PDA

View Full Version : Diabetes, insulin change and lack of coordination/clumsy?


Don Taylor
March 12th 06, 11:45 PM
Anyone seen information on this? I searched and can't find anything.

Older cat with diabetes induced by a series of steroids from a vet.
Figured this out, got him on appropriate insulin levels, he does ok.
Went this way for years, seemingly perfectly happy.

Then recently the vet says that the older humulin(sp?) insulin is
no longer available for pets, switched to the newer better form.
And we went through several rounds trying to get the dosage right,
one test said dose was correct but urine output was still huge,
repeat test said was way low, couldn't ever get a straight answer
about how the first test could have given such different answers, etc.

Soon afterwards we noticed Jack was "clumsy", he was slipping when
he would put his feet on the vinyl floor, wasn't leaping on the
couch with his usual coordination and grace, etc.

Back to the vet and the vet immediately said the lack of coordination
must be because of diabetes and we need more tests to get the right
insulin dose.

Does anyone know of any resources describing how diabetes could
suddenly result in loss of coordination? This came on very quickly.

Thanks

Anna via CatKB.com
March 13th 06, 12:40 AM
>Soon afterwards we noticed Jack was "clumsy", he was slipping when
>he would put his feet on the vinyl floor, wasn't leaping on the
>couch with his usual coordination and grace, etc.
>Back to the vet and the vet immediately said the lack of coordination
>must be because of diabetes and we need more tests to get the right
>insulin dose.
>Does anyone know of any resources describing how diabetes could
>suddenly result in loss of coordination? This came on very quickly.


According to these sites, it could be that his nerves in his legs were
damaged by the disease (diabetic neuropathy)

http://laurieulrich.com/jasper/
http://felinecrf.org/related_diseases.htm#diabetes_symptoms
http://www.felinediabetes.com/

Anna

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Rhonda
March 13th 06, 01:50 AM
Hi Don,

Cats can be hard to regulate. Sometimes they ricochet (I forget the
medical term for it) when the dosage is too high. It can fool you and
you think it's not high enough depending on when you do the test, so you
give more. The cats get wild blood swings -- way up and way down. Clumsy
and uncoordinated to me sounds like a dangerously low blood sugar level.
Of course I'm not even close to being a vet, but we went through this
with our cat.

Try posting on the message board at www.felinediates.com. There are tons
of experience people there that helped me every step of the way.

Your cat needs to have a blood curve done over a series of hours to see
what's going on (somewhere between 6-12 hours, I don't remember any more
but the message board can help.) Our vet had to back down the dose and
start very low, then slowly increase. Do you test your cat's sugar level
at home? That's the most accurate way because the cat is not stressed.
You can get meters almost anywhere now, even at Wal-Mart. You prick
their ears for a small drop of blood.

Good luck. With what happened to our cat, I would check with savvy vet
immediately because it sounds like the dose needs to be backed down
right away. I'd rather give not enough for a few days than have a cat
crashing. Do you have Karo Syrup or something handy if needed?

Let us know what happens,

Rhonda



Don Taylor wrote:

> Anyone seen information on this? I searched and can't find anything.
>
> Older cat with diabetes induced by a series of steroids from a vet.
> Figured this out, got him on appropriate insulin levels, he does ok.
> Went this way for years, seemingly perfectly happy.
>
> Then recently the vet says that the older humulin(sp?) insulin is
> no longer available for pets, switched to the newer better form.
> And we went through several rounds trying to get the dosage right,
> one test said dose was correct but urine output was still huge,
> repeat test said was way low, couldn't ever get a straight answer
> about how the first test could have given such different answers, etc.
>
> Soon afterwards we noticed Jack was "clumsy", he was slipping when
> he would put his feet on the vinyl floor, wasn't leaping on the
> couch with his usual coordination and grace, etc.
>
> Back to the vet and the vet immediately said the lack of coordination
> must be because of diabetes and we need more tests to get the right
> insulin dose.
>
> Does anyone know of any resources describing how diabetes could
> suddenly result in loss of coordination? This came on very quickly.
>
> Thanks
>

Phil P.
March 13th 06, 02:18 AM
"Don Taylor" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone seen information on this? I searched and can't find anything.
>
> Older cat with diabetes induced by a series of steroids from a vet.
> Figured this out, got him on appropriate insulin levels, he does ok.
> Went this way for years, seemingly perfectly happy.
>
> Then recently the vet says that the older humulin(sp?) insulin is
> no longer available for pets, switched to the newer better form.
> And we went through several rounds trying to get the dosage right,
> one test said dose was correct but urine output was still huge,
> repeat test said was way low, couldn't ever get a straight answer
> about how the first test could have given such different answers, etc.
>
> Soon afterwards we noticed Jack was "clumsy", he was slipping when
> he would put his feet on the vinyl floor, wasn't leaping on the
> couch with his usual coordination and grace, etc.
>
> Back to the vet and the vet immediately said the lack of coordination
> must be because of diabetes and we need more tests to get the right
> insulin dose.
>
> Does anyone know of any resources describing how diabetes could
> suddenly result in loss of coordination? This came on very quickly.
>
> Thanks

This might be a little complicated: Your cat's symptoms seem to indicate
hypoglycemia- probably from too much insulin. If your cat was stressed, he
could have developed stress hyperglycemia- which could have dramatically
increased his blood glucose concentrations leading your vet to the erroneous
perception that his dose needed to be increased. After your cat was home
for awhile and calmed down, his BG would have returned to his 'normal'
(diabetic) level. If your cat's new insulin dose was based on his BG
concentrations while he was experiencing stress hypoglycemia, the new dose
would be much too high for his true diabetic condition and could cause
hypoglycemia followed by the infamous Somogyi effect- a/k/a rebound
hyperglycemia-- which invariably leads to a further increase in insulin
dose- perpetuating a vicious cycle.

My advice would be to run your own glucose curve *at home* where your cat
isn't stressed, and eats his regular food at his regular times. In my
experience, home run glucose curves are invariably more accurate than GCs
run in a vet's clinic. Running a GC involves little more than monitoring
your cat's BG every 2-3 hours for one day. Monitoring blood glucose at home
is very easy; after the first few times, you'll be a pro. All you need is
an inexpensive meter, test strips and lancets. Here's a video that shows
how easy it is:
http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest%5B1%5D.mpg
http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest.rm

Did your vet check your cat's urine for ketones?

Best of luck,

Phil

dnr
March 13th 06, 07:27 AM
> This might be a little complicated: Your cat's symptoms seem to indicate
> hypoglycemia- probably from too much insulin. If your cat was stressed,
> he
> could have developed stress hyperglycemia- which could have dramatically
> increased his blood glucose concentrations leading your vet to the
> erroneous
> perception that his dose needed to be increased. After your cat was home
> for awhile and calmed down, his BG would have returned to his 'normal'
> (diabetic) level. If your cat's new insulin dose was based on his BG
> concentrations while he was experiencing stress hypoglycemia, the new dose
> would be much too high for his true diabetic condition and could cause
> hypoglycemia followed by the infamous Somogyi effect- a/k/a rebound
> hyperglycemia-- which invariably leads to a further increase in insulin
> dose- perpetuating a vicious cycle.
> My advice would be to run your own glucose curve *at home* where your cat
> isn't stressed, and eats his regular food at his regular times. In my
> experience, home run glucose curves are invariably more accurate than GCs
> run in a vet's clinic. Running a GC involves little more than monitoring
> your cat's BG every 2-3 hours for one day. Monitoring blood glucose at
> home
> is very easy; after the first few times, you'll be a pro. All you need is
> an inexpensive meter, test strips and lancets. Here's a video that shows
> how easy it is:
> http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest%5B1%5D.mpg
> http://www.maxshouse.com/bgtest.rm
> Did your vet check your cat's urine for ketones?
> Best of luck,
> Phil

Heed Phil's advice; he's very learned re cat care and diseases.
Please do what he says; write everything down.
Only thing I could possibly add to help you re the insulin:
my cat went to RB 11/89; he had been on what your vet
called "the *old* insulin" his entire 5 diabetic years (he
was diagnosed @ age 5 and died @ 10)...it was, I
always understood, from *pigs*; has been unavailable
for quite some time now. After he died, I found out
the insulin that replaced the one I had been using on him
was actually for humans, and doses out at human levels,
so math had to be done precisely for animals, like cats
and dogs.Sounds like a big PITA but I didn't have to
do it. I have no idea what type insulin they use now.
Listen to Phil, ASAP. Not a good idea to put it off.

Phil P.
March 13th 06, 01:51 PM
"dnr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Heed Phil's advice; he's very learned re cat care and diseases.
> Please do what he says; write everything down.
> Only thing I could possibly add to help you re the insulin:
> my cat went to RB 11/89; he had been on what your vet
> called "the *old* insulin" his entire 5 diabetic years (he
> was diagnosed @ age 5 and died @ 10)...it was, I
> always understood, from *pigs*; has been unavailable
> for quite some time now.


Actually an excellent beef/pork insulin for cats is still available from
IDEXX Pharmaceuticals (previously Blue Ridge Pharmaceuticals). I us PZI
with difficult to manage cats. I haven't used it in awhile because I've
been fairly successful managing diabetic cats with low-carbohydrate diets.

http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/pharmaceuticals/pzivet/


and an all-pork insulin is available from BCP Veterinary Pharmacy.

http://www.bcpvetpharm.com/


Even though BCP's PZI is closer to a cat's natural insulin than Blue Ridge,
I'd still go with Blue Ridge PZI because I think there would be less
variation from batch to batch.


After he died, I found out
> the insulin that replaced the one I had been using on him
> was actually for humans, and doses out at human levels,
> so math had to be done precisely for animals, like cats
> and dogs.Sounds like a big PITA but I didn't have to
> do it. I have no idea what type insulin they use now.
> Listen to Phil, ASAP. Not a good idea to put it off.

I'm very sorry for loss.

Phil

Larry
March 18th 06, 02:58 AM
BCP PZI is 100% beef (bovine) not pork. The BCP is also less than 1/2 the
cost of PZI Vet on a per unit basis.

--
Larry - Owned by ten cats
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>
>
> Actually an excellent beef/pork insulin for cats is still available from
> IDEXX Pharmaceuticals (previously Blue Ridge Pharmaceuticals). I us PZI
> with difficult to manage cats. I haven't used it in awhile because I've
> been fairly successful managing diabetic cats with low-carbohydrate diets.
>
> http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/pharmaceuticals/pzivet/
>
>
> and an all-pork insulin is available from BCP Veterinary Pharmacy.
>
> http://www.bcpvetpharm.com/
>
>
> Even though BCP's PZI is closer to a cat's natural insulin than Blue
Ridge,
> I'd still go with Blue Ridge PZI because I think there would be less
> variation from batch to batch.
>
> Phil

Phil P.
March 18th 06, 05:08 AM
"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> BCP PZI is 100% beef (bovine) not pork.


You're right! BCP 's PZI is a reformulation of Lilly's old Iletin which was
discontinued. Thanks for the clarification.



The BCP is also less than 1/2 the
> cost of PZI Vet on a per unit basis.


True- but BCP doesn't make large quantities- so there's a greater variation
from batch to batch. This can make regulation more difficult. I didn't
have any problems with Blue Ridge PZI when I was using it- I would imagine
quality control is even better since Idexx bought them out.

Have you tried Fancy Feast Seafood Filets Tuna & Oceanfish? I've weaned a
few cats off of insulin completely with that food.

Phil

Don Taylor
March 18th 06, 08:10 AM
"Phil P." > writes:
>"Larry" > wrote in message
...
>> BCP PZI is 100% beef (bovine) not pork.

>You're right! BCP 's PZI is a reformulation of Lilly's old Iletin which was
>discontinued. Thanks for the clarification.
....

I was the person who made the original post in this thread.

We went out and found an old pharmacist who didn't have any customers
at that time of night, had personal experience with being a diabetic,
and he was happy to describe the whole routine of using a blood glucose
meter (on humans) We told him that this was for a cat. His closing
advice was "good luck." I now think he was wise beyond his years.

We bought the thing, took it home, armed the little spring loaded
pin and tried a couple of times on Jack the cat's ear. Yes it was
poking him but not enough to really draw blood, and every time he
got more annoyed. Just to give you an idea, there is a LARGE note
in his vet chart to NOT try to touch his feet or clip his nails.
I still smile when I see the eyebrows go up when they open that
chart and see what was written there after the first person told
us that trimming his nails wouldn't be a problem, we tried to warn
her not to, she picked up his foot and she gave five nice big blood
samples for her trouble. :)

But, back to the glucose meter, we let him walk away and started
practicing on ourselves until we got the hang of this. We finally
got to the point where we could choose the right point on a finger
tip or sometimes on an arm and get enough of a drop of blood from
us for the meter to tell us that we were ok and not diabetic.

But I can't see, even with some of the descriptions on the net
about "warming his ear", etc, that the little poke is going to
draw enough blood. (When the vet did one of his two full-day
glucose tests Jack came back with little wounds along the edge
of the ear and the vet said they had a new gadget to do that,
when cats like Jack go up the wall when trying to draw blood.)

I jokingly suggested letting him see the neighbor cat. The two
of them seemed more than happy to give blood samples when he
accidentally got outside once and they met up.

But more seriously, Is taking a clean Exacto knife and making a
small slice through the edge of the ear, sort of what it looked
like the vet's "machine did", perhaps the best option for getting
a drop of blood for the meter?

At this point we would consider ourselves lucky if we got one
good clean datapoint from the meter. And I can't think that we
are going to be able to do this every day, at least not now.

>Have you tried Fancy Feast Seafood Filets Tuna & Oceanfish? I've
>weaned a few cats off of insulin completely with that food.

At this point we are trying to get one "non-frantic" blood glucose
level on him to try to tell where we are. Perhaps from there we
can decide what to do with diet and perhaps dose.

thanks for all your assistance

Rhonda
March 18th 06, 04:30 PM
Hi Don,

Glad you were able to get the meter.

Did you try talking with the people I mentioned at
www.felinediabetes.com? They know a lot of the tricks. There are also
some instructions posted there somewhere on that site. You aim for the
little blood vessel that lines the inside of the ear. It's just in from
the sides. There are also certain meters that are easier with cats.

People have said that their cat gets more used to the blood draw than
the shots.

Hope Jack is acting better and not wobbly.

Rhonda

Don Taylor wrote:

>
> We bought the thing, took it home, armed the little spring loaded
> pin and tried a couple of times on Jack the cat's ear. Yes it was
> poking him but not enough to really draw blood, and every time he
> got more annoyed.