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Calvin Rice
December 11th 05, 06:29 PM
My six kittens born on August 7 will be spayed/neutered the week of
February 7.
Six months is the time I have had kittens neutered in the past, and six
months
is the earliest that my vet wants to do it.

My questions are, what is the earliest age at which cats can mate, and
do
cats in the same litter, that have always been intimately together,
tend to
avoid mating with each other, or is a mating impulse among them likely
to
appear before six months?

Among these six, I think only one is femele, though I need to verify a
couple
of them before being positive. Should I separate her from the males at
some
time before they reach the age of six months? That would be very
inconvenient
and anguishing, but I will do it if necessary.

-cr

Candace
December 11th 05, 09:08 PM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> My six kittens born on August 7 will be spayed/neutered the week of
> February 7.
> Six months is the time I have had kittens neutered in the past, and six
> months
> is the earliest that my vet wants to do it.
>
> My questions are, what is the earliest age at which cats can mate, and
> do
> cats in the same litter, that have always been intimately together,
> tend to
> avoid mating with each other, or is a mating impulse among them likely
> to
> appear before six months?
>
> Among these six, I think only one is femele, though I need to verify a
> couple
> of them before being positive. Should I separate her from the males at
> some
> time before they reach the age of six months? That would be very
> inconvenient
> and anguishing, but I will do it if necessary.
>
> -cr

Cats can mate at about 5 months of age, possibly even 4. It depends.
And, yes, they can mate with their littermates and probably will. Most
vets are more than willing to neuter before 6 mos. of age nowadays. I
would think your vet would prefer to do that rather than have more
kittens, who would also be inbred and could have problems resulting
from that, born. You should at least get the females done before then
to avoid this. My current girl kitty went into heat at 5 months old.
I, too, was waiting until she was 6 mos. old to get her spayed. She's
an indoor cat and had no access to unneutered males but I still felt
bad that she had to go through a heat unnecessarily. It's best for
their health to never have a heat.

Candace

Calvin Rice
December 12th 05, 12:19 AM
Candace wrote:
> Cats can mate at about 5 months of age, possibly even 4. It depends.
> And, yes, they can mate with their littermates and probably will. Most
> vets are more than willing to neuter before 6 mos. of age nowadays. ...

Thanks for the information. These six are four months and four days
old today
(18 weeks exactly).

My only other female (nine years old) had already been spayed 2 years
before
I inherited her, so I don't know what the signs of being in heat are.
Are they
so obvious that I would be able to catch her in time to avoid mating,
or
would it already be too late?

The reason my vet says he does not like to neuter before six months is
that it can weaken a cat's immune system, leading to greater chances of
problems later.

When I talked to my vet about it, I was using the word 'neutering' to
refer to both males and females. Later I learned that the word applies
only to males. So my vet may have thought I was asking him only
about neutering males. I will try to get that cleared up very soon.
Maybe he has a different preference concerning spaying females.

At any rate, I will do whatever it takes to prevent inbreeding or any
other
mating involving these kittens.

-cr

NMR
December 12th 05, 01:45 AM
http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/health-care.shtml


scroll down and read about neutering on the above link

Most Vets are either stuck in the ways, uninformed or unwilling to change.
There has been studies about the early neutering and the studies have
positive results.
Here is Phil's sites information he is one of the most informed people out
here and I value his opinion.
http://www.maxshouse.com/spaying_and_neutering.htm
Check the rest of the site out is it most informative.

Our precious who just passed away ( may we see her at the bridge ) at
almost 20 years of age was fixed at 15 weeks when she started showing signs
of going in heat the only thing she had wrong with her is that she got old
fart syndrome near the end. Her brother and sister that both lived to 17
and 18 were fixed at the same time same thing no problems except they got
old and left us. :-( ( till we see them at the bridge)

"Diane" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article . com>,
> "Calvin Rice" > wrote:
>
>> The reason my vet says he does not like to neuter before six months is
>> that it can weaken a cat's immune system, leading to greater chances of
>> problems later.
>
> I hope Phil weighs in on this. I did find:
> A growing number of veterinarians are sterilizing pets between 3-5
> months, so please check with your veterinarian first.
>
> As for heat, yes, it's very obvious (the one time Pudge was in heat,
> she'd jump on the dining room table and roll over back and forth, back
> and forth, yowling and chirping like a maniac), but I'm not sure the
> beginning is obvious enough to you so that you'll catch it in time. I'm
> guessing that a male would get a whiff of smell and behaviour changes
> before you would. He's got the nose to, and he's programmed to.
>
>> When I talked to my vet about it, I was using the word 'neutering' to
>> refer to both males and females. Later I learned that the word applies
>> only to males. So my vet may have thought I was asking him only
>> about neutering males. I will try to get that cleared up very soon.
>> Maybe he has a different preference concerning spaying females.
>
> If you don't want to separate them (which might be stressful for them
> anyway), I think you need to weigh the seemingly minimal risks of early
> spay/neuter against the substantial ones of waiting. Just my two cents.
>
> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/

December 12th 05, 02:48 AM
"It's best for their health to never have a heat."
Candace

Why? I might have thought the opposite. Is it because hormones are
obviously released into their systems? That can be good or bad? In
humans, it's both.

Calvin Rice
December 12th 05, 06:00 AM
These links and posts have been convincing that I need to act right
away, so
I'll call the vet tomorrow. The 18 weeks (4 months 4 days) old female
is a
little smaller than the males. She doesn't usually eat as much as they
do,
though she always has an appetite, and they have a large variety of
food.

The only reason for mentioning this is wondering if faster growing
females
reach fertility quicker than slower growing ones. It would be nice to
at least
wait until after Christmas to have the female spayed. She wont be five
months old until January 7.

-cr

Wendy
December 12th 05, 04:37 PM
"Calvin Rice" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> These links and posts have been convincing that I need to act right
> away, so
> I'll call the vet tomorrow. The 18 weeks (4 months 4 days) old female
> is a
> little smaller than the males. She doesn't usually eat as much as they
> do,
> though she always has an appetite, and they have a large variety of
> food.
>
> The only reason for mentioning this is wondering if faster growing
> females
> reach fertility quicker than slower growing ones. It would be nice to
> at least
> wait until after Christmas to have the female spayed. She wont be five
> months old until January 7.
>
> -cr
>

Around here most vets wait until the cat is 5 lbs. or 6 mos. which ever
comes first.

If you decide to get your girl spayed now make sure the vet you select does
early spays regularly and is experienced working on the little ones.

Calvin Rice
December 13th 05, 01:26 AM
Wendy wrote:
> If you decide to get your girl spayed now make sure the vet you select does
> early spays regularly and is experienced working on the little ones.

The cat is only 4 months and 5 days old, but since people have said
that she
may go into heat at 5 months, I'm looking at the week after Christmas
for
hopefully spaying.

But I wont change vets for this purpose. If my vet refuses to spay
before
the first heat then I will isolate her from the others from just before
probable
heat until six months. That will be agony for everyone, but better
than
changing vets at this point.

I'm still not sure when is the point at which the cat should be either
spayed or isolated. I really would like to wait until right after
Christmas
if that is reasonable. On December 27, she will be four months and
20 days old.

-cr

IBen Getiner
December 13th 05, 12:46 PM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> My six kittens born on August 7 will be spayed/neutered the week of
> February 7.
> Six months is the time I have had kittens neutered in the past, and six
> months
> is the earliest that my vet wants to do it.
>
> My questions are, what is the earliest age at which cats can mate,

I'm sorry, but these are the most ridiculous questions that I've ever
read in any NG anywhere.
<I can't help myself... I've got to be sarcastic....>


> and
> do
> cats in the same litter, that have always been intimately together,
> tend to
> avoid mating with each other, or is a mating impulse among them likely
> to
> appear before six months?
>
>

No, azzhole... They have a strong moral code instilled by devout
affiliation with powerful religious and nurtured family teachings that
stretch back thousands of ****ing years, so they 'won't mess around
with siss'. Even if they're father was an 'alley cat'. LOL...!


IBen

Wendy
December 13th 05, 02:36 PM
"Calvin Rice" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wendy wrote:
>> If you decide to get your girl spayed now make sure the vet you select
>> does
>> early spays regularly and is experienced working on the little ones.
>
> The cat is only 4 months and 5 days old, but since people have said
> that she
> may go into heat at 5 months, I'm looking at the week after Christmas
> for
> hopefully spaying.
>
> But I wont change vets for this purpose. If my vet refuses to spay
> before
> the first heat then I will isolate her from the others from just before
> probable
> heat until six months. That will be agony for everyone, but better
> than
> changing vets at this point.
>
> I'm still not sure when is the point at which the cat should be either
> spayed or isolated. I really would like to wait until right after
> Christmas
> if that is reasonable. On December 27, she will be four months and
> 20 days old.
>
> -cr
>
How much does she weigh?

Calvin Rice
December 13th 05, 02:39 PM
IBen Getiner wrote:
> I'm sorry, ...

No problem. Have a nice day.

-cr

Calvin Rice
December 13th 05, 05:23 PM
Ok, this is the plan, for anyone interested. I talked to my vet, and
he said
he has no problem with spaying the female at five months, and he
prefers to go
ahead and neuter the males at that time too.

The female will be spayed on January 3, and the males will be neutered
on
January 5. If the female shows signs of heat before that week, we will
schedule an immediate spaying.

The vet doubts that the female will begin a cycle before five months,
though
he said it does happen. He also said that larger females generally
start
at a younger age than smaller ones, and mine is the smallest cat in the
litter.

About what he told me previously concerning early spay/neuter weakening
immune systems, he said he was referring to very early spay/neuter
that shelters often do.

-cr

Wendy
December 13th 05, 11:44 PM
"Calvin Rice" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Ok, this is the plan, for anyone interested. I talked to my vet, and
> he said
> he has no problem with spaying the female at five months, and he
> prefers to go
> ahead and neuter the males at that time too.
>
> The female will be spayed on January 3, and the males will be neutered
> on
> January 5. If the female shows signs of heat before that week, we will
> schedule an immediate spaying.
>
> The vet doubts that the female will begin a cycle before five months,
> though
> he said it does happen. He also said that larger females generally
> start
> at a younger age than smaller ones, and mine is the smallest cat in the
> litter.
>
> About what he told me previously concerning early spay/neuter weakening
> immune systems, he said he was referring to very early spay/neuter
> that shelters often do.
>
> -cr
>

Sounds like a plan.

You could always start with the girl and then spread out the neutering over
a little time if it's financially easier..... once your girl is done you do
have a little time to play with.

W

IBen Getiner
December 14th 05, 08:03 AM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> IBen Getiner wrote:
> > I'm sorry, ...
>
> No problem.

Good! I didn't think so. But no matter... YOU just keep on trying to
figure out the difference between kats and people. You gotta long way
to traverse there, bub...


IBen

-L.
December 14th 05, 10:17 AM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> About what he told me previously concerning early spay/neuter weakening
> immune systems, he said he was referring to very early spay/neuter
> that shelters often do.

Well, he's wrong. There is absolutely NO evidence that early
spay/neuter has any harmful effects. Ask him for a journal reference
for his statements. He won't produce one because there isn't one.

I am glad you will be getting these kittens neutered asap. As long as
they weigh 2lbs or more, they can be neutered safely.
-L.

Calvin Rice
December 14th 05, 03:07 PM
IBen Getiner wrote:
> Good! I didn't think so. But no matter... YOU just keep on trying to
> figure out the difference between kats and people. You gotta long way
> to traverse there, bub...

Thanks for continuing to give me the benefit of your wisdom and advice.

-cr

Calvin Rice
December 14th 05, 03:09 PM
Wendy wrote:
> You could always start with the girl and then spread out the neutering over
> a little time if it's financially easier..... once your girl is done you do
> have a little time to play with.

The vet prefers the way we planned it, and in this case it doesn't
matter
whether the expense comes all at once or spread out.

-cr

NMR
December 14th 05, 05:36 PM
I believe it is early as 7 weeks that can perform the procedure
and ignore IBEN he is a moron that just try's to stir up [email protected]


"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Calvin Rice wrote:
>> About what he told me previously concerning early spay/neuter weakening
>> immune systems, he said he was referring to very early spay/neuter
>> that shelters often do.
>
> Well, he's wrong. There is absolutely NO evidence that early
> spay/neuter has any harmful effects. Ask him for a journal reference
> for his statements. He won't produce one because there isn't one.
>
> I am glad you will be getting these kittens neutered asap. As long as
> they weigh 2lbs or more, they can be neutered safely.
> -L.
>

Ron Herfurth
December 14th 05, 07:10 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Calvin Rice" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Ok, this is the plan, for anyone interested. I talked to my vet, and
> > he said
> > he has no problem with spaying the female at five months, and he
> > prefers to go
> > ahead and neuter the males at that time too.
> >
> > The female will be spayed on January 3, and the males will be neutered
> > on
> > January 5. If the female shows signs of heat before that week, we will
> > schedule an immediate spaying.
> >
> > The vet doubts that the female will begin a cycle before five months,
> > though
> > he said it does happen. He also said that larger females generally
> > start
> > at a younger age than smaller ones, and mine is the smallest cat in the
> > litter.
> >
> > About what he told me previously concerning early spay/neuter weakening
> > immune systems, he said he was referring to very early spay/neuter
> > that shelters often do.
> >
> > -cr
> >
>
> Sounds like a plan.
>
> You could always start with the girl and then spread out the neutering
over
> a little time if it's financially easier..... once your girl is done you
do
> have a little time to play with.
>
> W

or ...
If they are indoor only it should be safe to shorten the guys first;
Ron's Rule-Of -Thumb : If you neuter a male before he starts spraying he'll
never start
but if you neuter him after he starts spraying he'll never stop.

YMMV
ron

Calvin Rice
December 15th 05, 03:01 AM
Ron Herfurth wrote:
> ... If you neuter a male before he starts spraying he'll
> never start but if you neuter him after he starts spraying
> he'll never stop.

My data on the subject:

A cat neutered at 8 months had started spraying but he stopped.
A stray neutered after adulthood sprayed very much less, but has never
really stopped.
Two cats neutered at 6 months never started spraying.

These males will be neutered at 5 months so I don't expect any
spraying.

-cr

IBen Getiner
December 15th 05, 05:49 AM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> IBen Getiner wrote:
> > Good! I didn't think so. But no matter... YOU just keep on trying to
> > figure out the difference between kats and people. You gotta long way
> > to traverse there, bub...
>
> Thanks for continuing to give me the benefit of your wisdom and advice.
>
> -cr

Really...? How about to the point where you wish to your heart and soul
and with every fibre in your being that I were dead?


IBen

Calvin Rice
December 15th 05, 04:02 PM
IBen Getiner wrote:
> cr wrote:
> > Thanks for continuing to give me the benefit of your wisdom
> > and advice.
> Really...? How about to the point where you wish to your
> heart and soul and with every fibre in your being that I were
> dead?

Well, facing the truth and heeding good advice are not often
easy, but if you have either one to offer, then go for it.

-cr

IBen Getiner
December 16th 05, 10:41 AM
Calvin Rice wrote:
> IBen Getiner wrote:
> > cr wrote:
> > > Thanks for continuing to give me the benefit of your wisdom
> > > and advice.
> > Really...? How about to the point where you wish to your
> > heart and soul and with every fibre in your being that I were
> > dead?
>
> Well, facing the truth and heeding good advice are not often
> easy, but if you have either one to offer, then go for it.
>
> -cr


Then... go back and readdress my first post on your idiotic topic,
Cal... Since you never did.
Your entire premise for this thread is NUTTY. Explain to me WHY you
would think for one second that kitties from the same little would not
mate with one another. To the point of having to ask about it, I mean..
How stupid can you get? What kind of question was that? Were you for
real, or is this just a prank...? Tell IBen ALLL about it, Cal....


IBen Getiner

whitershadeofpale
December 16th 05, 02:08 PM
IBen Getiner wrote:

> Then... go back and readdress my first post on your idiotic topic,
> Cal... Since you never did.
> Your entire premise for this thread is NUTTY. Explain to me WHY you
> would think for one second that kitties from the same little would not
> mate with one another. To the point of having to ask about it, I mean..
> How stupid can you get? What kind of question was that? Were you for
> real, or is this just a prank...? Tell IBen ALLL about it, Cal....
>
>
> IBen Getiner

many animals do not practice incest
it is a valid question!

Calvin Rice
December 16th 05, 02:12 PM
IBen Getiner wrote:
> ... Explain to me WHY you
> would think for one second that kitties from the same little would not
> mate with one another. ...

I was pretty sure that older cats from the same litter would mate,
but my concern was whether or not they would mate before the age
of six months, the planned time for spaying and neutering.

It was not that I thought they had religious concerns about incest,
or that I thought animals had any concept of siblinghood, but it
was conceivable to me that there could be a built-in instinct
against it at such an early age. There are, after all, many instincts
being expressed by both mother and kittens during the first few
months.

That's not to claim that my unsureness was correct, but it doesn't
seem to me all that nutty to simply ask about it. Wishful thinking
also might have had a part in my asking, because it certainly
would have been nice not to have to worry about it before the
planned time of spaying/neutering, six months being the time my
vet had said he wanted to do it.

He has now changed to five months as a result of concerns I
acquired from this thread, and talked to him about.

I hope this explanation is sufficient.

-cr

Tony P.
December 17th 05, 09:46 PM
In article . com>,
says...
> Calvin Rice wrote:
> > My six kittens born on August 7 will be spayed/neutered the week of
> > February 7.
> > Six months is the time I have had kittens neutered in the past, and six
> > months
> > is the earliest that my vet wants to do it.
> >
> > My questions are, what is the earliest age at which cats can mate, and
> > do
> > cats in the same litter, that have always been intimately together,
> > tend to
> > avoid mating with each other, or is a mating impulse among them likely
> > to
> > appear before six months?
> >
> > Among these six, I think only one is femele, though I need to verify a
> > couple
> > of them before being positive. Should I separate her from the males at
> > some
> > time before they reach the age of six months? That would be very
> > inconvenient
> > and anguishing, but I will do it if necessary.
> >
> > -cr
>
> Cats can mate at about 5 months of age, possibly even 4. It depends.
> And, yes, they can mate with their littermates and probably will. Most
> vets are more than willing to neuter before 6 mos. of age nowadays. I
> would think your vet would prefer to do that rather than have more
> kittens, who would also be inbred and could have problems resulting
> from that, born. You should at least get the females done before then
> to avoid this. My current girl kitty went into heat at 5 months old.
> I, too, was waiting until she was 6 mos. old to get her spayed. She's
> an indoor cat and had no access to unneutered males but I still felt
> bad that she had to go through a heat unnecessarily. It's best for
> their health to never have a heat.
>
> Candace

I recall they were able to do it as early as six weeks in some cases.

But regards inbreeding - it's a 25% chance that recessives will be
reinforced and result in deformation.

Calvin Rice
December 17th 05, 10:57 PM
Tony P. wrote:
> But regards inbreeding - it's a 25% chance that recessives will be
> reinforced and result in deformation.

Just to reitterate, there will be no inbreeding in this case. All six
kittens
will be spay/neutered at 5 months (Jan 3 & 5), and if the female shows
signs
of heat before that, she will be spayed immediately.

-cr