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Wendy
November 30th 05, 12:00 PM
I seem to remember some correlation between UIT and Hairball Lite food but
googled and couldn't find it. It was quite a while ago that I thought I saw
the comments so my memory might be faulty.

My Isabelle has started peeing in the hall again. She undoubtedly has
another UTI. She had one last year and after two different antibiotics it
was cleared up and has been using the box ever since .... until last Sunday.
Someone peed on the bathroom floor. I thought it was Isabelle but didn't see
her doing it so wasn't positive. It wasn't her usual spot and I thought one
of them could be leaving me a message of disapproval as I recently removed a
litter box from in there. With one fewer cat I thought it would be nice to
have some space to move in the too small bathroom and removed the box that
was in there. This morning she peed in the hall and announced herself by
scratching at the closed door she pees by. Think she's trying to tell me
something?

I have changed her diet over the last year and added wet food in the
evening. She's not on prescription diet as the vet said it would be useless
if she was eating any other food to even bother putting her on it. With
these three I have no idea how I'd keep her out of someone else's food. They
are all close enough in size now that the feeding in the box trick wouldn't
work. She seemed to be doing ok on SD regular in the morning and wet in the
evening until this week. The only thing that changed is that I had given he
some SD Hairball Lite because she was doing the hairball cough a lot. The
food worked. She hasn't coughed since I put her on it but now we're back to
peeing in the hall. She was on the hairball food last year when this started
(fall shed with a long-haired cat and all that) so I'm wondering if the food
is a factor in all this.

I'll have the vet on the phone as soon as they open to ask for a collection
kit to get her tested again and for now she's off the HB Lite. I mentioned
that food to the vet last year and he poo pooed the whole thing but there
have been other things he hasn't been very concerned with that has caused me
to question how thorough this vet is any more. He owns the practice
(multi-vet that just went VCA in the last few years) and I'm wondering if
maybe going VCA hasn't put some kind of pressure on him. I've used him for
years and never had cause to doubt his competence before. He was and still
is excellent at keeping you posted about a cat in his care. He always
personally calls even after something as routine as a neutering to tell you
the cat is fine and give you the post op instructions. When my Ralf was in
his care a few years ago, I had to have gotten 6 or so calls from him during
that day to keep me informed. I thought he did everything possible to try to
save Ralf. However, when I asked him recently about Isabelle's hair loss in
her hind quarters he blew it off. I had alarm bells going off when she
started losing the hair back there again - she did that last time she had a
UTI too.

At any rate does it make any sense that the hairball food could trigger a
urinary tract problem? If so what's left is hitting the trash in a hurry.

W

Phil P.
November 30th 05, 07:39 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

>
> My Isabelle has started peeing in the hall again. She undoubtedly has
> another UTI.


That's not necessarily true. Most cats have no clinically observable signs
whatsoever when they have UTI. A UTI in cats can only be diagnosed by
microscopic examination of the urine sediment followed by bacterial culture
of the urine.

Bacterial UTI is rare in cats under 10 because of the high
osmolality and acidity of feline urine. UTIs are more common in older cats
and cats with diabetes because sugar in the urine is an excellent breeding
ground gor bacteria, and in cats with CRF due to dilute urine.
Inappropriate urination is more often than not a symptom of feline
interstitial cystitis (inflammation of the bladder) and/or inflammation of
the urethra and/or crystalluria/urolithiasis.



She had one last year and after two different antibiotics it
> was cleared up and has been using the box ever since ....


FIC is a self-limiting syndrome, so, any medication- even a placebo would
appear to be curative. Some antibiotics have anti-inflammatory properties
which would help ameliorate clinical signs of FIC.




until last Sunday.
> Someone peed on the bathroom floor. I thought it was Isabelle but didn't
see
> her doing it so wasn't positive.


To identify the culprit in a multicat home, give each cat fluorescein test
strips in a #3 gelcap, sequentially, 36 hours apart and exam the urine spot
with black light (Wood's light). Fluorescein urine fluoresces bright green
under a black light- normal urine fluoresces yellow-green. Start with the
usual suspect- you may not have to test the other cats.



> At any rate does it make any sense that the hairball food could trigger a
> urinary tract problem?


Dry or canned? Dry food certainly can exacerbate symptoms of FIC in cats
that are predisposed to it.

Phil

Wendy
November 30th 05, 11:14 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> My Isabelle has started peeing in the hall again. She undoubtedly has
>> another UTI.
>
>
> That's not necessarily true. Most cats have no clinically observable signs
> whatsoever when they have UTI. A UTI in cats can only be diagnosed by
> microscopic examination of the urine sediment followed by bacterial
> culture
> of the urine.
>
> Bacterial UTI is rare in cats under 10 because of the high
> osmolality and acidity of feline urine. UTIs are more common in older
> cats
> and cats with diabetes because sugar in the urine is an excellent breeding
> ground gor bacteria, and in cats with CRF due to dilute urine.
> Inappropriate urination is more often than not a symptom of feline
> interstitial cystitis (inflammation of the bladder) and/or inflammation of
> the urethra and/or crystalluria/urolithiasis.
>
>
>
> She had one last year and after two different antibiotics it
>> was cleared up and has been using the box ever since ....
>
>
> FIC is a self-limiting syndrome, so, any medication- even a placebo would
> appear to be curative. Some antibiotics have anti-inflammatory properties
> which would help ameliorate clinical signs of FIC.
>
>
>
>
> until last Sunday.
>> Someone peed on the bathroom floor. I thought it was Isabelle but didn't
> see
>> her doing it so wasn't positive.
>
>
> To identify the culprit in a multicat home, give each cat fluorescein test
> strips in a #3 gelcap, sequentially, 36 hours apart and exam the urine
> spot
> with black light (Wood's light). Fluorescein urine fluoresces bright
> green
> under a black light- normal urine fluoresces yellow-green. Start with the
> usual suspect- you may not have to test the other cats.
>
>
>
>> At any rate does it make any sense that the hairball food could trigger a
>> urinary tract problem?
>
>
> Dry or canned? Dry food certainly can exacerbate symptoms of FIC in cats
> that are predisposed to it.
>
> Phil
>
>
>

They tested the urine last year and did find bacteria and blood in the
urine - no word about crystals. At that point she was on dry food. Since
then I have added wet food to her diet and severely limited the amount of
dry she gets. This was done to get her to dump the whole lot of excess
weight she had been carrying since before we adopted her as anything else.
It worked BTW. She's now stabilized at a healthy weight (according to the
vet who she recently saw for her shots and checkup) and is much more active.

The Hairball food is dry food.

What makes you think it's FIC and how is that diagnosed and treated?

I'm really not sure how old she is. She was found outside as a stray and
they guessed at her age. Based on that guess she's probably 4 or 5.

I'll be getting a urine sample up to the vet tomorrow - got the collection
kit today.



W

Phil P.
December 1st 05, 02:02 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> They tested the urine last year and did find bacteria and blood in the
> urine - no word about crystals.


What about WBCs? How was the urine collected last year? Since you
mentioned getting a sample with a "collection kit" for tomorrow, I assume
last year's sample was also collected via voiding rather than cystocentesis-
directly from the bladder. Voided urine, especially from females is usually
contaminated with bacteria that normally inhabit the distal and external
urinary tract. Samples obtained via voiding will almost always test
positive for bacteria whether the cat has a UTI or not.

Blood in the urine doesn't mean she has an infection, either. Bleeding can
be caused by mucosal inflammation or by tearing the bladder mucosa from
straining to pee. Inflammation in the bladder causes a nervous sensation
that mimics the feeling of a full bladder. She could be straining to pee
because the nervous impulses are constantly stimulated, so, she feels like
she has to pee whether her bladder is full or empty. There are other causes
of blood in the urine but they don't apply to your cat.


At that point she was on dry food. Since
> then I have added wet food to her diet and severely limited the amount of
> dry she gets. This was done to get her to dump the whole lot of excess
> weight she had been carrying since before we adopted her as anything else.
> It worked BTW. She's now stabilized at a healthy weight (according to the
> vet who she recently saw for her shots and checkup) and is much more
active.
>
> The Hairball food is dry food.
>
> What makes you think it's FIC and how is that diagnosed and treated?


Because the symptoms you mentioned are classic symptoms of FIC- and not a
UTI. FIC is usually self-limiting, so its difficult to tell what treatment
really works. FIC is probably caused by a defect in the glycosaminoglycan
(GAG) layer that coats the bladder wall and allows urine to penetrate the
urothelium and cause inflammation. An *all* canned diet will certainly
ameliorate her symptoms. The increased water intake results in a higher
urine volume and dilutes the noxious substances in the urine. Increased
water intake also results in more frequent urination which reduces the
amount of time that urine is in contact with the bladder wall. Frequent
urination also eliminates tiny crystals before they can grow and irritate
the bladder.

A GAG supplement (Cosequin, Adequan, Elmiron/Cartrophen [pentosan
polysulfate sodium]), might help heal and repair the bladder lining.
Amitriptyline might also help. In addition to reducing stress, amitriptyline
has some analgesic properties.


>
> I'm really not sure how old she is. She was found outside as a stray and
> they guessed at her age. Based on that guess she's probably 4 or 5.


The incidence of UTIs in cats 4-5 years old is about 1%!



>
> I'll be getting a urine sample up to the vet tomorrow - got the collection
> kit today.

If you're planning to have the urine examined for bacteria or cultured,
don't waste your time trying to get a sample. Voided urine makes a poor
sample because its almost always contaminated with bacteria that normally
inhabits the distal urinary tract. Have your vet obtain a sample directly
from her bladder (cystocentesis). I'd bet you donuts to dollars it'll be
sterile!

Phil.

Wendy
December 1st 05, 12:01 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> They tested the urine last year and did find bacteria and blood in the
>> urine - no word about crystals.
>
>
> What about WBCs? How was the urine collected last year? Since you
> mentioned getting a sample with a "collection kit" for tomorrow, I assume
> last year's sample was also collected via voiding rather than
> cystocentesis-
> directly from the bladder. Voided urine, especially from females is
> usually
> contaminated with bacteria that normally inhabit the distal and external
> urinary tract. Samples obtained via voiding will almost always test
> positive for bacteria whether the cat has a UTI or not.
>
> Blood in the urine doesn't mean she has an infection, either. Bleeding can
> be caused by mucosal inflammation or by tearing the bladder mucosa from
> straining to pee. Inflammation in the bladder causes a nervous sensation
> that mimics the feeling of a full bladder. She could be straining to pee
> because the nervous impulses are constantly stimulated, so, she feels like
> she has to pee whether her bladder is full or empty. There are other
> causes
> of blood in the urine but they don't apply to your cat.
>
>
> At that point she was on dry food. Since
>> then I have added wet food to her diet and severely limited the amount of
>> dry she gets. This was done to get her to dump the whole lot of excess
>> weight she had been carrying since before we adopted her as anything
>> else.
>> It worked BTW. She's now stabilized at a healthy weight (according to the
>> vet who she recently saw for her shots and checkup) and is much more
> active.
>>
>> The Hairball food is dry food.
>>
>> What makes you think it's FIC and how is that diagnosed and treated?
>
>
> Because the symptoms you mentioned are classic symptoms of FIC- and not a
> UTI. FIC is usually self-limiting, so its difficult to tell what
> treatment
> really works. FIC is probably caused by a defect in the glycosaminoglycan
> (GAG) layer that coats the bladder wall and allows urine to penetrate the
> urothelium and cause inflammation. An *all* canned diet will certainly
> ameliorate her symptoms. The increased water intake results in a higher
> urine volume and dilutes the noxious substances in the urine. Increased
> water intake also results in more frequent urination which reduces the
> amount of time that urine is in contact with the bladder wall. Frequent
> urination also eliminates tiny crystals before they can grow and irritate
> the bladder.
>
> A GAG supplement (Cosequin, Adequan, Elmiron/Cartrophen [pentosan
> polysulfate sodium]), might help heal and repair the bladder lining.
> Amitriptyline might also help. In addition to reducing stress,
> amitriptyline
> has some analgesic properties.
>

Dang! and I gave away an almost full bottle of Cosequin that I had purchased
for Tigger to a needy old cat with arthritis. Oh well at least the old boy
might be feeling better. He was having considerable pain from what I
understand.


>
>>
>> I'm really not sure how old she is. She was found outside as a stray and
>> they guessed at her age. Based on that guess she's probably 4 or 5.
>
>
> The incidence of UTIs in cats 4-5 years old is about 1%!
>
>
>
>>
>> I'll be getting a urine sample up to the vet tomorrow - got the
>> collection
>> kit today.
>
> If you're planning to have the urine examined for bacteria or cultured,
> don't waste your time trying to get a sample. Voided urine makes a poor
> sample because its almost always contaminated with bacteria that normally
> inhabits the distal urinary tract. Have your vet obtain a sample directly
> from her bladder (cystocentesis). I'd bet you donuts to dollars it'll be
> sterile!
>
> Phil.
>

I thought I had read that the stress of taking the cat to the vet to get a
sample can alter the ph of the urine which can skew the results which is why
the vet has the sample collected at home to begin with. Oh well, whatever.
Voided urine will show the presence of blood right? It's a starting point at
any rate. I need something to back up the fact that I know there is
something up with her. Whatever it was a year ago is back and I need to get
it addressed. I've already aggrivated the cat getting the sample. Might as
well waste my money and get it checked.

The vet also said that if we put her on prescription food it wouldn't work
if she ate any of the other cats' food. Is that true? It's nigh on
impossible to guarantee she won't get any other food at all. She's quite
good at finding the very last piece of food laying around anywhere. If one
of the others spills a piece on the floor she'll find it if Diego doesn't
get to it first.


W

BV>

Phil P.
December 2nd 05, 09:50 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> I thought I had read that the stress of taking the cat to the vet to get a
> sample can alter the ph of the urine which can skew the results which is
why
> the vet has the sample collected at home to begin with.

You're missing the point. If you're looking for a UTI, you shouldn't use
voided urine because its contaminated with bacteria.

Wendy
December 2nd 05, 11:56 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I thought I had read that the stress of taking the cat to the vet to get
>> a
>> sample can alter the ph of the urine which can skew the results which is
> why
>> the vet has the sample collected at home to begin with.
>
> You're missing the point. If you're looking for a UTI, you shouldn't use
> voided urine because its contaminated with bacteria.
>
>
>
I thought you said it was unlikely she had an infection and more likely it
was FIC or I suppose she could have crystals. Well I'll see if they find
anything and go from there. I have no problem taking her up to the vet for a
sterile sample if necessary.

I take it you have no opinion about my original question whether the SD
hairball lite dry food could have anything to do with this flare up of what
ever she has?

W

Phil P.
December 2nd 05, 12:28 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> I thought you said it was unlikely she had an infection and more likely it
> was FIC


That's what I said. But you said "she undoubtedly has another UTI". I
simply pointed out that voided urine is contaminated with bacteria that
normally reside in the distal and external urinary tract and can lead to
false results.


or I suppose she could have crystals. Well I'll see if they find
> anything and go from there. I have no problem taking her up to the vet for
a
> sterile sample if necessary.


Why not just do it the right way the first time?


>
> I take it you have no opinion about my original question whether the SD
> hairball lite dry food could have anything to do with this flare up of
what
> ever she has?

I already answered your question in my first post: "Dry food certainly can
exacerbate symptoms of FIC in cats that are predisposed to it."