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View Full Version : Licky Granuloma - change to Hill's z/d, d/d or IVD Limited?


August 16th 06, 03:41 PM
As many of you know (and some have similar problems), my cat and I have
been battling her "licky granuloma" on her right hind leg for several years
now. I've gone from several depo medrol shot at the beginning to treating
her with 2.5 - 5 mg/day of Prednisolone with Tresaderm or Gentaved applied
topically when there's an outbreak. Her latest outbreak lasted two months
and I now have it under control (she's now taking 2.5 mg of Prednisolone
every other day).

I've decided to try to take her off her Purina Pro Plan Chicken and
Rice/Beef and Rice hard food diet (getting her off of Fancy Feast canned
food will be alot harder! At least the Fancy Feast doesn't have wheat and
corn).


I've been reading alot about the Hill's z/d and d/d diets. The z/d is the
more "allergy friendly" diet. D/D is good too, as it avoids the beef,
dairy, fish, corn and wheat that seem to affect cats with skin problems.

I've also read good stuff about the Innovative Veterinary Diet (IVD)
Limited Ingredients line.

Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as important, did
your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not snub his/her nose at it (as
my cat did with the IVD canned Venison and green peas).

cybercat
August 16th 06, 04:04 PM
> wrote in message
...
> As many of you know (and some have similar problems), my cat and I have
> been battling her "licky granuloma" on her right hind leg for several
years
> now. I've gone from several depo medrol shot at the beginning to treating
> her with 2.5 - 5 mg/day of Prednisolone with Tresaderm or Gentaved applied
> topically when there's an outbreak. Her latest outbreak lasted two months
> and I now have it under control (she's now taking 2.5 mg of Prednisolone
> every other day).
>
> I've decided to try to take her off her Purina Pro Plan Chicken and
> Rice/Beef and Rice hard food diet (getting her off of Fancy Feast canned
> food will be alot harder! At least the Fancy Feast doesn't have wheat and
> corn).
>

If you have it under control, why on earth change her diet?? And if you do,
there is no good reason for taking her off Fancy Feast, which has no known
allergens. Just change her dry food if you think it is a problem.

Rene S.
August 16th 06, 04:05 PM
> I've been reading alot about the Hill's z/d and d/d diets. The z/d is the
> more "allergy friendly" diet. D/D is good too, as it avoids the beef,
> dairy, fish, corn and wheat that seem to affect cats with skin problems.
>
> I've also read good stuff about the Innovative Veterinary Diet (IVD)
> Limited Ingredients line.
>
> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as important, did
> your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not snub his/her nose at it (as
> my cat did with the IVD canned Venison and green peas).

I had a friend who used the z/d for a cat who had an allergy problem.
She used it for several months but didn't see any improvement.

Might I suggest that you try a high-quality food that doesn't contain
corn/fillers instead of a prescrption food? Wellness canned is a good
food that I used on my Tucker for several years. Now I feed Nature's
Variety raw, another excellent food that contains 95% meat and 5%
veggies (no grains). You can check out them at www.naturesvariety.com
and www.omhpet.com Both have store locators.

I'm not affiliated with either company. I'm a consumer who has used
their products with great results. :)
Rene

Winnie
August 16th 06, 04:15 PM
I think IVD or IVD Select is the same as Med-Cal which is a
prescription food in Canada.
Rusty has been doing well on Medi -Cal's Preventive formula with his
urinary problems.
He is currently on Medi-Cal's Mature formula. The price is good too,
even lower than
some of the non-prescription cat food. Rusty only eats canned food on
the vet's order. He hasn't turned his nose on any food offered to him,
(except when he was on antibiotics)
even those that didn't agree with his tummy.
Rusty was also on Hill's I/D, S/D, C/D. Yes, he has been through the
merry go round of
food. Hope we don't have to change food again anytime soon.

Winnie

wrote:
> As many of you know (and some have similar problems), my cat and I have
> been battling her "licky granuloma" on her right hind leg for several years
> now. I've gone from several depo medrol shot at the beginning to treating
> her with 2.5 - 5 mg/day of Prednisolone with Tresaderm or Gentaved applied
> topically when there's an outbreak. Her latest outbreak lasted two months
> and I now have it under control (she's now taking 2.5 mg of Prednisolone
> every other day).
>
> I've decided to try to take her off her Purina Pro Plan Chicken and
> Rice/Beef and Rice hard food diet (getting her off of Fancy Feast canned
> food will be alot harder! At least the Fancy Feast doesn't have wheat and
> corn).
>
>
> I've been reading alot about the Hill's z/d and d/d diets. The z/d is the
> more "allergy friendly" diet. D/D is good too, as it avoids the beef,
> dairy, fish, corn and wheat that seem to affect cats with skin problems.
>
> I've also read good stuff about the Innovative Veterinary Diet (IVD)
> Limited Ingredients line.
>
> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as important, did
> your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not snub his/her nose at it (as
> my cat did with the IVD canned Venison and green peas).

August 16th 06, 04:26 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in :

>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> As many of you know (and some have similar problems), my cat and I
>> have been battling her "licky granuloma" on her right hind leg for
>> several
> years
>> now. I've gone from several depo medrol shot at the beginning to
>> treating her with 2.5 - 5 mg/day of Prednisolone with Tresaderm or
>> Gentaved applied topically when there's an outbreak. Her latest
>> outbreak lasted two months and I now have it under control (she's now
>> taking 2.5 mg of Prednisolone every other day).
>>
>> I've decided to try to take her off her Purina Pro Plan Chicken and
>> Rice/Beef and Rice hard food diet (getting her off of Fancy Feast
>> canned food will be alot harder! At least the Fancy Feast doesn't
>> have wheat and corn).
>>
>
> If you have it under control, why on earth change her diet?? And if
> you do, there is no good reason for taking her off Fancy Feast, which
> has no known allergens. Just change her dry food if you think it is a
> problem.
>
>
>

It's under control NOW for the time being. History shows that it usually
comes back within weeks (probably when the steroidal meds are completely
out of her system and the memory being itch free is gone)!

Rhonda
August 16th 06, 04:28 PM
Yes, we used IVD. We used mainly the duck, our cat liked it.

Bob had pancreatitus and we had to avoid the fillers and foods that
could trigger an attack. He did very well on IVD.

Rhonda

wrote:

> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as important, did
> your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not snub his/her nose at it (as
> my cat did with the IVD canned Venison and green peas).
>

August 16th 06, 04:40 PM
"Rene S." > wrote in
oups.com:


> I had a friend who used the z/d for a cat who had an allergy problem.
> She used it for several months but didn't see any improvement.


I reada similar responses to z/d on this board in a post from several years
ago.
>
> Might I suggest that you try a high-quality food that doesn't contain
> corn/fillers instead of a prescrption food? Wellness canned is a good
> food that I used on my Tucker for several years. Now I feed Nature's
> Variety raw, another excellent food that contains 95% meat and 5%
> veggies (no grains). You can check out them at www.naturesvariety.com
> and www.omhpet.com Both have store locators.


Thanks for the advice. Nature's Variety looks like a good food except that
the dry food contains some dairy. The canned food looks interesting and
very healthy. The raw food sort of frightens me (although I know that some
vets recommend it, especially holistic ones). I just worry about cats with
sensitive skin and stomachs (mine is prone to diarrhea when changing foods
too fast) trying a raw food diet. Some cats can adjust to anything (like
some people) while others just can't.


As far as Wellness goes, everyone knows the quality of the product. My cat
just wasn't too keen on its taste (for the canned food). Once again, the
dry food looks promising, although there are alot of ingredients in it,
whereas the Hills z/d, and d/d are just a few main ingredients with vitamin
and mineral additives.

Rene S.
August 16th 06, 04:59 PM
> Thanks for the advice. Nature's Variety looks like a good food except that
> the dry food contains some dairy. The canned food looks interesting and
> very healthy. The raw food sort of frightens me (although I know that some
> vets recommend it, especially holistic ones). I just worry about cats with
> sensitive skin and stomachs (mine is prone to diarrhea when changing foods
> too fast) trying a raw food diet. Some cats can adjust to anything (like
> some people) while others just can't.
>
>
> As far as Wellness goes, everyone knows the quality of the product. My cat
> just wasn't too keen on its taste (for the canned food). Once again, the
> dry food looks promising, although there are alot of ingredients in it,
> whereas the Hills z/d, and d/d are just a few main ingredients with vitamin
> and mineral additives.

I was frightened too with the raw diet but I see the results now and
won't go back. It's meant to replicate what a cat's diet would be in
the wild, and contains more digestive enzymes than even canned (which
are cooked out). The key is to switch over slowly, over a period of 1-2
weeks, so the system can adapt to it.

cybercat
August 16th 06, 05:18 PM
> wrote :
> >>
>
> It's under control NOW for the time being. History shows that it usually
> comes back within weeks (probably when the steroidal meds are completely
> out of her system and the memory being itch free is gone)!

Yes, I remember you! Since you last posted, my cat's granuloma seems to
have changed to the itchy kind. She is still on FF and Purina with Depo
shots
ever few months. She just scratches in those little baldish places in front
of her
ears. I first noticed it a couple of months ago, got her a Depo shot and
they
disappeared but now they are back. She has little sores there. :(

blkcatgal
August 17th 06, 04:36 AM
My cat gets the occasional sore on his mouth. My vet thought it may be a
food allergy. I'm not totally convinced it's a food allergy, however, I did
start feeding my cat the IVD....rabbit and peas...both canned and dried. My
cat loved both. Of course, I think he'd eat anything. I don't know if the
IVD made a difference because I later began feeding him regular food
(Wellness, PetGuard, Royal Canin) and he didn't develop any sores for a
couple of months. Unfortunately, he just developed one this week. But I'm
still not convinced it's a food allergy.

Sue
> wrote in message
...
> As many of you know (and some have similar problems), my cat and I have
> been battling her "licky granuloma" on her right hind leg for several
> years
> now. I've gone from several depo medrol shot at the beginning to treating
> her with 2.5 - 5 mg/day of Prednisolone with Tresaderm or Gentaved applied
> topically when there's an outbreak. Her latest outbreak lasted two months
> and I now have it under control (she's now taking 2.5 mg of Prednisolone
> every other day).
>
> I've decided to try to take her off her Purina Pro Plan Chicken and
> Rice/Beef and Rice hard food diet (getting her off of Fancy Feast canned
> food will be alot harder! At least the Fancy Feast doesn't have wheat and
> corn).
>
>
> I've been reading alot about the Hill's z/d and d/d diets. The z/d is the
> more "allergy friendly" diet. D/D is good too, as it avoids the beef,
> dairy, fish, corn and wheat that seem to affect cats with skin problems.
>
> I've also read good stuff about the Innovative Veterinary Diet (IVD)
> Limited Ingredients line.
>
> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as important,
> did
> your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not snub his/her nose at it (as
> my cat did with the IVD canned Venison and green peas).
>

August 17th 06, 04:48 PM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in
:

> I did start feeding my cat the IVD....rabbit and peas...both
> canned and dried. My cat loved both. Of course, I think he'd eat
> anything. I don't know if the IVD made a difference because I later
> began feeding him regular food (Wellness, PetGuard, Royal Canin) and
> he didn't develop any sores for a couple of months. Unfortunately, he
> just developed one this week. But I'm still not convinced it's a food
> allergy.
>
> Sue

>
>

Thanks for the advice. You've at least helped me make my mind as to what
flavor to get (although I don't like the thought of her eating those poor
rabbits!). I don't think she liked the venison, and I know she won't eat
Iams Lamb and Rice dry food.

I'm going to have to try the Hills D/D first, as my vet doesn't carry IVD
in the hard food. From a search of the ingredients on their websites, the
main difference is that Hills has fish oil in the d/d dry food line, while
IVD uses canola oil, and if a cat has a skin allergy, I believe I'm correct
in assuming fish s/b removed from their diet. If not, please respond.

Cheryl
August 18th 06, 03:44 AM
On Wed 16 Aug 2006 10:41:29a, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav
m):

> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as
> important, did your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not
> snub his/her nose at it (as my cat did with the IVD canned
> Venison and green peas).

Not with my allergy cat. We tried a diet trial of Hill's ZD but he
didn't eat it, was losing weight, and we tried the IVD. He wouldn't
eat the canned, and snubbed the dry, too.

I really feel for you with your kitty problems. All treatments for
Shamrock have failed (cleaned up environment, diet change, allergy
shots, omega 3 & 6 with chlortrimaton (SP), and finally cyclosporin
(Atopica - made him sick sick sick). We're back to just Depo
shots, and he had one close to two months ago (after one that
failed to give him relief the month before, then a round of
antibotics) and he's already starting to get little bumps again.
I'm thinking about starting him back on the allergy shots. While
they didn't eliminate the need for Depo shots, they did reduce the
frequency.

--
Cheryl

Inge Grotjahn
August 18th 06, 11:22 AM
Am 18.08.2006 schrieb Cheryl:

> We're back to just Depo shots, and he had one close to two months
> ago (after one that failed to give him relief the month before,
> then a round of antibotics) and he's already starting to get little
> bumps again. I'm thinking about starting him back on the allergy
> shots. While they didn't eliminate the need for Depo shots, they
> did reduce the frequency.

Our Tientje is suffering from Eosinophile Granuloma and used to have
those Cortisone depot shots for many years. The problem with the depot
is, that it works fine for the first days but the effect will be less
after that. The time between two shots was shorter the longer he got
the depot. Finally the depot didn't work at all.

In addition Tientje developed a diabetes mellitus, coming from the
depot shots.

What we do now: Tientje doesn't get any depots anymore and when his
granuloma breaks out, we treat him with Prednisolone tablets as long
as it takes. Between two outbreaks he stays untreated.

The diabetes disappeared when we stopped the depot shots.

Purrs to you
Inge and the catgang
--
CatManiacs World: http://www.gwsystems.com/inge

femcat
August 18th 06, 09:47 PM
Cheryl > wrote in news:[email protected]
130.133.1.4:

> On Wed 16 Aug 2006 10:41:29a, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> m):
>
>> Has anyone had any luck with any of these foods, and just as
>> important, did your cat eat the food (dry or canned) and not
>> snub his/her nose at it (as my cat did with the IVD canned
>> Venison and green peas).
>
> Not with my allergy cat. We tried a diet trial of Hill's ZD but he
> didn't eat it, was losing weight, and we tried the IVD. He wouldn't
> eat the canned, and snubbed the dry, too.
>
> I really feel for you with your kitty problems. All treatments for
> Shamrock have failed (cleaned up environment, diet change, allergy
> shots, omega 3 & 6 with chlortrimaton (SP), and finally cyclosporin
> (Atopica - made him sick sick sick). We're back to just Depo
> shots, and he had one close to two months ago (after one that
> failed to give him relief the month before, then a round of
> antibotics) and he's already starting to get little bumps again.
> I'm thinking about starting him back on the allergy shots. While
> they didn't eliminate the need for Depo shots, they did reduce the
> frequency.
>

My vet told me that it's possible that the cats build up a tolerance to
the Depo shots and Prenisolone pill treatments (just like humans) and
they become less effective after awhile. He said that you then have to
try another plan of treatment. For now, we seem to have her wounds under
control with the Prednisolone and I just have to see what the effect of
taking wheat gluten and corn out of her diet is. I seem to remember that
her licking started around the time we switched her to Purina Pro Plan.
Let's see what the various brands of Hills d/d or z/d (or IVD
accomplish).

Cheryl, I know from posting and reading that you're another "partner" in
the fight about this feline skin problem. It seems that every time I
read a post in the newsgoups or Yahoo groups about granuloma in cats,
there's never an easy solution other than the shots. Everyone subjects
the cat to a load of tests but the vets are always stumped. That's why I
can't see putting my little thing through a blood workup. I had it once
before and the look on her face along with the yelping was very hard to
take. I would only allow another blood test if it were absolutely
necessary.

Regarding the food -the problem with trying it is that if she doesn't
like it, it's $18 down the drain for each bag. I don't mind it, because
if a topical med doesn't work, that also will cost $20. You just have to
hope it's food allergy and you find the right protein or ingredient.

The one problem I'm going to have is that there's no way to keep her off
of Fancy Feast. She won't eat any other canned food (but I make sure I
only give her the chicken or turkey without corn or wheat additives.)
Unfortunately, although it says turkey or chicken, there's always some
dairy and liver ingredients, too.

Cheryl
August 19th 06, 04:01 AM
On Fri 18 Aug 2006 04:47:34p, femcat wrote in
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
):

> My vet told me that it's possible that the cats build up a
> tolerance to the Depo shots and Prenisolone pill treatments
> (just like humans) and they become less effective after awhile.
> He said that you then have to try another plan of treatment.
> For now, we seem to have her wounds under control with the
> Prednisolone and I just have to see what the effect of taking
> wheat gluten and corn out of her diet is. I seem to remember
> that her licking started around the time we switched her to
> Purina Pro Plan. Let's see what the various brands of Hills d/d
> or z/d (or IVD accomplish).
>
I wish you luck with that. Another of my cats, Rhett, had some
sores around his anus and penis that were cleared up by a steroid
shot and a round of Clavamox. It also occurred to me that it
started after he started eating some of Bonnie's Pro
Plan/California Natural dry food mix. After his problem, I quit
adding Pro Plan to her food and his skin ulcers haven't come back.
He must be intolerant of wheat/corn products, too. He mostly eats
Science Diet Sensitive Stomach dry food because he had severe
diarrhea as a kitten, and this food stopped it and his stools have
been normal ever since. He will not eat canned food even though he
got only canned from the time I got him at 8 weeks. One day he just
quit eating it. He was weaned on Purina Kitten Chow, so that might
have something to do with it. I do have to say that lately he's
started eating canned food - he likes Fancy Feast Chopped Grill,
Gourmet chicken, and Gourmet Chicken and Beef. I havne't checked
these for gluten meals, so this is a reminder to do so.

> Cheryl, I know from posting and reading that you're another
> "partner" in the fight about this feline skin problem. It seems
> that every time I read a post in the newsgoups or Yahoo groups
> about granuloma in cats, there's never an easy solution other
> than the shots. Everyone subjects the cat to a load of tests
> but the vets are always stumped. That's why I can't see putting
> my little thing through a blood workup. I had it once before
> and the look on her face along with the yelping was very hard to
> take. I would only allow another blood test if it were
> absolutely necessary.
>
I just felt that I had to do everything to try to find the problem
and try to cure it. You're right though. I think vet
dermatologists have high hopes that they can cure the skin problems
that plague our little furry friends, but maybe they have their
hopes too high? Shamrock was initially diagnosed with EGC, and when
I read that it could be idiopathic, but was most likely an allergy
to something, I felt I owed it to him to find his allergy and
either eliminate his exposure, or build up his ability to fight it
off with allergy shots, or maybe interferon? I've read that can
work. However, Shamrock was on Interferon when Shadow was sick with
feline leukemia. It didn't help his allergies.

> Regarding the food -the problem with trying it is that if she
> doesn't like it, it's $18 down the drain for each bag. I don't
> mind it, because if a topical med doesn't work, that also will
> cost $20. You just have to hope it's food allergy and you find
> the right protein or ingredient.
>
Don't forget that the combination of a food allergy and a seasonal
environmental allergy can make certain times of the year even worse
for them. When one allergen is present, their bodies might be able
to fight it. When two or more are present in both the food and the
environment, it becomes too much, and skin erruptions are the
result. I still have to wonder about something our vet
dermatologist told me: it's rare for an animal to have both
environmental and food allergies at the same time.

> The one problem I'm going to have is that there's no way to keep
> her off of Fancy Feast. She won't eat any other canned food
> (but I make sure I only give her the chicken or turkey without
> corn or wheat additives.) Unfortunately, although it says turkey
> or chicken, there's always some dairy and liver ingredients,
> too.

I hear ya. I guess we're both at the same place. What do you do
when what you've been doing doesn't work anymore? You certainly
can't let a cat get sores and lesions to the point of bleeding if
there's no way to stop them from happening. QOL. But what is the
flip side? Euthanize them for itching? I battle this all the time.
When Shamrock is in full outbreak, he does nothing but bite
himself. He will even stop eating and playing, and do nothing but
bite himself and sleep. He's a young cat. It breaks my heart when
we have to wait to get another shot because of the risk of side
effects.

Shamrock came to me as a foster of anywhere between 6 months - year
old. He was already broken out with huge sores, and the rescue
group said he'd been in a fight. When they didn't go away, he got a
depo shot and that made them go away. Allergy, they said, and it
was reinforced when the sores came back in a couple of months. This
is what made it hard to determine what triggered them. Which is
why I took him to an allergist to have him tested. When so many of
the allergen injections in the grid puffed up, it was no wonder he
was miserable during every season of the year.

--
Cheryl

femcat
August 19th 06, 04:12 PM
Cheryl > wrote in news:[email protected]
130.133.1.4:

> He will even stop eating and playing, and do nothing but
> bite himself and sleep. He's a young cat. It breaks my heart when
> we have to wait to get another shot because of the risk of side
> effects.
>
> Shamrock came to me as a foster of anywhere between 6 months - year
> old. He was already broken out with huge sores, and the rescue
> group said he'd been in a fight. When they didn't go away, he got a
> depo shot and that made them go away. Allergy, they said, and it
> was reinforced when the sores came back in a couple of months. This
> is what made it hard to determine what triggered them. Which is
> why I took him to an allergist to have him tested. When so many of
> the allergen injections in the grid puffed up, it was no wonder he
> was miserable during every season of the year.



It breaks my heart to hear that Shamrock has such a tough time with this.
You would think the rescue group would make a deal with a vet (or that a
vet himself) would consider this a special case and give you a break on
treatment.

Vets must know that cats with skin conditions are hard to treat and it
can be costly for the owner. It would be nice if they would just give
free samples to try. Is there not a topical you could use that would
reduce the swelling and the desire to itch?

When you took him to the allergist, did he determine any food allergies
(and what did he say was the definitive treatment for a cat with alot of
allergies)?

Cheryl - have you tried joining any of the Yahoo cat fanciers newsgroups
or corresponding with any vets listed on the Animal Medical Center site
in NYC:

http://www.amcny.org/asp/homepage/default.asp

Some of the vets there have no problem answering their e-mails. Even
though you might not be able to travel there, there might be treatments
they would be willing to share.

This is the site of a vet in NYC who (I think) only handles cats. There
was an article about him recently in one of the morning tabloids:

"The soft-spoken, 46-year-old veterinarian is a certified diplomate in
feline medicine — a rare credential for a New York City pet doctor."

http://www.manhattancats.com/


He has a alot of feline health info on his site and I pulled this one
from the skin problems area because it so describes the problem we have:


"Allergies to airborne substances (called “atopy”) such as pollens or
dust can lead to itching and subsequent excessive grooming and hair loss.
Miliary dermatitis is another common manifestation of atopy. Achieving a
diagnosis can be tricky. Clinical signs that are seasonal are suggestive
of atopy, although signs can be seen all year round as well. Blood tests
can be performed to see if the cat is allergic to plants indigenous to a
particular geographic region as well as to common household dusts and
mites, although some dermatologists still feel the blood tests to be
unreliable. Intradermal skin testing, in which tiny amounts of
allergenic substances are injected into the skin and the skin reaction
noted, is a more meaningful diagnostic test. This should be performed by
an experienced veterinary dermatologist, however, as the skin response to
the injections can be subtle and more difficult to interpret in cats.
Specific treatment of an allergy is possible if the allergen(s) can be
identified and avoided or removed from the environment. Often, this is
not practical, especially in patients allergic to airborne pollens.
Hyposensitization – serial injections of progressively larger amounts of
the offending allergen – is probably the most appropriate long-term
control method for cats with a prolonged allergy season. Other therapies
that can be considered are anti-histamines, omega-3 fatty acids, and
corticosteroids. Although steroids have the potential to have side
effects, the doses necessary to control allergic dermatitis are unlikely
to cause problems, especially in cats, as cats are more resistant to the
undesirable side effects of steroids as compared to dogs."

blkcatgal
August 19th 06, 05:53 PM
This is all very interesting to me. My cat Ernie gets an occasional swollen
lip which my vet has told me is probably allergy-related. She suggested
feeding him the limited ingredient food which hasn't been easy. He likes
the food, that's not the problem. My other cat doesn't like the limited
ingredient food as much so I usually feed him something different. And it's
tough keeping Ernie out of this food.

I'm really interested in this theory about wheat gluten and corn or other
grains. I can find canned food without grains (Wellness is now grain free).
Are there any commercially sold dry foods that don't contain wheat gluten or
corn?

Sue

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri 18 Aug 2006 04:47:34p, femcat wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
> ):
>
>> My vet told me that it's possible that the cats build up a
>> tolerance to the Depo shots and Prenisolone pill treatments
>> (just like humans) and they become less effective after awhile.
>> He said that you then have to try another plan of treatment.
>> For now, we seem to have her wounds under control with the
>> Prednisolone and I just have to see what the effect of taking
>> wheat gluten and corn out of her diet is. I seem to remember
>> that her licking started around the time we switched her to
>> Purina Pro Plan. Let's see what the various brands of Hills d/d
>> or z/d (or IVD accomplish).
>>
> I wish you luck with that. Another of my cats, Rhett, had some
> sores around his anus and penis that were cleared up by a steroid
> shot and a round of Clavamox. It also occurred to me that it
> started after he started eating some of Bonnie's Pro
> Plan/California Natural dry food mix. After his problem, I quit
> adding Pro Plan to her food and his skin ulcers haven't come back.
> He must be intolerant of wheat/corn products, too. He mostly eats
> Science Diet Sensitive Stomach dry food because he had severe
> diarrhea as a kitten, and this food stopped it and his stools have
> been normal ever since. He will not eat canned food even though he
> got only canned from the time I got him at 8 weeks. One day he just
> quit eating it. He was weaned on Purina Kitten Chow, so that might
> have something to do with it. I do have to say that lately he's
> started eating canned food - he likes Fancy Feast Chopped Grill,
> Gourmet chicken, and Gourmet Chicken and Beef. I havne't checked
> these for gluten meals, so this is a reminder to do so.
>
>> Cheryl, I know from posting and reading that you're another
>> "partner" in the fight about this feline skin problem. It seems
>> that every time I read a post in the newsgoups or Yahoo groups
>> about granuloma in cats, there's never an easy solution other
>> than the shots. Everyone subjects the cat to a load of tests
>> but the vets are always stumped. That's why I can't see putting
>> my little thing through a blood workup. I had it once before
>> and the look on her face along with the yelping was very hard to
>> take. I would only allow another blood test if it were
>> absolutely necessary.
>>
> I just felt that I had to do everything to try to find the problem
> and try to cure it. You're right though. I think vet
> dermatologists have high hopes that they can cure the skin problems
> that plague our little furry friends, but maybe they have their
> hopes too high? Shamrock was initially diagnosed with EGC, and when
> I read that it could be idiopathic, but was most likely an allergy
> to something, I felt I owed it to him to find his allergy and
> either eliminate his exposure, or build up his ability to fight it
> off with allergy shots, or maybe interferon? I've read that can
> work. However, Shamrock was on Interferon when Shadow was sick with
> feline leukemia. It didn't help his allergies.
>
>> Regarding the food -the problem with trying it is that if she
>> doesn't like it, it's $18 down the drain for each bag. I don't
>> mind it, because if a topical med doesn't work, that also will
>> cost $20. You just have to hope it's food allergy and you find
>> the right protein or ingredient.
>>
> Don't forget that the combination of a food allergy and a seasonal
> environmental allergy can make certain times of the year even worse
> for them. When one allergen is present, their bodies might be able
> to fight it. When two or more are present in both the food and the
> environment, it becomes too much, and skin erruptions are the
> result. I still have to wonder about something our vet
> dermatologist told me: it's rare for an animal to have both
> environmental and food allergies at the same time.
>
>> The one problem I'm going to have is that there's no way to keep
>> her off of Fancy Feast. She won't eat any other canned food
>> (but I make sure I only give her the chicken or turkey without
>> corn or wheat additives.) Unfortunately, although it says turkey
>> or chicken, there's always some dairy and liver ingredients,
>> too.
>
> I hear ya. I guess we're both at the same place. What do you do
> when what you've been doing doesn't work anymore? You certainly
> can't let a cat get sores and lesions to the point of bleeding if
> there's no way to stop them from happening. QOL. But what is the
> flip side? Euthanize them for itching? I battle this all the time.
> When Shamrock is in full outbreak, he does nothing but bite
> himself. He will even stop eating and playing, and do nothing but
> bite himself and sleep. He's a young cat. It breaks my heart when
> we have to wait to get another shot because of the risk of side
> effects.
>
> Shamrock came to me as a foster of anywhere between 6 months - year
> old. He was already broken out with huge sores, and the rescue
> group said he'd been in a fight. When they didn't go away, he got a
> depo shot and that made them go away. Allergy, they said, and it
> was reinforced when the sores came back in a couple of months. This
> is what made it hard to determine what triggered them. Which is
> why I took him to an allergist to have him tested. When so many of
> the allergen injections in the grid puffed up, it was no wonder he
> was miserable during every season of the year.
>
> --
> Cheryl
>

Monique Y. Mudama
August 19th 06, 07:30 PM
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes.] On 2006-08-19,
blkcatgal penned:
>
> I'm really interested in this theory about wheat gluten and corn or
> other grains. I can find canned food without grains (Wellness is
> now grain free). Are there any commercially sold dry foods that
> don't contain wheat gluten or corn?

Innova Evo:

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B%40id%3D%271255%27%5D

Oscar really likes it. It's what I feed her if I have to give her dry
(ie, I won't be home for mealtimes, or when she's wearing that stupid
e-collar).



--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

femcat
August 20th 06, 04:10 AM
"blkcatgal" > wrote in
:

> I'm really interested in this theory about wheat gluten and corn or
> other grains. I can find canned food without grains (Wellness is now
> grain free). Are there any commercially sold dry foods that don't
> contain wheat gluten or corn?


If you go with the supermarket varieties, some of the Fancy Feast canned
flavors don't have corn or wheat gluten. Check the ingredients. I think
you may be able to find it online, too.

Cheryl
August 21st 06, 01:34 AM
On Sat 19 Aug 2006 12:53:47p, blkcatgal wrote in
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
):

> This is all very interesting to me. My cat Ernie gets an
> occasional swollen lip which my vet has told me is probably
> allergy-related. She suggested feeding him the limited
> ingredient food which hasn't been easy. He likes the food,
> that's not the problem. My other cat doesn't like the limited
> ingredient food as much so I usually feed him something
> different. And it's tough keeping Ernie out of this food.
>
Same with Shamrock. I have to try to keep it all out of the house,
but his vet dermatologist said it's rare to have the environment
allergens that he does and for there to be a food allergy too. I'm
skeptic about that, but she's the expert. I learned about the
effect of the combination of allergens from a book, Pet Allergies
by Alfred Plechner. (read about it at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0961545208/103-2542378-5334237?v=glance&n=283155

> I'm really interested in this theory about wheat gluten and corn
> or other grains. I can find canned food without grains
> (Wellness is now grain free). Are there any commercially sold
> dry foods that don't contain wheat gluten or corn?

A lot of the fancy feast and friskies brands, and Sheba, are
corn/wheat free. You just have to read the labels because they all
aren't.

--
Cheryl

"Cowboy take me away. Fly this girl as high as you can into the
wild blue. Set me free oh, I pray. Closer to heaven above and
closer to you."

Cheryl
August 21st 06, 01:38 AM
On Fri 18 Aug 2006 04:47:34p, femcat wrote in
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
):

> Cheryl, I know from posting and reading that you're another
> "partner" in the fight about this feline skin problem. It seems
> that every time I read a post in the newsgoups or Yahoo groups
> about granuloma in cats, there's never an easy solution other
> than the shots. Everyone subjects the cat to a load of tests
> but the vets are always stumped. That's why I can't see putting
> my little thing through a blood workup. I had it once before
> and the look on her face along with the yelping was very hard to
> take. I would only allow another blood test if it were
> absolutely necessary.

I understand. Now, I definitely do. None of the tests that Shamrock
went through have really helped him. The allergy shots didn't, and
I can't eliminate his allergens from the environment. He's even
allergic to cat dander, so he's allergic to himself. At least the
tests told us that. The tests also told us that the thing every vet
said was his problem, wasn't. He tested negative to flea bites.

I'm going to check out some of your cites, and if I can be a
"partner" in this fight, we'll do all we can.

--
Cheryl

"Cowboy take me away. Fly this girl as high as you can into the
wild blue. Set me free oh, I pray. Closer to heaven above and
closer to you."

-L.
August 21st 06, 07:08 AM
Cheryl wrote:
> I understand. Now, I definitely do. None of the tests that Shamrock
> went through have really helped him. The allergy shots didn't, and
> I can't eliminate his allergens from the environment. He's even
> allergic to cat dander, so he's allergic to himself. At least the
> tests told us that. The tests also told us that the thing every vet
> said was his problem, wasn't. He tested negative to flea bites.
>
> I'm going to check out some of your cites, and if I can be a
> "partner" in this fight, we'll do all we can.
>
> --
> Cheryl

My feeling has always been that the granuloma complexes are auto-immune
related diseases. As such, they're very complex and not easily solved.

-L.

cybercat
August 21st 06, 10:16 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Cheryl wrote:
> > I understand. Now, I definitely do. None of the tests that Shamrock
> > went through have really helped him. The allergy shots didn't, and
> > I can't eliminate his allergens from the environment. He's even
> > allergic to cat dander, so he's allergic to himself. At least the
> > tests told us that. The tests also told us that the thing every vet
> > said was his problem, wasn't. He tested negative to flea bites.
> >
> > I'm going to check out some of your cites, and if I can be a
> > "partner" in this fight, we'll do all we can.
> >
> > --
> > Cheryl
>
> My feeling has always been that the granuloma complexes are auto-immune
> related diseases. As such, they're very complex and not easily solved.
>

Yes, after four years of successful treatment, Gracie now has the itchy kind
(I guess that is what people are calling "licky") and it comes back a single
month after the Depo shot. There is no way I am giving her shots more than
four times a year, so I am not sure what to do. But she has little red marks
and some small scabs in front of her ears, and her ears look "patchy," kind
of moth-eaten. I have not changed her food, or any of my household cleaners,
nothing. I might try bottled water and see if that helps.

-L.
August 22nd 06, 01:37 AM
cybercat wrote:
>
> Yes, after four years of successful treatment, Gracie now has the itchy kind
> (I guess that is what people are calling "licky") and it comes back a single
> month after the Depo shot. There is no way I am giving her shots more than
> four times a year, so I am not sure what to do. But she has little red marks
> and some small scabs in front of her ears, and her ears look "patchy," kind
> of moth-eaten. I have not changed her food, or any of my household cleaners,
> nothing. I might try bottled water and see if that helps.

I think Depo gets a bad rep more than it should. Quality of life *is*
an issue, afterall. True "lick graulomas" usually develop *after*
licking - dogs get them after licking themselves when nervous, for
example. I'm not sure why in this case the vet called the lesions
"licky" except that the cat was licking them. "Systemic eosinophlic
granuloma" is a better description, IMO.

-L.

cybercat
August 22nd 06, 01:44 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> cybercat wrote:
> >
> > Yes, after four years of successful treatment, Gracie now has the itchy
kind
> > (I guess that is what people are calling "licky") and it comes back a
single
> > month after the Depo shot.

> I think Depo gets a bad rep more than it should. Quality of life *is*
> an issue, afterall. True "lick graulomas" usually develop *after*
> licking - dogs get them after licking themselves when nervous, for
> example.

Well this makes sense because when she is upset she does overgroom.
I posted in the past about how she would groom herself bald--not pulling
the fur out but licking--when she was upset. I know that is what is was
because as soon as I figured out what was bothering her and corrected
it she stopped. But this time it is her ears and it seems much worse. But
WAIT a minute ... she sure can't lick there. Could it be something else?
The vet saw it but said nothing last time I took her in. Her ears look
motheaten, like there are little see-through spots, and then there are
raw spots from her scratching the balding areas in front of her ears.
Have you seen this before?

-L.
August 22nd 06, 05:58 AM
cybercat wrote:
> Well this makes sense because when she is upset she does overgroom.
> I posted in the past about how she would groom herself bald--not pulling
> the fur out but licking--when she was upset. I know that is what is was
> because as soon as I figured out what was bothering her and corrected
> it she stopped. But this time it is her ears and it seems much worse. But
> WAIT a minute ... she sure can't lick there. Could it be something else?

Could be systemic ECG and she's just getting lesions on her ears. No
un-heard-of, but nit common, I'd say.

> The vet saw it but said nothing last time I took her in. Her ears look
> motheaten, like there are little see-through spots, and then there are
> raw spots from her scratching the balding areas in front of her ears.
> Have you seen this before?

Hum...that almost sounds like ringworm. I would take her in again for
a consult. Have them sample the lesion and check for ringworm just in
case - the test should be under $25.

-L.

C.J.
August 22nd 06, 06:13 AM
"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hum...that almost sounds like ringworm. I would take her in again for
> a consult. Have them sample the lesion and check for ringworm just in
> case - the test should be under $25.
>

I thought about that, but she's never out in the dirt and I keep both the
boxes
and the house clean enough. I just googled it, and I see it is related to
Athlete's
foot fungus--nobody in the house has ever had that or signs of ringworm.
(And
if she has it I should too, I am always in her face and she sleeps snuggled
with
me.) It sure can't hurt to have it checked out. Thanks. I will take her in
this week.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

-L.
August 22nd 06, 06:23 AM
C.J. wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hum...that almost sounds like ringworm. I would take her in again for
> > a consult. Have them sample the lesion and check for ringworm just in
> > case - the test should be under $25.
> >
>
> I thought about that, but she's never out in the dirt and I keep both the
> boxes
> and the house clean enough. I just googled it, and I see it is related to
> Athlete's
> foot fungus--nobody in the house has ever had that or signs of ringworm.
> (And
> if she has it I should too, I am always in her face and she sleeps snuggled
> with
> me.) It sure can't hurt to have it checked out. Thanks. I will take her in
> this week.
>

They can get ringworm from the air or tracked in from your shoes - the
spores are everywhere. Peewee gets it ocassionally because he's just
suceptible. Nobody else ever gets it (except Mimi and I did once, when
Pee was a tiny kitten.)

-L.

cybercat
August 22nd 06, 07:08 AM
"-L." > wrote
> >
>
> They can get ringworm from the air or tracked in from your shoes - the
> spores are everywhere. Peewee gets it ocassionally because he's just
> suceptible. Nobody else ever gets it (except Mimi and I did once, when
> Pee was a tiny kitten.)
>

I had no idea. I looked at her more closely tonight, and I just don't know,
I've never seen ringworm and hers does not look like the pictures I found
on the web. One thing is for sure: I would rather it be ringworm and easily
curable than a new manifestation of EGC.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cheryl
August 23rd 06, 01:19 AM
On Mon 21 Aug 2006 02:08:35a, -L. wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
oups.com):

>
> Cheryl wrote:
>> I understand. Now, I definitely do. None of the tests that
>> Shamrock went through have really helped him. The allergy shots
>> didn't, and I can't eliminate his allergens from the
>> environment. He's even allergic to cat dander, so he's allergic
>> to himself. At least the tests told us that. The tests also
>> told us that the thing every vet said was his problem, wasn't.
>> He tested negative to flea bites.
>>
>> I'm going to check out some of your cites, and if I can be a
>> "partner" in this fight, we'll do all we can.
>>
>> --
>> Cheryl
>
> My feeling has always been that the granuloma complexes are
> auto-immune related diseases. As such, they're very complex and
> not easily solved.
>
> -L.
>
>

I agree. That's why he isn't getting vaccinations right now. The
dermatologist suggested getting his vaccinations up to date before
starting Atopica, but I didn't have them done based on all of my
reading. His regular vet is ok with that. I know she is worried
about the rabies vaccine since it is a law that it be done, but she
knows he's an indoor cat, so at lesser (NOT no risk) risk of being
infected. I wish there were an easier answer to vaccinations. He's
no longer on the Atopica since it made him so nauseous. Atopica
****s with the immune system, too. Lowers it. Just like steroids
do, but I don't know if it lowers it more than steroids. Probably.
They use it for transplant patients.

--
Cheryl