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jstfrths
January 10th 07, 11:13 PM
You've probably heard of cats that use the toilet just like their
people do. How is this accomplished?

Step 1: Move the litter pan into the bathroom.

Step 2: Move the litter pan closer and closer to the toilet, until it
is right next to it.

Step 3: Raise the litter pan higher and higher on books or bricks until
it is level with the toilet seat.

Step 4: Move the litter pan on top of the toilet seat.

Step 5: Replace the litter pan with a sheet of plastic taped to the
toilet seat. Cover the middle of the plastic with kitty litter.

Step 6: Retape plastic onto the seat such that it sags lower and lower
into the bowl.

Step 7: Remove the plastic. Of course, all these steps should be done
gradually, getting the kitty cat completely comfortable with each new
situation before going to the next. It helps if you have two or more
bathrooms in your house!

- from www.intellectual-playground.com

Lynne
January 10th 07, 11:40 PM
on Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:13:45 GMT, "jstfrths" > wrote:

> Step 4: Move the litter pan on top of the toilet seat.

I would add to this: Duct tape the litter pan to the toilet. Trust me on
this.

I had Rudy very nearly toilet trained, but had to stop the process when I
temporarily lost my second toilet due to remodeling. Once the third
bathroom is in, I'm going to start again.

Some cats are very upset by having their litter pans moved, though, and for
those cats, I recommend a very, very, VERY slow transition. My Rudy has
always been super flexible about his litter box, so it was easy.

--
Lynne

Lynne
January 10th 07, 11:44 PM
on Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:13:45 GMT, "jstfrths" > wrote:

> Step 5: Replace the litter pan with a sheet of plastic taped to the
> toilet seat. Cover the middle of the plastic with kitty litter.

I should have read ahead. I used a disposable roasting pan for these
steps, gradually cutting a larger and larger hole in the center. I
wouldn't trust a sheet of plastic to hold up my fat cat. Even the roasting
pan wasn't great for support, so some might want to use something sturdier.
There is a product made just for toilet training cats that you can buy on-
line. Do a Google search. It is made of sturdy plastic and has different
inserts to be used as the process goes forward.

I also used a flushable litter in the bottom of the roasting pan so it was
safe once I started. Just a teeny bit for a while, and then none.

--
Lynne

bookie
January 11th 07, 01:13 AM
jstfrths wrote:
> You've probably heard of cats that use the toilet just like their
> people do. How is this accomplished?
>
> Step 1: Move the litter pan into the bathroom.
>
> Step 2: Move the litter pan closer and closer to the toilet, until it
> is right next to it.
>
> Step 3: Raise the litter pan higher and higher on books or bricks until
> it is level with the toilet seat.
>
> Step 4: Move the litter pan on top of the toilet seat.
>
> Step 5: Replace the litter pan with a sheet of plastic taped to the
> toilet seat. Cover the middle of the plastic with kitty litter.
>
> Step 6: Retape plastic onto the seat such that it sags lower and lower
> into the bowl.
>
> Step 7: Remove the plastic. Of course, all these steps should be done
> gradually, getting the kitty cat completely comfortable with each new
> situation before going to the next. It helps if you have two or more
> bathrooms in your house!
>
> - from www.intellectual-playground.com

there si something on the market from an australian company (I believe)
called "doogie's litter kwitter" which has these inserts which fit into
the loo seat or something. anyway you can get them from
www.petplanet.co.uk and it comes with a training DVD and instruction
booklet.

are you inthe states? not sure if this company will post it out to you
but you could try them, personally I find the whole thing a bit odd
especially as kittens will poo and bury things in dirt instinctually,
kind of goes against the grain for me

Claude V. Lucas
January 11th 07, 02:50 AM
http://www.mingusmingusmingus.com/Mingus/cat_training.html

sheelagh
January 11th 07, 02:59 AM
bookie wrote:
> jstfrths wrote:
> > You've probably heard of cats that use the toilet just like their
> > people do. How is this accomplished?
> >
> > Step 1: Move the litter pan into the bathroom.
> >
> > Step 2: Move the litter pan closer and closer to the toilet, until it
> > is right next to it.
> >
> > Step 3: Raise the litter pan higher and higher on books or bricks until
> > it is level with the toilet seat.
> >
> > Step 4: Move the litter pan on top of the toilet seat.
> >
> > Step 5: Replace the litter pan with a sheet of plastic taped to the
> > toilet seat. Cover the middle of the plastic with kitty litter.
> >
> > Step 6: Retape plastic onto the seat such that it sags lower and lower
> > into the bowl.
> >
> > Step 7: Remove the plastic. Of course, all these steps should be done
> > gradually, getting the kitty cat completely comfortable with each new
> > situation before going to the next. It helps if you have two or more
> > bathrooms in your house!
> >
> > - from www.intellectual-playground.com
>
> there si something on the market from an australian company (I believe)
> called "doogie's litter kwitter" which has these inserts which fit into
> the loo seat or something. anyway you can get them from
> www.petplanet.co.uk and it comes with a training DVD and instruction
> booklet.
>
> are you inthe states? not sure if this company will post it out to you
> but you could try them, personally I find the whole thing a bit odd
> especially as kittens will poo and bury things in dirt instinctually,
> kind of goes against the grain for me

I know that it is possible, because a woman who lives next door to my
mother, has a cat that uses her loo too, but it is a bit odd,isn't it?
I can see why people would prefer they do...But I feel it must be a
little unatural for the cat?
I would hate it if someone stuck me on a cat litter & said,."Do It"!
Lol..
S:o)

Lynne
January 11th 07, 04:43 AM
on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:09:26 GMT, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Toilet training a cat is completely unnatural, and can cause
> problems down the road. While you'd be able to see if there is
> blood or clumps in the urine (unless your cat has mastered
> flushing) you wouldn't be able to tell if you do see blood, if it
> came from urine or feces if both are in the toilet when you flush
> after him.

It would actually be easier to collect stool and/or urine with a toilet
trained cat. Simply put something under the lid for collection. You
could even get a sterile urine catch if you use a sterile container, so
I'd have to say that's not a compelling argument against toilet training.

> Then there are problems that can arise when kitty gets
> older and less agile. It will be that much harder for him to
> transition to a litterbox in his senior years.
>
> I'm against trying to toilet train a cat. Unnatural.

Going in a relatively teeny box indoors with clumping litter isn't
exactly natural, either--not compared to the great outdoors--but cats
have adapted just fine. I understand where you are coming from, but I
don't think it's a big deal at all. Certainly if a cat exhibited
behavioral problems related to elimination, well then that would be a
good indicator it's not an option for that particular cat. If he or she
doesn't, I'd say it is fine. A nice clean toilet that can be flushed has
to smell a heck of a lot better than even the most well kept litter box,
too. Not only that, it's much more environmentally friendly than
disposing of litter and/or feces in landfills, and that is _very_
important to me.

If I am able to successfully train both boys to use the toilet then of
course I will make accomodations when they are older, with either a ramp
or stairs to the commode, or a toddler potty. So I still don't see any
downsides. And before anyone argues that cats like to bury their waste,
I'd like to point out that not all of them do. We get a lot of posts
here complaining about that, in fact. My Rudy buries his, but only very
lightly. He also gets out of the pan and scratches all around it. He
can do the same with a toilet, and did when he was using it. I think
toilet training a cat is brilliant! I just hope Levi takes to it as well
as Rudy did.

--
Lynne

Lynne
January 11th 07, 05:22 AM
on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:58:25 GMT, Cheryl >
wrote:

> Hmm. You have a point there. Every time I see posts about how to
> get a sterile catch, I wonder. One time I put gravel in a clean
> litterbox at the request of a vet, but couldn't get kitty to go in
> it. For that I would leave it up to the vet. If they have to cath
> to get it, I guess it would be better than me trying to catch it
> with a shy-bladder kitty. Could be less stressful to catch it in
> saran wrap. But I just can't see my cats climbing up there to do
> their business.

I always left my cat, Calvin at the vet for sterile urine catches. It
didn't phase him and I'm lazy that way. It sure would be easier to be
able to get it on the pot, though.

> But what if your cat didn't display an aversion to using the toilet
> until way after you trained him? They do this, you know. They do a
> 180 on us all the time.

Yep, it happens with litter boxes, too. I honestly think you have to
evaluate the temperament of the individual cat before even considering
trying something like this. Some cats can't handle any changes
whatsoever, other cats are very easy going. Most are in between.

If a toilet trained cat started showing an aversion to using the toilet,
I'd try a number of things, including putting a litter box right next to
the toilet at toilet level for starters, and additional litter boxes in
other locations. It would depend on what the cat was actually doing,
though. I'd want to rule out medical issues first, of course.

> What if you have multiple cats, and some
> won't use the toilet, and some do, and what if the one that does
> decides to use the litterbox and never goes back to the toilet? Do
> you try to re-train or do you decide it was an anomoly that he was
> trained in the first place? My cats are extremely interested in
> the toilet, and do believe they know what it's for, but I don't
> think they'd use it consistently because they can't dig.

Rudy was using it very consistently, but he's also incredibly laid back.
I can and have moved litter boxes all over the house. I just show him
where they are and he's fine with it all. He is also very nonchalant
about new pets and visiting dogs. In fact, he seems to enjoy change and
is all over new people and visiting dogs as if they were covered in
catnip. Now Levi, I don't know how he will be. He's still very young.
I think it will be pretty obvious early on if he doesn't take to toilet
training. If that is the case, he will continue to have a litter box to
use. Rudy may decide he prefers that, too and not use the toilet. I
have 2 boxes, one upstairs in the master bathroom and one in the
basement. They pee upstairs and poo downstairs, so I will use the one in
the master bath for toilet training and see how it goes.

I'll try to take photos (it's a gas to see!), but I probably won't keep
a journal. There is a blog somewhere on the interweb that some woman
kept of her toilet training adventures. Her cat took a lot longer than
Rudy for each stage... I'm not sure I would have continued. But it was
her blog that gave me the idea to use the disposeable turkey pan. If
it's still out there, I'm sure you can find it on Google.

So even if only one cat (Rudy) takes to the toilet, I figure that's a
huge savings on litter and the resulting impact on our environment. Once
my basement is finished later in the year and I can devote a toilet to
the training period, I'll let y'all know how it goes!

> I've never seen a cat that just sits on the litter and does it's
> business and hops out of the box. There's always digging, whether
> it's before the business or after.

Rudy isn't a big digger, except on the tile around the box when he's
done. Levi on the other hand throws litter like confetti, so he may very
well not take to toilet training. I am not hell bent on toilet
training--if it works, then great! If not, oh well. That was my
attitude before. I think if a person is too determined and gets
frustrated with it the cat(s) will pick up on that and all bets are off.
Rudy was fine going right back to the litter box, too, but he may be
highly unusual as cats go. He's certainly the most adaptable cat I've
ever had. I've never seen him stress out about anything. :)

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 11th 07, 07:43 AM
"jstfrths" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You've probably heard of cats that use the toilet just like their
> people do. How is this accomplished?

It shouldn't be. The only thing you should accomplish is flushing the stupid
idea down the toilet. Digging and burying waste is instinctual for cats-
just like scratching. You can't suppress millions of years of instinct in
an animal without it affecting her.

We've taken too much away from cats already out of necessity for their
benefit. Toilet training is unnecessary and just a silly, human convenience
from which the cat derives no benefit.. Let the cat be a cat.

If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter box a
couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.

bookie
January 11th 07, 05:35 PM
Phil P. wrote:
> "jstfrths" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > You've probably heard of cats that use the toilet just like their
> > people do. How is this accomplished?
>
> It shouldn't be. The only thing you should accomplish is flushing the stupid
> idea down the toilet. Digging and burying waste is instinctual for cats-
> just like scratching. You can't suppress millions of years of instinct in
> an animal without it affecting her.
>
> We've taken too much away from cats already out of necessity for their
> benefit. Toilet training is unnecessary and just a silly, human convenience
> from which the cat derives no benefit.. Let the cat be a cat.
>
> If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter box a
> couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.#

HOORAH!!! i totally agree, i knew i had read it somewhere that it is an
innate instinct for cats adn kittens to bury their waste, youhave just
confirmed it for me. I hate it when people who are too lazy or precious
try to find some way to get out of a simple if a bit distatseful job
liek dealgin with litter, what if you have a baby? are you going to try
to genetically engineer one who can automatically change it's own nappy
fromthe day it is born so you don't have to?

it is this kind of thinking that has lead to declawing of cats by
tragic selfish people who think more of their soft furnishing than they
do of the cats who who live them.

if you do not like dealing with litter why can't you let your cat goes
outside to do it's business?

Bookie (who is just about to enpty jessie's litter tray in fact, and is
very happy to do so instead of forcing her to learn bizarre and
unnatural behaviours) xx

ps i am so worked up now i just broke a fingernail whilst typing, humph

Lynne
January 11th 07, 06:05 PM
on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:43:36 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter
> box a couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uh, laziness isn't a motivator for me to toilet train. If I was lazy I'd
only scoop the box a "couple of times a week", but I actually scoop 2
boxes several times per day *each* and thoroughly wash each box at least
once per week. Cleanliness and environmental responsibility are my
motivators to toilet train.

I also just don't agree that it's bad for a cat to use the toilet, so
long as they have plenty of opportunities to scratch as part of the
ritual. As I said before, many cats do NOT bury their waste (people post
here complaining about it, and people tell them to teach their cat to do
it. Hmmmmmmmm...) One of my own cats only scratches outside the litter
box, on the tile floor. But anyhoo, while using a toilet may be
unnatural, that doesn't imply it will necessarily have negative
consequences. If you have proof, however, in the way of peer reviewed
studies, now I'd be very interested in that! (If they haven't been done,
that'd be a GREAT research project for a vet student, though it may be
completely inconclusive.) Heck, even anecdotal evidence would be worth
looking at. That feeling of "it's unnatural" just doesn't really mean
much.

--
Lynne

cybercat
January 11th 07, 07:19 PM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:43:36 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
>> If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter
>> box a couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Uh, laziness isn't a motivator for me to toilet train. If I was lazy I'd
> only scoop the box a "couple of times a week", but I actually scoop 2
> boxes several times per day *each* and thoroughly wash each box at least
> once per week. Cleanliness and environmental responsibility are my
> motivators to toilet train.
>

I don't know, Lynne. I wouldn't put my cats through it. And even
if I would, I do not want to share a toilet with a cat.

bookie
January 11th 07, 08:39 PM
Lynne wrote:
> ritual. As I said before, many cats do NOT bury their waste (people post

these cats are most likely to be the exceptions (just like not every
human washes their hands after they go to the loo, ugh!) or it may be
one of their ways of 'marking territory' by leaving their 'doings'
visible for all to see.

I just do not like the idea, it does not sit well with me given
kitties' instincts to bury faeces and stuff, kind of like sultanas in
currys and fat women in short skirts, just wrong on so many levels

bookie

Matthew
January 11th 07, 09:51 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> ...
>> on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:43:36 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>>
>>> If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter
>>> box a couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Uh, laziness isn't a motivator for me to toilet train. If I was lazy I'd
>> only scoop the box a "couple of times a week", but I actually scoop 2
>> boxes several times per day *each* and thoroughly wash each box at least
>> once per week. Cleanliness and environmental responsibility are my
>> motivators to toilet train.
>>
>
> I don't know, Lynne. I wouldn't put my cats through it. And even
> if I would, I do not want to share a toilet with a cat.
I thought we already did. They always give us an audience when we are in
our throne room but do it to them ;-)

cybercat
January 11th 07, 10:03 PM
"Matthew" > wrote
> I thought we already did. They always give us an audience when we are in
> our throne room but do it to them ;-)


haha! As long as my nether regions are not visiting the same surface theirs
are, I'm happy.

Phil P.
January 12th 07, 04:37 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:43:36 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > If your stomach is too sensitive- or you're too lazy to scoop a litter
> > box a couple of times a week- buy a goldfish.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Uh, laziness isn't a motivator for me to toilet train. If I was lazy I'd
> only scoop the box a "couple of times a week", but I actually scoop 2
> boxes several times per day *each* and thoroughly wash each box at least
> once per week.

"Couple of times a week was a typo- I meant a couple of times a day.


> Cleanliness and


Scooping "2 boxes several times per day *each* and thoroughly wash each box
at least once per week" isn't cleanly enough??? I guess you haven't
thought about where your cats' tongues have been a few minutes before he
licks your face-- Or do you make him brush his teeth and gargle before
licking your face? ;)


environmental responsibility are my
> motivators to toilet train.

If you're that green- you could use flushable litter. If you don't want to
flush litter down your toilet, you could use a biodegradable litter such as
SweetScoop or WBCL- or any biodegradable litter. That would satisfy your
environmental responsibility while respecting and being sensitive to your
cats' basic instincts. *Any* way you look at it, toilet training is
entirely owner convenience without regard for the cat's basic instincts.

Also detecting polyuria- the early warning signs of CRF and diabetes- might
be a tad difficult if your cats ****es in the bowl, doncha think? How about
when the cat gets older?


>
> > That feeling of "it's unnatural" just doesn't really mean
> much.

Maybe not to you- but it does to the cat. Perhaps I'm just a little more
sensitive to a feline's psychology. Cats instinctually eliminate on dirt or
or a sand-type substrate- its been hardwired into their neurocircuits for
millions of years. Have you ever seen a cat jump up on the bowl and take a
dump on her own without training? or meow for you get off the pot because
she had to go badly? What's next? Are you going to teach your cats to wipe
their ass with toilet paper and flush or sit up and eat at the table with a
fork? Toilet training a cat is just as preposterous. I think its actually
demeaning to the cat- but that's me. I tend to be a tad sensitive to a cat's
natural instincts.

Phil P.
January 12th 07, 04:37 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> it is this kind of thinking that has lead to declawing of cats by
> tragic selfish people who think more of their soft furnishing than they
> do of the cats who who live them.


Absatively. Although toilet training isn't physically traumatic as
declawing- its just as demeaning. Every time I see a declawed cat paw-rub I
want to disjoint the owner. A quick head dunk- before the flush- would
suffice for a toilet trainer...

Lynne
January 12th 07, 05:03 AM
on Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:37:11 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> What's next? Are you going to teach your cats to wipe
> their ass with toilet paper and flush or sit up and eat at the table
> with a fork?

Maybe. <eye roll>

> Toilet training a cat is just as preposterous. I think
> its actually demeaning to the cat- but that's me. I tend to be a tad
> sensitive to a cat's natural instincts.

Toilet training is a convenience for me, yup. But if I see any adverse
effects, you can be sure I will take care of my cats. I already addressed
the medical questions. Your arguments there just aren't the least bit
compelling. And comparing toilet training to the barbaric act of declawing
makes you sound hysterical. The same could be said about keeping cats
indoors (but not by me, since I do keep mine inside for their safety). At
worst, keeping cats indoors is unnatural... just like toilet training.

I am a great cat owner. My cats are better cared for than most, in every
way. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 12th 07, 09:25 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:37:11 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > What's next? Are you going to teach your cats to wipe
> > their ass with toilet paper and flush or sit up and eat at the table
> > with a fork?
>
> Maybe. <eye roll>
>
> > Toilet training a cat is just as preposterous. I think
> > its actually demeaning to the cat- but that's me. I tend to be a tad
> > sensitive to a cat's natural instincts.
>
> Toilet training is a convenience for me, yup.


Glad we agree on that. Toilet training sure isn't a convenience for the cat.


But if I see any adverse
> effects, you can be sure I will take care of my cats.


You might not associate the effect with the cause. The effects of stress
and/or depression could be manifested in a number of ways all of which may
seem unrelated to the actual cause. But that's besides the point. Why wait
to see adverse effects when they can be easily avoided? I'd rather avoid a
problem than correct it. Wouldn't you?


I already addressed
> the medical questions. Your arguments there just aren't the least bit
> compelling.

Perhaps not for you- not at this time. But in time as you learn more about
feline health and psychology, you'll learn that cats instinctually conceal
illness and pain very well, and because of this, its important it is for us
as caregivers to detect subtle, early warning signs. Polyuria is difficult
enough to detect and identify the cat in a multicat household in which the
cats use litter boxes. In a household where cats use the toilet, detection
is virtually impossible- unless the cat is also pollakiuric. I don't care
how observant you think you are; you just can't monitor urine volume in a
toilet.
..

And comparing toilet training to the barbaric act of declawing
> makes you sound hysterical.

Hardly. I said toilet training is as demeaning as declawing- not as
traumatic. If anything, forcing a cat to eliminate in a toilet for
cleanliness makes you sound molysmophobic.



The same could be said about keeping cats
> indoors (but not by me, since I do keep mine inside for their safety). At
> worst, keeping cats indoors is unnatural... just like toilet training.


Hardly. That analogy does not apply. Keeping cats indoors is hardy
demeaning. Indoor cats view their home as their territory-- complete with a
home range and core. A cat raised indoor has no desire to roam outdoors.


>
> I am a great cat owner.


I'm sure you are. Most cat owner think they are. Most have just been lucky,
some think just loving their cats automatically makes them a great cat
owner, and some just don't know any better. A really great cat owner strives
to provide their cats with an enriched environment that resembles their
natural environment as close as possible.


My cats are better cared for than most, in every
> way.

I'm sure they are. Most cat owners feel that way, too-- even if their cats
aren't.


> We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.


I'll agree.with that.


Phil

January 12th 07, 10:17 AM
> I also just don't agree that it's bad for a cat to use the toilet, so
> long as they have plenty of opportunities to scratch as part of the
> ritual. As I said before, many cats do NOT bury their waste (people post
> here complaining about it, and people tell them to teach their cat to do
> it.

Jay Jay does not cover his waste, but not because he doesn't scratch.
He digs and buries. He just hasn't noticed that his aim is bad.

I have another cat who actually peed on my bed when I switched to a
litter that wasn't good for digging (the pellet type). I had it changed
back the next day. I got his meaning very fast, and I would never take
away his ability to dig again. In fact, I top of the litter every
couple days to make sure it stays deep enough for him to get a really
good dig since he loves to dig so much.

As for the toilet training, I thought it sounded cool a long time
again, but the thought of a senior cat falling in changed my mind. Cats
have another instint, to hide weakness. So a cat with arthritis is not
going to show it right away. They are going to hide pain as much as
they can. Even an owner who pays attention is not going to know right
away that their cat is having more trouble with jumping and balancing.

Several years ago, my healthy 17 year old cat didn't come to the plate
for his can of food, something that really surprised me. He looked and
seemed fine. But since he never refuses food unless sick, I knew it was
a warning sign. I went to put him up by the plate, and he yelped. Now I
knew something was wrong. It took me 15 minutes and finally a flash
light to find a very small patch of "meat" just under his tail. He had
an abcess by his tail, which made it painful to jump since they stiffen
their tail when jumping. He went to the vet in the morning (it was 3am
when I discovered the problem), and he was eating that night, but
didn't do much jumping for about a week. Sometimes, a serious problem
is not obvious. If he had been toilet trained, he would not have been
able to jump on the toilet, and I could have been wondering why my cat
was "misbehaving" by peeing elsewhere. Isn't it amazing how many people
do NOT check for a medical condition when their cat pees outside the
box? That behavior is often a sign, yet it gets ignored frequently.

Another issue, and this one is what deterred me from getting an
automatic litter box, is that it is really helpful to know what is
going on with their litter. And if you have multiple people in the
house, flushing when they go to the toilet, then you do not have one
person aware of any changes in patterns.

As it is, I missed a clear sign last year because we have two people
changing litter boxes in my house, and I assumed that the extra urine
in my boxes was just more usage downstairs and less usage upstairs. If
I had been doing all of the boxes, or asked if the box upstairs had
less, I would have known that there was a serious problem, and could
have said so when I had her at the vet. Because she had other problems
that were obvious, the vet did not realize she was suffering from
kidney failure. I don't know if we could have saved her or not, but I
noticed the increased urine about a week before her last vet trip, and
she died two days after that. So, I could have taken her a week early
and started her on fluids and medicine sooner.

If your cat is toilet trained, how will you know if she is peeing more?
If she is peeing that much, it won't be as concentrated, so it may not
even be visible in the toilet bowl. But if you are scooping litter, you
will see if (even if you don't realize what it means).

Cats cannot tell us how they feel, and they won't volunteer information
that tells us they are weak. It is against their instincts. So, it is
our job to be on the lookout and be proactive.

My nephew has a cat, and they live in the same house. My nephew thinks
bodily functions are gross, and I have a strong feeling that I will
inherit his cat because he has never scooped the litter box, and it
takes half an hour of bad faces before he will clean up a hairball in
his room. Most hairballs are in my room, so even if he watches it, I
get stuck cleaning it up. And meds are all me too. I have tried to get
him to do it, but he refuses and I cannot leave it undone. It is all I
can do to get him to help me by holding a cat. I even trim his cat's
nails for him.

So, why do I mention this? Because I am the one who feeds, does the
litter, trims nails, etc. So, I am the one who noticed his cat was
losing weight. He didn't believe me until it was more obvious the next
week. And by then I had increased his canned food. I figured it was
because he was still moping around after Kira died. He's the one who
always attacked her and apparently, he misses his play toy. Anyway, he
picked up weight fairly quickly with the additional cat food, but
again, I am the one who discovered the tape worm segment. It was on my
bed since he sleeps on my bed (he knows who feeds him and changes the
litter for him). And since I want to know about medical issues
concerning my cats, and I have done so since I can remember, I knew
that something that looks like a sesame seed is most likely a tape worm
segment. I took him to the vet, got the shot, and all is well.

It is a lot easier to catch the problems if you are the one monitoring
things and knowing what is going on. I found Maynard's abcess because I
knew his appetite was not right, and I spent the time to loko at his
butt with a flashlight. I found Kira's anal gland problem (which was
caused by tape worm) because I saw her fussing with herself and took
the time to look at her butt. And when I was at the vet, I paid
attention, and let him educate me.

I know cleaning litter isn't fun. I actually buy disposable gloves so I
can scoop litter and clean up vomit and hairballs without getting my
hands dirty. But I think it is a valuable tool in the health of my
kitties.

bookie
January 12th 07, 05:26 PM
Lynne wrote:
> Toilet training is a convenience for me, yup.

what exactly so damn inconvenient about cleanng out litter boxes? you
work it into you routine somehow, and dealing with it is a small price
to pay I think to have happy, well-adjusted cats behaving in a normal
way as their instincts dictate. Why do you have cats at all if you
can't be bothered to accommodate them properly and allow them to behave
in a normal manner for them?

> . And comparing toilet training to the barbaric act of declawing
> makes you sound hysterical.

no at all, toilet traingn a cat is just the start of a very rocky road
which coudl end up at declawing for some. it is all about people and
owners trying to change their cats behaviour to an unnatural degree to
suit themselves and their (often lazy and selfish) lifestyles, toilet
training is one example and declawing is not that far removed for me. i
woudl not entertain doing either.


The same could be said about keeping cats
> indoors (but not by me, since I do keep mine inside for their safety). At
> worst, keeping cats indoors is unnatural...

I agree, I would never keep a cat indoors, I think that is awful, all
of my cats and my family's have always had access tothe great outdoors
and i would not have it any other way. Yes we have lost one or 2 on the
road but i think that at least they died having enjoyed a full and
exciting life being able to experience the wonders of nature, of
chasing butterflies, of fishing in my parents pond for tadpoles, of
chasing frogs down the garden, of snoozing under the hydrangea bush in
the afternoon, of blowing raspberries at next door's dog and running
away over the fence, etc etc. i cannot possibly hope to provide the
same stimulation for a cat indoors as they woudl get outside (unless i
lived in Kew Gardens' temperate house or something, or possibly in the
Eden Project) and so the only way to provide them with the best
environment for play and exploration and mental and physical
stimulation is simply to let them outside. Otherwise I would feel I was
letting my cats down somehow.

please note that i live in a small town, lots of cast around here, not
many cars in our small cul-de-sac, no crazed rednecks roaming round
with guns ready to shoot anything or packs of wild dogs so dangers in
my back garden are very limited. I mean we are talking the home
counties of england here, not the wild west.

just like toilet training.
>
> I am a great cat owner.

to me that says it all, you say you are a cat OWNER, you think you own
the cat, it is a possession to you which can be adjusted and moulded to
suit you and your decor. I truly believe i am honoured that my jessie
chooses to live with me (after all i am not forcing her to, she could
bugger off anytime she likes when i open the back door for her), i
never consider myself her 'owner' more her carer or guardian, her
provider, and as such i would think it wrong to try to make her change
anything to suit me. One can never truly own a cat

My cats are better cared for than most, in every
> way.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

i suppose so, nevermind
> --
> Lynne

bookie
January 12th 07, 05:41 PM
wrote:
> > I also just don't agree that it's bad for a cat to use the toilet, so
> > long as they have plenty of opportunities to scratch as part of the
> > ritual. As I said before, many cats do NOT bury their waste (people post
> > here complaining about it, and people tell them to teach their cat to do
> > it.
>
> Jay Jay does not cover his waste, but not because he doesn't scratch.
> He digs and buries. He just hasn't noticed that his aim is bad.
>
> I have another cat who actually peed on my bed when I switched to a
> litter that wasn't good for digging (the pellet type). I had it changed
> back the next day. I got his meaning very fast, and I would never take
> away his ability to dig again. In fact, I top of the litter every
> couple days to make sure it stays deep enough for him to get a really
> good dig since he loves to dig so much.
>
> As for the toilet training, I thought it sounded cool a long time
> again, but the thought of a senior cat falling in changed my mind. Cats
> have another instint, to hide weakness. So a cat with arthritis is not
> going to show it right away. They are going to hide pain as much as
> they can. Even an owner who pays attention is not going to know right
> away that their cat is having more trouble with jumping and balancing.
>
> Several years ago, my healthy 17 year old cat didn't come to the plate
> for his can of food, something that really surprised me. He looked and
> seemed fine. But since he never refuses food unless sick, I knew it was
> a warning sign. I went to put him up by the plate, and he yelped. Now I
> knew something was wrong. It took me 15 minutes and finally a flash
> light to find a very small patch of "meat" just under his tail. He had
> an abcess by his tail, which made it painful to jump since they stiffen
> their tail when jumping. He went to the vet in the morning (it was 3am
> when I discovered the problem), and he was eating that night, but
> didn't do much jumping for about a week. Sometimes, a serious problem
> is not obvious. If he had been toilet trained, he would not have been
> able to jump on the toilet, and I could have been wondering why my cat
> was "misbehaving" by peeing elsewhere. Isn't it amazing how many people
> do NOT check for a medical condition when their cat pees outside the
> box? That behavior is often a sign, yet it gets ignored frequently.
>
> Another issue, and this one is what deterred me from getting an
> automatic litter box, is that it is really helpful to know what is
> going on with their litter. And if you have multiple people in the
> house, flushing when they go to the toilet, then you do not have one
> person aware of any changes in patterns.
>
> As it is, I missed a clear sign last year because we have two people
> changing litter boxes in my house, and I assumed that the extra urine
> in my boxes was just more usage downstairs and less usage upstairs. If
> I had been doing all of the boxes, or asked if the box upstairs had
> less, I would have known that there was a serious problem, and could
> have said so when I had her at the vet. Because she had other problems
> that were obvious, the vet did not realize she was suffering from
> kidney failure. I don't know if we could have saved her or not, but I
> noticed the increased urine about a week before her last vet trip, and
> she died two days after that. So, I could have taken her a week early
> and started her on fluids and medicine sooner.
>
> If your cat is toilet trained, how will you know if she is peeing more?
> If she is peeing that much, it won't be as concentrated, so it may not
> even be visible in the toilet bowl. But if you are scooping litter, you
> will see if (even if you don't realize what it means).
>
> Cats cannot tell us how they feel, and they won't volunteer information
> that tells us they are weak. It is against their instincts. So, it is
> our job to be on the lookout and be proactive.
>
> My nephew has a cat, and they live in the same house. My nephew thinks
> bodily functions are gross, and I have a strong feeling that I will
> inherit his cat because he has never scooped the litter box, and it
> takes half an hour of bad faces before he will clean up a hairball in
> his room. Most hairballs are in my room, so even if he watches it, I
> get stuck cleaning it up. And meds are all me too. I have tried to get
> him to do it, but he refuses and I cannot leave it undone. It is all I
> can do to get him to help me by holding a cat. I even trim his cat's
> nails for him.
>
> So, why do I mention this? Because I am the one who feeds, does the
> litter, trims nails, etc. So, I am the one who noticed his cat was
> losing weight. He didn't believe me until it was more obvious the next
> week. And by then I had increased his canned food. I figured it was
> because he was still moping around after Kira died. He's the one who
> always attacked her and apparently, he misses his play toy. Anyway, he
> picked up weight fairly quickly with the additional cat food, but
> again, I am the one who discovered the tape worm segment. It was on my
> bed since he sleeps on my bed (he knows who feeds him and changes the
> litter for him). And since I want to know about medical issues
> concerning my cats, and I have done so since I can remember, I knew
> that something that looks like a sesame seed is most likely a tape worm
> segment. I took him to the vet, got the shot, and all is well.
>
> It is a lot easier to catch the problems if you are the one monitoring
> things and knowing what is going on. I found Maynard's abcess because I
> knew his appetite was not right, and I spent the time to loko at his
> butt with a flashlight. I found Kira's anal gland problem (which was
> caused by tape worm) because I saw her fussing with herself and took
> the time to look at her butt. And when I was at the vet, I paid
> attention, and let him educate me.
>
> I know cleaning litter isn't fun. I actually buy disposable gloves so I
> can scoop litter and clean up vomit and hairballs without getting my
> hands dirty. But I think it is a valuable tool in the health of my
> kitties.

hear hear! very good points and well presented too

B

Lynne
January 12th 07, 07:58 PM
on Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:17:47 GMT, "
> wrote:

> If your cat is toilet trained, how will you know if she is peeing more?
> If she is peeing that much, it won't be as concentrated, so it may not
> even be visible in the toilet bowl. But if you are scooping litter, you
> will see if (even if you don't realize what it means).

You and Phil raise a good point with this. This is not something I took
into serious consideration. So maybe toilet training won't be in our
future... I'm definitely going to think all of this.

Who says Usenet can't change minds? :)

--
Lynne

Lynne
January 12th 07, 08:00 PM
on Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:17:47 GMT, "
> wrote:

> I know cleaning litter isn't fun. I actually buy disposable gloves so I
> can scoop litter and clean up vomit and hairballs without getting my
> hands dirty. But I think it is a valuable tool in the health of my
> kitties.

I don't mind cleaning litter, BTW--not at all. That was never the issue.
But again, the medical issues are something that bear serious
consideration.

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 14th 07, 01:11 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:17:47 GMT, "
> > wrote:
>
> > If your cat is toilet trained, how will you know if she is peeing more?
> > If she is peeing that much, it won't be as concentrated, so it may not
> > even be visible in the toilet bowl. But if you are scooping litter, you
> > will see if (even if you don't realize what it means).
>
> You and Phil raise a good point with this. This is not something I took
> into serious consideration. So maybe toilet training won't be in our
> future... I'm definitely going to think all of this.

I can't ask for more than that! ;) After reading your posts for a couple of
months, I'm confident you'll come to the right decision.

Phil

Lynne
January 14th 07, 02:17 AM
on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 00:11:26 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> I can't ask for more than that! ;) After reading your posts for a
> couple of months, I'm confident you'll come to the right decision.

Well, I thought a lot about all of this, and did some research. My
primary motives for wanting to toilet train were cleanliness and
environmental conservation. Neither of these concerns are more important
than the health of my cats, though. I'm not convinced of any negative
emotional/behavioral impact, but losing the ability to monitor my boys'
urine output, especially as they age, is just not an option now that I
know what I know. So toilet training is out.

In order to achieve cleanliness and be more environmentally friendly, I
ordered 2 Feline Pine litter boxes. They have sifter inserts that sit
above the bottom pan, so the sawdust goes to the bottom tray. I have
been using Feline Pine for quite sometime, but I hated that when the
time drew near to change the box, my cats had to walk in that damp
sawdust. I also hated that they tracked it through the house (even
though it tracks far less than clay or clumping litters). Another
problem I had was that there was no good way to seperate the sawdust from
the remaining pellets, and so I was dumping it all in the trash. Now
I'll be able to use every bit of the new pellets, and also dump the
sawdust in the garden for mulch. Since I flush their poo, all of my
concerns are addressed!

I just hope dumping the sawdust in the garden doesn't attract the
neighborhood cats and cause them to see my garden as a litter box. The
mfg says the pine neutralizes the urine, but I wonder if it still smells
like pee to cats??

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 14th 07, 11:58 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
...
> on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 00:11:26 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > I can't ask for more than that! ;) After reading your posts for a
> > couple of months, I'm confident you'll come to the right decision.
>
> Well, I thought a lot about all of this, and did some research. My
> primary motives for wanting to toilet train were cleanliness and
> environmental conservation. Neither of these concerns are more important
> than the health of my cats, though. I'm not convinced of any negative
> emotional/behavioral impact, but losing the ability to monitor my boys'
> urine output, especially as they age, is just not an option now that I
> know what I know. So toilet training is out.

See? I knew you'd make the right decision! ;)


>
> In order to achieve cleanliness and be more environmentally friendly, I
> ordered 2 Feline Pine litter boxes. They have sifter inserts that sit
> above the bottom pan, so the sawdust goes to the bottom tray. I have
> been using Feline Pine for quite sometime, but I hated that when the
> time drew near to change the box, my cats had to walk in that damp
> sawdust. I also hated that they tracked it through the house (even
> though it tracks far less than clay or clumping litters). Another
> problem I had was that there was no good way to seperate the sawdust from
> the remaining pellets, and so I was dumping it all in the trash. Now
> I'll be able to use every bit of the new pellets, and also dump the
> sawdust in the garden for mulch. Since I flush their poo, all of my
> concerns are addressed!
>
> I just hope dumping the sawdust in the garden doesn't attract the
> neighborhood cats and cause them to see my garden as a litter box. The
> mfg says the pine neutralizes the urine, but I wonder if it still smells
> like pee to cats??

I think the mfg means the pine neutralizes the urine smell as far as humans
can smell. But the cat's olfactory epithelium is about 5x to10x larger than
ours- about 20 sq. cm to our 2-4 sq. cm and contains about 40x more scent
receptors than ours- about 200 million to our measly 5 million. And don't
forget the cat's olfactory ramjet - the vomeronasal a/k/a "Jacobson's Organ"
(http://maxshouse.com/vomeronasal-flehmem.htm) Its pretty hard to hide
urine from a cat! Let me know if it works. I'll bet it doesn't.

Take a Q-Tip and gently swab your cats' nostrils. You might change your mind
about using Feline Pine. Have you considered Swheat Scoop or the World's
Best Cat Litter? They're both environmentally friendly and biodegradable.
They're also healthier for your cats.

Phil

Lynne
January 14th 07, 04:14 PM
on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:58:53 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> Take a Q-Tip and gently swab your cats' nostrils. You might change
> your mind about using Feline Pine.

Nothing in their nostrils. Was I supposed to find sawdust in there?

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 15th 07, 07:55 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:58:53 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > Take a Q-Tip and gently swab your cats' nostrils. You might change
> > your mind about using Feline Pine.
>
> Nothing in their nostrils. Was I supposed to find sawdust in there?


I thought you might. We were using Exquisicat Pine Litter- at the behest of
the store. Its Petsmart's version of Feline Pine-- the same shape, texture,
and color. I found traces of the sawdust in a few cats' nostrils. Since its
the same type of litter as Feline Pine, I thought you might have the same
problem.

Phil

Lynne
January 15th 07, 09:13 PM
on Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:55:44 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> I thought you might. We were using Exquisicat Pine Litter- at the
> behest of the store. Its Petsmart's version of Feline Pine-- the same
> shape, texture, and color. I found traces of the sawdust in a few
> cats' nostrils. Since its the same type of litter as Feline Pine, I
> thought you might have the same problem.

I'll definitely keep an eye out for that. I expect once the new pans are
here, the risk of that will go down further since the sawdust will be under
the pellets.

If you ever hear of anything else bad about Feline (or any) Pine litter,
please post here.

--
Lynne

Phil P.
January 16th 07, 11:49 AM
"Lynne" > wrote in message
m...
> on Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:55:44 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:
>
> > I thought you might. We were using Exquisicat Pine Litter- at the
> > behest of the store. Its Petsmart's version of Feline Pine-- the same
> > shape, texture, and color. I found traces of the sawdust in a few
> > cats' nostrils. Since its the same type of litter as Feline Pine, I
> > thought you might have the same problem.
>
> I'll definitely keep an eye out for that. I expect once the new pans are
> here, the risk of that will go down further since the sawdust will be
under
> the pellets.
>
> If you ever hear of anything else bad about Feline (or any) Pine litter,
> please post here.

If you have a multicat household you might want to look into Cat Country
litter. Its made of compressed wheat grass and its biodegradable. It has
also been proven (by Dr. Diane Addie) to kill feline coronavius (the parent
enteric coronavirus of the mutated coronavirus virus that causes FIP).

Phil