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22brix
August 18th 06, 02:13 AM
I just gave Molly 200 cc Ringers Lactate subq--this was my first time and I
was quite nervous. She handled it like a trooper--ate treats and sat there
very quietly until I was done, licked my fingers a couple of times and then
jumped off my lap like nothing had happened. The only glitch was that I
backed out the needle once and a little fluid spilled. I hope, hope, hope
it continues this easily. She's been dehydrated and lethargic and she
probably has some kidney issues. She's 16 plus years and has had some health
problems but nothing too terrible. I know with crf that will change but for
right now I'm happy she seems to tolerate the subq injection.

The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today--her appetite seems better
today but she's been eating only one thing and that's tuna (catfood--not
human). Any suggestions on how to expand her repertoire of acceptable food
choices? The vet said that right now calories were more important but I
would like to get her eating something better for her kidneys.

I appreciate hearing other people's experiences with both the fluid
administration and the dietary issues.

Thank you, Bonnie

Cheryl
August 18th 06, 03:33 AM
On Thu 17 Aug 2006 09:13:48p, 22brix wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
):

> I appreciate hearing other people's experiences with both the
> fluid administration and the dietary issues.

Congrats on the successful injection! I don't have experience to
offer with that, but I was giving my cat allergy shot injections, and
may start again since I think they at least kept the needed frequency
lower. All I can say is try to make it a happy experience. I'm
afraid I don't know the reason for your cats need for fluids; kidney
disease? If so, treats wouldn't be good like they would with my cats
allergy shots. I do know that he responded positively with
encouraging words like "good boy" and lots of hugs and pets.

Best wishes and good luck to both of you.

--
Cheryl

Rhonda
August 18th 06, 04:23 AM
We've recently done sub-cu, that needle is scary! I'm glad your cat (and
you) did so well. The only issue we had was after it was over and
pulling out the needle. Many times, she would leak back out of the skin.
I watched a vet do it and they actually grab the skin in that area and
pinch it closed for several minutes (they hold a big fold of skin.) I
just used a kleenex and held it tightly against her for a few minutes.

As for trying to eat, we've had good luck with a wet food from Pro Plan,
it has sardines in it. Our vet emergency hospital clued us in to that --
they use it on their recovering cats because it is so stinky. Have you
tried A/D also? It's a soft, prescription food that is packed with
nutrients for cats not eating well, and many cats really like it.

I don't know about how these are on kidneys, but I would agree with your
vet that the first consideration is just getting something into her.
Maybe once you find something she is eating with gusto, you can start
slowly mixing in a food that is better for her kidneys (we used
prescription NF for our renal failure cat.)

Good luck,

Rhonda

22brix wrote:
> I just gave Molly 200 cc Ringers Lactate subq--this was my first time and I
> was quite nervous. She handled it like a trooper--ate treats and sat there
> very quietly until I was done, licked my fingers a couple of times and then
> jumped off my lap like nothing had happened. The only glitch was that I
> backed out the needle once and a little fluid spilled. I hope, hope, hope
> it continues this easily. She's been dehydrated and lethargic and she
> probably has some kidney issues. She's 16 plus years and has had some health
> problems but nothing too terrible. I know with crf that will change but for
> right now I'm happy she seems to tolerate the subq injection.
>
> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today--her appetite seems better
> today but she's been eating only one thing and that's tuna (catfood--not
> human). Any suggestions on how to expand her repertoire of acceptable food
> choices? The vet said that right now calories were more important but I
> would like to get her eating something better for her kidneys.
>
> I appreciate hearing other people's experiences with both the fluid
> administration and the dietary issues.
>
> Thank you, Bonnie
>
>

22brix
August 18th 06, 05:24 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu 17 Aug 2006 09:13:48p, 22brix wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav
> ):
>
>> I appreciate hearing other people's experiences with both the
>> fluid administration and the dietary issues.
>
> Congrats on the successful injection! I don't have experience to
> offer with that, but I was giving my cat allergy shot injections, and
> may start again since I think they at least kept the needed frequency
> lower. All I can say is try to make it a happy experience. I'm
> afraid I don't know the reason for your cats need for fluids; kidney
> disease? If so, treats wouldn't be good like they would with my cats
> allergy shots. I do know that he responded positively with
> encouraging words like "good boy" and lots of hugs and pets.
>
> Best wishes and good luck to both of you.
>
> --
> Cheryl


Thanks for your response! We're pretty sure it's kidney disease. Her BUN
and Creatinine have been normal but on the high side consistently for
several years. My vet is doing blood work--we should know more tomorrow.

I hadn't thought about the treats. Rats. She's deaf so verbal praise
doesn't do much for her. She does like the petting and stroking but it's
always nice to get treats too!

Bonnie

22brix
August 18th 06, 05:35 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> The only issue we had was after it was over and pulling out the needle.
> Many times, she would leak back out of the skin.

This happened with Molly, also. She's amazingly tolerant of this--I've
always called her my bomb-proof cat and she certainly is holding true to
form! I've heard that cats don't always tolerate fluid administration. My
mother had a cat with CRF that hated the whole thing so much she began to
run and hide from my mother. It really can destroy any trust a cat has with
a person.

>
> As for trying to eat, we've had good luck with a wet food from Pro Plan,
> it has sardines in it. Our vet emergency hospital clued us in to that --
> they use it on their recovering cats because it is so stinky. Have you
> tried A/D also? It's a soft, prescription food that is packed with
> nutrients for cats not eating well, and many cats really like it.

Is A/D a Hills product--do you have to get it through the vets? We tried her
on one of the kidney diets two or three years ago and she adamantly refused
to eat it--sigh.

> I don't know about how these are on kidneys, but I would agree with your
> vet that the first consideration is just getting something into her. Maybe
> once you find something she is eating with gusto, you can start slowly
> mixing in a food that is better for her kidneys (we used prescription NF
> for our renal failure cat.)
>
> Good luck,
>
> Rhonda


Thanks for your suggestions, Rhonda. She is actually eating fairly well
tonight so she must be feeling better.

Bonnie

Rhonda
August 18th 06, 06:07 AM
Hi Bonnie,

A/D is prescription and it is Hills. There is some CRF food information
here: http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm

Good luck with your kitty!

Rhonda

22brix wrote:
>
>
> Is A/D a Hills product--do you have to get it through the vets? We tried her
> on one of the kidney diets two or three years ago and she adamantly refused
> to eat it--sigh.

22brix
August 18th 06, 06:23 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Bonnie,
>
> A/D is prescription and it is Hills. There is some CRF food information
> here: http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm
>
> Good luck with your kitty!
>
> Rhonda
>
Thanks for the link--it's got some great information! Bonnie

Phil P.
August 18th 06, 07:55 AM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>
> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today

That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your cat?

Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:

http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm

Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if she's
getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production which
in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to an
assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium supplementation
along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the downward
spiral of CRF.

I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
treating cats with renal disease.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
August 18th 06, 07:58 AM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for your response! We're pretty sure it's kidney disease. Her BUN
> and Creatinine have been normal but on the high side consistently for
> several years. My vet is doing blood work--we should know more tomorrow.

CRF doesn't show up in the bloodwork until at least 60-75% of kidney
function has been lost. Did your vet get a urine sample before he started
your cat on fluids?

P.

22brix
August 18th 06, 05:07 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "22brix" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
>> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today
>
> That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your
> cat?
>
> Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:
>
> http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm
>
> Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if
> she's
> getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production
> which
> in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to an
> assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium supplementation
> along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the
> downward
> spiral of CRF.
>
> I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
> treating cats with renal disease.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil
>

Phil,

Thanks for responding--I always respect your expertise and advice. I'm long
time lurker, occasional poster.

Molly is small--only about 6 lb 5 oz. I couldn't get an appointment with my
regular vet so am seeing one of her partners. The vet didn't mention a
percentage of dehydration but Molly's skin was really "tenting".

She is getting supplemental potassium--Tumil K 1/8th tsp twice daily. My
regular vet put her on that several years ago--her BUN and Creatinine were
high side normal but her potassium was low. The potassium has been normal
ever since but last year the BUN & Creatinine were slightly higher than
normal limits. I don't remember the exact numbers but they weren't very
high. From what the vet said, she wanted Molly on 200 ml fluids for 5 days
and then once a week, see how she does and maybe back it down further. I
will definitely talk to her about the volume--she should be calling with lab
results today. The vet did not collect a urine specimen.

She does seem to be feeling better--she's purring all the time and is happy
to be picked up and petted. Her appetite also is better. She's gotten
fluids once before for dehydration but I've never given them at home.

I'm interested in the omega-3 supplementation--how much, how often, in what
form?

Thanks again for your input--it's much appreciated.

Bonnie

22brix
August 18th 06, 07:46 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]>
> That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your
> cat?
>
> Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:
>
> http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm
>
> Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if
> she's
> getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production
> which
> in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to an
> assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium supplementation
> along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the
> downward
> spiral of CRF.
>
> I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
> treating cats with renal disease.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil

Phil,

I just got a call from my vet regarding lab results; it is her kidneys. Her
BUN is 78, Creatinine 3.7 and Phosphorus is 8.1. My vet wants me to give
her one more dose of 200 ml and then cut back to 100ml daily until Monday
and then go to every 2 or 3 days (100ml each time) as needed. I asked her
about the Omega-3 and she wants her to have that as well--Wellactin (sp?).
She is not anemic (yet). She doesn't feel that Molly needs a phosphorus
binder yet. She wants to repeat blood work in a couple of weeks.

Thanks again, Bonnie

August 18th 06, 11:05 PM
I've been having trouble getting Kira to eat. She lost 2 months in a
couple months and is currently anemic. The vet gave me an appetite
stimulant, but she had a bad reaction to it. Her appetite did pick up
again after being put on prednisolone (for the anemia prblem), but it
also helped that I found a food that she prefered. Friskies Liver and
Chicken dinner. It is the stinkiest nastiest stuff, but it seems really
attractive to her. I tried to go back to her previous favorite food
once her appetite picked up, but she just took a couple licks and
glared at me. Back to the stinky stuff.

She is eating much better, but not gaining yet. Her bloodwork is
improving, but her weight has stalled. At least it didn;t go down any
more. Hopefully, it will start picking up.

Anyway, I recommend trying the stinkiest stuff you can find and offer
it frequently.

22brix
August 18th 06, 11:20 PM
> wrote in message
ps.com...
> I've been having trouble getting Kira to eat. She lost 2 months in a
> couple months and is currently anemic. The vet gave me an appetite
> stimulant, but she had a bad reaction to it. Her appetite did pick up
> again after being put on prednisolone (for the anemia prblem), but it
> also helped that I found a food that she prefered. Friskies Liver and
> Chicken dinner. It is the stinkiest nastiest stuff, but it seems really
> attractive to her. I tried to go back to her previous favorite food
> once her appetite picked up, but she just took a couple licks and
> glared at me. Back to the stinky stuff.
>
> She is eating much better, but not gaining yet. Her bloodwork is
> improving, but her weight has stalled. At least it didn;t go down any
> more. Hopefully, it will start picking up.
>
> Anyway, I recommend trying the stinkiest stuff you can find and offer
> it frequently.

Thanks for the suggestion--I'll try that! She is eating better now that
she's more hydrated but at some point I want to get her on something a bit
more kidney friendly! Molly's not anemic yet.

Good luck with Kira--it's so frustrating when they don't eat.

Bonnie

Phil P.
August 20th 06, 05:00 AM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "22brix" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
> >> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today
> >
> > That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your
> > cat?
> >
> > Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:
> >
> >
http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm
> >
> > Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if
> > she's
> > getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production
> > which
> > in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to
an
> > assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium supplementation
> > along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the
> > downward
> > spiral of CRF.
> >
> > I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
> > treating cats with renal disease.
> >
> > Best of luck,
> >
> > Phil
> >
>
> Phil,
>
> Thanks for responding--I always respect your expertise and advice. I'm
long
> time lurker, occasional poster.
>
> Molly is small--only about 6 lb 5 oz. I couldn't get an appointment with
my
> regular vet so am seeing one of her partners. The vet didn't mention a
> percentage of dehydration but Molly's skin was really "tenting".
>
> She is getting supplemental potassium--Tumil K 1/8th tsp twice daily. My
> regular vet put her on that several years ago--her BUN and Creatinine were
> high side normal but her potassium was low. The potassium has been normal
> ever since but last year the BUN & Creatinine were slightly higher than
> normal limits. I don't remember the exact numbers but they weren't very
> high. From what the vet said, she wanted Molly on 200 ml fluids for 5
days
> and then once a week, see how she does and maybe back it down further. I
> will definitely talk to her about the volume--she should be calling with
lab
> results today. The vet did not collect a urine specimen.
>
> She does seem to be feeling better--she's purring all the time and is
happy
> to be picked up and petted. Her appetite also is better. She's gotten
> fluids once before for dehydration but I've never given them at home.
>
> I'm interested in the omega-3 supplementation--how much, how often, in
what
> form?

I use 3V Caps HP liquid. Its made by DVM Phamaceuticals:

http://www.dvmpharmaceuticals.com/display.html?c=6&fam=3VCaps%20Liquid%20HP

Don't use omega-3's derived from flax seed or from any plant material (eg.,
Derm Caps)- they contain too omega-6 which are pro-inflammatory. Use only
omega-3s derived from menhaden fish oil or salmon.

Call Dr. Boos at DVM- she'll work out the dose for your cat. I don't have
her number on me- but you can reach her through DVm's contact number on
their website.

Best of luck,

Phil

Phil P.
August 20th 06, 05:21 AM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "22brix" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc
> >> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today
> >
> > That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your
> > cat?
> >
> > Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:
> >
> >
http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm
> >
> > Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if
> > she's
> > getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production
> > which
> > in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to
an
> > assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium supplementation
> > along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the
> > downward
> > spiral of CRF.
> >
> > I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
> > treating cats with renal disease.
> >
> > Best of luck,
> >
> > Phil
> >
>
> Phil,
>
> Thanks for responding--I always respect your expertise and advice. I'm
long
> time lurker, occasional poster.
>
> Molly is small--only about 6 lb 5 oz. I couldn't get an appointment with
my
> regular vet so am seeing one of her partners. The vet didn't mention a
> percentage of dehydration but Molly's skin was really "tenting".
>
> She is getting supplemental potassium--Tumil K 1/8th tsp twice daily.

That's a little low with respect to the amount of fluids she's receiving.
1/8 tsp = about 1 mEq. I think she should be getting at least 2-4 mEq/day.


My
> regular vet put her on that several years ago--her BUN and Creatinine were
> high side normal but her potassium was low. The potassium has been normal
> ever since but last year the BUN & Creatinine were slightly higher than
> normal limits. I don't remember the exact numbers but they weren't very
> high. From what the vet said, she wanted Molly on 200 ml fluids for 5
days
> and then once a week, see how she does and maybe back it down further. I
> will definitely talk to her about the volume--she should be calling with
lab
> results today. The vet did not collect a urine specimen.


OK- that sounds better. Fluids therapy to promote diuresis should only be
used on a short term basis to lower uremic toxin levels in the blood- Long
term or continued large volume fluids promotes glomerular hyperfiltration,
which promotes progression.

Best of luck,

Phil


>
> She does seem to be feeling better--she's purring all the time and is
happy
> to be picked up and petted. Her appetite also is better. She's gotten
> fluids once before for dehydration but I've never given them at home.
>
> I'm interested in the omega-3 supplementation--how much, how often, in
what
> form?
>
> Thanks again for your input--it's much appreciated.
>
> Bonnie
>
>

22brix
August 20th 06, 07:48 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:%[email protected]
>
> "22brix" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> >
>> > "22brix" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200
>> >> cc
>> >> fluid at the vet's yesterday and 200cc today
>> >
>> > That's a lot of fluid to give at once and in one day! How big is your
>> > cat?
>> >
>> > Here's a chart you can use for calculating the volume of fluid to give:
>> >
>> >
> http://www.maxshouse.com/Calculation_of_24-Hour_Fluid_Requirement_at_Different_Levels_of_Dehy dration.htm
>> >
>> > Also, your cat should be getting a potassium supplement- especially if
>> > she's
>> > getting fluid therapy. Fluid therapy promotes rapid urine production
>> > which
>> > in turn promotes potassium excretion. Potassium depletion can lead to
> an
>> > assortment of problems one of which is death. Potassium
>> > supplementation
>> > along with omega-3 supplementation can delay or even interrupt the
>> > downward
>> > spiral of CRF.
>> >
>> > I think you may want to look for a vet whose a bit more experienced in
>> > treating cats with renal disease.
>> >
>> > Best of luck,
>> >
>> > Phil
>> >
>>
>> Phil,
>>
>> Thanks for responding--I always respect your expertise and advice. I'm
> long
>> time lurker, occasional poster.
>>
>> Molly is small--only about 6 lb 5 oz. I couldn't get an appointment with
> my
>> regular vet so am seeing one of her partners. The vet didn't mention a
>> percentage of dehydration but Molly's skin was really "tenting".
>>
>> She is getting supplemental potassium--Tumil K 1/8th tsp twice daily.
>
> That's a little low with respect to the amount of fluids she's receiving.
> 1/8 tsp = about 1 mEq. I think she should be getting at least 2-4 mEq/day.

I meant to ask my vet about that--the 1/8th tsp was her dose prior to
getting fluid replacement. I'm taking her back in a couple of weeks for
repeat bloodwork and I'll ask her about it then.
>
>

From what the vet said, she wanted Molly on 200 ml fluids for 5
> days
>> and then once a week, see how she does and maybe back it down further. I
>> will definitely talk to her about the volume--she should be calling with
> lab
>> results today. The vet did not collect a urine specimen.
>
>
> OK- that sounds better. Fluids therapy to promote diuresis should only be
> used on a short term basis to lower uremic toxin levels in the blood-
> Long
> term or continued large volume fluids promotes glomerular hyperfiltration,
> which promotes progression.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Phil

I'm giving her 100ml for the next couple of days and then 100 ml every two
or three days. She's very good about sitting quietly throughout the
administration of the fluids--she doesn't seem to feel it at all and I'm
using 18 gauge needles. It's truly amazing how much better she feels with
the fluids. She's eating better, purring more and just basically is more
like her sweet self. Now the next thing is to find a food that friendly to
her kidneys and that is palatable.

Thanks much for your input!

Bonnie

Adam Helberg
September 4th 06, 08:08 PM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>I just gave Molly 200 cc Ringers Lactate subq--this was my first time and I was
>quite nervous. She handled it like a trooper--ate treats and sat there very quietly
>until I was done, licked my fingers a couple of times and then jumped off my lap
>like nothing had happened. The only glitch was that I backed out the needle once
>and a little fluid spilled. I hope, hope, hope it continues this easily. She's
>been dehydrated and lethargic and she probably has some kidney issues. She's 16 plus
>years and has had some health problems but nothing too terrible. I know with crf
>that will change but for right now I'm happy she seems to tolerate the subq
>injection.
>
> The main problem right now is trying to get her to eat. She got 200 cc fluid at
> the vet's yesterday and 200cc today--her appetite seems better today but she's been
> eating only one thing and that's tuna (catfood--not human). Any suggestions on how
> to expand her repertoire of acceptable food choices? The vet said that right now
> calories were more important but I would like to get her eating something better
> for her kidneys.
>
> I appreciate hearing other people's experiences with both the fluid administration
> and the dietary issues.
>
> Thank you, Bonnie

I did subQ fluid injections to a hyperthyroid cat I rescued, for a week. I hung the
LR bag on a hook on a door, tented a lump of tissue behind the neck and allowed 150
cc to flow to a 3.5 lb cat. She did well but I did not like doing it. I used a new
needle each time but the same bag and tubing.

Adam