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eDog
January 18th 07, 06:45 PM
Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.

If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?

What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
he have/use?

Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
protecting the furniture.


Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:

If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
(unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?

--
Looking for a clue.

cybercat
January 18th 07, 06:50 PM
"eDog" > wrote
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?

No.

Don't declaw. All methods are the same--amputation of the last joint
of the fingers. I had this done to my first cat, and she became a biter,
and stopped covering her poop in the cat box. It deforms their feet
and it is not necessary. I have two cats now, keep their claws trimmed,
and have no damage at all. Perfect "one-two" strategy: trim claws and
get stuff they like to scratch more than the sofa. Tall posts (32 inches or
better) and an Alpine Scratcher work for us.

Lynne
January 18th 07, 06:51 PM
on Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:45:32 GMT, eDog > wrote:

> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?

Trim their nails short and they will not damage it. There may be surface
scuffs, but unless they use your leather as a scratching post, they won't
tear it. The rivets on your blue jeans will cause more damage. Make sure
you have several tall scratching posts available for them to use and teach
them not to scratch the leather. It works in my house just fine.

You had the cats before you had the leather. Considering performing a
barbaric and cruel procedure on them to protect an inanimate object is
reprehensible. Just don't do it. Or, if you are still considering it, cut
your own fingers off between the last two knuckles first so you'll get an
idea of what it's like for a cat to be declawed.

--
Lynne

Matthew
January 18th 07, 06:59 PM
Before you go thru with the can of worms try Google the subject of
declawing. That subject will get you in serious water with cat lovers
specially over a materialistic concern.

But before the cat lovers cut your throat. Try these first instead of the
butchering process you suggested

Softpaws
Train your cat to use a cat scratching post.


"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Edna Pearl
January 18th 07, 08:19 PM
There is no humane way to de-claw a cat. Learn to trim your cat's claws,
provide adequate scratchposts and scratchpads, and train the cat.

ep


"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 18th 07, 08:31 PM
I already trained the cats to use a scratching post. They don't scratch the
leather sofa on purpose.

I ordered SoftPaws and am expecting them to show up today. I am a little
wary of them for a couple reasons. Plastic can do a pretty good job of
scratching leather too for one thing.

Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
damage than I am.

A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.



"Matthew" > wrote in news:45afb56f$0$7666
:

> Softpaws
> Train your cat to use a cat scratching post



--
Looking for a clue.

cybercat
January 18th 07, 08:35 PM
"eDog" > wrote
>
> Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
> damage than I am.
>
> A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.
>

I am so sad for you, and for her. As well as the cats.

cindys
January 18th 07, 08:44 PM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
>I already trained the cats to use a scratching post. They don't scratch the
> leather sofa on purpose.
>
> I ordered SoftPaws and am expecting them to show up today. I am a little
> wary of them for a couple reasons. Plastic can do a pretty good job of
> scratching leather too for one thing.

When my son was learning to crawl, our cat took a swipe at his face. I
clipped the cat's claw's and got SoftPaws. The plastic is very soft, and the
cat's claws are completely encased. The cat never took a swipe at him after
that once, but if he had, my son's face would have been completely safe

>
> Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
> damage than I am.

Then maybe you need to find new homes for your cats.
>
> A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.

This has gotta be a troll.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Matthew
January 18th 07, 09:34 PM
Wife's can be replaced for if it was the cats or her she would find her
self out the door specially if is was something materialistic

"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
>I already trained the cats to use a scratching post. They don't scratch the
> leather sofa on purpose.
>
> I ordered SoftPaws and am expecting them to show up today. I am a little
> wary of them for a couple reasons. Plastic can do a pretty good job of
> scratching leather too for one thing.
>
> Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
> damage than I am.
>
> A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.
>
>
>
> "Matthew" > wrote in news:45afb56f$0$7666
> :
>
>> Softpaws
>> Train your cat to use a cat scratching post
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 18th 07, 09:44 PM
Divorces are messy things.

I would like to avoid getting to that "Me or the cats"! moment.

And I would really like to avoid getting to it AFTER declawing the cats.

That would be the worst of all possible worlds.



"Matthew" > wrote in
:

> Wife's can be replaced for if it was the cats or her she would find
> her self out the door specially if is was something materialistic
>



--
Looking for a clue.

Lynne
January 18th 07, 10:02 PM
on Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:44:58 GMT, eDog > wrote:

> Divorces are messy things.
>
> I would like to avoid getting to that "Me or the cats"! moment.
>
> And I would really like to avoid getting to it AFTER declawing the cats.
>
> That would be the worst of all possible worlds.

I would divorce someone who put the 'welfare' of a piece of furniture ahead
of the welfare of a living, breathing, LOVING creature that I had commited
to taking care of for its lifetime... but I digress. Take the option of
declawing OFF the table. Seriously.

--
Lynne

AZ Nomad
January 18th 07, 10:38 PM
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:31:43 GMT, eDog > wrote:


>I already trained the cats to use a scratching post. They don't scratch the
>leather sofa on purpose.

>I ordered SoftPaws and am expecting them to show up today. I am a little
>wary of them for a couple reasons. Plastic can do a pretty good job of
>scratching leather too for one thing.

>Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
>damage than I am.

>A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.

It's really very simple. Get rid of the expensive furniture, the cat,
or your spouse.

In reality, quit being so ****ing anal about the furniture and understand that
it is going to take some wear and tear from their being animals (you and your
wife included) in the house.

Buddy's Mom
January 18th 07, 11:51 PM
In all honesty - front declawing the cats will not affect the
furniture. The leather will be scratched from their back claws every
time they leap. I posted on your other topic too, but wanted to stress
that front declawing will not do the job that you want done - I've been
there, done that with shelter kitties.

eDog wrote:
> Divorces are messy things.
>
> I would like to avoid getting to that "Me or the cats"! moment.
>
> And I would really like to avoid getting to it AFTER declawing the cats.
>
> That would be the worst of all possible worlds.
>
>
>
> "Matthew" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Wife's can be replaced for if it was the cats or her she would find
> > her self out the door specially if is was something materialistic
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

MoMo via CatKB.com
January 19th 07, 12:54 AM
I also tend to just keep my furniture covered unless I am having company over.
Keep in mind, that declawing cats was actually made illegal in California
just to show you what a terrible and mutilating procedure that it is. Please
rethink declawing your cat. I know when I was really little, and this sounds
terrible, I used to actually chew on my parents wood furniture. Should my
parents of had my teeth pulled to prevent me from doing this?

Edna Pearl wrote:
>There is no humane way to de-claw a cat. Learn to trim your cat's claws,
>provide adequate scratchposts and scratchpads, and train the cat.
>
>ep
>
>> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
>> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
>> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200701/1

MaryL
January 19th 07, 12:55 AM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

There is *no* "better way" to declaw a cat. Any method of declawing results
in the same situation -- that is, you have just performed amputation, a
cruel and unnecessary procedure. Worst of all would be to declaw all four
paws (which you are considering). That compounds problems such as lack of
muscle control and possible early onset of arthritis. Ironically, you may
also cause an even worse problem *for yourself* than scratches on furniture.
That is, approximately 1/3 of declawed cats begin to urinate outside the
litterbox. How will you feel if you begin to find fresh urine in your bed
or on your carpets?

Your selection of the leather sofa was probably a poor choice, but it is
done now. From your description, it does not sound as if your cats are
using the sofa as a scratching post. Instead, it appears that their claws
leave marks because they need some traction. You can help to reduce this
problem if you look for an attractive (but sturdy) cover that you can wrap
around the cushions.

Whatever you do, please *do not* let your husband talk you into declawing
the cats. Think of it this way. If you had small children who damaged your
furniture, would you consider cutting off their fingers to the first
knuckle? Well, of course not! The very suggestion is outrageous. But that
is what you would actually doing to these helpless kitties. They are part
of your family, and they rely on you to love them and provide *good* care.

I would like to include a short quotation from a message that Lauren posted
some time ago: "Cats can develop declaw related problems years later, like
developing arthritis, muscle atrophy and nerve pain. A declawed cat is much
like someone who is clubfooted. Since a cat is digitigrade, meaning walking
on tip toes, the cat can't walk normally with his weight back on the rear of
his pads. His posture is changed and his gait is now off. Cats use their
claws as a means of communication, much like we use our voices. A declawed
cat is much like a person without a larynx...."

Here are some web sites that look at the issue of declawing. Please share
some of this information with your husband:
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html
http://www.cara-adopt.org/declaw.html
http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawvettch.html
http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=002

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e

Rhonda
January 19th 07, 01:07 AM
MoMo via CatKB.com wrote:
> I know when I was really little, and this sounds
> terrible, I used to actually chew on my parents wood furniture. Should my
> parents of had my teeth pulled to prevent me from doing this?

Hmmm, maybe that would have worked - ha! Did your parents ever consider
taking you to the vet? I'll bet Feliway would have helped.

Rhonda

bookie
January 19th 07, 02:32 AM
eDog wrote:
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
DO NOT HAVE YOUR CATS DECLAWED, I REPEAT, DO NOT HAVE YOUR CATS
DECLAWED.

for most people the fact thatit is cruel, nasty and barbaric woudl be
enuogh to put them off the idea but you seem tobe someone who cares
rathjer more about his furniture than the welfare of a living creature
who loves you and has put their trust in you to protect them and care
for them and to keep them safe from harm and not put them through
unnecessary and painful mutilation (poor misguided creatures eh?), so i
will use another argument.

Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op
due to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate
their presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house
(to replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are
incapable of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws.
since you don't want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far
more beloved furniture how will you feel about the same kitties coming
back form the vets and peeing and pooing everywhere instead and
possibly also becoming vicious little biters because their main line of
defence (their claws) has been taken away from them? Will this argument
convince you it is very bad idea indeed?

btw I have leather sofas, dark burgundy leather, and had 2 cats (just 1
now) and the one who passed away summer 2005 had been in a car accident
we think and could not retract his back claws at all but he never
seemed to scratch the sofas at all, not sure how he managed that but he
did. Jessie is always on them, either perched on top looking out the
back window into the garden or climbing on them or (most fun) trying to
catch a pingpong ball or scrunchy ball on one (usually failing as with
the slippery leather surface they just go flying as does she), and i
can't see a mark on them.

christ if you are that bothered about your f*cking sofas then why do
you not try to get your cats rehomed with someone who does put the
priorities and needs of a living creature above that of an inanimate
object. better they go to a new home than get mutilated for the sake of
a sofa.

bookie

ps i live in a rented house, part furnished, the sofas are mine so i
dont care what happens to them, the bed in my room came with the house
though and therefore if it is damaged in anyway then I/we may well lose
our deposit on the house if/when we move out. both jasper and jessie
have ripped the covering on the side of the bed base (boxspring you
call it in the states? not sure) to shreds, not much left to rip now,
so unless I go out and purchase a new bed base for when we all move out
and the place is inspected we will definitely lose the deposit. I
reckon i will just be going out and buying a new double bed for the
house when we go, simple as that, but to be honest i couldn't care
less, it is no big deal, nobody has died have they? it is only a bloody
bed.

I am sure some anal yank would probably have whipped both J and J off
to be declawed ages ago to prevent further damage but to me life is
just too ****ing short to get stressed out about furniture etc and as i
said it is only a bloody bed. I would rather have happy cats able to do
whatever comes naturally to them and a shredded bed base than miserable
mutilated cats and pristine furniture anyday.

pps yes they have both had scratching posts, jasper ignored his, jessie
loves hers, both go outside and scratch trees inthe garden, but they
also liek a good scratch onthe side of the bed as it seems to get me
out of bed inthe mornign and downstairs to serve breakfast quicker than
normal methods

Buddy's Mom
January 19th 07, 02:39 AM
I would like to add this - about 50% of the cats that I have had in my
60-year lifetime have been declawed - shelter, etc. I have NEVER
noticed the strange behaviors that everyone on this forum list. Just
wanted to state that fact. I currently have a front declawed Maine
Coon from the shelter - declawed before I got him at age 3 - who is the
sweetest kitty I have ever had.

But I will restate that front declawing will not save the leather
couch!


bookie wrote:
> eDog wrote:
> > Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> > raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
> >
> > If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
> >
> > What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
> > he have/use?
> >
> > Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> > protecting the furniture.
> >
> >
> > Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
> >
> > If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> > (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
> >
> > --
> DO NOT HAVE YOUR CATS DECLAWED, I REPEAT, DO NOT HAVE YOUR CATS
> DECLAWED.
>
> for most people the fact thatit is cruel, nasty and barbaric woudl be
> enuogh to put them off the idea but you seem tobe someone who cares
> rathjer more about his furniture than the welfare of a living creature
> who loves you and has put their trust in you to protect them and care
> for them and to keep them safe from harm and not put them through
> unnecessary and painful mutilation (poor misguided creatures eh?), so i
> will use another argument.
>
> Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op
> due to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate
> their presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
> amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house
> (to replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
> inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are
> incapable of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws.
> since you don't want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far
> more beloved furniture how will you feel about the same kitties coming
> back form the vets and peeing and pooing everywhere instead and
> possibly also becoming vicious little biters because their main line of
> defence (their claws) has been taken away from them? Will this argument
> convince you it is very bad idea indeed?
>
> btw I have leather sofas, dark burgundy leather, and had 2 cats (just 1
> now) and the one who passed away summer 2005 had been in a car accident
> we think and could not retract his back claws at all but he never
> seemed to scratch the sofas at all, not sure how he managed that but he
> did. Jessie is always on them, either perched on top looking out the
> back window into the garden or climbing on them or (most fun) trying to
> catch a pingpong ball or scrunchy ball on one (usually failing as with
> the slippery leather surface they just go flying as does she), and i
> can't see a mark on them.
>
> christ if you are that bothered about your f*cking sofas then why do
> you not try to get your cats rehomed with someone who does put the
> priorities and needs of a living creature above that of an inanimate
> object. better they go to a new home than get mutilated for the sake of
> a sofa.
>
> bookie
>
> ps i live in a rented house, part furnished, the sofas are mine so i
> dont care what happens to them, the bed in my room came with the house
> though and therefore if it is damaged in anyway then I/we may well lose
> our deposit on the house if/when we move out. both jasper and jessie
> have ripped the covering on the side of the bed base (boxspring you
> call it in the states? not sure) to shreds, not much left to rip now,
> so unless I go out and purchase a new bed base for when we all move out
> and the place is inspected we will definitely lose the deposit. I
> reckon i will just be going out and buying a new double bed for the
> house when we go, simple as that, but to be honest i couldn't care
> less, it is no big deal, nobody has died have they? it is only a bloody
> bed.
>
> I am sure some anal yank would probably have whipped both J and J off
> to be declawed ages ago to prevent further damage but to me life is
> just too ****ing short to get stressed out about furniture etc and as i
> said it is only a bloody bed. I would rather have happy cats able to do
> whatever comes naturally to them and a shredded bed base than miserable
> mutilated cats and pristine furniture anyday.
>
> pps yes they have both had scratching posts, jasper ignored his, jessie
> loves hers, both go outside and scratch trees inthe garden, but they
> also liek a good scratch onthe side of the bed as it seems to get me
> out of bed inthe mornign and downstairs to serve breakfast quicker than
> normal methods

Alan
January 19th 07, 02:46 AM
eDog,
I saw your other posting before I saw this one. What in Sam Houston possesed
you guys in obtaining new leather furniture when you already had 3 cats? Now
you want to declaw the critters. No sympathy here Dog, ya'll appear to be a
self centered and a tad dim. From my perspective you have 4 choices (in no
particular order):
Cover the furniture with quilts for everyday use, stowing them and the
critters when company comes.
Ditch the cats.
Ditch the sofa.
Ditch the wife.


"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 19th 07, 05:28 AM
I'm the husband.

The cats are my buddies.

"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
:

> Whatever you do, please *do not* let your husband talk you into
> declawing the cats.



--
Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 19th 07, 05:32 AM
That's the thing - front declawing won't save the couch and I find all
fours declawing a little repulsive.

I am not the only voice in the house on this topic. The quicker I can get
it to look under control the more likely I can save the cat claws.

I am considering getting a leather professional in here so I can find an
ideal leather touch up product. I've seen (and bookmarked) a british
product that is sort of like a shoe polish, but presumably doesn't rub
off onto your clothes.



"Buddy's Mom" > wrote in news:[email protected]
38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>
> But I will restate that front declawing will not save the leather
> couch!
>
>



--
Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 19th 07, 05:37 AM
Well..

(1) I have an older, smaller leather sofa and it does not show the cat
scratches at all. They climb all over it to get to the windows right
behind it. It must be a peculiarity of the leather.

(2) The cats have shown no interest in actually scratching the older
leather sofa on purpose.

(3) I would have been happy keeping the older Futon as my main sofa, but
the wife wasn't.

and the end result was a new sofa that shows the light underside of the
leather whereever it gets scratched.




"Alan" > wrote in
:

> I saw your other posting before I saw this one. What in Sam Houston
> possesed you guys in obtaining new leather furniture when you already
> had 3 cats?



--
Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 19th 07, 05:38 AM
My parents used electric shocks.

"MoMo via CatKB.com" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Should my
> parents of had my teeth pulled to prevent me from doing this?
>



--
Looking for a clue.

AZ Nomad
January 19th 07, 05:43 AM
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 04:38:38 GMT, eDog > wrote:


>My parents used electric shocks.
unfortunately, you lived.

Alan
January 19th 07, 06:57 AM
Ditch the wife...

"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Well..
>
> (1) I have an older, smaller leather sofa and it does not show the cat
> scratches at all. They climb all over it to get to the windows right
> behind it. It must be a peculiarity of the leather.
>
> (2) The cats have shown no interest in actually scratching the older
> leather sofa on purpose.
>
> (3) I would have been happy keeping the older Futon as my main sofa, but
> the wife wasn't.
>
> and the end result was a new sofa that shows the light underside of the
> leather whereever it gets scratched.
>
>
>
>
> "Alan" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I saw your other posting before I saw this one. What in Sam Houston
> > possesed you guys in obtaining new leather furniture when you already
> > had 3 cats?
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Rhonda
January 19th 07, 06:59 AM
AZ Nomad wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 04:38:38 GMT, eDog > wrote:
>
>>My parents used electric shocks.
>
> unfortunately, you lived.

Wow, where did you study the art of persuasion? Ask for a refund.

Rhonda

Lynne
January 19th 07, 07:21 AM
on Fri, 19 Jan 2007 04:37:39 GMT, eDog > wrote:

> Well..
>
> (1) I have an older, smaller leather sofa and it does not show the cat
> scratches at all. They climb all over it to get to the windows right
> behind it. It must be a peculiarity of the leather.
>
> (2) The cats have shown no interest in actually scratching the older
> leather sofa on purpose.
>
> (3) I would have been happy keeping the older Futon as my main sofa,
> but the wife wasn't.
>
> and the end result was a new sofa that shows the light underside of
> the leather whereever it gets scratched.

I feel bad for you that your wife cares more about stupid furniture than
she cares about your cats. You should withold sex until she backs the
hell off.

I plan on buying a new set of leather furniture when my basement is
finished. What brand and what type and color of finish did you buy so I
can avoid it?

--
Lynne

Cat Protector
January 19th 07, 08:26 AM
Anyone declawing a cat should be forced to go through it themselves. If you
are against it then you shouldn't do it. Would you cut off your human kids
fingers if they destroyed your precious couch? Things can be replaced but
the damage and pain you will cause that cat will follow them the rest of
their life Declawed cats will develop deep psychological issues and
definately become biters. Also, by declawing your cat, if they get out
they'll have no defense against predators or if they encounter another cat
wanting to fight. Declawing a cat would punish them permanently for doing
something that comes naturally to them.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Clip your cat's claws on a regular basis.

2. Get them a scratching post and teach the cat to use it.

3. Use soft claws which you can buy at Petsmart.

4. Put a plastic cover over your couch.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

MaryL
January 19th 07, 10:06 AM
Yes, I realized after I sent the message that I should have asked you not to
let your wife (not your "husband") talk you into declawing. Please, though,
do not give in on this point. I had a cat that was declawed on all four
paws. She was declawed before I adopted her, then the people who had the
procedure done decided they could not keep her indoors because they were
expecting another baby and did not have room for the cat. Amber was truly a
little angel -- one of the dearest, sweetest little cats a person could ever
hope for. She compensated very well for the loss of her claws, but she
never did have the same balance and agility as all of my other cats have
had. She obviously could not climb like they can, but she also did not have
the same type of balance when she would jump up onto the arm of a chair or
other similar objects. As she got older, she started to urinate outside the
litter box, and she stopped covering feces in the box. I finally realized
that it was probably painful for her to scratch in the litter box. I
switched to the very softest litter I could find. That helped for awhile,
then she went back to urinating on the carpet. It was not a medical (other
than paws) or behavioral issue -- she would go to the same spot each time,
and I am sure it was because of pain in her feet that had developed because
of early arthritis. For awhile, I would cover that spot, but then she would
locate another spot. Finally, I just accepted it and cleaned that area as
best I could. After she died, I had the area of carpet and padding removed
and sealed the concrete underneath before replacing the carpet. We even had
to remove a section of tack strip because the urine had soaked into the
wood.

My point with this is that you could eventually face something far worse
than scratches on the sofa. Amber was not misbehaving, and I did not treat
it as such -- she was reacting to pain. But what would your wife do if she
were faced with some of the negative effects that are often seen in declawed
cats, such as inappropriate urination or biting? That does not even begin
to address the question of how unfair it is to the *cat* to amputate, but I
am concentrating instead on how *people* will react. I certainly do not
claim that all declawed cats will have these characteristics. However, a
much larger percentage of declawed than clawed cats do have these problems.
Approximately 1/3 of declawed cats exhibit some of these characteristics --
not necessarily right away, but later on and at an earlier age than would
normally be expected. I used to do volunteer work at the animal shelter,
and there were *many* declawed cats that were dumped there because they had
started to spray or urinate in the house, bite, etc.

--
MaryL

MaryL


"eDog" > wrote in message
.. .
> I'm the husband.
>
> The cats are my buddies.
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
> :
>
>> Whatever you do, please *do not* let your husband talk you into
>> declawing the cats.
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Phil P.
January 19th 07, 11:49 AM
"eDog" > wrote in message
.. .
> Divorces are messy things.

Not if you initiate the proceedings. Sounds like your wife probably has a
whole basket full of problems. If I were you, I'd cut my losses. Do you
really want to be with some one whose so insensitive to another creature-
not to mention your feelings.


> I would like to avoid getting to that "Me or the cats"! moment.


I think that's inevitable. I know the mentality and I see the early warning
signs-- I've been through it *twice*. My cats are still here. After I was
given "the ultimatum", I could no longer trust my wife alone with my cats.
She had to go *that day*-- and she did.

If a fuuking sofa is stressing your marriage, its probably on shakey ground
to begin with. What happens when she complains about cat hair on her
clothes? Is she going to tell you to shave the cat? What about the litter
box? What happens when the cat wants to sleep next you in bed? What
happens if the cat gets sick and needs expensive treatment which interferes
with her vacation plans? So you see? Complaining about scratches on the sofa
is just the beginning.

Declawing your cat is only a temporary solution for you- but its permanent
mayhem and deprivation for your cat.


> And I would really like to avoid getting to it AFTER declawing the cats.


If you declaw your cats, you'll resent her for the rest of your life. You
might be able to surpress the resentment for awhile, but sooner or later it
will surface.

http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm


>
> That would be the worst of all possible worlds.

Complaining about scratches on the sofa is just the tip of the iceberg. If
I were you, I'd cut my losses. There are millions of women who would love to
meet a man who loves cats cares so deeply about their welfare. Just go to
any pet store on a Saturday! You can trust me on that!

Phil

sheelagh
January 19th 07, 02:32 PM
> Looking for a clue.

If none of the stories on here have given you a *clue* by now, then I
will depart and give you a final one or two.
1:Have the wife declawed whilst your at it!

2:Learn to read like I did.....

Seriously, I mean it-If your wife is all for it, then make sure she has
it done before the cat's, then if she still feels it is the best
option, then I would to conceed to you.Somehow, I think that you will
find the problem will disappear
S.

---MIKE---
January 19th 07, 02:42 PM
I really think that the OP is a troll. If not, the obvious solution is
a heavy plastic cover for the couch.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Wendy
January 19th 07, 03:05 PM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Best method is not to.

Get a heavy throw to place over the couch and use soft paws. I'd also
complain to the couch manufacturer that the leather is too easily marked and
perhaps isn't the same quality that you saw in the store as you said you
tried scratching it there and couldn't

W

eDog
January 19th 07, 05:35 PM
Now that you mention it, I am reminded of a cat that my mother had which
developed issues with the litter box later in life. The problem seemed to
start when another cat was brought into the house. This cat bullied my
mothers cat and would attack her when she was in the litter box.

But now that I think about it, even when the cats were finally separated
"Cassandra" would still bolt out of the litter box in a sort of panic
without burying her business. Perhaps it was an issue of pain in the
claws. But in her case I think it was more likely an exagerated fear of
being caught making feces by a predator or bully.

I know my cats will miss their claws if they are declawed. They have a 30
inch scratching post which they love to climb upon and man handle with
all fours. It will break my heart every time I see that they are no
longer able to do this.

As I said in another post in this thread, I tried to find leather that
would hold up under minor scratching much as another piece of leather
furniture I own does. Unfortunately I failed in this. I also was unable
to steer the missus to a cheaper sofa.

Now I am faced with the delemma that if my wife feels she can never have
anything nice because of the cats, she will become UNHAPPY.

If I am to save the cats claws I am going to have to find a way to touch
up the surface scratches, make a visible effort with the soft paws and
convince my wife that she is not going to have to live with a sofa that
is under a blanket 24/7/365.

It feels like a long shot.



"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
:

> Yes, I realized after I sent the message that I should have asked you
> not to let your wife (not your "husband") talk you into declawing.
> Please, though,
>



--
Looking for a clue.

-L.
January 19th 07, 08:00 PM
eDog wrote:
> Now that you mention it, I am reminded of a cat that my mother had which
> developed issues with the litter box later in life. The problem seemed to
> start when another cat was brought into the house. This cat bullied my
> mothers cat and would attack her when she was in the litter box.
>
> But now that I think about it, even when the cats were finally separated
> "Cassandra" would still bolt out of the litter box in a sort of panic
> without burying her business. Perhaps it was an issue of pain in the
> claws. But in her case I think it was more likely an exagerated fear of
> being caught making feces by a predator or bully.
>
> I know my cats will miss their claws if they are declawed.

It's not a matter of them "missing" their claws - it's a matter of them
becoming maimed. Declawing removes the last section of the toe - not
just the claw. 4-paw declawing is so cruel most vets won't even do it.
Also, your cats are likely to become biters and urinate
inappropriately once they are declawed. Those are the two most common
after effects of declawing. If wifey doesn't like scratched furniture
you can be assured she won't like pee-soaked furniture any better.

Here are some reports of problems assocated with declawing (from one of
my old posts):

> 1. "Four percent of the cats began to defecate out of box and
> 12% began to bite after onychectomy."
> ref: Bennett M, Houpt KA, Erb HN. Effects of declawing on feline
> behavior. Comp Anim Pract 1988;2:7-12.

> 2. Retrospective survey of 887 cat owners from private practices.
> Clients were asked to fill out a survey on the incidence of aggressive
> behaviors in their cats. "Twenty three percent of declawed cats
> bit family members; 2.3% of each seriously enough for medical
> attention."
> ref: Borchelt PL, Voith VL. Aggressive behavior in cats. Compend
> Contin Educ Pract Vet 1987;9:49-57.

> 3. "Twenty four percent of the cats had short-term postoperative
> complications including, two hemorrhage, one infection, and one change
> in behavior. Mean and median days until walking normally were 6.3 and
> 7 days, respectively, range 1-21 days. One cat did not walk
> normally for 180 days."
> ref: Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, et al. Comparison of effects of
> elective tenectomy or onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc
> 1998;213:370-373.

> 4. Retrospective written survey of private practice clients. Owners
> reported that "34% had discomfort post-surgically, primarily
> tenderness (78%). Cats done > 1 yr had more post-surgical discomfort;
> 41% were still allowed outdoors. 4% reported a possible increase in
> biting or harder biting."
> ref: Landsberg GM. Cat owners'; attitudes toward declawing.
> Anthrozoos 1991;4:192-197

> 5. Retrospective mail survey of veterinarians. 320/400 returned
> questionnaires. "78.4% of the vets did not advocate declawing. 47%
> veterinarians' recollections indicated no problems, 53% reported
> complications; 24.9% reported nail regrowth, 9.9% reported
> additional long term problems."
> ref: Landsberg GM. Declawing is controversial but saves pets. A
> veterinarian survey. Vet Forum 1991;8:66-67.

> 6. Assessment of complications seven days and six months post-surgery,
> in a clinical setting. Two techniques for onychectomy and two
> adhesives for wound closure were compared. "66% of the cats returned
> for both one week and six-month clinician rechecks. Lameness occurred
> in 21% of all cats. Dehiscence (opening of the wound) occurred in 34%
> of all cats."
> ref: Martinez SA, Hauptmann J, Walshaw R. Comparing two techniques for
> onychectomy in cats and two adhesives for wound closure. Vet Med 1993;
> 88:516-525.

> 7. Cross sectional internet survey. "19.6% cats in the study were
> declawed. Complication rates after declawing were not reported.
> Declawed cats showed more house soiling (25%)."
> ref: Morgan M, Houpt KA. Feline behavior problems: the influence of
> declawing. Anthrozoos 1989;3:50-53.

> 8. Case-control study of owned and relinquished cats involving a
> random digit dial (phone) survey of cat owners. "Prevalence of
> declawing was 45%(476/1056) in the owned cat population. Among 218
> cats relinquished to a shelter, more (52.4%) declawed cats than
> non-declawed cats (29.1%) were reported by owners to have
> inappropriate elimination".
> ref: Patronek, GJ, Glickman LT, Beck AM, et al. Risk factors for
> relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc
> 1996;209:582-588.

> 9. Retrospective phone follow-up of clients. "39/98 owners whose cats
> underwent elective onychectomy or tendonectomy were contacted two
> months to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery. 80% had more
> than one medical complication. 33% developed at least one behavior
> problem; 15.4% would not use the litter box and 17.9% had an increase
> in biting habits or intensity".
> ref: Yeon SC, Flanders JA, Scarlett JM, et al. Attitudes of owners
> regarding tendonectomy and onychectomy in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc
> 2001;218:43-47.

And more:

> 1. Veterinary Surgery Journal:
> 50% post surgical complication rate (Vet Surg 1994
> Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80)

> 2. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association:
> 19.8% long-term complication rate (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug
> 1;213(3):370-3)
> "high complication rate for [declawing]" (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998
> Aug 1;213(3):370-3)

> Declawing is 100% preventable. "The most common reason for considering
> declawing is to avoid damage caused by the cat scratching household
> materials", which can be dealth with by less invasive measures (J Am
> Vet Med Assoc 2001 Jan 1;218(1):43-7)

> 3. World Small Animal Veterinary Association - 2001:
> Greater incidence of inappropriate elimination problems: More
> "(52.4%) declawed cats than non-declawed cats (29.1%) were reported by
> owners to have inappropriate elimination problems."

> Greater incidence of long-term behavior problems :
> "(33%) developed at least one behavior problem."
> "(17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity."
> "(15.4%) would not use the litter box"
> "Where possible legislation should be enacted to prohibit the
> performance of non-therapeutic surgical procedures for purely cosmetic
> purposes,
> in particular; d. Declawing and defanging."

> 4. Canadian Veterinary Journal:
> Declawing puts cats at risk for leg fracture (Can Vet J 1998
> Jun;39(6):337-8)

And, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Furthermore, The Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights, a
group of over *60,000* veterinarians are completely against declawing
unless there is a medical issue (avulsued nail, etc.). In addition,
there are many, many lisenced veterinarians who have spoken out
against declawing in public forums and published journals. The Cat
Fancier's assosciation is against declawing. I can provide references
for unsubstantiated statements in this paragraph, if anyone is
interested.

We (multiple posters) have posted numerous ways to curb scratching
behavior and redirect it to appropriate scratching surfaces. The links
provided in this thread provide multiple
soultions. If you have not found them yet, you either don't care or
don't read very carefully. So, I'll give you the benefit of the
doubt, and list a few here (off the top of my head):

1. Sticky Paws
2. Frequent nail trims
3. SoftPaws
4. Feliaway
5. Large, substantial cat trees/posts that have multiple scratching
surfaces available
6. Catnip on the trees, above
7. Throw rugs turned inside-out, and rolled up and secured, which
serve as scratching toys
8. Turbo mouse scratching pad

The scenarios/solutions are endless.

http://www.stopdeclaw.com, http://www.catscratching.com/, and
http://www.maxshouse.com have many solutions.

Declawing is the lazy person's way of dealing with scratching
"problems". With a little effort on the part of the owner, cats can
be trained to scratch appropriately, and/or scratching can be made
into a non-issue. But one must be motivated to make these methods
work, and not simply say "he won't use the post, I'll declaw him".
That is the coward's solution.

>They have a 30
> inch scratching post which they love to climb upon and man handle with
> all fours. It will break my heart every time I see that they are no
> longer able to do this.

Well then tell your wife to get over her fixation on the material.
Sheesh!
A 30 inch scratching post isn't sufficient. Multiple cats in a
househole require a cat TREE with multiple, different scratching
surfaces.


>
> As I said in another post in this thread, I tried to find leather that
> would hold up under minor scratching much as another piece of leather
> furniture I own does. Unfortunately I failed in this. I also was unable
> to steer the missus to a cheaper sofa.

So you knowingly bought a piece of furniture that the cats would
damage, and now you are whining that the cats are damaging it. Not
real bright. Put your foot down and stand up to your wife. Declawing
is NOT a solution.

>
> Now I am faced with the delemma that if my wife feels she can never have
> anything nice because of the cats, she will become UNHAPPY.

Too bad. You should have put your foot down when wifey insisted on
furniture that the cats could ruin.

>
> If I am to save the cats claws I am going to have to find a way to touch
> up the surface scratches, make a visible effort with the soft paws and
> convince my wife that she is not going to have to live with a sofa that
> is under a blanket 24/7/365.
>
> It feels like a long shot.

Buy a cat TREE, and some Sticky Paws, trim the cat's nails, follow the
links I provided and find a solution. Do not declaw your cats - it's
barbaric and inhumane. And if that fails (which it won't if you are
persistent) tell wifey to get over it. Maiming another being for
aesthetics is unconscionable - a fact you already know but won't admit.

-L.

eDog
January 19th 07, 08:10 PM
I had an Ethan Allen piece that is normall covered in fabric covered
with one of their available selections of leather. It's a burgundy
color.


Scratching the hell out of it with my own nails did little to reveal how
it would fare under the cats nails.

I would suggest two things about leather:

(1) Black is the easiest color to match as far as inexpensive
touchup techniques. A magic marker might do, but they make polishes
for restoring the color to leather and black is black.

(2) If you look at the underside of the leather you can get a feel
for whether or not the suede absorbed the dye as well. If the
underside is light like untreated suede the scratches will reveal the
suede underbelly.

It's still a mystery why my old cheaper sofa has held up so well.
If I knew what kind of leather it was I would recommend that to the
group.



Lynne > wrote in
:

>
> I plan on buying a new set of leather furniture when my basement is
> finished. What brand and what type and color of finish did you buy so
> I can avoid it?
>



--
Looking for a clue.

drdschmidt
January 19th 07, 08:10 PM
I have heard there is a new form of declawing, although I am not for
declawing unless it is an absolute need but it is done by laser and the
recovery time is almost immediate, a day or so.

eDog wrote:
>Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
>raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
>If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
>What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
>he have/use?
>
>Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
>protecting the furniture.
>
>Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
>If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
>(unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>

eDog
January 19th 07, 08:11 PM
Thank you. This is helpful.

"Wendy" > wrote in
:

> complain to the couch manufacturer that the leather is too easily
> marked and perhaps isn't the same quality that you saw in the store as
> you said you tried scratching it there and couldn't
>
>

eDog
January 19th 07, 08:22 PM
Yup, that's alrady not allowed.


> What happens when the cat wants to sleep next you in bed?

At least it's not allowed when she's in the bed.

I regularly get to nap with all three of them in the bed. We have different
schedules and that works out pretty well.

I can see her point at night. There is always some kind of antics going on
between the 3 of them at 3 in the morning. We lock them out of the bedroom
at night.

When I used to live alone and had a different pair of cats (deceased now)
they frequently woke meup at night. If I tried locking them out of the room
they would cry at the door and tear up the linoleum in the hallway.

It was less trouble to allow them into my bed and just send them packing
when they started to misbehave.

The three cats I have now do a pretty good job of keeping each other
company at night, but they do love those daytime naps with daddy when they
get a chance.

eDog
January 19th 07, 10:28 PM
If I were *personally* in favor of declawing my cats, I would have
already done so.

I have been doing nothing but reading websites about cats and their claws
for the last three days. I trust very few of the sites. They are all
reading off the exact same set of "quotes" like the talking points on
Sunday morning TV.

I am leaning against declawing the cats because I think that even if I
assumed a front declaw was something they would "get over", and it
probably is, a four paw declaw is really tempting fate that something
will go wrong.

I didn't get these cats so I could hurt them. I got them so I could
pamper them and make them the happiest luckiest cats I know of.

By simply owning a cat in an apartment which you never let outside of the
house (like I can't) you are asking an awful lot from it. Over time the
cat will become less active and give up hunting for luxuriating around
the house. It will trade darwinian stresses for security and boredom.."a
walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage" so to speak.

Nobody ever asked them if that's the choice they wanted to make.

At least we humans can blame Pink Floyd.

And I do hope you are a vegan and that your cats are vegans too.

There is probably more animal cruelty in every chicken breast than there
is in a typical declawing operation on a cat.


"-L." > wrote in news:[email protected]
11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com:

> Declawing removes the last section of the toe - not
> just the claw.



-

Lynne
January 19th 07, 10:58 PM
on Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:28:36 GMT, eDog > wrote:

> I am leaning against declawing the cats because I think that even if I
> assumed a front declaw was something they would "get over", and it
> probably is, a four paw declaw is really tempting fate that something
> will go wrong.

It would be far kinder to rehome your cats.

<snip>

> And I do hope you are a vegan and that your cats are vegans too.

While I am a vegetarian, I hope you are not depriving your cats of a
meat-based diet. Cats are TRUE carnivores and that would be cruel to
them AND unhealthy.

> There is probably more animal cruelty in every chicken breast than
> there is in a typical declawing operation on a cat.

One has nothing to do with the other. Factory farming is a huge industry
in this country. I abhor factory farming and do not buy factory farmed
products, but that is a choice I can afford to make. It is also a luxury
and not everyone has that option.

Declawing, on the other hand, is a barbaric mutilation that, as a
thinking person, you should not even be considering having done to these
cats you proclaim to love.

--
Lynne

MaryL
January 19th 07, 11:00 PM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Now that you mention it, I am reminded of a cat that my mother had which
> developed issues with the litter box later in life. The problem seemed to
> start when another cat was brought into the house. This cat bullied my
> mothers cat and would attack her when she was in the litter box.
>
> But now that I think about it, even when the cats were finally separated
> "Cassandra" would still bolt out of the litter box in a sort of panic
> without burying her business. Perhaps it was an issue of pain in the
> claws. But in her case I think it was more likely an exagerated fear of
> being caught making feces by a predator or bully.
>
> I know my cats will miss their claws if they are declawed. They have a 30
> inch scratching post which they love to climb upon and man handle with
> all fours. It will break my heart every time I see that they are no
> longer able to do this.
>
> As I said in another post in this thread, I tried to find leather that
> would hold up under minor scratching much as another piece of leather
> furniture I own does. Unfortunately I failed in this. I also was unable
> to steer the missus to a cheaper sofa.
>
> Now I am faced with the delemma that if my wife feels she can never have
> anything nice because of the cats, she will become UNHAPPY.
>
> If I am to save the cats claws I am going to have to find a way to touch
> up the surface scratches, make a visible effort with the soft paws and
> convince my wife that she is not going to have to live with a sofa that
> is under a blanket 24/7/365.
>
> It feels like a long shot.
>
>
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
> :
>
>> Yes, I realized after I sent the message that I should have asked you
>> not to let your wife (not your "husband") talk you into declawing.
>> Please, though,
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Lyn (-L) has written an excellent message describing some of the detrimental
effects of declawing. Please let me address your wife's desire to have nice
furniture. I, also, like to have nice furniture. I value my cats far more
than I value my furniture, but I realize that in your case we must talk
about how your wife can have nice furniture and also permit your cats to
have a normal life *with* claws.

Please look at some of my pictures in the links under my sig. I think you
will find that I have nice furniture. I have some antiques that still look
beautiful, and I have some new pieces that have absolutely no damage.
Moreover, my cats are free to use any furniture in the house -- they lie on
it, play on it, climb on it, etc., and they *have not damaged* anything.
They are very good about using scratching posts, and they do not use my
furniture as scratchers. However, you have indicated that your cats also do
not deliberately scratch your furniture. The problem seems to be, quite
simply, that your selection of furniture was inappropriate for cats with
claws. Obviously, your cats need a surface that provides some traction when
they climb or jump onto furniture.

You can solve this problem if you do one of the following: (1) Simply place
cushions or a decorative throw over the leather sofa. This can be something
that looks very nice. If you look in some designer catalogs, you will see
that this effect is something that many people deliberately create for the
artistic effect. (2) Or...Replace the leather sofa with a sofa that is more
suitable for claws. Many people are able to use leather, but I personally
think fabric is better. Look for fabric that is tightly woven and will not
"pull" or "catch" as your cats jump or climb on the furniture. Have it
treated for soil-resistant application (similar to Scotch Guard, but good
furniture stores have a product that is longer-lasting.) Truly, it is
possible to have the beautiful furniture your wife desires and *also*
preserve your cats' claws.

Incidentally, my cats are indoor-only, just as you describe. Give them lots
of toys and attention, good food, scratching posts (which you already have),
and a very sturdy cat tree for climbing. They will be happy! One of my
cats (Duffy, the gray and white cat in the pictures) is blind, and he is
able to reach the most remarkable sites -- and yet he never damages
anything. So, it can be done.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e

Lynne
January 19th 07, 11:01 PM
on Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:10:51 GMT, "drdschmidt" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have heard there is a new form of declawing, although I am not for
> declawing unless it is an absolute need but it is done by laser and the
> recovery time is almost immediate, a day or so.

it's the same procedure, just a different tool to amputate. Sheese, please
get your facts straight before posting.

--
Lynne

Lynne
January 19th 07, 11:04 PM
on Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:00:08 GMT, "MaryL"
-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote:

> Or...Replace the leather sofa with a sofa that is more
> suitable for claws. Many people are able to use leather, but I
> personally think fabric is better. Look for fabric that is tightly
> woven and will not "pull" or "catch" as your cats jump or climb on the
> furniture. Have it treated for soil-resistant application (similar to
> Scotch Guard, but good furniture stores have a product that is
> longer-lasting.)

You know, this isn't a bad idea. Getting 3 cats declawed (god it makes me
sick just saying that) will cost nearly as much as a new sofa. Building on
what the other poster said about complaining to the mfg, I'd get Ethan
Allen to recover or replace the sofas--even if an upgrade fee is charged.

--
Lynne

Ryan Robbins
January 19th 07, 11:07 PM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.

Why did you buy the sofa? Being a pet owner does involve some personal
sacrifices. If that means not buying an expensive leather sofa, then that's
the way it is.

-L.
January 19th 07, 11:39 PM
eDog wrote:
> If I were *personally* in favor of declawing my cats, I would have
> already done so.
>
> I have been doing nothing but reading websites about cats and their claws
> for the last three days. I trust very few of the sites. They are all
> reading off the exact same set of "quotes" like the talking points on
> Sunday morning TV.
>
> I am leaning against declawing the cats because I think that even if I
> assumed a front declaw was something they would "get over", and it
> probably is, a four paw declaw is really tempting fate that something
> will go wrong.

The thing is, you just don't know if your cats will be one of the ones
with long-term issues or not. That's the crapshoot of declawing. I
used to be a vet tech. I wasn't against declawing - I wouldn't do it
to my own cats but had friends who had declawed cats and didn't think
much of it. My experiences working for a feline specialty hospital
changed my mind completely. I assisted in the surgeries, I did
aftercare and I saw the cats that came in with complications - some
many years later. We were a surgery specialty hospital and so we would
get referral cases of cats with problems. No way would I ever advocate
declawing now. Almost every cat we treated, boarded or groomed that
was declawed was a biter.


>
> I didn't get these cats so I could hurt them. I got them so I could
> pamper them and make them the happiest luckiest cats I know of.

Great! Then don't declaw.

>
> By simply owning a cat in an apartment which you never let outside of the
> house (like I can't) you are asking an awful lot from it. Over time the
> cat will become less active and give up hunting for luxuriating around
> the house. It will trade darwinian stresses for security and boredom.."a
> walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage" so to speak.
>
> Nobody ever asked them if that's the choice they wanted to make.

That's right. Indentured servitude. I'm not really an advocate for
keeping companion animals but I do - I can't help myself. ;). If you
must, rescue.

>
> At least we humans can blame Pink Floyd.
>
> And I do hope you are a vegan and that your cats are vegans too.

Of course they aren't - cats are obligate carnivores. Meat eatintg
isn't the issue we are discussing here - comparing partial digital
amputation for the luxury of owning material goods to meat eating for
sustenance is ridiculous. Humans are omnivores and thus eat other
animals. It's how those animals are treated, how they are killed and
how they are respected that matters. And for what it's worth, I
advocate humane practices for all species - always have and always
will.


>
> There is probably more animal cruelty in every chicken breast than there
> is in a typical declawing operation on a cat.

If you are talking about factory-farmed chickens, I agree. But I don't
eat factory-farmed meat. In fact, I go to great lengths to secure meat
that I know is raised and killed humanely, for the little meat I do
consume. You are preaching to the Pope, sweetheart.

-L.

William Hamblen
January 20th 07, 12:23 AM
On 19 Jan 2007 14:39:43 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>Almost every cat we treated, boarded or groomed that
>was declawed was a biter.

A pet groomer on the cable TV program "Dirty Jobs" said much the same:
declawed cats were less well behaved. Anyhow, leather furniture
shines the seat of your trousers.

Bud
--
The night is just the shadow of the Earth.

Lesley
January 20th 07, 12:44 AM
---MIKE--- wrote:
> I really think that the OP is a troll. If not, the obvious solution is
> a heavy plastic cover for the couch.
>
>
As someone said somewhere else

Leather sofa 1,599 dollars

Leather chair 560 dollars

Knowing my cats are happy unmutilated and just being cats... priceless!

I live in the UK where declawing unless for good reason is illegal
(Good reason would be for example removing ONE claw because a tumour
was growing on it) I have 2 cats who persistently scratched everything
but their post for 2+ years

I tried everything I could think of and eventually found a post they
went straight to and used with no "training" whatsover

If I hadn't I'd have just dealt wiht it- the love of a living creature,
the sheer amusement value of watching them, the sense of wonder I
sometimes get with them, the 5am bouncing on my head (Okay I could live
without that) 'cos they are awake and want me to be as well, the purrs,
the mad rush to the food dish as if they didn't get fed this morning,
the sense of blessing that somehow right now they are warm and safe and
here (I have my partner in hospital now for 17 weeks and would have
come very close to stressing out but for them) is worth anything!

I hate to say dump the new wife perhaps she doesn't know felines and
with a bit of training from youl will

If not dump her!

She's proposing to maim a living creature

If you do might be next

What are things compared to the love of a cat? Which is not easily
given but has to be earned?

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Alan
January 20th 07, 01:07 AM
(singsong)
I'm tellin' 'ya Dog ...
Ditch the wife ...

- Phil, it ain't the sofa that's stressing eDog, it's the spouse.
If he ditches the cats he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
mental demons.
If he ditches the sofa he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
Demon.
If he ditches the wife, he'll be unhappy until he finds a girlfriend (or 2).
He's got an apartment so there can't be much community property and she can
have the freakin' sofa.
(I bet the female lurkers on this forum are loving this!!)
I'm done.

"Phil P." > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "eDog" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Divorces are messy things.
>
> Not if you initiate the proceedings. Sounds like your wife probably has a
> whole basket full of problems. If I were you, I'd cut my losses. Do you
> really want to be with some one whose so insensitive to another creature-
> not to mention your feelings.
>
>
> > I would like to avoid getting to that "Me or the cats"! moment.
>
>
> I think that's inevitable. I know the mentality and I see the early
warning
> signs-- I've been through it *twice*. My cats are still here. After I was
> given "the ultimatum", I could no longer trust my wife alone with my cats.
> She had to go *that day*-- and she did.
>
> If a fuuking sofa is stressing your marriage, its probably on shakey
ground
> to begin with. What happens when she complains about cat hair on her
> clothes? Is she going to tell you to shave the cat? What about the litter
> box? What happens when the cat wants to sleep next you in bed? What
> happens if the cat gets sick and needs expensive treatment which
interferes
> with her vacation plans? So you see? Complaining about scratches on the
sofa
> is just the beginning.
>
> Declawing your cat is only a temporary solution for you- but its permanent
> mayhem and deprivation for your cat.
>
>
> > And I would really like to avoid getting to it AFTER declawing the
cats.
>
>
> If you declaw your cats, you'll resent her for the rest of your life. You
> might be able to surpress the resentment for awhile, but sooner or later
it
> will surface.
>
> http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm
>
>
> >
> > That would be the worst of all possible worlds.
>
> Complaining about scratches on the sofa is just the tip of the iceberg.
If
> I were you, I'd cut my losses. There are millions of women who would love
to
> meet a man who loves cats cares so deeply about their welfare. Just go to
> any pet store on a Saturday! You can trust me on that!
>
> Phil
>
>
>

bookie
January 20th 07, 02:10 AM
Alan wrote:
> (singsong)
> I'm tellin' 'ya Dog ...
> Ditch the wife ...
>
> - Phil, it ain't the sofa that's stressing eDog, it's the spouse.
> If he ditches the cats he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
> mental demons.
> If he ditches the sofa he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
> Demon.
> If he ditches the wife, he'll be unhappy until he finds a girlfriend (or 2).
> He's got an apartment so there can't be much community property and she can
> have the freakin' sofa.
> (I bet the female lurkers on this forum are loving this!!)
> I'm done.
>
actually i am in complete agreement with the idea of him ditching this
old hag of a wife and moving on, she obviously loves her bloody sofa
far more than she loves him or else she woudl be more concerned about
the things he loves most in life (the cats) and would be taking their
welfare into consideration above that of her soft furnishings. If you
really love someone then you love what comes with them and in this case
it is this guys cats, so if she doesn't love the cats then to me it
just shows that really doesn't love him much either, or she would not
want to hurt him by hurting the cats, simple really.

if anybody, ANYBODY, ever said to me "it's me or your cat" then i would
happily pack their bags for them, they would be history and i would not
turn a hair about it as they obviously were not good enough for me (few
men are anyway). Have had similar issues with chaps complaining about
me putting my sport before them and they did not last long at all.

actually i really keen on this idea which has been put forward about
removing all the end bones of this wife's fingers and toes, and then
seeing if she still wants to proceed with declawing the pusses. she
would most probably be too busy screaming post-op in agony to worry
about her bloody sofa then. Can we do the amputations without
anaesthetic too? just to hammer the point home of course, in case she
forgets a few years later.

laters Bookie
ps some people really do my ****ing head in

cybercat
January 20th 07, 02:13 AM
"Alan" > wrote in message
...
> (singsong)
> I'm tellin' 'ya Dog ...
> Ditch the wife ...
>
> - Phil, it ain't the sofa that's stressing eDog, it's the spouse.
> If he ditches the cats he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
> mental demons.
> If he ditches the sofa he'll be unhappy and will have to live with the
> Demon.
> If he ditches the wife, he'll be unhappy until he finds a girlfriend (or
> 2).
> He's got an apartment so there can't be much community property and she
> can
> have the freakin' sofa.
> (I bet the female lurkers on this forum are loving this!!)
> I'm done.

Hey, I don't trust people who value inanimate objects more than cute
fuzzies. I say ditch the wife and let her take the couch with her!

Charlie Wilkes
January 20th 07, 03:53 AM
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:10:24 -0800, bookie wrote:
>
> if anybody, ANYBODY, ever said to me "it's me or your cat" then i would
> happily pack their bags for them, they would be history and i would not
> turn a hair about it as they obviously were not good enough for me (few
> men are anyway). Have had similar issues with chaps complaining about
> me putting my sport before them and they did not last long at all.

What is this sport you keep mentioning???

Charlie

January 20th 07, 04:27 AM
If you declaw your cat, cut your wife's clit off as well.

Fair is far.


eDog wrote:
> I already trained the cats to use a scratching post. They don't scratch the
> leather sofa on purpose.
>
> I ordered SoftPaws and am expecting them to show up today. I am a little
> wary of them for a couple reasons. Plastic can do a pretty good job of
> scratching leather too for one thing.
>
> Not to shift blame, but my spouse is far less understanding about cat
> damage than I am.
>
> A ruined sofa is going to do a lot to stress my marriage.
>
>
>
> "Matthew" > wrote in news:45afb56f$0$7666
> :
>
> > Softpaws
> > Train your cat to use a cat scratching post
>
>
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 20th 07, 07:48 AM
I already called Ethan Allen.

I don't know how much they will do with regard to an upgrade.

My wife is going to present a bigger problem.

I'm inclined to work with the leather we already have and treat the
scratches as they appear while protecting the leather in the most
vulnerable spots.

My wife seems to eager to declaw the cats. I could have dealt with
declawing the cats on the front claws if they were incorrigible, but they
aren't.





Lynne > wrote in
m:

> Building on
> what the other poster said about complaining to the mfg, I'd get Ethan
> Allen to recover or replace the sofas--even if an upgrade fee is
charged.
>



--
Looking for a clue.

eDog
January 20th 07, 07:52 AM
In my case that's the thing. Three cats is 60 toenails. The vet seemed a
little hungry for the work and I could imagine toenail number 49 getting a
little shortchanged as far as attention goes.

I don't want one of my three cats to be a statistic. Not without good
reason, like I have exhausted all other avenues in order to live with the
cat.




"-L." > wrote in news:1169246383.718828.70550
@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

> The thing is, you just don't know if your cats will be one of the ones
> with long-term issues or not. That's the crapshoot of declawing. I
> used to be a vet tech.

January 20th 07, 07:59 AM
Follow your instincts here. They're telling you the right thing - that
declawing
the cats is a really, really bad idea. Your marriage is your marriage,
of course,
but hey, sometimes spouses get ideas in their head that are just plain
not going
to cut it. Just tell the wife it isn't happening, you aren't going to
rip the cats toes
off and it's not up for discussion. You're not interested in mutilating
animals.
It's illegal in most of Europe, you know and there's a reason for that.

She's got a problem - she's just going to have to find another way to
solve it.

The cats stay, you like them, and they keep all the body parts God gave
them.

On Jan 19, 10:48 pm, eDog > wrote:
> I already called Ethan Allen.
>
> I don't know how much they will do with regard to an upgrade.
>
> My wife is going to present a bigger problem.
>
> I'm inclined to work with the leather we already have and treat the
> scratches as they appear while protecting the leather in the most
> vulnerable spots.
>
> My wife seems to eager to declaw the cats. I could have dealt with
> declawing the cats on the front claws if they were incorrigible, but they
> aren't.
>
> Lynne > wrote innews:[email protected] com:
>
>
>
> > Building on
> > what the other poster said about complaining to the mfg, I'd get Ethan
> > Allen to recover or replace the sofas--even if an upgrade fee is
> charged.--
> Looking for a clue.

-L.
January 20th 07, 08:52 AM
wrote:
> Follow your instincts here. They're telling you the right thing - that
> declawing
> the cats is a really, really bad idea. Your marriage is your marriage,
> of course,
> but hey, sometimes spouses get ideas in their head that are just plain
> not going
> to cut it. Just tell the wife it isn't happening, you aren't going to
> rip the cats toes
> off and it's not up for discussion. You're not interested in mutilating
> animals.
> It's illegal in most of Europe, you know and there's a reason for that.
>
> She's got a problem - she's just going to have to find another way to
> solve it.

I suspect she'll throw a tantrum, withold sex and eventually get over
it. It's just a couch, FFS.

-L.

Lesley
January 20th 07, 02:57 PM
bookie wrote:
>
If you
> really love someone then you love what comes with them

You got it in one! My partner's been in hospital for 17 weeks and I
haven't missed a day visiting him because if you love someone that's
what you do.You take all the sh*t and believe me this has not been easy
because you love someone and what comes with them

btw his main reason to get out is so he can reconnect with our Furballs

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

cybercat
January 20th 07, 09:06 PM
"eDog" > wrote
>
> My wife seems to eager to declaw the cats.


ahh, Gad, I am so sorry. I sense you probably had no idea she was this
type when you married her.

Watch out. I have noted that people who are eager to do cruelties to
animals are not slow to do them to people--as soon as they get the
upper hand.

cybercat
January 20th 07, 09:22 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>
> What is this sport you keep mentioning???
>
I bet it means "fun."

bookie
January 20th 07, 10:12 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:10:24 -0800, bookie wrote:
> >
> > if anybody, ANYBODY, ever said to me "it's me or your cat" then i would
> > happily pack their bags for them, they would be history and i would not
> > turn a hair about it as they obviously were not good enough for me (few
> > men are anyway). Have had similar issues with chaps complaining about
> > me putting my sport before them and they did not last long at all.
>
> What is this sport you keep mentioning???
>
> Charlie

sorry, rowing, or sculling more these days as you can do that on your
own (and I have no mates, apart from my furry ones, and they can't
scull, and they are not really mates as such more like furry superiors
i must obey without question). It takes up alot of my spare time even
though i can't be bothered to compete much anymore, and can be as much
of an obsession as cats can be in that you really have to change your
life to do it and friends and partners rarely understand why you have
to forego this that or the other for it (and are quite willing to do so
too).

I have never had any bloke say to me "it's me or the cat" (i do not
think they would dare, they know what response they would get) but I
have had one or two incredibly stupid chaps come out with "if you go
rowing again in the morning, then that's it; we're finished!". It is
quite amusing, they actually think I am going to do as they demand,
that I am actually going to give up going rowing in the morning, maybe
let down the rest of a crew i am supposed to rowing with, and stay at
home with some boring bloke just because that chap has thrown a strop
after realising that he is not one's main life priority and my
existence does not revolve around him. Can't imagine what goes through
their heads to think i will do as they ask, they must obviously be a
bit simple or mentally retarded or something, or maybe they are just
blokes.

so there you go

bookie

bookie
January 20th 07, 10:21 PM
cybercat wrote:
> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
> >
> > What is this sport you keep mentioning???
> >
> I bet it means "fun."

it can do but mostly it means training at least once a day, cold
weather, early morning outings on the water in the dark before work in
the winter (thankfully not so common these days now i am takign a step
back), bad backs, sore hands, being tired all the time, spending all
your money on training, competing and equipment, club politics,
egotistical coaches, sore muscles, no social life at weekends as you
have to get up at 6am to get on the water early, etc etc.
But it also means winning, being fit, beating other peple, being the
best at what you enjoy doing, getting out in the sunshine, being part
of a team, celebrating wins with lots of alcohol, black tie boat club
dinners, getting dressed up for henley royal regatta and watching lots
of fit men in tight lycra race past from the comfort of the grandstand
or your deckchair whilst someone orders you another Pimms and lemonade,
training camps abroad, going out for post training or post regatta
beers with your crew, etc etc.
like anything else, the more you are prepared to put the more you get
out of it

bookie

MaryL
January 20th 07, 10:36 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> they are not really mates as such more like furry superiors
> i must obey without question.
>
> bookie
>

LOL!! I love this description. Perfect!

MaryL

bookie
January 21st 07, 01:46 AM
MaryL wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> > they are not really mates as such more like furry superiors
> > i must obey without question.
> >
> > bookie
> >
>
> LOL!! I love this description. Perfect!
>
> MaryL

unlike some people i have never been under the illusion that I OWN my
cats, i am well aware that i am simply here to meet their constant
demands for food, door openings, pre-warmed comfy chairs, plumped up
duvets, chopped bits of ham, and other requirements, and that I should
consider myself truly lucky that they have chosen me to be their slave.
I now find myself waiting to hang stuff up in my own wardrobe until
jessie has finished her snooze in the bottom of it and emerged, lest I
should wake her whilst I hang up a pair of trousers or something (i did
do this once and got a real evil look from her, so i will not risk it
again).

bookie

MaryL
January 21st 07, 02:11 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> MaryL wrote:
>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>> ps.com...
>> >
>> > they are not really mates as such more like furry superiors
>> > i must obey without question.
>> >
>> > bookie
>> >
>>
>> LOL!! I love this description. Perfect!
>>
>> MaryL
>
> unlike some people i have never been under the illusion that I OWN my
> cats, i am well aware that i am simply here to meet their constant
> demands for food, door openings, pre-warmed comfy chairs, plumped up
> duvets, chopped bits of ham, and other requirements, and that I should
> consider myself truly lucky that they have chosen me to be their slave.
> I now find myself waiting to hang stuff up in my own wardrobe until
> jessie has finished her snooze in the bottom of it and emerged, lest I
> should wake her whilst I hang up a pair of trousers or something (i did
> do this once and got a real evil look from her, so i will not risk it
> again).
>
> bookie
>


Also...I am sure most of us have opted out of sitting in our favorite chair
or sofa because it is already occupied by our furry owners. Somehow, I
sometimes find that Holly or Duffy have pushed me to the edge of the bed.
I'm not sure hos a 9-lb. bundle of fur does that, but it happens!

MaryL

Charlie Wilkes
January 21st 07, 10:01 AM
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:12:57 -0800, bookie wrote:
>
> I have never had any bloke say to me "it's me or the cat" (i do not
> think they would dare, they know what response they would get) but I
> have had one or two incredibly stupid chaps come out with "if you go
> rowing again in the morning, then that's it; we're finished!".

That makes no sense. Why in the world would anyone object to your rowing?

I would think you might find a male rower who can float your boat.

Charlie

Lesley
January 21st 07, 01:07 PM
bookie wrote:
>>

I
> have had one or two incredibly stupid chaps come out with "if you go
> rowing again in the morning, then that's it; we're finished"

Very stupid chaps indeed!

I have a hobby that I take as seriously as you do rowing through at
least mine doesn't demand I get up early (Not often anyway-
occasionally for conventions) and Dave has long since learnt to live
with it. If he asked me to stop gaming then he knows I'd tell him where
to get off. Even over the last few months while he's been in hospital I
have missed maybe 2-3 sessions and I play twice a week, at the moment I
am refereeing once a week and Dave quite placidly lets me leave the
hospital early so my players don't have to wait about for me to start-
he knows I'd get narked otherwise

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

bookie
January 21st 07, 08:39 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:12:57 -0800, bookie wrote:
> >
> > I have never had any bloke say to me "it's me or the cat" (i do not
> > think they would dare, they know what response they would get) but I
> > have had one or two incredibly stupid chaps come out with "if you go
> > rowing again in the morning, then that's it; we're finished!".
>
> That makes no sense. Why in the world would anyone object to your rowing?

because it does take up a lot of time, early morning starts mean having
to go to bed early to SLEEP, most men do not like it purely because it
means that your life does not revolve around them and because when you
are competing you have to be 'selfish' in a way and take good care of
yourself so you are at peak form all the time. days when you are
competing at either regattas (side by side racing mainly inthe summer)
or heads (long distance time trials in the winter) are usually a write
off and you don't really do anything else except sit by a river bank or
lake waiting to race, chilling out with the newspaper and eating your
picnic until your race is up, and then everything has to revolve around
you and you cannot spend your time entertaining some lazy-arse bloke
and making sure he has a cup of tea or something to eat as you have to
focus on your racing that day. Then when you get home all you want to
do is go out for beers with crewmates to celebrate or commiserate and
talk endlessly about the racing that day, which of course has not
really included said bloke (who probably spent the whle day whinging
about how bored he was) and so he cannot really contribute and can't be
the centre of attention as most chaps always feel the need to be.

most men are just little little children really, sorry to sound so
anti-men but it really is true, they really hate it when they are not
in the limelight and the focus is not on them, and in my sport if you
want to win you have to be totally selfish about yourself and have
yourself and your success as your main priority. i have not yet met a
man who can put up with that one.
>
> I would think you might find a male rower who can float your boat.
>
that is an idea, have done so in the past, although the last could not
deal with it when i won races and did better than he did and would walk
off in a strop cos i wasn't paying him enough attention, again that
'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a gormless
pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who actually does
something with their spare time apart from shop and get their nails
done, so therefore i can do without them.

Jessie on the other hand has never complained about me going rowing, as
long as breakfast is served before I go in the morning and I get back
in time to serve dinner she is ok with it.

bookie

bookie
January 21st 07, 08:40 PM
Lesley wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> >>
>
> I
> > have had one or two incredibly stupid chaps come out with "if you go
> > rowing again in the morning, then that's it; we're finished"
>
> Very stupid chaps indeed!
>
> I have a hobby that I take as seriously as you do rowing through at
> least mine doesn't demand I get up early (Not often anyway-
> occasionally for conventions) and Dave has long since learnt to live
> with it. If he asked me to stop gaming then he knows I'd tell him where
> to get off. Even over the last few months while he's been in hospital I
> have missed maybe 2-3 sessions and I play twice a week, at the moment I
> am refereeing once a week and Dave quite placidly lets me leave the
> hospital early so my players don't have to wait about for me to start-
> he knows I'd get narked otherwise
>
> Lesley
>
> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

whats gaming? never heard of it

Charlie Wilkes
January 22nd 07, 03:00 AM
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:39:23 -0800, bookie wrote:

> 'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a gormless
> pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who actually does
> something with their spare time apart from shop and get their nails
> done, so therefore i can do without them.

Well, there you go. You're probably better off staying single.

When you strip away the cultural self-deception of our corny little
middle-class worlds, you're left with a reality that is stark and not too
pleasant, i.e, the main thing men want from women is sex, and the main
thing women want from men is money. I'm sure you are as tired of horny
lugs as I am of sneaky women who want to move into my house and take over
my life & bank acct. in exchange for sex and cooking. I'm old enough so I
have learned to cook for myself and can do without sex, and frankly it's a
comfortable place to be.

Charlie

bookie
January 22nd 07, 05:01 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:39:23 -0800, bookie wrote:
>
> > 'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a gormless
> > pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who actually does
> > something with their spare time apart from shop and get their nails
> > done, so therefore i can do without them.
>
> Well, there you go. You're probably better off staying single.
>
> When you strip away the cultural self-deception of our corny little
> middle-class worlds, you're left with a reality that is stark and not too
> pleasant, i.e, the main thing men want from women is sex, and the main
> thing women want from men is money. I'm sure you are as tired of horny
> lugs as I am of sneaky women who want to move into my house and take over
> my life & bank acct. in exchange for sex and cooking. I'm old enough so I
> have learned to cook for myself and can do without sex, and frankly it's a
> comfortable place to be.
>
i agree, although i just want a husband so we can combine salaries so i
might have a slight chance of one day getting a mortgage in order to
buy a house (house prices in the UK are horrendous, especially so imy
area, the south east) other than i dont' need a man at all and
certainly do not need one to validate my existence as so many females
seem to. I get my love and companionship from my friends and my cats

i used to think that 'men use love to get sex and women use sex to get
love' but i would like to revise that last part to 'women use sex to
get a house and financial security', sad but true.

Lesley
January 23rd 07, 01:26 AM
bookie wrote:
>> whats gaming? never heard of it

Table top (and sometimes live action) role playing games. Okay it's not
as physical as rowing but it demands the same amount of dedication

For example I am currently refeering a game and have to spend ages
working on the game (a rough rule is a 3 hour session should take at
least 3 hours to prepare- often takes longer). Doing the odd bits of
paperwork that comes with putting the refs hat on. Studying rules,
researching information (the game I run has 100+ books so even finding
the relevant fact is a big job!) then playing on a Tuesday, being the
ref on Thursday, getting to conventions, being the treasurer of my
local games club so commitee meetings etc (where my main role appears
to be allowing the chairman to vent afterwards), running one day games.
Like anything else it's a hobby and keeps me sane but it does take a
lot of time and effort all of which I do enjoy, it's a creative outlet
for me

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

bookie
January 23rd 07, 02:14 AM
Lesley wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> >> whats gaming? never heard of it
>
> Table top (and sometimes live action) role playing games. Okay it's not
> as physical as rowing but it demands the same amount of dedication
>
> For example I am currently refeering a game and have to spend ages
> working on the game (a rough rule is a 3 hour session should take at
> least 3 hours to prepare- often takes longer). Doing the odd bits of
> paperwork that comes with putting the refs hat on. Studying rules,
> researching information (the game I run has 100+ books so even finding
> the relevant fact is a big job!) then playing on a Tuesday, being the
> ref on Thursday, getting to conventions, being the treasurer of my
> local games club so commitee meetings etc (where my main role appears
> to be allowing the chairman to vent afterwards), running one day games.
> Like anything else it's a hobby and keeps me sane but it does take a
> lot of time and effort all of which I do enjoy, it's a creative outlet
> for me
>
> Lesley
>
> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

so is it like recreating historic battles or have I got that completely
wrong? i thought it might be running race nights or possibly something
liek bingo, i coudn't have been further away could I?

anything if you want to do it properly and to the highest level and be
the best at it that you can possibly be takes an awful lot of your
time, energy and commitment. Those really dedicated souls who are
successful at some particular sport or hobby are those who will find
the extra time required to spend on it and who are focussed, committed
and don't take 'no' for an answer. These people are happy to expend
vast quantites of energy on their chosen pastime or cause and really
immerse themselves into and when partners do not have the same mind set
then this can be when problems start in relationships as i have found
myself.

personally i do not get even half as much out of a relationship with a
chap as i do out of my sport or my cat, never have done, so I don't
waste any of my precious energy on chaps anymore, they are mostly a
complete drain on my resources and are not really worth the aggro.

don't know what i have eaten but my stomach's in a an awful way. also
have a burst blood vessel in my eye and so i look like a freak now with
one huge glowing red eyeball
super

Charlie Wilkes
January 23rd 07, 02:17 AM
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:01:43 -0800, bookie wrote:

> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:39:23 -0800, bookie wrote:
>>
>> > 'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a
>> > gormless pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who
>> > actually does something with their spare time apart from shop and get
>> > their nails done, so therefore i can do without them.
>>
>> Well, there you go. You're probably better off staying single.
>>
>> When you strip away the cultural self-deception of our corny little
>> middle-class worlds, you're left with a reality that is stark and not
>> too pleasant, i.e, the main thing men want from women is sex, and the
>> main thing women want from men is money. I'm sure you are as tired of
>> horny lugs as I am of sneaky women who want to move into my house and
>> take over my life & bank acct. in exchange for sex and cooking. I'm old
>> enough so I have learned to cook for myself and can do without sex, and
>> frankly it's a comfortable place to be.
>>
> i agree, although i just want a husband so we can combine salaries so i
> might have a slight chance of one day getting a mortgage in order to buy
> a house (house prices in the UK are horrendous, especially so imy area,
> the south east) other than i dont' need a man at all and certainly do
> not need one to validate my existence as so many females seem to. I get
> my love and companionship from my friends and my cats
>
> i used to think that 'men use love to get sex and women use sex to get
> love' but i would like to revise that last part to 'women use sex to get
> a house and financial security', sad but true.

Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
the contract between man & woman.

But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.

Charlie

Lynne
January 23rd 07, 04:45 AM
On Jan 22, 8:17 pm, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:

> But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
> security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
> haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.

Just remember that some of us have evolved beyond these classic roles.
I have always been the main provider for my family and I know quite a
few intelligent, independent women who are as well. Some of us choose
our mates for companionship, fun, and, yes, sex (which is part of "fun"
in my book, but I thought I'd clarify).

Phil P.
January 23rd 07, 06:25 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...

> Also...I am sure most of us have opted out of sitting in our favorite
chair
> or sofa because it is already occupied by our furry owners. Somehow, I
> sometimes find that Holly or Duffy have pushed me to the edge of the bed.
> I'm not sure hos a 9-lb. bundle of fur does that, but it happens!
>
> MaryL

Or- how many times have you watched a lousy movie or sickening infomercial
because you couldn't reach the remote without wakening up your cat? And
here's another: a leg cramp- you couldn't move because your cat was sleeping
on your hip? And my all time personal favorite: asking your girlfriend to
get up and get you a glass of water because your cat was sleeping on you and
you didn't want to disturb your cat's sleep?

Phil

Elizabeth via CatKB.com
January 23rd 07, 08:13 AM
eDog wrote:
>Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
>raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
>If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
>What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
>he have/use?
>
>Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
>protecting the furniture.
>
>Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
>If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
>(unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
Well, I think that if she's worrying more aobut the couch than the cat,
something in the marriage isn't working. If you love your wife, maybe you
should just sell the freaking couch. It's just a piece of furniture, after
all. Cats are living, breathing things.
Definitely do not declaw your kitties. Please. Not only is it cruel, but it
can also cause health problems for them later in life. The nails can
sometimes actually grow back and expensive surgery is required. If your wife
is not ready to make sacrifices, such as giving up a couch, for the cats that
you seem to love dearly, it doesn't seem that she's really committed. Like
someone else said, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Just scratch the declawing idea. No pun intended.

--
http://i7.tinypic.com/24g0snn.jpg

my baby.

Message posted via http://www.catkb.com

Rhonda
January 23rd 07, 09:35 AM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:

> Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
> a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
> the contract between man & woman.
>
> But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
> security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
> haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.

Well, men are wired to spread their oats -- have as many offspring as
possible to carry on their genes, which equates to have a lot of sex.

Women can only have a few kids, so they're wired to find the mate who
can protect the child and bring it up to adulthood. Today, that has
turned into financial security instead of looking for a guy who can club
a wart-hog and bring it home for dinner.

Rhonda

bookie
January 23rd 07, 03:21 PM
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:01:43 -0800, bookie wrote:
>
> > Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:39:23 -0800, bookie wrote:
> >>
> >> > 'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a
> >> > gormless pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who
> >> > actually does something with their spare time apart from shop and get
> >> > their nails done, so therefore i can do without them.
> >>
> >> Well, there you go. You're probably better off staying single.
> >>
> >> When you strip away the cultural self-deception of our corny little
> >> middle-class worlds, you're left with a reality that is stark and not
> >> too pleasant, i.e, the main thing men want from women is sex, and the
> >> main thing women want from men is money. I'm sure you are as tired of
> >> horny lugs as I am of sneaky women who want to move into my house and
> >> take over my life & bank acct. in exchange for sex and cooking. I'm old
> >> enough so I have learned to cook for myself and can do without sex, and
> >> frankly it's a comfortable place to be.
> >>
> > i agree, although i just want a husband so we can combine salaries so i
> > might have a slight chance of one day getting a mortgage in order to buy
> > a house (house prices in the UK are horrendous, especially so imy area,
> > the south east) other than i dont' need a man at all and certainly do
> > not need one to validate my existence as so many females seem to. I get
> > my love and companionship from my friends and my cats
> >
> > i used to think that 'men use love to get sex and women use sex to get
> > love' but i would like to revise that last part to 'women use sex to get
> > a house and financial security', sad but true.
>
> Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
> a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
> the contract between man & woman.
>
> But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
> security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
> haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.
>
cos I hate kids, can't bear the idea of getting or being pregnant, have
no desire to put myself through the agonies of giving birth, find all
kids repulsive, and i think that there are more than enough kids in thw
world as it is without adding to the problem.

much prefer cats, i just want a husband who will provide me with a nice
house in which I can live with lots of cats, preferbaly abandoned or
rescued ones, maybe set up my own cat sanctuary for retired pusses.
what on earth would I want kids around for to mess things up?

bookie
January 23rd 07, 03:23 PM
Rhonda wrote:
> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>
> > Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
> > a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
> > the contract between man & woman.
> >
> > But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
> > security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
> > haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.
>
> Well, men are wired to spread their oats -- have as many offspring as
> possible to carry on their genes, which equates to have a lot of sex.
>
> Women can only have a few kids, so they're wired to find the mate who
> can protect the child and bring it up to adulthood. Today, that has
> turned into financial security instead of looking for a guy who can club
> a wart-hog and bring it home for dinner.

got it in one! have you ever read 'the naked ape' by desmond morris?
talks about just that
>
> Rhonda

Rhonda
January 23rd 07, 06:00 PM
bookie wrote:
> Rhonda wrote:
>
>>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
>>>a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
>>>the contract between man & woman.
>>>
>>>But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
>>>security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
>>>haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.
>>
>>Well, men are wired to spread their oats -- have as many offspring as
>>possible to carry on their genes, which equates to have a lot of sex.
>>
>>Women can only have a few kids, so they're wired to find the mate who
>>can protect the child and bring it up to adulthood. Today, that has
>>turned into financial security instead of looking for a guy who can club
>>a wart-hog and bring it home for dinner.
>
> got it in one! have you ever read 'the naked ape' by desmond morris?
> talks about just that

No, I've never read that book, but we did talk about it (the wiring, not
the book) in a class that I took.

I'll have to check that one out. You have to be in the right mood though
to put down the People magazine and read that kind of thing.

Rhonda

bookie
January 23rd 07, 07:24 PM
Rhonda wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> > Rhonda wrote:
> >
> >>Charlie Wilkes wrote:
> >>
> >>>Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more advanced
> >>>a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the underlying nature of
> >>>the contract between man & woman.
> >>>
> >>>But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
> >>>security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
> >>>haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.
> >>
> >>Well, men are wired to spread their oats -- have as many offspring as
> >>possible to carry on their genes, which equates to have a lot of sex.
> >>
> >>Women can only have a few kids, so they're wired to find the mate who
> >>can protect the child and bring it up to adulthood. Today, that has
> >>turned into financial security instead of looking for a guy who can club
> >>a wart-hog and bring it home for dinner.
> >
> > got it in one! have you ever read 'the naked ape' by desmond morris?
> > talks about just that
>
> No, I've never read that book, but we did talk about it (the wiring, not
> the book) in a class that I took.
>
> I'll have to check that one out. You have to be in the right mood though
> to put down the People magazine and read that kind of thing.
>
it is not a big/long book, my copy is in paperback, probably about the
length of a small novel, gives all sort sof insights into why we humans
do the weird things we do and explains a lot of our behaviour of today
in terms of what we needed to do as prehistoric beings in order to
survive and procreate and pass on our genes. All in really accessible
language too, not airy fairy highbrow language at all (I would not read
it otherwise), i really recommend it.

go and buy it, go on, go now!!!

CatNipped
January 23rd 07, 08:17 PM
"eDog" > wrote in message
. ..
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment
> should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of
the
Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and
internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research,
explains declawing:

"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of
cats'
recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries,
including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful,
declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery
cage
because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner
of
the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably
by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation
to
a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to
this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been
employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the
clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy
of
analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used
postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and
transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge."

I can't imaging deliberately putting a creature I loved through that kind of
pain.

Hugs,

CatNipped

P.S. Hope you find that clue!

Jim Comfort
January 23rd 07, 09:50 PM
I'm reading all these negative posts regarding declawing, but we had my
daughters' cat declawed after she moved in with us, and Adventure never
exhibited any of the adverse symptoms described by anyone here.
Truth be told, she hasn't been "de-catted" in any way, either, as the
feathers from the dead birds she brings home can attest. She is still able
to hunt and provide for her family, she doesn't limp, and her paws aren't
deformed at all.
Plus, we still have all of our furniture intact. We still have the usual
problems, i.e., occasional cat barf on the furniture or worse, puddled on
the carpet (gotta love finding that in the dark with your bare feet), but
it's clean-able.

Jim Comfort
January 23rd 07, 10:04 PM
bookie wrote:

<<Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op due
to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate their
presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house (to
replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are incapable
of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws. since you don't
want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far more beloved furniture
how will you feel about the same kitties coming back form the vets and
peeing and pooing everywhere instead and possibly also becoming vicious
little biters because their main line of defence (their claws) has been
taken away from them? Will this argument convince you it is very bad idea
indeed?>>

Strange that you should say that, since of our two cats, the one who
displays the behavior you describe here is the one that wasn't declawed.
How would you explain that anomoly?

CatNipped
January 23rd 07, 10:05 PM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> I'm reading all these negative posts regarding declawing, but we had my
> daughters' cat declawed after she moved in with us, and Adventure never
> exhibited any of the adverse symptoms described by anyone here.
> Truth be told, she hasn't been "de-catted" in any way, either, as the
> feathers from the dead birds she brings home can attest. She is still
> able to hunt and provide for her family, she doesn't limp, and her paws
> aren't deformed at all.
> Plus, we still have all of our furniture intact. We still have the
> usual problems, i.e., occasional cat barf on the furniture or worse,
> puddled on the carpet (gotta love finding that in the dark with your bare
> feet), but it's clean-able.

So? She's one of the few lucky ones. Also, how old is she? Arthritis,
worsened by this despicable mutilation, appears as they get older. And even
if she lucks out and doesn't get any of the long-term negative aftereffects,
that still doesn't take away the torturous pain you put her through at the
time of the mutilation.

Hugs,

CatNipped

Jim Comfort
January 23rd 07, 10:24 PM
CatNipped wrote:

<<So? She's one of the few lucky ones. Also, how old is she? Arthritis,
worsened by this despicable mutilation, appears as they get older. And even
if she lucks out and doesn't get any of the long-term negative aftereffects,
that still doesn't take away the torturous pain you put her through at the
time of the mutilation.>>

She's 10 years old now, I'm guessing she's be showing some of the
negative aftereffects that have been described here if she's ever going to
show them. Also, I don't recall her displaying any symptoms of having been
"tortured" by the "ordeal", either. She walked a bit tenderly around the
house while the bandages were on, and she was trying to shake them off, but
when the bandages came off she was off, too, to the races, that is.
All too often I witness people who project their own human nature on
animals, even though it's been shown that they don't have the same mental
capacities to own the emotions that people think their animal is capable of
displaying. My thinking is that I'm witnessing that characteristic in this
thread.

CatNipped
January 23rd 07, 10:49 PM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> CatNipped wrote:
>
> <<So? She's one of the few lucky ones. Also, how old is she? Arthritis,
> worsened by this despicable mutilation, appears as they get older. And
> even if she lucks out and doesn't get any of the long-term negative
> aftereffects, that still doesn't take away the torturous pain you put her
> through at the time of the mutilation.>>
>
> She's 10 years old now, I'm guessing she's be showing some of the
> negative aftereffects that have been described here if she's ever going to
> show them. Also, I don't recall her displaying any symptoms of having
> been "tortured" by the "ordeal", either. She walked a bit tenderly around
> the house while the bandages were on, and she was trying to shake them
> off, but when the bandages came off she was off, too, to the races, that
> is.
> All too often I witness people who project their own human nature on
> animals, even though it's been shown that they don't have the same mental
> capacities to own the emotions that people think their animal is capable
> of displaying. My thinking is that I'm witnessing that characteristic in
> this thread.

Oh sure, I forgot, animals don't have nerve endings and so can't feel pain
like humans can - or is it that since it's an animal in pain it doesn't
count for as much - or is it that you don't think amputating a digit at the
first knuckle, and then having to walk on that knuckle, wouldn't cause
pain???

Since you obviously know so little about cats, let me clue you in - cats are
one of the most stoic creatures on earth, in fact all predators have to be
pretty stoic since, in the wild, they would either starve to death or be the
victims of other carnivores if they gave in to their pain.

What I really think is going on with you, however, is that you're
minimalizing the pain you put your cat through. I can understand that - if
you acknowledged the pain you caused you might feel a pinch from your
conscience, so you *have* to deny the fact that you put your cat through
unnecessary pain because you thought more about an inanimate piece of
furniture than a sentient creature.

CatNipped

CatNipped
January 23rd 07, 10:57 PM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> bookie wrote:
>
> <<Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op
> due to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate
> their presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
> amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house (to
> replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
> inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are
> incapable of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws. since
> you don't want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far more
> beloved furniture how will you feel about the same kitties coming back
> form the vets and peeing and pooing everywhere instead and possibly also
> becoming vicious little biters because their main line of defence (their
> claws) has been taken away from them? Will this argument convince you it
> is very bad idea indeed?>>
>
> Strange that you should say that, since of our two cats, the one who
> displays the behavior you describe here is the one that wasn't declawed.
> How would you explain that anomoly?

Of course we should apply to all cats what you've experienced with two!
Sheesh, talk about your generalizations - such impeccable logic you display!

CatNipped

Jim Comfort
January 24th 07, 12:37 AM
CatNipped wrote:

<<Oh sure, I forgot, animals don't have nerve endings and so can't feel pain
like humans can - or is it that since it's an animal in pain it doesn't
count for as much - or is it that you don't think amputating a digit at the
first knuckle, and then having to walk on that knuckle, wouldn't cause
pain???>>

Go back and re-read my comment and you'll find that I didn't say that
they can't feel pain...what I said was that pet owners project emotions that
the animals aren't really displaying. An example...when cats sit on
peoples' laps and rub their faces on the person, they aren't "being lovey",
they are marking their territory with the oils on their face.

<<Since you obviously know so little about cats, let me clue you in - cats
are one of the most stoic creatures on earth, in fact all predators have to
be pretty stoic since, in the wild, they would either starve to death or be
the victims of other carnivores if they gave in to their pain.>>

One reason that responsible pet owners wouldn't put a completely
domesticated animal in "the wild" situations, yet most pet owners are far
from responsible, choosing instead to think it "cute" when Fluffy or Fido go
next door to do their business in the neighbors yard, then neglect to clean
up afterward.
Adventure still goes out bird-hunting, but when she's done, she brings it
to the front door and leaves it there, choosing instead to come in and eat
cat food indoors where it's warm. And we live in the country, where she can
go roaming without causing accidents by crossing busy streets or highways
(an aside, a few years back a woman actually swerved to miss a dog during
rush hour traffic not far from here and ended up choosing instead a head-on
collision, killing two of the occupants in the other car...how someone can
choose to risk other peoples' lives over those of an animal, any animal, is
baffling, IMO).

<<What I really think is going on with you, however, is that you're
minimalizing the pain you put your cat through. I can understand that - if
you acknowledged the pain you caused you might feel a pinch from your
conscience, so you *have* to deny the fact that you put your cat through
unnecessary pain because you thought more about an inanimate piece of
furniture than a sentient creature.>>

Keep thinking. I remember quite clearly the entire "ordeal", and there
was simply no "ordeal". I see now, though, that you can't accept that
someone actually had a smooth and non-traumatic experience with the
procedure and feel the need to make up the experience with a different
outcome that fits what you desire.
The bottom line is that one can't definitively state that the procedure
is "always" bad for the animal, but I doubt that you'll be one to agree with
that conclusion, even when presented with a case contrary to your opinion.


--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

bookie
January 24th 07, 01:08 AM
On 23 Jan, 21:04, "Jim Comfort" > wrote:
> bookie wrote:<<Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op due
> to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate their
> presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
> amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house (to
> replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
> inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are incapable
> of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws. since you don't
> want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far more beloved furniture
> how will you feel about the same kitties coming back form the vets and
> peeing and pooing everywhere instead and possibly also becoming vicious
> little biters because their main line of defence (their claws) has been
> taken away from them? Will this argument convince you it is very bad idea
> indeed?>>
>
> Strange that you should say that, since of our two cats, the one who
> displays the behavior you describe here is the one that wasn't declawed.
> How would you explain that anomoly?

I can't explain an anomoly as I don't know what that is but I can
explain an anomaly if you want

simple; cats are all different, I never said that all cats will
display these symptoms when declawed, just some, and some of course
will display these behaviours anyway, declawed or not, because they can
and they are cats and they will be difficult and keep you on your toes.

most sunday mornings when i was a student i would display some of the
major symptoms and behaviours of someone with a brain tumour, cholera
and morning sickness rolled into one, the reason? a hangover of course
after trying to drink my college bar dry, and none of the
aforementioned diseases or afflictions were of course present. same
with the behaviours shown by some declawed cats, these behaviours can
be displayed by cats for a plethora of other reasons including because
it is in their personality to do so.

for christs sake you know this, you know this already don't you? it is
obvious, noone even dared put forward the idea that these behaviours
were solely due to a cat being declawed so why do you ask such a silly
question?

Jim Comfort
January 24th 07, 01:26 AM
bookie wrote:

<<for christs sake you know this, you know this already don't you? it is
obvious, noone even dared put forward the idea that these behaviours were
solely due to a cat being declawed so why do you ask such a silly
question?>>

You got me, yes, I do know it. However, you told eDog that if his cats
were to be declawed that they "will show", not may show, as if it would be
inevitable rather that just possible. If you deal with absolutes, be ready
to back them up.
As for eDog, declawing the cats may or may not be the answer, but in my
experience, declawing our cat hasn't been the horror story painted by others
in this thread, far from it. If you give the cats some TLC afterward,
chances are they would make it through the experience fine, but it's between
you, your spouse, and your vet.
And for those who are telling eDog to dump the wife in favor of animals,
well...so much for wedding vows and meaning what you say...'nuff said.


--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

bookie
January 24th 07, 01:27 AM
> All too often I witness people who project their own human nature on
> animals, even though it's been shown that they don't have the same mental
> capacities to own the emotions that people think their animal is capable of
> displaying.

CATS CAN STILL FEEL PAIN, we are not talking about emotion here you
complete total and ****ing arsewipe, where do you get off trying to
justify inflicting this kind of torture and pain on another living
creature unnecessarily, a creature who has done nothing maliciously to
you and who depended on you and your daughter (who obviously needs to
grow a spine and stand up to you) to protect and care for it?
just because an animal cannot communicate the fact it is feeling
excruciating pain to us in the way we normally understand does not mean
it is not in agony or deeply distressed.

And I don't give a **** about your ****ing furniture, I hope an enraged
pack of pit bull dogs breaks into your home one night and takes out all
its anger on your ****ing precious sofa and table and chairs and carpet
and rips them all to shreds, and then craps everywhere leaving great
piles of steaming faeces on your soft furnishings with a pungent smell
which lingers there for several months to come and eventually gets so
bad that you and your obviously retarded family who you keep under your
thumb have to move out and live in a box somewhere under a bridge
because you cannot afford to buy another house as you spent all your
spare cash on mutilating your pets and you cannot sell the previous
house cos it stinks of ****.

**** ****ing **** **** **** FUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!! why are some people so
****ing blind? even when you try to reason with them they still insist
on coming out with total **** to try to support their own ****ing
stupid, vicious and downright nasty behaviour, why the hell is that?
why is this man such a ****ing cretin?

i am sorry to everyone else for my language but i am ****ing fed up of
trying to reason politely with some people over this and present them
with the facts about why this barbaric practice is banned, meaning it
is illegal, as in AGAINST THE LAW, in the UK and pretty much every
other country in the world. why? because it is nasty, unnecessary,
barbaric, inhumane, etc etc need I go on? and if you support it or
practise it you are wrong to do so, simple.

****s sake, do you people wonder why the rest of the world has such a
dim view of americans when you have people like that as your countrymen?

bookie
January 24th 07, 01:30 AM
>
> --
> Jim Comfort
> Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
> Math Minor

professional sadist more like, animal abuse major, talking **** minor,

if i ever find out where you live i am going to come round and cut your
fingers and toes off one by one, no anaesthetic, lets see how you like
it

you really are a total ****ing retard aren't you?

Jim Comfort
January 24th 07, 01:46 AM
bookie wrote:

<<CATS CAN STILL FEEL PAIN, we are not talking about emotion here you
complete total and ****ing arsewipe, where do you get off trying to justify
inflicting this kind of torture and pain on another living creature
unnecessarily,>>

I think I pointed to our cat and stated that she didn't display any
discomfort once the bandages were removed, are you saying that she was
actually is agony but afraid that I'd cut something else off if she showed
it??

<<And I don't give a **** about your ****ing furniture, I hope an enraged
pack of pit bull dogs breaks into your home one night and takes out all its
anger on your ****ing precious sofa and table and chairs and carpet and rips
them all to shreds, and then craps everywhere leaving great piles of
steaming faeces on your soft furnishings with a pungent smell which lingers
there for several months to come and eventually gets so bad that you and
your obviously retarded family who you keep under your thumb have to move
out and live in a box somewhere under a bridge because you cannot afford to
buy another house as you spent all your spare cash on mutilating your pets
and you cannot sell the previous house cos it stinks of ****.>>

Now this, this is such a well-reasoned, well thought out argument that
it's just hard to even begin to find where to debate the points raised
(fecetious? yes, definitely).
As for the rest, your argument consists of "I'm right and you're wrong so
it should be against the law". Hard to find the logic in that conclusion,
especially when coupled with the fact that I've pointed to a case in which
you're insistence of the presence of agony was fallacious. And there have
been numerous other cases similar to mine, so how you can conclude that
declawing shoul be banned anyway is illogical.
If you don't like declawing, don't declaw your cat, but just as
abstaining from alcohol, just because I don't drink doesn't mean that I have
a valid reason to ban all drinking, or if one is against abortion, don't
have one, but don't ban it for people who do need that choice. It's a
choice best left to the cat's owner and the cat's vet.

--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

Jim Comfort
January 24th 07, 02:12 AM
bookie wrote:

<<if i ever find out where you live i am going to come round and cut your
fingers and toes off one by one, no anaesthetic, lets see how you like it>>

If there is such a thing as crossing the line on these boards, I think
this post would qualify. Since I'm not sure what avenues of redress are
available, all I can say is "bring it", because your debating skills sure
haven't "brought it".
I sure am glad that we're on opposite sides of the pond, because over
here, if I don't agree with the neighbor, we still have a right to our
opinions...I'm guessing that you either have a lot of fingerless friends
over there, or you choose to surround yourself only with people who agree
with you and never debate.
Actually, I'm sorry for you.

--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

cybercat
January 24th 07, 02:20 AM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> bookie wrote:
>
> <<Declawed cats will show some rather unpleasant behaviours after the op
> due to not being able to mark their territory, inability to communicate
> their presence to other cats, and possibly also ongoing pain after the
> amputations. These behaviours will include urinating around the house (to
> replace normal marking of their home), and also defaecating too in
> inappropriate places, they may also start to bite you as they are
> incapable of defending themselves with their now non-existent claws. since
> you don't want your kitties leavign marks on your obviously far more
> beloved furniture how will you feel about the same kitties coming back
> form the vets and peeing and pooing everywhere instead and possibly also
> becoming vicious little biters because their main line of defence (their
> claws) has been taken away from them? Will this argument convince you it
> is very bad idea indeed?>>
>
> Strange that you should say that, since of our two cats, the one who
> displays the behavior you describe here is the one that wasn't declawed.
> How would you explain that anomoly?
>

There is no good argument for mutilating your cats, son. So yours has not
yet
shown behavior problems that you have noticed. So what?

Find a better battle to fight. This one doesn't look very good on you.

(I declawed a cat, and have since had two with intact feet. The mutilation
in and of itself is reason enough not to do it. Their feet look and work
differently after the end joint is hacked off.)

The fact that you are willing to make this lame ass argument in a cat group
tells me you are not really very fond of cats.

Generally, when people are, they don't defend the gratuitous and
unnnecessary
hacking off of body parts.

You're clearly an idiot. And I say that without anger.

(If I allow idiots to anger me I stay angry all the time, and life is wayyy
too
short for that.)

bookie
January 24th 07, 02:33 AM
On 24 Jan, 01:12, "Jim Comfort" > wrote:
> bookie wrote:<<if i ever find out where you live i am going to come round and cut your
> fingers and toes off one by one, no anaesthetic, lets see how you like it>>
>
> If there is such a thing as crossing the line on these boards, I think
> this post would qualify. Since I'm not sure what avenues of redress are
> available, all I can say is "bring it", because your debating skills sure
> haven't "brought it".
> I sure am glad that we're on opposite sides of the pond, because over
> here, if I don't agree with the neighbor, we still have a right to our
> opinions...I'm guessing that you either have a lot of fingerless friends
> over there, or you choose to surround yourself only with people who agree
> with you and never debate.
> Actually, I'm sorry for you.
>
don't be, feel sorry for your cat instead.
as for fingerless friends, since we do not allow declawing anyway there
is no need to mutilate them in order to get across the pain and
suffering that a cat has to deal with when words and simple facts alone
have failed to make someone see sense (as they seemed to have done with
you).

as for americans accepting that people are different and are allowed to
hold different opinions, that is a ****ing laugh

Charlie Wilkes
January 24th 07, 02:34 AM
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:21:13 -0800, bookie wrote:

> Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:01:43 -0800, bookie wrote:
>>
>> > Charlie Wilkes wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:39:23 -0800, bookie wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > 'little child' mentality. I think most men would rather have a
>> >> > gormless pointless brain dead doll on their arm than someone who
>> >> > actually does something with their spare time apart from shop and
>> >> > get their nails done, so therefore i can do without them.
>> >>
>> >> Well, there you go. You're probably better off staying single.
>> >>
>> >> When you strip away the cultural self-deception of our corny little
>> >> middle-class worlds, you're left with a reality that is stark and
>> >> not too pleasant, i.e, the main thing men want from women is sex,
>> >> and the main thing women want from men is money. I'm sure you are as
>> >> tired of horny lugs as I am of sneaky women who want to move into my
>> >> house and take over my life & bank acct. in exchange for sex and
>> >> cooking. I'm old enough so I have learned to cook for myself and can
>> >> do without sex, and frankly it's a comfortable place to be.
>> >>
>> > i agree, although i just want a husband so we can combine salaries so
>> > i might have a slight chance of one day getting a mortgage in order
>> > to buy a house (house prices in the UK are horrendous, especially so
>> > imy area, the south east) other than i dont' need a man at all and
>> > certainly do not need one to validate my existence as so many females
>> > seem to. I get my love and companionship from my friends and my cats
>> >
>> > i used to think that 'men use love to get sex and women use sex to
>> > get love' but i would like to revise that last part to 'women use sex
>> > to get a house and financial security', sad but true.
>>
>> Yeah. It's been like that since people lived in caves. The more
>> advanced a society becomes, the more artfully it conceals the
>> underlying nature of the contract between man & woman.
>>
>> But of course it's not quite that simple. Besides money, or "financial
>> security," the other thing women usually seem to want is children. You
>> haven't mentioned that element of the conjugal equation.
>>
> cos I hate kids, can't bear the idea of getting or being pregnant, have
> no desire to put myself through the agonies of giving birth, find all
> kids repulsive, and i think that there are more than enough kids in thw
> world as it is without adding to the problem.
>
> much prefer cats, i just want a husband who will provide me with a nice
> house in which I can live with lots of cats, preferbaly abandoned or
> rescued ones, maybe set up my own cat sanctuary for retired pusses. what
> on earth would I want kids around for to mess things up?

Well, it simplifies matters if you don't want kids. Good luck trading sex
for housing.

Charlie

bookie
January 24th 07, 02:48 AM
On 24 Jan, 00:46, "Jim Comfort" > wrote:
> bookie wrote:<<CATS CAN STILL FEEL PAIN, we are not talking about emotion here you
> complete total and ****ing arsewipe, where do you get off trying to justify
> inflicting this kind of torture and pain on another living creature
> unnecessarily,>>
>
> I think I pointed to our cat and stated that she didn't display any
> discomfort once the bandages were removed, are you saying that she was
> actually is agony but afraid that I'd cut something else off if she showed
> it??
>
> <<And I don't give a **** about your ****ing furniture, I hope an enraged
> pack of pit bull dogs breaks into your home one night and takes out all its
> anger on your ****ing precious sofa and table and chairs and carpet and rips
> them all to shreds, and then craps everywhere leaving great piles of
> steaming faeces on your soft furnishings with a pungent smell which lingers
> there for several months to come and eventually gets so bad that you and
> your obviously retarded family who you keep under your thumb have to move
> out and live in a box somewhere under a bridge because you cannot afford to
> buy another house as you spent all your spare cash on mutilating your pets
> and you cannot sell the previous house cos it stinks of ****.>>
>
> Now this, this is such a well-reasoned, well thought out argument that
> it's just hard to even begin to find where to debate the points raised
> (fecetious? yes, definitely).
> As for the rest, your argument consists of "I'm right and you're wrong so
> it should be against the law". Hard to find the logic in that conclusion,
> especially when coupled with the fact that I've pointed to a case in which
> you're insistence of the presence of agony was fallacious. And there have
> been numerous other cases similar to mine, so how you can conclude that
> declawing shoul be banned anyway is illogical.
> If you don't like declawing, don't declaw your cat, but just as
> abstaining from alcohol, just because I don't drink doesn't mean that I have
> a valid reason to ban all drinking, or if one is against abortion, don't
> have one, but don't ban it for people who do need that choice. It's a
> choice best left to the cat's owner and the cat's vet.
>
> --
alcohol consumption and mutilating animals are 2 very different things
and you know it, don't be so damn stupid and show yourself to be as
such either.
How can my insistence that there is a presence of pain after declawing
be wrong? how do definitely know that I am wrong and that every cat
does not feel pain or is in agony after declawing? what possible proof
do you have? None. (btw you used "you're", learn some grammar please if
you are going to pretend to be in possesion of some intellect, it is
"your" in this case, jesus what a retard).

You know, I am against murder and rape but that is only my opinion of
course and since the murder victim does not feel ongoing pain
(apparantly) there really is no reason to make either illegal is there?
especially as someone out there probably has a different view to me and
most likely considers rape and murder as a good way to pass an
otherwise dull afternoon (Fred and Rosemary West certainly did), so why
deny them the joy of a good slaughter and some unconsensual sex? that
is pretty much what you are saying with your badly thought out
arguments trying to compare declawing to other things.
None of your arguments hold any water, declawing is unnecessary,
painful, sick, disgusting and, as it is in pretty much the rest of the
world, it should be made illegal in the USA.

I cannot reason with you simply because you are too stupid to reason
with.

Charlie Wilkes
January 24th 07, 09:56 AM
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:30:14 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Charlie Wilkes >
>
>>Good luck trading sex
>>for housing.
>
> LOL
> Just what this group needs......ANOTHER angry bitch who thinks her pussy
> was cast in solid gold.
>
She is indeed a cauldron of fury. But I give her high marks for her
candor.

Charlie

IBen Getiner
January 24th 07, 10:41 AM
On Jan 18, 12:45*pm, eDog > wrote:
> Although I am against it, a new and rather expensive leather sofa has
> raised the possibility of declawing my 3 cats.
>
> If I have to get them declawed what is the best way to do it?
>
> What kinds of questions should I ask the vet? What kind of equipment should
> he have/use?
>
> Simply declawing their front paws may not accomplish much with regard to
> protecting the furniture.
>
> Also, I am going to ask in a separate thread:
>
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> --
> Looking for a clue.


Just do it and don't worry about the details. Let the professionals
handle it and take confidence that they know what they're doing. Our
cat was on both occasions totally unaffected by his declawing. Have
faith in medical technology, my boy.. And rest easy. It'll be the best
money you ever spent. Sure beats getting shredded furniture. Or in
worse-case, having to get rid of the cat....


IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner
January 24th 07, 10:51 AM
cybercat wrote:
> "eDog" > wrote
> >
> > If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> > (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?
>
> No.
>
> Don't declaw. All methods are the same--amputation of the last joint
> of the fingers.


Cats don't HAVE fingers, jerk-off...

> I had this done to my first cat, and she became a biter,

Bull****. YOU began to feel unwarranted guilt. That's all. That's
because you're emotionally imbalanced.


> and stopped covering her poop in the cat box.

Maybe you need to change the litter a little more often? That's usually
the problem in this area, you know...

> It deforms their feet

Bull****. Prove that claim.

> and it is not necessary.

The claws are the only thing that is not necessary. That's why we have
them removed.

> I have two cats now, keep their claws trimmed,
> and have no damage at all.


Again, more bull****. I've never been over to the house of a
anti-declaw kook yet where their furniture doesn't look like someone
cut it up for paper dolls. One look and you can tell you've got a
nut-job on your hands.

> Perfect "one-two" strategy: trim claws and
> get stuff they like to scratch more than the sofa. Tall posts (32 inches or
> better) and an Alpine Scratcher work for us.


Perfect one... (and that's it) strategy. GET THE ANIMAL'S CLAWS
REMOVED. They live indoors so they don't need them anymore. I don't
understand why someone would even hesitate. It's just common sense.



IBen

CatNipped
January 24th 07, 03:15 PM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> CatNipped wrote:
>
> <<Oh sure, I forgot, animals don't have nerve endings and so can't feel
> pain like humans can - or is it that since it's an animal in pain it
> doesn't count for as much - or is it that you don't think amputating a
> digit at the first knuckle, and then having to walk on that knuckle,
> wouldn't cause pain???>>
>
> Go back and re-read my comment and you'll find that I didn't say that
> they can't feel pain...what I said was that pet owners project emotions
> that the animals aren't really displaying.

And neither was I, in the original post, saying *anything* about a cat's
emotions - I was stating that they felt horrible physical pain. Most of the
time cats are sent home from the vet after (at the most) 24 hours with *NO*
pain medication. I am simply stating that, just like you or me, cats have
nerve endings and can feel physical pain just as much as you or I could.
Can you get out of your egocentric / humanocentric ideas long enough to
empathize? How do you think it would feel to you, physically, not
emotionally, if someone cut off the ends of all your fingers at the first
knuckle? Would you be ready to go home after 24 hours without pain
medications? And what if you were forced to *walk* on those amputated
digits in order to get to your food or the bathroom?

> An example...when cats sit on peoples' laps and rub their faces on the
> person, they aren't "being lovey", they are marking their territory with
> the oils on their face.

Nowhere have I stated that cats have the same emotions, thoughts, or
motivations as humans do. Indeed, in some cases [pointedly looking at the
poster] those emotions thoughts and motivations are not as base as some
humans' (referencing Scarlett, the mother cat whose eared were burned off as
she went back into a burning warehouse again and again to rescue her
kittens). I am not anthropomorphizing here, I am simply empathizing -
something you seem to have a problem with. I don't need to feel that cats
are the same as humans, I admire them as the beautiful, perfect predators
that thousands of years of evolution have made them to be.

> <<Since you obviously know so little about cats, let me clue you in - cats
> are one of the most stoic creatures on earth, in fact all predators have
> to be pretty stoic since, in the wild, they would either starve to death
> or be the victims of other carnivores if they gave in to their pain.>>
>
> One reason that responsible pet owners wouldn't put a completely
> domesticated animal in "the wild" situations, yet most pet owners are far
> from responsible, choosing instead to think it "cute" when Fluffy or Fido
> go next door to do their business in the neighbors yard, then neglect to
> clean up afterward.
> Adventure still goes out bird-hunting, but when she's done, she brings
> it to the front door and leaves it there, choosing instead to come in and
> eat cat food indoors where it's warm. And we live in the country, where
> she can go roaming without causing accidents by crossing busy streets or
> highways (an aside, a few years back a woman actually swerved to miss a
> dog during rush hour traffic not far from here and ended up choosing
> instead a head-on collision, killing two of the occupants in the other
> car...how someone can choose to risk other peoples' lives over those of an
> animal, any animal, is baffling, IMO).

What is amazing and distressing to me is that some pet owners are so
irresponsible as to let their pets roam to become a danger to themselves,
the neighborhood wildlife, and other people.

> <<What I really think is going on with you, however, is that you're
> minimalizing the pain you put your cat through. I can understand that -
> if you acknowledged the pain you caused you might feel a pinch from your
> conscience, so you *have* to deny the fact that you put your cat through
> unnecessary pain because you thought more about an inanimate piece of
> furniture than a sentient creature.>>
>
> Keep thinking. I remember quite clearly the entire "ordeal", and there
> was simply no "ordeal". I see now, though, that you can't accept that
> someone actually had a smooth and non-traumatic experience with the
> procedure and feel the need to make up the experience with a different
> outcome that fits what you desire.
> The bottom line is that one can't definitively state that the procedure
> is "always" bad for the animal, but I doubt that you'll be one to agree
> with that conclusion, even when presented with a case contrary to your
> opinion.

Yes, one can. It is *NEVER* a good idea to mutilate a living being for the
sake of inanimate objects.

CatNipped

> --
> Jim Comfort
> Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
> Math Minor
>

bookie
January 24th 07, 07:54 PM
On 24 Jan, 08:56, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:30:14 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> > From: Charlie Wilkes >
>
> >>Good luck trading sex
> >>for housing.
>
> > LOL
> > Just what this group needs......ANOTHER angry bitch who thinks her pussy
> > was cast in solid gold.She is indeed a cauldron of fury. But I give her high marks for her
> candor.
>
> Charlie

ha ha, i am far too old to be angry anymore, I am just resigned to the
way the world works now and accept it. I am certainly not going tobe
trading sex for housing, I woudl only have to do that if iw ere to stay
in tecahing and put up with it's lousy salaries, but i am getting out
and aiming for a better job so i can buy my own roof over my head,

I don't particularly want to be beholden to anyone for my shelter, male
or female

Theodore
January 24th 07, 07:55 PM
On Jan 18, 11:45 am, eDog > wrote:
> If I keep my cats nails trimmed short will they still be able to
> (unintentionally) damage my leather sofa?

I didn't read all 106 replies, so forgive me if this was mentioned:
Try Sticky Paws. It's a transparent double-face tape that comes in
sheets. It stopped our cats from scratching the leather sofa, and they
even stay away from it now that the Sticky Paws is removed.

bookie
January 24th 07, 07:59 PM
On 24 Jan, 14:15, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "Jim Comfort" > wrote in messagenews:[email protected] hia.com...
>
> > CatNipped wrote:
>
> > <<Oh sure, I forgot, animals don't have nerve endings and so can't feel
> > pain like humans can - or is it that since it's an animal in pain it
> > doesn't count for as much - or is it that you don't think amputating a
> > digit at the first knuckle, and then having to walk on that knuckle,
> > wouldn't cause pain???>>
>
> > Go back and re-read my comment and you'll find that I didn't say that
> > they can't feel pain...what I said was that pet owners project emotions
> > that the animals aren't really displaying.And neither was I, in the original post, saying *anything* about a cat's
> emotions - I was stating that they felt horrible physical pain. Most of the
> time cats are sent home from the vet after (at the most) 24 hours with *NO*
> pain medication. I am simply stating that, just like you or me, cats have
> nerve endings and can feel physical pain just as much as you or I could.
> Can you get out of your egocentric / humanocentric ideas long enough to
> empathize? How do you think it would feel to you, physically, not
> emotionally, if someone cut off the ends of all your fingers at the first
> knuckle? Would you be ready to go home after 24 hours without pain
> medications? And what if you were forced to *walk* on those amputated
> digits in order to get to your food or the bathroom?
>
> > An example...when cats sit on peoples' laps and rub their faces on the
> > person, they aren't "being lovey", they are marking their territory with
> > the oils on their face.Nowhere have I stated that cats have the same emotions, thoughts, or
> motivations as humans do. Indeed, in some cases [pointedly looking at the
> poster] those emotions thoughts and motivations are not as base as some
> humans' (referencing Scarlett, the mother cat whose eared were burned off as
> she went back into a burning warehouse again and again to rescue her
> kittens). I am not anthropomorphizing here, I am simply empathizing -
> something you seem to have a problem with. I don't need to feel that cats
> are the same as humans, I admire them as the beautiful, perfect predators
> that thousands of years of evolution have made them to be.
>
>
>
>
>
> > <<Since you obviously know so little about cats, let me clue you in - cats
> > are one of the most stoic creatures on earth, in fact all predators have
> > to be pretty stoic since, in the wild, they would either starve to death
> > or be the victims of other carnivores if they gave in to their pain.>>
>
> > One reason that responsible pet owners wouldn't put a completely
> > domesticated animal in "the wild" situations, yet most pet owners are far
> > from responsible, choosing instead to think it "cute" when Fluffy or Fido
> > go next door to do their business in the neighbors yard, then neglect to
> > clean up afterward.
> > Adventure still goes out bird-hunting, but when she's done, she brings
> > it to the front door and leaves it there, choosing instead to come in and
> > eat cat food indoors where it's warm. And we live in the country, where
> > she can go roaming without causing accidents by crossing busy streets or
> > highways (an aside, a few years back a woman actually swerved to miss a
> > dog during rush hour traffic not far from here and ended up choosing
> > instead a head-on collision, killing two of the occupants in the other
> > car...how someone can choose to risk other peoples' lives over those of an
> > animal, any animal, is baffling, IMO).What is amazing and distressing to me is that some pet owners are so
> irresponsible as to let their pets roam to become a danger to themselves,
> the neighborhood wildlife, and other people.
>
>
>
>
>
> > <<What I really think is going on with you, however, is that you're
> > minimalizing the pain you put your cat through. I can understand that -
> > if you acknowledged the pain you caused you might feel a pinch from your
> > conscience, so you *have* to deny the fact that you put your cat through
> > unnecessary pain because you thought more about an inanimate piece of
> > furniture than a sentient creature.>>
>
> > Keep thinking. I remember quite clearly the entire "ordeal", and there
> > was simply no "ordeal". I see now, though, that you can't accept that
> > someone actually had a smooth and non-traumatic experience with the
> > procedure and feel the need to make up the experience with a different
> > outcome that fits what you desire.
> > The bottom line is that one can't definitively state that the procedure
> > is "always" bad for the animal, but I doubt that you'll be one to agree
> > with that conclusion, even when presented with a case contrary to your
> > opinion.Yes, one can. It is *NEVER* a good idea to mutilate a living being for the
> sake of inanimate objects.
>
> CatNipped
>
>
>
save your breath, the guy is obviously a **** and a pompous, arrogant,
sadistic, verging on the psychotic one at that, trying to justify
inflicting unnecessary pain and harm on innocent creatures.

lets just hope that karma comes round to get him, cos what goes around
comes around

Jim Comfort
January 25th 07, 12:00 AM
This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing to
eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my observations
factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show no adverse
reactions to the procedure?
Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post full
of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
speechless.

--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

bookie
January 25th 07, 12:48 AM
On 24 Jan, 23:00, "Jim Comfort" > wrote:
> This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
> directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing to
> eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
> didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my observations
> factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show no adverse
> reactions to the procedure?
> Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post full
> of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
> persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
> speechless.
>
unlike your cats, who remain toe-less, claw-less and protection-less

Jim Comfort
January 25th 07, 01:32 AM
Huh???

--
Jim Comfort
Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
Math Minor

cybercat
January 25th 07, 02:08 AM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> Huh???
>

To whom are you replying?

With your most unobjectionable comment yet?

Charlie Wilkes
January 25th 07, 02:58 AM
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:54:31 -0800, bookie wrote:
>
> ha ha, i am far too old to be angry anymore, I am just resigned to the
> way the world works now and accept it. I am certainly not going tobe
> trading sex for housing, I woudl only have to do that if iw ere to stay
> in tecahing and put up with it's lousy salaries, but i am getting out
> and aiming for a better job so i can buy my own roof over my head,
>
> I don't particularly want to be beholden to anyone for my shelter, male
> or female

Hmmm. As soon as I praise your candor, you begin to backpeddle and
dissemble. That will teach me not to stick my neck out.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
January 25th 07, 03:09 AM
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:00:47 -0800, Jim Comfort wrote:

> This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
> directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing to
> eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
> didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my observations
> factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show no adverse
> reactions to the procedure?
> Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post full
> of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
> persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
> speechless.
>
Cat lovers tend to feel the practice of declawing is a moral abomination,
a procedure that inflicts pain on the animal and also deprives it of
something fundamental to its nature. So, if you want to argue in favor of
declawing, you will have to have a thick skin.

I'm not rabidly emotional about the subject, but I would refrain
from declawing a cat myself. Cats (or animals in general) cannot
articulate their physical and emotional feelings the way people can. An
animal may look quite contented when, in fact, it is in considerable
discomfort with a serious health problem. This much I have observed
directly.

Charlie

CatNipped
January 25th 07, 06:28 PM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...
> This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
> directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing to
> eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
> didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my
> observations factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show
> no adverse reactions to the procedure?
> Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post
> full of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
> persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
> speechless.

Aside from making some obvious character assumptions from the words you
posted here, I have not made a personal attack on you. Indeed, I have been
trying my hardest to make you understand that what you have done, and are
advocating doing, is wrong - morally, ethically, and, in most civilized
nations, legally. Please point out to me where I have attacked you
personally?

CatNipped

> --
> Jim Comfort
> Professional Student -- Computer Science Major
> Math Minor
>

CatNipped
January 25th 07, 06:33 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:00:47 -0800, Jim Comfort wrote:
>
>> This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
>> directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing
>> to
>> eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
>> didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my
>> observations
>> factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show no adverse
>> reactions to the procedure?
>> Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post
>> full
>> of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
>> persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
>> speechless.
>>
> Cat lovers tend to feel the practice of declawing is a moral abomination,
> a procedure that inflicts pain on the animal and also deprives it of
> something fundamental to its nature. So, if you want to argue in favor of
> declawing, you will have to have a thick skin.
>
> I'm not rabidly emotional about the subject, but I would refrain
> from declawing a cat myself. Cats (or animals in general) cannot
> articulate their physical and emotional feelings the way people can. An
> animal may look quite contented when, in fact, it is in considerable
> discomfort with a serious health problem. This much I have observed
> directly.
>
> Charlie

Thank you, Charlie, for a balanced, reasoned, and non-emotional observation
regarding this issue. I do indeed get a bit overwrought when thinking about
causing pain to a helpless animal (you would say it is the wont of my sex to
do so and I won't gainsay that observation but *will* say that I don't think
there's anything wrong with that ;>) - I won't apologize for that fervor,
especially if it will cause even one person to rethink having this barbaric
mutilation performed on an animal entrusted to his/her care.

I don't think you have to anthropomorphize in order to empathize with any
creature who has nerve endings that work the same as our own.

Hugs,

CatNipped

bookie
January 25th 07, 08:28 PM
On 25 Jan, 17:28, "CatNipped" > wrote:
> "Jim Comfort" > wrote in messagenews:[email protected] hia.com...
>
> > This is for Bookie and CatNipped. Have I resorted to personal attacks
> > directed at either of you in relaying my experience regarding declawing to
> > eDog? Because if I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize. If I
> > didn't, can you lose the personal attacks and either refute my
> > observations factually, or accept that, at least in some cases, cats show
> > no adverse reactions to the procedure?
> > Specifically for Bookie, thanks yet again for another brilliant post
> > full of fact-based material presented in a professional manner designed to
> > persuade me that I am mistaken by raising skilled debate points. I'm
> > speechless.Aside from making some obvious character assumptions from the words you
> posted here, I have not made a personal attack on you. Indeed, I have been
> trying my hardest to make you understand that what you have done, and are
> advocating doing, is wrong - morally, ethically, and, in most civilized
> nations, legally. Please point out to me where I have attacked you
> personally?
>
> CatNipped
>
I cease to care if i have ****ed him off, he ****ed me off and upset me
by showing his support for animal abuse (which declawing basically is),
and like I said before I have given up trying to reason politely with
people like this, hence the abusive outburst. If my outburst caused jim
'comfort' even a little pain and upset then tough ****, it will be
nothing compared to the immense amounts of agony and distress he
inflicted on that poor cat who he had declawed.

remember; if you can't do the time, don't do the crime

bookie

Phil P.
January 26th 07, 06:28 AM
"Jim Comfort" > wrote in message
...

> chances are they would make it through the experience

Even if the cat "makes it through" the hideous experience of declawing, that
doesn't justify putting a cat through such a repulsive experience- not to
mention the deprivation that follows. Cats scratch because they *enjoy* it-
it *feels good*.


>And for those who are telling eDog to dump the wife in favor of animals,
well...so much for wedding vows and meaning what you
> say...'nuff said.

"nuff said"? lmao! Better get out of that classroom once in awhile and into
the real world, kiddo-- people get divorced- everyday- for a lot less.

Who would want to be with a person that had a higher regard for a piece of
furniture
than her partner's wishes and beliefs- not to mention the cat?

Millions of people around the world manage to live in harmony with their
fully cats-- but you can't? If you're not smart enough to teach a cat where
to scratch, and/or you're too lazy or inept to trim claws, you probably
shouldn't have a cat. Choose another species that isn't smarter than you.

http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Lynne
January 26th 07, 11:52 PM
on Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:28:25 GMT, "Phil P." > wrote:

> Choose another species that isn't smarter than you.

I recommend the stuffed variety.

--
Lynne