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February 20th 06, 08:51 PM
My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.

She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.

He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.

My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.

Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).

Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).


Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).

Thanks!

John Doe
February 20th 06, 09:25 PM
mrcoyote gmail.com wrote:

> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>
> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she
> followed and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and
> held her down to the ground (had to use force) while he left the
> room.
>
> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the
> cat, she then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out
> and growling.
>
> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just
> above the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat
> seems fine now, but she is being kept away from the other family
> members.
>
> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a
> fostered cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't
> great 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of
> injury).
>
> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our
> kids).

I'm glad the cat didn't claw your son's eyes, it can happen.

.... after secluding the cat and treating the wounds, the first thing
to do is clip your cat's claws, the best time is upon waking it up
from a nap. It's really not too difficult. I put the thing between
my legs and sit on it with its head pointing towards my knees and my
feet keeping it from scooting away backwards. If sunlight isn't
available, a flashlight might help. Also, you might want to put on
glasses or goggles before you wake it from a nap to clip its claws.
Do it regularly.

.... keep in mind that giving your cat away is better than declawing
it

.... take care of your 12-year-old cat, in case it's stressed out

Good luck.




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> From: mrcoyote gmail.com
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> Subject: cat went crazy... can she be trusted?
> Date: 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800
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PawsForThought
February 20th 06, 09:32 PM
wrote:
> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.

Sounds like misplaced aggression. Perhaps the cat saw another animal
outside, and took the aggression out on your other cat, then your son.
I would definitely supervise until you're sure the cat won't attack
again. I'm sure your son is quite traumatized over the event. You can
explain how animals sometimes get too excited but that she didn't mean
to take it out on him. Be supervising when they do have contact again.
You may also wish to contact an animal behaviorist to find out the
best way to deal with this situation. As someone else mentioned,
declawing the cat will probably just make her a biter, and cat bites
can be much worse than scratches. Also, declawing involves the
amputation of the last digit of each toe in order to remove the claw.

February 20th 06, 10:51 PM
wrote:
> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>


It sounds like a possible case of misplaced agression. They see
something that they cannot fight, such as an outdoor cat, and then turn
on somebody that they can attack in the house.

It may also be a leftover issue with the foster cat. I have one cat
that likes to attack another cat. After I got Jay Jay, Chase had a new
buddy to play with, and his attacks on Kira became very rare. Things
were fine. Then, on saturday, I took Jay Jay to a cat show. I came home
and discovered tufts of Kira hair near the litter box and a pee spot on
the other side of the room. Chase ambushed her in the box. Why?
Probably because he was bored. The second day of the show, I left Kira
downstairs and Chase upstairs to prevent any problems while Jay Jay was
gone.

Did you actually witness the start of the event? I know this is hard,
but it is possible that your son witnessed the attack, and either
stepped into it, attempting to separate them, or he reacted by yelling,
screaming, or flailing; and that attracted the cat's anger toward him.
It's not something we can prevent since a 5 year old wouldn't know
better. But the cat may not have been as agressive had it just been the
two cats and nobody else arround. If that is the case, then you can
probably just make sure your son isn't alone with the cat until he is a
little older or you know your cat is okay.



There are also other possibilities. I would take her to the vet and
have her checked out. My dog, who is normally a sweet docile dog, will
growl and bite if the other dog gets too rough with her. And she
doesn't stop with a single bite. She keeps at it, like she is freaked
out. I have to bear hug her and settle her down. I've seen her go from
play to attack because the other dog jumped and landed on her back. If
your cat has any kind of injury or illness, she might be reacting in
pain, in a panicky way.

Also, there are some brain disorders that can cause problems. It has
been seen more in people since we animals don't get examined as much.
But certain brain tumors and illnesses will cause violence.

These are things that should be ruled out.

As for what you can do right now, I would keep her separated and calm.
Your vet can give her medication to calm her down. If your vet doesn't
think that is neccesary, you can try some herbal supplements like
Rescue Remedy. They don't work for everybody, but they won't cause any
harm either.

If you don't already, trim her nails. Declawing might sound like an
option, but don't consider it. Not only is it inhumane (they cut off
the last digit of the toe, like cutting off the whole tip of your
fingers), but declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting. And
bites are worse than scratches. They are deeper, and also more likely
to get infected. If you take away her claws, and she has another
episode like this, she will feel forced to attack with her teeth.

mlbriggs
February 20th 06, 11:23 PM
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:

> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>
> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>
> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
> then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
>
> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>
> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
>
> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
>
> Thanks!


FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
history. MLB

cybercat
February 20th 06, 11:42 PM
"mlbriggs" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
>
> > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> > serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
> >
> > She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> > and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
> > the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
> >
> > He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
> > then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
> >
> > My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> > the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
> > now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
> >
> > Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
> > cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> > 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
> >
> > Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> > inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
> >
> >
> > Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
> > obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
> > attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
> > long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>
> FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
> history. MLB

How horrible is that. So, how long has your child been in prison?

February 21st 06, 12:13 AM
mlbriggs wrote:

> FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
> history. MLB

What if that animal was provoked by the child? I got the impression
from the original poster that she did not actually witness the
beginning of this. Otherwise, why did the child have to run to her? If
she was there, she would have been the one breaking up the cats, and
she would have described how that happened and how the cat suddenly
went after the child.

I think it is much more likely that the child was startled by the cats,
and reacted by screaming or flailing, and that is what misdirected the
agression toward him. It's like breaking up a fight between dogs. The
person is just as likely to get injured as the dogs.

In this case, it was a small child who didn't know better and probably
reacted in a way that made the situation worse.

If you give up the cat with the explanation of being violent, it will
most likely end up bein euthanized. Is that fair to a cat when the
situation wasn't even seen by an adult?


Here's another example. A neighbor kid was visiting and tried to squash
my cat. The kid was only 5 or 6 years old, but was trying to sit on my
cat. He didn't get attacked. I was able to rescue my cat before
anything worse happened. But had my cat attacked him, it would have
been a fair response. And the fault would have been the mother's for
letting her kid sit on my cat.

Another situation. Years ago, my youngest neice was a terror to
animals. She pulled tails, grabbed ears, etc. She totally ignored us,
and her mom wasn't doing anything about it. We warned her, and she got
scratched. Not too seriously, but enough to make her cry. I did not
feel sorry for her. After that, whenever they pulled in the driveway,
all animals were locked away for their safety. And the girls were not
allowed in the basement. No way did I want that terror near my animals.
My niece is 13 years old now, and she has never spent the night at our
house. We simply cannot watch her 24/7, and we do not trust her with
animals. She can come for visits, but never overnight.

It is very frustrating to see on the news that a dog attacks a child,
and the dog has to be euthanized, yet the child was in the dog's yard
without supervision, and nobody knows what actually happened. We punish
the animal automatically even though it could easily have been provoked
by the "victim".

Spot
February 21st 06, 12:32 AM
Any 12 or 13 year old that can not be trusted around animals has serious
issues and needs help. If this is truely the case and nothing is done to
intervene you are looking at a future member of the prison population. The
abuse starts out directed at animals and escalates to humans eventually.



> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> mlbriggs wrote:
>
>> FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
>> history. MLB
>
> What if that animal was provoked by the child? I got the impression
> from the original poster that she did not actually witness the
> beginning of this. Otherwise, why did the child have to run to her? If
> she was there, she would have been the one breaking up the cats, and
> she would have described how that happened and how the cat suddenly
> went after the child.
>
> I think it is much more likely that the child was startled by the cats,
> and reacted by screaming or flailing, and that is what misdirected the
> agression toward him. It's like breaking up a fight between dogs. The
> person is just as likely to get injured as the dogs.
>
> In this case, it was a small child who didn't know better and probably
> reacted in a way that made the situation worse.
>
> If you give up the cat with the explanation of being violent, it will
> most likely end up bein euthanized. Is that fair to a cat when the
> situation wasn't even seen by an adult?
>
>
> Here's another example. A neighbor kid was visiting and tried to squash
> my cat. The kid was only 5 or 6 years old, but was trying to sit on my
> cat. He didn't get attacked. I was able to rescue my cat before
> anything worse happened. But had my cat attacked him, it would have
> been a fair response. And the fault would have been the mother's for
> letting her kid sit on my cat.
>
> Another situation. Years ago, my youngest neice was a terror to
> animals. She pulled tails, grabbed ears, etc. She totally ignored us,
> and her mom wasn't doing anything about it. We warned her, and she got
> scratched. Not too seriously, but enough to make her cry. I did not
> feel sorry for her. After that, whenever they pulled in the driveway,
> all animals were locked away for their safety. And the girls were not
> allowed in the basement. No way did I want that terror near my animals.
> My niece is 13 years old now, and she has never spent the night at our
> house. We simply cannot watch her 24/7, and we do not trust her with
> animals. She can come for visits, but never overnight.
>
> It is very frustrating to see on the news that a dog attacks a child,
> and the dog has to be euthanized, yet the child was in the dog's yard
> without supervision, and nobody knows what actually happened. We punish
> the animal automatically even though it could easily have been provoked
> by the "victim".
>

February 21st 06, 12:42 AM
"declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw

I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
possibly not have the good life they do now.

BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.

Sherri
February 21st 06, 12:46 AM
oh.......... you can use "softpaws" on your cat, they even come in
colors. (they are plastic tips that fit over the claw to keep the cat
or dog from scratching)

February 21st 06, 01:08 AM
Spot wrote:
> Any 12 or 13 year old that can not be trusted around animals has serious
> issues and needs help. If this is truely the case and nothing is done to
> intervene you are looking at a future member of the prison population. The
> abuse starts out directed at animals and escalates to humans eventually.
>

I agree with you there.

Back when this started, she was much younger, and we strongly
encouraged her mother to get professional help. She was diagnosed with
attention deficit and put on medication. She is still well behind in
school, refuses to do homework etc. I worry about her future, but all
we can do is offer advice and support. They live 2 hours away, so we
cannot take her for short visits.

I wish there was more we could do, but we don't have that much
influence on her. She and my brother did not marry, and my nieces are
with the husband, not my brother. Most of our contact is because of my
nephew, who is now 19 and lives with us. So, it's not as much as it
used to be.

She is currently 13, and she has been good with the animals during her
visits for the past 2 years (which shocked us), but we do not trust her
unsupervised. She may be over it, but it is not a risk we are willing
to take.



Her older sister is fine, and my nephew lives with us and is great with
animals. He's actually my assistant with animal photos. He's great at
working the animals, and he knows what I want. I don't have to tell him
much.

NMR
February 21st 06, 01:15 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>

What apparently? Did you or someone else witness this or did the 5 year old
tell you. An animal is not going to turn on you unless you did something
such as got in the middle of the fight or messed with it some way to over
stimulant it or harm it some way. But from what I am reading something
more is going on or you did not describe the whole situation fully.

> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>

The cat did not attack you I take it and I am not talking about making a
cat-er waling fuss. You would have not been able to hold a true attacking
cat without it giving you a piece of it mind.

> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
> then took off immediately in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
>
This is where you need to think about what you said" why would a the cat
take off after the 5 year old unless something was done by the 5 year old.
If the cat was having misplaced aggression from attacking the other cat.
You would have been the target from holding it down. Think about this
carefully the cat would have attacked you. Did it?

> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>

Make sure you clean the cuts out real good and watch the cuts for infection.
How deep are the cuts are stitches going to be necessary. If not try liquid
Band-Aid I wish they would have had this when our kids were young.


> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).

Cats do this if there is not injury either is play or dominance factor


> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>

Yes it sounds like there is more going on than the 5 year old is telling
you


> Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
>
> Thanks!
>

I may be wrong IMO but when it comes to young children and small animals
you suspect the child first if a problem happens. Specially a 5 year old
they are very curious and get into things as any parent will tell you. It
sounds like the 5 year old got messing with the cat maybe got the cat over
stimulated or got in the middle of something and found out just what it
means to mess the cat. Lesson Learned hopefully to many of us know about
this growing up when the furball showed us who was boss when we messed with
them.

If you are worried about the cat I would take the cat to the vet and have
some blood work done to rule out a medical factor. But it sounds like a
child being in the wrong place do something that all children do best not
knowing not to do it .

Please if you think you need to declaw the cat because of this give the cat
to a loving home instead. Declawing is never the answer. If you don't know
what declawing pertains someone out here will gladly give you the truth on
the horrors of what is done to a cat to have them declawed


Matthew

cybercat
February 21st 06, 01:23 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>
> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>
> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>

I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch
more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have not
been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you.

-L.
February 21st 06, 01:32 AM
wrote:
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw

That has to be a lie. I cannot tell you how many reports we have had
of aggression after declaw surgery. Let me guess - you're a
receptionist.


>
> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it.

Cats cannot tear up a chair in one night. Sure, they probably
scratched it - because they had no alternative that was more appealing.
If your dickhead husband wanted to get rid of your kids would you do
that, too?


I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.

You mutilated your cats. Declawing is partial digital amputation. Not
only did you remove the nail and the nail bed, but you removed the
distal phalanx - the last bone in the paw. It is this bone that the
cat uses to walk on. So now your cat is forced to walk on his pads and
the ends of the bones which were not designed for bearing weight.
Congratulations - you took the lazy person's way out of a situation
that could easily have been solved by buying appropriate scratching
tools and/or by using Softpaws.

-L.

-L.
February 21st 06, 01:41 AM
wrote:
> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.

Displaced aggression. Let me guess - your son was right there in the
middle of the frey...

>
> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>
> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
> then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.

Because you smacked her and held her down...

>
> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>
> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
>
> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.

NEVER leave a 5 year old alone with any animal. NEVER.

We don't want to part with her, but
> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).

You caused this incident, indirectly. You kept the cats together
despite them fighting. You gave away the one cat, which changed the
dynamic between the other two. You allowed your child free access to
the cats. You then exascerbated the situation by smacking your cat and
holding her down. Your cat is stressed out - what she needs is love
and attention in a stress-free environment - no other animals, no kids.
Do what you have to do to make that happen, before you reintroduce her
to your other cat or your child.

I would suggest rehoming the cat because she is clearly not happy where
she is, but I don't trust you to have any judgment when it comes to
placing her in the right kind of home.

Call your local Humane Society and ask to talk to a cat behavioral
specialist - they can either have someone call you back or give you the
number of a professional.

-L.

Rescue
February 21st 06, 02:43 AM
wrote:
> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
....right there to stop it).
>
> Thanks!

there is no way you are telling everything
i can hear it in your typing

tell it all, and maybe you get some help

NMR
February 21st 06, 02:48 AM
Barry keep that display signature it fit you

mr coyote
February 21st 06, 04:01 AM
Wow.. thanks for the many replies I've gotten... most are well
received, but a few I'm not to sure about- some of you people really
read into things and perhaps need to relax a little bit.

The story is as I initially wrote. I put "apparently attacked my
siamese" as that is what my son said he saw - from a distance away
(the cats at the top of the stairs, he at the bottom). No, I wasn't
there, I was cooking breakfast for my son.... should I be shadowing him
hand in hand because we have two cats in the house that have _never_
had an agression problem before? Perhaps I'm a bad parent for not
being attached to my son's hip on any given second of the day.

Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
(obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).

Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.

NMR
February 21st 06, 04:12 AM
"mr coyote" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow.. thanks for the many replies I've gotten... most are well
> received, but a few I'm not to sure about- some of you people really
> read into things and perhaps need to relax a little bit.
>
> The story is as I initially wrote. I put "apparently attacked my
> siamese" as that is what my son said he saw - from a distance away
> (the cats at the top of the stairs, he at the bottom). No, I wasn't
> there, I was cooking breakfast for my son.... should I be shadowing him
> hand in hand because we have two cats in the house that have _never_
> had an agression problem before? Perhaps I'm a bad parent for not
> being attached to my son's hip on any given second of the day.
>

far from a bad parent you are just like the rest of us if we were attached
to our kids hips they would never leave home

> Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
> stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
> differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).

Don't get rid of the cat i doubt you will have a problem again if so you
know where to begin at ;-) keep us posted


>
> Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
> do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.
>

John Doe
February 21st 06, 04:24 AM
Or maybe you declawed them because it ate your birds?

And maybe you didn't give them away because you are selfish or just
not smart enough to know that claws are to a cat like your fingers
are to you?

Lying troll.


CoastieOhana yahoo.com wrote:

> Path: newssvr14.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. com!newsdbm03.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.c om!198.186.190.247.MISMATCH!news-out.readnews.com!news-xxxfer.readnews.com!postnews.google.com!g43g2000cw a.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: CoastieOhana yahoo.com
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> Subject: Re: cat went crazy... can she be trusted?
> Date: 20 Feb 2006 16:42:11 -0800
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Lines: 14
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> Mime-Version: 1.0
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> Xref: prodigy.net rec.pets.cats.health+behav:424655
>
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>
> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>
> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>
>
>

Rescue
February 21st 06, 04:38 AM
John Doe wrote:
> Or maybe you declawed them because it ate your birds?
>
> And maybe you didn't give them away because you are selfish or just
> not smart enough to know that claws are to a cat like your fingers
> are to you?
>
> Lying troll.

heh
you never can tell!

have you thought about selling ladies handbags on ebay?

February 21st 06, 05:16 AM
mr coyote wrote:

> The story is as I initially wrote. I put "apparently attacked my
> siamese" as that is what my son said he saw - from a distance away
> (the cats at the top of the stairs, he at the bottom). No, I wasn't
> there, I was cooking breakfast for my son.... should I be shadowing him
> hand in hand because we have two cats in the house that have _never_
> had an agression problem before? Perhaps I'm a bad parent for not
> being attached to my son's hip on any given second of the day.
>

Not at all. Nobody expects to shadow a child every moment, and without
a prior history, you would not expect a problem with the cat.

But the facts remain the same. You did not witness the event, so it is
unfair, and probably wrong to blame the cat. In most cases of an animal
"attacking" a child, the child did something (often by accident or
ignorance) that caused the animal to react in an agressive way. It
could be something intentional like poking the cat or grabbing an ear.
Or something as innocent as running by in a hurry. In your case, he
probably saw the cats fighting and reacted by screaming (a child's high
pitched voice is not very calming), or he stepped into it, innocently
trying to help. He didn't know any better. Nobody's fault.

The point is that your initial point sounded like you are blaming the
cat when you don't know what really happened, and most people's
experience with small children and animals is that the child did
something to provoke the animal.

So, keep them separated for awhile, unless you can supervise, and let
both of them get over this incident.


> Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> new loving home if this is what it comes down to.

If you do that, don't get another one until your son is older.


If she ended up
> stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
> differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).

And all children tell the truth, right? The whole truth? He feels he is
going to get in trouble, so he may not tell the whole story. Also, he's
only 5 years old. He may not even *know* the whole story. Sure, he may
not have been near then when the fight started. But cats don't stay
still when they are fighting. They run. And if they ran toward him, or
he moved toward them, he could easily end up in the middle, even if he
didn't start there.

>
> Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
> do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.

mlbriggs
February 21st 06, 06:05 AM
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:01:36 -0800, mr coyote wrote:

> Wow.. thanks for the many replies I've gotten... most are well
> received, but a few I'm not to sure about- some of you people really
> read into things and perhaps need to relax a little bit.
>
> The story is as I initially wrote. I put "apparently attacked my
> siamese" as that is what my son said he saw - from a distance away
> (the cats at the top of the stairs, he at the bottom). No, I wasn't
> there, I was cooking breakfast for my son.... should I be shadowing him
> hand in hand because we have two cats in the house that have _never_
> had an agression problem before? Perhaps I'm a bad parent for not
> being attached to my son's hip on any given second of the day.
>
> Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
> stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
> differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).
>
> Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
> do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.


IMHO a wise move. As much as we love our pets, our little ones come
first. MLB

mlbriggs
February 21st 06, 06:13 AM
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 00:42:54 +0100, cybercat wrote:

>
> "mlbriggs" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
>>
>> > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
>> > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
>> > serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>> >
>> > She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
>> > and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
>> > the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>> >
>> > He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
>> > then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
>> >
>> > My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
>> > the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
>> > now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>> >
>> > Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
>> > cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
>> > 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
>> >
>> > Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
>> > inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>> >
>> >
>> > Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
>> > obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
>> > attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
>> > long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>>
>>
>> FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
>> history. MLB
>
> How horrible is that. So, how long has your child been in prison?

What an asinine question. Grow up. MLB

cybercat
February 21st 06, 06:17 AM
"mlbriggs" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 00:42:54 +0100, cybercat wrote:
>
> >
> > "mlbriggs" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
> >>
> >> > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> >> > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> >> > serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
> >> >
> >> > She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> >> > and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down
to
> >> > the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
> >> >
> >> > He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat,
she
> >> > then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
> >> >
> >> > My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> >> > the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems
fine
> >> > now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
> >> >
> >> > Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a
fostered
> >> > cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> >> > 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
> >> >
> >> > Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> >> > inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her,
but
> >> > obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns
and
> >> > attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and
how
> >> > long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
> >> >
> >> > Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >> FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
> >> history. MLB
> >
> > How horrible is that. So, how long has your child been in prison?
>
> What an asinine question. Grow up. MLB
>

Oh, I see. If your 5-year-old (who would now be, what, 55?) was attacked by
an animal you would kill or otherwise dispose of the animal. Sorry, I
misunderstood.
Thanks for clarifying.

hildagirl
February 21st 06, 07:01 AM
iam so sorry to hear of the cats distress and your young childs injury
i do love animals very much however i love children more and i do
believe your childs safety should be paramount i do feel removing the
foster cat has some direct link with this issue

-L.
February 21st 06, 07:21 AM
mr coyote wrote:
> Wow.. thanks for the many replies I've gotten... most are well
> received, but a few I'm not to sure about- some of you people really
> read into things and perhaps need to relax a little bit.
>
> The story is as I initially wrote. I put "apparently attacked my
> siamese" as that is what my son said he saw - from a distance away
> (the cats at the top of the stairs, he at the bottom). No, I wasn't
> there, I was cooking breakfast for my son.... should I be shadowing him
> hand in hand because we have two cats in the house that have _never_
> had an agression problem before? Perhaps I'm a bad parent for not
> being attached to my son's hip on any given second of the day.

A five year old does not have the knowledge or impulse control to be
left alone with any animal.

>
> Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
> stressed out, I can't help that -

/me bangs head on wall...


>I'm not sure what we could do
> differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).

He was close enough, unsupervised, to get attacked.


>
> Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
> do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.

Please do not get any more cats.

-L.

Charlie Wilkes
February 21st 06, 12:03 PM
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 04:40:03 GMT, John Doe >
wrote:

>Margarita Salt <brandyalx kittylittercomcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm with you. I think getting rid of a pet you love is the last
>> resort AFTER declawing. I love Kami dearly, but she has had these
>> "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho,
>> but she's my "daughter." There's no one out there who would put
>> up with her, much less spoil her the way I have. It wouldn't be
>> fair, and she has forgiven me.
>
>Getting rid of your pet is what you do after you disable it. You
>can't cope now, and you can't cope with problems arising later. You
>take away its self-defense, its mode of play and exercise, and then
>you get rid of it.
>
>Wrong, you get rid of it before you disable it.
>
>If you can't cope with the claws, don't get the cat.
>
>A cats claws are the functional equivalent of our fingers.
>
Right. And you are a good example of why some people should be
de-fingered... so they don't type a constant stream of negative ****,
shredding the social upholstery, so to speak.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 21st 06, 12:07 PM
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:23:30 +0000, mlbriggs >
wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
>
>> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
>> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
>> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>>
>> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
>> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
>> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>>
>> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
>> then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
>>
>> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
>> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
>> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>>
>> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
>> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
>> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
>>
>> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
>> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
>> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
>> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
>> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
>>
>> Thanks!
>
>
>FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
>history. MLB

That's very bold and resolute, but kind of DUMB. Plenty of kids get a
minor mauling by the household cat.

Charlie

Rescue
February 21st 06, 12:39 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:

> Right. And you are a good example of why some people should be
> de-fingered... so they don't type a constant stream of negative ****,
> shredding the social upholstery, so to speak.

lol, lets just pay for every other finger to be removed

Alison
February 21st 06, 04:31 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.>>.

I'd have got rid of the husband.
Alison

Phil P.
February 21st 06, 07:15 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~


That statement is absolutely *true*.

J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001 Jan 1;218(1):43-7

The incidence of behavior problems following onychectomy in cats. two months
to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery.

(80%) had more than one medical complication.
(33%) developed at least one behavior problem.
(17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity.
(15.4%) would not use the litter box




I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,


You're lucky. Your cats just happened to be in segment of declawed cats that
don't develop behavioral problems- OTOH, your cats are still young...



> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw


Sure- I can certainly understand why people, whose cats developed behavioral
and/or medical problems after an unnecessary and inhumane procedure, would
be reluctant to complain and accept responsibility. After all, its *their*
fault. Also, vets aren't likely to mention post-declaw behavioral problems
because declawing represents a significant portion the clinic's revenue.

Maybe you should speak to people who work in animal shelters- the people who
take in the cats that are relinquished for post-declaw behavioral
problems--- like me. *All* of our declawed cats were relinquished because
of behavioral problems.


>
> I have very mixed feeling about declawing,


That's just your conscience trying to break through. You should listen to
conscience.


I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them


He gave you an ultimatum, eh? Sounds like a healthy relationship... Why
didn't you put *your* foot down and refuse? Are you that afraid to disobey
your
master's orders?

Phil P.
February 21st 06, 07:16 PM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...


I love Kami dearly, but she has had these
> "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho,

That's because you're a psycho crack whore and she never knows what to
expect from you-- a pat or a swat or kick-
especially when you can't "vent" in newsgroups and you *do* "take it out on
Kami". Kami's only problem is *you*.

I shudder at the thought of what you've done to that cat. You may fool the
naive and gullible with all your bull**** caring cat stories, but anyone
whose been in sheltering for awhile can see right through your bull****
stories. All your cat is to you is a means to get attention.

Phil P.
February 21st 06, 07:17 PM
"mr coyote" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
> stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
> differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).


You can't be serious. You'd relinquish a cat based on a story from a 5-year
old? The kid probably did something to the cat and is afraid to tell you.
Do you actually believe the kid would say "Mommy, I pulled the cat's tail
and she scratched me"??? I don't think so.



>
> Again, thanks for the replies... I'm still not sure what to do - but we
> do have a new home in line if that is what it comes down to.


You're setting a bad precedence. You're teaching your kid that he can
mistreat a cat and then lie about it and get away with it. Teaching your
kid to respect animals and how to treat them properly would be infinitely
more productive than getting rid of the cat and reinforcing your kid's
improper behavior.

PawsForThought
February 21st 06, 07:30 PM
wrote:
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw

Wonderful. I'm so glad to hear you mutilated your cats :( But hey,
they don't bite so who cares whether or not the poor animals had the
ends of their toes amputated.

> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it.

You're an idiot. I've had cats over 40 years and never had to resort
to declawing. Simple claw trimming and proper training is all that's
necessary, along with a nice sturdy cat tree/scratching post. But
wait, how silly of me. Of course your asshole husband's new chair is
more important than a living, feeling being!

I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.

Yeah, what a life - they had to have the ends of their toes amputated
to live in your house. The cats would have been MUCH better off being
placed in a home where they would have been respected, and not
mutilated by idiots like you and your asshole husband.

PawsForThought
February 21st 06, 07:30 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "mr coyote" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Anyway, I don't have plans to declaw her... right now, she is likely
> > going to be going to a new home - a quieter home where there aren't
> > children. The cat has been in a loving home since she was a kitten
> > (obtained from a shelter, I might add) and will no doubt be going to a
> > new loving home if this is what it comes down to. If she ended up
> > stressed out, I can't help that - I'm not sure what we could do
> > differently to have prevented that. We have a busy family (4 kids that
> > love the cats, but our 5 y/o enjoys playing - and I believe him when he
> > says he wasn't near the two when the fight occured).
>
>
> You can't be serious. You'd relinquish a cat based on a story from a 5-year
> old? The kid probably did something to the cat and is afraid to tell you.
> Do you actually believe the kid would say "Mommy, I pulled the cat's tail
> and she scratched me"??? I don't think so.

This reminds me of my first cat, a Siamese I got when I was 4 years
old. One day the cat scratched me and I went crying to my mom. The
first thing she said was "what did you do to the cat to make her
scratch you?" (I was trying to dress her up in doll clothes) Children
need to be taught to respect animals. I see too many kids these days
given free rein to do what they want. Parents think if they say "no"
that they're being a bad parent. Having animals is a responsibility
similar to having children. Only animals can't speak, so they need our
protection and our guidance in teaching children to treat them with
respect and kindness.

PawsForThought
February 21st 06, 07:33 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had
> > cats
> > my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of
> > my cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT
> > bite, nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital
> > that I work at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or
> > because of a declaw
> >
> > I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it
> > before.But my husband put his foot down and told me to get it done
> > or get rid of them after they torn his brand new chair up the same
> > night we got it. I chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving
> > them away and them possibly not have the good life they do now.
> >
> > BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
> >
> >
>
> I'm with you. I think getting rid of a pet you love is the last resort
> AFTER declawing. I love Kami dearly, but she has had these
> "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho, but
> she's my "daughter." There's no one out there who would put up with
> her, much less spoil her the way I have. It wouldn't be fair, and she
> has forgiven me.

Ahh, another asshole speaks! I'm sure your Kami was a nice cat before
you chose to mutilate her.
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

cybercat
February 21st 06, 07:45 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
> > "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> > my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> > cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> > nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> > at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>
> Wonderful. I'm so glad to hear you mutilated your cats :( But hey,
> they don't bite so who cares whether or not the poor animals had the
> ends of their toes amputated.
>
> > I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> > husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> > after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it.
>
> You're an idiot. I've had cats over 40 years and never had to resort
> to declawing. Simple claw trimming and proper training is all that's
> necessary, along with a nice sturdy cat tree/scratching post. But
> wait, how silly of me. Of course your asshole husband's new chair is
> more important than a living, feeling being!
>
> I
> > chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> > possibly not have the good life they do now.
>
> Yeah, what a life - they had to have the ends of their toes amputated
> to live in your house. The cats would have been MUCH better off being
> placed in a home where they would have been respected, and not
> mutilated by idiots like you and your asshole husband.
>

YAYmen, sistah!

PawsForThought
February 21st 06, 08:17 PM
wrote:

> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw

Gee, it wouldn't be because the vet hospital you work at makes $$$ from
declawing cats. Why would they even want to admit there's a relation
between declawing and biting? That would probably make them lose a lot
of their business.

BTW, biting is not the only side effect of declawing. Perhaps you
should educate yourself. But then you'd have to admit what you've done
to your poor cats.

Charlie Wilkes
February 21st 06, 10:16 PM
On 21 Feb 2006 02:23:56 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
>> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
>> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
>> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
>> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>>
>> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
>> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
>> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
>> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
>> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>>
>> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>>
>
>I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch
>more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have not
>been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you.
>

Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
rather spend on weed.

Charlie

cybercat
February 21st 06, 11:00 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Feb 2006 02:23:56 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> >> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> >> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> >> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> >> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
> >>
> >> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> >> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> >> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
> >> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> >> possibly not have the good life they do now.
> >>
> >> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
> >>
> >
> >I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch
> >more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have
not
> >been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you.
> >
>
> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> rather spend on weed.
>

<G> Well, Charlie, seeing as how getting him declawed will instantly restore
your chairs, I think you should reconsider.

Seriously, try this:

http://www.petdiscounters.com/product.php?productid=1157457&cat=299&page=1

It is what made my babies stop scratching the furniture.

CatNipped
February 21st 06, 11:30 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Feb 2006 02:23:56 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
>>> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
>>> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
>>> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
>>> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>>>
>>> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
>>> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
>>> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
>>> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
>>> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>>>
>>> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>>>
>>
>>I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch
>>more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have
>>not
>>been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you.
>>
>
> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> rather spend on weed.
>
> Charlie

Yep, and after smoking a joint or two, the state of your barca lounger
really doesn't seem all that important does it? ;>

--

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:20 AM
FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
about opinions..........

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:20 AM
FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
about opinions..........

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:22 AM
I have been forgiven too,take awhile :(

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:22 AM
I have been forgiven too,take awhile :(

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:23 AM
I have been forgiven too,take awhile :(

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:32 AM
Butt Wipe wrote~~~"That has to be a lie. I cannot tell you how many
reports we have had
of aggression after declaw surgery. Let me guess - you're a
receptionist".~~~~ No its not a lie, and NO I'm a vet tech!!

"Cats cannot tear up a chair in one night. Sure, they probably
scratched it - because they had no alternative that was more appealing.

If your dickhead husband wanted to get rid of your kids would you do
that, too?"~~~ My 2 cats torn the stuffing out the left arm of the
chair,they each had a scratching post. And NO,I won't get rid of my
BIRTH children.Like I said,I kept my other 2 kids.......my cats!

AND I DID MENTION GETTING SOFTPAWS INSTEAD OF DECLAWING!!!

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:41 AM
Did you stop banging your head against the wall yet? I hope not :>

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:42 AM
LOL!!!!

Rescue
February 22nd 06, 12:44 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> You can't be serious. You'd relinquish a cat based on a story from a 5-year
> old?

yes, the kid had it comin
its why I say, they ain't tellin everything

don't beat your head on the wall dude

this happens alot in the ghetto

a child will do horrible things to a neighbor, then when they come and
arrest the child, the mother will be out in the street acting like a
nut, pulling her hair beating her chest, screaming etc...it's not a
pretty site

there's another side to every story told

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 12:52 AM
DONT YOU EVER DISPECT ME!

My husband is not my "master".My husband is a very laid back person,so
when he did that I agree..........I agree maybe every couple of years
LOL!!

"(80%) had more than one medical complication. "
(33%) developed at least one behavior problem.
(17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity.
(15.4%) would not use the litter box

My cats are 3, they have NONE of the above.


"Maybe you should speak to people who work in animal shelters- the
people who
take in the cats that are relinquished for post-declaw behavioral
problems"~~~ Sure, I'll do that. Since I work there part time,and
still have not heard nor seen any declawed cats turned in for bad
(above habits)

"You should listen to conscience. "~~~ You are so right,it said never
to respond to such a jerk like again!

Sherri
February 22nd 06, 01:01 AM
LOL!!! people like you that judge people just make me laugh. Hey, I bet
your **** doesnt smell

mlbriggs
February 22nd 06, 01:27 AM
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:07:11 +0000, Charlie Wilkes wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:23:30 +0000, mlbriggs >
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
>>
>>> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
>>> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
>>> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
>>>
>>> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
>>> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to
>>> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
>>>
>>> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she
>>> then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
>>>
>>> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
>>> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
>>> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
>>>
>>> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered
>>> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
>>> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
>>>
>>> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
>>> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but
>>> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and
>>> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
>>> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
>>history. MLB
>
> That's very bold and resolute, but kind of DUMB. Plenty of kids get a
> minor mauling by the household cat.
>
> Charlie

If you can still see straight, go back and read the original post.

PawsForThought
February 22nd 06, 02:18 AM
Sherri wrote:
> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
> about opinions..........

I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion.
I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots.
Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training
techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to your
local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead, you
decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your
precious asshole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot assholes!!!

NanCe via CatKB.com
February 22nd 06, 03:31 AM
Sherri wrote:
>that, too?"~~~ My 2 cats torn the stuffing out the left arm of the
>chair,they each had a scratching post. And NO,I won't get rid of my

Our's used to scratch the back of our couch sometimes but we couldn't even
imagine declawing them. Our cats mean more to us than a stupid couch. I
don't get people like you who care more about material possessions than your
pets.

NanCe

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 03:51 AM
"mlbriggs" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:07:11 +0000, Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:23:30 +0000, mlbriggs >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote:
> >>
> >>> My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently
> >>> attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being
> >>> serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son.
> >>>
> >>> She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed
> >>> and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down
to
> >>> the ground (had to use force) while he left the room.
> >>>
> >>> He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat,
she
> >>> then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling.
> >>>
> >>> My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above
> >>> the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine
> >>> now, but she is being kept away from the other family members.
> >>>
> >>> Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a
fostered
> >>> cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great
> >>> 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury).
> >>>
> >>> Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate,
> >>> inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her,
but
> >>> obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns
and
> >>> attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how
> >>> long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it).
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >>FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be
> >>history. MLB
> >
> > That's very bold and resolute, but kind of DUMB. Plenty of kids get a
> > minor mauling by the household cat.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> If you can still see straight, go back and read the original post.
>

Condescending to Charlie may not be the best idea, you ignorant old woman.
I read the original post and his comment makes sense to me.

LMR via CatKB.com
February 22nd 06, 03:52 AM
>No its not a lie, and NO I'm a vet tech!!

And you've NEVER had a complaint from anyone after a declaw!? Yea, right!
Everything was just perfect afterwards for everyone and their cats!

>AND I DID MENTION GETTING SOFTPAWS INSTEAD OF DECLAWING!!!

Why didn't YOU use softpaws instead of declawing!!!


LMR

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 05:06 AM
On 21 Feb 2006 18:18:12 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
>Sherri wrote:
>> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
>> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
>> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
>> about opinions..........
>
>I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion.
>I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots.
>Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training
>techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to your
>local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead, you
>decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your
>precious asshole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot assholes!!!

Hysteria is not persuasive, doll.

Charlie

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 05:37 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Feb 2006 18:18:12 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >Sherri wrote:
> >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
> >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
> >> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
> >> about opinions..........
> >
> >I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion.
> >I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots.
> >Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training
> >techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to your
> >local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead, you
> >decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your
> >precious asshole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot assholes!!!
>
> Hysteria is not persuasive, doll.
>
> Charlie

No, but she's right. And it's a bit too late for persuasion, in this case,
isn't it Charlie?

And, hmmm, now that I take a closer look, just one blinking minute here ...
"hysteria?" Or just passion, genuine feeling that when there is a choice
other than surgical excision of the last joint of the toes, one should make
that choice?

Freud ****ed up with the whole "hysteria" deal, after all.
Most times I find this word being tossed about it is by bloodless freaks who
are trying to deny that we have any duty to actually exercise our humanity.
:) The higher parts, if you will.

But I am still calm. We can discuss it. Clearly, "Sherry with an I" chose to
mutilate her cats and is not sorry about it. Not one bit. After all, hubby
"put his foot down." Ooo, that is just soooo attractive, you know? Like,
come on, big fella, make me authorize the butchering of my cat's pretty
little feet, oo, yeah, that's what get's mama hot!"

Now Charlie comes in and portrays Lauren as "hysterial" because this bothers
her?

Perhaps. But I think her reaction is not limited to those who have uteri.
Us. You know what I mean.

Love, CC

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 05:43 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 00:00:20 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>> On 21 Feb 2006 02:23:56 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
>> >> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
>> >> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
>> >> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
>> >> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>> >>
>> >> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
>> >> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
>> >> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
>> >> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
>> >> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>> >>
>> >> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch
>> >more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have
>not
>> >been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you.
>> >
>>
>> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
>> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
>> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
>> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
>> rather spend on weed.
>>
>
><G> Well, Charlie, seeing as how getting him declawed will instantly restore
>your chairs, I think you should reconsider.
>
>Seriously, try this:
>
>http://www.petdiscounters.com/product.php?productid=1157457&cat=299&page=1
>
>It is what made my babies stop scratching the furniture.
>
He only scratched the chair once, several weeks ago. I didn't see him
do it. The damage was not significant.

I may be imagining things, but Tweaker seems to be more socially aware
than most cats. He may have corrected his own behavior as soon as he
saw what he was doing. Or maybe not, but he only did it once and he
has had lots of opportunities.

His favorite scratch these days is the edge of the cushion I sit on in
front of the computer, made out of canvas. It's a good thing for him
to ruin because it's cheap. He knows it's ok, because he does it
right in front of me, and I don't object.

All in all, I can't really justify the expense of declawing him at
this point in time.

Charlie

-L.
February 22nd 06, 05:48 AM
Sherri wrote:
> DONT YOU EVER DISPECT ME!

Don't worry, Hon. We won't "dispect" you, just because your cats "torn
the stuffing out" the arm of your chair.

(And she says she's a vet tech...)

We'll just despise you since you selfishly mutilated your cats.

>
> My husband is not my "master".My husband is a very laid back person,so
> when he did that I agree..........I agree maybe every couple of years
> LOL!!
>
> "(80%) had more than one medical complication. "
> (33%) developed at least one behavior problem.
> (17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity.
> (15.4%) would not use the litter box
>
> My cats are 3, they have NONE of the above.
>
>
> "Maybe you should speak to people who work in animal shelters- the
> people who
> take in the cats that are relinquished for post-declaw behavioral
> problems"~~~ Sure, I'll do that. Since I work there part time,and
> still have not heard nor seen any declawed cats turned in for bad
> (above habits)
>
> "You should listen to conscience. "~~~ You are so right,it said never
> to respond to such a jerk like again!

Well, your "experience" is not the same as every other vet tech and
shelter worker who has ever frequented this newsgroup.

Since you didn't like Phil's data, how about these:

1. "Four percent of the cats began to defecate out of box and
12% began to bite after onychectomy."
ref: Bennett M, Houpt KA, Erb HN. Effects of declawing on feline
behavior. Comp Anim Pract 1988;2:7-12.

2. Retrospective survey of 887 cat owners from private practices.
Clients were asked to fill out a survey on the incidence of aggressive
behaviors in their cats. "Twenty three percent of declawed cats
bit family members; 2.3% of each seriously enough for medical
attention."
ref: Borchelt PL, Voith VL. Aggressive behavior in cats. Compend
Contin Educ Pract Vet 1987;9:49-57.

3. "Twenty four percent of the cats had short-term postoperative
complications including, two hemorrhage, one infection, and one change
in behavior. Mean and median days until walking normally were 6.3 and
7 days, respectively, range 1-21 days. One cat did not walk
normally for 180 days."
ref: Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, et al. Comparison of effects of
elective tenectomy or onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc
1998;213:370-373.

4. Retrospective written survey of private practice clients. Owners
reported that "34% had discomfort post-surgically, primarily
tenderness (78%). Cats done > 1 yr had more post-surgical discomfort;
41% were still allowed outdoors. 4% reported a possible increase in
biting or harder biting."
ref: Landsberg GM. Cat owners'; attitudes toward declawing.
Anthrozoos 1991;4:192-197

5. Retrospective mail survey of veterinarians. 320/400 returned
questionnaires. "78.4% of the vets did not advocate declawing. 47%
veterinarians' recollections indicated no problems, 53% reported
complications; 24.9% reported nail regrowth, 9.9% reported
additional long term problems."
ref: Landsberg GM. Declawing is controversial but saves pets. A
veterinarian survey. Vet Forum 1991;8:66-67.

6. Assessment of complications seven days and six months post-surgery,
in a clinical setting. Two techniques for onychectomy and two
adhesives for wound closure were compared. "66% of the cats returned
for both one week and six-month clinician rechecks. Lameness occurred
in 21% of all cats. Dehiscence (opening of the wound) occurred in 34%
of all cats."
ref: Martinez SA, Hauptmann J, Walshaw R. Comparing two techniques for
onychectomy in cats and two adhesives for wound closure. Vet Med 1993;
88:516-525.

7. Cross sectional internet survey. "19.6% cats in the study were
declawed. Complication rates after declawing were not reported.
Declawed cats showed more house soiling (25%)."
ref: Morgan M, Houpt KA. Feline behavior problems: the influence of
declawing. Anthrozoos 1989;3:50-53.

8. Case-control study of owned and relinquished cats involving a
random digit dial (phone) survey of cat owners. "Prevalence of
declawing was 45%(476/1056) in the owned cat population. Among 218
cats relinquished to a shelter, more (52.4%) declawed cats than
non-declawed cats (29.1%) were reported by owners to have
inappropriate elimination".
ref: Patronek, GJ, Glickman LT, Beck AM, et al. Risk factors for
relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc
1996;209:582-588.

9. Retrospective phone follow-up of clients. "39/98 owners whose cats
underwent elective onychectomy or tendonectomy were contacted two
months to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery. 80% had more
than one medical complication. 33% developed at least one behavior
problem; 15.4% would not use the litter box and 17.9% had an increase
in biting habits or intensity".
ref: Yeon SC, Flanders JA, Scarlett JM, et al. Attitudes of owners
regarding tendonectomy and onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc
2001;218:43-47.


The truth is, your cats may not be having any problems because of their
declaw surgery now, but they may develop them in the future, including
behavioral problems like inappropriate urination, soiling, and biting.
They most assuredly will develop arthritis in old age.

-L.

NMR
February 22nd 06, 05:54 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...

Where you been at L haven't seen you post in a few days

February 22nd 06, 07:02 AM
Sherri wrote:
> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
> about opinions..........

Unfortunately, a lot of scratching posts are poorly designed and not
too interesting to cats.

A lot of them do not have a tall enough vertical post for cats to
really stretch out on. Some are very shaky, and the cats don't trust
them. Many have shelves that are too small, or aligned in such a way
that they aren't useful. The tubes and hammocks aren't enjoyed by some
cats.

I see a lot of cat trees in the stores that look nice, and they're
expensive, but I wouldn't take them free, because they would be a waste
of space.

Cats want something tall with shelves up high. They want something they
can really stretch and scratch on. Posts with multiple surfaces are the
best since some cats prefer rug, sisal, plain wood, etc. So, a post
that is great for one, may not be good at all for another.

We have 5 posts in our house. One is a plain old boring post, but still
popular with the cats after 30 years. It has a 3 1/2 foot post before
the first shelf, so they can really scratch at the bottom. It used to
have rug, but the bottom section has been plain wood for about 20 years
now. And we had to replace a section about 15 years ago since Maynard
prefered wood, and scratched out enough that we were worried it might
fall over. It has 3 shelves on alternate sides, so the cats can easily
get from one shelf to another, and the tallest shelf is only about a
foot below the ceiling. They love to sit on that one.

I have a short post that sits on my work table in my bedroom so that it
has the apparence of a 5 foot post. The top shelf is Kira's. She's the
only one small enough to be comfortable on it. I keep her food bowl on
the second shelf. It's too small to lay down on, only sit. This is not
a post suitable for scratching, but a lot of people buy it because it
is cheap. I intended it to be a posing post for photos, so I never
expected the cats to hang out on it much.

We have two posts that are are in the 4-5 foot range. One is the 3
level one that I won last year in a raffle. It has really large
circular levels, so it is perfect for Jay Jay, the jumbo boy. And the
shelves are are more of a sideways jump than straight up, so it was
perfect for Maynard, my elderly boy. It has the underside of run
available for scratching and some sisal.

My nephew's cat post has two levels with nice size platforms with short
walls. The cats really like those kind of platforms. All 4 of our cats
frequent that cat tree a lot. My nephew has blankets hanging off the
top shelf to make the lower shelf into an "apartment" and the two boys
really like that. They totall ignore the cylinder at the bottom and the
toy hanging on it. They do like the sisal scratching section as well as
the rug. There are some noticeable wear spots showing the usage.

And the final cat tree is the newest addition. It is almost to the
ceiling, and multiple levels. The bottom level is ignored. Then there
is a large level with part of it covered and a good scratching post
with sisal starting from there (both are very popular). Then it has two
good shelves with the short walls that they can snuggle into. It is the
most popular cat tree in the house, and can easily accomodate all 4 at
one time.

The main thing in choosing a cat tree is know what cats in general
like, and what yours specifically prefer. Don't pick anything short or
wobbly. Pick big enough shelves. Get the surface they prefer to
scratch. It might be wood, cardboard, sisal, rug, etc.

It is well worth the effort to find the right cat tree. And if all else
fails, buy a new chair or couch and have the old scratched one made
into a tree. They get to keep their favorite surface, and you get your
new one. We've lived in our current house for 18 years. During that
time, we have had 12 cats (not all at the same time), and we only had
one cat that scratched the furniture. She took out one side of the
couch. We got a cover for it. No big deal. And she did stop after the
first year. Declawing was never an option.

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 07:16 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 06:37:45 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>> On 21 Feb 2006 18:18:12 -0800, "PawsForThought"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Sherri wrote:
>> >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
>> >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I
>> >> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
>> >> about opinions..........
>> >
>> >I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion.
>> >I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots.
>> >Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training
>> >techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to your
>> >local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead, you
>> >decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your
>> >precious asshole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot assholes!!!
>>
>> Hysteria is not persuasive, doll.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>No, but she's right. And it's a bit too late for persuasion, in this case,
>isn't it Charlie?
>
>And, hmmm, now that I take a closer look, just one blinking minute here ...
>"hysteria?" Or just passion, genuine feeling that when there is a choice
>other than surgical excision of the last joint of the toes, one should make
>that choice?
>
>Freud ****ed up with the whole "hysteria" deal, after all.
>Most times I find this word being tossed about it is by bloodless freaks who
>are trying to deny that we have any duty to actually exercise our humanity.
>:) The higher parts, if you will.
>
>But I am still calm. We can discuss it. Clearly, "Sherry with an I" chose to
>mutilate her cats and is not sorry about it. Not one bit. After all, hubby
>"put his foot down." Ooo, that is just soooo attractive, you know? Like,
>come on, big fella, make me authorize the butchering of my cat's pretty
>little feet, oo, yeah, that's what get's mama hot!"
>
>Now Charlie comes in and portrays Lauren as "hysterial" because this bothers
>her?

No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points
followed by 3 more on the same line.
>
>Perhaps. But I think her reaction is not limited to those who have uteri.
>Us. You know what I mean.

OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word.
But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it
doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact,
it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as
people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to.

That is really my only point. I'm not an advocate of de-clawing. I
might say that people who care so deeply about the furniture ought not
to have pets at all... but one could also say that people who don't
bother to fence their yards ought not to have a dog. I'm just not
morally secure enough, or blameless enough, to pronounce such a harsh
judgement.

Charlie

-L.
February 22nd 06, 07:22 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> rather spend on weed.
>
> Charlie

Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome
him before you declaw him.
-L.

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 07:59 AM
On 21 Feb 2006 23:22:41 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
>> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
>> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
>> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
>> rather spend on weed.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome
>him before you declaw him.
>-L.

Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a
home-declawing party.

You'll just have to suck it up.

Charlie

Rescue
February 22nd 06, 08:04 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:

> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> rather spend on weed.
>
> Charlie

Charlie's just playing he wouldn't dare cut his cats claws off

February 22nd 06, 09:00 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
> Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a
> home-declawing party.
>
> You'll just have to suck it up.
>
> Charlie

Be sure and take an over-dose.
-L.

February 22nd 06, 09:10 AM
NMR wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
> Where you been at L haven't seen you post in a few days

Been on a bit almost every day, but I've have been busy getting ready
to go on a trip. Plus my little guy is sick - has been for a few
weeks. Took him to the doc for the second time today. Not any time for
fun on the 'net. :p

Thanks for asking! :)
-L.

Alison
February 22nd 06, 09:35 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> >> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> >> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> >> rather spend on weed.
> >>
> >> Charlie
>
Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker!
Alison

Alison
February 22nd 06, 09:55 AM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> DONT YOU EVER DISPECT ME!>>

You are editing you posts so that we have no idea to who you are referring
too.

> "Maybe you should speak to people who work in animal shelters- the
> people who
> take in the cats that are relinquished for post-declaw behavioral
> problems"~~~ Sure, I'll do that. Since I work there part time,and
> still have not heard nor seen any declawed cats turned in for bad
> (above habits)>>

I have no experience with declawed cats, it would only be done for
medical reasons where I live. What estimated proportion of cats handed
over to your shelter are declawed and what reasons are they handed over
for?
Alison

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 10:19 AM
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:35:27 -0000, "Alison"
> wrote:

>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>>> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
>> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
>> >> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
>> >> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
>> >> rather spend on weed.
>> >>
>> >> Charlie
>>
> Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker!
> Alison
>
I'm not really trolling. I'm reacting to all the huffing and puffing
about declawing. It's legal, right? If it is such a terrible
practice, someone ought to make the case to lawmakers and get it
banned.

And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for
me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger.
So what.

Charlie

PawsForThought
February 22nd 06, 01:38 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2006 06:37:45 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points
> followed by 3 more on the same line.

Oh dear, the exclamation police! Oops, that should have read "oh dear,
the exclamation police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps I'm not quite as mellow as you. Do you think I need some weed
maybe?

> OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word.
> But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it
> doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact,
> it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as
> people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to.

I have been in the declaw "debate" for many years. I have found that
sometimes being all nicey to pro-declawers just doesn't work.
Sometimes they need to be shook up, to really look deep within
themselves, to acknowledge what was done to their cat. They need to
question why someone like me would be so upset. They might start to
think, hey maybe the vet was wrong, and declawing is not just like a
simple manicure. I don't know. I've tried it both ways. Sometimes a
laid back approach can work, but unfortunately oftentimes it doesn't.
You may think I'm ineffective, Charlie, but I've had lots of emails
over the years from people thanking me for educating them about what
declawing really is. Even people I was "hysterical" with. They told
me it was my passion that really got them thinking. If it saves even
one cat from this atrocity, then it's well worth it, don't you think?

Lauren

NMR
February 22nd 06, 03:08 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> NMR wrote:
>> "-L." > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>> Where you been at L haven't seen you post in a few days
>
> Been on a bit almost every day, but I've have been busy getting ready
> to go on a trip. Plus my little guy is sick - has been for a few
> weeks. Took him to the doc for the second time today. Not any time for
> fun on the 'net. :p
>
> Thanks for asking! :)
> -L.
>
You are welcome L I know how it is with kids and furballs being sick and
keeping you occupied I was and still am Mr.Mom
I almost figured with the cold weather where you were your servers was down

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 03:31 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Feb 2006 23:22:41 -0800, "-L." > wrote:
>
> >
> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> >> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> >> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> >> rather spend on weed.
> >>
> >> Charlie
> >
> >Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome
> >him before you declaw him.
> >-L.
>
> Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a
> home-declawing party.
>
> You'll just have to suck it up.
>

:) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.

NMR
February 22nd 06, 03:44 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 21 Feb 2006 23:22:41 -0800, "-L." > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
>> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
>> >> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
>> >> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
>> >> rather spend on weed.
>> >>
>> >> Charlie
>> >
>> >Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome
>> >him before you declaw him.
>> >-L.
>>
>> Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a
>> home-declawing party.
>>
>> You'll just have to suck it up.
>>
>
> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
>
>

Yes it is :-)

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 03:44 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Feb 2006 06:37:45 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On 21 Feb 2006 18:18:12 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Sherri wrote:
> >> >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont
> >> >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion
and I
> >> >> have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say
> >> >> about opinions..........
> >> >
> >> >I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion.
> >> >I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots.
> >> >Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training
> >> >techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to
your
> >> >local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead,
you
> >> >decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your
> >> >precious asshole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot assholes!!!
> >>
> >> Hysteria is not persuasive, doll.
> >>


> OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word.
> But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it
> doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact,
> it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as
> people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to.
>
> That is really my only point.

It's a sound point, as you know. But there's also value (for me, at least)
in acknowledging the brutality of the practice of declawing in simple terms.
There are certainly times when I am not interested in persuading. (Getting
tricky with a moron in order to convince her that the sky is, indeed, blue
holds little appeal most days.) At those times, a simple "Idiot," or even
an "Idiot!!!!! Asshole!!!!! IDIOT ASSHOLE!" will do quite nicely.

> I'm not an advocate of de-clawing.

I know.



>I might say that people who care so deeply about the furniture ought not
> to have pets at all... but one could also say that people who don't
> bother to fence their yards ought not to have a dog.

Paying to have this cruel surgical procedure done needlessly is not the same
thing
as letting your dog run in a place that is usually safe and having a tragic
accident
happen, Charlie. Not at all, you have to know this.

>I'm just not
> morally secure enough, or blameless enough, to pronounce such a harsh
> judgement.
>

I understand, but don't you think you were really editorializing on
Lauren's "form?" You, a controlled and rational man (usually) just hate all
that hooha--passionate and righteous indignation, exclamation points, and
"idiot asshole" flinging. Perhaps like Tom Robbins you feel that style is
90%
of life. :) Well, I would not wholly disagree--but I still think there's a
place for
epithet flinging and exclamation points. Such expression, after all, may
keep
people like Brandy from abusing her cat and me from acidizing the wrong
person. I say, as long as you have a deserving target, wale away. :) Subtle
persuasion be damned--or left to others.

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 03:58 PM
On 22 Feb 2006 05:38:38 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> On 22 Feb 2006 06:37:45 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points
>> followed by 3 more on the same line.
>
>Oh dear, the exclamation police! Oops, that should have read "oh dear,
>the exclamation police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Perhaps I'm not quite as mellow as you. Do you think I need some weed
>maybe?
>
>> OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word.
>> But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it
>> doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact,
>> it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as
>> people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to.
>
>I have been in the declaw "debate" for many years. I have found that
>sometimes being all nicey to pro-declawers just doesn't work.
>Sometimes they need to be shook up, to really look deep within
>themselves, to acknowledge what was done to their cat. They need to
>question why someone like me would be so upset. They might start to
>think, hey maybe the vet was wrong, and declawing is not just like a
>simple manicure. I don't know. I've tried it both ways. Sometimes a
>laid back approach can work, but unfortunately oftentimes it doesn't.
>You may think I'm ineffective, Charlie, but I've had lots of emails
>over the years from people thanking me for educating them about what
>declawing really is. Even people I was "hysterical" with. They told
>me it was my passion that really got them thinking. If it saves even
>one cat from this atrocity, then it's well worth it, don't you think?

I think you need a better cause to rant about. Abortion is always a
good one. Whichever side you choose, you'll have lots of other
nutballs to help you educate the public.

Charlie

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 04:01 PM
"NMR" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On 21 Feb 2006 23:22:41 -0800, "-L." > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the
> >> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I
> >> >> probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment.
> >> >> My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd
> >> >> rather spend on weed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Charlie
> >> >
> >> >Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome
> >> >him before you declaw him.
> >> >-L.
> >>
> >> Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a
> >> home-declawing party.
> >>
> >> You'll just have to suck it up.
> >>
> >
> > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
> >
> >
>
> Yes it is :-)
>
>

lol

Charlie Wilkes
February 22nd 06, 05:11 PM
On 22 Feb 2006 16:44:10 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>I understand, but don't you think you were really editorializing on
>Lauren's "form?" You, a controlled and rational man (usually) just hate all
>that hooha--passionate and righteous indignation, exclamation points, and
>"idiot asshole" flinging. Perhaps like Tom Robbins you feel that style is
>90%
>of life. :) Well, I would not wholly disagree--but I still think there's a
>place for
>epithet flinging and exclamation points. Such expression, after all, may
>keep
>people like Brandy from abusing her cat and me from acidizing the wrong
>person. I say, as long as you have a deserving target, wale away. :) Subtle
>persuasion be damned--or left to others.
>
>
People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
declaw cats?

I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.

Charlie

February 22nd 06, 05:12 PM
cybercat wrote:
>
> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.

I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone
in in his trailer is a pretty funny one.

-L.

February 22nd 06, 05:17 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
> cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
> Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
> this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
> only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
> profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
> declaw cats?

Money. I once estimated that the vet I worked for brought in around
100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or
euthanize" rationale.

>
> I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
> in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
> neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
> they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
> terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
> the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.

I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it,
thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the
post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then
there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all
over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd
ever condone the practice.

-L.

NMR
February 22nd 06, 05:18 PM
Don't forget L about when they cry out under sedation while the procedure
happens
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
>> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
>> cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
>> Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
>> this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
>> only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
>> profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
>> declaw cats?
>
> Money. I once estimated that the vet I worked for brought in around
> 100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or
> euthanize" rationale.
>
>>
>> I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
>> in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
>> neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
>> they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
>> terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
>> the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.
>
> I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it,
> thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the
> post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then
> there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all
> over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd
> ever condone the practice.
>
> -L.
>

cybercat
February 22nd 06, 05:39 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> >
> > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
>
> I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone
> in in his trailer is a pretty funny one.
>
> -L.
>

This is a perfect example of your making any attempt to make you look bad
totally superfluous. I could not begin to dream up anything uglier than the
real thing.

PawsForThought
February 22nd 06, 05:52 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
I think you need a better cause to rant about. Abortion is always a
> good one. Whichever side you choose, you'll have lots of other
> nutballs to help you educate the public.

True, but I think I'll pass :)

-L.
February 22nd 06, 08:39 PM
cybercat wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > cybercat wrote:
> > >
> > > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
> >
> > I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone
> > in in his trailer is a pretty funny one.
> >
> > -L.
> >
>
> This is a perfect example of your making any attempt to make you look bad
> totally superfluous. I could not begin to dream up anything uglier than the
> real thing.

Despite the first sentence you wrote not making any sense, the visual
of you laying dead in a gutter somewhere is pretty satisfying, too. :)

HAND!

-L.

-L.
February 22nd 06, 08:47 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
>
> So why didn't he give them pain medication?

They do. The pain meds available to give them sometimes aren't enough
to control the pain without killing the cat. Declawing is used as a
model system for extreme pain management in felines. Furthermore,
declawing usually requires an overnight stay, and you many times cannot
does the cat enough for it to last 10-12 hours overnight - even with
pain control patches.


> I'm sorry, I believe these
> stories as much as some of the pro-lifers. Everyone is willing to
> exeggerate to put across their point of view.

It's not an exaggeration. I suggest you get a behind-the-scenes tour
of a vet hospital first thing in the morning, when the cats have gone
all night in their cages and the pain meds have worn off. Some of the
cats will have have torn off their bandages and bled all over the
cages. If that won't convince you, nothing will. Remember, prior to
working as a vet tech, I thought declawing was ok, too.


> More time than not the
> embellishments are transparent and they do more harm to their cause
> than good.
>
> As for countries where it's banned, I posted here a while back that the
> landlady of a friend of mine had hers declawed with a second blink from
> the hi-tech vet facility that did it. On his own research, he found
> several places. "Banned" is often just a political pacifier for the...
> shrill? Is that how you were described?

In places like the UK, it's seen as mutilation, and by default, vets
don't do it. It's as much a cultural difference as it is a legal one.
Some countries, quite simply, are a bit more civilized than the US.

-L.

Margarita Salt
February 22nd 06, 09:38 PM
-L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

>>
>> As for countries where it's banned, I posted here a while back
>> that the landlady of a friend of mine had hers declawed with a
>> second blink from the hi-tech vet facility that did it. On his
>> own research, he found several places. "Banned" is often just a
>> political pacifier for the... shrill? Is that how you were
>> described?
>
> In places like the UK, it's seen as mutilation, and by default,
> vets don't do it. It's as much a cultural difference as it is a
> legal one. Some countries, quite simply, are a bit more civilized
> than the US.
>
> -L.
>

I was talking about the UK, though. I can say Kami wasn't agonized,
and someone will only come back with "cats hide their pain." But I
brought her home the day of, and she was uncomfy, but not psychotic.
She had banadages up past her elbows and I will never figure out how
she did it, but I left the room for an instant and when I came back,
there were two neat little cat leg shaped bandages intact on the floor
and Kami was in the kitchen getting a drink. She came back, walking
gingerly, and a bit back on her heels, but doing quite well.

As I said before, the only unfortunate issue was one of her toes got
infected causing different kinds of problems. The only thing that
REALLY broke my heart was the first time she tried to play "Velco
Kitty" and didn't stick to the cat tree after she flung herself at it.

But as I've said numerous times, other than Phil's blatantly false
accusation, I did not do it because of some make-up artists complaining
about scratches. I wasn't working at the time. It was because Kami
is, to say kindly, MPD. I used to think she was biting more, but upon
reflection it only seemed that way because it was then only her teeth
that were doing damage. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't do it again,
but I certainly will not let to screaming meemies of the group
demonized me for something that happen 15 years ago, before there was
even a mildly available internet.

Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She likes
me! She really likes me! ;)

--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

Alison
February 22nd 06, 10:07 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:35:27 -0000, "Alison"
> > wrote:
>
>
> >>
> > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker!
> > Alison
> >
> I'm not really trolling. I'm reacting to all the huffing and puffing
> about declawing. It's legal, right? If it is such a terrible
> practice, someone ought to make the case to lawmakers and get it
> banned.
>
> And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for
> me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger.
> So what.
>
> Charlie>>

I guess people make a fuss because they care and feel strongly about it .
You know what , they don't have to actually ban it by law. The American vet
association could just ban vets from doing it , maybe that will happen one
day.
Alison:)

PawsForThought
February 22nd 06, 10:41 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
>The only thing that
> REALLY broke my heart was the first time she tried to play "Velco
> Kitty" and didn't stick to the cat tree after she flung herself at it.

Why am I not surprised that you'd say this is the only thing that broke
your heart. You were the one that probably flung her at the cat tree
after she did something that you didn't like.

>> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She likes
> me! She really likes me! ;)

Yeah, keep telling yourself that...

clifto
February 22nd 06, 11:36 PM
Lesley wrote:
> Ages ago someone here had a saying the summed up the declaw/claw debate
> perfectly and I'll try to remember it. It went something like:
>
> White leather sofa.... £3,000
> Armchairs.... £500
> Knowledge that my cats are entire and happy and behaving like
> cats...priceless

Furniture... who cares
Climbing drapes... who cares
Being able to play with every cat dozens of times per day and still have
skin on my hands and arms... priceless
Not having to deal with the occasional scratched cat eye from play... priceless

--
All relevant people are pertinent.
All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
-- Solomon W. Golomb

Sherri
February 23rd 06, 12:12 AM
Thanks Charlie

Sherri
February 23rd 06, 12:28 AM
The post-op aftermath of declawing? Excuse me, but what about spay and
neutering? Disagree with that too? At least with a declaw they get sent
home with pain meds,nothing gets sent home with a spay or neuter.And
the vet you worked for who only did it for the money shouldnt be a vet
at all!
wrote:
> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> > People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
> > stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
> > cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
> > Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
> > this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
> > only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
> > profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
> > declaw cats?
>
> Money. I once estimated that the vet I worked for brought in around
> 100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or
> euthanize" rationale.
>
> >
> > I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
> > in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
> > neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
> > they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
> > terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
> > the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.
>
> I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it,
> thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the
> post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then
> there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all
> over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd
> ever condone the practice.
>
> -L.

NanCe via CatKB.com
February 23rd 06, 12:39 AM
>The post-op aftermath of declawing? Excuse me, but what about spay and
>neutering? Disagree with that too? At least with a declaw they get sent
>home with pain meds,nothing gets sent home with a spay or neuter.And
>the vet you worked for who only did it for the money shouldnt be a vet
>at all!

But spaying and neutering is to prevent kittens from being born into a world
that has too many; it's a necessary procedure. Declawing is just to save
your chair. You can't even compare the two. You still haven't advised why
you didn't use Soft Paws instead of declawing. Care to answer that?


NanCe

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200602/1

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 12:42 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 09:12:19 -0800, wrote:

>
>cybercat wrote:
>>
>> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
>
>I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone
>in in his trailer is a pretty funny one.
>
>-L.

Years ago, Dan's Gallery of the Grotesque had medical photos of a guy
who cut strips of flesh off of his face and fed them to his dog whilst
enjoying the intoxicating effects of PCP. The text described how the
MDs cut open the dog's stomach to retrieve these morsels so they could
do some reconstructive surgery, and I believe there was a second photo
of the post-op result. The guy didn't look too good.

I got a chuckle out of those pix, and if you can find them, you would
too. They're still out there somewhere, I'll bet...

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 12:58 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 09:17:10 -0800, wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
>> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
>> cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
>> Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
>> this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
>> only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
>> profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
>> declaw cats?
>
>Money. I once estimated that the vet I worked for brought in around
>100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or
>euthanize" rationale.

That's a lot of money for one procedure. Was declawing the mainstay
of this guy's practice? How many cats would he have to declaw in a
year to pull in 100k of revenue?
>
>>
>> I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
>> in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
>> neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
>> they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
>> terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
>> the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.
>
>I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it,
>thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the
>post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then
>there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all
>over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd
>ever condone the practice.
>
I can't dispute this. But, I recognize that many people are unaware,
or don't believe, it is cruel. They think it is ok as long as the cat
is kept indoors. If they show up as newbies in this group, having
already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
them feel like pariahs?

If declawing is a social evil, it is one that should be addressed by
law, I think. As long as it is legal and provided as a service by
many, if not most, vets, then I think quite a few people will assume
it is a viable option, and lambasting them after the fact is ****ing
in the wind.

After all, we live in a society where warning labels are printed on 5
gallon buckets... "Don't fill with water and submerge your toddler."
With that level of legal boilerplate permeating the culture, people
tend to assume that all bad things have been outlawed, and conversely,
that all lawful options are sound and reasonable.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 01:11 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 10:11:04 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely
>> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed
>> cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them.
>
>The owners may love their cats they declawed, but I doubt they respect
>them. Respect
>implies that you have to see the animal as an individual, separate from
>your own needs, wants and desires. It implies a willingness to work
>with the animal, not physically alter it to avoid problems, or to save
>furniture. It implies a willingness to spend time teaching, instead of
>assuming they can't be trained. It means cutting off body parts isn't
>an option, since it hurts, even for a day, and if they really respected
>the animal, they wouldn't be willing to hurt it if there exists other
>options, which there certainly does. I'm not blaming people who declaw

Well, this is not unlike the rednecks who refuse to neuter their male
dogs. It's all about respect and empathy -- "After all, I wouldn't
want someone to cut my nuts off," they say. Who can argue with that?

>in ignorance because the vet told them false information such as
>declawing only removes the claw and doesn't hurt the animal. But
>people who knowingly have this done to their cats don't deserve to have
>cats.
>
>Cats are great at adapting, just like human amputees can be. But just
>because they may seem normal to you, doesn't necessarily mean they are
>normal. Cats by their very nature as predators are stoic, and hide
>their pain very well.
>
>> Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in
>> this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated
>> only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their
>> profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to
>> declaw cats?
>
>Certainly you're not so naive, are you? Vets make money, lots of
>money, from declawing cats. Some of them let themselves become
>emotional hostages when the owner claims they will relinquish the cat
>if the vet won't declaw it. Wonder what that same person would do if
>they lived in countries where declawing is banned.
>
>> I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes
>> in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this
>> neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when
>> they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too
>> terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud
>> the virtue of shrill invective on the subject.
>
>Sure there is suffering, but just because there are different degrees
>of suffering, doesn't make declawing okay, or not important issue.
>Thinking the way you do is just a cop out, IMO.
>
>A vet tech posted this in another group. I think it really describes
>well how horrific this procedure is:
>
>"I have worked for two veterinarians. The second vet I worked for did
>not put the cats totally under, I do not remember which anesthesia he
>used, but it more or less just immobilized the cat. I will never forget
>watching a big, older cat get declawed and with each digit the vet
>snipped off with sterilized dog toe nail nippers (that is what both
>vets I worked for used) the cat would make a painful little squeak. He
>was immobilized so he couldn't do much more than that. Don't tell me he
>didn't feel it.
>
>"Everyone who wants their cat declawed should watch the procedure -
>once would be all it takes. There is a great deal of post operative
>pain. The paws are wrapped with compression bandages to keep postop
>bleeding to a minimum and to keep the cat from licking the amputation
>sites. Yes, it is amputation, each toe is lopped off at the first
>joint. I have seen miserable cats attempting to groom their faces with
>painful bandaged feet. They try to stand and lift one paw and then the
>other. But the worse part was having to clean up after the surgery,
>scooping up those little amputated toes. It made my skin crawl. Both
>vets I worked for considered a socially accepted form of torture."
>
>And if that isn't enough for you:
>
>Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director
>of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary
>Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal
>behavioral research, explains declawing:
>
>"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature
>of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine
>recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are
>fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the
>walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are
>more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a
>state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits
>the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform,
>disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial
>digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture
>of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure
>serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic
>drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they
>rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so
>sooner or later the pain will emerge."

You are describing shoddy care and lack of pain intervention. All of
that can be overcome with the proper drugs, in the proper dosages,
over the necessary time frame. It is really a different issue, i.e.,
how effective is pain management surrounding animal surgery.

Your comments do not speak to the longer term effects of declawing, if
the procedure is done properly.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 01:25 AM
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:07:03 -0000, "Alison"
> wrote:

>
>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:35:27 -0000, "Alison"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>
>> > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker!
>> > Alison
>> >
>> I'm not really trolling. I'm reacting to all the huffing and puffing
>> about declawing. It's legal, right? If it is such a terrible
>> practice, someone ought to make the case to lawmakers and get it
>> banned.
>>
>> And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for
>> me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger.
>> So what.
>>
>> Charlie>>
>
> I guess people make a fuss because they care and feel strongly about it .

Yes, they do care, and I have read some good, rational arguments in
this thread. BUT, there is also an element of nastiness... using it
as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo
it if they wanted to.

>You know what , they don't have to actually ban it by law. The American vet
>association could just ban vets from doing it , maybe that will happen one
>day.
> Alison:)

If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or
I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of
action? It's a world of untidy tradeoffs.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 01:29 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 14:41:11 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
>Margarita Salt wrote:
>>The only thing that
>> REALLY broke my heart was the first time she tried to play "Velco
>> Kitty" and didn't stick to the cat tree after she flung herself at it.
>
>Why am I not surprised that you'd say this is the only thing that broke
>your heart. You were the one that probably flung her at the cat tree
>after she did something that you didn't like.

Bah! This is just pathological bitchiness.

Charlie
>
>>> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She likes
>> me! She really likes me! ;)
>
>Yeah, keep telling yourself that...

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 01:33 AM
On 22 Feb 2006 08:29:43 -0800, "Rescue" >
wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
>> And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for
>> me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger.
>> So what.
>
>don't worry, you still got your pussy

I slept all day today and just before I got up, I put my hand out over
the covers, and Tweaker grabbed it with his paws and pulled it toward
his mouth and bit it. It felt wonderful. He has the perfect, gentle
touch. But, not all cats do.

Charlie

cybercat
February 23rd 06, 02:06 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:07:03 -0000, "Alison"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:35:27 -0000, "Alison"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw
Tweaker!
> >> > Alison
> >> >
> >> I'm not really trolling. I'm reacting to all the huffing and puffing
> >> about declawing. It's legal, right? If it is such a terrible
> >> practice, someone ought to make the case to lawmakers and get it
> >> banned.
> >>
> >> And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for
> >> me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger.
> >> So what.
> >>
> >> Charlie>>
> >
> > I guess people make a fuss because they care and feel strongly about it
..
>
> Yes, they do care, and I have read some good, rational arguments in
> this thread. BUT, there is also an element of nastiness... using it
> as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo
> it if they wanted to.


Not the point with regard to Brandy or the idiot Sherry-with-an-i, Charlie.
I declawed my first cat and there is nothing I can do about it now. The
difference between me and these two is that I recognize that it was a
heinous thing to do and have admitted it. They have not.

But I applaud your newfound Tenderhearted Concerned for the Downtrodden
Unrepentant Declawers. You've been saved!

Phil P.
February 23rd 06, 02:13 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> PawsForThought > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > Margarita Salt wrote:
> >>The only thing that
> >> REALLY broke my heart was the first time she tried to play "Velco
> >> Kitty" and didn't stick to the cat tree after she flung herself
> >> at it.
> >
> > Why am I not surprised that you'd say this is the only thing that
> > broke your heart. You were the one that probably flung her at the
> > cat tree after she did something that you didn't like.
> >
> >>> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She
> >>> likes
> >> me! She really likes me! ;)
> >
> > Yeah, keep telling yourself that...
> >
> >
>
> **** you! Stop being such a pinhead and believing everything Phil
> says. He has NEVER provide proof of these things he accuses me

That's because you deleted or x-no archived your posts, you ****ing
animal-abusing sleaze.

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 02:21 AM
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:58:56 GMT, "D." >
wrote:

>In article >,
> Margarita Salt > wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, I believe these
>> stories as much as some of the pro-lifers.
>
>Cut your fingers off below the first knuckle, with anesthesia, and
>report back on how it feels. Report back in a week, and a year. I'll be
>curious as to what you believe then.

I don't think she will find a doctor willing to perform the procedure.
Amanda Feilding had that problem, and she ended up having to drill
into her own skull.

Charlie

February 23rd 06, 02:24 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> I was talking about the UK, though. I can say Kami wasn't agonized,
> and someone will only come back with "cats hide their pain." But I
> brought her home the day of, and she was uncomfy, but not psychotic.

I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery. IMO,
that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a mega dose of
torb in her, if that truly was the case.


> She had banadages up past her elbows and I will never figure out how
> she did it, but I left the room for an instant and when I came back,
> there were two neat little cat leg shaped bandages intact on the floor
> and Kami was in the kitchen getting a drink.

They didn't apply the bandages correctly.

> She came back, walking
> gingerly, and a bit back on her heels, but doing quite well.
>
> As I said before, the only unfortunate issue was one of her toes got
> infected causing different kinds of problems.

Probably due to the fact that she was sent home with, literally,
weeping wounds. There is no way freshly severed toes are sealed enough
post-op for the cat to go home.

> The only thing that
> REALLY broke my heart was the first time she tried to play "Velco
> Kitty" and didn't stick to the cat tree after she flung herself at it.

That's the least of her problems.

>
> But as I've said numerous times, other than Phil's blatantly false
> accusation, I did not do it because of some make-up artists complaining
> about scratches. I wasn't working at the time. It was because Kami
> is, to say kindly, MPD.

We have hashed this and rehashed this. I believe she was
overstimulated and you didn't recognize it. Had you stopped petting
her, or giving her attention, her behavior would have stopped.

> I used to think she was biting more, but upon
> reflection it only seemed that way because it was then only her teeth
> that were doing damage. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't do it again,
> but I certainly will not let to screaming meemies of the group
> demonized me for something that happen 15 years ago, before there was
> even a mildly available internet.

My suggestion to you is to really research the procedure, and cat
behavior. Declawing's brutal. It is possible had Kami not been
declawed she wouldn't continue to have behavioral issues (what you call
MPD).

>
> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She likes
> me! She really likes me! ;)

She doesn't have any choice.

-L.

NMR
February 23rd 06, 02:38 AM
She knows how to do that well she was caught in a lie yesterday and tried to
back peddle


"D." > wrote in message
nk.net...
> In article >,
> Margarita Salt > wrote:
>
>> D. > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > Margarita Salt > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm sorry, I believe these
>> >> stories as much as some of the pro-lifers.
>> >
>> > Cut your fingers off below the first knuckle, with anesthesia, and
>> > report back on how it feels. Report back in a week, and a year.
>> > I'll be curious as to what you believe then.
>> >
>>
>> Oh, now it's BELOW the first knuckle, when all along people were saying
>> AT the first knuckle. You attempts to make things sound even worse make
>> you look like a moron and hurt your argument.
>
> I'm not making an argument. Nice evasion, though.
>
> --
> Web site: http://www.slywy.com/
> Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/
> Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 03:04 AM
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:42:14 GMT, Charlie Wilkes
> wrote:

>On 22 Feb 2006 09:12:19 -0800, wrote:
>
>>
>>cybercat wrote:
>>>
>>> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie.
>>
>>I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone
>>in in his trailer is a pretty funny one.
>>
>>-L.
>
>Years ago, Dan's Gallery of the Grotesque had medical photos of a guy
>who cut strips of flesh off of his face and fed them to his dog whilst
>enjoying the intoxicating effects of PCP. The text described how the
>MDs cut open the dog's stomach to retrieve these morsels so they could
>do some reconstructive surgery, and I believe there was a second photo
>of the post-op result. The guy didn't look too good.
>
>I got a chuckle out of those pix, and if you can find them, you would
>too. They're still out there somewhere, I'll bet...
>
>Charlie

Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes
along with it:

"While under the influence of Angel Dust this man decided to peel off
his own face using pieces of a broken mirror and feed the strips of
flesh to his pet dogs. He survived due to the large abounts of drugs
anesthetizing his system. The dogs were removed by police to the
animal shelter, where their stomachs were pumped, resulting in the
recovery of pieces of the man´s face, lips, and nose."

Nice to know that picture is still out there to educate the public
about the dangers of drug abuse.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 23rd 06, 03:55 AM
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:13:15 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:

>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
>
>> If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or
>> I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of
>> action?
>
>Its actually ethically inappropriate for vets to submit to this form of
>moral blackmail and emotional terrorism from their clients.

Emotional terrorism, eh? Better call Homeland Security.
>
>There's a very simple solution: I'd ask the owners to sign a surrender form
>and I'd rehome the cat. We do it all the time. Most of the cats don't

No, Phil. A glib comeback is not a simple solution, so you'll have to
spend that rubber nickel somewhere else. If a simple solution
existed, shelters wouldn't be overloaded with cats.

Charlie

Phil P.
February 23rd 06, 04:42 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:13:15 GMT, "Phil P." >

> >
> >There's a very simple solution: I'd ask the owners to sign a surrender
form
> >and I'd rehome the cat. We do it all the time. Most of the cats don't
>
> No, Phil. A glib comeback is not a simple solution,


Sorry Charlie, its not a glib comeback; its a well proven fact. If an owner
threatens to relinquish the cat to a shelter and probable death, they really
shouldn't have any problem signing the cat over to the vet. A lot of our
cats come from vets whose clients are unable or unwilling to treat their
cats' medical or behaviorial problems.



so you'll have to
> spend that rubber nickel somewhere else. If a simple solution
> existed, shelters wouldn't be overloaded with cats.

Sorry Charlie, you're wrong again. Shelters aren't overloaded with cats
due to scratching problems. In fact inappropriate scratching isn't even on
the NCPPSP list of the top 10 reasons for pet relinquishment to shelters in
the United States. That's one of the reasons why the "death or declaw"
philosophy is bogus.

Margarita Salt
February 23rd 06, 04:43 AM
> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
>> I was talking about the UK, though. I can say Kami wasn't
>> agonized, and someone will only come back with "cats hide their
>> pain." But I brought her home the day of, and she was uncomfy,
>> but not psychotic.
>
> I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery.
> IMO, that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a
> mega dose of torb in her, if that truly was the case.

What makes you say that? Are you a vet?


>> She had banadages up past her elbows and I will never figure out
>> how she did it, but I left the room for an instant and when I
>> came back, there were two neat little cat leg shaped bandages
>> intact on the floor and Kami was in the kitchen getting a drink.
>
> They didn't apply the bandages correctly.

Are you inferring you saw them?


>> As I said before, the only unfortunate issue was one of her toes
>> got infected causing different kinds of problems.
>
> Probably due to the fact that she was sent home with, literally,
> weeping wounds. There is no way freshly severed toes are sealed
> enough post-op for the cat to go home.

There wasn't a spot of blood. You don't know what you're talking
about.


>> But as I've said numerous times, other than Phil's blatantly
>> false accusation, I did not do it because of some make-up artists
>> complaining about scratches. I wasn't working at the time. It
>> was because Kami is, to say kindly, MPD.
>
> We have hashed this and rehashed this. I believe she was
> overstimulated and you didn't recognize it. Had you stopped
> petting her, or giving her attention, her behavior would have
> stopped.

Yup, and you can't get used to the idea that you can't possibility
know what you're talking about with regard to my life without living
in my household. It would be better if you didn't assert your
comments as facts, but only the speculation and wishful thinking
they happen to be.

I'll give you one thing--your argument come across more
intelligently and sanely without name calling that others employ due
to lack of confidence in their conviction.

>> I used to think she was biting more, but upon
>> reflection it only seemed that way because it was then only her
>> teeth that were doing damage. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't do
>> it again, but I certainly will not let to screaming meemies of
>> the group demonized me for something that happen 15 years ago,
>> before there was even a mildly available internet.
>
> My suggestion to you is to really research the procedure, and cat
> behavior. Declawing's brutal. It is possible had Kami not been
> declawed she wouldn't continue to have behavioral issues (what you
> call MPD).

I gave her three years. I thought the spay would help, etc., but it
was insurmountable. The behavior did eventually stop, but there's
absolutely no way anyone can say what prompted the change.

>> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She
>> likes me! She really likes me! ;)
>
> She doesn't have any choice.

Sure she does. She can continue unprovoked attacks, pee on the
carpet, grind poo in the bed, and everything else it might take to
get me to toss her out on her ear. But if you remember all of my
past posts, why don't you remember my post asking the meaning of
slow, soft blinks? Not to mention the arm pin when I'm at the
computer, following me from place to stay within touching distance,
sleeping with me all night even though I know she prefers the heated
teepee. That's not a cat who hates the staff.




--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

NMR
February 23rd 06, 05:55 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> She knows how to do that well she was caught in a lie yesterday
>> and tried to back peddle
>>
>
> No, I wasn't. Please post back what I said and what my "backpedal"
> was. It's only a lie because you want it to be. Thankfully, the world
> doesn't operate around what you want.
>>
>

>It's only a lie because you want it to be

NO IT IS A LIE BECAUSE YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT

I don't have to repost the lie it still is in the above post from yesterday.
Stop trying to be innocent, Your are not a innocent victim. You have been
caught, brought out into the spotlight and shown to be a LIAR.

You lied in above post and don't even remember doing it. It was less than 2
days ago. Do you lie that much that you forget your own lies.


You were given the chance to restate your words but all you did was attempt
to change the situation draw it away from your lie. YOU LIED AND WERE
CAUGHT You can argue all you want, throw one of your little tantrums but it
won't change the fact YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT


A quote to remember even for you to even remember " what a tangle web we
weave when you practice to deceive " Charlotte's web

Phil P.
February 23rd 06, 07:34 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...

But I
> brought her home the day of, and she was uncomfy, but not psychotic.
> She had banadages up past her elbows and I will never figure out how
> she did it, but I left the room for an instant and when I came back,
> there were two neat little cat leg shaped bandages intact on the floor
> and Kami was in the kitchen getting a drink. She came back, walking
> gingerly, and a bit back on her heels, but doing quite well.


LMAO! What a crock of bull****! You'll conjure up any bull**** story to
try to look like an innocent, caring owner, won't you? 15 years ago, only
scalpel blades or guillotine-type cutters were used in feline declaws. Both
techniques cause *severe* pain and trauma to the bones, periosteum, severed
nerves, ligaments and tendons- and especially the disarticulated
(disjointed) distal interphalangeal joints- all *10* of them. The pain
meds available 15 years were rarely used in cats because they were extremely
toxic and little was known about their efficacy. Even if your cat did
receive pain meds, however unlikely, she would have to have been monitored
*in the hospital* for at least 24 hours for adverse effects and hemorrhaging
and ischemic necrosis.

You should learn what declawing involves before you make up bull****
stories:

"The claw is extended by pushing up under the footpad or by grasping it with
Allis tissue forceps. A scalpel blade is used to sharply dissect between the
second and third phalanx over the top of the ungual crest . The distal
interphalangeal joint is disarticulated (disjointed), and the deep digital
flexor tendon is incised (severed). The digital footpad, is not incised. If
a nail trimmer is used, the ring of the instrument is placed in the groove
between the second phalanx and the ungual crest. The blade is positioned
just in front of the footpad. The blade is pushed through the soft tissues
over the flexor process. With the ring of the nail trimmer in position
behind the ungual crest, the blade is released just slightly so that
traction applied to the claw causes the flexor process to slip out and above
the blade. At this point, the
flexor tendon can be incised and disarticulation of the joint (disjointing)
completed. Both techniques effectively remove the entire third
phalanx." (Excerpted from: Slatter D; Textbook of Small Animal Surgery 2nd
ed vol I, p.352 W.B. Saunders Company Philadelphia.)


"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of
cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine
recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly
peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the
recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle
in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness,
presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of
mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and
dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so
horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in
veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain
for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can
be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete
and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." (Dr.
Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the
Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine; Excerpted
from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New York).

You're truly delusional if you think anyone would believe your downright
*lie* that cat was walking around on freshly severed bones the same day she
was declawed. There's absolutely no way a competent and ethical vet would
have sent a cat home the same day she was declawed. Tell your bull****
stories to the people in the porn and gossip newsgroups who don't know any
better.


>
> But as I've said numerous times, other than Phil's blatantly false
> accusation,


Oh, I didn't make any accusations- I simply repeated *your* story. You
don't archive your posts because you can't remember your lies and bull****
stories.

NMR
February 23rd 06, 03:55 PM
Go back and reread your reply post before you make your self look any more
like an moron

ROFLMAO
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in
>> message ...
>>> NMR > wrote in
>>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>
>>>> She knows how to do that well she was caught in a lie yesterday
>>>> and tried to back peddle
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, I wasn't. Please post back what I said and what my
>>> "backpedal" was. It's only a lie because you want it to be.
>>> Thankfully, the world doesn't operate around what you want.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>>It's only a lie because you want it to be
>>
>> NO IT IS A LIE BECAUSE YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT
>>
>> I don't have to repost the lie it still is in the above post from
>> yesterday. Stop trying to be innocent, Your are not a innocent
>> victim. You have been caught, brought out into the spotlight and
>> shown to be a LIAR.
>>
>> You lied in above post and don't even remember doing it. It was
>> less than 2 days ago. Do you lie that much that you forget your
>> own lies.
>>
>>
>> You were given the chance to restate your words but all you did
>> was attempt to change the situation draw it away from your lie.
>> YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT You can argue all you want, throw one of
>> your little tantrums but it won't change the fact YOU LIED AND
>> WERE CAUGHT
>>
>>
>> A quote to remember even for you to even remember " what a tangle
>> web we weave when you practice to deceive " Charlotte's web
>>
>>
>>
>
> You're getting a bit shrill. Since you're afraid to do it out of fear
> of being caught up in your own lie, I will.
>
> "The veterinary board in NJ is reviewing the Maxshouse site and
> potential the facility for violations."
>
> I don't see how that is a lie compared to my saying they are looking
> into it. They mean exactly the same thing on this planet. Don't know
> about on yours.
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

NMR
February 23rd 06, 04:19 PM
I am done arguing with you no matter how big the etch and sketch is or
bright the crayons are. You just won't get it. It blew up in your face.
You showed your true colors. YOU got caught no matter what you said or how
much you back pedal.

Say what you want it makes no difference it is here for everyone to read.
Just one more of your little adventures that shows what type of person you
really are. Hope it does not blow up in your face in the real world


"NMR" > wrote in message
...
> Go back and reread your reply post before you make your self look any
> more like an moron
>
> ROFLMAO
> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> NMR > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in
>>> message ...
>>>> NMR > wrote in
>>>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>>
>>>>> She knows how to do that well she was caught in a lie yesterday
>>>>> and tried to back peddle
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, I wasn't. Please post back what I said and what my
>>>> "backpedal" was. It's only a lie because you want it to be.
>>>> Thankfully, the world doesn't operate around what you want.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>It's only a lie because you want it to be
>>>
>>> NO IT IS A LIE BECAUSE YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT
>>>
>>> I don't have to repost the lie it still is in the above post from
>>> yesterday. Stop trying to be innocent, Your are not a innocent
>>> victim. You have been caught, brought out into the spotlight and
>>> shown to be a LIAR.
>>>
>>> You lied in above post and don't even remember doing it. It was
>>> less than 2 days ago. Do you lie that much that you forget your
>>> own lies.
>>>
>>>
>>> You were given the chance to restate your words but all you did
>>> was attempt to change the situation draw it away from your lie.
>>> YOU LIED AND WERE CAUGHT You can argue all you want, throw one of
>>> your little tantrums but it won't change the fact YOU LIED AND
>>> WERE CAUGHT
>>>
>>>
>>> A quote to remember even for you to even remember " what a tangle
>>> web we weave when you practice to deceive " Charlotte's web
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You're getting a bit shrill. Since you're afraid to do it out of fear
>> of being caught up in your own lie, I will.
>>
>> "The veterinary board in NJ is reviewing the Maxshouse site and
>> potential the facility for violations."
>>
>> I don't see how that is a lie compared to my saying they are looking
>> into it. They mean exactly the same thing on this planet. Don't know
>> about on yours.
>>
>> --
>> Margarita Salt
>>
>> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
>> entirely good... motives are often more important than
>> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt
>
>

-L.
February 23rd 06, 06:32 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> > I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery.
> > IMO, that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a
> > mega dose of torb in her, if that truly was the case.
>
> What makes you say that? Are you a vet?

Nope, but I was a vet tech at a high-volume feline specialty hospital,
among other things. The owners was a surgical specialist. We handled
referrals from all over the West. I assisted declawing surgeries and
was the primary care tech post-op for declaws.

>
>
> >> She had banadages up past her elbows and I will never figure out
> >> how she did it, but I left the room for an instant and when I
> >> came back, there were two neat little cat leg shaped bandages
> >> intact on the floor and Kami was in the kitchen getting a drink.
> >
> > They didn't apply the bandages correctly.
>
> Are you inferring you saw them?

No, but if she was able to pull them off intact, they were not applied
properly. Those are pressure bandages designed to stop the bleeding.
If applied properly, they not only cover the paws and forearms but wrap
behind the elblow and the cat can't remove them without chewing through
them. The cat should be sedated with pain meds enough that it can't
chew through them, though. The fact that they sent a cat home the
first day post-op with bandages still on screams malpractice to me - it
certainly goes against standard declawing procedures and post-operative
care guidelines.


>
> There wasn't a spot of blood. You don't know what you're talking
> about.

Was she declawed using laser surgery? I highly doubt it, considering
that laser declaw was not standardized 15 years ago. If she in fact
went home the day of the surgery with either sutures or surgical glue
sealing her wounds, there would be a LOT of bleeding, especially on a
3-year-old cat. Either you are lying or you do not remember it
correctly. If the wounds were open enough to get infected, they were,
minimally, seeping blood post-op.

<snip>

> >
> > My suggestion to you is to really research the procedure, and cat
> > behavior. Declawing's brutal. It is possible had Kami not been
> > declawed she wouldn't continue to have behavioral issues (what you
> > call MPD).
>
> I gave her three years.

Yet you never recognized that you were causing her behavior. So you
declawed a *3* year old cat.


> I thought the spay would help, etc., but it
> was insurmountable. The behavior did eventually stop, but there's
> absolutely no way anyone can say what prompted the change.
>
> >> Kami has forgiven, and he opinion is the only that matters. She
> >> likes me! She really likes me! ;)
> >
> > She doesn't have any choice.
>
> Sure she does. She can continue unprovoked attacks, pee on the
> carpet, grind poo in the bed, and everything else it might take to
> get me to toss her out on her ear. But if you remember all of my
> past posts,


Where did I say I remember all of your past posts? The only thing I
have ever interacted with you about is your ignorance in recognizing
that you were causing her attacking bahvaior and your ignorance about
declawing. I also gave you support when Kami was so sick. Despite how
I feel about what you did to her, I still recognize that you care about
Kami.


> why don't you remember my post asking the meaning of
> slow, soft blinks? Not to mention the arm pin when I'm at the
> computer, following me from place to stay within touching distance,
> sleeping with me all night even though I know she prefers the heated
> teepee. That's not a cat who hates the staff.


She may not hate you, but cats never "get over" being declawed. It
changes how they walk and it takes away all of their defenses except to
bite. And it changes their personality, whether or not you want to
recognize it.

Younger kittens tend to adapt better to being declawed. Notice I said
*tend*. After about 16 weeks, though, there is usually a marked change
in personality of the cat. I have seen it dozens of times and have had
owners tell me how sorry they were that they declawed their cat because
it changed the cat, emotionally, affecting their personality.

Declawing is amputation. The fact that it is done out of convenience
is abhorrent. It is 100% preventable and unnecessary, and should be
banned everywhere. If you can't deal with the claws, don't get a cat.

-L.

-L.
February 23rd 06, 06:43 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> Oh, now it's BELOW the first knuckle, when all along people were saying
> AT the first knuckle. You attempts to make things sound even worse make
> you look like a moron and hurt your argument.
>
> Get back in your sock drawer.
>
> --
> Margarita Salt

The incision is generally done *below* the knuckle at the junction
where the two bones meet. Some vets use a scalpel to slice through the
muscle and tendon. Others use a guillotine-type nail clipper, and just
hack it off. The entire last phalanx of the toe is removed. They
then stitch the wound closed or glue it closed with surgical glue. The
wounds bleed profusely, as any amputation would. Once a paw is done,
pressure bandage "mittens" are made, and wrapped around the paws and
forearms to the elbow, to help stop the bleeding. The cat is then
mega-dosed with antibiotics and pain meds and placed in a cage to
recover. The cat's temp is monitored for 24 hours to ensure no
infection is setting in. The cat is monitored for signs of the pain
meds wearing off. The next morning, the cat is dosed with pain meds
again, the bandages are removed and the wounds are examined for
bleeding. If there is no bleeding the cat is generally sent home dosed
with pain meds, and extra oral pain meds given to the owner to use over
the next day or so. Older cats (over 6 mos) may stay an extra day as
they tend to have more bleeding and need more pain management.

That's declawing surgery (partial digital amputation) in a nutshell.

-L.

cybercat
February 23rd 06, 06:55 PM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
> > > I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery.
> > > IMO, that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a
> > > mega dose of torb in her, if that truly was the case.
> >
> > What makes you say that? Are you a vet?
>
> Nope, but I was a vet tech at a high-volume feline specialty hospital,
> among other things. The owners was a surgical specialist. We handled
> referrals from all over the West. I assisted declawing surgeries and
> was the primary care tech post-op for declaws.
>

Lyn, the butchers who did my cat (with my permission, which I really
do regret and have no excuse save stupidity for) sent her home the same day.
She kept trying to touch her feet to the floor, still woozy from the
anesthetic, with these huge pupils. It was really horrible and she never
should have been sent home. So they do it. They sure do.

NMR
February 23rd 06, 07:35 PM
The only problem you have Brandy is you were caught lying. You have backed
down and back pedaled you twit you already admitted that you lied.

No matter how much you try to make it your were right. You lied and were
caught and also admitted it when you were confronted about the subject. You
were even given a chance to retract your statement but than admitted that
you made the call.

A quote from you you should follow "Take the gum out of your mouth, take
off the roller skates, do your
homework, and let the grown-ups talk."

When you finally comprehend your own lies we will graduate your from crayon
and etch a sketch to chalk and a stencil.

Don't get mad little one that no matter what you say or do you lied and were
caught. We don't want to see one of your tantrums again

God Lord Phil I see what you mean about her from your previous post. Dumb
as a doorknob and that is insulting the doorknob.


"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Say what you want it makes no difference it is here for everyone
>> to read. Just one more of your little adventures that shows what
>> type of person you really are.
>
> You're exactly right. And that type of person would be one who doesn't
> back down when others with reading comprehension problems accuse them
> of lying.
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

NMR
February 23rd 06, 07:36 PM
You made me cringed on that :-(

"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
>> Oh, now it's BELOW the first knuckle, when all along people were saying
>> AT the first knuckle. You attempts to make things sound even worse make
>> you look like a moron and hurt your argument.
>>
>> Get back in your sock drawer.
>>
>> --
>> Margarita Salt
>
> The incision is generally done *below* the knuckle at the junction
> where the two bones meet. Some vets use a scalpel to slice through the
> muscle and tendon. Others use a guillotine-type nail clipper, and just
> hack it off. The entire last phalanx of the toe is removed. They
> then stitch the wound closed or glue it closed with surgical glue. The
> wounds bleed profusely, as any amputation would. Once a paw is done,
> pressure bandage "mittens" are made, and wrapped around the paws and
> forearms to the elbow, to help stop the bleeding. The cat is then
> mega-dosed with antibiotics and pain meds and placed in a cage to
> recover. The cat's temp is monitored for 24 hours to ensure no
> infection is setting in. The cat is monitored for signs of the pain
> meds wearing off. The next morning, the cat is dosed with pain meds
> again, the bandages are removed and the wounds are examined for
> bleeding. If there is no bleeding the cat is generally sent home dosed
> with pain meds, and extra oral pain meds given to the owner to use over
> the next day or so. Older cats (over 6 mos) may stay an extra day as
> they tend to have more bleeding and need more pain management.
>
> That's declawing surgery (partial digital amputation) in a nutshell.
>
> -L.
>

NMR
February 23rd 06, 09:26 PM
>Are you on drugs?
No sorry that is your kick in life not mine never had to use them never
will

>How completely repetitive of you. You need some new material.

As soon as you learn to read I will I told you I would graduate you up to
using chalk and a stencil instead of crayons

>You can't re-write history babe, though I'm glad you finally figured
out "pedaled."

You are one to talk since how many post have people caught you in BS in the
past specially the last couple days

Can't you come up with anything better than a misused and misspelled word.
Oh poor baby your must be getting desperate to try find anything to lash
out at if that is all you got. Remember your cat is not a target

No wonder the Judge and the audience laughed at you.

>I'm afraid you're going to have to spell out what I supposedly lied
about, because I think you're extremely confused.

But I have it is in your own post can't be confused about that it is your
own words. I guess you can't figured out how to cover up your own words.

>But then, I thought you said you were done with it. I must own you.

You are to easy to laugh at it is too tempting to make you look like a fool
that I guess I can't help myself in responding. I should stop but it is so
easy since you can't help yourself being a who you are ( too many laughable
things to list).

The only thing you own wash out is what ever is around you and from the
way you are ain't much anymore is it..



Come On Brandy give me something good your arguments are pointless since
you can't fight your own words that your posted. There is no reading
comprehension problem or educational ploy in it. They are your own words
repeated multiple times. Unless you are telling me that it was not you
that posted them ( hardly, unlikely and untrue ). You can't win no matter
how much you fight back your own words condemn you. Stand up, face the
music



You got to do better go back look over your words and try to understand the
word defeat



"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> The only problem you have Brandy is you were caught lying. You
>> have backed down and back pedaled you twit you already admitted
>> that you lied.
>
> No I didn't. I posted proof that I didn't because you couldn't come
> up with the "proof" that I did (because there isn't any.) Your
> reading comprehension skills simply suck and you were probably one
> of those those "no child left behind" kids that graduated without
> knowing anything.
>
> You can't re-write history babe, though I'm glad you finally figured
> out "pedaled."
>
>> No matter how much you try to make it your were right. You lied
>> and were
>> caught and also admitted it when you were confronted about the
>> subject. You were even given a chance to retract your statement
>> but than admitted that you made the call.
>
> What are you talking about??? I've always said I made the call.
> That's what the whole post was about. I never said I didn't call
> anybody. Are you on drugs?
>
> And there is a difference between "than" and "then," putting more
> power behind that fact that you don't know or can't understand
> written language.
>
>> When you finally comprehend your own lies we will graduate your
>> from crayon and etch a sketch to chalk and a stencil.
>
> How completely repetitive of you. You need some new material.
>
>
>> Don't get mad little one that no matter what you say or do you
>> lied and were caught. We don't want to see one of your tantrums
>> again
>
> I'm afraid you're going to have to spell out what I supposedly lied
> about, because I think you're extremely confused.
>
> But then, I thought you said you were done with it. I must own you.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

clifto
February 23rd 06, 10:59 PM
NanCe via CatKB.com wrote:
> But spaying and neutering is to prevent kittens from being born into a world
> that has too many; it's a necessary procedure. Declawing is just to save
> your chair.

Let me tell you from long, personal experience, front declawing doesn't do
a flopping thing to save your furniture.

--
All relevant people are pertinent.
All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
-- Solomon W. Golomb

Sherri
February 23rd 06, 11:10 PM
I did answer the declaw/softpaws question already.................. I
didnt know about them and the vet I went to back then didnt tell me
abut them. I NEVER EVER said I would do it again! And like I said of
all the cats I have had, I did it with my last 2.

Today feb 23 is the last time I'm posting or trying to defend this
topic that I chose to do.So you'll have to find some other poor soul to
**** on.

NMR
February 23rd 06, 11:27 PM
Is that the best you got spelling and punctuation? ROFLMAO

Phil I completely understand what you mean now. Someone get me some
finger paints she demoted herself from crayons to finger paints.

I am truly done right now. No matter how much is spelled out to you. It
will never sink in or be understood by you. You gave me so good laughs
Brandy but the laughs are gone and your stupidity prevails.

Please get something better than spelling and punctuation when involved in a
flame war as you stated.

Your words are there for everyone to read to make their own judgment. They
all know the truth, no one has come to your rescue.

You got caught in a lie no matter how much you say you didn't. You know
you did your thread post are still above if you want to reread your lies so
you can remember them in the future.


"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
>>>How completely repetitive of you. You need some new material.
>>
>> As soon as you learn to read I will I told you I would graduate
>> you up to using chalk and a stencil instead of crayons
>
> If you would graduate up to the use of punctuate it would be marvy.
>
>> You are one to talk since how many post have people caught you in
>> BS in the past specially the last couple days
>
> You have yet to provide any proof of that. And given it's just the
> last few days, as you claim, it should be readily available. Even
> archived out, Google keeps them for a week. The only reason you
> don't is because there is no proof, because there is no b.s. All
> you do is run around screaming LIE, LIE,,LIE, hoping to snag some
> dolt into believing you.
>
> Next.
>
>
>>
>> Can't you come up with anything better than a misused and
>> misspelled word. Oh poor baby your must be getting desperate to
>> try find anything to lash out at if that is all you got. Remember
>> your cat is not a target
>>
>> No wonder the Judge and the audience laughed at you.
>
> What are you talking about now? You are off your silly rocker.
>
> Again, punctuation, dear.
>
>
>> But I have it is in your own post can't be confused about that it
>> is your own words. I guess you can't figured out how to cover up
>> your own words.
>
> Honey, you haven't posted them back to show any kind of
> contradiction that supports whatever the heck it is you're talking
> about. I don't know, and most everyone else here doesn't know.
> You're just saying all this stuff without support.
>
>> You are to easy to laugh at it is too tempting to make you look
>> like a fool that I guess I can't help myself in responding. I
>> should stop but it is so easy since you can't help yourself being
>> a who you are ( too many laughable things to list).
>
> Meaning, you don't have anything to list, so you'll exaggerate the
> point trying to give it teeth. Yeah, smart people don't fall for
> that. Here's a clue, free of charge: People try to get away with
> things they, themselves, would be fooled by. Given how lame you
> have been, it only speaks to your personal acumen, also proven by
> your admitted inability to govern yourself.
>
>>
>> The only thing you own wash out is what ever is around you and
>> from the
>> way you are ain't much anymore is it..
>
> Oh? Another effort to make someone believe a lie? I'm very
> successful. Thanks for caring.
>
>>
>>
>> Come On Brandy give me something good your arguments are
>> pointless since you can't fight your own words that your posted.
>> There is no reading comprehension problem or educational ploy in
>> it. They are your own words repeated multiple times. Unless you
>> are telling me that it was not you that posted them ( hardly,
>> unlikely and untrue ). You can't win no matter how much you fight
>> back your own words condemn you. Stand up, face the music
>
> For the last time, what words? You're saying they exist, and in the
> last few days. So? Where are they? Why aren't you pasting them
> and pointing out the contradictions? What aren't you refuting what
> they say.
>
> Everyone here knows why. You're as remedial at flame wars as you
> are spelling and punctuation. I may make typos, but your reptitive
> errors define 5th grade education.
>


>> You got to do better go back look over your words and try to
>> understand the word defeat
>
> I did, and I even reposted them as proof to my point. You have
> none.
>
>

Sherri
February 23rd 06, 11:35 PM
Charlie wrote~~~ "BUT, there is also an element of nastiness... using
it
as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo
it if they wanted to. "

Your right, I cant undo it and they are using it a club to beat me up


Charlie wrote~~~"If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw
this cat, or
I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of
action? It's a world of untidy tradeoffs."

I got my 2 cats as kittens from the ASCPA, and there was no way I was
going to send them back. I chose to declaw. 3 yrs ago our local ASCPA
was run by a bad person.he would have KILLED my cats .I know their
brothers ,sisters and mother was killed there. My cats are lucky I came
along........declawed or not! Like I have already said,I didnt know
about softpaws then

cybercat
February 23rd 06, 11:55 PM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having
> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
> them feel like pariahs?"
>
> I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a asshole

You'll be an asshole as long as you don't regret having it done.
Period.

NMR
February 23rd 06, 11:55 PM
You causing trouble again Cyber :-)
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sherri" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having
>> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
>> them feel like pariahs?"
>>
>> I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a asshole
>
> You'll be an asshole as long as you don't regret having it done.
> Period.
>
>

PawsForThought
February 23rd 06, 11:56 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "Sherri" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having
> > already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
> > them feel like pariahs?"
> >
> > I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a asshole
>
> You'll be an asshole as long as you don't regret having it done.
> Period.

Amen.

Margarita Salt
February 23rd 06, 11:56 PM
NMR > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> Is that the best you got spelling and punctuation? ROFLMAO
>
> Phil I completely understand what you mean now. Someone get me
> some finger paints she demoted herself from crayons to finger
> paints.
>
> I am truly done right now. No matter how much is spelled out to
> you. It will never sink in or be understood by you. You gave me
> so good laughs Brandy but the laughs are gone and your stupidity
> prevails.
>
> Please get something better than spelling and punctuation when
> involved in a flame war as you stated.
>
> Your words are there for everyone to read to make their own
> judgment. They
> all know the truth, no one has come to your rescue.
>
> You got caught in a lie no matter how much you say you didn't.
> You know you did your thread post are still above if you want to
> reread your lies so you can remember them in the future.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. As for
stupidity, you proved that in another thread. Case closed. You made
accusation and couldn't back them up. I defended the accusations and
DID back it up. It's plain to anyone who may see it except you.

--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

cybercat
February 24th 06, 01:00 AM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Margarita Salt wrote"Yes, they are quit nasty and mean-spirited, and
> will twist the tiniest
> bit of information they get from you into what they think is a weapon
> they can hurt you with. Not only does it do nothing about a cat that
> is already declawed--including mine where it has been 15 years--the
> venom and vitriol does nothing to get you on their side that you might
> spread the word.
>
> They do more harm to cats in general than we may have innocently done
> to one. "
>
> I say AMEN to that !
>

Nobody cares, dimwit.

cybercat
February 24th 06, 01:04 AM
"NMR" > wrote in message
. ..
> You causing trouble again Cyber :-)

Jes' tellin' de troof, NMR.

I think little cat feet are among the most beautiful structures in the
world.

Declawing my first cat was absolutely the worst thing I have ever done in my
life. (I thought it meant just taking out the claws permanently, I had no
idea what it was until I saw what they had done. I was a teenager, but that
is no excuse--I should have asked more questions, for sure.)

I kept that kitty safe indoors and loved her for 20 years, every day knowing
what I had let them do to her little feet. And she used to bite the living
hell out of me, too. Just a bit of payback. Not nearly enough.


> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sherri" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having
> >> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
> >> them feel like pariahs?"
> >>
> >> I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a asshole
> >
> > You'll be an asshole as long as you don't regret having it done.
> > Period.
> >
> >
>
>

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 01:45 AM
On 23 Feb 2006 19:55:44 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> Margarita Salt wrote:
>> > > I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery.
>> > > IMO, that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a
>> > > mega dose of torb in her, if that truly was the case.
>> >
>> > What makes you say that? Are you a vet?
>>
>> Nope, but I was a vet tech at a high-volume feline specialty hospital,
>> among other things. The owners was a surgical specialist. We handled
>> referrals from all over the West. I assisted declawing surgeries and
>> was the primary care tech post-op for declaws.
>>
>
>Lyn, the butchers who did my cat (with my permission, which I really
>do regret and have no excuse save stupidity for) sent her home the same day.
>She kept trying to touch her feet to the floor, still woozy from the
>anesthetic, with these huge pupils. It was really horrible and she never
>should have been sent home. So they do it. They sure do.
>

Granted the procedure is painful in some degree. What was the
long-term effect on the cat, in terms of temperament and quality of
life?

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 01:49 AM
On 24 Feb 2006 00:03:34 GMT, Margarita Salt
> wrote:

>Sherri > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having
>> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by
>> making them feel like pariahs?"
>>
>> I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a
>> asshole,etc,doesnt accomplish anything at all about declawing.What
>> it did accomplish was finding out that this message board has a
>> lot of selfish, mean people. Thank God I am not a thin skinned
>> person and layed awake at night thinking about what hurtful things
>> people have called me or say to me here, or stop coming here.
>>
>> I'm still here and sleep pretty good at night :))
>>
>>
>
>Yes, they are quit nasty and mean-spirited, and will twist the tiniest
>bit of information they get from you into what they think is a weapon
>they can hurt you with. Not only does it do nothing about a cat that
>is already declawed--including mine where it has been 15 years--the
>venom and vitriol does nothing to get you on their side that you might
>spread the word.
>
>They do more harm to cats in general than we may have innocently done
>to one.

Well, no. This is a group largely composed of intelligent females. I
see lots of useful knowledge, and also a lack of perspective and
emotional stability.

How did your complaint to the veterinary board work out?

Charlie

cybercat
February 24th 06, 02:03 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 23 Feb 2006 19:55:44 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>
> >> Margarita Salt wrote:
> >> > > I can't believe they sent home a cat the day of declaw surgery.
> >> > > IMO, that's malpractice. They undoubtedly sent her home with a
> >> > > mega dose of torb in her, if that truly was the case.
> >> >
> >> > What makes you say that? Are you a vet?
> >>
> >> Nope, but I was a vet tech at a high-volume feline specialty hospital,
> >> among other things. The owners was a surgical specialist. We handled
> >> referrals from all over the West. I assisted declawing surgeries and
> >> was the primary care tech post-op for declaws.
> >>
> >
> >Lyn, the butchers who did my cat (with my permission, which I really
> >do regret and have no excuse save stupidity for) sent her home the same
day.
> >She kept trying to touch her feet to the floor, still woozy from the
> >anesthetic, with these huge pupils. It was really horrible and she never
> >should have been sent home. So they do it. They sure do.
> >
>
> Granted the procedure is painful in some degree.

When she tried to touch her feet to the floor she flinched and cried.

>What was the
> long-term effect on the cat, in terms of temperament and quality of
> life?
>

She started out pretty stupid and mean, so it is hard to tell. (She was
really beautiful. My values were a little different then. And, to tell you
the
truth, I loved her cantankerous personality.) She got really good at raking
me with her back claws, and she did begin to bite. She had never bitten
anyone before she was declawed, though she did a lot of damage with her
claws. She had especially liked shredding paper with her claws--she learned
to do it with her teeth, or her back claws, or maybe both I never caught
her.

She sometimes became a ball of muscle and fang out of nowhere--I'd
pick her up the same way every morning before feeding her, but twice
a year or so she would just turn into a fiend the instant I touched her.
She was never an affectionate cat, but as they do, she grew to be so
in the last 10 years of her life. She was very fearful, and very vocal,
but I attribute the fearfulness to the fact that she was not too terribly
bright. (Trust me on this. She wasn't. I loved her tremendously, but
part of her fun was her boneheadedness.) She once just walked up
to my sister, very slowly and laidback, we were at the kitchen table
talking, and the cat got up on her hind legs and sank her fangs into
my sister's upper arm. She had to to go the hospital.

Her feet looked really deformed, it was a major hack job from what
I have seen. They were like dust mops, no arch, it was awful. She
did not cover her mess in the litter box but I honestly do not recall if
she did when she had claws. She was declawed at 6 months old.

February 24th 06, 02:13 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Lyn, the butchers who did my cat (with my permission, which I really
> do regret and have no excuse save stupidity for) sent her home the same day.
> She kept trying to touch her feet to the floor, still woozy from the
> anesthetic, with these huge pupils. It was really horrible and she never
> should have been sent home. So they do it. They sure do.

Oh, I don't doubt that some vets do - but it's certainly not SOP for
declaw surgery. Most vets consider it major surgery and want to ensure
the cat isn't going to bleed to death before sending them home.

-L.

Rescue
February 24th 06, 02:18 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Is that the best you got spelling and punctuation? ROFLMAO

you've been reduced to a babbling idiot, lol just kidding

February 24th 06, 02:18 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Her feet looked really deformed, it was a major hack job from what
> I have seen. They were like dust mops, no arch, it was awful. She
> did not cover her mess in the litter box but I honestly do not recall if
> she did when she had claws. She was declawed at 6 months old.

FWIW, the deformity of the paws may not have had anything to do with
the quality of the surgery. Usually the toes will retract and curl up
- the paw pads then bear all the weight. Sometimes the paws end up
bascially useless - the toes have no function other than to sort of
hang off the end of the foot. No two cats heal exactly the same way,
and the tendons may or may not retract. The real "hack jobs" are
the cases where the bone regrows. Nothing worse, IMO, than regrowing
deformed bone sticking out the end of a toe.

Declawing surgery is brutal - no other word for it.

-L.

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:23 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
>>
>> Lyn, the butchers who did my cat (with my permission, which I really
>> do regret and have no excuse save stupidity for) sent her home the same
>> day.
>> She kept trying to touch her feet to the floor, still woozy from the
>> anesthetic, with these huge pupils. It was really horrible and she never
>> should have been sent home. So they do it. They sure do.
>
> Oh, I don't doubt that some vets do - but it's certainly not SOP for
> declaw surgery. Most vets consider it major surgery and want to ensure
> the cat isn't going to bleed to death before sending them home.
>
> -L.
>
My vet, the shelter's vet and our shelter policy is. They will not allow
any medical necessary declawing; noticed I said medically necessary to go
home or unsupervised for 36 to 48 hours. Medical necessary is the only
reason they do it after alternatives option have been expended.

I still remember helping out animal control once to save a cat that had
chewed the bandages off and the wounds opened up. Poor thing almost bleed to
death because the stupid owner got the cat declawed because it ripped a
hole in her stockings. Lucky the neighbor called and reported bloody smears
on the window, cops kicked the door in and found the cat

Sherri
February 24th 06, 02:24 AM
**** off bitch!

February 24th 06, 02:25 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Yet you never recognized that you were causing her behavior. So you
> > declawed a *3* year old cat.
> >
>
> I was not. You're just using your own personal assumption as flame
> material. Do you know how stupid that makes you look. You don't know,
> you weren't there, you aren't me, and you don't know my cat. Enough
> said.
>

<shurg>

Where have I flamed you in this thread? I am trying to educate you
(and the general reader), Brandy.

Those kinds of behaviors aren't natural to a domestic cat. Something
caused it - either something in the environment or the way you
interacted with the cat. IIRC from past posts, it was *your*
interaction with the cat that caused the behavior. I can pull up the
specifics, if you like, but since you have no interest in learning from
this experience with Kami, I'm not inclined to waste my time. These
sorts of behaviors can be prevented and corrected, without declawing,
if you have interest in doing so.

I may just pull them up and post them so that anyone else who wants to
learn from the experience can. I suspect there are others who have had
similar experiences and don't understand why the cat is behaving in
this manner. Cats are predictable, and trainable, if you know what to
look for and how to respond.

-L.

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:25 AM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> **** off bitch!
>

Ouch Language my poor ears

February 24th 06, 02:28 AM
Sherri wrote:
> **** off bitch!

Sherri, Hon, if you are going to tell someone to **** off, it's
generally a good idea to quote the material to which you are resonding.
Otherwise you are simply shouting epithets into thin air.

HTH and HAND,
-L.

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:31 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
:
>> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>


Bad L trying to educate the general reader :-)

February 24th 06, 02:39 AM
NMR wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> :
> >> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >>
>
>
> Bad L trying to educate the general reader :-)

Yeah, God forbid Usenet would actually serve a constructive purpose,
eh? ;)
-L.

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:41 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> NMR wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> :
>> >> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> >>
>>
>>
>> Bad L trying to educate the general reader :-)
>
> Yeah, God forbid Usenet would actually serve a constructive purpose,
> eh? ;)
> -L.
>

No a useful constructive purpose ooh no can on dream

February 24th 06, 02:43 AM
Phil P. wrote:

>
> LMAO! What a crock of bull****!

Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time. At this point it
doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try to
have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen and
learn anything. Which, of course, its really sad bcause she's likely
to declaw another cat in the future.

I think people like her are the ones who sadden me the most. They fail
to recognize how they could have done things differently and had a
positive outcome.

-L.

Phil P.
February 24th 06, 02:47 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> NMR > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>
> >>How completely repetitive of you. You need some new material.
> >
> > As soon as you learn to read I will I told you I would graduate
> > you up to using chalk and a stencil instead of crayons
>
> If you would graduate up to the use of punctuate it would be marvy.


That's hilarious coming from a high school drop out! LOL!

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:47 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
>>
>> LMAO! What a crock of bull****!
>
> Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time. At this point it
> doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try to
> have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen and
> learn anything. Which, of course, its really sad bcause she's likely
> to declaw another cat in the future.
>
> I think people like her are the ones who sadden me the most. They fail
> to recognize how they could have done things differently and had a
> positive outcome.
>
> -L.

Hey I broke out the crayons, the etch a sketch even the finger paints
nothing worked. I gave up no she is just a laughable subject

Phil P.
February 24th 06, 02:47 AM
"D." > wrote in message
ink.net...
> In article >,
> Margarita Salt > wrote:
>
> > "The veterinary board in NJ is reviewing the Maxshouse site and
> > potential the facility for violations."
>
> potential the facility? Hmmm.


Yeah, isn't that funny? What do you expect from a high school drop out?
You can easily see she's a sleazy liar because veterinary associations don't
and *can't* inspect animal shelters- that's not their function. That shows
you what years of crack and cocaine did to her brain.

NMR
February 24th 06, 02:48 AM
THERE IS THE MAN!

"

Phil P.
February 24th 06, 02:51 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> > Yet you never recognized that you were causing her behavior. So you
> > declawed a *3* year old cat.
> >
>
> I was not.


Your own account of the situation left no doubt that you certainly were
responsible.


You're just using your own personal assumption as flame
> material.


Actually she's simply using plain logic and damned sound reasoning. It only
seems like "flame material" to you because you can't sleaze out of it.


> Do you know how stupid that makes you look.


Actually, you're the one who looks stupid and like a sleazy manipulator.


You don't know,
> you weren't there, you aren't me, and you don't know my cat.


....but we do *know* what *you* said. Maybe you should start archiving your
posts so you'll remember your stories and maybe won't get caught in your own
lies and bull**** stories.


Enough
> said.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you'll trip yourself up again. You can't
help it.

cybercat
February 24th 06, 03:26 AM
> wrote:

Sometimes the paws end up
> bascially useless - the toes have no function other than to sort of
> hang off the end of the foot.

That is what hers were like.

cybercat
February 24th 06, 03:32 AM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> **** off bitch!
>

If you include a snippet of the post to which you are replying, we will know
which bitch you are replying too.
Asshole. :)

NMR
February 24th 06, 04:10 AM
"Margarita Salt" >


Oh god the junkie came back hide the cat

NMR
February 24th 06, 04:12 AM
"Margarita Salt" >

The truth shall set you free unfortunately you have no idea what the truth
is

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 04:20 AM
On 24 Feb 2006 03:03:43 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:
>>
>> Granted the procedure is painful in some degree.
>
>When she tried to touch her feet to the floor she flinched and cried.
>
>>What was the
>> long-term effect on the cat, in terms of temperament and quality of
>> life?
>>
>
>She started out pretty stupid and mean, so it is hard to tell. (She was
>really beautiful. My values were a little different then. And, to tell you
>the
>truth, I loved her cantankerous personality.) She got really good at raking
>me with her back claws, and she did begin to bite. She had never bitten
>anyone before she was declawed, though she did a lot of damage with her
>claws. She had especially liked shredding paper with her claws--she learned
>to do it with her teeth, or her back claws, or maybe both I never caught
>her.
>
>She sometimes became a ball of muscle and fang out of nowhere--I'd
>pick her up the same way every morning before feeding her, but twice
>a year or so she would just turn into a fiend the instant I touched her.
>She was never an affectionate cat, but as they do, she grew to be so
>in the last 10 years of her life. She was very fearful, and very vocal,
>but I attribute the fearfulness to the fact that she was not too terribly
>bright. (Trust me on this. She wasn't. I loved her tremendously, but
>part of her fun was her boneheadedness.) She once just walked up
>to my sister, very slowly and laidback, we were at the kitchen table
>talking, and the cat got up on her hind legs and sank her fangs into
>my sister's upper arm. She had to to go the hospital.
>
>Her feet looked really deformed, it was a major hack job from what
>I have seen. They were like dust mops, no arch, it was awful. She
>did not cover her mess in the litter box but I honestly do not recall if
>she did when she had claws. She was declawed at 6 months old.
>
The reason I ask is because I think long-term quality of life is a
more important consideration than the pain of the operation. Your
description of your cat, with her pupils dilated, reminds me of the
bathroom cat after I got him neutered. It was probably painful for a
few days.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 04:31 AM
On 24 Feb 2006 02:12:17 GMT, Margarita Salt
> wrote:

>Charlie Wilkes > wrote in
>rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>>
>> Well, no. This is a group largely composed of intelligent
>> females. I see lots of useful knowledge, and also a lack of
>> perspective and emotional stability.
>>
>> How did your complaint to the veterinary board work out?
>>
>> Charlie
>
>Haven't heard anything. I'm sure they have more pressing matters and

Undoubtedly they do.

>will get to it when they can. They said they'll look into it and
>that's the best I can do.

I predict they won't see the web site as a problem. For purposes of
comparison, you might look at some alternative medicine sites where
non-professional people offer their acquired wisdom about Prozac and
every other controversial form of medical treatment.

Charlie

cybercat
February 24th 06, 04:40 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote > >
> The reason I ask is because I think long-term quality of life is a
> more important consideration than the pain of the operation. Your
> description of your cat, with her pupils dilated, reminds me of the
> bathroom cat after I got him neutered. It was probably painful for a
> few days.
>

Yes, I see. That moment, when I realized what I had done to her,
sticks out in my mind due to the horror of it.

But my comments regarding declawing come from my having chosen
to have it done to a cat I then had for 20 years, and having now had
two whole cats for five years and seeing the difference. It is hard to
say how declawing effecte my first cat because I had it done when
she was six months old and had her for 20 years. I did not have that
much time to see how she was whole.

I do see a big difference between my two whole cats now and my
first cat. And, again, I cannot be sure it is not just their personalities
that make them so different. But they are relaxed, they seek me for
affection, they are both loathe to put their claws out, neither has ever
bitten seriously, and they clearly trust us. I have to admit, a large
part of my happiness at having them comes from my watching what
whole cats can do that my declawed cats cannot. They are totally
different in play. Their front paws work.

One thing all three have in common: they were strays/allegedly ferals,
I did not raise them from kittenhood.

I'll always feel bad for declawing my first cat. It's just taking
responsibility
for making what I see as a really big, cruel mistake. It may be "only a
cat,"
e.g. I did not mutilate a human, but, man, that creature was helpless and in
my care. Nobody could have done that to her unless I let them and I did.
It was a good early lesson. I am not masochistic about it but I do accept
responsibility.

February 24th 06, 06:41 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> You're also not a teacher and how dare you presume to teach me
> anything. Arrogant jerk.
>

Arrogant (and ignorant) is the jerk who does not approach every person
as a teacher.

'Nuff said.

-L.

February 24th 06, 06:50 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> I'll always feel bad for declawing my first cat. It's just taking
> responsibility
> for making what I see as a really big, cruel mistake. It may be "only a
> cat,"
> e.g. I did not mutilate a human, but, man, that creature was helpless and in
> my care. Nobody could have done that to her unless I let them and I did.
> It was a good early lesson. I am not masochistic about it but I do accept
> responsibility.

You learned from it and that's all anyone can ask. Back then, I don't
think the truth about declawing was as well-known as it is now.

As for behavior, the one underlying behavior I have seen in declawed
cats is fear. They tend to run away, frightened, much more easily than
other cats, and/or strike out in fear more readily. Unfortunately cats
that are fearful to begin with and have fear-related aggression are
some of the cats most likely to be declawed. And declawing them only
makes them worse.

-L.

-L.
February 24th 06, 08:44 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> **** you! Stop being such a pinhead and believing everything Phil
> says. He has NEVER provide proof of these things he accuses me

Well, despite your x-n-a addiction, what happened with your cat *is*
archived.

Apparently the cat was "too wild" for you and bit and scratched you.
You posted that the cat had complications from the surgery and that
you were sorry you did it. Surprise, surprise - you trained the cat to
bite, declawed it because it scratched and bit, and after declawing,
it started biting more...

Here are your "excuses", (from your own posts)...

First:

Message-ID: >

"I just came to this group and I'm sure there are bunch of messages on
this subject but I can't find the all. But let me tell you about my
(Kami's) declawing.

Everyone has a different reason for declawing their cat. I think
declawing "just because it's an indoor cat" is wrong. Declawing
because your cat is wrecking your furniture is wrong. But my cat was
wrecking
ME. She has a Jekyll/Hyde personality and if you're not petting
properly
or quickly enough BAM! If you scoot the bed hog over too many times
BAM!
She will just dive into you and give you hell for it.

But I love her dearly. She has an amazing personality. All her life,
whenever I pass her by I reach out and touch her. She has come to
equate this soft pat with affection and returns it. She'll me on the
couch
behind me and just reach out and put her paw on my shoulder. She'll
pat me in the head in the morning when she thinks I'm awake and poke me
in
the eyes (lightly) when I'm faking sleep. All this touching with
claws,
and the other stuff, made co-existence WITH claws impossible.

But now she's learned to bite real good. She had every complication
possible with the operation and if I ever had to give her up there
wouldn't be hardly anybody that would want to keep her indoors because
she is an all out shedding machine.

Declawing is a personal choice, we make decisions for our children and
we make decision for our animals. Although in a way I regret the
decision I made for Kami we love each other and to say that I should
have a
different kind of pet is simply out of the question."

**********
Then this gem. Note the complications from the surgery, the fact that
the cat is clearly maimed ("slips and falls") and apparently suffers
pain from the declawing (evidenced by the "holding up" of the paw -
known in the veterinary world as failure to bear weight)...

Message-ID: >

"Kami's been pretty much the same. She just has a slightly bigger
vetphobia. She had the surgical glue or whatever heal inside and they
had to
reopen the toes. She bites a little harder now and slips and falls
more often.
She too holds one paw up on occasion.

But she was attacking the human of the house and I have the scars to
show for it. She's more cuddly than before because I'm not always
shoving her
away for digging into me. Now she'll lay on my chest and rest her paws
across
my face (and smother me) and I don't even flinch.

The biggest problem I've found is visiting my sister's cat and
forgetting about the claws.... :)"

******

And this gem:
Message-ID: >

"Kami has been caught looking me over for an exposed bit of skin to
bite. She would rather not waste her time trying to get me through my
clothes.

I was told the problem starts when they're kittens and you let them
bite and play with your bare hands. Of course it doesn't hurt at that
age, but
that's where they learn that it's okay to bite people. I have had no
luck
training my mistakes out of my cat. I just dress as much as I can and
hide
under my covers when she's in "a mood".

I regret but it was necessary. We all make decisions for our kids and
animals. I always like to ask the militant no-declawers if their sons
are circumsized (sp). ;)"

*****

And finally:
Message-ID: >

"I haven't noticed any more or less, really, but I do know that it's
easier to get away when she can't hold on. ;) She is "oral" oriented
is is an unrepentant chewer. That part of it means she bites is no
surprise. She's been launching Kamikaze flying attacks since the day
I brought her home. The cable guy stepped on her tail once and she
didn't hide from him the rest of the time like most cats might. She
sat on the stairs and plotted revenge, carefully looking him up and
down for the best attack point, the end of her tail softly twitching
back and forth. She waited until he was done, packed his stuff, and
headed for the door then she just flew at his ankles.

The vet said spaying should calm her, but it didn't. Spray bottles
sat conveniently all around the house, but she would just hunch up and
take the punishment and go right back to what she was doing (like some
2-
year old kids I know). The vet recommended drugging her, but I liked
her spunk and playfulness when she wasn't trying to shred someone. I
don't want just a fluffy couch ornament--she's my pal. I simply do
not think that declawing her under the circumstances was wrong
regardless
of what these ignorant zealots declare they know about me and my
life."
***************

After reading all of your posts, one has to wonder if you ever even
*tried* trimming the Kami's nails.

You need serious lessons in cat behavior, and truly, should
never have aquired a cat because you apparently know so little about
them.

>From a clinical standpoint, we have evidence of overstimulation and
play aggression by the owner (constant touching/hand playing/allowing
biting), defensive
behavior by the cat (scratching and biting), inappropriate punishment
(squirt bottle overuse/abuse), and poor veterinary counseling
(apparently no good behavior modification counseling/referral for drug
therapy to treat the behavior(!) when, in fact, the owner was
*clearly* the problem). Not to mention the botched declaw surgery and
poor post-operative care by a half-assed vet.

My guess would be that the same vet that was so
inept at identifying the cause of the behavior is the same one who
used surgical glue to seal the wounds, despite the fact that surgical
glue has been indicated in the formation of crystalline granulomas in
delcawed cats (What you refer to as "she had the surgical glue or
whatever heal inside".)

**********
Here is another exchange where two other posters basically told you
exactly what I have told you here.

You describe what Kami was doing, Megan responded,
you have a volitile reaction (as is your habit), and then someone
agrees with Megan and provides plenty of links to back her up. As I
said before, Kami didn't have a problem that couldn't have been easily
corrected if you had simply learned to pay attention to the signals she
was sending you:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/msg/5049a9c6566b80b1


Path:
archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshu b2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md. home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "carbook" >
Newsgroups: alt.gossip.celebrities
References: >
>
>
Subject: Re: O/T - Cat Scratching solutions?
Lines: 64
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: >
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 04:30:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.13.243.220
X-Complaints-To:
X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1009341058 24.13.243.220 (Tue, 25 Dec
2001 20:30:58 PST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:30:58 PST
Organization: [email protected] - The Leader in Broadband
http://home.com/faster


"Brandy Alexandre®" > wrote in message
. 22...
> After serious umbilicus contemplation, wrote in
> :
>
> > Brandy wrote:
> >
> >>She is very sweet 95% of the time and
> >>very tactile, which made the claw thing
> >>rather difficult. And that other 5% made
> >>the claw thing torturous. We could be
> >>laying in bed and she all laid out loving
> >>the petting, resting her head on my hand, and she would lightly lay
> >>her teeth in skin for some unknown reason.
> >>You next move at this point will make all
> >>the difference between nothing more than a drool kiss and all out
> >>war.
> >
> > This type of behavior has been called "Don't pet me anymore"
> > aggression, and is easily avoided by learning to read the cats body
> > language and stopping physical contact before the cat gets past the
> > point of no return. Declawing a cat that exhibits this behavior is
> > not necessary.
> >
> > Megan
> >
>
> Oh, now you're suddenly and behavior expert and know exactly what goes
> on in my home for what reason from the breif explanation of a long and
> complex problem. I see. You have proven yourself quite a close-minded
> zealot and now you're just insane.
>
> *PLONK*
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre
> http://kamikaze.org (Adults Only)

Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean she isn't right. It
*is*
a recognized cat trait. Yours certainly isn't the only cat that has
acted
that way, nor will it be the last. There are vets and other's who have
cataloged and researched cat behaviors, and a quick search of the web
would
have brought this information up.

You can check...
http://64.87.126.141/behavior/cathumag.htm
http://www.sthuberts.org/petpouri/articles/dont.htm
http://pets.msn.com/cats/care/article4.asp
http://www.catcaresociety.org/aggression.htm
http://www.paws.org/work/factsheet/catfactsheets/cataggression2.html
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/e-vets/catbehavior/cataggression2.html
just for a start.

And she's right, declawing doesn't stop this type of behavior, as the
cat
will just go to bitting in the future instead of clawing when they've
reached their limit. Much easier to learn to read the cat's body
language
and avoid the moment all together.

Carbook"

*****
Despite all of this evidence, you still fail to take responsibility for
creating a situation that could have been prevented, and then resorting
to declawing to "solve" the "problem." What you discovered is that Kami
became more fearful and aggressive, which is the exact outcome Megan,
or Phil, or I, or anyone who works in animal rescue could have
predicted.

In the future, I can only hope that someday you will read what is
written here and take it to heart. Learn from your mistake and never
again declaw a cat, or if you are inclined to declaw again, refrain
from acquiring another cat.

This cat was doomed from day one, and this is *exactly* why I am very,
very careful about to whom I rehome cats. Some fates are worse than
humane euthanasia.

But posts like yours serve a purpose. They are very useful in teaching
the public about the problems associated with declaw surgery, and they
are excellent ammunition in the fight to get this barbaric practice
banned. For this, we can only thank you.

Sadly, one cannot help but pity Kami for her years of suffering.

-L.

***keywords Brandy Alexandre Kami declaw aggression bite biting claw
nail

February 24th 06, 09:33 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:

> I can't dispute this. But, I recognize that many people are unaware,
> or don't believe, it is cruel. They think it is ok as long as the cat
> is kept indoors. If they show up as newbies in this group, having
> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
> them feel like pariahs?
>

This is an excellent point. I hate declawing and think it is horrible,
but I don't see much point in attacking people who have already had it
done. It can't be undone, and very few people really listen when they
are being attacked.

I really believe that most problems such as overbreeding, declawing,
etc can only be improved by education. We have to tell people, one at a
time, why something is wrong and should not be done, and it needs to be
done in a way that encourages people to look into and see for
themselves.

I just had somebody at work a couple days ago ask me if my cats were
declawed. Everybody at work knows I am crazy for cats. I felt a little
insulted that somebody might think I declawed my cats, but I could see
from her face that it was an honest question, and she had no clue why
somebody would not declaw a cat. So, I explained what the declawing
procedure actually does and what kind of problems are associated with
it. I never got angry (kept my insulted feelings to myself), and
hopefully, she will remember that if she ever feels faced with that
decision or ends up discussing it with somebody else.

I think we have to remind ourselves that we didn't always know as much
as we do now, and we are only a small portion of the population. A lot
of people do not know about mailing lists and newsgroups. They aren't
skilled at searching the internet for accurate information on vet care
and other pet related issues.

I have a lot of friends and family who are online, but even though i
have showed several of them, none of them remember to go the newsgroup
archives to search for information. Every time I have a computer
problem (software or hardware), I go to the newsgroups. Odds are,
somebody else has asked the question, and it has been answered and
archived. I get a lot of my troubleshooting done that way. It is a very
valuable tool to me. But I only know about newsgroups because a friend
in college showed me back in 1993. Even now, a lot of new users think
they are chat rooms. They do not realize what a great resource they
are.

I know I have learned a lot from the newsgroups over the years. Not
just this one. I had no idea what a Balinese cat was until I had one
and somebody told me why my Siamese was so fluffy (and getting
fluffier).

I grew up thinking backyard breeders were good, and show breeders were
the same as mills. I learned over the years that backyard breeders do
not test for health issues, don't do a lot of things, and are really
out for the money. And show breeders need to be judged on an individual
basis. Some do the testing and a lot of work, but a responsible breeder
is pretty rare. Best to stick with shelters and rescuing those who need
homes. This is a huge change for me since I came to this group in 1993
as the daughter of a backyard breeder. I had to change my thinking from
what I had been raised to believe, to what reality is. And not only did
I do that, but I got my mom to stop breeding. She had her female spayed
the same day as I got mine spayed, after I did a ton of reasearch to
convince her. You see, she gave me Kira with the agreement that she
would breed her.

When I joined this group, I had 3 cats - Fiona, Maynard, and Kira. And
one dog, Seusy. Fiona was the daugter of my sister's cat. Maynard was
the accidental litter from my mom's cat (she chewed through a screen
window the day before my mom arranged for a siamese male). And Kira was
from my mom's younger cat. All 3 cats were products of backyard
breeding, and all healthy, so I was not inclined to change my opinion.
Kira is 11 1/2 years old now, and the very last of the backyard
breeding. This group educated me, and I am doing my best to encourage
people to spay and neuter, adopt shelter cats (and dogs), and
discourage breeding.

I took Jay Jay to a show last weekend to compete in the household pet
class. They had 17 cats entered im that class, a very good showing, and
it was great to promote the shelter cats. I had a lot of people stop by
my booth, asking about Jay Jay because he is a gorgeous cat. He might
be a purebred (he looks it), but I suspect a mix. I felt great telling
people who was from a shelter. Several spectators were surprised and
pleased to learn that they could get involved in showing their own best
buddy without having to buy a purebred. And I loved pointing to the
shelter cats for adoption and letting people know that is where I got
my cat.

If we want to educate people, we need to be open enough to keep them
here (and listening). Sending them away won't keep them from declawing
their next cat or stop somebody from breeding their cat again.

Just in this discussion, I realized that a lot of people make the
effort to buy a cat tree ( or even more than one), but they don't buy
the right ones because there are a lot of bad models out there that
look nice but are essentially useless. Rather than scream at people to
buy a cat tree, maybe we should make good solid recommendations at what
kinds to buy so that they are successful. I'm working on some pages to
add to my website about adopting shelter cats and dogs. After
considering this issue, I think I would like to put up a page with
photos of cat trees and what to look for and what to avoid. Perhaps if
a variety of websites did that, then people who are looking for
information on cat trees or declawing, will find them and go out and
get the right kind of cat tree for their cat. A very simple way to make
a difference. And it can be done in a nice, educational way.

-L.
February 24th 06, 09:54 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> That's a lot of money for one procedure. Was declawing the mainstay
> of this guy's practice?

I don't know if I would say "mainstay" - but he did a lot of them.

> How many cats would he have to declaw in a
> year to pull in 100k of revenue?

I'd have to search the posts to see if I posted the data. IIRC we did
between 3-8 a day, as many as 10/day sometimes.

If we did an average of 5 per day, 4 days a week, 50 weeks per year,
at $100/surgery, that's $100K/year. IIIRC we charged around $150.00
though, and sometimes did them on Fridays too.

<snip>

> >
> >I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it,
> >thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the
> >post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then
> >there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all
> >over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd
> >ever condone the practice.
> >
> I can't dispute this. But, I recognize that many people are unaware,
> or don't believe, it is cruel. They think it is ok as long as the cat
> is kept indoors. If they show up as newbies in this group, having
> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
> them feel like pariahs?

Education is the key. But one has to be open to learning. If they
aren't open to learning, well, what can you do? The problem is that it
is an emotional issue.

>
> If declawing is a social evil, it is one that should be addressed by
> law, I think.

It is very hard to get the laws passed because of the vet lobby. W.
Hollywood passed a law - I am not sure where else it is being
considered.


> As long as it is legal and provided as a service by
> many, if not most, vets, then I think quite a few people will assume
> it is a viable option, and lambasting them after the fact is ****ing
> in the wind.

Not necessarily. Maybe they will look again at the procedure and try
to understand why people are so upset about it. Many people declaw
once and then never again. Most people who do it do it out of
ignorance.

>
> After all, we live in a society where warning labels are printed on 5
> gallon buckets... "Don't fill with water and submerge your toddler."

Actually that's a warning to not allow toddlers unattended around
buckets because their heads are so big they easily fall head-first in
to them. If the bucket is partially full, the toddler drowns. Seems
like a no-brainer to you and I but....


> With that level of legal boilerplate permeating the culture, people
> tend to assume that all bad things have been outlawed, and conversely,
> that all lawful options are sound and reasonable.

I believe the general public thinks this way, but I have hope that
*some* people are smarter than that...

-L.

-L.
February 24th 06, 09:56 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes
> along with it:
>
> "While under the influence of Angel Dust this man decided to peel off
> his own face using pieces of a broken mirror and feed the strips of
> flesh to his pet dogs. He survived due to the large abounts of drugs
> anesthetizing his system. The dogs were removed by police to the
> animal shelter, where their stomachs were pumped, resulting in the
> recovery of pieces of the man´s face, lips, and nose."
>
> Nice to know that picture is still out there to educate the public
> about the dangers of drug abuse.
>
> Charlie

LOL...I guess that's where Thomas Harris got the idea then. This
reminds me of "Reefer Madness" from the 50's. I did some massive
quantities of Dust in the 70's and never once cut of my face. In fact,
I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;)
-L.

Phil P.
February 24th 06, 11:03 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> LMAO! What a crock of bull****!
> >
> > Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time. At this point it
> > doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try
> > to have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen
> > and learn anything.
>
> Why do you two insist one beating an issue that's a decade and a half
> old?

Because you're still *LYING* about it to this day. You said Kami was *3*
when you had her declawed and you were no longer in the porno business.
Explain how Kami was three years old when you had her declawed and she had
her claws for *six years*- LIAR!

You also said Kami was born in 1988 and that you got out of the porn
business in 1993-- Now, if Kami had her claws for 6 years- as *you* said,
(follow this close) that means Kami had her claws for *6 years* while you
were *still* in the porno business.

If you declawed Kami 15 years ago, and she had her claws for 6 years-- that
would make her *21*- you lying moron! I'd bet you sure wish you finished
high school math now, don't you? LOL!

Here's *incontrovertible* proof you're a liar:

Date: 15 Mar 2005 18:53:43
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"


Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

>
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
> message
> news:[email protected] eranews...
>> Lesley Madigan > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>> > or in
>> > Redunzel's case slip and have to hang onto the curtains.
>> >
>>
>> Velcro Kitty! That was one of Kami's favorite self amusements.
>> She wouldn't do it by falling, just a running leap at the sliding
>> glass door to see where she would stick. I'd know she was
>> playing it when I heard the thud. Maybe that's why she's
>> warped--brain damage from hitting the glass. Luckily she grew
>> out of it, and it was time for the apartment to change the drapes
>> anyway...
>>
>
> How did she do this with no front claws?
>
>
>

She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity. She
got to be too heavy for it.

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?




Date: 15 Mar 2005 13:55:40
From: Mary
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"


"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
message
news:[email protected] eranews...
> Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
> > message
> > news:[email protected] eranews...
> >> Lesley Madigan > wrote in
> >> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >>
> >> > or in
> >> > Redunzel's case slip and have to hang onto the curtains.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Velcro Kitty! That was one of Kami's favorite self amusements.
> >> She wouldn't do it by falling, just a running leap at the sliding
> >> glass door to see where she would stick. I'd know she was
> >> playing it when I heard the thud. Maybe that's why she's
> >> warped--brain damage from hitting the glass. Luckily she grew
> >> out of it, and it was time for the apartment to change the drapes
> >> anyway...
> >>
> >
> > How did she do this with no front claws?
> >
> >
> >
>
> She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity.
She
> got to be too heavy for it.
>
>
I'm sure you know that you were unbelievably cruel
to declaw a 6-year-old cat--or a cat of any age.
Still, I have to point it out.





Date: 15 Mar 2005 20:43:59
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"

Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> I'm sure you know that you were unbelievably cruel
> to declaw a 6-year-old cat--or a cat of any age.
> Still, I have to point it out.

Blah, blah, blah. We've been over this here a bazillion times. Go to
google and leave it alone.

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?


http://www.cat-forum.net/health/Do_cats_really_know_no_306356.html



Lets see you try to sleaze out of this one!

(Somebody please repost this so the sleazy liar can't say she didn't see it)

Netmask
February 24th 06, 11:09 AM
I'm nearly 70 and have had cats continuously since birth - never attacked
and of course never declawed which is big time illegal. My experience has
shown me that in most cases of skittish behaviour, leaving out medical
problems, is inconsistent dealing with your cats. You need to establish YOU
are the alpha cat and maintain that stand. Giving them away is only giving
someone else your problem except where you can arrange for it to be taken in
on a farm as a farm cat, free to roam etc

The other thing is you must give your cats a 'place of their own' where they
are safe from predators and wild life is safe from them. We constructed a
cat walk accessible from inside the house, up and over the roof and into a
bamboo grove - all enclosed. They are free to roam in this contained area
day and night. result - happy and loving passive cats, well socialised,
love visitors and strangely little children especially. Naturally they are
Burmese!!!


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats
> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my
> cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite,
> nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work
> at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw
>
> I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my
> husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them
> after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I
> chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them
> possibly not have the good life they do now.
>
> BTW~~ I have a 6 yr.
>

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 12:03 PM
On 24 Feb 2006 01:33:49 -0800, "
> wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
>> I can't dispute this. But, I recognize that many people are unaware,
>> or don't believe, it is cruel. They think it is ok as long as the cat
>> is kept indoors. If they show up as newbies in this group, having
>> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making
>> them feel like pariahs?
>>
>
>This is an excellent point. I hate declawing and think it is horrible,
>but I don't see much point in attacking people who have already had it
>done. It can't be undone, and very few people really listen when they
>are being attacked.

That has been my experience. It is easy to take a line on something
and make a lot of valid points, but less easy to persuade someone to
revamp their thinking.

I have a book about serial killers, written by a retired FBI agent.
He spent his career developing profiles so the police would have some
idea of what sort of person they ought to be looking for as the
perpetrator of a given style of murder. To develop these profiles, he
interviewed serial killers. He wanted to persuade them to do
something many of them were reluctant to do -- to open up and describe
the details of how they felt and how they planned and executed their
crimes. One of his techniques was to start the interview by saying
something positive about the person. In the case of Charles Manson,
for example, he began by noting Manson's exceptional ability to
attract followers. He was very successful in getting the information
he needed.
>
>I really believe that most problems such as overbreeding, declawing,
>etc can only be improved by education. We have to tell people, one at a
>time, why something is wrong and should not be done, and it needs to be
>done in a way that encourages people to look into and see for
>themselves.
>
>I just had somebody at work a couple days ago ask me if my cats were
>declawed. Everybody at work knows I am crazy for cats. I felt a little
>insulted that somebody might think I declawed my cats, but I could see
>from her face that it was an honest question, and she had no clue why
>somebody would not declaw a cat. So, I explained what the declawing
>procedure actually does and what kind of problems are associated with
>it. I never got angry (kept my insulted feelings to myself), and
>hopefully, she will remember that if she ever feels faced with that
>decision or ends up discussing it with somebody else.
>
>I think we have to remind ourselves that we didn't always know as much
>as we do now, and we are only a small portion of the population. A lot
>of people do not know about mailing lists and newsgroups. They aren't
>skilled at searching the internet for accurate information on vet care
>and other pet related issues.

Exactly. Lots of people think declawing is a normal, mainstream,
acceptable way to keep an indoor cat from destroying the furniture.
>
>I have a lot of friends and family who are online, but even though i
>have showed several of them, none of them remember to go the newsgroup
>archives to search for information. Every time I have a computer
>problem (software or hardware), I go to the newsgroups. Odds are,
>somebody else has asked the question, and it has been answered and
>archived. I get a lot of my troubleshooting done that way. It is a very
>valuable tool to me. But I only know about newsgroups because a friend
>in college showed me back in 1993. Even now, a lot of new users think
>they are chat rooms. They do not realize what a great resource they
>are.
>
>I know I have learned a lot from the newsgroups over the years. Not
>just this one. I had no idea what a Balinese cat was until I had one
>and somebody told me why my Siamese was so fluffy (and getting
>fluffier).
>
>I grew up thinking backyard breeders were good, and show breeders were
>the same as mills. I learned over the years that backyard breeders do
>not test for health issues, don't do a lot of things, and are really
>out for the money. And show breeders need to be judged on an individual
>basis. Some do the testing and a lot of work, but a responsible breeder
>is pretty rare. Best to stick with shelters and rescuing those who need
>homes. This is a huge change for me since I came to this group in 1993
>as the daughter of a backyard breeder. I had to change my thinking from
>what I had been raised to believe, to what reality is. And not only did
>I do that, but I got my mom to stop breeding. She had her female spayed
>the same day as I got mine spayed, after I did a ton of reasearch to
>convince her. You see, she gave me Kira with the agreement that she
>would breed her.
>
>When I joined this group, I had 3 cats - Fiona, Maynard, and Kira. And
>one dog, Seusy. Fiona was the daugter of my sister's cat. Maynard was
>the accidental litter from my mom's cat (she chewed through a screen
>window the day before my mom arranged for a siamese male). And Kira was
>from my mom's younger cat. All 3 cats were products of backyard
>breeding, and all healthy, so I was not inclined to change my opinion.
>Kira is 11 1/2 years old now, and the very last of the backyard
>breeding. This group educated me, and I am doing my best to encourage
>people to spay and neuter, adopt shelter cats (and dogs), and
>discourage breeding.
>
>I took Jay Jay to a show last weekend to compete in the household pet
>class. They had 17 cats entered im that class, a very good showing, and
>it was great to promote the shelter cats. I had a lot of people stop by
>my booth, asking about Jay Jay because he is a gorgeous cat. He might
>be a purebred (he looks it), but I suspect a mix. I felt great telling
>people who was from a shelter. Several spectators were surprised and
>pleased to learn that they could get involved in showing their own best
>buddy without having to buy a purebred. And I loved pointing to the
>shelter cats for adoption and letting people know that is where I got
>my cat.
>
>If we want to educate people, we need to be open enough to keep them
>here (and listening). Sending them away won't keep them from declawing
>their next cat or stop somebody from breeding their cat again.
>
>Just in this discussion, I realized that a lot of people make the
>effort to buy a cat tree ( or even more than one), but they don't buy
>the right ones because there are a lot of bad models out there that
>look nice but are essentially useless. Rather than scream at people to
>buy a cat tree, maybe we should make good solid recommendations at what
>kinds to buy so that they are successful. I'm working on some pages to
>add to my website about adopting shelter cats and dogs. After
>considering this issue, I think I would like to put up a page with
>photos of cat trees and what to look for and what to avoid. Perhaps if
>a variety of websites did that, then people who are looking for
>information on cat trees or declawing, will find them and go out and
>get the right kind of cat tree for their cat. A very simple way to make
>a difference. And it can be done in a nice, educational way.

I built a cat tree for my cat, but he doesn't like it. He's afraid of
heights, believe it or not. He's not very destructive, though, and he
is very gentle with his claws. I think he's about the friendliest cat
I've ever known, and certainly the most unflappable. Nothing seems to
bother him.

Charlie

Phil P.
February 24th 06, 12:14 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>
> >
> > LMAO! What a crock of bull****!
>
> Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time.


She's worse than a waste of time- she's a clear and present danger to cats.


At this point it
> doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try to
> have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen and
> learn anything. Which, of course, its really sad bcause she's likely
> to declaw another cat in the future.

> I think people like her are the ones who sadden me the most. They fail
> to recognize how they could have done things differently and had a
> positive outcome.
>

Do you remember she said she posts here to "vent" so she "doesn't take it
out on Kami"? --clearly implying she would take her anger and frustrations
out on Kami. In another post referring to when she had Kami declawed, she
said "15 years ago, before there was even a mildly available internet."
What do you think life was like for poor Kami "before there was even a
mildly available internet" when Brandy had no place to "vent"? I'm
reasonably sure Kami's present personality and behavioral problems are the
result of years of abuse and mistreatment.

Her whole story is a lie. Kami was at least *6* when she had her declawed.
Brandy said Kami was born in 1988 and that she left the porno business in
1993. Thus, Kami was not declawed after Brandy left the business- she had
her claws for 6 years *while* Brandy was still in the business . Even
though Brandy deleted or no-archived the post about the makeup artist or
director complaining about her scratches, and that being the reason for
declawing Kami, I think we can conclude that was indeed her reason for
declawing Kami. Her numerous references to scars while she was in the
business clinches it.



Date: 14 Mar 2005 06:14:36
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"

What you describe for Harriet is what led to Kami's declawing,
because it was similar except with claws, instead of teeth, and I
have deep permanent scarring to prove it. She could either be a
declawed cat or a shelter cat, it got that bad. Taking one's hand
(or whatever) away was hit or miss on whether she would launch and
bigger attack.

Anyway, glad to hear that I don't have the only cat with selective
hearing or hearing "no" loss. LOL!

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?



Date: 15 Mar 2005 18:53:43
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"

She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity. She
got to be too heavy for it.

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?


http://www.cat-forum.net/health/Do_cats_really_know_no_306356.html

Charlie Wilkes
February 24th 06, 12:23 PM
On 24 Feb 2006 01:56:35 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes
>> along with it:
>>
>> "While under the influence of Angel Dust this man decided to peel off
>> his own face using pieces of a broken mirror and feed the strips of
>> flesh to his pet dogs. He survived due to the large abounts of drugs
>> anesthetizing his system. The dogs were removed by police to the
>> animal shelter, where their stomachs were pumped, resulting in the
>> recovery of pieces of the man´s face, lips, and nose."
>>
>> Nice to know that picture is still out there to educate the public
>> about the dangers of drug abuse.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>LOL...I guess that's where Thomas Harris got the idea then. This
>reminds me of "Reefer Madness" from the 50's. I did some massive
>quantities of Dust in the 70's and never once cut of my face. In fact,
>I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;)
>-L.

It scared the **** out of me. One time I thought I was going to die
for sure. I only did it a couple of times.

I grew up in a cold part of the country, and I knew a girl who was
tripping on PCP and went outside in her shirtsleeves and froze to
death when it was -20 F. I also knew someone who burned his stomach
pretty severely by dropping a cigarette and not realizing it.

But I also know people who did a lot of dust and got away with it. I
think it was the novice users who were at the most risk of doing
something really crazy.

Charlie

Joe Canuck
February 24th 06, 02:31 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>> Phil P. wrote:
>>>
>>>> LMAO! What a crock of bull****!
>>> Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time. At this point it
>>> doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try
>>> to have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen
>>> and learn anything.
>> Why do you two insist one beating an issue that's a decade and a half
>> old?
>
> Because you're still *LYING* about it to this day. You said Kami was *3*
> when you had her declawed and you were no longer in the porno business.
> Explain how Kami was three years old when you had her declawed and she had
> her claws for *six years*- LIAR!
>
> You also said Kami was born in 1988 and that you got out of the porn
> business in 1993-- Now, if Kami had her claws for 6 years- as *you* said,
> (follow this close) that means Kami had her claws for *6 years* while you
> were *still* in the porno business.
>
> If you declawed Kami 15 years ago, and she had her claws for 6 years-- that
> would make her *21*- you lying moron! I'd bet you sure wish you finished
> high school math now, don't you? LOL!
>
> Here's *incontrovertible* proof you're a liar:
>
> Date: 15 Mar 2005 18:53:43
> From: Brandy?Alexandre
> Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"
>
>
> Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
>> message
>> news:[email protected] eranews...
>>> Lesley Madigan > wrote in
>>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>
>>>> or in
>>>> Redunzel's case slip and have to hang onto the curtains.
>>>>
>>> Velcro Kitty! That was one of Kami's favorite self amusements.
>>> She wouldn't do it by falling, just a running leap at the sliding
>>> glass door to see where she would stick. I'd know she was
>>> playing it when I heard the thud. Maybe that's why she's
>>> warped--brain damage from hitting the glass. Luckily she grew
>>> out of it, and it was time for the apartment to change the drapes
>>> anyway...
>>>
>> How did she do this with no front claws?
>>
>>
>>
>
> She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity. She
> got to be too heavy for it.
>

Given this and as someone in the accounting field I find it extremely
troubling that Brandy also claims to have a position auditing books.

I suspect she is just trolling again to raise a **** storm in here for
personal entertainment... so she doesn't take "it" out on Kami. Whatever
"it" may be... a chilling statement and thought. I'm sure that one is
also well preserved in the archives.

CatNipped
February 24th 06, 02:44 PM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> Where have I flamed you in this thread? I am trying to educate
>> you (and the general reader), Brandy.
>
> You're also not a teacher and how dare you presume to teach me
> anything. Arrogant jerk.
>

I assume, since you won't accept learning from anyone but a teacher, that
you haven't learned anything at all since you dropped out of high school lo
these many years ago??! That explains a lot.

>
>
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

Joe Canuck
February 24th 06, 02:52 PM
CatNipped wrote:
> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>>> Where have I flamed you in this thread? I am trying to educate
>>> you (and the general reader), Brandy.
>> You're also not a teacher and how dare you presume to teach me
>> anything. Arrogant jerk.
>>
>
> I assume, since you won't accept learning from anyone but a teacher, that
> you haven't learned anything at all since you dropped out of high school lo
> these many years ago??! That explains a lot.
>

As Kami anything about kama sutra... she be the expert! :-D


>>
>>
>> --
>> Margarita Salt
>>
>> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
>> entirely good... motives are often more important than
>> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt
>
>

CatNipped
February 24th 06, 02:53 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "D." > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>> > "D." > wrote in message
>> > ink.net...
>> > > In article >,
>> > > Margarita Salt > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > "The veterinary board in NJ is reviewing the Maxshouse site and
>> > > > potential the facility for violations."
>> > >
>> > > potential the facility? Hmmm.
>> >
>> >
>> > Yeah, isn't that funny?
>>
>> It struck me as odd because it's the same kind of typographical omission
>> she has been making lately -- e.g., punctuate for punctuation. I
>> wondered if it was a copy and paste from an e-mail from the veterinary
>> board.
>
> Actually, I think the veterinary board was laughing too hard at her to
> send
> her an email.
>
> What did she say?: "Hi, I'm a high school dropout/crack whore/has-been
> porno
> actor/animal abuser and I want to lodge a complaint against an animal
> rescue
> organization because the owner insulted me a cat newsgroup. He called me
> a
> high school dropout/crack whore/has-been porno actor/animal abuser." LOL!
>
> Meanwhile, my site traffic has increased 135% and adoptions are up 18%
> since
> she's been throwing her tantrum.
>
> Date Visits Hits
> 19 Feb 2006 1705 7830
> 20 Feb 2006 2241 11092
> 21 Feb 2006 2298 11385
> 22 Feb 2006 2146 10082
>
>
> She sure showed me, didn't she? LOL!

I guess there really is no such things as bad publicity! ;>


--

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/

Joe Canuck
February 24th 06, 02:53 PM
Joe Canuck wrote:
> CatNipped wrote:
>> "Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>>
>>>> Where have I flamed you in this thread? I am trying to educate
>>>> you (and the general reader), Brandy.
>>> You're also not a teacher and how dare you presume to teach me
>>> anything. Arrogant jerk.
>>>
>>
>> I assume, since you won't accept learning from anyone but a teacher,
>> that you haven't learned anything at all since you dropped out of high
>> school lo these many years ago??! That explains a lot.
>>
>
> As Kami anything about kama sutra... she be the expert! :-D
>

Hmm, well... Kami may have learned from observation but it would be best
to go directly to the source... Brandy. :-D


>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Margarita Salt
>>>
>>> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
>>> entirely good... motives are often more important than
>>> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt
>>
>>

cybercat
February 24th 06, 03:48 PM
"Joe Canuck" > wrote
> I suspect she is just trolling again to raise a **** storm in here for
> personal entertainment

Yep. :) Everyone needs a hobby, and, as Charlie pointed out, she's pretty
good at it. An unrepentant declawer, who better to get a rise out of the
silly, softhearted cat people. and there are always ASSHOLES like
Sherry-with-an-i who are looking to justify their own cruelty to egg her on.

What the hell, whatever gets 'em through the night. When I do something
wrong, I need to face it and take responsibility for it if I am going to be
able to look at my face in the mirror. [Daily powder and mascara, don't you
know. 8) ]

And there is no question in any sound mind that mutilation of any living
thing, when there are other options available for solving the "problem" of
scratching is wrong.

While many things are relative, there are absolute truths in life. Such as:
hacking bloody chunks out of living creatures because it is the most
expedient way to keep them from inconveniencing you is wrong. It's just the
wrong thing to do, Wilford.

PawsForThought
February 24th 06, 03:49 PM
-L. wrote:
I did some massive
> quantities of Dust in the 70's and never once cut of my face. In fact,
> I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;)

LMAO!

cybercat
February 24th 06, 04:01 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote

> It scared the **** out of me. One time I thought I was going to die
> for sure. I only did it a couple of times.
>

All I had to do was see other people get violent on it.
I never touched it. One of the best early educations for
some kinds of people is to be exposed to the negative
effects of something on others. I saw people tripping
(not so bad unless you really want to communicate with
them and you're not!) and slobbering on themselves from
Methaqualone, babbling under a cocaine load, etc. Later,
working sober around drunks (it's called bartending, hee!)
did wonders for any urges I may have had to drown my
sorrows.

But I am not anti-drug. I believe there is a basic urge to
change one's state of consciousness. I actually tried weed
and hash, but got paranoid. :) I did, as I have said before,
really like peyote done in small bits. (Not enough to make
me "throw up and see God." Just enough to make colors
more interesting and unexplained joy bubble up in the
breast. A great book from the 1990s, I think: "Drug
Control in a Free Society." I forget the author.

Margarita Salt
February 24th 06, 04:09 PM
Charlie Wilkes > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> It scared the **** out of me. One time I thought I was going to die
> for sure. I only did it a couple of times.
>
> I grew up in a cold part of the country, and I knew a girl who was
> tripping on PCP and went outside in her shirtsleeves and froze to
> death when it was -20 F. I also knew someone who burned his stomach
> pretty severely by dropping a cigarette and not realizing it.
>
> But I also know people who did a lot of dust and got away with it. I
> think it was the novice users who were at the most risk of doing
> something really crazy.
>
> Charlie

Yikes, I never would have done dust even in my most experimental days.
I did some coke in the early 80s, but just because my boyfriend did.
It meant nothing to me, unlike him and the vast lots of his
acquaintances. I saw well-established people lose everything for that
crap. I don't understand drug addiction.

--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

cybercat
February 24th 06, 04:14 PM
"D." > wrote >
> I'm not sure why Hodge was declawed -- if he scratched as well as bit,
> or if his biting started after -- no way to know as he was dumped when
> he was over a year old, already declawed and neutered.

Ugh.

>I have noticed he
> flexes and kneads his front paws quite a bit, once in a while almost
> obsessively; perhaps he's trying to get the stretchy feeling back.

My old girl did this, and also that crazy, frenzied pawing cats
sometimes do on smooth things? She did it on windows and
big glossy magazines, obsessive-compulsive style, as you say.

He
> tries to pick up things with his feet, like Pudge did, but can't. Toys
> flop out of control.

Yeah, man, that makes me want to cry. My girl too. Most nights
as I read in bed my Gracie goes crazy with her catnip toys, she
reaches under and flips them up, so they go flying and she can
then pretend to snag them in her claws as they try to "get away."
There is not much more beautiful and beautifully functional then
the way whole cats whole bodies work, to me. I know I'm a
freak about cats, but that's the way I feel.

>I also notice that, when he is in mindless
> aggressive mode -- rarely these days, thank goodness -- he never
> attempts to scratch, so he's perfectly aware that he can't. He will use
> his back legs if you're holding him (he nailed the veterinarian once
> when the assistant let go), and he spends a lot of time sharpening his
> back claws, which Pudge never did.

I know you have brought this up before, that Hodge was declawed,
but I forget sometimes. It sure makes sense that this may be why
or partly why he gets so vicious. My cat was amazingly destructive
before declawing, but really mean after, and nearly as destructive.
I adopted her as a pregnant stray, and her pregnancy seemed to
hurt her, she made little sounds when she went through normal
movements at times. The vet said the pregnancy was normal, she
was just young, a little small because she was not fully grown, so
the four babies hurt as they grew. I came home one night from work
and she had gotten into the pantry and ripped to shreds everything she
could--cereal boxes, pasta bags, cookbooks, and I don't mean she
took little pieces out, she demolished them. I attributed it to her
being in discomfort from the pregnancy. After she had her four
kittens I had her spayed, and then she started destroying books
and notebooks full of notes I needed for school. It was really
astounding, the damage she did, but still no excuse to take the
brutal, "convenient" way and have her declawed.

>
> His feet look very deformed, and his walk doesn't look right. Someone
> here suggested he might be in pain; I didn't think so because you can
> touch his feet at least for a second without getting bitten if he's in
> the mood, but on second thought it's really hard to tell, and he's not
> saying anything. I do know many amputees talk about pain that doesn't go
> away, so it's likely.
>

Well, I'm glad he's with you. Someone else might not understand that
a lot of his bad behavior is probably caused by the declawing and who
know what else they did to him before they abandoned him. Poor boy.
Every time he bites you he may be thinking of those d*ckheads.

LMR via CatKB.com
February 24th 06, 04:26 PM
>are safe from predators and wild life is safe from them. We constructed a
>cat walk accessible from inside the house, up and over the roof and into a
>bamboo grove - all enclosed. They are free to roam in this contained area
>day and night. result - happy and loving passive cats, well socialised,
>love visitors and strangely little children especially. Naturally they are
>Burmese!!!

That sounds really cool. I'm going to have to get my husband to do something
like this - so far, his only job in construction for the cats has been
scratch posts and he did such a good job on them. I didn't like the posts I
saw in the stores because most of them were too plush - cats like a tighter
rug that they can really get their nails into, which he used; and he made one
using sisal rope too. He comes in handy sometimes!


LMR

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

PawsForThought
February 24th 06, 05:04 PM
-L. wrote:
> "Kami's been pretty much the same. She just has a slightly bigger
> vetphobia. She had the surgical glue or whatever heal inside and they
> had to
> reopen the toes. She bites a little harder now and slips and falls
> more often.
> She too holds one paw up on occasion.

Ugh :(

> But she was attacking the human of the house and I have the scars to
> show for it.

I wonder just why this cat was attacking. Were you overstimulating
her? Did you try any training methods, or consult with a cat
behaviorist? I highly doubt it. She was probably just bored and
wanted to play but instead you had the ends of her toes amputated :(

PawsForThought
February 24th 06, 05:04 PM
-L. wrote:
> "Kami's been pretty much the same. She just has a slightly bigger
> vetphobia. She had the surgical glue or whatever heal inside and they
> had to
> reopen the toes. She bites a little harder now and slips and falls
> more often.
> She too holds one paw up on occasion.

Ugh :(

> But she was attacking the human of the house and I have the scars to
> show for it.

I wonder just why this cat was attacking. Were you overstimulating
her? Did you try any training methods, or consult with a cat
behaviorist? I highly doubt it. She was probably just bored and
wanted to play but instead you had the ends of her toes amputated :(

NMR
February 24th 06, 05:49 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>


Hold the phone are you telling me that I am not the only one that has caught
her in a lie. I thought it was just me.
Wow is there a anti scum bag anti animal abuser club to join. Do we need
to hand out award or a medal for those who catch her in the lies. How
about a wanted poster the list of charges can be seen in her own post.

I know kami deserves a medal for survival


BELOW IS REPOSTED ON PHIL'S REQUEST
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> LMAO! What a crock of bull****!
> >
> > Seriously, Phil, she is a total waste of time. At this point it
> > doesn't matter how much info you or I or anyone shows her, or try
> > to have intelligent discourse with her, she isn't going to listen
> > and learn anything.
>
> Why do you two insist one beating an issue that's a decade and a half
> old?

Because you're still *LYING* about it to this day. You said Kami was *3*
when you had her declawed and you were no longer in the porno business.
Explain how Kami was three years old when you had her declawed and she had
her claws for *six years*- LIAR!

You also said Kami was born in 1988 and that you got out of the porn
business in 1993-- Now, if Kami had her claws for 6 years- as *you* said,
(follow this close) that means Kami had her claws for *6 years* while you
were *still* in the porno business.

If you declawed Kami 15 years ago, and she had her claws for 6 years-- that
would make her *21*- you lying moron! I'd bet you sure wish you finished
high school math now, don't you? LOL!

Here's *incontrovertible* proof you're a liar:

Date: 15 Mar 2005 18:53:43
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"


Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

>
> "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
> message
> news:[email protected] eranews...
>> Lesley Madigan > wrote in
>> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>
>> > or in
>> > Redunzel's case slip and have to hang onto the curtains.
>> >
>>
>> Velcro Kitty! That was one of Kami's favorite self amusements.
>> She wouldn't do it by falling, just a running leap at the sliding
>> glass door to see where she would stick. I'd know she was
>> playing it when I heard the thud. Maybe that's why she's
>> warped--brain damage from hitting the glass. Luckily she grew
>> out of it, and it was time for the apartment to change the drapes
>> anyway...
>>
>
> How did she do this with no front claws?
>
>
>

She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity. She
got to be too heavy for it.

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?




Date: 15 Mar 2005 13:55:40
From: Mary
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"


"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
message
news:[email protected] eranews...
> Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > "Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in
> > message
> > news:[email protected] eranews...
> >> Lesley Madigan > wrote in
> >> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> >>
> >> > or in
> >> > Redunzel's case slip and have to hang onto the curtains.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Velcro Kitty! That was one of Kami's favorite self amusements.
> >> She wouldn't do it by falling, just a running leap at the sliding
> >> glass door to see where she would stick. I'd know she was
> >> playing it when I heard the thud. Maybe that's why she's
> >> warped--brain damage from hitting the glass. Luckily she grew
> >> out of it, and it was time for the apartment to change the drapes
> >> anyway...
> >>
> >
> > How did she do this with no front claws?
> >
> >
> >
>
> She had her claws for 6 years. Besides, this was kitten activity.
She
> got to be too heavy for it.
>
>
I'm sure you know that you were unbelievably cruel
to declaw a 6-year-old cat--or a cat of any age.
Still, I have to point it out.





Date: 15 Mar 2005 20:43:59
From: Brandy?Alexandre
Subject: Re: Do cats really know "no?"

Mary > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> I'm sure you know that you were unbelievably cruel
> to declaw a 6-year-old cat--or a cat of any age.
> Still, I have to point it out.

Blah, blah, blah. We've been over this here a bazillion times. Go to
google and leave it alone.

--
Brandy??Alexandre?
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?


http://www.cat-forum.net/health/Do_cats_really_know_no_306356.html



Lets see you try to sleaze out of this one!

(Somebody please repost this so the sleazy liar can't say she didn't see it)

-L.
February 24th 06, 05:54 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
>
> I wonder just why this cat was attacking. Were you overstimulating
> her?

Of course she was - read the remainder of my post.

> Did you try any training methods, or consult with a cat
> behaviorist? I highly doubt it.

Brandy has never posted anything about other methods she tried to train
Kami other than squirting her with a water bottle, which we all know is
one of the worst ways to train a fearful cat. Like I said before, she
ha snever even mentioned trimming the cat's nails.

-L.

NMR
February 24th 06, 06:43 PM
I hope she plonked me
I HOPE I HOPE
I HOPE I HOPE
I HOPE I HOPE
I HOPE I HOPE
I HOPE I HOPE

That is what I always wanted from an twisted used up animal abuser junkie


"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> PawsForThought > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>>
>> I wonder just why this cat was attacking. Were you overstimulating
>> her? Did you try any training methods, or consult with a cat
>> behaviorist? I highly doubt it. She was probably just bored and
>> wanted to play but instead you had the ends of her toes amputated :(
>>
>>
>>
>
> You've made up your mind and shown yourself to be hysterical. It's
> amazing how many people I've had to plonk in the last couple of days
> for their inability to be remotely civil (and in the case of NMR,
> reasonably intelligent).
>
> --
> Margarita Salt
>
> "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
> entirely good... motives are often more important than
> actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

Rescue
February 24th 06, 07:02 PM
NMR wrote:
> I hope she plonked me
> I HOPE I HOPE
> I HOPE I HOPE
> I HOPE I HOPE
> I HOPE I HOPE
> I HOPE I HOPE


taaaake it easy there pappy
you're gonna go blind

PawsForThought
February 24th 06, 08:44 PM
cybercat wrote:
> Her feet looked really deformed, it was a major hack job from what
> I have seen. They were like dust mops, no arch, it was awful. She
> did not cover her mess in the litter box but I honestly do not recall if
> she did when she had claws. She was declawed at 6 months old.

I've never seen a declawed cat whose feet didn't look deformed. Cats
are digitigrade, meaning they walk on the tips of their toes. All
declawed cats have the third phlanx of their toes amputated. So they
can no longer walk properly, with the natural gait they are born with.
Cats also use their claws for exercising their neck, shoulders and back
muscles. When they scratch on a scratching post, they dig their claws
in and pull back, thereby accomplishing that exercise. Declawed cats
cannot do this. I'm glad that you've learned from your mistake with
your cat. Unfortunately, there are some that deny declawing causes any
problems.

Lauren

-L.
February 24th 06, 10:49 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> Kami is not a fearful cat. That's a label you've applied to her in the
> last couple of days so you can go off on new tangents. What makes you
> think she's fearful? Never has been and I doubt at this stage never
> will be.

You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did you
even bother to read any of the links on redirected aggression?

-L.

-L.
February 24th 06, 11:41 PM
Margarita Salt wrote:
>
> Nope. Just because you waste time posting miles and miles of stuff you
> dig up doesn't mean I have to waste time reading.

In other words, you have no desire to learn anything about cat
behavior, to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. You
should be ashamed of yourself, and embarassed.


> You see, you're
> STILL talking about ancient history.

You can still learn from it.

>
> Tell how a cat is fearful when I'm just watching TV, minding my own
> busines, and Kami walks out of the bedroom, see me, and goes for the
> throat.

That's a learned behavior. She attacks aggressively because she's
conditioned to attack. You continually harassed her with your hands
and squirt bottles, and she eventually more or less flipped out and
started taking the offensive.


>A fraidy cat would stay in the bedroom all day and avoid me at
> every turn.

Not necessarily. A continually harassed animal eventually lashes out.
You stated over and over how you played with her with your hands above
and beyond the time when she was comfortable with your doing so.

> Conversely, she would come over and "be close" (not a lap
> cat), and, again, if she was fearful of something, she'd avoid me like
> the plague.

You are the only source of affection she has. Cats crave affection.
She afraid of you so she doesn't get too close. But she still seeks
affection because that's a cat's nature. She's torn.

>
> Until you have personally assessed my cat, don't apply labels to her.

It has nothing to do with "personaly assessing" a cat. Cats are
creatures of habit. Cat behavior is a science that isn't difficult to
understand.

> She has a personality that's all her own, which I describe as "my way
> or the highway."

You made her that way, Brandy. You bullied this cat until she
literally flipped out. Then you punished her by amputating her toes.


She has always been spoiled, and has always been
> twisted. And no matter what you say, you cannot say it's anything I
> did to her

Of course I can. What occurred is blatantly obvious to anyone who
knows *anything* about cat behavior. It's your own ignorance that
turned Kami into a basketcase. I just pray to God you never get
another cat once she does croak. Because quite frankly, you're too
stupid to own a cat.

-L.

CatNipped
February 25th 06, 12:32 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
>>
>> Nope. Just because you waste time posting miles and miles of stuff you
>> dig up doesn't mean I have to waste time reading.
>
> In other words, you have no desire to learn anything about cat
> behavior, to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. You
> should be ashamed of yourself, and embarassed.
>
>
>> You see, you're
>> STILL talking about ancient history.
>
> You can still learn from it.
>
>>
>> Tell how a cat is fearful when I'm just watching TV, minding my own
>> busines, and Kami walks out of the bedroom, see me, and goes for the
>> throat.
>
> That's a learned behavior. She attacks aggressively because she's
> conditioned to attack. You continually harassed her with your hands
> and squirt bottles, and she eventually more or less flipped out and
> started taking the offensive.
>
>
>>A fraidy cat would stay in the bedroom all day and avoid me at
>> every turn.
>
> Not necessarily. A continually harassed animal eventually lashes out.
> You stated over and over how you played with her with your hands above
> and beyond the time when she was comfortable with your doing so.
>
>> Conversely, she would come over and "be close" (not a lap
>> cat), and, again, if she was fearful of something, she'd avoid me like
>> the plague.
>
> You are the only source of affection she has. Cats crave affection.
> She afraid of you so she doesn't get too close. But she still seeks
> affection because that's a cat's nature. She's torn.

In human terms it would be the Stockholm Syndrome. Hostages tend to beg
affection from their captors over time.


--

Hugs,

CatNipped

See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/



>
>>
>> Until you have personally assessed my cat, don't apply labels to her.
>
> It has nothing to do with "personaly assessing" a cat. Cats are
> creatures of habit. Cat behavior is a science that isn't difficult to
> understand.
>
>> She has a personality that's all her own, which I describe as "my way
>> or the highway."
>
> You made her that way, Brandy. You bullied this cat until she
> literally flipped out. Then you punished her by amputating her toes.
>
>
> She has always been spoiled, and has always been
>> twisted. And no matter what you say, you cannot say it's anything I
>> did to her
>
> Of course I can. What occurred is blatantly obvious to anyone who
> knows *anything* about cat behavior. It's your own ignorance that
> turned Kami into a basketcase. I just pray to God you never get
> another cat once she does croak. Because quite frankly, you're too
> stupid to own a cat.
>
> -L.
>

cybercat
February 25th 06, 12:53 AM
"Sherri" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I wrote~~"> **** off bitch!
>
>
> cybercat wrote~~~~If you include a snippet of the post to which you are
> replying, we will know
> which bitch you are replying too.
> Asshole. :)
>
> I was talking to you cybercat :)
>

Well I am really glad we cleared that up. Asshole. :)

Sherri
February 25th 06, 01:12 AM
Not a problem bitch :))
cybercat wrote:
> "Sherri" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > I wrote~~"> **** off bitch!
> >
> >
> > cybercat wrote~~~~If you include a snippet of the post to which you are
> > replying, we will know
> > which bitch you are replying too.
> > Asshole. :)
> >
> > I was talking to you cybercat :)
> >
>
> Well I am really glad we cleared that up. Asshole. :)

cybercat
February 25th 06, 01:18 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
> > Kami is not a fearful cat. That's a label you've applied to her in the
> > last couple of days so you can go off on new tangents. What makes you
> > think she's fearful? Never has been and I doubt at this stage never
> > will be.
>
> You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
> fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did you
> even bother to read any of the links on redirected aggression?
>


God damn it, Lyn, don't suggest Brandy might not be too bright. You know
they don't let woman strip down and get photographed taking a load of
jizz in the face unless they have master's degrees. I myself had to forgo
my dream of being a porn star because I was too tired after getting my
BA to get an MA in BJs. :)

cybercat
February 25th 06, 01:20 AM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> > Her feet looked really deformed, it was a major hack job from what
> > I have seen. They were like dust mops, no arch, it was awful. She
> > did not cover her mess in the litter box but I honestly do not recall if
> > she did when she had claws. She was declawed at 6 months old.
>
> I've never seen a declawed cat whose feet didn't look deformed. Cats
> are digitigrade, meaning they walk on the tips of their toes. All
> declawed cats have the third phlanx of their toes amputated. So they
> can no longer walk properly, with the natural gait they are born with.
> Cats also use their claws for exercising their neck, shoulders and back
> muscles. When they scratch on a scratching post, they dig their claws
> in and pull back, thereby accomplishing that exercise. Declawed cats
> cannot do this. I'm glad that you've learned from your mistake with
> your cat. Unfortunately, there are some that deny declawing causes any
> problems.
>
Yep. It is the worst thing I have ever done in my life. I learned then that
it hurts a lot more to know that you have hurt someone you love than to know
that they have hurt you. If that makes sense. : /

-L.
February 25th 06, 02:24 AM
CatNipped wrote:
>
> In human terms it would be the Stockholm Syndrome. Hostages tend to beg
> affection from their captors over time.
>
>

Well, and it's like an abused child that still seeks affection and
approval from his parents. Kami doesn't have any choice.
-L.

-L.
February 25th 06, 02:27 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > In other words, you have no desire to learn anything about cat
> > behavior, to prevent the same thing from happening in the future.
> > You should be ashamed of yourself, and embarassed.
>
> You're full of ****. The more you make stuff up about people, the less
> use you are to anyone else.

So, are you now saying, Karleen, that you are willing to learn
something about cat behavior so that you can prevent the creation of
another Kami?

-L.

Phil P.
February 25th 06, 02:41 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > Margarita Salt wrote:
> >> Kami is not a fearful cat. That's a label you've applied to her
> >> in the last couple of days so you can go off on new tangents.
> >> What makes you think she's fearful? Never has been and I doubt
> >> at this stage never will be.
> >
> > You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
> > fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did
> > you even bother to read any of the links on redirected aggression?
> >
> > -L.
> >
> >
>
> Nope. Just because you waste time posting miles and miles of stuff you
> dig up doesn't mean I have to waste time reading. You see, you're
> STILL talking about ancient history.
>
> Tell how a cat is fearful when I'm just watching TV, minding my own
> busines, and Kami walks out of the bedroom, see me, and goes for the
> throat.

Because you're psychotic and she doesn't know what to expect from you- a
swat, kick or pat. Its called defensive aggression, moron.

Phil P.
February 25th 06, 02:43 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Margarita Salt wrote:
> >
> > Nope. Just because you waste time posting miles and miles of stuff you
> > dig up doesn't mean I have to waste time reading.
>
> In other words, you have no desire to learn anything about cat
> behavior, to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. You
> should be ashamed of yourself, and embarassed.
>
>
> > You see, you're
> > STILL talking about ancient history.
>
> You can still learn from it.
>
> >
> > Tell how a cat is fearful when I'm just watching TV, minding my own
> > busines, and Kami walks out of the bedroom, see me, and goes for the
> > throat.
>
> That's a learned behavior. She attacks aggressively because she's
> conditioned to attack. You continually harassed her with your hands
> and squirt bottles, and she eventually more or less flipped out and
> started taking the offensive.
>
>
> >A fraidy cat would stay in the bedroom all day and avoid me at
> > every turn.
>
> Not necessarily. A continually harassed animal eventually lashes out.
> You stated over and over how you played with her with your hands above
> and beyond the time when she was comfortable with your doing so.
>
> > Conversely, she would come over and "be close" (not a lap
> > cat), and, again, if she was fearful of something, she'd avoid me like
> > the plague.
>
> You are the only source of affection she has. Cats crave affection.
> She afraid of you so she doesn't get too close. But she still seeks
> affection because that's a cat's nature. She's torn.
>
> >
> > Until you have personally assessed my cat, don't apply labels to her.
>
> It has nothing to do with "personaly assessing" a cat. Cats are
> creatures of habit. Cat behavior is a science that isn't difficult to
> understand.
>
> > She has a personality that's all her own, which I describe as "my way
> > or the highway."
>
> You made her that way, Brandy. You bullied this cat until she
> literally flipped out. Then you punished her by amputating her toes.
>
>
> She has always been spoiled, and has always been
> > twisted. And no matter what you say, you cannot say it's anything I
> > did to her
>
> Of course I can. What occurred is blatantly obvious to anyone who
> knows *anything* about cat behavior. It's your own ignorance that
> turned Kami into a basketcase. I just pray to God you never get
> another cat once she does croak. Because quite frankly, you're too
> stupid to own a cat.


This has all been explained to her many times but she refuses to accept
responsibility nor feels any remorse for utterly ruining Kami's life. She
brutally traumatized Kami- both emotionally and physically her entire life
and then blames the poor cat for her emotional and behavioral problems.

Brandy is a proven pathological liar and a classic amoral sociopath. All
her 'cute' anecdotal cat stories are merely red herrings to draw attention
away from the fact that she's an animal abuser of the worst kind.

-L.
February 25th 06, 02:48 AM
Phil P. wrote:

> > Of course I can. What occurred is blatantly obvious to anyone who
> > knows *anything* about cat behavior. It's your own ignorance that
> > turned Kami into a basketcase. I just pray to God you never get
> > another cat once she does croak. Because quite frankly, you're too
> > stupid to own a cat.
>
>
> This has all been explained to her many times but she refuses to accept
> responsibility nor feels any remorse for utterly ruining Kami's life. She
> brutally traumatized Kami- both emotionally and physically her entire life
> and then blames the poor cat for her emotional and behavioral problems.
>
> Brandy is a proven pathological liar and a classic amoral sociopath. All
> her 'cute' anecdotal cat stories are merely red herrings to draw attention
> away from the fact that she's an animal abuser of the worst kind.

I know. She's just a waste of time. But hopefully someone else will
see their own behavior in what she posted and learn from it. That's
the only "good" we hope can be derived from this horrible story.

-L.

-L.
February 25th 06, 02:50 AM
Margarita Salt wrote:
>
> You must be some fun date.

Normal women don't use semen as moisturizer, dear.

-L.

Phil P.
February 25th 06, 02:51 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> -L. > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
> >
> > In other words, you have no desire to learn anything about cat
> > behavior, to prevent the same thing from happening in the future.
> > You should be ashamed of yourself, and embarassed.
>
> You're full of ****.


Actually, she's right on the money.


> The more you make stuff up about people,


What exactly did she make up? The truth?



the less
> use you are to anyone else.

...and you're all used up.

John Doe
February 25th 06, 02:52 AM
"-L." > wrote:

>
> You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
> fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did
> you even bother to read any of the links on redirected aggression?

One example of something maybe similar (probably not fearful) might
be like when the cat bites you and then licks you immediately
afterwards. I see that as the cat expressing displeasure at what
you're doing and at the same time showing it is friendly and/or
acknowledging it is subordinate. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting the
human behavior stimulus is acceptable, I'm just trying to understand
the cat's response.)

Have fun.

Margarita Salt
February 25th 06, 03:18 AM
John Doe > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> "-L." > wrote:
>
>>
>> You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
>> fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did
>> you even bother to read any of the links on redirected
aggression?
>
> One example of something maybe similar (probably not fearful)
might
> be like when the cat bites you and then licks you immediately
> afterwards. I see that as the cat expressing displeasure at what
> you're doing and at the same time showing it is friendly and/or
> acknowledging it is subordinate. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting
the
> human behavior stimulus is acceptable, I'm just trying to
understand
> the cat's response.)
>
> Have fun.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I just dunno. She got her name, Kamikaze, within the first week I
brough her home and she got her first cat tree. She would run up to
the top and growl when you started walking near it. I have no idea
what the guys did to her or her mother (except I know they blew pot
smoke in her mother's face a lot because a high cat was "funny"),
But I didn't see anything abusive, and her mom was very laid-back
and friendly.

I found Kami's pouncing funny, but tried not to encourage it. I'd
set her on the floor and say "no," but the next time I came by I was
dropped in on by a Kamikaze pilot. Hence the name.

At night she would sleep above my head on my pillow, and try to come
down and suck my earlobes, but in the light of day she was just
"different" from any cat I grew up with. I used all the vet-
recommended deterrents--coins in a can, spray bottle, cayenne (when
she was taking apart the carpet), but she was going to do what she
wanted to do and if you tried to stop her look out. And she didn't
for get a thing.

She attacked the cable guy 30 minutes after he stepped on her tail.
She waited and plotted that attack, and excutued it just when he was
trying to "get away" (packing up his stuff). She attacked the FedEx
guy once, too, while I was simply at the door signing for a package
and I thought she was sleeping. Of course I got the brunt of it
since I lived there. She was beautiful, and funny, and smart, but
she was PSYCHO! I wanted to keep her more than anything, but we
could not live in the same house with those claws! So the deed was
done, and under the same circumstances I'd do it again.

There is the story, plain and simple. No twisting to say I did this
or that. No flaming for the sake of trying to make an argument look
more credible. Just sane, mature, articulation of life with Kami.
I don't doubt for one second that had I given her away she wouldn't
have ended up on the street, because too many people aren't raised
with the pet ethics I was raised with--treat them as well as you
expect to be treated, and they are not disposable. You take care of
them for the rest of their lives.

I'm doing that. It's costly, but luckily I have the funds and the
income to support it.

--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

Margarita Salt
February 25th 06, 03:36 AM
Margarita Salt > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> John Doe > wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>> "-L." > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You just don't *get it* do you? The behaviors you decribed are
>>> fear-based reactions. She bites and scratches out of fear. Did
>>> you even bother to read any of the links on redirected
> aggression?
>>
>> One example of something maybe similar (probably not fearful)
> might
>> be like when the cat bites you and then licks you immediately
>> afterwards. I see that as the cat expressing displeasure at what
>> you're doing and at the same time showing it is friendly and/or
>> acknowledging it is subordinate. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting
> the
>> human behavior stimulus is acceptable, I'm just trying to
> understand
>> the cat's response.)
>>
>> Have fun.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> I just dunno. She got her name, Kamikaze, within the first week I
> brough her home and she got her first cat tree. She would run up
to
> the top and growl when you started walking near it. I have no
idea
> what the guys did to her or her mother (except I know they blew
pot
> smoke in her mother's face a lot because a high cat was "funny"),
> But I didn't see anything abusive, and her mom was very laid-back
> and friendly.
>
> I found Kami's pouncing funny, but tried not to encourage it. I'd
> set her on the floor and say "no," but the next time I came by I
was
> dropped in on by a Kamikaze pilot. Hence the name.
>
> At night she would sleep above my head on my pillow, and try to
come
> down and suck my earlobes, but in the light of day she was just
> "different" from any cat I grew up with. I used all the vet-
> recommended deterrents--coins in a can, spray bottle, cayenne
(when
> she was taking apart the carpet), but she was going to do what she
> wanted to do and if you tried to stop her look out. And she
didn't
> for get a thing.
>
> She attacked the cable guy 30 minutes after he stepped on her
tail.
> She waited and plotted that attack, and excutued it just when he
was
> trying to "get away" (packing up his stuff). She attacked the
FedEx
> guy once, too, while I was simply at the door signing for a
package
> and I thought she was sleeping. Of course I got the brunt of it
> since I lived there. She was beautiful, and funny, and smart, but
> she was PSYCHO! I wanted to keep her more than anything, but we
> could not live in the same house with those claws! So the deed
was
> done, and under the same circumstances I'd do it again.
>
> There is the story, plain and simple. No twisting to say I did
this
> or that. No flaming for the sake of trying to make an argument
look
> more credible. Just sane, mature, articulation of life with Kami.
> I don't doubt for one second that had I given her away she
wouldn't
> have ended up on the street, because too many people aren't raised
> with the pet ethics I was raised with--treat them as well as you
> expect to be treated, and they are not disposable. You take care
of
> them for the rest of their lives.
>
> I'm doing that. It's costly, but luckily I have the funds and the
> income to support it.
>

(I can't wait to see how they twist this one up)

--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

NMR
February 25th 06, 05:31 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> CatNipped wrote:
>>
>> In human terms it would be the Stockholm Syndrome. Hostages tend to beg
>> affection from their captors over time.
>>
>>
>
> Well, and it's like an abused child that still seeks affection and
> approval from his parents. Kami doesn't have any choice.
> -L.
>
Like I said kami deserve a medal for survival

NMR
February 25th 06, 05:33 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
>>
>> God damn it, Lyn, don't suggest Brandy might not be too bright. You know
>> they don't let woman strip down and get photographed taking a load of
>> jizz in the face unless they have master's degrees. I myself had to forgo
>> my dream of being a porn star because I was too tired after getting my
>> BA to get an MA in BJs. :)
>
> Well, yes, I guess I should consider the source. Afterall she claims
> she *likes* a face full of jizz. Gotta be a screw loose there.
>
> -L.
>

Stop it Lyn you are going to make me call 911 this is better than god
warrior oh my side are hurting

ROFLMAO

NMR
February 25th 06, 05:34 AM
"Margarita Salt" > wrote in message
...
> Rescue > wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>
>>
>> Margarita Salt wrote:
>>
>>> (I can't wait to see how they twist this one up)
>>
>> wha huh who's twisting one up
>> where
>>
>><eyes getting wider>
>>
>> what
>>
>>
>
> Down boy.
>
first time you every said that to a man I bet

Charlie Wilkes
February 25th 06, 05:59 AM
On 24 Feb 2006 08:59:34 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
wrote:
>This is an excellent point. I hate declawing and think it is horrible,
>> but I don't see much point in attacking people who have already had it
>> done. It can't be undone, and very few people really listen when they
>> are being attacked.
>
>I have found that educating people with the facts can be successful.
>But, the person has to be open to education. Sometimes a little
>rougher approach is necessary for people who are very pro-declaw. I've

The rough approach works if you are a police detective grilling a
suspect who is in custody. In most other situations, people are free
to write you off as a ranting buffoon.

BUT, the world is full of ranting buffoons, and they generally welcome
new recruits with open arms. That is why I think you would be a good
candidate for some political cause, like abortion or gun control.
Pick a side and grab a megaphone and let it all hang out.

Charlie

>used both methods over the years, and have found both to be successful,
>although I do prefer the straightforward educational approach.
>Unfortunately, there are some people that no matter what, would rather
>live in denial of what declawing really is. It's hard for a person to
>admit to themselves that they had the ends of their cat's toes
>amputated, what they did to their cat in terms of declawing caused
>their animal pain, and that it can cause side effects.

Charlie Wilkes
February 25th 06, 06:02 AM
On 24 Feb 2006 10:05:22 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>
>> It scared the **** out of me. One time I thought I was going to die
>> for sure. I only did it a couple of times.
>
>Scared the **** out of me too, and that's why I quit doing it. It was
>the only time I had real out of body experiences - and that was enough
>to make me quit.
>
>>
>> I grew up in a cold part of the country, and I knew a girl who was
>> tripping on PCP and went outside in her shirtsleeves and froze to
>> death when it was -20 F. I also knew someone who burned his stomach
>> pretty severely by dropping a cigarette and not realizing it.
>>
>> But I also know people who did a lot of dust and got away with it. I
>> think it was the novice users who were at the most risk of doing
>> something really crazy.
>>
>
>I never understood people who smoked it - when I smoked it it just made
>me puke. When I snorted it, it was a crazy happy high with some of the
>most incredible physical hallucinations I've ever experienced. Didn't
>like it that much - but it was cheap and available, and well, back
>then, that's what we did for fun.
>
>My hallucinogenic of choice was blotter acid, or microdots (when we
>could get them). I'm sure you encountered a pane or two in your
>day...but that was also a drug that scared me into stopping - because I
>liked it far too much. I started to understand why people dropped out
>of society and dropped acid for a living. That scared me.

Yeah, I did a lot of acid and speed. I ended up in a mental ward,
having electroshock treatments because I was misdiagnosed as
schizophrenic. I've had quite a life, actually.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 25th 06, 06:27 AM
Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
being a liar, but in these posts she is candid about the problems that
followed her declawing of Kami. It would be easy for her to claim
that the declawing caused no problems at all. Who can prove
otherwise?

She's also equivocal about having done it in the first place. And
this is one cat that she had declawed a long time ago... not exactly a
way of life, ferchrissakes.

I've been following this group for about a year, I guess. People are
quick to point the finger and accuse someone else of abusing their
cat. But you know what? I don't think there is one, single person
active in this group who mistreats cats, not intentionally anyway. At
worst there may be instances of poor judgement.

Charlie



On 24 Feb 2006 00:44:10 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Margarita Salt wrote:
>> **** you! Stop being such a pinhead and believing everything Phil
>> says. He has NEVER provide proof of these things he accuses me
>
>Well, despite your x-n-a addiction, what happened with your cat *is*
>archived.
>
>Apparently the cat was "too wild" for you and bit and scratched you.
>You posted that the cat had complications from the surgery and that
>you were sorry you did it. Surprise, surprise - you trained the cat to
>bite, declawed it because it scratched and bit, and after declawing,
>it started biting more...
>
>Here are your "excuses", (from your own posts)...
>
>First:
>
>Message-ID: >
>
>"I just came to this group and I'm sure there are bunch of messages on
>this subject but I can't find the all. But let me tell you about my
>(Kami's) declawing.
>
>Everyone has a different reason for declawing their cat. I think
>declawing "just because it's an indoor cat" is wrong. Declawing
>because your cat is wrecking your furniture is wrong. But my cat was
>wrecking
>ME. She has a Jekyll/Hyde personality and if you're not petting
>properly
>or quickly enough BAM! If you scoot the bed hog over too many times
>BAM!
>She will just dive into you and give you hell for it.
>
>But I love her dearly. She has an amazing personality. All her life,
>whenever I pass her by I reach out and touch her. She has come to
>equate this soft pat with affection and returns it. She'll me on the
>couch
>behind me and just reach out and put her paw on my shoulder. She'll
>pat me in the head in the morning when she thinks I'm awake and poke me
>in
>the eyes (lightly) when I'm faking sleep. All this touching with
>claws,
>and the other stuff, made co-existence WITH claws impossible.
>
>But now she's learned to bite real good. She had every complication
>possible with the operation and if I ever had to give her up there
>wouldn't be hardly anybody that would want to keep her indoors because
>she is an all out shedding machine.
>
>Declawing is a personal choice, we make decisions for our children and
>we make decision for our animals. Although in a way I regret the
>decision I made for Kami we love each other and to say that I should
>have a
>different kind of pet is simply out of the question."
>
>**********
>Then this gem. Note the complications from the surgery, the fact that
>the cat is clearly maimed ("slips and falls") and apparently suffers
>pain from the declawing (evidenced by the "holding up" of the paw -
>known in the veterinary world as failure to bear weight)...
>
>Message-ID: >
>
>"Kami's been pretty much the same. She just has a slightly bigger
>vetphobia. She had the surgical glue or whatever heal inside and they
>had to
>reopen the toes. She bites a little harder now and slips and falls
>more often.
>She too holds one paw up on occasion.
>
>But she was attacking the human of the house and I have the scars to
>show for it. She's more cuddly than before because I'm not always
>shoving her
>away for digging into me. Now she'll lay on my chest and rest her paws
>across
>my face (and smother me) and I don't even flinch.
>
>The biggest problem I've found is visiting my sister's cat and
>forgetting about the claws.... :)"
>
>******
>
>And this gem:
>Message-ID: >
>
>"Kami has been caught looking me over for an exposed bit of skin to
>bite. She would rather not waste her time trying to get me through my
>clothes.
>
>I was told the problem starts when they're kittens and you let them
>bite and play with your bare hands. Of course it doesn't hurt at that
>age, but
>that's where they learn that it's okay to bite people. I have had no
>luck
>training my mistakes out of my cat. I just dress as much as I can and
>hide
>under my covers when she's in "a mood".
>
>I regret but it was necessary. We all make decisions for our kids and
>animals. I always like to ask the militant no-declawers if their sons
>are circumsized (sp). ;)"
>
>*****
>
>And finally:
>Message-ID: >
>
>"I haven't noticed any more or less, really, but I do know that it's
>easier to get away when she can't hold on. ;) She is "oral" oriented
>is is an unrepentant chewer. That part of it means she bites is no
>surprise. She's been launching Kamikaze flying attacks since the day
>I brought her home. The cable guy stepped on her tail once and she
>didn't hide from him the rest of the time like most cats might. She
>sat on the stairs and plotted revenge, carefully looking him up and
>down for the best attack point, the end of her tail softly twitching
>back and forth. She waited until he was done, packed his stuff, and
>headed for the door then she just flew at his ankles.
>
>The vet said spaying should calm her, but it didn't. Spray bottles
>sat conveniently all around the house, but she would just hunch up and
>take the punishment and go right back to what she was doing (like some
>2-
>year old kids I know). The vet recommended drugging her, but I liked
>her spunk and playfulness when she wasn't trying to shred someone. I
>don't want just a fluffy couch ornament--she's my pal. I simply do
>not think that declawing her under the circumstances was wrong
>regardless
>of what these ignorant zealots declare they know about me and my
>life."
>***************
>
>After reading all of your posts, one has to wonder if you ever even
>*tried* trimming the Kami's nails.
>
>You need serious lessons in cat behavior, and truly, should
>never have aquired a cat because you apparently know so little about
>them.
>
>>From a clinical standpoint, we have evidence of overstimulation and
>play aggression by the owner (constant touching/hand playing/allowing
>biting), defensive
>behavior by the cat (scratching and biting), inappropriate punishment
>(squirt bottle overuse/abuse), and poor veterinary counseling
>(apparently no good behavior modification counseling/referral for drug
>therapy to treat the behavior(!) when, in fact, the owner was
>*clearly* the problem). Not to mention the botched declaw surgery and
>poor post-operative care by a half-assed vet.
>
>My guess would be that the same vet that was so
>inept at identifying the cause of the behavior is the same one who
>used surgical glue to seal the wounds, despite the fact that surgical
>glue has been indicated in the formation of crystalline granulomas in
>delcawed cats (What you refer to as "she had the surgical glue or
>whatever heal inside".)
>
>**********
>Here is another exchange where two other posters basically told you
>exactly what I have told you here.
>
>You describe what Kami was doing, Megan responded,
>you have a volitile reaction (as is your habit), and then someone
>agrees with Megan and provides plenty of links to back her up. As I
>said before, Kami didn't have a problem that couldn't have been easily
>corrected if you had simply learned to pay attention to the signals she
>was sending you:
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/msg/5049a9c6566b80b1
>
>
> Path:
>archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshu b2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md. home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>From: "carbook" >
>Newsgroups: alt.gossip.celebrities
>References: >
>
>
>Subject: Re: O/T - Cat Scratching solutions?
>Lines: 64
>X-Priority: 3
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>
>
>"Brandy Alexandre®" > wrote in message
. 22...
>> After serious umbilicus contemplation, wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > Brandy wrote:
>> >
>> >>She is very sweet 95% of the time and
>> >>very tactile, which made the claw thing
>> >>rather difficult. And that other 5% made
>> >>the claw thing torturous. We could be
>> >>laying in bed and she all laid out loving
>> >>the petting, resting her head on my hand, and she would lightly lay
>> >>her teeth in skin for some unknown reason.
>> >>You next move at this point will make all
>> >>the difference between nothing more than a drool kiss and all out
>> >>war.
>> >
>> > This type of behavior has been called "Don't pet me anymore"
>> > aggression, and is easily avoided by learning to read the cats body
>> > language and stopping physical contact before the cat gets past the
>> > point of no return. Declawing a cat that exhibits this behavior is
>> > not necessary.
>> >
>> > Megan
>> >
>>
>> Oh, now you're suddenly and behavior expert and know exactly what goes
>> on in my home for what reason from the breif explanation of a long and
>> complex problem. I see. You have proven yourself quite a close-minded
>> zealot and now you're just insane.
>>
>> *PLONK*
>>
>> --
>> Brandy Alexandre
>> http://kamikaze.org (Adults Only)
>
>Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean she isn't right. It
>*is*
>a recognized cat trait. Yours certainly isn't the only cat that has
>acted
>that way, nor will it be the last. There are vets and other's who have
>cataloged and researched cat behaviors, and a quick search of the web
>would
>have brought this information up.
>
>You can check...
>http://64.87.126.141/behavior/cathumag.htm
>http://www.sthuberts.org/petpouri/articles/dont.htm
>http://pets.msn.com/cats/care/article4.asp
>http://www.catcaresociety.org/aggression.htm
>http://www.paws.org/work/factsheet/catfactsheets/cataggression2.html
>http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/e-vets/catbehavior/cataggression2.html
>just for a start.
>
>And she's right, declawing doesn't stop this type of behavior, as the
>cat
>will just go to bitting in the future instead of clawing when they've
>reached their limit. Much easier to learn to read the cat's body
>language
>and avoid the moment all together.
>
>Carbook"
>
>*****
>Despite all of this evidence, you still fail to take responsibility for
>creating a situation that could have been prevented, and then resorting
>to declawing to "solve" the "problem." What you discovered is that Kami
>became more fearful and aggressive, which is the exact outcome Megan,
>or Phil, or I, or anyone who works in animal rescue could have
>predicted.
>
>In the future, I can only hope that someday you will read what is
>written here and take it to heart. Learn from your mistake and never
>again declaw a cat, or if you are inclined to declaw again, refrain
>from acquiring another cat.
>
>This cat was doomed from day one, and this is *exactly* why I am very,
>very careful about to whom I rehome cats. Some fates are worse than
>humane euthanasia.
>
>But posts like yours serve a purpose. They are very useful in teaching
>the public about the problems associated with declaw surgery, and they
>are excellent ammunition in the fight to get this barbaric practice
>banned. For this, we can only thank you.
>
>Sadly, one cannot help but pity Kami for her years of suffering.
>
>-L.
>
>***keywords Brandy Alexandre Kami declaw aggression bite biting claw
>nail

-L.
February 25th 06, 07:10 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
> the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
> being a liar,

They have called her a liar because her story has obviously changed as
it suits her. Read Phil's posts. It's also impossible to declaw a cat
and seal the wounds with surgical glue and not have profuse bleeding.
That I *know* she is lying about. I don't really care that she lies,
though. What bothers me is that she doesn't understand that it was she
who created the situation with Kami to begin with, and still says she
doesn't know whether or not she'd declaw another cat. THAT bothers me
the most. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would choose to declaw
when it simply isn't necessary.


> but in these posts she is candid about the problems that
> followed her declawing of Kami. It would be easy for her to claim
> that the declawing caused no problems at all. Who can prove
> otherwise?

These posts were made long before Karleen knew she would have to defend
herself.

>
> She's also equivocal about having done it in the first place. And
> this is one cat that she had declawed a long time ago... not exactly a
> way of life, ferchrissakes.

She said she didn't know if she'd do it in the future. That's just
sick, Charlie, in light of all the data there is available showing
declawing is cruel and unnecessary.

>
> I've been following this group for about a year, I guess. People are
> quick to point the finger and accuse someone else of abusing their
> cat. But you know what? I don't think there is one, single person
> active in this group who mistreats cats, not intentionally anyway. At
> worst there may be instances of poor judgement.

I have no doubt that Karleen loves Kami. No doubt what so ever. I
also have no doubt that she created Kami's behavioral problems. It's
her failure to learn from her mistakes - not even that - her lack of
desire to learn from her mistakes that I loathe.

I can't speak for the others..

Actually I think I have been pretty civil to her until she attacked me
about my former job. After that, hey - it's a free-for-all, AFAIC.

-L.

Charlie Wilkes
February 25th 06, 02:24 PM
On 24 Feb 2006 23:10:46 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
>> the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
>> being a liar,
>
>They have called her a liar because her story has obviously changed as
>it suits her. Read Phil's posts. It's also impossible to declaw a cat
>and seal the wounds with surgical glue and not have profuse bleeding.
>That I *know* she is lying about. I don't really care that she lies,
>though. What bothers me is that she doesn't understand that it was she
>who created the situation with Kami to begin with, and still says she
>doesn't know whether or not she'd declaw another cat. THAT bothers me
>the most. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would choose to declaw
>when it simply isn't necessary.
>
>
>> but in these posts she is candid about the problems that
>> followed her declawing of Kami. It would be easy for her to claim
>> that the declawing caused no problems at all. Who can prove
>> otherwise?
>
>These posts were made long before Karleen knew she would have to defend
>herself.
>
>>
>> She's also equivocal about having done it in the first place. And
>> this is one cat that she had declawed a long time ago... not exactly a
>> way of life, ferchrissakes.
>
>She said she didn't know if she'd do it in the future. That's just
>sick, Charlie, in light of all the data there is available showing
>declawing is cruel and unnecessary.

I suspect she has learned a lot since 1991, or whenever this took
place.
>
>>
>> I've been following this group for about a year, I guess. People are
>> quick to point the finger and accuse someone else of abusing their
>> cat. But you know what? I don't think there is one, single person
>> active in this group who mistreats cats, not intentionally anyway. At
>> worst there may be instances of poor judgement.
>
>I have no doubt that Karleen loves Kami. No doubt what so ever. I
>also have no doubt that she created Kami's behavioral problems. It's

I have grave doubts on that score, Lyn. What would she have done to
cause the behavioral issues she describes, assuming she was not
intentionally cruel to the animal? My observation has been that
feline temperaments vary widely and unpredictably.

>her failure to learn from her mistakes - not even that - her lack of
>desire to learn from her mistakes that I loathe.
>
>I can't speak for the others..
>
>Actually I think I have been pretty civil to her until she attacked me
>about my former job. After that, hey - it's a free-for-all, AFAIC.

Yeah, I wondered why she did that. But here you are tacitly
acknowledging that the dispute is more personal than substantial. I
think it is that way with most of the bickering in this group.

Charlie

PawsForThought
February 25th 06, 02:30 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> BUT, the world is full of ranting buffoons, and they generally welcome
> new recruits with open arms. That is why I think you would be a good
> candidate for some political cause, like abortion or gun control.
> Pick a side and grab a megaphone and let it all hang out.

Unfortunately, you are just clueless about declawing, Charlie. I hope
you would at least visit some of the links that have been posted here
and be open to educating yourself.

PawsForThought
February 25th 06, 02:32 PM
Because wrote:
> "-L." > wrote...
>
> > Of course I can. What occurred is blatantly obvious to anyone who
> > knows *anything* about cat behavior. It's your own ignorance that
> > turned Kami into a basketcase. I just pray to God you never get
> > another cat once she does croak. Because quite frankly, you're too
> > stupid to own a cat.
>
> You're too vicious to own a cat. Anyone that treats humans as horribly as
> you do should not be trusted around animals.

Whatever you say, Brandy.

Rhonda
February 25th 06, 04:29 PM
The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I don't
hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago. I would guess that
after reading everything Brandy would not do it to a cat again, but
she's not going to admit it here after all of the words back and forth.
Why would she?

I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed and
trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as a
profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why should anyone
care in general? Why is she routinely trashed for it, is it because the
rest of us are holier-than-thou? The double-standards in this society
drive me crazy. If some guy came on here from her former profession,
he'd probably be called a stud, but people feel free to call Brandy
every name in the book. Some people take special glee in flinging the
names at her, trashing her because of a friggin' job, I suppose to make
themselves feel superior.

Maybe I should go over to the fluffy group for awhile...

Rhonda

February 25th 06, 05:04 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
> I suspect she has learned a lot since 1991, or whenever this took
> place.

Obviously not if she now says she doesn;'t know whether or not she
would declaw a cat again. If you did an elective procedure and had
"every complication known" would *you* ever do it again? C'mon Charlie
- be real.

<snip>

> >I have no doubt that Karleen loves Kami. No doubt what so ever. I
> >also have no doubt that she created Kami's behavioral problems. It's
>
> I have grave doubts on that score, Lyn. What would she have done to
> cause the behavioral issues she describes, assuming she was not
> intentionally cruel to the animal?

have you read anything that ws posted? her behaviors very clearly
created the cat.

> My observation has been that
> feline temperaments vary widely and unpredictably.

And they respond predictablty to postivie interactions.

>
> >her failure to learn from her mistakes - not even that - her lack of
> >desire to learn from her mistakes that I loathe.
> >
> >I can't speak for the others..
> >
> >Actually I think I have been pretty civil to her until she attacked me
> >about my former job. After that, hey - it's a free-for-all, AFAIC.
>
> Yeah, I wondered why she did that. But here you are tacitly
> acknowledging that the dispute is more personal than substantial.

Absolutley not. I only responded in kind when she made personal
attacks based on my former occupation. If she wants to discusss former
occupations, and why we no longer do them, let's discuss it. She just
conveniently forgot about hers when she brought it up, evidently.

Remember Charlie, I was one of the only ones who was supporting her
when Kami was so sick. I have no inherent reason to hate her.

> I
> think it is that way with most of the bickering in this group.

Perhaps but not in this case, on my part, at least.

-L.

February 25th 06, 05:11 PM
Rhonda wrote:
> The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I don't
> hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago.

I don't hate Karleen.

> I would guess that
> after reading everything Brandy would not do it to a cat again, but
> she's not going to admit it here after all of the words back and forth.
> Why would she?

She already said she doesn't know if she would do it again or not.
She'd have a hell of a lot more respect if she would say she learned
from her mistakes and would never choose to declaw again.


>
> I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed and
> trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as a
> profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why should anyone
> care in general? Why is she routinely trashed for it, is it because the
> rest of us are holier-than-thou?

I only responded in kind when she made personal attacks based on my
former occupation. If she wants to discusss former occupations, and
why we no longer do them, let's discuss it. She just conveniently
forgot about hers - and her lack of success in doing it - when she
brought it up, evidently. Prior to that I made no mention what-so-ever
of Karleen's former occupation.


>The double-standards in this society
> drive me crazy. If some guy came on here from her former profession,
> he'd probably be called a stud, but people feel free to call Brandy
> every name in the book. Some people take special glee in flinging the
> names at her, trashing her because of a friggin' job, I suppose to make
> themselves feel superior.

LOL...c'mon Rhonda. Tell me you respect porn starts of any sex.
That's a joke. I know one of the most successful male porn stars in
the business. The guy is a major slimeball, and not just because he's
a porn star. It's a dirty industry and I don't mean because of the
sex.

-L.

Joe Canuck
February 25th 06, 05:18 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
> the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
> being a liar, but in these posts she is candid about the problems that
> followed her declawing of Kami. It would be easy for her to claim
> that the declawing caused no problems at all. Who can prove
> otherwise?
>
> She's also equivocal about having done it in the first place. And
> this is one cat that she had declawed a long time ago... not exactly a
> way of life, ferchrissakes.
>
> I've been following this group for about a year, I guess. People are
> quick to point the finger and accuse someone else of abusing their
> cat. But you know what? I don't think there is one, single person
> active in this group who mistreats cats, not intentionally anyway. At
> worst there may be instances of poor judgement.
>
> Charlie

Then in terms of this group I suppose we could call you a newbie, but
that would be labeling and serve no purpose.

Keep an eye on Brandy's posts, over the long term you may spot something
some of the others have... no big deal if you don't see it. Personally,
I'm tired of her nonsense and commentary designed to stir things up.

As for declawing not being a way of life, I do remember seeing a comment
from her sometime ago informing us all she would do the declaw procedure
over again. People are dynamic and subject to change, perhaps she no
longer feels that way but given how she appears to have dug her heels in
on the issue I don't expect a public admission that she has changed her
position on that.



>
>
>
> On 24 Feb 2006 00:44:10 -0800, "-L." > wrote:
>
>> Margarita Salt wrote:
>>> **** you! Stop being such a pinhead and believing everything Phil
>>> says. He has NEVER provide proof of these things he accuses me
>> Well, despite your x-n-a addiction, what happened with your cat *is*
>> archived.
>>
>> Apparently the cat was "too wild" for you and bit and scratched you.
>> You posted that the cat had complications from the surgery and that
>> you were sorry you did it. Surprise, surprise - you trained the cat to
>> bite, declawed it because it scratched and bit, and after declawing,
>> it started biting more...
>>
>> Here are your "excuses", (from your own posts)...
>>
>> First:
>>
>> Message-ID: >
>>
>> "I just came to this group and I'm sure there are bunch of messages on
>> this subject but I can't find the all. But let me tell you about my
>> (Kami's) declawing.
>>
>> Everyone has a different reason for declawing their cat. I think
>> declawing "just because it's an indoor cat" is wrong. Declawing
>> because your cat is wrecking your furniture is wrong. But my cat was
>> wrecking
>> ME. She has a Jekyll/Hyde personality and if you're not petting
>> properly
>> or quickly enough BAM! If you scoot the bed hog over too many times
>> BAM!
>> She will just dive into you and give you hell for it.
>>
>> But I love her dearly. She has an amazing personality. All her life,
>> whenever I pass her by I reach out and touch her. She has come to
>> equate this soft pat with affection and returns it. She'll me on the
>> couch
>> behind me and just reach out and put her paw on my shoulder. She'll
>> pat me in the head in the morning when she thinks I'm awake and poke me
>> in
>> the eyes (lightly) when I'm faking sleep. All this touching with
>> claws,
>> and the other stuff, made co-existence WITH claws impossible.
>>
>> But now she's learned to bite real good. She had every complication
>> possible with the operation and if I ever had to give her up there
>> wouldn't be hardly anybody that would want to keep her indoors because
>> she is an all out shedding machine.
>>
>> Declawing is a personal choice, we make decisions for our children and
>> we make decision for our animals. Although in a way I regret the
>> decision I made for Kami we love each other and to say that I should
>> have a
>> different kind of pet is simply out of the question."
>>
>> **********
>> Then this gem. Note the complications from the surgery, the fact that
>> the cat is clearly maimed ("slips and falls") and apparently suffers
>> pain from the declawing (evidenced by the "holding up" of the paw -
>> known in the veterinary world as failure to bear weight)...
>>
>> Message-ID: >
>>
>> "Kami's been pretty much the same. She just has a slightly bigger
>> vetphobia. She had the surgical glue or whatever heal inside and they
>> had to
>> reopen the toes. She bites a little harder now and slips and falls
>> more often.
>> She too holds one paw up on occasion.
>>
>> But she was attacking the human of the house and I have the scars to
>> show for it. She's more cuddly than before because I'm not always
>> shoving her
>> away for digging into me. Now she'll lay on my chest and rest her paws
>> across
>> my face (and smother me) and I don't even flinch.
>>
>> The biggest problem I've found is visiting my sister's cat and
>> forgetting about the claws.... :)"
>>
>> ******
>>
>> And this gem:
>> Message-ID: >
>>
>> "Kami has been caught looking me over for an exposed bit of skin to
>> bite. She would rather not waste her time trying to get me through my
>> clothes.
>>
>> I was told the problem starts when they're kittens and you let them
>> bite and play with your bare hands. Of course it doesn't hurt at that
>> age, but
>> that's where they learn that it's okay to bite people. I have had no
>> luck
>> training my mistakes out of my cat. I just dress as much as I can and
>> hide
>> under my covers when she's in "a mood".
>>
>> I regret but it was necessary. We all make decisions for our kids and
>> animals. I always like to ask the militant no-declawers if their sons
>> are circumsized (sp). ;)"
>>
>> *****
>>
>> And finally:
>> Message-ID: >
>>
>> "I haven't noticed any more or less, really, but I do know that it's
>> easier to get away when she can't hold on. ;) She is "oral" oriented
>> is is an unrepentant chewer. That part of it means she bites is no
>> surprise. She's been launching Kamikaze flying attacks since the day
>> I brought her home. The cable guy stepped on her tail once and she
>> didn't hide from him the rest of the time like most cats might. She
>> sat on the stairs and plotted revenge, carefully looking him up and
>> down for the best attack point, the end of her tail softly twitching
>> back and forth. She waited until he was done, packed his stuff, and
>> headed for the door then she just flew at his ankles.
>>
>> The vet said spaying should calm her, but it didn't. Spray bottles
>> sat conveniently all around the house, but she would just hunch up and
>> take the punishment and go right back to what she was doing (like some
>> 2-
>> year old kids I know). The vet recommended drugging her, but I liked
>> her spunk and playfulness when she wasn't trying to shred someone. I
>> don't want just a fluffy couch ornament--she's my pal. I simply do
>> not think that declawing her under the circumstances was wrong
>> regardless
>> of what these ignorant zealots declare they know about me and my
>> life."
>> ***************
>>
>> After reading all of your posts, one has to wonder if you ever even
>> *tried* trimming the Kami's nails.
>>
>> You need serious lessons in cat behavior, and truly, should
>> never have aquired a cat because you apparently know so little about
>> them.
>>
>> >From a clinical standpoint, we have evidence of overstimulation and
>> play aggression by the owner (constant touching/hand playing/allowing
>> biting), defensive
>> behavior by the cat (scratching and biting), inappropriate punishment
>> (squirt bottle overuse/abuse), and poor veterinary counseling
>> (apparently no good behavior modification counseling/referral for drug
>> therapy to treat the behavior(!) when, in fact, the owner was
>> *clearly* the problem). Not to mention the botched declaw surgery and
>> poor post-operative care by a half-assed vet.
>>
>> My guess would be that the same vet that was so
>> inept at identifying the cause of the behavior is the same one who
>> used surgical glue to seal the wounds, despite the fact that surgical
>> glue has been indicated in the formation of crystalline granulomas in
>> delcawed cats (What you refer to as "she had the surgical glue or
>> whatever heal inside".)
>>
>> **********
>> Here is another exchange where two other posters basically told you
>> exactly what I have told you here.
>>
>> You describe what Kami was doing, Megan responded,
>> you have a volitile reaction (as is your habit), and then someone
>> agrees with Megan and provides plenty of links to back her up. As I
>> said before, Kami didn't have a problem that couldn't have been easily
>> corrected if you had simply learned to pay attention to the signals she
>> was sending you:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/msg/5049a9c6566b80b1
>>
>>
>> Path:
>> archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshu b2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md. home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>> From: "carbook" >
>> Newsgroups: alt.gossip.celebrities
>> References: >
>> >
>> >
>> Subject: Re: O/T - Cat Scratching solutions?
>> Lines: 64
>> X-Priority: 3
>> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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>> Message-ID: >
>> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 04:30:58 GMT
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.13.243.220
>> X-Complaints-To:
>> X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1009341058 24.13.243.220 (Tue, 25 Dec
>> 2001 20:30:58 PST)
>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:30:58 PST
>> Organization: [email protected] - The Leader in Broadband
>> http://home.com/faster
>>
>>
>> "Brandy Alexandre®" > wrote in message
>> . 22...
>>> After serious umbilicus contemplation, wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Brandy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> She is very sweet 95% of the time and
>>>>> very tactile, which made the claw thing
>>>>> rather difficult. And that other 5% made
>>>>> the claw thing torturous. We could be
>>>>> laying in bed and she all laid out loving
>>>>> the petting, resting her head on my hand, and she would lightly lay
>>>>> her teeth in skin for some unknown reason.
>>>>> You next move at this point will make all
>>>>> the difference between nothing more than a drool kiss and all out
>>>>> war.
>>>> This type of behavior has been called "Don't pet me anymore"
>>>> aggression, and is easily avoided by learning to read the cats body
>>>> language and stopping physical contact before the cat gets past the
>>>> point of no return. Declawing a cat that exhibits this behavior is
>>>> not necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Megan
>>>>
>>> Oh, now you're suddenly and behavior expert and know exactly what goes
>>> on in my home for what reason from the breif explanation of a long and
>>> complex problem. I see. You have proven yourself quite a close-minded
>>> zealot and now you're just insane.
>>>
>>> *PLONK*
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brandy Alexandre
>>> http://kamikaze.org (Adults Only)
>> Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean she isn't right. It
>> *is*
>> a recognized cat trait. Yours certainly isn't the only cat that has
>> acted
>> that way, nor will it be the last. There are vets and other's who have
>> cataloged and researched cat behaviors, and a quick search of the web
>> would
>> have brought this information up.
>>
>> You can check...
>> http://64.87.126.141/behavior/cathumag.htm
>> http://www.sthuberts.org/petpouri/articles/dont.htm
>> http://pets.msn.com/cats/care/article4.asp
>> http://www.catcaresociety.org/aggression.htm
>> http://www.paws.org/work/factsheet/catfactsheets/cataggression2.html
>> http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/e-vets/catbehavior/cataggression2.html
>> just for a start.
>>
>> And she's right, declawing doesn't stop this type of behavior, as the
>> cat
>> will just go to bitting in the future instead of clawing when they've
>> reached their limit. Much easier to learn to read the cat's body
>> language
>> and avoid the moment all together.
>>
>> Carbook"
>>
>> *****
>> Despite all of this evidence, you still fail to take responsibility for
>> creating a situation that could have been prevented, and then resorting
>> to declawing to "solve" the "problem." What you discovered is that Kami
>> became more fearful and aggressive, which is the exact outcome Megan,
>> or Phil, or I, or anyone who works in animal rescue could have
>> predicted.
>>
>> In the future, I can only hope that someday you will read what is
>> written here and take it to heart. Learn from your mistake and never
>> again declaw a cat, or if you are inclined to declaw again, refrain
>>from acquiring another cat.
>> This cat was doomed from day one, and this is *exactly* why I am very,
>> very careful about to whom I rehome cats. Some fates are worse than
>> humane euthanasia.
>>
>> But posts like yours serve a purpose. They are very useful in teaching
>> the public about the problems associated with declaw surgery, and they
>> are excellent ammunition in the fight to get this barbaric practice
>> banned. For this, we can only thank you.
>>
>> Sadly, one cannot help but pity Kami for her years of suffering.
>>
>> -L.
>>
>> ***keywords Brandy Alexandre Kami declaw aggression bite biting claw
>> nail
>

Joe Canuck
February 25th 06, 05:33 PM
Rhonda wrote:
> The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I don't
> hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago. I would guess that
> after reading everything Brandy would not do it to a cat again, but
> she's not going to admit it here after all of the words back and forth.
> Why would she?
>
> I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed and
> trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as a
> profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why should anyone
> care in general? Why is she routinely trashed for it, is it because the
> rest of us are holier-than-thou? The double-standards in this society
> drive me crazy. If some guy came on here from her former profession,
> he'd probably be called a stud, but people feel free to call Brandy
> every name in the book. Some people take special glee in flinging the
> names at her, trashing her because of a friggin' job, I suppose to make
> themselves feel superior.
>
> Maybe I should go over to the fluffy group for awhile...
>
> Rhonda
>

Well, it is like this...

Brandy *loves* to accuse others of dwelling in the past yet she does so
herself by using an email addy and at one time in very recent past a
posting name with direct links to her past. My irony meter breaks every
time this one comes up.

<scratching head>

Gees, y'know... the solution is so simple, she just needs to pick a
simple posting identity with no association with the past and
participate as a normal user... whatever we are defining normal as these
days. :-D

I suspect she enjoys the attention... even the negative attention.

PawsForThought
February 25th 06, 05:33 PM
Rhonda wrote:
> The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I don't
> hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago. I would guess that
> after reading everything Brandy would not do it to a cat again, but
> she's not going to admit it here after all of the words back and forth.
> Why would she?

A person who admits that they declawed their cat, and then subsequently
discovered what declawing actually was, and that they would never do it
again takes a certain strength of character. It doesn't matter what
people have posted. If Brandy really felt remorse, and had integrity,
I think she would have no problem admitting that she wouldn't declaw
again. But from what I read of her posts, she really doesn't feel any
regret (maybe, but only that perhaps her cat is more aloof or bites
more, not that it hurt her cat by having her declawed).

> I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed and
> trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as a
> profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why should anyone
> care in general?

Personally, I couldn't care less what Brandy did or does for a living.
It's really none of my business. My problem with her is that she won't
become educated on the cruelty of declawing. That to me is much more
relevant.

Rescue
February 25th 06, 05:38 PM
PawsForThought wrote:

> A person who admits that they declawed their cat, and then subsequently
> discovered what declawing actually was...

well people used to burn witches...so called witches...

they had no remorse about that, I think the conscience can morph
educating ourselves on a subject will also have an impact.

and of course, if someone tears into them for doing it, it's just a
reflex to defend the action.

Rhonda
February 25th 06, 09:15 PM
PawsForThought wrote:

> Rhonda wrote:
>
>> The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I
>> don't hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago. I would
>> guess that after reading everything Brandy would not do it to a
>> cat again, but she's not going to admit it here after all of the
>> words back and forth. Why would she?
>
> A person who admits that they declawed their cat, and then
> subsequently discovered what declawing actually was, and that they
> would never do it again takes a certain strength of character. It
> doesn't matter what people have posted. If Brandy really felt
> remorse, and had integrity, I think she would have no problem
> admitting that she wouldn't declaw again. But from what I read of
> her posts, she really doesn't feel any regret (maybe, but only that
> perhaps her cat is more aloof or bites more, not that it hurt her
> cat by having her declawed).
>
>
>> I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed
>> and trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as
>> a profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why
>> should anyone care in general?
>
> Personally, I couldn't care less what Brandy did or does for a
> living. It's really none of my business. My problem with her is
> that she won't become educated on the cruelty of declawing. That
> to me is much more relevant.


Paws, how do you know she is not "educated" on the subject on the
cruelty, just because she won't come right out and say she'd never ever
do it again, cross her heart? Why does her personal situation as matter
that much to you?

I think you should ask yourself if you are incredibly worried about her
future cats, or if you just want her to admit she was wrong.

Rhonda

Rhonda
February 25th 06, 09:25 PM
wrote:

> Rhonda wrote:
>
>> The declawing subject is always emotional. I hate declawing, but I
>> don't hate someone who did it to their cat 15 years ago.
>>
>
> I don't hate Karleen.

Okay...

>> I would guess that after reading everything Brandy would not do it
>> to a cat again, but she's not going to admit it here after all
>> of the words back and forth. Why would she?
>>
>
> She already said she doesn't know if she would do it again or not. She'd
> have a hell of a lot more respect if she would say she learned from
> her mistakes and would never choose to declaw again.

Do you think so? Say she says she regrets that decision. How about the
next time she has a difference of opinion on something else, will the
occupation be hauled out by someone again?

>> I really don't understand why people's former jobs are discussed
>> and trashed on this group. I don't care what anyone used to do as
>> a profession, except maybe kill people for a living... Why
>> should anyone care in general? Why is she routinely trashed for
>> it, is it because the rest of us are holier-than-thou?
>>
>
> I only responded in kind when she made personal attacks based on my
former
> occupation. If she wants to discusss former occupations, and why
> we no longer do them, let's discuss it. She just conveniently forgot
> about hers - and her lack of success in doing it - when she brought
> it up, evidently. Prior to that I made no mention what-so-ever of
> Karleen's former occupation.

I honestly lost track of who was saying what. I would agree if someone
starts trashing your former occupation (if that's what she did -- I
didn't read all that) then it's fair game to trash theirs. There's also
a difference between trashing the occupation and trashing the person.

>> The double-standards in this society drive me crazy. If some guy
>> came on here from her former profession, he'd probably be called
>> a stud, but people feel free to call Brandy every name in the
>> book. Some people take special glee in flinging the names at her,
>> trashing her because of a friggin' job, I suppose to make themselves
>> feel superior.
>>
>
> LOL...c'mon Rhonda. Tell me you respect porn starts of any sex.
> That's
> a joke. I know one of the most successful male porn stars in the
> business. The guy is a major slimeball, and not just because he's a
> porn star. It's a dirty industry and I don't mean because of the sex.

If a guy started posting here about his cat, he was asking advice or
talking about it like a regular person and he cared about the cat, I
wouldn't care if he was a porn star 15 years ago, I wouldn't stereotype
him. An old occupation wouldn't add or detract from what he was saying.
If he came on here acting like a slimeball, then he's a slimeball.

Another thing, if he was a regular-type guy posting about his cat and he
mentioned he used to be in the porn industry, do you think people would
start calling him a slut or whore when they had a difference of
opinion with him?

Rhonda

cybercat
February 25th 06, 10:17 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote
>
> I think you should ask yourself if you are incredibly worried about her
> future cats, or if you just want her to admit she was wrong.
>

I want her to admit that it was an unnecessary, brutal and destructive
thing to do. I can't worry about her future cats. If I worried about every
cat in the hands of selfish morons, that would be a full-time job.

Sure, maybe she is digging in and refusing to admit that she knows
it was a bad thing to do. I don't really care why she behaves as she
does. I just want her to admit the obvious.

And, since what she wants is attention, she is getting hers here too.

I can see why Charlie would want to be Brandy's "knight in shining
armor." But, honestly, I don't think she needs a lot of help here. She
created this out of her need for attention, and she is getting what she
wanted. I say anything I feel like saying just because I want to express
myself. I am not trying to persuade. I am not Oppressing Aging Porn
Stars when I mention Brandy's ex-profession, I am simply expressing
another thing that disgusts me about her. The biggest turn-off about
her is her abuse of her cat. The second biggest turn-off is her personality.
The third is her ex-career. I'm not a prude--in fact I like erotic photos
and stories more than many women probably do. I just think, of all the
careers for someone to not only choose, but choose to broadcast years
after aging out of the biz--this is what our gal Brandy chose. It just
tells you a lot about her character and capabilities. Assuming (and this
might be false) that anyone with a choice might choose to do something
besides taking it up the butt on camera etc.

Granted, I am probably biased. If Brandy were bright and funny and
sincere, a major cat lover who was a bit deeper than 1/4 inch, I might
think, "wow, it takes a special type of open-minded woman to choose
this for a living and choose to broadcast that she made this choice ten
years after the fact on Usenet. I mean, Brandy is obviously a neat person."
Instead, she's an annoying, shallow, cat-abusing half-wit. Therein lies
any bias I may have. I think the only way Brandy can get the attention
she needs is to be annoying, because she has no qualities that might
attract attention for other reasons. Intelligence, wit, knowledge of things
outside bjs and the "kama sutra," you know, stuff like that. That does
not make me angry, sad, or anything, really. It just "is." Like my need
to say what I feel like saying whether or not I have an agenda like
persuasion. It is, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it, and I
bet Brandy doesn't care what anyone thinks about the way she is as
long as she gets to be the way she wants to be.

ahhhhhhh. Simple expression. It's a good thing. It does not have to
garner admiration, make friends, or persuade. It might even make you
dislike me. It is still worth it. It still feels good. Cheap instant
gratification.
:)

Joe Canuck
February 25th 06, 10:58 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "Rhonda" > wrote
>> I think you should ask yourself if you are incredibly worried about her
>> future cats, or if you just want her to admit she was wrong.
>>
>
> I want her to admit that it was an unnecessary, brutal and destructive
> thing to do. I can't worry about her future cats. If I worried about every
> cat in the hands of selfish morons, that would be a full-time job.
>
> Sure, maybe she is digging in and refusing to admit that she knows
> it was a bad thing to do. I don't really care why she behaves as she
> does. I just want her to admit the obvious.
>
> And, since what she wants is attention, she is getting hers here too.
>
> I can see why Charlie would want to be Brandy's "knight in shining
> armor." But, honestly, I don't think she needs a lot of help here. She
> created this out of her need for attention, and she is getting what she
> wanted. I say anything I feel like saying just because I want to express
> myself. I am not trying to persuade. I am not Oppressing Aging Porn
> Stars when I mention Brandy's ex-profession, I am simply expressing
> another thing that disgusts me about her. The biggest turn-off about
> her is her abuse of her cat. The second biggest turn-off is her personality.
> The third is her ex-career. I'm not a prude--in fact I like erotic photos
> and stories more than many women probably do. I just think, of all the
> careers for someone to not only choose, but choose to broadcast years
> after aging out of the biz--this is what our gal Brandy chose. It just
> tells you a lot about her character and capabilities. Assuming (and this
> might be false) that anyone with a choice might choose to do something
> besides taking it up the butt on camera etc.
>
> Granted, I am probably biased. If Brandy were bright and funny and
> sincere, a major cat lover who was a bit deeper than 1/4 inch, I might
> think, "wow, it takes a special type of open-minded woman to choose
> this for a living and choose to broadcast that she made this choice ten
> years after the fact on Usenet. I mean, Brandy is obviously a neat person."
> Instead, she's an annoying, shallow, cat-abusing half-wit. Therein lies
> any bias I may have. I think the only way Brandy can get the attention
> she needs is to be annoying, because she has no qualities that might
> attract attention for other reasons. Intelligence, wit, knowledge of things
> outside bjs and the "kama sutra," you know, stuff like that. That does
> not make me angry, sad, or anything, really. It just "is." Like my need
> to say what I feel like saying whether or not I have an agenda like
> persuasion. It is, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it, and I
> bet Brandy doesn't care what anyone thinks about the way she is as
> long as she gets to be the way she wants to be.
>
> ahhhhhhh. Simple expression. It's a good thing. It does not have to
> garner admiration, make friends, or persuade. It might even make you
> dislike me. It is still worth it. It still feels good. Cheap instant
> gratification.
> :)
>
>

Sometimes I think the name of this group should be...

rec.oldpornstars.brandy.health+behav

:-D

Glitter Ninja
February 25th 06, 11:04 PM
Margarita Salt > writes:

>Tell how a cat is fearful when I'm just watching TV, minding my own
>busines, and Kami walks out of the bedroom, see me, and goes for the
>throat.

A cat can attack out of fear.
I don't know why cats attack sometimes, to us humans it seems like no
reason, but I hope you checked out WHY she was attacking before you
declawed her. Declawing isn't a solution for attacking, at least not
one I ever heard of.
My mom had her cat declawed. He got a nasty infection and was sick
for weeks, and has deformed front paws. Poor guy :( We have him now and
while he still scratches like he's got claws, he bites more than any of
our other cats who have all claws intact. It's all in play,
fortunately. Seems like declawing just changes the way they attack, not
the frequency of it.

Stacia

Glitter Ninja
February 25th 06, 11:11 PM
"Phil P." > writes:

>Because you're psychotic and she doesn't know what to expect from you- a
>swat, kick or pat. Its called defensive aggression, moron.

I've been reading Brandi's posts for years and I've always gotten the
impression that people react to her because of her vocation more than
anything. It's not fair. I'm not saying I'm perfect - I've been known
to verbally kick the ass of someone who admitted to being a landlord -
but her job probably doesn't have anything to do with how the cats are
treated.
As for being "psychotic", I unfortunately have a little experience
with my mom. She got a puppy and he became completely unmanageable and
eventually a vet diagnosed him as having been injured which caused some
brain damage. I always suspected mom did this, not because she was
mean, but we found out soon after that she was extremely ill and it
affected her mentally. Between the puppy and her cat, neither of them
acted friendly to her at all. They hid all the time, it was obvious
they were scared and confused. So if Brandi says Kami is approaching
her and playing and getting pet then I suspect Kami is not particularly
scared about unpredictable behavior from her human.
Just my thoughts.

Stacia

PawsForThought
February 25th 06, 11:52 PM
Rhonda wrote:
Paws, how do you know she is not "educated" on the subject on the
> cruelty, just because she won't come right out and say she'd never ever
> do it again, cross her heart?

I get it from her posts I've read here.

Why does her personal situation as matter
> that much to you?

Her personal situation in what way? Do you mean because of what her
vocation was? I already posted that I don't care what she did for a
living. We all do what we need to get by.

> I think you should ask yourself if you are incredibly worried about her
> future cats, or if you just want her to admit she was wrong.

It would be nice if she'd admit she were wrong, only for the benefit of
her current cat, not for my, or anyone else's, benefit. She needs to
stop blaming the cat and accept responsibility. As to future cats, I
honestly hope she never gets another one. I don't think she
understands nor respects them.

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 12:35 AM
On 25 Feb 2006 09:04:31 -0800, wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>
>> I suspect she has learned a lot since 1991, or whenever this took
>> place.
>
>Obviously not if she now says she doesn;'t know whether or not she
>would declaw a cat again. If you did an elective procedure and had
>"every complication known" would *you* ever do it again? C'mon Charlie
>- be real.
>
><snip>
>
>> >I have no doubt that Karleen loves Kami. No doubt what so ever. I
>> >also have no doubt that she created Kami's behavioral problems. It's
>>
>> I have grave doubts on that score, Lyn. What would she have done to
>> cause the behavioral issues she describes, assuming she was not
>> intentionally cruel to the animal?
>
>have you read anything that ws posted? her behaviors very clearly
>created the cat.

Yeah, I've been reading, skimming a few parts I will admit. What did
she do that was so bad? Was the cat jealous because ****ed and sucked
her way through a slew of hot porno movies?
>
>> My observation has been that
>> feline temperaments vary widely and unpredictably.
>
>And they respond predictablty to postivie interactions.

Well, no, they don't. They respond in widely different ways to
interaction depending on their temperament. Come on, Lyn, you know
that much. Some cats love to cuddle, some won't tolerate it for a
second no matter what.
>
>>
>> >her failure to learn from her mistakes - not even that - her lack of
>> >desire to learn from her mistakes that I loathe.
>> >
>> >I can't speak for the others..
>> >
>> >Actually I think I have been pretty civil to her until she attacked me
>> >about my former job. After that, hey - it's a free-for-all, AFAIC.
>>
>> Yeah, I wondered why she did that. But here you are tacitly
>> acknowledging that the dispute is more personal than substantial.
>
>Absolutley not. I only responded in kind when she made personal
>attacks based on my former occupation. If she wants to discusss former
>occupations, and why we no longer do them, let's discuss it. She just
>conveniently forgot about hers when she brought it up, evidently.
>
>Remember Charlie, I was one of the only ones who was supporting her
>when Kami was so sick. I have no inherent reason to hate her.

Yes you were. But she turned on you! So now you're lashing out.
It's purely emotional and defensive; the issue of declawing is merely
the weapon at hand.
>
>> I
>> think it is that way with most of the bickering in this group.
>
>Perhaps but not in this case, on my part, at least.

You know what they say about denial, Lyn. It's de longest river in de
world...

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 12:47 AM
On 25 Feb 2006 09:11:18 -0800, wrote:
>
>LOL...c'mon Rhonda. Tell me you respect porn starts of any sex.
>That's a joke. I know one of the most successful male porn stars in
>the business. The guy is a major slimeball, and not just because he's
>a porn star. It's a dirty industry and I don't mean because of the
>sex.

Bah. I knew a chick who was in porn, and she was a-ok. She spent a
summer on the island. She was a hot number, too... the rare
combination of big tits and a hard body. She wasn't really happy
though, because she knew a little too much of the truth about how
people are.

Charlie

cybercat
February 26th 06, 12:55 AM
"Joe Canuck" > wrote

> Sometimes I think the name of this group should be...
>
> rec.oldpornstars.brandy.health+behav
>
> :-D
>

I have a friend who knows how to make newsgroups!

cybercat
February 26th 06, 01:02 AM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> > BUT, the world is full of ranting buffoons, and they generally welcome
> > new recruits with open arms. That is why I think you would be a good
> > candidate for some political cause, like abortion or gun control.
> > Pick a side and grab a megaphone and let it all hang out.
>
> Unfortunately, you are just clueless about declawing, Charlie. I hope
> you would at least visit some of the links that have been posted here
> and be open to educating yourself.
>

I agree with you that declawing is brutal and unnecessary enough to
be very upsetting.

I would think Charlie could find better targets, but maybe his judgement if
swayed by his need to defend Brandy. It's the "power of the professional
slut" as he put it, that sways him.

It's not bad to rage against cruelty, Lauren and it never will be. I
consider it
a duty, and even if it's not, it's a pleasure. Rant on, sistah! De boid has
got
to sing. Not every expression must have a higher function. I bet when
Charlie steps in dog poop he says "****!" even though that is not going
to clean his shoe. For me, that is pretty much equivalent to reading
someone like Brandy saying she declawed her cat and does not regret
it, and you or me or anyone saying, out of sheer reflex, "Asshole!"

NMR
February 26th 06, 01:03 AM
NO DON'T DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
all she need is another way to have attention
She gets enough as it is

"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Joe Canuck" > wrote
>
>> Sometimes I think the name of this group should be...
>>
>> rec.oldpornstars.brandy.health+behav
>>
>> :-D
>>
>
> I have a friend who knows how to make newsgroups!
>
>

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 01:11 AM
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:18:41 -0500, Joe Canuck
> wrote:

>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
>> the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
>> being a liar, but in these posts she is candid about the problems that
>> followed her declawing of Kami. It would be easy for her to claim
>> that the declawing caused no problems at all. Who can prove
>> otherwise?
>>
>> She's also equivocal about having done it in the first place. And
>> this is one cat that she had declawed a long time ago... not exactly a
>> way of life, ferchrissakes.
>>
>> I've been following this group for about a year, I guess. People are
>> quick to point the finger and accuse someone else of abusing their
>> cat. But you know what? I don't think there is one, single person
>> active in this group who mistreats cats, not intentionally anyway. At
>> worst there may be instances of poor judgement.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>Then in terms of this group I suppose we could call you a newbie, but
>that would be labeling and serve no purpose.

It's ok, Joe. I'm sort of a perennial newbie.
>
>Keep an eye on Brandy's posts, over the long term you may spot something
>some of the others have... no big deal if you don't see it. Personally,
> I'm tired of her nonsense and commentary designed to stir things up.

It's pretty hard to miss. But, Brandy is intelligent and her comments
are interesting, to me at least. That's all I care about. I'm here
for information and entertainment.
>
>As for declawing not being a way of life, I do remember seeing a comment
>from her sometime ago informing us all she would do the declaw procedure
>over again. People are dynamic and subject to change, perhaps she no
>longer feels that way but given how she appears to have dug her heels in
>on the issue I don't expect a public admission that she has changed her
>position on that.
>
Nor do I. But, if she declaws 1,000 cats, that's between her, her
vet, and her financial advisor. I will save my griping for situations
where I might be able to do something.

Charlie

cybercat
February 26th 06, 01:14 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote :.
>
> It's pretty hard to miss. But, Brandy is intelligent and her comments
> are interesting, to me at least. That's all I care about. I'm here
> for information and entertainment.

Yer killin me, Charlie. Honest to dawg.

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 01:30 AM
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:32:17 GMT, "D." >
wrote:

>In article >, "cybercat" >
>wrote:
>
>> Sure, maybe she is digging in and refusing to admit that she knows
>> it was a bad thing to do.
>
>If you read the interview with her that someone posted, that seems to be
>her modus operandi about virtually everything. Admitting fault is
>something a certain type of person can't do. It's unfortunate, but the
>more the person digs in, the more they reveal of their insecurities; in
>my experience, comfortable, secure people have no problem admitting they
>were wrong. I also think she craves attention as she's the one who,
>until very recently, focused on her past. Without the link in her .sig,
>I'd have never known what she did. It doesn't matter to me, but the
>contentious attitude does. When I posted that there was all kinds of
>reliable veterinary info available through a Google search about onions
>as a toxin, she kept challenging me to "prove" it and saying that my
>refusal to post links meant I couldn't -- when of course everyone else
>could find, and did find, exactly the information I found -- it wasn't
>something I found in an obscure, out-of-print volume or made up. It was
>easily accessible, and I didn't have to "prove" anything. To this day,
>she thinks I never found the information. That's just bizarre. I don't
>think you can reason with that kind of "win at all costs" attitude.

I had the same thoughts about you when we were discussing pet
squirrels. You made a number of broad, unsupported assertions and
refused to acknowledge the resources available for people who really
want to learn about the subject.

Charlie

-L.
February 26th 06, 02:14 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
> Yeah, I've been reading, skimming a few parts I will admit. What did
> she do that was so bad?

I already pointed it out in a post you presumably read, Charles. I
certainly am not going to repost it.

> Was the cat jealous because ****ed and sucked
> her way through a slew of hot porno movies?
> >
> >> My observation has been that
> >> feline temperaments vary widely and unpredictably.
> >
> >And they respond predictablty to postivie interactions.
>
> Well, no, they don't. They respond in widely different ways to
> interaction depending on their temperament. Come on, Lyn, you know
> that much. Some cats love to cuddle, some won't tolerate it for a
> second no matter what.

I'm not talking about cuddling. I'm talking about recognizing specific
behaviors in the cat that signal what you are doing to it is NOT having
a positive affect on the cat and correcting yourself.

<snip>

> Yes you were. But she turned on you! So now you're lashing out.
> It's purely emotional and defensive; the issue of declawing is merely
> the weapon at hand.

Noooope. I have raked Karleen before on her failure to understand how
she "made" Kami. As have Phil and Megan, and....I dunno, 5 or 6 other
posters. You haven't been around that long to know the history. Most
of this is rehashed old territory. And I do agree that much of what
Karleen does is for attention. Maybe I just fell into it in her "Kami
is dying" threads, but I'd rather err on the side of caution if Kami
reallty was terminally ill. I don't particularly like you, yet I said
some nice things to you when you lost your dog, didn't I? Doesn't mean
I now want to suck your dick.

-L.

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 05:10 AM
On 26 Feb 2006 02:02:23 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> > BUT, the world is full of ranting buffoons, and they generally welcome
>> > new recruits with open arms. That is why I think you would be a good
>> > candidate for some political cause, like abortion or gun control.
>> > Pick a side and grab a megaphone and let it all hang out.
>>
>> Unfortunately, you are just clueless about declawing, Charlie. I hope
>> you would at least visit some of the links that have been posted here
>> and be open to educating yourself.
>>
>
>I agree with you that declawing is brutal and unnecessary enough to
>be very upsetting.
>
>I would think Charlie could find better targets, but maybe his judgement if
>swayed by his need to defend Brandy. It's the "power of the professional
>slut" as he put it, that sways him.
>
>It's not bad to rage against cruelty, Lauren and it never will be. I
>consider it
>a duty, and even if it's not, it's a pleasure. Rant on, sistah! De boid has
>got
>to sing. Not every expression must have a higher function. I bet when
>Charlie steps in dog poop he says "****!" even though that is not going
>to clean his shoe. For me, that is pretty much equivalent to reading
>someone like Brandy saying she declawed her cat and does not regret
>it, and you or me or anyone saying, out of sheer reflex, "Asshole!"
>
I suppose I say "ouch" when I cut myself too. It's an animal reflex.
What I don't do is imagine that I'm educating the public about the
dangers of sharp objects, or that I'm exercising my mental faculties
in any way.

As for being clueless about declawing, I have not claimed to know
anything about the subject. I'm merely a skeptic. My tendency is to
agree that declawing is a bad practice. But, what I read here doesn't
look like the opinions of medical experts. It looks like the babble
of overwrought cat-ladies, and it is unpersuasive.

I see the same thing with lots of other issues. Tom Cruise thinks he
knows all about psychiatry and antidepressant meds, and he is quick to
dismiss his critics as ignorant. He is entitled to his beliefs and
his attitude, and I'm entitled to my skepticism.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 05:10 AM
On 25 Feb 2006 18:14:48 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I've been reading, skimming a few parts I will admit. What did
>> she do that was so bad?
>
>I already pointed it out in a post you presumably read, Charles. I
>certainly am not going to repost it.
>
>> Was the cat jealous because ****ed and sucked
>> her way through a slew of hot porno movies?
>> >
>> >> My observation has been that
>> >> feline temperaments vary widely and unpredictably.
>> >
>> >And they respond predictablty to postivie interactions.
>>
>> Well, no, they don't. They respond in widely different ways to
>> interaction depending on their temperament. Come on, Lyn, you know
>> that much. Some cats love to cuddle, some won't tolerate it for a
>> second no matter what.
>
>I'm not talking about cuddling. I'm talking about recognizing specific
>behaviors in the cat that signal what you are doing to it is NOT having
>a positive affect on the cat and correcting yourself.

Well, again, what was she doing that was causing Kami's unpleasant
behavior? Petting her too much or too persistently, or at the wrong
time? I've been guilty of that, and I'll bet most people have.
>
><snip>
>
>> Yes you were. But she turned on you! So now you're lashing out.
>> It's purely emotional and defensive; the issue of declawing is merely
>> the weapon at hand.
>
>Noooope. I have raked Karleen before on her failure to understand how
>she "made" Kami. As have Phil and Megan, and....I dunno, 5 or 6 other
>posters. You haven't been around that long to know the history. Most
>of this is rehashed old territory. And I do agree that much of what
>Karleen does is for attention. Maybe I just fell into it in her "Kami
>is dying" threads, but I'd rather err on the side of caution if Kami
>reallty was terminally ill. I don't particularly like you, yet I said
>some nice things to you when you lost your dog, didn't I? Doesn't mean
>I now want to suck your dick.
>
>-L.

Oh yes you do. Denying it only makes it that much more obvious to
everyone.

Charlie

cybercat
February 26th 06, 06:08 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote

> >
> >I would think Charlie could find better targets, but maybe his judgement
if
> >swayed by his need to defend Brandy. It's the "power of the professional
> >slut" as he put it, that sways him.
> >
> >It's not bad to rage against cruelty, Lauren and it never will be. I
> >consider it
> >a duty, and even if it's not, it's a pleasure. Rant on, sistah! De boid
has
> >got
> >to sing. Not every expression must have a higher function. I bet when
> >Charlie steps in dog poop he says "****!" even though that is not going
> >to clean his shoe. For me, that is pretty much equivalent to reading
> >someone like Brandy saying she declawed her cat and does not regret
> >it, and you or me or anyone saying, out of sheer reflex, "Asshole!"
> >
> I suppose I say "ouch" when I cut myself too. It's an animal reflex.
> What I don't do is imagine that I'm educating the public about the
> dangers of sharp objects, or that I'm exercising my mental faculties
> in any way.

Who said I was interested in educating the public or exercising my
"mental faculties" with Usenet posts? That might be what you think
you're doing, but I make no such claims.

>
> As for being clueless about declawing, I have not claimed to know
> anything about the subject. I'm merely a skeptic. My tendency is to
> agree that declawing is a bad practice. But, what I read here doesn't
> look like the opinions of medical experts. It looks like the babble
> of overwrought cat-ladies, and it is unpersuasive.
>

:) Could be, or could be there is a middle ground between
"overwrought catladies" and medical experts. And, as I said, you
are the one making the assumption that everyone here is trying
to persuade. That's not what I'm doing at all.

> I see the same thing with lots of other issues. Tom Cruise thinks he
> knows all about psychiatry and antidepressant meds, and he is quick to
> dismiss his critics as ignorant. He is entitled to his beliefs and
> his attitude, and I'm entitled to my skepticism.
>

Neither I nor Lauren has presented ourselves as any sort of expert on
anything. All Lauren was doing was giving you the benefit of the doubt
by implying that if you realized how brutal declawing is, you would find
it worthy of the kind of strong reaction she has--and I have-- against it.
I think you are presumptuous as hell, but I never claimed you were
ignorant of anything.

I will venture to guess that your motives don't have lot to do with
the declawing issue, and more power to you. :)

What bothers me is that you belittle Lauren, me, and others who are
horrified by the acceptance of this practice by labeling us "hysterical
cat ladies." It's horse****, Charlie, and about as valid a point as the one
you made about Brandy's "intelligence." Your "more rational than thou"
stance disappoints me. I would have thought you were bright enough to
know that apathy is nothing to be proud of, and that the presence of
passion is in no way synonymous with the absence of reason. But the
bigger flaw in your argument lies in your assumption that we are all
here to persuade. I for one am not interested in persuading halfwits that
the
earth is round.

Phil P.
February 26th 06, 07:16 AM
"Glitter Ninja" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> but her job probably doesn't have anything to do with how the cats are
> treated.

I think it did if she received complaints about scratches and bite marks
from people she worked with. I think she's quite capable of physically
hurting the cat in a fit of anger-or stupor- especially if she doesn't get
to a newsgroup in time to "vent" before she "takes it out on Kami".


> As for being "psychotic", I unfortunately have a little experience
> with my mom. She got a puppy and he became completely unmanageable and
> eventually a vet diagnosed him as having been injured which caused some
> brain damage.


Could be. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of brain damage caused by
trauma to the cat's head in a fit of anger, rage or stupor.



So if Brandi says Kami is approaching
> her and playing and getting pet then I suspect Kami is not particularly
> scared about unpredictable behavior from her human.

This can be difficult to understand since many abused cats actually seek
attention from their owners. Cats have emotional radar- so her behavior at
any given time might depend on Brandy's state of mind at the time.

Phil

Phil P.
February 26th 06, 07:16 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Feb 2006 23:10:46 -0800, "-L." > wrote:
>
> >
> >Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >> Having read all of Brandy's comments below, I don't see the basis for
> >> the hostility aimed her way. People in this group are accusing her of
> >> being a liar,


Probably because she is a liar. She lied about when she declawed Kami. Who
knows what else she lied about. Actually, I think she'll say anything to
avoid looking like she's at fault. She's always has to be the innocent
victim. lol!



> I suspect she has learned a lot since 1991, or whenever this took
> place.


Obviously she hasn't since she takes no responsibility for Kami's problems
nor feels any remorse whatsoever. She has even indicated that she might
declaw another cat. But declawing isn't the only issue.



> I have grave doubts on that score, Lyn. What would she have done to
> cause the behavioral issues she describes,

This has been covered many times by many people. I suggest you do your
homework before defending her or criticizing others for rebuking her for her
treatment of Kami.

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 08:04 AM
On 26 Feb 2006 07:08:24 +0100, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>
>> >
>> >I would think Charlie could find better targets, but maybe his judgement
>if
>> >swayed by his need to defend Brandy. It's the "power of the professional
>> >slut" as he put it, that sways him.
>> >
>> >It's not bad to rage against cruelty, Lauren and it never will be. I
>> >consider it
>> >a duty, and even if it's not, it's a pleasure. Rant on, sistah! De boid
>has
>> >got
>> >to sing. Not every expression must have a higher function. I bet when
>> >Charlie steps in dog poop he says "****!" even though that is not going
>> >to clean his shoe. For me, that is pretty much equivalent to reading
>> >someone like Brandy saying she declawed her cat and does not regret
>> >it, and you or me or anyone saying, out of sheer reflex, "Asshole!"
>> >
>> I suppose I say "ouch" when I cut myself too. It's an animal reflex.
>> What I don't do is imagine that I'm educating the public about the
>> dangers of sharp objects, or that I'm exercising my mental faculties
>> in any way.
>
>Who said I was interested in educating the public or exercising my
>"mental faculties" with Usenet posts? That might be what you think
>you're doing, but I make no such claims.
>
>>
>> As for being clueless about declawing, I have not claimed to know
>> anything about the subject. I'm merely a skeptic. My tendency is to
>> agree that declawing is a bad practice. But, what I read here doesn't
>> look like the opinions of medical experts. It looks like the babble
>> of overwrought cat-ladies, and it is unpersuasive.
>>
>
>:) Could be, or could be there is a middle ground between
>"overwrought catladies" and medical experts. And, as I said, you
>are the one making the assumption that everyone here is trying
>to persuade. That's not what I'm doing at all.

No, I was thinking of Lauren and her "rough" approach, and her claim
that it is effective as a means of educating people, as evidenced by
grateful emails she supposedly has received. The comments are in this
thread. I don't believe it because it flies in the face of all my
personal experience.
>
>> I see the same thing with lots of other issues. Tom Cruise thinks he
>> knows all about psychiatry and antidepressant meds, and he is quick to
>> dismiss his critics as ignorant. He is entitled to his beliefs and
>> his attitude, and I'm entitled to my skepticism.
>>
>
>Neither I nor Lauren has presented ourselves as any sort of expert on
>anything. All Lauren was doing was giving you the benefit of the doubt
>by implying that if you realized how brutal declawing is, you would find
>it worthy of the kind of strong reaction she has--and I have-- against it.
>I think you are presumptuous as hell, but I never claimed you were
>ignorant of anything.

Again, my comment is in response to Lauren's assertion that I am
clueless about declawing, to which my response is: mea culpa. I guess
I should have responded directly to her post.
>
>I will venture to guess that your motives don't have lot to do with
>the declawing issue, and more power to you. :)

No, I am more interested in the dynamics of this discussion. Is it a
lot of venting, or is someone actually trying to say something?
>
>What bothers me is that you belittle Lauren, me, and others who are
>horrified by the acceptance of this practice by labeling us "hysterical
>cat ladies." It's horse****, Charlie, and about as valid a point as the one

Well, again, are you trying to communicate effectively, or are you
expiating a gut-level reaction? If it's the latter, then the label
may be unkindly worded, and for that I apologize, but it's not
terribly far from the mark. If it's the former, I would say your
approach is flawed.

>you made about Brandy's "intelligence." Your "more rational than thou"
>stance disappoints me. I would have thought you were bright enough to
>know that apathy is nothing to be proud of, and that the presence of

Apathy, or neutrality, is not a point of honor, but it's not
necessarily a cause for shame, either. The declawing issue is not one
that involves me personally. It's not something I know enough about
to render a judgement. I can easily understand the arguments against
it, but I can also imagine circumstances under which a cat owner might
reasonably decide it is the best option. Behavioral modification of
dogs is reliable and well-understood. If that is also true for cats,
then I am indeed more ignorant than I think I am.

Charlie


>passion is in no way synonymous with the absence of reason. But the
>bigger flaw in your argument lies in your assumption that we are all
>here to persuade. I for one am not interested in persuading halfwits that
>the
>earth is round.
>

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 10:37 AM
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:16:55 GMT, "Phil P." >
wrote:
>
>This has been covered many times by many people. I suggest you do your
>homework before defending her or criticizing others for rebuking her for her
>treatment of Kami.
>
I suggest you take a sharp rock and shove it up your pompous ass.

Charlie

Rhonda
February 26th 06, 04:00 PM
PawsForThought wrote:

> Rhonda wrote:
> Paws, how do you know she is not "educated" on the subject on the
>
>>cruelty, just because she won't come right out and say she'd never ever
>>do it again, cross her heart?
>>
>
> I get it from her posts I've read here.
>
> Why does her personal situation as matter
>
>>that much to you?
>>
>
> Her personal situation in what way? Do you mean because of what her
> vocation was? I already posted that I don't care what she did for a
> living. We all do what we need to get by.


No, I mean her situation with Kami. She did this 15 years ago and it's
done. If she would have then dumped Kami for behavior problems -- that
would have been a whole different issue. There are tons of declawed
cats, I don't know why this situation hits such a nerve with you. Why
not use that energy to campaign against it through the Humane Society or
some other means, to a broader audience?


>>I think you should ask yourself if you are incredibly worried about her
>>future cats, or if you just want her to admit she was wrong.
>>
>
> It would be nice if she'd admit she were wrong, only for the benefit of
> her current cat, not for my, or anyone else's, benefit. She needs to
> stop blaming the cat and accept responsibility. As to future cats, I
> honestly hope she never gets another one. I don't think she
> understands nor respects them.


Admitting she made a mistake would not benefit her current cat in any
way now. Cats just don't live by our rules for each other. Kami would
probably be more grateful for a can of tuna than words about a mistake
made years ago.

Rhonda

Rhonda
February 26th 06, 04:10 PM
cybercat wrote:

>
> I want her to admit that it was an unnecessary, brutal and destructive
> thing to do.


But why this one and not the other thousands? Why is this so personal,
is it because you've been talking to her (or getting on her case) for
years about it? It's such a lot of energy to spend on someone you don't
even know.

That's what I don't understand -- the need for some to have her say
she's sorry. I don't know why this is so personal that it would make
some people feel so much better. Why does it matter years later? She has
to reconcile the declawing and aftermath with herself, not to the group.

> I can't worry about her future cats. If I worried about every
> cat in the hands of selfish morons, that would be a full-time job.

And it doesn't pay well.

Rhonda

PawsForThought
February 26th 06, 04:24 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
As for being clueless about declawing, I have not claimed to know
> anything about the subject. I'm merely a skeptic. My tendency is to
> agree that declawing is a bad practice. But, what I read here doesn't
> look like the opinions of medical experts. It looks like the babble
> of overwrought cat-ladies, and it is unpersuasive.

Sounds to me like it's easier for you to criticize the post or poster,
than actually learn anything. Maybe it's your desire to defend Brandy,
I don't know. I guess I'll have to post some educational links again
for you. This time you have no excuse for not educating yourself,
other than laziness or that you just don't care.

First, if you're brave enough: http://tinyurl.com/r2lmo

http://cats.about.com/od/declawing/
(many links contained within)

Lauren
See my cats: http://tinyurl.com/76tg8

PawsForThought
February 26th 06, 04:28 PM
Rhonda wrote:
Admitting she made a mistake would not benefit her current cat in any
> way now. Cats just don't live by our rules for each other. Kami would
> probably be more grateful for a can of tuna than words about a mistake
> made years ago.

I guess you don't understand what I was saying. It's not the words I'm
talking about here. I think if she were to admit the mistake, then I
think the bond between her and her cat would be a better one. If she
were to respect her cat and love the way her cat is for herself, then I
think she would have a better understanding, and both could hopefully
benefit.

Margarita Salt
February 26th 06, 04:40 PM
Rhonda > wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> cybercat wrote:
>
>>
>> I want her to admit that it was an unnecessary, brutal and
>> destructive thing to do.
>
>
> But why this one and not the other thousands? Why is this so
> personal, is it because you've been talking to her (or getting on
> her case) for years about it? It's such a lot of energy to spend
> on someone you don't even know.

That's interesting. In another post he wrote:

::) Could be, or could be there is a middle ground between
:"overwrought catladies" and medical experts. And, as I said, you
:are the one making the assumption that everyone here is trying
:to persuade. That's not what I'm doing at all.




--
Margarita Salt

"...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or
entirely good... motives are often more important than
actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt

Rhonda
February 26th 06, 04:43 PM
PawsForThought wrote:

> Rhonda wrote:
> Admitting she made a mistake would not benefit her current cat in any
>
>>way now. Cats just don't live by our rules for each other. Kami would
>>probably be more grateful for a can of tuna than words about a mistake
>>made years ago.
>>
>
> I guess you don't understand what I was saying. It's not the words I'm
> talking about here. I think if she were to admit the mistake, then I
> think the bond between her and her cat would be a better one. If she
> were to respect her cat and love the way her cat is for herself, then I
> think she would have a better understanding, and both could hopefully
> benefit.


Maybe I don't understand -- so you are doing all of this, wanting her to
apologize to improve her bond with Kami? Do you think she may not love
Kami enough already?

I still wonder if you are pressing the issue because you want a public
apology. You want her to admit on the group that she was wrong and
everyone else was right. That's my guess, of course, not really my
business. My opinion is though, there are so many others out there you
can save from declawing with all of this energy, and this Kami-thing is
an old issue.

Time to go off and enjoy the day...

Rhonda

Charlie Wilkes
February 26th 06, 08:08 PM
On 26 Feb 2006 08:28:53 -0800, "PawsForThought"
> wrote:

>
>Rhonda wrote:
>Admitting she made a mistake would not benefit her current cat in any
>> way now. Cats just don't live by our rules for each other. Kami would
>> probably be more grateful for a can of tuna than words about a mistake
>> made years ago.
>
>I guess you don't understand what I was saying. It's not the words I'm
>talking about here. I think if she were to admit the mistake, then I
>think the bond between her and her cat would be a better one.

How do you reach that conclusion? That is a bull**** statement if I
ever read one.

>If she
>were to respect her cat and love the way her cat is for herself, then I
>think she would have a better understanding, and both could hopefully
>benefit.

I think Brandy loves the cat for what it is, assuming that is the
thought you are trying to express. Christ, the woman had to go out to
the coast for a 3-month work assignment, and she jumped through hoops
to take the cat with her. If she didn't care, she'd have boarded it.
That was this past year. You're worried about something she did 15
years ago, and thinking her lack of repentance somehow imposes a
barrier in her relationship with her cat???

You're a fanatic without a cause, Laurie. How about fundamentalist
Christianity, eh? That's got a good, solid constituency in this
country... people who believe the world is only 7,000 years old, that
Santa Claus is a satanic corruption of the Lord's birthday, that kind
of thing. Sign up -- you'll fit right in.

Charlie