PDA

View Full Version : Cat in early kidney disease


Corey Kaye
February 7th 06, 02:47 AM
Ginger is a 6 year old orange and white spayed female. She's been inside
all her life with me, but was born in a barn. Tested FIV/FeLV negative,
vaccinated on schedule. I got her from my hay guy, and I believe that she's
HIGHLY inbred--oddly shaped front legs, teeth missing (and have always
been), vision problems, not very smart, etc.

When she went in to have a tooth extracted about two weeks ago--all of her
other teeth looked GREAT, just one tooth that was dead-- the basic labs
showed elevated BUN and creatinine. A urine check showed blood and rods.
We treated for 10 days with clavimox, and pulled another creatinine.
Slightly lower, but still high. (I believe initially it was 37.9, now it's
37.7? Don't remember the exact numbers.) There was still slight blood in
the urine on a recheck. Also, my vet palpated her kidneys while she was
under for her tooth extraction, and said her kidneys were SMALL--about half
normal size. I'm not too surprised, considering her other physical issues.

Ginger drinks and eats well, and acts like a happy kitty. She certainly
doesn't act like a kitty with kidney disease, and I'd like to keep it that
way.

I have 7 cats, and I feed Innova. It's 36% protein. I'm planning on
filling the feeders that Ginger eats at with Innova low cal, which is 26%
protein and also contains cranberries. My vet and I have discussed giving
Ginger 100cc's of sub-q fluids once a week, so I'll start that next week. I
am also supplementing Ginger daily with Finish Line, which has glucosamine,
Vitamin C, MSM and Yucca.

I can't talk this kitty into eating wet food, and I'd really like to avoid
the prescription diets--I have one kitty that needs Z/D, and her condition
is just not nearly as good as the other cats. I don't think I could
convince Ginger to eat a prescription diet, anyway. My Z/D cat knows to
come and ask to be fed, but Ginger...well, she's not so smart.

Is there anything else I should be doing for this kitty?

Thanks,

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 7th 06, 03:39 AM
> I'm planning on filling the feeders that Ginger eats at with Innova low cal, which is 26%
>protein and also contains cranberries.
>I can't talk this kitty into eating wet food, and I'd really like to avoid
>the prescription diets--I have one kitty that needs Z/D, and her condition
>is just not nearly as good as the other cats. I don't think I could
>convince Ginger to eat a prescription diet, anyway.

Innova food is not designed to help a cat with kidney disease and if the
cranberries are in there to acidify the urine, that is not good. A cat with
kidney disease should not have a food which produces an acidic urine p/h.
The kidney diets produce an alkaline urine p/h. They also are reduced in
protein, phosphorus and sodium which helps the kidneys and increased in
omega-3's. Feeding a regular food to a cat with kidney disease can
accelerate the disease. At least give the foods a try; there are many to
choose from at the vet's. You may want to give the canned a try too; you
never know; she might start eating it due to the fact that they have extra
fat in them to provide more calories as cats suffering from kidney disease
sometimes can get quite skinny.

I have a 13 year old cat who was diagnosed at age 9 and her numbers are still
the same. I feed her Hill's k/d "with chicken" canned food and Medi-Cal (IVD
in the States) dry food. I can't feed her Hill's dry food because she has
always had a problem with those hard ball-shaped kibbles; the Medi-Cal is
star-shaped and thin and seem softer to break.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Corey Kaye
February 7th 06, 04:04 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Innova food is not designed to help a cat with kidney disease and if
> the cranberries are in there to acidify the urine, that is not good.
> A cat with kidney disease should not have a food which produces an
> acidic urine p/h. The kidney diets produce an alkaline urine p/h.
> They also are reduced in protein, phosphorus and sodium which helps
> the kidneys and increased in omega-3's. Feeding a regular food to a
> cat with kidney disease can accelerate the disease. At least give
> the foods a try; there are many to choose from at the vet's.

Unfortunately, with 7 cats, I have to compromise. Can you reccomend a
ultra-premium food good for a cat that is just on the edge of kidney
disease?

> You may
> want to give the canned a try too; you never know; she might start
> eating it due to the fact that they have extra fat in them to provide
> more calories as cats suffering from kidney disease sometimes can get
> quite skinny.

I tried canned for about 2 weeks after her tooth extraction. Ginger would
eat about two bites, and then leave. I hoped that she would get used to it,
and eat more, but that never happened. I even tried locking her in the
bathroom with the canned food, but she refused to eat it :( She's holding
her weight quite well, and I probably wouldn't even consider her a "kidney
cat" if the labs didn't show some irregularity.

> I have a 13 year old cat who was diagnosed at age 9 and her numbers
> are still the same. I feed her Hill's k/d "with chicken" canned food
> and Medi-Cal (IVD in the States) dry food. I can't feed her Hill's
> dry food because she has always had a problem with those hard
> ball-shaped kibbles; the Medi-Cal is star-shaped and thin and seem
> softer to break.

I recall trying the IVD with my IBD cat (who now eats Z/D.) She refused to
even go near it.

It just can't be an easy answer, can it?

Corey

February 7th 06, 08:36 PM
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:04:10 -0700, "Corey Kaye"
> wrote:

>Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
>
>> Innova food is not designed to help a cat with kidney disease and if
>> the cranberries are in there to acidify the urine, that is not good.
>> A cat with kidney disease should not have a food which produces an
>> acidic urine p/h. The kidney diets produce an alkaline urine p/h.
>> They also are reduced in protein, phosphorus and sodium which helps
>> the kidneys and increased in omega-3's. Feeding a regular food to a
>> cat with kidney disease can accelerate the disease. At least give
>> the foods a try; there are many to choose from at the vet's.
>
>Unfortunately, with 7 cats, I have to compromise. Can you reccomend a
>ultra-premium food good for a cat that is just on the edge of kidney
>disease?
>
Corey,

I'm sorry to hear about your cat. I have 9 cats on various diets, so
it *is* possible to do it -- just takes a little work and a lot of
supervision.

I checked into the Hill's booklet, and opted for g/d for my CRF cat,
Cosmo. It is good for cats with heart problems, and is (I believe)
used more for cats in earlier stages of CRF. You can just feed your
cat the dry, and add water to it if your cat will eat it that way.
It's worth a try.

>> You may
>> want to give the canned a try too; you never know; she might start
>> eating it due to the fact that they have extra fat in them to provide
>> more calories as cats suffering from kidney disease sometimes can get
>> quite skinny.
>
>I tried canned for about 2 weeks after her tooth extraction. Ginger would
>eat about two bites, and then leave. I hoped that she would get used to it,
>and eat more, but that never happened. I even tried locking her in the
>bathroom with the canned food, but she refused to eat it :( She's holding
>her weight quite well, and I probably wouldn't even consider her a "kidney
>cat" if the labs didn't show some irregularity.
>
>> I have a 13 year old cat who was diagnosed at age 9 and her numbers
>> are still the same. I feed her Hill's k/d "with chicken" canned food
>> and Medi-Cal (IVD in the States) dry food. I can't feed her Hill's
>> dry food because she has always had a problem with those hard
>> ball-shaped kibbles; the Medi-Cal is star-shaped and thin and seem
>> softer to break.
>
>I recall trying the IVD with my IBD cat (who now eats Z/D.) She refused to
>even go near it.
>
>It just can't be an easy answer, can it?

It's never easy, but I'm sure you'll do your best for your cat. Cosmo
was diagnosed with a heart murmur and CRF six years ago this May, and
he is still with us.

Best of luck to you.

>
>Corey
>
Ginger-lyn

Home Pages:
http://www.moonsummer.com
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy)
http://www.movieanimals.bravehost.com/ (The Violence Against
Animals in Movies Website)

Anna via CatKB.com
February 7th 06, 10:57 PM
>(I believe initially it was 37.9, now it's 37.7? Don't remember the exact numbers.)
>am also supplementing Ginger daily with Finish Line, which has glucosamine,
>Vitamin C, MSM and Yucca.

Are those lab numbers from a US lab? My cat is 3 when I checked on the US
lab chart at felinecrf.com. Or is your's International?

Careful about the supplements - check for phosphorus in them; you don't want
to add extra. Also, I'm not sure if she should be having lots of vitamin C
as it may be acidic. If you are feeding a commercial food, there is no need
for supplements; in fact, some may be harmful (vitamin or mineral overload)
or simply useless and a waste of money. You may want to discuss this with
your vet.


Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 12:35 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Are those lab numbers from a US lab? My cat is 3 when I checked on
> the US lab chart at felinecrf.com. Or is your's International?

Ah, it must have been 3.9 and 3.7. Not in the 30's ;)

> Careful about the supplements - check for phosphorus in them; you
> don't want to add extra. Also, I'm not sure if she should be having
> lots of vitamin C as it may be acidic. If you are feeding a
> commercial food, there is no need for supplements; in fact, some may
> be harmful (vitamin or mineral overload) or simply useless and a
> waste of money. You may want to discuss this with your vet.

I HAVE discussed this with my vet :) He recommended this supplement for
cystitis.

Corey

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 12:48 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Excellent info at both of these sites. Personally I would recommend
> Hill's Science Diet; their foods are not excessive in phosphorus. My
> 14 year old cat has been on it her whole life and is healthy and my
> 7.5 year old was switched to it after he suffered a UTI and blockage
> on another company's food. That was 6 years ago and he's never had a
> recurrance. I wish I could have raised my 13 year old (the one who
> was diagnosed with kidney disease at 9) on it but as I stated she has
> trouble with those hard round ball-type foods.

Are you refering to just the regular Science Diet for adult cats?

Innova Cat Lite has less protein, and only slightly higher phos (0.9 as
opposed to 0.7) Science Diets first three ingredients are chicken
by-product meal, ground whole grain corn, and brewers rice. Innova's are
turkey, chicken and ground barley.

The k/d had slightly less protein than the Innova (24% vs 26%) and half the
phos (0.45 vs 0.9) but, god--look at what's IN it. Brewers rice, corn
gluten meal, pork fat. Gross. As my vet has no concern with the Innova
Lite, I think I'll just stick with that until he advises me to change. :)

Corey

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 12:55 AM
wrote:

> I'm sorry to hear about your cat. I have 9 cats on various diets, so
> it *is* possible to do it -- just takes a little work and a lot of
> supervision.

How do you do it? I free feed all the cats, and have class during the day.
There's no way I can supervise all the time.

Juliet comes and asks to be fed when she needs her z/d (she has us well
trained ;) but Ginger just isn't like that.

Corey

Spot
February 8th 06, 01:10 AM
Your best bet to give her a good quality of life is to change the diet like
your vet suggest. This is something that has to be managed properly or she
won't be around long.

Celeste


"Corey Kaye" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ginger is a 6 year old orange and white spayed female. She's been inside
> all her life with me, but was born in a barn. Tested FIV/FeLV negative,
> vaccinated on schedule. I got her from my hay guy, and I believe that
> she's
> HIGHLY inbred--oddly shaped front legs, teeth missing (and have always
> been), vision problems, not very smart, etc.
>
> When she went in to have a tooth extracted about two weeks ago--all of her
> other teeth looked GREAT, just one tooth that was dead-- the basic labs
> showed elevated BUN and creatinine. A urine check showed blood and rods.
> We treated for 10 days with clavimox, and pulled another creatinine.
> Slightly lower, but still high. (I believe initially it was 37.9, now
> it's
> 37.7? Don't remember the exact numbers.) There was still slight blood in
> the urine on a recheck. Also, my vet palpated her kidneys while she was
> under for her tooth extraction, and said her kidneys were SMALL--about
> half
> normal size. I'm not too surprised, considering her other physical
> issues.
>
> Ginger drinks and eats well, and acts like a happy kitty. She certainly
> doesn't act like a kitty with kidney disease, and I'd like to keep it that
> way.
>
> I have 7 cats, and I feed Innova. It's 36% protein. I'm planning on
> filling the feeders that Ginger eats at with Innova low cal, which is 26%
> protein and also contains cranberries. My vet and I have discussed giving
> Ginger 100cc's of sub-q fluids once a week, so I'll start that next week.
> I
> am also supplementing Ginger daily with Finish Line, which has
> glucosamine,
> Vitamin C, MSM and Yucca.
>
> I can't talk this kitty into eating wet food, and I'd really like to avoid
> the prescription diets--I have one kitty that needs Z/D, and her condition
> is just not nearly as good as the other cats. I don't think I could
> convince Ginger to eat a prescription diet, anyway. My Z/D cat knows to
> come and ask to be fed, but Ginger...well, she's not so smart.
>
> Is there anything else I should be doing for this kitty?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Corey
>
>
>

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 01:13 AM
Spot wrote:

> Your best bet to give her a good quality of life is to change the
> diet like your vet suggest. This is something that has to be managed
> properly or she won't be around long.

?

I'm following my vet's advice to the letter. He approves of feeding Innova
Lite.

I'm curious why you think I'm ignoring my vet's advice.

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 01:24 AM
>I'm following my vet's advice to the letter. He approves of feeding Innova
>Lite.
>I'm curious why you think I'm ignoring my vet's advice.


Probably because it is so strange for a vet to recommend Innova. For kidney
disease vets recommend Hill's, IVD, Purina, Waltham, Royal Canin - all
products which are made to treat kidney disease.

I'm a little confused now too - your vet recommended that supplement for
cystitis? Did he/she say why it would be good for that? Also, cystitis and
kidney disease are two different things.

Perhaps it's time for a second opinion.

Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Anna via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 01:39 AM
>Innova Cat Lite has less protein, and only slightly higher phos (0.9 as
>opposed to 0.7) Science Diets first three ingredients are chicken
>by-product meal, ground whole grain corn, and brewers rice. Innova's are
>turkey, chicken and ground barley.
>The k/d had slightly less protein than the Innova (24% vs 26%) and half the
>phos (0.45 vs 0.9) but, god--look at what's IN it. Brewers rice, corn
>gluten meal, pork fat. Gross. As my vet has no concern with the Innova
>Lite, I think I'll just stick with that until he advises me to change. :)

You are going by the "Guaranteed Analysis" on the bag. That does not truly
show the exact amounts of the nutrients in the food. You must call Innova
for the "dry matter" of their food; then compare it to Hill's. Also, you are
looking at ingredients. What you should be looking at are *nutrients*
(phosphorus, calcium, potassium, sodium, etc.). The lower protein kidney
foods have to have lower amounts of meat in them due to the fact that they
must be made to have a lower amount of protein and phosphorus. Here's
another website for you if you would like to read about pet foods and
nutrients - http:\\www.petdiets.com. By the way, there is nothing wrong with
chicken by-product meal in Hill's - it is white and dark meat and viscera
(liver, heart, etc). That is very nutritious for animals. Pork fat is just
animal fat - no different from Innova using chicken fat.


Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 01:57 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Probably because it is so strange for a vet to recommend Innova. For
> kidney disease vets recommend Hill's, IVD, Purina, Waltham, Royal
> Canin - all products which are made to treat kidney disease.

We spoke about the protein, phosphorus, etc content of Innova compared to
the kidney diets, and he felt that the very, very slight differences were
not an issue. He also knows I loathe to feed anything but ultra-premium
food. I'll feed Hill's when I have to--Juliet has IBD and needs z/d. Of
course, her coat isn't nearly as nice as the other cats, and she mats quite
a bit more.

> I'm a little confused now too - your vet recommended that supplement
> for cystitis? Did he/she say why it would be good for that? Also,
> cystitis and kidney disease are two different things.

Glucosamine is good for cystitis. I'm aware they're two different issues,
and so is my vet. The cystisis diagnosis was made after we retested her
urine after a course of Clavimox for a bladder infection. The urine was
completely normal except for blood. A radiograph showed no stones. So,
idiopathic cystisis

Here's a website that talks about the role of glycosaminoglycan in the
bladder and supplementing GAG's.

http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/Articles/cat_cystitis.htm

> Perhaps it's time for a second opinion.

Why? <confused> I appreciate your opinion, but I don't understand why you
think my vet is telling me to do the wrong thing.

Corey

JimBob via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 02:06 AM
>We spoke about the protein, phosphorus, etc content of Innova compared to
>the kidney diets, and he felt that the very, very slight differences were
>not an issue. He also knows I loathe to feed anything but ultra-premium
>food. I'll feed Hill's when I have to--Juliet has IBD and needs z/d. Of
>course, her coat isn't nearly as nice as the other cats, and she mats quite
>a bit more.
>Why? <confused> I appreciate your opinion, but I don't understand why you
>think my vet is telling me to do the wrong thing.

I'm just shocked that a vet would say it's okay to feed a regular food to a
crf cat - that's why. Her creatinine is even higher than my cat's and my cat
is eating kidney food. If you feel that you absolutely can't feed her kidney
food, then at least try and feed her a food that is low in phosphorus - here
is a chart to check out. http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. You
can read about phosphorus at those crf sites I gave you.
Also, if your vet is going by the "Guaranteed Analysis" on the bags, that is
not the proper way to compare.


Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 02:12 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> You are going by the "Guaranteed Analysis" on the bag. That does not
> truly show the exact amounts of the nutrients in the food. You must
> call Innova for the "dry matter" of their food; then compare it to

Ah, hadn't thought of that! I sent off an email to Natura. It'll be
interesting to see the difference.

> Hill's. Also, you are looking at ingredients. What you should be
> looking at are *nutrients* (phosphorus, calcium, potassium, sodium,
> etc.). The lower protein kidney foods have to have lower amounts of
> meat in them due to the fact that they must be made to have a lower
> amount of protein and phosphorus. Here's another website for you if
> you would like to read about pet foods and nutrients -
> http:\\www.petdiets.com. By the way, there is nothing wrong with

Interesting website! Thanks!

> chicken by-product meal in Hill's - it is white and dark meat and
> viscera (liver, heart, etc). That is very nutritious for animals.

I realize this is a biased source, but from www.naturapet.com:

Chicken byproduct meal consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of
the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs,
and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might
occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

Chicken byproduct meal is an inconsistent ingredient because of the multiple
organs used, their constantly changing proportions, and their questionable
nutritional value. Chicken byproduct meal is much less expensive and less
digestible than chicken meal.

> Pork fat is just animal fat - no different from Innova using chicken
> fat.

But Innova doesn't have it in the top three ingredients ;)

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 02:24 AM
>Chicken byproduct meal consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of
>the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs,
>and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might
>occur unavoidably in good processing practices.
>> Pork fat is just animal fat - no different from Innova using chicken
>> fat.
>But Innova doesn't have it in the top three ingredients ;)

Yes a company can use those kind of byproducts if they want but Hill's
doesn't. You can call them or email them if you like (number is on your z/d
bag). Pork fat is in the top 3 ingredients in k/d because the kidney foods
are made to be high in calories - the fat being in the top of the ingredient
list means there is a lot of it - in order to make it high in calories cause
crf cats are sometimes underweight.

Anna
(Sorry if the last monikor confused you (JimBob). There are two of us
sending questions/advice on this computer and I forgot to change his siggy).

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 02:30 AM
JimBob via CatKB.com wrote:

> I'm just shocked that a vet would say it's okay to feed a regular
> food to a crf cat - that's why. Her creatinine is even higher than
> my cat's and my cat is eating kidney food. If you feel that you
> absolutely can't feed her kidney food, then at least try and feed her
> a food that is low in phosphorus - here is a chart to check out.
> http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm. You can read about
> phosphorus at those crf sites I gave you.
> Also, if your vet is going by the "Guaranteed Analysis" on the bags,
> that is not the proper way to compare.

Great site!

But Innova lite isn't *that* different than the kidney diets. It's 16th out
of 53 in the "Natural Cat Food" list. So it's not like my vet is
recommending that I feed something like Innova EVO (which is 52 on that
list.)

I went looking for Wysong Synorgon, but can't find it on the website.
Perhaps they discontinued it?

The reason I'm so reluctant to feed a grain-based food is my cats look and
act SO much better on the Innova than, say, Iams. They're teeth look great,
and, except for Ginger, my vet always remarks on how excellent they look.
Even Ginger looks and acts fantastic, but her labs show that raised
creatinine.

Corey

Corey Kaye
February 8th 06, 02:34 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Yes a company can use those kind of byproducts if they want but Hill's
> doesn't. You can call them or email them if you like (number is on
> your z/d bag). Pork fat is in the top 3 ingredients in k/d because

So there are different types of chicken meal by-products? Interesting!

> the kidney foods are made to be high in calories - the fat being in
> the top of the ingredient list means there is a lot of it - in order
> to make it high in calories cause crf cats are sometimes underweight.

Ginger is in very good weight. Does that make a difference in what I should
be feeding her?

> (Sorry if the last monikor confused you (JimBob). There are two of us
> sending questions/advice on this computer and I forgot to change his
> siggy).

Ha, no problem :)

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 03:08 AM
Why not at least give the IVD Modified Protein a try - it would be fattier
than the one your IBD cat tried so she might like it; also, just because that
cat didn't like it doesn't mean Ginger won't. Mix just a *little* of the
new food into her regular food and *slowly* add more and more every day until
that is all that is in her bowl. If it's a no-go, then Royal Canin Persian
30 formula on that chart is lower in phosphorus and it's designed for
persians who are prone to calcium oxalate stones which means it will not
acidify the urine. Newman's Own shows on that chart as lower in phos. than
Innova too but just like Innova, it will probably keep the urine p/h acid as
they are both made for young cats. Ultimately it's up to you as to what you
want to feed her; after all she's your little kitty, we can only make
suggestions. You should really go through that felinecrf.org and felinecrf.
com site thoroughly and then decide - the info. you can learn on there is
amazing; it really helped me.


Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Ryan Robbins
February 8th 06, 12:56 PM
"JimBob via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> I'm just shocked that a vet would say it's okay to feed a regular food to
> a
> crf cat - that's why.

Although prescription food is best, it's more important that the cat
continue eating, and that means giving what the cat wants. I freaked out
when my cat stopped eating her prescription food. Then I realized she had to
eat something, so I offered her regular dry food. She began eating again.
Eventually I was able to put her back on the prescription food. My vet told
me that it's more important for the cat to eat than anything.

Right now my cat isn't eating the prescription food, so I'm giving her
regular food until her appetite improves.

It is NOT bad to feed regular food and treats to a cat that won't eat
prescription food.

Anna via CatKB.com
February 8th 06, 07:14 PM
>It is NOT bad to feed regular food and treats to a cat that won't eat
>prescription food.

Yes, I agree, if a cat won't eat prescription food anything is better than
nothing. But this cat has not been given prescription food to try yet.


Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

February 8th 06, 07:57 PM
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:55:49 -0700, "Corey Kaye"
> wrote:

wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to hear about your cat. I have 9 cats on various diets, so
>> it *is* possible to do it -- just takes a little work and a lot of
>> supervision.
>
>How do you do it? I free feed all the cats, and have class during the day.
>There's no way I can supervise all the time.
>
>Juliet comes and asks to be fed when she needs her z/d (she has us well
>trained ;) but Ginger just isn't like that.
>
>Corey
>
It isn't easy, that's for sure. I stopped free-feeding when they had
to go on different diets, so I feed them twice a day (except the
kittens, who are in a separate room and are free-feeding until they
are fixed and let out). I have a large carrier that I put Brando in,
because he is a former feral and will go after food wherever it is.
Trill is the only other major problem, so I supervise him until
Internet is done (he usually goes after Internet's food). Some get
the same food, and if they want to switch bowls, that's fine --
they're getting what they're supposed to get anyway! I feed one cat
Hill's w/d, three cats Hill's Sensitive Stomach, three cats Hill's
Adult, and one cat canned food (he has no teeth). Each has his/her
own feeding station, and each one knows where it is. It *is* a bit of
a zoo, but if you don't free feed them, you should be able to
supervise them twice a day for 20 minutes while they eat. Once they
get used to it, they'll probably be easier about it, too.

Good luck if you decide to try it!

Ginger-lyn

Home Pages:
http://www.moonsummer.com
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy)
http://www.movieanimals.bravehost.com/ (The Violence Against
Animals in Movies Website)

Corey Kaye
February 9th 06, 03:38 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Why not at least give the IVD Modified Protein a try - it would be
> fattier than the one your IBD cat tried so she might like it; also,
> just because that cat didn't like it doesn't mean Ginger won't. Mix
> just a *little* of the new food into her regular food and *slowly*
> add more and more every day until that is all that is in her bowl.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a cat food that's so grain-based. While I
understand the need to keep protein low, I'm just not willing to feed that
much grain.

> If it's a no-go, then Royal Canin Persian 30 formula on that chart is
> lower in phosphorus and it's designed for persians who are prone to
> calcium oxalate stones which means it will not acidify the urine.

I'm curious why you've suggested the Persian formula instead of the Mature.
The Mature sounds like it may be very good for Ginger, especially since it's
softer than normal kibble. Stones are not an issue with this cat--no
crystals in the urine, and nothing on the radiographs.

> only make suggestions. You should really go through that
> felinecrf.org and felinecrf. com site thoroughly and then decide -
> the info. you can learn on there is amazing; it really helped me.

I do appreciate your suggestions :) I have been doing some reading--and
those are very nice sites. But, honestly, what I'm reading is reassuring me
more than anything. From felinecrf.org, Ginger has none of the "problems
you can see." From felinecrf.com, Ginger has none of the "symptoms of CRF."
She's acting fantastic. Also on felinecrf.com is the line "treat the cat,
not the lab work."

I do realize how serious CRF is, and lost a cat to it years and years ago.
She was only 7, and we'd fed her grocery store food her whole life. Now, my
cats and dogs get Innova, and my vet is SO pleased with how they all look.
I guess I'm just reluctant to switch brands when I've had such good luck
with the Innova, and I wonder if we could get Ginger's creatinine down by
dropping the protein 10%. (She's been eating regular Innova for years,
which has 40% protein and 1.01 phos.)

Obviously, if Ginger starts acting sick, I'll be much more aggresive in the
way I approach this. But right now, I'm just not convinced it's necessary.

When your cat was first diagnosed with CRF, did she act sick? Did you see
any of the symptoms listed on the CRF websites?

Thanks for the discussion--it's interesting and informative :)

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 9th 06, 04:05 AM
>I'm curious why you've suggested the Persian formula instead of the Mature.
>The Mature sounds like it may be very good for Ginger, especially since it's
>softer than normal kibble. Stones are not an issue with this cat--no
>crystals in the urine, and nothing on the radiographs.

Yes the Mature does sound like a better option for crf cats. I guess it
doesn't matter that's she's not over 10 (the age they indicate on the bag) as
it does fit the crf food profile better. There's 2 versions - indoor and
outdoor. All that means is that one is higher in calories (the outdoor) than
the other and the indoor one would have more fibre in it for hairballs. The
one for indoors indicates that it is softer than regular kibble but the one
for outdoors doesn't say that. Maybe they both are but they only advertise
it on one(?). You'd have to ask them.

>When your cat was first diagnosed with CRF, did she act sick? Did you see
>any of the symptoms listed on the CRF websites?

I would never have known she was sick. Acted totally normal. She was
diagnosed at 9. In order for creatinine to be elevated in the blood test, at
least 70% of the kidneys must be destroyed, so if 70% of her kidneys were
already gone at age 9, I don't know when it started - seems kinda early to me.
When I read that - the 70% destroyed part - it was very very upsetting, but
I've since learned that they can last for years and years on only a small
percentage of kidney function. It's been 4 years now and she's still
basically the same -
I think she *might* be at the water bowl a bit more now but it is hard to
tell as she's always just taken little tiny sips her whole life instead of a
big gulp like my other 2 cats so she's always been at the bowl kinda long.
Another thing that happened is she went down to 5.5 lbs instead of 7 - hard
to tell by looking at her but I can feel her spine more. I've been stuffing
her as much as I can and she's back up to 6 so far.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Corey Kaye
February 9th 06, 08:27 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

> Yes the Mature does sound like a better option for crf cats. I guess
> it doesn't matter that's she's not over 10 (the age they indicate on
> the bag) as it does fit the crf food profile better. There's 2
> versions - indoor and outdoor. All that means is that one is higher
> in calories (the outdoor) than the other and the indoor one would
> have more fibre in it for hairballs. The one for indoors indicates
> that it is softer than regular kibble but the one for outdoors
> doesn't say that. Maybe they both are but they only advertise it on
> one(?). You'd have to ask them.

Oh, I didn't even notice the outdoor! My kitties are all indoor only.

> I would never have known she was sick. Acted totally normal. She was
> diagnosed at 9. In order for creatinine to be elevated in the blood
> test, at least 70% of the kidneys must be destroyed, so if 70% of her
> kidneys were already gone at age 9, I don't know when it started -

Do you have a cite for that? They mention the 70% destroyed on
www.felinecrf.com, but that's 70% before they show symptoms. Ginger is
showing nothing in that list of symptoms.

<snips>

> life instead of a big gulp like my other 2 cats so she's always been
> at the bowl kinda long. Another thing that happened is she went down
> to 5.5 lbs instead of 7 - hard to tell by looking at her but I can
> feel her spine more. I've been stuffing her as much as I can and
> she's back up to 6 so far.

Ginger eats and drinks normally, and certainly hasn't lost any weight :) I
have picked up the Royal Canin Mature 27, and we'll see how she does on
that. She'll still have the option on eating the Innova, but I'll fill the
feeder that she usually eats at with the RC. I'll probably also pull
another set of labs in about a month. It'll be interesting to see how
weekly sub-q fluids and a new diet changes her blood work.

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 9th 06, 09:53 PM
>Do you have a cite for that? They mention the 70% destroyed on
>www.felinecrf.com, but that's 70% before they show symptoms. Ginger is
>showing nothing in that list of symptoms.

http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm#how_bad_numbers

Ginger's creatinine is 3.7. On the chart in link above, a creatinine range
of 2.4-4 with a BUN of 25-80 is considered "renal insufficiency"; at this
stage, the kidneys are 76-90% destroyed as per the chart. There is another
chart there by the International Renal Insufficiency Society; according to
that one, your cat is at stage 3 - creatinine between 2.8-5 which mean
"azotaemic". http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.htm#azotaemia. My vet also
confirmed that once creatinine is high enough to show up in the blood test,
at least 70% of kidney function is destroyed - my cat showed no symptoms for
the past 4 years either but I still know she has lost 70% of her kidney
function. I'm not *positive* she's drinking more, I may be imagining it
because I know it's one of the symptoms. I think you're still in the denial
stage but that's okay, I was too for quite awhile.

>another set of labs in about a month. It'll be interesting to see how
>weekly sub-q fluids and a new diet changes her blood work.

http://www.felinecrf.com/managb.htm
http://www.felinecrf.org/fluid_therapy.htm

Is she dehydrated? That is one of the reasons they are given sub-q's. My
cat has never needed them. Perhaps because your cat is above 3.5 - the 2nd
link states that if your cat is consistently above 3.5-4, then sub-q's should
probably be done. Don't know how high your cat's BUN is - maybe your vet
wants to lower that with sub-q's. My cat has never had very high BUN. You
also need to find out what her potassium and phosphorus from her blood test
is as per the site's advice. But I'm sure your vet would have told you if
they were too high(?).

http://www.felinecrf.com/tests0.htm

I trust your vet took a urine sample. This is another way to see how the
kidneys are functioning. CRF cats can't concentrate their urine very well so
if her USG (urine specific gravity) is below about 1.030 then she is not
concentrating it as well as a normal cat. Mine is only at 1.026, so I know
that's not too bad. Most are lower than that.

I know there's a lot to learn - I highly recommend
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/ - excellent help from
caring people there all in the same predicament and at different stages.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Corey Kaye
February 9th 06, 11:27 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

<snip links>

Thanks!

> I may be imagining it because I know it's one of the symptoms. I
> think you're still in the denial stage but that's okay, I was too for
> quite awhile.

I think it's interesting that you think I'm in denial. I may be, but I
don't think so. This is why:

--Ginger is a weird cat. She has a lot of issues, and is probably very
inbred. Her kidneys are congenitally small. We've not done bloodwork on
her before, and my vet believe that she could have had labs like this for a
very long time. More "renal insufficiency" rather than "renal failure."

--Ginger just came off antibiotics for a bad kidney or bladder infection.
While her urine looks great now (some blood--cystitis) the vet and I agree
that the infection could have affected her kidney values, and they could
take a bit more time to come down.

--Ginger also had one dead tooth in a mouth full of great looking teeth that
was removed a couple weeks ago. The bacteria could have contributed to her
kidney failure/insuffiency, and again--perhaps it's going to take some time
for the kidney values to drop.

--She has NO symptoms, and is acting better now than I think I've ever seen
her.

--I AM changing her food to something lower protein with less phosphorus,
and adding sub-q fluids. My vet recommended this to help flush out her
kidneys. Since all those links say cats with CRF are in a state of chronic
dehydration ranging from slight to severe, I think this is just to cover the
bases.

--My vet, whom I respect greatly (and I am one picky client) is concerned,
but not overly so about Ginger. He called me to inquire about the protein
and phosphorus content about what she was eating, and to suggest some sub-q
fluids. He's not pushing the panic button just yet.

--And, finally, unrelated to Ginger, I just went on a hellish rollercoaster
concerning bloodwork with another one of my cats, so I'm a little wary of
jumping to conclusions without several data points. Dropping Ginger's
protein by 13%, the phos by 0.4 (IIRC) and adding fluids is a reasonable
first step. I can evaluate in a month, and make any changes depending on
what her labs look like after that.

> sub-q's. My cat has never had very high BUN. You also need to find
> out what her potassium and phosphorus from her blood test is as per
> the site's advice. But I'm sure your vet would have told you if they
> were too high(?).

BUN was slightly elavated.. Other bloodwork was normal.

> I trust your vet took a urine sample. This is another way to see how
> the kidneys are functioning. CRF cats can't concentrate their urine
> very well so if her USG (urine specific gravity) is below about 1.030
> then she is not concentrating it as well as a normal cat. Mine is
> only at 1.026, so I know that's not too bad. Most are lower than
> that.

Urine was normal, except for blood, which can be attributed to idiopathic
cystitis.

> I know there's a lot to learn - I highly recommend
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/ - excellent help
> from caring people there all in the same predicament and at different
> stages.

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out :)

Corey

Steve Crane
February 10th 06, 03:16 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
> >Do you have a cite for that? They mention the 70% destroyed on
> >www.felinecrf.com, but that's 70% before they show symptoms. Ginger is
> >showing nothing in that list of symptoms.

That's part of the problem. Most cats can be in what is called
"sub-clinical" (can't see any symptoms) for a long time. Once the
symptoms are visible it is too late, in fact it's too late now to do
anything but slow the progression of the disease down. Sorry that's not
a very nice way to put it, but that's the way the disease works. we
cannot "fix" it, we can only slow it's progression. In your case the
cat already has a high creat and BUN and that means the cats is beyond
the "sub-clinical" stage and the disease is now "clinically" evident in
the blood work.

Renal failure can be slowed and the progression of the disease can be
greatly reduced. The number of uremic crisis can be reduced and the
onset of these delayed by feeding a food designed specifically for
renal failure.

To do so means you have to begin looking at nutrients and learn to
ignore ingredients. Ingredients are nothing but carriers of nutrients
the cat needs. Analyzing a food based on the ingredients is kind of
like third grade elementary math - simple addition and subtraction.
It's important to move up to at least high school math and begin
analyzing a food based on the nutrients. The next step (kind of college
math) would be looking at a food based upon the grams, mgs, mcgs of any
given nutrient provided per 100 calories of energy. That's difficult
and you probably don't need to go there.

Ingredients can also be very confusing. suppose a food lists "chicken"
as an ingredient. What do you know about the quality of the "chicken"?
Basically nothing. Unless you look at the nutrients - you will never
know what quality of "chicken" the manufacturer is using. It is
possible to buy expensive "chicken" that is low in "ash" (ground up
bones primarily) or a cheap chicken that is 20% ash. It is also
possible to buy chicken by-product meal that is more expensive that
plain chicken meal - again based on the ash content. A low ash chicken
by-product meal will be a more expensive meat meal than a low grade
high ash chicken meal. You can't tell that from the label, you can
only determine that by looking at the nutrients. In this case the
calcium level can be an indicator that the company is using inexpensive
chicken. Pure chicken muscle meat contains only 0.01% calcium - so a
food that ends up with 1.5% calcium in the finished product has a lot
of ground up bone tissue in it.

Renal failure can be controlled by controlling VERY carefully several
nutrients. First we must reduce phosphorus levels drastically.
Prescription Diet k/d contains 0.37% (can) 0.49% (dry) Royal Canin
Feline LP21 contains 0.49% (can) 0.55% (dry). Purina NF 0.41% can,
0.52% dry. Eukanuba Multi Stage renal 0.54% dry, 0.76% can. These are
all dry matter basis values. While it may seem that the difference
between 0.5% phos and an average grocery store food which contains 1.0%
is very small - the difference in the cats longevity is huge.

Phosphorus is only one of several things that must be managed. Sodium
content must be reduced, Omega 3 fatty acids must be greatly increased
to reduce renal tubule damage, the protein must be extremely digestible
so that limiting the protein does not adversely affect the cat.

The most recent grade 1 evidence based clinical trial clearly shows
that cats on a renal failure diet will live twice as long and have half
as many uremic crisis as cats fed a typical average food. (Ross et al,
to be published later this year)

It looks like there are some new folks here that do not know who I am,
so it's probably a good time for the legalese.

While I have been an employee of Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc for nearly 25
years, anything I post here is my personal opinion only - and should
not be considered in any way the position or opinion of the company I
work for.

Steve Crane

Corey Kaye
February 10th 06, 06:39 AM
Steve Crane wrote:

<snips>

> Renal failure can be slowed and the progression of the disease can be
> greatly reduced. The number of uremic crisis can be reduced and the
> onset of these delayed by feeding a food designed specifically for
> renal failure.

Which is why Ginger is now on Royal Canin Mature (29.7% protein, 0.69 %
phosphorus) instead of Innova (39.34% protein, 1.01% phosphorus). Numbers
taken from http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm

If Ginger does not improve with this diet change, then I'll consider a true
kidney diet--most likely the Royal Canin version.

> To do so means you have to begin looking at nutrients and learn to
> ignore ingredients. Ingredients are nothing but carriers of nutrients
> the cat needs. Analyzing a food based on the ingredients is kind of

While I have a small sample size (about 20 animals through my life) I do
know that my pets look the best on ultra-premium food like Innova that
contains high-quality ingredients, and the worst on grocery store food that
contains low quality ingredients. In my experience, Hill's falls in the
middle. My vet agrees with me.

> like third grade elementary math - simple addition and subtraction.
> It's important to move up to at least high school math and begin
> analyzing a food based on the nutrients. The next step (kind of
> college math) would be looking at a food based upon the grams, mgs,
> mcgs of any given nutrient provided per 100 calories of energy.
> That's difficult and you probably don't need to go there.

Please don't patronize me.

<snips>

> Phosphorus is only one of several things that must be managed. Sodium
> content must be reduced, Omega 3 fatty acids must be greatly increased
> to reduce renal tubule damage, the protein must be extremely
> digestible so that limiting the protein does not adversely affect the
> cat.

Yes, I've gathered that from the links that Anna has provided, and our
discussion.

> The most recent grade 1 evidence based clinical trial clearly shows
> that cats on a renal failure diet will live twice as long and have
> half as many uremic crisis as cats fed a typical average food. (Ross
> et al, to be published later this year)

What were the "typical" foods fed, and where will this study be published?

> While I have been an employee of Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc for nearly
> 25 years, anything I post here is my personal opinion only - and
> should not be considered in any way the position or opinion of the
> company I work for.

What do you do at Hill's?

Corey

Steve Crane
February 10th 06, 03:57 PM
Corey Kaye wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:
>
> <snips>
>
> > Renal failure can be slowed and the progression of the disease can be
> > greatly reduced. The number of uremic crisis can be reduced and the
> > onset of these delayed by feeding a food designed specifically for
> > renal failure.
>
> Which is why Ginger is now on Royal Canin Mature (29.7% protein, 0.69 %
> phosphorus) instead of Innova (39.34% protein, 1.01% phosphorus). Numbers
> taken from http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm

The reduction in phosphorus is helpful, but that isn't the whole story.
Added Omega 3's, reduced sodium, etc are also critical.


> If Ginger does not improve with this diet change, then I'll consider a true
> kidney diet--most likely the Royal Canin version.

That will work fine, but I would recommend doing so now, not later.
Your cats kidney is already +70% damaged. RC's product is the old
Waltham product and they do have a good solid Grade 1 evidence based
clinical trial on the product.


> > To do so means you have to begin looking at nutrients and learn to
> > ignore ingredients. Ingredients are nothing but carriers of nutrients
> > the cat needs. Analyzing a food based on the ingredients is kind of
>
> While I have a small sample size (about 20 animals through my life) I do
> know that my pets look the best on ultra-premium food like Innova that
> contains high-quality ingredients, and the worst on grocery store food that
> contains low quality ingredients. In my experience, Hill's falls in the
> middle. My vet agrees with me.
>
> Please don't patronize me.

That is not my intention, but long experience tells me that analogies
help to create better understanding. Analyzing a food based on
ingredients is indeed much like third grade elementary math for all of
the reaasons I noted earlier. Most importantly the issue of ingredient
quality which is NOT possible to ascertain by looking at an ingredient
label.


> > The most recent grade 1 evidence based clinical trial clearly shows
> > that cats on a renal failure diet will live twice as long and have
> > half as many uremic crisis as cats fed a typical average food. (Ross
> > et al, to be published later this year)
>
> What were the "typical" foods fed, and where will this study be published?

The typical food fed during most such trials is what is called the
"average" food. This can be derived by taking the average nutrient
levels of the largest selling foods. Sometimes Purina Cat Chow is useed
since it represents such a huge portion of the market. In this case the
"average" food was an "average" cat food that contained 0.9%
phosphorus, 0.4% sodium, - All Dry Matter Basis.

ABSTRACT #121
CLINICAL EVALUATION OF EFFECTS OF DIETARY MODIFICATION IN CATS
WITH SPONTANEOUS CHRONIC RENAL FAILURE. S Ross1, C Osborne1, D
Polzin1, S Lowry2, C Kirk3, L Koehler1. 1College of Veterinary
Medicine, University of
Minnesota, St. Paul, MN. 2Hill's Science and Technology Center,
Topeka, KS. 3 College
of Veterinary Medicine, The University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN.
A double-masked, controlled, randomized, clinical trial was designed to
determine if a
renal diet (modified in protein, phosphorous, sodium, and lipid
composition) was superior
to an adult maintenance diet in minimizing uremic episodes and
mortality rate in cats
with mild to moderate chronic renal failure.
Forty-five client owned cats were randomly assigned to a maintenance
diet or a renal
diet and evaluated tri-monthly for up to 24 months. Kaplan-Meier
survival analyses were
used to evaluate efficacy of the renal diet compared to the maintenance
diet in
minimizing uremia, renal-related mortality, and all causes of
mortality.
Events Renal diet (%) Maintenance
diet (%)
Uremic crises 0/22 (0) 5/23
(22)
Renal cause mortality 0/22 (0) 4/23 (17)
All causes of mortality 3/22 (14) 9/23 (39)
Serum urea nitrogen concentrations were significantly lower and blood
bicarbonate
concentrations were significantly higher in the group fed the renal
diet at baseline and
during the 12- and 24-month intervals. Cats fed the maintenance diet
had a significantly
greater number of uremic episodes (22%) compared to cats fed the renal
diet (0%). A
significant reduction in renal-related mortality was observed in cats
fed the renal diet.
The renal diet evaluated in this study was superior to an adult
maintenance diet in
minimizing uremic episodes and mortality rate in cats with mild to
moderate spontaneous
chronic renal failure.

> What do you do at Hill's?

I spent my first 20 years doing in clinic seminars teaching
veterinarians how to use our food in conjunction with other treatment
modalities, (drug, pharma, surgery etc). For the past three years I
have been in the corporate office responsible for a fairly wide range
of activities. I review all veterinary published literature relative to
dietary products, or supplemental drug products (what we call
"nutraceuticals") and assign a grade to that literature baased on the
Evidence Based Medicine grading system. I serve on all new product
development teams with our research people. I have over 2,000 hours of
continuing education at veterinary conferences. The team I work with
every day consists of a number of veterinarians, most of which are
boarded in one specialty or another. We have several ACVIM boarded
individuals, a boarded derm person, boarded nutritionists, boarded
veterinary microbioligist, boarded veterinary immunologist, and a
number of non veterinarians who hold pHd's in nutrition.


> Corey

Corey Kaye
February 10th 06, 09:53 PM
Steve Crane wrote:

> The reduction in phosphorus is helpful, but that isn't the whole
> story. Added Omega 3's, reduced sodium, etc are also critical.

Entertainingly enough, Innova lite has less sodium and more omega 3's than
Hill's k/d. Innova lite also has less sodium than the Royal Canin Mature,
and roughly the same protein as the k/d. Do you see why it's hard to make
an easy descision regarding this issue? There are many variables, as you
point out, and there is no "perfect" food.

<snips>

> That is not my intention, but long experience tells me that analogies
> help to create better understanding. Analyzing a food based on
> ingredients is indeed much like third grade elementary math for all of
> the reaasons I noted earlier. Most importantly the issue of ingredient
> quality which is NOT possible to ascertain by looking at an ingredient
> label.

Even if it's true that it's difficult to ascertain the quality of the
ingredients looking at the list, it's not difficult to assess the condition
of the animal when fed a certain quality of food. My pets are in fantastic
condition when fed ultra-premium food (Innova). They were in fine condition
when fed mid-quality food (I consider Science Diet in the group, along with
pretty much everything at PetSmart.) When fed poor quality food, they were
in poor condition.

Yes, I obviously need to address Ginger's CRF. But I can not address JUST
that. I also need to feed her something that keeps her coat in good
condition, her stools small, and her teeth clean. After all, GIGO.

> The typical food fed during most such trials is what is called the
> "average" food. This can be derived by taking the average nutrient
> levels of the largest selling foods. Sometimes Purina Cat Chow is
> useed since it represents such a huge portion of the market. In this
> case the "average" food was an "average" cat food that contained 0.9%
> phosphorus, 0.4% sodium, - All Dry Matter Basis.

I would be incredibly interested in the same study, but with varying
"average" diets. IOW, feed a kidney diet, an ultra-premium, average and
poor quality food. I imagine there are feeds in all three groups that would
meet the "average" qualifications.

<snip abstract>

Interesting. Thank you for posting that.

> I spent my first 20 years doing in clinic seminars teaching
> veterinarians how to use our food in conjunction with other treatment
> modalities, (drug, pharma, surgery etc). For the past three years I
> have been in the corporate office responsible for a fairly wide range
> of activities. I review all veterinary published literature relative
> to dietary products, or supplemental drug products (what we call
> "nutraceuticals") and assign a grade to that literature baased on the
> Evidence Based Medicine grading system. I serve on all new product
> development teams with our research people. I have over 2,000 hours of
> continuing education at veterinary conferences. The team I work with
> every day consists of a number of veterinarians, most of which are
> boarded in one specialty or another. We have several ACVIM boarded
> individuals, a boarded derm person, boarded nutritionists, boarded
> veterinary microbioligist, boarded veterinary immunologist, and a
> number of non veterinarians who hold pHd's in nutrition.

Sounds like a fun job. What's your educational background? I'm persuing a
bachelors/masters in statistics, with a minor in biochemistry and english.
It sounds like I would like what you do :)

Corey

LMR via CatKB.com
February 10th 06, 10:28 PM
>Even if it's true that it's difficult to ascertain the quality of the
>ingredients looking at the list, it's not difficult to assess the condition
>of the animal when fed a certain quality of food. My pets are in fantastic
>condition when fed ultra-premium food (Innova).

Then why did your cat have cystitis if she was eating an "ultra-premium" food.
Hmmm.


LMR

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Corey Kaye
February 10th 06, 10:46 PM
LMR via CatKB.com wrote:

> Then why did your cat have cystitis if she was eating an
> "ultra-premium" food. Hmmm.

Genetic predisposition?

I also have cystitis, as did my mother. I see nothing odd in a really
inbred barn cat having cystitis. Can you point me to a source that
discusses non-genetic causes of idiopathic cystitis?

Corey

Kelcey via CatKB.com
February 10th 06, 10:51 PM
>Yes, I obviously need to address Ginger's CRF. But I can not address JUST
>that. I also need to feed her something that keeps her coat in good
>condition, her stools small, and her teeth clean. After all, GIGO.

My sister's cat has had renal disease for years (she's 22 now). She eats
Medi Cal Reduced Protein (I think Royal Canin just bought them out so
hopefully the formula will still stay the same!). Her coat is soft and her
stools are normal (I've scooped the box when I've cat-sit her). I think that
the reason she's lived so long is my sister doesn't fool around - when she
was told to switch to renal food she did so promptly and doesn't waver from
it. Oh sure there was the ocassional treat but even then she was always
strict - a small piece of turkey, etc., nothing too much, only once in a
while. Her cat has lived for years since the diagnosis so we can only
attribute it to the food (that and a lot of love from everyone).

Kelcey

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

PawsForThought
February 10th 06, 11:48 PM
Corey Kaye wrote:
> While I have a small sample size (about 20 animals through my life) I do
> know that my pets look the best on ultra-premium food like Innova that
> contains high-quality ingredients, and the worst on grocery store food that
> contains low quality ingredients. In my experience, Hill's falls in the
> middle. My vet agrees with me.

Hi Corey,
I"m sorry to hear about your kitty. I also have found that better
ingredients result in better health. No matter what some petfood
salesman says, it definitely is true. I had tried Science Diet food
with my previous cats but they did poorly on it. I"m sure Steve Crane
or his cohort Gaubster will be along shortly to call me a "Hill's
hater" which is ridiculous. I just have had bad experience with their
food.

Anna via CatKB.com
February 10th 06, 11:49 PM
>My sister's cat has had renal disease for years (she's 22 now). She eats
>Medi Cal Reduced Protein (I think Royal Canin just bought them out so
>hopefully the formula will still stay the same!). Her coat is soft and her

I use that one too for my crf cat's dry food. The last time I bought it it
looked a little darker and maybe a little less oily (not positive) but the
ingredients were the same. I didn't see Royal Canin written anywhere on the
bag but I asked the vet as I heard too that they bought them out. Vet said
they did (they also bought out Waltham) and he also said that they were
thinking of dropping it cause they were concerned Royal Canin would change it.
They decided to just order Medi-Cal for the people who still wanted it but
now they have a small supply on hand. Not as big a supply as Hill's though,
and they have some Purina too. When I got my renal cat as a kitten I wanted
to feed her dry Hill's as that's what my other cat was eating, but I guess
they are too hard and round (?) for her. She acted like they were too hard
for her to crunch and wouldn't eat them, so I had to raise her on Iams Lamb &
Rice as it was flatter and softer (till the diagnoses). So of course I can't
feed her the dry k/d either as it's the same shape. One of my other cats has
always dropped some of the Science Diet kibble she eats out of her mouth too
so they're all around the outside of her food bowl all the time. I wish
Hill's would change their shape.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

PawsForThought
February 11th 06, 12:03 AM
Corey Kaye wrote:
> Ginger is a 6 year old orange and white spayed female. She's been inside
> all her life with me, but was born in a barn. Tested FIV/FeLV negative,
> vaccinated on schedule.

I came across this study a while back and found it pretty interesting.
Of course more studies need to be done, but it sure makes you think:

PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)

are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,

to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10g of
CRFK protein SQ; 50g of CRFK protein SQ; 50g of CRFK protein plus
an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or

one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the
mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six

were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed

to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats.

Steve Crane
February 11th 06, 01:28 AM
Corey Kaye wrote:
> Steve Crane wrote:
> Sounds like a fun job. What's your educational background? I'm persuing a
> bachelors/masters in statistics, with a minor in biochemistry and english.
> It sounds like I would like what you do :)
>
> Corey

Oh God - my very worst subject statistics! I struggled through those
classes and barely managed to get through them. I really dislike that
stuff. Today when I need a statistical analysis I take the pile to a
guy at our research facility who thinks statistics are cool. I tell
Lowry he's sorely in need of a life. He tells me other things that I
probably shouldn't write here. (He's really a good guy, but don't tell
him I said so) Thank goodness for having access to him as he has the
patience to walk me through the issues. My educational background is
really not appropriate to what I do today. I think that's not all that
uncommon. I have a BA, MA, in criminal law and then a BSBA and MBA in
Organizational Management - kind of a heavy HR focus. My formal
education isn't of much help. It has been 20 years spending my working
hours in veterinary clinics and attending veterinary conferences and
then when I moved into corporate being surounded by a terrific group of
highly educated veterinarians. I'm the only non-vet in the department
and it has been a real challenge trying to play catch-up. I think a
challenge is good for everyone all the time and forces us to think and
learn. Any time you quit learning you're in trouble.

Your education is very good for all kinds of things and yes you would
probably enjoy the research community. They do keep you on your toes. I
find it exciting to see where we can go and what we can do down the
road. When you talk to these researchers they have ideas and theories
that are exciting - and in many ways it reinforces my optomistic view
of the future. The TV news last night announced the decline of cancer
in humans for the first time in history last year. When you talk to
people in that field you know we are getting close. Probably too late
for my generation, but my children and certainly my grandchildren will
look back on cancer like my generation looks at polio. Seeing that kind
of stuff in the future is exciting and makes you want to go to work in
the morning.

Steve Crane
February 11th 06, 01:46 AM
Kelcey via CatKB.com wrote:
> >Yes, I obviously need to address Ginger's CRF. But I can not address JUST
> >that. I also need to feed her something that keeps her coat in good
> >condition, her stools small, and her teeth clean. After all, GIGO.
>
> My sister's cat has had renal disease for years (she's 22 now). She eats
> Medi Cal Reduced Protein (I think Royal Canin just bought them out so
> hopefully the formula will still stay the same!).

Actually Medi-Cal was sold to Heinz ~8-9 years ago. Heinz then sold it
to Mars who combined it with the Waltham line, IVD line, and the Royal
Canin line and it is now purely Royal Canin everywhere in the world but
in Canada where the Medi-Cal brand name still has some value. RC bought
Medi-Cal almost three years ago now. Mars (Pedigree/Whiskas) is the
largest manufacturer of pet food in the world and has dozens of labels
and brands. Royal Canin thus inherited a whole raft of different
products under the old Waltham label, the old Medi-Cal label and the
old IVD label. It's not an easy "marriage". Waltham has always done
solid studies and published the data supporting most of their products,
and to some degree so has Royal Canin. IVD and Medi-Cal have never
published a single clinical trial for any of their products, ever in
their entire history. Obviously Mars/Royal Canin isn't going to
continue to manufacture 4 different renal failure products for dogs and
3 for cats. How it will all sort out down the road only the folks at
Royal Canin could guess, and they're a little busy right now with other
things.

John Doe
February 11th 06, 02:03 AM
"Corey Kaye" > wrote:

>
> Yes, I obviously need to address Ginger's CRF. But I can not
> address JUST that. I also need to feed her something that keeps
> her coat in good condition, her stools small, and her teeth clean.

Why keep her stools small? Do you mean avoid constipation?

Corey Kaye
February 11th 06, 03:02 AM
John Doe wrote:

> Why keep her stools small? Do you mean avoid constipation?

Perhaps I should have said "high digestability" instead. Lower quality food
usually isn't utilized as well, resulting in the need to feed more of it,
and more waste in the litterbox.

For example, when I brought my newest puppy home a couple years ago, I was
able to gradually switch her from Pedigree to Innova, and feed half as much.
Her stools were also significantly smaller. (She was also healthier, with a
better hair coat, blah blah blah.)

Corey

Anna via CatKB.com
February 11th 06, 04:48 AM
>I"m sorry to hear about your kitty. I also have found that better
>ingredients result in better health. No matter what some petfood
>salesman says, it definitely is true. I had tried Science Diet food
>with my previous cats but they did poorly on it. I"m sure Steve Crane

My 14 year old has been eating Hill's her whole life and is very healthy.
She just had a blood and urine test a few months back and all is okay. I
have a 13 year old cat whose been eating mostly Hill's canned k/d and also
dry Medi-Cal for the past 4 years and her numbers have barely budged. I have
a 7.5 year old cat that has been eating Hill's for almost 6 years. In 2000,
someone had convinced me to try a "holistic" food (Wysong). He got a total
urinary blockage and was rushed to vet where a cathetar was inserted into him.
I'll never forget it - him lying there after the urine was drained with his
little tongue hanging out of his mouth as if to say "ahhh", then 3 painful
days in clinic with cathetar. It was horrible! Hill's food has been keeping
him healthy since then; he's never had a UTI again. I thought when I tried
the "holistic" (whatever that word means anyway!) food I was going to have a
super healthy cat for life; they make it sound so good. Now I think all
those holistic companies do is tell you scare stories about the big
companies' foods - it's the only way they can sell their food in this
competitive market. I was a fool for trying it when I had a healthy cat
eating Hill's and should have known better.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Anna via CatKB.com
February 11th 06, 05:48 AM
>IVD and Medi-Cal have never
>published a single clinical trial for any of their products, ever in
>their entire history. Obviously Mars/Royal Canin isn't going to

The only reason I get dry Medi-cal is because of the shape and texture
(flatter (sort of star-shaped) than k/d and easily breakable). She won't
have anything to do with round, hard kibbles; that's why she couldn't have
Hill's dry food growing up (which was a shame) - had to raise her on Iams
Lamb & Rice. If the shape of k/d changed I'd get that instead.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

PawsForThought
February 11th 06, 03:53 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
> >I"m sorry to hear about your kitty. I also have found that better
> >ingredients result in better health. No matter what some petfood
> >salesman says, it definitely is true. I had tried Science Diet food
> >with my previous cats but they did poorly on it. I"m sure Steve Crane
>
> My 14 year old has been eating Hill's her whole life and is very healthy.

Every food will have different results on different animals. I'm glad
it worked for you. Unfortunately, many people I know had the same
experiences with Hill's that I did. Once they switched to a better
brand, their animals improved. I have a friend who thought Hill's was
a great food for her pet. One day they were out of the flavor of
Hill's that she was feeding, so she decided to try another brand
(Petguard or Wellness, I can't remember which it was). Anyway, after a
bit of time on the new food, she remarked to me how much better her cat
was doing on the new food, with a shinier coat and not as voluminous
stools in the litterbox.

Anna via CatKB.com
February 11th 06, 09:21 PM
>Every food will have different results on different animals. I'm glad
>it worked for you. Unfortunately, many people I know had the same
>experiences with Hill's that I did. Once they switched to a better
>brand, their animals improved. I have a friend who thought Hill's was
>a great food for her pet. One day they were out of the flavor of
>Hill's that she was feeding, so she decided to try another brand
>(Petguard or Wellness, I can't remember which it was). Anyway, after a
>bit of time on the new food, she remarked to me how much better her cat
>was doing on the new food, with a shinier coat and not as voluminous
>stools in the litterbox.

Yes, I agree, some foods will have different results on different animals.
I'm sure every pet food company has customers who love their product and
swear by it. I've also had the same experience as you - many people have
remarked to me how silky soft my cats' coats are and they have switched to
Hill's as a result. Their cats do not have voluminous stools from eating
this food either - they say it is more compact. But I don't just go by what
kind of coat a food produces, I go by how healthy it keeps my pets on the
inside; healthy organs make for healthy animals.

Anna

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

PawsForThought
February 12th 06, 11:52 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
But I don't just go by what
> kind of coat a food produces, I go by how healthy it keeps my pets on the
> inside; healthy organs make for healthy animals.

Well of course coat condition is just one part of it, although in my
experience a cat with a really good coat will be generally in good
health, although it is not the only indicative factor.