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View Full Version : Good afternoon, just a a question


Paul O.
November 25th 05, 09:26 PM
Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the vet said
the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was slightly
elevated and put him on Hills K/D. Of course he doesn't like it at all, eats
just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose. My question is, what
is the difference in the K/D and his regular food? Must be lower levels of
something in the K/D. Thanks folks.

--
Paul O.

Barb
November 25th 05, 11:52 PM
Does your vet just happen to sell that?

Try pinging Phil- he's knowledgeable.

--
Barb
Of course I don't look busy,
I did it right the first time.

5cats
November 26th 05, 12:11 AM
Paul O. wrote:

> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the
> vet said the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was
> slightly elevated and put him on Hills K/D. Of course he doesn't like
> it at all, eats just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose.
> My question is, what is the difference in the K/D and his regular
> food? Must be lower levels of something in the K/D. Thanks folks.
>

K/D is lower in phosphorus and protein than regular foods. Low phosphorus
is what's especially important for cats in early stages of renal failure.
I hope you're trying the canned version of K/D, the increased water
content is a good thing for kidney patients too. There's a K/D with
chicken that some cats like better than regular K/D. And there are other
brands that have renal diets too, Purina NF is one. There are a few
others as well, hopefully you'll find one your cat will eat willingly.

for more CRF info, check out
http://www.felinecrf.org/ and
http://www.felinecrf.com/

Paul O.
November 26th 05, 12:20 AM
"Barb" > wrote in message
o.verio.net...
> Does your vet just happen to sell that?
>
> Try pinging Phil- he's knowledgeable.
>
> --
> Barb
> Of course I don't look busy,
> I did it right the first time.
>
>
Yes, this is what he has.
I'll wait to see if Phil reads this and chimes in.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

Paul O.
November 26th 05, 12:26 AM
This is different than the CRF, correct? He was on Waltham's Renal LP some
time ago and apparently is ok on that. CRF is liver?, and now this is
Kidney.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless



"5cats" > wrote in message
...
> Paul O. wrote:
>
>> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
>> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the
>> vet said the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was
>> slightly elevated and put him on Hills K/D. Of course he doesn't like
>> it at all, eats just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose.
>> My question is, what is the difference in the K/D and his regular
>> food? Must be lower levels of something in the K/D. Thanks folks.
>>
>
> K/D is lower in phosphorus and protein than regular foods. Low phosphorus
> is what's especially important for cats in early stages of renal failure.
> I hope you're trying the canned version of K/D, the increased water
> content is a good thing for kidney patients too. There's a K/D with
> chicken that some cats like better than regular K/D. And there are other
> brands that have renal diets too, Purina NF is one. There are a few
> others as well, hopefully you'll find one your cat will eat willingly.
>
> for more CRF info, check out
> http://www.felinecrf.org/ and
> http://www.felinecrf.com/
>
>
>

CatNipped
November 26th 05, 12:32 AM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
om...
> This is different than the CRF, correct? He was on Waltham's Renal LP some
> time ago and apparently is ok on that. CRF is liver?, and now this is
> Kidney.

No, CRF stands for Chronic Renal Failure. Renal refers to the kidneys.

Hugs,

CatNipped

> --
> Paul O.
> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given
>
> Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
> Learning more every day, but still clueless
>
>
>
> "5cats" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Paul O. wrote:
> >
> >> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
> >> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the
> >> vet said the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was
> >> slightly elevated and put him on Hills K/D. Of course he doesn't like
> >> it at all, eats just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose.
> >> My question is, what is the difference in the K/D and his regular
> >> food? Must be lower levels of something in the K/D. Thanks folks.
> >>
> >
> > K/D is lower in phosphorus and protein than regular foods. Low
phosphorus
> > is what's especially important for cats in early stages of renal
failure.
> > I hope you're trying the canned version of K/D, the increased water
> > content is a good thing for kidney patients too. There's a K/D with
> > chicken that some cats like better than regular K/D. And there are other
> > brands that have renal diets too, Purina NF is one. There are a few
> > others as well, hopefully you'll find one your cat will eat willingly.
> >
> > for more CRF info, check out
> > http://www.felinecrf.org/ and
> > http://www.felinecrf.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Paul O.
November 26th 05, 01:02 AM
"CatNipped" > wrote in message
...
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> om...
>> This is different than the CRF, correct? He was on Waltham's Renal LP
>> some
>> time ago and apparently is ok on that. CRF is liver?, and now this is
>> Kidney.
>
> No, CRF stands for Chronic Renal Failure. Renal refers to the kidneys.
>
> Hugs,
>
> CatNipped
>
>>Ok, got it. Anyway I'm concerned with the amount he is eating now. He
>>won't hardly touch this stuff. I had started out mixing this with his
>>other food and now am up to a 50/50 mix. The more of this stuff there is
>>the less he eats. I used to feed Nutro in a pouch and add water to keep
>>his urination up. I also have te K/d dry and he eats some of that also,
>>but again not much. I guess he isn't going to starve himself but I don't
>>want him losing a lot of weight either.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

Juls
November 26th 05, 02:08 AM
In article >,
"Paul O." > wrote:

> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the vet said
> the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was slightly
> elevated and put him on Hills K/D. Of course he doesn't like it at all, eats
> just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose. My question is, what
> is the difference in the K/D and his regular food? Must be lower levels of
> something in the K/D. Thanks folks.

I agree with the other posters...Phil P knows a lot about this.

I had to put one of my cats on the kidney diet, too. He hated the
regular KD, but would eat the chicken flavor. I did give him some other
foods, too, just to keep him happy and eating well, but I really studied
the phosphorus levels and picked the lowest ones. Phil recommended some
that Dmitri really did like.

Here are two sites that list phosphorus levels of food:

http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html

There seems to be disagreement over whether or not low protein is
important in early stage renal failure. But keeping the phosphorus low
is critical.

Juls

--
Email (remove annoying hyphens)
j-u-l-i-AT-e-c-t-DOT-o-r-g

Phil P.
November 26th 05, 01:31 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
. net...
> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the vet
said
> the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was slightly
> elevated and put him on Hills K/D.

Paul,

K/d is better suited for a cat in mid- to end-stage kidney disease. The
protein content of k/d is too low for a cat in the early stages of CRF. You
really don't want to restrict protein in a cat until the BUN reaches 60-80
mg/dl. Prematurely restricting a cat's protein intake can have some
deleterious consequences. You might want to speak your vet about g/d or x/d-
preferably x/d. They're similar in composition as k/d but contain more
protein and slightly more phosphorus. X/d is less acidic than g/d and almost
identical to k/d's acidity.



Of course he doesn't like it at all, eats
> just enough to take away the hunger feeling I suppose.



I understand why he doesn't like k/d- it contains barely enough protein to
meet a cat's daily minimum protein requirement. It doesn't matter how
perfectly formulated a kidney diet is supposed to be if the cat won't eat
it.

Purina ( NF Kidney Function) and Eukanuba (Multi-Stage Renal) are kidney
diets with similar formulations as k/d..



My question is, what
> is the difference in the K/D and his regular food? Must be lower levels of
> something in the K/D. Thanks folks.
>

Kidney diets usually contain less protein, phosphorus, sodium and acidity.
In early stage kidney disease I would be more concerned about restricting
phosphorus and acidity than protein. For this, x/d is the best. I've seen
renal cats make dramatic comebacks after switching to x/d from k/d.
Surprisingly, x/d even reduced the BUN in some cats.

Best of luck,

Phil

Paul O.
November 26th 05, 03:00 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving. The question concerns Dufus, of
>> course, our cat. A few weeks ago had him in for his checkup and the vet
> said
>> the cretin, cratin level, whatever it is, in the kidneys was slightly
>> elevated and put him on Hills K/D.
>
> Paul,
>
> K/d is better suited for a cat in mid- to end-stage kidney disease. The
> protein content of k/d is too low for a cat in the early stages of CRF.
> You
> really don't want to restrict protein in a cat until the BUN reaches 60-80
> mg/dl. Prematurely restricting a cat's protein intake can have some
> deleterious consequences. You might want to speak your vet about g/d or
> x/d-
> preferably x/d. They're similar in composition as k/d but contain more
> protein and slightly more phosphorus. X/d is less acidic than g/d and
> almost
> identical to k/d's acidity.
>
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil

Thanks Phil. Gonna have to go to the vet this morning and get more food this
morning so will try to speak to the vet then and will question the protein
amount. Not sure if he had x/d. The cat had been on Waltham's Renal LP in
the past and am now wondering why the vet didn't put him on that again. How
does this food compare with the Hills.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

Phil P.
November 26th 05, 03:24 PM
"Barb" > wrote in message
o.verio.net...
> Does your vet just happen to sell that?
>
> Try pinging Phil- he's knowledgeable.

Thanks, Barb.

Phil P.
November 26th 05, 03:24 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
. net...

> Thanks Phil. Gonna have to go to the vet this morning and get more food
this
> morning so will try to speak to the vet then and will question the protein
> amount. Not sure if he had x/d. The cat had been on Waltham's Renal LP in
> the past and am now wondering why the vet didn't put him on that again.
How
> does this food compare with the Hills.

Waltham's is lower in protein (and potassium) than k/d. The energy density
is higher because it contains more fat. Its a good mid- to end-stage CRF
diet, but I wouldn't feed it to a cat in the early stages.

X/d is a calcium oxalate diet, so your vet probably carries it. I'd go with
the canned version. While you're there, ask your vet about a potassium
supplement.

Good luck,

Phil

Phil P.
November 26th 05, 03:27 PM
"Juls" > wrote in message
...

> There seems to be disagreement over whether or not low protein is
> important in early stage renal failure. But keeping the phosphorus low
> is critical.

Hi Juls,

The tradition of restricting protein in cats (and dogs) was originally based
on older studies in rats. Later studies in cats found that the mechanisms
that can affect the progression of CRF in the rat don't have the same effect
in the cat (or dog). It just goes to show you how long it takes for many
vets to give up old traditions.

Restricting protein is important in the later stages of CRF- but only to
ameliorate clinical signs of azotemia because as CRF progresses the cat's
kidneys lose the ability to filter all the uremic toxins from the blood.
Restricting protein doesn't actually slow the progression of CRF. In fact,
prematurely restricting protein in cats can be inherently dangerous because
of their higher protein requirement and inability to readily adapt to
low-protein intakes.

Thanks for pointing out this fact.

Phil

Paul O.
November 26th 05, 07:49 PM
Just returned from the vet and got more info. The vet is staying with the
k/d. He does have the x/d, but says it's not as good, pointing out the
higher protein level, and at this point I didn't push it cause the cat
probably wouldn't like it any better I'm thinking. He did get me some a/d to
mix in with the k/d to hopefully make it more palatible. I noticed on the
can of a/d that the protein is higher in the a/d. I also got a copy of the
results for the blood test. The creatin(sp?) level which has a reference
range of .8 to 2.4 was 2.8. The Bun reference range is 16 to 36 and was
29mg/dl. So the only thing on his blood test that was out of normal was the
creatin. Not sure at this point what to do, the cat has to start eating
more, maybe the a/d added will help. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless




"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> . net...
>
>> Thanks Phil. Gonna have to go to the vet this morning and get more food
> this
>> morning so will try to speak to the vet then and will question the
>> protein
>> amount. Not sure if he had x/d. The cat had been on Waltham's Renal LP in
>> the past and am now wondering why the vet didn't put him on that again.
> How
>> does this food compare with the Hills.
>
> Waltham's is lower in protein (and potassium) than k/d. The energy
> density
> is higher because it contains more fat. Its a good mid- to end-stage CRF
> diet, but I wouldn't feed it to a cat in the early stages.
>
> X/d is a calcium oxalate diet, so your vet probably carries it. I'd go
> with
> the canned version. While you're there, ask your vet about a potassium
> supplement.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Phil
>
>
>

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 08:01 AM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
. com...
> Just returned from the vet and got more info. The vet is staying with the
> k/d. He does have the x/d, but says it's not as good, pointing out the
> higher protein level, and at this point I didn't push it cause the cat
> probably wouldn't like it any better I'm thinking. He did get me some a/d
to
> mix in with the k/d to hopefully make it more palatible.


Your vet didn't like the idea of feeding your cat x/d but told you mix in
a/d- which contains more protein and almost twice the phosphorus as x/d? I
think you should seek a second opinion.



I noticed on the
> can of a/d that the protein is higher in the a/d. I also got a copy of the
> results for the blood test. The creatin(sp?) level which has a reference
> range of .8 to 2.4 was 2.8. The Bun reference range is 16 to 36 and was
> 29mg/dl. So the only thing on his blood test that was out of normal was
the
> creatin.


Your cat's BUN/Creatinine levels are *much* to low to begin restricting
protein! Much to low. I really think you should seek a second opinion.
Restricting protein at this stage can have serious consequences.




Not sure at this point what to do, the cat has to start eating
> more, maybe the a/d added will help. Thanks for your input, I appreciate
it.

Most cats love a/d because its high in fat and protein- however, chronic
feeding can cause diarrhea. A/d is also very high in phosphorus and negates
the low-phosphorus benefit of k/d. The mixture of k/d and a/d probably
equals, if not exceeds, the protein content and certainly the phosphorus
content of x/d.

You need to find another vet.

Best of luck,

Phil

Paul O.
November 27th 05, 05:27 PM
Thanks Phil. I think I will take the advice and seek a second opinion. My
neighbor has 3 cats, and I will find out today who his vet is. Now I have a
couple more questions. I hope they do not sound arguemenative(sp?) What
might another vet do in this situation? If k/d is not the soloution, would
another vet recommend another prescription diet that 'he' sells, that might
be different in protein and phos. levels? Or might he recommend the k/d with
a possible protein supplement of some sort? Are there other ways of going
about all this? Just what might I expect from another vet? Thanks again for
your input and time.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless



"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> . com...
>> Just returned from the vet and got more info. The vet is staying with the
>> k/d. He does have the x/d, but says it's not as good, pointing out the
>> higher protein level, and at this point I didn't push it cause the cat
>> probably wouldn't like it any better I'm thinking. He did get me some a/d
> to
>> mix in with the k/d to hopefully make it more palatible.
>
>
> Your vet didn't like the idea of feeding your cat x/d but told you mix in
> a/d- which contains more protein and almost twice the phosphorus as x/d?
> I
> think you should seek a second opinion.
>
>
>
> I noticed on the
>> can of a/d that the protein is higher in the a/d. I also got a copy of
>> the
>> results for the blood test. The creatin(sp?) level which has a reference
>> range of .8 to 2.4 was 2.8. The Bun reference range is 16 to 36 and was
>> 29mg/dl. So the only thing on his blood test that was out of normal was
> the
>> creatin.
>
>
> Your cat's BUN/Creatinine levels are *much* to low to begin restricting
> protein! Much to low. I really think you should seek a second opinion.
> Restricting protein at this stage can have serious consequences.
>
>
>
>
> Not sure at this point what to do, the cat has to start eating
>> more, maybe the a/d added will help. Thanks for your input, I appreciate
> it.
>
> Most cats love a/d because its high in fat and protein- however, chronic
> feeding can cause diarrhea. A/d is also very high in phosphorus and
> negates
> the low-phosphorus benefit of k/d. The mixture of k/d and a/d probably
> equals, if not exceeds, the protein content and certainly the phosphorus
> content of x/d.
>
> You need to find another vet.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

J. Martin
November 27th 05, 05:31 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
om...
>
> "CatNipped" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Paul O." > wrote in message
>> om...
>>> This is different than the CRF, correct? He was on Waltham's Renal LP
>>> some
>>> time ago and apparently is ok on that. CRF is liver?, and now this is
>>> Kidney.
>>
>> No, CRF stands for Chronic Renal Failure. Renal refers to the kidneys.
>>
>> Hugs,
>>
>> CatNipped
>>
>>>Ok, got it. Anyway I'm concerned with the amount he is eating now. He
>>>won't hardly touch this stuff. I had started out mixing this with his
>>>other food and now am up to a 50/50 mix. The more of this stuff there is
>>>the less he eats. I used to feed Nutro in a pouch and add water to keep
>>>his urination up. I also have te K/d dry and he eats some of that also,
>>>but again not much. I guess he isn't going to starve himself but I don't
>>>want him losing a lot of weight either.
> --
> Paul O.
> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given
>

I'm concerned you are not doing your cat any favours by trying to switch him
to K/D.

Did your vet do a urinalysis when the blood was analyzed? Your cat had
very slightly elevated creatinine levels and normal urea levels. The only
way you could say he has CRF at those levels is if he also has a low urine
specific gravity (poorly concentrated urine).

Even if his urine were poorly concentrated and he has CRF, it is still too
early to be restricting protein. Urea levels have to be much higher before
protein restriction is helpful and excessive protein restriction at this
time could be detrimental. Even worse is the fact that he doesn't like K/D
and his intake had decreased as a result.

I usually recommend G/D or MediCal Mature for cats at this stage (assuming
low urine specific gravity) and start transitioning towards a more canned
food based diet. If cats don't like these food then I recommend a premium
senior diet. I would recheck blood work (at least urea, creatinine,
electrolytes and phosphorus), and do a urinalysis and perhaps a urine
protein:creatine ratio (to assess protein loss thru kidneys) in 2-3 months
in order to determine the rate of progression and the possible need for
further therapeutic measures (diet, supplements, medications).

J. dvm

Paul O.
November 27th 05, 06:27 PM
>>Not sure if he did do a urinalysis, wouldn't that be done on a reguar
>>checkup? I have a copy of the blood tests with a lot of abbreviations on
>>two sections of the copy of tests and not sure what to look for for what
>>you are referring to. Thanks.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

>
> I'm concerned you are not doing your cat any favours by trying to switch
> him to K/D.
>
> Did your vet do a urinalysis when the blood was analyzed? Your cat had
> very slightly elevated creatinine levels and normal urea levels. The
> only way you could say he has CRF at those levels is if he also has a low
> urine specific gravity (poorly concentrated urine).
>
> Even if his urine were poorly concentrated and he has CRF, it is still too
> early to be restricting protein. Urea levels have to be much higher
> before protein restriction is helpful and excessive protein restriction at
> this time could be detrimental. Even worse is the fact that he doesn't
> like K/D and his intake had decreased as a result.
>
> I usually recommend G/D or MediCal Mature for cats at this stage (assuming
> low urine specific gravity) and start transitioning towards a more canned
> food based diet. If cats don't like these food then I recommend a premium
> senior diet. I would recheck blood work (at least urea, creatinine,
> electrolytes and phosphorus), and do a urinalysis and perhaps a urine
> protein:creatine ratio (to assess protein loss thru kidneys) in 2-3 months
> in order to determine the rate of progression and the possible need for
> further therapeutic measures (diet, supplements, medications).
>
> J. dvm
>

John Doe
November 27th 05, 08:37 PM
"Paul O." <oplholik gmail.com> wrote:

>>>Not sure if he did do a urinalysis, wouldn't that be done on a
>>>reguar checkup? I have a copy of the blood tests with a lot of
>>>abbreviations on two sections of the copy of tests and not sure
>>>what to look for for what you are referring to. Thanks.
> --
> Paul O.
> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Assuming anyone can tell where that advice might be hidden. In other
words, are your comments top posted and second-level quoted? Wow.




>
> Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
> Learning more every day, but still clueless
> oplholik hotmail.com
>>
>> I'm concerned you are not doing your cat any favours by trying to switch
>> him to K/D.
>>
>> Did your vet do a urinalysis when the blood was analyzed? Your cat had
>> very slightly elevated creatinine levels and normal urea levels. The
>> only way you could say he has CRF at those levels is if he also has a low
>> urine specific gravity (poorly concentrated urine).
>>
>> Even if his urine were poorly concentrated and he has CRF, it is still too
>> early to be restricting protein. Urea levels have to be much higher
>> before protein restriction is helpful and excessive protein restriction at
>> this time could be detrimental. Even worse is the fact that he doesn't
>> like K/D and his intake had decreased as a result.
>>
>> I usually recommend G/D or MediCal Mature for cats at this stage (assuming
>> low urine specific gravity) and start transitioning towards a more canned
>> food based diet. If cats don't like these food then I recommend a premium
>> senior diet. I would recheck blood work (at least urea, creatinine,
>> electrolytes and phosphorus), and do a urinalysis and perhaps a urine
>> protein:creatine ratio (to assess protein loss thru kidneys) in 2-3 months
>> in order to determine the rate of progression and the possible need for
>> further therapeutic measures (diet, supplements, medications).
>>
>> J. dvm
>>
>
>
>
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> From: "Paul O." <oplholik gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
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whitershadeofpale
November 27th 05, 08:45 PM
John Doe wrote:

> Assuming anyone can tell where that advice might be hidden. In other
> words, are your comments top posted and second-level quoted? Wow.


ah the poopy smelling troll

Jesus John go wash your hands!

John Doe
November 27th 05, 08:55 PM
Troll

"whitershadeofpale" <bigbadbarry adelphia.net> wrote:

> Path: newssvr27.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy. com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.gigan ews.com!postnews.google.com!o13g2000cwo.googlegrou ps.com!not-for-mail
> From: "whitershadeofpale" <bigbadbarry adelphia.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon, just a a question
> Date: 27 Nov 2005 11:45:38 -0800
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>
>
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Assuming anyone can tell where that advice might be hidden. In other
>> words, are your comments top posted and second-level quoted? Wow.
>
>
> ah the poopy smelling troll
>
> Jesus John go wash your hands!
>
>
>

J. Martin
November 27th 05, 09:18 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
om...
>>>Not sure if he did do a urinalysis, wouldn't that be done on a reguar
>>>checkup? I have a copy of the blood tests with a lot of abbreviations on
>>>two sections of the copy of tests and not sure what to look for for what
>>>you are referring to. Thanks.


Regular checkups do not necessarily include a urinalysis, nor blood tests
for that matter. Look on your paper work for terms such as "urinalysis"
"urine" or "U/A". The results would be listed separately from the blood
results. Urine specific gravity is sometimes abbreviated as "S.G." and is a
number between 1.000 and 1.060.




> --
> Paul O.
> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given
>
> Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
> Learning more every day, but still clueless
>
>>
>> I'm concerned you are not doing your cat any favours by trying to switch
>> him to K/D.
>>
>> Did your vet do a urinalysis when the blood was analyzed? Your cat had
>> very slightly elevated creatinine levels and normal urea levels. The
>> only way you could say he has CRF at those levels is if he also has a low
>> urine specific gravity (poorly concentrated urine).
>>
>> Even if his urine were poorly concentrated and he has CRF, it is still
>> too early to be restricting protein. Urea levels have to be much higher
>> before protein restriction is helpful and excessive protein restriction
>> at this time could be detrimental. Even worse is the fact that he
>> doesn't like K/D and his intake had decreased as a result.
>>
>> I usually recommend G/D or MediCal Mature for cats at this stage
>> (assuming low urine specific gravity) and start transitioning towards a
>> more canned food based diet. If cats don't like these food then I
>> recommend a premium senior diet. I would recheck blood work (at least
>> urea, creatinine, electrolytes and phosphorus), and do a urinalysis and
>> perhaps a urine protein:creatine ratio (to assess protein loss thru
>> kidneys) in 2-3 months in order to determine the rate of progression and
>> the possible need for further therapeutic measures (diet, supplements,
>> medications).
>>
>> J. dvm
>>
>
>

Paul O.
November 27th 05, 11:04 PM
Thanks J. Don't see anything like that listed.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless



"J. Martin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> om...
>>>>Not sure if he did do a urinalysis, wouldn't that be done on a reguar
>>>>checkup? I have a copy of the blood tests with a lot of abbreviations on
>>>>two sections of the copy of tests and not sure what to look for for what
>>>>you are referring to. Thanks.
>
>
> Regular checkups do not necessarily include a urinalysis, nor blood tests
> for that matter. Look on your paper work for terms such as "urinalysis"
> "urine" or "U/A". The results would be listed separately from the blood
> results. Urine specific gravity is sometimes abbreviated as "S.G." and is
> a number between 1.000 and 1.060.
>
>
>
>
>> --
>> Paul O.
>> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given
>>
>> Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
>> Learning more every day, but still clueless
>>
>>>
>>> I'm concerned you are not doing your cat any favours by trying to switch
>>> him to K/D.
>>>
>>> Did your vet do a urinalysis when the blood was analyzed? Your cat had
>>> very slightly elevated creatinine levels and normal urea levels. The
>>> only way you could say he has CRF at those levels is if he also has a
>>> low urine specific gravity (poorly concentrated urine).
>>>
>>> Even if his urine were poorly concentrated and he has CRF, it is still
>>> too early to be restricting protein. Urea levels have to be much higher
>>> before protein restriction is helpful and excessive protein restriction
>>> at this time could be detrimental. Even worse is the fact that he
>>> doesn't like K/D and his intake had decreased as a result.
>>>
>>> I usually recommend G/D or MediCal Mature for cats at this stage
>>> (assuming low urine specific gravity) and start transitioning towards a
>>> more canned food based diet. If cats don't like these food then I
>>> recommend a premium senior diet. I would recheck blood work (at least
>>> urea, creatinine, electrolytes and phosphorus), and do a urinalysis and
>>> perhaps a urine protein:creatine ratio (to assess protein loss thru
>>> kidneys) in 2-3 months in order to determine the rate of progression and
>>> the possible need for further therapeutic measures (diet, supplements,
>>> medications).
>>>
>>> J. dvm
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Phil P.
November 27th 05, 11:23 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
et...
> Thanks Phil. I think I will take the advice and seek a second opinion. My
> neighbor has 3 cats, and I will find out today who his vet is. Now I have
a
> couple more questions. I hope they do not sound arguemenative(sp?) What
> might another vet do in this situation?



As Dr. Martin recommended, find out if your vet checked your cat's urine
specific gravity (USG). Failing kidneys lose their ability to conserve body
water and concentrate urine. If your cat's USG is in the normal range, then
the elevated creatinine could have been artifactual or a result of prerenal
factors. A cat can have elevated kidney values without having kidney
disease. Bloodwork with a USG gives you more information about kidney
function than either test alone.



If k/d is not the soloution, would
> another vet recommend another prescription diet that 'he' sells, that
might
> be different in protein and phos. levels?


As I said, your cat's kidney values are *much* to low to even think about
restricting protein.


Or might he recommend the k/d with
> a possible protein supplement of some sort? Are there other ways of going
> about all this? Just what might I expect from another vet? Thanks again
for
> your input and time.


Before worrying about kidney diets and restricting protein, I think the most
important step right now is to check your cat's USG and determine *if* your
cat is even in the early stages of CRF.

I can't believe I didn't mention this earlier! I should know better than to
assume your vet checked your cat's USG. I'm thankful Dr. Martin brought it
to your attention.


Good luck.

Phil


> --
> Paul O.
> My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given
>
> Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
> Learning more every day, but still clueless
>
>
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Paul O." > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> Just returned from the vet and got more info. The vet is staying with
the
> >> k/d. He does have the x/d, but says it's not as good, pointing out the
> >> higher protein level, and at this point I didn't push it cause the cat
> >> probably wouldn't like it any better I'm thinking. He did get me some
a/d
> > to
> >> mix in with the k/d to hopefully make it more palatible.
> >
> >
> > Your vet didn't like the idea of feeding your cat x/d but told you mix
in
> > a/d- which contains more protein and almost twice the phosphorus as x/d?
> > I
> > think you should seek a second opinion.
> >
> >
> >
> > I noticed on the
> >> can of a/d that the protein is higher in the a/d. I also got a copy of
> >> the
> >> results for the blood test. The creatin(sp?) level which has a
reference
> >> range of .8 to 2.4 was 2.8. The Bun reference range is 16 to 36 and
was
> >> 29mg/dl. So the only thing on his blood test that was out of normal was
> > the
> >> creatin.
> >
> >
> > Your cat's BUN/Creatinine levels are *much* to low to begin restricting
> > protein! Much to low. I really think you should seek a second opinion.
> > Restricting protein at this stage can have serious consequences.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Not sure at this point what to do, the cat has to start eating
> >> more, maybe the a/d added will help. Thanks for your input, I
appreciate
> > it.
> >
> > Most cats love a/d because its high in fat and protein- however, chronic
> > feeding can cause diarrhea. A/d is also very high in phosphorus and
> > negates
> > the low-phosphorus benefit of k/d. The mixture of k/d and a/d probably
> > equals, if not exceeds, the protein content and certainly the phosphorus
> > content of x/d.
> >
> > You need to find another vet.
> >
> > Best of luck,
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Paul O.
November 27th 05, 11:58 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> et...
>> Thanks Phil. I think I will take the advice and seek a second opinion. My
>> neighbor has 3 cats, and I will find out today who his vet is. Now I have
> a
>> couple more questions. I hope they do not sound arguemenative(sp?) What
>> might another vet do in this situation?
>
>
>
> As Dr. Martin recommended, find out if your vet checked your cat's urine
> specific gravity (USG). Failing kidneys lose their ability to conserve
> body
> water and concentrate urine. If your cat's USG is in the normal range,
> then
> the elevated creatinine could have been artifactual or a result of
> prerenal
> factors. A cat can have elevated kidney values without having kidney
> disease. Bloodwork with a USG gives you more information about kidney
> function than either test alone.
>
>
> Thanks again, I am going to get a second opinion tomorrow. Could any of
> this be caused by stress, such as taken him to a vet, by any chance?
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

Phil P.
November 28th 05, 05:47 AM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
. com...

> > Thanks again, I am going to get a second opinion tomorrow. Could any of
> > this be caused by stress, such as taken him to a vet, by any chance?

Could be. I've known older cats that became azotemic from a trip to the vet.
However, in these cats the BUN was also elevated. The only times I've seen
elevated creatinine without an elevation in BUN was either lab
error/artifactual or in large muscular cats. Creatinine production is
relatively proportional to the cat's muscle mass. IOW, cats with a large
muscle mass usually produce more creatinine than cats with a small muscle
mass.
Eating meat before the blood sample is taken could also increase creatinine
levels a little.

Have you ever had bloodwork done on your cat before? Previous bloodwork
could serve as a baseline for his normal values. This is why yearly
bloodwork/urinalysis are so important- even if the cat isn't sick.

I really think checking your cat's urine specific gravity should be your
next step. Usually cats in the very early stages of CRF lose some ability
to concentrate their urine before they lose the ability to excrete waste
products from the blood. USG might give you all the answers you need.

Btw, Heska makes a test called "E.R.D.-HealthScreen Feline Urine Test Kit"
that's supposed to detect very early kidney disease in cats by detecting
microalbuminuria. Although its not 100% specific for kidney disease it
could alert you to other problems. Its a little more sensitive than routine
urine protein tests. You might want to ask your vet about it.

Let me know the results of the urinalysis when you get them- and be sure to
get a copy of *all* of your cat's medical records.

Best of luck,

Phil

Paul O.
November 29th 05, 11:57 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> . com...
>
>> > Thanks again, I am going to get a second opinion tomorrow. Could any of
>> > this be caused by stress, such as taken him to a vet, by any chance?
>
>>
> I really think checking your cat's urine specific gravity should be your
> next step. Usually cats in the very early stages of CRF lose some ability
> to concentrate their urine before they lose the ability to excrete waste
> products from the blood. USG might give you all the answers you need.
>
>> Let me know the results of the urinalysis when you get them- and be sure
>> to
> get a copy of *all* of your cat's medical records.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
>
>Went to the other vet yesterday and he called with the results this
>afternoon. Don't have all the info in front of me, he is mailing it all.
>But his creatinine which was 2.8 a couple weeks ago from the first checkup
>is now 2.3. He did the urinalysys also. The vet said he is fine. Needs to
>lose a little weight. He also said the k/d was a good diet but doesn't need
>to be on it. He did tell me that I needed to change his regular diet from
>the nutro pouch type food because all the gravy type foods are loaded with
>carbs, and a pate type food is better. That's about the jist of it and I
>feel better about it. So we'll see how it goes. Thanks.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

..

Phil P.
November 30th 05, 08:46 PM
"Paul O." > wrote in message
m...

> >Went to the other vet yesterday and he called with the results this
> >afternoon. Don't have all the info in front of me, he is mailing it all.
> >But his creatinine which was 2.8 a couple weeks ago from the first
checkup
> >is now 2.3.


That's still a little high- borderline by my lab's reference range. Is he a
muscular cat?


He did the urinalysys also. The vet said he is fine. Needs to
> >lose a little weight. He also said the k/d was a good diet but doesn't
need
> >to be on it.


I was hoping he'd change his mind.



He did tell me that I needed to change his regular diet from
> >the nutro pouch type food because all the gravy type foods are loaded
with
> >carbs, and a pate type food is better.


Try to find he likes that has a phosphorus content <.80% (DMB) or 0.20% "as
fed".

http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm


That's about the jist of it and I
> >feel better about it. So we'll see how it goes. Thanks.

Best of luck,

Phil

Paul O.
December 1st 05, 01:58 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> m...
>
>> >Went to the other vet yesterday and he called with the results this
>> >afternoon. Don't have all the info in front of me, he is mailing it all.
>> >But his creatinine which was 2.8 a couple weeks ago from the first
> checkup
>> >is now 2.3.
>
>
> That's still a little high- borderline by my lab's reference range. Is he
> a
> muscular cat?

> > Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
>
Yeh, I guess, he's a Maine Coon
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless

Paul O.
December 1st 05, 02:19 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Paul O." > wrote in message
> m...
>
>> >Went to the other vet yesterday and he called with the results this
>> >afternoon. Don't have all the info in front of me, he is mailing it all.
>> >But his creatinine which was 2.8 a couple weeks ago from the first
> checkup
>> >is now 2.3.
>
>
> He did tell me that I needed to change his regular diet from
>> >the nutro pouch type food because all the gravy type foods are loaded
> with
>> >carbs, and a pate type food is better.
>
>
> Try to find he likes that has a phosphorus content <.80% (DMB) or 0.20%
> "as
> fed".
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm
>
>
> That's about the jist of it and I
>> >feel better about it. So we'll see how it goes. Thanks.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>
> Thanks for the link. I have that one and sugarcats.com. Wil be looking at
> them trying to decide on what to go with, that I can get locally
> hopefully.
--
Paul O.
My sig line is my disclaimer to any advice given

Absolutely clueless when it comes to cats
Learning more every day, but still clueless