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Mike
July 6th 06, 11:47 PM
I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork
and apparently everything is fine.

Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

July 7th 06, 12:20 AM
In article >,
"Mike" > wrote:

> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
> tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
> the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
> kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
> morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork
> and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike

All of our cats (from 7 to 15 years old) have had anesthetized teeth
cleanings. All were happy with their clean choppers once they were home
again. There is always risk with anesthesia; your vet should be able to
easily quantify it for you regarding your cat.

July 7th 06, 02:13 AM
Mike wrote:
> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
> tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
> the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
> kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
> morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork
> and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike

I've done it once in the past with a 15 year old cat. No problems at
all.

I will be doing Kira soon. She isn't over her eye problem yet, so she
has to wait.

There is always a risk, but it usually works fine. I worry too, with
anything, even just cleaning out an abcess. I'm not happy til I have
picked them up and can fret over them in person.

Cheryl
July 7th 06, 03:10 AM
On Thu 06 Jul 2006 06:47:50p, Mike wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
):

> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth
> cleaned tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've
> been treating her for the past few days with liquid antibiotics.
> I was concerned how risky this kind of procedure was? Of
> course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow morning (I've had
> the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork and
> apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out
> there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike
>
>
Shamrock is my only cat ever that had to have cleanings, and he's
had two now (5 years old). With the first dental, there was nothing
strange afterwards when he got home. The second one, though, he was
still really "out of it" when I brought him home. I'd suggest find
out what time of day she had it done, and if it's later in the day,
Tiger (or whichever one is having this done) will still be out of
it when you pick her up. I had to leave Shamrock in his carrier for
a few hours, but while still being out of it, he wouldn't sleep.
Instead, he was bashing his head against the carrier door trying to
get out. If I let him out, his legs didn't work, so it was better
to just let him bang his head on the door. When I finally did let
him out, he wobbled, so I took him downstairs and barricaded the
stairs so he couldn't try to climb them. He walked in circles for a
while, and couldn't jump on the couch with me, and didn't want to
be sitting still on my lap, either, though he seemed like he wanted
to. He was just really drugged and confused. Dr's orders were no
food until the next morning, but since he hadn't eaten since the
night before, I gave him a little gooshy food, not too much until I
could see if it would make him nauceous. When it didn't make him
sick, he ate a little more and slowly came out of his haze.

If the procedure is done late in the day and you can't leave her
overnight, be prepared for being a babysitter while she gets her
senses back.



--
Cheryl

Elizabeth Blake
July 7th 06, 03:53 AM
"Mike" > wrote in message
...
>I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
>tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
>the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
>kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
>morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did
>bloodwork and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike

Otto (close to 7 years old) had his done last week. His teeth were in bad
shape, and he had 3 pulled. I was amazed at how alert & normal he was after
I picked him up and brought him home. He wobbled once when he jumped out of
his carrier and that was it. He was starving and he wanted to eat. He had
been getting very picky with his food in the weeks before his cleaning.

My cat Tiger, who passed away in March, had a couple of cleanings done
during her life. Her last one was in October 2004 (she was 14.5 years old)
and she had 2 teeth pulled. Tiger always took a little longer to recover
from anesthesia, but she never had any problems. She was knocked out for
other things besides her tteth - she had her ears deep cleaned a number of
times and also had a tumor removed.

--
Liz

cybercat
July 7th 06, 04:41 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote

> Shamrock is my only cat ever that had to have cleanings, and he's
> had two now (5 years old). With the first dental, there was nothing
> strange afterwards when he got home. The second one, though, he was
> still really "out of it" when I brought him home. I'd suggest find
> out what time of day she had it done, and if it's later in the day,
> Tiger (or whichever one is having this done) will still be out of
> it when you pick her up. I had to leave Shamrock in his carrier for
> a few hours, but while still being out of it, he wouldn't sleep.
> Instead, he was bashing his head against the carrier door trying to
> get out. If I let him out, his legs didn't work, so it was better
> to just let him bang his head on the door.

??Why didn't you just let him out and hold him on your lap or let
him curl up in the bathroom on a rug? Or on the bed?

-L.
July 7th 06, 06:58 AM
Mike wrote:
> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
> tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
> the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
> kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
> morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork
> and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!

It's very safe if they use gas anesthesia.

-L.

-L.
July 7th 06, 07:00 AM
Cheryl wrote:
> >
> Shamrock is my only cat ever that had to have cleanings, and he's
> had two now (5 years old). With the first dental, there was nothing
> strange afterwards when he got home. The second one, though, he was
> still really "out of it" when I brought him home.

Sounds like they used a ketamine pre-sed. That stuff is just nasty.
I'd ask them if there were differences in the pre-sed between your
first dental and your second. I have seen a cat on ketamine *fly* out
of a cage 12 feet and smack in to a wall. Weirdest thing I have ever
seen in my life. Kitty was ok but scared the poop out of everyone who
witnessed it.

-L.

July 7th 06, 09:38 AM
Mike wrote:
> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
> tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
> the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
> kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
> morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did bloodwork
> and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!

There's enough horror stories, however the chances of horror are small.
Still, there's several things you can do to minimize risks.

1. Ask your vet what anesthetics (s)he uses. Ask how long he's been
using them and maybe even ask if he's ever had bad cases with the
anesthetics he uses.
2. Does the vet perform any test prior to using anesthetics, to check
the general condition of the cat or to specifically check for possible
complications of anesthetics? I'm thinking of blood testing.
3. Ensure that you take proper care of your cat after anesthetics
treatment. Demand an after-anesthetics brochure or set of
care-guidelines.
4. Be dilligent after anesthetics treatment. If general anesthetics are
being used, they should wear off several hours after treatment. If your
cat shows complications hours after the anesthetics, then this is a
sign that your cat is suffering from side effects. They may be benign,
but it's worth while dealing with such effects in an early stage.

Your cat is somewhat older and older cats (and very young cats) are
more susceptible to side effects than young and healthy cats. If your
cat has a dental infection then your cat has less resistance and this
is something you may want to address with the vet. The combination of
antibiotics treatment and anesthetics is something you could bring up
with the vet.

Ultimately, your cat requires treatment and the treatment should
improve your cat's well being. The chances of things going wrong are
low but not zero. General anesthetics is not a trivial matter. There's
several types of anesthetics, all with their pros and cons. The
application of anesthetics is a detailed process, where the vet has to
pay attention to several variables (changes in respiratory & heart
rate) taking place in a short period of time.

Humans will go through several tests prior to anesthetics. Animals
generally don't undergo such testing. An ounce of prevention (or self
education) is worth a pound of cure.

I found this site with some more info on anesthetics for cats. Just
bear in mind that this is a concentration of situations going wrong and
by no means implies the same for your or any other cat.

http://www.vetinfo.com/canesthesia.html

Good brushing!

Martin

Alison
July 7th 06, 01:16 PM
"Mike" > wrote in message
...
> I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
> tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her
for
> the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky
this
> kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
> morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did
bloodwork
> and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike >>


Kim is 7 and had her teeth cleaned and one tooth removed a couple of weeks
ago and she was absolutely fine.
Best wishes for your cat,
Alison

Mike
July 7th 06, 07:19 PM
Thanks to all for their information and reassurances. I got the call from
the vet and it's not good news.

First, the vet said that as they started working on her, two teeth were so
infected and loose that they "just fell out." Then she said a canine tooth
she'd pointed out to me as being infected was also removed. Next, she said
there was one additional tooth that they partially "amputated" due to the
infection/redness. Fourth, they did an x-ray on her jaw and something
"funny" was going on there that indicated that infection had infiltrated her
jaw bone and weakened surrounding areas. On top of all this, they told me
this could all be the result of a really bad infection that has set in....or
it's cancer.

They are going to do a biopsy and I should have the lab results in another
week. I feel pretty stunned right now. I feel awfully guilty, like I
should have noticed some kind of sign this was happening, something beyond
her recent bad breath.

She'll be on antibiotics and steroids for a while to see if that helps
things...I'm really hoping it clears up and the cancer talk is just
premature speculation.

Mike

"Mike" > wrote in message
...
>I have a nine-year-old cat that's scheduled to have her teeth cleaned
>tomorrow morning. She has an infected tooth and I've been treating her for
>the past few days with liquid antibiotics. I was concerned how risky this
>kind of procedure was? Of course, I intend to voice my concerns tomorrow
>morning (I've had the past three days to fret about it). They did
>bloodwork and apparently everything is fine.
>
> Hopefully there aren't many teeth cleaning horror stories out there!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Mike
>

cybercat
July 7th 06, 08:18 PM
"Mike" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks to all for their information and reassurances. I got the call from
> the vet and it's not good news.
>
[...]>
> They are going to do a biopsy and I should have the lab results in another
> week. I feel pretty stunned right now. I feel awfully guilty, like I
> should have noticed some kind of sign this was happening, something beyond
> her recent bad breath.
>
> She'll be on antibiotics and steroids for a while to see if that helps
> things...I'm really hoping it clears up and the cancer talk is just
> premature speculation.
>

I really hope so too. She's nine, so, relatively young--maybe that will
help her fight this. I am so glad you took her to the vet. She will feel
so much better with her mouth cleaned up.

July 7th 06, 08:19 PM
Mike wrote:
> Thanks to all for their information and reassurances. I got the call from
> the vet and it's not good news.
>
> First, the vet said that as they started working on her, two teeth were so
> infected and loose that they "just fell out." Then she said a canine tooth
> she'd pointed out to me as being infected was also removed. Next, she said
> there was one additional tooth that they partially "amputated" due to the
> infection/redness. Fourth, they did an x-ray on her jaw and something
> "funny" was going on there that indicated that infection had infiltrated her
> jaw bone and weakened surrounding areas. On top of all this, they told me
> this could all be the result of a really bad infection that has set in....or
> it's cancer.
>
> They are going to do a biopsy and I should have the lab results in another
> week. I feel pretty stunned right now. I feel awfully guilty, like I
> should have noticed some kind of sign this was happening, something beyond
> her recent bad breath.


It probably wouldn't have made much of difference. The only way not to
notice signs too late is by not having a cat in the first place. If
you're guilty of anything, then it's being a concerned pet owner. The
punishment that goes with that 'crime' is sadness and insecurity.

However, at this point in time your cat is in professional hands. From
my point of view, you're doing the best you can and I don't think your
cat can expect more from you.

Hope she recovers soon,

Martin

Cheryl
July 8th 06, 05:19 AM
On Fri 07 Jul 2006 02:00:12a, -L. wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
roups.com):

>
> Cheryl wrote:
>> >
>> Shamrock is my only cat ever that had to have cleanings, and
>> he's had two now (5 years old). With the first dental, there
>> was nothing strange afterwards when he got home. The second
>> one, though, he was still really "out of it" when I brought him
>> home.
>
> Sounds like they used a ketamine pre-sed. That stuff is just
> nasty. I'd ask them if there were differences in the pre-sed
> between your first dental and your second. I have seen a cat on
> ketamine *fly* out of a cage 12 feet and smack in to a wall.
> Weirdest thing I have ever seen in my life. Kitty was ok but
> scared the poop out of everyone who witnessed it.
>
> -L.
>
>

I'll ask. The vet that did his first dental retired and a new one
bought the practice. She's the one that did the second one. Lyn, I
couldn't have held him still while he was coming out of it if I
wanted to. He was just too wired. I could only provide a safe
wandering place. Anyone whose never seen that reaction wouldn't
understand.

--
Cheryl

-L.
July 8th 06, 09:46 AM
Cheryl wrote:
>
> I'll ask. The vet that did his first dental retired and a new one
> bought the practice. She's the one that did the second one. Lyn, I
> couldn't have held him still while he was coming out of it if I
> wanted to. He was just too wired. I could only provide a safe
> wandering place. Anyone whose never seen that reaction wouldn't
> understand.

Sounds like Ketamine to me, or an Ace/ket cocktail. We usually would
just put cats in cages and let them get over it gradually. Sounds also
like they maybe gave him too high of a dose.

Ketamine is a hallucinogen so potent people break in to vets offices to
steal it to sell it on the streets - street name "Special K". Why the
hell they still use it in cats is beyond me...(Well, it's cheap and
that's why they use it...)

-L.

cybercat
July 8th 06, 05:30 PM
"Mike" > wrote:
>
> One thing that surprised me was that I had always heard dry food was
better
> for cats than wet food. But what one of the veterinarian's assistants
told
> me was that dry food is known to come with "bugs" in it, due to the type
of
> processing involved. I was disgusted. She was referring to bugs on a
> microscopic level. For whatever reason, there are no such bugs in wet
food,
> I suppose due to the canning process, high heat, etc. Has anyone heard
> this?!? And then another vet told us that as cats grow older, the
> advantages of dry food on the teeth vs. wet food begins to narrow because
> older cats typically drink less water, so wet food helps them get their
> daily requirement. Interesting.
>
> Mike
>
>

I just want to say, you have a great vet. And you will see a difference in
your
cat within two weeks of feeding her canned food only. I switched and could
not
believe the difference in their coats and energy level. Not only because of
the
lack of bugs (! I had not heard this!) but because canned food is not full
of the
starchy grain fillers dry food often has. Many cats are allergic to corn and
wheat,
and besides, cats are obligate carnivores, they need meat! Mine love Fancy
Feast,
and I feed them only the varieties that have beef, chicken, liver, salmon,
or turkey
as a first ingredient and no wheat gluten. (In other words, steer clear of
brands
and FF flavors with "meat byproducts" as as first ingredient and check for
wheat
gluten. If your cat is allergic, and mine is, this is important.)

Also, you are wise to get rid of the plastic, it does harbor bacteria. I
use the
saucers from my everyday china (we use mugs for our coffee!) for the wet
food
and bought ceramic cat dishes for $4 each at Walmart for water. I wash and
rinse
them with hot water between each feeding.

Hope kitty gets better fast.

~^Johnny^~
July 20th 06, 01:10 AM
On 8 Jul 2006 01:46:20 -0700, "-L." > wrote:

>Ketamine is a hallucinogen so potent people break in to vets offices to
>steal it to sell it on the streets - street name "Special K". Why the
>hell they still use it in cats is beyond me...(Well, it's cheap and
>that's why they use it...)

You misunderstand.

Ketamine is not a pre-med. Usually Valium (a mild benzodiazepine
tranquilizer) is given, or low dose of Diprivan (a non-narcotic
sedative) is given. But the knock-out agent is Ketamine. It's not
really a "hallucinogen", per se, rather, it is in a class of
anaesthetics known as "dissociatives". Uncnsciousness is induced by
dissociation, rather than by GABA agonism. Primarily, Ketamine is a
NMDA antagonist. The weird behaviour during and after recovery from
dissociative anaesthetics is known as "emergence effects", and may
involve excitement and hallucinations, but still Ketamine is much
safer than older agents, especially mor so than the inhalation agents
such as Halothane and Isoflurane, and at least none of those are
anywhere near as hazardous as total intravenous barbiturate
anaesthesia (Brevuital, Pentothal, etc).

In fact, when I had my four kitties spayed/nuetered, I _insisted_ on
Ketamine. The vet down the street told me he had a "gas chamber"
he used for induction. So I chose the vet FURTHER down the street.
It just so happened, that vet (the one who uses Ketamine for
anaesthesia) has been a long time family vet anyway, so I felt very
comfortable.


Emergence effects from Ketamine may be alarming, but believe me, it
is teh safest agent. This is why rabbit veteranarians use it almost
exclusively (rabbits are VERY sensitive to over-anesthetization).


IHTH.



--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~^Johnny^~
July 20th 06, 01:11 AM
On 6 Jul 2006 22:58:06 -0700, "-L." > wrote:

>It's very safe if they use gas anesthesia.

WRONG!!!!


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~^Johnny^~
July 20th 06, 01:18 AM
On 6 Jul 2006 23:00:12 -0700, "-L." > wrote:

>Sounds like they used a ketamine pre-sed. That stuff is just nasty.
>I'd ask them if there were differences in the pre-sed between your
>first dental and your second.


You should get your facts straight before giving advice.
Ketamine will knock you out so fast you won't know what hit you (until
you wake up ... "coming out" of the anaesthesia can be psychedelic,
for sure).

Recreational users of the drug take sub-anaesthetic doses, to induce
the psychedelic "emergence effects". But the drug is a dissociative
agent, not an hallucinogen like LSD or mescaline.

Please do yourself a favor and read a good book on anaesthesiology.


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

Hezabel
July 20th 06, 01:43 AM
My Phoebe needed an extraction for an upper fang (bad infection root
was dead). The doctor put her on antibiotics for a week. She went in
at 8:30am. Had her extraction, blood test, cleaning, and two stitches.
She did fine, by 7:00 pm that evening she had a couple of tablespoons
of soft food and a bit of water. She was eating her dry kibble by the
next morning.

I was besides myself with worry, but she did just fine.

Funny how I got estimates from two doctors for this extraction. One
was "approx" $875.00 not including any take home medication and the
other (her usual doc) was $260.00 medications and all, even some extra
pain drug.

My best wishes for your kitty.

Hezabel
July 20th 06, 01:57 AM
My Phoebe needed an extraction for an upper fang (bad infection root
was dead). The doctor put her on antibiotics for a week. She went in
at 8:30am. Had her extraction, blood test, cleaning, and two stitches.
She did fine, by 7:00 pm that evening she had a couple of tablespoons
of soft food and a bit of water. She was eating her dry kibble by the
next morning.

I was besides myself with worry, but she did just fine.

Funny how I got estimates from two doctors for this extraction. One
was "approx" $875.00 not including any take home medication and the
other (her usual doc) was $260.00 medications and all, even some extra
pain drug.

My best wishes for your kitty.

cybercat
July 20th 06, 03:20 AM
"Hezabel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My Phoebe needed an extraction for an upper fang (bad infection root
> was dead). The doctor put her on antibiotics for a week. She went in
> at 8:30am. Had her extraction, blood test, cleaning, and two stitches.
> She did fine, by 7:00 pm that evening she had a couple of tablespoons
> of soft food and a bit of water. She was eating her dry kibble by the
> next morning.
>
> I was besides myself with worry, but she did just fine.
>
> Funny how I got estimates from two doctors for this extraction. One
> was "approx" $875.00 not including any take home medication and the
> other (her usual doc) was $260.00 medications and all, even some extra
> pain drug.

You were so smart to get a second quote!

July 20th 06, 03:26 AM
Mike wrote:
> I wonder if this has anything to do with my cat's love for chewing plastic
> bags. She's done that for years. Also, the "auto" feeder I have is
> plastic. I'm going to try to "plastic-proof" my house this weekend. Maybe
> that will make a difference in her recovery. On top of all that, I'm
> force-feeding her eye dropper-fulls of ClavaMox liquid antibiotics.

That's rough stuff. Can make a cat nauseous. If you have problems,
maybe squirrel it away in her food?

> One thing that surprised me was that I had always heard dry food was better
> for cats than wet food. But what one of the veterinarian's assistants told
> me was that dry food is known to come with "bugs" in it, due to the type of
> processing involved. I was disgusted. She was referring to bugs on a
> microscopic level. For whatever reason, there are no such bugs in wet food,
> I suppose due to the canning process, high heat, etc. Has anyone heard
> this?!? And then another vet told us that as cats grow older, the
> advantages of dry food on the teeth vs. wet food begins to narrow because
> older cats typically drink less water, so wet food helps them get their
> daily requirement. Interesting.

Nope wet food can be much better because of urinary problems with not
enough water which outweighs anything with dry food. About bugs, that
sounds somewhat absurd. What bugs is she talking about and so what?
Cats have digestive tracts designed for predators and are usually bug
proof.

In any case, I try to get dry food with an expiration date 1 1/2 years
into the future. I also keep the food in the refrigerator in airtight
containers so it's not a problem. The same goes for my cat's canned
foods. I drather pay more for Science Diet that expires in 2007 than
the same bag that expires this year.

Teeth problems in cats can go directly to the heart and bring cardiac
problems. So be careful if she has had massive infections. Some of the
things you said make me feel a bit queasy about your vet. Just a hunch.
And did he use ketamine? And why not the gas instead? More work and
more expensive but ketamine is rough stuff.

Hezabel
July 21st 06, 11:49 PM
I just happened to submit twice, cybercat. I am new around here.
Regardless; thank you for noticing. Very sharp of you.

cybercat
July 22nd 06, 12:25 AM
"Hezabel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just happened to submit twice, cybercat. I am new around here.
> Regardless; thank you for noticing. Very sharp of you.
>

I have no idea what you are referring to. Try incuding a snippet of the post
to which you are referring. Then I can feel properly chastized. Or whatever
it is you want.

~^Johnny^~
July 22nd 06, 01:43 AM
On 22 Jul 2006 01:25:25 +0200, "cybercat" > wrote:

>
>"Hezabel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I just happened to submit twice, cybercat. I am new around here.
>> Regardless; thank you for noticing. Very sharp of you.
>>
>
>I have no idea what you are referring to. Try incuding a snippet of the post
>to which you are referring. Then I can feel properly chastized. Or whatever
>it is you want.
>


Yeah, it's known as the "hidden claws clause". It is quite sharp, if
you two notice. ;->

<grinning, ducking and running>

All joking aside (even a bad pun is better than none):

Purrs for all of you. I lurk in these ailurophile groups, but
post infrequently, due to the large volume of data (yes, text data)
that I encounter.

It's also difficult at times for me to read some of the stories here
and in r.p.c.a, without breaking down, even as as if it were my own
kitty, so I skip a lot of threads and don't post here often. And I'm
not kidding about that!






--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

Hezabel
July 22nd 06, 02:57 AM
~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2006 01:25:25 +0200, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Hezabel" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> I just happened to submit twice, cybercat. I am new around here.
> >> Regardless; thank you for noticing. Very sharp of you.
> >>
> >
> >I have no idea what you are referring to. Try incuding a snippet of the post
> >to which you are referring. Then I can feel properly chastized. Or whatever
> >it is you want.
> >
>
>
> Yeah, it's known as the "hidden claws clause". It is quite sharp, if
> you two notice. ;->
>
> <grinning, ducking and running>
>
> All joking aside (even a bad pun is better than none):
>
> Purrs for all of you. I lurk in these ailurophile groups, but
> post infrequently, due to the large volume of data (yes, text data)
> that I encounter.
>
> It's also difficult at times for me to read some of the stories here
> and in r.p.c.a, without breaking down, even as as if it were my own
> kitty, so I skip a lot of threads and don't post here often. And I'm
> not kidding about that!
>
I know what you mean. I've been lurking myself thinking I can get good
advice and to learn. What is r.p.c.a.? *I hope this time I don't
submit this twice* :)

July 22nd 06, 02:34 PM
Cheryl wrote:
> [...]
> to. He was just really drugged and confused. Dr's orders were no
> food until the next morning, but since he hadn't eaten since the
> night before, I gave him a little gooshy food, not too much until I
> could see if it would make him nauceous. When it didn't make him
> sick, he ate a little more and slowly came out of his haze.
> [...]

Ooh, careful! When the doctor advises against food after anesthesia,
I'd bet it's because it presents a choking hazard if the kitty can't
muster the energy to finish vomiting if needed, not just nausea.

cybercat
July 22nd 06, 02:37 PM
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Cheryl wrote:
> > [...]
> > to. He was just really drugged and confused. Dr's orders were no
> > food until the next morning, but since he hadn't eaten since the
> > night before, I gave him a little gooshy food, not too much until I
> > could see if it would make him nauceous. When it didn't make him
> > sick, he ate a little more and slowly came out of his haze.
> > [...]
>
> Ooh, careful! When the doctor advises against food after anesthesia,
> I'd bet it's because it presents a choking hazard if the kitty can't
> muster the energy to finish vomiting if needed, not just nausea.
>

I was thinking the same thing.

cybercat
July 22nd 06, 02:40 PM
"~^Johnny^~" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Jul 2006 01:25:25 +0200, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Hezabel" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> I just happened to submit twice, cybercat. I am new around here.
> >> Regardless; thank you for noticing. Very sharp of you.
> >>
> >
> >I have no idea what you are referring to. Try incuding a snippet of the
post
> >to which you are referring. Then I can feel properly chastized. Or
whatever
> >it is you want.
> >
>
>
> Yeah, it's known as the "hidden claws clause". It is quite sharp, if
> you two notice. ;->
>
> <grinning, ducking and running>
>
> All joking aside (even a bad pun is better than none):
>
> Purrs for all of you. I lurk in these ailurophile groups, but
> post infrequently, due to the large volume of data (yes, text data)
> that I encounter.
>
> It's also difficult at times for me to read some of the stories here
> and in r.p.c.a, without breaking down, even as as if it were my own
> kitty, so I skip a lot of threads and don't post here often. And I'm
> not kidding about that!
>
>
We like thenthitive people here. We eat them for breakfast on
buttered toast. :)

Tell us about your cats? A few pitchers, maybe?

miles
July 23rd 06, 04:23 AM
Mike,

Did everything go well with your pussy cat on 8 July? I assume it did.
I have had teeth cleaning procedures involving anaesthetic with a
number of pets, many times, over several years, and I have not had any
problems. As long as the operating vet is well-trained and
well-experienced, there is no more risk for the animal as there is for
a person having an operation in a hospital.

Warmest regards,

Miles
Sydney.

~^Johnny^~
July 23rd 06, 08:03 AM
On 21 Jul 2006 18:57:10 -0700, "Hezabel" > wrote:

>What is r.p.c.a.?

rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

-L.
July 23rd 06, 08:48 AM
~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> You should get your facts straight before giving advice.
> Ketamine will knock you out so fast you won't know what hit you (until
> you wake up ... "coming out" of the anaesthesia can be psychedelic,
> for sure).
>
> Recreational users of the drug take sub-anaesthetic doses, to induce
> the psychedelic "emergence effects". But the drug is a dissociative
> agent, not an hallucinogen like LSD or mescaline.
>
> Please do yourself a favor and read a good book on anaesthesiology.

I don't care how its classifed - ketamine is used on the street to
cause hallucinations. That's a direct quote from people who use it.

I'm not going to get in a ****ing war with you about Ketamine - or
anything else. There are a number of drugs that are much better for
cats other than ketamine - a few reasons being outlined below by
J.Martin, DVM and Phil P. Both of whim are more of an expert than I am
on ketamine usage.

**paste***

>From Phil:
"Alot of vets use it and swear by it (probably because its cheap) I
don't
allow ketamine to be used on my cats. . I'll forego the personal
aversions
and just cite quotes from Veterinary Pharmaceuticals and Biologicals
("The
Veterinarian's PDR") and another veterinary drug handbook:

* Dissociative Anesthetic Agents. Dissociative anesthetic agents are
cyclohexanone derivatives that produce a cataleptic state characterized
by
CNS excitement rather than depression, analgesia, immobility,
dissociation
from one's environment, and amnesia. The two drugs in this group
available
for veterinary anesthesia are ketamine and tiletamine.

* The dissociative agents produce muscle tonus and increased limb
rigidity,
often necessitating the additional use of a tranquilizer/sedative to
produce
better muscle relaxation.

* Seizures have been reported to occur in up to 20% of cats that
receive
ketamine at therapeutic dosages.

* [Ketamine] is thought to induce both anesthesia and amnesia by
functionally disrupting the CNS through over stimulating the CNS or
inducing
a cataleptic state.

* Because ketamine can increase blood pressure, careful control of
hemorrhaging post-surgery should be accomplished.

* By single intramuscular injection, [Ketamine] usually has a wide
margin of
safety in cats and subhuman primates. In cats, cases of prolonged
recovery
and death have been reported.

* Indications: [Ketamine] may be used in cats for restraint or as the
sole
anesthetic agent for diagnostic or minor, brief, surgical procedures
that do
not require skeletal muscle relaxation.

* Contraindications: [Ketamine] is contraindicated in cats and subhuman
primates suffering from renal or hepatic insufficiency.

* [Ketamine] is detoxified by the liver and excreted by the kidneys;
therefore, any pre-existent hepatic or renal pathology or impairment of
function can be expected to result in prolonged anesthesia; related
fatalities have been reported.

* Apnea, respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest and death have occasionally
been
reported with ketamine used alone, and more frequently when used in
conjunction with sedatives or other anesthetics. Close monitoring of
patients is strongly advised during induction, maintenance and recovery
from
anesthesia.

* Adverse reactions reported have included emesis, salivation,
vocalization,
erratic recovery and prolonged recovery, spastic jerking movements,
convulsions, muscular tremors, hypertonicity, opisthotonos, dyspnea and
cardiac arrest. In the cat, myoclonic jerking and/or mild tonic
convulsions
can be controlled by ultrashort-acting barbiturates which should be
given to
effect.

* At the lower doses, complete recovery usually occurs in 4 to 5 hours
but
with higher doses recovery time is more prolonged and may be as long as
24
hours.

(For comparison, recovery takes about 5 minutes with Iso)

Particularly disturbing to me is the cats' eyes remain open with
Ketamine
and should be protected. This can be a significant hazard especially
during
dental cleanings when plaque and huge amounts of bacteria are
aerosolized
I've personally heard of several cats losing their eyesight and
sustaining
eye infections and corneal damage. Also, because the cat's remain
open, an
ophthalmic lubricant should be applied to the cat's eyes to prevent
corneal
drying.

About the only good things about ketamine are respiratory depression is
mild
and coughing and swallowing are maintained - swallowing minimizes the
hazards associated with ptyalism. Pharyngeal-laryngeal reflexes also
help
maintain a patent airway (the cat should be intubated, anyway). OTOH,
the
cat may be more prone to laryngospasm, bronchospasm, and coughing.
"The
dissociative agents increase salivation and respiratory secretions,
sometimes to the point of aspiration and respiratory obstruction."

Normally, the best anesthetic is the one your vet is the most familiar
and
has the most experience with... However, I'd rather that anesthetic be
Iso
for maintenance and propofol as the induction agent. Propofol-Iso
combination is ideal for geriatric cats and cats with renal and hepatic
disease.

I really hope J will comment on ketamine. "


>From J. Martin, DVM:

"When discussing ketamine one has to differentiate as to how its used
eg 1)
induction agent 2)anesthetic maintenance agent 4) for restraint or 3)
adjunct for pain control

1) As an induction agent ketamine mixed with valium is safe for most
patients and allows plenty of time for intubation to get onto inhalant
anesthesia. Laryngospasm is decreased for easy intubaton. I don't
use it
often as an induction agent, usually I use thiopental and sometimes I
use
propofol. I don't like the recoveries on ketamine - seems unpleasant
to
me.
2) Using ketamine for anesthetic maintenance for painful procedures is
cruel. It is a dissociative anesthetic and offers very little visceral
pain
control on its own. There may be more pain control when mixed with
other
drugs but you have no control over anesthetic depth as you do with
inhalant
anesthetics.

**end paste

I have seen far more negative incidents and side effects during and
after surgery with cats pre-sedated with ketamine in the mix, than I
have with cats who received propofol/iso combo. Iso is considered by
most vets as an extremely safe anestheisa for most cats.

Just a word of advice. When you come in to a newgroup and start
****ing on posts that are almost two weeks old, especially with your
obnoxious attitude, you are likely to get ignored.

HTH and HAND,

-L.

~^Johnny^~
July 23rd 06, 09:32 AM
On 23 Jul 2006 00:48:57 -0700, "-L." > wrote:


>I don't care how its classifed - ketamine is used on the street to
>cause hallucinations. That's a direct quote from people who use it.

Oh, GOOD! Druggies!
Dextromethorphan can cause perceptual distortions, too
used recreationally, even though it is not used as a general
anaesthetic.


>
>I'm not going to get in a ****ing war with you about Ketamine - or
>anything else.


[about 100 lines of selective cut-and-paste removed}

YOu sure went to a lot of trouble to prove yourself, thne!

>
>I have seen far more negative incidents and side effects during and
>after surgery with cats pre-sedated with ketamine in the mix, than I
>have with cats who received propofol/iso combo. Iso is considered by
>most vets as an extremely safe anestheisa for most cats.

Diprivan (propofol) is OK as an adjunctive agent.
I believe I did mention that.

Isoflurane is bad. Halothane is worse.

I've got a little secret for you, too,
I've had halothane for an ectraction (it is related to isoflurane),
and teh emergence effects were horrible. Recovery took only five
minutes, but it TOTALLY SUCKED. I'm not saying Ketamine is any
better in that regard, but this ssems to be your focus.

However, halogenated inhalants are extremely toxic to the liver
and other organs, and the effects don't often show up until years
later, or several operations down the road.


>
>Just a word of advice.

Coming from you? LOL!


>When you come in to a newgroup and start
>****ing on posts that are almost two weeks old, especially with your
>obnoxious attitude, you are likely to get ignored.

I am brutally honest. If you don't like it, TOUGH.

As far as being ignored:

=plonk!=

>
>HTH and HAND,
>
>-L.
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
A little knowledge that acts is worth infinitely
more than much knowledge that is idle. -Kahlil Gibran
~~~~~~~~

cybercat
July 23rd 06, 01:59 PM
"-L." > wrote:
>
> **paste***
>
> >From Phil:
> "Alot of vets use it and swear by it (probably because its cheap) I
> don't
> allow ketamine to be used on my cats. . I'll forego the personal
> aversions
> and just cite quotes from Veterinary Pharmaceuticals and Biologicals
> ("The
> Veterinarian's PDR") and another veterinary drug handbook:
>
> * Dissociative Anesthetic Agents. Dissociative anesthetic agents are
> cyclohexanone derivatives that produce a cataleptic state characterized
> by
> CNS excitement rather than depression, analgesia, immobility,
> dissociation
> from one's environment, and amnesia. The two drugs in this group
> available
> for veterinary anesthesia are ketamine and tiletamine.
>

Really scary, especially if you have ever witnessed anyone in a
dissociative state. I sure wouldn't let anyone give it to my cats.

~^Johnny^~
July 25th 06, 02:29 AM
On 22 Jul 2006 15:40:02 +0200, "cybercat" > wrote:

>We like thenthitive people here.

That's good, I think...

>We eat them for breakfast on
>buttered toast. :)

I don't understand that idiomatic phrase.


>
>Tell us about your cats? A few pitchers, maybe?

Just got back from a camp meeting Saturday, and have been running
back and forth. Now I gotta cut out
for a couple more days.... AND work on a few computers.

There are some pics of when my four were kittens, and a couple of
Trixie (RB). I'll post upload them this week sometime.

I gotta take some more pics of Nelda, Sisko, Trisha, and Boudicca.
They are all grown up now (two years old).
I'll try and get some new pics posted in the next few days.

Purrs for Nelda, please. She has asthma, and we haven't identified
the allergen yet. I'm sure it's cooking fumes, from which foods or
oils, I haven't figured out yet.


If the site is up (fingers crossed), I have an old outdoor shot of
Trixie on Shuttercity. R.I.P.

<http://shuttercity.com/ShowPhoto.cfm?PhotoID=62935>
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

cybercat
July 25th 06, 03:14 AM
"~^Johnny^~" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Jul 2006 15:40:02 +0200, "cybercat" > wrote:
>
> >We like thenthitive people here.
>
> That's good, I think...
>
> >We eat them for breakfast on
> >buttered toast. :)
>
> I don't understand that idiomatic phrase.
>
I was just playing. :)

> There are some pics of when my four were kittens, and a couple of
> Trixie (RB). I'll post upload them this week sometime.

Johnny, Trixie was regal looking!

Who are the babies in "Mousepad Warmers?"

I looked at every picture, you take compelling photos, if
they are all yours. I especially liked:

Light at the End of the Tunnel
Living Dangerously
Grey on Grey and
Sleepy Sidewalk

but they are all pretty good.

You seem to like to photograph the old, down-at-the-heel
places in cities, I have enjoyed that too. (I have no photo sites
at the moment, though, and am not a photographer anyway.)

> Purrs for Nelda, please. She has asthma, and we haven't identified
> the allergen yet. I'm sure it's cooking fumes, from which foods or
> oils, I haven't figured out yet.
>

If you "Google" this group for it you will find lots of discussion.
Maybe you will want to get her one of the kitty inhalers.
Thanks for posting the photos.

~^Johnny^~
July 25th 06, 07:33 AM
[forwarded to the owners of Tasha and Taneka]

On 25 Jul 2006 04:14:16 +0200, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>Johnny, Trixie was regal looking!

Yes, she was.

>Who are the babies in "Mousepad Warmers?"

Sisko, Trisha, and Boudicca.
Nelda was there too, but off-frame.


>
>I looked at every picture, you take compelling photos, if
>they are all yours.

Thanks. Yes, they are, but no way can I compete with
many others on Shuttercity. But it would take you hours just to
go back a few days, by clicking on "most recent photos", even with a
broadband internet connection.

See my list of favorites, and look at their stuff, if you want to
see some excellent photographic work, IMHO. Of course, taste is
diverse, so YMMV.

Thanks for the comments, though.

These are four fine cats, and three are littermates.
Nelda and Sisko are siblings, and Trisha is a first cousin.
The two moms were sisters. The moms were Tasha and Taneka, and there
are photos of them, somewhere... I'll have to find the links (on a
friend's website). Both Tasha and Taneka have since been spayed, but
they sure produced some fine litters (I think two litters apiece).

I've talked a little about the cats in alt.pets.cats
but I don't know if it got archived. I can't seem to find it on
Google.

Now this thread is becoming metetopic for sure...
but that's ok. :-)

--
-john

In order to define poor, we must define good, and good is subjective at best, at times.

~^Johnny^~
July 25th 06, 07:59 AM
On 23 Jul 2006 14:59:40 +0200, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>Really scary, especially if you have ever witnessed anyone in a
>dissociative state. I sure wouldn't let anyone give it to my cats.

To each his own, I guess.

Then, Diprivan (propofol) is probably the safest alternative.

I would never let any vet give Halothane or Isoflurane to my cats,
though. And yes, both do cause excitement, both during stage 2
induction and during recovery, unless another sedative is given to
lessen or mask the emergence effects of the Halo, Iso, Ketalar, or
whatever.

I used to believe in Brevital, but that was 30+ years ago.
Now we have Diprivan, which I believe is much better and safer.

But forget halogenated inhalants.


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
Always listen to experts. They will explain what
can't be done and why. Then do it. - Robert Heinlein
~~~~~~~~

~^Johnny^~
August 3rd 06, 05:04 AM
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:33:53 -0700, ~^Johnny^~
> wrote:

>this thread is becoming metetopic for sure...

Gotta love them tyops (sic). Metatopic, even.

Relying heavily on the command line, we dyslexic Unix sysadmins most
definitely do feel the brunt of our weakness, especially after we
totally hose a system, when typing a valid, but wrong, instruction.

My favorite shell command?

cat

(of course)

:-)




..
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
Marriage is the chief cause of divorce.
-Groucho Marx
~~~~~~~~