up. But Phil made
some good suggestions. Get some good lab work done. And be prepared
that struvite crystals might come back a time or two before they are
cleared up by your figuring out what to do for your cat.

You can also contact HillsPet.com and call them. They probably have a
free number for Canada. I also checked their web site and s/d is not to
be used permanently. As I recall, they suggested six month max. And my
local vets only about a month. And I'm not overly fond, to put it
mildly, of feeding both cats the prescription medicine foods but that's
enough for today.

Dave Janes
November 27th 05, 08:59 AM
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:42:30 -0500, "Rhino"
> wrote:

>I'm not sure what counts as "lots" of water. I give her water that started
>out as tap water but has been sitting in a Brita pitcher that uses the
>appropriate Brita filter. The water compartment on her bowl has a capacity
>of about 2/3 of a cup and she drinks about 80 to 90% of that capacity in a
>typical 24 hour period. She rarely if ever finishes that water and I don't
>have any other open sources of water. (I keep the toilet seats down to
>prevent her and Bebop from drinking from the toilets.) Is 2/3 of a cup
>"lots" for a 10.5 lb female?

If she's drinking as much as you say on a daily basis, then I would
assume she's certainly getting enough.
>
>Someone else in this thread suggested that the water supply may have too
>much magnesium. I'm still waiting for a callback from the city to find out
>what the magnesium content in our water is. The Brita filter makes no claims
>about reducing magnesium. However, when I raised this possibility with the
>vet, he thought it was a very remote possibility since excess magnesium also
>causes problems in humans and the water supply is presumably closely
>monitored for this.

I don't know from tap water. Here where I live, nobody drinks from
the tap and only someone thoughtless or cruel would give it to their
pets.
>
>The vet is pretty determined to believe that a cat on a diet of only c/d
>can't possibly get crystals but can't suggest anything else that could cause
>the crystal formation except house plants. I don't have any house plants so
>that can't be it, unless Samba is eating a lot of plants when she is at my
>mother's house a few days a year.

My understanding is that this problem with kitties is as common with
them as a cold or flu is with humans.

I've accepted that and keep an eye out for sudden changes in eating,
drinking, playing and litter box habits. If they change and stay
changed for more than a couple of days, he's getting a trip to the
vet. If I'm over-reacting, I don't object to the few bucks it costs to
make sure that's all it is. Since he can't talk to me I've accepted
it as my responsibilty to learn his body language.

Also, when I shop for litter I buy stuff that is as light coloured as
I can find. With my last kitty I found out that sometimes they'll put
up with a lot before they start showing signs of anything. The light
coloured stuff can give you a heads up if you spot blood in it before
they show other signs that something is wrong.
>
>The fact that I don't know the root causes for Samba's crystals is why I've
>posted here: I'd like to find the cause, not just treat the symptoms.

I don't know that it's a preventable thing. What I'd like to know and
would appreciate an answer to, if anyone posting here does know, is
how common this problem is with ferels? It could be that it's the
life style they acquire from just living with us.

I'm sixty. When I was a kid we had cats that never came down with
these problems (that I can remember anyway). Back then most pets were
fed from the table.
>
>Your suggestion is a good one; perhaps I need to get my water tested to see
>if it has more than a safe amount of magnesium or other minerals in it.

I don't know that urban water processing deals with minerals at all.
I know that is filtered for sediment, chlorinated for filth and in
some communities floridated but I'm not sure that these processes have
anything to do with minerals.

> I'm
>going to have to look into water testing and see what is involved and what
>it costs. Is demineralized water the same thing as distilled water?
>Distilled water is relatively inexpensive but some of the "designer" water
>goes for several dollars for even a small container and that would be a
>problem for me right now....
>
Yes. Demineralized water is the same thing as distilled water. For
the little amount kitties drink compared to what a human would drink
you can distill it yourself. It involves boiling the water, collecting
the steam on any slanted cooler surface and letting what runs off into
its own container. I do it for kitty alone, usually on Sundays, using
bottled water. The library will provide the necessary info on the
process. Elementary school science actually. :) You'll have to buy a
couple of kettles a year, but they don't have to be expensive or
elaborate. I use a glass pie plate for the collector, tilted enough
so that when the steam turns back into water it runs down the glass
and into another container. I wouldn't recommend collecting rain water
these days.

I'm not assuring you that this will result in a prevention of the
problem. But my last kitty had two bouts of the problem before he was
four years old. From four years to sixteen years it never reoccured.
But then we started feeding him cooked but unseasoned beef or poultry
and the occasional piece of fish.

It's my personal belief, and I could be wrong, that we could learn a
lot from studying the lives of wild animals. They don't eat everyday,
let alone two or three times a day. Carnivores, which is what kitties
are, eat only one thing. It could be that feeding them out of cans in
the first place is what causes them to have such problems with their
health.

Humans are both carnivorous and herbivorous. I've lived the last half
of my life on that premise and have only had to see a Dr. because of
what they did to my back 20 years ago. I broil my meat, beef or
poultry, and steam or microwave my veggies. My diet is Spartan to my
friends and family but the last two Drs said that barring an accident
I'll probably see 100 plus. Maybe this kitty will too. :)

Regards

David
>
>Rhino
>
>"Dave Janes" > wrote in message
...
>> Is it possible kitty isn't getting enough water to keep her urinary
>> tract clear?
>>
>> If she does drink lots of water have you had the water checked for
>> mineral content? Maybe demineralized water might help?
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:05:12 -0500, "Rhino"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
>>>has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over
>>>the
>>>space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
>>>the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel.
>>>I
>>>noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
>>>such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it
>>>up,
>>>just to see if it had been peed on.
>>>
>>>The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet
>>>on
>>>Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
>>>actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at
>>>that
>>>time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the
>>>test
>>>results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a
>>>special
>>>food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a
>>>couple
>>>of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
>>>week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
>>>been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.
>>>
>>>The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
>>>crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
>>>few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
>>>eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give
>>>her
>>>anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
>>>has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a
>>>few
>>>days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the
>>>other
>>>cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
>>>mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
>>>last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly
>>>unlikely
>>>that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
>>>period could cause Samba problems.
>>>
>>>It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of
>>>her
>>>meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could
>>>have
>>>eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the
>>>source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other
>>>sources of things besides food that might cause crystals.
>>>
>>>For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the
>>>morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface
>>>sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting
>>>a
>>>bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested
>>>finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is
>>>something
>>>that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility.
>>>
>>>The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my
>>>food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may
>>>be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any
>>>specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at
>>>least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And
>>>I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in
>>>the
>>>world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs.
>>>
>>>I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats
>>>on
>>>a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet
>>>simply
>>>be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of
>>>cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d,
>>>http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455244417 63388&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395204707&bmUID=1132753700242&bmLocale=en_CA,
>>>c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid
>>>urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That
>>>certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_
>>>the
>>>absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description
>>>on
>>>their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that
>>>crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d
>>>developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit.
>>>
>>>I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if
>>>anyone
>>>can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for
>>>her than c/d, I'd love to hear it.
>>>
>>>Rhino
>>>
>>
>> ( \
>> \ \
>> / / |\\
>> / / .-`````-. / ^`-.
>> \ \ / \_/ {|} `o
>> \ \ / .---. \\ _ ,--'
>> \ \/ / \, \( `^^^
>> \ \/\ (\ )
>> \ ) \ ) \ \
>> ) /__ \__ ) (\ \___
>> (___)))__))(__))(__)))
>

November 27th 05, 09:06 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> > wrote in message >
>
> > That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just
> > plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus,
>
> Chicken au jus shouldn't be fed alone because it isn't a balanced diet.

Thanks for taking the time to point that out. I already knew it but
it's important you stress that this is pure chicken and nothing else,
so missing taurine and other essential supplements. I am amazed that
the phosphorus is 0.20% and the calcium is 0.01%. But after the
discussions here, I realize these numbers are so low that it does not
matter the ratios are out of whack. Wait, the numbers are not that low
so for sure the calcium needs to be seriously augmented. I still think
the 0.01% is a misprint but that's on their PDF on the web site. And
the Turkey Au Jus is 0.05% so maybe it's correct. I guess I could look
up the USDA SR-18 [United States Department of Agriculture and their
Standard Reference latest on foods and nutrients] and see what they
give for chicken. Wait... Okay, looking over meat with or without bone
or skin and so on, it seems the ratio is around 10:1 to 14:1 so how
they get a 20:1 of P:Ca I don't know. I guess I could call Wysong. I
think I tried before with an email or phone call. Since I use this
sparingly but if not, it's worth a call. I tried once to get raw
chicken necks. That was worth a laugh in a typical just package us
supermarket. Just as well. Probably salmonella time then. Do cats
handle salmonella well or is it just the ferals possibly? My cat ate
one unfortunate small creature and got the runs. Finally a touch of
Clindamycin stopped it dead in the tracks but I think she's gotten
spoiled on non-wild foods.

http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/drymatteranalysis.pdf

November 27th 05, 09:31 AM
Rhino wrote:
> The water supply is something I hadn't considered, which is the main reason
> I posted in the first place :-) I can contact the city and see if they have
> numbers for the magnesium concentration in the water. I just checked the box
> and the Brita filter (model 0B07) makes no claims about reducing magnesium.

Magnesium is a dissolved solid and it's impossible to take these out
short of distillation or reverse osmosis or water softeners. Ordinary
filters cannot affect dissolved solids. You might want to test
specifically for magnesium. The local water authority may just test
total dissolved solids in general. Around here 500 ppm is the max and
my water supply is close to that. In fact, I have so much total
dissolved solids that I would burn up a reverse osmosis membrane fairly
quicly and they are expensive to replace. So most people have water
softeners around here but then it's possible to have too much salt if
one is not careful. The water is "hard" in other words. If you easily
get deposits in a sink or wherever, then your water is hard in this
regard. Usually that means high calcium and magnesium and bring on the
water softeners. If I were worried about the magnesium, I would get
distilled water or water that has certifiably low magnesium. I might do
that come to think of it. I do have two big water filters that take
out a lot of other stuff. I guess I could take a sample to Sears and
see if my hardness rating has gone down :) The official report of the
water supply had 20 grains or around 355 ppm. My water was down to 12
grains so it's best to measure at your particular house unless you know
where they measured the water for the public testing.

Enough. One web site said that usually 33% of the hardness is due to
magnesium so that's not good in my case for sure. That's it. I'm done.
Distilled water for my car and for my cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 10:31 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
...

Is 2/3 of a cup
> "lots" for a 10.5 lb female?

A cat's daily water needs in ml are about equal to their energy needs in
kcals. IOW, a 10.5# (4.75 kg) a daily energy requirement of about 45
kcals/kg. So, 45 x 4.75 = 213 kcals or 213 ml of water or about 7 oz. A
good rule of thumb is about 1 oz per pound per day. That includes moisture
from the diet

Phil.

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 10:32 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > > wrote in message >
> >
> > > That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just
> > > plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus,
> >
> > Chicken au jus shouldn't be fed alone because it isn't a balanced diet.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to point that out. I already knew it but


I wasn't sure if you knew since you didn't mention it. I didn't want to
take any chances.

I don't think the phosphorus content is correct. It seems like an as fed
value rather than dry matter.


Do cats
> handle salmonella well or is it just the ferals possibly?

Yes. The extreme acidity of the cat's stomach makes them highly resistant to
salmonella- unless they're stressed.

November 27th 05, 11:59 AM
Dave Janes wrote:
> I don't know that urban water processing deals with minerals at all.
> I know that is filtered for sediment, chlorinated for filth and in
> some communities floridated but I'm not sure that these processes have
> anything to do with minerals.

There is a standard or Maximum Containment Level of 500 ppm which is
also 500 mg/l or in grains, you divide by 17.1 to get the "hardness" in
grains. There are 7000 grains to one pound, in case anybody is
interested. This is the suggested standard that municipalities go by. I
have not looked up how strict the EPA [EPA has been "watered down" with
the republican administration] is about this but if you go above 500,
the water will soon not be palatable at all. In the water report, this
is the TDS or Total Dissolved Solids.

You can buy meters for around $25, little things, that measure this
digitally or your local Sears store will do it for free. Just ask. But
Sears does it like a swimming pool thing, a bit crude but in the
ballpark. I guess you could make your own TDS meter since it's really
measuring conductivity. Use a regular meter and set it to ohms? Hmmmm.

Because of hardness, there is a big industry with water softeners, like
Culligan, because not only is hard water not pleasant to drink, it also
screws up appliances with scales and makes soaping difficult. But
dousing the water with salt to get out the calcium and magnesium can
bring other problems if one is not careful. Some iron comes out but
lots of iron would require a big separate iron filter.

The reverse osmosis cannot handle very hard water but it would also get
the flouride too. One uses up the expensive RO membranes with hard
water. Reverse osmosis takes out most of the minerals so the TDS is
greatly reduced.

The distiller probably takes out more TDS than RO but wastes
electricity or energy. The RO wastes a lot of water. Up to what, 4 to
10 gallons to get 1 gallon done.

The best setup I saw was all three in a row. Carbon filters to get out
the volatile organics which are carcinogenic to humans. A RO unit to
get the minerals. And a distiller which gets whatever is left. A bad
distiller could theoretically concentrate the dangerous volatile
organics but that's another problem. But this was a physics lab doing
experimental work with an accelerator. When you smash that atom, you
want to be sure that what comes out was in the atom and not from the
contaminated water supply of a big city.

> Yes. Demineralized water is the same thing as distilled water. For
> the little amount kitties drink compared to what a human would drink
> you can distill it yourself. It involves boiling the water, collecting
> the steam on any slanted cooler surface and letting what runs off into
> its own container. I do it for kitty alone, usually on Sundays, using
> bottled water. The library will provide the necessary info on the
> process. Elementary school science actually. :) You'll have to buy a
> couple of kettles a year, but they don't have to be expensive or
> elaborate. I use a glass pie plate for the collector, tilted enough
> so that when the steam turns back into water it runs down the glass
> and into another container. I wouldn't recommend collecting rain water
> these days.

Okay, I like that a lot. I once made the whole thing, with glass tubing
and condensors and copper tubing and what not, glass was bent with the
gas burners, looked like a moonshine rig, took up too much of the
kitchen. Your method is neat but won't take out the volatile organics.
Wait, it's an open air system, who knows. They kind of escape on their
own, like chloroform will hit the air around 106 F, that is, come out
of solution [water] as a gas. So I'll filter the water first to get out
the VOC and MTBE and other baddies, then distill it and the cat better
like it. I need magnesium so I'll drink the water high in TDS. Or buy a
gallon - should last the cat a while.

> I'm not assuring you that this will result in a prevention of the
> problem. But my last kitty had two bouts of the problem before he was
> four years old. From four years to sixteen years it never reoccured.
> But then we started feeding him cooked but unseasoned beef or poultry
> and the occasional piece of fish.

Interesting. I tried this. She refused chicken breast but ate the
salmon. Can't remember if it was expensive wild or inexpensive farm
salmon. The Wysong is theoretically just pure chicken but best to make
it yourself. What happened at 16 years of age? I tried to find raw
chicken necks but then I would have to find a real butcher shop. Most
of them are gone except the phony things in the supermarkets. I rarely
buy meat and only then for the cat. I don't think she likes my cooking.

> Humans are both carnivorous and herbivorous. I've lived the last half
> of my life on that premise and have only had to see a Dr. because of
> what they did to my back 20 years ago. I broil my meat, beef or
> poultry, and steam or microwave my veggies. My diet is Spartan to my
> friends and family but the last two Drs said that barring an accident
> I'll probably see 100 plus. Maybe this kitty will too. :)

You're lucky. Your diet does not sound Spartan to me. Compared to my
diet, yours sounds quite sophisticated and elaborate ;)

Rhino
November 27th 05, 02:34 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Rhino wrote:
>> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the
>> vet
>> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He
>> clearly
>> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
>> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
>> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
>> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage:
>> we
>> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the
>> trick.
>
> I must have missed those posts.

I really don't know. They all appear within this thread if that helps.
Perhaps your newsreader is wonky?

> They appear late.

Late? I'm not sure what that means in this context.

> Look, originally you asked if your cat could go without food at the vet's.
> How dangerous is
> that?

What??? I said no such thing. My cats have never missed a meal and never
will if I have to saw off my own leg to feed them.

> Now that's a really leading question concerning the competency of
> your vet. Your vet should know your cat is not eating and whether
> hospitalization is good or not.

What are you referring to? I made a general observation to the effect that
every profession seems to graduate a few quacks. I certainly said nothing
against my vet.

> Next you accuse us of second-guessing
> your vet who has a diploma on a wall.

I explained that in one of my replies to you and I'm not going to say it all
again now. Review my other reply for a full explanation. I did not mean any
offense to anyone here, including you, I simply meant to say that I don't
know any of you (except Phil but he hadn't jumped in yet at that point) or
what your qualifications/experience was. I *still* don't know what YOUR
qualifications are, by the way.


> It's good to ask you repeatedly
> because you are asking us info that you should be asking your vet and
> then getting miffed when we point out possible problems.

Either I'm miscommunicating what I want to say or you are misunderstanding
me but I am not miffed with anyone. I simply get confused when I talk to a
vet and at least three people with significant experience with this issue
and get somewhat different advice from one another. I am trying to resolve
the (apparent) contradictions.

>Are you buying
> the food from the vet? Probably.
>
Yes, I buy my c/d from the vet. I believe it is only possible to buy it from
vets, I've never seen c/d in any pet store.


> In any event, the only post I read of yours was that your vet said to
> use s/d permanently. I wanted to warn you of the possible risks and
> this runs counter to generally accepted practice. If I had to do this
> repeatedly, I don't remember but I had to get through your fog and rant
> about the diplomas on the wall. I go by results not pieces of paper.
> But in a post I deleted, I pointed out that there are newsgroups which
> are mostly for vets. Did you ask there? They are not hard to find. They
> have "vet" somewhere in the title.

I have not done that yet.

> But why you should ask advice about
> hospitalization and then admonish us that your vet worked hard to get
> his diploma is unpleasant and deceptive.

I never once asked about hospitalization!! You must be confusing me with
some other post.

I have tried very hard not to be unpleasant or deceptive. I am posting to
this newsgroup as a "sanity check": you might say that I am trying to get a
second opinion.

> You should say, I have
> concerns, but I don't want any direct answers because I can say I have
> concerns, but you can't say that because my vet has a diploma on the
> wall.

I *am* interested in other views. But I am having trouble reconciling those
views in some respects.
How do YOU resolve a contradiction? I do it by asking questions and trying
to determine the expertise of the people giving me the advice. Sometimes, it
turns out that I probably shouldn't be listening to one person or another
because their expertise is not really in the area of my problem, then I can
give their opinion less weight.


> That's as bad as my cousin who dumped her husband and after
> telling he she dumped her husband, I asked her why. She then turns on
> me and says she does not want to talk about it. Poor guy. He's better
> off without such a nasty woman.
>
> Good vets are rare. For too many, it becomes just a job and money is a
> consideration. I have had a vet tell me what she did to make more
> money. Not nice.
>
Rhino

Rhino
November 27th 05, 02:51 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Rhino wrote:
>> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the
>> vet
>> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He
>> clearly
>> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
>> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
>> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
>> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage:
>> we
>> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the
>> trick.
>> Rhino
>
> I don't see a single post in which you replied to me at any time.

> Where are they? I don't see one and yet you post you replied repeatedly
> to me.
>
> You wrote about s/d. I pointed out that that is a risk. Others seconded
> that.
>
This thread has been going for several days now. A lot of people have
participated in it, many of them repeatedly, and I have added many notes of
my own. I just don't remember exactly what I said to who and when. It's very
possible that I did not mention it DIRECTLY to one of your remarks. Several
people expressed concern about a permanent s/d diet and I may have explained
the vet's reservations about that strategy in a reply to one of the others.
You may not read replies to anything but your own direct contributions; I
just assumed you were reading the whole thread. That may explain how you
missed it.

> You also posted a criticism that your vet has a diploma he worked hard
> for. So we cannot second guess your vet because we don't have diplomas?

I did NOT say that. But if two people give me opinions and one has diplomas
and years of clinical experience and the other is a total stranger, I have
to give more weight to the person whose qualifications are known to me and
less to the one who has not described their qualifications/experience. That
means you. You have yet to tell me one thing about your experience yet you
are miffed that I don't immediately kowtow to your every word. I am not
dismissing your advice, I simply don't know anything about you. I don't care
if you are board certified or have a DVM behind your name: real experience
counts as much or more to me. But you haven't said ANYTHING about your
experience.

> We have experience with vets who abused s/d. There are safer options
> but they don't require buying s/d from a vet. And I thought it was you
> who asked about how long a cat can go without food which carries
> implications about unncessary and potentially dangeours
> hospitalization.

I SAID NO SUCH THING! I have never failed to feed my cats a good quality
food twice a day and never will. You are either confusing me with another
post or you're delusional.

> The point of this newsgroup is to explore options and
> get information that might be contrary to what a vet with a diploma on
> his all might be doing.
>
That is exactly why I'm here.

> In any case, I don't see any replies to me so I don't think you are
> being truthful.
>
See above for a possible explanation of this.

Rhino

Rhino
November 27th 05, 03:10 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Rhino wrote:
>> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the
>> vet
>> did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He
>> clearly
>> knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and
>> hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d
>> permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because
>> neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage:
>> we
>> are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the
>> trick.
>
> Repeatedly, really? The "risks" are downplayed in the original post and
> not discussed at all which are stones. That is not an insignificant
> risk. As I said before, think $1000 for surgery. Just reminding you.
> Yes, it's a repeat. Your original post made it seem like just some
> supplements were needed but it's far more risky than that.
>
> In any case, here is the post that you originally posted:
>
> "My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the
> house,
> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to
> see if
> she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However,
> he
> did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her
> on
> s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that
> because
> she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he
> intends
> that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address
> those
> deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet."
>
> It's not a question of "what ifs" it's a question of knowing what you
> are doing. If I repeated myself, it seemed because either you or the
> vet or both of you were oblivious to the possibility that you were
> trading a relatively simple problem for a much more severe and
> expensive problem. And I did not get your posts until this weekend. So
> forgive if I repeat myself but it's the care of your cat I am concerned
> about. If you wish to put spin on things to make yourself look better,
> be my guest.
>
I resent the implication that I am trying to "spin" anything! I am trying to
do what is best for Samba. PERIOD.

> But it's not a question of "nutrients" as your vet told you or you
> misunderstood. It's a question of getting calcium stones instead of the
> struvite crystals. You do understand this finally?

I am REALLY getting fed up with your patronizing attitude. YES I understand
that crystals are bad and can lead to serious consequences, including
expensive surgery!

As I said - and you quoted - we did NOT go into detail about the
consequences of a permanent s/d diet because the vet thought it was
premature. He had reservations about going to s/d permanently but still
thought it might be a workable idea if certain precautions were taken. He
did NOT explain those risks or precautions yet because he thought it was
premature; I simply guessed, here in this newsgroups, that supplements or
something of that kind might counteract the negative risks of s/d; those
were not the words of the vet, just my guess.

> Again, it's not a
> question of supplements, it's trading one problem for a more serious
> problem because you are creating an environment of a pH around 6.0. Do
> you understand what an acidic pH of 6.0 can do in the long run? Well,
> it's that time of year and maybe your vet needs to buy presents and
> make a boat payment.
>
And I don't appreciate your saying that my vet is just bull****ting me to
con me out of some money. I have no reason to believe such a thing and I
don't think I've said anything to you to give you the impression that I do.
I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see some concrete reason to
do so; your bad experience with another vet is not my idea of a concrete
reason to doubt MY vet's motives.


> Are you really quoting your vet correctly? Did he really say s/d
> permanently and that it was just a question of "nutrients?" I find this
> difficult to believe.

I did not record the conversation. Between my conversations with him and all
the back-and-forth on this newsgroup, I don't remember exactly what ANYONE
said at this point.

But he did NOT say that a permanent s/d diet could be supplemented with
nutrients: he said something to the effect that an s/d diet could be made to
work and might become necessary but would have some serious risks. The idea
of nutrients being a possible antidote to those risks was simply MY GUESS as
to one of the ways an s/d diet could be made to work.

> Either he must have made a mistake and meant to
> say c/d, not s/d. Or you switched them around and did not grasp
> correctly because you do not want to bother the man with the diploma on
> the wall for which he worked so hard and we bad people here are second
> guessing him. You did post that about second guessing the vet? You ask
> advice, get it, and then shoot the messenger. Are you always so nice?
> If you don't want truthful advice, don't ask for it.

I have explained this time and again to you in direct replies to your posts.
You seem to be determined to find offense where none was intended. Well,
that's your problem. I'm not playing that game.

> I've seen enough
> bad vets that I go by results only, not diplomas, results. You could
> say it's my evidence based medicine or EBM. Vets should post how many
> pets they cured of struvite crystals on their walls. Then I would be
> mightily impressed.
>
And I might be mightily impressed if you said ONE WORD about the basis of
your recommendations. But apparently, I am just supposed to assume that you
know everything there is to know about cats.

> In any case, this is discussed all over the internet. As our resident
> experts, Phil and Steve have also tried to tell you, it's not a good
> idea.
>
> Since you seem so touchy about repeating things and diplomas on the
> wall, so be it.

I have explained that REPEATEDLY. Reread the whole thread and you will see!

> But what you are posting does not add up. But Phil made
> some good suggestions. Get some good lab work done. And be prepared
> that struvite crystals might come back a time or two before they are
> cleared up by your figuring out what to do for your cat.
>

> You can also contact HillsPet.com and call them. They probably have a
> free number for Canada. I also checked their web site and s/d is not to
> be used permanently. As I recall, they suggested six month max. And my
> local vets only about a month. And I'm not overly fond, to put it
> mildly, of feeding both cats the prescription medicine foods but that's
> enough for today.
>
Yes, I've had quite enough myself!

Rhino

Rhino
November 27th 05, 03:22 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>> >
>> > "Steve Crane" > wrote in message
>> > oups.com...
>> >
>> >> Rhino,
>> >> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
>> >> that they are still struvite crystals?
>> >
>> >
>> > That's not good enough, Steve. You've got to analyze the layers of the
>> > crystal and the *core*. Epitaxy can produce a crystal with a struvite
>> > shell
>> > over a CaOx core or vice versa. Once the diet dissolves the struvite,
> the
>> > core will grow rapidly. The factors that produced the mineral at the
> core
>> > can be very different from those that produced other layers or the
> shell.
>> > Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little
>> > coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis.
>> >
>> Like I said elsewhere in this thread, you really *do* "talk the talk" :-)
>
>
> ..and I walk the walk, too. ;)
>
>
>>
>> Phil, are you suggesting another test that I should do to be sure about
> the
>> nature/cause of Samba's urinary problems? If so, what specifically should
> I
>> do?
>
> I'd want a definitive analysis of the crystals if I were you. You want
> what's called 'quantitative mineral analysis'. Sometimes, the core or the
> various layers of the crystal/urolith- or plug can give you clues of what
> was involved in its formation. Some crystals are associated with specific
> disease processes or infection (e.g., infection-induced struvite,
> bilirubin,
> and tyrosine crystals). The shapes and internal structure of crystals can
> vary too much to make a definitive diagnosis based on their physical
> appearance alone.
>
>
>>
>> I should mention that money is *very* tight for me right now. The vet
>> initially recommended that I get blood tests for $175 (Canadian) but
> agreed
>> that the urine sample might be adequate under the circumstances. But if I
>> have to get the blood tests or other tests to make sure Samba is being
>> treated appropriately, I'm prepared to consider them if there is any
>> substantial chance that the current course of treatment is likely to do
> her
>> any harm.
>
> As I said, mineral analysis should provide you with a lot of information-
> although a complete blood work-up wouldn't hurt. At the very least, a
> work-up will give you a baseline for future reference,
>
I'm assuming that the sample used for the initial urine test is long gone so
is not available for the mineral analysis you describe.

However, I have already tentatively scheduled a followup urine test with the
vet for a month from now. If he expresses the urine by squeezing the bladder
again, will that provide an appropriate sample for the mineral analysis? Or
should he be using a different technique to get the sample?

Also, just curious, what does a 'quantitative mineral analysis' cost in your
neck of the woods? (I assume you're in the US.) I'd like to get a ballpark
idea of what the test should cost me in US dollars. (Ideally, that ballpark
idea would include the cost of obtaining the sample to be tested.) I realize
that prices might vary somewhat here; I'm just trying to prepare myself for
how much money I might need to find to pay for the test.

Rhino

Steve Crane
November 27th 05, 03:44 PM
wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:
>
> Now that's really helpful. Thanks. So it's the pH more than the fat
> content which I had read but seemed a little too easy. So I see now why
> the pH goes to 6.3 on average for the senior varieties, to move away
> from struvite and prevent calcium stones for senior cats which are over
> 7? What's a cat do who is 7? Eat 1/2 non-senior and 1/2 senior?

Unfortunately it's never as simple as we wish it would be. Urine pH is
critical, water intake is critical, reducing the levels of minerals
that make up any given crystals or stones is critical, sex is critical
(males more of an issue than females), age of the cat (younger cats
more inclined toward struvite, older cats more inclined toward CaOx),
and the final kicker is of course the genetic pre-disposition of the
individual cat. Some cats can eat all the wrong food, with Ph values
off the chart, loaded with magnesium, and never experience a problem.
There are some other factors as well.

For a normal healthy younger cat 1-6 years urine pH should be 6.2-6.4
For older cats 7+ urine pH needs to be moved up a small amount to
6.6-6.8.


> Do you know of any canned food that is bad specifically? If you do, and
> it's okay, please send me an emal, even anonymously. I won't say
> anything. My lips are sealed.

I do think you should always stay away from the "store brand" generic.
Otherwise it's impossible to give you much help here. I see analyticals
on hundreds of cat foods, some days are good and some days are not.
I've seen the same canned food by the same manufacturer vary widely
from lot to lot.


> I gather you're saying that too much Ca or Mg or P or whatever can
> cause stones? And it's not just the imbalance but just too much?

The hardest part of making a pet food is not making sure that it has
_enough_ of all the neccessary nutrients, but making sure it doesn't
have too much of something undesireable. It's cheap and easy to add
something to a diet, but taking excesses of something out of the diet
is very difficult. I don't think it's accurate to say that if the food
has "too much" Ca, Mg or P that it will induce stone formation, again
all those factors above have to come into play as well. I think it's
fair to say that having too much of those minerals is a risk, and one
that can be reduced and avoided by making sure that excesses of these
minerals are not in the food.


> Too high protein does not figure into this but does with renal failure.
> Do males and females get renal failure at the same rates?

I can't recall a gender difference in cats with renal failure. It may
be there is a difference, but I don't recall anyone doing the work to
measure it. The Elizabeth Lund survey which most of us rely upon for
incidence rates didn't separate that factor - at least I don't think
so. I'll have to take another look at it and see. Protein really isn't
the culprit in renal failure, at least not the primary problem, it's
just that protein and phosphorus are pretty much inseparable. In almost
every case if we have high protein we also have high phosphorus in the
diet. It doesn't _have_ to be that way, but it nearly always is.

> Finally got my snail mail data sheets from Purina asking about the new
> relabled Fancy Feast. The dummies sent me their old information. Can
> you believe that? They release a new product. It's on the shelves.
> Marinated Morsels... It's not exactly the same as the old.

Fun huh?


> Oh, I read that 2 of SD's canned food products reduce shedding. That
> was interesting. I liked one better than the other. Science Diet.
> Hairball Control Adult Chicken Entree. REDUCE SHEDDING. Really true?

Sure, but take it with a grain of salt, and ask yourself - Compared to
what? For the most part you can reduce shedding by making sure the food
has the right levels of essential fatty acids and increasing the skin
barrier function by having higher levels of vitamin E, and making sure
that excess levels of calcium aren't in the diet. That's pretty much
true of all the Science Diet foods.

> I noticed that as I feed her canned food products of good quality
> [Science Diet, or occasionally Wysong, even the 3 Fancy Feasts that I
> consider reasonable out of their 60 different types] - her fur seems
> less dry than on almost 97% Science Diet Light which is dry kibble and
> 3% SD Oral Care.

It's a problem nobody has solved - yet. To reduce weight you have to
reduce fats. When you reduce fats you reduce the oils in the skin that
provide that bright shiny coat. We can add higher levels of Omega fatty
acids, but that's added fat which brings along some caloric content.
Figuring out which of the many Omega fatty acids are required to keep
the fur nice and shiny but will add the least amount of calories is
still a technical obstacle. If the cats weight can be brought to
normal, then moving from a Light product to regular food, but reducing
the quantity can work. It's a subject of much debate and a technical
problem that a lot of people are spending a lot of time on.


> Given the, do you recommend r/d or m/d to reduce weight? Or is this a
> non sequitor?

I still prefer r/d, especially on older cats which are commonly where
we have obesity problems anyway. m/d will work very well but it's so
difficult to get pet owners to follow feeding directions. Accurately
measuring 3/8th of a cup is difficult. If pet owners can be religiously
careful about measureing the quantity of food it works very well.


> The other SD Hairball one had meat by-products first and this one lists
> chicken, turkey giblets before the meat by-products. I know, it may not
> matter and it's better to have meat by-products rather than sky high
> phosphorus or protein or wacky pH levels. But I still am not sure
> exactly what is in meat by-products not that I'm all that worried about
> mad cow disease and renegade prions. I know they try to separate out
> the bad stuff and it's supposedly human grade but well, it keeps the
> price down I gather.

It's certainly a problem. The perception of "by-products" created by
Nutro and other pet food companies trying to find a niche in the market
is so pervasive. Fear sells, even better than sex I think. I suspect
that this will quiet down now that Nutro can no longer make any claims
that they do not use by-products. As a point of fact nearly every pet
food ingredient is legally defined as a "by-product". For example
chicken meal is a "by-product" under the rules, but because the legally
defined term isn't "chicken meal by-product", nobody is concerned.
Brewers rice is a by-product, rice bran is a by product, and the list
goes on and on.

November 27th 05, 03:51 PM
Rhino wrote:
> I am REALLY getting fed up with your patronizing attitude. YES I understand
> that crystals are bad and can lead to serious consequences, including
> expensive surgery!

Good, don't patronize me and I won't patronize you, deal?

> And I don't appreciate your saying that my vet is just bull****ting me to
> con me out of some money. I have no reason to believe such a thing and I
> don't think I've said anything to you to give you the impression that I do.
> I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see some concrete reason to
> do so; your bad experience with another vet is not my idea of a concrete
> reason to doubt MY vet's motives.

At this point I have no idea what your vet really said and you;re not
too suret either and he's not here. Anyway, my throwing out a
suggestion of greed or implying is valid. Take it or leave it. I had
one vet tell me flat out that she makes money on the hospitalizations
and an awful lot of money even though there were other options, less
expensive options.

> But he did NOT say that a permanent s/d diet could be supplemented with
> nutrients: he said something to the effect that an s/d diet could be made to
> work and might become necessary but would have some serious risks. The idea
> of nutrients being a possible antidote to those risks was simply MY GUESS as
> to one of the ways an s/d diet could be made to work.

I don't think this was a good guess. An antidote like affecting the pH
levels would make the exercise of taking SD's s/d moot.

> > I've seen enough
> > bad vets that I go by results only, not diplomas, results. You could
> > say it's my evidence based medicine or EBM. Vets should post how many
> > pets they cured of struvite crystals on their walls. Then I would be
> > mightily impressed.
> >
> And I might be mightily impressed if you said ONE WORD about the basis of
> your recommendations. But apparently, I am just supposed to assume that you
> know everything there is to know about cats.

I think I did. Hillspet.com makes Science Diet. They have
recommendations on their web site. They also will answer questions on
the phone. I threw out an article, fully referenced with its abstract,
in another thread about struvite crystals, storage, sampling, and all
wet food diets. It's probably the first to establish a connection, done
overseas. In any case, I am just trying to figure out how your vet
could do s/d permanently. I never heard that or read that before. I
just don't find that anywhere so my recommendation is an
anti-recommendation. Get a second opinion.

November 27th 05, 04:29 PM
Rhino wrote:
> I SAID NO SUCH THING! I have never failed to feed my cats a good quality
> food twice a day and never will. You are either confusing me with another
> post or you're delusional.

That's true. I confused you with another thread but the same problem. I
apologize.

I did reference an article, the first, which was done in Europe that
might have relevance here for your vet. You had asked me any reference
so this is one aside from my original suggestion to contact Hills
directly:

In North America, call 1-800-445-5777 from 8 a.m. - 5 p.m. CST,
Monday-Friday.

I'm not sure if you can ask to speak to a vet directly. Royal Canin put
me in touch with their vet when the regular telephone answerers could
not answer my question which was rather technical. As Steve points out,
SD does do consultations with vets and maybe might with you, if you can
spare the time, since your question is about the long-term use of c/d
and s/d based on a vet's suggestion and you may not have the time to
sample all the vets in your area for differing opinions.

National Library of Medicine MEDLINE Database

TITL: An investigation into the effects of storage on the
diagnosis of crystalluria in cats.

AUTH: Sturgess C P; Hesford A; Owen H; Privett R

ORGA: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of
Bristol, Langford, Bristol BS40 5DU, UK.

CITE: J Feline Med Surg 2001 Jun; 3 (2): 81-5
Volume 3, Issue 2

ABST: Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of
urinary tract disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored
under differing condition and then examined for the presence of
crystalluria. Crystalluria was detected in at least one stored
sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed wet/dry food diet compared to
24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not detected in any
sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets.
Copyright 2001 European Society of Feline Medicine.

So it might seem that your vet is misinformed if he thinks c/d would
prevent crystals. I don't think that's a good idea in any case. Let me
look up the pH levels of c/d, s/d is around 5.9 to 6.1, quite acidic.
Okay, c/d is normal range, 6.2 to 6.4 which is somewhat acidic but all
Science Diet foods, even the regular ones, except for the senior cats,
are in this range. A senior cat is 7+ whatever that means. I just wrote
an email to SD asking if that means 7 or 8 or what really is the age.
In any case, the senior food is 6.4 to 6.6 pH presumably to prevent the
calcium stones that seniors are more prone to.

I sent for the full, original article and it was fairly well done and
convinced me that wet food alone influences or can influence or does
influence the prevention of struvite crystal formations. Now Steve from
SD has suggested here that foods which are out of whack in the minerals
in their compositions could also do that. In any case, I am now feeding
my cat good canned food, somewhere around 1/2 her kcals, and I must say
that her fur looks better and she sheds less. I had been feeding her an
all dry diet but I have a feeling that is not best. I had used mostly
SD Light and SD Oral Care.

In the future, I will be giving her distilled water. I thought about
the question you raised and reviewed my notes on water. I did some
experiments on the water and actually forgot I have in storage a
complete distillation apparatus. In any case, if my water gets near 400
ppm, which the water report indicates in general, then that's 400
mg/liter. Assuming again that 33% is magnesium then that's 1/3 x 400 or
133 mg/liter. One liter is 1 liter = 33.814 fluid ounces. Assuming what
Phil suggests for a 10 pound cat, that's about 7 to 10 ounces of water
per day. So theoretically, my municipal water supply could give the cat
an additional... 133/33.8 around 4 mg of magnesium per ounce of water.
So that's around 28 to 40 mg of magnesium not counting the water in the
food but just drinking 7 ot 10 ounces which I doubt that she does. But
I've not measured it but I could weigh the dish, forgot evaporation for
a moment unless I find a simple explanation. Okay, this is getting
complicated. Distilled water until I work out all the details.

Phone rang. Sorry about the confusion.

November 27th 05, 08:02 PM
Steve Crane wrote:
> For a normal healthy younger cat 1-6 years urine pH should be 6.2-6.4
> For older cats 7+ urine pH needs to be moved up a small amount to
> 6.6-6.8.

I keep getting that confused with 6.4 to 6.6. So it's just slightly
acidic.
> The hardest part of making a pet food is not making sure that it has
> _enough_ of all the neccessary nutrients, but making sure it doesn't
> have too much of something undesireable. It's cheap and easy to add
> something to a diet, but taking excesses of something out of the diet
> is very difficult. I don't think it's accurate to say that if the food
> has "too much" Ca, Mg or P that it will induce stone formation, again
> all those factors above have to come into play as well. I think it's
> fair to say that having too much of those minerals is a risk, and one
> that can be reduced and avoided by making sure that excesses of these
> minerals are not in the food.

Putting the genie back into the bottle is not so easy. Interesting.

> I can't recall a gender difference in cats with renal failure. It may
> be there is a difference, but I don't recall anyone doing the work to
> measure it. The Elizabeth Lund survey which most of us rely upon for
> incidence rates didn't separate that factor - at least I don't think
> so. I'll have to take another look at it and see. Protein really isn't
> the culprit in renal failure, at least not the primary problem, it's
> just that protein and phosphorus are pretty much inseparable. In almost
> every case if we have high protein we also have high phosphorus in the
> diet. It doesn't _have_ to be that way, but it nearly always is.

I've seen some high protein without high phosphorus. I was looking at
the USDA SR-18 data base for chicken and turkey. It's doable but
probably cost problems since one needs to go close to pure meat.


> > Finally got my snail mail data sheets from Purina asking about the new
> > relabled Fancy Feast. The dummies sent me their old information. Can
> > you believe that? They release a new product. It's on the shelves.
> > Marinated Morsels... It's not exactly the same as the old.
>
> Fun huh?

Grrr.

> I still prefer r/d, especially on older cats which are commonly where
> we have obesity problems anyway. m/d will work very well but it's so
> difficult to get pet owners to follow feeding directions. Accurately
> measuring 3/8th of a cup is difficult. If pet owners can be religiously
> careful about measureing the quantity of food it works very well.

Yup, a gram scale is easier and "weigh" more accurate.

> It's certainly a problem. The perception of "by-products" created by
> Nutro and other pet food companies trying to find a niche in the market
> is so pervasive. Fear sells, even better than sex I think. I suspect
> that this will quiet down now that Nutro can no longer make any claims
> that they do not use by-products. As a point of fact nearly every pet
> food ingredient is legally defined as a "by-product". For example
> chicken meal is a "by-product" under the rules, but because the legally
> defined term isn't "chicken meal by-product", nobody is concerned.
> Brewers rice is a by-product, rice bran is a by product, and the list
> goes on and on.

I think the mad cow disease is also a factor. I had thought about
prions and doubted very much if contamination when they debone the cow
could be prevented. And sure enough, the FDA is now saying they cannot
really contain the possible cross-contamination from the spinal cord
and brain and maybe even other organs can contain the dreaded protein
prions. And this was for human grade food so I had doubts that pet food
would enjoy the same oversight. Theoretically yes, but practically I
would like my skepticism to be refuted.

I know it's absurd but my cat refuses beef. And I am reluctant to buy
her beef. She also refuses rabbit and venison. In fact, when she came
upon a den of tiny, just born little baby rabbits, she just stared,
like what the #$%^* are these little crawly creatures? I'm so glad she
did not eat them. They did not act like prey fortunately but just
squirmed around like so many snakes. She's a former city cat so it's
sparrows and mice mostly but lately she is getting lazy.

Steve Crane
November 27th 05, 09:11 PM
wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:

> I think the mad cow disease is also a factor. I had thought about
> prions and doubted very much if contamination when they debone the cow
> could be prevented. And sure enough, the FDA is now saying they cannot
> really contain the possible cross-contamination from the spinal cord
> and brain and maybe even other organs can contain the dreaded protein
> prions. And this was for human grade food so I had doubts that pet food
> would enjoy the same oversight. Theoretically yes, but practically I
> would like my skepticism to be refuted.

I think it is a good idea to think about the difference between
"possibility" and "probability". It is certainly *possible* that a
meteoroid will stike me on my way into the office tomorrow morning.
Those pesky 5:30 AM meteor showers are such a drag. :-) But then again,
it is not in the least *probable* that I won't make it into my office
at 6 AM like I usually do. The chance of any beef used in cat foods
containing BSE prions is probably less likely than being stuck by a
meteor. No cat in the US, even those consuming the cheapest meat by
products, has ever been diagnosed with the feline version of this
disease attributed to an infected cow. BSE contamination in cat foods
is very much an internet fantasy disease.

The term "human grade" is incorrect. There is no such thing under the
law. "Human edible" is the correct term and can never be applied to a
pet food. Some less than scrupulous manufacturers apparently have no
concern about honesty and use the term "human grade" to fool consumers.
Point of fact no pet food contains human edible materials. That's
anothe example of selling fear thing I alluded to earlier - apparently
better than sex for selling things.

November 27th 05, 10:53 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

> The term "human grade" is incorrect. There is no such thing under the
> law. "Human edible" is the correct term and can never be applied to a
> pet food. Some less than scrupulous manufacturers apparently have no
> concern about honesty and use the term "human grade" to fool consumers.
> Point of fact no pet food contains human edible materials. That's
> anothe example of selling fear thing I alluded to earlier - apparently
> better than sex for selling things.

That's my bad. I actually discussed this with SD or maybe Purina, and I
think the actual words used were that the same facilities for
processing human food were used for the pet food. I just threw in human
grade not knowing the actual jargon or technical nomenclature. It's
possible some place other than SD used the words human grade but it's
been so long since I asked for those definitions of meal, by-products,
natural flavor and so on.

When you say no pet food contains human edible materials, I gather you
mean from a legal point of view. I guess I'm having trouble seeing if a
pet food has just chicken meat in it, and that's all so not certified
as even a pet food product per se, that would be human edible but not
legal to sell for such?

By the way, for a 10 pound cat or 5 kilo/11 pound cat, what is the
range for calcium and magnesium and phosphorus. Do you know offhand?
Like what is the high and low for those nutrients given a spayed or
neutered cat, indoor, lazy, around 6 years of age? I'm still trying to
figure out the municipal water supply which can approach 400 ppm or 400
mg/l for Total Dissolved Solids. It's interesting. I'll try not to get
too interested because next I'll be asking what form of magnesium, MgO
or what? Don't want to get off on a tangent until it's tangent time.

Thanks for your replies.

Phil P.
November 28th 05, 04:59 AM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
...

> I'm assuming that the sample used for the initial urine test is long gone
so
> is not available for the mineral analysis you describe.


She may still have some crystals in her urine.


>
> However, I have already tentatively scheduled a followup urine test with
the
> vet for a month from now. If he expresses the urine by squeezing the
bladder
> again, will that provide an appropriate sample for the mineral analysis?
Or
> should he be using a different technique to get the sample?


I'm not crazy about bladder expression because it contaminates the urine
with bacteria that normally inhabit the distal urinary tract. However, for
mineral analysis, it should be fine. I wouldn't recommend it for a male cat
without taking x-rays first.



>
> Also, just curious, what does a 'quantitative mineral analysis' cost in
your
> neck of the woods? (I assume you're in the US.) I'd like to get a ballpark
> idea of what the test should cost me in US dollars. (Ideally, that
ballpark
> idea would include the cost of obtaining the sample to be tested.) I
realize
> that prices might vary somewhat here; I'm just trying to prepare myself
for
> how much money I might need to find to pay for the test.

$30- $50- depending on how much your vet marks up the lab bill. The vet
will probably send the sample to the U of Minn. Urolith Lab. You can call
the lab yourself for the price just to get an idea. Here's their number:
612-625-4221. We don't use that lab, so I don't know their prices.

Good luck.

Phil

yngver
November 28th 05, 05:14 PM
I've just read this thread, and it concerns me that our cat is on a
diet of Royal Canin Urinary SO for struvite crystals. This is for a
female cat age 8. She had struvite crystals at a routine urinary
analysis. When repeated, there were no crystals but on the next visit
two months later there were crystals again. After three months on S/O
there were no crystals. The vet said we could either keep her on S/O
indefinitely or switch back to her regular food but that the crystals
may re-appear. She has been eating both the canned and the dry version.
Now I am concerned that the Royal Canin struvite formula is not meant
to be fed long-term either, just as has been said of the Hills version.
Does anyone know if the S/O is only meant to be fed short-term?
Thanks--
Yngver

November 28th 05, 07:01 PM
yngver wrote:
> I've just read this thread, and it concerns me that our cat is on a
> diet of Royal Canin Urinary SO for struvite crystals. This is for a
> female cat age 8. She had struvite crystals at a routine urinary
> analysis. When repeated, there were no crystals but on the next visit
> two months later there were crystals again. After three months on S/O
> there were no crystals. The vet said we could either keep her on S/O
> indefinitely or switch back to her regular food but that the crystals
> may re-appear. She has been eating both the canned and the dry version.
> Now I am concerned that the Royal Canin struvite formula is not meant
> to be fed long-term either, just as has been said of the Hills version.
> Does anyone know if the S/O is only meant to be fed short-term?
> Thanks--
> Yngver

Telephone: 1-800-592-6687 Royal Canin. Persist if at first they don't
answer. They will boost your call to even possibly a vet. They are
quite good in this respect. In fact, on their web site they say to call
the above number because they don't list details on prescription foods.


Ask what is the pH of the involved food.
If the pH is quite acidic, around 6.0, then it's unlikely to be fed
long-term, going by Science Diet's specifications. Long-term would be
unlikely to have this low a pH but double-check. They might have 2
different foods, one long and one short-term like Science Diet has. SD
probably has more than 2.

Ask if canned would be best with a little SD Oral Care or a Royal Canin
food, if they have one, just to help clean the teeth. You can clean
your cat's teeth with your thumb or washcloth or cat tooth brush. Not
easy but if you go slow, can usually get a few teeth each time.

One version of Hills is not intended for long term, the other can be
used long term.
So it's best to check this out with them. I would be reluctant to use a
low pH food on a cat that is a senior like yours, a beginning senior
unless I had lots of assurance. For the long term, I would prefer foods
that had a good pH range, moderate nutrients, and wet foods moistly,
low phosphorus. The premium brands like SD and probably Royal Canin,
from what I have seen so far, seem to know about this.

SD for 7+ senior foods, your cat's age range, likes the pH of all SD's
senior foods, prescription or normal, to be around a pH of 6.6 to 6.8.
This helps prevent calcium oxalate stones which are worse than
crystals. You don't want to trade one problem for another. So this is a
critical point to discuss with them.

I'm not a vet. I just talk the jargon now thanks to a lot of vets who
did not give out the info because it's just too ineffective to take an
hour or so to go into the details.

The key may be moisture and food that is moderate in the right
nutrients. I am not familiar with Royal Canin's prescription foods but
I have dealt with them once in regards to diet or weight loss foods and
they were awfully nice. Your question is a good one but I cannot answer
it fully. Others here may have better answers.

November 29th 05, 01:17 AM
yngver wrote:
> I've just read this thread, and it concerns me that our cat is on a
> diet of Royal Canin Urinary SO for struvite crystals. This is for a
> female cat age 8. She had struvite crystals at a routine urinary
> analysis. When repeated, there were no crystals but on the next visit
> two months later there were crystals again. After three months on S/O
> there were no crystals. The vet said we could either keep her on S/O
> indefinitely or switch back to her regular food but that the crystals
> may re-appear. She has been eating both the canned and the dry version.
> Now I am concerned that the Royal Canin struvite formula is not meant
> to be fed long-term either, just as has been said of the Hills version.
> Does anyone know if the S/O is only meant to be fed short-term?
> Thanks--
> Yngver

I seem to recall the S/O being awfully high in salt which could be a
risk factor when fed over the long run and especially in an older cat.
High levels of salt are a risk factor for cats with renal disease (even
sub-clinical renal disease). Perhaps an ERD (early renal disease)
feline test would be one diagnostic option to rule out kidney
dysfunction? :)

---MIKE---
November 29th 05, 02:00 PM
Rhino wrote in the original post:

>>I would dearly love to prevent any
>> future bouts of this problem so if
>> anyone can suggest causes of crystal
>> formation or a food that would be
>> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
>> it.

All of this discussion avoids answering the above comments. Feed a good
quality canned food once the crystals have gone. Good quality:
Wellness, Innova, Science Diet, Iams, SOME Friskies varieties, and there
are others. When I say Science Diet, I refer to the varieties sold over
the counter NOT those sold by vets. I only use the dry food for treats.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Rhino
November 29th 05, 07:44 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Rhino,
>
> What I did with Abernathy was read up about urinary problems on different
> website, and ask questions here -- as soon as he was diagnosed with a
> problem.
>
> Because I was learning new things and did not really know what to ask the
> vet in the first appointment, I asked her in the follow-up.
>
> Your cat will need a follow-up urine check even if he seems to be acting
> better. What we did is collect a urine sample at home (the vet gave us a
> kit of plastic crystals for litter and a syringe) and ran that into their
> office. This saved him the stress of another trip.
>
I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to hear
more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home. The vet
and his assistant had a bit of a challenge in collecting her urine sample at
his office; I'm afraid that my fumble-fingered efforts might stress her MORE
that a vet visit :-)

Also, I live alone so have no one handy to help hold her, although I could
possibly persuade a friend to come over and help. Samba's a real sweetheart
but she can be a handful when you are trying to do something against her
will. For example, it used to take three adults just to trim her front
claws - one holding her under the armpits, one holding her back feet down,
and one trimming - although I can trim her nails by myself now.

> It was pretty easy to say to the vet "I've been learning and reading about
> urinary problems in cats, and wondered what kind of crystals he has,
> wonder about different foods" etc. She is very easy to talk to anyway, and
> will often say "good question" when we ask something. She encourages us to
> learn more and ask questions about the problem. I hope your vet is like
> that. You can always say that "I'm on a cat group and someone mentioned
> some things about s/d..." or whatever it is, and see what the vet thinks.
>
I've been a bit erratic in responding to this thread but I have been
following much of the advice in it. Your advice on how to approach the vet
has been very useful and I found him pretty receptive to my questions and
concerns; he also gave me a copy of the lab report from Samba's urine test
without objection.

I really appreciate that advice. I guess I'm a bit "old school" in terms of
being reluctant to question experts with diplomas on their walls so it's
good for me (and Samba!) to get a bit more assertive/pro-active.

Rhino

>
> Rhino wrote:
>
>> As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet
>> of s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just
>> didn't discuss them at length; I don't think he wanted to spend a lot of
>> time on the phone discussing "what ifs" when he was relatively hopeful
>> that the antibiotic and short term s/d diet would solve the problem. I
>> think he intended to revisit this question when and if Samba had further
>> problems after the antibiotics and s/d diet had run their course.
>>
>> Rhino
>

Rhino
November 29th 05, 07:48 PM
Stacey,

I'm posting this to the newsgroup - a few days later that I'd planned! - but
since you haven't posted to the thread in a few days, I'm taking the liberty
of copying your email address. I hope you don't mind....

Could you kindly tell me how to find the Yahoo newsgroup you mentioned in
your post? Also, do I need an invitation to join and, if yes, how do I get
one?

It might be wise to spend a bit of time there to learn more about cat
nutrition.

Also, would a lab test indicating struvite crystals indicate that Samba in
fact has FLUTD? Or are the crystals just a precursor to FLUTD?

Rhino

"Stacey Weinberger" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat
> Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on
> wood). Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is
> better for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities.
> A cat with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added
> water in their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl.
> Dry food provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that
> the urine doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the
> bladder.
>
> Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a little
> water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again.
> He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still add
> water to the food to keep him diluted.
>
> Stacey
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>>
>>> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
>>> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
>>> various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
>>> information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
>>> teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of
>>> norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
>>> the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
>>> at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
>>> the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
>>> way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
>>> until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
>>> decision has to be on hold.
>>>
>> I dropped in on the vet this afternoon and he gave me a copy of the lab
>> report for Samba. Here goes:
>> -------------------------
>> URINALYSIS:
>> Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
>> Specific Gravity: 1.054
>> pH: 6.5
>> Urobilinogen: Normal
>> Blood: Trace amount
>> Urine Bilirubin: Negative
>> Glucose: Negative
>> Ketones: Negative
>> Protein: +
>>
>> MICROSCOPY:
>> SEDIMENT
>> RBC: occasional
>> Squamous epithelial: occasional
>> WBC: occasional
>> CRYSTALS
>> Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
>> -------------------------
>>
>> The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.
>>
>> He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup
>> urine test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their
>> jobs.
>>
>> I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
>> said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
>> problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
>> the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
>> was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
>> advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.
>>
>> He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
>> problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
>> noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
>> this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control
>> people in the public utility.
>>
>> I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well
>> as anyone else who might still be watching this thread.
>>
>> Rhino
>>
>
>

Steve Crane
November 29th 05, 08:10 PM
wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:
>
> > The term "human grade" is incorrect. There is no such thing under the
> > law. "Human edible" is the correct term and can never be applied to a
> > pet food. Some less than scrupulous manufacturers apparently have no
> > concern about honesty and use the term "human grade" to fool consumers.
> > Point of fact no pet food contains human edible materials. That's
> > anothe example of selling fear thing I alluded to earlier - apparently
> > better than sex for selling things.
>
> That's my bad. I actually discussed this with SD or maybe Purina, and I
> think the actual words used were that the same facilities for
> processing human food were used for the pet food. I just threw in human
> grade not knowing the actual jargon or technical nomenclature. It's
> possible some place other than SD used the words human grade but it's
> been so long since I asked for those definitions of meal, by-products,
> natural flavor and so on.
>
> When you say no pet food contains human edible materials, I gather you
> mean from a legal point of view. I guess I'm having trouble seeing if a
> pet food has just chicken meat in it, and that's all so not certified
> as even a pet food product per se, that would be human edible but not
> legal to sell for such?

Yes that's correct. The legal term is human edible. That means the food
product has never left the USDA inspection "chain". Technically if you
buy a steak at Krogers and walk out the door, the steak is no longer
human edible, because it has passed outside of the USDA inspection
area. All pet food meats, grains etc originate in human food production
facilities, it's from human chicken slaughter houses that chicken parts
not normally eaten by humans get "created" for pet food use. The minute
they pass out of the USDA slaughterhouse they are no longer human
edible. To make claims of "human grade" is really a dishonest term. It
leads pet owners to think their cat is getting the same piece of
chicken breast they buy at the grocery store - which is utter nonsense.
All it takes is a little math to figure that isn't the case. Whole
chicken sells for $2.50-$3.00 a pound at the grocery store. Assume half
the bag is chicken at $3 a pound and the food inside would cost nearly
$40, add the retailers margin, profit etc and you would be paying $75
for a 20 pound bag.

Anytime I see a pet food company claiming "human grade" I know they are
deliberately deceiving the pet owner. You have to assume they are at
least bright enough to know the term is meaningless under the law and
that the average pet owner will assume it is the same "chicken" they
would buy at the grocery store. Making such a claim is pure Madison Ave
marketing glitz and dishonest glitz at that.

>
> By the way, for a 10 pound cat or 5 kilo/11 pound cat, what is the
> range for calcium and magnesium and phosphorus. Do you know offhand?
> Like what is the high and low for those nutrients given a spayed or
> neutered cat, indoor, lazy, around 6 years of age? I'm still trying to
> figure out the municipal water supply which can approach 400 ppm or 400
> mg/l for Total Dissolved Solids. It's interesting. I'll try not to get
> too interested because next I'll be asking what form of magnesium, MgO
> or what? Don't want to get off on a tangent until it's tangent time.

Assumption - this is the "average" 10 pound cat ingesting 280 kcals per
day -
Range of calcium is 0.5 - 1.0% (Dry Matter Basis)
Range of phosphorus is 0.5 - 0.9%
Range of magesium is 0.04 - 0.1% (Small Animal Clinical Nutrition IV ed
page 309)
Food has 4,000 ME kcals/kg - (kind of average)
Cat needs 6.95% of a kgm per day to equal 280 kcals per day or 69.5
grams per day to provide 280 kcals per day.

Round it off to 70 grams per day for the sake of the math
Calcium
70 grams X 0.5% = 0.35 grams per day (times 1,000 mgs in a gram) = 350
mgs per day
70 grams X 1.0% = 0.7 grams per day (times 1000) = 700 mgs per day

Phos
70 grams X 0.04% = 0.28 grams per day (times 1,000) = 280 mgs per day
70 grams X 0.09% = 0.63 grams per day = 630 mgs per day

Magnesium
70 grams X 0.004 = .028 grams per day = 28 mgs per day
70 grams X 0.01 = .07 grams per day = 70 mgs per day.


Math is not my best activity so somebody ought to check my math here.

For comparison a 10 pound adult cat would ingest
523 mgs of calcium
481 mgs of phosphorus
42 mgs of magnesium
Feeding Science Diet Feline Adult Original
So I think the math is right

Stacey
November 29th 05, 08:21 PM
Hi Rhino,

Here is the url of the yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catswithflutd/?yguid=1262309

You have to answer a few questions when you join before your membership is
approved. This is just a way to keep out trolls. I think FLUTD is the general
term for urinary tract disease of all kinds including crystals, cystitis, etc.

I learned a wealth of information from that group, the IBD list as well.

Good luck!

Stacey

In article >, Rhino says...
>
>Stacey,
>
>I'm posting this to the newsgroup - a few days later that I'd planned! - but
>since you haven't posted to the thread in a few days, I'm taking the liberty
>of copying your email address. I hope you don't mind....
>
>Could you kindly tell me how to find the Yahoo newsgroup you mentioned in
>your post? Also, do I need an invitation to join and, if yes, how do I get
>one?
>
>It might be wise to spend a bit of time there to learn more about cat
>nutrition.
>
>Also, would a lab test indicating struvite crystals indicate that Samba in
>fact has FLUTD? Or are the crystals just a precursor to FLUTD?
>
>Rhino
>
>"Stacey Weinberger" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat
>> Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on
>> wood). Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is
>> better for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities.
>> A cat with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added
>> water in their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl.
>> Dry food provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that
>> the urine doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the
>> bladder.
>>
>> Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a little
>> water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again.
>> He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still add
>> water to the food to keep him diluted.
>>
>> Stacey
>>
>> "Rhino" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for
>>>> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in
>>>> various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical
>>>> information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's
>>>> teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of
>>>> norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve
>>>> the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination
>>>> at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is
>>>> the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best
>>>> way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but
>>>> until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that
>>>> decision has to be on hold.
>>>>
>>> I dropped in on the vet this afternoon and he gave me a copy of the lab
>>> report for Samba. Here goes:
>>> -------------------------
>>> URINALYSIS:
>>> Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
>>> Specific Gravity: 1.054
>>> pH: 6.5
>>> Urobilinogen: Normal
>>> Blood: Trace amount
>>> Urine Bilirubin: Negative
>>> Glucose: Negative
>>> Ketones: Negative
>>> Protein: +
>>>
>>> MICROSCOPY:
>>> SEDIMENT
>>> RBC: occasional
>>> Squamous epithelial: occasional
>>> WBC: occasional
>>> CRYSTALS
>>> Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.
>>>
>>> He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup
>>> urine test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their
>>> jobs.
>>>
>>> I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
>>> said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
>>> problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
>>> the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
>>> was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
>>> advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.
>>>
>>> He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
>>> problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
>>> noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
>>> this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control
>>> people in the public utility.
>>>
>>> I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well
>>> as anyone else who might still be watching this thread.
>>>
>>> Rhino
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Rhino
November 29th 05, 08:43 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Is 2/3 of a cup
>> "lots" for a 10.5 lb female?
>
> A cat's daily water needs in ml are about equal to their energy needs in
> kcals. IOW, a 10.5# (4.75 kg) a daily energy requirement of about 45
> kcals/kg. So, 45 x 4.75 = 213 kcals or 213 ml of water or about 7 oz. A
> good rule of thumb is about 1 oz per pound per day. That includes
> moisture
> from the diet
>
So, in Samba's case, she's not getting enough moisture then, right? She's on
dry s/d right now to reduce the crystals. How do I get her to increase her
intake of water? Or do I wait until she's finished the s/d and then switch
her to wet c/d and assume a few more weeks of insufficient water will not
harm her? After all, this has been her water intake for 5 years now....

Rhino

Rhino
November 29th 05, 08:50 PM
"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
Steve,

I posted the result of Samba's lab test a few days back but you haven't
responded; perhaps you didn't see it amongst all the other remarks on this
thread. I'm taking the liberty of copying you at your email address; I hope
that's okay. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on diet now that I have
the actual lab results.

Here it is again, just so that you don't have to hunt through the thread for
it:

-------------------------
URINALYSIS:
Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
Specific Gravity: 1.054
pH: 6.5
Urobilinogen: Normal
Blood: Trace amount
Urine Bilirubin: Negative
Glucose: Negative
Ketones: Negative
Protein: +

MICROSCOPY:
SEDIMENT
RBC: occasional
Squamous epithelial: occasional
WBC: occasional
CRYSTALS
Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
-------------------------

The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.

He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup urine
test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their jobs.

I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.

He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control people
in the public utility.

I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well as
anyone else who might still be watching this thread.

Rhino

5cats
November 29th 05, 08:56 PM
Rhino wrote:

> I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to
> hear more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home.

It depends on what the cat will deal with.

The vets can supply a non-absorbant plastic litter substitute that some
cats will use in place of regular litter. Just put the plastic pellets in
an empty box, wait for the cat to pee and then syringe the urine out and
into a specimin bottle. This has worked for one of my cats.

Unless, you have a cat who doesn't recognize the plastic stuff as
suitable material. I have one like that, but she will tolerate me doing a
"free-catch" collection. Step one is to feed her and she usually drinks a
bit of water after eating, step two is to pick her up and place her in a
litter box, she'll usually agree that this is a good idea and proceed to
use the box. As soon as she starts, I stick the bottle under her rear and
let her fill it up.

I have another cat who will pee willingly in an empty litter box. I just
leave him in a room with an empty box, come back in a while and there's
the sample ready to pour into a bottle. (I don't think this behavior is
very common. )

And I've got another cat that nothing so far has worked for. He will pee
on the carpet before he uses the plastic pellets or an empty box. He also
declines the opportunity to use a box after meals. I've had to let the
vet collect the sample from him.

PawsForThought
November 29th 05, 09:22 PM
Rhino wrote:I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was
reluctant; he
> said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
> problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
> the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much.

I'd be interested in what "other problems" your vet is talking about.
You might want to show him this article:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/zorans_article.pdf

Rhino
November 29th 05, 09:22 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Rhino" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Is 2/3 of a cup
>> "lots" for a 10.5 lb female?
>
> A cat's daily water needs in ml are about equal to their energy needs in
> kcals. IOW, a 10.5# (4.75 kg) a daily energy requirement of about 45
> kcals/kg. So, 45 x 4.75 = 213 kcals or 213 ml of water or about 7 oz. A
> good rule of thumb is about 1 oz per pound per day. That includes
> moisture
> from the diet
>
One other question, Phil, if I may?

How long should I expect to wait for the Orbax and s/d to help reduce
Samba's crystal formation? I'll be giving her the last Orbax pill with
dinner tonight and she's been on both the Orbax and s/d for a week now.

This morning, when I went into the bathroom, I noticed another towel pulled
down on the floor and found that it had been peed on. At first, I was really
scared thinking that the treatment wasn't working or that Bebop was peeing
on the towel - or even that Bebop had been peeing on the towel all along and
that it had been a mistake to think Samba had the problem in the first
place. But now, after a few hours to calm down, it seems more likely that
the Orbax and s/d hasn't had enough of a chance to work yet. What are your
thoughts on that?

Speaking of Bebop, who is a 5 1/2 year old neutered male who was adopted at
the same time as Samba but is apparently unrelated, should I be doing
anything special about him? The vet wasn't able to get a urine sample from
him when I had both him and Samba examined last week; he had apparently just
urinated. When we found cloudiness in Samba's urine, I think we both just
assumed that Samba was the culprit and that Bebop was ruled out as a
suspect. Was that too hasty? After all, they both have the same diet and
have eaten exactly the same things since they were adopted. If anything,
Bebop seems a better candidate for urinary problems; he loves to hop up on
the dinner table and lick the grease off my plate or try to scrounge a bit
of gravy or whatever whereas Samba does not scrounge. Perhaps they both have
problems but only Samba's crystals have been diagnosed?

I really do have very limited resources right now so I am definitely not
looking for an excuse to spend money on unnecessary tests. But I don't want
to neglect Bebop's health either.

I'm really not sure how to proceed. I'd like to be as pro-active as
possible; if I care for them well, maybe I can prevent any future crystals
or other illnesses....

Rhino

Stacey
November 29th 05, 09:25 PM
Unbelievable. Cats need water in their diet. Dry food might be convenient, but
experience of thousands of cats or not, it is not the optimum diet. Dry food
provides no liquid and a FLUTD cat especially needs fluids to prevent the
formation of crystals. IMHO your vet is stubborn and hasn't done a lot of
research into cat nutrition. Now I'm not advocating a raw diet, and have seen
some say that is the only way to feed a cat, but Ieven I know a cat needs
moisture in the food. Drinking water from a bowl is not enough. Even if it is
chicken or turkey (no salt!) babyfood added to the food or some water added to
the food for now. Sorry to say I think you need a new vet who will discuss
your cat's diet with you, not at you. I know it's not easy, but i don't like
vets with a know-it-all, do not question attitude. I've changed a vet before
because of that.

Stacey

In article >, Rhino says...
>
>
>"Steve Crane" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>Steve,
>
>I posted the result of Samba's lab test a few days back but you haven't
>responded; perhaps you didn't see it amongst all the other remarks on this
>thread. I'm taking the liberty of copying you at your email address; I hope
>that's okay. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on diet now that I have
>the actual lab results.
>
>Here it is again, just so that you don't have to hunt through the thread for
>it:
>
>-------------------------
>URINALYSIS:
>Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear
>Specific Gravity: 1.054
>pH: 6.5
>Urobilinogen: Normal
>Blood: Trace amount
>Urine Bilirubin: Negative
>Glucose: Negative
>Ketones: Negative
>Protein: +
>
>MICROSCOPY:
> SEDIMENT
> RBC: occasional
> Squamous epithelial: occasional
> WBC: occasional
> CRYSTALS
> Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF
>-------------------------
>
>The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate.
>
>He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup urine
>test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their jobs.
>
>I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he
>said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental
>problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about
>the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I
>was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his
>advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs.
>
>He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's
>problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in
>noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that
>this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control people
>in the public utility.
>
>I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well as
>anyone else who might still be watching this thread.
>
>Rhino
>
>

Rhonda
November 30th 05, 05:51 AM
Rhino wrote:

> I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to hear
> more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home. The vet
> and his assistant had a bit of a challenge in collecting her urine sample at
> his office; I'm afraid that my fumble-fingered efforts might stress her MORE
> that a vet visit :-)


What we did was scrub out the litter box, then put the plastic pellets
in as litter. Of course, he didn't want to use it because of that, so I
put a small amount of his regular litter scattered inside so that he
could smell that. Then I waited and jumped up the minute he was done and
drew some out in a syringe. We took the syringe in as is.

The urine crystallizes on it's own when it's old, so you have to get it
to the vet right away. If you can't, then ask them how to handle it.
Ours told us to refrigerate it if we could not get it there within one hour.

The way I got him to go, was to load up his wet food one morning with
water. I made it pretty soupy. When he lapped out most of that water, I
added more. I had him closed in my office and I just parked in front of
the computer and waited. He went within an hour or so.



> I've been a bit erratic in responding to this thread but I have been
> following much of the advice in it. Your advice on how to approach the vet
> has been very useful and I found him pretty receptive to my questions and
> concerns; he also gave me a copy of the lab report from Samba's urine test
> without objection.
>
> I really appreciate that advice. I guess I'm a bit "old school" in terms of
> being reluctant to question experts with diplomas on their walls so it's
> good for me (and Samba!) to get a bit more assertive/pro-active.


I'm glad that worked out for you. I think we have to be proactive about
our own health and our pet's health, which means asking lots of
questions. I honestly don't think any good vet would resent that.


Let us know how his check-up turns out.

Rhonda

Phil P.
November 30th 05, 12:01 PM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Rhino" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Is 2/3 of a cup
> >> "lots" for a 10.5 lb female?
> >
> > A cat's daily water needs in ml are about equal to their energy needs in
> > kcals. IOW, a 10.5# (4.75 kg) a daily energy requirement of about 45
> > kcals/kg. So, 45 x 4.75 = 213 kcals or 213 ml of water or about 7 oz.
A
> > good rule of thumb is about 1 oz per pound per day. That includes
> > moisture
> > from the diet
> >
> So, in Samba's case, she's not getting enough moisture then, right?

Right.


She's
on
> dry s/d right now to reduce the crystals. How do I get her to increase her
> intake of water?

Switch her to canned s/d- it will practically double her water intake
without drinking a lot of water. Cats aren't naturally big drinkers because
they evolved to get most of their water from their food.


Or do I wait until she's finished the s/d and then switch
> her to wet c/d and assume a few more weeks of insufficient water will not
> harm her?

Yes it will.


>After all, this has been her water intake for 5 years now....


....and she developed crystals. Duh. ;-)

Switch her to canned s/d.

Good luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 30th 05, 12:05 PM
"Rhino" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Rhino" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Is 2/3 of a cup
> >> "lots" for a 10.5 lb female?
> >
> > A cat's daily water needs in ml are about equal to their energy needs in
> > kcals. IOW, a 10.5# (4.75 kg) a daily energy requirement of about 45
> > kcals/kg. So, 45 x 4.75 = 213 kcals or 213 ml of water or about 7 oz.
A
> > good rule of thumb is about 1 oz per pound per day. That includes
> > moisture
> > from the diet
> >
> One other question, Phil, if I may?
>
> How long should I expect to wait for the Orbax and s/d to help reduce
> Samba's crystal formation?


Orbax has nothing to do with dissolving or preventing crystals unless the
crystals are infection-induced struvite.



I'll be giving her the last Orbax pill with
> dinner tonight and she's been on both the Orbax and s/d for a week now.
>
> This morning, when I went into the bathroom, I noticed another towel
pulled
> down on the floor and found that it had been peed on. At first, I was
really
> scared thinking that the treatment wasn't working or that Bebop was peeing
> on the towel - or even that Bebop had been peeing on the towel all along
and
> that it had been a mistake to think Samba had the problem in the first
> place.

Since Bebop is a male, I'd watch his urinating behavior *very* closely.
Crystals can be *fatal* for male cats because they can block a male cat's
urethra which can lead to acute renal failure. Female urethras are too wide
to block.

If your not sure whose urinating inappropriately, ask your vet for
fluorescein test strips- cut them up into little pieces and put them in a #3
gelcap and give it to *one* cat. Buy a small blacklight (Wood's Light) at
Petsmart ($15) and shine it on the urine spot. The fluorescein urine
fluoresces a bight green under a blacklight. If you don't see a bight green
urine under the black light, you'll know the urine came from the other cat.
All feline urine fluoresces, so, shine the black light in the litterbox with
the lights off so you'll know the difference between normal urine and
fluorescein urine.

This is what a blacklight looks like:

http://www.maxshouse.com/Equipment/blacklight.jpg




But now, after a few hours to calm down, it seems more likely that
> the Orbax and s/d hasn't had enough of a chance to work yet. What are your
> thoughts on that?


s/d can take a few weeks or even longer to dissolve crystals. You might want
to have her urine checked while she's on s/d- two reasons: 1. So you'll know
if the diet is working; 2. So you won't feed her s/d any longer than
necessary.


>
> Speaking of Bebop, who is a 5 1/2 year old neutered male who was adopted
at
> the same time as Samba but is apparently unrelated, should I be doing
> anything special about him?


Yeah. I'd have his urine checked, too, to be on the safe side. As I said,
crystals can block a male cat's urethra and cause acute renal failure.
Also, if he's eating dry food, I would *definitely* switch him to a
meat-based canned food.

Good luck,

Phil

PawsForThought
November 30th 05, 01:56 PM
Stacey wrote:
> Unbelievable. Cats need water in their diet. Dry food might be convenient, but
> experience of thousands of cats or not, it is not the optimum diet. Dry food
> provides no liquid and a FLUTD cat especially needs fluids to prevent the
> formation of crystals. IMHO your vet is stubborn and hasn't done a lot of
> research into cat nutrition. Now I'm not advocating a raw diet, and have seen
> some say that is the only way to feed a cat, but Ieven I know a cat needs
> moisture in the food. Drinking water from a bowl is not enough. Even if it is
> chicken or turkey (no salt!) babyfood added to the food or some water added to
> the food for now. Sorry to say I think you need a new vet who will discuss
> your cat's diet with you, not at you. I know it's not easy, but i don't like
> vets with a know-it-all, do not question attitude. I've changed a vet before
> because of that.
>
> Stacey

I agree with you completely, Stacey. Pushing a cereal type of dry food
diet for an obligate carnivore just doesn't make sense. I too have had
to find a different vet when I've come up against one who had very
little knowledge into feline nutrition, and who was not willing to
explain things to me in detail. I love our present vet because he
works with us on our cats' health. He especially works on preventative
health, and not just treating symptoms. Unfortunately, in my
experience, I have found many vets who really aren't knowledgeable in
feline nutrition, but rather learn from pet food reps who are only
trying to sell their products. Some of these pet food companies give
large grants to veterinarian schools, and some vets feel obligated to
carry that food in their practice. I respect a vet who does his own
research and who is constantly educating themselves.

yngver
December 1st 05, 08:12 PM
wrote:
> Telephone: 1-800-592-6687 Royal Canin. Persist if at first they don't
> answer. They will boost your call to even possibly a vet. They are
> quite good in this respect. In fact, on their web site they say to call
> the above number because they don't list details on prescription foods.
>
>
> Ask what is the pH of the involved food.
> If the pH is quite acidic, around 6.0, then it's unlikely to be fed
> long-term, going by Science Diet's specifications. Long-term would be
> unlikely to have this low a pH but double-check. They might have 2
> different foods, one long and one short-term like Science Diet has. SD
> probably has more than 2.
>
> Ask if canned would be best with a little SD Oral Care or a Royal Canin
> food, if they have one, just to help clean the teeth. You can clean
> your cat's teeth with your thumb or washcloth or cat tooth brush. Not
> easy but if you go slow, can usually get a few teeth each time.
>
> One version of Hills is not intended for long term, the other can be
> used long term.
> So it's best to check this out with them. I would be reluctant to use a
> low pH food on a cat that is a senior like yours, a beginning senior
> unless I had lots of assurance. For the long term, I would prefer foods
> that had a good pH range, moderate nutrients, and wet foods moistly,
> low phosphorus. The premium brands like SD and probably Royal Canin,
> from what I have seen so far, seem to know about this.
>
> SD for 7+ senior foods, your cat's age range, likes the pH of all SD's
> senior foods, prescription or normal, to be around a pH of 6.6 to 6.8.
> This helps prevent calcium oxalate stones which are worse than
> crystals. You don't want to trade one problem for another. So this is a
> critical point to discuss with them.
>
> I'm not a vet. I just talk the jargon now thanks to a lot of vets who
> did not give out the info because it's just too ineffective to take an
> hour or so to go into the details.
>
> The key may be moisture and food that is moderate in the right
> nutrients. I am not familiar with Royal Canin's prescription foods but
> I have dealt with them once in regards to diet or weight loss foods and
> they were awfully nice. Your question is a good one but I cannot answer
> it fully. Others here may have better answers.

Thanks for the detailed information. Most of the nutritional anaysis
for Royal Canin Urinary S/O is shown here:
http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/SO30.pdf

I don't see pH specified (instead they talk about Urinary Relative
SuperSaturation values.) However, since Urinary S/O is stated to
prevent both struvite and calcium ocalate, it sounds as though they
have formulated this food to be a happy medium. What I don't like, now
that I see it, and as another post mentioned, is that they appear to
have high amounts of sodium chloride to increase urination. That part
does concern me. I'm going to have to discuss this further with my vet.
In a female cat, I wonder if all that sodium chloride is worse than the
occasional struvite crystal, since they are not so serious in females.

BTW, the food she had been eating when she developed the crystals is
Science Diet Oral Care, which she loves. I don't know whether that
could have contributed to the struvite, but it did make her coat feel
greasy.
-Yngver

December 2nd 05, 12:22 AM
yngver wrote:
> wrote:
> > SD for 7+ senior foods, your cat's age range, likes the pH of all SD's
> > senior foods, prescription or normal, to be around a pH of 6.6 to 6.8.

It's so hard as an amateur with this stuff to get it right. The first
time I quoted the pH I was right. And then I "corrected" myself. It's a
pH of 6.4 to 6.6 for the Senior 7+ foods of Science Diet. All their
foods for older cats have this value, a little less acidic than 6.2 to
6.4, because older cats tend to calcium oxalate stones, I've read. See
HillsPet.com for all Science Diet foods, great labeling, just super
great.

> Thanks for the detailed information. Most of the nutritional anaysis
> for Royal Canin Urinary S/O is shown here:
> http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/SO30.pdf

> I don't see pH specified (instead they talk about Urinary Relative
> SuperSaturation values.) However, since Urinary S/O is stated to
> prevent both struvite and calcium ocalate, it sounds as though they
> have formulated this food to be a happy medium. What I don't like, now
> that I see it, and as another post mentioned, is that they appear to
> have high amounts of sodium chloride to increase urination. That part
> does concern me. I'm going to have to discuss this further with my vet.
> In a female cat, I wonder if all that sodium chloride is worse than the
> occasional struvite crystal, since they are not so serious in females.

What a lot of double-talk to keep the business, yes? I like .edu sites
because they throw the bull less. You read that PDF file and you can't
get a real single fact out of it. Businesses when they do this to keep
their secrets secret make me nuts when it comes to health. I would
probably get on the line to Royal Canin and nudge them until I get a
tech or a vet on the phone to clear this up. RSS sounds as though they
solved the problem but I have not read that elsewhere. If it's
clinical, then I would probably search the vet med data bases for their
research. They say it's clinically shown, so probably in the original
research this RSS will be spelled out. I often see this with patents.
All this nonsense in the ads. But if you get the actual patent, it's
all spelled out in great detail. That may not be relevant here unless
they patented RSS.

I don't know too much about sodium. I was first concerned about
magnesium and then I learned my water is softened - sometimes I am a
real idiot! Now I begin to calculate how much sodium is added to the
water from a water softener using NaCl. It depends, especially if an
old versus modern water softener, but it's an additional 8 mg added per
grain of hardness before softening. Some estimates are high, like: Arch
Intern Med. 1997 Jan 27;157(2):218-22) "the sodium concentration of
softened well water averaged 278 mg/L but the variation was very large.
Levels from 46 to 1219 mg/L were observed. 17% of households had sodium
levels above 400 mg/L." So if you drink 8 glasses a day, hmm, and have
an old unit, could get an extra 800 mg, maybe a whole gram [Campbell's
soup has 2+ grams per small can], of sodium per day. If you try to keep
under 2-3 grams of sodium, that's a problem. Cats don't drink that
much, but? Sodium can only be reduced though with distillation. Reverse
osmosis really can't handle it unless it's an industrial application
with lots of extra treatments. I don't know about sodium and cats
versus crystals, as I rambled before. Maybe Phil P. will weigh in here
to clear this up.

>
> BTW, the food she had been eating when she developed the crystals is
> Science Diet Oral Care, which she loves. I don't know whether that
> could have contributed to the struvite, but it did make her coat feel
> greasy.
> -Yngver

I'm glad you pointed this out. I had serious qualms about Oral Care so
I dole it out to my cat about 4 individual pieces at a time. It's fat
content as dry matter basis is 22%. That seemed too high for my cat
because I want her to slim down a bit. I am not surprised that it made
her coat feel greasy as a main food. Why did SD do this? Probably the
high fat keeps the large pieces of kibble together to form an abrasion
against the teeth. My wild guess.

Now I think the kcals of Oral Care is way too high, right? But it's the
same kcals as what, this Purina Weight Management stuff I got because
of a free coupon. Go figure!
I know, feed her less. But I would like the food to be lower in the
first place, around 3 kcals per gram instead of 3.8+ kilocalories per
gram. More food makes the cat think she's eating more. I hate to put
out a seemingly thimble bit of food but it's the kilocalories that I
have to start going by strictly.

I'm glad you appreciated my detailed reply.

December 2nd 05, 12:31 AM
---MIKE--- wrote:

> All of this discussion avoids answering the above comments. Feed a good
> quality canned food once the crystals have gone. Good quality:
> Wellness, Innova, Science Diet, Iams, SOME Friskies varieties, and there
> are others. When I say Science Diet, I refer to the varieties sold over
> the counter NOT those sold by vets. I only use the dry food for treats.

I like your parsimony here. But I did post that reference, actually the
whole abstract, to a clinical article from Europe in which there was 0%
crystals in either fresh samples or stored samples of urine. Maybe I
did not spell out clearly enough the lesson from that research article
but it stated that 100% of cats fed a 100% wet diet had 0% crystals in
either fresh urine samples or stored urine samples. That's quite
impressive. Especially since stored sample will generate crystals, but
not in these cats fed all wet food diet. That seems to imply there were
really no pre-crystals, to coin a new concept. It's good you stress the
wet food. Now if I can find the article, maybe I can see exactly what
types of foods were used for dry and wet. That would be helpful. Or
contact the researchers. Somewhere I had them send me the original full
article but trying to find it now?

5cats
December 2nd 05, 01:46 AM
wrote:
>

> I'm glad you pointed this out. I had serious qualms about Oral Care so
> I dole it out to my cat about 4 individual pieces at a time. It's fat
> content as dry matter basis is 22%. That seemed too high for my cat
> because I want her to slim down a bit. I am not surprised that it made
> her coat feel greasy as a main food. Why did SD do this? Probably the
> high fat keeps the large pieces of kibble together to form an abrasion
> against the teeth. My wild guess.
>

Speaking of weightloss, I ran into this article recently, again, something
more supporting a the idea of a high protein diet for weight loss.
http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

yngver
December 5th 05, 05:27 PM
wrote:
> yngver wrote:
> > wrote:
> > > SD for 7+ senior foods, your cat's age range, likes the pH of all SD's
> > > senior foods, prescription or normal, to be around a pH of 6.6 to 6.8.
>
> It's so hard as an amateur with this stuff to get it right. The first
> time I quoted the pH I was right. And then I "corrected" myself. It's a
> pH of 6.4 to 6.6 for the Senior 7+ foods of Science Diet. All their
> foods for older cats have this value, a little less acidic than 6.2 to
> 6.4, because older cats tend to calcium oxalate stones, I've read. See
> HillsPet.com for all Science Diet foods, great labeling, just super
> great.
>
> > Thanks for the detailed information. Most of the nutritional anaysis
> > for Royal Canin Urinary S/O is shown here:
> > http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/SO30.pdf
>
> > I don't see pH specified (instead they talk about Urinary Relative
> > SuperSaturation values.) However, since Urinary S/O is stated to
> > prevent both struvite and calcium ocalate, it sounds as though they
> > have formulated this food to be a happy medium. What I don't like, now
> > that I see it, and as another post mentioned, is that they appear to
> > have high amounts of sodium chloride to increase urination. That part
> > does concern me. I'm going to have to discuss this further with my vet.
> > In a female cat, I wonder if all that sodium chloride is worse than the
> > occasional struvite crystal, since they are not so serious in females.
>
> What a lot of double-talk to keep the business, yes? I like .edu sites
> because they throw the bull less. You read that PDF file and you can't
> get a real single fact out of it. Businesses when they do this to keep
> their secrets secret make me nuts when it comes to health. I would
> probably get on the line to Royal Canin and nudge them until I get a
> tech or a vet on the phone to clear this up. RSS sounds as though they
> solved the problem but I have not read that elsewhere. If it's
> clinical, then I would probably search the vet med data bases for their
> research. They say it's clinically shown, so probably in the original
> research this RSS will be spelled out. I often see this with patents.
> All this nonsense in the ads. But if you get the actual patent, it's
> all spelled out in great detail. That may not be relevant here unless
> they patented RSS.

Actually I did find publications listed on the Royal Canin (these
veterinary diets were formally Waltham's) site. If I went through all
of the ones listed in supporting their nutritional analyis and claims
for Urinary SO, I'd probably find the answers to all my questions, but
so far I've just skimmed the titles and read some of the abstracts. For
example, this is one of the studies cited in regards to high sodium
diets:

*****Dietary sodium chloride, a useful tool in the management of canine
and feline lower urinary tract diseasesVincent C. Biourge DVM, PhD, Dip
ACVN, ECVCN
Royal Canin Research Center, Aimargues, France

KEY POINTS

- The easiest way of reducing relative supersaturation (RSS) and thus
the risks of crystal formation is to increase urine volume.
- Small breed dogs and cats produce less urine, urinate less frequently
and have more concentrated urine than larger breeds.
- Increased dietary sodium chloride (NaCl) increases water intake as
well as urine production and decreases urine supersaturation in dogs
and in cats.
- A single acidifying diet moderately supplemented with NaCl can be
formulated for the prevention of both struvite and calcium oxalate
uroliths as well as for the dissolution of struvite stones.
- Levels of dietary sodium that will promote diuresis will not increase
blood pressure in healthy dogs and cats.
- Salt-enriched diets appear very well tolerated by both dogs and cats
except in patients suffering from renal disease. As the prevalence of
FLUTD is much higher in cats less than 10 years of age, a time when the
prevalence of renal disease is very low, Na supplementation remains a
very useful tool in the prevention and treatment of uroliths.

Also, here is the research supporting their argument that what they
call RSS is a better predictor of the risk of struvite and oxalate
crystals than urinary pH. Of course, these studies are done by their
own researchers.
http://publications.royalcanin.com/renvoie.asp?type=1&cid=121432&id=102491&com=3&animal=0&lang=2&session=961872
>
> I don't know too much about sodium. I was first concerned about
> magnesium and then I learned my water is softened - sometimes I am a
> real idiot! Now I begin to calculate hw much sodium is added to the
> water from a water softener using NaCl. It depends, especially if an
> old versus modern water softener, but it's an additional 8 mg added per
> grain of hardness before softening. Some estimates are high, like: Arch
> Intern Med. 1997 Jan 27;157(2):218-22) "the sodium concentration of
> softened well water averaged 278 mg/L but the variation was very large.
> Levels from 46 to 1219 mg/L were observed. 17% of households had sodium
> levels above 400 mg/L." So if you drink 8 glasses a day, hmm, and have
> an old unit, could get an extra 800 mg, maybe a whole gram [Campbell's
> soup has 2+ grams per small can], of sodium per day. If you try to keep
> under 2-3 grams of sodium, that's a problem. Cats don't drink that
> much, but? Sodium can only be reduced though with distillation. Reverse
> osmosis really can't handle it unless it's an industrial application
> with lots of extra treatments. I don't know about sodium and cats
> versus crystals, as I rambled before. Maybe Phil P. will weigh in here
> to clear this up.

Maybe Phil will let us know what he thinks about high sodium diets for
cats. Royal Canin seems to be saying it is only risky with cats already
in renal failure and that those cats are mostly over the age of 10
years.
>
> >
> > BTW, the food she had been eating when she developed the crystals is
> > Science Diet Oral Care, which she loves. I don't know whether that
> > could have contributed to the struvite, but it did make her coat feel
> > greasy.
> > -Yngver
>
> I'm glad you pointed this out. I had serious qualms about Oral Care so
> I dole it out to my cat about 4 individual pieces at a time. It's fat
> content as dry matter basis is 22%. That seemed too high for my cat
> because I want her to slim down a bit. I am not surprised that it made
> her coat feel greasy as a main food. Why did SD do this? Probably the
> high fat keeps the large pieces of kibble together to form an abrasion
> against the teeth. My wild guess.
>
> Now I think the kcals of Oral Care is way too high, right? But it's the
> same kcals as what, this Purina Weight Management stuff I got because
> of a free coupon. Go figure!
> I know, feed her less. But I would like the food to be lower in the
> first place, around 3 kcals per gram instead of 3.8+ kilocalories per
> gram. More food makes the cat think she's eating more. I hate to put
> out a seemingly thimble bit of food but it's the kilocalories that I
> have to start going by strictly.
>
> I'm glad you appreciated my detailed reply.

Yes, I did appreciate it. The vets at our cat clinic offered both the
Royal Canin prescription struvite diet and the Hill's, but they said
they favored the Royal Canin. They said that cats seem to do better on
it long term. As for SD Oral Care, actually our cat lost weight on it
and that's one reason we fed it for a couple years (our cats resist a
totally canned food diet so they also get some dry every day). She went
from 14 lbs. to 12 lbs (a good weight for her) and she has remained
there. I think the Oral Care contains a lot of "roughage" supposedly to
clean the teeth but it might also make the cat feel fuller with less.
But again, her fur always felt rough and greasy with that food and once
we stopped feeding it and she was on the Urinary SO, her fur became
soft and lustrous again.

Her latest urinalysis (Friday) showed no crystals, which means it has
been close to a year she has been struvite free. I am not sure the Oral
Care had anything to do with struvites, but I do think it most likely
that her crystals were caused by stress (we added another cat to the
household) rather than food. At the moment we are alternating SD canned
feline maintenance with the canned Royal Canin Urinary SO for all three
cats (the vet said it was okay for the other cats to eat the SO but now
I'm reluctant to give it to them). Two of our cats are 8 years old and
the other is 4, so we need to find something they can all eat.

The vet said we could take our cat off the SO and see how she does but
they want her to come in for urinalysis every three months (I hope
that's not forever!) As I said, she loves the SD Oral Care but now I
don't know whether to give it even just as a treat. It does seem to
help keep their teeth clean.

Thanks for all the advice. Am still curious about whether higher levels
of sodum in a cat's diet can be harmful.
-Yngver

December 5th 05, 10:41 PM
yngver wrote:
> > > Thanks for the detailed information. Most of the nutritional anaysis
> > > for Royal Canin Urinary S/O is shown here:
> > > http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/pdf/SO30.pdf
> >
> > > I don't see pH specified (instead they talk about Urinary Relative
> > > SuperSaturation values.) However, since Urinary S/O is stated to
> > > prevent both struvite and calcium ocalate, it sounds as though they
> > > have formulated this food to be a happy medium. What I don't like, now
> > > that I see it, and as another post mentioned, is that they appear to
> > > have high amounts of sodium chloride to increase urination. That part
> > > does concern me. I'm going to have to discuss this further with my vet.
> > > In a female cat, I wonder if all that sodium chloride is worse than the
> > > occasional struvite crystal, since they are not so serious in females.
> >
> > What a lot of double-talk to keep the business, yes? I like .edu sites
> > because they throw the bull less. You read that PDF file and you can't
> > get a real single fact out of it. Businesses when they do this to keep
> > their secrets secret make me nuts when it comes to health. I would
> > probably get on the line to Royal Canin and nudge them until I get a
> > tech or a vet on the phone to clear this up. RSS sounds as though they
> > solved the problem but I have not read that elsewhere. If it's
> > clinical, then I would probably search the vet med data bases for their
> > research. They say it's clinically shown, so probably in the original
> > research this RSS will be spelled out. I often see this with patents.
> > All this nonsense in the ads. But if you get the actual patent, it's
> > all spelled out in great detail. That may not be relevant here unless
> > they patented RSS.
>
> Actually I did find publications listed on the Royal Canin (these
> veterinary diets were formally Waltham's) site. If I went through all
> of the ones listed in supporting their nutritional analyis and claims
> for Urinary SO, I'd probably find the answers to all my questions, but
> so far I've just skimmed the titles and read some of the abstracts. For
> example, this is one of the studies cited in regards to high sodium
> diets:
>
> *****Dietary sodium chloride, a useful tool in the management of canine
> and feline lower urinary tract diseasesVincent C. Biourge DVM, PhD, Dip
> ACVN, ECVCN
> Royal Canin Research Center, Aimargues, France
>
> KEY POINTS
>
> - The easiest way of reducing relative supersaturation (RSS) and thus
> the risks of crystal formation is to increase urine volume.
> - Small breed dogs and cats produce less urine, urinate less frequently
> and have more concentrated urine than larger breeds.
> - Increased dietary sodium chloride (NaCl) increases water intake as
> well as urine production and decreases urine supersaturation in dogs
> and in cats.
> - A single acidifying diet moderately supplemented with NaCl can be
> formulated for the prevention of both struvite and calcium oxalate
> uroliths as well as for the dissolution of struvite stones.
> - Levels of dietary sodium that will promote diuresis will not increase
> blood pressure in healthy dogs and cats.
> - Salt-enriched diets appear very well tolerated by both dogs and cats
> except in patients suffering from renal disease. As the prevalence of
> FLUTD is much higher in cats less than 10 years of age, a time when the
> prevalence of renal disease is very low, Na supplementation remains a
> very useful tool in the prevention and treatment of uroliths.
>
> Also, here is the research supporting their argument that what they
> call RSS is a better predictor of the risk of struvite and oxalate
> crystals than urinary pH. Of course, these studies are done by their
> own researchers.

http://publications.royalcanin.com/renvoie.asp?type=1&cid=121432&id=102491&com=3&animal=0&lang=2&session=961872

I'm glad you pointed this out but it's still a bit of double-talk. They
are not telling me anything really substantial. Maybe I'm super stupid
but there is not a single real fact to tell me how they compute the
RSS. Can someone read that PDF and tell me where I am erring? It reads
to me like marketing and not anything with science. A bunch of fluffy
PowerPoint slides in a PDF file.

If it had information, real information, then I would see something
like:
With a blood level of phosphorus and a blood level of magnesium, and a
pH of this, and the specific gravity of that and so on, then I can
understand their algorithm. But to pretend that what they say is
science is really pseudo-science. But they do have references which
might have details. Can't tell from this PDF though. Need to
investigate the references which might have more real facts.

That PDF you posted states:

"This methodology involves the analysis of 12 constituents of a
collected urine sample, as well as the determination of urine pH. These
data are then analyzed using a computer program which calculates the
concentrations of the large number of interactive complexes between all
ions present in this urine. Finally, the program calculates the
activity product of the urine sample for a given urolith and divides
this number by the known constant thermodynamic solubility product for
that urolith to determine RSS."

But I gather they don't want to spell out what are the 12 constituents
then + the pH of the urine? I guess they don't want to spill the beans
but they should spell out that they are NOT spelling out what RSS
means.

"Managing struvite and calcium oxalate risk - what does Relative Super
Saturation (RSS) evaluation mean in practical terms?"

They do say what it means in practical terms. They do the very opposite
but since I have done research I can parcel it out but that's an
expertise the lay person may not have patience for.

Thanks for pulling that article but it's useless for PRACTICAL
purposes. I don't like black boxes where people don't tell me things.
Especially what it comes to her royal highness.

Okay, who is going to compute the relative supersaturation?

1. Smith, B. H. E., Stevenson, A. E., Markwell, P. J., Urinary relative
supersaturations of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced
by diet. Journal of Nutrition 1998; 128: 2763S-2764S.

This first reference in your PDF I could obtain easier since it's
probably a known public journal. Maybe in here is the magic answer?

Found it by looking up the first reference of the PDF you mention
above:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2763S

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/128/12/2763S (this has all,
tables too)

In this article they state:

"Urine concentrations of sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium,
chloride, sulfate, phosphate, oxalate, citrate, pyrophosphate, ammonium
and uric acid were analyzed by HPLC. A computer program, Equil 2
(Werness et al. 1985), was used to calculate urinary RSS for struvite
and calcium oxalate from the concentrations of these analytes. This
resulted in one struvite and one calcium oxalate RSS value for each cat
during each trial. RSS is calculated from the activity product of the
sample divided by the solubility product for the crystal in question;
thus, values of <1.0 correspond with undersaturation.

Initially, an ANOVA was used to identify whether there were significant
differences between mean trial urine pH and RSS values. Once
significant differences within the data set were elucidated, it was
further analyzed by a Newman-Keuls multiple range test . The
relationship between mean urine pH and struvite and calcium oxalate RSS
values was investigated using a simple regression procedure
(Statgraphics plus version 2.1, Manugistics, Cambridge, MA.)."

Okay, so fine, that's in the public domain. I need a computer program,
Equil 2 or something. And a little stat work and there you go :) Oh,
and 12 analyses of ions in the urine. And the pH. Hmmm. Probably a set
of simultaneous equations to compute this or what? Anybody know? Sounds
like a little econometrics applied to felines. I'm guessing but they
are trying to get a handle on 13 variables simultaneously and that
means simultaneous equations?

I'm probably being unreasonable. They do good work. At least I can see
where they are coming from. That's great. But it's going to take quite
a bit of digging to get the actual information, the algorithm, that
they are using. If I know that, I could computer the RSS for my
particular cat. Is that not the name of this little game?

I want to know my cat's RSS. And then see how she does on various
foods. Not take their word that their particular food achieves the best
RSS. That might be. But would I not want to make sure for my particular
feline, who wants FOOD right now. See you later ;)

Thanks for the PDF's. That was quite helpful. It's a start, a good
start.

December 5th 05, 10:58 PM
wrote:

> 1. Smith, B. H. E., Stevenson, A. E., Markwell, P. J., Urinary relative
> supersaturations of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced
> by diet. Journal of Nutrition 1998; 128: 2763S-2764S.
>
> This first reference in your PDF I could obtain easier since it's
> probably a known public journal. Maybe in here is the magic answer?
>
> Found it by looking up the first reference of the PDF you mention
> above:
>
> http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2763S
>
> http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/128/12/2763S (this has all,
> tables too)
>
> In this article they state:
>
> "Urine concentrations of sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium,
> chloride, sulfate, phosphate, oxalate, citrate, pyrophosphate, ammonium
> and uric acid were analyzed by HPLC. A computer program, Equil 2
> (Werness et al. 1985), was used to calculate urinary RSS for struvite
> and calcium oxalate from the concentrations of these analytes. This
> resulted in one struvite and one calcium oxalate RSS value for each cat
> during each trial. RSS is calculated from the activity product of the
> sample divided by the solubility product for the crystal in question;
> thus, values of <1.0 correspond with undersaturation.
>
> Initially, an ANOVA was used to identify whether there were significant
> differences between mean trial urine pH and RSS values. Once
> significant differences within the data set were elucidated, it was
> further analyzed by a Newman-Keuls multiple range test . The
> relationship between mean urine pH and struvite and calcium oxalate RSS
> values was investigated using a simple regression procedure
> (Statgraphics plus version 2.1, Manugistics, Cambridge, MA.)."
>
> Okay, so fine, that's in the public domain. I need a computer program,
> Equil 2 or something. And a little stat work and there you go :) Oh,
> and 12 analyses of ions in the urine. And the pH. Hmmm. Probably a set
> of simultaneous equations to compute this or what? Anybody know? Sounds
> like a little econometrics applied to felines. I'm guessing but they
> are trying to get a handle on 13 variables simultaneously and that
> means simultaneous equations?

And from one of their references above I found directly this
interesting article which I'll just post the abstract:

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1995 Dec 1;207(11):1429-34. Related Articles,
Links

Evaluation of factors associated with development of calcium
oxalate urolithiasis in cats.

Kirk CA, Ling GV, Franti CE, Scarlett JM.

Department of Molecular Biosciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of California, Davis 95616, USA.

OBJECTIVE--To evaluate dietary and environmental factors as
potential risk factors for calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats.
DESIGN--Case-control study. ANIMALS--84 cats with uroliths composed of
at least 90% calcium oxalate and 258 age- and gender-matched control
cats. PROCEDURE--Owners of cats with calcium oxalate urolithiasis and
control cats were surveyed between November 1990 and August 1992.
Owners completed a standard questionnaire administered during a single
telephone interview. Data collected included information regarding
signalment, environment, urination and defecation, diet, and medical
history. RESULTS--Calcium oxalate uroliths tended to develop in middle-
to older-aged, domestic shorthair cats of typical weight. A gender
predilection was not detected. Factors associated with an increase in
the risk of calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats were feeding
urine-acidifying diets, feeding a single brand of cat food without
providing additional foods or table scraps, maintaining cats in an
indoor-only environment, and being of the Persian breed. CLINICAL
IMPLICATIONS--Control of diet and environment may help prevent calcium
oxalate urolithiasis.

Read that last sentence in the results:

"Factors associated with an increase in the risk of calcium oxalate
urolithiasis in cats were feeding urine-acidifying diets, feeding a
single brand of cat food without providing additional foods or table
scraps, maintaining cats in an indoor-only environment, and being of
the Persian breed."

Makes you think. That's what I suspected. And was discussed here.
Acidifying diets have their own risks and stones are much worse.
Interesting conclusion.

Phil P.
December 6th 05, 06:00 AM
"yngver" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe Phil will let us know what he thinks about high sodium diets for
> cats. Royal Canin seems to be saying it is only risky with cats already
> in renal failure and that those cats are mostly over the age of 10
> years.


I was never impressed with S/O-- I think the RSS angle is more of a
marketing gimmick than anything else. RSS- which is basically technobabble
because its highly dependant on urine volume. Urine volume can be increased
and RSS subsequently decreased for *any* crystal by simply feeding a canned
diet. You can increase water intake and urine volume by 50-100% by simply
feeding a canned diet. The "activity product ratio" (APR) is a much better
and more accurate method of determining the risk of crystals forming because
it relies on the relative activity of the minerals and is less influenced by
urine volume. Even the APR is irrelevant if the cat eats the right diet.

Also, magnesium *inhibits* the formation of CaOx. That's one of the reasons
why the incidence of CaOx increased >10x since the advent of so-call
"urinary tract health" diets to inhibit struvite- which are restricted in
magnesium. However, struvite is function of urine pH *not* magnesium. A
pound of magnesium won't form struvite in urine at pH 6.1-6.2. PH
determines *if* struvite will form- the amount of magnesium in the urine
determines how much struvite will form. Magnesium becomes important *only*
when urine pH rises above 6.3-6.4.

Am still curious about whether higher levels
> of sodum in a cat's diet can be harmful.

Increased sodium intake might actually increase the risk factor for CaOx
because it might precipitate renal calcium excretion in the urine. OTOH,
the increase in water intake and excretion and urine volume that also occurs
with increased sodium intake offsets this risk. There's also a concern
about sodium in the pathogenesis of hypertension. So basically, the
increased sodium and RSS angle are simply gimmicks to get the cat to drink
more water- which can be accomplished with almost any commercial diet
without any risks- and for less money.

The two most important factors in any crystal formation are urine volume and
urine stasis. Canned food increases water intake by 150%-200%- which
increases urine volume which in turn dilutes the concentration of
crystalline substances in the urine. The higher water intake and urine
volume also results in more frequent urination and the rapid elimination of
cellular debris and crystalline particles before they can aggregate or
accrete into larger and larger particles that eventually become crystals or
uroliths or plugs.

I don't mean to sound sharp, but these urinary tract health diets **** me
off. The pet food industry *created* the problem. Now, they're selling us
a "cure" at twice the price for a problem they've created- and created
another, *more serious* problem in the process. Cats evolved and survived
for millions of years without the need for "urinary tract health" diets
until a bunch of morons conjured up the notion to convert a carnivore into a
omnivore so they can make more money.

Phil

PawsForThought
December 6th 05, 01:50 PM
Phil P. wrote:
I don't mean to sound sharp, but these urinary tract health diets ****
me
> off. The pet food industry *created* the problem. Now, they're selling us
> a "cure" at twice the price for a problem they've created- and created
> another, *more serious* problem in the process. Cats evolved and survived
> for millions of years without the need for "urinary tract health" diets
> until a bunch of morons conjured up the notion to convert a carnivore into a
> omnivore so they can make more money.

Well put, Phil, and didn't sound sharp to me at all, just truthful.
Sad that the cats have to pay the price for greedy companies. As you
know, I feed a homemade raw diet to my cats, and have never experienced
any urinary tract problems. Even feeding a canned diet, as you say,
will be much healthier for the cat. Dry foods were invented for
convenience for the human, and not for the benefit of the cat.

yngver
December 6th 05, 04:22 PM
wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > 1. Smith, B. H. E., Stevenson, A. E., Markwell, P. J., Urinary relative
> > supersaturations of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced
> > by diet. Journal of Nutrition 1998; 128: 2763S-2764S.
> >
> > This first reference in your PDF I could obtain easier since it's
> > probably a known public journal. Maybe in here is the magic answer?
> >
> > Found it by looking up the first reference of the PDF you mention
> > above:
> >
> > http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2763S
> >
> > http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/128/12/2763S (this has all,
> > tables too)
> >
> > In this article they state:
> >
> > "Urine concentrations of sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium,
> > chloride, sulfate, phosphate, oxalate, citrate, pyrophosphate, ammonium
> > and uric acid were analyzed by HPLC. A computer program, Equil 2
> > (Werness et al. 1985), was used to calculate urinary RSS for struvite
> > and calcium oxalate from the concentrations of these analytes. This
> > resulted in one struvite and one calcium oxalate RSS value for each cat
> > during each trial. RSS is calculated from the activity product of the
> > sample divided by the solubility product for the crystal in question;
> > thus, values of <1.0 correspond with undersaturation.
> >
> > Initially, an ANOVA was used to identify whether there were significant
> > differences between mean trial urine pH and RSS values. Once
> > significant differences within the data set were elucidated, it was
> > further analyzed by a Newman-Keuls multiple range test . The
> > relationship between mean urine pH and struvite and calcium oxalate RSS
> > values was investigated using a simple regression procedure
> > (Statgraphics plus version 2.1, Manugistics, Cambridge, MA.)."
> >
> > Okay, so fine, that's in the public domain. I need a computer program,
> > Equil 2 or something. And a little stat work and there you go :) Oh,
> > and 12 analyses of ions in the urine. And the pH. Hmmm. Probably a set
> > of simultaneous equations to compute this or what? Anybody know? Sounds
> > like a little econometrics applied to felines. I'm guessing but they
> > are trying to get a handle on 13 variables simultaneously and that
> > means simultaneous equations?
>
> And from one of their references above I found directly this
> interesting article which I'll just post the abstract:
>
> J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1995 Dec 1;207(11):1429-34. Related Articles,
> Links
>
> Evaluation of factors associated with development of calcium
> oxalate urolithiasis in cats.
>
> Kirk CA, Ling GV, Franti CE, Scarlett JM.
>
> Department of Molecular Biosciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
> University of California, Davis 95616, USA.
>
> OBJECTIVE--To evaluate dietary and environmental factors as
> potential risk factors for calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats.
> DESIGN--Case-control study. ANIMALS--84 cats with uroliths composed of
> at least 90% calcium oxalate and 258 age- and gender-matched control
> cats. PROCEDURE--Owners of cats with calcium oxalate urolithiasis and
> control cats were surveyed between November 1990 and August 1992.
> Owners completed a standard questionnaire administered during a single
> telephone interview. Data collected included information regarding
> signalment, environment, urination and defecation, diet, and medical
> history. RESULTS--Calcium oxalate uroliths tended to develop in middle-
> to older-aged, domestic shorthair cats of typical weight. A gender
> predilection was not detected. Factors associated with an increase in
> the risk of calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats were feeding
> urine-acidifying diets, feeding a single brand of cat food without
> providing additional foods or table scraps, maintaining cats in an
> indoor-only environment, and being of the Persian breed. CLINICAL
> IMPLICATIONS--Control of diet and environment may help prevent calcium
> oxalate urolithiasis.
>
> Read that last sentence in the results:
>
> "Factors associated with an increase in the risk of calcium oxalate
> urolithiasis in cats were feeding urine-acidifying diets, feeding a
> single brand of cat food without providing additional foods or table
> scraps, maintaining cats in an indoor-only environment, and being of
> the Persian breed."
>
> Makes you think. That's what I suspected. And was discussed here.
> Acidifying diets have their own risks and stones are much worse.
> Interesting conclusion.

Yes, that's pretty interesting. Aren't all commercial cat foods now
somewhat acidic, to prevent struvites? I realize the prescription diets
are moreso. The only time we have ever fed a cat a single food was
while the one cat was on the Urinary SO only--when the repeat test
showed no struvites we went back to feeding a variety of foods. I've
always thought it best to feed a variety of foods and that reinforces
my opinion. As to indoor only, I suppose that increases stress levels
and the breed can't be helped--fortunately none of our cats are
Persians. I wonder which cat foods are less acidic?
-Yngver

yngver
December 6th 05, 04:35 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "yngver" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Maybe Phil will let us know what he thinks about high sodium diets for
> > cats. Royal Canin seems to be saying it is only risky with cats already
> > in renal failure and that those cats are mostly over the age of 10
> > years.
>
>
> I was never impressed with S/O-- I think the RSS angle is more of a
> marketing gimmick than anything else. RSS- which is basically technobabble
> because its highly dependant on urine volume. Urine volume can be increased
> and RSS subsequently decreased for *any* crystal by simply feeding a canned
> diet. You can increase water intake and urine volume by 50-100% by simply
> feeding a canned diet. The "activity product ratio" (APR) is a much better
> and more accurate method of determining the risk of crystals forming because
> it relies on the relative activity of the minerals and is less influenced by
> urine volume. Even the APR is irrelevant if the cat eats the right diet.
>
> Also, magnesium *inhibits* the formation of CaOx. That's one of the reasons
> why the incidence of CaOx increased >10x since the advent of so-call
> "urinary tract health" diets to inhibit struvite- which are restricted in
> magnesium. However, struvite is function of urine pH *not* magnesium. A
> pound of magnesium won't form struvite in urine at pH 6.1-6.2. PH
> determines *if* struvite will form- the amount of magnesium in the urine
> determines how much struvite will form. Magnesium becomes important *only*
> when urine pH rises above 6.3-6.4.
>
> Am still curious about whether higher levels
> > of sodum in a cat's diet can be harmful.
>
> Increased sodium intake might actually increase the risk factor for CaOx
> because it might precipitate renal calcium excretion in the urine. OTOH,
> the increase in water intake and excretion and urine volume that also occurs
> with increased sodium intake offsets this risk. There's also a concern
> about sodium in the pathogenesis of hypertension. So basically, the
> increased sodium and RSS angle are simply gimmicks to get the cat to drink
> more water- which can be accomplished with almost any commercial diet
> without any risks- and for less money.
>
> The two most important factors in any crystal formation are urine volume and
> urine stasis. Canned food increases water intake by 150%-200%- which
> increases urine volume which in turn dilutes the concentration of
> crystalline substances in the urine. The higher water intake and urine
> volume also results in more frequent urination and the rapid elimination of
> cellular debris and crystalline particles before they can aggregate or
> accrete into larger and larger particles that eventually become crystals or
> uroliths or plugs.
>
> I don't mean to sound sharp, but these urinary tract health diets **** me
> off. The pet food industry *created* the problem. Now, they're selling us
> a "cure" at twice the price for a problem they've created- and created
> another, *more serious* problem in the process. Cats evolved and survived
> for millions of years without the need for "urinary tract health" diets
> until a bunch of morons conjured up the notion to convert a carnivore into a
> omnivore so they can make more money.
>
> Phil

Thanks for your analysis, Phil. Our cats have always eaten both canned
food and dry food, and it's funny just the one developed crystals. We
have over time increased the amount of canned food fed and reduced dry
food, but one of the cats would starve to death before she would give
up her dry food. Fortunately she is not the one that had the struvites.
The SO certainly did make our affected cat drink a lot more water, but
I don't think that was the real problem in the first place. I suspect
it was more of a territorial issue with the new cat over litter box
use. There are three litterboxes for three cats, but they all seem to
like to use the same one and I suspect this cat was "holding it"
whenever she saw the other cat around.

I also wonder if the SD Oral Care, because of having extra fiber, might
have decreased urine output? She is the only one of our cats that ate
that food. I should add that she also has asthma and gets a puff of
Flovent every day, but I've never heard an association with asthma or
Flovent and urinary tract disease.

You have helped us make the decision to stop feeding the Urinary SO
(although I guess we'll use up the few cans we have left) and see what
happens at her next urinalysis. All of the cats seem to like Science
Diet Feline Maintenance canned food--something must have changed
because a few years ago they wouldn't eat it--so I think we'll go with
that and a couple other foods. For dry food, they like Science Diet
Nature's Best and Royal Canin Indoor 27.

Again, thanks for the advice.
-Yngver

Steve Crane
December 6th 05, 06:50 PM
5cats wrote:
> wrote:
> >

> Speaking of weightloss, I ran into this article recently, again, something
> more supporting a the idea of a high protein diet for weight loss.
> http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

Did the study support high protein? Consider

1. Note the protein was grain derived not meat - the protein source was
corn gluten. Not germane to the issue of weight loss but interesting.
See Table 1 in the study.

2. Percent loss per week - normal protein 1.1, high protein diet 1.0 -
Table 3

3. Rate of Loss % per week - normal protein 0.78-1.9% high protein
0.74-1.3% - Table 3

4. NO statistical differrence in a) End % of fat, b) End grams of fat
%, c) End grams of lean body mass %,

Purina has been pushing the High Protein idea for 30 years. Ever since
they introduced the Purina Hi Pro dog food with the Golden retreiver
jumping over the log on the TV commercials in the 60's. It's good
study, it's well done, but the results are hardly is a huge win for the
high protein theory.

December 6th 05, 10:35 PM
yngver wrote:
> > And from one of their references above I found directly this
> > interesting article which I'll just post the abstract:
> >
> > J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1995 Dec 1;207(11):1429-34. Related Articles,
> > Links
> >
> > Evaluation of factors associated with development of calcium
> > oxalate urolithiasis in cats.
> >
> > Kirk CA, Ling GV, Franti CE, Scarlett JM.
> >
> > Department of Molecular Biosciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
> > University of California, Davis 95616, USA.
> >
> > OBJECTIVE--To evaluate dietary and environmental factors as
> > potential risk factors for calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats.
> > DESIGN--Case-control study. ANIMALS--84 cats with uroliths composed of
> > at least 90% calcium oxalate and 258 age- and gender-matched control
> > cats. PROCEDURE--Owners of cats with calcium oxalate urolithiasis and
> > control cats were surveyed between November 1990 and August 1992.
> > Owners completed a standard questionnaire administered during a single
> > telephone interview. Data collected included information regarding
> > signalment, environment, urination and defecation, diet, and medical
> > history. RESULTS--Calcium oxalate uroliths tended to develop in middle-
> > to older-aged, domestic shorthair cats of typical weight. A gender
> > predilection was not detected. Factors associated with an increase in
> > the risk of calcium oxalate urolithiasis in cats were feeding
> > urine-acidifying diets, feeding a single brand of cat food without
> > providing additional foods or table scraps, maintaining cats in an
> > indoor-only environment, and being of the Persian breed. CLINICAL
> > IMPLICATIONS--Control of diet and environment may help prevent calcium
> > oxalate urolithiasis.
> >
> > Read that last sentence in the results:
> >
> > "Factors associated with an increase in the risk of calcium oxalate
> > urolithiasis in cats were feeding urine-acidifying diets, feeding a
> > single brand of cat food without providing additional foods or table
> > scraps, maintaining cats in an indoor-only environment, and being of
> > the Persian breed."
> >
> > Makes you think. That's what I suspected. And was discussed here.
> > Acidifying diets have their own risks and stones are much worse.
> > Interesting conclusion.
>
> Yes, that's pretty interesting. Aren't all commercial cat foods now
> somewhat acidic, to prevent struvites? I realize the prescription diets
> are moreso. The only time we have ever fed a cat a single food was
> while the one cat was on the Urinary SO only--when the repeat test
> showed no struvites we went back to feeding a variety of foods. I've
> always thought it best to feed a variety of foods and that reinforces
> my opinion. As to indoor only, I suppose that increases stress levels
> and the breed can't be helped--fortunately none of our cats are
> Persians. I wonder which cat foods are less acidic?
> -Yngver

Depends, there is acidifying like SD x/d of pH 5.9 to 6.1and then not
so acidic.
Regular SD for cats < 7 years of age is a pH of 6.2 to 6.4
For older cats they raise the pH, still acidic, but not so much,
presumably to prevent the stones with a pH of 6.4 to 6.6. This is the
Senior 7+ series.

Science Diet gives out the pH levels on their web site. For the other
brands, it's more difficult. I just cannot get that information. I
guess I could buy a pH meter but I would like all information to be
publicly available. It's a genuine pain sometimes trying to get
information on the phone and sometimes it just does not exist. That
makes me wonder how good is their food preparation and if the info line
is just not up to par - which is what I hope for in this situation.

I wonder if the preparation is so uneven that many companies do not
like to post the details since it varies from batch to batch?

December 6th 05, 10:40 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
> I don't mean to sound sharp, but these urinary tract health diets ****
> me
> > off. The pet food industry *created* the problem. Now, they're selling us
> > a "cure" at twice the price for a problem they've created- and created
> > another, *more serious* problem in the process. Cats evolved and survived
> > for millions of years without the need for "urinary tract health" diets
> > until a bunch of morons conjured up the notion to convert a carnivore into a
> > omnivore so they can make more money.
>
> Well put, Phil, and didn't sound sharp to me at all, just truthful.
> Sad that the cats have to pay the price for greedy companies. As you
> know, I feed a homemade raw diet to my cats, and have never experienced
> any urinary tract problems. Even feeding a canned diet, as you say,
> will be much healthier for the cat. Dry foods were invented for
> convenience for the human, and not for the benefit of the cat.

What is your raw food diet? I bought very expensive organic raw food,
slightly blanched acutally, all the way from New Zealand to USA and she
refused to touch it. I've tried raw chicken, no dice. I guess she is
not hungry enough or the meats do not meet her threshhold of approval.

I downloaded some diets from Science Diet [kudos to SD] which they made
available about 15 years ago, which appear quite good if someone wants
to make equivalent diets for their cats who won't eat the canned foods.
I posted those diets here a few months ago, in case anyone is
interested. Some were very interested as I recall.

December 6th 05, 10:43 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
> I don't mean to sound sharp, but these urinary tract health diets ****
> me off. The pet food industry *created* the problem. Now, they're selling us
> > a "cure" at twice the price for a problem they've created- and created
> > another, *more serious* problem in the process. Cats evolved and survived
> > for millions of years without the need for "urinary tract health" diets
> > until a bunch of morons conjured up the notion to convert a carnivore into a
> > omnivore so they can make more money.

> Well put, Phil, and didn't sound sharp to me at all, just truthful.
> Sad that the cats have to pay the price for greedy companies. As you
> know, I feed a homemade raw diet to my cats, and have never experienced
> any urinary tract problems. Even feeding a canned diet, as you say,
> will be much healthier for the cat. Dry foods were invented for
> convenience for the human, and not for the benefit of the cat.

What is your raw food diet? I bought very expensive organic raw food,
slightly blanched acutally, all the way from New Zealand to USA and she
refused to touch it. I've tried raw chicken, no dice. I guess she is
not hungry enough or the meats do not meet her threshhold of approval.

I downloaded some diets from Science Diet [kudos to SD] which they made
available about 15 years ago, which appear quite good if someone wants
to make equivalent diets for their cats who won't eat the canned foods.
I posted those diets here a few months ago. Here's one and the URL, is
this like your raw food diet?

"We've included these diets for those who would like to home cook for
their special needs pets but don't know what or how. Hill's Science
Diet provides recipes for homemade versions of their prescription diets
to clients whose pets wouldn't eat the canned or dry versions of their
Prescription Diets. The sheet these recipes came from is Copyright by
Hill's Pet Products, 1989."
* Feline Restricted Protein Diet
* Feline Reducing Diet
* Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium Diet
* Feline Hypoallergenic Diet

http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

Feline Reducing Diet:
* 1 & 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
* 1 cup cooked white rice without salt
* 1 teaspoon vegetable oil
* 1 teaspoon (5 grams) calcium carbonate (health food stores or
ground egg shells)
* 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)

I wondered about the white rice. I guess they don't want all meat then?

yngver
December 6th 05, 11:00 PM
wrote:
> yngver wrote:

> > Yes, that's pretty interesting. Aren't all commercial cat foods now
> > somewhat acidic, to prevent struvites? I realize the prescription diets
> > are moreso. The only time we have ever fed a cat a single food was
> > while the one cat was on the Urinary SO only--when the repeat test
> > showed no struvites we went back to feeding a variety of foods. I've
> > always thought it best to feed a variety of foods and that reinforces
> > my opinion. As to indoor only, I suppose that increases stress levels
> > and the breed can't be helped--fortunately none of our cats are
> > Persians. I wonder which cat foods are less acidic?
> > -Yngver
>
> Depends, there is acidifying like SD x/d of pH 5.9 to 6.1and then not
> so acidic.
> Regular SD for cats < 7 years of age is a pH of 6.2 to 6.4
> For older cats they raise the pH, still acidic, but not so much,
> presumably to prevent the stones with a pH of 6.4 to 6.6. This is the
> Senior 7+ series.
>
> Science Diet gives out the pH levels on their web site. For the other
> brands, it's more difficult. I just cannot get that information. I
> guess I could buy a pH meter but I would like all information to be
> publicly available. It's a genuine pain sometimes trying to get
> information on the phone and sometimes it just does not exist. That
> makes me wonder how good is their food preparation and if the info line
> is just not up to par - which is what I hope for in this situation.
>
> I wonder if the preparation is so uneven that many companies do not
> like to post the details since it varies from batch to batch?

That could be the reason, or maybe some use Royal Canin/Waltham's
argument that pH is not the real issue. Interestingly, Royal Canin's
adult maintenance formula is for cats ages 1-10, so under their scheme
our cats are not "mature" or senior yet. The problem I have with the
senior formulae is that one of our cats (not the one with the struvite
history) tends to lose weight on those and our vet said to feed her the
regular adult versions because most of the senior versions have reduced
calories. I hope that is not doing her any harm.
-Yngver

December 6th 05, 11:15 PM
yngver wrote:
> > I wonder if the preparation is so uneven that many companies do not
> > like to post the details since it varies from batch to batch?
>
> That could be the reason, or maybe some use Royal Canin/Waltham's
> argument that pH is not the real issue. Interestingly, Royal Canin's
> adult maintenance formula is for cats ages 1-10, so under their scheme
> our cats are not "mature" or senior yet. The problem I have with the
> senior formulae is that one of our cats (not the one with the struvite
> history) tends to lose weight on those and our vet said to feed her the
> regular adult versions because most of the senior versions have reduced
> calories. I hope that is not doing her any harm.
> -Yngver

Depends. There is a lot of longevity research being done for last few
decades which shows on most living creatures fewer calories with
ADEQUATE NUTRITION results in much extended life spans for all
creatures. This is now being tested in humans. I don't know if this has
been tested in felines. Rats, mice, fruit flies, primates, but felines?
The key is adequate nutrition which means the Recommended Daily
Allowance for amino acids, minerals, and vitamins. I don't think I have
ever seen a portly of hefty cat over 20 years of age. I have seen very
tiny cats or slim cats over 20 years of age.

I noticed that just today about Royal Canin and their 1 to 10 range. I
need to think over their stuff, the kilocalories, the salt, and what
not. I have used one package so far, maybe 27 Indoor. I am trying to
feed more canned. And will probably go to more table food when the
situation is better for that. That is feed her fish or chicken. Right
now the fish I would like to feed is wild caught salmon and that's a
tad expensive. It's also fatty so have to watch it. I doubt if my cat
will eat red meat other than sparrow or mouse. Is a mouse red meat? Is
a sparrow poulty? What a gruesome discussion.

December 6th 05, 11:29 PM
Steve Crane wrote:
> 5cats wrote:
> > Speaking of weightloss, I ran into this article recently, again, something
> > more supporting a the idea of a high protein diet for weight loss.
> > http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

> Did the study support high protein? Consider
>
> 1. Note the protein was grain derived not meat - the protein source was
> corn gluten. Not germane to the issue of weight loss but interesting.
> See Table 1 in the study.
>
> 2. Percent loss per week - normal protein 1.1, high protein diet 1.0 -
> Table 3
>
> 3. Rate of Loss % per week - normal protein 0.78-1.9% high protein
> 0.74-1.3% - Table 3
>
> 4. NO statistical differrence in a) End % of fat, b) End grams of fat
> %, c) End grams of lean body mass %,
>
> Purina has been pushing the High Protein idea for 30 years. Ever since
> they introduced the Purina Hi Pro dog food with the Golden retreiver
> jumping over the log on the TV commercials in the 60's. It's good
> study, it's well done, but the results are hardly is a huge win for the
> high protein theory.

I wonder if the lesser results were due to the corn gluten? From what
you posted above and just eyeballing the article, they were, well,
putting a wee bit of spin. Some of the results are not considered stat
significant. Like above .05. Usually .05 is the barest minimum and that
can be noise or a 1 in 20 chance or coincidence. I see that in studies
sometimes, just posting the probability even though it failed it failed
by just a smidgen so what the heck. It's like saying, we were close,
give us a break :)

I can see where their article actually confirms ordinary protein levels
will do the job. And I noticed the fatty acids were less with normal
protein, the triglycerides and cholesterols, so I think, hmmm, maybe
corn gluten is not a hot idea? Maybe not statistically significant but
it's significant for me. One can have leeway both ways ;)

I'm happy to see that relatively low of 30% can do the job. That's good
to see although maybe Purina is not happy that I see that. Although
high protein of 39.1% will do the job, 30.0% protein, by their own
study, is a wee bit better. Close enough that it may not matter but why
do it then? Maybe somehow healthier not show in the analyses. Wait, the
glucose is better with the higher protein, but like the cholesterols
and so on, not statistically significant. Good, that's what I would
expect from a highish protein diet.




Interesting.

December 7th 05, 12:08 AM
Steve Crane wrote:
> 5cats wrote:
> > Speaking of weightloss, I ran into this article recently, again, something
> > more supporting a the idea of a high protein diet for weight loss.
> > http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf
>
> Did the study support high protein? Consider
>
> 1. Note the protein was grain derived not meat - the protein source was
> corn gluten. Not germane to the issue of weight loss but interesting.
> See Table 1 in the study.

It might explain the higher triglycerides and cholesterol levels in the
high protein group where you would expect a little less if Atkins is
correct?

> 2. Percent loss per week - normal protein 1.1, high protein diet 1.0 -
> Table 3

I looked at that. Then later I thought, okay, if losing fat instead of
lean muscle mass, that's a fair trade-off and even desireable. The
first time around I missed the whole point to their study. They are
claiming more fat is lost compared to lean muscle mass.

> 3. Rate of Loss % per week - normal protein 0.78-1.9% high protein
> 0.74-1.3% - Table 3
>
> 4. NO statistical differrence in a) End % of fat, b) End grams of fat
> %, c) End grams of lean body mass %,

But a p = .001 which is quite good that the change in Lean Body Mass is
significant. I also missed this the first time around. Can't argue with
a strong finding of 1 in 1000 that their study is just a fluke. You
could argue that only 8 cats in each group but still it is a good
attempt. I think they proved their point after I read the article a
third time.

> Purina has been pushing the High Protein idea for 30 years. Ever since
> they introduced the Purina Hi Pro dog food with the Golden retreiver
> jumping over the log on the TV commercials in the 60's. It's good
> study, it's well done, but the results are hardly is a huge win for the
> high protein theory.

They did a study which is good for them. I want to see more science
coming out of Purina since they are so big. I get discouraged with the
lack of detailed information about their pet products. I called them
today and Science Diet. I had to call Purina two or three times before
I could even get the kcal per gram on their weight reducing formula
which has been changed. That's scary. I tried to show them that if you
know the kcals [they did not know that calories are really kilocalories
in common parlance] in a cup and you know how many grams are in a cup
you can get the kcal per gram. I gave up.

With Science Diet I was trying to find out the moisture and the ash in
the canned Liver and Chicken. I also also trying to determine the
maximum shelf life. I got confused because, let's say, phosphorus is
0.17% and 0.70% dry matter basis, then working backwards, .17/.70
should be the dry matter. But I get 24% for dry matter. But it's 78%
moisture which leaves 22% dry matter. Why the difference? Maybe the
moisture on the can is the guaranteed level and not the usual level? I
was going over the info level of the phone person so I stopped.

The web site at hillspet.com does not spell out the ash and moisture
levels but does on the cans. Since they have everything else, why not
include that in the web site just for completeness sake? And
conversely, why not put the kilocalories on the cans themselves? Be
different. Lead the way to complete nutritional labeling.

PawsForThought
December 7th 05, 01:29 AM
wrote:
> What is your raw food diet? I bought very expensive organic raw food,
> slightly blanched acutally, all the way from New Zealand to USA and she
> refused to touch it. I've tried raw chicken, no dice. I guess she is
> not hungry enough or the meats do not meet her threshhold of approval.

I make the food myself, rather than buying a pre-packaged raw diet. It
generally consists of a muscle meat, offal (liver, etc.), supplements,
whole body fish oil, cooked squash. There is lots of variety in the
diet. For instance, one day the meat base may be chicken for a few
days, then change to beef or turkey. I also use meats like elk,
ostrich and quail. The key is to have variety in the diet, while in
balance. Some days it may have a ground meat base, other days it may
be chunked meat, or something like quail with the bones in. I'm not
too surprised your kitty wouldn't touch the food you got. Most cats
raised on a commercial food can be hard to switch to a raw diet.
Commercial food has added flavor enhancers and is also very strong
smelling (the smellier a food, the more the cat will be attracted to
it, in my experience). Cats can be switched but it takes some
patience, and adding the raw food very slowly to their regular diet. I
started my cats when they were kittens so it was pretty easy to switch
them.

\ I downloaded some diets from Science Diet [kudos to SD] which they
made
> available about 15 years ago, which appear quite good if someone wants
> to make equivalent diets for their cats who won't eat the canned foods.
> I posted those diets here a few months ago. Here's one and the URL, is
> this like your raw food diet?
> Feline Reducing Diet:
> * 1 & 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
> * 1 cup cooked white rice without salt
> * 1 teaspoon vegetable oil
> * 1 teaspoon (5 grams) calcium carbonate (health food stores or
> ground egg shells)
> * 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)

The diet I feed is nothing like this one, except I do use eggshell
powder for the calcium source when I'm not feeding bones. But I never
use white rice or vegetable oil. I don't know why they use vegetable
oil, as fish oil would be a better source for carnivores.

Lauren

See my cats: http://tinyurl.com/76tg8

Lauren

December 7th 05, 01:38 AM
wrote:

> I wonder if the preparation is so uneven that many companies do not
> like to post the details since it varies from batch to batch?

BINGO! This is the most likely reason.

December 7th 05, 02:02 AM
PawsForThought wrote:
> The diet I feed is nothing like this one, except I do use eggshell
> powder for the calcium source when I'm not feeding bones. But I never
> use white rice or vegetable oil. I don't know why they use vegetable
> oil, as fish oil would be a better source for carnivores.
>
> Lauren
>
> See my cats: http://tinyurl.com/76tg8
>
> Lauren

Do you feed then raw chicken bones? Or raw neck bones? Or any bones are
okay? I read that raw bones are okay. Cooked chicken bones are
dangerous. But since you're actually doing it, could you mention which
bones you have found are okay?

Your point about fish oil is well taken. I gather fish oil is more
expensive than cheap vegetable oil. Do you use any carbs at all? You
mentioned squash and that's a low calorie carb come to think of it.

"I make the food myself, rather than buying a pre-packaged raw diet.
It generally consists of a muscle meat, offal (liver, etc.),
supplements, whole body fish oil, cooked squash."

I see. Whole body fish oil is less likely to be contamined, as is
vegetable oil, unlike cod liver oil. I just read up on it. I wonder if
USP grade fish oil, distilled, and quite expensive, is also
contaminated or it's cleaned up by the USP grade process. Lots of
details.

Your cats M&M are like bookends, very pretty hanging out together.
Gonzo bikers. They liked their little kitty Harley hats then?

yngver
December 7th 05, 05:16 PM
wrote:
> yngver wrote:
> > > I wonder if the preparation is so uneven that many companies do not
> > > like to post the details since it varies from batch to batch?
> >
> > That could be the reason, or maybe some use Royal Canin/Waltham's
> > argument that pH is not the real issue. Interestingly, Royal Canin's
> > adult maintenance formula is for cats ages 1-10, so under their scheme
> > our cats are not "mature" or senior yet. The problem I have with the
> > senior formulae is that one of our cats (not the one with the struvite
> > history) tends to lose weight on those and our vet said to feed her the
> > regular adult versions because most of the senior versions have reduced
> > calories. I hope that is not doing her any harm.
> > -Yngver
>
> Depends. There is a lot of longevity research being done for last few
> decades which shows on most living creatures fewer calories with
> ADEQUATE NUTRITION results in much extended life spans for all
> creatures. This is now being tested in humans. I don't know if this has
> been tested in felines. Rats, mice, fruit flies, primates, but felines?
> The key is adequate nutrition which means the Recommended Daily
> Allowance for amino acids, minerals, and vitamins. I don't think I have
> ever seen a portly of hefty cat over 20 years of age. I have seen very
> tiny cats or slim cats over 20 years of age.

Well, our slim cat is one of those active and finicky cats who just
burns more calories than the others, and won't eat much at one sitting.
When we stopped free feeding a couple years ago, because the other cat
was getting too pudgy, that's when the slim one went from a little over
8 lbs. to close to 7. The vet agreed she was getting too thin. She just
doesn't do well if she can't snack when she wants to. And if she sniffs
a canned food and it doesn't please her or she's not in the mood, she
just runs off and won't eat. I guess you are right; she has always
seemed healthy even when she was getting bony, but we still think her
best weight is around 8 lbs. and it's a struggle to keep her close to
that. She's a barfer too, so it's hard to tell if she really is getting
adequate nutrition.
>
> I noticed that just today about Royal Canin and their 1 to 10 range. I
> need to think over their stuff, the kilocalories, the salt, and what
> not.

Individual cats age differently, just like human beings. We've all
known people who at 50 seemed more like they were 70 whereas other 50
year olds are as healthy as a 30 year old. Just because a cat turns 7
or 8 doesn't automatically mean the cat is suddenly "senior" physically
(although it does mean my vet starts charging a lot more for check-ups
since he is now running senior panels on the two older cats). In my
opinion age 10 makes more sense--I never had a cat who started to show
signs of slowing down before then or even older.

As for the salt, that's just in the Royal Canin prescription Urinary
SO. Their commercial foods like Indoor 27 don't have high sodium, or I
don't believe so. We started feeding Royal Canin because the cats like
the various foods and it seems to be a premium food that's readily
available. We used to feed Wellness, Nutro before they lowered their
quality, Wysong, Innova, Petguard, etc. but some of these are harder to
find and once we added a third cat to the household, I guess we got
lazy and just started buying food like Science Diet and Royal Canin
that we could get at Petsmart. Was trying to get the older cats to eat
SD's Advanced Protection but they don't like it.

I have used one package so far, maybe 27 Indoor. I am trying to
> feed more canned.

So are we. They each get part of a can of canned food in the morning
and in the evening, plus a helping of dry food. Am thinking of adding a
third meal of canned food at bedtime, and getting rid of the evening
meal of dry food. They do finish all their dry food allotment but leave
some of the canned food--they all three like dry food better than
canned. It's like they eat a token amount of the canned food because
they know they won't get their bit of dry food until after they eat
some of the canned.

And will probably go to more table food when the
> situation is better for that. That is feed her fish or chicken. Right
> now the fish I would like to feed is wild caught salmon and that's a
> tad expensive. It's also fatty so have to watch it. I doubt if my cat
> will eat red meat other than sparrow or mouse. Is a mouse red meat? Is
> a sparrow poulty? What a gruesome discussion.

Good luck--I had good intentions of trying to introduce more home-made
food as Lauren had been so succesful with her cats' diet, but our cats
were already adults and won't eat any of thatf. They might eat a little
cooked white turkey meat but just a few bites. They won't eat fish or
chicken or organ meat. Of course, they won't eat a mouse they have
caught either--just bat it around until it ceases to be amusing, and I
know they wouldn't eat a bird if they ever caught one. I think if we'd
tried to introduce a more natural diet when our cats were younger--not
necessarily kittens but younger than age 2--they would have accepted
it. Our cats never even want table scraps--they aren't interested in
human food at all--(well, one kind of likes potato chips but that's
certainly not good for her). Even the starving stray cat we took in a
couple years ago isn't interested in anything except store-bought cat
food--which I guess was why she was starving when she was out on the
streets.
-Gudrun

Phil P.
December 7th 05, 05:52 PM
"yngver" > wrote in message
oups.com...

>
> I also wonder if the SD Oral Care, because of having extra fiber, might
> have decreased urine output?


Absolutely! Fiber absorbs water- A lot of the water ingested is lost to
fecal moisture, so urine volume is lower. This happens with any dry food
but the loss is even greater with higher fiber dry foods.



She is the only one of our cats that ate
> that food. I should add that she also has asthma and gets a puff of
> Flovent every day, but I've never heard an association with asthma or
> Flovent and urinary tract disease.


Me neither.


>
> You have helped us make the decision to stop feeding the Urinary SO
> (although I guess we'll use up the few cans we have left) and see what
> happens at her next urinalysis.


Please don't discontinue a prescription diet based on my opinion- I'm not a
vet and I don't know anything about your cat's medical history. Before you
switch foods, please consult your vet.


All of the cats seem to like Science
> Diet Feline Maintenance canned food--something must have changed
> because a few years ago they wouldn't eat it--so I think we'll go with
> that and a couple other foods. For dry food, they like Science Diet
> Nature's Best and Royal Canin Indoor 27.
>
> Again, thanks for the advice.

You're welcome- but please check with your vet first before you switch
foods.

Good luck,

Phil

yngver
December 7th 05, 09:09 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "yngver" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> >
> > I also wonder if the SD Oral Care, because of having extra fiber, might
> > have decreased urine output?
>
>
> Absolutely! Fiber absorbs water- A lot of the water ingested is lost to
> fecal moisture, so urine volume is lower. This happens with any dry food
> but the loss is even greater with higher fiber dry foods.

Thanks, Phil. I think that basically answers my question about why this
particular cat got struvite crystals and the other cats in the
household haven't--despite the stress of adding another cat to the
household. She was the only one of them that ate the Oral Care every
day. That plus added stress was probably the culprit.
>
>
>
> She is the only one of our cats that ate
> > that food. I should add that she also has asthma and gets a puff of
> > Flovent every day, but I've never heard an association with asthma or
> > Flovent and urinary tract disease.
>
>
> Me neither
>
>
> >
> > You have helped us make the decision to stop feeding the Urinary SO
> > (although I guess we'll use up the few cans we have left) and see what
> > happens at her next urinalysis.
>
>
> Please don't discontinue a prescription diet based on my opinion- I'm not a
> vet and I don't know anything about your cat's medical history. Before you
> switch foods, please consult your vet.

Oh, I wouldn't do that. Our vet prescibed the Urinary SO after finding
struvites in a second urinalysis a month after the first one (thought
the first one might just be a fluke). However, after the next two
urinalyses while on the SO were normal, he said we could either stop
the prescription diet or continue, or feed some of each, whichever we
preferred.. He just said that if we went to a non-prescription diet she
might get crystals again. But we started feeding only one meal a day of
the SO (canned) and other foods at other meals, and she hasn't gotten
any more crystals. So our vet had already said it was okay to switch or
add in other foods if we wanted to.
>
>
> All of the cats seem to like Science
> > Diet Feline Maintenance canned food--something must have changed
> > because a few years ago they wouldn't eat it--so I think we'll go with
> > that and a couple other foods. For dry food, they like Science Diet
> > Nature's Best and Royal Canin Indoor 27.
> >
> > Again, thanks for the advice.
>
> You're welcome- but please check with your vet first before you switch
> foods.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Phil

Thanks again. Basically our vet was giving us a choice, so that's why I
was seeking an opinion.
-Yngver

PawsForThought
December 7th 05, 10:36 PM
wrote:
> Do you feed then raw chicken bones? Or raw neck bones? Or any bones are
> okay? I read that raw bones are okay. Cooked chicken bones are
> dangerous. But since you're actually doing it, could you mention which
> bones you have found are okay?

Yep, raw only, never cooked. I mostly feed quail or cornish game hen
because the bones are smaller.

> Your point about fish oil is well taken. I gather fish oil is more
> expensive than cheap vegetable oil. Do you use any carbs at all? You
> mentioned squash and that's a low calorie carb come to think of it.

No, I use no grains.

> > I see. Whole body fish oil is less likely to be contamined, as is
> vegetable oil, unlike cod liver oil. I just read up on it. I wonder if
> USP grade fish oil, distilled, and quite expensive, is also
> contaminated or it's cleaned up by the USP grade process. Lots of
> details.

I guess you have to be careful of the source for fish oil. The kind I
get is a company that uses molecularly distilled, a method of
purification that takes out mercury, PCB's and other contaminants.

> Your cats M&M are like bookends, very pretty hanging out together.
> Gonzo bikers. They liked their little kitty Harley hats then?

Thanks :) The Harley hats were actually put on their pictures with
photoshop, I think. A friend did them. I have been known to dress up
my cats though. I remember as a kid, I would try to put doll clothes
on my cat. My poor cat, LOL.

Lauren

Wendy
December 9th 05, 01:03 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "yngver" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>
>> I also wonder if the SD Oral Care, because of having extra fiber, might
>> have decreased urine output?
>
>
> Absolutely! Fiber absorbs water- A lot of the water ingested is lost to
> fecal moisture, so urine volume is lower. This happens with any dry food
> but the loss is even greater with higher fiber dry foods.



So feeding SD Hairball Lite could reduce urine output because it has a
higher fiber content (2.4g/100 kcal) than SD Original (.2g/100 kcal)?


<snip>

Phil P.
December 9th 05, 03:56 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> .net...
> >
> > "yngver" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >>
> >> I also wonder if the SD Oral Care, because of having extra fiber, might
> >> have decreased urine output?
> >
> >
> > Absolutely! Fiber absorbs water- A lot of the water ingested is lost to
> > fecal moisture, so urine volume is lower. This happens with any dry
food
> > but the loss is even greater with higher fiber dry foods.
>
>
>
> So feeding SD Hairball Lite could reduce urine output because it has a
> higher fiber content (2.4g/100 kcal) than SD Original (.2g/100 kcal)?

That's right. SD Hairball Light contains12 times more fiber than Original
dry which results in lower urine volume and higher fecal moisture.

Hairball Light canned contains about the same fiber content as HB-L dry but
the canned version also contains 9 times more water which offsets some
urinary water losses to fecal moisture.