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December 5th 06, 06:29 PM
http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf

cybercat
December 5th 06, 06:34 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf
>

Interesting, and there is definitely a need for this information. For
example, the shelter staff described my Gracie as "feral" when they found
her pregnant, but she is so gentle she not only seeks affection but will not
put her claws out when you hold her against her will. Though she was at the
shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could
have socialized her in that time.

Phil P.
December 7th 06, 07:05 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf
> >
>
> Interesting, and there is definitely a need for this information. For
> example, the shelter staff described my Gracie as "feral" when they found
> her pregnant, but she is so gentle she not only seeks affection but will
not
> put her claws out when you hold her against her will. Though she was at
the
> shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could
> have socialized her in that time.

Many if not most people- including the people who should know better- can't
differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot
of adoptable cats are killed because of this.

-L.
December 7th 06, 07:47 AM
cybercat wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf
> >
>
> Interesting, and there is definitely a need for this information. For
> example, the shelter staff described my Gracie as "feral" when they found
> her pregnant, but she is so gentle she not only seeks affection but will not
> put her claws out when you hold her against her will. Though she was at the
> shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could
> have socialized her in that time.

She was probably a stray. A feral is hard to miss if you know what to
look for.

-L.

cybercat
December 7th 06, 01:37 PM
"Phil P." > wrote:.
>
> Many if not most people- including the people who should know better-
> can't
> differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot
> of adoptable cats are killed because of this.
>

That's so sad.

cybercat
December 7th 06, 01:42 PM
"-L." > wrote
>
> She was probably a stray. A feral is hard to miss if you know what to
> look for.
>

I imagine this is true. Sometimes people just like to use the more
dramatic word to describe them, maybe. People can be so weird.
Even from her shelter picture, I could see how polite she was. This
cat meows as she is approaching for loving, a series of quizzical
little mews, like she is asking permission. She had to be very
young, though, when they found her pregnant, because she had
been at the shelter for four months when I adopted her, had had
her kittens and been spayed. I could definitely see her being born
among humans and then dumped. Her brother was found with her
at the same trailer park, the lady said. Gracie only had two kittens,
both gray tabbies like her, and she nursed a third, who was
orphaned.

Wendy
December 7th 06, 02:25 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf
>> >
>>
>> Interesting, and there is definitely a need for this information. For
>> example, the shelter staff described my Gracie as "feral" when they found
>> her pregnant, but she is so gentle she not only seeks affection but will
> not
>> put her claws out when you hold her against her will. Though she was at
> the
>> shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could
>> have socialized her in that time.
>
> Many if not most people- including the people who should know better-
> can't
> differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot
> of adoptable cats are killed because of this.
>
>
>

What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their
lives but have had dealings with humans. We picked up 4 brothers (approx. 9
mo old)recently who were born behind a restaurant. I don't know that anyone
could pet them while they were outside but they were feeding them... well
lol. One of the brothers came around rather quickly and is available for
adoption already. One looks like he's going to have to be put back because
he's not coming around at all and the jury is out on the other two. I'll get
an update this weekend. They haven't been aggressive but aren't getting past
the flat ears, cowering, scared cat point. The foster said she was going to
try separating them and see if there is any progress. If not they can get
returned where they came from as they do have a feeder in addition to the
tidbits the restaurant people put out for them. I just had to have a
discussion with them over feeding stuff with onions though.

http://www.savethecatsinc.com/animals/detail?AnimalID=86110

Annie Wxill
December 8th 06, 02:37 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
> What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their
> lives but have had dealings with humans.

Hi Wendy,
How about calling them homeless?
Annie

Phil P.
December 8th 06, 06:48 AM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their
> > lives but have had dealings with humans.
>
> Hi Wendy,
> How about calling them homeless?
> Annie

If they're true ferals they aren't homeless.

Phil

Phil P.
December 8th 06, 06:49 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

> What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their
> lives but have had dealings with humans.

Whatdaya mean by "had dealings with humans"?


We picked up 4 brothers (approx. 9
> mo old)recently who were born behind a restaurant. I don't know that
anyone
> could pet them while they were outside but they were feeding them... well
> lol.

A lot of hard ferals will let their feeders touch them- even rub up against
them- but only their feeders.



One of the brothers came around rather quickly and is available for
> adoption already. One looks like he's going to have to be put back because
> he's not coming around at all and the jury is out on the other two.


Personality and temperment can vary greatly between littermates. Some cats
take longer than others to come around- could take several weeks to several
months or even a year or more- some cats never come around. You need to
find the right person who is willing to give the cat all the time he needs
without forcing themselves on the cat and understands and accepts the
possibility that the cat may never become a lap cat.



I'll get
> an update this weekend. They haven't been aggressive but aren't getting
past
> the flat ears, cowering, scared cat point. The foster said she was going
to
> try separating them and see if there is any progress.


It doesn't seem like she has the patience- or maybe the time- to let the
cats come around in their own good time. Separating them is probably the
worst thing she could do. Ferals develop strong bonds with each
other-especially littermates. I think keeping them all together will make
the transition less stressful and traumatic.



If not they can get
> returned where they came from as they do have a feeder in addition to the
> tidbits the restaurant people put out for them. I just had to have a
> discussion with them over feeding stuff with onions though.
>
> http://www.savethecatsinc.com/animals/detail?AnimalID=86110

How much time is the foster willing to invest in these cats? The feeder
would probably be a better choice and would probably make more progress
since the cats already know and probably trust her.

Phil

December 8th 06, 08:38 AM
The reason that I posted this was that I had been thinking about some
of thiis stuff since I took over part-time feeder duties for a small
colony of local outdoor cats - and am now working with a rescue that
"only" takes adoptable cats and shys away from ferals - however that is
described - and that is where the rubber hits the road - isn't it?

I think the article made some sensible points about TNR and it was
bracing for me to read it since I go through regular bouts of anguish
about whether I should be trying to "rescue" the street crew (who are
spayed and neutered and have regular feeders as well as a fairly secure
residential property where they are more or less welcome on the
grounds), but as I have gotten to know them some have become pettable
and that definitely makes it harder - although I know intellectually
that they will most likely respond pretty badly to a cage and the
embraces of strangers - having never "belonged" to anyone - and it
takes too long to adopt out "friendly" adult cats as it is.

But it's hard ...

The article also doesn't make the meaningful distinction between feral
and semi-feral that has to be made and as 2 of my 3 that live in my
house have the ear clip - somewhat unjustly - I'm starting to think
feral is a term that we need to be more precise about. One of mine
probably has some claim to feral - not born in the wild, but abandoned
as a young cat in parkland and lived for several months with the colony
(well on the outskirts of it anyway) before being picked up by a TNR
crew who noticed that she didn't WANT to leave the crate after being
spayed and got her into rescue. I'd describe her as traumatized more
than feral per se, but she'll never be a normal, socialized cat - big
panic reactions and anxiety - although she has come an incredibly long
way. The other apparently was born to a feral mom and while she has
some weird behavior from time to time - was removed and socialized
quite young and isn't remotely a wild cat, just has a notched ear,
that's all. The 3rd one is domestic all the way and handles the "manage
the humans" issues for the trio :> And yeah, you can tell the
difference ...

Anyway just food for thought, I guess.

-T

Annie Wxill
December 8th 06, 08:35 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> If they're true ferals they aren't homeless.
> Phil
>
Hi Phil,
Yes, I understand what you mean. Technically, true ferals have a home and
family. The family is the colony and the home is where they live.

But, I'm thinking that they are still domesticated-type cats that have
reverted to a wild state or were born into this situation. They got this
way because somewhere up the line, due to human irresponsibility, individual
cats who had a home or should have had a home became essentially homeless.

As you know, many of what people call ferals are really cats who somehow
have been separated from their human homes and are frightened and confused
and appear wild.

The question, as I understand it, is what do you call cats who are what
might be called "in the wild" although they may be in urban areas, and have
some sort of relation with people.

I think it depends on what kind of relation we're talking about. It seems to
me that cats in this situation may or may not be feral. The ones who are
not feral most likely would be homeless.

I know that some caretakers of colonies refer to the latter as hard strays.
Perhaps that is the answer to the question.

Regards,
Annie

Phil P.
December 14th 06, 12:45 PM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...

Hi Annie,

> The question, as I understand it, is what do you call cats who are what
> might be called "in the wild" although they may be in urban areas, and
have
> some sort of relation with people.

Semi-feral or hard stray.

>
> I think it depends on what kind of relation we're talking about. It seems
to
> me that cats in this situation may or may not be feral. The ones who are
> not feral most likely would be homeless.
>
> I know that some caretakers of colonies refer to the latter as hard
strays.
> Perhaps that is the answer to the question.


I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most people
than hard stray.

Phil

Annie Wxill
December 14th 06, 07:48 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
> ...
>
....> I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most
people
> than hard stray.
> Phil
>
I think so, too.

In these cases, we are attempting to describe the cats' state of
socialization to human company.

And, I think some sort of distinction is important because it can be the
difference between life and death for the cats who find themselves under the
jurisdiction of animal control officials.

However, I believe there is a case for using the word "homeless" to describe
their circumstance as opposed to describing their state of being. The cats
we are talking about, even if they are feral and living by their own
resources, are domesticated as opposed to cats such as lions, tigers,
cougars, etc.

I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated cats, but
rather the result of necessity and brought about by human neglect.

Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but in
general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time. Those
living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other care) from
human caretakers. The environment in which they live will not fully support
them because they may be wild, but they are not really "in the wild."

It is my belief that although some individuals probably are beyond the point
of being able to accept integration into a human household, in general, cats
belong under human care and in a human household.

This is why I prefer to think of these cats as homeless. I think it is also
a more compelling word and elicits more sympathy for these animals than
feral. (Sort of a marketing ploy.)

The human equivalent might be a person who lives in a car, a cardboard box
in an alley, or under a bridge. The car or the box or the bridge may be the
person's home, but we still consider that person homeless

Of course, I realize that although a loving home for every cat may be a
desirable goal, it certainly is not the case today, and in spite of our
efforts, probably will not ever be fully achieved.

We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time.

Annie

Lynne
December 14th 06, 08:24 PM
on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:48:03 GMT, "Annie Wxill"
> wrote:

> Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but
> in
> general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time.
> Those living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other
> care) from human caretakers. The environment in which they live will
> not fully support them because they may be wild, but they are not
> really "in the wild."

both of my current cats were found living in a feral colony in the woods,
away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony
(colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions, but my friends
snag the kittens whenever they can.

--
Lynne

Phil P.
December 14th 06, 11:43 PM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> ...> I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most
> people
> > than hard stray.
> > Phil
> >
> I think so, too.
>
> In these cases, we are attempting to describe the cats' state of
> socialization to human company.

In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless
since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with little
human interaction. Homeless would be be more appropriate for a lost or
abandoned cat.


>
> And, I think some sort of distinction is important because it can be the
> difference between life and death for the cats who find themselves under
the
> jurisdiction of animal control officials.

Absotively. Unfortunately, a frightened or unfriendly lost pet cat usually
meets with same fate as a captured feral.

>
> However, I believe there is a case for using the word "homeless" to
describe
> their circumstance as opposed to describing their state of being. The
cats
> we are talking about, even if they are feral and living by their own
> resources, are domesticated as opposed to cats such as lions, tigers,
> cougars, etc.


Actually, if the cats were born and lived their entire lives in the wild
with little human interaction, the circumstances and state of being are one
in the same. They're feral. An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and
never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a
squirrel or a lion or tiger. They aren't homeless. The only difference is
size (and the amount of damage they can do to you).



>
> I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated cats,

Actually, it is. That's why we use the term "revert to feral" for former pet
cats that live in the wild for a long time without human interaction. Cats
are naturally born wild- not domesticated. That's why human interaction is
crucial during the kitten's first 2 to 7 weeks- although some ferals can be
tamed when they're much older; it depends on the individual cat's
personality. Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to
Felis Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's
definition. The only difference is one is socialized to humans and the other
isn't. A feral cat is more of a "natural" cat than a domesticated pet cat.
But I love them both just the same! ;)

There are several truly wild ferals in my colonies that rub against me at
feeding time- some will even let me pet them- but only me. But make no
mistake- these are ferals- wild cats- and not domesticated cats.

but
> rather the result of necessity and brought about by human neglect.

I understand how you feel and agree to a point. What about the offspring of
the offspring of the offspring of a lost domesticated pet cat?


>
> Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but in
> general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time.

That's not entirely accurate. Ferals can live just as long, and in many
cases, even longer than other wildlife on their own. There are about 100
million ferals in the US-- only a very small fraction live in managed
colonies.

Those
> living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other care)
from
> human caretakers. The environment in which they live will not fully
support
> them because they may be wild, but they are not really "in the wild."


I can't agree with you on that. Most managed colonies have survived for
*years* before they became managed. For instance, one of my colonies'
territory overlaps undeveloped county property. This colony has survived
there for over *15 years*- generation after generation. The public and
county employees were prohibited from feeding them or providing shelters.
The only reason we're allowed to TNR and manage the colony now is because
the county has spent a fortune over the years going around in endless
circles trapping and killing the cats with no progress. Make no mistake- a
feral is fully capable of surviving with the deftness of the most wild of
wild animals.


>
> It is my belief that although some individuals probably are beyond the
point
> of being able to accept integration into a human household, in general,
cats
> belong under human care and in a human household.

I doubt you'll find a stronger proponent for keeping cats indoors and/or in
protected outdoor enclosures than me. But ferals in general belong "in the
wild"- its their home. I know its hard to look at a feral as a wild animal-
but that's what they are and I respect that.


>
> This is why I prefer to think of these cats as homeless. I think it is
also
> a more compelling word and elicits more sympathy for these animals than
> feral. (Sort of a marketing ploy.)

That's true- but calling a feral, semi-feral or a hard stray a "homeless
cat" can also lead to seriously false expectations from the the cat- not to
mention a real danger for the adoptive.


>
> The human equivalent might be a person who lives in a car, a cardboard box
> in an alley, or under a bridge. The car or the box or the bridge may be
the
> person's home, but we still consider that person homeless


That analogy doesn't apply to ferals because "the wild" *is* their home.


>
> Of course, I realize that although a loving home for every cat may be a
> desirable goal, it certainly is not the case today, and in spite of our
> efforts, probably will not ever be fully achieved.

I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and even
in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, *very* big.



>
> We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time.

I try to do the best thing for each particular cat with which I come in
contact. Sometimes, the best thing doesn't seem like the right thing.

Phil

Annie Wxill
December 15th 06, 12:49 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
....> both of my current cats were found living in a feral colony in the
woods,
> away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony
> (colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions, but my friends
> snag the kittens whenever they can.
>
> --
> Lynne
I don't consider myself an expert on feral cat colonies.
I'm sure that there are exceptions, which is why I said I believe the
statement to be generally true that most colonies are not so much in the
wild as the ones you mention.
Also, cats can roam over quite a distance. Maybe the cats you describe have
some interaction with humans after all.
Apparently the area is accessible to humans. How did your friends discover
the colonies? By snagging the kittens whenever they can, your friends are
supporting the colony by reducing the eventual number of cats competing for
food in that area.
Are your friends also providing food at any time, or TNR as well? Are they
sure nobody else has discovered the cats and may be providing some food or
care?

Actually, the point I was trying to make is that too many cats are called
feral just because they are, or appear to be, on their own. Some cats called
feral for this reason are not really feral. Some of their behavior
resembles that of a feral, but the cause is stress, fear, confusion, and
lack of or loss of trust. In general, these cats may be in rural or urban
areas and are not living in areas remote enough to be called wild.

I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people.

Even a gentle, pampered housecat can display "wild-like" behavior, given the
right circumstances. If this cat falls into the hands of someone who cannot
distinguish between a true feral and this cat and gets the feral label, that
cat may be deemed unadoptable and the sentence is death.

So, is there a better term for these cats who are not true ferals? I
propose "homeless," even though, as Phil pointed out, these cats, especially
those in colonies have a place that they consider home. My rationale is
below.

First, "homeless" is better P.R. It is not as scary as "feral" and would
be more accurate for those cats who are lost or abandoned pets.

I believe that even the cats out in the woods in your area are domestic cats
(as opposed to truly wild cats including lions, tigers, cougars, etc.) and
due to human neglect are in an environment that is not natural to them.
They turn feral in behavior to adapt, but genetically, they are domestic
cats.

Their natural environment is at home with and under the loving care of
humans. I believe this applies whether the cat is living indoor, outdoor or
some combination.

Therefore, cats not living in this environment could accurately be called
homeless, even if they are in a colony.

(Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the cats in the woods in your area are
better off than some cats with some people, but that's a whole other
discussion.)

I hope I am making some sense and not just confusing you.

Please give those two rescues of yours a skritch from me. They are lucky to
be safe and spoiled as the should be.

Annie

Wendy
December 15th 06, 01:03 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Phil P." > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> >
>> > "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>
> I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and
> even
> in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, *very* big.
>
>
>
>>
>> We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time.
>
> I try to do the best thing for each particular cat with which I come in
> contact. Sometimes, the best thing doesn't seem like the right thing.
>
> Phil
>
>
>

And sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We brought in
a pregnant 'stray' last spring. The woman who called us begged and begged
that we help this girl because of the horrible conditions the cats were
living in. So we brought her in to have her kittens. She was friendly until
she delivered the babies and then turned into kujo-kitty. The foster mom had
been keeping them in her downstairs bathroom and wasn't able to use it for
weeks because of the cat. She settled down some but still is not a good
candidate for adoption. Problem now is what to do with her. She can't go
back to where she came from and she isn't happy inside.

W

Lynne
December 15th 06, 01:04 AM
on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:49:46 GMT, "Annie Wxill"
> wrote:

> Also, cats can roam over quite a distance. Maybe the cats you
> describe have some interaction with humans after all.
> Apparently the area is accessible to humans. How did your friends
> discover the colonies?

They were bushwhacking (off trail hiking) in the national forest.
Definitely no humans living in the area or near the area.

> Are your friends also providing food at any time, or TNR as well?

Nope.

> I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people.

I think most people don't know what it means, to be honest

> First, "homeless" is better P.R. It is not as scary as "feral" and
> would be more accurate for those cats who are lost or abandoned pets.

Actually, I think "stray" covers what you are describing.

> I believe that even the cats out in the woods in your area are
> domestic cats (as opposed to truly wild cats including lions, tigers,
> cougars, etc.) and due to human neglect are in an environment that is
> not natural to them. They turn feral in behavior to adapt, but
> genetically, they are domestic cats.

I wonder if you understand what the term feral really means. One
definition, and the one that applies here is "having reverted to the wild
state, as from domestication" (from dictionary.com). I really don't
think any distinction needs to be made about cats who are "homeless"
other than stray or feral. Feral colonies have evolved from strays, no
doubt.

> (Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the cats in the woods in your
> area are better off than some cats with some people, but that's a
> whole other discussion.)

I agree, especially when you think about collectors. *shudder*

> Please give those two rescues of yours a skritch from me. They are
> lucky to be safe and spoiled as the should be.

My boys are neutered, well vetted, loved bunches, and spoiled rotten!
And they totally deserve it. Scritches shall be administered. The
little one is suckling on my lip right now so he's getting the butt
massage currently. :)

--
Lynne

http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/

Cheryl
December 15th 06, 01:09 AM
On Thu 14 Dec 2006 06:43:32p, Phil P. wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav <news:[email protected]>:

>> I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated
>> cats,
>
> Actually, it is. That's why we use the term "revert to feral"
> for former pet cats that live in the wild for a long time
> without human interaction. Cats are naturally born wild- not
> domesticated. That's why human interaction is crucial during
> the kitten's first 2 to 7 weeks-

Someone needs to drill this into Barry's head about his 7 kittens.
They need human interaction in order to be friendly cats, and it
sounds like he isn't interested in being the socializer if he wants
to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his
posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more.

--
Cheryl

Lynne
December 15th 06, 01:10 AM
on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:43:32 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors
> and even in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very,
> *very* big.

That's why my friends leave the adults alone in the colony they discovered.
They pick off whatever kittens they can and find suckers like me to love
them forever, but that's it. That colony (those colonies) aren't
bothering anyone or anything where they are so there is no need to do
anything. I'm sure they are a well integrated part of the food chain now,
in both directions. They've been there at least 3 years (since I've had
Rudy), but I suspect much, much longer.

--
Lynne

http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/

Lynne
December 15th 06, 01:57 AM
on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:09:53 GMT, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Someone needs to drill this into Barry's head about his 7 kittens.
> They need human interaction in order to be friendly cats, and it
> sounds like he isn't interested in being the socializer if he wants
> to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his
> posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more.

repeated for emphasis. Every last word.

--
Lynne

http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/

Annie Wxill
December 15th 06, 02:59 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless
> since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with
> little human interaction. Homeless would be be more appropriate for a
> lost or
> abandoned cat.

Thank you for an informative and educational response.

I would defer to your assessment of Wendy's cats because you have so much
experience in that area.

For a lot of reasons, I wish there could be an easy way for a lay person
to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a homeless
cat that appears wild.

I've noticed that some people seem to think in all or nothing terms, i.e.,
the cat is either feral or tame, while, in fact there is a range of
behaviors that any individual cat may exhibit at any time depending on the
circumstance. These behaviors may not accurately depict the state of the
cat's socialization to humans.

As you state later in your post, some of your ferals will rub against your
legs and let you pet them, but they still are feral.

It appears to me that some people think homeless and feral are the same
thing. Wendy's question of what to call her cats, who are somewhere between
feral and tame, but closer to feral, is important. If we had a word or
words and better understanding for the middle ground, maybe fewer homeless
cats would be labeled feral and not automatically sentenced to death.

(Sigh) Then, as you mention later, there is also the problem of someone
mistaking a feral cat as closer to tame, and because of that expectation,
the person either being injured or disappointed in the relationship with
that cat.

One thing I have observed is that whenever there is a conflict between human
and animal, the animal is ultimately on the losing side.


>... An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and
> never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a
> squirrel or a lion or tiger. They aren't homeless. The only difference is
> size (and the amount of damage they can do to you).
>

I can see your point there. Any of these animals can be tamed to a degree,
but still be wild with potential for damage to the human who crosses them.

>... Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to Felis
>Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's
>definition. The only difference is one is socialized to humans and the
>other isn't. A feral cat is more of a "natural" cat than a domesticated
>pet cat.

I did not realize that. Thank you for setting me straight. I have always
been in awe of the relationship I have had with our various cats. Now I can
appreciate it even more when I get that snuggle and purr.

>What about the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of a lost
>domesticated pet cat?

I don't know about other countries, but I assume that the African Wildcat is
not indigenous to the U.S. Cats that arrived here were domestic cats
brought by humans. The very first to arrive probably were not the pampered
housecats we see here today. They would have been expected to earn their
keep. It's easy to see how descendants of those cats could move out and
become feral and survive.

I suspect that it is not so easy for today's pet cats to survive on their
own.

If that hypothetical lost domesticated pet cat lives long enough to be the
founder of a feral colony, it would be because that pet was not spayed or
neutered. That is why I say today's feral colonies are the result of human
neglect.

I'm sorry. Somehow, I seem to have lost the remainder of your post. Drat!

Well, I guess this one is long enough, anyway.

Annie

December 15th 06, 08:03 AM
In article >,
"Annie Wxill" > wrote:

> I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people.

I can introduce you to at least one feral cat who fully deserves that
fear.

This animal was so aggressively violent when caught in the have-a-hart,
it was intimidating just to put the cover over the trap. Never mind when
I released her.

When I first saw her, a gorgeous black ASH, I thought I had caught
either a wildcat or some other snarling, roaring critter. I swear to
God, she *roared* at me. It was utterly clear she really would do
everything she could to kill me, given half a chance.

The vet who anesthetized her for testing and spaying was a very brave
man. The cat was healthy and young (but fully grown, weighing in at just
under 14 pounds). She had no teats, so she wasn't a recent queen. She
remained violently ornery throughout her recovery, only eating when left
alone in her cage in the dark.

In a confrontation with a coyote or two, my money would have been on
this cat. I have never seen any "domestic" cat behave this way before or
since. But I have no doubt that there are others like her. People are
correct to be careful around these animals. They may be relatively
small, but they can do a good deal of damage if provoked.

--
Christmas, what other time of the year do you sit in front of a dead tree
and eat candy out of your socks?

Wendy
December 15th 06, 11:54 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:43:32 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors
>> and even in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very,
>> *very* big.
>
> That's why my friends leave the adults alone in the colony they
> discovered.
> They pick off whatever kittens they can and find suckers like me to love
> them forever, but that's it. That colony (those colonies) aren't
> bothering anyone or anything where they are so there is no need to do
> anything. I'm sure they are a well integrated part of the food chain now,
> in both directions. They've been there at least 3 years (since I've had
> Rudy), but I suspect much, much longer.
>
> --
> Lynne
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/

Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about
'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them.


W

Wendy
December 15th 06, 12:17 PM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]

>
> For a lot of reasons, I wish there could be an easy way for a lay person
> to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a
> homeless cat that appears wild.
>
> I've noticed that some people seem to think in all or nothing terms, i.e.,
> the cat is either feral or tame, while, in fact there is a range of
> behaviors that any individual cat may exhibit at any time depending on the
> circumstance. These behaviors may not accurately depict the state of the
> cat's socialization to humans.
>
>
> Annie
>
It would save both the rescuer and the cat a lot of grief it we could tell
ahead of time whether a cat would socialize or not. I've seen 'ferals' tame
and 'strays' go wild so it isn't easy to figure out what's best for the
cats.

We adopted out kittens over the summer who's mom was born outside a year and
change ago. She had lived outside all her life and was quite skittish around
people. A business owner had been feeding behind her store but that was all
the human contact this girl had. One day she boldly walked in the open door
of the store and took up residence. The only thing I can figure is she
sensed that this was a cat friendly person as so many cat are able to do and
came indoors to have a safe place to give birth. She's still living in the
store. She's been tested, spayed and gotten her shots and plops herself into
selected people's laps while still being untouchable to the majority. At
this point she has chosen the inside life and doesn't venture outdoors even
when the door is propped open for ventilation.

Who's to figure cats.

We try not to label the cats we offer for adoption. If the cat came from a
colony we'll just tell people that the cat was 'found' in the colony. With
the kittens there really isn't all that much difference between kittens born
to the 'feral' mom and those born outside to 'strays'. Either can be
challenging if you don't get them indoors early enough.

W

Lynne
December 15th 06, 12:48 PM
on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:54:37 GMT, "Wendy" > wrote:

> Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about
> 'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them.

nope. It's not financially feasible for them. They live in the poorest
county in Kentucky.

When I said 'suckers' I was being tongue-in-cheek. All of us who have
gotten kittens from them are thrilled with them.

--
Lynne

http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/

Wendy
December 15th 06, 02:35 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:54:37 GMT, "Wendy" > wrote:
>
>> Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about
>> 'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them.
>
> nope. It's not financially feasible for them. They live in the poorest
> county in Kentucky.
>
> When I said 'suckers' I was being tongue-in-cheek. All of us who have
> gotten kittens from them are thrilled with them.
>
> --
> Lynne
>
Maybe they could see if there's a rescue group that could help them out some
or look for vouchers online.

Hey we're all suckers when it comes to cats.

W

Annie Wxill
December 15th 06, 04:27 PM
> wrote in message
...
....
....> When I first saw her, a gorgeous black ASH, I thought I had caught
either a wildcat or some other snarling, roaring critter. I swear to God,
she *roared* at me. It was utterly clear she really would do everything she
could to kill me, given half a chance.
>
> The vet who anesthetized her for testing and spaying was a very brave

Hi Bearclaw,

This sounds exactly like the cat that had a litter of kittens in my
daughter's barn. My daughter was able to get the kittens before she trapped
the mother cat. My daughter had not seen the mother cat or the kittens
before her dog discovered the kittens in the grass just outside the barn.

The kittens were about 6-7 weeks old and tamed up within a week.


My daughter said that when she trapped the mother cat, the cat had such a
look of evil in her eyes that it was eerie.

My daughter had made arrangements to take the cat to the vet to be spayed
and vaccinated prior to trapping her, The vet had been so impressed with
how sweet the kittens turned out, and knowing that my daughter had limited
income, that he offered to spay the mother cat for free.

Well, let's just say that afterwards the vet was glad to give this cat back
to my daughter, and my daughter released the cat to go back to the barn,

I think any cat can inflict serious damage, but some are more motivated to
do so than others.

Annie

Annie Wxill
December 15th 06, 05:13 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
....
> We try not to label the cats we offer for adoption. If the cat came from a
> colony we'll just tell people that the cat was 'found' in the colony. With
> the kittens there really isn't all that much difference between kittens
> born to the 'feral' mom and those born outside to 'strays'. Either can be
> challenging if you don't get them indoors early enough.
> W
Hi Wendy,
I think that is a good way to handle it, especially with kittens, Labels
can create expectations that turn out to be wrong. Cats, as you say, have
their own way of doing things and are not particularly predictable by our
way of thinking.

I will say that Rosie, who is purring on my lab now and trying to get my
attention off the computer was born and lived the first 7 months of her
life homeless and roaming the neighborhood.

She was wild, but when I finally got a glimpse of her sweet face peering out
at me from a bush in the twilight, she stole my heart. To make a long story
short, I trapped her, and vetted her, and it took a couple of months before
she felt comfortable enough to touch me and then let me touch her. She
pretty much lived on a closet shelf for a year, but came down to eat and use
the box and to get to know us,

Little by little she came around. Even when she was scared at first, she
never showed any sign of aggression or intent to hurt us.

We didn't know what we were doing, but we followed her lead. It took a
long time, and now she has no indication that she'd ever been anything but a
pampered companion. It was worth every minute.

Bless you for your rescue work. I wish you great success.

Annie

Phil P.
December 17th 06, 07:31 AM
> wrote in message
...
>
> This animal was so aggressively violent when caught in the have-a-hart,
> it was intimidating just to put the cover over the trap. Never mind when
> I released her.

Sounds like a normal feral cat.

Phil P.
December 17th 06, 07:31 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >> >
> >> > "Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >
> > I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and
> > even
> > in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, *very* big.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time.
> >
> > I try to do the best thing for each particular cat with which I come in
> > contact. Sometimes, the best thing doesn't seem like the right thing.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
>
> And sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We brought
in
> a pregnant 'stray' last spring. The woman who called us begged and begged
> that we help this girl because of the horrible conditions the cats were
> living in. So we brought her in to have her kittens. She was friendly
until
> she delivered the babies and then turned into kujo-kitty. The foster mom
had
> been keeping them in her downstairs bathroom and wasn't able to use it for
> weeks because of the cat. She settled down some but still is not a good
> candidate for adoption. Problem now is what to do with her. She can't go
> back to where she came from and she isn't happy inside.
>
> W

Relocating a feral is a major project that takes a few weeks. Its also
traumatic for the cat. What was wrong with her former turf?

Good luck-- you're gonna need it

Phil

Phil P.
December 17th 06, 07:32 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:48:03 GMT, "Annie Wxill"
> > wrote:
>
> > Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but
> > in
> > general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time.
> > Those living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other
> > care) from human caretakers. The environment in which they live will
> > not fully support them because they may be wild, but they are not
> > really "in the wild."
>
> both of my current cats were found living in a feral colony in the woods,
> away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony
> (colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions,

Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a very
small fraction are in managed colonies- I'd say they sure are thriving on
their own!

Phil.

Phil P.
December 17th 06, 07:39 AM
"Cheryl" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu 14 Dec 2006 06:43:32p, Phil P. wrote in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav <news:[email protected]>:
>
> >> I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated
> >> cats,
> >
> > Actually, it is. That's why we use the term "revert to feral"
> > for former pet cats that live in the wild for a long time
> > without human interaction. Cats are naturally born wild- not
> > domesticated. That's why human interaction is crucial during
> > the kitten's first 2 to 7 weeks-
>
> Someone needs to drill this into Barry's head about his 7 kittens.
> They need human interaction in order to be friendly cats, and it
> sounds like he isn't interested in being the socializer if he wants
> to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his
> posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more.
>
> --
> Cheryl

He's incapable of being educated and is just a waste of space, time, energy,
oxygen, and DNA. . He's like a bad rash- the more you scratch it the worse
it gets. If you ignore it and leave it alone it will go away.

Phil P.
December 17th 06, 07:43 AM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless
> > since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with
> > little human interaction. Homeless would be be more appropriate for a
> > lost or
> > abandoned cat.
>
> Thank you for an informative and educational response.
>
> I would defer to your assessment of Wendy's cats because you have so much
> experience in that area.
>
> For a lot of reasons, I wish there could be an easy way for a lay person
> to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a
homeless
> cat that appears wild.

How about "frightened homeless"- which is probably the most accurate
description.

They're fairly easy to differentiate out of the trap. A feral will usually
disappear as soon as she sees you. A frightened homeless/stray/lost cat
will usually just back away- staying just out of reach. If you don't try to
approach her, she might gradually come closer. In the trap is another
story.



>
> I've noticed that some people seem to think in all or nothing terms, i.e.,
> the cat is either feral or tame, while, in fact there is a range of
> behaviors that any individual cat may exhibit at any time depending on the
> circumstance. These behaviors may not accurately depict the state of the
> cat's socialization to humans.


Absotively. This is especially true for cats in shelters and adoption
centers where all the qualities that make them great companions work against
them. For instance, a very sweet and sensitive cat can become very
defensive from all the strange noises and people in the store. Other than
our shelter, only one out of the five stores in which we have adoption
centers has a quiet office we can use *sometimes* for adoptions.


>
> As you state later in your post, some of your ferals will rub against your
> legs and let you pet them, but they still are feral.


This is not really unusual. A lot of colony caretakers will tell you the
same thing happens with some of their cats. Every once in awhile, you will
come across a cat in a colony that's amenable to tamming- but these cats are
few and far between and usually a recently displaced pet.

>
> It appears to me that some people think homeless and feral are the same
> thing.


That's because some people just don't understand ferals are closer to
wildlife- and not homeless pet cats.


Wendy's question of what to call her cats, who are somewhere between
> feral and tame, but closer to feral, is important. If we had a word or
> words and better understanding for the middle ground, maybe fewer homeless
> cats would be labeled feral and not automatically sentenced to death.


Sadly, its the "good Samaritans" that hurt the ferals the most. They think
they're helping the cats by trapping them and taking them to a shelter or
calling AC. If they're not TNR'ing the best thing they can do for the cats
is leave them the hell alone!


>
> (Sigh) Then, as you mention later, there is also the problem of someone
> mistaking a feral cat as closer to tame, and because of that expectation,
> the person either being injured or disappointed in the relationship with
> that cat.

OTOH, some people think they can "convert" a feral by smothering the cat
with affection. They usually end up in the hospital and the cat usually ends
up losing his head (literally). The same situation can happen with shelter
cats if the match isn't right.

> One thing I have observed is that whenever there is a conflict between
human
> and animal, the animal is ultimately on the losing side.


That's why they need us to stand up for them.



> >... An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and
> > never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a
> > squirrel or a lion or tiger. They aren't homeless. The only difference
is
> > size (and the amount of damage they can do to you).
> >
>
> I can see your point there. Any of these animals can be tamed to a
degree,
> but still be wild with potential for damage to the human who crosses them.


Most ferals can never be tamed. The closest they'll come to being tamed is
spending their lives hiding under the bed and miserable.


>
> >... Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to Felis
> >Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's
> >definition. The only difference is one is socialized to humans and the
> >other isn't. A feral cat is more of a "natural" cat than a domesticated
> >pet cat.
>
> I did not realize that. Thank you for setting me straight. I have
always
> been in awe of the relationship I have had with our various cats. Now I
can
> appreciate it even more when I get that snuggle and purr.
>
> >What about the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of a lost
> >domesticated pet cat?
>
> I don't know about other countries, but I assume that the African Wildcat
is
> not indigenous to the U.S.

Yes. The African Wildcat is not indigenous to the U.S- its from Africa. Cats
in the US and most of the world- are considered a subspecies of the African
Wildcat - Felis silvestris catus a/k/a Felis silvestris domesticus.
They're genetically identical to the African Wildcat- although some might be
a mix of FS Lybica and Felis Chaus. The African Wildcat has the most
docile temperament of all the Felis species.


Cats that arrived here were domestic cats
> brought by humans. The very first to arrive probably were not the pampered
> housecats we see here today. They would have been expected to earn their
> keep. It's easy to see how descendants of those cats could move out and
> become feral and survive.

Actually, the first cats in the US were probably stowaways on ships. In the
early days of shipping, insurance companies wouldn't insure shipments of
grain if the ships didn't have cats onboard to protect the grain shipments
from rats and mice.-- Many of the cats jumped ship and followed the food.
True story.

It ****es me off when fanatical bird groups call cats an "invasive species".
That's like inviting a guest to your home and then having them arrested for
trespassing!


>
> I suspect that it is not so easy for today's pet cats to survive on their
> own.

A cat that spent her entire life indoors would have a rough time surviving
on her own.


>
> If that hypothetical lost domesticated pet cat lives long enough to be the
> founder of a feral colony, it would be because that pet was not spayed or
> neutered. That is why I say today's feral colonies are the result of
human
> neglect.

Not only feral colonies- but cats in shelters, too. For every cat that dies
in a shelter or outside, someone, somewhere is responsible for the death.


Phil

Wendy
December 17th 06, 11:16 AM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>>
>> And sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We brought
> in
>> a pregnant 'stray' last spring. The woman who called us begged and begged
>> that we help this girl because of the horrible conditions the cats were
>> living in. So we brought her in to have her kittens. She was friendly
> until
>> she delivered the babies and then turned into kujo-kitty. The foster mom
> had
>> been keeping them in her downstairs bathroom and wasn't able to use it
>> for
>> weeks because of the cat. She settled down some but still is not a good
>> candidate for adoption. Problem now is what to do with her. She can't go
>> back to where she came from and she isn't happy inside.
>>
>> W
>
> Relocating a feral is a major project that takes a few weeks. Its also
> traumatic for the cat. What was wrong with her former turf?
>
> Good luck-- you're gonna need it
>
> Phil
>


I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one who
spoke with the woman who brought this cat in but my understanding is the
neighbors don't want them, there isn't a feeder and a lot of the cats there
were dying from I don't know what. It's a high traffic area too. I'll have
to see if I can get specifics. I think sometimes people garnish the truth to
make the cat's circumstances sound more dire. She's been out of that
location for 9 months now though. Would it be possible ... the right thing
.... to return her to her former stomping grounds at this point and at this
time of year?

What would someone have to do to successfully relocate a cat?

W

Annie Wxill
December 17th 06, 11:40 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
....
> Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a
> very
> small fraction are in managed colonies- I'd say they sure are thriving on
> their own!
> Phil.
>
Hi Phil,

The key wod, of course, is feral.

I agree with your comment in another post that well-meaning people who do
not know what they are doing should not trap cats in a colony and drop them
off at a "shelter" in hopes that they will be adopted. (I put quotes around
the word shelter because it is unlikely to provide shelter for and more
likely to be a death sentence for such a cat.)

(But, playing the devil's advocate) On the other hand, some people probably
would take your statement above as an excuse to dump an unwanted housecat
out in the woods. I know there are people who believe that any cat can
manage quite well with its own devices. I'm sure the local coyotes are
happy to prove them wrong.

Regards,
Annie

Phil P.
December 18th 06, 06:26 AM
"Annie Wxill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> ...
> > Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a
> > very
> > small fraction are in managed colonies- I'd say they sure are thriving
on
> > their own!
> > Phil.
> >
> Hi Phil,
>
> The key wod, of course, is feral.
>
> I agree with your comment in another post that well-meaning people who do
> not know what they are doing should not trap cats in a colony and drop
them
> off at a "shelter" in hopes that they will be adopted. (I put quotes
around
> the word shelter because it is unlikely to provide shelter for and more
> likely to be a death sentence for such a cat.)

If the "Good Samaritans" call AC to trap them- the cats never even make it
to the shelter. They're killed in the back of the AC truck. If they really
want to help the cats- don't "help" them.


>
> (But, playing the devil's advocate) On the other hand, some people
probably
> would take your statement above as an excuse to dump an unwanted housecat
> out in the woods.

People sometimes dump their pet cats near our colonies because they know the
colonies are provided with food and shelters and medical care- it makes them
feel less guilty about dumping their cats. If we're lucky, we can trap them
before the colony runs them off. We can usually tell they were dumped pets
because after they're trapped and had some time to settle down they're
friendly. But some are just as frantic as ferals.


I know there are people who believe that any cat can
> manage quite well with its own devices. I'm sure the local coyotes are
> happy to prove them wrong.

Cars are the greatest danger to pet cats because they aren't streetwise.
Most pet cats don't live long enough to become streetwise.

Phil

Phil P.
December 18th 06, 06:33 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...

>
> I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one who
> spoke with the woman who brought this cat in but my understanding is the
> neighbors don't want them, there isn't a feeder and a lot of the cats
there
> were dying from I don't know what. It's a high traffic area too. I'll have
> to see if I can get specifics. I think sometimes people garnish the truth
to
> make the cat's circumstances sound more dire. She's been out of that
> location for 9 months now though. Would it be possible ... the right thing
> ... to return her to her former stomping grounds at this point and at this
> time of year?

Definitely not after 9 months. She lost her place in the colony. You would
have to treat her return like a relocation. If the area really is that bad,
I would try to relocate her along with a least one other cat from her colony
into another colony someplace else-- easier said than done.
>
> What would someone have to do to successfully relocate a cat?

You'd have to keep the cat in a large enclosure on her new turf for a few
weeks until she settles in- otherwise she'll run away and try to find her
way back to her original turf as soon as you release her. This is very
dangerous- she'll be lost in unfamiliar territory and won't know the dangers
of the area or the safe places to hide. Relocating another colony cat with
her will make the process less traumatic. A farm is the best bet- There
aren't many other places where you can set up an enclosure without problems.

Relocating a feral is strictly a last resort.

Btw, I figured out how to make a folding drop trap- some of our trappers
have small cars. Its still 36" long x 16" high but only 8" wide folded:

http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-folded.jpg

http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg

Wendy
December 18th 06, 12:25 PM
"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one
>> who
>> spoke with the woman who brought this cat in but my understanding is the
>> neighbors don't want them, there isn't a feeder and a lot of the cats
> there
>> were dying from I don't know what. It's a high traffic area too. I'll
>> have
>> to see if I can get specifics. I think sometimes people garnish the truth
> to
>> make the cat's circumstances sound more dire. She's been out of that
>> location for 9 months now though. Would it be possible ... the right
>> thing
>> ... to return her to her former stomping grounds at this point and at
>> this
>> time of year?
>
> Definitely not after 9 months. She lost her place in the colony. You
> would
> have to treat her return like a relocation. If the area really is that
> bad,
> I would try to relocate her along with a least one other cat from her
> colony
> into another colony someplace else-- easier said than done.
>>
>> What would someone have to do to successfully relocate a cat?
>
> You'd have to keep the cat in a large enclosure on her new turf for a few
> weeks until she settles in- otherwise she'll run away and try to find her
> way back to her original turf as soon as you release her. This is very
> dangerous- she'll be lost in unfamiliar territory and won't know the
> dangers
> of the area or the safe places to hide. Relocating another colony cat
> with
> her will make the process less traumatic. A farm is the best bet- There
> aren't many other places where you can set up an enclosure without
> problems.
>
> Relocating a feral is strictly a last resort.
>
> Btw, I figured out how to make a folding drop trap- some of our trappers
> have small cars. Its still 36" long x 16" high but only 8" wide folded:
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-folded.jpg
>
> http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg
>
>
cool beans! What kind of 'netting' did you use?

As for the farm/barn homes, they seem to be an urban legend around here at
least. We've been looking for a suitable place to locate two cats we have
for over 2 years now. They have been living in a volunteer's (attached)
garage in the mean time. Most of the horse farms are overrun with cats and
they are calling us to get rid of their overflow (nobody seems to spay or
neuter their barn cats). We had someone else interested in a barn cat and it
looked promising until he told us that his previous barn cat had been killed
by his resident fox. :o( Not the place for a cat with an attitude but no
'street smarts'.

Another question. What's the longest you can keep a cat away from it's
original stomping ground and still be able to return it successfully? For
instance is the time necessary to have a mom come in pregnant, have her
kittens and get them weaned to long?

W

Phil P.
December 19th 06, 10:39 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Phil P." > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-folded.jpg
> >
> > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg
> >
> >
> cool beans! What kind of 'netting' did you use?

Safety netting- 256 lbs/strand tensile strength, 4 strands per thread. Each
thread has over 1000 lbs bursting strength. The net was made to to my
specifications but the rope border took up too much slack and made the net
fit too tight. I'm having another net made a little larger to offset the
rope border. If it works out I'll order a few dozen.

>
> Another question. What's the longest you can keep a cat away from it's
> original stomping ground and still be able to return it successfully?

Its best to get the cat back to the colony as soon as possible- no more than
a few days.


For
> instance is the time necessary to have a mom come in pregnant, have her
> kittens and get them weaned to long?

Yes- 3-4 weeks is too long. The best thing to do is abort the pregnancy
before the queen reaches her third trimester. If she's already in her third
trimester the kittens are viable so you can't abort- you would be actually
killing the kittens. Let her have the kittens and nurse them for a few
days, neuter her and after she recovers, release her. The kittens will
receive all the maternal antibodies they're going to get within the first
18-24 hours. You'll have to bottle feed the kittens until they can eat
solid food- 3-4 weeks. Handle the kits as much as possible after the first 2
weeks and try to keep them together until they're at least 12 weeks old.

Phil