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Corey Kaye
February 18th 06, 04:33 AM
While I'm waiting for Ginger's latest labs, we've switched from Royal Canin
Mature 27 to Royal Canin Renal LP. Her labs two or three weeks ago showed
elevated creatinine and BUN, so we're looking at CRF. Before the RC, she
had been eating Innova, which is quite high in protein and something like
0.9 % phos. Ginger is getting 100 cc's sub-q fluids twice a week. Her
kidneys are congenitally about half normal size, so I think it's kind of an
uphill battle with her.

I'd really like to increase her fluid intake with some canned food. She's
never been fed canned food, and she's just not interested in it. I bought
some of the RC renal LP pouches, putting out a half a tablespoon of a time.
She'll take a couple bites, if she's in the mood, and then leaves the rest.
Should I continue with this? Will she gradually eat more? How often should
I replace the food?

How else can I get her interested in canned food?

Thanks,

Corey

LMR via CatKB.com
February 18th 06, 05:41 PM
>I'd really like to increase her fluid intake with some canned food. She's
>never been fed canned food, and she's just not interested in it. I bought
>How else can I get her interested in canned food?

When one of my cats doesn't eat his canned, I put a little treat on top or
sprinkle some catnip on it; either of those get him going.

Some cats like pouch foods but some don't - she may be one of them. Canned
is more blended together which some cats prefer. You could try the Hill's
k/d "with chicken". There is another canned k/d formula too but the one that
says "with chicken" is softer and mushier. The IVD Modified Protein canned
food is very high in fat - she may like that. You don't have to feed her the
same brand's canned food. If she eats RC LP but won't eat the pouch, it's
okay to give her another company's canned food.

You could also mix some regular canned non-kidney food in with it at first to
see if she likes that, then reduce the regular canned a little bit each day
until all you have left eventually is the kidney diet. This is a slower
process than just giving her the kidney diet right away but may work better.


LMR

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Kelcey via CatKB.com
February 19th 06, 03:38 AM
>You don't have to feed her the
>same brand's canned food. If she eats RC LP but won't eat the pouch, it's
>okay to give her another company's canned food.


RC now owns IVD too.


Kelcey

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Corey Kaye
February 19th 06, 10:27 PM
LMR via CatKB.com wrote:

> When one of my cats doesn't eat his canned, I put a little treat on
> top or sprinkle some catnip on it; either of those get him going.

I tried the catnip--worked the first time, but hasn't worked since. :(

> Some cats like pouch foods but some don't - she may be one of them.
> Canned is more blended together which some cats prefer. You could
> try the Hill's k/d "with chicken". There is another canned k/d
> formula too but the one that says "with chicken" is softer and
> mushier. The IVD Modified Protein canned food is very high in fat -
> she may like that. You don't have to feed her the same brand's
> canned food. If she eats RC LP but won't eat the pouch, it's okay to
> give her another company's canned food.

Thanks for the tips; I'll give those other brands a try.

> You could also mix some regular canned non-kidney food in with it at
> first to see if she likes that, then reduce the regular canned a
> little bit each day until all you have left eventually is the kidney
> diet. This is a slower process than just giving her the kidney diet
> right away but may work better.

Well, she's NEVER eaten canned, so I have doubts if any canned would appeal
to her. It's all very frustrating--when she was a kitten, the vets said
canned food was Bad News and to only feed dry. Now a lot of the vets I've
spoken too say to feed only high-quality wet, and no dry at all. I recall
that someone posted the nutritional content of Fancy Feast recently, but
can't seem to locate the link. Does anyone have it saved?

In addition, she vomited a whole stomach's worth of food after getting her
100cc's of sub-q fluids today. Sigh. I'm looking forward to getting her
bloodwork back tomorrow and having a long conversation with my vets.

Thanks for the advice,

Corey

Corey Kaye
February 19th 06, 10:28 PM
Kelcey via CatKB.com wrote:

> RC now owns IVD too.

My bag of Royal Canin has three brands on it: Royal Canin, IVD and Waltham.
;)

Corey

Kelcey via CatKB.com
February 19th 06, 11:00 PM
>My bag of Royal Canin has three brands on it: Royal Canin, IVD and Waltham.

Yup, RC acquired Waltham too.


Kelcey

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Rene S.
February 20th 06, 09:21 PM
I went through this with my cat (who only had eaten dry), and it was a
rough road, but I switched him over to all canned. I'd suggest giving
her a high-quality canned diet and skip the renal food. (such as
Wellness or Nature's Variety).

for tips on switching over, visit my web page. (I'm not a vet. These
are my own experiences.)

http://community-2.webtv.net/getcathelp/tucker/

NanCe via CatKB.com
February 21st 06, 01:52 AM
>rough road, but I switched him over to all canned. I'd suggest giving
>her a high-quality canned diet and skip the renal food. (such as
>Wellness or Nature's Variety).

It's irresponsible to say "skip the renal food" without even knowing anything
about this cat's condition! By the way, my sister's 23 year old renal cat is
probably still alive due to being fed renal food for the past 10 years.

NanCe

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Corey Kaye
February 21st 06, 03:52 AM
Rene S. wrote:

> I went through this with my cat (who only had eaten dry), and it was a
> rough road, but I switched him over to all canned. I'd suggest giving
> her a high-quality canned diet and skip the renal food. (such as
> Wellness or Nature's Variety).
>
> for tips on switching over, visit my web page. (I'm not a vet. These
> are my own experiences.)
>
> http://community-2.webtv.net/getcathelp/tucker/

Interesting reading!

Unfortunately, there's just no way I could do that. I have several other
cats that do very well on Innova dry food.

I think I'm giving up trying to get Ginger to eat wet food. She's just not
interested, and her bloodwork is continually improving with just the renal
diet and fluids.

Corey

Corey Kaye
February 21st 06, 03:52 AM
NanCe via CatKB.com wrote:

>> rough road, but I switched him over to all canned. I'd suggest giving
>> her a high-quality canned diet and skip the renal food. (such as
>> Wellness or Nature's Variety).
>
> It's irresponsible to say "skip the renal food" without even knowing
> anything about this cat's condition! By the way, my sister's 23 year
> old renal cat is probably still alive due to being fed renal food for
> the past 10 years.

Here's a brief run-down on Ginger:

She's an 8 year old DSH that, I believe, is highly inbred. I got her from
my hay guy, and she has several issues: missing teeth, poor vision, oddly
shapped legs and head, and her kidneys are about half normal size.

Her creatinine is 3.1, down from 3.7, which is down from 3.9. Her
phosphorus levels are low; her calcium levels are slightly elevated. The
creatinine labs are at roughly two week intervals. Initial labs were drawn
prior to a tooth extraction (one dead tooth in a mouthful of nice healthy
ones.) Urine was pulled at the time of the tooth extraction and she was
found to have a raging kidney infection, and we put her on 2 weeks of
Clavimox. Urine collected after the antibiotics showed nothing abnormal.

Two weeks ago, we switched Ginger from Innova dry food to Royal Canin Mature
27, and started with 100cc's sub-q twice a week. She's now eating RC Renal
LP.

I plan on pulling another set of labs in about a month, to see what
direction we're heading. She's acting more like a normal kitty since we
resolved the kidney infection and added the fluids. I'm not sure how the
food is affecting her, but figure it must be helping her kidneys.

She's in good weight--certainly not overweight, but not thin, either.

Corey

Rene S.
February 21st 06, 06:35 PM
NanCe via CatKB.com wrote:
> >rough road, but I switched him over to all canned. I'd suggest giving
> >her a high-quality canned diet and skip the renal food. (such as
> >Wellness or Nature's Variety).
>
> It's irresponsible to say "skip the renal food" without even knowing anything
> about this cat's condition! By the way, my sister's 23 year old renal cat is
> probably still alive due to being fed renal food for the past 10 years.
>
> NanCe
>
Why would you feed a cat with kidney failure dry food when it already
needs extra fluids? My point was that it would be better for this cat
to eat a high-quality canned food than a dry food that greatly reduces
its fluid intake?

Rene

NanCe via CatKB.com
February 21st 06, 07:52 PM
>Why would you feed a cat with kidney failure dry food when it already
>needs extra fluids? My point was that it would be better for this cat
>to eat a high-quality canned food than a dry food that greatly reduces
>its fluid intake?

It would *not* be better for this cat to eat a regular canned food over a dry
renal food. As long as a cat drinks water, a dry food is fine. When it eats
canned food, it drinks less water as canned is 70+% moisture. When it eats
dry, it drinks more water as dry is only 10% moisture. Therefore, as long as
it's water intake is good, dry is fine. Again as an example, my sister's
renal cat has been eating dry renal food for 10 years and she only started
getting canned renal food a couple of years ago, not to increase her water
intake as she is a good drinker, but because she likes canned.

By the way not sure why you suggested Wellness or Nature's Variety instead of
a canned renal food. They are not made for renal disease.

NanCe

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NanCe via CatKB.com
February 21st 06, 07:59 PM
>She's an 8 year old DSH that, I believe, is highly inbred. I got her from
>my hay guy, and she has several issues: missing teeth, poor vision, oddly
>shapped legs and head, and her kidneys are about half normal size.

Ah, poor little girl; just makes her sound more lovable though.

>Her creatinine is 3.1, down from 3.7, which is down from 3.9. Her
>phosphorus levels are low; her calcium levels are slightly elevated. The
>creatinine labs are at roughly two week intervals. Initial labs were drawn
>prior to a tooth extraction (one dead tooth in a mouthful of nice healthy
>ones.) Urine was pulled at the time of the tooth extraction and she was
>found to have a raging kidney infection, and we put her on 2 weeks of
>Clavimox. Urine collected after the antibiotics showed nothing abnormal.

That's good it's cleared up.

>I plan on pulling another set of labs in about a month, to see what
>direction we're heading. She's acting more like a normal kitty since we
>resolved the kidney infection and added the fluids. I'm not sure how the
>food is affecting her, but figure it must be helping her kidneys.

Good idea. Who knows, maybe the numbers will have come down now that the
kidney infection has been resolved. The fluids and food can be helping too.
It'll be interesting to see her numbers next month, bet you can't wait!

NanCe

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Rene S.
February 21st 06, 08:17 PM
Quoted from
http://www.felinecrf.org/nutritional_requirements.htm#dry_v_wet_food:
As desert animals, healthy cats do not naturally drink a lot, instead
they obtain moisture from their prey (a mouse, for example, is around
65-70% water); and whilst cats who eat dry food do tend to drink more
than cats fed on wet food, they simply cannot take in as much moisture
overall as a cat fed on tinned food. This was known back in 1986, when
the US Board of Agriculture stated in an article entitled Nutrient
Requirements of Cats.

More recently, an article entitled The carnivore connection to
nutrition in cats (no abstract provided, but the document may be found
here, or here in pdf format) (2002) Zoran D Journal of the American
Veterinary Medical Association 221 pp1559-67 states:
*
"cats eating commercial dry foods will consume approximately half the
amount of water (in their diet and through drinking), compared with
cats eating canned foods... In older cats that tend to produce urine
with a lower concentration, an increase in water consumption becomes
even more important to avoid dehydration and development of prerenal
azotaemia".

cybercat
February 21st 06, 08:54 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in message
ups.com...
Quoted from
http://www.felinecrf.org/nutritional_requirements.htm#dry_v_wet_food:
As desert animals, healthy cats do not naturally drink a lot, instead
they obtain moisture from their prey (a mouse, for example, is around
65-70% water); and whilst cats who eat dry food do tend to drink more
than cats fed on wet food, they simply cannot take in as much moisture
overall as a cat fed on tinned food. This was known back in 1986, when
the US Board of Agriculture stated in an article entitled Nutrient
Requirements of Cats.

More recently, an article entitled The carnivore connection to
nutrition in cats (no abstract provided, but the document may be found
here, or here in pdf format) (2002) Zoran D Journal of the American
Veterinary Medical Association 221 pp1559-67 states:

"cats eating commercial dry foods will consume approximately half the
amount of water (in their diet and through drinking), compared with
cats eating canned foods... In older cats that tend to produce urine
with a lower concentration, an increase in water consumption becomes
even more important to avoid dehydration and development of prerenal
azotaemia".

yep. Wet food is healthier all the way around. I can see the results of
cutting
out dry food.

NanCe via CatKB.com
February 21st 06, 09:18 PM
>"cats eating commercial dry foods will consume approximately half the
>amount of water (in their diet and through drinking), compared with
>cats eating canned foods... In older cats that tend to produce urine
>with a lower concentration, an increase in water consumption becomes
>even more important to avoid dehydration and development of prerenal
>azotaemia".

Well, eating dry renal food certainly never hurt my sister's cat; 23 is a
ripe old age and she's still doing fine. If you believe his cat should eat
canned, that's fine, but you didn't suggest a canned renal food to him - you
suggested Wellness or Nature's Recipe. Those were not made for renal disease
and why anyone would suggest them to someone with a cat in possible renal
failure is beyond me.

NanCe

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Corey Kaye
February 22nd 06, 01:26 AM
Rene S. wrote:

> "cats eating commercial dry foods will consume approximately half the
> amount of water (in their diet and through drinking), compared with
> cats eating canned foods... In older cats that tend to produce urine
> with a lower concentration, an increase in water consumption becomes
> even more important to avoid dehydration and development of prerenal
> azotaemia".

....which is why Ginger is getting sub-q fluids ;) She also drinks well.

Corey