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Ellie Bentley
March 26th 06, 06:59 PM
I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.

Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?

Miami Jones
March 26th 06, 07:31 PM
Ellie Bentley wrote:

> Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
> an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
> some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?

keep them inside till you build a pen for them, then they can play in
the pen outside
--

once you have one that gets ATTACKED by a dog, you won't think twice
about keeping them inside

Buddy
March 26th 06, 08:17 PM
Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to
stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and
letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world
will it protect itself?



You wrote:
"Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to
put
an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?
"

PawsForThought
March 26th 06, 09:27 PM
Buddy wrote:
> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to
> stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and
> letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world
> will it protect itself?

OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the
OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?

Anna via CatKB.com
March 26th 06, 09:58 PM
Ellie Bentley wrote:
>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
>that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
>avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
>all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>
>Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
>an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
>some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?

You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out
(never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get at
them).

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200603/1

March 26th 06, 10:06 PM
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Buddy wrote:
>> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to
>> stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and
>> letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world
>> will it protect itself?
>
> OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the
> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?
>

You can also get cat fence toppers - they will keep the cat from climbing
inside your yard.
(Then only birds & mice foolish enough to enter your yard - a yard with a
visible cat - are a risk.)

Google: cat +fence - will return entries for outside pens and fencing

March 26th 06, 11:02 PM
> wrote in message
t...
>
>
> You can also get cat fence toppers - they will keep the cat from climbing
> inside your yard.
> (Then only birds & mice foolish enough to enter your yard - a yard with a
> visible cat - are a risk.)
>
> Google: cat +fence - will return entries for outside pens and fencing
>

Oops - I meant climbing OUTSIDE your yard. You can find large pens - like
an outdoor dog kennel with a top - for cats also.

Ryan Robbins
March 27th 06, 12:44 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
>
> Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
> an end to their going outside and hunting.

Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to roam
around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside a half hour each day to take
your cat out.

mandyoo
March 27th 06, 01:17 AM
I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.

Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?

You could try puting a bell on her collar.

Adam Helberg
March 27th 06, 05:50 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
> avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
> all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>
> Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
> an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
> some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?
>

Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped. Although you
will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat.

Adam

March 27th 06, 06:01 AM
"Adam Helberg" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
>> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
>> avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
>> all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>>
>
> Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped.
> Although you will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat.
>
> Adam

Yep, there's a real origin to the old saying 'bell the cat'. The sound
warns of the birds no matter how good a prowler he is.

I put a bell on my kitten just to keep track of her in the house - she was
SO disgusted with me - she couldn't seek up and pounce anymore. But it gave
me piece of mind, I least I knew she was just hiding and hadn't gotten
outside.

-- maryjane

Mike
March 27th 06, 06:09 AM
Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even let
a cat outdoors unleashed.

Otherwise, you can expect the local rodent/bird population to be affected.
You're can't change a cat's killer instinct.


"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
> avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
> all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>
> Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
> an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
> some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?
>
>

Matthew AKA NMR \( NO MORE RETAIL \)
March 27th 06, 06:16 AM
Everyone of my cats have a loud bell on them with glow in the dark medals on
them so I can see the little devils at night and hear the furballs
I got two solid black cats, two tuxedoes cats, one gray cat
If I could figure out how to put a constant flashing bulb on them like the
planes have and they would not be hurt by it. I would do it in a heart beat

> wrote in message
. net...
> "Adam Helberg" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
>>> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
>>> avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
>>> all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>>>
>>
>> Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped.
>> Although you will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat.
>>
>> Adam
>
> Yep, there's a real origin to the old saying 'bell the cat'. The sound
> warns of the birds no matter how good a prowler he is.
>
> I put a bell on my kitten just to keep track of her in the house - she was
> SO disgusted with me - she couldn't seek up and pounce anymore. But it
> gave me piece of mind, I least I knew she was just hiding and hadn't
> gotten outside.
>
> -- maryjane
>

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 12:58 PM
Mike wrote:
> Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even let
> a cat outdoors unleashed.
> You can't change a cat's killer instinct.

As you say, the cat has a hunter/killer instinct which can't be changed.
This instinct is given natural fulfillment when the cat is allowed to
roam free - like his ancestors. The joy my cats exhibit when we go
outside is amazing to see. When I let them out in the mornings we then
all walk half a mile through open fields to the letter-box. They bound
along in front of me as carefree as new-born lambs. And then they bound
back up through the fields with me before we go out separate ways for
three or four hours until I call them in for their main meal (just
before twilight, so they can't vex roosting birds). I couldn't possibly
deprive them of their natural pleasure.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:05 PM
Adam Helberg wrote:
> Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped. Although you
> will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat.

It's a good idea, Adam. A year and a half ago I put a bell-collar on
each cat, just before letting them out. However, I still found them
playing with voles and birds until these creatures expired. So, I went
off to one of those craft shops and bought a packet of 10 bells and
added 5 more to each cat's collar, making 6 bells in total on each cat.
The biggest advantage of all these bells on their collars is that if the
cats are anywhere on the property I know where they are. When I call
them in for dinner, I can quickly tell which direction they are heading
from.

But as for stopping them from hunting and killing . . . they have learnt
to work with the handicap. I have seen them crouching for hours in
front of rabbit burrows, not moving a whisker, just waiting, until the
rabbit has fully emerged and then . . . bang! As the cats pounce on
their prize I think the jangling of all the bells just makes it all the
more bewildering for the poor bunny!

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:10 PM
> wrote:
> Yep, there's a real origin to the old saying 'bell the cat'. The sound
> warns of the birds no matter how good a prowler he is.

My two cats are the most intelligent I have ever owned. I managed to
teach one of them to pee and poo using on one of the two (human) toilets
in the house. The other one was too instinctual to learn how to use
the toilet, but that doesn't mean to say he isn't bright. He's
exceptional at doing what's natural to cats - while his brother can do a
number of "human" things.

They have both demonstrated the ability to learn how to work around
their six bells.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:18 PM
NO MORE RETAIL \ wrote:
> Everyone of my cats have a loud bell on them with glow in the dark medals on
> them so I can see the little devils at night and hear the furballs
> I got two solid black cats, two tuxedoes cats, one gray cat
> If I could figure out how to put a constant flashing bulb on them like the
> planes have and they would not be hurt by it. I would do it in a heart beat

We're on the same wavelength. Last summer I took the cats on a walk up
into the hills behind my house, right up to the summit. There was a lot
of bracken up there - and full of rabbits. When it was time to return
home one of the cats wouldn't reappear so I went home with his brother.
I returned several hours later . . . and boy was he pleased to see me
and come back home. To ensure this didn't happen again I bought a
couple of tiny cheap radio-controlled door-bells from Hong Kong. I hung
a chime from each cat's collar and put the two doorbells in my pocket
and off we went. The wayward one got carried away again when we got to
the summit and stayed put somewhere in the bracken - so I couldn't hear
is bells jangling. He could me calling, of course, but he was thinking,
"Oh, be quiet, don't you know this place if full of bunnies and I'm in
paradise!" I reached into my pocket pressed his doorbell button, his
chime sounded, and instantly knew where he was hiding. I strode through
the waist-high bracken for about 30 yards and there he was, crouched
beside a burrow.

I understand your thinking behind the flashing bulb!

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:19 PM
mandyoo wrote:
> You could try puting a bell on her collar.

Done that, see above - they have six bells each.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:29 PM
Ryan Robbins wrote:
> Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to roam
> around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside a half hour each day to take
> your cat out.

I used to live in a high-rise apartment in a city in the desert where
they were hundreds of stray and unwanted cats. I figured a life stuck
up in my apartment all day was better for my two cats than the life they
had been living down in the rubbish bins and alleyways. But now I live
in the middle of the countryside a long way from the nearest road and
surrounded by trees and streams and birds and many forms of wildlife.
The joy my two cats express when we go out in all this is wonderful to
behold. They run unfettered across fields - as swift as arrows and as
fast as any dogs. They are supremely healthy as a result of this, very
muscular - particularly in their hind legs.

We did the leash thing for an hour each day when they were kittens and
could easily have got lost and been unable to fen for themselves. I
should add that now they don't get into trouble themselves. They are
tough hardy cats when they are outside. The reason for my question is
that it would be better, I think, if there were some way to stop them
ruthlessly killing every living creature they can lay their paws on
while at the same time allowing them the joy of freedom in the wild
outdoors.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:31 PM
Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
> You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out
> (never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get at
> them).

The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other
suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 01:37 PM
Buddy wrote:
> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to
> stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and
> letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world
> will it protect itself?

Please note that I have not muzzled my cats and am not intending to. I
have only mentioned muzzling to get some creative ideas rolling.

Saying that putting a muzzle on a cat IS "giving it a death sentence"
might be a bit strong, don't you think? After all, it depends on the
circumstances. It COULD be a death sentence in a CERTAIN circumstance
perhaps. On the other hand, other factors would need to be kept in
mind. Cats have claws and they certainly know how to use them when
confronted. They also have well developed legs and know to use them
when it is best to get to hell away from an enemy. Dogs are often
muzzled and, what is more, there are different kinds of muzzles. Some
muzzles allows creatures to open their mouths and pant . . . but not to
be able to bite.

deci
March 27th 06, 04:01 PM
On 27 Mar 2006 13:15:10 GMT, Brandy Alexandre
> wrote:


>Get used to the idea that they're cats and just like it's natural to
>run free, it's natural for them to hunt and kill. It's what cats do.

Have to agree with you there Brandy - We may not like what they do,
but isn't that 'wildness' why we love them?


http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/

"A cat is only technically an animal,
being divine" - Robert Lynd

deci
March 27th 06, 04:06 PM
On 27 Mar 2006 13:13:33 GMT, Brandy Alexandre
> wrote:


>What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small
>branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar.

With you totally there.

>Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are
>what it it really using as a defense.

Hmmm...... Can't really see a dog being threatened by the size of a
cats fangs, but a cats strike with its claws is upto seven times
faster than a dogs jaws (Courtesy of Dr. Bruce Fogel). Most dogs like
their snouts unbloodied. ;)




http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/

"A cat is only technically an animal,
being divine" - Robert Lynd

---MIKE---
March 27th 06, 05:54 PM
Matthew wrote-

>If I could figure out how to put a constant
> flashing bulb on them like the planes
> have and they would not be hurt by it. I
> would do it in a heart beat.

There are mini circuits available to activate a flashing LED using a
button battery (you have probably seen them in the super market aisles
for advertising). They could be attached to a cat's collar and would
not add much weight.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Toni
March 27th 06, 07:01 PM
"Brandy Alexandre" > wrote in message >
> What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small
> branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar.
> Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are
> what it it really using as a defense.
>


IMO it wouldn't ever come to that- most animals will nearly tear their face
up trying to get a muzzle *off*. I am a very long time groomer and would
never ever advocate leaving a muzzle on any animal when it is not attended.
They can literally become frenzied and half the time get their front paws
tangled up in it as well.

*And* FWIW - all cat muzles I recall ever having seen cover the eyes as
well. Not much use at all beyond actual hands on procedures.


--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com

Matthew AKA NMR \( NO MORE RETAIL \)
March 27th 06, 07:04 PM
Mike Ii would just worry about possible heat causing a burn plus battery
life

"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Matthew wrote-

>If I could figure out how to put a constant
> flashing bulb on them like the planes
> have and they would not be hurt by it. I
> would do it in a heart beat.

There are mini circuits available to activate a flashing LED using a
button battery (you have probably seen them in the super market aisles
for advertising). They could be attached to a cat's collar and would
not add much weight.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 07:27 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small
> branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar.
> Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are
> what it it really using as a defense.

OK. Thanks for this. Well, every nine days my cats have all their
claws trimmed. This has been the case since they were kittens. Hence
when inside they play with other with complete abandon, wrestling and
"fighting", knowing they can never hurt each other. But the main point
is: they climb very few trees, and those they can climb must have
branches very close to the ground, and they don't get far up. If they
were to get hooked on a branch and they had muzzles on, I expect they'ld
get free of them as well as they get their collars free of them. As
for skirmishes with other animals, there have been one or two, but they
have never got to the teeth stage. There's usually just a lot of
growling and posturing, and then maybe, if things go too far, some
hissing followed by some claw-work!

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 07:32 PM
Toni wrote:
> I am a very long time groomer and would
> never ever advocate leaving a muzzle on any animal when it is not attended.
> They can literally become frenzied and half the time get their front paws
> tangled up in it as well.
> *And* FWIW - all cat muzles I recall ever having seen cover the eyes as
> well. Not much use at all beyond actual hands on procedures.

One member here has sent me a private message directing me to a site
selling "cat muzzles" and, as you say, they don't allow sight, in fact
they almost completely surround the entire face, being the shape of a
cone, with a hole at the end to allow air in for breathing. Well,
clearly that's a cat-grooming muzzle . . . and there don't seem to be
any simple strap-like muzzles designed purely to stop the cat opening
its mouth fully. There could well be an opportunity here for the
entrepreneur. I see an eminent politician has called for all cats which
are allowed outside to be appropriately muzzled, because, he says, they
are severely detrimental to wildlife and the survival of vulnerable
species.

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 07:36 PM
deci wrote:
> Hmmm...... Can't really see a dog being threatened by the size of a
> cats fangs, but a cats strike with its claws is upto seven times
> faster than a dogs jaws (Courtesy of Dr. Bruce Fogel). Most dogs like
> their snouts unbloodied. ;)

Having been attacked when cat-sitting the very very bad-tempered cat of
a neighbour . . . I totally agree. I'm quick and pretty nimble but
every time that bad-tempered little b**** of a cat has decided to rebuke
my offer to stroke her or play with her she has flung out a paw and
ripped the finest line of blood through my chin or down my cheek. (I
reckon she's riddle with parasites, but her owners refuse to go near a
vet and pay out for a de-worming tablet!)

Ellie Bentley
March 27th 06, 07:40 PM
PawsForThought wrote:
> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?

An enclosure. Hmmm. Well, it would have to be a mighty big one for my
two not to consider it a cage. At the moment they go out at 11.30am and
come back in for dinner at 4.30pm and then they happily stay inside
until 11.30 the next day. All through that time they are "caged", from
their point of view. The thrill of going out, for them, is clearly the
thrill of being truly free. I can see what you are getting at but I
would still prefer to let them roam naturally, satisfying their
inexhaustible curiosity etc., but if there were some device that would
stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there
is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet!

PawsForThought
March 27th 06, 08:16 PM
Ellie Bentley wrote:
> PawsForThought wrote:
> > OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?
>
> An enclosure. Hmmm. Well, it would have to be a mighty big one for my
> two not to consider it a cage. At the moment they go out at 11.30am and
> come back in for dinner at 4.30pm and then they happily stay inside
> until 11.30 the next day. All through that time they are "caged", from
> their point of view. The thrill of going out, for them, is clearly the
> thrill of being truly free. I can see what you are getting at but I
> would still prefer to let them roam naturally, satisfying their
> inexhaustible curiosity etc., but if there were some device that would
> stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there
> is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet!

I know cats really enjoy being outside, but if you're concerned about
them killing, they are only doing what comes naturally to them. I
can't let my cats outside alone. There's just too many dangers where I
live including cars, dogs, racoons, etc. Oh, and fortunately not in my
city, but a few cities away there is some sick individual who is
killing animals. It was in the newspaper today and it was really
gruesome :(
So I keep my cats inside, they have a couple of cat trees, and they get
lots of attention and play time. Sure, it would be nice from their
point of view to be outside, but I've already lost a cat to a predator
outdoors. That's why I suggested the enclosure. I've seen some really
nice ones, and you can put in cat trees and other things to make it fun
for them.

Lauren

March 27th 06, 08:16 PM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> PawsForThought wrote:
>> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?
>
> An enclosure. Hmmm. Well, it would have to be a mighty big one for my
> two not to consider it a cage. At the moment they go out at 11.30am and
> come back in for dinner at 4.30pm and then they happily stay inside
> until 11.30 the next day. All through that time they are "caged", from
> their point of view. The thrill of going out, for them, is clearly the
> thrill of being truly free. I can see what you are getting at but I
> would still prefer to let them roam naturally, satisfying their
> inexhaustible curiosity etc., but if there were some device that would
> stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there
> is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet!
>
>

Okay - have you tried putting bells on their collars so the birds, mice and
voles have a little warning.?

Other than keeping the cats confined inside, or in an outside pen there is
no absolute way to keep them from killing. That's what cats are designed to
do. And I can just imagine how badly my cats would scratch me if I tried to
muzzle them.

If you live in the country, be happy the kitties are helping to keep the
mouse population down (Field mice can reproduce every 30 days if there's
enough food.) The birds just need to be careful.
(Believe me most of the birds know your cats are around and are very
careful!)

So you have to make a choice - is the pleasure my cats get from going
outdoors more important to me than the number of mice/birds they are
killing. If you want to protect the wildlife and let the kitties outside,
enclosures/pens are pretty much the only sure way.

Some Examples.

Check out this outside pen - its enormous and you can build it yourself:
http://www.just4cats.com/
http://www.just4cats.com/post1.html

http://www.purrfectfence.com/ cat proof fences
http://www.petsnap.com/menu-nav/cat-enclosuresandfencesSBC1.htm?=AW&AG=cat-fence -
smaller pens

Matthew AKA NMR \( NO MORE RETAIL \)
March 28th 06, 01:39 AM
They are going to hate me :-) but no more hiding in the dark just got to
remember what it is when I have one eye open at 4 am
"---MIKE---" > wrote in message
...
Matthew wrote:

>Mike Ii would just worry about possible
> heat causing a burn plus battery life

A device like that would not get hot and it would use very little power
- batteries should last a long time.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 04:37 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> Mike wrote:
>> Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even
>> let
>> a cat outdoors unleashed.
>> You can't change a cat's killer instinct.
>
> As you say, the cat has a hunter/killer instinct which can't be changed.
> This instinct is given natural fulfillment when the cat is allowed to
> roam free - like his ancestors.... I couldn't possibly
> deprive them of their natural pleasure.

Buy a harness and a leash and set some time aside to take your cats out.
Otherwise, don't be surprised if one day a cat doesn't come home.

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 04:39 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> Ryan Robbins wrote:
>> Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to
>> roam
>> around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside a half hour each day to
>> take
>> your cat out.
>
> We did the leash thing for an hour each day when they were kittens and
> could easily have got lost and been unable to fen for themselves. I
> should add that now they don't get into trouble themselves. They are
> tough hardy cats when they are outside.

A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun.

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 10:21 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> Anna via CatKB.com wrote:
>> You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out
>> (never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get
>> at
>> them).
>
> The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other
> suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them.

Why are they not an option?

deci
March 28th 06, 02:36 PM
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:39:24 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"
> wrote:

>A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun.
>
Neither am I, my daughter or my wife - So should we all stay in or
wear leashes?


http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/

"A cat is only technically an animal,
being divine" - Robert Lynd

Cat Protector
March 28th 06, 05:21 PM
How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad
suggestion of muzzling a cat?

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"PawsForThought" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Buddy wrote:
>> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to
>> stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and
>> letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world
>> will it protect itself?
>
> OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the
> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?
>

Rhino
March 28th 06, 06:47 PM
> wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
> ...
>> PawsForThought wrote:
>>> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats?
>>
>> An enclosure. Hmmm. Well, it would have to be a mighty big one for my
>> two not to consider it a cage. At the moment they go out at 11.30am and
>> come back in for dinner at 4.30pm and then they happily stay inside
>> until 11.30 the next day. All through that time they are "caged", from
>> their point of view. The thrill of going out, for them, is clearly the
>> thrill of being truly free. I can see what you are getting at but I
>> would still prefer to let them roam naturally, satisfying their
>> inexhaustible curiosity etc., but if there were some device that would
>> stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there
>> is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet!
>>
>>
>
> Okay - have you tried putting bells on their collars so the birds, mice
> and voles have a little warning.?
>

Even a bell might not be much help. One of my friends told me about a cat
that had a bell on its neck to give the family canary warning that it was
coming and how it defeated the bell: the cat swung its neck in such a way
that it could grab the bell in its mouth, which had the effect of silencing
the bell. Then it was able to sneak up on the canary.

Now, it's a long time ago that she told me this so I don't recall if this
was something she saw with her own eyes or if it was something she was told
by someone else who claimed to have seen it. I would be more inclined to
believe something that someone had seen themselves. But it does sound like
something a smart cat could do.

--
Rhino

Alison
March 28th 06, 07:01 PM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind
> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them
> avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them
> all waiting for me on the kitchen floor.
>
> Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put
> an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of
> some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?>>

Sonic collars can reduce the number of prey caught by cats, especially
birds.
They are recommended by the Feline Advisory Bureau (UK).
--
Alison
http://catinfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
http://doginfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/

Alison
March 28th 06, 07:05 PM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> Buddy wrote:
>> Please note that I have not muzzled my cats and am not intending to. I
> have only mentioned muzzling to get some creative ideas rolling.
>
> Saying that putting a muzzle on a cat IS "giving it a death sentence"
> might be a bit strong, don't you think? After all, it depends on the
> circumstances. It COULD be a death sentence in a CERTAIN circumstance
> perhaps. On the other hand, other factors would need to be kept in
> mind. Cats have claws and they certainly know how to use them when
> confronted. They also have well developed legs and know to use them
> when it is best to get to hell away from an enemy. Dogs are often
> muzzled and, what is more, there are different kinds of muzzles. Some
> muzzles allows creatures to open their mouths and pant . . . but not to
> be able to bite.>>.

But dogs are never supposed to be left unattended with a muzzle on . If a
cat was sick it could choke.
Alison

Ellie Bentley
March 28th 06, 07:46 PM
Alison wrote:
> Sonic collars can reduce the number of prey caught by cats, especially
> birds.
> They are recommended by the Feline Advisory Bureau (UK).

Alison, THANKS VERY MUCH. This is a move in the right direction. I
shall go and google and find out about them.

Ellie.

Ellie Bentley
March 28th 06, 07:50 PM
> >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun.

Justin L wrote:
> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher?
>
> people that fish?
>
> are fishers big cat killers??
>
> They seem like such a peaceful bunch..

Justin, thanks for asking the question. It had me stumped too. In my
part of the world we don't know this word "fisher". (Fishermen,
kingfishers, fissures, yes.)

Ryan, please enlighten us.

Ellie Bentley
March 28th 06, 07:56 PM
> > The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other
> > suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them.

Ryan Robbins wrote:
> Why are they not an option?

I moved to a very sparsely populated area of countryside full of fields,
woods, forests, streams, and waterfalls. It's paradise for human AND
cats (and dogs, and all other creatures who love to roam free). The
cats delight in this countryside as much as we do. Each morning when we
walk the half-mile down the hillside through the fields to collect the
mail from the nearest road the cats bound along with us, playing tag,
ambushing each other, all the way there and all the way back. You only
have to see their joy in this freedom to play to understand why they
would hate the harness and leash. If we were living in the centre of a
city, or even a town, I might well be inclined to use the harness and
leash. (I did, many years ago, when I lived in a high-rise.)

I hope you understand.

Ellie Bentley
March 28th 06, 07:58 PM
Cat Protector wrote:
> How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad
> suggestion of muzzling a cat?

Oh, come on. Freedom of Thought, Freedom of Hypothesis, Freedom of
Imagination: these are vital. Otherwise we would never have got man
upon the moon! How do you think the Sonic Collar came to be invented?

mlbriggs
March 28th 06, 08:05 PM
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:50:27 +0100, Ellie Bentley wrote:

>> >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun.
>
> Justin L wrote:
>> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher?
>>
>> people that fish?
>>
>> are fishers big cat killers??
>>
>> They seem like such a peaceful bunch..
>
> Justin, thanks for asking the question. It had me stumped too. In my
> part of the world we don't know this word "fisher". (Fishermen,
> kingfishers, fissures, yes.)
>
> Ryan, please enlighten us.


A type of weasel. MLB

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 09:35 PM
<deci> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:39:24 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"
> > wrote:
>
>>A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun.
>>
> Neither am I, my daughter or my wife - So should we all stay in or
> wear leashes?

We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are.

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 09:36 PM
"Justin L" > wrote in message
...
>
> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher?
>
> people that fish?
>
> are fishers big cat killers??
>
> They seem like such a peaceful bunch..

It is a wild animal that is known to prey on cats. It's a rather nasty
animal, actually.

March 28th 06, 09:59 PM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> Cat Protector wrote:
>> How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad
>> suggestion of muzzling a cat?
>
> Oh, come on. Freedom of Thought, Freedom of Hypothesis, Freedom of
> Imagination: these are vital. Otherwise we would never have got man
> upon the moon! How do you think the Sonic Collar came to be invented?
>

Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad your
cats (and family!!) have such a nice place to play outside.

Bells are still a possibility. I have a couple of cats who would never
figure out how to keep the bells silent.

The bells or sonic collars probably won't prevent all killings, but if they
reduce the number significantly you should be pleased.

(But remember, there are lots more mice where those came from. If you've
ever had a mouse infested house, you wouldn't mind having the cats kill
them. My kitty is scared of mice - if they move too fast she runs away!!
Her mother obviously didn't have time to teach her to be a good mouser.
Birds I would feel bad about, but cats have a lot harder time catching
them.)

-- maryjane

March 28th 06, 10:00 PM
Ah, makes sense. We thought you had crazy cat killing fishermen around.

"mlbriggs" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:50:27 +0100, Ellie Bentley wrote:
>
>>> >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a
>>> >gun.
>>
>> Justin L wrote:
>>> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher?
>>>
>>> people that fish?
>>>
>>> are fishers big cat killers??
>>>
>>> They seem like such a peaceful bunch..
>>
>> Justin, thanks for asking the question. It had me stumped too. In my
>> part of the world we don't know this word "fisher". (Fishermen,
>> kingfishers, fissures, yes.)
>>
>> Ryan, please enlighten us.
>
>
> A type of weasel. MLB
>

March 28th 06, 10:03 PM
"Ryan Robbins" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Justin L" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher?
>>
>> people that fish?
>>
>> are fishers big cat killers??
>>
>> They seem like such a peaceful bunch..
>
> It is a wild animal that is known to prey on cats. It's a rather nasty
> animal, actually.
>

Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for killing
cats and small dogs. One good reason to keep pets indoors if you know they
live in your area.

Of course, they leave larger dogs alone.

-- maryjane

Ryan Robbins
March 28th 06, 11:53 PM
A fisher is larger than the average size domestic cat, with males up to 25
inches long and weighing up to 15 pounds. It will kill and eat just about
anything it can get its teeth in, including porcupines.

Ryan Robbins
March 29th 06, 12:04 AM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
>> > The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any
>> > other
>> > suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them.
>
> Ryan Robbins wrote:
>> Why are they not an option?
>
> I moved to a very sparsely populated area of countryside full of fields,
> woods, forests, streams, and waterfalls. It's paradise for human AND
> cats (and dogs, and all other creatures who love to roam free). The
> cats delight in this countryside as much as we do. Each morning when we
> walk the half-mile down the hillside through the fields to collect the
> mail from the nearest road the cats bound along with us, playing tag,
> ambushing each other, all the way there and all the way back. You only
> have to see their joy in this freedom to play to understand why they
> would hate the harness and leash. If we were living in the centre of a
> city, or even a town, I might well be inclined to use the harness and
> leash. (I did, many years ago, when I lived in a high-rise.)
>
> I hope you understand.

I think it is you who doesn't understand. In a perfect world, yeah, we could
let our kitties and our doggies outdoors without fences and leashes and
runs. But we do not live in a perfect world. Domestic cats are not
well-equipped mentally or even physically to survive in the wild. This is
because we humans bred them specifically to be immature and cute and cuddly.
These attributes do not fare well at all in the wild.

You are doing your cats a great disservice by forcing them to fend for
themselves against other cats, motor vehicles, pranksters, wild animals, and
the elements. It is naive to think that your cats will have a better life if
forced to fend for themselves. They won't care whether they are in your
house 24 hours a day. My cat joined my family as a stray. She adapted
perfectly to becoming an indoor cat, and she adapted perfectly to going
outdoors in a harness and on a leash.

I can't say the same for the cat I found dead in the street a year and a
half ago, the blood still fresh on the pavement. Or the cat I rushed to a
vet hospital after a car crushed its abdomen irreparably. Or the two stray
cats my family gave food to when we lived in the country but were never seen
again. Both of those cats used to emerge from the woods with open wounds.

deci
March 29th 06, 12:23 AM
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:35:47 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"
> wrote:
>
>We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are.
>
So. there is no gun crime or deaths on the road where you live? I bet
the property prices are astronomical.
No matter how intelligent you claim humans are - nobody can predict
the criminal mind or lousy driving.


http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/

"A cat is only technically an animal,
being divine" - Robert Lynd

Ryan Robbins
March 29th 06, 05:03 AM
<deci> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:35:47 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"
> > wrote:
>>
>>We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are.
>>
> So. there is no gun crime or deaths on the road where you live? I bet
> the property prices are astronomical.

I live in Maine. Life is good.

> No matter how intelligent you claim humans are - nobody can predict
> the criminal mind or lousy driving.

What does this have to do with cats not being able to fend for themselves as
well as humans?

Ellie Bentley
March 29th 06, 09:53 AM
> wrote:
> Ah, makes sense. We thought you had crazy cat killing fishermen around.

Eeeeeek. Nasty-looking things those fishers. A creature I had never
heard of. Thank heavens we don't have any in my area. The closest
enemy of cats we have is the mink. They got loose from some mink-farm
project that somebody started in a nearby valley.

Anyway, pics of the evil-looking fisher can be seen at:
www.mass.gov/dfwele/ dfw/dfw_fisher.htm

Ellie.

Ellie Bentley
March 29th 06, 10:14 AM
Ryan Robbins wrote:
> This is
> because we humans bred them specifically to be immature and cute and cuddly.
> These attributes do not fare well at all in the wild.

You are right on this. However, my cats are not JUST "cute and cuddly".
The come from a line that have lived in these hills of centuries. They
are tough and they are hardy. They could survive out there very easily
without us. There is an abundance of prey out there for them to survive
upon. My cats fare exceptionally well in the wild. They thrive on it.

> You are doing your cats a great disservice by forcing them to fend for
> themselves against other cats, motor vehicles, pranksters, wild animals, and
> the elements.

I have not said or implied that I "force my cats to fend for
themselves"! I have not said that they ever meet any other cats. (In
fact, there is only 1 other cat within a two-mile radius and she is an
old thing that stays mainly indoors.) I have said that my cats live in
a house which is half a mile from the nearest road. That road is also a
quiet country road with little traffic. I have not given you any
indication that there are pranksters in these hills. In fact, I have
lived here a good number of years and have never heard that there have
ever been pranksters around here.

I would suggest that my cats are more likely to get themselves out of
fixes than any five-year-old might find him/herself in in the
countryside and I hope you would not advocate that children should never
be let out of the house because of what MIGHT happen to them. A little
bubble-wrap is comfortable: a LIFE lived entirely in bubble-wrap is no
life at all.

> They won't care whether they are in your
> house 24 hours a day.

You don't know my cats. When they wake up in the morning and look out
the windows and see the green grass sparkling in the sunlight they race
around trying to lure us to the backdoor so they can get out there and
enjoy it. When they wake up, look outside, and see it is grey, gloomy,
and rainy, then yes, they shut their eyes, sleep in, and aren't
particularly keen to go outside. They still do though. And for a
reason which you should find very interesting. My cats have ample
litter trays available to them indoors at all times. However, due to
the good discipline in this house, i.e. they KNOW they will be allowed
out between 11.30am and 4.30pm they actually HOLD their poo for this
period. They also try to hold their pee for this period too, though if
they can't then they will pee in the litter trays. In other words, my
cats WANT to go outside each day, find a secret place, well away from
the house, usually in the middle of an adjacent field and poo there.
They do this although they could quite easily use the litter trays
indoors. Some days there is nothing in the litter trays to clean out.

My point remains. Is there a way to lessen the killing which my superb
little killers inflict on the wildlife around my house. It seems that
at least the people at Willana Life-Sciences are addressing this problem
and working towards answering the need - though there is clearly a long
way to go yet. Their current Sonic Collar lessens predation on birds,
but has no effect on mammals. But I am sure that with time and
imagination they will sort that out too.

See:
http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk

Ellie Bentley
March 29th 06, 10:24 AM
> wrote:
> Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad your
> cats (and family!!) have such a nice place to play outside.

Hi MaryJane. I've booked marked
http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk
and will be watching them in the next few years.

Because my cats have got six bells each on each of their collars AND I
trim their claws they don't actually manage to kill too many birds. And
yes I take your point about the advantages of keeping down the mouse,
vole, and rabbit populations. It's a case of balancing this against the
discomfort the cats feel once they have swallowed several voles whole,
or even a baby rabbit. Some time ago I had to pull a baby rabbit out
of one of the cat's mouth by the rabbit's back legs! (The vet explained
they prefer to eat them from the head first so the far doesn't rub the
top of their mouths "against the grain"!) About six months ago one of
the cats slept for three days with a very big belly, which I suspected
was full of rabbit. (Snakes do this, don't they, once they have gorged
on prey.) Anyway, when he eventually "woke up", what did he do?
Immediately threw up quite a large parcel of rabbit fur and bones,
including teeth, skull, etc! It appeared that during those three days
everything else of the rabbit had been efficiently digested. I know
cats are completely carnivore and their systems are quite unlike ours
and maybe this is just the way they are so maybe I should simply adapt
to this behaviour! (Maybe even I lean a little bit towards wanting to
think that my cats are nothing but cute and cuddly little balls of
heaven!)

> Bells are still a possibility. I have a couple of cats who would never
> figure out how to keep the bells silent.

Let's not introduce your cats to mine then. They'ld be a BAD influence,
perhaps! :-) ("Hey, guys, THIS is how ya do it!")

Ellie.

March 29th 06, 01:27 PM
"Ellie Bentley" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>> Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad
>> your
>> cats (and family!!) have such a nice place to play outside.
>
> Hi MaryJane. I've booked marked
> http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk
> and will be watching them in the next few years.
>
> Because my cats have got six bells each on each of their collars AND I
> trim their claws they don't actually manage to kill too many birds. And
> yes I take your point about the advantages of keeping down the mouse,
> vole, and rabbit populations. It's a case of balancing this against the
> discomfort the cats feel once they have swallowed several voles whole,
> or even a baby rabbit. Some time ago I had to pull a baby rabbit out
> of one of the cat's mouth by the rabbit's back legs! (The vet explained
> they prefer to eat them from the head first so the far doesn't rub the
> top of their mouths "against the grain"!) ..... I know
> cats are completely carnivore and their systems are quite unlike ours
> and maybe this is just the way they are so maybe I should simply adapt
> to this behaviour! (Maybe even I lean a little bit towards wanting to
> think that my cats are nothing but cute and cuddly little balls of
> heaven!)
>
> Let's not introduce your cats to mine then. They'ld be a BAD influence,
> perhaps! :-) ("Hey, guys, THIS is how ya do it!")
>
> Ellie.

Very talented and graceful cats.

Could they teach my cats to be 'buggers" (ooo that sounds bad ;) )?. I
don't have mice in my current apt but could use some dedicated insect
hunters.... Oh well, back to the Raid. I felt so sorry for the mice dying
in the traps, would have preferred a clean kill by the cats. They now sell
mouse traps which are trays filled with invisible glue with food scent.
Mouse climbs in - never climbs out - dies of thirst/dehydration. (Always
made me feel guilty - old fashion traps are much quicker - but a lot of mice
get wise to them. I caught a few under bowls and carried far out into
field. You can tell I had pet mice as a child.)

Actually, if anyone has cats eating is spiders you REALLY need to discourage
this behavoir. My best friend's cat loved to catch/eat spiders. Until one
day she caught a very poisonous one and it must have bitten her while in the
mouth. Poor kitty had terrible seizures for 30 minutes, then stopped
breathing 5 minutes before we could get her to the vet. I'm not sure the vet
could have helped anyway - don't think they stock spider antivenin.

This is a very unusual accident, but it can happen if you live where
poisonous spiders are common. A human could probably have tolerated that
spider's bite with just bad swelling around the bite, but small cats don't
need much of a venom dose.

By the way, I did learn afterwards its possible to perform CPR on dogs/cats.
(Check out web sites.) I don't know if I could do the heart massage, but
you blow in their noses to provied artificial respiration.

Anyway - crickets. lizards and other insects are okay. Spiders (including
house spiders) BAD!

-- maryjane

Ellie Bentley
March 29th 06, 07:36 PM
> wrote:
> Could they teach my cats to be 'buggers" (ooo that sounds bad ;) )?.

Hmmm. I think they would. On the other hand, you might like the drama
of it. I was working in the vegetable garden this afternoon and I
looked up to spot my ginger cat running down the hill behind the house
with something large in his mouth. As he approached the fence he
paused. I called his name encouragingly and he leapt over the fence
with the rabbit (dead) still in his mouth and brought it to me. I
decided to "go with it" and gave him much praise and stroking and
biscuits (which I always keep loose in my right pocket). One less bunny
to nibble on my vegetables, at least. It was then a matter of
distracting the cat while I disappeared, a bit like you with your dead
mice, into a field on the side, to find a tree where I could lay the
rabbit for the owls, crows, and birds of prey.

> Mouse climbs in - never climbs out - dies of thirst/dehydration. (Always
> made me feel guilty - old fashion traps are much quicker - but a lot of mice
> get wise to them.

Yup, I used a "humane trap" too for a while. Then I found these cheap
new mouse-traps which look a bit like bull-dog clips. All rounded and
not looking at all lethal . . . but, my God, they are! A bit like yours
they come with a pad of something that mice can't resist. I snapped up
six of these traps and they are always on the go. I've often wondered
what I could save on cat-food if I had one of those old-fashioned
turn-handle meat-mincers: I could just drop the night's mouse-catch in
every morning and that would several days of nutritious food for the
cats . . . and I am sure it would be more comfortable for them to digest
than the mice and voles and baby bubbies they devour whole!

> Actually, if anyone has cats eating is spiders you REALLY need to discourage
> this behavoir. My best friend's cat loved to catch/eat spiders.

Thanks for this advice. Up until reading this I've often thought,
"Great! This old house was always full of spiders before the boys
arrived but I haven't seen any since they moved in!" They ARE gobbling
them down. Flies too which we can get hundreds of during the summer.
Yes, after I've seen them doing this I do pause a bit before I let them
come snogging me while I'm watching television or sitting reading.

> By the way, I did learn afterwards its possible to perform CPR on dogs/cats.
> (Check out web sites.) I don't know if I could do the heart massage, but
> you blow in their noses to provied artificial respiration.

Blowing up my pussies' noses! Eeeek! (Especially after they've been
you-know-where!) But I'll certainly remember this, Mary Jane, and brace
myself if ever it's needed!

Thanks for all the advice.

Ellie.

Ellie Bentley
March 29th 06, 07:42 PM
Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> Whatever happened to the good old cat bell on the collar?

Hi Brandy. Well, out of all these responses it's become pretty clear
that, yes, a bell works on some cats, and perhaps more than just ONE
bell works on some cats, but on my two, at least, which EACH have SIX
bells on their collars, it's just not enough. Actually, newly hatched
birds are so curious and unaware that cats equal danger that I don't
think two dozen bells would get them to make themselves scarce before
the pounce of the cat! And baby bunnies really do seem to be utterly
innocent: they're not genetically programmed to recognise bells as
meaning "Get back down that burrow and QUICK!"

Unfortunately for them.

And fortunately for my cats . . . which are currently obsessed with the
first baby bunnies of spring and rush off to where they know there are
burrows the moment I let them out the door!

Ellie.

deci
March 29th 06, 08:47 PM
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 04:03:55 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"
> wrote:
>>>
>I live in Maine. Life is good.
Mmmmm... 103 murders 2001-5 (inc)
207 Road Fatalataties in 2003 of which 49 where out of the vehicle

You're not getting your moneys worth

>What does this have to do with cats not being able to fend for themselves as
>well as humans?
>
Now you might be Clark Kent, but I doubt it. In which case I cannot
see you being able to dodge a bullet or fend off a large lump of metal
going at any speed at all, particularly if driven by a drunk or drud
abuser


http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/

"A cat is only technically an animal,
being divine" - Robert Lynd

Linda Terrell
April 13th 06, 08:28 AM
>
> Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for killing
> cats and small dogs. One good reason to keep pets indoors if you know they
> live in your area.
>
> Of course, they leave larger dogs alone.
>
> -- maryjane

Actually, coyotes will attack a big dog in a group.

LT

April 13th 06, 04:02 PM
"Linda Terrell" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for
>> killing
>> cats and small dogs. One good reason to keep pets indoors if you know
>> they
>> live in your area.
>>
>> Of course, they leave larger dogs alone.
>>
>> -- maryjane
>
> Actually, coyotes will attack a big dog in a group.
>
> LT

They'll go after toddlers too given the right opportunity. I don't remember
any little ones getting killed - but after all they are wild animals. Very
small children are near they're normal prey size. If the coyotes have
become so acclimatized to humans as to loose fear of us - watch out. Feral
abandoned dogs can be even worse - they don't fear people, have often been
abused by humans and can become quite vicious.

(On my cousin's ranch the wild dog packs are the one's killing sheep and
goats. He invites his deer lease holders out a few times a year to hunt
down the packs. Unfortunately, these abandoned dogs are too dangerous to be
salvaged by any shelter.)

-- maryjane