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Artificial Silence
October 4th 06, 04:30 PM
My cat was diagnosed with CRF.

He is between 7-8. He has mildly elevated creatinine levels and
kidneys that are about 10% too small.

He has eaten dry Wellness Lite for most of his life, which as many
people know, is one of the few cat foods that doesn't have by products
in it and is made with human grade ingredients.

The vet mentioned "K/D Diet" which I discovered is made by Hills,
makers of "Science Diet," about which I've heard some not-so-nice
things. Looking up the info on "K/D Diet" shows it's made with by
products:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/product_details.jsp?FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302037389&bmUID=1159453150344&PRODUCT<>prd_id=845524441760666

Looking a bit more I found one by Eukanuba (Iams) that looks better
called "EVDF Multi-Stage Renal Nutritional Kidney Formula." It doesn't
appear to have any by products:

http://www.petrx.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=253

The only other food I could find is by Purina and called "Purina NF."
The dry type doesn't seem to have any by products in it:

http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/FelineProductDetail.aspx?prod=16

It was suggested to feed Wysong as something that is comparable to
Wellness.

I found that the Wysong Rx food for kidney health is Nephreon:

http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/nephreon.pdf

It has a high protein content at 50%. The other Rx foods by Hills,
Eukanuba, and Purina all have reduced protein levels below 30%. I had
e-mailed Wysong asking about the high protein content of the Rx food,
as well as the fact that it seems to be for BOTH dogs and cats.

I got a real lengthy reply, a lot of which looks like some copy and
pasted info as well as promotional info. It's left me more confused
than ever as to what I should be doing to help my cat. Some of the
points from the text:

- Wysong doesn't believe reduced protein food is necessary or even
good for cats with CRF. (This contradicts my vet who mentioned Hills
K/D Diet.)

- The Wysong Nephreon Rx food is not meant to be a primary diet, but
"meant to be more of an adjunct diet." (???) They recommend I feed
their product for senior cats (Geriatrx) if my cat has CRF. (???)

Here's the text of the reply. (The first part is about why some of
their foods are the same formula for both dogs and cats.) Does it
confuse you as much as it does me?

-------------------------

"Wysong does have several foods that are Canine/Feline in nature,
including Archetype™ (“complete” for cats and dogs of all ages),
Anergen™ (“complete” for cats over 6 months and dogs of all
life-stages – recommend additional meat for cats), Vegan™ (designed to
be supplemented with fresh meat or the All Meat Diets), the canned
Gourmet Diets™ and Stew Diets™ (complete for cats and dogs of all
ages), and the All Meat Canned Diets™ (designed to be a supplement to
the dry diets, or when fed alone, supplemented with Call of the
Wild™). Wysong Diets are designed to mimic the animal’s natural
feeding patterns. As with all Wysong-designed programs, our goal is to
feed companion animals what they are genetically adapted to. In the
wild, cats and dogs have a fundamentally similar carnivorous
(meat-based) diet. For instance, in the wild a wolf and lynx hunt for
essentially the same type of prey animals. The difference is that cats
are obligate carnivores, which means that they require meat in their
diet because they cannot manufacture certain nutrients that are only
found in meat, whereas dogs can live on more vegetable matter because
they can manufacture those nutrients within their own body. However,
as mentioned, they normally would both eat a similar type meat-based
diet and not the processed diets prepared by humans.

For cats with kidney disease we generally recommend Geriatrx™, which
is available in a dry and canned form. You might also consider PDG™.
It contains probiotics and enzymes, which enhance digestion and
absorption.

Nephreon™ is actually based on Wysong’s Archetype™ diet, which is a
dehydrated raw food. You can feed it dry or add water to it in order
to rehydrate it. This diet is designed to provide a concentrated
source of natural nutrition combined with nutraceuticals for the
specific health problem. It is meant to be more of an adjunct diet,
than a sole diet.

Contrary to popular myth, diets rich in protein ('high protein diets')
do not cause kidney damage. Research done decades ago indicated that
rodents were adversely affected by diets high in protein and misguided
researchers extrapolated that data to apply to the canine and feline.

Recent evidence indicates that protein may not be a factor in slowing
the kidney disease progression. '...Restriction of protein intake does
not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal
function.' (See KIRKS VETERINARY THERAPY XIII, Small Animal Practice,
W. B. Saunders, page 861). The effect of protein restriction on the
progression of renal damage in dogs and cats remains controversial and
no definitive study exists on this matter. Not enough protein in the
diet can be equally detrimental and protein malnutrition in patients
with renal failure can facilitate the occurrence of other
complications or lead to an early death. Studies have revealed that
protein restriction made no difference at all in longevity. The effect
of dietary protein restriction alone on the progression of chronic
renal failure is either minimal or non-existent. Depletion of protein
reserves can occur if too little protein is fed or consumed.
Studies have showed that there is an inverse relation between the
blood urea content and the biological value of the diet: Wysong RX
diets have highest quality meat protein of any pet diet.

Inadequate and improper protein sources should be considered. The
kidneys also take a hard hit from many toxins to which the body is
exposed. All of the conventional nutrition research is done with
processed foods. Therefore, a diet that has high levels of cooked
protein is more stressful to the kidneys and results in higher
toxicity (BUN) in the blood if the kidneys are not functioning well:
Wysong RX diets are non-thermally processed, and the protein is not
degraded.

Chemicals in food (like preservatives, coloring agents and artificial
flavoring agents) and in the environment (contaminated water, air and
soil) are directly stressful to the kidneys: Wysong RX diets do not
contain artificial color or additives. WRX incorporates state-of-the
art packaging technology including oxygen and light barrier film &
vacuum evacuation thus preventing the formation of toxins by auto
oxidation & photo oxidation.

High blood pressure in the kidney deteriorates the organ rapidly, and
a decrease in blood pressure can slow the progression of kidney
disease. Studies have shown that, supplementation with dietary omega 3
oils provides renoprotective effects in dogs with subtotal nephrectomy
models of CRF. Proteinurea & histologic injury (glomerulus) were less
in dogs receiving fish oil. Supplementation with omega 6 oils
increases GFR:

Along with Wysong RX diets Nephreon TM , supplementation with
nephurol, and Wysong EFA is suggested.

The probiotic bacteria in the gut hydrolyze urea to ammonia and
incorporate it into their own protein. When the bacteria are excreted
in the feces, along with them go the nitrogenous wastes. The
growth-promoting effects of probiotics have been ascribed to
suppression of urea hydrolysis and subsequently reduced ammonia
production in the GI tract: The fermentation products in Wysong RX
diets aid in the growth of beneficial probiotic bacteria in the gut,
which in turn reduce the GI load of urea.

References:

1. Canine & Feline Nutrition, second edition, by Case Carey & Hirakawa
Daristotle.

2. Managing a renal crisis by Martha S. Gearheart, DVM, Diplomate,
American board of Veterinary Practitioners

3. Nutritional management of chronic renal failure (CRF) in Dogs &
Cats by Dennis J. Chew, DVM, Diplomate ACVIM (Internal medicine), Ohio
State University, College of Veterinary Medicine, Columbus, Ohio &
Patricia A. Schnck, DVM, PhD, Michigan State University, College of
Veterinary Medicine, East Lansing, MI.

4. geriatric Nutrition: Protein; Purina Research Update

5. Kidney failure & diseases in the dog & the cat at ThePetCenter.com

Do not be misled by foods that claim 100% complete and balanced
(http://www.wysong.net/dontbefooled/100complete.shtml). Even though we
may not make such a claim on a label, our foods have as much and more
nutrition than any on the market.
Regardless of how good a food is, it should not be fed at every meal.
That is why we do not make the claim, not because our foods are
deficient in some way."

-------------------------

The other thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way regarding "what
should I feed?" with Wysong is their answer to that question:

http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/imconfused.pdf

It strikes me as kind of condescending, and also doesn't answer the
question. In my case, it is a bigger deal because my cat will
basically be on a therapeutic diet.

So if I do go with Wysong, I'm currently looking at:

- Geriatrx (every other day)
- Nephreon (every other day)
- PDG (surface sprinkle every day)
- EFA
- Nephurol

Additionally, this link:

http://www.wysong.net/therapy_prevention.shtml

Suggests that additional products should also be fed to a cat or dog
with kidney problems:

- F Biotic
- Pet Inoculant
- One or more of their "antioxidant" products: Spectrox, Food Ace,
Food C, and Mega C
- Well Spring (added to drinking water)

And this link:

http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/introduction.pdf

Suggests to also feed Archetype and All Meat foods (page 27).


Eukanuba EVDF is looking a lot more straightforward and simpler. Its
ingredients are comparable to Wellness, and it even costs about the
same.

I'm really torn about what to do. Money isn't a problem, I can spend
the extra bucks on all the different Wysong items. But with Wysong,
there's so much mixing and matching and adding different supplements
I'm worried I won't be feeding my cat correctly for his condition.

I would be most interested and appreciative of any input.

Gail Futoran
October 4th 06, 07:58 PM
"Artificial Silence" > wrote in message
...
> My cat was diagnosed with CRF.
>
> He is between 7-8. He has mildly elevated creatinine levels and
> kidneys that are about 10% too small.
>
> He has eaten dry Wellness Lite for most of his life, which as many
> people know, is one of the few cat foods that doesn't have by products
> in it and is made with human grade ingredients.
>
> The vet mentioned "K/D Diet" which I discovered is made by Hills,
> makers of "Science Diet," about which I've heard some not-so-nice
> things. Looking up the info on "K/D Diet" shows it's made with by
> products:
>
> http://www.hillspet.com/products/product_details.jsp?FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302037389&bmUID=1159453150344&PRODUCT<>prd_id=845524441760666
[snip]

When one of my cats developed CRF (around age 15), my vet prescribed Hill's
K/D. Her kidney values improved under this diet. She eventually died
(almost 19 years of age) of congestive heart failure following years
battling seizures and being on phenobarbitol.

Check out this link for dry cat food analysis:
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm
There's also a canned food page:
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm

There are a bunch of other CRF pages you can find. There is contradictory
information out there, so it's tough to decide when you want to do the best
for your cat.

My non-expert preference is to continue feeding elderly cats a quality
complete and balanced food, but with lower phosphorus and protein levels,
and not screw around with "supplements" or "herbal remedies" that can
potentially do more harm than good. Not only did my elderly cat's kidney
values improve, but my young cats ate the same "CRF" food for a few years
(supplemented with adult canned) to no ill effects, as far as I and my vet
can tell.

Gail F.
Owned by Lao Ma, Ephiny, Minya, Melosa

Artificial Silence
October 4th 06, 09:47 PM
"Gail Futoran" > wrote:
>When one of my cats developed CRF (around age 15), my vet prescribed Hill's
>K/D. Her kidney values improved under this diet. She eventually died
>(almost 19 years of age) of congestive heart failure following years
>battling seizures and being on phenobarbitol.
>
>Check out this link for dry cat food analysis:
>http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/dry.htm
>There's also a canned food page:
>http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm

I know that renal Rx foods are supposed to be low protein, low sodium,
and low phosphorous. The Wysong article talks about low protein
probably not being necessary, which my vet agreed with, but he did say
low phosphate and low sodium was definitely important. I find those
links very enlightening... Wysong doesn't publish that info at all, I
wonder why... Geriatrx has .90% phosphorous, which is what they
recommend for CRF cats?!?!

I hate to sound negative, but based on all the correspondence I've
gotten from Wysong so far, it almost makes it sound like they are
saying that the CRF was *caused* by not feeding their food, and
switching to *any* of their foods will help improve my cat's
condition. I would be willing to bet this is probably what they tell
anyone coming to them with questions about feeding their foods to a
cat with *any* health problem.

"Gail Futoran" > wrote:
>My non-expert preference is to continue feeding elderly cats a quality
>complete and balanced food, but with lower phosphorus and protein levels,
>and not screw around with "supplements" or "herbal remedies" that can
>potentially do more harm than good.

I have been posting around the net and this is what I keep hearing...
a cat is on a high quality food (like Wellness, Sensible Choice, etc.)
and is diagnosed with CRF at some age over 10 years, is switched to
Hills K/D, and pretty much lives to a natural age with little to no
visible renal symptoms.

I will probably just go with Hills K/D, which is what my vet
recommended in the first place...

Gail Futoran
October 5th 06, 02:01 PM
"Artificial Silence" > wrote in message
...
[big snip]
> I have been posting around the net and this is what I keep hearing...
> a cat is on a high quality food (like Wellness, Sensible Choice, etc.)
> and is diagnosed with CRF at some age over 10 years, is switched to
> Hills K/D, and pretty much lives to a natural age with little to no
> visible renal symptoms.
>
> I will probably just go with Hills K/D, which is what my vet
> recommended in the first place...

I hope it all works out for your cat.

Gail F.
Housemaid to Lao Ma, Ephiny, Minya, Melosa

Kathy Morgan
October 6th 06, 06:58 AM
Artificial Silence > wrote:

> I will probably just go with Hills K/D, which is what my vet
> recommended in the first place...

That's what I'm giving my cat, also recently diagnosed with CRF. She
won't touch the canned K/D, but seems quite happy with the dry K/D. Her
vet suggested R/D if she wouldn't eat the K/D, but she won't eat the
canned R/D either. It's important for CRF cats to stay hydrated, and
canned food helps with that, but even the very best food is worthless if
the cat won't eat it.

You mentioned in your first post that one of your concerns with the
Science Diet foods is that they use byproducts in the food. "Byproduct"
just means parts of the animals that we humans usually choose not to
eat, and there really is nothing wrong with byproduct meats. (Some
people would regard the liver, heart, and tongue to be byproducts--I
call them delicacies.) Cats, given a choice, will eat almost all parts
of their prey, including bones, guts, and hair, and they actually need
some nutrients that they get from the parts we would reject. When mine
eat a mouse they've caught themselves (which they prefer to the food I
offer them) the only thing left is the stomach. I don't think you
should have any concerns about the byproducts as long as the nutrient
values and digestibility are good.

--
Kathy - help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>
OE-quotefix can fix OE:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/>

Mary Weatherford
October 9th 06, 12:39 AM
Please look at the CRF groups out there. I went through that with my cat
Jimmy and found a great group of helpful people with advice and experience.
Information about dry and canned cat foods are here, too. Many cats will not
eat the vet recommended Hills K/D and here you can find other choices.
Cat food info http://www.mindspring.com/~kerspin/

Check out the yahoo group for support and help. You will need to join but it
is free.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/felinecrfsupport/

You don't have to go it alone with CRF
Best wishes
Mary (with Bruno & Checkers)



"Artificial Silence" > wrote in message
...
> My cat was diagnosed with CRF.
>
> He is between 7-8. He has mildly elevated creatinine levels and
> kidneys that are about 10% too small.
>
> He has eaten dry Wellness Lite for most of his life, which as many
> people know, is one of the few cat foods that doesn't have by products
> in it and is made with human grade ingredients.
>
> The vet mentioned "K/D Diet" which I discovered is made by Hills,
> makers of "Science Diet," about which I've heard some not-so-nice
> things. Looking up the info on "K/D Diet" shows it's made with by
> products:
>
> http://www.hillspet.com/products/product_details.jsp?FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302037389&bmUID=1159453150344&PRODUCT<>prd_id=845524441760666
>
> Looking a bit more I found one by Eukanuba (Iams) that looks better
> called "EVDF Multi-Stage Renal Nutritional Kidney Formula." It doesn't
> appear to have any by products:
>
> http://www.petrx.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=253
>
> The only other food I could find is by Purina and called "Purina NF."
> The dry type doesn't seem to have any by products in it:
>
> http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/FelineProductDetail.aspx?prod=16
>
> It was suggested to feed Wysong as something that is comparable to
> Wellness.
>
> I found that the Wysong Rx food for kidney health is Nephreon:
>
> http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/nephreon.pdf
>
> It has a high protein content at 50%. The other Rx foods by Hills,
> Eukanuba, and Purina all have reduced protein levels below 30%. I had
> e-mailed Wysong asking about the high protein content of the Rx food,
> as well as the fact that it seems to be for BOTH dogs and cats.
>
> I got a real lengthy reply, a lot of which looks like some copy and
> pasted info as well as promotional info. It's left me more confused
> than ever as to what I should be doing to help my cat. Some of the
> points from the text:
>
> - Wysong doesn't believe reduced protein food is necessary or even
> good for cats with CRF. (This contradicts my vet who mentioned Hills
> K/D Diet.)
>
> - The Wysong Nephreon Rx food is not meant to be a primary diet, but
> "meant to be more of an adjunct diet." (???) They recommend I feed
> their product for senior cats (Geriatrx) if my cat has CRF. (???)
>
> Here's the text of the reply. (The first part is about why some of
> their foods are the same formula for both dogs and cats.) Does it
> confuse you as much as it does me?
>
> -------------------------
>
> "Wysong does have several foods that are Canine/Feline in nature,
> including ArchetypeT ("complete" for cats and dogs of all ages),
> AnergenT ("complete" for cats over 6 months and dogs of all
> life-stages - recommend additional meat for cats), VeganT (designed to
> be supplemented with fresh meat or the All Meat Diets), the canned
> Gourmet DietsT and Stew DietsT (complete for cats and dogs of all
> ages), and the All Meat Canned DietsT (designed to be a supplement to
> the dry diets, or when fed alone, supplemented with Call of the
> WildT). Wysong Diets are designed to mimic the animal's natural
> feeding patterns. As with all Wysong-designed programs, our goal is to
> feed companion animals what they are genetically adapted to. In the
> wild, cats and dogs have a fundamentally similar carnivorous
> (meat-based) diet. For instance, in the wild a wolf and lynx hunt for
> essentially the same type of prey animals. The difference is that cats
> are obligate carnivores, which means that they require meat in their
> diet because they cannot manufacture certain nutrients that are only
> found in meat, whereas dogs can live on more vegetable matter because
> they can manufacture those nutrients within their own body. However,
> as mentioned, they normally would both eat a similar type meat-based
> diet and not the processed diets prepared by humans.
>
> For cats with kidney disease we generally recommend GeriatrxT, which
> is available in a dry and canned form. You might also consider PDGT.
> It contains probiotics and enzymes, which enhance digestion and
> absorption.
>
> NephreonT is actually based on Wysong's ArchetypeT diet, which is a
> dehydrated raw food. You can feed it dry or add water to it in order
> to rehydrate it. This diet is designed to provide a concentrated
> source of natural nutrition combined with nutraceuticals for the
> specific health problem. It is meant to be more of an adjunct diet,
> than a sole diet.
>
> Contrary to popular myth, diets rich in protein ('high protein diets')
> do not cause kidney damage. Research done decades ago indicated that
> rodents were adversely affected by diets high in protein and misguided
> researchers extrapolated that data to apply to the canine and feline.
>
> Recent evidence indicates that protein may not be a factor in slowing
> the kidney disease progression. '...Restriction of protein intake does
> not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal
> function.' (See KIRKS VETERINARY THERAPY XIII, Small Animal Practice,
> W. B. Saunders, page 861). The effect of protein restriction on the
> progression of renal damage in dogs and cats remains controversial and
> no definitive study exists on this matter. Not enough protein in the
> diet can be equally detrimental and protein malnutrition in patients
> with renal failure can facilitate the occurrence of other
> complications or lead to an early death. Studies have revealed that
> protein restriction made no difference at all in longevity. The effect
> of dietary protein restriction alone on the progression of chronic
> renal failure is either minimal or non-existent. Depletion of protein
> reserves can occur if too little protein is fed or consumed.
> Studies have showed that there is an inverse relation between the
> blood urea content and the biological value of the diet: Wysong RX
> diets have highest quality meat protein of any pet diet.
>
> Inadequate and improper protein sources should be considered. The
> kidneys also take a hard hit from many toxins to which the body is
> exposed. All of the conventional nutrition research is done with
> processed foods. Therefore, a diet that has high levels of cooked
> protein is more stressful to the kidneys and results in higher
> toxicity (BUN) in the blood if the kidneys are not functioning well:
> Wysong RX diets are non-thermally processed, and the protein is not
> degraded.
>
> Chemicals in food (like preservatives, coloring agents and artificial
> flavoring agents) and in the environment (contaminated water, air and
> soil) are directly stressful to the kidneys: Wysong RX diets do not
> contain artificial color or additives. WRX incorporates state-of-the
> art packaging technology including oxygen and light barrier film &
> vacuum evacuation thus preventing the formation of toxins by auto
> oxidation & photo oxidation.
>
> High blood pressure in the kidney deteriorates the organ rapidly, and
> a decrease in blood pressure can slow the progression of kidney
> disease. Studies have shown that, supplementation with dietary omega 3
> oils provides renoprotective effects in dogs with subtotal nephrectomy
> models of CRF. Proteinurea & histologic injury (glomerulus) were less
> in dogs receiving fish oil. Supplementation with omega 6 oils
> increases GFR:
>
> Along with Wysong RX diets Nephreon TM , supplementation with
> nephurol, and Wysong EFA is suggested.
>
> The probiotic bacteria in the gut hydrolyze urea to ammonia and
> incorporate it into their own protein. When the bacteria are excreted
> in the feces, along with them go the nitrogenous wastes. The
> growth-promoting effects of probiotics have been ascribed to
> suppression of urea hydrolysis and subsequently reduced ammonia
> production in the GI tract: The fermentation products in Wysong RX
> diets aid in the growth of beneficial probiotic bacteria in the gut,
> which in turn reduce the GI load of urea.
>
> References:
>
> 1. Canine & Feline Nutrition, second edition, by Case Carey & Hirakawa
> Daristotle.
>
> 2. Managing a renal crisis by Martha S. Gearheart, DVM, Diplomate,
> American board of Veterinary Practitioners
>
> 3. Nutritional management of chronic renal failure (CRF) in Dogs &
> Cats by Dennis J. Chew, DVM, Diplomate ACVIM (Internal medicine), Ohio
> State University, College of Veterinary Medicine, Columbus, Ohio &
> Patricia A. Schnck, DVM, PhD, Michigan State University, College of
> Veterinary Medicine, East Lansing, MI.
>
> 4. geriatric Nutrition: Protein; Purina Research Update
>
> 5. Kidney failure & diseases in the dog & the cat at ThePetCenter.com
>
> Do not be misled by foods that claim 100% complete and balanced
> (http://www.wysong.net/dontbefooled/100complete.shtml). Even though we
> may not make such a claim on a label, our foods have as much and more
> nutrition than any on the market.
> Regardless of how good a food is, it should not be fed at every meal.
> That is why we do not make the claim, not because our foods are
> deficient in some way."
>
> -------------------------
>
> The other thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way regarding "what
> should I feed?" with Wysong is their answer to that question:
>
> http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/imconfused.pdf
>
> It strikes me as kind of condescending, and also doesn't answer the
> question. In my case, it is a bigger deal because my cat will
> basically be on a therapeutic diet.
>
> So if I do go with Wysong, I'm currently looking at:
>
> - Geriatrx (every other day)
> - Nephreon (every other day)
> - PDG (surface sprinkle every day)
> - EFA
> - Nephurol
>
> Additionally, this link:
>
> http://www.wysong.net/therapy_prevention.shtml
>
> Suggests that additional products should also be fed to a cat or dog
> with kidney problems:
>
> - F Biotic
> - Pet Inoculant
> - One or more of their "antioxidant" products: Spectrox, Food Ace,
> Food C, and Mega C
> - Well Spring (added to drinking water)
>
> And this link:
>
> http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/introduction.pdf
>
> Suggests to also feed Archetype and All Meat foods (page 27).
>
>
> Eukanuba EVDF is looking a lot more straightforward and simpler. Its
> ingredients are comparable to Wellness, and it even costs about the
> same.
>
> I'm really torn about what to do. Money isn't a problem, I can spend
> the extra bucks on all the different Wysong items. But with Wysong,
> there's so much mixing and matching and adding different supplements
> I'm worried I won't be feeding my cat correctly for his condition.
>
> I would be most interested and appreciative of any input.
>