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July 3rd 06, 12:22 AM
Hi

I have two cats, who have just turned a year old. One is ginger and
male (Tayla), the other black and female(Jet). Over the last few
weeks, Jet has started too become harder and harder to get in a night,
which has resulted in both of them being out all night, as they're very
close and I couldnt keep Tayla in whilst his sister is out. I dont
mind the occasional 'all nighter' but I do prefer them in at night.
Jets refusal to come is now getting 'worse' and I'm lucky if she comes
in the house at all over say, two days- it all seems like a game to
her, she comes near, then runs off and I dont see her for hours before
the whole thing repeats again. I am getting very concerned as she also
turns up her nose at whatever food I put down for her, and although she
nibbles biscuits occassionally (which I'm now started to leave outside)
and she is literally started to look very thin. She also seems to be
going timid, ie jumping at the slightest noise, which is why I want her
in, as something has obviously frightened her.

Tayla is a real home boy and mummies boy, and is very obedient, but he
is very slowly starting to emulate his sisters behaviour, though he
does eat very very well, so I'm not concerned there. I konw the weather
is very hot, so maybe I'm being paranoid, and they are only milling
around in the garden or in the bushes at the back of the house, but I'm
very concerned that they're going to be out all of the time. Although
Jet is the main problem, they are very very close, and rarely without
each other - though Jet is unphased if she is out and Tayla in, she
knows if she is patient, Tayla will be back out with her at some point!

I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
(or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
idea on what I can do?

Many thanks in advance

July 3rd 06, 01:55 AM
Hi,

The cats should definitely be indoors at night - that's important - and
I'm glad that you are doing that. But you do have to face the fact that
you are going against their natural instincts, which tell them they are
safer at night when nothing can see them!

Plus you have teenage cats, and like teenagers everywhere, they don't
like curfews :>

But you are the boss here and you have to enforce the rules, otherwise
there won't be any. Change the rules so they get fed in the evening
after they BOTH come in (and not until then). Do not feed them outside
- they live inside with you - not in the yard - and you have to be
clear about that.

Decide on a time that is curfew. It's okay to give in to daylight
savings time and make it an hour later in the summer, but otherwise
hold fast on curfew. Call them a couple of times, bring inside
whichever cat comes, and then (hard as it is), close the door. It will
drive you crazy, but a rule isn't a rule unless it is enforced.
Recalcitrant cat will act like they don't care, but after a night
outside w/o food, it will get mightly sick of the whole thing by dawn.
Then do the same thing the next night at exactly the same time. If
you're softhearted, you can occasionally open the door and see if the
late stayer wants to take advantage of the opportunity to sccot
indoors, but don't do it too often or the point will be lost. Basically
you have to make it clear that curfew is curfew, and that food, treats,
love and play will come to them if they come inside for the night at
the right time. Don't chase the cat around outdoors, just establish the
rules and uphold them.

And before everybody else says it, - yes cats are safer indoors all the
time. But if you are going to take indoor/outdoor route, then cat
curfew is a good thing to have in place. It takes some work to
establish at first, but should work pretty much like clockwork once the
pattern is established.


wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have two cats, who have just turned a year old. One is ginger and
> male (Tayla), the other black and female(Jet). Over the last few
> weeks, Jet has started too become harder and harder to get in a night,
> which has resulted in both of them being out all night, as they're very
> close and I couldnt keep Tayla in whilst his sister is out. I dont
> mind the occasional 'all nighter' but I do prefer them in at night.
> Jets refusal to come is now getting 'worse' and I'm lucky if she comes
> in the house at all over say, two days- it all seems like a game to
> her, she comes near, then runs off and I dont see her for hours before
> the whole thing repeats again. I am getting very concerned as she also
> turns up her nose at whatever food I put down for her, and although she
> nibbles biscuits occassionally (which I'm now started to leave outside)
> and she is literally started to look very thin. She also seems to be
> going timid, ie jumping at the slightest noise, which is why I want her
> in, as something has obviously frightened her.
>
> Tayla is a real home boy and mummies boy, and is very obedient, but he
> is very slowly starting to emulate his sisters behaviour, though he
> does eat very very well, so I'm not concerned there. I konw the weather
> is very hot, so maybe I'm being paranoid, and they are only milling
> around in the garden or in the bushes at the back of the house, but I'm
> very concerned that they're going to be out all of the time. Although
> Jet is the main problem, they are very very close, and rarely without
> each other - though Jet is unphased if she is out and Tayla in, she
> knows if she is patient, Tayla will be back out with her at some point!
>
> I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
> (or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
> idea on what I can do?
>
> Many thanks in advance

Kiran
July 3rd 06, 03:25 AM
On a similar note, my cat has the opposite problem: She comes in early
enough, but also wants to eat and go back out early, ~3:30 AM - 4 AM
most days.

To be fair, she is not entirely to blame. For a while, our schedules
had us out the door by 5 AM and we fed her ~ 4:00AM - 4:30AM. Now we
can and would like to sleep a little longer, but she hasn't gotten the
message! She doesn't go beyond a few well-fenced yards, so we are not
worried about her safety here, just our sleep.

We do have a cat door but that is not the answer because she also wants
to eat at that time. We refuse to put her on kibble for our
convenience, hence the standoff. :-)

I would appreciate any ideas...

Rhonda
July 3rd 06, 03:58 AM
Yes, you are right to be very worried about them being out at night.

At the very least, keep the one cat in at night who will stay in. Maybe
instead of emulating the cat outside, the outside one will want to come
in sooner.

Do whatever you can, even bringing them both in earlier than normal to
trick them into being inside at nightfall. But I would definitely keep
at least the one in so that you are not encouraging bad behavior in that
one too!

I've never had outside cats -- we've just tried to make the indoors more
interesting for them. We've build "cat balconies," window extensions
encased in hardware cloth for the cats to be outside, but be safely
inside at the same time.

Good luck,

Rhonda

wrote:
]>
> I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
> (or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
> idea on what I can do?
>
> Many thanks in advance
>

Ryan Robbins
July 3rd 06, 05:54 AM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
> (or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
> idea on what I can do?

Gee... Let's think...

How about Don't Let Them Out?

Camilla Baird
July 3rd 06, 05:56 AM
wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have two cats, who have just turned a year old. One is ginger and
> male (Tayla), the other black and female(Jet). Over the last few
> weeks, Jet has started too become harder and harder to get in a night,
> which has resulted in both of them being out all night, as they're very
> close and I couldnt keep Tayla in whilst his sister is out. I dont
> mind the occasional 'all nighter' but I do prefer them in at night.
> Jets refusal to come is now getting 'worse' and I'm lucky if she comes
> in the house at all over say, two days- it all seems like a game to
> her, she comes near, then runs off and I dont see her for hours before
> the whole thing repeats again. I am getting very concerned as she also
> turns up her nose at whatever food I put down for her, and although she
> nibbles biscuits occassionally (which I'm now started to leave outside)
> and she is literally started to look very thin. She also seems to be
> going timid, ie jumping at the slightest noise, which is why I want her
> in, as something has obviously frightened her.
>
> Tayla is a real home boy and mummies boy, and is very obedient, but he
> is very slowly starting to emulate his sisters behaviour, though he
> does eat very very well, so I'm not concerned there. I konw the weather
> is very hot, so maybe I'm being paranoid, and they are only milling
> around in the garden or in the bushes at the back of the house, but I'm
> very concerned that they're going to be out all of the time. Although
> Jet is the main problem, they are very very close, and rarely without
> each other - though Jet is unphased if she is out and Tayla in, she
> knows if she is patient, Tayla will be back out with her at some point!
>
> I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
> (or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
> idea on what I can do?
>
> Many thanks in advance
>


Are both cats neutered? If not, this might very well be a solution to
your problem. ;-)

Otherwise, I suggest fencing in (a part of) your garden for the cats to
run in - this way you don't have to worry too much about them being
outside. (A good cat fence is about 1.80meters high with an overhang of
about 0,5meters at a 90degree angle - or even better a complete roof.
The material should be metal mesh - the kind used for parrot volieres.)

Camilla

July 3rd 06, 06:09 AM
wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have two cats, who have just turned a year old. One is ginger and
> male (Tayla), the other black and female(Jet). Over the last few
> weeks, Jet has started too become harder and harder to get in a night,
> which has resulted in both of them being out all night, as they're very
> close and I couldnt keep Tayla in whilst his sister is out. I dont
> mind the occasional 'all nighter' but I do prefer them in at night.
> Jets refusal to come is now getting 'worse' and I'm lucky if she comes
> in the house at all over say, two days- it all seems like a game to
> her, she comes near, then runs off and I dont see her for hours before
> the whole thing repeats again. I am getting very concerned as she also
> turns up her nose at whatever food I put down for her, and although she
> nibbles biscuits occassionally (which I'm now started to leave outside)
> and she is literally started to look very thin. She also seems to be
> going timid, ie jumping at the slightest noise, which is why I want her
> in, as something has obviously frightened her.
>
> Tayla is a real home boy and mummies boy, and is very obedient, but he
> is very slowly starting to emulate his sisters behaviour, though he
> does eat very very well, so I'm not concerned there. I konw the weather
> is very hot, so maybe I'm being paranoid, and they are only milling
> around in the garden or in the bushes at the back of the house, but I'm
> very concerned that they're going to be out all of the time. Although
> Jet is the main problem, they are very very close, and rarely without
> each other - though Jet is unphased if she is out and Tayla in, she
> knows if she is patient, Tayla will be back out with her at some point!
>
> I have never had a cat behave like this, but I'm so worried that she
> (or both!) will turn ferral and I'll lose them. Does anyone have any
> idea on what I can do?
>
> Many thanks in advance

one of my cats is the same way. once he goes out it is extremely hard
to get him to come back inside. how we handle this is we only let him
out a few times a month. we dont want to let him out on a daily basis
because statistically outdoor cats dont live as long as indoor due to
deseases ect.

to get him in you have to walk pass him not looking at him like you
could care a less he's there, then once you are a few steps away from
him -keeping your eyes straight forward suddenly POUNCE to the side and
Snatch him up. thats the only way we can catch him. our other cat that
goes out will just meow and come back in. hope it helps. you will look
funny to the neighbors trying this tactic but who the heck cares- it
works!

Kiran
July 3rd 06, 06:27 AM
Camilla Baird > wrote:

: What are you feeding her? Why is kibble not an option? I would suggest a
: bowl of kibble which she could nibble at at her convenience - she could
: get meat or canned food as a treat when you get up. IMHO her basic food
: should be a good quality kibble.

I appreciate all advice, but my research has led me to conclude just
the opposite: most food should be canned, just a little kibble to make
sure they will eat it when they must. Of 14 weekly meals I feed her
about 10-12 are canned.

I have tried leaving small "treat portions" of kibble, hoping this
would be enough for now and I can feed her later, but this has not
worked.

Right now I am working on getting her to accept eating 15 minutes late
every 1-2 weeks or so. I am also trying to exercise her in the evening
hoping she will sleep sounder and later. So far her habits have proved
stronger than my efforts, but let's see how it goes.

Camilla Baird
July 3rd 06, 06:42 AM
Kiran wrote:
> Camilla Baird > wrote:
>
> : What are you feeding her? Why is kibble not an option? I would suggest a
> : bowl of kibble which she could nibble at at her convenience - she could
> : get meat or canned food as a treat when you get up. IMHO her basic food
> : should be a good quality kibble.
>
> I appreciate all advice, but my research has led me to conclude just
> the opposite: most food should be canned, just a little kibble to make
> sure they will eat it when they must. Of 14 weekly meals I feed her
> about 10-12 are canned.
>
> I have tried leaving small "treat portions" of kibble, hoping this
> would be enough for now and I can feed her later, but this has not
> worked.
>
> Right now I am working on getting her to accept eating 15 minutes late
> every 1-2 weeks or so. I am also trying to exercise her in the evening
> hoping she will sleep sounder and later. So far her habits have proved
> stronger than my efforts, but let's see how it goes.


Interesting how different research leads to different conclusions. ;-)
There might also be different feeding traditions in different parts of
the world.
In Denmark (where I am), good quality kibble is considered the best
basic food. Canned food and raw meat are treats. Most kibble contains
more fibres than most canned food - fibres keep the cat from feeling
hungry.
Camilla

Rhonda
July 3rd 06, 06:56 AM
Camilla Baird wrote:
> In Denmark (where I am), good quality kibble is considered the best
> basic food. Canned food and raw meat are treats. Most kibble contains
> more fibres than most canned food - fibres keep the cat from feeling
> hungry.

I think the main problem is the carbs in dry food that are not part of
their natural diet.

I don't know about with cats, but carbs make me more hungry! Protein is
what fills me up.

Rhonda

Kiran
July 3rd 06, 08:49 AM
Camilla Baird > wrote:

: Interesting how different research leads to different conclusions. ;-)
: There might also be different feeding traditions in different parts of
: the world.
: In Denmark (where I am), good quality kibble is considered the best
: basic food. Canned food and raw meat are treats. Most kibble contains
: more fibres than most canned food - fibres keep the cat from feeling
: hungry.

Hi Camilla, interesting indeed. Here's the summary of what I
found/think. Kibble is often preferred because it is cheap and
convenient. Obviously, before modern times, no cat ate any kibble; good
canned food is much closer to what they would eat in nature. Cat's
bodies, miniature tigers!, are designed to digest proteins, not carbs.
Worse, carb calories will go unregistered leaving them feeling hungry,
like what happens to people eating potato chips and pop corns.

Canned foods usually provide suffcient water for their desert designed
bodies (where cats don't drink much water, but get it from their prey).
Kibble will absorb their body water, leaving them dehydrated. Given
their evolutionary instinct, most cats will simply not drink enough
water to compensate for this dehydration.

Some tout the supposed dental benefis of kibble. Personally, I find
brushing is a much better way of cleaning my own teeth than chewing
candy or pretzels, so I learned to brush my cat's teeth too. It's hard
enough to find food that meets all caloric and nutritional needs, why
require it to function as toothbrush too? :)

In the spirit of research, here are a few references:

<http://www.catinfo.org/index.htm>

<http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food._
_Which_is_reall>

<http://cats.about.com/cs/catfood/a/canned_food.htm>

<http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc
atsneedcannedfood>

<http://www.vetcentric.com/magazine/magazineArticle.cfm?ARTICLEID=1430>

However, even if you are convinced by this material, you should never
switch your cat's diet, or frankly anything about their life, abruptly.
Any change should be as gradual as possible.

Best regards.

Camilla Baird
July 3rd 06, 10:50 AM
Kiran wrote:
> Camilla Baird > wrote:
>
> : Interesting how different research leads to different conclusions. ;-)
> : There might also be different feeding traditions in different parts of
> : the world.
> : In Denmark (where I am), good quality kibble is considered the best
> : basic food. Canned food and raw meat are treats. Most kibble contains
> : more fibres than most canned food - fibres keep the cat from feeling
> : hungry.
>
> Hi Camilla, interesting indeed. Here's the summary of what I
> found/think. Kibble is often preferred because it is cheap and
> convenient. Obviously, before modern times, no cat ate any kibble; good
> canned food is much closer to what they would eat in nature. Cat's
> bodies, miniature tigers!, are designed to digest proteins, not carbs.
> Worse, carb calories will go unregistered leaving them feeling hungry,
> like what happens to people eating potato chips and pop corns.
>
> Canned foods usually provide suffcient water for their desert designed
> bodies (where cats don't drink much water, but get it from their prey).
> Kibble will absorb their body water, leaving them dehydrated. Given
> their evolutionary instinct, most cats will simply not drink enough
> water to compensate for this dehydration.
>
> Some tout the supposed dental benefis of kibble. Personally, I find
> brushing is a much better way of cleaning my own teeth than chewing
> candy or pretzels, so I learned to brush my cat's teeth too. It's hard
> enough to find food that meets all caloric and nutritional needs, why
> require it to function as toothbrush too? :)
>
> In the spirit of research, here are a few references:
>
> <http://www.catinfo.org/index.htm>
>
> <http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food._
> _Which_is_reall>
>
> <http://cats.about.com/cs/catfood/a/canned_food.htm>
>
> <http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc
> atsneedcannedfood>
>
> <http://www.vetcentric.com/magazine/magazineArticle.cfm?ARTICLEID=1430>
>
> However, even if you are convinced by this material, you should never
> switch your cat's diet, or frankly anything about their life, abruptly.
> Any change should be as gradual as possible.
>
> Best regards.

Interesting reading.
However, given the choice between kibble and raw meat, most of my cats
choose kibble - though I have a few cats who would kill for raw meat.
Canned food is not liked by most of my cats - having the choice between
raw meat and canned food, raw meat wins every time. Kibble is always
accepted though.
Camilla

Camilla Baird
July 3rd 06, 10:51 AM
Rhonda wrote:
> Camilla Baird wrote:
>> In Denmark (where I am), good quality kibble is considered the best
>> basic food. Canned food and raw meat are treats. Most kibble contains
>> more fibres than most canned food - fibres keep the cat from feeling
>> hungry.
>
> I think the main problem is the carbs in dry food that are not part of
> their natural diet.
>
> I don't know about with cats, but carbs make me more hungry! Protein is
> what fills me up.
>
> Rhonda
>


You may be right :-)
All I know is that my cats eat less and are filled longer on kibble than
on canned food. raw meat fills them in a completely different way. ;-)
Camilla

Kiran
July 3rd 06, 12:46 PM
Camilla Baird > wrote:

: Interesting reading.
: However, given the choice between kibble and raw meat, most of my cats
: choose kibble - though I have a few cats who would kill for raw meat.
: Canned food is not liked by most of my cats - having the choice between
: raw meat and canned food, raw meat wins every time. Kibble is always
: accepted though.

Cats are creatures of habit. Whatever they are used to eating, unless
they will resist change, specially sudden change. (Many get addicted to
kibble because they start out in shelters or mills where kibble is what
is served out of convenience.) My cat eats a few kinds of canned and
one kind of kibble but she will probably refuse an abrupt change of
flavor or brand!

If you are convinced by the scientific arguments, you should introduce
some canned into their diet very gradually, eventually shooting for at
least 50% IMHO. Look for good quality chicken or turkey, low carbs, low
phosphorous. Such data is available at

http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html

Kiran
July 3rd 06, 12:55 PM
Camilla Baird > wrote:

: ...

Just wanted to add that feeding raw diet exclusively requires a
different level of expertise and commitment and most people should not
attempt it. You may get the proteins right, but you are unlikely to get
all other nutrients right in the correct proportion. For most of us,
good commercial canned food is the best bet. However, pay attention to
low carb, low phosphorous, and stick to chicken/turkey. Beef, lamb,
seafood are unnatural for cats and should only be used as occasional
treats. One last thing, more expensive brands, especially "boutique"
kind are not always better, so do read the labels.

Camilla Baird
July 3rd 06, 11:01 PM
: Canned food is not liked by most of my cats - having the choice between

> If you are convinced by the scientific arguments, you should introduce
> some canned into their diet very gradually, eventually shooting for at
> least 50% IMHO. Look for good quality chicken or turkey, low carbs, low
> phosphorous. Such data is available at
>
> http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html


I could be convinced by these arguments, but cats can't ;-) They will
eat some raw meat as a supplement to their kibble. They will eat the
cheapest canned food. The good quality canned food is snubbed. ;-)
Camilla