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December 13th 06, 01:42 AM
HOWEDY Mickee,

WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
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WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
Forums And Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research
Laboratory <{); ~ ) >

I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

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~ ) >

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Mickee wrote:
> I have a 7 year old daschund and 7 month old kitties
> and t hey refuse to live peacfully. HELP!!!

Oh? You want HEELP like THIS?:

Subject: Re: Introducing New Dog to Household Cats

From: Melinda Shore
Date: Tues, Apr 19 2005 8:54 am
Email: (Melinda Shore)

sighthounds & siberians > wrote:

> I was going to ask how cat things were coming
> with Crow and Eclipse.

Not great! I had been just closing off the upstairs bedroom
(a baby gate with the door fixed ajar about six inches keeps
the dogs out better than you'd expect), but the cats like to
hide in the wall of the linen closet (gotta love these old
houses!) when they're nervous and Crow and Eclipse tore
apart the linen closet to try to get to them. That's when I
closed off the upstairs entirely.

They're also a bad influence on Cinder, who started out
thinking of the cats as dinner but who had learned to live
with them in peace until her sisters arrived.

I think it's possible but, frankly, improbable that they're
eventually going to be safe with the cats.

MALINDA.
---------

> Can they ever be socialized to live in harmony?

Yeah. You can train them to be PALS in WON DAY if
you study your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse
Training Method Manual <{}'; ~ ) >

OR, when HEEL FREEZES OVER if you follow the
ADVICE of the EXXXPERTS we got here abHOWETS.

LIKE THIS:

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," Melanie Lee Chang *

Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

--------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

From: sighthounds etc. >
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:08:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Melinda/Sally

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:45:21 GMT, Suja > wrote:
>Gwen Watson wrote:
>> The family is giving the dog up because apparently
>> he killed the next door neighbors cat. Out of respect
>> to the next door neighbors these people have chosen
>> to find new home for their malamute. It is really
>> very sad story they have told. For one IMO it
>> is the neighbors fault that their cat got into Miko's
>> yard and was killed.

> I don't get it. How is it the dog's fault that a furry critter that got
> into his yard got killed? If I were in these people's shoes, I would
> very politely request that the neighbors keep their animals off my
> property, but that's just me.

That's what I would do too. There have been a number of cats killed
here in our yard, by sighthounds or Siberians or a combination of the
above. They are apparently strays (our neighbor two doors down feeds
the stray cats, putting the food in the yard between us, what a good
idea). I don't like it at all, as we love cats and have indoor cats
(which our dogs are fine with), but I can't prevent it and it's not
our fault or our dogs' fault.

Same situation with Sibes, but even more people
want those pretty fluffy dogs with blue eyes.

Sally Hennessey

--------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

From: sighthounds & siberians >
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:57:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Fear aggression

While most of my dogs are well-behaved when left
alone unconfined, my Whippets are not, and it is
simply not possible to sufficiently proof' my home
from dogs that can jump baby gates and get onto
tables and counters when no one is home.

No, of course they don't do that when we're
home, but they sure do when we're gone.

They aren't really destructive, though my female that enjoys
chewing up plastic, but they're very food oriented, and their
definition of food differs from ours, so they're crated for
their own protection. I've found crate training to be very
useful when a dog is ill or injured and needs to be confined
for medical purposes; and this happens more often than you
might think.

I hate to spoil the image of cruel Americans locking up their
dogs in boxes all day, but, well, it's BS, so there you go.

To the OP: it's very difficult to say what's going on with
your dog without observing him. I've had several very fearful
dogs, one of which had some minor fear aggression when she felt
absolutely trapped, but this resolved on its own as she became
more confident.

If there are specific things which trigger Sunny's fear aggression,
you could work on desensitizing her to those things, but in general,
I think you need either a behaviorist or a very good trainer who
deals with aggression problems.

Mustang Sally

--------------------

LIKE THIS:

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:32:52 -0400
10 From: - view profile
Date: Tues, Apr 19 2005 2:05 am
Email:

Hi, Chris!

What a beautiful and sweet dog Chaos is! I wish you could adopt him.

My experience with dogs is limited to two: two dogs, who are getting
along wonderfully with each other and with two cats. Especially my 18
months old male (not neutered) dog who is an Amstaff mix. He loves
them, lets them eat from his bowl waiting patiently as the cats pick
the best pieces, sleeps with the cats, plays with the cats, takes their

heads or their paws into his mouth - and never hurts them, despite the
fact that he has very strong jaws and very sharp teeth. The cats and
the dogs are always together, even when we are not at home. Nobody is
ever crated and nobody is ever leashed, while they are at home. Oh, and

we live in an apartment, too.

I don't know if the fact that they are getting on so well is because
Amstaff mixes are so sweet with cats (my female dog, though not an
Amstaff mix, is an exceptional dog, she is the best creature that ever
was, so there's no wonder about her), but I'm inclined to believe that
the "Wits' End Dog Training Manual" did have something to do with it,
too. :-) The method and its author are not exactly popular around
here, but everything that Jerry says in his manual and in his posts has

proved to be true for my two dogs. I do hope that, before deciding to
killfile Jerry as the majority of the regulars advise the newcomers to
do, you'd read the manual and make up your mind for yourself if the
method is worth trying or not; for me, it was the best thing that I
could wish for - no violence at all, very easy to apply, and best of
all, always gives wonderful results.

Lucy

----------------------

BUT NOT LIKE THIS:

11 From: Melinda Shore
Date: Tues, Apr 19 2005 6:23 am
Email: (Melinda Shore)
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior

In article . com>,

> wrote:
> The method and its author are not exactly popular around
> here, but everything that Jerry says in his manual and in his posts has
> proved to be true for my two dogs.

If you tried Jerry's stuff with a dog with a very high prey
drive, you'd end up with a dead cat. Keeping a dog that
doesn't want to kill a cat from killing a cat is not a
Nobel-level accomplishment.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

OR LIKE THIS:

12 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Tues, Apr 19 2005 7:25 am
Email: sighthounds & siberians >
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior

On 19 Apr 2005 07:23:00 -0400, (Melinda Shore) wrote:
>In article . com>,
> > wrote:
>> The method and its author are not exactly popular around
>> here, but everything that Jerry says in his manual and in his posts has
>> proved to be true for my two dogs.

> If you tried Jerry's stuff with a dog with a very high prey
> drive, you'd end up with a dead cat. Keeping a dog that
> doesn't want to kill a cat from killing a cat is not a
> Nobel-level accomplishment.

That's for sure. Based on experience with high-prey Siberian Huskies
and ex-racing Greyhounds, I'd say that the majority of dogs are fine
with cats from the start (some ignore them, some like them and
interact with them). Many more can be trained to live peacefully with
them, and a smaller number can never be trusted alone with them. Prey
drive is hard-wired, and what you're doing with a really high prey
drive dog is trying to rewire the dog.

Mustang Sally

OR LIKE THIS:

295 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Tues, Apr 19 2005 8:32 pm
Email: sighthounds & siberians >

On 19 Apr 2005 11:27:29 -0700, wrote:
>shelly wrote:
>> on 2005-04-19 at 00:05 > wrote:
>> > very easy to apply, and best of all, always gives wonderful
>> > results.
>
>> that's untrue. one of his favorite methods (using a shake can
>> as positive punishment) does not work with either of my dogs.
>> one ignores it (he's not bothered by loud, sudden noises) and
>> the other loses all control of her bowels and bladder when
>> startled by sudden noises/movement. so, like most training
>> tools, the shake can may vary from benignly ineffective to
>> downright abusive, depending on the situation.

> This is nothing at all like what Jerry says. Really, shelly,
> why not READ the manual?

I've read the thing (I refuse to call it a manual), and I can tell
you, based on experience with high prey breeds, that "good boy" and
"good girl" are not particularly useful when redirecting high prey
drive.

Why would I want to try different methods -
- some of which don't make sense to me -

Mustang Sally

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey > wrote in message
...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" > wrote in message
...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

> The dog would kill the cats if he could get to them and has to be
> crated while inside. Is there any way to get him to be civil towards
> the kitties?

Yeah. Should take you WON DAY to train your dogs
an kats to be PALS, provided you DO EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE the
EXXXPERTS you're askin for advice do it <{}'; ~ ) >

> HELP, I am going nuts!!!!

Well then, you're in EXXXCELLENT company!:

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos )
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:[email protected]>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true.

In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not make those calls.

Which one is it?

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

------------------------------*-----------

> Mickee

Here's the TYPICAL RESULTS of EXXXPERT DOG TRAINERS:

Re: Houston, we have a problem - dogs & cats
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:07:34 GMT,
"Suja" > wrote:
>
> I went back and re-read the post where you met him. Didn't say
> anywhere that you saw his interactions with cats. Do you know
> that he has gotten along with cats before?

I was told he got along with cats, but I did not observe this myself.

Today I learned that the cats he has been around are barn cats and
they
have never been indoors with him. I'm not convinced he had any
interaction with them at all, knowing barn cats. I guess I should
have
been more specific? I was clear that my cats are indoor cats and that

one is a tiny kitten. I also stated that we sleep in the bed with my
dog
and the cats. I'm honestly not sure what else I could have said.
Obviously I should have asked more in depth questions.

Hindsite is a bitch.

One of my primary requirements in a dog is one who has been around
cats
and who is disinterested in them. I made this clear up front and we
discussed this in respect to Bailey. Bailey was extremely aggressive
towards them. It scared me. Bailey is now back at the rescue. I
cried
the whole way back with him, because he is perfect in every other way
(really amazing, actually), but our cats are as important to us as are

our dogs.

When I talked to the director of the rescue, she said she would have
beaten him for that behavior. That's not my style at all, and I can't

imagine that would be a good foundation for trusting, secure
relationship
for Bailey.

I feel like I failed him. My daughter hates me. It doesn't help that

her hamster died while she was on her trip and I had to tell her
tonight.

Oh, and I ate the $300 adoption fee. Despite that, I donated some of
the
things I bought for Bailey to the rescue. We're going to take a break

from looking for a dog. I'm thinking of going to the shelter and
getting
a mutt puppy instead of an adult... at least any behavioral problems
would be of my own doing. Judging by how Roxy behaves, it's nothing I

couldn't live with.

*sigh*

Lynne