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Jean B.
February 13th 06, 07:39 PM
I have spent some hours trying to go through the recent posts
on this incendiary topic, and I am still here asking my usual
questions....

Background: In January 2005, Mingy was hospitalized for a
blockage and struvite crystals. This was really awful for him
(and thus for me) because he is an extremely nervous cat who
cannot stand ANYTHING out of the norm. Nothing! Therefore
nhis hospitalization was not good for him mentally--or
physically, to the degree that his mental state affects his
physical state.

I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then. Changes I
have made include giving him wet food most of the time.
Increasing watering stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain
(he didn't like the Freshflow one), and trying to keep things
as calm as possible. I also give him some c/d when I know
he's had a stressful day.

The problem is that he had been eating Wellness canned
food--most recently only chicken and turkey. Wellness claims
they have not changed their food, but he started ignoring the
chicken and now seems to be ignoring the turkey too. This is
even more interesting because I had a couple of older cans of
chicken, and when I put one out, he ate it just like he used
to! This makes me most suspicious.

Therefore, once again, I am thinking I need to find other
foods for him. Of course, now I have only ONE can of the
older chicken to mix with whatever it is we are going to try. :-(

Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good
from a nutritional standpoint but which also might be the
least bit stable? Of course, one can't predict the latter,
and it seems like the good companies end up selling out or
otherwise changing.

I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
increasing his fluid consumption and minimizing stress. (I am
also reminded that I need to get Feliway!)

Thanks. And in the meantime, I will search back a bit farther
to find some specific posts of Phil's that I am looking for.
There is just so much written here on this topic that one can
grow quite bleary-eyed in the process! :-)
--
Jean B.

February 13th 06, 10:37 PM
Jean B. wrote:
> I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
> designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
> disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
> increasing his fluid consumption and minimizing stress. (I am
> also reminded that I need to get Feliway!)

Fatty foods can predispose to oxalate yet that is the diet against
stuvite.
It's all so confusing. And quite dangerous. Struvite crystals are bad
and oxalate can be much worse. In males there is added big risks.

Increasing water and stress reduction sounds great.

If you want CONTROL, here is a diet from Science Diet for those
so interested:

http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d

about 3 or 4 diets in that URL, hypoallergenic, weigh reduction.

I have not tried them but I am getting tired of asking the food
companies for details. If I made my own food, I probably would know
much better, especially when compared against the latest USDA SR-18
database, which has about 60 nutrients at least and thousands and
thousands of foods. Great resource.

Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium Diet
* 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
* 1 lb. Ground beef, cooked
* 1 cup cooked white rice without salt
* 1 teaspoon vegetable oil
* 1 teaspoon calcium carbonate (health food stores or ground egg
shells)
* 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all
vitamins and minerals and 250 mg taurine/day.

Cook the meat. Stir in remaining ingredients and mix well. Keep extra
food covered in refrigerator.
Yields 1 3/4 lbs.
Feeding Guide
Cat Weight Amount to Feed (per Day) Analysis
5 lb. 1/5 lb Protein 14.3 %
7-8 lb. 1/4 lb Fat 13.9 %
10 lb. 1/3 lb Carbohydrate 6.3 %
Moisture 64.0 %
Metabolizable Energy 940 kcal./lb.

A mineral restricted Prescription Diet food, Feline c/d is available in
canned and dry formulas. Please call your vet's office if you have any
questions.

But would this be better or worse? If it's a substitute for c/d but
then again.
I might call a vet that works for the more amenable food companies.
Royal Canin is pretty good.
Science Diet guy might help you out.
Quality foods with low ash might be good all around.
Since your buddy has problems, do check this all out.

You are checking the expiration dates? I think it's around 18 months
for canned food from Science Diet but the stores have only 1 year left
and many times, just a few months ahead, and even a few months behind.
I may have to start buying in bulk to try and get it fairly fresh. The
older cans don't cut it with my fussy feline.

Joe Canuck
February 13th 06, 10:57 PM
Jean B. wrote:
> I have spent some hours trying to go through the recent posts on this
> incendiary topic, and I am still here asking my usual questions....
>
> Background: In January 2005, Mingy was hospitalized for a blockage and
> struvite crystals. This was really awful for him (and thus for me)
> because he is an extremely nervous cat who cannot stand ANYTHING out of
> the norm. Nothing! Therefore nhis hospitalization was not good for him
> mentally--or physically, to the degree that his mental state affects his
> physical state.
>
> I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then.

Great news!

> Changes I have made
> include giving him wet food most of the time. Increasing watering
> stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain (he didn't like the Freshflow
> one), and trying to keep things as calm as possible. I also give him
> some c/d when I know he's had a stressful day.
>
> The problem is that he had been eating Wellness canned food--most
> recently only chicken and turkey. Wellness claims they have not changed
> their food, but he started ignoring the chicken and now seems to be
> ignoring the turkey too. This is even more interesting because I had a
> couple of older cans of chicken, and when I put one out, he ate it just
> like he used to! This makes me most suspicious.
>

There have been some internal issues with the company that manufactures
Wellness in recent history... there was some discussion about it in this
group if you want to check the archives.

Given your experience, it sounds like the formula for that particular
type that your cat enjoys was changed or you received a bad batch.

> Therefore, once again, I am thinking I need to find other foods for
> him. Of course, now I have only ONE can of the older chicken to mix
> with whatever it is we are going to try. :-(
>
> Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good from a
> nutritional standpoint but which also might be the least bit stable? Of
> course, one can't predict the latter, and it seems like the good
> companies end up selling out or otherwise changing.
>

I've had good success with Science Diet and have not noticed significant
changes from batch to batch such that Molly would outright reject it. Of
course, I do mix some of the old with some of the new batch for the
first while just in case there are small changes.

> I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically designed to
> prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise disposed to oxalate
> crystals. Our best bet seems to be increasing his fluid consumption and
> minimizing stress. (I am also reminded that I need to get Feliway!)
>

The Drinkwell was a good option for that as well as feeding canned.

> Thanks. And in the meantime, I will search back a bit farther to find
> some specific posts of Phil's that I am looking for. There is just so
> much written here on this topic that one can grow quite bleary-eyed in
> the process! :-)

I know what you mean. I went through that a few years back. In the final
analysis my criteria for selecting a food to get Molly settled on boiled
down to the following:

1) That Molly accept the food and do well on it.
2) That the nutritional analysis numbers looked reasonable
3) That the food be easily available in most areas of the country.
4) That the food company supplying the food be large and well established.

Anna via CatKB.com
February 14th 06, 12:03 AM
>I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then. Changes I
>have made include giving him wet food most of the time.
>Increasing watering stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain

That's good that's he's doing well and that you're encouringing water
consumption.

>Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good
>from a nutritional standpoint but which also might be the
>least bit stable? Of course, one can't predict the latter,
>and it seems like the good companies end up selling out or
>otherwise changing.

My cat had a blockage from struvite too 6 years ago and I feed him Hill's
Science Diet now. He had Hill's s/d for a couple months to dissolve the
remaining struvite, then he was put on Hill's c/d. I switched him to Science
Diet a couple of year's ago and watched him like a hawk. If he had another
UTI I would have switched him back to c/d and kept him on it but he is doing
very well on SD (I use both canned and dry). They are quite similar in
formula but the c/d is a bit lower in magnesium.

>I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
>designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
>disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be

Remember, there is a little more to it than just giving him canned:
- What is the target urine p/h for Wellness? For prevention of struvite it
should be normal acid (6.2-6.4.)
- What is the magnesium content of Wellness on a dry matter basis?

Hill's doesn't have someone else making their food for them and I think they
have a good quality control program in place. I trust them as they've been
in the business for 60(?) years or so. Everyone looks for different things
in their choice of a pet food but this is *very* important to me.

Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

February 14th 06, 12:49 AM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
> >I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then. Changes I
> >have made include giving him wet food most of the time.
> >Increasing watering stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain
>
> That's good that's he's doing well and that you're encouringing water
> consumption.
>
> >Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good
> >from a nutritional standpoint but which also might be the
> >least bit stable? Of course, one can't predict the latter,
> >and it seems like the good companies end up selling out or
> >otherwise changing.
>
> My cat had a blockage from struvite too 6 years ago and I feed him Hill's
> Science Diet now. He had Hill's s/d for a couple months to dissolve the
> remaining struvite, then he was put on Hill's c/d. I switched him to Science
> Diet a couple of year's ago and watched him like a hawk. If he had another
> UTI I would have switched him back to c/d and kept him on it but he is doing
> very well on SD (I use both canned and dry). They are quite similar in
> formula but the c/d is a bit lower in magnesium.

when you say switched back to c/d, you really meant s/d? yes? s/d is
for short-term use in dissolving crystals and too high fat content, so
might cause oxalate crystals if used long term?

> >I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
> >designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
> >disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
>
> Remember, there is a little more to it than just giving him canned:
> - What is the target urine p/h for Wellness? For prevention of struvite it
> should be normal acid (6.2-6.4.)
> - What is the magnesium content of Wellness on a dry matter basis?
>
> Hill's doesn't have someone else making their food for them and I think they
> have a good quality control program in place. I trust them as they've been
> in the business for 60(?) years or so. Everyone looks for different things
> in their choice of a pet food but this is *very* important to me.
>
> Anna

that's a good point. but as cats age and oxalate crystals become the
next baddy, SD raises the pH to 6.4 to 6.6 to reduce that possibility
in their Senior diets.

and by SD i mean Science Diet, not their s/d diet. all these details,
details...

Anna via CatKB.com
February 14th 06, 03:35 AM
>when you say switched back to c/d, you really meant s/d? yes? s/d is
>for short-term use in dissolving crystals and too high fat content, so
>might cause oxalate crystals if used long term?

I would have switched him back to s/d if he got struvite crystals again but
only for a short period of time. If he just got a UTI but without struvite
crystals, I would have put him back on c/d. But maybe they put them on s/d
for UTI's too? I thought s/d was only for when they got struvite crystals,
not sure. Anyways I am lucky that he is doing well on the Science Diet; a
lot of them have to stay on prescription food. According to the bag, I am
supposed to change him to the Senior formula now (7+) but I am nervous to
cause the p/h is a more moderate acid of 6.4-6.6. I don't know when I can
relax and not worry anymore. After 6 years, I'm sure it's okay though.
Maybe I'll wait till he's 8.

Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Jean B.
February 14th 06, 11:44 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:

> Jean B. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>I have spent some hours trying to go through the recent posts
>>on this incendiary topic, and I am still here asking my usual
>>questions....
>>
>>Background: In January 2005, Mingy was hospitalized for a
>>blockage and struvite crystals. This was really awful for him
>>(and thus for me) because he is an extremely nervous cat who
>>cannot stand ANYTHING out of the norm. Nothing! Therefore
>>nhis hospitalization was not good for him mentally--or
>>physically, to the degree that his mental state affects his
>>physical state.
>>
>>I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then. Changes I
>>have made include giving him wet food most of the time.
>>Increasing watering stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain
>>(he didn't like the Freshflow one), and trying to keep things
>>as calm as possible. I also give him some c/d when I know
>>he's had a stressful day.
>>
>>The problem is that he had been eating Wellness canned
>>food--most recently only chicken and turkey. Wellness claims
>>they have not changed their food, but he started ignoring the
>>chicken and now seems to be ignoring the turkey too. This is
>>even more interesting because I had a couple of older cans of
>>chicken, and when I put one out, he ate it just like he used
>>to! This makes me most suspicious.
>>
>>Therefore, once again, I am thinking I need to find other
>>foods for him. Of course, now I have only ONE can of the
>>older chicken to mix with whatever it is we are going to try. :-(
>>
>>Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good
>>from a nutritional standpoint but which also might be the
>>least bit stable? Of course, one can't predict the latter,
>>and it seems like the good companies end up selling out or
>>otherwise changing.
>>
>>I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
>>designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
>>disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
>>increasing his fluid consumption and minimizing stress. (I am
>>also reminded that I need to get Feliway!)
>>
>>Thanks. And in the meantime, I will search back a bit farther
>>to find some specific posts of Phil's that I am looking for.
>>There is just so much written here on this topic that one can
>>grow quite bleary-eyed in the process! :-)
>
>
> Kami has done the same thing with foods. There was a period where
> she refused everything I bought recently in favor of the older cans,
> so I copied the lot numbers from the bottom and went store-to-store
> and cleaned them out of any lot numbers from the cans she liked, or
> new ones that were NOT the lot number she didn't like. It worked!
> Sometimes there's just something "different" about the lot and it's
> gone the next time around. So my suggestion would be to do the same
> thing--see if you can find some cans from the older lot at the
> various stores that sell it.
>
Hehe. Well, there is only one store I can think of that might
have older cans. This is complicated by the fact that there
was a Wellness shortage a while ago, so the stock tended to be
wiped out. He went from eating chicken and turkey to just
eating the turkey--and now to eating none of the new stuff.
The good news is I did find two more cans of chicken and 4-5
(haven't unburied the whole stack) more cans of turkey that
I'd put elsewhere. So I have a bit more food ro mix any new
food with.

--
Jean B.

Jean B.
February 14th 06, 11:54 AM
wrote:

> Jean B. wrote:
>
>>I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
>>designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
>>disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
>>increasing his fluid consumption and minimizing stress. (I am
>>also reminded that I need to get Feliway!)
>
>
> Fatty foods can predispose to oxalate yet that is the diet against
> stuvite.
> It's all so confusing.

Yes, in ways it reminds me of walking a tightrope. I am
reluctant to push him too far in either direction....

And quite dangerous. Struvite crystals are bad
> and oxalate can be much worse. In males there is added big risks.

Yes--absolutely true. And Mingy's profile predisposes him to
oxalate crystals.
>
> Increasing water and stress reduction sounds great.
>
> If you want CONTROL, here is a diet from Science Diet for those
> so interested:
>
> http://www.holisticat.com/rxdiets.html#r/d
>
> about 3 or 4 diets in that URL, hypoallergenic, weigh reduction.

Thanks. I also looked at that page. Mingy is not a big fan
of beef or liver, so I don't know what he'd think of this.
>
> I have not tried them but I am getting tired of asking the food
> companies for details.

It would be REALLY nice if they didn't change things!!!! I
don't think I mentioned it here, but... I was talking to the
woman at my pet food store, and she said they don't have to
change their labels for SIX months and that what is in the can
can be ANYTHING. Does anyone here know whether or not this is
the case? If so, it is downright scary.

If I made my own food, I probably would know
> much better, especially when compared against the latest USDA SR-18
> database, which has about 60 nutrients at least and thousands and
> thousands of foods. Great resource.
>
> Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium Diet
> * 1/4 lb. liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
> * 1 lb. Ground beef, cooked
> * 1 cup cooked white rice without salt
> * 1 teaspoon vegetable oil
> * 1 teaspoon calcium carbonate (health food stores or ground egg
> shells)
> * 1/8 teaspoon potassium chloride (salt substitute products)
>
> Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all
> vitamins and minerals and 250 mg taurine/day.

I haven't looked into those.
>
> Cook the meat. Stir in remaining ingredients and mix well. Keep extra
> food covered in refrigerator.
> Yields 1 3/4 lbs.
> Feeding Guide
> Cat Weight Amount to Feed (per Day) Analysis
> 5 lb. 1/5 lb Protein 14.3 %
> 7-8 lb. 1/4 lb Fat 13.9 %
> 10 lb. 1/3 lb Carbohydrate 6.3 %
> Moisture 64.0 %
> Metabolizable Energy 940 kcal./lb.
>
> A mineral restricted Prescription Diet food, Feline c/d is available in
> canned and dry formulas. Please call your vet's office if you have any
> questions.
>
> But would this be better or worse? If it's a substitute for c/d but
> then again.
> I might call a vet that works for the more amenable food companies.
> Royal Canin is pretty good.
> Science Diet guy might help you out.
> Quality foods with low ash might be good all around.
> Since your buddy has problems, do check this all out.
>
> You are checking the expiration dates? I think it's around 18 months
> for canned food from Science Diet but the stores have only 1 year left
> and many times, just a few months ahead, and even a few months behind.
> I may have to start buying in bulk to try and get it fairly fresh. The
> older cans don't cut it with my fussy feline.
>
Uh-oh. The older cans I found expire in 4 months. I have a
few others that expire in 2008 (I first typed 3008!), and I've
had them for awhile, so it must be over two years!

Thanks.

Of course all of this is complicated by cats' desires....

--
Jean B.

Jean B.
February 14th 06, 12:03 PM
Joe Canuck wrote:

> Jean B. wrote:
>
[snipping most of my verbiage]

>> I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then.
>
>
> Great news!

Absolutely. I also try to stay attuned to his potty
doings--both his production and his behavior....
>
[snipping my verbiage]
>
> There have been some internal issues with the company that manufactures
> Wellness in recent history... there was some discussion about it in this
> group if you want to check the archives.

I spent hours looking at the archives. I also have heard from
a store that has Wellness reps. giving talks on the subject,
that they did not and don't intend to change their cat food,
but they have changed their dog food. BUT what do *I* think
when Mingy won't eat the new stuff but will still happily eat
the old stuff? I guess it will be interesting to see his
reaction to the even older cans I just found in my hoards
(mostly of other brands I wanted him to try).
>
> Given your experience, it sounds like the formula for that particular
> type that your cat enjoys was changed or you received a bad batch.

I did get another can last night (different batch), and again,
he would not eat it.
>
> I've had good success with Science Diet and have not noticed significant
> changes from batch to batch such that Molly would outright reject it. Of
> course, I do mix some of the old with some of the new batch for the
> first while just in case there are small changes.

I like that last sentence! I wonder whether that would
work--beyond the digestive issues it would prevent? Hmmmm.
Otherwise, I am afraid to start up that particular war....
>
> The Drinkwell was a good option for that as well as feeding canned.

Yes, I am convinced that liquid intake via the fountain and
his extra waters plus canned food are critical for him.>
>
> I know what you mean. I went through that a few years back. In the final
> analysis my criteria for selecting a food to get Molly settled on boiled
> down to the following:
>
> 1) That Molly accept the food and do well on it.
> 2) That the nutritional analysis numbers looked reasonable
> 3) That the food be easily available in most areas of the country.
> 4) That the food company supplying the food be large and well established.

Yes, to 1 and 2. 3... Hmmm. I was going to say it might not
be relevant for us, but I may move in four or so years. No
4... Well, that's a thought. The smaller companies tend to
be bought out, and then...

Thanks.
--
Jean B.

Jean B.
February 14th 06, 12:10 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:

>>I am happy to say, Mingy has been well since then. Changes I
>>have made include giving him wet food most of the time.
>>Increasing watering stations--and getting a Drinkwell fountain
>
>
> That's good that's he's doing well and that you're encouringing water
> consumption.
>
>
>>Are there any brands of canned cat food that are not only good
>
>>from a nutritional standpoint but which also might be the
>
>>least bit stable? Of course, one can't predict the latter,
>>and it seems like the good companies end up selling out or
>>otherwise changing.
>
>
> My cat had a blockage from struvite too 6 years ago and I feed him Hill's
> Science Diet now. He had Hill's s/d for a couple months to dissolve the
> remaining struvite, then he was put on Hill's c/d. I switched him to Science
> Diet a couple of year's ago and watched him like a hawk. If he had another
> UTI I would have switched him back to c/d and kept him on it but he is doing
> very well on SD (I use both canned and dry). They are quite similar in
> formula but the c/d is a bit lower in magnesium.
>
>
>>I am really afraid to feed Mingy a diet that is specifically
>>designed to prevent struvite crystals, since he is otherwise
>>disposed to oxalate crystals. Our best bet seems to be
>
>
> Remember, there is a little more to it than just giving him canned:
> - What is the target urine p/h for Wellness? For prevention of struvite it
> should be normal acid (6.2-6.4.)
> - What is the magnesium content of Wellness on a dry matter basis?
>
> Hill's doesn't have someone else making their food for them and I think they
> have a good quality control program in place. I trust them as they've been
> in the business for 60(?) years or so. Everyone looks for different things
> in their choice of a pet food but this is *very* important to me.
>
> Anna
>
Well, I did think I didn't want to go the Science Diet route,
but I will say that quality control and consistency have a lot
to be said for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Jean B.