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mdsu
October 4th 06, 03:51 PM
As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
$500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
something more involved.

My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.

It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.

I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
about Charlie's medical condition.

Rich

Lynne
October 4th 06, 04:28 PM
mdsu wrote:
> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
> something more involved.
>
> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>
> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>
> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
> about Charlie's medical condition.
>
> Rich

I'm sorry to hear that the vet missed your kitty's murmur. Murmur's
are funny things, though, and can come and go under various
circumstances. For example, fever can cause insignificant murmurs.
Was your kitty's temperature elevated at the time the murmur was
detected? If so, resolve whatever illness is causing the fever and
have your vet listen again when he is afebrile. The murmur may not be
there anymore.

Even if this is not fever induced, as you know, some murmurs are
inconsequential. In simple terms, a murmur is the sound of blood flow
collisions. Charlie could have a small hole somewhere in his heart,
causing venous and arterial flow to collide, which is heard as a
murmur. Many holes in the heart do not cause problems, but some do.
If Charlie is young, the hole could self-resolve. On the other hand,
it could get worse as he ages. He could also live a long, full life
with no change to his problem and no impact on his quality of life. In
my opinion, if Charlie is not displaying any cardiac symptoms other
than the murmur, I wouldn't worry or have the echocardiogram done.
Symptoms to look for are failure to thrive (grow, develop) if he is
young, poor appetite, low energy, and/or difficulty breathing. Sudden
weight gain could indicate congestive heart failure, which can often be
treated successfully with diuretics. Check his lips if they are light
in color and see if they have a blue tinge. This would indicate his
Oxygen saturation is low. Minor cyanosis is not always a problem and
he may do fine even with lower than average sats. If he is not having
any symptoms now, he may never. But it's a crap shoot.

Focus on Charlie's behavior and overall condition and not so much on
the murmur before you get too worked up. I know that is easier said
than done... Good luck to you and Charlie!

mdsu
October 4th 06, 06:22 PM
Lynne wrote:
> mdsu wrote:
>> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
>> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
>> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
>> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
>> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
>> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
>> something more involved.
>>
>> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
>> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
>> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
>> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
>> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>>
>> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
>> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
>> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
>> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
>> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
>> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>>
>> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
>> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
>> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
>> about Charlie's medical condition.
>>
>> Rich
>
> I'm sorry to hear that the vet missed your kitty's murmur. Murmur's
> are funny things, though, and can come and go under various
> circumstances. For example, fever can cause insignificant murmurs.
> Was your kitty's temperature elevated at the time the murmur was
> detected? If so, resolve whatever illness is causing the fever and
> have your vet listen again when he is afebrile. The murmur may not be
> there anymore.
>
> Even if this is not fever induced, as you know, some murmurs are
> inconsequential. In simple terms, a murmur is the sound of blood flow
> collisions. Charlie could have a small hole somewhere in his heart,
> causing venous and arterial flow to collide, which is heard as a
> murmur. Many holes in the heart do not cause problems, but some do.
> If Charlie is young, the hole could self-resolve. On the other hand,
> it could get worse as he ages. He could also live a long, full life
> with no change to his problem and no impact on his quality of life. In
> my opinion, if Charlie is not displaying any cardiac symptoms other
> than the murmur, I wouldn't worry or have the echocardiogram done.
> Symptoms to look for are failure to thrive (grow, develop) if he is
> young, poor appetite, low energy, and/or difficulty breathing. Sudden
> weight gain could indicate congestive heart failure, which can often be
> treated successfully with diuretics. Check his lips if they are light
> in color and see if they have a blue tinge. This would indicate his
> Oxygen saturation is low. Minor cyanosis is not always a problem and
> he may do fine even with lower than average sats. If he is not having
> any symptoms now, he may never. But it's a crap shoot.
>
> Focus on Charlie's behavior and overall condition and not so much on
> the murmur before you get too worked up. I know that is easier said
> than done... Good luck to you and Charlie!
>

Lynne,

Thanks very much for the information. I canceled the appointment with
the cardiologist. I spoke again with my vet and she did say that it
wasn't imperative that Charlie see the cardiologist. His energy level is
off the charts and his appetite is excellent. Charlie was panting and
open mouth breathing after play last week, but that's probably because
he came home with an upper respiratory infection. (Charlie was sneezing
a lot too.) But all symptoms have cleared.

For the time being I'm going to assume that Charlie's murmur is not a
big deal. I'll keep an eye on him, and take him to see the cardiologist
if and when I notice any problems.

And fyi, I heard from the humane society and gave it to them a little
bit. The woman said to just bring him back. But Charlie is not a piece
of trash. I'm not going to return him to the shelter and what would be
almost certain death. I'm just more than a little annoyed that their vet
can't take 15 seconds to listen to the chest of an animal. I know they
have to deal with a lot of animals, but what I propose doesn't take that
much additional time. The woman with whom I spoke added that many
shelters don't have vets. That's beside the point because this shelter
does have one.

Again, thanks very much for the help.

Best,
Rich

Lynne
October 4th 06, 07:33 PM
mdsu wrote:
>
> Lynne,
>
> Thanks very much for the information. I canceled the appointment with
> the cardiologist. I spoke again with my vet and she did say that it
> wasn't imperative that Charlie see the cardiologist. His energy level is
> off the charts and his appetite is excellent. Charlie was panting and
> open mouth breathing after play last week, but that's probably because
> he came home with an upper respiratory infection. (Charlie was sneezing
> a lot too.) But all symptoms have cleared.
>
> For the time being I'm going to assume that Charlie's murmur is not a
> big deal. I'll keep an eye on him, and take him to see the cardiologist
> if and when I notice any problems.
>
> And fyi, I heard from the humane society and gave it to them a little
> bit. The woman said to just bring him back. But Charlie is not a piece
> of trash. I'm not going to return him to the shelter and what would be
> almost certain death. I'm just more than a little annoyed that their vet
> can't take 15 seconds to listen to the chest of an animal. I know they
> have to deal with a lot of animals, but what I propose doesn't take that
> much additional time. The woman with whom I spoke added that many
> shelters don't have vets. That's beside the point because this shelter
> does have one.
>
> Again, thanks very much for the help.
>
> Best,
> Rich

You are very welcome. So long as your vet agrees, I am happy to help.
Pay close attention to Charlie for any of the symptoms I mentioned. If
they appear, get him to the cardiologist. It wouldn't hurt to take him
to see your regular vet in a month or two for a checkup. If the murmur
is quieter or gone, that may ease your mind. Hopefully it was
transient or he will outgrow it.

Take good care. Charlie is lucky to have you!

October 4th 06, 08:35 PM
mdsu > wrote:

>And fyi, I heard from the humane society and gave it to them a little
>bit. The woman said to just bring him back. But Charlie is not a piece
>of trash. I'm not going to return him to the shelter and what would be
>almost certain death. I'm just more than a little annoyed that their vet
>can't take 15 seconds to listen to the chest of an animal.

It's probably better that their vet didn't detect the murmur since
Charlie is now in a good place instead of in their trash heap.

Good luck with Charlie.

-mhd

-L.
October 4th 06, 10:43 PM
mdsu wrote:
> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
> something more involved.
>
> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>
> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.

Not necessartily. If the exam was done while the cat was scared, the
rapid beating of the heart may have masked the murmur. Murmurs can
sometimes be hard to diagnose.


> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>
> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
> about Charlie's medical condition.

Unlikely - the vet probably just missed it upon exam. Most Humane
Societies have a liberal return policy. If you are that upset about
this, take the cat back to the HS.

-L.

Lesley
October 4th 06, 11:17 PM
wrote:
>
> It's probably better that their vet didn't detect the murmur since
> Charlie is now in a good place instead of in their trash heap.
>
I agree completely!

I don't know if this helps but a friend of mine a few years back took
in a kitten who turned out to have a major bowel problem (The one where
part of the bowel telescopes into another part- believe me it is easier
to describe it than spell the proper term!). He survived major surgery
and then was found at 3 months to have a heart murmur

He was PTS for heart disease,,,Aged almost 19! Having never had heart
trouble until the last month or so of his life

Enjoy Charlie- just keep an eye on him. The vet told them them that the
murmur (which was occasionally heard throughout his life) was not a
cause of his demise and he was an active playful cat lively cat until
the last month or so

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

October 4th 06, 11:36 PM
mdsu wrote:
> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
> about Charlie's medical condition.
>
> Rich

What type of murmur exactly is this?

In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
teeth.

With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
with people.

If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
bacterial endocarditis.

I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
generalities.

I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
"benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.

Lynne
October 5th 06, 12:35 AM
wrote:
>
> What type of murmur exactly is this?
>
> In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
> teeth.
>
> With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
> It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
> with people.
>
> If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
> the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
> onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
> bacterial endocarditis.
>
> I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
> want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
> stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
> are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
> benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
> gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
> is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
> quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
> murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
> generalities.
>
> I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
> Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
> Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
> blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
> "benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
> cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.

8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
life threatening cardiac anomaly.

Good dental hygiene is important regardless.

mdsu
October 5th 06, 12:42 AM
-L. wrote:
> mdsu wrote:
>> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
>> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
>> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
>> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
>> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
>> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
>> something more involved.
>>
>> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
>> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
>> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
>> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
>> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>>
>> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
>> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
>> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
>
> Not necessartily. If the exam was done while the cat was scared, the
> rapid beating of the heart may have masked the murmur. Murmurs can
> sometimes be hard to diagnose.
>
>
>> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
>> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
>> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>>
>> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
>> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
>> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
>> about Charlie's medical condition.
>
> Unlikely - the vet probably just missed it upon exam. Most Humane
> Societies have a liberal return policy. If you are that upset about
> this, take the cat back to the HS.
>
> -L.
>
Please, I've heard enough of that from the Humane Society. There's a
difference between being frustrated and being mean. Charlie is not a
vacuum cleaner that I will return because something is wrong. I've
already become quite attached to him and vice versa. If it turns out
that he needs to be seen by a cardiologist, then I will see to it.

Rich

mdsu
October 5th 06, 12:47 AM
Lynne wrote:
> wrote:
>> What type of murmur exactly is this?
>>
>> In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
>> teeth.
>>
>> With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
>> It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
>> with people.
>>
>> If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
>> the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
>> onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
>> bacterial endocarditis.
>>
>> I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
>> want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
>> stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
>> are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
>> benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
>> gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
>> is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
>> quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
>> murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
>> generalities.
>>
>> I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
>> Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
>> Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
>> blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
>> "benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
>> cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.
>
> 8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
> congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
> defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
> other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
> the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
> similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
> murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
> symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
> to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
> symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
> he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
> and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
> is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
> life threatening cardiac anomaly.
>
> Good dental hygiene is important regardless.
>

Right. Thanks Lynne. For the record, I have a heart murmur. It was
diagnosed when I was 13. I'm 45 now. I'm in better shape than most
people half my age. I certainly don't sit around worrying about it. I
take an antibiotic before dental work and that's it.

I'll clean Charlie's teeth 2-3 times/week. For the time being, I am not
going to take Charlie to the cardiologist. $500 is a lot of money to
spend for a "maybe." I'll watch him and get him the care if and when he
needs it.

Rich

MaryL
October 5th 06, 01:03 AM
"mdsu" > wrote in message
...
> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
> that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
> more involved.
>
> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
> Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
> bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>
> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
> had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
> heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
> be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
> issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
> murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>
> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
> society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
> the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
> Charlie's medical condition.
>
> Rich

Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
his policy.

MaryL

mdsu
October 5th 06, 01:19 AM
MaryL wrote:
> "mdsu" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
>> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
>> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
>> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
>> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
>> that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
>> more involved.
>>
>> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
>> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
>> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
>> Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
>> bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>>
>> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
>> had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
>> heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
>> be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
>> issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
>> murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>>
>> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
>> society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
>> the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
>> Charlie's medical condition.
>>
>> Rich
>
> Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
> chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
> It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
> aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
> mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
> his policy.
>
> MaryL
>
>
Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane
Society to ask about this possibility?

Thanks,
Rich

Lynne
October 5th 06, 01:25 AM
mdsu wrote:
> MaryL wrote:
> > "mdsu" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> >> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> >> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
> >> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
> >> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
> >> that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
> >> more involved.
> >>
> >> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
> >> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
> >> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
> >> Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
> >> bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
> >> had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
> >> heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
> >> be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
> >> issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
> >> murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
> >>
> >> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
> >> society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
> >> the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
> >> Charlie's medical condition.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> > Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
> > chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
> > It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
> > aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
> > mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
> > his policy.
> >
> > MaryL
> >
> >
> Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane
> Society to ask about this possibility?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich

You should have been given a packet of paperwork with Charlie, with the
adoption paperwork, microchip information (if applicable), and
paperwork to fill out for the insurance. Our local Humane Society only
offers the insurance for 2 months, but if you have any amt of insurance
on Charlie, and since the Humane Society vet missed the murmur
(therefore making this condition NOT pre-existing), I'd let the
insurance cover the echo. Charlie will have to be sedated for the
echo, though (hopefully not anesthetized).

If you don't have this paperwork, definitely get it!

MaryL
October 5th 06, 02:07 AM
"mdsu" > wrote in message
...
> MaryL wrote:
>> "mdsu" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
>>> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
>>> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
>>> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
>>> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
>>> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
>>> something more involved.
>>>
>>> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
>>> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
>>> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
>>> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
>>> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
>>> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
>>> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
>>> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
>>> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
>>> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>>>
>>> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
>>> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
>>> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
>>> about Charlie's medical condition.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>
>> Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a
>> good chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of
>> charge. It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke
>> to isn't aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had
>> 2 weeks to mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I
>> never had to use his policy.
>>
>> MaryL
> Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane Society
> to ask about this possibility?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich

Yes, check with the Humane Society. Also, it would be worthwhile to go to
Petfinders and see if insurance is listed for cats from your shelter.

MaryL

October 5th 06, 02:57 AM
Lynne wrote:
> 8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
> congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those

that's for congenital heart defects which is not necessarily the same
thing
the rate for murmurs is higher than 0.8%. with careful diagnosis maybe
2%, without careful diagnoses, much, much higher.

> defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
> other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
> the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
> similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
> murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
> symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
> to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
> symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
> he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
> and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
> is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
> life threatening cardiac anomaly.

That's not always true. If it were, then the decision when to go in and
do open heart surgery would be much, much simpler than it currently is.
The problem is you want to do the surgery before the condition is not
reversible. Thus, you want to go in when a person is healthy and not
displaying any real life threatening conditions. It would be nice if it
were always what you post above, but it's not.

Do you know anyone who has had valvular surgery? Are you speaking from
experience? Heart murmurs are quite a different thing from the more
common bypass surgeries and what not. It's more difficult to diagnose
when to do it. The other heart problems are relatively easy, with pain
and shortness of breath and inability to get around as before and many
symptoms that you may not see in valve problems.

In the case of murmurs and heart valve surgery, it's just not as simple
and common sensical as you post above. It would be nice if it were, but
it's not :(

> Good dental hygiene is important regardless.

True dat.

October 5th 06, 03:11 AM
" > wrote:

>I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.

How many other animals and programs would suffer if the HS had to use
money not budgeted for exotic surgery?

Sorry but that is not realistic.

-mhd

October 5th 06, 03:27 AM
On 4 Oct 2006 16:35:04 -0700, "Lynne" >
wrote:

>
wrote:
>>
>> What type of murmur exactly is this?
>>
>> In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
>> teeth.
>>
>> With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
>> It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
>> with people.
>>
>> If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
>> the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
>> onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
>> bacterial endocarditis.
>>
>> I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
>> want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
>> stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
>> are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
>> benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
>> gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
>> is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
>> quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
>> murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
>> generalities.
>>
>> I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
>> Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
>> Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
>> blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
>> "benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
>> cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.
>
>8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
>congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
>defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
>other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
>the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
>similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
>murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
>symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
>to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
>symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
>he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
>and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
>is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
>life threatening cardiac anomaly.
>
While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
cause? If the murmur is mild, it's probably nothing to worry about,
and can easily be missed if the exam was done in a noisy environment.
Also, young children sometimes get murmurs simply because of how the
blood flows, and will outgrow them as the body grows and the vessels
get a little bigger.

Personally, I would start saving up for the cardiologist, simply
because I would want to know if it was something major early on. It
may be nothing, in which case you spend the money once and can rest
easy. But it may be something that you need to keep an eye on, and
knowing that early is better than catching when the cat's health
starts to deteriorate.

And, just as a reference point, I took my cat to the same vet for 5
years. I had to move to a new city for a new job, and took the cats
in for a last check-up to make sure that everything was ok right
before I left, and the vet noticed a murmur in one of the cats. She
hadn't seen any signs of it before, there doesn't seem to be any
reason for it physiologically, and it doesn't seem to bother the cat
any. (As I put it, every medical indication is that this cat has no
murmur, except that you can hear it.) So I am watching and waiting
with her. But it just goes to show that these things can suddenly
show up.

Rebecca

Lynne
October 5th 06, 03:51 AM
wrote:
> Lynne wrote:
> > 8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
> > congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
>
> that's for congenital heart defects which is not necessarily the same
> thing
> the rate for murmurs is higher than 0.8%. with careful diagnosis maybe
> 2%, without careful diagnoses, much, much higher.
>
> > defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
> > other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
> > the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
> > similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
> > murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
> > symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
> > to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
> > symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
> > he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
> > and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
> > is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
> > life threatening cardiac anomaly.
>
> That's not always true. If it were, then the decision when to go in and
> do open heart surgery would be much, much simpler than it currently is.
> The problem is you want to do the surgery before the condition is not
> reversible. Thus, you want to go in when a person is healthy and not
> displaying any real life threatening conditions. It would be nice if it
> were always what you post above, but it's not.
>
> Do you know anyone who has had valvular surgery? Are you speaking from
> experience? Heart murmurs are quite a different thing from the more
> common bypass surgeries and what not. It's more difficult to diagnose
> when to do it. The other heart problems are relatively easy, with pain
> and shortness of breath and inability to get around as before and many
> symptoms that you may not see in valve problems.
>
> In the case of murmurs and heart valve surgery, it's just not as simple
> and common sensical as you post above. It would be nice if it were, but
> it's not :(
>
> > Good dental hygiene is important regardless.
>
> True dat.

Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic
surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
symptoms other than a murmur.

Lynne
October 5th 06, 03:54 AM
wrote:

> While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
> murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
> it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
> cause?

I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
what cardiologists do.

Lynne
October 5th 06, 03:54 AM
wrote:

> While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
> murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
> it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
> cause?

I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
what cardiologists do.

October 5th 06, 04:03 AM
On 4 Oct 2006 19:54:40 -0700, "Lynne" >
wrote:

wrote:
>
>> While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
>> murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
>> it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
>> cause?
>
>I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
>a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
>what cardiologists do.

Hmm. My vets don't seem to have any trouble grading it, at least.
But they did bring in a specialist for the echo.

Rebecca

Lynne
October 5th 06, 04:16 AM
I became curious about how congenital defects are handled in cats. I
found this story and it was so cute I stopped looking:

http://www.nsalamerica.org/sponsor/sponsor_cat/sac_applejack.html

Note this kitty has complex congenital heart disease, and both problems
are fairly serious on their own. He is doing pretty well so far! His
failure to gain weight, however, is a common problem for human kids
with certain types of heart disease, too. CCHD is often accompanied by
other congenital defects as well and his stomach problems could be
related. It's very cool that he is doing so well. Personally, I find
it amazing that so many hearts are formed perfectly when so many things
have to happen just right when the heart develops.

BTW, these same problems in a human child would be surgically repaired
(perhaps not the septal defect, depending on its size), but the timing
would depend on how the child was fairing, since many surgical repairs
need to be repeated as the child grows.

Anyway, RICH, don't worry about Charlie. If you can get that echo on
the insurance company's nickle, it would be a good idea for your own
peace of mind.

October 5th 06, 06:12 AM
Lynne wrote:
> Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
> related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
> assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
> congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
> not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
> valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic

I was referring to the murmurs caused by valve problems, like a mitral
valve, that when they get bad, that is a "4+" or severe - the textbook
prognosis is death within 7 years. Now if anyone can beat this, power
to them but that's the average survival rate with medication and
without surgery. It's not clear to me if anyone can beat this with
careful medication but the problem is with "severe" mitral
regurgitation, for example, the heart will begin to decompensate by
enlarging. If the heart, left ventricle, enlarges too much, then the
surgery will not be effective. So there is a very confusing area where
someone has to get surgery although the symptoms are not severe, aside
from the regurgitation. At that point, one looks for atrial
fibrillation or other indicators but it's a difficult call. If one is
turning blue and syncoping, then the call is simple.

> surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
> possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
> congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
> symptoms other than a murmur.

If the mitral valve regurgitation is severe, then it is possible that
many cardiologists will recommend surgery without any other symptoms.
You can say that the regurgitation itself is severe is a symptom. And
that's what I was thinking when I originally wrote my post. But this is
a difficult call. Really good cardiologists, of which there are very
few, will agree with you and want to see a symptom other than severe
regurgitation. Atrial fibrillation will be considered. But atrial
fibrillation by itself is not considered serious although if it's
paroxysmal, it can lead to strokes. But atrial fibrillation can be
controlled by itself at times, with drugs or radio ablation.

The problem is it is possible to have a serious mitral valve murmur
with severe regurgitation and not much else in the way of symptoms.

And it's also possible that, on top of this, the echocardiograph will
not be conclusive because of the turbulence of the regurgitation. It's
a nightmare for proper diagnosis in some situations.

October 5th 06, 06:14 AM
Lynne wrote:
> Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
> related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
> assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
> congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
> not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
> valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic

I was referring to the murmurs caused by valve problems, like a mitral
valve, that when they get bad, that is a "4+" or severe - the textbook
prognosis is death within 7 years. Now if anyone can beat this, power
to them but that's the average survival rate with medication and
without surgery. It's not clear to me if anyone can beat this with
careful medication but the problem is with "severe" mitral
regurgitation, for example, the heart will begin to decompensate by
enlarging. If the heart, left ventricle, enlarges too much, then the
surgery will not be effective. So there is a very confusing area where
someone has to get surgery although the symptoms are not severe, aside
from the regurgitation. At that point, one looks for atrial
fibrillation or other indicators but it's a difficult call. If one is
turning blue and syncoping, then the call is simple.

> surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
> possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
> congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
> symptoms other than a murmur.

If the mitral valve regurgitation is severe, then it is possible that
many cardiologists will recommend surgery without any other symptoms.
You can say that the regurgitation itself is severe is a symptom. And
that's what I was thinking when I originally wrote my post. But this is
a difficult call. Really good cardiologists, of which there are very
few, will agree with you and want to see a symptom other than severe
regurgitation. Atrial fibrillation will be considered. But atrial
fibrillation by itself is not considered serious although if it's
paroxysmal, it can lead to strokes. But atrial fibrillation can be
controlled by itself at times, with drugs or radio ablation.

The problem is it is possible to have a serious mitral valve murmur
with severe regurgitation and not much else in the way of symptoms.

And it's also possible that, on top of this, the echocardiograph will
not be conclusive because of the turbulence of the regurgitation. It's
a nightmare for proper diagnosis in some situations.

-L.
October 5th 06, 06:21 AM
mdsu wrote:
> Please, I've heard enough of that from the Humane Society. There's a
> difference between being frustrated and being mean. Charlie is not a
> vacuum cleaner that I will return because something is wrong.

Well, then why are you continuing to bitch and moan about it? Mistakes
happen. Through this mistake, you ended up with a great cat that
otherwise would probably have been euthanized. Celebrate that, instead
of complaining about how "cheated" you feel.

-L.

mdsu
October 5th 06, 09:33 PM
-L. wrote:
> mdsu wrote:
>> Please, I've heard enough of that from the Humane Society. There's a
>> difference between being frustrated and being mean. Charlie is not a
>> vacuum cleaner that I will return because something is wrong.
>
> Well, then why are you continuing to bitch and moan about it? Mistakes
> happen. Through this mistake, you ended up with a great cat that
> otherwise would probably have been euthanized. Celebrate that, instead
> of complaining about how "cheated" you feel.
>
> -L.
>
Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
it. And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
certainly not welcome.

Rich

-L.
October 6th 06, 01:14 AM
mdsu wrote:
> >
> Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
> it.

You came in here asking for advice and blaming the vet - I told you the
truth - that murmurs are oftentimes missed by very good vets.

>And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
> certainly not welcome.
>
> Rich

Well Jackass, when you post to a newsgroup how upset you are with the
HS and wouldn't have taken the cat if you had known it has a medical
issue, what the **** do you expect? If you are THAT upset about the
cat, take it back. It's not neuroscience. And by the way, if you
don't want opinions, don't post to a world-wide unmoderated group.
Sheesh. If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
needs.

-L.

cybercat
October 6th 06, 01:20 AM
"-L." > wrote >

> If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
> join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
> needs.
>

Would that be the groups reserved exclusively for the Native
American tribes who practice the ancient ritual of blowing
sugar out of their asses?




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

-L.
October 6th 06, 01:36 AM
cybercat wrote:
> "-L." > wrote >
>
> > If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
> > join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
> > needs.
> >
>
> Would that be the groups reserved exclusively for the Native
> American tribes who practice the ancient ritual of blowing
> sugar out of their asses?

LOL...Yahoo. I can't type worth ****, and I can't see worth **** to
catch my typos!

-L.

Gary Brown
October 6th 06, 04:45 AM
> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet

Our cat has a heart murmur. The cardiologist opined it was nothing
serious. Many aren't.

Don't be angry at the probably overworked humane society vet. In a
few months you be happy to have Charlie even if he is imperfect.

Gary

-L.
October 7th 06, 02:38 AM
Lookie at this charmer I got from mdsu/Rich today. LOL...I think
somebody needs a Prozac!

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Subject: Re: Cat heart murmur and incompetent humane society vet
References: >
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-L. wrote:
> mdsu wrote:
>> Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
>> it.
>
> You came in here asking for advice and blaming the vet - I told you the
> truth - that murmurs are oftentimes missed by very good vets.
>
>> And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
>> certainly not welcome.
>>
>> Rich
>
> Well Jackass, when you post to a newsgroup how upset you are with the
> HS and wouldn't have taken the cat if you had known it has a medical
> issue, what the **** do you expect? If you are THAT upset about the
> cat, take it back. It's not neuroscience. And by the way, if you
> don't want opinions, don't post to a world-wide unmoderated group.
> Sheesh. If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
> join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
> needs.
>
> -L.
>
You know, normally I'm a nice guy. But go **** yourself. And when
you're
done, pull the pole out of your **** or ass as the case may be.

Rich

*****

Rich, honey, don't be sending hatemail to my email account. Because
when you do, I'll just post it here for the whole world to see what an
idiot and asshole you are. As if there were any doubt...

-L.

Charlie Wilkes
October 7th 06, 07:44 AM
Looks like this is headed for a hot weekend at Doubletree Inn. I'll
chip in on the room if you'll post videos.

Charlie


On 6 Oct 2006 18:38:14 -0700, "-L." > wrote:

>Lookie at this charmer I got from mdsu/Rich today. LOL...I think
>somebody needs a Prozac!
>
>X-Gmail-Received: 75d3e2d8060b15259e28d6673b9e12e183d548e2
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>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 06:00:40 -0400
>From: mdsu >
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>To: "-L." >
>Subject: Re: Cat heart murmur and incompetent humane society vet
>References: >
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>-L. wrote:
>> mdsu wrote:
>>> Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
>>> it.
>>
>> You came in here asking for advice and blaming the vet - I told you the
>> truth - that murmurs are oftentimes missed by very good vets.
>>
>>> And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
>>> certainly not welcome.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>
>> Well Jackass, when you post to a newsgroup how upset you are with the
>> HS and wouldn't have taken the cat if you had known it has a medical
>> issue, what the **** do you expect? If you are THAT upset about the
>> cat, take it back. It's not neuroscience. And by the way, if you
>> don't want opinions, don't post to a world-wide unmoderated group.
>> Sheesh. If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
>> join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
>> needs.
>>
>> -L.
>>
>You know, normally I'm a nice guy. But go **** yourself. And when
>you're
>done, pull the pole out of your **** or ass as the case may be.
>
>Rich
>
>*****
>
>Rich, honey, don't be sending hatemail to my email account. Because
>when you do, I'll just post it here for the whole world to see what an
>idiot and asshole you are. As if there were any doubt...
>
>-L.

-L.
October 7th 06, 08:40 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Looks like this is headed for a hot weekend at Doubletree Inn. I'll
> chip in on the room if you'll post videos.
>
> Charlie

LOL...No I spanked his ass and I believe he's over it. Or at least
he'd better be, if he knows what's good for him.

-L.

Anonymous
October 7th 06, 09:29 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Looks like this is headed for a hot weekend at Doubletree Inn. I'll
> chip in on the room if you'll post videos.
>
> Charlie
>
LOL...No I spanked his ass and I believe he's over it. Or at least
he'd better be, if he knows what's good for him.

-L.
Sent via http://Pets-99.com , http://AnimalForum.ws & http://AnimalBlog.org

Anonymous
October 7th 06, 09:29 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Looks like this is headed for a hot weekend at Doubletree Inn. I'll
> chip in on the room if you'll post videos.
>
> Charlie
>
LOL...No I spanked his ass and I believe he's over it. Or at least
he'd better be, if he knows what's good for him.

-L.
Sent via http://Pets-99.com , http://AnimalForum.ws & http://AnimalBlog.org

Anonymous
October 7th 06, 09:30 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> Looks like this is headed for a hot weekend at Doubletree Inn. I'll
> chip in on the room if you'll post videos.
>
> Charlie
>
LOL...No I spanked his ass and I believe he's over it. Or at least
he'd better be, if he knows what's good for him.

-L.
Sent via http://Pets-99.com , http://AnimalForum.ws & http://AnimalBlog.org

Wendy
October 8th 06, 01:14 AM
an intususseption?


"Lesley" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's probably better that their vet didn't detect the murmur since
>> Charlie is now in a good place instead of in their trash heap.
>>
> I agree completely!
>
> I don't know if this helps but a friend of mine a few years back took
> in a kitten who turned out to have a major bowel problem (The one where
> part of the bowel telescopes into another part- believe me it is easier
> to describe it than spell the proper term!). He survived major surgery
> and then was found at 3 months to have a heart murmur
>
> He was PTS for heart disease,,,Aged almost 19! Having never had heart
> trouble until the last month or so of his life
>
> Enjoy Charlie- just keep an eye on him. The vet told them them that the
> murmur (which was occasionally heard throughout his life) was not a
> cause of his demise and he was an active playful cat lively cat until
> the last month or so
>
> Lesley
>
> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
>

Lesley
October 8th 06, 01:20 AM
Wendy wrote:
> an intususseption?
> Something like that

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

meeee
October 9th 06, 05:04 AM
Oh, my. I take the weekend off, and here you people are tormenting some poor
idiot who was stooopid enough to try it on here, and I'm not getting any of
it.

"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Lookie at this charmer I got from mdsu/Rich today. LOL...I think
> somebody needs a Prozac!
>
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> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 06:00:40 -0400
> From: mdsu >
> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Macintosh/20060909)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "-L." >
> Subject: Re: Cat heart murmur and incompetent humane society vet
> References: >
> . com>
> >
> om>
> >
> . com>
> In-Reply-To: . com>
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> ip=207.172.4.11,
> so=2006-05-09 23:27:51,
> dmn=5.2.113/2006-07-26
>
> -L. wrote:
>> mdsu wrote:
>>> Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
>>> it.
>>
>> You came in here asking for advice and blaming the vet - I told you the
>> truth - that murmurs are oftentimes missed by very good vets.
>>
>>> And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
>>> certainly not welcome.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>
>> Well Jackass, when you post to a newsgroup how upset you are with the
>> HS and wouldn't have taken the cat if you had known it has a medical
>> issue, what the **** do you expect? If you are THAT upset about the
>> cat, take it back. It's not neuroscience. And by the way, if you
>> don't want opinions, don't post to a world-wide unmoderated group.
>> Sheesh. If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
>> join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
>> needs.
>>
>> -L.
>>
> You know, normally I'm a nice guy. But go **** yourself. And when
> you're
> done, pull the pole out of your **** or ass as the case may be.
>
> Rich
>
> *****
>
> Rich, honey, don't be sending hatemail to my email account. Because
> when you do, I'll just post it here for the whole world to see what an
> idiot and asshole you are. As if there were any doubt...
>
> -L.
>

Phil P.
October 9th 06, 06:43 AM
"mdsu" > wrote in message
...
> I'll clean Charlie's teeth 2-3 times/week. For the time being, I am not
> going to take Charlie to the cardiologist. $500 is a lot of money to
> spend for a "maybe." I'll watch him and get him the care if and when he
> needs it.

I would rethink that decision if I were you. If you wait for him to become
symptomatic, the problem will be harder to treat. Most heart problems in
cats respond to treatment better in the early stages. Getting an accurate
diagnosis and treatment now might delay progression or even reverse certain
types of conditions so that he doesn't become symptomatic.

Also, how do you know your vet made the right call? He could have mistaken
a heart sound or lung sound for a murmur- especially if he used an adult
stethoscope.

Think it over.

jmc
October 10th 06, 12:05 PM
Suddenly, without warning, mdsu exclaimed (05-Oct-06 12:21 AM):
> As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
> society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
> morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
> recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
> $500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
> murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
> something more involved.
>
> My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
> hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
> was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
> with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
> medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.
>
> It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
> she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
> vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
> And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
> medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
> the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.
>
> I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
> humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
> led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
> about Charlie's medical condition.
>
> Rich

My cat has an intermittent heart murmur. Same vet hears it sometimes,
sometimes not. So there may have *been* no murmur for the humane
society vet to hear.

So, it's likely the vet is neither incompetent, or withholding information.

Incidentally, murmurs are not terribly uncommon in young cats, and often
clear up as they get older. You can find information on this on the
'net, with a bit of googling.


jmc