PDA

View Full Version : How do I know if he is reblocking?


MoMo via CatKB.com
October 14th 06, 12:39 AM
I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat
last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the
first thing I do is go to the litter box. At that time, my other cat was
using it. So, when he was done, I cleaned it and there was two total pees in
it from the day. After a little bit, my little guy who was blocked used it
and he did not pee all that much, although it was not much less at all than
my healthy cat. There was no straining and he is no exhibiting any other
symptoms like he did last week. I would say that the pee in the litter box
amounted to about the size of a golf ball. Does this sound like he is
reblocking? You know, before he blocked, I never paid attention to the size
of the pees in the litter box, so now I don't know what is normal. Any
advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone!

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200610/1

Buddy's Mom
October 14th 06, 01:23 AM
I have never had a blocked kitty - thank God - but my 4 year old pees
twice a day an oval about 4 inches long and 3 inches wide. He is on
canned food.

MoMo via CatKB.com wrote:
> I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat
> last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the
> first thing I do is go to the litter box. At that time, my other cat was
> using it. So, when he was done, I cleaned it and there was two total pees in
> it from the day. After a little bit, my little guy who was blocked used it
> and he did not pee all that much, although it was not much less at all than
> my healthy cat. There was no straining and he is no exhibiting any other
> symptoms like he did last week. I would say that the pee in the litter box
> amounted to about the size of a golf ball. Does this sound like he is
> reblocking? You know, before he blocked, I never paid attention to the size
> of the pees in the litter box, so now I don't know what is normal. Any
> advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone!
>
> --
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200610/1

Phil P.
October 14th 06, 10:03 AM
"MoMo via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat
> last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the
> first thing I do is go to the litter box. At that time, my other cat was
> using it. So, when he was done, I cleaned it and there was two total pees
in
> it from the day. After a little bit, my little guy who was blocked used
it
> and he did not pee all that much, although it was not much less at all
than
> my healthy cat. There was no straining and he is no exhibiting any other
> symptoms like he did last week. I would say that the pee in the litter
box
> amounted to about the size of a golf ball. Does this sound like he is
> reblocking? You know, before he blocked, I never paid attention to the
size
> of the pees in the litter box, so now I don't know what is normal. Any
> advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone!

Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption and
won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys.

Phil

tension_on_the_wire
October 14th 06, 09:29 PM
Phil P. wrote:
>
> Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption and
> won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys.
>
> Phil

What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
pees?

--tension

Phil P.
October 14th 06, 10:03 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> >
> > Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption
and
> > won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys.
> >
> > Phil
>
> What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
> to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
> pees?

Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly
calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine
volume the more dilute the urine and the lower the risk of crystals forming.

Any more questions?

tension_on_the_wire
October 16th 06, 06:30 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly
> calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine
> volume the more dilute the urine and the lower the risk of crystals forming.
>
> Any more questions?

Thank you for your response.

Yes, indeed, I have more questions. First of all, are you a DVM?
I'll be much more reassured, though it wouldn't be necessary
if you can explain the mechanism sufficiently as you did.
I am aware of the value of diluting the urine to reduce
the precipitation factor of crystalloids, but this is not
generally a method for increasing water intake with
humans (including babies who like cats cannot be
told to drink more) and so my next question:

Second of all, I am very curious to know what it is about
a cat's physiology that would protect him from
hypertension and renal disease from too much salt
intake?

Third of all, is there really nothing that could be
added directly to the water to make it more palatable
to the cat without having to make him thirsty or
altering the balance of his fluids and
electrolytes?

Fourth of all, since you are asking for
questions, what is the most common
calculus composition in cats?

--tension

Phil P.
October 16th 06, 11:34 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly
> > calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine
> > volume the more dilute the urine and the lower the risk of crystals
forming.
> >
> > Any more questions?
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> Yes, indeed, I have more questions.

It was a rhetorical question...

Seems like you have a lot of research to do...

Are you related to Treeline by any chance?

MoMo via CatKB.com
October 16th 06, 02:27 PM
Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in the
meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's
urine output is still get smaller everyday. I went to the vet's over the
weekend (without my cat, just to pick up food) and told the vet about this
and was told that as long as he is peeing when he is in the litter box he is
not blocked. But now when I check, he is only putting out urine that is
clumping to about the size of a dime and I am getting really worried. He is
not straining in the litter box when he does this so could this just be how
he usually is? I never paid attention before the blockage. He had two
decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night. What
do you guys think?

Phil P. wrote:
>> > Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly
>> > calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine
>[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Yes, indeed, I have more questions.
>
>It was a rhetorical question...
>
>Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
>
>Are you related to Treeline by any chance?

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200610/1

tension_on_the_wire
October 16th 06, 06:12 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote:
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > Any more questions?
> >
> > Thank you for your response.
> > Yes, indeed, I have more questions.
>
> It was a rhetorical question...>
> Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
> Are you related to Treeline by any chance?

No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you
not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of
research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me
that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
it contains sufficient water content.

A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite
crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon
which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as
being the first and most appropriate suggestion.

The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat
is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water
content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about
10% water. Cats on dry food will drink more free water, but not
generally enough to compensate what they would get if they ate
a watery diet such as wet food. Cats do not have a strong thirst
mechanism and trying to heighten it with salt, rather than working
with the cats own physiology and giving him a diet which is less
prone to causing a state of chronic dehydration seems a much
more sensible route to me. Since struvite crystals are highly
precipitable in low water content, I don't really see the point of
adding salt to a diet to temporarily increase thirst, and water intake
in a way which would then subsequently trigger a compensatory
response of increased urine *and* salt output resulting once again
in the original state of chronic dehydration. That seems like a
quick fix solution, rather than a definitive answer that might
actually get at the etiology of the original problem.

And I fail to see why cats are *protected* from hypertension. My own
cat is hypertensive, though not from salt intake, for sure. But cats
are prone to hypertension for other reasons, a common cause
being hyperthyroidism, for example, and since chronic renal failure,
which most certainly can result from hypertension, is one of the number
one killers of domestic cats, I am curious to know why you think salt
can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?

I am not a DVM, and if you are, and if you are here in good faith to
answer people's questions, why won't you engage in an informative
discussion with me about this? If I am mistaken about anything
I have said here, I would most humbly appreciate being corrected.
But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
arrogant and condescending of you. It would certainly be informative
for many people reading this post including the original poster who has
problems with his cat.

--tension

Phil P.
October 16th 06, 08:29 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote:
> > > Phil P. wrote:
> > > > Any more questions?
> > >
> > > Thank you for your response.
> > > Yes, indeed, I have more questions.
> >
> > It was a rhetorical question...>
> > Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
> > Are you related to Treeline by any chance?
>
> No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name.

That's a surprise.

Why did you
> not answer any of my questions?

Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a
few hundred
times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is
because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post.


I have done quite a bit of
> research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
> so surprised by your suggestion

Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is--
Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough
and you don't know as much as you think you do.



is that it would seem to me
> that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
> are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)


Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine
whose "qualified".


> should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
> it contains sufficient water content.


No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it?
Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the
first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group
to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to
show how much you (don't) know..


From: "Phil P." >
Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: My cat just had a blockage. What now?

"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned
food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's
s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium
oxalate.

Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute
urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent
urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become
large enough to interfere with urination.
You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls
and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain."

When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look
up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something.

Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better?
http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Whi ch_is_reall


<snip>
>
I am curious to know why you think salt
> can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?

Here's why:

J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.
Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al.
Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats?

Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627
Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA.
Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood
pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. .


> I am not a DVM, and if you are,

Neither am I.


and if you are here in good faith to
> answer people's questions,

I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for
****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know
so much.

By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want
all the groups to see what a jerk you are?

MoMo via CatKB.com
October 17th 06, 01:45 AM
tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to
say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my
kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by
my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking
about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt
to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I
really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well)
but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank
you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than
you know.

Phil P. wrote:
>> > > > Any more questions?
>> > >
>[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name.
>
>That's a surprise.
>
>Why did you
>> not answer any of my questions?
>
>Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a
>few hundred
>times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is
>because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post.
>
>I have done quite a bit of
>> research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
>> so surprised by your suggestion
>
>Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is--
>Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough
>and you don't know as much as you think you do.
>
>is that it would seem to me
>> that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
>> are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
>
>Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine
>whose "qualified".
>
>> should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
>> it contains sufficient water content.
>
>No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it?
>Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the
>first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group
>to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to
>show how much you (don't) know..
>
>From: "Phil P." >
>Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM
>Subject: Re: My cat just had a blockage. What now?
>
>"Phil P." > wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>"Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned
>food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's
>s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium
>oxalate.
>
>Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute
>urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent
>urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become
>large enough to interfere with urination.
>You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls
>and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain."
>
>When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look
>up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something.
>
>Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better?
>http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Whi ch_is_reall
>
><snip>
>
>I am curious to know why you think salt
>> can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?
>
>Here's why:
>
>J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.
>Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al.
>Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats?
>
>Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627
>Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA.
>Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood
>pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. .
>
>> I am not a DVM, and if you are,
>
>Neither am I.
>
> and if you are here in good faith to
>> answer people's questions,
>
>I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for
>****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know
>so much.
>
>By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want
>all the groups to see what a jerk you are?

--
Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Matthew
October 17th 06, 01:48 AM
Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition
with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL

"MoMo via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want
> to
> say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with
> my
> kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me
> by
> my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is
> talking
> about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of
> salt
> to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before
> I
> really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as
> well)
> but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil,
> thank
> you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more
> than
> you know.
>
> Phil P. wrote:
>>> > > > Any more questions?
>>> > >
>>[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>>
>>> No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name.
>>
>>That's a surprise.
>>
>>Why did you
>>> not answer any of my questions?
>>
>>Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a
>>few hundred
>>times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is
>>because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post.
>>
>>I have done quite a bit of
>>> research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
>>> so surprised by your suggestion
>>
>>Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it
>>is--
>>Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough
>>and you don't know as much as you think you do.
>>
>>is that it would seem to me
>>> that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
>>> are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
>>
>>Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to
>>determine
>>whose "qualified".
>>
>>> should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
>>> it contains sufficient water content.
>>
>>No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it?
>>Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the
>>first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group
>>to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying
>>to
>>show how much you (don't) know..
>>
>>From: "Phil P." >
>>Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM
>>Subject: Re: My cat just had a blockage. What now?
>>
>>"Phil P." > wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]
>>
>>"Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned
>>food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's
>>s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for
>>calcium
>>oxalate.
>>
>>Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute
>>urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent
>>urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become
>>large enough to interfere with urination.
>>You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water
>>bowls
>>and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain."
>>
>>When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and
>>look
>>up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something.
>>
>>Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better?
>>http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Whi ch_is_reall
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I am curious to know why you think salt
>>> can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?
>>
>>Here's why:
>>
>>J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.
>>Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al.
>>Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats?
>>
>>Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627
>>Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA.
>>Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood
>>pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. .
>>
>>> I am not a DVM, and if you are,
>>
>>Neither am I.
>>
>> and if you are here in good faith to
>>> answer people's questions,
>>
>>I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for
>>****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know
>>so much.
>>
>>By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you
>>want
>>all the groups to see what a jerk you are?
>
> --
> Message posted via http://www.catkb.com
>

Rhonda
October 17th 06, 03:02 AM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
>
>>"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote:
>>
>>>Phil P. wrote:
>>>
>>>>Any more questions?
>>>
>>>Thank you for your response.
>>>Yes, indeed, I have more questions.
>>
>>It was a rhetorical question...>
>>Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
>>Are you related to Treeline by any chance?
>
>
> No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you
> not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of
> research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
> so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me
> that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
> are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
> should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
> it contains sufficient water content.
>
> A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite
> crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon
> which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as
> being the first and most appropriate suggestion.
>
> The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat
> is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water
> content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about
> 10% water. Cats on dry food will drink more free water, but not
> generally enough to compensate what they would get if they ate
> a watery diet such as wet food. Cats do not have a strong thirst
> mechanism and trying to heighten it with salt, rather than working
> with the cats own physiology and giving him a diet which is less
> prone to causing a state of chronic dehydration seems a much
> more sensible route to me. Since struvite crystals are highly
> precipitable in low water content, I don't really see the point of
> adding salt to a diet to temporarily increase thirst, and water intake
> in a way which would then subsequently trigger a compensatory
> response of increased urine *and* salt output resulting once again
> in the original state of chronic dehydration. That seems like a
> quick fix solution, rather than a definitive answer that might
> actually get at the etiology of the original problem.
>
> And I fail to see why cats are *protected* from hypertension. My own
> cat is hypertensive, though not from salt intake, for sure. But cats
> are prone to hypertension for other reasons, a common cause
> being hyperthyroidism, for example, and since chronic renal failure,
> which most certainly can result from hypertension, is one of the number
> one killers of domestic cats, I am curious to know why you think salt
> can be added to the diet so easily with impunity?
>
> I am not a DVM, and if you are, and if you are here in good faith to
> answer people's questions, why won't you engage in an informative
> discussion with me about this? If I am mistaken about anything
> I have said here, I would most humbly appreciate being corrected.
> But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
> arrogant and condescending of you. It would certainly be informative
> for many people reading this post including the original poster who has
> problems with his cat.

Tension,

It was wonderful to read your posts. You seem like a very intelligent,
and better yet -- in control of your emotions!

I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.

Hope you stick around and continue to be a level-headed voice, and be
willing to stick your neck out.

Rhonda

October 17th 06, 04:50 AM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:

> Phil P. wrote:
> > Seems like you have a lot of research to do...
> > Are you related to Treeline by any chance?

> No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you
> not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of
> research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am
> so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me
> that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you
> are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not)
> should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not
> it contains sufficient water content.
>
> A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite
> crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon
> which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as
> being the first and most appropriate suggestion.
>
> The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat
> is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water
> content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about
> 10% water.

My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything
dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression :)

You're right about water. One good article for me, geniune research
article in a refereed journal, I think, from across the pond stated
that cats on 100% canned food had zero crystals, either in fresh or
stored urine samples. That was pretty darn impressive. Zero crystals.
Unfortunately, they did not go into which canned foods, in case that
would matter. But even free in stored samples which would tend to
generate false positives, I do suspect.

You want a reference? You talking to me? Oops, wrong movie:

TITL: An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of
crystalluria in cats.

AUTH: Sturgess C P; Hesford A; Owen H; Privett R

ORGA: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of
Bristol,
Langford, Bristol BS40 5DU, UK.

CITE: J Feline Med Surg 2001 Jun; 3 (2): 81-5 Volume 3, Issue 2

ABST: Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of
urinary tract disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored
under differing condition and then examined for the presence of
crystalluria. Crystalluria was detected in at least one stored
sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed wet/dry food diet compared to
24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not detected in any
sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets.
Copyright 2001 European Society of Feline Medicine.

MJTR: Cat Diseases, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, veterinary.
Specimen Handling, veterinary.

MNTR: Animal. Animal Feed. Cat Diseases, urine. Cats. Female.
Kidney Calculi, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, urine. Magnesium
Compounds, urine. Male. Phosphates, urine. Predictive Value of
Tests. Specimen Handling, standards.

So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway,
keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around
this. Purina has most of their foods, all of them, above this except
for a very, very few.

It's not clear to me if the phosphorus has anything to do with
crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the
kidneys work more than they should have to.

Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading.
Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding
board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even
if he has the temperament of an angry diva :)

Upscale
October 17th 06, 05:59 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
>
> I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
> I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
> more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.

Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.

When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.

Rhonda
October 17th 06, 06:16 AM
Upscale wrote:
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
>
>>I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
>>I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
>>more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.
>
>
> Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
> matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
> drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.
>
> When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
> person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
> body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.

That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

Rhonda

Phil P.
October 17th 06, 06:27 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...

> That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
> the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

No, no no. Salt significantly increases water intake and urine production-
which is *exactly* what you want for a cat with any type of crystals--
especially calcium oxalate:

"Increasing water consumption by feeding increased amounts of canned food or
feeding a dry diet formulated with additional salt (7, 8, 9). It has been
shown that salt significantly increases water intake and urine production,
significantly decreases urinary concentrations of oxalate, and significantly
decreases relative supersaturation (RSS) for calcium oxalate (9,10). Salt
has not been shown to contribute to hypertension or renal disease in healthy
cats (11, 12)."

7. Buffington CAT, Chew DJ. Diet therapy in cats with lower urinary tract
disorders. Vet Med 1999; 94: 625-630.

8. Houston DM. Diagnosis and management of feline lower urinary tract
disease. Standards of Care: Emergency and Critical Care Medicine. Sept 2002;
4(8): 5-10.

9. Biourge V, Devois C, Morice G, et al. Dietary NaCl significantly
increases urine volume but does not increase urinary calcium oxalate
supersaturation in healthy cats. J Vet Intern Med 2001; 866.

10. Smith BH, Stevenson AE, Markwell PJ. Urinary relative supersaturations
of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced by diet. J Nutr 1998;
128:2763S-64S.

11. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary Nail
affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788.

12. Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride
intake on renal function and blood pressure n cats with normal and reduced
renal function. Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627.

excerpted from:

North American Veterinary Conference January 7, 2006
WATER INTAKE AND URINE OUTPUT: WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT CATS AND URINARY
TRACT DISORDERS

Doreen M. Houston, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ACVIM

Phil P.
October 17th 06, 06:42 AM
"MoMo via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
> Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in
the
> meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's
> urine output is still get smaller everyday. I went to the vet's over the
> weekend (without my cat, just to pick up food) and told the vet about this
> and was told that as long as he is peeing when he is in the litter box he
is
> not blocked. But now when I check, he is only putting out urine that is
> clumping to about the size of a dime and I am getting really worried. He
is
> not straining in the litter box when he does this so could this just be
how
> he usually is? I never paid attention before the blockage. He had two
> decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night.
What
> do you guys think?

If you remember, I said in a previous post that the tight junctions between
the muscle fibers in the bladder might have separated a bit if his bladder
was overdistended. So he might have a little trouble contracting his
bladder. It might take a few days for the tight junctions to reform.

Its also possible all the crystals haven't dissolved completely yet, so, I'd
keep a very close watch on his litter box behavior. If you see him strain,
or try to pee and nothing or very little comes out, don't wait to take him
back to the vet.

Best of luck,

Phil

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 06:51 AM
Rhonda wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> >
> >>I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals,
> >>I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink
> >>more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy.
> >
> >
> > Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that
> > matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to
> > drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration.
> >
> > When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a
> > person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the
> > body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water.
>
> That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have
> the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.)

Actually, Rhonda, and thank you for your previous post as well,
the homeostasis (keeping the body's fluids and electrolytes in
balance) system is extremely fine tuned. Upscale is correct
about the effect of salt, in its ability to increase body water.
One of the main methods the body controls body water is by
controlling salt balance in the blood. But the effect on a
chronically dehydrated animal or person should be to retain
both the salt and the water, so that method will not result in
a higher urine output unless the animal has normal fluid balance
to begin with (this is simplifying it, there are more variables
depending on whether the dehydration is of the high or low
salt-level type). That was why I questioned the issue of diet.
However, if the original salt levels were normal, like in
a healthy animal on a canned food diet, the extra salt will result
in a compensatory effect from the kidneys in that they will act to
rid the body of any excess salt in the end, and salt cannot be
eliminated by the kidneys without water. Hence the extra water
the cat drinks does indeed end up in the bladder
where we want it along with the salt. My only question was
regarding the wisdom of doing that for a cat which is already
potentially in a chronically dehydrated state as many cats are
who subsist on a dry diet. And of course, for evidence that
this treatment would not result in hypertension in the cat
as it most certainly does in humans who consume too
much salt. Not such an outrageous question, I thought!
8^P

--tension

Phil P.
October 17th 06, 07:01 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Not such an outrageous question, I thought!

It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it.

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 07:34 AM
wrote:
> My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything
> dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression :)
snip

Well, well, the infamous treeline! Nice to meet you. Apparently
you and I both...I suspect that you made the mistake of daring to
challenge the "one who knows". I didn't know that challenging
new information was taboo on this group, but apparently there is at
least one poster here who thinks so. Thank you, by the way, for the
reference, I will follow it up. It's nice to meet people who are not
so egotistical about giving up their sources along with their
knowledge.

> So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway,
> keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around
> this. Purina has most of their foods, all of them, above this except
> for a very, very few.
>
> It's not clear to me if the phosphorus has anything to do with
> crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the
> kidneys work more than they should have to.

Phosphorus does play an important role in the kidneys, but much more
connected to calcium balance than struvite crystals. That is not
insignificant since there is in fact a relatively recent change in the
statistics concerning urinary tract stones in cats. They used to be
predominantly struvite crystals which were soluble and relatively easy
to manage with fluid therapy, but on account of an epidemic of vets
who treated urinary tract disease, or tried to prevent it using
prescription dry food diets to acidify the urine, in an attempt to make
struvite crystals even more soluble, there has been a backlash of
cases of stones made from a much more difficult culprit...calcium
oxalate, which tends to precipitate out when the urine is more acidic.
It is not very soluble at all, and in cats can much more often
necessitate surgical removal. In humans, these stones are the ones
that generally don't pass too easily, especially when big, and end up
needing lithotrypsy...or ultrasound therapy to "shatter" the stone into
small shards which can then be passed into a sieve (perhaps you
know someone who has been through this...it is considered one of the
most painful experiences of humans, second only to childbirth).
Anyways, because of those "urinary tract disease" dry diets,
the number of cases of calcium oxalate stones has increased quite
alot, and has been assessed as high as 40% or more in some studies,
and so it should be kept in mind for those whose cats have been on
one of these diets. The presence of calcium oxalate in the urine is
highly dependent upon calcium balance which is inextricably
intertwined with the phosphorus/parathyroid hormone/magnesium/vitD
axis, so the answer to your question is, yes, it is important to pay
attention to phosphorus balance. If phosphorus intake is too high,
calcium gets wasted, sometimes even from the bones, in order to
excrete it through the kidneys, and more calcium ends up in the
urine. Sorry if that was more information than you wanted to know!
>
> Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading.
> Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding
> board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even
> if he has the temperament of an angry diva :)

Hmm, angry diva, or big fish in a small pond? I could see from the
start that he is knowledgeable, or I would not have wasted any time
on him. But I have little patience for people who let their knowledge
go to their head to the point where they become arrogant. I have not
bothered to post my own qualifications to speak about mammalian
physiology, because no one asked, although I have been accused of
starting a "****ing contest". There are those reading here who
do know, however. And they probably also know, or are starting to
figure out, that one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that
those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely,
humbly and helpfully, not to use it to support their opinion of
themselves, or to make other people feel lesser. I have heard
the claim "I am only trying to help people" more times than I care to
relate by people who really only like to feel important, impress others
with their knowledge, and put folks down who come for help but
go away feeling a bit stupid for not knowing some salient piece of
information. Whatever knowledge I have to impart comes free of
any price (including emotional), and no one has to suck up to me
to get it, either.

Once again, treeline, thanks for stepping in to say a word.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 07:58 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Not such an outrageous question, I thought!
>
> It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it.

Here is how I asked it:
Second of all, I am very curious to know what it is about
a cat's physiology that would protect him from
hypertension and renal disease from too much salt
intake?

Now I am quite curious to know what was so rude about that? Especially
considering the fact that it was a direct response to your post
inquiring whether I had any more questions! And yes, I do know what
a rhetorical question is, and I know the difference between that and
arrogant sarcasm. Fortunately, I had the courtesy to ignore your
sarcasm and keep mine to myself. You did me no such favor.

It was some time later that you finally gave me the references that
would answer my question. Thank you. Finally. Would have saved
us all a lot of pain if you had posted those right away instead of the
exceedingly rude response that you gave me. As a matter of fact,
I can't find even one post in which you have not been extremely
discourteous towards me and why? Because I had the temerity
to question your judgment? It was not such an unreasonable
question, after all. And showing surprise at your post about salt
was not particularly rude, either, I might add, unless you are a person
who is quick to take offense whenever your knowledge is questioned.
Surely when you posted information on a newsgroup, you came
prepared to be challenged by the occasional knowledgeable person
coming through who finds himself skeptical of your response. And
surely you are not really so egotistic as to think that the first thing
he is going to do is rifle through all your other posts just in case
this thread happens to be a carryover from another thread!! And
most surely of all, if others here have a high opinion of you, as
some seem to do, you would not be so insecure as to truly
believe that I am here to start a "****ing contest"? I know for
sure, that I am not that insecure, because if I were, I would have
deluged you with my qualifications at the getgo. When a person
takes the risk of offering medical advice of any type on a
newsgroup, even if it is "only" for cats, anyone, including
"Einstein" (which is *not* my name, and I would appreciate
it if you would make a note of that fact) is entitled to ask how
you are qualified to give that advice. And you should be
prepared to answer that question promptly or you are
acting irresponsibly. I know whereof I speak. Either way,
even if those *are* your unreasonable expectations, you could surely
have handled the situation with a bit more dignity and courtesy than to
treat me like a troll.

--tension

Phil P.
October 17th 06, 08:14 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > Not such an outrageous question, I thought!
> >
> > It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it.
>
> Here is how I asked it:
> Second of all, I am very curious to know what it is about
> a cat's physiology that would protect him from
> hypertension and renal disease from too much salt
> intake?

No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:

"What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
pees?"

That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.

October 17th 06, 09:30 AM
tension_on_the_wire > wrote:

> one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that
> those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely,
> humbly and helpfully, not to use it to support their opinion of
> themselves, or to make other people feel lesser. I have heard
> the claim "I am only trying to help people" more times than I care to
> relate by people who really only like to feel important, impress others
> with their knowledge, and put folks down who come for help but
> go away feeling a bit stupid for not knowing some salient piece of
> information. Whatever knowledge I have to impart comes free of
> any price (including emotional), and no one has to suck up to me
> to get it, either.

Marry me! :)

Just kidding. :) This is a dearly held belief of mine, too, but after
25+ years of working with self-important software engineering types
whose favorite response to any question is "RTFM", it's refreshing to
hear an educated, knowledgeable person say something different!

Joyce

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 07:05 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:
>
> "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
> to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
> pees?"
>
> That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
> innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.

First of all, considering the context of the post, there was nothing
at all inappropriate about me expressing surprise at your suggestion
since you did not bother to couch it in any terms which explained its
mechanism to the poster and that is highly inappropriate when one
presumes to give medical advice of any type.

Precisely what, may I ask, is so rude about my expressing surprise
and skepticism at your somewhat unusual suggestion? You set
yourself up for it in the categorical manner in which you gave the
advice in the first place. Please, point out where, in that, or in any
other post, did I use insulting, derogatory, abusive or sarcastic
language towards you.

If the only example you can come up with is the one you just quoted
above, then I'm afraid your argument is pretty lame. You didn't "like"
it when I presumed to express skepticism? Or was my tone just not
humble enough to stroke your magnificent ego?

Even if I had posted in an openly rude or abusive manner, as you
have done to me on several occasions now, you still had no call
to continue or maintain such a negative tone in such an ongoing
manner as you still continue to do. Even now, you are writing
to me as if you are in a position to dictate to me the gospel according
to Dr. Phil, and as if I have no right to question your knowledge.
By your logic, I should be ranting at the top of my voice by now on
account of the appalling attitude you continue to express toward me.
I am not. I have restrained myself despite your abusive posts.
You would do well to do the same.

The fact that you have, of your own free will, pointed out that post
of mine as something to be offended at reveals a great deal about you
and your ego. Most people, when challenged in that manner would not
have responded in such a rude and discourteous way as you did.
Your answer was sarcastic, demeaning, unnecessary and clearly intended
to intimidate me with your knowledge and jargon, even though
the content of your answer was incomplete. Had you given a more
courteous answer, along with the references you finally, in the end,
came up with, it would have ended the discussion after one post.

You did not. You gave an answer which essentially implied that
I should not presume to question you, and that you know more
about this issue than I could ever have learned. Quite a presumption
on your part, in fact, as it turns out. And when I chose to politely
ignore your sarcasm, and take your statement at your word, and
ask the questions that you falsely invited, your posts became even
more abusive and insulting. Needlessly so, I might point out,
since I am still restraining my temper regardless of your continuing
insistence in writing to me in such a condescending and patronising
manner. If anyone is trying to convolute the issue here, it is you.

Read your own posts again, carefully. Several times you have
mentioned how you "didn't like" the way I spoke to you and somehow
you seem to feel that it justifies rudeness and discourtesy.
It does not. It reveals you for what you are...someone who thinks
so highly of himself and his knowledge that he has the right to judge
and condemn any poster who has the audacity to question his statements.

You didn't "like" the way I posed my question? You would have been
happier if I had posted with supplication perhaps to your august sum
of knowledge....please sir, tell me more? Shall I sit at your feet,
Master? Get over yourself. There are others here with knowlege too,
and if they choose to question yours, it would behoove you to answer
their questions appropriately, and without all the attitude.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 07:08 PM
wrote:
> tension_on_the_wire > wrote:
>
> > one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that
> > those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely,
> > humbly and helpfully, not to use it to support their opinion of
> > themselves, or to make other people feel lesser. I have heard
> > the claim "I am only trying to help people" more times than I care to
> > relate by people who really only like to feel important, impress others
> > with their knowledge, and put folks down who come for help but
> > go away feeling a bit stupid for not knowing some salient piece of
> > information. Whatever knowledge I have to impart comes free of
> > any price (including emotional), and no one has to suck up to me
> > to get it, either.
>
> Marry me! :)
>
> Just kidding. :) This is a dearly held belief of mine, too, but after
> 25+ years of working with self-important software engineering types
> whose favorite response to any question is "RTFM", it's refreshing to
> hear an educated, knowledgeable person say something different!

Thank you, Joyce.

--tension

Phil P.
October 17th 06, 07:33 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:
> >
> > "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
> > to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
> > pees?"
> >
> > That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
> > innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.
>
> First of all,

Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who
got your feelings hurt. Get over it.

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 07:53 PM
MoMo via CatKB.com wrote:
> tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to
> say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my
> kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by
> my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking
> about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt
> to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I
> really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well)
> but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank
> you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than
> you know.

Thank you for your well-meaning post, MoMo. I do understand that
some people have gotten quite a bit of advice from this poster. I
have no objection to that at all, as long as it is coming from
someone who has the knowledge, and takes the responsibility
seriously enough. I don't question his knowledge base, per se.
But, giving medical advice over a newsgroup is a delicate thing,
and fraught with peril when one cannot actually examine a patient.
I don't insist that advice must be given by someone "qualified"
in the traditional sense, but it must be done very carefully and
with a lot of explanation and meticulous attention to any qualifying
conditions.

To retort to me, as he did, when I dared to ask whether he was a DVM,
which was, after all, not an unreasonable question considering the
nature of the advice and the utter confidence with which he gives it:

"Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you
to determine whose "qualified"."

implies that he thinks there is no need to explain the certainty of
his knowledge when posting medical advice.. That is certainly
a lower standard than there would be in a clinic, and it implies
that he feels one does not need to be qualified in order to give
medical advice on a newsgroup. Does that reassure you?
Not me, for sure. When someone asks me what qualifications
I have for giving medical advice, I tell them straight away,
no ego involved. Ego and medicine do not mix....as I'm sure
we have all found out in one setting or another.

You are right about salt getting cats to drink more, of course,
and I don't dispute that...that's why they serve pretzels in
bars and pubs. But there are some qualifying conditions
necessary to make it result in more peeing, including a very
careful assessment of the pre-existing fluid status of the cat
when you add the salt. A cat in a state of chronic dehydration,
which is often the case in cats which have suffered from blockage,
especially on dry food, will not necessarily pee out the extra
water. Dehydration overrides all mechanisms for peeing out
salt or water. And adding salt to a cat which has "hypernatremic"
dehydration (high blood salt level) can result in serious damage.
And Phil should have carefully explained that to you when
suggesting the salt. He should have asked you for the
electrolytes labs on your cat. And he had no call to jump down
my throat when I questioned his post. That is my main objection.
Someone capable of being measurably helpful in this newsgroup,
in a medical way, should conduct himself with a little more care
and thought to what he is leaving unsaid. And it doesn't matter
how many times he might have said it in previous posts or
to other posters. It must be said again, and anew to any poster
who asks the question again. Medical advice cannot be relegated to
an FAQ, or an assumption that people have read the entire
history of that NG and should be expected to understand
tacitly what he *means*. Not when the health of a living being
is involved. *Your* own precious cat, as it turns out, in this case.

He should continue to share his knowledge if he is doing it
in good faith, but he should take greater care to explain, and
part of the reason I am persisting in this "debate" with
him is to emphasize to the readers here that they should
question him carefully if he doesn't explain. He has knowledge,
but no one is infallible and you do not want to find that out
the hard way, so ask for explanations.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 17th 06, 08:01 PM
Matthew wrote:
> Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition
> with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL

Yes, I have noticed that MaryL is quite knowledgeable. But you'll
notice a world of difference in the style in which she gives advice.
She explains herself very clearly and does not take offense at
questions.

I am glad that he has been able to help you Matthew. I hope,
as you will see, from reading my other posts here, that his
helpfulness will continue, but improve by being more thoughtful
about how he posts his advice.

I have taken the trouble to check out his website and it is
no doubt an excellent website. At first I could hardly believe
it was made by the same person. If he continues that style
here in the NG, of meticulously explaining mechanisms,
he will continue to be a valuable asset to the group.

Just don't be hesitant to question sources, or ask for
references if something doesn't sound intuitively
obvious. Perhaps this is nothing more than a personal
crusade of mine to empower patients....but I believe
it is crucial, and especially here on the newsgroup.

--tension

Matthew
October 17th 06, 08:06 PM
You just have to remember words can be interpreted so many ways with out
the emotions behind them.

To be honest I thought you were being a little of a smart [email protected]@ in the post

Not defending anyone in particular just in general. step back and look at
it from another angle say it out loud see how it sounds. It is so easy to
misinterpret anything written look at religion ( NO DON'T GO THERE it was
an example)

And in Phil's defense we have so many [email protected]@holes and trolls that come here
it is hard to make out friend or foe sometimes.

Both me and you are in the other cat groups you see the idiocy that goes on
there. Same here so more intelligence in this group



"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Matthew wrote:
>> Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my
>> transition
>> with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL
>
> Yes, I have noticed that MaryL is quite knowledgeable. But you'll
> notice a world of difference in the style in which she gives advice.
> She explains herself very clearly and does not take offense at
> questions.
>
> I am glad that he has been able to help you Matthew. I hope,
> as you will see, from reading my other posts here, that his
> helpfulness will continue, but improve by being more thoughtful
> about how he posts his advice.
>
> I have taken the trouble to check out his website and it is
> no doubt an excellent website. At first I could hardly believe
> it was made by the same person. If he continues that style
> here in the NG, of meticulously explaining mechanisms,
> he will continue to be a valuable asset to the group.
>
> Just don't be hesitant to question sources, or ask for
> references if something doesn't sound intuitively
> obvious. Perhaps this is nothing more than a personal
> crusade of mine to empower patients....but I believe
> it is crucial, and especially here on the newsgroup.
>
> --tension
>

Christina Websell
October 17th 06, 08:24 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Phil P. wrote:
>> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:
>> >
>> > "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
>> > to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
>> > pees?"
>> >
>> > That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
>> > innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.
>>
>> First of all,
>
> Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who
> got your feelings hurt. Get over it.
>
>
And you are acting like a rescuer who has read books and sets yourself up as
a expert against someone who really knows what they are talking about and
you don't like it.
I don't admire your stance. You've been rude and provocative whereas
tension has been very reasonable in response. Especially as she has a lot
over on you as regards medical qualifications!
Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have.

Tweed

cybercat
October 17th 06, 08:41 PM
"Christina Websell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Phil P. wrote:
>>> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:
>>> >
>>> > "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
>>> > to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
>>> > pees?"
>>> >
>>> > That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
>>> > innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.
>>>
>>> First of all,
>>
>> Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who
>> got your feelings hurt. Get over it.
>>
>>
> And you are acting like a rescuer who has read books and sets yourself up
> as a expert against someone who really knows what they are talking about
> and you don't like it.
> I don't admire your stance. You've been rude and provocative whereas
> tension has been very reasonable in response. Especially as she has a lot
> over on you as regards medical qualifications!
> Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have.
>

This is the first thing in months you have to offer to h+b?

Pretty sad.

Phil at least offers useful information.

-L.
October 17th 06, 10:00 PM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
> arrogant and condescending of you.

Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he
can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a
dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally.

-L.

Rhonda
October 17th 06, 10:35 PM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>
> You didn't "like"
> it when I presumed to express skepticism? Or was my tone just not
> humble enough to stroke your magnificent ego?

OMG,

I would wear a "Team Tension" t-shirt any day!

Rhonda

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 01:44 AM
"Christina Websell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Phil P. wrote:
> >> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was:
> >> >
> >> > "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt
> >> > to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his
> >> > pees?"
> >> >
> >> > That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little
> >> > innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question.
> >>
> >> First of all,
> >
> > Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat
who
> > got your feelings hurt. Get over it.
> >
> >

When the house is on fire the rats crawl out of the woodwork. Look what just
crawled out-


> And you are acting like a rescuer who has read books

Has read? I still do. If I didn't I'd be as ignorant as you. You were never
exactly a fountain of knowledge or experience or help-- or anything for that
matter.

and sets yourself up as
> a expert

Naa- I don't set myself as an expert- I only seem like an expert to you- but
then again, most people here would seem like experts to you-- its a
relativity thing.

against someone who really knows what they are talking about and
> you don't like it.

The only thing I didn't like was the way he asked the question. Anything
else you perceive is a delusion.


> I don't admire your stance.

Don't flatter yourself- I don't want or need your admiration.


>You've been rude and provocative


Thanks for noticing- I thought so too. That was my intention.


whereas
> tension has been very reasonable in response. Especially as she has a lot
> over on you as regards medical qualifications!

Well now, that's sure a surprise- especially since I've made it abundantly
clear- for years- that I never had a formal medical education-- just a lot
of research and a whole lot of experience.

I don't particularly care who he is or what is "qualifications" are.


> Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have.

Neither do you- nor do most people in this newsgroup- Have you had any other
epiphanies?

>
> Tweed

Don't you mean Twit? You can crawl back into the woodwork now for another
few months- I don't think you'll be missed - you never contribute anything
useful anyway.

tension_on_the_wire
October 18th 06, 04:11 AM
-L. wrote:
> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
> > arrogant and condescending of you.
>
> Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he
> can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a
> dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally.
>
> -L.

Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.
I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate
just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't
directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own
inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here,
why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct,
coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego? I know
what just about any reasonable person would say if they had
to listen to that type of abuse from a human physician.
There would be no end to the rage and fury at his intolerable
insults....and he seems to think that this is appropriate public
behaviour...can you imagine being a member of his family?
Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
the wrong side of him by not doing what the holy textbook
says it would do? I shudder to think! And I do
know that a human physician who gave advice in the high-handed
and condescending manner that he does would not only
alienate the people he claims he is trying to help, but by association,
would naturally create a certain amount of distrust in his
knowledge. I know that I, for one, will make a point of
double-checking anything that comes from him with an
alternate source and I certainly recommend everyone else
to do the same.

By the way....is he the *only* "expert" posting here?
Perhaps he has got a bit too comfortable on his little
throne. There was a DVM who posted in another
group recently offering advice and help...perhaps it
would be good to search him out and bring him
here. A second or third opinion would not be a bad
idea, and should certainly do no harm if Dr. Phil
is in earnest about trying to help people.

--tension

cybercat
October 18th 06, 04:25 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.
> I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate
> just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't
> directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own
> inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here,
> why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct,
> coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego?

Phil saved my cat's life.

tension_on_the_wire
October 18th 06, 04:30 AM
Matthew wrote:
> You just have to remember words can be interpreted so many ways with out
> the emotions behind them.
>
> To be honest I thought you were being a little of a smart [email protected]@ in the post

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, Matthew, but
at least you don't say it in a rude or insulting way. The thing
about that post is if you look at it from the point of view of
posterity, which you must always do before clicking "post"
because it is going to be there for eternity or at least our
own lifetime, you will realize that someone five months from
now who is searching the archives on ideas about preventing
reblocking is going to see this isolated, categorical
recommendation which is not acceptable as it stands.

My post, as startling or [email protected] as it may appear
to you now, knowing both "Dr. Phil" and myself as you do....
needs to be there as a red flag to anyone who reads it
in the future without the benefit of seeing any other
connected posts to Momo's cat.

That future point of view is the one that concerns
me most when posting to a newsgroup. It isn't just
public e-mail....it is archived material which is available
as a resource to others, and one should always keep
that in mind when reading or posting any thread.

"Dr. Phil" has created a nice little legacy of "Rush Limbaugh"-type
posts which I would never, were I the culprit, want preserved
for my grandkids to see. I would be mortally ashamed if any
of my family saw posts in my name such as what he has
posted just here today alone. No humility at all, just abuse.
I would die of mortification if I were looking up my grandfather's
posts on the newsgroup and this was what I found!
I would never want to reveal to the world the pathetic need
for ego-stroking that he has done, or the transparent insecurity
that pounces on any kind of dissent with useless and
uninformative attacks.

I never put anything on a newsgroup that cannot stand alone
as a post without reference to other threads, or that
would be an embarassment to my ability to conduct
myself as a decent human being. He posts as if
he is talking in a bar...but the words are preserved.
And anyone who is in need of help, and comes across
this individual, and wants to check his previous posts
as some kind of evidence of what kind of individual
they are dealing with is going to come across this
drivel, and fortunately also they are now going to
see my posts too. Then they can decide if this is
the type of individual they want to take advice from
regarding their cats. Some people cannot take
the time to investigate the authenticity of his
information, and all they have to go on is his
bewitching personality.

--tension

cybercat
October 18th 06, 04:41 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote :
>
> "Dr. Phil" has created a nice little legacy of "Rush Limbaugh"-type
> posts which I would never, were I the culprit, want preserved
> for my grandkids to see.

My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet.

In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil
knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time.
You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all. My cats are
not better off because of you but they sure are due to Phil's time and
efforts.

So he's rude at times. He saved my cat from thyroid surgery that might
have been the worst thing I could have done for her, and has held many
other hands through much worse problems while providing information
that has on repeated occasions been instructive to vets.

When is the last time you did anything half that helpful for anyone?






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Matthew
October 18th 06, 05:09 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> -L. wrote:
>> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>> > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
>> > arrogant and condescending of you.
>>
>> Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he
>> can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a
>> dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally.
>>
>> -L.
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.
> I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate
> just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't
> directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own
> inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here,
> why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct,
> coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego? I know
> what just about any reasonable person would say if they had
> to listen to that type of abuse from a human physician.
> There would be no end to the rage and fury at his intolerable
> insults....and he seems to think that this is appropriate public
> behaviour...can you imagine being a member of his family?
> Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
> the wrong side of him by not doing what the holy textbook
> says it would do? I shudder to think! And I do
> know that a human physician who gave advice in the high-handed
> and condescending manner that he does would not only
> alienate the people he claims he is trying to help, but by association,
> would naturally create a certain amount of distrust in his
> knowledge. I know that I, for one, will make a point of
> double-checking anything that comes from him with an
> alternate source and I certainly recommend everyone else
> to do the same.
>
> By the way....is he the *only* "expert" posting here?
> Perhaps he has got a bit too comfortable on his little
> throne. There was a DVM who posted in another
> group recently offering advice and help...perhaps it
> would be good to search him out and bring him
> here. A second or third opinion would not be a bad
> idea, and should certainly do no harm if Dr. Phil
> is in earnest about trying to help people.
>
> --tension


Tension I will say this again He personally took time to make sure My
Rumble was ok when he was on diazepam for epilepsy. He took the time off
the newsgroup to personally contact me to help me out. He and MaryL both
sought me out to make sure Rumble was ok when he got diagnosed as a
diabetic. Phil might catch an attitude with people to say when stuff like
what happens. But he is the most knowledge non vet I have ever had the
privilege to associate with.


Sometimes I takes a bigger person to walk away or to realize maybe just let
it go this is the usernet. I don't know how old your are tension but
sometimes letting things get to you just cause yourself more problems. Why
do you think I laugh at the idiots in the other groups and won't play into
their games

I owe Phil a lot and I will take his advice anytime he gives it. And Phil
thank you again for everything Rumble and Spirit are doing great. Rumble
goes into for his check up soon to check his blood sugar. Spirit is acting
like his old self still no reason for his fever but it is gone that is all
I care about that I have them both

Rhonda
October 18th 06, 05:27 AM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> -L. wrote:
>
>>tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>>
>>>But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
>>>arrogant and condescending of you.
>>
>>Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he
>>can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a
>>dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally.
>>
>>-L.
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.
> I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate
> just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't
> directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own
> inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here,
> why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct,
> coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego?
> (snip)

Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat
group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an
incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on
their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the
newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or
2-Gun, or something like that. What tough characters they were in those
days (grin).

I don't know if I was more dumb-founded because many people on the
newsgroup actually believed this whole crazy thing, or if I was having
too good of a time being entertained by the absurdity.

As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello."

Rhonda

tension_on_the_wire
October 18th 06, 06:47 AM
cybercat wrote:
> My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet.

It's not myself that I take seriously, it is the onus to act
responsibly that I take seriously. It isn't "just" Usenet
when people are taking medical decisions from it. Make
one mistake on account of advice from Usenet, and you
will understand what I mean.
>
> In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil
> knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time.
> You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all.

Yes but I do not present myself as coming here for the
purpose of helping anyone with their cats, nor do I claim
to be making that sort of contribution...and what does that have
to do with the price of eggs, anyway? It is not even the issue at hand
here.. It is just Usenet, after all, didn't someone just say that?
I am not pitting myself against him in any type of competition.
All I did was question his judgment and I don't see any rules
that say this is not permitted on Usenet. His response was
reprehensible and continues to be so. So I will call it as I see
it, and I will not be insulted out of the thread by his baseless
attacks and accusations. How much he has helped you and
others is commendable but completely irrelevant to that issue.

> When is the last time you did anything half that helpful for anyone?

Since you ask, I have spent a long and fruitful career
preventing people and their children from dying in
trauma ICU's, ER's, OR's, delivery rooms, NICU's
and other critical care areas of hospitals in three
different countries, for a start. And never, once,
did I condescend or patronize even one of them,
or their parents, no matter how rude or inappropriate
their behaviour might have become (one can forgive
alot when families are under *that* type of stress).

And for the record, I have been informed by police
and fire departments that I am one of the very
few physicians in whatever geographical area to
bother to stop and render medical assistance
at the scenes of accidents and other medical
emergencies that take place on the street.
There is more than one person walking
around this planet right now because I was
at hand when the need arose.

If your question pertains to helpfulness on the newsgroups,
I invite you to read my posting history and you will see
just exactly how many people have considered my
posts helpful to them, (and without being demeaning
or humiliating in any way) in the last two or three
months alone. I do know what I am talking about
when it comes to giving responsible advice of a
medical nature over the newsgroups.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 18th 06, 07:06 AM
Matthew wrote:
> Sometimes I takes a bigger person to walk away or to realize maybe just let
> it go this is the usernet. I don't know how old your are tension but
> sometimes letting things get to you just cause yourself more problems. Why
> do you think I laugh at the idiots in the other groups and won't play into
> their games

Well, Matthew, I will admit I'm no spring chicken, but if he claims
to have fought in Vietnam, then I'm not as old as he is.

In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
as any further response to his ongoing insults. The only people
I am responding to now, on this thread, is the other posters like
yourself, who are people that I *do* value as newfound friends.

Just as in that other thread we were looking at...I find that
a disagreement with someone which is unresolvable doesn't
mean that the entire thread needs to be dropped if there
are other people worth responding to in that thread, like
yourself. When I persist, it's because of the other readers,
and the lurkers who are reading this stuff. If I have the
time, who does it hurt or cause problems for? As you can
see, I am not the one who is getting all upset and enraged
by anything...it's he who is all bent out of shape and posts
accordingly.

So maybe I'm not being objective here, but I don't think it is
really me who can't let things go....the issue is a dead one
for me already, he has demonstrated to me that his
personality isn't worth the time. He is the one who
continues to post insults, whereas I still have yet to
be provoked into his level of behaviour, as far as I can
see. From what I can tell, I think I've made my point.

And again, Matthew, I am very glad, and grateful too,
that he was able to help you, and MoMo and cybercat
and everyone else including Ana the cat that just had
bowel surgery, and all the other very distressing
problems I have seen posted in this group. I've
said that several times already. I just don't feel
that justifies rude behaviour. No one would ever
tolerate it in a doctor, you know!

--tension

meeee
October 18th 06, 07:21 AM
Oh, dear, you've attracted cybercat's attention by daring to
disagree....you're in trouble now....it might call you 'stupid' if you're
not careful....

"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> cybercat wrote:
>> My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet.
>
> It's not myself that I take seriously, it is the onus to act
> responsibly that I take seriously. It isn't "just" Usenet
> when people are taking medical decisions from it. Make
> one mistake on account of advice from Usenet, and you
> will understand what I mean.
>>
>> In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil
>> knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time.
>> You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all.
>
> Yes but I do not present myself as coming here for the
> purpose of helping anyone with their cats, nor do I claim
> to be making that sort of contribution...and what does that have
> to do with the price of eggs, anyway? It is not even the issue at hand
> here.. It is just Usenet, after all, didn't someone just say that?
> I am not pitting myself against him in any type of competition.
> All I did was question his judgment and I don't see any rules
> that say this is not permitted on Usenet. His response was
> reprehensible and continues to be so. So I will call it as I see
> it, and I will not be insulted out of the thread by his baseless
> attacks and accusations. How much he has helped you and
> others is commendable but completely irrelevant to that issue.
>
>> When is the last time you did anything half that helpful for anyone?
>
> Since you ask, I have spent a long and fruitful career
> preventing people and their children from dying in
> trauma ICU's, ER's, OR's, delivery rooms, NICU's
> and other critical care areas of hospitals in three
> different countries, for a start. And never, once,
> did I condescend or patronize even one of them,
> or their parents, no matter how rude or inappropriate
> their behaviour might have become (one can forgive
> alot when families are under *that* type of stress).
>
> And for the record, I have been informed by police
> and fire departments that I am one of the very
> few physicians in whatever geographical area to
> bother to stop and render medical assistance
> at the scenes of accidents and other medical
> emergencies that take place on the street.
> There is more than one person walking
> around this planet right now because I was
> at hand when the need arose.
>
> If your question pertains to helpfulness on the newsgroups,
> I invite you to read my posting history and you will see
> just exactly how many people have considered my
> posts helpful to them, (and without being demeaning
> or humiliating in any way) in the last two or three
> months alone. I do know what I am talking about
> when it comes to giving responsible advice of a
> medical nature over the newsgroups.
>
> --tension
>

tension_on_the_wire
October 18th 06, 07:34 AM
Rhonda wrote:
> Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
> should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
> buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat
> group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an
> incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on
> their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the
> newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or
> 2-Gun, or something like that. What tough characters they were in those
> days (grin).
>
> I don't know if I was more dumb-founded because many people on the
> newsgroup actually believed this whole crazy thing, or if I was having
> too good of a time being entertained by the absurdity.
>
> As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello."
>
> Rhonda

That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean.
Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this
individual in the future. Though I will certainly
continue to watch his activity, for sure.
Thanks for the info.

--tension

-L.
October 18th 06, 07:45 AM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.
> I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate
> just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't
> directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own
> inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here,
> why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct,
> coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego?

Well, the guy has a lot of good knowledge about cats. A lot. I have
learned a lot from him. He also does a lot of rescue which I admire
tremendously.


> I know
> what just about any reasonable person would say if they had
> to listen to that type of abuse from a human physician.
> There would be no end to the rage and fury at his intolerable
> insults....and he seems to think that this is appropriate public
> behaviour...can you imagine being a member of his family?

Well Usenet behavior isn't necessarily indicative of behavior
elsewhere. I'm an asshole everywhere, but I suspect I'm in the
minority. ;)


> Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
> the wrong side of him by not doing what the holy textbook
> says it would do? I shudder to think!

Phil would never, ever hurt a cat - NEVER. Wouldn't happen.

> And I do
> know that a human physician who gave advice in the high-handed
> and condescending manner that he does would not only
> alienate the people he claims he is trying to help, but by association,
> would naturally create a certain amount of distrust in his
> knowledge.

There's a reason Phil doesn't have an advanced degree. ;) I suspect
he, himself would admit he doesn't have the patience required to deal
with humans on the professional level.


>I know that I, for one, will make a point of
> double-checking anything that comes from him with an
> alternate source and I certainly recommend everyone else
> to do the same.

Well, I would double-check everything, because anyone can be wrong and
can make a mistake or have a brain fart. That sort of goes with taking
on-line advice of any sort.

>
> By the way....is he the *only* "expert" posting here?

What do you mean by "expert"? I guess I don't consider anyone here an
"expert". I consider Phil to be very knowledgeable about many things,
as are many other people. There is no one here who posts who is a
veterinarian, if that is what you are asking.


> Perhaps he has got a bit too comfortable on his little
> throne. There was a DVM who posted in another
> group recently offering advice and help...perhaps it
> would be good to search him out and bring him
> here.

Vets, in general, do not give advice on the 'net. Too much liability.
Hillary Israeli is a vet whom used to post on the vet med group, but I
think she is busy with her family these days.

>A second or third opinion would not be a bad
> idea, and should certainly do no harm if Dr. Phil
> is in earnest about trying to help people.

Well, I agree to some extent. I would check most things with my vet,
but honestly, vets are fallible and often times do not have the
experience that others *do* have. One example that comes to mind is
the use of Advantage on very young kittens (as young as 4 days old).
This is a treatment I used as a vet tech in a high-volume cat clinic.
I learned it from folks who did feral rescue. It is a completely safe,
off-label use of the product, but is not a treatment most vets will
advocate because it is an off-label use. There are all sort of "tricks
of the trade" one can learn from people who are not professionals but
whom work with animals. That is one reason I participate in these
groups.

Everyone has *something* to offer, even if it is a kind word or a
finger-wag. No one person is the fount of all knowledge. It
(r.p.c.h+b) is a dynamic, ever-changing group. You have to figure out
for yourself who is worth noting and who has value for other reasons -
or not. It's every person's own judgement to make.

-L.

-L.
October 18th 06, 10:12 AM
Rhonda wrote:
>
> Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
> should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
> buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat
> group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an
> incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on
> their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the
> newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or
> 2-Gun, or something like that.

Phoenix Rising. Phil xna-ed all of his posts from that time, but there
is one where he supposedly "discovered" PR (quoted text):

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.animals.felines/msg/55efc502a1e2da45?dmode=source

> What tough characters they were in those
> days (grin).
>
> I don't know if I was more dumb-founded because many people on the
> newsgroup actually believed this whole crazy thing, or if I was having
> too good of a time being entertained by the absurdity.
>
> As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello."

I think he was just off his meds.

-L.

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 02:22 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
> as any further response to his ongoing insults.

No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do realize
you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more ****ed up than you
think I am!

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 02:24 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...

> behaviour...can you imagine being a member of his family?

Imagine being a member of *your* family! Holy ****! You must drive your
family up the wall with your incessant whining and complaining.


> Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
> the wrong side of him


My cats can't get on the wrong side of me, asshole.


>
> By the way....is he the *only* "expert" posting here?
> Perhaps he has got a bit too comfortable on his little
> throne. There was a DVM who posted in another
> group recently offering advice and help...perhaps it
> would be good to search him out and bring him
> here. A second or third opinion would not be a bad
> idea, and should certainly do no harm if Dr. Phil
> is in earnest about trying to help people.

Wow! I must have shattered you fragile ego pretty badly! lol!

I'm getting a real kick out watching you whine like a child that just got
scolded!

cybercat
October 18th 06, 02:25 PM
"Matthew" > wrote
>
>
> Tension I will say this again He personally took time to make sure My
> Rumble was ok when he was on diazepam for epilepsy. He took the time off
> the newsgroup to personally contact me to help me out.

None of that matters, Matthew. It's not about the CATS for Christ's sake.
It's about Rhonda does not LIKE Phil. It's about Phil can be surly when
he's annoyed. That is what really MATTERS.

Get with the program, man.

cybercat
October 18th 06, 02:26 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> -L. wrote:
>> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>> > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat
>> > arrogant and condescending of you.
>>
>> Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he
>> can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a
>> dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally.
>>
>> -L.
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.

I enjoy reading about cats.

Your whining is not nearly as interesting.

And you know what that means ....

(I am not allowed to say it! I cannot announce it, I have
busted too many people for that! lmao!!)

Buh byeeeee!

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 02:34 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> cybercat wrote:
> > My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet.
>
> >
> > In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil
> > knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time.
> > You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all.
>
> Yes but I do not present myself as coming here for the
> purpose of helping anyone with their cats,

IOW, you're just here to whine and complain!

If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something--
you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more comfortable
in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to fragile
for this group.

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 02:38 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> -L. wrote:

Don't take it personally.
> >
> > -L.
>
> Thanks -L., fortunately I don't,


You sure as hell do! You've been whining *incessantly* about your bruised
feelings for two days! You're O.C.D.ing over it. Do you realize that? (that
was another rhetorical question)


which is why it is relatively easy
> to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant.

I think I'd prefer insufferably arrogant to an insufferable whiner like you.

cybercat
October 18th 06, 02:45 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
>> as any further response to his ongoing insults.
>
> No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do
> realize
> you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more ****ed up than you
> think I am!
>
>

Gotta love those 30-line posts that are nothing but "booo boooo."

Ugh.

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 03:09 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...

> Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
> should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
> buddy,

Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting the
meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right malicious.

Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories? Seems
like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
people post here about.

One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of those
too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you look
like you have experience.

cybercat
October 18th 06, 03:13 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
>> should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
>> buddy,
>
> Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
> always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting the
> meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right malicious.
>

I have to agree.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Rhonda
October 18th 06, 04:24 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
>>should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
>>buddy,
>
> Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
> always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting the
> meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right malicious.

Phil, I asked you once to explain what happened and you would not. I do
not know about a third party or a "meeting." So here's your chance once
again -- what was that show all about?

> Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories? Seems
> like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
> people post here about.

Are you jealous of our cat's medical problems, Phil?

Why do you never talk about your cats or their problems? Maybe because
the way you word your posts is "You need to do this" or "You need to do
that" or "You vet is wrong, you should do this instead." You rarely tie
it to yourself or to real life. I could change my approach too, but I
prefer personal experience.

> One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of those
> too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you look
> like you have experience.

Sorry, haven't had a dog in years and years. If I get one, I'll let you
know.

Rhonda

Rhonda
October 18th 06, 04:26 PM
-L-, Phoenix Rising, that was it! Wasn't one of their nicknames to each
other 2-Gun or something like that?

I just saw your post and I have to run, so will read it tonight.

Thanks,
Rhonda

-L. wrote:
> Rhonda wrote:
>
>>Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
>>should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
>>buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat
>>group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an
>>incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on
>>their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the
>>newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or
>>2-Gun, or something like that.
>
>
> Phoenix Rising. Phil xna-ed all of his posts from that time, but there
> is one where he supposedly "discovered" PR (quoted text):
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.animals.felines/msg/55efc502a1e2da45?dmode=source
>
>
>>What tough characters they were in those
>>days (grin).
>>
>>I don't know if I was more dumb-founded because many people on the
>>newsgroup actually believed this whole crazy thing, or if I was having
>>too good of a time being entertained by the absurdity.
>>
>>As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello."
>
>
> I think he was just off his meds.
>
> -L.
>

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 04:36 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ups.com...

I am one of the very
> few physicians

Holy ****! You're a medical doctor???? I'd bet you have to give your
patients sedatives to get them it through a consultation! I wonder how many
patients you bored to death with your incessant whining?

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 05:01 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
> > always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting
the
> > meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right
malicious.
>
> Phil, I asked you once to explain what happened and you would not. I do
> not know about a third party or a "meeting." So here's your chance once
> again -- what was that show all about?


I told you at least a dozen times- a third party set the meeting up. Why
are you so obsessed with a 7 year-old thread that you weren't even a part of
or even a participant in the newsgroup? I think you have some serious
issues of your own that need attention.

>
> > Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories? Seems
> > like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
> > people post here about.
>
> Are you jealous of our cat's medical problems, Phil?


Not at all- I just think you make up most the stories about your cats'
problems so you look like you have experience treating them. Either that or
you have extremely bad luck with pets or you just don't take very good care
of them. Actually, I believe the former.


>
> Why do you never talk about your cats or their problems?

I have. You just choose to ignore those posts because you're a malicious
asshole. Fortunately, my cats don't have many problems.


>
> > One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of
those
> > too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you
look
> > like you have experience.
>
> Sorry, haven't had a dog in years and years.

That doesn't matter- You could conjure up a "my dog too" story just the
same.

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 05:01 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> -L-, Phoenix Rising, that was it! Wasn't one of their nicknames to each
> other 2-Gun or something like that?
>
> I just saw your post and I have to run, so will read it tonight.

Need time to conjure up some more bull****? Take your time.

Matthew
October 18th 06, 05:04 PM
He talks about his cats . I have had many of conversations with Phil about
his cats and his feral's colonies he takes care of. I even asked about his
feral colonies in this thread.


"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Phil P. wrote:
>> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> > Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
>> > always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting
> the
>> > meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right
> malicious.
>>
>> Phil, I asked you once to explain what happened and you would not. I do
>> not know about a third party or a "meeting." So here's your chance once
>> again -- what was that show all about?
>
>
> I told you at least a dozen times- a third party set the meeting up. Why
> are you so obsessed with a 7 year-old thread that you weren't even a part
> of
> or even a participant in the newsgroup? I think you have some serious
> issues of your own that need attention.
>
>>
>> > Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories?
>> > Seems
>> > like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
>> > people post here about.
>>
>> Are you jealous of our cat's medical problems, Phil?
>
>
> Not at all- I just think you make up most the stories about your cats'
> problems so you look like you have experience treating them. Either that
> or
> you have extremely bad luck with pets or you just don't take very good
> care
> of them. Actually, I believe the former.
>
>
>>
>> Why do you never talk about your cats or their problems?
>
> I have. You just choose to ignore those posts because you're a malicious
> asshole. Fortunately, my cats don't have many problems.
>
>
>>
>> > One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of
> those
>> > too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you
> look
>> > like you have experience.
>>
>> Sorry, haven't had a dog in years and years.
>
> That doesn't matter- You could conjure up a "my dog too" story just the
> same.
>
>

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 06:11 PM
"Matthew" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> He talks about his cats . I have had many of conversations with Phil
about
> his cats and his feral's colonies he takes care of. I even asked about
his
> feral colonies in this thread.
>

Don't waste your time, Mat- She knows dam well I talk about my cats. She's
just a malicious asshole that doesn't like me. I've never known anyone
whose pets have nearly as many problems as hers- and I work primarily with
animals with special needs! She's got a "my cat too" bull**** story for
every occasion.

Annie Wxill
October 18th 06, 06:43 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
....> That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean.
> Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this
> individual in the future. Though I will certainly
> continue to watch his activity, for sure.
> Thanks for the info.
> --tension
>
(cross posted addresses snipped)

Tension,

I also remember when Phil and his Vietnam buddy appeared and engaged in a
series of war stories. Once I saw the direction, I marked the threads to be
ignored. I believe I killfiled the buddy and almost killfiled Phil.

But, Phil started posting helpful and on-topic information and made
available an immense source of information on his Web site. I especially
remember his participation in the rescue of a cat from a shelter that would
rather put the cat down then allow a participant from the group adopt it and
take it to a vet for treatment.

I remember when Phil volunteered to drive quite a distance to get another
cat to the care it needed when the owner had given up on it.

At one time, we had someone drop into the group to describe what appeared to
be a serious eye infection and ask what to do, then proceeded to make up one
excuse after another about why he could (would) not take the cat to a vet.

Someone offered to pay the vet bill if the poster would pay it back by
making something like $10 a month donations to a rescue organization. Phil
chimed in to offer vouchers to be applied to the vet bill. The poster chose
to treat his own cat and dropped out of the group.

Phil, by-the-way, was civil to this person.

While I believe that Phil's abrasive demeanor and personal insults to people
is usually counterproductive, I respect his passion for cats and his
willingness to share the information he has accumulated through experience
and research.

He tends to be sanctimonious and impatient with people who are just asking a
question or challenging his information or his attitude. Sometimes people
will bait him, and he invariably bites. When he gets in flame wars, I
ignore the rest of the thread, which may cause me to miss something
meaningful, but I don't have the time or inclination to follow these
conversations.

But. I know that Phil will always put the welfare of the cats first. I
respect his opinion and have learned a lot from him and from others, who may
or may not agree with him, in this group.

Annie

cybercat
October 18th 06, 07:27 PM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
> ...> That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean.
>> Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this
>> individual in the future. Though I will certainly
>> continue to watch his activity, for sure.
>> Thanks for the info.
>> --tension
>>
> (cross posted addresses snipped)
>
> Tension,
>
> I also remember when Phil and his Vietnam buddy appeared and engaged in a
> series of war stories. Once I saw the direction, I marked the threads to
> be ignored. I believe I killfiled the buddy and almost killfiled Phil.
>
> But, Phil started posting helpful and on-topic information and made
> available an immense source of information on his Web site. I especially
> remember his participation in the rescue of a cat from a shelter that
> would rather put the cat down then allow a participant from the group
> adopt it and take it to a vet for treatment.
>
> I remember when Phil volunteered to drive quite a distance to get another
> cat to the care it needed when the owner had given up on it.
>
> At one time, we had someone drop into the group to describe what appeared
> to be a serious eye infection and ask what to do, then proceeded to make
> up one excuse after another about why he could (would) not take the cat
> to a vet.
>
> Someone offered to pay the vet bill if the poster would pay it back by
> making something like $10 a month donations to a rescue organization.
> Phil chimed in to offer vouchers to be applied to the vet bill. The
> poster chose to treat his own cat and dropped out of the group.
>
> Phil, by-the-way, was civil to this person.
>
> While I believe that Phil's abrasive demeanor and personal insults to
> people is usually counterproductive, I respect his passion for cats and
> his willingness to share the information he has accumulated through
> experience and research.
>
> He tends to be sanctimonious and impatient with people who are just asking
> a question or challenging his information or his attitude. Sometimes
> people will bait him, and he invariably bites. When he gets in flame
> wars, I ignore the rest of the thread, which may cause me to miss
> something meaningful, but I don't have the time or inclination to follow
> these conversations.
>
> But. I know that Phil will always put the welfare of the cats first. I
> respect his opinion and have learned a lot from him and from others, who
> may or may not agree with him, in this group.
>


Well, then. God has spoken.

Annie's first post to h+b in years, and this is what interests her.

Ugh.

Phil P.
October 18th 06, 07:48 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
> >> as any further response to his ongoing insults.
> >
> > No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do
> > realize
> > you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more ****ed up than
you
> > think I am!
> >
> >
>
> Gotta love those 30-line posts that are nothing but "booo boooo."
>
> Ugh.

I've never seen such a whiner! And I wasn't even that rough with him! Where
did this character come from? Did someone fish him out of a pity pot?

cybercat
October 18th 06, 07:55 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> >
>> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
>> > oups.com...
>> >
>> >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
>> >> as any further response to his ongoing insults.
>> >
>> > No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do
>> > realize
>> > you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more ****ed up than
> you
>> > think I am!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Gotta love those 30-line posts that are nothing but "booo hoooo."
>>
>> Ugh.
>
> I've never seen such a whiner! And I wasn't even that rough with him!
> Where
> did this character come from? Did someone fish him out of a pity pot?
>
>

I know the perfect place for tension. Don't you? She/he is clearly an
ANECDOLT!!

Hey, Gracie has not had a depo shot or any wheezing or EGC lesions/bumps
all summer through now! I think I have finally found the right balance of
food,
cleaning agents, cat litter, etc. I am so pleased.

And Boo is still weighing in at 8-9 pounds after losing 9-10 on her canned
food diet. She zips around like a kitten, no ill effects from the Tapazole.

October 19th 06, 03:31 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> I think I'd prefer insufferably arrogant to an insufferable whiner like you.

That's a tough one.

Not to change the subject. But between the two of you, why did the docs
in the Bahamas not give a shot of Nalaxone, however it's spelled, to
Anna Nicole Smith's son? That is weird. And the explanations are more
weird. SSRI's doing this with methadone? Not make much sense. More
likely methadone poisoning and guess where that was coming from.

There is serotonin syndrome but changing from one SSRI to another do
that? And people said methadone screwed this up but I don't read
anywhere anything at any time about methadone interacting with SSRIs.
People head of drug organizations saying this. I thought they were just
making this up to get a quote into the media.

The general news just says, mixup of drugs, but I don't think it's that
simple. And I'm suprised it's not beaten around more.

Now what does this have to do with cats? She reminds me of a cat,
albeit, one that had too many or too much of depressants in the system.
Some of her interviews looked as though she was zonked but good. I
wondered if she went to the Bahamas because here in USA the hospitals
might be forced to report if a baby has any drugs in the system of the
nature of methadone since they are controlled severely.

I'm asking because Tension is an ER doc and I wonder what he thinks of
the ER care that went down in that hospital? Should they not have
suspected drug poisoning and given an antidote, not much danger if
useless, rather than watching the young guy die? Check his eyeballs, if
pinpoints, then assume drug overdose in an otherwise very healthy young
person. I doubt they have the malpractice rules in the Bahamas so not
much danger there.

Just asking. If there is methadone in the vicinity and you have a young
person with a short time to live, is it possible to make a quick
diagnosis and give a narcotic antagonist? There was another very public
case of a young woman on a cruise ship. Again, they, the cruise doc and
staff, did nothing and there was not much time. Her boyfriend is
telling them, there is methadone and vicodin in the cabin room so
probably that is related but they ignored him, apparently.

I'll take the answer off the air, guys. I'm pretty sure you fellows can
figure this out.

Rhonda
October 19th 06, 07:24 AM
-L. wrote:
> Rhonda wrote:
>
>>Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you
>>should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war
>>buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat
>>group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an
>>incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on
>>their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the
>>newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or
>>2-Gun, or something like that.
>
> Phoenix Rising. Phil xna-ed all of his posts from that time, but there
> is one where he supposedly "discovered" PR (quoted text):
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.animals.felines/msg/55efc502a1e2da45?dmode=source

Oh man, I started reading that and had to stop! What's with where he
ways he's a psychologist, an expensive "bul****ter to the max?"

Rhonda

Rhonda
October 19th 06, 07:35 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Phil P. wrote:
>>
>>>"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
>>>always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting
> the
>>>meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right
> malicious.
>
>>Phil, I asked you once to explain what happened and you would not. I do
>>not know about a third party or a "meeting." So here's your chance once
>>again -- what was that show all about?
>
> I told you at least a dozen times- a third party set the meeting up.

Phil, Phil, Phil. Hasn't your mother told you a hundred million times
never to exaggerate? :)

I asked you once before, you said someone else "set it up," and that was
it, no explanation. I'm assuming it's all someone else's fault, right?
You are a completely innocent party. Someone held a gun to your head and
made you take part.

It doesn't matter any more. You won't explain and you won't apologize or
take any responsibility, and you don't get my respect because of that.

> Why
> are you so obsessed with a 7 year-old thread that you weren't even a part of
> or even a participant in the newsgroup? I think you have some serious
> issues of your own that need attention.

Seven years, wow! Bet you thought it would die long before now, since
you canceled all of the posts?

>>>Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories? Seems
>>>like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
>>>people post here about.
>>
>>Are you jealous of our cat's medical problems, Phil?
>
> Not at all- I just think you make up most the stories about your cats'
> problems so you look like you have experience treating them. Either that or
> you have extremely bad luck with pets or you just don't take very good care
> of them. Actually, I believe the former.

You're such a card, Phil.

>>Why do you never talk about your cats or their problems?
>
>
> I have. You just choose to ignore those posts because you're a malicious
> asshole. Fortunately, my cats don't have many problems.

If I'm malicious, you've lived a sheltered life.

I'm happy your cats never have health problems. You must get your
experience from a book then?

>>>One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of
>>> those
>>>too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you
>>> look
>
>>>like you have experience.
>>
>>Sorry, haven't had a dog in years and years.
>
> That doesn't matter- You could conjure up a "my dog too" story just the
> same.

Nah, too much effort. It's been enlightening chatting with you.

Rhonda

Rhonda
October 19th 06, 07:39 AM
Hi Matthew, I have heard him talk about checking on traps, etc.

I just never hear him say things about his own cats and make references
to specific instances of medical problems. It always seems so general or
just authoritative. I think it helps when talking about medical issues
to put some reference into what you're talking about -- your own
experience or a source of the info.

I'm going to drop it now. I've said what I wanted to say and we all have
our own opinions.

Rhonda

Matthew wrote:
> He talks about his cats . I have had many of conversations with Phil about
> his cats and his feral's colonies he takes care of. I even asked about his
> feral colonies in this thread.

tension_on_the_wire
October 19th 06, 08:11 AM
Rhonda wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
> > Why
> > are you so obsessed with a 7 year-old thread that you weren't even a part of
> > or even a participant in the newsgroup? I think you have some serious
> > issues of your own that need attention.
>
> Seven years, wow! Bet you thought it would die long before now, since
> you canceled all of the posts?

Actually, they aren't all gone. It seems to be a hot topic that hit
a nerve so I had a look. If you go from Phoenix Rising posts
to his posting history, you can see quite a bit more of the
act with Phil Pass-quoted-posts. It is quite a show.
I can see why he would try to get rid of them.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 19th 06, 08:13 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something--
> you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more comfortable
> in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to fragile
> for this group.

I see, so not only are you a quack-vet,
you are a quack-psychiatrist also.
Any other quack-professions you
would like to let us in on?
Quack-Nam-vet too, maybe?

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 19th 06, 08:17 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> ps.com...

> > Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
> > the wrong side of him
>
>
> My cats can't get on the wrong side of me, asshole.


Hmmm...another nerve.
--tension

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:45 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something--
> > you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more
comfortable
> > in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to
fragile
> > for this group.
>
> I see, so not only are you a quack-vet,

Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to
help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol!

I see I still have your panties in a bunch!

Its easy to understand why you call yourself "tension"-- you're wrapped way
too tight! lol!

You know, if you were a little smarter, I'd say you're a troll.

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:47 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Though I will certainly
> continue to watch his activity, for sure.

A new hall monitor! lol!

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:48 AM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> > ps.com...
>
> > > Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on
> > > the wrong side of him
> >
> >
> > My cats can't get on the wrong side of me, asshole.
>
>
> Hmmm...another nerve.
> --tension

You're still here whining- So whose nerve was really hit? lol

Is this how you go through life- whining insessantly every time you get
insulted? lol!

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:50 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Oh man, I started reading that and had to stop!


....but you keep going back and back to read more and you keep talking about
it! lol! This is at least the 10th time you brought it up- Maybe the story
really turns you on- makes you feel all tingly, maybe? Huh, Ronnie?


What's with where he
> ways he's a psychologist, an expensive "bul****ter to the max?"

What? I got you all nervous and fumbly, huh, Ronnie LOL!

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:50 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Matthew, I have heard him talk about checking on traps, etc.
>
> I just never hear him say things about his own cats

lol! You must be the only person here who hasn't! lol! You must miss a lot
of things in life.

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 11:57 AM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Phil P. wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Rhonda" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>Still obsessing over a story that you know nothing about? You seem to
> >>>always intentionally leave out the part about a third party admitting
> > the
> >>>meeting was a set up. I may be a prick- but you're down right
> > malicious.
> >
> >>Phil, I asked you once to explain what happened and you would not. I do
> >>not know about a third party or a "meeting." So here's your chance once
> >>again -- what was that show all about?
> >
> > I told you at least a dozen times- a third party set the meeting up.
>
> Phil, Phil, Phil. Hasn't your mother told you a hundred million times
> never to exaggerate? :)



Hasn't your mother told you not to lie? That was a conservative estimate,
Ronnie- I tell you same thing every time you bring it up- which is every
time I have an argument with someone. You've been bringing that story up
since you've been here - and you weren't even there when it happened! lol!



>
> I asked you once before,


Once? You can't count very well, can you? Take off your shoes.


you said someone else "set it up," and that was
> it, no explanation. I'm assuming it's all someone else's fault, right?


Fault? LOL! What fault?



> You are a completely innocent party. Someone held a gun to your head and
> made you take part.

Not at all, Ronnie. I actually enjoyed it at the time until I found out it
was a well-intentioned set up.

>
> It doesn't matter any more.


Oh it sure as hell matters A LOT to YOU! LOL! You keep bring it up every
chance you get! lol! The story must turn you on! lol!

You won't explain and you won't apologize or
> take any responsibility, and you don't get my respect because of that.


Apologize? LMAO! I have nothing to explain or apologize for! And don't
flatter yourself, Ronnie- I don't want your respect. In fact I'm glad I
**** you off! lol!


>
> > Why
> > are you so obsessed with a 7 year-old thread that you weren't even a
part of
> > or even a participant in the newsgroup? I think you have some serious
> > issues of your own that need attention.
>
> Seven years, wow! Bet you thought it would die long before now, since
> you canceled all of the posts?
>
> >>>Btw, have you conjured up any more "my cat had that too" stories?
Seems
> >>>like conjure up a story about one of your cats for almost every disease
> >>>people post here about.
> >>
> >>Are you jealous of our cat's medical problems, Phil?


Not at all. I just think you make up most of them so you sound like you have
experience. You have more "my cat too" stories than any 20 people in this
group! lol!



> >
> > Not at all- I just think you make up most the stories about your cats'
> > problems so you look like you have experience treating them. Either
that or
> > you have extremely bad luck with pets or you just don't take very good
care
> > of them. Actually, I believe the former.
>
> You're such a card, Phil.

I hit the nail on the head, didn't I Ronnie?

>
> >>Why do you never talk about your cats or their problems?
> >
> >
> > I have. You just choose to ignore those posts because you're a malicious
> > asshole. Fortunately, my cats don't have many problems.
>
> If I'm malicious, you've lived a sheltered life.


Either you're malicious or you're a moron. Which is Ronnie? The way you go
though so much trouble to try to discredit me every chance you get one
couldn't be blamed for thinking you're malicious and envious and jealous.
Otherwise, why would you bother to keep trying and trying and trying and
trying and failing? lol! If was just a matter of not liking me, you would
killfile me (but then you wouldn't learn anything) or ignore me. But you
actively try to discredit me- so your obsession goes much deeper than simply
dislike. You're malicious- in pathological kind of way.

>
> I'm happy your cats never have health problems. You must get your
> experience from a book then?

Yes, I got a lot of my techinical knowledge from research and vets- but my
experience comes from managing cats with special needs for >45 years. You
must be the only person in this group that doesn't know I manage cats with
special needs for two rescue organizations and several indivuduals. You
manage to remember a story that you weren't even around for 7 years ago, but
you can't remember I work in rescue when its mentioned at least a few time a
week and plastered all over my website? lol! Maybe you really are a
dimwitted moron! lol!


>
> >>>One our dogs has a dermoid on his left eye? Got a cat that had one of
> >>> those
> >>>too? Go ahead, Google "dermoid" then conjure up another story so you
> >>> look
> >
> >>>like you have experience.
> >>
> >>Sorry, haven't had a dog in years and years.
> >
> > That doesn't matter- You could conjure up a "my dog too" story just the
> > same.
>
> Nah, too much effort. It's been enlightening chatting with you.
>


The pleasure has been all yours- You are amusing in a sick kind of way. I'll
be looking forward to your next "my cat too" bull**** story. lol

cybercat
October 19th 06, 04:44 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> Though I will certainly
>> continue to watch his activity, for sure.
>
> A new hall monitor! lol!
>

:)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

tension_on_the_wire
October 19th 06, 05:14 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something--
> > > you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more
> comfortable
> > > in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to
> fragile
> > > for this group.
> >
> > I see, so not only are you a quack-vet,
>
> Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to
> help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol!

No....just you. You are the only one who acts like a vet
and bridles when asked about it.

> I see I still have your panties in a bunch!

No, that's you too....you are the one who keeps needing
to answer everyone's post, line by line (which, since you
brought the subject up, is quite indicative of OCD, ironically
enough) and defend yourself in the only way you know how...
by attacking others.

Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch.
You haven't succeeded yet. I invite you to
try again.

--tension

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 07:02 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "cybercat" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >> >
> >> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> >> > oups.com...
> >> >
> >> >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far
> >> >> as any further response to his ongoing insults.
> >> >
> >> > No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do
> >> > realize
> >> > you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more ****ed up than
> > you
> >> > think I am!
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Gotta love those 30-line posts that are nothing but "booo hoooo."
> >>
> >> Ugh.
> >
> > I've never seen such a whiner! And I wasn't even that rough with him!
> > Where
> > did this character come from? Did someone fish him out of a pity pot?
> >
> >
>
> I know the perfect place for tension. Don't you? She/he is clearly an
> ANECDOLT!!

Absolutely! They'd just love Tinkerbell.


>
> Hey, Gracie has not had a depo shot or any wheezing or EGC lesions/bumps
> all summer through now!


Wow! That's great. I'm really happy she's off the injections. I hope she
continues to do well.


I think I have finally found the right balance of
> food,
> cleaning agents, cat litter, etc. I am so pleased.


You should be- You worked at it long and hard enough. Its usually very
difficult to isolate the allergen(s) that triggers reactions in cats. So
when a cat's symptoms finally stabilize, I don't change a thing and just
keep my fingers crossed.


>
> And Boo is still weighing in at 8-9 pounds after losing 9-10 on her canned
> food diet.


She lost 10 pounds?!!! That's absolutely fantastic!


> She zips around like a kitten, no ill effects from the Tapazole.


Actually, about 80-85% of the cats on Tapazole do well. My cat was in the
15-20% that don't. Her T4 has been holding steady in the dead center of
normal and her kidney function has actually improved! I attribute the
improvement in kidney function to the omega-3s and potassium.

P.

Phil P.
October 19th 06, 07:03 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Phil P. wrote:
> > "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >

> > >
> > > I see, so not only are you a quack-vet,
> >
> > Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to
> > help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol!
>
> No....just you. You are the only one who acts like a vet


Golly gee, Tinkerbell, what you're really seeing- but you just don't realize
it, is my >45 years of research and experience working with cats. Btw,
Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!


>
> > I see I still have your panties in a bunch!
>
> No, that's you too....


Sure it is, Tink. lol! Is that why you've been writing one whining novel
after another? lol


>
> Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch.
> You haven't succeeded yet.


I don't think so, Tinkerbell. I've had your panties in a knot since my
first reply to you. lol! And you've been whining ever since. lol

tension_on_the_wire
October 20th 06, 05:33 AM
Phil P. wrote:
> Golly gee, Tinkerbell, what you're really seeing- but you just don't realize
> it, is my >45 years of research and experience working with cats. Btw,
> Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!

LOL! Golly gee Dr. Phil!! We wouldn't know since we haven't
seen one in here yet. You are the only one who acts as
if he thinks he is a vet. And hesitates to admit that he is not.
Is that clear enough for you? Do you need more 30-line
posts? I note that you are the only one posting great big
whining complaints for some time now. Tell me more about
your 45 years of experience. It is utterly irrelevant to the
topic of this post, I never questioned your knowledge,
just your manners. And with every post, you prove me
right! Lol.

(looks around for someone named *Tink*...oh, the previous
posters cat, well Dr. Phil must be getting Alzheimer's too, then)

> > > I see I still have your panties in a bunch!
> > No, that's you too....
> Sure it is, Tink. lol! Is that why you've been writing one whining novel
> after another? lol

Yes, let's count the number of posts that constitute novel
length, shall we? Oh guess what? Yours outnumber mine
by a factor of three to two. And yours are *much* longer.
Practising for a filibuster somewhere, are you? Lol!

> > Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch.
> > You haven't succeeded yet.
> I don't think so, Tinkerbell. I've had your panties in a knot since my
> first reply to you. lol! And you've been whining ever since. lol

Yes, this is commonly known as projection, when someone is so
enraged, they can't type straight, and waste their time accusing
others of what they themselves are doing. Every post of yours
so far has been a supreme example of that. If you really want
to figure out whose knickers are in a twist (or panties, which you
seem to prefer...is that ladies panties?)...just count the posts
that were typed in anger and you will have your answer. Oh,
golly gee...it's Dr. Phil ranting and yelling all over the place.
Now what *could* that possibly mean? Why yes, I think
several sensitive nerves got hit when this poster dared to
come into this group. Not to mention the "adynamic ileus"
response, ROFLMAO.

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 20th 06, 07:15 AM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> Phil P. wrote:
> > Btw,
> > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!

Since you ask:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8

--tension

Phil P.
October 20th 06, 02:36 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
I never questioned your knowledge,
> just your manners.

No, really? Golly gee, Tinkerbell, no one's ever told me that I have bad
manners before... lol Surely, you must be the only person on the planet
that doesn't like my manners... Actually, I don't mind if you don't like my
manners- I don't like them myself, they're pretty bad. I grieve over them
on long winter nights. lol

Well, Tinkerbell, the way I see it you have two choices:

1: Learn to live with it and stop whining incessantly about how bad my
manners are; and

2: killfile me so you don't have to whine incessantly about how badly I hurt
your delicate feelings.

Either choice should stop your incessant whining.

Well, Tinkerbell- I can see you'll just keep going on and on like a bad case
of diarrhea, so I'll leave you now to sulk in the corner and pamper your
shattered, delicate feelings. Its been fun playing with you, I needed a
break- but I do have much more important matters to tend to.

Ta ta

Phil P.
October 20th 06, 02:43 PM
"tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > Btw,
> > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!
>
> Since you ask:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8
>


That was funny! I loved it- I sent it to my vets. Thanks

You must have pooped out that bug- there still might be some hope for you!

tension_on_the_wire
October 20th 06, 05:55 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> I never questioned your knowledge,
> > just your manners.
>
> No, really? Golly gee, Tinkerbell, no one's ever told me that I have bad
> manners before... lol Surely, you must be the only person on the planet
> that doesn't like my manners... Actually, I don't mind if you don't like my
> manners- I don't like them myself, they're pretty bad. I grieve over them
> on long winter nights. lol
>
> Well, Tinkerbell, the way I see it you have two choices:
>
> 1: Learn to live with it and stop whining incessantly about how bad my
> manners are; and
>
> 2: killfile me so you don't have to whine incessantly about how badly I hurt
> your delicate feelings.
>
> Either choice should stop your incessant whining.
>
> Well, Tinkerbell- I can see you'll just keep going on and on like a bad case
> of diarrhea, so I'll leave you now to sulk in the corner and pamper your
> shattered, delicate feelings. Its been fun playing with you, I needed a
> break- but I do have much more important matters to tend to.
>
> Ta ta

Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up!

--tension

tension_on_the_wire
October 20th 06, 05:56 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "tension_on_the_wire" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> > tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> > > Phil P. wrote:
> > > > Btw,
> > > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!
> >
> > Since you ask:
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8
> >
>
>
> That was funny! I loved it- I sent it to my vets. Thanks
>
> You must have pooped out that bug- there still might be some hope for you!

8^P

--tension

-L.
October 20th 06, 06:59 PM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up!
>
> --tension

This same discussion has been played out probably 50 times in this ng
with Phil, for the same reasons. It was a waste of time to begin with.
When you start worrying about other people's manners and posting style
and motivations on Usenet, it's time to quit reading Usenet.

-L.

PawsForThought
October 20th 06, 08:31 PM
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
> > Phil P. wrote:
> > > Btw,
> > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol!
>
> Since you ask:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8
>
> --tension

LMAO! I'm not usually a Monty Python fan, but that was pretty funny.

Lauren
(and Mickey & Meesha)
Raise Your Paw for Raw!
See my cats: http://mickeymeesha.photosite.com/mm/

Rhonda
October 21st 06, 08:39 AM
-L. wrote:
> tension_on_the_wire wrote:
>
>>Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up!
>>
>>--tension

> This same discussion has been played out probably 50 times in this ng
> with Phil, for the same reasons. It was a waste of time to begin with.
> When you start worrying about other people's manners and posting style
> and motivations on Usenet, it's time to quit reading Usenet.

Well, I suppose it's a waste of time to people who read it and aren't
interested, but it's quite easy to mark a thread as read. I did find
your post with the link quite interesting. And the thread allowed me to
see that -tension is someone who can stand up for their beliefs even
when they catch flack for it. Oh yah, and be civil at the same time -- a
lost art on uesenet, I'll admit.

Rhonda

PawsForThought
October 21st 06, 05:20 PM
wrote:
> Now what does this have to do with cats? She reminds me of a cat,
> albeit, one that had too many or too much of depressants in the system.

Okie dokie, then.......

> I'm asking because Tension is an ER doc and I wonder what he thinks of
> the ER care that went down in that hospital? Should they not have
> suspected drug poisoning and given an antidote, not much danger if
> useless, rather than watching the young guy die? Check his eyeballs, if
> pinpoints, then assume drug overdose in an otherwise very healthy young
> person. I doubt they have the malpractice rules in the Bahamas so not
> much danger there.

When you read a story in the media, you are only getting very little
information. I'm sure the ER docs there did what was required and
necessary at the time. Unless a doctor is actually there, he is not
going to know the facts and circumstances. Asking Tension, just
because he's a physician, is kinda ridiculous, don't you think? But
then again....

> I'll take the answer off the air, guys. I'm pretty sure you fellows can
> figure this out.

Most definitely.

October 23rd 06, 03:49 AM
PawsForThought wrote:
> wrote:
> > Now what does this have to do with cats? She reminds me of a cat,
> > albeit, one that had too many or too much of depressants in the system.
>
> Okie dokie, then.......
>
> > I'm asking because Tension is an ER doc and I wonder what he thinks of
> > the ER care that went down in that hospital? Should they not have
> > suspected drug poisoning and given an antidote, not much danger if
> > useless, rather than watching the young guy die? Check his eyeballs, if
> > pinpoints, then assume drug overdose in an otherwise very healthy young
> > person. I doubt they have the malpractice rules in the Bahamas so not
> > much danger there.
>
> When you read a story in the media, you are only getting very little
> information. I'm sure the ER docs there did what was required and
> necessary at the time. Unless a doctor is actually there, he is not
> going to know the facts and circumstances. Asking Tension, just
> because he's a physician, is kinda ridiculous, don't you think? But
> then again....

How can you be so sure of the ER care in the Bahamas, and that
particular hospital? Are you serious or just making waves?

In any event, the two cases I mentioned - the people died because an
antidote was not given. There's no doubt about that. That is a sure
clue that nothing intelligent was done.

You don't think death is a good sign of competent care? The operation
was a success but the patient died? Tension is an emergency doc so I
was asking about a narcotic antogonist when you have someone who is
going to die before any blood tests can come back. A tough decision but
one that has to be made in narcotic overdoses. This is a question you
can ask of any ER doc because it's a good one.

I have also seen extraordinarily incompetent care in very highly rated
hospitals in the ER. One place, with a world famous reputation, took a
gun shot wound and left the victim unattended for 45 minutes. I was
there in the ER and saw that happen. That was an eye opener. And then I
saw an ER doc tell the family, who could not see what was happening,
everything is okay, don't worry. Yeah, right. My friend was the night
supervisor at this hospital and we discussed later what went down and
why the care was negligent. It's kind of a funny story except for the
young fellow who got shot.