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View Full Version : Houston Humane Society is advertising front paw declawing!!


MaryL
February 11th 07, 06:36 PM
This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston Humane
Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
"Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a *reduced
rate for front paw declawing*):

"We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There will
be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be declawing
only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60 (front paws
only)."

The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
helping him live a longer, healthier life."
In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
mutilating his front feet.

I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. You can
see the flyer advertising this "special"
here: http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:



I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.


--
MaryL

Cat Protector
February 11th 07, 06:50 PM
Believe it or not they're advertising this on their web site as well. Very
disgusting that they are promoting declawing.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
>
> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston Humane
> Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
> (front paws only)."
>
> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
> mutilating his front feet.
>
> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. You
> can see the flyer advertising this "special"
> here: http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
> pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
> And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:
>
>
>
> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
> with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
> society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.
>
>
> --
> MaryL
>
>
>
>

MaryL
February 11th 07, 07:00 PM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
>
> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston Humane
> Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
> (front paws only)."
>
> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
> mutilating his front feet.
>
> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. You
> can see the flyer advertising this "special"
> here: http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
> pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
> And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:
>
>
>
> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
> with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
> society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.
>
> --
> MaryL

Once again, I let my fingers move faster than my brain. The Houston Humane
Society is not advertising a "special rate" on declawing. The special is
for free neutering, but declawing can also be done at the "regular rate" of
$60.00. If anything, though, that makes it *even worse* to think that the
Humane Society would think of declawing as a "normal" thing to do and would
even sponsor it. I think I am going to be sick!!

--
MaryL

MaryL
February 11th 07, 07:05 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Believe it or not they're advertising this on their web site as well. Very
> disgusting that they are promoting declawing.
>
> --
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>


Please note that the link I posted is to the Houston Humane Society. As was
discussed in this NG earlier, local groups usually are not part of the HSUS
itself. I went to the HSUS page and could not find anything similar. In
fact, there are a number of links there in opposition to declawing:
http://www.hsus.org/
http://www.hsus.org/search.jsp

--
MaryL

Cat Protector
February 11th 07, 07:20 PM
Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting. The
Arizona Humane Society from what I've recalled has commented that they don't
promote nor support declawing. Usually they try to educate people on what is
involved with declawing.

Yesterday, I was at one of the Petsmarts and a guy came in and asked Paw
Placement about adopting a cat. When the question came up on how the guy
feels about declawing, the guy said he supports it and that when adopting he
will declaw the cat in order to protect is $15,000 couch. Anyone more
worried about their couch or other object than the safety and well being of
the animal shouldn't be allowed to adopt a cat. He walked away and most
likely is going to try and find a group that will allow him mutilate the
cat. Paw Placement has an anti-declaw policy in the adoption contract and if
someone declaws a cat from their organization, they have the right to seize
the cat.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
>> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston
>> Humane Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
>> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
>> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>>
>> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
>> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
>> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
>> (front paws only)."
>>
>> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
>> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
>> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
>> mutilating his front feet.
>>
>> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. You
>> can see the flyer advertising this "special"
>> here: http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
>> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
>> pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
>> And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
>> with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
>> society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.
>>
>> --
>> MaryL
>
> Once again, I let my fingers move faster than my brain. The Houston
> Humane Society is not advertising a "special rate" on declawing. The
> special is for free neutering, but declawing can also be done at the
> "regular rate" of $60.00. If anything, though, that makes it *even worse*
> to think that the Humane Society would think of declawing as a "normal"
> thing to do and would even sponsor it. I think I am going to be sick!!
>
> --
> MaryL
>
>

MaryL
February 11th 07, 07:27 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
> with declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty
> disgusting. The Arizona Humane Society from what I've recalled has
> commented that they don't promote nor support declawing. Usually they try
> to educate people on what is involved with declawing.
>
>>
> --
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
>

Yes, but I walked into the same trap as we discussed on this newsgroup
several days ago. That is, I failed to differentiate between HSUS and local
Humane Societies. In this case, the flyer comes specifically from the
Houston Humane Society. The HSUS site discusses "Spay Day" in February, but
nothing about declawing.

MaryL

Cheryl
February 11th 07, 07:37 PM
On Sun 11 Feb 2007 01:36:48p, MaryL wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
>:

>
>
> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of
> the HSUS practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what
> the Houston Humane Society (note: Houston, not the national
> HSUS) is advertising as a "Valentine's Day special" for cats
> (free neutering accompanied by a *reduced rate for front paw
> declawing*):
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day.
> There will be no general public surgery-other than the male
> cats. We will be declawing only a small amount of male cats for
> the normal price of $60 (front paws only)."
>
> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's
> Day by helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love
> him by mutilating his front feet.
>
> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I
> think. You can see the flyer advertising this "special"
> here: http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and
> receive pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
> And here is the email address they listed for support and
> donations:
>
>
> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats'
> newsgroups with this message because I think it is such an
> abomination for a "humane society" to perform declawing, and I
> hope some of you will write or call.
>
>

Disgusting. I'm saving the email address and will send them my
outrage. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Mary.

--
Cheryl

Rhonda
February 11th 07, 07:41 PM
I just sent them an email!

Hope they get a few hundred more...

Rhonda

MaryL wrote:
> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> practices, but this is absolutely revolting.

Charlie Wilkes
February 11th 07, 09:41 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:

> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.

Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
satisfactory domestic pet, right?

Charlie

cybercat
February 11th 07, 09:58 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
m...
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
>> with
>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>

No, not primarily for that reason. It is done to prevent breeding, as there
are so many unwanted animals now.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Dan Espen
February 11th 07, 10:05 PM
Charlie Wilkes > writes:

> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
> satisfactory domestic pet, right?

Don't try logic, it won't work.

I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
(Before the cat gets to it.)

Ivor Jones
February 11th 07, 10:06 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
in message
m
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
> > Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but
> > to bunch that in with declawing a cat as a way to
> > promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a
> pretty substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make
> the animal into a more satisfactory domestic pet, right?

It's done to help reduce the sheer number of cats in the world. You do
realise that one tom can be responsible for over 20,000 descendants in a
single year, right..?

Ivor

Charlie Wilkes
February 11th 07, 11:01 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:06:36 +0000, Ivor Jones wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
> in message
> m
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but
>> > to bunch that in with declawing a cat as a way to
>> > promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>
>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a
>> pretty substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make
>> the animal into a more satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> It's done to help reduce the sheer number of cats in the world. You do
> realise that one tom can be responsible for over 20,000 descendants in a
> single year, right..?
>
> Ivor

So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?

Charlie

janette ducharme
February 11th 07, 11:18 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, "Cat Protector"
> wrote:

>in order to protect is $15,000 couch.

Who spends $15,000 on a couch? Around here there are places where you
can get good quality leather couches for under $1500.

You show me soneone who spends $15,000 on a couch and i'll show you
someone who got taken to the cleaners.

If you're spending $15,000 on a couch you need your head examined.

cybercat
February 11th 07, 11:36 PM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
>>> with
>>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>
>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
>> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> Don't try logic, it won't work.
>
> I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> (Before the cat gets to it.)

Ass.

cybercat
February 11th 07, 11:36 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>
> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>

Hmm, good point.

Wendy
February 12th 07, 12:21 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
.. .
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:06:36 +0000, Ivor Jones wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote
>> in message
>> m
>>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>>
>>> > Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but
>>> > to bunch that in with declawing a cat as a way to
>>> > promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a
>>> pretty substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make
>>> the animal into a more satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>>
>> It's done to help reduce the sheer number of cats in the world. You do
>> realise that one tom can be responsible for over 20,000 descendants in a
>> single year, right..?
>>
>> Ivor
>
> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>
> Charlie

Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating (even
thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the opportunity
because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to keep in or
around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off looking for some
'action'. This would also put him at risk of meeting up with what my vet
told me is 25% of the stray population that is testing positive for feline
AIDS and/or Leukemia. From the point of actually living with him the stench
from the box would be a real joy and he'd be a bit of a lousy neighbor
because of his inclination to 'mark' the neighbors house, porch and/or
bushes while marking his territory. If his mommy and daddy displease him or
try bringing in another cat he's likely to mark every doorway in the house
while marking that territory too.

A un-spayed female wouldn't be any more of a picnic to live with. Although
she probably wouldn't do much marking the howling and yowling while rubbing
up against anything that doesn't move away fast enough could be a bit of a
distraction. Getting out of the house without little Fluffy following to see
if she could 'score' could be challenging. Her chances of developing breast
cancer is increased as are the possibility of hefty vet bills when she runs
into 'female' troubles.

Both would have shorter lives because I don't think sweet Mother Nature had
a 15 - 20 year life span in mind.

W

Cat Protector
February 12th 07, 12:33 AM
Who is this ass? Any thinking person would have figured out that I said
spaying/neutering is ok but not declawing by claiming it too is good for a
cat's health.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
>>> with
>>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>
>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
>> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> Don't try logic, it won't work.
>
> I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> (Before the cat gets to it.)

Ryan Robbins
February 12th 07, 01:57 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
>
> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston Humane
> Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
> (front paws only)."
>
> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
> mutilating his front feet.

I'm against declawing, too. But you have grossly misrepresented the ad. The
ad says nothing about a reduced rate for declawing. The "Valentine's Day"
special is for neutering.

Ryan Robbins
February 12th 07, 01:58 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
> with declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty
> disgusting.

The ad says nothing of the sort.

MaryL
February 12th 07, 02:12 AM
"Ryan Robbins" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
>> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston
>> Humane Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
>> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
>> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>>
>> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
>> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
>> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
>> (front paws only)."
>>
>> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
>> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
>> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
>> mutilating his front feet.
>
> I'm against declawing, too. But you have grossly misrepresented the ad.
> The ad says nothing about a reduced rate for declawing. The "Valentine's
> Day" special is for neutering.
>
>
>

That's correct. I posted a follow-up just a few minutes after the first
message in which I said this: Once again, I let my fingers move faster than
my brain. The Houston Humane Society is not advertising a "special rate" on
declawing. The special is for free neutering, but declawing can also be
done at the "regular rate" of $60.00. If anything, though, that makes it
*even worse* to think that the Humane Society would think of declawing as a
"normal" thing to do and would even sponsor it. I think I am going to be
sick!!

I also posted a message to make it clear that this was the Houston Humane
Society only and not the HSUS. The HSUS has a number of articles and links
on their site *in opposition to* declawing.

MaryL

Cat Protector
February 12th 07, 03:13 AM
It doesn't? You mean you didn't see they have a $60 declaw special as a part
of this package? Obviously, you didn't read the page at all.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"Ryan Robbins" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> The ad says nothing of the sort.
>
>
>

Cat Protector
February 12th 07, 03:17 AM
Well, the page says the following

"We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There will
be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be declawing
only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60 (front paws
only). Each client will be allowed to bring a maximum of 5 male cats."

This shows without a shadow of a doubt they are pro-declaw and by stating
the above they are indeed advertising that they do perform declaws. Any
listing on a web site for service is an advertisement.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Ryan Robbins" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> This is disgusting! I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
>>> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. Read what the Houston
>>> Humane Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as
>>> a "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
>>> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>>>
>>> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
>>> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
>>> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
>>> (front paws only)."
>>>
>>> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
>>> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
>>> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
>>> mutilating his front feet.
>>
>> I'm against declawing, too. But you have grossly misrepresented the ad.
>> The ad says nothing about a reduced rate for declawing. The "Valentine's
>> Day" special is for neutering.
>>
>>
>>
>
> That's correct. I posted a follow-up just a few minutes after the first
> message in which I said this: Once again, I let my fingers move faster
> than my brain. The Houston Humane Society is not advertising a "special
> rate" on declawing. The special is for free neutering, but declawing can
> also be done at the "regular rate" of $60.00. If anything, though, that
> makes it *even worse* to think that the Humane Society would think of
> declawing as a "normal" thing to do and would even sponsor it. I think I
> am going to be sick!!
>
> I also posted a message to make it clear that this was the Houston Humane
> Society only and not the HSUS. The HSUS has a number of articles and
> links on their site *in opposition to* declawing.
>
> MaryL
>
>
>

MaryL
February 12th 07, 03:32 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Well, the page says the following
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
> (front paws only). Each client will be allowed to bring a maximum of 5
> male cats."
>
> This shows without a shadow of a doubt they are pro-declaw and by stating
> the above they are indeed advertising that they do perform declaws. Any
> listing on a web site for service is an advertisement.
>
> --
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
Of course, it's pro-declaw. Even worse, they are *sponsoring* it --
absolutely disgusting, as I said earlier. However, the price of $60.00 is
not a special. It's their normal price (which makes it even worse because
the *inhumane* Houston Humane Society apparently sees declawing as
"normal").

MaryL

Charlie Wilkes
February 12th 07, 04:02 AM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:21:10 -0500, Wendy wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>
>> Charlie
>
> Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating
> (even thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the
> opportunity because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to
> keep in or around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off
> looking for some 'action'.

This is my point -- the neutering is done for the convenience of the
owner, as much as for any other reason. Certainly it alters the nature of
the cat at the most basic level, substantially changing its behavior and
its temperament.

I will grant that de-sexing reduces the tendency of cats to engage in
high-risk behavior, and so it extends their lives. But what is more
important -- quantity or quality of life? I have followed the declawing
debate in this group a number of times. One of the arguments
against declawing is that it deprives a cat of something fundamental to
its nature, and therefore diminishes its quality of life. But the people
with declawed cats deny that this is the case. They say their pets seem
happy and contented, to which the anti-declawers respond by saying it's an
illusion; cats are good at masking their suffering. If that is true, then
how can the anti-declawers assure themselves that neutering doesn't have a
similar effect?

Charlie

Cat Protector
February 12th 07, 04:41 AM
Which is why I posted what I did. The reason I called it a special is
because they seemingly packaged it together with the free neuter surgery.

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"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Well, the page says the following
>>
>> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. There
>> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. We will be
>> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
>> (front paws only). Each client will be allowed to bring a maximum of 5
>> male cats."
>>
>> This shows without a shadow of a doubt they are pro-declaw and by stating
>> the above they are indeed advertising that they do perform declaws. Any
>> listing on a web site for service is an advertisement.
>>
>> --
>> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>
> Of course, it's pro-declaw. Even worse, they are *sponsoring* it --
> absolutely disgusting, as I said earlier. However, the price of $60.00 is
> not a special. It's their normal price (which makes it even worse because
> the *inhumane* Houston Humane Society apparently sees declawing as
> "normal").
>
> MaryL
>

William Graham
February 12th 07, 05:20 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
..

>> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
>> helping him live a longer, healthier life."

......Unless he/she happens to run into a big dog......

William Graham
February 12th 07, 05:28 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
m...
>

Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> Charlie

No. It's mainly done to keep the world from becoming covered with starving
cats, and it doesn't hurt the cats at all.....Unlike human beings they know
not what they are missing. Also, and more to the point, it doesn't interfere
with their ability to protect themselves from dogs, raccoons, and other
predatory animals.....

William Graham
February 12th 07, 05:34 AM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
>>> with
>>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>
>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
>> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> Don't try logic, it won't work.
>
> I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> (Before the cat gets to it.)

Anyone who can afford a $15,000 couch can afford to get it recovered every
few years.....My four cats all attack our two couches from time to time, and
the wear and tear over the course of the last 8 years or so is too minimal
to worry about. If you are going to keep a pet, then you should learn to
live with its character and peculiarities.....If you want a fawning,
whining, creature that treats you like the God of the universe, then you
should get a dog.....:^)

William Graham
February 12th 07, 05:39 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
news:6fNzh.66728>

So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>
> Charlie

You can do that....For over $1000 per cat. But even for that, it won't help
the cats tendency to wander a long way from home, and annoy the trailer park
neighbors down the hill, who will shoot it with their 22 rifles and BB guns,
so your $1000 investment will just end up killing the cat anyway....The
average male feral cat only lives about 5 years.......

William Graham
February 12th 07, 05:43 AM
"janette ducharme" <janetteNO > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, "Cat Protector"
> > wrote:
>
>>in order to protect is $15,000 couch.
>
> Who spends $15,000 on a couch? Around here there are places where you
> can get good quality leather couches for under $1500.
>
> You show me soneone who spends $15,000 on a couch and i'll show you
> someone who got taken to the cleaners.
>
> If you're spending $15,000 on a couch you need your head examined.
>
>
And no cat wants to be owned by an insane person.......:^)

Charlie Wilkes
February 12th 07, 09:12 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:28:31 -0800, William Graham wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a more
>> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>>
>> Charlie
>
> No. It's mainly done to keep the world from becoming covered with starving
> cats, and it doesn't hurt the cats at all.....Unlike human beings they know
> not what they are missing.

Did you read my comments on this point?

Charlie

Captain Bob
February 12th 07, 09:48 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:34:12 -0800
"William Graham" > wrote:

> ....If you want a fawning, whining, creature that
> treats you like the God of the universe, then you should get a
> dog.....:^)
>

Or a castrated man-slave :-)

Bob

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Captain Bob
February 12th 07, 09:58 PM
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:06:36 -0000
"Ivor Jones" > wrote:

> It's done to help reduce the sheer number of cats in the world.

Actually, it's done to absolve humans of any responsibility towards
their captive animal friends. It is soly for the connivance of the
Human.

> do realise that one tom can be responsible for over 20,000
> descendants in a single year, right..?

Your argument is only valid if you are talking about spay/neuter of
stray/feral cats. It is NOT the strays who are being mutilated, but
rather the house cats.

Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
proper homes or by making them part of the family.

Bob

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Cat Protector
February 12th 07, 10:07 PM
Can you actually repost this? Your message came across blank.

--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"Captain Bob" > wrote in message
...

William Graham
February 12th 07, 10:35 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:28:31 -0800, William Graham wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>
>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>>> substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make the animal into a
>>> more
>>> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> No. It's mainly done to keep the world from becoming covered with
>> starving
>> cats, and it doesn't hurt the cats at all.....Unlike human beings they
>> know
>> not what they are missing.
>
> Did you read my comments on this point?
>
> Charlie

I read them, and I disagree with them.

William Graham
February 12th 07, 10:43 PM
"Captain Bob" > wrote in message
...

Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
proper homes or by making them part of the family.

Bob

To keep a non-neutered animal away from sexual activity when they are "in
season" is cruel and unnecessary....Why not have your female spayed?

My two females are spayed, and my male is neutered, and they are perfectly
happy, and stay close to the house, since there is no reason for them to
wander. This greatly decreases the probability that they will get run down
by a car or killed by some gun-toting teenager....We do feed a male feral
cat who isn't neutered, but he belongs to himself, and not to us. If I ever
feel that he is "mine", then I will trap him and have him neutered.

cybercat
February 12th 07, 10:52 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Captain Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
> any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
> kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
> proper homes or by making them part of the family.
>
> Bob
>
> To keep a non-neutered animal away from sexual activity when they are "in
> season" is cruel and unnecessary....Why not have your female spayed?
>
> My two females are spayed, and my male is neutered, and they are perfectly
> happy, and stay close to the house, since there is no reason for them to
> wander. This greatly decreases the probability that they will get run down
> by a car or killed by some gun-toting teenager....We do feed a male feral
> cat who isn't neutered, but he belongs to himself, and not to us. If I
> ever feel that he is "mine", then I will trap him and have him neutered.
>
Arguing with idiots makes your face tired.

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 12:10 AM
Bob, get that cat spayed. All it takes is her getting out and one encounter
to have a litter of kittens. By not having a cat spayed or neutered you will
only be adding to the overpopulation problem. Feral cats should also be
spayed and neutered as soon as possible. Last year was a record breaking cat
and kitten season with many unwanted litters being born. Many rescue groups
were overwhelmed by felines were filled to capacity. BTW, since you are
feeding the feral cat you have a responsibility to have him neutered unless
you want him spraying all over the place.

--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Captain Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
> any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
> kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
> proper homes or by making them part of the family.
>
> Bob
>
> To keep a non-neutered animal away from sexual activity when they are "in
> season" is cruel and unnecessary....Why not have your female spayed?
>
> My two females are spayed, and my male is neutered, and they are perfectly
> happy, and stay close to the house, since there is no reason for them to
> wander. This greatly decreases the probability that they will get run down
> by a car or killed by some gun-toting teenager....We do feed a male feral
> cat who isn't neutered, but he belongs to himself, and not to us. If I
> ever feel that he is "mine", then I will trap him and have him neutered.
>

William Graham
February 13th 07, 12:18 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Bob, get that cat spayed. All it takes is her getting out and one
> encounter to have a litter of kittens. By not having a cat spayed or
> neutered you will only be adding to the overpopulation problem. Feral cats
> should also be spayed and neutered as soon as possible. Last year was a
> record breaking cat and kitten season with many unwanted litters being
> born. Many rescue groups were overwhelmed by felines were filled to
> capacity. BTW, since you are feeding the feral cat you have a
> responsibility to have him neutered unless you want him spraying all over
> the place.
>
This is easy to say, but hard to do. If I were to catch Smokey and throw him
in a cat carrier, and take him to the Vet to get neutered, he might never
come to our house again. I would be happy to pay somebody else to do it for
me, so Smokey wouldn't associate his bad experience with me or my wife, but
the various "Feral cat coalitions" and other such organizations won't do
that....They just repeat things like you said above, which I know to be
true, but it doesn't help my problem.

cybercat
February 13th 07, 12:40 AM
"William Graham" > wrote
> This is easy to say, but hard to do. If I were to catch Smokey and throw
> him in a cat carrier, and take him to the Vet to get neutered, he might
> never come to our house again.

Nonsense. Shame on you.

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 01:41 AM
Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have the
cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in your area
that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral cats? As for bad
experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat that has had a
tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or neutered and then
re-released back in the area they were found.

If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be because
they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be kind enough
to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs volunteers are often
in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they are often asked to help.

If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd advise
you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the clinic to have
the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be solved by trying to
take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps you should contact
Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their web addy is
www.alleycat.org.


--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..

> This is easy to say, but hard to do. If I were to catch Smokey and throw
> him in a cat carrier, and take him to the Vet to get neutered, he might
> never come to our house again. I would be happy to pay somebody else to do
> it for me, so Smokey wouldn't associate his bad experience with me or my
> wife, but the various "Feral cat coalitions" and other such organizations
> won't do that....They just repeat things like you said above, which I know
> to be true, but it doesn't help my problem.
>

~*Connie*~
February 13th 07, 01:42 AM
>>> > Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but
>>> > to bunch that in with declawing a cat as a way to
>>> > promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a
>>> pretty substantial form of mutilation. It's done to make
>>> the animal into a more satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>>
>> It's done to help reduce the sheer number of cats in the world. You do
>> realise that one tom can be responsible for over 20,000 descendants in a
>> single year, right..?
>>
>> Ivor
>
> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>
> Charlie

Since you seem to be looking for reasons why neutering a pet is good for its
health, let me tell you that a vasectomy doesn't cut it (no pun intended -
but it is a good one) as it might rejoin.. also you will still need to worry
about testicular cancer... no testicles, no cancer.

And yes, neutering does make a pet more satisfactory pet.. and frankly it
seems to make the pet happier, as it no longer has to spend the rest of it's
life fighting for territory and mating rights, no longer has to spend its
days spraying and marking territory. Doesn't need to wander around to make
sure no one else is edging in on said territory..

You want a cat that doesn't look 'mutilated' get neuticles. That way if
your pet ever gets lost and ends up in a shelter, it will have to go through
surgery again when the shelter doesn't realize the pet is altered..

Declawing - that is a whole different kettle of fish. There weren't any
studies for years about the negative effects of declawing a cat. Now there
are, and they are showing it causes all kinds of health and behavioral
issues, including arthritis. It always amazed me that declawing a cat was
perfectly acceptable, but declawing a dog was heresy. Every time I bring it
up, people defend dogs, and say they don't do damage with their claws, but I
have seen a wide variety of damage done by dog claws on floors, on doors,
etc.

~*Connie*~
February 13th 07, 01:48 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Captain Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
> any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
> kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
> proper homes or by making them part of the family.
>
> Bob

well then, that is six other kittens that won't find those homes who will be
killed, because you refused to spend 100$ and do the responsible thing.

I pray your poor Tania doesn't get a pyometra, or cancer of the uterus, or
of the mammary glands after so many heat cycles.. It is hard on her poor
body. and for what?

William Graham
February 13th 07, 01:55 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have
> the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in your
> area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral cats? As
> for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat that has
> had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or neutered and then
> re-released back in the area they were found.
>
> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be because
> they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be kind enough
> to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs volunteers are often
> in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they are often asked to help.
>
> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the clinic
> to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be solved by
> trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps you should
> contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their web addy is
> www.alleycat.org.

That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't work.
But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey anytime
he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and taking him to
the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he trust us to touch him
in the future should we do that? Bear in mind that it took us about 5 years
of feeding him before we were able to get close enough to him to touch him
at all......It's too bad that there isn't some chemical that one can put in
their food that sterilizes them......

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 02:06 AM
I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all you
want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take care of
the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and giving
instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants everything
done for them.

It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered, you
have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an outdoor feral
cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to steralize them
which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a drug not prescribed
by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the animal.

Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of people
who are trying to help you.


--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have
>> the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in your
>> area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral cats? As
>> for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat that has
>> had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or neutered and then
>> re-released back in the area they were found.
>>
>> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be because
>> they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be kind
>> enough to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs volunteers
>> are often in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they are often
>> asked to help.
>>
>> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
>> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the clinic
>> to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be solved by
>> trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps you should
>> contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their web addy is
>> www.alleycat.org.
>
> That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't
> work. But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey
> anytime he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and taking
> him to the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he trust us to
> touch him in the future should we do that? Bear in mind that it took us
> about 5 years of feeding him before we were able to get close enough to
> him to touch him at all......It's too bad that there isn't some chemical
> that one can put in their food that sterilizes them......
>

William Graham
February 13th 07, 02:40 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
>I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all you
>want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take care of
>the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and giving
>instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants
>everything done for them.
>
> It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
> excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered, you
> have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an outdoor
> feral cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to steralize
> them which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a drug not
> prescribed by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the animal.
>
> Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of people
> who are trying to help you.

You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long time
now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know. The
bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and bring
him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do that. Even
if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the problem persists,
and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I know what, "should" be
done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not alone....There are
millions of feral cats in this country, and our problem with Smokey is
repeated all across this country with millions of other folks just like us
that are afraid of alienating their cats by subjecting them to the trauma of
taking them to a vet's office. This is a cat that will only allow two people
on this entire earth to get within 20 feet of him.....Sorry..........
If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions, such
as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If not,
then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what, "should" be
done, but we are not willing to do it.

Charlie Wilkes
February 13th 07, 02:59 AM
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:42:12 -0500, ~*Connie*~ wrote:
>
> Declawing - that is a whole different kettle of fish. There weren't any
> studies for years about the negative effects of declawing a cat. Now there
> are, and they are showing it causes all kinds of health and behavioral
> issues, including arthritis.

Can you cite this?

Charlie

MaryL
February 13th 07, 03:03 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all
>>you want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take care
>>of the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and
>>giving instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants
>>everything done for them.
>>
>> It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
>> excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered,
>> you have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an outdoor
>> feral cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to steralize
>> them which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a drug not
>> prescribed by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the animal.
>>
>> Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of people
>> who are trying to help you.
>
> You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long
> time now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know.
> The bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and
> bring him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do
> that. Even if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the
> problem persists, and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I know
> what, "should" be done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not
> alone....There are millions of feral cats in this country, and our problem
> with Smokey is repeated all across this country with millions of other
> folks just like us that are afraid of alienating their cats by subjecting
> them to the trauma of taking them to a vet's office. This is a cat that
> will only allow two people on this entire earth to get within 20 feet of
> him.....Sorry..........
> If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
> feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions,
> such as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If
> not, then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what,
> "should" be done, but we are not willing to do it.
>

Is there a chapter of Alley Cat Allies near you. If you are serious about
permitting someone else to take Smokey to the vet, that would be a good
organization to contact. They are often overwhelmed financially, but they
would probably be eager to help if you are willing to pay the vet's bill.
Another option would be for you to place Smokey in a carrier but make
arrangements for a friend to transport him to the vet. You would need to
keep Smokey indoors (even a garage or barn) for awhile after the surgery.

MaryL

MaryL

William Graham
February 13th 07, 03:09 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all
>>>you want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take
>>>care of the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and
>>>giving instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants
>>>everything done for them.
>>>
>>> It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
>>> excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered,
>>> you have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an
>>> outdoor feral cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to
>>> steralize them which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a
>>> drug not prescribed by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the
>>> animal.
>>>
>>> Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of
>>> people who are trying to help you.
>>
>> You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long
>> time now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know.
>> The bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and
>> bring him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do
>> that. Even if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the
>> problem persists, and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I
>> know what, "should" be done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not
>> alone....There are millions of feral cats in this country, and our
>> problem with Smokey is repeated all across this country with millions of
>> other folks just like us that are afraid of alienating their cats by
>> subjecting them to the trauma of taking them to a vet's office. This is a
>> cat that will only allow two people on this entire earth to get within 20
>> feet of him.....Sorry..........
>> If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
>> feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions,
>> such as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If
>> not, then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what,
>> "should" be done, but we are not willing to do it.
>>
>
> Is there a chapter of Alley Cat Allies near you. If you are serious about
> permitting someone else to take Smokey to the vet, that would be a good
> organization to contact. They are often overwhelmed financially, but they
> would probably be eager to help if you are willing to pay the vet's bill.
> Another option would be for you to place Smokey in a carrier but make
> arrangements for a friend to transport him to the vet. You would need to
> keep Smokey indoors (even a garage or barn) for awhile after the surgery.
>
> MaryL
>
> MaryL
>
>
Now, there's an outstanding idea....After an hour or so in a carrier, he
would forget that I put him there, and when my buddy came in and got him and
took him to the vet, he probably wouldn't associate the bad experience with
either me or my wife.... I will think about that, and perhaps arrange it
with my friend from across town........

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 04:19 AM
Let me see, you come here posting for help, I offered several ideas
including contacting groups like Alley Cat Allies for help and perhaps
trapping the cat and getting him to the clinic to be neutered, and you say I
didn't help? I guess I'm done on this one. It seems pretty obvious you want
everything done for you instead of following instructions. Not doing the
trapping simply because you don't want the cat to hate you or it'd be truly
a tramatic experience is not only laughable but rediculous. No feral cat
rescue will say "sorry we can't trap and have the spaying or neutering done
because the cat will hate us." They get out there, do the trapping, get the
cat to the vet, have the sugery done, and then the next day the cat is
released back to their environment. And yes, many caretakers of the cats
have helped in this procedure and the cats still came back to them for food
and water.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
> You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long
> time now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know.
> The bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and
> bring him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do
> that. Even if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the
> problem persists, and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I know
> what, "should" be done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not
> alone....There are millions of feral cats in this country, and our problem
> with Smokey is repeated all across this country with millions of other
> folks just like us that are afraid of alienating their cats by subjecting
> them to the trauma of taking them to a vet's office. This is a cat that
> will only allow two people on this entire earth to get within 20 feet of
> him.....Sorry..........
> If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
> feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions,
> such as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If
> not, then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what,
> "should" be done, but we are not willing to do it.
>

William Graham
February 13th 07, 05:52 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Let me see, you come here posting for help, I offered several ideas
> including contacting groups like Alley Cat Allies for help and perhaps
> trapping the cat and getting him to the clinic to be neutered, and you say
> I didn't help? I guess I'm done on this one. It seems pretty obvious you
> want everything done for you instead of following instructions. Not doing
> the trapping simply because you don't want the cat to hate you or it'd be
> truly a tramatic experience is not only laughable but rediculous. No feral
> cat rescue will say "sorry we can't trap and have the spaying or neutering
> done because the cat will hate us." They get out there, do the trapping,
> get the cat to the vet, have the sugery done, and then the next day the
> cat is released back to their environment. And yes, many caretakers of the
> cats have helped in this procedure and the cats still came back to them
> for food and water.
>
Hey! - I'm not angry with you for not being able to help me. All I meant was
that I have done all that, and there are no organizations around my area
that could help me with my problem....That's not your fault. But don't
forget that your attitude from the beginning was that I am at fault because
the professional organizations in my area couldn't or wouldn't do what I
needed. So don't blame me for your attitude. This is an imperfect world. Not
everything is cut and dried and fixable by some law. I have a predicament,
and, even if it's of my own making, its still a predicament to me, and your
suggestions, however well meant, were no help. I'm sorry about that, but it
is true, nonetheless......

Captain Bob
February 13th 07, 06:11 AM
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0500
"~*Connie*~" > wrote:

>
> well then, that is six other kittens that won't find those homes who
> will be killed, because you refused to spend 100$ and do the
> responsible thing.

Wait a minute. I said I would either find a proper home for them or
keep them myself. My sister has 11 cats in her home, so I don't think I
would have a problem with a couple.

>
> I pray your poor Tania doesn't get a pyometra, or cancer of the
> uterus, or of the mammary glands after so many heat cycles.. It is
> hard on her poor body.
>

Think about what you are saying Connie. You know? If you were to get a
Mastectomy you would never get breast cancer, and if you have a
Hysterectomy, you would never get ovarian cancer. If men got castrated,
they would never get prostate cancer.... Are you willing to have
vulnerable parts of your body lopped off to make your life possibly
longer? If so, you are right, if not you are wrong.

> and for what?

It is an integral part of who she is, just like your hormone system is
an essential part of what makes you you. Believe me, you would not
be the same woman that you currently are of you ceased producing
estrogen, and your husband/boyfriend would not be the same person if
he stopped producing testosterone.

Bob

--
/"\
\ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign - Motor Vessel Tamara B
X against HTML email & vCards - http://www.tamara-b.org
/ \ Tania Our Cat http://www.tamara-b.org/t1.jpg
.. . http://www.tamara-b.org/t2.jpg

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Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 07:56 AM
There was no attitude here. I tried to help and all you seemed to want is
someone to do the job for you. It's as if you don't even want to try to help
this cat. It's not my fault if you're lazy. I offered advice but you seemed
more interested in having the situation handled by others and offering
excuses like the cat will be traumatized by the whole situation of getting
his getting humanely trapped, having him neutered, and then re-released back
to the area. Like I said, I think I'm done with this topic because you don't
seem to want to listen to anyone especially if presented with whom to
contact (like Alleycat Allies) and to get instructions on trapping.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
> Hey! - I'm not angry with you for not being able to help me. All I meant
> was that I have done all that, and there are no organizations around my
> area that could help me with my problem....That's not your fault. But
> don't forget that your attitude from the beginning was that I am at fault
> because the professional organizations in my area couldn't or wouldn't do
> what I needed. So don't blame me for your attitude. This is an imperfect
> world. Not everything is cut and dried and fixable by some law. I have a
> predicament, and, even if it's of my own making, its still a predicament
> to me, and your suggestions, however well meant, were no help. I'm sorry
> about that, but it is true, nonetheless......
>

Wendy
February 13th 07, 12:10 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:21:10 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>>
>>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating
>> (even thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the
>> opportunity because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to
>> keep in or around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off
>> looking for some 'action'.
>
> This is my point -- the neutering is done for the convenience of the
> owner, as much as for any other reason. Certainly it alters the nature of
> the cat at the most basic level, substantially changing its behavior and
> its temperament.
>
> I will grant that de-sexing reduces the tendency of cats to engage in
> high-risk behavior, and so it extends their lives. But what is more
> important -- quantity or quality of life? I have followed the declawing
> debate in this group a number of times. One of the arguments
> against declawing is that it deprives a cat of something fundamental to
> its nature, and therefore diminishes its quality of life. But the people
> with declawed cats deny that this is the case. They say their pets seem
> happy and contented, to which the anti-declawers respond by saying it's an
> illusion; cats are good at masking their suffering. If that is true, then
> how can the anti-declawers assure themselves that neutering doesn't have a
> similar effect?
>
> Charlie

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good reason
to leave cat intact.

There are far too many cats out there that nobody is taking care of. The
fact is that people aren't going to keep a cat (in far too many instances)
if they are spraying, yowling and marking the neighborhood. They aren't
going to want the vet bills to take Muffy or Buffy to the vet regularly to
get the abscesses from cat bites treated. If they do keep him, they will be
heart broken when kitty sickens and dies at 8 or 9 from health issues that
could have been avoided or even much younger when they are found dead in the
road. The cat isn't better off engaging in behavior that can get him sick
and/or dead.

I grew up with a intact male cat. My mom blamed my dad for not getting him
neutered but either way, Sniffy ended up with no ears because they were
ripped and bitten off in cat fights. He had to have his various wounds
treated every morning after he got a little older and started losing the
fights to the young turks on the block and he died at 9 of mouth cancer. If
he were out there today he probably would have contracted feline AIDS or
Leukemia. My mom had to listen to irate neighbors calling to complain about
him peeing on their front porch and he did mark every doorway on the first
floor of the house when she had the nerve to bring in a kitten. He was no
happier than my two neutered boys and died young.

Wendy

Wendy
February 13th 07, 12:22 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have
>> the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in your
>> area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral cats? As
>> for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat that has
>> had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or neutered and then
>> re-released back in the area they were found.
>>
>> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be because
>> they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be kind
>> enough to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs volunteers
>> are often in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they are often
>> asked to help.
>>
>> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
>> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the clinic
>> to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be solved by
>> trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps you should
>> contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their web addy is
>> www.alleycat.org.
>
> That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't
> work. But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey
> anytime he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and taking
> him to the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he trust us to
> touch him in the future should we do that? Bear in mind that it took us
> about 5 years of feeding him before we were able to get close enough to
> him to touch him at all......It's too bad that there isn't some chemical
> that one can put in their food that sterilizes them......
>
Why won't a trap work? All of your cats go outside or Smokey only eats
inside? Either way you put food in a trap or large carrier, don't let your
cats in that area until you have Smokey and go for it. He's more likely to
hang out after the surgery because he knows where he has a good thing and
won't be compelled to wander for the usually reasons.


W

Wendy
February 13th 07, 12:37 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all
>>you want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take care
>>of the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and
>>giving instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants
>>everything done for them.
>>
>> It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
>> excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered,
>> you have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an outdoor
>> feral cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to steralize
>> them which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a drug not
>> prescribed by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the animal.
>>
>> Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of people
>> who are trying to help you.
>
> You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long
> time now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know.
> The bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and
> bring him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do
> that. Even if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the
> problem persists, and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I know
> what, "should" be done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not
> alone....There are millions of feral cats in this country, and our problem
> with Smokey is repeated all across this country with millions of other
> folks just like us that are afraid of alienating their cats by subjecting
> them to the trauma of taking them to a vet's office. This is a cat that
> will only allow two people on this entire earth to get within 20 feet of
> him.....Sorry..........
> If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
> feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions,
> such as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If
> not, then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what,
> "should" be done, but we are not willing to do it.
>

Well then join the ranks of being the problem. You are basically too selfish
to do what you know needs doing.

Do you think rescue groups have nothing better to do? Do you think they have
endless resources? We're stretched to the limit and day after day, week
after week get calls and people in our face demanding, yes demanding, that
we come out and use our time and money to do things that these people won't,
won't not can't, do for themselves.

As you've noted this is a huge problem and the rescue groups are out there
trying to take care of the problems that are too big for an individual to
take care of. One cat you can do yourself.

How ignorant. You'll shrug your shoulders because this is only one cat of
many and leave the problem for someone else to deal with. Your reason is
bogus. Take care of him and he's much more likely to socialize than if you
leave things the way they are. He's not going to be very friendly if he's
laying dead in the road or dying under a bush of some disease he picked up
from the local fluffy-floozy.

W

cybercat
February 13th 07, 01:42 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:21:10 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>>
>>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>>
>>>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>>>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating
>>> (even thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the
>>> opportunity because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to
>>> keep in or around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off
>>> looking for some 'action'.
>>
>> This is my point -- the neutering is done for the convenience of the
>> owner, as much as for any other reason. Certainly it alters the nature
>> of
>> the cat at the most basic level, substantially changing its behavior and
>> its temperament.
>>
>> I will grant that de-sexing reduces the tendency of cats to engage in
>> high-risk behavior, and so it extends their lives. But what is more
>> important -- quantity or quality of life? I have followed the declawing
>> debate in this group a number of times. One of the arguments
>> against declawing is that it deprives a cat of something fundamental to
>> its nature, and therefore diminishes its quality of life. But the people
>> with declawed cats deny that this is the case. They say their pets seem
>> happy and contented, to which the anti-declawers respond by saying it's
>> an
>> illusion; cats are good at masking their suffering. If that is true,
>> then
>> how can the anti-declawers assure themselves that neutering doesn't have
>> a
>> similar effect?
>>
>> Charlie
>
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good reason
> to leave cat intact.
>
> There are far too many cats out there that nobody is taking care of. The
> fact is that people aren't going to keep a cat (in far too many instances)
> if they are spraying, yowling and marking the neighborhood. They aren't
> going to want the vet bills to take Muffy or Buffy to the vet regularly to
> get the abscesses from cat bites treated. If they do keep him, they will
> be heart broken when kitty sickens and dies at 8 or 9 from health issues
> that could have been avoided or even much younger when they are found dead
> in the road. The cat isn't better off engaging in behavior that can get
> him sick and/or dead.
>
> I grew up with a intact male cat. My mom blamed my dad for not getting him
> neutered but either way, Sniffy ended up with no ears because they were
> ripped and bitten off in cat fights. He had to have his various wounds
> treated every morning after he got a little older and started losing the
> fights to the young turks on the block and he died at 9 of mouth cancer.
> If he were out there today he probably would have contracted feline AIDS
> or Leukemia. My mom had to listen to irate neighbors calling to complain
> about him peeing on their front porch and he did mark every doorway on the
> first floor of the house when she had the nerve to bring in a kitten. He
> was no happier than my two neutered boys and died young.
>
> Wendy


I believe the basis of Charlie's opinion is the excessive importance men
place
upon their own testicles. Those little eggs in their hairy sack are all tied
up in
their personalities in ways no ovaries have ever influenced a woman's
psyche.

Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all, only
a man.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Rhonda
February 13th 07, 04:26 PM
Wendy wrote:
>
> I grew up with a intact male cat. My mom blamed my dad for not getting him
> neutered but either way, Sniffy ended up with no ears because they were
> ripped and bitten off in cat fights. He had to have his various wounds
> treated every morning after he got a little older and started losing the
> fights to the young turks on the block and he died at 9 of mouth cancer. If
> he were out there today he probably would have contracted feline AIDS or
> Leukemia. My mom had to listen to irate neighbors calling to complain about
> him peeing on their front porch and he did mark every doorway on the first
> floor of the house when she had the nerve to bring in a kitten. He was no
> happier than my two neutered boys and died young.

Poor cat! Sounds like he had a rough life.

I always like to watch when this subject comes up -- it's usually by a
guy. For some reason, many guys seem to take a cat's neuter personally.
They put their own feelings into it as if it happened to them. I don't
think it bothers them so much that the female getting spayed is going to
go through hormone changes and probably hot flashes and everything else,
but it really bothers them to "have a cat's nuts chopped off."

Cats also should not be eating commercial cat food, they should be
eating live mice. We should be providing several mice for them every day.

There are some compromises they have to put up with because they are
domestic pets. In turn, they get more comfortable and longer lives. If
they weren't spayed and neutered, they'd be tossed outside, and then
cats would take over the world.

Hey, maybe that's a good idea?

Rhonda

Rhonda
February 13th 07, 06:06 PM
cybercat wrote:

> I believe the basis of Charlie's opinion is the excessive importance men
> place
> upon their own testicles. Those little eggs in their hairy sack are all tied
> up in
> their personalities in ways no ovaries have ever influenced a woman's
> psyche.
>
> Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all, only
> a man.

OMG, that made me laugh!

Can I keep a copy of your post and repost it every now and then as the
subject comes up?

Rhonda (still snickering)

Professor
February 13th 07, 06:09 PM
I wrote to them and got this response:
The Houston Humane Society does not in any way PROMOTE the declawing of
cats. We understand the harsh realities of the procedure and the rare but
problematic side effects that can occur. Our employees suggest other
alternatives whenever possible, and we only offer declawing at the time of
spay and neuter surgery to eliminate unnecessary time under anesthesia, and
to deter people from declawing cats mindlessly before considering
alternatives.

We provide declawing surgery because we feel that the only thing more risky
than declawing a cat is abandoning a cat for destructive scratching behavior
that doesn't respond well to repeated deterrents. We encourage our clients
and potential adopters to try every alternative first, but we provide the
procedure because the BIGGEST heartbreak to the animal world is having pets
turned loose and made homeless because of destructive behaviors.


HHS employees have appeared on numerous local television news broadcasts to
educate Houstonians about the realities of cat scratching and why it is a
necessity. In fact, just two weeks ago we did a segment on KPRC Local 2
about why cats scratch (exercise, shedding the dead skin cells, stretching,
etc.), and that segment taught people about humane alternatives to "retrain"
your cat if he or she is exhibiting destructive scratching behavior. We also
tell people about Soft Paws. We give verbal advice and written materials to
any clients and potential adopters with questions about the realities of
declawing.


Every single one of us here at the HHS appreciates your willingness to teach
people about the grisly realities of declawing, and I hope that you educate
the people in your life about alternatives to declawing. We would be happy
if no cat owner ever requested to declaw their cat rather than give it up or
turn it loose.

The Houston Humane Society





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Professor ]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:02 AM
To: Kim Champion
Subject: You Declaw?!


Hello,
I just read your ad. You offer a special on having cats declawed? What the
hell is wrong with you people? Declawing is inhumane no matter how you try
to sell it which is why it is illegal in so many states. I am shocked that
"humane" society would offer such a thing. Do the right thing and stop
offering declaws.

Upset in America

Rhonda
February 13th 07, 06:28 PM
That's the exact response that a person in anecdotes received.

If they are advertising the surgery and its cost, do they really "offer
alternatives" when someone shows up with their cat for the procedure?

Rhonda

Professor wrote:
> I wrote to them and got this response:
> The Houston Humane Society does not in any way PROMOTE the declawing of
> cats. We understand the harsh realities of the procedure and the rare but
> problematic side effects that can occur. Our employees suggest other
> alternatives whenever possible, and we only offer declawing at the time of
> spay and neuter surgery to eliminate unnecessary time under anesthesia, and
> to deter people from declawing cats mindlessly before considering
> alternatives.
>
> We provide declawing surgery because we feel that the only thing more risky
> than declawing a cat is abandoning a cat for destructive scratching behavior
> that doesn't respond well to repeated deterrents. We encourage our clients
> and potential adopters to try every alternative first, but we provide the
> procedure because the BIGGEST heartbreak to the animal world is having pets
> turned loose and made homeless because of destructive behaviors.
>
>
> HHS employees have appeared on numerous local television news broadcasts to
> educate Houstonians about the realities of cat scratching and why it is a
> necessity. In fact, just two weeks ago we did a segment on KPRC Local 2
> about why cats scratch (exercise, shedding the dead skin cells, stretching,
> etc.), and that segment taught people about humane alternatives to "retrain"
> your cat if he or she is exhibiting destructive scratching behavior. We also
> tell people about Soft Paws. We give verbal advice and written materials to
> any clients and potential adopters with questions about the realities of
> declawing.
>
>
> Every single one of us here at the HHS appreciates your willingness to teach
> people about the grisly realities of declawing, and I hope that you educate
> the people in your life about alternatives to declawing. We would be happy
> if no cat owner ever requested to declaw their cat rather than give it up or
> turn it loose.
>
> The Houston Humane Society
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Professor ]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:02 AM
> To: Kim Champion
> Subject: You Declaw?!
>
>
> Hello,
> I just read your ad. You offer a special on having cats declawed? What the
> hell is wrong with you people? Declawing is inhumane no matter how you try
> to sell it which is why it is illegal in so many states. I am shocked that
> "humane" society would offer such a thing. Do the right thing and stop
> offering declaws.
>
> Upset in America
>
>

cybercat
February 13th 07, 08:07 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
...
> cybercat wrote:
>
>> I believe the basis of Charlie's opinion is the excessive importance men
>> place
>> upon their own testicles. Those little eggs in their hairy sack are all
>> tied up in
>> their personalities in ways no ovaries have ever influenced a woman's
>> psyche.
>>
>> Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all,
>> only a man.
>
> OMG, that made me laugh!
>
> Can I keep a copy of your post and repost it every now and then as the
> subject comes up?
>
> Rhonda (still snickering)
>

Why, yes, of course, Rhonda! I think it may be funny because it has the
ring of truth.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 08:23 PM
Well I'm a guy and had no problem getting Icarus neutered.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"cybercat" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:21:10 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>>>> .. .
>>>>>
>>>>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>>>>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating
>>>> (even thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the
>>>> opportunity because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to
>>>> keep in or around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off
>>>> looking for some 'action'.
>>>
>>> This is my point -- the neutering is done for the convenience of the
>>> owner, as much as for any other reason. Certainly it alters the nature
>>> of
>>> the cat at the most basic level, substantially changing its behavior and
>>> its temperament.
>>>
>>> I will grant that de-sexing reduces the tendency of cats to engage in
>>> high-risk behavior, and so it extends their lives. But what is more
>>> important -- quantity or quality of life? I have followed the declawing
>>> debate in this group a number of times. One of the arguments
>>> against declawing is that it deprives a cat of something fundamental to
>>> its nature, and therefore diminishes its quality of life. But the
>>> people
>>> with declawed cats deny that this is the case. They say their pets seem
>>> happy and contented, to which the anti-declawers respond by saying it's
>>> an
>>> illusion; cats are good at masking their suffering. If that is true,
>>> then
>>> how can the anti-declawers assure themselves that neutering doesn't have
>>> a
>>> similar effect?
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good
>> reason to leave cat intact.
>>
>> There are far too many cats out there that nobody is taking care of. The
>> fact is that people aren't going to keep a cat (in far too many
>> instances) if they are spraying, yowling and marking the neighborhood.
>> They aren't going to want the vet bills to take Muffy or Buffy to the vet
>> regularly to get the abscesses from cat bites treated. If they do keep
>> him, they will be heart broken when kitty sickens and dies at 8 or 9 from
>> health issues that could have been avoided or even much younger when they
>> are found dead in the road. The cat isn't better off engaging in behavior
>> that can get him sick and/or dead.
>>
>> I grew up with a intact male cat. My mom blamed my dad for not getting
>> him neutered but either way, Sniffy ended up with no ears because they
>> were ripped and bitten off in cat fights. He had to have his various
>> wounds treated every morning after he got a little older and started
>> losing the fights to the young turks on the block and he died at 9 of
>> mouth cancer. If he were out there today he probably would have
>> contracted feline AIDS or Leukemia. My mom had to listen to irate
>> neighbors calling to complain about him peeing on their front porch and
>> he did mark every doorway on the first floor of the house when she had
>> the nerve to bring in a kitten. He was no happier than my two neutered
>> boys and died young.
>>
>> Wendy
>
>
> I believe the basis of Charlie's opinion is the excessive importance men
> place
> upon their own testicles. Those little eggs in their hairy sack are all
> tied up in
> their personalities in ways no ovaries have ever influenced a woman's
> psyche.
>
> Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all,
> only a man.
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

Cat Protector
February 13th 07, 08:38 PM
Yes, I too got the same response and on this issue Cat Galaxy is doing a
story on it. The problem here is that this is what many shelters will state
that they'd rather have the cat declawed (if all other options have been
exhausted) and stay with the family than have the cat dumped out on the
street somewhere because they scratched the furniture. An ugly answer. Even
the Arizona Humane Society in Phoenix subscribes to that one even though
generally they have stated they are not for declawing at all. In fact the
AHS does show and describe exactly what is involved with the surgery in
order to convince people to search for other options.

Both the Houston and AHS might want to copy this from Paw Placement's
playbook. They will not adopt out any cat that someone has the intention of
declawing. They ask how the person feels about declawing during the adoption
screening process and even have a clause in their contract that states if
the person adopts a cat and then intends to have them declawed that they
will seize the cat.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"Professor" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>I wrote to them and got this response:
> The Houston Humane Society does not in any way PROMOTE the declawing of
> cats. We understand the harsh realities of the procedure and the rare but
> problematic side effects that can occur. Our employees suggest other
> alternatives whenever possible, and we only offer declawing at the time of
> spay and neuter surgery to eliminate unnecessary time under anesthesia,
> and to deter people from declawing cats mindlessly before considering
> alternatives.
>
> We provide declawing surgery because we feel that the only thing more
> risky than declawing a cat is abandoning a cat for destructive scratching
> behavior that doesn't respond well to repeated deterrents. We encourage
> our clients and potential adopters to try every alternative first, but we
> provide the procedure because the BIGGEST heartbreak to the animal world
> is having pets turned loose and made homeless because of destructive
> behaviors.
>
>
> HHS employees have appeared on numerous local television news broadcasts
> to educate Houstonians about the realities of cat scratching and why it is
> a necessity. In fact, just two weeks ago we did a segment on KPRC Local 2
> about why cats scratch (exercise, shedding the dead skin cells,
> stretching, etc.), and that segment taught people about humane
> alternatives to "retrain" your cat if he or she is exhibiting destructive
> scratching behavior. We also tell people about Soft Paws. We give verbal
> advice and written materials to any clients and potential adopters with
> questions about the realities of declawing.
>
>
> Every single one of us here at the HHS appreciates your willingness to
> teach people about the grisly realities of declawing, and I hope that you
> educate the people in your life about alternatives to declawing. We would
> be happy if no cat owner ever requested to declaw their cat rather than
> give it up or turn it loose.
>
> The Houston Humane Society
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Professor ]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:02 AM
> To: Kim Champion
> Subject: You Declaw?!
>
>
> Hello,
> I just read your ad. You offer a special on having cats declawed? What
> the hell is wrong with you people? Declawing is inhumane no matter how
> you try to sell it which is why it is illegal in so many states. I am
> shocked that "humane" society would offer such a thing. Do the right
> thing and stop offering declaws.
>
> Upset in America
>

cybercat
February 13th 07, 09:05 PM
"Rhonda" > wrote
> Cats also should not be eating commercial cat food, they should be eating
> live mice. We should be providing several mice for them every day.
>

No, they should have to hunt down, kill, and eat several mice a day.

(My girls apparently took down two mice that found their way inside,
about a year apart. There was not a scratch on the pretty little creatures,
and both cats were staring their demand for breakfast at me over their
little mousie bodies.)

Charlie Wilkes
February 13th 07, 10:02 PM
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:10:23 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good reason
> to leave cat intact.

I'm not arguing from conviction but rather from the standpoint of a
skeptic. I neutered my own male cat, and if he is less than happy he
conceals it admirably.

My point is not that neutering is bad, but that it is as invasive as
declawing, and people should perhaps re-examine their beliefs to evaluate
how much they are based on a real knowledge of feline nature, and how much
on woo-woo emotionalism.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
February 13th 07, 10:03 PM
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:42:38 -0500, cybercat wrote:
>
> Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all, only
> a man.
>
Of course. Thank you for putting me in a flattering perspective.

Charlie

cybercat
February 13th 07, 11:30 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:42:38 -0500, cybercat wrote:
>>
>> Charlie is generally a bright and circumspect man, but he is after all,
>> only
>> a man.
>>
> Of course. Thank you for putting me in a flattering perspective.
>

:)

You're welcome. You have had so many flattering things to say about the
"ladies" of rpch+b. Or was it, "cat ladies?" Hmm. Maybe it was "hysterical
cat ladies." I just cannot recall.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Rhonda
February 13th 07, 11:47 PM
Good!

Rhonda

Cat Protector wrote:
> Well I'm a guy and had no problem getting Icarus neutered.

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:16 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> There was no attitude here. I tried to help and all you seemed to want is
> someone to do the job for you. It's as if you don't even want to try to
> help this cat. It's not my fault if you're lazy. I offered advice but you
> seemed more interested in having the situation handled by others and
> offering excuses like the cat will be traumatized by the whole situation
> of getting his getting humanely trapped, having him neutered, and then
> re-released back to the area. Like I said, I think I'm done with this
> topic because you don't seem to want to listen to anyone especially if
> presented with whom to contact (like Alleycat Allies) and to get
> instructions on trapping.
>
I don't need any instructions on trapping......The feral cat allows my wife
and I to pick it up anytime. We are (as far as I know) the only people that
can do this. I can put him in a carrier at any time and take him to the vet.
I don't, because I am afraid he will never return if I do this.
But, someone else gave me a solution to my problem. They told me to trap
the cat, and then leave the house. Then, in a few minutes a friend will come
in and take the cat to the vet. Then the friend will pick up the cat when he
is ready to come home from the vet, and drop him off at my house. Then I
will come home and let him out of the carrier, and he very probably will not
associate me with the trauma of being carried around and messed with by
other people. This is worth a try, so I am arranging to have it happen right
now.....
The organizations that you mention in my area either could not, or would
not help me at all.....I have already contacted them and asked. I have told
you this before.

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:20 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:21:10 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>>
>>> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>>
>>>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>>>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> Probably because he'd still behave like an un-neutered male - mating
>>> (even thought he would be shooting blanks) and fighting. He'd have the
>>> opportunity because an un-neutered male would be much more difficult to
>>> keep in or around ones home as he'd be quite inclined to wander off
>>> looking for some 'action'.
>>
>> This is my point -- the neutering is done for the convenience of the
>> owner, as much as for any other reason. Certainly it alters the nature
>> of
>> the cat at the most basic level, substantially changing its behavior and
>> its temperament.

Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy lives.
If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like my feral
male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble and expense
to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various diseases)

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:29 AM
"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message > Sure. Right.
> When you've got women claiming that PMS caused them to commit
> murder?
> When women claim menopause is causing them to screw up at
> their jobs?
> When post partem depression "causes" women to kill their children?
>
> I'll even bet your ovaries caused you to make those moronic statements
> and that your ovaries will cause you to write something even more stupid
> and bitchy in response to this post.
> And your ovaries will even make you think that you are clever.
> And the ovaries of other women will make them think you have a
> valid point.

Yeah.....Most of the women I know say that they spent their teenage years
thinking with their sex organs, and it wasn't until they grew up that they
started using their brains....but I have to admit that many of us men never
grow up, and spend most of out lives thinking with our sex organs.....I
think it was GB Shaw that said the chief advantage of old age is that you
can go about your life without thinking about sex all the time......

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:34 AM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>

(My girls apparently took down two mice that found their way inside,
> about a year apart. There was not a scratch on the pretty little
> creatures,
> and both cats were staring their demand for breakfast at me over their
> little mousie bodies.)
>
I saw a young squirrel actually walk over my sleeping "Meggie" cat out on
our back deck last Summer. She is so mellow, even the squirrels pay no
attention to her. She plays with the baby raccoons, too.....

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:41 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
m...
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:10:23 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>>
>> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good
>> reason
>> to leave cat intact.
>
> I'm not arguing from conviction but rather from the standpoint of a
> skeptic. I neutered my own male cat, and if he is less than happy he
> conceals it admirably.
>
> My point is not that neutering is bad, but that it is as invasive as
> declawing, and people should perhaps re-examine their beliefs to evaluate
> how much they are based on a real knowledge of feline nature, and how much
> on woo-woo emotionalism.
>
> Charlie

I think that declawing is much more painful than neutering....When I had my
male cat neutered, it seemed (to me) that it didn't bother him at
all....After he slept off the anesthetic, he was his old playful self in a
matter of a couple of hours. Also, it didn't interfere with his ability to
hunt, climb trees, run across the roof after squirrels and birds or anything
that he loves to do. Of course, there is no way you can get inside his mind
and tell what he is thinking, (like the democrats can get inside Bush's
mind) but it would seem to me that if a cat is playing after two hours, it
can't be that painful.....

cybercat
February 14th 07, 03:44 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "cybercat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>
> (My girls apparently took down two mice that found their way inside,
>> about a year apart. There was not a scratch on the pretty little
>> creatures,
>> and both cats were staring their demand for breakfast at me over their
>> little mousie bodies.)
>>
> I saw a young squirrel actually walk over my sleeping "Meggie" cat out on
> our back deck last Summer. She is so mellow, even the squirrels pay no
> attention to her. She plays with the baby raccoons, too.....

We need some pictures ... ;)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:47 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have
>>> the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in your
>>> area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral cats? As
>>> for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat that has
>>> had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or neutered and
>>> then re-released back in the area they were found.
>>>
>>> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be because
>>> they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be kind
>>> enough to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs volunteers
>>> are often in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they are often
>>> asked to help.
>>>
>>> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
>>> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the clinic
>>> to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be solved
>>> by trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps you
>>> should contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their web
>>> addy is www.alleycat.org.
>>
>> That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't
>> work. But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey
>> anytime he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and
>> taking him to the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he trust
>> us to touch him in the future should we do that? Bear in mind that it
>> took us about 5 years of feeding him before we were able to get close
>> enough to him to touch him at all......It's too bad that there isn't some
>> chemical that one can put in their food that sterilizes them......
>>
> Why won't a trap work? All of your cats go outside or Smokey only eats
> inside? Either way you put food in a trap or large carrier, don't let your
> cats in that area until you have Smokey and go for it. He's more likely to
> hang out after the surgery because he knows where he has a good thing and
> won't be compelled to wander for the usually reasons.
>
The problem has already been solved.....My friend from across town will come
in the house after I put Smokey in a carrier, and take him to the vet while
my wife and I are gone. Then Smokey won't associate the traumatic experience
with us. When Smokey is ready to come home, my friend will pick him up, and
take him to the house and leave him where we left him. Then we will come
home, and Smokey won't know that we haven't been gone the whole time, and
won't know that we had anything to do with his experience.......

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:51 AM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I guess it's pointless to talk to you about this one. It seems like all
>>>you want to do is make excuses instead of doing what's needed to take
>>>care of the issue. There is nothing worse than making recommendations and
>>>giving instructions to someone who claims to want help but instead wants
>>>everything done for them.
>>>
>>> It seems every time something has been suggested you've come up with an
>>> excuse like the cat will be traumatized by being trapped and neutered,
>>> you have 3 other cats (what does have that to do with trapping an
>>> outdoor feral cat?), or now wanting to put a chemical in their food to
>>> steralize them which is not only laughable but also dangerous since a
>>> drug not prescribed by a licensed and qualified vet could kill the
>>> animal.
>>>
>>> Get this cat neutered. Stop making excuses and wasting the time of
>>> people who are trying to help you.
>>
>> You have not been able to help me....I have had this problem for a long
>> time now, and you haven't told me anything that I did not already know.
>> The bottom line is that I don't want to throw Smokey in a cat carrier and
>> bring him to the vet, because I am afraid that I will lose him if I do
>> that. Even if I would do it, my wife would not let me do it. So, the
>> problem persists, and you can't help by telling me to do it anyway. I
>> know what, "should" be done. We just don't want to do it. And we are not
>> alone....There are millions of feral cats in this country, and our
>> problem with Smokey is repeated all across this country with millions of
>> other folks just like us that are afraid of alienating their cats by
>> subjecting them to the trauma of taking them to a vet's office. This is a
>> cat that will only allow two people on this entire earth to get within 20
>> feet of him.....Sorry..........
>> If you have nothing better to do, and are really concerned about the
>> feral cat problem, then you might consider one of my other suggestions,
>> such as the sterilizing pill, or a third party trapping organization. If
>> not, then I suggest that you just leave it alone. We all know what,
>> "should" be done, but we are not willing to do it.
>>
>
> Well then join the ranks of being the problem. You are basically too
> selfish to do what you know needs doing.
>
> Do you think rescue groups have nothing better to do? Do you think they
> have endless resources? We're stretched to the limit and day after day,
> week after week get calls and people in our face demanding, yes demanding,
> that we come out and use our time and money to do things that these people
> won't, won't not can't, do for themselves.
>
> As you've noted this is a huge problem and the rescue groups are out there
> trying to take care of the problems that are too big for an individual to
> take care of. One cat you can do yourself.
>
> How ignorant. You'll shrug your shoulders because this is only one cat of
> many and leave the problem for someone else to deal with. Your reason is
> bogus. Take care of him and he's much more likely to socialize than if you
> leave things the way they are. He's not going to be very friendly if he's
> laying dead in the road or dying under a bush of some disease he picked up
> from the local fluffy-floozy.
>
> W
>
I am taking care of the problem in a way that is satisfactory to me and my
wife......I asked this forum for a solution, and some very kind person gave
it to me.....I hope you and your kind have taken note of it, and can use it
to help others like me, instead of just bitching and moaning to them for not
doing everything the way that you would do it........

William Graham
February 14th 07, 03:57 AM
"Professor" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>I wrote to them and got this response:
> The Houston Humane Society does not in any way PROMOTE the declawing of
> cats. We understand the harsh realities of the procedure and the rare but
> problematic side effects that can occur. Our employees suggest other
> alternatives whenever possible, and we only offer declawing at the time of
> spay and neuter surgery to eliminate unnecessary time under anesthesia,
> and to deter people from declawing cats mindlessly before considering
> alternatives.
>
> We provide declawing surgery because we feel that the only thing more
> risky than declawing a cat is abandoning a cat for destructive scratching
> behavior that doesn't respond well to repeated deterrents. We encourage
> our clients and potential adopters to try every alternative first, but we
> provide the procedure because the BIGGEST heartbreak to the animal world
> is having pets turned loose and made homeless because of destructive
> behaviors.
>
>
> HHS employees have appeared on numerous local television news broadcasts
> to educate Houstonians about the realities of cat scratching and why it is
> a necessity. In fact, just two weeks ago we did a segment on KPRC Local 2
> about why cats scratch (exercise, shedding the dead skin cells,
> stretching, etc.), and that segment taught people about humane
> alternatives to "retrain" your cat if he or she is exhibiting destructive
> scratching behavior. We also tell people about Soft Paws. We give verbal
> advice and written materials to any clients and potential adopters with
> questions about the realities of declawing.
>
>
> Every single one of us here at the HHS appreciates your willingness to
> teach people about the grisly realities of declawing, and I hope that you
> educate the people in your life about alternatives to declawing. We would
> be happy if no cat owner ever requested to declaw their cat rather than
> give it up or turn it loose.
>
> The Houston Humane Society

But if you've got $60........

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 05:20 AM
Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away from
humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have the
wild predatory nature bred out of them.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com

"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..

> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like my
> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble and
> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
> diseases)
>

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 05:21 AM
Here we go again. Why don't you admit you are lazy and want everything done
for you? This can save us all a lot of grief.

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"William Graham" > wrote in message
...

> I don't need any instructions on trapping......The feral cat allows my
> wife and I to pick it up anytime. We are (as far as I know) the only
> people that can do this. I can put him in a carrier at any time and take
> him to the vet. I don't, because I am afraid he will never return if I do
> this.
> But, someone else gave me a solution to my problem. They told me to
> trap the cat, and then leave the house. Then, in a few minutes a friend
> will come in and take the cat to the vet. Then the friend will pick up the
> cat when he is ready to come home from the vet, and drop him off at my
> house. Then I will come home and let him out of the carrier, and he very
> probably will not associate me with the trauma of being carried around and
> messed with by other people. This is worth a try, so I am arranging to
> have it happen right now.....
> The organizations that you mention in my area either could not, or
> would not help me at all.....I have already contacted them and asked. I
> have told you this before.
>

William Graham
February 14th 07, 07:24 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
>
> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
> domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away from
> humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have the
> wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
I presume you are talking to me....All of my "information" comes from my own
experience. I have known several feral cats who have been taken in and
become as "domesticated" as the other cats in the same household. Our Smokey
is half domesticated right now, and he was as wild as the wind about 4 years
ago....It has taken us 4 years to get him to come in the house and sleep and
eat here. We could have done it quicker had we trapped him and locked him
in, but we don't have "inside cats"...All of our cats come and go as they
like through three cat doors that we have leading to the front and the back
yard of our house. The only time I trapped Smokey in the house was to teach
him to use the cat doors.....He didn't know how until I pulled a string one
day and slid the glass door in the bedroom shut and trapped him inside until
he learned to use them. All animals are basically wild. Even dogs came from
wolves. The younger you domesticate them the better, but you can domesticate
them at any age if you are patient enough. I did it with Smokey by feeding
him chopped, roasted chicken, and moving the bowl a little bit closer to the
house every day, until I had him eating it in our bedroom. The first time I
touched him, I held the bowl while he was eating out of it, while I was
lying down on the floor, so I would be as short as he was......It's called,
"Patience", and you have to have it. I am also using it with you........:^)

William Graham
February 14th 07, 07:26 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
> Here we go again. Why don't you admit you are lazy and want everything
> done for you? This can save us all a lot of grief.

Speak for yourself, idiot......No one else has any "grief" but
yourself.......

Nicolaas Hawkins
February 14th 07, 08:46 AM
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:24:09 -0800, William Graham >
wrote in >:

> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
>> domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away from
>> humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have the
>> wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>
> I presume you are talking to me....All of my "information" comes from my own
> experience. I have known several feral cats who have been taken in and
> become as "domesticated" as the other cats in the same household. Our Smokey
> is half domesticated right now, and he was as wild as the wind about 4 years
> ago....It has taken us 4 years to get him to come in the house and sleep and
> eat here. We could have done it quicker had we trapped him and locked him
> in, but we don't have "inside cats"...All of our cats come and go as they
> like through three cat doors that we have leading to the front and the back
> yard of our house. The only time I trapped Smokey in the house was to teach
> him to use the cat doors.....He didn't know how until I pulled a string one
> day and slid the glass door in the bedroom shut and trapped him inside until
> he learned to use them. All animals are basically wild. Even dogs came from
> wolves. The younger you domesticate them the better, but you can domesticate
> them at any age if you are patient enough. I did it with Smokey by feeding
> him chopped, roasted chicken, and moving the bowl a little bit closer to the
> house every day, until I had him eating it in our bedroom. The first time I
> touched him, I held the bowl while he was eating out of it, while I was
> lying down on the floor, so I would be as short as he was......It's called,
> "Patience", and you have to have it. I am also using it with you........:^)

You are conflating patience with condescension.

--
Regards,
Nicolaas.


.... Boycott shampoo - demand the real thing.

Wendy
February 14th 07, 12:33 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
m...
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:10:23 -0500, Wendy wrote:
>>
>> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I find no good
>> reason
>> to leave cat intact.
>
> I'm not arguing from conviction but rather from the standpoint of a
> skeptic. I neutered my own male cat, and if he is less than happy he
> conceals it admirably.
>
> My point is not that neutering is bad, but that it is as invasive as
> declawing, and people should perhaps re-examine their beliefs to evaluate
> how much they are based on a real knowledge of feline nature, and how much
> on woo-woo emotionalism.
>
> Charlie

De-clawing serves no health benefit for the cat at all unless you accept the
bogus threats that people will euthanize if they can't de-claw. They are
more likely to dump the cat somewhere rather than pay to kill it. Trust me
people don't want to part with the buck and will take the path of least
resistance. It's easy and cheap to drive poor Buffy to somewhere else and
dump him and even easier to just lock him out.

Neutering OTOH can extend the life of the cat by years.

I don't see the connection.

W

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 03:02 PM
You have no experience. Feral cats can't be domesticated. They'll still be
feral to some degree and most will hide if you take them indoors. I find it
amusing that when it comes to dealing with this one feral cat you want
someone else to do your work for you. When someone calls you out on your
experience you now post you have all of this experience. The only thing you
have demonstrated is that you are lazy and want others to do your work for
you. Why else would you have a friend come clear across town to load a cat
into a carrier in order to take him to the clinic to have him neutered? The
answer, because you can't get off your fat lazy ass and help the cat by
trapping him yourself and getting him to the clinic to be neutered. Just
admit to this and you'd be doing us all a favor so we don't have to waste
any more time trying to help you.

First you asked for advise and then when it's given you start making excuses
on why you can't trap the cat yourself or take him to the clinic in order to
get him neutered. The only trauma the cat will face is you doing nothing and
him siring a litter of kittens because you were too lazy to have him trapped
and brought to the clinic. And if your theory of the cat associating the
trauma is true (which it's about as bogus as they come) then what about the
next time another feral cat needs help? Are you going to call the same
friend to come and do the job? Oh, yeah you subscibe to the trauma theory
which doesn't really exist and will call someone else to help.

All 3 of my cats are spayed and neuterd. One of them I got in the carrier
and to the clinic to be neutered. Did he hate me for it? Hell no. There was
no trauma. I know many people who have trapped feral cats, got them to the
clinic and then had them re-released. The ferals still came up to that
person when it came time to leave out food and water. Feral cats will shy
away from most humans but will eventually come up to one caretaker.

It's obvious to all of us that you have no experience when it comes to cats.
Just admit it and move on. I think the only thing you are doing is wasting
time because you insist on having others do the work for you.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..

> I presume you are talking to me....All of my "information" comes from my
> own experience. I have known several feral cats who have been taken in and
> become as "domesticated" as the other cats in the same household. Our
> Smokey is half domesticated right now, and he was as wild as the wind
> about 4 years ago....It has taken us 4 years to get him to come in the
> house and sleep and eat here. We could have done it quicker had we trapped
> him and locked him in, but we don't have "inside cats"...All of our cats
> come and go as they like through three cat doors that we have leading to
> the front and the back yard of our house. The only time I trapped Smokey
> in the house was to teach him to use the cat doors.....He didn't know how
> until I pulled a string one day and slid the glass door in the bedroom
> shut and trapped him inside until he learned to use them. All animals are
> basically wild. Even dogs came from wolves. The younger you domesticate
> them the better, but you can domesticate them at any age if you are
> patient enough. I did it with Smokey by feeding him chopped, roasted
> chicken, and moving the bowl a little bit closer to the house every day,
> until I had him eating it in our bedroom. The first time I touched him, I
> held the bowl while he was eating out of it, while I was lying down on the
> floor, so I would be as short as he was......It's called, "Patience", and
> you have to have it. I am also using it with you........:^)
>

Upscale
February 14th 07, 03:36 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> you. Why else would you have a friend come clear across town to load a cat
> into a carrier in order to take him to the clinic to have him neutered?
The
> answer, because you can't get off your fat lazy ass and help the cat by
> trapping him yourself and getting him to the clinic to be neutered.

You're kind of slow aren't you? He told you exactly why he wanted someone
else to do transporting to the vet and getting the neutering done. It was so
the cat wouldn't associate those unpleasant actions to him and might go a
long way to preserving what trust he'd built up with this feral cat.

I'm not arguing about the validity of what he wanted, just pointing out that
it's one possible route to go. It has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to do with being
lazy.

Is that so hard for you to understand? So, why don't you get off your fat
lazy ass and engage what little brain power you have towards understanding
what he was saying?

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 03:43 PM
I'm slow? Hell no! I'm just pointing out how lazy this guy is being. He
claims to have all this experience but when it comes to one cat he wants
others to do the job for him. Sorry, I have no sympathy here for him.

--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com


"Upscale" > wrote in message
...

> You're kind of slow aren't you? He told you exactly why he wanted someone
> else to do transporting to the vet and getting the neutering done. It was
> so
> the cat wouldn't associate those unpleasant actions to him and might go a
> long way to preserving what trust he'd built up with this feral cat.
>
> I'm not arguing about the validity of what he wanted, just pointing out
> that
> it's one possible route to go. It has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to do with
> being
> lazy.
>
> Is that so hard for you to understand? So, why don't you get off your fat
> lazy ass and engage what little brain power you have towards understanding
> what he was saying?
>
>

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 03:47 PM
Idiot? I actually know how to get a cat in a carrier and take them to the
clinic myself to get them spayed or neutered. I don't need to have a friend
come all the way across town to do the job for me. You're just being lazy.

--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..

> Speak for yourself, idiot......No one else has any "grief" but
> yourself.......
>

Upscale
February 14th 07, 04:04 PM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> Hell no! I'm just pointing out how lazy this guy is being. He
> claims to have all this experience but when it comes to one cat he wants
> others to do the job for him. Sorry, I have no sympathy here for him.

Sorry, but I fail to see how you equate this with simply being lazy.
Admittedly, I have zero experience with feral cats, but I do know it takes
time to build up a measure of trust with them. If I'd taken time to build up
that trust with a feral cat, then I'd want to minimize chances of damaging
that trust. To me anyway, it's logical that putting a feral cat into some
sort of transportation container or enclosed space could easily damage that
trust. What's the big deal in his attempting to prevent such a cat from
associating these actions to him?

Geez, if he was as lazy and uncaring as you imply, then he certainly
wouldn't be feeding the cat and most certainly wouldn't be offering to pay
any veterinarian bills for the cat.

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 06:47 PM
Feral cat rescues have been trapping cats for years with no ill effects. The
only thing that happened is the cats got spayed and neutered. The next
excuse this guy will probably have is not to trap because then the next cat
will relate it to the group or individual that did the work for him. This
guy is simply being lazy and wanting to pay others to do a simple and easy
job. He claimed he contacted feral cat rescues but said they were no help.
This guy probably called them and said he wanted someone to do it for him.
Most likely they asked him if he can get the cat into the carrier and
transport because they are overwhelmed with calls. He probably pitched his
excuse to them and decided he didn't want to be on a waiting list.

This guy claims he has past experiences with feral cats but I'm doubting it.
Most of those who work for feral cat organizations will state that they have
not had any problems being able to trap a feral cat, get them to the clinic,
have them spayed or neutered, and then re-released.

If this guy is going to make all these excuses as to why he can't trap the
feral, imagine what excuses he uses for his indoor cats. Is he going to call
everyone in the phone book to have them come over and put his cat in a
carrier for him in order to get the animal to the vet by saying the cat will
be traumatized. I think all this guy has done is make excuses as to why he
isn't trapping this cat and getting the animal to a clinic to be neutered.
Offering excuses doesn't help this cat. What happens is this cat will
continue to sire a litter of unwanted kittens which only adds to the
overpopulation problem. This guy pretty lazy or else he would have gotten
up, trapped the cat and brought him to the clinic to be neutered a long time
ago.


--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
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"Upscale" > wrote in message
...

> Sorry, but I fail to see how you equate this with simply being lazy.
> Admittedly, I have zero experience with feral cats, but I do know it takes
> time to build up a measure of trust with them. If I'd taken time to build
> up
> that trust with a feral cat, then I'd want to minimize chances of damaging
> that trust. To me anyway, it's logical that putting a feral cat into some
> sort of transportation container or enclosed space could easily damage
> that
> trust. What's the big deal in his attempting to prevent such a cat from
> associating these actions to him?
>
> Geez, if he was as lazy and uncaring as you imply, then he certainly
> wouldn't be feeding the cat and most certainly wouldn't be offering to pay
> any veterinarian bills for the cat.
>
>

William Graham
February 14th 07, 07:47 PM
"Nicolaas Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:24:09 -0800, William Graham >
> wrote in >:
>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
>>> be
>>> domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
>>> from
>>> humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have
>>> the
>>> wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>>
>> I presume you are talking to me....All of my "information" comes from my
>> own
>> experience. I have known several feral cats who have been taken in and
>> become as "domesticated" as the other cats in the same household. Our
>> Smokey
>> is half domesticated right now, and he was as wild as the wind about 4
>> years
>> ago....It has taken us 4 years to get him to come in the house and sleep
>> and
>> eat here. We could have done it quicker had we trapped him and locked him
>> in, but we don't have "inside cats"...All of our cats come and go as they
>> like through three cat doors that we have leading to the front and the
>> back
>> yard of our house. The only time I trapped Smokey in the house was to
>> teach
>> him to use the cat doors.....He didn't know how until I pulled a string
>> one
>> day and slid the glass door in the bedroom shut and trapped him inside
>> until
>> he learned to use them. All animals are basically wild. Even dogs came
>> from
>> wolves. The younger you domesticate them the better, but you can
>> domesticate
>> them at any age if you are patient enough. I did it with Smokey by
>> feeding
>> him chopped, roasted chicken, and moving the bowl a little bit closer to
>> the
>> house every day, until I had him eating it in our bedroom. The first time
>> I
>> touched him, I held the bowl while he was eating out of it, while I was
>> lying down on the floor, so I would be as short as he was......It's
>> called,
>> "Patience", and you have to have it. I am also using it with
>> you........:^)
>
> You are conflating patience with condescension.
>
I am afraid you are right, Nicolaas.....And apparently, I am also wasting my
time......:^)

William Graham
February 14th 07, 08:01 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> Hell no! I'm just pointing out how lazy this guy is being. He
>> claims to have all this experience but when it comes to one cat he wants
>> others to do the job for him. Sorry, I have no sympathy here for him.
>
> Sorry, but I fail to see how you equate this with simply being lazy.
> Admittedly, I have zero experience with feral cats, but I do know it takes
> time to build up a measure of trust with them. If I'd taken time to build
> up
> that trust with a feral cat, then I'd want to minimize chances of damaging
> that trust. To me anyway, it's logical that putting a feral cat into some
> sort of transportation container or enclosed space could easily damage
> that
> trust. What's the big deal in his attempting to prevent such a cat from
> associating these actions to him?
>
> Geez, if he was as lazy and uncaring as you imply, then he certainly
> wouldn't be feeding the cat and most certainly wouldn't be offering to pay
> any veterinarian bills for the cat.
>
>
Thank you, Upscale, but I think you are wasting your time (as I have)
talking to this troll. He has already decided to believe what he wants to
believe. And he might be correct when he says that Smokey won't be alienated
by my bringing him to the vet.....It's just that I don't know that, and I am
not willing to take the troll's word for it.....I want a little extra
insurance before I take that step.
Smokey is almost too old to father any more children anyway, so there is
no pressing need to have him neutered, but it would be better for his
health, so I will do it anyway. (and get him his shots at the same time)
Different cats have different personalities. Smokey is very intelligent,
and very well adapted to caring for himself....After 6 years or so of feral
activities, he doesn't have any wounds or scars, and still has all of his
ears....And he is a fairly small cat. This tells me that he is intelligent
and street wise.

Cat Protector
February 14th 07, 10:34 PM
I'm not a troll. I've been a part of this group way longer than you have.
But still the word stands. You are lazy and now after being called out on it
are trying to play like you're the saint. Nice try but those with
intelligence know better.

--
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www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
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"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thank you, Upscale, but I think you are wasting your time (as I have)
> talking to this troll. He has already decided to believe what he wants to
> believe. And he might be correct when he says that Smokey won't be
> alienated by my bringing him to the vet.....It's just that I don't know
> that, and I am not willing to take the troll's word for it.....I want a
> little extra insurance before I take that step.
> Smokey is almost too old to father any more children anyway, so there
> is no pressing need to have him neutered, but it would be better for his
> health, so I will do it anyway. (and get him his shots at the same time)
> Different cats have different personalities. Smokey is very
> intelligent, and very well adapted to caring for himself....After 6 years
> or so of feral activities, he doesn't have any wounds or scars, and still
> has all of his ears....And he is a fairly small cat. This tells me that he
> is intelligent and street wise.
>

Wendy
February 15th 07, 11:35 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Wendy" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then have
>>>> the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group in
>>>> your area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral
>>>> cats? As for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral cat
>>>> that has had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or
>>>> neutered and then re-released back in the area they were found.
>>>>
>>>> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be
>>>> because they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be
>>>> kind enough to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs
>>>> volunteers are often in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they
>>>> are often asked to help.
>>>>
>>>> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
>>>> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the
>>>> clinic to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be
>>>> solved by trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps
>>>> you should contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their
>>>> web addy is www.alleycat.org.
>>>
>>> That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't
>>> work. But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey
>>> anytime he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and
>>> taking him to the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he
>>> trust us to touch him in the future should we do that? Bear in mind that
>>> it took us about 5 years of feeding him before we were able to get close
>>> enough to him to touch him at all......It's too bad that there isn't
>>> some chemical that one can put in their food that sterilizes them......
>>>
>> Why won't a trap work? All of your cats go outside or Smokey only eats
>> inside? Either way you put food in a trap or large carrier, don't let
>> your cats in that area until you have Smokey and go for it. He's more
>> likely to hang out after the surgery because he knows where he has a good
>> thing and won't be compelled to wander for the usually reasons.
>>
> The problem has already been solved.....My friend from across town will
> come in the house after I put Smokey in a carrier, and take him to the vet
> while my wife and I are gone. Then Smokey won't associate the traumatic
> experience with us. When Smokey is ready to come home, my friend will pick
> him up, and take him to the house and leave him where we left him. Then we
> will come home, and Smokey won't know that we haven't been gone the whole
> time, and won't know that we had anything to do with his experience.......
>

Great and you didn't need a rescue group to do it either.

W

Cat Protector
February 15th 07, 03:26 PM
No he still uses excuses as to why he can't do it himself. I'm especially
amused when he said the following:

"Then we will come home, and Smokey won't know that we haven't been gone the
whole
time, and won't know that we had anything to do with his experience......."

This guy must be under the impression cats are dumb animals. Cats remember
everything which is why if he truly believes what he's been saying in this
group, I can only imagine how many people he plans on inconveniencing when
his other cats need to go to the vet. Is he going to use the excuse he used
for this one cat that they'll be traumatized by the experience but by
getting someone else to do it, the cat won't associate the experience with
he and his wife? This guy is lazy, plain and simple. He reminds me of one of
those rich snobs who takes a mild interest in what his human kids do by
hiring a nanny to take care of them instead of taking an active role in
their lives. That's pretty sad if you look at it.


--
Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
www.panthertekit.com


"Wendy" > wrote in message
> Great and you didn't need a rescue group to do it either.
>
> W
>

Cattas Trophee
February 15th 07, 09:07 PM
On Feb 14, 7:41 am, "William Graham" > wrote:


> I think that declawing is much more painful than neutering....When I had my
> male cat neutered, it seemed (to me) that it didn't bother him at
> all

Mebbe. Dont suport declqawing but hd a cat that died frm a spay
operaton.

William Graham
February 15th 07, 11:43 PM
"cybercat" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "cybercat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>
>> (My girls apparently took down two mice that found their way inside,
>>> about a year apart. There was not a scratch on the pretty little
>>> creatures,
>>> and both cats were staring their demand for breakfast at me over their
>>> little mousie bodies.)
>>>
>> I saw a young squirrel actually walk over my sleeping "Meggie" cat out on
>> our back deck last Summer. She is so mellow, even the squirrels pay no
>> attention to her. She plays with the baby raccoons, too.....
>
> We need some pictures ... ;)
Don't think I haven't tried....I am also in a photographer group
(rec.photo.equipment.35mm) and I would love to post a few....The problem is,
things like the above only happen once in a blue moon, and then only for a
few seconds, and then the "moment is past".....I haven't got the patience to
be a wildlife photographer.....

William Graham
February 15th 07, 11:46 PM
"Wendy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Wendy" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Are you saying that is hard to get a trap, put food in it and then
>>>>> have the cat enter it in order to get the cat? Don't you have a group
>>>>> in your area that handles the trap, neuter and return option for feral
>>>>> cats? As for bad experiences, I have not seen or heard of one feral
>>>>> cat that has had a tramatic experience from being trapped, spayed or
>>>>> neutered and then re-released back in the area they were found.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a feral cat group says they won't come out and trap it may be
>>>>> because they are overwhelmed and are hoping that the caretaker will be
>>>>> kind enough to do it for them. Here in Phoenix groups like AzCATs
>>>>> volunteers are often in short supply so whoever the caretaker is, they
>>>>> are often asked to help.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you truly care about this cat as much as you say you do, then I'd
>>>>> advise you do the humane trapping yourself and get the cat to the
>>>>> clinic to have the neuter surgery done. The problem is not going to be
>>>>> solved by trying to take the lazy way out and making excuses. Perhaps
>>>>> you should contact Alleycat Allies for instructions on trapping. Their
>>>>> web addy is www.alleycat.org.
>>>>
>>>> That isn't the problem.....I have three other cats, so a trap wouldn't
>>>> work. But I don't need a trap. My wife and I can brush and touch Smokey
>>>> anytime he's here in the house, so putting him in a cat carrier and
>>>> taking him to the Vet would be no problem. The question is,would he
>>>> trust us to touch him in the future should we do that? Bear in mind
>>>> that it took us about 5 years of feeding him before we were able to get
>>>> close enough to him to touch him at all......It's too bad that there
>>>> isn't some chemical that one can put in their food that sterilizes
>>>> them......
>>>>
>>> Why won't a trap work? All of your cats go outside or Smokey only eats
>>> inside? Either way you put food in a trap or large carrier, don't let
>>> your cats in that area until you have Smokey and go for it. He's more
>>> likely to hang out after the surgery because he knows where he has a
>>> good thing and won't be compelled to wander for the usually reasons.
>>>
>> The problem has already been solved.....My friend from across town will
>> come in the house after I put Smokey in a carrier, and take him to the
>> vet while my wife and I are gone. Then Smokey won't associate the
>> traumatic experience with us. When Smokey is ready to come home, my
>> friend will pick him up, and take him to the house and leave him where we
>> left him. Then we will come home, and Smokey won't know that we haven't
>> been gone the whole time, and won't know that we had anything to do with
>> his experience.......
>>
>
> Great and you didn't need a rescue group to do it either.
>
> W
>
Yes. I think it is a good idea.....I am going to talk to this friend this
evening...We are both going to a motorcycle club dinner. I will arrange for
it all to happen......

William Graham
February 15th 07, 11:48 PM
"Cattas Trophee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Feb 14, 7:41 am, "William Graham" > wrote:
>
>
>> I think that declawing is much more painful than neutering....When I had
>> my
>> male cat neutered, it seemed (to me) that it didn't bother him at
>> all
>
> Mebbe. Dont suport declqawing but hd a cat that died frm a spay
> operaton.
>
My wife did too.....Many years ago. But it was a combination spay and shots.
This is a neutering that I will have dons to Smokey, and I will get him his
shots at a later date.....He's pretty tough, so I think it's a worthwhile
thing to do......

MaryL
March 7th 07, 02:49 AM
"Cat Protector" > wrote in message
...
>
> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
> domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away from
> humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have the
> wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
> --
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
> www.panthertekit.com
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
>> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
>> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like my
>> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble and
>> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
>> diseases)
>>
>
>

Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he was
truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- one of
the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20 years
of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct, that
would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and became
a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.

MaryL


MaryL

William Graham
March 7th 07, 04:52 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
>> domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
>> from humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never
>> have the wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>
>> --
>> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>
>> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
>> www.panthertekit.com
>>
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
>>> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
>>> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like
>>> my feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble
>>> and expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
>>> diseases)
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
> when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
> was truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion --
> one of the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost
> 20 years of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was
> correct, that would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a
> marvelous cat and became a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after
> the first two years.
>
> MaryL

Did you ever get him neutered? You got him rather young, too.....I suspect
that the younger you get them, the easier it is to domesticate
them....Especially if you neuter them.....Ours was at least two years old
when I first saw him hunting along our rear property line, and it took me
over a year to get him to come into the bedroom to eat his chopped roasted
chicken.....It was around two years before he spent the night inside the
house. The 5 year statistic is what I have read other places......Ours is
over that already, but we took the pressure of having to hunt away from him,
and he always has a warm place to sleep, too......

MaryL
March 7th 07, 05:12 AM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
>>> be domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
>>> from humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never
>>> have the wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>>> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>>
>>> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
>>> www.panthertekit.com
>>>
>>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>
>>>> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
>>>> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
>>>> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like
>>>> my feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some
>>>> trouble and expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for
>>>> various diseases)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
>> when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
>> was truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion --
>> one of the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost
>> 20 years of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was
>> correct, that would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a
>> marvelous cat and became a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat
>> after the first two years.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> Did you ever get him neutered? You got him rather young, too.....I suspect
> that the younger you get them, the easier it is to domesticate
> them....Especially if you neuter them.....Ours was at least two years old
> when I first saw him hunting along our rear property line, and it took me
> over a year to get him to come into the bedroom to eat his chopped roasted
> chicken.....It was around two years before he spent the night inside the
> house. The 5 year statistic is what I have read other places......Ours is
> over that already, but we took the pressure of having to hunt away from
> him, and he always has a warm place to sleep, too......
>

Yes, I agree that "the younger, the better" when it comes to socializing
feral cats. Many people say even 8 months (my cat's age) is too old for
socializing a feral cat, but it worked beautifully for him. One of the
first things I did was to have him neutered, and he also became an
indoor-only cat after I adopted him -- something else that many people say
will not work with a (formerly) feral cat, but I was able to do it. I did
spend a great many hours just getting to know him and letting him take his
time in getting to know me. I was in graduate school at that time and lived
in town, and eventually I was even able to train him to walk on a harness
and leash so I could take him outdoors.

MaryL

William Graham
March 7th 07, 06:46 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
>>>> be domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy
>>>> away from humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can
>>>> never have the wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>>>> www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>>>
>>>> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
>>>> www.panthertekit.com
>>>>
>>>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>>> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get
>>>>> them neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long
>>>>> healthy lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I
>>>>> would like my feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to
>>>>> some trouble and expense to get him neutered. (as well as get
>>>>> vaccinated for various diseases)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
>>> when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
>>> was truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion --
>>> one of the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost
>>> 20 years of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was
>>> correct, that would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a
>>> marvelous cat and became a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat
>>> after the first two years.
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>
>> Did you ever get him neutered? You got him rather young, too.....I
>> suspect that the younger you get them, the easier it is to domesticate
>> them....Especially if you neuter them.....Ours was at least two years old
>> when I first saw him hunting along our rear property line, and it took me
>> over a year to get him to come into the bedroom to eat his chopped
>> roasted chicken.....It was around two years before he spent the night
>> inside the house. The 5 year statistic is what I have read other
>> places......Ours is over that already, but we took the pressure of having
>> to hunt away from him, and he always has a warm place to sleep, too......
>>
>
> Yes, I agree that "the younger, the better" when it comes to socializing
> feral cats. Many people say even 8 months (my cat's age) is too old for
> socializing a feral cat, but it worked beautifully for him. One of the
> first things I did was to have him neutered, and he also became an
> indoor-only cat after I adopted him -- something else that many people say
> will not work with a (formerly) feral cat, but I was able to do it. I did
> spend a great many hours just getting to know him and letting him take his
> time in getting to know me. I was in graduate school at that time and
> lived in town, and eventually I was even able to train him to walk on a
> harness and leash so I could take him outdoors.
>
> MaryL
>
>
Well, we have three other cats, and they are all outdoor cats, so keeping
the feral car indoors was impossible.....I had to pull a string attached to
the sliding glass door of our bedroom in order to force him to learn to use
the cat doors, however. ( I trapped him in the house until he learned how to
go out) Now, he is almost like the other three cats, but just a little more
skittish.....He won't stay in the house when we have any visitors.....Only
my wife and myself can touch him......but he loves to be brushed, and I
think that is what really, "domesticated" him. If he wants brushing, we are
his only hope.......

MaryL
March 7th 07, 07:38 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree that "the younger, the better" when it comes to socializing
>> feral cats. Many people say even 8 months (my cat's age) is too old for
>> socializing a feral cat, but it worked beautifully for him. One of the
>> first things I did was to have him neutered, and he also became an
>> indoor-only cat after I adopted him -- something else that many people
>> say will not work with a (formerly) feral cat, but I was able to do it.
>> I did spend a great many hours just getting to know him and letting him
>> take his time in getting to know me. I was in graduate school at that
>> time and lived in town, and eventually I was even able to train him to
>> walk on a harness and leash so I could take him outdoors.
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>>
> Well, we have three other cats, and they are all outdoor cats, so keeping
> the feral car indoors was impossible.....I had to pull a string attached
> to the sliding glass door of our bedroom in order to force him to learn to
> use the cat doors, however. ( I trapped him in the house until he learned
> how to go out) Now, he is almost like the other three cats, but just a
> little more skittish.....He won't stay in the house when we have any
> visitors.....Only my wife and myself can touch him......but he loves to be
> brushed, and I think that is what really, "domesticated" him. If he wants
> brushing, we are his only hope.......
>

My cat was an "only cat" for his entire life, so that may have made a
difference. He also loved to be brushed. He had medium-long fur, and when
I trapped/adopted him, he was such a mass of mats and tangles that I could
see his skin being stretched from one mat to another (so tight it literally
"lifted"). It must have been very painful for him. Looking back on it, I
am amazed myself that everything worked out so well. He was my first cat!
If I had known then what I know now, I would have known that it isn't
sensible to adopt a feral cat as the first cat -- I would have known that
more experience is necessary. Well, lucky me and lucky him! I didn't know
that, so I just set to work socializing him, and he became an absolutely
wonderful companion. He also was a happy cat who literally became the
little "king" of my domain. True kitty royalty. I'm going to look for some
of his photos (this was years ago, long before digital cameras) and try to
scan some to add to the pics listed under my signature.

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e

William Graham
March 7th 07, 08:49 PM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree that "the younger, the better" when it comes to socializing
>>> feral cats. Many people say even 8 months (my cat's age) is too old for
>>> socializing a feral cat, but it worked beautifully for him. One of the
>>> first things I did was to have him neutered, and he also became an
>>> indoor-only cat after I adopted him -- something else that many people
>>> say will not work with a (formerly) feral cat, but I was able to do it.
>>> I did spend a great many hours just getting to know him and letting him
>>> take his time in getting to know me. I was in graduate school at that
>>> time and lived in town, and eventually I was even able to train him to
>>> walk on a harness and leash so I could take him outdoors.
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>>
>>>
>> Well, we have three other cats, and they are all outdoor cats, so keeping
>> the feral car indoors was impossible.....I had to pull a string attached
>> to the sliding glass door of our bedroom in order to force him to learn
>> to use the cat doors, however. ( I trapped him in the house until he
>> learned how to go out) Now, he is almost like the other three cats, but
>> just a little more skittish.....He won't stay in the house when we have
>> any visitors.....Only my wife and myself can touch him......but he loves
>> to be brushed, and I think that is what really, "domesticated" him. If he
>> wants brushing, we are his only hope.......
>>
>
> My cat was an "only cat" for his entire life, so that may have made a
> difference. He also loved to be brushed. He had medium-long fur, and
> when I trapped/adopted him, he was such a mass of mats and tangles that I
> could see his skin being stretched from one mat to another (so tight it
> literally "lifted"). It must have been very painful for him. Looking
> back on it, I am amazed myself that everything worked out so well. He was
> my first cat! If I had known then what I know now, I would have known that
> it isn't sensible to adopt a feral cat as the first cat -- I would have
> known that more experience is necessary. Well, lucky me and lucky him! I
> didn't know that, so I just set to work socializing him, and he became an
> absolutely wonderful companion. He also was a happy cat who literally
> became the little "king" of my domain. True kitty royalty. I'm going to
> look for some of his photos (this was years ago, long before digital
> cameras) and try to scan some to add to the pics listed under my
> signature.
>
> MaryL

Cats are habit forming....We had one, and when she died, we said, "We'll
never get another cat, because no one can ever be as good as, "Missy"
was.....But then, the cat from across the street, (Meggie) adopted us
because her family got a dog, and then the mother of the lady next door
died, and her husband was allergic to cats, so we got Juney, and one night,
just before they closed, I was in the Burger King parking lot, and a young
black cat was pawing at my burger bag saying, "Can I have some of your
hamburgers dad?" and so we picked up, "B-K". And so, together with Smokey,
the feral cat, we have four of them!

Sherry
March 8th 07, 05:38 AM
On Mar 6, 8:49�pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
wrote:
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never be
> > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away from
> > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have the
> > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
> > --
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
> >www.panthertekit.com
>
> > "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
> >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
> >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like my
> >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble and
> >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
> >> diseases)
>
> Not true! *My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
> when I trapped him. *It took about two years before I would say that he was
> truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- one of
> the best and most loving cats I have seen. *He lived to be almost 20 years
> of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct, that
> would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). *He was a marvelous cat and became
> a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>
> MaryL

I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
Sherry

William Graham
March 8th 07, 07:38 AM
"Sherry" > wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 6, 8:49?pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
wrote:
> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
> > be
> > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
> > from
> > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have
> > the
> > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
> > --
> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
> >www.panthertekit.com
>
> > "William Graham" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
> >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
> >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like
> >> my
> >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble
> >> and
> >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
> >> diseases)
>
> Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
> when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he was
> truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- one
> of
> the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20 years
> of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct,
> that
> would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and
> became
> a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>
> MaryL

I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
Sherry

I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However, I
wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get along
with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the counter to
eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the floor) So she
whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on the counter, she
turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then, as soon as she is
done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts her arthritic
joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you for touching
her......

Barbara
March 8th 07, 01:28 PM
Has she always done that? Maybe it hurts her when she picked up??

--
Barb
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sherry" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> On Mar 6, 8:49?pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
> wrote:
>> "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
>> > be
>> > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
>> > from
>> > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have
>> > the
>> > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>
>> > --
>> > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>> >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>
>> > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
>> >www.panthertekit.com
>>
>> > "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>> >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get
>> >> them
>> >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
>> >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like
>> >> my
>> >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble
>> >> and
>> >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
>> >> diseases)
>>
>> Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
>> when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
>> was
>> truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- one
>> of
>> the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20 years
>> of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct,
>> that
>> would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and
>> became
>> a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
> who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
> sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
> ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
> skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
> admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
> Sherry
>
> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However,
> I wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get
> along with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the
> counter to eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the
> floor) So she whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on
> the counter, she turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then,
> as soon as she is done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts
> her arthritic joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you
> for touching her......
>
>

Sherry
March 8th 07, 04:00 PM
On Mar 8, 1:38?am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Sherry" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
> On Mar 6, 8:49?pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will never
> > > be
> > > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
> > > from
> > > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never have
> > > the
> > > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
> > > --
> > > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> > >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> > > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
> > >www.panthertekit.com
>
> > > "William Graham" > wrote in message
> > . ..
>
> > >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get them
> > >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long healthy
> > >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would like
> > >> my
> > >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some trouble
> > >> and
> > >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
> > >> diseases)
>
> > Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
> > when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he was
> > truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- one
> > of
> > the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20 years
> > of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct,
> > that
> > would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and
> > became
> > a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>
> > MaryL
>
> I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
> who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
> sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
> ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
> skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
> admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
> Sherry
>
> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However, I
> wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get along
> with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the counter to
> eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the floor) So she
> whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on the counter, she
> turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then, as soon as she is
> done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts her arthritic
> joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you for touching
> her......- Hide quoted text -

I have one who absolutely *hates* to be picked up, and another who
only lets DH touch her. Cats are just so funny, affection is certainly
on *their* terms.
I guess there are different levels of "tame" re: ferals also. It's
certainly possible that they'll always be more leery of humans than a
cat raised with people. I just hated to see minsinformation like that
posted about ferals. I've got three ferals I brought in from the
shelter that were scheduled for euthanasia. I figured being a barn cat
was a better life for them than being dead. I've had them for several
years now. I have not tried to tame them, but I do feed them every
day. They're pretty calm around me now, but not anyone else.
Sherry

William Graham
March 8th 07, 05:50 PM
"Barbara" > wrote in message
...
> Has she always done that? Maybe it hurts her when she picked up??
>
> --
> Barb

Yes, she has always been something of a bitch who didn't particularly like
people, and who didn't like being touched or messed with......It's just part
of her nasty personality. And when they got the dog, who eats her food, that
didn't help, either. But you'd think that when you do something to help her,
she would be nice to you for a few seconds, at least.....They have another
cat, and she doesn't get along with her, either.....:^)

William Graham
March 8th 07, 05:58 PM
"Sherry" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 8, 1:38?am, "William Graham" > wrote:
>> "Sherry" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>> On Mar 6, 8:49?pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will
>> > > never
>> > > be
>> > > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
>> > > from
>> > > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never
>> > > have
>> > > the
>> > > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>>
>> > > --
>> > > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
>> > >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>>
>> > > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
>> > >www.panthertekit.com
>>
>> > > "William Graham" > wrote in message
>> > . ..
>>
>> > >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get
>> > >> them
>> > >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long
>> > >> healthy
>> > >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would
>> > >> like
>> > >> my
>> > >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some
>> > >> trouble
>> > >> and
>> > >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
>> > >> diseases)
>>
>> > Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
>> > when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
>> > was
>> > truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion --
>> > one
>> > of
>> > the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20
>> > years
>> > of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct,
>> > that
>> > would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and
>> > became
>> > a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>>
>> > MaryL
>>
>> I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
>> who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
>> sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
>> ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
>> skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
>> admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
>> Sherry
>>
>> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
>> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However,
>> I
>> wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
>> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get
>> along
>> with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the counter
>> to
>> eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the floor) So she
>> whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on the counter,
>> she
>> turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then, as soon as she
>> is
>> done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts her arthritic
>> joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you for touching
>> her......- Hide quoted text -
>
> I have one who absolutely *hates* to be picked up, and another who
> only lets DH touch her. Cats are just so funny, affection is certainly
> on *their* terms.
> I guess there are different levels of "tame" re: ferals also. It's
> certainly possible that they'll always be more leery of humans than a
> cat raised with people. I just hated to see minsinformation like that
> posted about ferals. I've got three ferals I brought in from the
> shelter that were scheduled for euthanasia. I figured being a barn cat
> was a better life for them than being dead. I've had them for several
> years now. I have not tried to tame them, but I do feed them every
> day. They're pretty calm around me now, but not anyone else.
> Sherry
>
I like them because I respect independence....It's just part of my
personality. My cousin used to have three "wild" cats that kept the birds
away from her grapes. (She and her husband were part owners of Sovereign
Vineyards) these were really lean, mean Siamese breeds. She never fed them,
but only gave them water. They were able to sustain themselves by eating
birds and mice on the grape farm. But they seemed to like the company of
people, and when they weren't hunting, they would sleep around 20 feet or so
from us while we were talking on my cousin's veranda.

Sherry
March 8th 07, 10:45 PM
On Mar 8, 11:58�am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Sherry" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 8, 1:38?am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> >> "Sherry" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com.> >> On Mar 6, 8:49?pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > "Cat Protector" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
>
> >> > > Where the hell do you get your information from? Feral cats will
> >> > > never
> >> > > be
> >> > > domesticated even after the spay/neuter surgery and normally shy away
> >> > > from
> >> > > humans accept maybe their caretaker. Even domestic cats can never
> >> > > have
> >> > > the
> >> > > wild predatory nature bred out of them.
>
> >> > > --
> >> > > Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!
> >> > >www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> >> > > Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!
> >> > >www.panthertekit.com
>
> >> > > "William Graham" > wrote in message
> >> > . ..
>
> >> > >> Feral male cats only live about 5 years on the average. If you get
> >> > >> them
> >> > >> neutered, they will usually become domesticated and life long
> >> > >> healthy
> >> > >> lives. If I cared only for myself, I wouldn't bother. But I would
> >> > >> like
> >> > >> my
> >> > >> feral male to live a long time, so I am willing to go to some
> >> > >> trouble
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> expense to get him neutered. (as well as get vaccinated for various
> >> > >> diseases)
>
> >> > Not true! My first cat was feral, estimated to be about 8 months of age
> >> > when I trapped him. It took about two years before I would say that he
> >> > was
> >> > truly bonded, but after that he was a wonderful, loving companion -- *
> >> > one
> >> > of
> >> > the best and most loving cats I have seen. He lived to be almost 20
> >> > years
> >> > of age (assuming that the 8 months at the time of adoption was correct,
> >> > that
> >> > would have made him 19-3/4 when he died). He was a marvelous cat and
> >> > became
> >> > a completely trusting (and trustworthy) cat after the first two years.
>
> >> > MaryL
>
> >> I was waiting on someone to debunk that bunk. I know *many* people
> >> who've trapped & adopted ferals who became wonderful companions. I'm
> >> sure a lot of people here remember Cheryl & Bonnie. Phil also has ex-
> >> ferals. They're difficult to tame, and require endless patience,
> >> skill, and an understanding of the feral cat. I have the utmost
> >> admiration for those who have successfully tamed ferals.
> >> Sherry
>
> >> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
> >> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However,
> >> I
> >> wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
> >> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get
> >> along
> >> with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the counter
> >> to
> >> eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the floor) So she
> >> whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on the counter,
> >> she
> >> turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then, as soon as she
> >> is
> >> done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts her arthritic
> >> joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you for touching
> >> her......- Hide quoted text -
>
> > I have one who absolutely *hates* to be picked up, and another who
> > only lets DH touch her. Cats are just so funny, affection is certainly
> > on *their* terms.
> > I guess there are different levels of "tame" re: ferals also. It's
> > certainly possible that they'll always be more leery of humans than a
> > cat raised with people. I just hated to see minsinformation like that
> > posted about ferals. I've got three ferals I brought in from the
> > shelter that were scheduled for euthanasia. I figured being a barn cat
> > was a better life for them than being dead. I've had them for several
> > years now. I have not tried to tame them, but I do feed them every
> > day. They're pretty calm around me now, but not anyone else.
> > Sherry
>
> I like them because I respect independence....It's just part of my
> personality. My cousin used to have three "wild" cats that kept the birds
> away from her grapes. (She and her husband were part owners of Sovereign
> Vineyards) these were really lean, mean Siamese breeds. She never fed them,
> but only gave them water. They were able to sustain themselves by eating
> birds and mice on the grape farm. But they seemed to like the company of
> people, and when they weren't hunting, they would sleep around 20 feet or so
> from us while we were talking on my cousin's veranda.- Hide quoted text -

Oh yes. I have a lot of respect for "the working cat too. Honestly,
they provide a necessary service. I do feed mine but I suspect their
major diet is rats and mice. One curious thing about them. They look
*different* than my house cats. Their ears are bigger for one thing.
But mostly, they are really beautifully built. They have good coats,
and are lean and muscled. I wonder if it's the mice :-) It's not a bad
life really. I brought home four of them, the H.S. got them neutered
before I picked them up. One, sadly, came to a very bad end. I found
him dead in the pasture, but he was too decomposed to tell what
happened to him. The other three are thriving. It's been nearly five
years since I got them. I never named them either, that's weird for
me. I guess I was afraid I'd get too attached to them and end up with
four more cats in the house. They will come to me very close, but
won't let me touch them.
I had a cat with a seriously nasty personality like yours. He was so
bad I noticed the word FRACTIOUS written in giant red letters on top
of his vet's chart. I loved that cat dearly. I've still got scars from
his temper tantrums.
Sherry
Sherry

MaryL
March 8th 07, 11:24 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However,
> I wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get
> along with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the
> counter to eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the
> floor) So she whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on
> the counter, she turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then,
> as soon as she is done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts
> her arthritic joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you
> for touching her......
>
>

Well, it certainly should be clear that we should not try to socialize an
animal "big enough to eat you alive. That would be sheer lunacy. However,
concerning your illustration of the cat that spits and tries to scratch as
soon as she is put down...some cats simply do not like to be held. *They*
want to make the decision, not their hoomins. So, why not suggest that your
wife's daughter set up some carpeted steps that lead to the counter? They
are sold at a variety of pet stores (or could easily be made). Even a step
ladder with wide steps could be set up as a temporary arrangement if she
doesn't want the counter to be available to her cat at all times.

MaryL

William Graham
March 9th 07, 04:36 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> I believe you can tame any wild animal with enough patience, and if you
>> don't mind getting scratched and/or bitten from time to time.....However,
>> I wouldn't recommend it with animals that are big enough to eat you
>> alive.....:^) But even some domestic cats can be nasty and hard to get
>> along with. My wife's daughter has one who is too old to jump up on the
>> counter to eat. (they have a dog who eats the cat food if it's on the
>> floor) So she whines to be picked up. But, as soon as you set her down on
>> the counter, she turns and spits at you and tried to scratch you....Then,
>> as soon as she is done eating, she whines to be let down. (the jump hurts
>> her arthritic joints) and when you do, she again hisses and spits at you
>> for touching her......
>>
>>
>
> Well, it certainly should be clear that we should not try to socialize an
> animal "big enough to eat you alive. That would be sheer lunacy.
> However, concerning your illustration of the cat that spits and tries to
> scratch as soon as she is put down...some cats simply do not like to be
> held. *They* want to make the decision, not their hoomins. So, why not
> suggest that your wife's daughter set up some carpeted steps that lead to
> the counter? They are sold at a variety of pet stores (or could easily be
> made). Even a step ladder with wide steps could be set up as a temporary
> arrangement if she doesn't want the counter to be available to her cat at
> all times.
>
> MaryL
>
>
That would work if it weren't for the dog....This dog is something
else.....Just a puppy, but big as a house, and on the run all the
time.....He would scamper up any staircase that would work for the cat. but
the dog is growing up.....Maybe he'll settle down in a year or two......

Dan Espen
March 9th 07, 01:49 PM
"William Graham" > writes:

> That would work if it weren't for the dog....This dog is something
> else.....Just a puppy, but big as a house, and on the run all the
> time.....He would scamper up any staircase that would work for the cat. but
> the dog is growing up.....Maybe he'll settle down in a year or two......

I had a friend with an Irish Setter that was always on the move.
Well, that's putting it lightly.
I personally saw that dog circle a room mostly running on the walls.
He ran straight across my chest while I was sitting down.

He often said the dog would eventually settle down.
The dog lived to old age.

He settled down about a month before he died.

James
March 9th 07, 10:58 PM
Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
the excess cats?

You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.

You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
very expensive.

It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.

Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.


In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.

Upscale
March 9th 07, 11:20 PM
"James" > wrote in message
>
> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.

That's wrong actually, In reality, declawing is several orders of pain worse
than circumcision.

Christina Websell
March 9th 07, 11:30 PM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws.


In brief, cats come complete with claws on all four feet. If you can't deal
with this, don't have a cat. It's as simple as that for me.
Declawing is illegal in Europe. It should be illegal everywhere.

T

bookie
March 9th 07, 11:45 PM
On 9 Mar, 22:58, "James" > wrote:
> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?
>
> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>
> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
> very expensive.
>
> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.
>
> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>
> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.

i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....

firstly, i do nto have loads of spare time to clip and 'care' for my
cats claws, but what i do do is provide them with scratching posts and
ample outside space in order for them to deal with their claws
themselves ie scratch things and remove old claw sheaths etc.

secondly, maybe if you anal americans unclenched your buttocks for a
once in your ****ed up lives and stopped obsessing about your precious
****ing furniture and realised that an animal has certain instinctual
behaviours, such as scratching and marking in cats, that it must
carry out, then you would not get all uptight about your bloody
material possessions like your crappy cheap furniture and your ****ty
cardboard houses and not worry about a few scratches here and there.
Surely having a beautiful creature like a cat living with your and
sharing your space, unsullied by unnecessary and painful surgery which
has been carried out purely for the protection of inanimate objects,
is far superior to any objet d'art or item of furniture you can ever
purchase for your abode? anyone who puts the value of some bit of
furniture (which lets face can be replaced) or other inanimate object
over the welfare and comfort of an animal obviously has their
priorities VERY wrong and should not be allowed to have an animal in
their care, not even a bloody stick insect.

thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
think you would.

the reason there are so many cats and ogs in shelters and puttig
euthanised inyour ****e country is because the majority of your
brainless and inbred countrymen are pathetic and useless when it comes
to caring for their animals. You treat your animals and pets like
objects to be chucked out when you can't be bothered with them any
longer or when they start to make a mess around the house an you seem
to have no grasp of the idea of taking proper responsibility for the
animals you take in as pets when they are young and cute, in general
you make me ****ign sick with your attitude to animals. If you people
were a bit more bloody responsible and not so entrenched in your
'throwaway' material culture where everything has a price and anything
you no longer can be bothered with taking care of can be disposed of
in an instant, even people and animals, then you would not have the
problem of overcrowded animal shelters would you?

what needs to eb done inyour country (apart from getting rid of that
moron of a president) is some serious education of the young to get
them to realise that every living creature has a right to life and a
good life too and that animals are not disposable playthings to be
thrown away when they are bored of them or when the 'next big thing'
comes around. Teaching your young people to respect animals and to
care for them and to value these animals over inanimate objects and
other material goods would go a long way to controlling the numbers of
stray, abandoned and homeless animals in your country and stop
shelters having to kill homeless acts and dogs needlessly.

think about it ****wit; the only reason half these animals are chucked
out is not because they have scratched the furniture it is because
their stupid ****ing owners are too screwed up to realise that a few
scratches on a bit of crappy furniture is par for the course if you
have animals in your home and is quite frankly not a great issue in
the grand scheme of things. If they really do put the worth of their
furniture over the well being of an animal then they shoudl not have
pets in the first place should they?

it is re education and a change in attitudes which is the answer, NOT
declawing

**** me some people are ****ing thick aren't they?
bookie

**** it, I'm opening that tin of biscuits, I'm angry now and only
chocolate can sort it out

William Graham
March 10th 07, 12:34 AM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> "William Graham" > writes:
>
>> That would work if it weren't for the dog....This dog is something
>> else.....Just a puppy, but big as a house, and on the run all the
>> time.....He would scamper up any staircase that would work for the cat.
>> but
>> the dog is growing up.....Maybe he'll settle down in a year or two......
>
> I had a friend with an Irish Setter that was always on the move.
> Well, that's putting it lightly.
> I personally saw that dog circle a room mostly running on the walls.
> He ran straight across my chest while I was sitting down.
>
> He often said the dog would eventually settle down.
> The dog lived to old age.
>
> He settled down about a month before he died.

Reminds me of the dog my sister had many years ago....She was a civilian
employee of the US Army, and she was stationed in Teheran. She got "Pandy"
on the streets of that city when he was a puppy....He grew enormous, and had
this penchant for killing other dogs.....He got loose once, and ran down the
street (In San Diego, California) killing neighborhood dogs as he went.....
He would do the same thing....Run around and around her living room on the
walls.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 12:49 AM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "James" > wrote in message
>>
>> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
>> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.
>
> That's wrong actually, In reality, declawing is several orders of pain
> worse
> than circumcision.
>
>
Yes. It's the same as if you had the tips of all your fingers cut off.....If
they don't go that far, the claws will grow back.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 12:53 AM
"Christina Websell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "James" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws.
>
>
> In brief, cats come complete with claws on all four feet. If you can't
> deal with this, don't have a cat. It's as simple as that for me.
> Declawing is illegal in Europe. It should be illegal everywhere.
>
> T

That's right.....If you want a cat without claws, then get a snake.....Cats
need their claws....They are an integral part of the animals protection
system, and general lifestyle....Without claws, they can neither protect
themselves, nor even climb trees and fences to get away from dogs, and other
predators.

22brix
March 10th 07, 12:56 AM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws

Then they shouldn't have a cat. It takes me about 10 minutes every week or
two to trim the claws of my 7 cats. Lets see--10 foreclaws and 8 hind claws
per cat equals 18 claws per cat times 7 cats which equals 126 claws in
total. 10 minutes. Hardly a valid reason to declaw.

.. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?

Hard to follow your "logic" here.
>
> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.

Many idiots let them out even if they're declawed and they're much more
vulnerable than a regular alley cat.

>
> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
> very expensive.

Maybe, maybe not. People that are that concerned about their furniture
might also have the cat euthanized if it peed outside its litter box or if
it keeps them up at night or whatever.
>
> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.

That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping a cat inside
with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about keeping its nails
trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.

>
> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.

Huh?
>
>
> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.
>
Let's chop off the tips of your fingers and toes and then let you walk
around on them. You really can't compare cutting off some skin with
declawing. Again, it's like comparing apples to oranges. You need to
educate yourself about declawing. It's mutilation, pure and simple and
strictly for the convenience of the owner.

Bonnie

William Graham
March 10th 07, 01:02 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On 9 Mar, 22:58, "James" > wrote:
>> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
>> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
>> the excess cats?
>>
>> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>>
>> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
>> very expensive.
>>
>> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.
>>
>> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
>> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
>> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>>
>> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
>> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.
>
> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>
> firstly, i do nto have loads of spare time to clip and 'care' for my
> cats claws, but what i do do is provide them with scratching posts and
> ample outside space in order for them to deal with their claws
> themselves ie scratch things and remove old claw sheaths etc.
>
> secondly, maybe if you anal americans unclenched your buttocks for a

It's not just "Americans" who mistreat animals....As a matter of fact, pets
here in the US usually go top drawer, and get the best treatment anywhere.
The Chinese and many peoples in the Mid East are much tougher on animals
than we are. You are probably watching too many episodes on "Animal
Planet"......so all you see are the mistreated American animals. If you knew
about all the ones in other countries, you would change your mind.....

Billy U
March 10th 07, 01:10 AM
> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>


Emily:

Way to go on the rational discourse. You make persuasive arguments, not
the least of which that it is wise to offer social commentary on Americans
and find a rather strained way to inject politics into a discussion about
declawing cats.

ChildFree23
March 10th 07, 01:31 AM
Jimbo, please pay attention:

> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?

What does declawing have to do with spaying and neutering? They are, and
should be, two entirely separate surgical procedures.

> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.

Who's to say it won't escape, i.e., charging the door when it is opened?

> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
> very expensive.

No, but it could be killed for BITING instead of scratching. Yes, declawed
cats often turn into biters.

> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.

How do you justify ripping off a digit of your cat's front paws? We're
talking AMPUTATION here!

> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.

I tell the cat first you have to learn some house manners, a component of
which is to NOT scratch the furniturre.

> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.

Having a licensed physician, or in come cases a "moyle" remove the foreskin
of the penis does not leave said male babies defenseless in the wild.
Removing a cat's claws does!

I'd rather have a ripped up leather sofa than a cat without claws!

Debby Hanoka
dhanokaatearthlinkdotnet

ChildFree23
March 10th 07, 01:35 AM
> In brief, cats come complete with claws on all four feet. If you can't
> deal with this, don't have a cat. It's as simple as that for me.
> Declawing is illegal in Europe. It should be illegal everywhere.

Here here! It's also illegal in West Hollywood, California, and more and
more American vets each year are refusing to declaw cats at all.

Debby Hanoka
dhanokaatearthlinkdotnet

Professor
March 10th 07, 01:56 AM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?
>
> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>
> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
> very expensive.
>
> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.
>
> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>
>
> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.

They should chop off your penis, idiot.

Sherry
March 10th 07, 02:47 AM
On Mar 9, 6:56?pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>
People that are that concerned about their furniture
> might also have the cat euthanized if it peed outside its litter box or if
> it keeps them up at night or whatever.

Absolutely true. And the ironic thing is, a botched declaw can cause
the cat to live in pain the rest of its life--which in turns makes the
poor thing neurotic and it *does* start peeing outside the box. It's
also quite common for a declawed cat to become a biter.

Sherry

Dan Espen
March 10th 07, 04:05 AM
"William Graham" > writes:

> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "William Graham" > writes:
>>
>>> That would work if it weren't for the dog....This dog is something
>>> else.....Just a puppy, but big as a house, and on the run all the
>>> time.....He would scamper up any staircase that would work for the cat.
>>> but
>>> the dog is growing up.....Maybe he'll settle down in a year or two......
>>
>> I had a friend with an Irish Setter that was always on the move.
>> Well, that's putting it lightly.
>> I personally saw that dog circle a room mostly running on the walls.
>> He ran straight across my chest while I was sitting down.
>>
>> He often said the dog would eventually settle down.
>> The dog lived to old age.
>>
>> He settled down about a month before he died.
>
> Reminds me of the dog my sister had many years ago....She was a civilian
> employee of the US Army, and she was stationed in Teheran. She got "Pandy"
> on the streets of that city when he was a puppy....He grew enormous, and had
> this penchant for killing other dogs.....He got loose once, and ran down the
> street (In San Diego, California) killing neighborhood dogs as he went.....
> He would do the same thing....Run around and around her living room on the
> walls.

Before I saw it first hand I would have said it was impossible.

Never heard of dog killer. What kind of dog was that?

Fred G. Mackey
March 10th 07, 04:18 AM
bookie wrote:
> On 9 Mar, 22:58, "James" > wrote:

>
> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>
> firstly, i do nto have loads of spare time to clip and 'care' for my
> cats claws, but what i do do is provide them with scratching posts and
> ample outside space in order for them to deal with their claws
> themselves ie scratch things and remove old claw sheaths etc.

scratching posts seem to work well for my cat - she takes cares of her
own claws. I wouldn't even know how to clip them.

>
> secondly, maybe if you anal americans unclenched your buttocks for a
> once in your ****ed up lives and stopped obsessing about your precious
> ****ing furniture and realised that an animal has certain instinctual
> behaviours, such as scratching and marking in cats, that it must
> carry out, then you would not get all uptight about your bloody
> material possessions like your crappy cheap furniture and your ****ty
> cardboard houses and not worry about a few scratches here and there.

Wow - well, at least you "tried" to stay calm. I would take offense at
your remark, but at least you had the good sense to only refer to the
"anal americans" and not Americans in general.


<snip>
>
> thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong,

Agreed - 'nuff said.

>
> the reason there are so many cats and ogs in shelters and puttig
> euthanised inyour ****e country

**** off.

You don't have to like our country, but I don't have to like your
remarks about it either.


<snip hate-filled, ignorant remarks about the US>

Tell me this: Where the **** did you learn about our country? North Korea?

>
> **** me some people are ****ing thick aren't they?

You're living proof of that.

> bookie
>
> **** it, I'm opening that tin of biscuits, I'm angry now and only
> chocolate can sort it out
>


Your problem, not mine or my country's. What? Do you expect us to send
you billions in foreign aid now? **** off.

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 04:51 AM
William Graham wrote:

> "Christina Websell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>>Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws.
>>
>>
>>In brief, cats come complete with claws on all four feet. If you can't
>>deal with this, don't have a cat. It's as simple as that for me.
>>Declawing is illegal in Europe. It should be illegal everywhere.
>>
>>T
>
>
> That's right.....If you want a cat without claws, then get a snake.....Cats
> need their claws....They are an integral part of the animals protection
> system, and general lifestyle....Without claws, they can neither protect
> themselves, nor even climb trees and fences to get away from dogs, and other
> predators.
>
>
Nor can they relieve tension, which then makes them agressive biters,
which then leads to their being put down. Hence, delcawing does NOT
save cat lives.

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 04:52 AM
James wrote:

> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?
>
> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>
> You know it's not going to be killed because it scratched something
> very expensive.
>
> It might not have claws but it's better than being an alley cat.
>
> Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>
>
> In the South male babies routinely get the penis chop even though
> they're not Jewish. Declawing a cat couldn't be worse than that.
>


http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 04:54 AM
TROLL - O - METER

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
--------------------------------------
^
|

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 04:57 AM
Fred G. Mackey wrote:

> bookie wrote:
>
>> On 9 Mar, 22:58, "James" > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>>
>> firstly, i do nto have loads of spare time to clip and 'care' for my
>> cats claws, but what i do do is provide them with scratching posts and
>> ample outside space in order for them to deal with their claws
>> themselves ie scratch things and remove old claw sheaths etc.
>
>
> scratching posts seem to work well for my cat - she takes cares of her
> own claws. I wouldn't even know how to clip them.

Same here. Scratching posts and training.
>
>>
>> secondly, maybe if you anal americans unclenched your buttocks for a
>> once in your ****ed up lives and stopped obsessing about your precious
>> ****ing furniture and realised that an animal has certain instinctual
>> behaviours, such as scratching and marking in cats, that it must
>> carry out, then you would not get all uptight about your bloody
>> material possessions like your crappy cheap furniture and your ****ty
>> cardboard houses and not worry about a few scratches here and there.
>
>
> Wow - well, at least you "tried" to stay calm. I would take offense at
> your remark, but at least you had the good sense to only refer to the
> "anal americans" and not Americans in general.

Actually, I think she meant the "anal" as an adjective for all
Americans. That kind of thing does nothing for her argument, but she
is right about declawing.

>
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong,
>
>
> Agreed - 'nuff said.
>
>>
>> the reason there are so many cats and ogs in shelters and puttig
>> euthanised inyour ****e country
>
>
> **** off.
>
> You don't have to like our country, but I don't have to like your
> remarks about it either.

Here, here...
>
>
> <snip hate-filled, ignorant remarks about the US>
>
> Tell me this: Where the **** did you learn about our country? North
> Korea?
>
>>
>> **** me some people are ****ing thick aren't they?
>
>
> You're living proof of that.
>
>> bookie
>>
>> **** it, I'm opening that tin of biscuits, I'm angry now and only
>> chocolate can sort it out
>>
>
>
> Your problem, not mine or my country's. What? Do you expect us to send
> you billions in foreign aid now? **** off.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 04:58 AM
"Dan Espen" > wrote in message
...
> "William Graham" > writes:
>
>> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "William Graham" > writes:
>>>
>>>> That would work if it weren't for the dog....This dog is something
>>>> else.....Just a puppy, but big as a house, and on the run all the
>>>> time.....He would scamper up any staircase that would work for the cat.
>>>> but
>>>> the dog is growing up.....Maybe he'll settle down in a year or
>>>> two......
>>>
>>> I had a friend with an Irish Setter that was always on the move.
>>> Well, that's putting it lightly.
>>> I personally saw that dog circle a room mostly running on the walls.
>>> He ran straight across my chest while I was sitting down.
>>>
>>> He often said the dog would eventually settle down.
>>> The dog lived to old age.
>>>
>>> He settled down about a month before he died.
>>
>> Reminds me of the dog my sister had many years ago....She was a civilian
>> employee of the US Army, and she was stationed in Teheran. She got
>> "Pandy"
>> on the streets of that city when he was a puppy....He grew enormous, and
>> had
>> this penchant for killing other dogs.....He got loose once, and ran down
>> the
>> street (In San Diego, California) killing neighborhood dogs as he
>> went.....
>> He would do the same thing....Run around and around her living room on
>> the
>> walls.
>
> Before I saw it first hand I would have said it was impossible.
>
> Never heard of dog killer. What kind of dog was that?

He was a mix.....Looked kind of like a wire haired terrier, with kind of a
square snout, except he was a lot bigger, so one of his parents must have
been enormous.......

James
March 10th 07, 08:14 AM
> what needs to eb done inyour country (apart from getting rid of that
> moron of a president)

This is the only part of your crazy rant that makes sense. The rest
of your message qualifies you for a patted cell.

James
March 10th 07, 08:31 AM
On Mar 9, 7:56 pm, "22brix" > wrote:

> That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping a cat inside
> with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about keeping its nails
> trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.
>
That's fine if possible. If not, a mutilated cat in a loving home is
better off than any unwanted intact cat.

>
>
> > Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> > get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> > shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>
> Huh?
Unwanted cats killed because noone wants them. Some one might want
one if declawed.


> Let's chop off the tips of your fingers and toes and then let you walk
> around on them. You really can't compare cutting off some skin with
> declawing. Again, it's like comparing apples to oranges. You need to
> educate yourself about declawing. It's mutilation, pure and simple and
> strictly for the convenience of the owner.
>
People by the thousands get limbs blown off by cheap mines but few of
them would choose die because they lack a limb or two. I'm sure a cat
would rather be declawed than be put to sleep.

Unless there are enough people willing to adopt all the unwanted cats,
declawing is a much better option than death for the convenience of
people.

James
March 10th 07, 08:51 AM
Question for those of you who are mad anti-declawing.

I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
than declawing)?

Upscale
March 10th 07, 01:22 PM
"James" > wrote in message
>
> I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
> experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
> than declawing)?

You're missing the point. To get to a relatively painless declawed state, a
cat has to go through a prolonged, painful process and the end result is
essentially a form of disability. You're comparing it to being preferable to
being an unwanted alley cat is equivalent to saying that you'd be willing to
go through a year of torture so you can live the next 60 years in relative
comfort. It just doesn't work out that way. Anyone who has gone through
torture is emotionally scarred for life as would any feeling animal. To say
at any point that it was worthwhile is completely ludicrous.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 03:21 PM
"James" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Question for those of you who are mad anti-declawing.
>
> I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
> experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
> than declawing)?
>
Declawing is mistreatment enough. I'd rather put mine to sleep. - But around
here, where I live, no cat goes hungry. There are more than enough good
homes for them all. (I live in geezerville, where the little old ladies
outnumber the cats like two to one.....) We bought none of our four
cats....they all wandered in and decided to stay just because they liked the
cut of our jib. They all had other choices, and they all know all the
neighbors.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 03:25 PM
"Upscale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "James" > wrote in message
>>
>> I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
>> experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
>> than declawing)?
>
> You're missing the point. To get to a relatively painless declawed state,
> a
> cat has to go through a prolonged, painful process and the end result is
> essentially a form of disability. You're comparing it to being preferable
> to
> being an unwanted alley cat is equivalent to saying that you'd be willing
> to
> go through a year of torture so you can live the next 60 years in relative
> comfort. It just doesn't work out that way. Anyone who has gone through
> torture is emotionally scarred for life as would any feeling animal. To
> say
> at any point that it was worthwhile is completely ludicrous.
>
>
Yes. Death is better. After all, we all will die eventually. Why put your
cat through such torture? If you can't live with him, then let him go so he
can find himself another home. And if you can't do that, then have him put
to sleep. More and more, as I get older, I have come to realize that humans
don't deserve animals.....They are far too good for miserable creatures like
us.

James
March 10th 07, 03:50 PM
On Mar 10, 10:21 am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "James" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...> Question for those of you who are mad anti-declawing.
>
> > I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
> > experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
> > than declawing)?
>
> Declawing is mistreatment enough. I'd rather put mine to sleep. - But around
> here, where I live, no cat goes hungry. There are more than enough good
> homes for them all. (I live in geezerville, where the little old ladies
> outnumber the cats like two to one.....) We bought none of our four
> cats....they all wandered in and decided to stay just because they liked the
> cut of our jib. They all had other choices, and they all know all the
> neighbors.

Hey, maybe we can send unwanted cats to geezerville.

James
March 10th 07, 04:01 PM
On Mar 9, 8:31 pm, "ChildFree23" > wrote:
> Jimbo, please pay attention:

> I tell the cat first you have to learn some house manners, a component of
> which is to NOT scratch the furniturre.
>
Easier said than done.


> Having a licensed physician, or in come cases a "moyle" remove the foreskin
> of the penis does not leave said male babies defenseless in the wild.
> Removing a cat's claws does!
>
They are supposed to be indoor house cats who don't need defenses in
the wild.

I do see your point about escape. My pussy often like to follow me
around and once sneaked into my car. Didn't see her till I've driven
off.

William Graham
March 10th 07, 04:18 PM
"James" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On Mar 9, 8:31 pm, "ChildFree23" > wrote:
>> Jimbo, please pay attention:
>
>> I tell the cat first you have to learn some house manners, a component of
>> which is to NOT scratch the furniturre.
>>
> Easier said than done.
>
>
>> Having a licensed physician, or in come cases a "moyle" remove the
>> foreskin
>> of the penis does not leave said male babies defenseless in the wild.
>> Removing a cat's claws does!
>>
> They are supposed to be indoor house cats who don't need defenses in
> the wild.
>
> I do see your point about escape. My pussy often like to follow me
> around and once sneaked into my car. Didn't see her till I've driven
> off.
>
Yeah....We have one who rode all the way from Connecticut to Salem, Oregon
in a car, so she loves to hide/sleep in our car, and doesn't warn us that
she's there when we take off, either. I am afraid that she will sleep in
someone else's car and get taken to some unknown place.....but the neighbors
all know her, so it isn't very likely that I would lose her that way......

Upscale
March 10th 07, 05:47 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
> >
> Yeah....We have one who rode all the way from Connecticut to Salem, Oregon
> in a car, so she loves to hide/sleep in our car, and doesn't warn us that
> she's there when we take off, either.

Didn't have that problem with my previous cat. Only time he was in the car
was when it was a trip to the vet. He never liked that trip very much. The
car was equated with discomfort as far as he was concerned.

Sara
March 10th 07, 07:02 PM
"Billy U" > wrote in message
. 64...
>
>> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>>
>
>
> Emily:
>
> Way to go on the rational discourse. You make persuasive
> arguments, not
> the least of which that it is wise to offer social commentary
> on Americans
> and find a rather strained way to inject politics into a
> discussion about
> declawing cats.
>
>
>
What he said. I hope that lady has no kids if that's how she
acts when you say something she disagrees with.

For the record, we live with a 2 year old who had her front claws
removed when she was spayed when she was about 3 months old. she
was already running around the house the next day, and trying to
jump on and off furniture. Good thing the doc gave me sedatives
so she didn't tear out her surgical stitches or hurt her insides!

She certainly never seemed to be unduly uncomfortable from the
declawing. She's very sweet natured and loving. She still
"claws" my carpeting and dining room chairs. She doesn't get
yelled at for this behavior, she can 'scratch' anything in the
house to her heart's content.

I'm not all that materialistic (after having 4 kids, you learn
not to put a lot of importance on your furniture or carpeting!)
but cats can do a lot of damage with their front claws, and it's
hard enough to live from payday to payday nowaways without having
to repair or replace something your cat decided to get ****y and
destroy because you were a half hour late getting home. Yeah,
our sweetheart still does things to 'get our attention', but the
worst thing she does is knock things down.... so you just gotta
pay attention to what you keep where.

My biggest concern was all the toddlers and babies that come to
visit. A declawed cat can't scratch up a face quite as easily as
one with all their claws can. Our kitty will challenge you, and
she's very vocal. If I hear her give warning, I make sure the
child calms down and show them how to play with the kitty gently.
She'll haul off and bat one with her paw, but usually she just
gets out of reach. She has several high places where she can go
and watch, but not be molested :)

If the older kids get too rough with her, she'll innocently roll
over on her back, look cute, invite a tummy rub, then get em with
her back claws. She does understand that she can play rougher
with the bigger kids, and she's usually just very wary of the
little ones. But I've never seen her be cruel about any of it,
even the rabbit punches are done more in a playful mood than in a
threatening way. She does not bite seriously, but she likes to
chew on my hand... v...e...r...y gently :) she'll take a
little nibble, and look at my face... then she'll get a little
braver and nip a little more.... and all I have to do is say "ow"
and she backs away, looks at me with that cocked head look, and
comes back and gives me kisses.

Sorry, but these "it's torture, they are deformed and miserable
all their lives" arguments are just not the experiences I've seen
with any of the declawed cats I've been around. If I could let
her be an outside cat, she'd have all her claws. But we live in
the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
kicked by kids, prey for other animals, whatever. She's a happy,
bossy, well adjusted typical cat (cept she wants outside soooooo
bad, she was born outside and lived under a porch first 8 weeks
of her life, she'll always want to be outside. We are working on
leash training her -- she's finally got the idea it's the only
way she'll get out the door. she'll go get the leash, and allow
us to put it on her, and takes us out the door. Then she does
her thing, plays in the bush, rolls on the sidewalk, whatever,
but she refuses to be 'walked' so far :) we'll be working on
that slowly :))

Anyway, I can see the OP's viewpoint that declawing a cat might
be a better alternative than so many dying in shelters. Now that
all the kids are getting older, I doubt I'd declaw another cat,
just because I have to have a good reason to do it. But I do
think many of the people on this list have made up their minds
from reading other people's opinions and over reacting to the
'facts' of how horrible this surgery is. It just hasn't been my
experience that cats suffer any real long term negative effects
from having their front claws removed.

OK, Flame away :) I know most of you will blast me for sharing
my experiences. But, you know.... our kitty could have stayed
a street cat, living about 1/2 mile from a major highway (4 lanes
each way), winding up mean and afraid of people, always having to
struggle to find food, shelter, a place to keep warm....

or she could lose her front claws, and have it made, be a very
sweet loving kitty who brings joy to everyone who meets her, with
the bonus of a long healthy lifetime ahead of her with folks who
love her.

I dunno, sounds like a no brainer to me tho.

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 10:02 PM
William Graham wrote:

> "Upscale" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"James" > wrote in message
>>
>>>I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
>>>experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
>>>than declawing)?
>>
>>You're missing the point. To get to a relatively painless declawed state,
>>a
>>cat has to go through a prolonged, painful process and the end result is
>>essentially a form of disability. You're comparing it to being preferable
>>to
>>being an unwanted alley cat is equivalent to saying that you'd be willing
>>to
>>go through a year of torture so you can live the next 60 years in relative
>>comfort. It just doesn't work out that way. Anyone who has gone through
>>torture is emotionally scarred for life as would any feeling animal. To
>>say
>>at any point that it was worthwhile is completely ludicrous.
>>
>>
>
> Yes. Death is better. After all, we all will die eventually. Why put your
> cat through such torture? If you can't live with him, then let him go so he
> can find himself another home. And if you can't do that, then have him put
> to sleep. More and more, as I get older, I have come to realize that humans
> don't deserve animals.....They are far too good for miserable creatures like
> us.
>
>
Amen to that!

Stick Waver
March 10th 07, 10:05 PM
James wrote:

> On Mar 9, 8:31 pm, "ChildFree23" > wrote:
>
>>Jimbo, please pay attention:
>
>
>>I tell the cat first you have to learn some house manners, a component of
>>which is to NOT scratch the furniturre.
>>
>
> Easier said than done.

That's right, it's not easy. But it's not impossible either. And
definitely worth the effort to spare the cat multiple mutilations.


>>Having a licensed physician, or in come cases a "moyle" remove the foreskin
>>of the penis does not leave said male babies defenseless in the wild.
>>Removing a cat's claws does!
>>
>
> They are supposed to be indoor house cats who don't need defenses in
> the wild.

Never mind defense. Cats NEED their claws in order to scratch to
relieve tension. If they cannot do this, guess how they will relieve
tension? By biting your nuts off. Which you would deserve for
mutilating a pet you supposedly care about.

>
> I do see your point about escape. My pussy often like to follow me
> around and once sneaked into my car. Didn't see her till I've driven
> off.
>

Christina Websell
March 10th 07, 11:55 PM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 9, 7:56 pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>
>> That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping a cat inside
>> with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about keeping its nails
>> trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.
>>
> That's fine if possible.

Why is it not possible?

> If not, a mutilated cat in a loving home is
> better off than any unwanted intact cat.

Oh, really! How about if all the civilised countries in the world who do
not declaw cats - whoops, every country apart from the US, said stop this
disgusting practice what are you thinking of? What would you reply?

Tweed

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:29 AM
But we live in
> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
> kicked by kids,

and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why

.. She's a happy,

I think not, let me remove the last part of each of your fingers and
toes and see how happy you are

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:29 AM
On 10 Mar, 04:18, "Fred G. Mackey" > wrote:
> bookie wrote:
> > On 9 Mar, 22:58, "James" > wrote:
>
> > i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>
> > firstly, i do nto have loads of spare time to clip and 'care' for my
> > cats claws, but what i do do is provide them with scratching posts and
> > ample outside space in order for them to deal with their claws
> > themselves ie scratch things and remove old claw sheaths etc.
>
> scratching posts seem to work well for my cat - she takes cares of her
> own claws. I wouldn't even know how to clip them.
>
>
>
> > secondly, maybe if you anal americans unclenched your buttocks for a
> > once in your ****ed up lives and stopped obsessing about your precious
> > ****ing furniture and realised that an animal has certain instinctual
> > behaviours, such as scratching and marking in cats, that it must
> > carry out, then you would not get all uptight about your bloody
> > material possessions like your crappy cheap furniture and your ****ty
> > cardboard houses and not worry about a few scratches here and there.
>
> Wow - well, at least you "tried" to stay calm. I would take offense at
> your remark, but at least you had the good sense to only refer to the
> "anal americans" and not Americans in general.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong,
>
> Agreed - 'nuff said.
>
>
>
> > the reason there are so many cats and ogs in shelters and puttig
> > euthanised inyour ****e country
>
> **** off.
>
> You don't have to like our country, but I don't have to like your
> remarks about it either.
>
> <snip hate-filled, ignorant remarks about the US>
>
> Tell me this: Where the **** did you learn about our country? North Korea?
>
>
>
> > **** me some people are ****ing thick aren't they?
>
> You're living proof of that.
>
> > bookie
>
> > **** it, I'm opening that tin of biscuits, I'm angry now and only
> > chocolate can sort it out
>
> Your problem, not mine or my country's. What? Do you expect us to send
> you billions in foreign aid now? **** off.

er....you don't send us billions in foreign aid, the only thing you
send us is your **** tv programmes

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:34 AM
On 10 Mar, 02:47, "Sherry" > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 6:56?pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>
> People that are that concerned about their furniture
>
> > might also have the cat euthanized if it peed outside its litter box or if
> > it keeps them up at night or whatever.
>
> Absolutely true. And the ironic thing is, a botched declaw can cause
> the cat to live in pain the rest of its life--which in turns makes the
> poor thing neurotic and it *does* start peeing outside the box. It's
> also quite common for a declawed cat to become a biter.
>
> Sherry

exactly!!!!!

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:35 AM
On 10 Mar, 08:51, "James" > wrote:
> Question for those of you who are mad anti-declawing.
>
> I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
> experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
> than declawing)?

if it has been declawed then it has been mistreasted, plain and simple

jesus this guy is retarded!!!!

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:40 AM
On 10 Mar, 08:31, "James" > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 7:56 pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>
> > That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping a cat inside
> > with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about keeping its nails
> > trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.
>
> That's fine if possible. If not, a mutilated cat in a loving home is
> better off than any unwanted intact cat.

no it isn't
>
>
>
> > > Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but you'll let it
> > > get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate to no kill
> > > shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a lethal cocktail.
>
> > Huh?
>
> Unwanted cats killed because noone wants them. Some one might want
> one if declawed.
>
>
doesn't make it alright, doesn't justify such abuse in anyway.

> People by the thousands get limbs blown off by cheap mines but few of
> them would choose die because they lack a limb or two. I'm sure a cat
> would rather be declawed than be put to sleep.
>
no it wouldn't it is not capable of makign that choice and it is not
our place to make thse decisions either, cats do not understand death,
they do not think further than the next few moments, they do not have
that capacity

> Unless there are enough people willing to adopt all the unwanted cats,
> declawing is a much better option than death for the convenience of
> people.


how about this crazy idea; you people start neutering and spaying your
animals so that they do not breed out of control and so there are not
thousands of unwanted and abandoned cats and dogs roaming the streets
and ending up in shelters who cannot look after them and end up having
to euthanize them. Start being a bit bloody responsible when it comes
to your cats and not letting them produce hundreds of offspring which
you know noone will care for.

considered that one? no i didn't think so

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:45 AM
On 10 Mar, 15:25, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Upscale" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "James" > wrote in message
>
> >> I have seen a declawed cat in a good home. Do you have first hand
> >> experience where a declawed cat was mistreated in a good home (other
> >> than declawing)?
>
> > You're missing the point. To get to a relatively painless declawed state,
> > a
> > cat has to go through a prolonged, painful process and the end result is
> > essentially a form of disability. You're comparing it to being preferable
> > to
> > being an unwanted alley cat is equivalent to saying that you'd be willing
> > to
> > go through a year of torture so you can live the next 60 years in relative
> > comfort. It just doesn't work out that way. Anyone who has gone through
> > torture is emotionally scarred for life as would any feeling animal. To
> > say
> > at any point that it was worthwhile is completely ludicrous.
>
> Yes. Death is better. After all, we all will die eventually. Why put your
> cat through such torture? If you can't live with him, then let him go so he
> can find himself another home. And if you can't do that, then have him put
> to sleep. More and more, as I get older, I have come to realize that humans
> don't deserve animals.....They are far too good for miserable creatures like
> us.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i agree totally with you on all your points, although it sounds harsh
to say 'death is better than a life of pain and misery for the cat' i
have to agree with you there.

also agree that many humans do not deserve the loyal companion ship of
domestic animals, especially considerign the way we hav etampered with
the natural state of some of them (overbreeding in dogs and cats
leading to terrible malformations and inbred genetic problems) and the
way in which so many humans abuse and mistreat their pets and throw
their animals love and loyalty back intheir face, makes me ashamed to
be human sometimes.

sheelagh
March 11th 07, 12:48 AM
On 13 Feb, 01:48, "~*Connie*~" > wrote:
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
>
>
> > "Captain Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Tania, our 7 year old female is not spay, and she has never produced
> > any offspring. If by some accident on OUR PART, she were to have
> > kittens, we would take responsibility for them; either by finding
> > proper homes or by making them part of the family.
>
> > Bob
>
> well then, that is six other kittens that won't find those homes who will be
> killed, because you refused to spend 100$ and do the responsible thing.
>
> I pray your poor Tania doesn't get a pyometra, or cancer of the uterus, or
> of the mammary glands after so many heat cycles.. It is hard on her poor
> body. and for what?

Pyometra is a terrible thing to happen to a cat!!

*I used to breed Birman cats*, & had just decided to give up because
of ethical reasons & financial reasons too.
Having just had my stud cats neutered, I had both of my remaining
queens booked in to be spayed three days later. On the day we were due
to take both of them in, we got a call from the vet to say that she
had an emergency, & that she wouldn't be able to do them that
particular day, & asked us to reschedual.
tow days later, Lilly my seal point baby, was looking rather ropey,
but as it was none specific, I simply couldn't put my finger on what
it could be.. so I decided to play cautious & take her to the
emergency treatment clinic a few minutes later.

To cut a very sad long story short, Lilly was diagnosed with Pyometra
& given one shot of amoxiclav
I was asked to bring her back the following day, but again the
particular vet that I *was* using, pulled a sicky @ work & didn't'
bother coming into work until a day later.... by which time Lilly went
into septicemic shock, had pneumonia & had to be taken straight to
theater after bloods & xrays established that she did in fact have a
totally infected womb full of puss.
I had a call to ask if I would consent to surgery, to which I agreed
immediately of course!!
The vet didn't think that she would actually live through- but she
did, bless her.

That evening I went down to see my baby, & I. was horrified when I saw
her..
It didn't occur to me to take a camera with me when I went to visit
her, but I happened to have my mobile phone on me, so I took a photo
of her, because I didn't think that she was going to make it through
the night.
I am going to share a few photos of her whilst she went through this
horrific condition.

The purpose of sharing these photos with you, is to help you to
understand what you risk putting your beloved cat through by not
having her spayed when you have the chance to right NOW, before it
happens to you too.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/sheelaghmadden/LillyAFewWeeksAfterErOperation

ACT NOW WHILST YOU CAN..!!
Needless to say that I changed my vet immediately after this
incident.....

I would hate anyone to go through the worry & sorrow that we did when
this happend to her.
Pyometra is not just a word that happens to other people;it can happen
to your cat too..
I also hope that you can see the difference in Lilly a few short weeks
later when she got over her surgery.
It ended up costing me around 404 ($808).
Do you really have that kind of cash to shell out, when you can have
her spayed for a simple fraction of the cost..??
I hope that you do find it within your heart to do the right thing by
her, because she depends on you to make the right decision for her.
S.

Charlie Wilkes
March 11th 07, 01:59 AM
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:29:06 -0800, bookie wrote:

> But we live in
>> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car, kicked
>> by kids,
>
> and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
> them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go outside
> they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach our
> children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>
> . She's a happy,
>
> I think not, let me remove the last part of each of your fingers and
> toes and see how happy you are

I think female hormonal influences have eclipsed your reasoning ability
for the past couple of days, Bookie. I wish you would try to take a more
objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
different?

Charlie

MaryL
March 11th 07, 02:11 AM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
> the excess cats?
>
> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>
>

Wrong! Declawed cats are frequently put outdoors. Many of them develop
"unpleasant" behavior such as inappropriation urination or biting, and
frequently they are either put outdoors or dumped at an animal shelter. I
adopted a cat many years ago that had been declawed on *all four* paws. She
was a dear, sweet, angel of a cat but her first "owners" were planning to
put her outdoor if they couldn't find someone to adopt her because they were
expecting another baby and "didn't have room" to keep their cat indoors!

MaryL

William Graham
March 11th 07, 02:20 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> But we live in
>> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
>> kicked by kids,
>
> and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
> them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
> outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
> our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>

That'll work......Until they are starving to death........

sheelagh
March 11th 07, 03:11 AM
>
> I think female hormonal influences have eclipsed your reasoning ability
> for the past couple of days, Bookie. I wish you would try to take a more
> objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
> etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
> and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
> different?
>
> Charlie

I think that it has more to do with the fact that declawing in the UK
is rather like cannibalism in the USA, or at least on a similar Parr.

Mind you, after my recent outbursts, maybe you could have a point
here...?
( I think I am referring more to myself than Bookie in this instance
though..!!)

It is just such a taboo subject over here that I think it is bound to
insight raw rage in anyone who actually cares about cats.
Each of these things have their own relevance though.

As you say, there are people who live happy lives without digits, but
given the choice, I am sure that they would prefer to have them
intact, don't you?

I am not saying that everyone should see it from our point of view,
rather that each is entitled to their own beliefs...

I think that Bookie's point is that it is a needless practise, & that
the very thought of amputating a cats digits/claws/fingers off to save
the couch, doesn't seem a reasonable argument to have the procedure
done.

When a human amputee has this procedure performed , it is because
there is no other option, where as with a cat, there is no reason,
other than to save the couch.
This I believe is what makes her so angry... Right bookie?
S;o)

Charlie Wilkes
March 11th 07, 03:35 AM
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:11:32 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
>
> When a human amputee has this procedure performed , it is because there
> is no other option, where as with a cat, there is no reason, other than
> to save the couch.
> This I believe is what makes her so angry... Right bookie? S;o)

Bookie seems to be looking for targets on which she can vent her fury, so
I thought I would provide one.

Unlike most of the people in this group, I don't have strong feelings
about the subject of de-clawing. I generally accept the arguments that
it is a bad practice, and I would not be responsible for de-clawing a cat
myself. But, I have known cats who were de-clawed and seemed quite
content in spite of it. I suppose I view people who de-claw their cats
the same way I do those who use chemical pesticides in their garden... I
don't really approve of the practice, I think it's gauche and vulgar, but
I don't get angry about it.

Charlie

Sara
March 11th 07, 03:49 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 10 Mar, 08:31, "James" > wrote:
>> On Mar 9, 7:56 pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>>
>> > That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping
>> > a cat inside
>> > with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about
>> > keeping its nails
>> > trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.
>>
>> That's fine if possible. If not, a mutilated cat in a loving
>> home is
>> better off than any unwanted intact cat.
>
> no it isn't
>>
>>
>>
>> > > Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but
>> > > you'll let it
>> > > get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate
>> > > to no kill
>> > > shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a
>> > > lethal cocktail.
>>
>> > Huh?
>>
>> Unwanted cats killed because noone wants them. Some one might
>> want
>> one if declawed.
>>
>>
> doesn't make it alright, doesn't justify such abuse in anyway.
>
>> People by the thousands get limbs blown off by cheap mines but
>> few of
>> them would choose die because they lack a limb or two. I'm
>> sure a cat
>> would rather be declawed than be put to sleep.
>>
> no it wouldn't it is not capable of makign that choice and it
> is not
> our place to make thse decisions either, cats do not understand
> death,
> they do not think further than the next few moments, they do
> not have
> that capacity
>
>> Unless there are enough people willing to adopt all the
>> unwanted cats,
>> declawing is a much better option than death for the
>> convenience of
>> people.
>
>
> how about this crazy idea; you people start neutering and
> spaying your
> animals so that they do not breed out of control and so there
> are not
> thousands of unwanted and abandoned cats and dogs roaming the
> streets
> and ending up in shelters who cannot look after them and end up
> having
> to euthanize them. Start being a bit bloody responsible when it
> comes
> to your cats and not letting them produce hundreds of offspring
> which
> you know noone will care for.
>
> considered that one? no i didn't think so
>

Every animal who ever lived with us has been neutered or spayed.
They've gone to the vet regularly, just the same as our kids went
to see the pediatrician regularly. Our animals cost us a lot
more for medical care than our kids did

People can be responsible, loving companions for animals and
provide them with a healthy and happy life without doing
everything the way YOU decree it need be done.

And it's pretty hard to believe that 'you people' don't have any
abandoned or wild cats roaming anywhere in your country. you've
totally brainwashed everyone in your country and no one neglects
their animals or lets them outside before they get them desexed.

and for what it's worth, I can't see how taking away a cat's
ability to reproduce makes them any happier than removing their
claws. It's still painful surgery. It interferes with their
biological needs and instincts, it totally changes them into an
'it'. You think that's not stressful?

wot a loon.

sheelagh
March 11th 07, 03:54 AM
>
> Bookie seems to be looking for targets on which she can vent her fury, so
> I thought I would provide one.
>
> Unlike most of the people in this group, I don't have strong feelings
> about the subject of de-clawing. I generally accept the arguments that
> it is a bad practice, and I would not be responsible for de-clawing a cat
> myself. But, I have known cats who were de-clawed and seemed quite
> content in spite of it. I suppose I view people who de-claw their cats
> the same way I do those who use chemical pesticides in their garden... I
> don't really approve of the practice, I think it's gauche and vulgar, but
> I don't get angry about it.
>
> Charlie

All people get incensed by different things I suppose.
This just happens to be one of Bookie's hot spots.

I find it dreadful, hideous , ghastly & horrific, but if someone is
going to do it, nothing will change their mind about it.
I could rant for hours about it, but I don't see that it would change
the persons mind about having it done.

I believe the trick to get someone to agree with you, is by debate ,
informed argument (not heated anger), & persuasion...
If you can appeal to their better nature & inner conscience, then you
might get some where.
< pot, kettle black, hmmm? >
Amazing what a few hours away from it all can do for the soul, hey
charlie?
S;o)

Sara
March 11th 07, 04:00 AM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "James" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You
>> might think
>> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do
>> with all
>> the excess cats?
>>
>> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>>
>>
>
> Wrong! Declawed cats are frequently put outdoors. Many of
> them develop "unpleasant" behavior such as inappropriation
> urination or biting, and frequently they are either put
> outdoors or dumped at an animal shelter. I adopted a cat many
> years ago that had been declawed on *all four* paws. She was a
> dear, sweet, angel of a cat but her first "owners" were
> planning to put her outdoor if they couldn't find someone to
> adopt her because they were expecting another baby and "didn't
> have room" to keep their cat indoors!
>
> MaryL
>
>

and many cats who have all their claws develop unpleasant
behavior too, such as inappropriate urination or biting. In
fact, we had a tortie who'd go pee on my daughter's belongings
out of spite whenever she got angry with her. It started out
with clothes left on the floor. OK, easy fix, put your clothes
in the hamper. Then she decided the rug in the bedroom was a
good place to pee. When the boyfriend moved in, she started
urinating on his side of the bed. we had her checked out, it was
not a physical problem, she was just being a bitch. And she was
getting worse. I got so tired of trying to wash cat urine out of
the laundry, scrub it out of the rug. Getting it out of a
mattress is REALLY a challenge.

Finally had to euthanize her, and it was NOT an easy decision to
make. We had her for 14 years, and she was very special to all of
us. But the vet even agreed with me that it definitely was a
behavioral problem and she didn't think we were going to be able
to correct it. (it went on for several years, just kept
escalating til we just couldn't take it any more.)

MaryL
March 11th 07, 04:16 AM
"Sara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "James" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
>>> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
>>> the excess cats?
>>>
>>> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Wrong! Declawed cats are frequently put outdoors. Many of them develop
>> "unpleasant" behavior such as inappropriation urination or biting, and
>> frequently they are either put outdoors or dumped at an animal shelter.
>> I adopted a cat many years ago that had been declawed on *all four* paws.
>> She was a dear, sweet, angel of a cat but her first "owners" were
>> planning to put her outdoor if they couldn't find someone to adopt her
>> because they were expecting another baby and "didn't have room" to keep
>> their cat indoors!
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>>
>
> and many cats who have all their claws develop unpleasant behavior too,
> such as inappropriate urination or biting. In fact, we had a tortie
> who'd go pee on my daughter's belongings out of spite whenever she got
> angry with her. It started out with clothes left on the floor. OK, easy
> fix, put your clothes in the hamper. Then she decided the rug in the
> bedroom was a good place to pee. When the boyfriend moved in, she started
> urinating on his side of the bed. we had her checked out, it was not a
> physical problem, she was just being a bitch. And she was getting worse.
> I got so tired of trying to wash cat urine out of the laundry, scrub it
> out of the rug. Getting it out of a mattress is REALLY a challenge.
>
> Finally had to euthanize her, and it was NOT an easy decision to make. We
> had her for 14 years, and she was very special to all of us. But the vet
> even agreed with me that it definitely was a behavioral problem and she
> didn't think we were going to be able to correct it. (it went on for
> several years, just kept escalating til we just couldn't take it any
> more.)
>

The point is, declawed cats have a *much higher* proportion of these
problems than do clawed cats. Some declawed cats do not develop any
behavioral problems (although we are still left with the distinctly immoral
issue of people causing amputation merely for their own convenience), and
some clawed cats do develop behavioral problems. But the percentages are
drastically different -- approximately 1/3 of declawed cats develop problems
such as inappropriate urination, biting, and early onset of arthritis.

If you ever know of anyone who has a cat with similar behavioral problems in
the future, please suggest that they check with Tufts University PetFax.
They have had excellent results dealing with cats with behavioral problems.

MaryL

Charlie Wilkes
March 11th 07, 04:39 AM
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:54:03 -0800, sheelagh wrote:


>> Bookie seems to be looking for targets on which she can vent her fury,
>> so I thought I would provide one.
>>
>> Unlike most of the people in this group, I don't have strong feelings
>> about the subject of de-clawing. I generally accept the arguments that
>> it is a bad practice, and I would not be responsible for de-clawing a
>> cat myself. But, I have known cats who were de-clawed and seemed quite
>> content in spite of it. I suppose I view people who de-claw their cats
>> the same way I do those who use chemical pesticides in their garden...
>> I don't really approve of the practice, I think it's gauche and vulgar,
>> but I don't get angry about it.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> All people get incensed by different things I suppose. This just happens
> to be one of Bookie's hot spots.

Sure. Bookie is a lot of fun to read because she is so explosive.
>
> I find it dreadful, hideous , ghastly & horrific, but if someone is
> going to do it, nothing will change their mind about it. I could rant
> for hours about it, but I don't see that it would change the persons
> mind about having it done.
>
> I believe the trick to get someone to agree with you, is by debate ,
> informed argument (not heated anger), & persuasion... If you can appeal
> to their better nature & inner conscience, then you might get some
> where.

It's an uphill battle no matter how one handles it. In all my time on
Usenet, I don't think I have ever once persuaded anyone to change their
mind about anything. But I have had quite a few people resort to evasive
tactics, changing the subject etc., which is tantamount to admitting they
can't match my arguments.

Charlie

22brix
March 11th 07, 05:45 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On 9 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0800, "bookie" > wrote:
>
>>thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
>>are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
>>knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
>>removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
>>end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
>>junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
>>to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
>>the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
>>it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
>>think you would.
>
> Do you feel the same way about "female circumcision"? Hey, it's "just the
> removal of a piece of skin"! Male circumcision is a barbaric and
> unnecessary ritual mutilation practice that should be abolished, same as
> declawing.
> --
>
> Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl

A number of years ago I was present during the circumcision of a newborn.
He was strapped onto a form fitting "board", given no anesthetic, not even a
local, on the theory that newborns don't process pain the same way adults do
and wouldn't remember it. All I know is that poor child was screaming so
hard he could hardly draw breath. He certainly was feeling something. I
don't know if practices are any different now but what I saw appalled me.

22brix
March 11th 07, 05:52 AM
"Sara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "James" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You might think
>>> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do with all
>>> the excess cats?
>>>
>>> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Wrong! Declawed cats are frequently put outdoors. Many of them develop
>> "unpleasant" behavior such as inappropriation urination or biting, and
>> frequently they are either put outdoors or dumped at an animal shelter.
>> I adopted a cat many years ago that had been declawed on *all four* paws.
>> She was a dear, sweet, angel of a cat but her first "owners" were
>> planning to put her outdoor if they couldn't find someone to adopt her
>> because they were expecting another baby and "didn't have room" to keep
>> their cat indoors!
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>>
>
> and many cats who have all their claws develop unpleasant behavior too,
> such as inappropriate urination or biting. In fact, we had a tortie
> who'd go pee on my daughter's belongings out of spite whenever she got
> angry with her. It started out with clothes left on the floor. OK, easy
> fix, put your clothes in the hamper. Then she decided the rug in the
> bedroom was a good place to pee. When the boyfriend moved in, she started
> urinating on his side of the bed. we had her checked out, it was not a
> physical problem, she was just being a bitch. And she was getting worse.
> I got so tired of trying to wash cat urine out of the laundry, scrub it
> out of the rug. Getting it out of a mattress is REALLY a challenge.
>
> Finally had to euthanize her, and it was NOT an easy decision to make. We
> had her for 14 years, and she was very special to all of us. But the vet
> even agreed with me that it definitely was a behavioral problem and she
> didn't think we were going to be able to correct it. (it went on for
> several years, just kept escalating til we just couldn't take it any
> more.)
>

I'm very sorry you felt you had no other options. There are various drugs
that can help with inappropriate urination. Even "behavioral" problems can
often be successfully treated. I've had many cats and have had more than one
that had problems peeing inappropriately--I really never thought of
euthanasia as an option. It takes patience and some sleuthing to figure out
what the triggers are but it certainly can be treated.

Bonnie

IBen Getiner
March 11th 07, 10:27 AM
On Feb 11, 1:36�pm, "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER>
wrote:
> This is disgusting! *I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. *Read what the Houston Humane
> Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a *reduced
> rate for front paw declawing*):
>
> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. *There will
> be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. *We will be declawing
> only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60 (front paws
> only)."
>
> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
> mutilating his front feet.
>
> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. *You can
> see the flyer advertising this "special"
> here: *http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
> pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
> And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:
>
>
> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
> with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
> society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.
>
> --
> MaryL

Hahh...!! I told you that you people were nuts. These folks... they
know that there's nothing wrong with this procedure. And they
recognize you who are against it for what you really are... Left-wing
extremists KOOKS.




IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner
March 11th 07, 10:38 AM
On Feb 12, 12:34�am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>
> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
> >>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
> >>> with
> >>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> >> Hmmm. *It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> >> substantial form of mutilation. *It's done to make the animal into a more
> >> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> > Don't try logic, it won't work.
>
> > I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> > (Before the cat gets to it.)
>
> Anyone who can afford a $15,000 couch can afford to get it recovered every
> few years....

My couch didn't cost 15,000 but it cost a lot for me. Why should I
accept it's destruction just to be PC and stylish? Especially when I
don't have to...?

> .My four cats all attack our two couches from time to time, and
> the wear and tear over the course of the last 8 years or so is too minimal
> to worry about.

Yeah... I've set foot into homes like yours before. Everything is
shredded and the air smells of an unchanged litter box.

> If you are going to keep a pet, then you should learn to
> live with its character and peculiarities.....

Bull****. If the pet in question wants to live a plush life of luxury
instead of eating out of a garbage can, it is HE who will learn to
live by MY peculiarities (i.e. RULES). And one of those peculiarities
says.. 'Thou shalt not arbitrarily destroy the possessions of the one
who feeds you'.
Cats who live indoors don't need claws anymore. Plain and simple. You
get their balls whacked off and you don't think anthing of it, now
don't you...? Stupid freakin' jerk.

> If you want a fawning,
> whining, creature that treats you like the God of the universe, then you
> should get a dog.....:^)- Hide quoted text -
>

Why, when I can get the same thing out of my cat ? And I have :)


IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner
March 11th 07, 10:43 AM
On Feb 11, 2:20�pm, "Cat Protector" > wrote:
> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting. The
> Arizona Humane Society from what I've recalled has commented that they don't
> promote nor support declawing. Usually they try to educate people on what is
> involved with declawing.
>
> Yesterday, I was at one of the Petsmarts and a guy came in and asked Paw
> Placement about adopting a cat. When the question came up on how the guy
> feels about declawing, the guy said he supports it and that when adopting he
> will declaw the cat in order to protect is $15,000 couch. Anyone more
> worried about their couch or other object than the safety and well being of
> the animal shouldn't be allowed to adopt a cat. He walked away and most
> likely is going to try and find a group that will allow him mutilate the
> cat. Paw Placement has an anti-declaw policy in the adoption contract and if
> someone declaws a cat from their organization, they have the right to seize
> the cat.
>
> --
> Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time!www.catgalaxymedia.com
>
> Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs!www.panthertekit.com"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> This is disgusting! *I wrote a few days ago to defend some of the HSUS
> >> practices, but this is absolutely revolting. *Read what the Houston
> >> Humane Society (note: Houston, not the national HSUS) is advertising as a
> >> "Valentine's Day special" for cats (free neutering accompanied by a
> >> *reduced rate for front paw declawing*):
>
> >> "We will be neutering 300 male cats only (NO FEMALES) that day. *There
> >> will be no general public surgery-other than the male cats. *We will be
> >> declawing only a small amount of male cats for the normal price of $60
> >> (front paws only)."
>
> >> The flyer also says, "Show your cat you love him on Valentine's Day by
> >> helping him live a longer, healthier life."
> >> In other words, they are really saying: show your cat you love him by
> >> mutilating his front feet.
>
> >> I am going to contact them and let them know exactly what I think. *You
> >> can see the flyer advertising this "special"
> >> here: *http://www.houstonhumane.org/spay.aspx
> >> Here is the number they listed to schedule appointment and receive
> >> pre-operative instructions: 713-433-6421
> >> And here is the email address they listed for support and donations:
> >>
>
> >> I don't normally cross-post, but I am including several cats' newsgroups
> >> with this message because I think it is such an abomination for a "humane
> >> society" to perform declawing, and I hope some of you will write or call.
>
> >> --
> >> MaryL
>
> > Once again, I let my fingers move faster than my brain. *The Houston
> > Humane Society is not advertising *a "special rate" on declawing.

> *The
> > special is for free neutering, but declawing can also be done at the
> > "regular rate" of $60.00. *If anything, though, that makes it *even worse*
> > to think that the Humane Society would think of declawing as a "normal"
> > thing to do and would even sponsor it. *I think I am going to be sick!!
>
> > --
> > MaryL- Hide quoted text -
>

Your logic is flawed and reflects your particular brand of emotional
illness. You're an EXTREMIST. Your political viewpoints on this issue
have rendered your view of what's good and what's bad untrustworthy.
In short, you're WARPED.

IBen Getiner
March 11th 07, 10:48 AM
On Feb 11, 5:05�pm, Dan Espen >
wrote:
> Charlie Wilkes > writes:
> > On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
> >> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
> >> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> > Hmmm. *It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> > substantial form of mutilation. *It's done to make the animal into a more
> > satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> Don't try logic, it won't work.
>

Yes it will. It's worse, in fact. Because you don't have a good reason
to neuter or spay an inside cat. It's all for YOUR convenience and
benefit. Just like with everything else that you probably do.

> I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> (Before the cat gets to it.)

Put a lid on it, azzhole. You're just another over-emotional nut-
case.


IBen Getiner

IBen Getiner
March 11th 07, 10:58 AM
On Feb 12, 12:34�am, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "Dan Espen" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>
> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>
> >>> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in
> >>> with
> >>> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>
> >> Hmmm. *It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
> >> substantial form of mutilation. *It's done to make the animal into a more
> >> satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>
> > Don't try logic, it won't work.
>
> > I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
> > (Before the cat gets to it.)
>
> Anyone who can afford a $15,000 couch can afford to get it recovered every
> few years.....


Bull****. My couch didn't cost 15,000 but it cost a lot for me. Why
should I accept it's destruction just to be PC and stylish? Especially
when I don't have to...?

> .My four cats all attack our two couches from time to time, and
> the wear and tear over the course of the last 8 years or so is too minimal
> to worry about.

Yeah... I've set foot into homes like yours before. Everything is
shredded and the air smells of an unchanged litter box.

> If you are going to keep a pet, then you should learn to
> live with its character and peculiarities.....

Bull****. If the pet in question wants to live in plush life of luxury
instead of eating out of a garbage can, it iz HE who learn to live by
MY peculiarities (i.e. RULES). And one of those peculiarities says..
'Thou shalt not arbitrarily destroy the possessions of the one who
feeds you'.
Cats who live indoors don't need claws anymore. Plain and simple. You
get their balls whacked off and you don't think anything of THAT, now
do you...? Stupid freakin' jerk.

> If you want a fawning,
> whining, creature that treats you like the God of the universe, then you
> should get a dog.....:^)- Hide quoted text -
>

Why, when I can get the same thing out of my cat. And I have :)


IBen Getiner

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:25 PM
On 11 Mar, 01:59, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:29:06 -0800, bookie wrote:
> > But we live in
> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car, kicked
> >> by kids,
>
> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go outside
> > they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach our
> > children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>
> > . She's a happy,
>
> > I think not, let me remove the last part of each of your fingers and
> > toes and see how happy you are
>
> I think female hormonal influences have eclipsed your reasoning ability
> for the past couple of days, Bookie. I wish you would try to take a more
> objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
> etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
> and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
> different?
>
> Charlie

actually i knwo someone who lost several toes to frostbite and he fond
walking very painful for many months afterwards despite wearing a pair
of makeshift cutaway dunlop greenflash trainers to reduce pressure
onthe affected parts and beign on painkillers constantly. he also
acknoqwledges that noone made him go up that mountain, not change his
wet socks for days so they froze to his skin and he ended up havign to
have socks and toes surgically removed when he came back down,
therefore he HAS to live with it happily cos he did it to himself and
he think it was worth it for the ivews at the top (he always was a
strange chap though, astrophysicist).

if someone had doen it to him and removed perfectly healthy toes
against his will for no good reason and left him in similar agony for
a long time afterwards i think he may have a very different view onthe
matter and be less accepting of it.

anyway, I have always thought men to be an inferior section of
society, what's changed?

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:29 PM
On 11 Mar, 03:11, "sheelagh" > wrote:
> > I think female hormonal influences have eclipsed your reasoning ability
> > for the past couple of days, Bookie. I wish you would try to take a more
> > objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
> > etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
> > and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
> > different?
>
> > Charlie
>
> I think that it has more to do with the fact that declawing in the UK
> is rather like cannibalism in the USA, or at least on a similar Parr.
>
> Mind you, after my recent outbursts, maybe you could have a point
> here...?
> ( I think I am referring more to myself than Bookie in this instance
> though..!!)
>
> It is just such a taboo subject over here that I think it is bound to
> insight raw rage in anyone who actually cares about cats.
> Each of these things have their own relevance though.
>
> As you say, there are people who live happy lives without digits, but
> given the choice, I am sure that they would prefer to have them
> intact, don't you?
>
> I am not saying that everyone should see it from our point of view,
> rather that each is entitled to their own beliefs...
>
> I think that Bookie's point is that it is a needless practise, & that
> the very thought of amputating a cats digits/claws/fingers off to save
> the couch, doesn't seem a reasonable argument to have the procedure
> done.
>
> When a human amputee has this procedure performed , it is because
> there is no other option, where as with a cat, there is no reason,
> other than to save the couch.
> This I believe is what makes her so angry... Right bookie?
> S;o)

yes, also the fact that i can't bvelieve that anyone can possibly find
ANY reasons to support this awful practice, and to cite saving some
crappy bit of cheapo furnitiure or other inanimate object as a reason
is pathetic.

it just makes me see red

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:34 PM
On 11 Mar, 04:39, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:54:03 -0800, sheelagh wrote:
> >> Bookie seems to be looking for targets on which she can vent her fury,
> >> so I thought I would provide one.
>
> >> Unlike most of the people in this group, I don't have strong feelings
> >> about the subject of de-clawing. I generally accept the arguments that
> >> it is a bad practice, and I would not be responsible for de-clawing a
> >> cat myself. But, I have known cats who were de-clawed and seemed quite
> >> content in spite of it. I suppose I view people who de-claw their cats
> >> the same way I do those who use chemical pesticides in their garden...
> >> I don't really approve of the practice, I think it's gauche and vulgar,
> >> but I don't get angry about it.
>
> >> Charlie
>
> > All people get incensed by different things I suppose. This just happens
> > to be one of Bookie's hot spots.
>
> Sure. Bookie is a lot of fun to read because she is so explosive.
>
>
>
> > I find it dreadful, hideous , ghastly & horrific, but if someone is
> > going to do it, nothing will change their mind about it. I could rant
> > for hours about it, but I don't see that it would change the persons
> > mind about having it done.
>
> > I believe the trick to get someone to agree with you, is by debate ,
> > informed argument (not heated anger), & persuasion... If you can appeal
> > to their better nature & inner conscience, then you might get some
> > where.
>
> It's an uphill battle no matter how one handles it. In all my time on
> Usenet, I don't think I have ever once persuaded anyone to change their
> mind about anything. But I have had quite a few people resort to evasive
> tactics, changing the subject etc., which is tantamount to admitting they
> can't match my arguments.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I knwo i am not going to change anyone's mind with my outbursts, if
someone has made up their mind to mutilate an animals then i am sure
nothing will stop them, I am sure other people can be sjust as
stubborn as i am.
it just makes me so angry that after reading people's reasoned
arguments against declawing that some individuals still see fit to
support against all the logical arguments against, hence i get VERY
angry. I just can't tolerate stupidity and ignorance very well, and
for me someone showing support for declawing is the absolute height of
that.

bookie
ps i have absolutely no views whatsoever on using chemical pesticides
n my garden, i ahve a garden but i don't do anything to it apart from
mow the lawn and a bit of weeding, in fact i dontl even do that but
leave it to my housemate. probably quiet lame not to have a view on it
but it is not something i think much about right now

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:36 PM
On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> > But we live in
> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
> >> kicked by kids,
>
> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>
> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........

eh?

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:39 PM
On 11 Mar, 03:49, "Sara" > wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10 Mar, 08:31, "James" > wrote:
> >> On Mar 9, 7:56 pm, "22brix" > wrote:
>
> >> > That's like comparing apples and oranges. How about keeping
> >> > a cat inside
> >> > with all claws intact, thank you very much. How about
> >> > keeping its nails
> >> > trimmed. How about training it to use a scratching post.
>
> >> That's fine if possible. If not, a mutilated cat in a loving
> >> home is
> >> better off than any unwanted intact cat.
>
> > no it isn't
>
> >> > > Do you tell the cat you won't let it get declawed but
> >> > > you'll let it
> >> > > get put to sleep? You know no matter how much you donate
> >> > > to no kill
> >> > > shelters thousands of cat regularly get jabbed with a
> >> > > lethal cocktail.
>
> >> > Huh?
>
> >> Unwanted cats killed because noone wants them. Some one might
> >> want
> >> one if declawed.
>
> > doesn't make it alright, doesn't justify such abuse in anyway.
>
> >> People by the thousands get limbs blown off by cheap mines but
> >> few of
> >> them would choose die because they lack a limb or two. I'm
> >> sure a cat
> >> would rather be declawed than be put to sleep.
>
> > no it wouldn't it is not capable of makign that choice and it
> > is not
> > our place to make thse decisions either, cats do not understand
> > death,
> > they do not think further than the next few moments, they do
> > not have
> > that capacity
>
> >> Unless there are enough people willing to adopt all the
> >> unwanted cats,
> >> declawing is a much better option than death for the
> >> convenience of
> >> people.
>
> > how about this crazy idea; you people start neutering and
> > spaying your
> > animals so that they do not breed out of control and so there
> > are not
> > thousands of unwanted and abandoned cats and dogs roaming the
> > streets
> > and ending up in shelters who cannot look after them and end up
> > having
> > to euthanize them. Start being a bit bloody responsible when it
> > comes
> > to your cats and not letting them produce hundreds of offspring
> > which
> > you know noone will care for.
>
> > considered that one? no i didn't think so
>
> Every animal who ever lived with us has been neutered or spayed.
> They've gone to the vet regularly, just the same as our kids went
> to see the pediatrician regularly. Our animals cost us a lot
> more for medical care than our kids did
>
> People can be responsible, loving companions for animals and
> provide them with a healthy and happy life without doing
> everything the way YOU decree it need be done.
>
> And it's pretty hard to believe that 'you people' don't have any
> abandoned or wild cats roaming anywhere in your country. you've
> totally brainwashed everyone in your country and no one neglects
> their animals or lets them outside before they get them desexed.
>
> and for what it's worth, I can't see how taking away a cat's
> ability to reproduce makes them any happier than removing their
> claws. It's still painful surgery. It interferes with their
> biological needs and instincts, it totally changes them into an
> 'it'. You think that's not stressful?
>
> wot a loon.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

if you want to reduce the number of unwanted animals /pets in shleters
then it is necessary, then peole in 'your' country woud not feel the
need to remove claws inorder to give them homes cos there woudl not be
such a surplus

dumbass

bookie
March 11th 07, 12:45 PM
On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "James" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> Not everone has the time to care for cats with claws. You
> >> might think
> >> people should have declawed cat but what are you going to do
> >> with all
> >> the excess cats?
>
> >> You know it's not going to be let running loose outdoors.
>
> > Wrong! Declawed cats are frequently put outdoors. Many of
> > them develop "unpleasant" behavior such as inappropriation
> > urination or biting, and frequently they are either put
> > outdoors or dumped at an animal shelter. I adopted a cat many
> > years ago that had been declawed on *all four* paws. She was a
> > dear, sweet, angel of a cat but her first "owners" were
> > planning to put her outdoor if they couldn't find someone to
> > adopt her because they were expecting another baby and "didn't
> > have room" to keep their cat indoors!
>
> > MaryL
>
> and many cats who have all their claws develop unpleasant
> behavior too, such as inappropriate urination or biting. In
> fact, we had a tortie who'd go pee on my daughter's belongings
> out of spite whenever she got angry with her. It started out
> with clothes left on the floor. OK, easy fix, put your clothes
> in the hamper. Then she decided the rug in the bedroom was a
> good place to pee. When the boyfriend moved in, she started
> urinating on his side of the bed. we had her checked out, it was
> not a physical problem, she was just being a bitch.

oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are not
capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that klind of
human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or scared or
upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties are
notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both are
really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all. A cat
cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal way,
it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the onl;y
way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or other
behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory, especially when
nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes. did you not think
of that?

please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat detective, cat
confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this stuff
very clearly

MaryL
March 11th 07, 12:56 PM
"Sara" > wrote in message
...
>
> and for what it's worth, I can't see how taking away a cat's ability to
> reproduce makes them any happier than removing their claws. It's still
> painful surgery. It interferes with their biological needs and instincts,
> it totally changes them into an 'it'. You think that's not stressful?
>
> wot a loon.
>

Makes them an "it"??? And is that also how you feel about women who have
had a hysterectomy?

MaryL

Dan Espen
March 11th 07, 01:47 PM
"IBen Getiner" > writes:

> On Feb 11, 5:05�pm, Dan Espen >
> wrote:
>> Charlie Wilkes > writes:
>> > On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:20:43 -0700, Cat Protector wrote:
>>
>> >> Yes, it was noted that their is a free neuter day but to bunch that in with
>> >> declawing a cat as a way to promote their health is pretty disgusting.
>>
>> > Hmmm. *It seems to me that cutting off a cat's nuts is a pretty
>> > substantial form of mutilation. *It's done to make the animal into a more
>> > satisfactory domestic pet, right?
>>
>> Don't try logic, it won't work.
>>
>
> Yes it will. It's worse, in fact. Because you don't have a good reason
> to neuter or spay an inside cat. It's all for YOUR convenience and
> benefit. Just like with everything else that you probably do.
>
>> I'd like to see a picture of the 15K couch.
>> (Before the cat gets to it.)
>
> Put a lid on it, azzhole. You're just another over-emotional nut-
> case.

Hi IBen.

Speaking of over-emotional, I think you've mis-understood my comments.

Either that or there is more than 1 IBen posting here.

Anyway, I'm honored. No one has EVER accused me of being
over-emotional. Spok-like, but never over-emotional.

MaryL
March 11th 07, 02:32 PM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
...
> objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
> etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
> and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
> different?
>
> Charlie

But how many people do you think would *voluntarily* (that is, without a
medical reason) have their toes and/or fingers amputated? And of those who
lost their toes or fingers due to frostbite, how many do think would say
they "didn't miss them" or that it "didn't affect" them in any way? Many
people can lead happy, productive lives after catastrophic accidents, too --
but that doesn't mean that I would deliberately subject anyone to such an
event, just as I would not subject my cats to amputation.

MaryL

William Graham
March 11th 07, 05:05 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> > But we live in
>> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
>> >> kicked by kids,
>>
>> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
>> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
>> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
>> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>>
>> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........
>
> eh?
>
In countries where the people are starving, the first thing to go are the
pets........

William Graham
March 11th 07, 05:51 PM
"William Graham" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bookie" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
>>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> > But we live in
>>> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
>>> >> kicked by kids,
>>>
>>> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
>>> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
>>> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
>>> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>>>
>>> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........
>>
>> eh?
>>
> In countries where the people are starving, the first thing to go are the
> pets........
>
Watching the Houston and New York SPCA 's work on "Animal Planet" gives
people a biased picture of the way pets are treated here in the US. In fact,
we are a nation of fat, well fed people, who are animal lovers....the cases
you see on the Telly are those few shockers that are worthy of making it to
a television production, and do not tell the story of the millions and
millions of happy, satisfied pets that exist all across this country. On my
block alone, there are about 20 cats and 15 or so dogs who are very well fed
and taken care of by all us owners....And the rest of my town is full of
blocks just like mine. But none of these stories are newsworthy, and none of
them are going to make it to an "Animal Planet" TV production.....the only
ones that will, are the sordid stories of severe mistreatment that you will
be able to watch every night.......

Sara
March 11th 07, 07:27 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
>> message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [snipped]

> oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are
> not
> capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that
> klind of
> human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or
> scared or
> upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties
> are
> notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both
> are
> really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all.
> A cat
> cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal
> way,
> it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the
> onl;y
> way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or
> other
> behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory,
> especially when
> nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes. did you
> not think
> of that?
>
> please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat
> detective, cat
> confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this
> stuff
> very clearly
>

this cat was not in the least bit skittish or nervous, she WAS
being a bitch. She was the alpha cat, and this was HER house and
she was NOT tolerating us doing anything without her permission.

Cats are a lot smarter than most folks give them credit for
being. And they do have more 'human' type behaviors IMHO than
folks give them credit for. And the ONLY time this cat would
urinate inappropriately was when she was ticked that something
was not going the way she wanted it to. If my daughter was out
too long, if she left too often... one of the times we caught her
at it was when the boyfriend moved her off her spot on the couch
so he could sit. That was the time she immediately ran upstairs
and peed on his side of the bed. Sorry, no one can convince me
that she wasn't making a statement, and it had nothing to do with
insecurity or being upset other than he ticked her off and she
was gonna show HIM who was in charge.

whatever. sorry I got into this at all, I know better. folks
don't want to hear that there may be other viewpoints than their
own, so I should only post to say "ooohhhh, how cute your kitty
is" or "gee, you are so totally right about that!"

glad we can have these friendly chats here and share our own
experiences without fear of being flamed.

I give up. you are right. I am wrong and stupid and hopeless.
Send me your address and I'll send you my poor abused kitty so
you can bring her up right and she won't be exposed to us
barbaric Americans any more. It's the least I can do for her if
I love her, right?

S

Sara
March 11th 07, 07:35 PM
"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
...
>
> "Sara" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> and for what it's worth, I can't see how taking away a cat's
>> ability to reproduce makes them any happier than removing
>> their claws. It's still painful surgery. It interferes with
>> their biological needs and instincts, it totally changes them
>> into an 'it'. You think that's not stressful?
>>
>> wot a loon.
>>
>
> Makes them an "it"??? And is that also how you feel about
> women who have had a hysterectomy?
>
> MaryL
>
>
well, in a sense, maybe so. Most women have a chance to go
through the normal biological process before they have to have a
hysterectomy. They usually are able to give birth and fulfull
the biological functions their bodies are meant to perform. Most
women who don't get the chance to go through those cycles have
many emotional and psychological problems because of it. And
they feel like they 'failed' at being a woman. Logic is well and
good, and you can say it's not their fault and they shouldn't
feel guilty or suffer emotionally because they never gave birth.
But every woman I've ever known who could not have a child has
had issues with that lack. (not including the ones who CHOSE not
to)

I just can't believe that cats don't deal with the same kind of
issues when we prevent their bodies from going through their
normal biological functions.

cybercat
March 11th 07, 08:10 PM
"William Graham" > wrote
> Watching the Houston and New York SPCA 's work on "Animal Planet" gives
> people a biased picture of the way pets are treated here in the US. In
> fact, we are a nation of fat, well fed people, who are animal
> lovers....the cases you see on the Telly are those few shockers that are
> worthy of making it to a television production, and do not tell the story
> of the millions and millions of happy, satisfied pets that exist all
> across this country. On my block alone, there are about 20 cats and 15 or
> so dogs who are very well fed and taken care of by all us owners....And
> the rest of my town is full of blocks just like mine. But none of these
> stories are newsworthy, and none of them are going to make it to an
> "Animal Planet" TV production.....the only ones that will, are the sordid
> stories of severe mistreatment that you will be able to watch every
> night.......

Very true.

22brix
March 11th 07, 08:37 PM
"Sara" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .com...
>
> I just can't believe that cats don't deal with the same kind of issues
> when we prevent their bodies from going through their normal biological
> functions.
>

So, you think we shouldn't spay and neuter cats because they might go
through some mental adjustments and long for the kittens they never had and
on the other hand, you think it's okay to amputate their toes and that it
doesn't cause them some mental and physical stress? Don't you think they
might actually have a harder time adjusting to a painful procedure, having
to walk on four very sore feet, just for your own convenience?

I would hazard a guess that there are many more cats and kittens being put
to sleep because of intact cats rather than because people don't declaw
their cats. There many valid arguments to be made in favor of neutering:
fewer unwanted animals, less fighting and subsequently less chance of
infectious diseases being spread, less bite and scratch infections,
eliminates the chance of pyometra (of which Sheelagh can give you a graphic
description) and for our convenience, less caterwauling and tomcatting.

I really can't think of any valid reason to not neuter or spay. On the
other hand, I can't think of valid reasons to declaw--the reasons given seem
to be solely for the convenience of the owner. There are other options than
declawing and if declawing was illegal, it wouldn't be an option. People
would have to learn to live with cats with claws. Training, soft paws,
scratching posts and patience--it's not that hard and much easier on the
cat.

Bonnie

Charlie Wilkes
March 11th 07, 09:03 PM
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:32:31 -0500, MaryL wrote:

> "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
>> objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
>> etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
>> and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
>> different?
>>
>> Charlie
>
> But how many people do you think would *voluntarily* (that is, without a
> medical reason) have their toes and/or fingers amputated? And of those
> who lost their toes or fingers due to frostbite, how many do think would
> say they "didn't miss them" or that it "didn't affect" them in any way?
> Many people can lead happy, productive lives after catastrophic
> accidents, too -- but that doesn't mean that I would deliberately
> subject anyone to such an event, just as I would not subject my cats to
> amputation.
>
> MaryL

Your thinking is entirely reasonable. I suspect, however, that most
cats, having been subjected to this procedure, are able to adjust to it
and lead happy lives... assuming they are otherwise well cared for.

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes
March 11th 07, 09:39 PM
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:27:40 -0400, Sara wrote:

> "bookie" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
>>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [snipped]
>
>> oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are not
>> capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that klind of
>> human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or scared or
>> upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties are
>> notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both are
>> really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all. A cat
>> cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal way,
>> it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the onl;y
>> way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or other
>> behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory, especially when
>> nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes. did you not think
>> of that?
>>
>> please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat detective, cat
>> confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this stuff
>> very clearly
>>
>>
> this cat was not in the least bit skittish or nervous, she WAS being a
> bitch. She was the alpha cat, and this was HER house and she was NOT
> tolerating us doing anything without her permission.

Alpha cat??? How ridiculous. Bookie is right... your cat behaved the
way it did because it was stressed out. Read one of the books she
recommends if you doubt it.

Charlie

William Graham
March 11th 07, 09:44 PM
"Sara" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .com...
>
> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Sara" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> and for what it's worth, I can't see how taking away a cat's ability to
>>> reproduce makes them any happier than removing their claws. It's still
>>> painful surgery. It interferes with their biological needs and
>>> instincts, it totally changes them into an 'it'. You think that's not
>>> stressful?
>>>
>>> wot a loon.
>>>
>>
>> Makes them an "it"??? And is that also how you feel about women who have
>> had a hysterectomy?
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>>
> well, in a sense, maybe so. Most women have a chance to go through the
> normal biological process before they have to have a hysterectomy. They
> usually are able to give birth and fulfull the biological functions their
> bodies are meant to perform. Most women who don't get the chance to go
> through those cycles have many emotional and psychological problems
> because of it. And they feel like they 'failed' at being a woman. Logic
> is well and good, and you can say it's not their fault and they shouldn't
> feel guilty or suffer emotionally because they never gave birth. But every
> woman I've ever known who could not have a child has had issues with that
> lack. (not including the ones who CHOSE not to)
>
> I just can't believe that cats don't deal with the same kind of issues
> when we prevent their bodies from going through their normal biological
> functions.
>
Yeah, but cats don't suffer from the social stigma that some people do. A
cat can live a perfectly healthy social life with other cats even though
he/she has been neutered....The other cats don't sit around whispering
behind her back, "I wonder why she never had any children?"....."Maybe she's
gay."

Sara
March 11th 07, 09:53 PM
"22brix" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sara" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .com...
>>
>> I just can't believe that cats don't deal with the same kind
>> of issues when we prevent their bodies from going through
>> their normal biological functions.
>>
>
> So, you think we shouldn't spay and neuter cats because they
> might go through some mental adjustments and long for the
> kittens they never had and on the other hand, you think it's
> okay to amputate their toes and that it doesn't cause them some
> mental and physical stress? Don't you think they might
> actually have a harder time adjusting to a painful procedure,
> having to walk on four very sore feet, just for your own
> convenience?
>
> I would hazard a guess that there are many more cats and
> kittens being put to sleep because of intact cats rather than
> because people don't declaw their cats. There many valid
> arguments to be made in favor of neutering: fewer unwanted
> animals, less fighting and subsequently less chance of
> infectious diseases being spread, less bite and scratch
> infections, eliminates the chance of pyometra (of which
> Sheelagh can give you a graphic description) and for our
> convenience, less caterwauling and tomcatting.
>
> I really can't think of any valid reason to not neuter or spay.
> On the other hand, I can't think of valid reasons to
> declaw--the reasons given seem to be solely for the convenience
> of the owner. There are other options than declawing and if
> declawing was illegal, it wouldn't be an option. People would
> have to learn to live with cats with claws. Training, soft
> paws, scratching posts and patience--it's not that hard and
> much easier on the cat.
>
> Bonnie
>
>
>

I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all the
animals who have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I
said was that I think it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as
far as their physical and emotional well being goes, as declawing
them is. As a responsible cat caretaker, I try to do the
responsible thing for our cats -- but sometimes you have to
consider other things than just the cat's wellbeing, and make
some compromises.

My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to prevent
toddlers being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by
waiting for her to scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no
no', until she understood not to claw at the kids face when the
kid is hugging her until she can hardly breathe...

It wasn't my furniture, carpeting, or anything else. And she
has her back claws, so she only had two sore feet.... for about 2
days. She runs, climbs, jumps, and "sharpens" her 'claws' on my
furniture all the time, so I have a hard time believing they hurt
her at all.

Oh, and by the way, it wasn't my choice to bring a kitty home
when we acquired her. She was born outside, of a Feral mother,
and the people whose front porch she was born under were going to
take them all to the humane society. My daughter worked her butt
off finding homes for 3 of the 4 kittens. She brought this one
home, and I kinda got put into the position of letting her move
in, or telling my daughter, no, take her to the shelter. I have
a friend who volunteers there, and she told me they had so many
kittens at the time, they were putting them down for any little
reason instead of trying to treat minor illnesses because they
didn't have the room or manpower to deal with all the kittens
they had.

Dunno, I still think declawing her was the least of all evils at
that point. I wouldn't do it now that the little ones are
older, and can understand that if they hurt kitty, kitty will
hurt them back. But at the time, that just wasn't an option.
And, if declawing was illegal here, this cat would have had to go
to the animal shelter, and I don't know of any no-kill shelters
nearby.

But I guess I'm just making excuses, I should have given this
kitten a home, AND let her scratch up the babies faces until she
learned not to do that to protect herself against little hands
and little hugging arms and excited toddlers throwing themselves
on her for a big hug.

Go ahead, judge me :) you don't have a clue.

Christina Websell
March 11th 07, 10:43 PM
"Sara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "22brix" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Sara" > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] .com...
>>
>>
>
> I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all the animals who
> have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I said was that I think
> it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as far as their physical and
> emotional well being goes, as declawing them is. As a responsible cat
> caretaker, I try to do the responsible thing for our cats -- but sometimes
> you have to consider other things than just the cat's wellbeing, and make
> some compromises.
>
> My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to prevent toddlers
> being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by waiting for her to
> scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no no', until she understood
> not to claw at the kids face when the kid is hugging her until she can
> hardly breathe...

Oh my goodness. You allowed your toddler to hug your cat until she could
hardly breathe? Of course the cat will scratch in those circumstances.
Rather than mutilate the cat you should have rehomed her.
There is no excuse whatsoever for declawing except for medical reasons.
It's barbaric and rightly outlawed in most countries.

Tweed

cybercat
March 11th 07, 11:03 PM
"Sara" > wrote
>>
>
> I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all the animals who
> have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I said was that I think
> it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as far as their physical and
> emotional well being goes, as declawing them is.



Here's a clue for you: a cat does not use her uterus and ovaries
every day for activities that are necessary and pleasurable to her.
Testicles= same story. (Neutered males still hump and get erections,
so forget about that argument.)

I had a declawed cat for 20 years. Every morning, when I watch my
current, "clawed" cat have a long satisfying scratch on her tall post,
I think of her.

Has anyone ever suggested to you that you are an idiot, Sara?

cybercat
March 11th 07, 11:04 PM
"William Graham" > wrote
> Yeah, but cats don't suffer from the social stigma that some people do. A
> cat can live a perfectly healthy social life with other cats even though
> he/she has been neutered....The other cats don't sit around whispering
> behind her back, "I wonder why she never had any children?"....."Maybe
> she's gay."
>

hahaha

You kill me, William.

bookie
March 11th 07, 11:38 PM
On 11 Mar, 21:03, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:32:31 -0500, MaryL wrote:
> > "Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> objective view of the topics you write about... men, declawing of cats,
> >> etc. etc. Many people have lost toes and fingers because of frostbite
> >> and have gone on to lead normal, happy lives. Why should a cat be any
> >> different?
>
> >> Charlie
>
> > But how many people do you think would *voluntarily* (that is, without a
> > medical reason) have their toes and/or fingers amputated? And of those
> > who lost their toes or fingers due to frostbite, how many do think would
> > say they "didn't miss them" or that it "didn't affect" them in any way?
> > Many people can lead happy, productive lives after catastrophic
> > accidents, too -- but that doesn't mean that I would deliberately
> > subject anyone to such an event, just as I would not subject my cats to
> > amputation.
>
> > MaryL
>
> Your thinking is entirely reasonable. I suspect, however, that most
> cats, having been subjected to this procedure, are able to adjust to it
> and lead happy lives... assuming they are otherwise well cared for.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have just my post replying to the one about your frost bite comment,
my typing is appalling! i really must take more care in future,
although in my defence I had only just got up, and it is sunday.

James
March 11th 07, 11:54 PM
I tend to believe people who has first hand experience than people who
read a book.

Having read a book does not give one the right to be parental. Now if
someone had said "I had a cat who peed all over for years but I was
able to train it to stop" would make me listen.

Telling others what to do without having experience the situation
amounts to being a busybody.

Name calling hotheads are just that and do not aid their cause.

bookie
March 11th 07, 11:58 PM
On 11 Mar, 17:51, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "bookie" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
> >>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> >>> > But we live in
> >>> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
> >>> >> kicked by kids,
>
> >>> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring for
> >>> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
> >>> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we teach
> >>> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>
> >>> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........
>
> >> eh?
>
> > In countries where the people are starving, the first thing to go are the
> > pets........
>
> Watching the Houston and New York SPCA 's work on "Animal Planet" gives
> people a biased picture of the way pets are treated here in the US. In fact,
> we are a nation of fat, well fed people, who are animal lovers....the cases
> you see on the Telly are those few shockers that are worthy of making it to
> a television production, and do not tell the story of the millions and
> millions of happy, satisfied pets that exist all across this country. On my
> block alone, there are about 20 cats and 15 or so dogs who are very well fed
> and taken care of by all us owners....And the rest of my town is full of
> blocks just like mine. But none of these stories are newsworthy, and none of
> them are going to make it to an "Animal Planet" TV production.....the only
> ones that will, are the sordid stories of severe mistreatment that you will
> be able to watch every night.......- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

er.....i dont't get or watch animal planet, is that a prograame or a
video? this may shock you but we only have 5 tv channels over here
(not going to waste good money on sky tv, most of it seems to be crap
anyway). if there is not something decent to watch we do somethign
quiet crazy over here inthe UK; we either read a book (gasp!) or we
got out and do something called exercise (thud! - a thousand fat
americans hit the floor in shock). this exercise can sometimes take
the form of something called 'sports' which you may recognise as being
very similar to one of your many television programmes, the one where
the little men onthe screen throw balls around, hit balls to each
other, run around a lot, etc. Well, although it may be something you
guys just watch on tv whilst eating vast quanities of processed
convenience foods, in other countries a large number of people go out
and actually do a version of these 'sports' themselves at weekends,
albeit in a much more amateur sense (ie we are not paid to do it, we
do it for 'fun').

I am sure that there is a small, even tiny, minority of people in your
country, who also partake of 'sports' in their spare time, sometimes
even when there isn't nothing even half decent to watch on the 30,000
tv channels you have over there, but i suspect that this number is
quite low compared to the numbers who are actively involved in
'sports', and the related activity 'exercise', in other countries
across the globe. i am not sure that this is totaly a cultural
difference though, but more because the proportion of people
permanently wedged into their armchairs and sofas due to their immense
size and morbid obesity is much lower across the rest of the globe
than in the USA. You see most of us inthe rest of the world can
actually stand up out of our armchairs and not pick said piece of
furniture up off the ground cos it is so tightly wedged round our fat
backsides, and this tends to help mobility and flexibilty which are
both useful when ti comes to 'sports'.

Anyway, I digress, because of these alternative activities on offer,
we do not feel the need to have such a large number of tv channels
available for our entertainment.

crazy what people round the world get up to isn;t it?

bookie
March 12th 07, 12:12 AM
On 11 Mar, 21:53, "Sara" > wrote:
> "22brix" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Sara" > wrote in message
> >news:[email protected] .com...
>
> >> I just can't believe that cats don't deal with the same kind
> >> of issues when we prevent their bodies from going through
> >> their normal biological functions.
>
> > So, you think we shouldn't spay and neuter cats because they
> > might go through some mental adjustments and long for the
> > kittens they never had and on the other hand, you think it's
> > okay to amputate their toes and that it doesn't cause them some
> > mental and physical stress? Don't you think they might
> > actually have a harder time adjusting to a painful procedure,
> > having to walk on four very sore feet, just for your own
> > convenience?
>
> > I would hazard a guess that there are many more cats and
> > kittens being put to sleep because of intact cats rather than
> > because people don't declaw their cats. There many valid
> > arguments to be made in favor of neutering: fewer unwanted
> > animals, less fighting and subsequently less chance of
> > infectious diseases being spread, less bite and scratch
> > infections, eliminates the chance of pyometra (of which
> > Sheelagh can give you a graphic description) and for our
> > convenience, less caterwauling and tomcatting.
>
> > I really can't think of any valid reason to not neuter or spay.
> > On the other hand, I can't think of valid reasons to
> > declaw--the reasons given seem to be solely for the convenience
> > of the owner. There are other options than declawing and if
> > declawing was illegal, it wouldn't be an option. People would
> > have to learn to live with cats with claws. Training, soft
> > paws, scratching posts and patience--it's not that hard and
> > much easier on the cat.
>
> > Bonnie
>
> I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all the
> animals who have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I
> said was that I think it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as
> far as their physical and emotional well being goes, as declawing
> them is. As a responsible cat caretaker, I try to do the
> responsible thing for our cats -- but sometimes you have to
> consider other things than just the cat's wellbeing, and make
> some compromises.
>
> My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to prevent
> toddlers being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by
> waiting for her to scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no
> no', until she understood not to claw at the kids face when the
> kid is hugging her until she can hardly breathe...

here's an idea; how about training your toddler not to manhandle the
cat? what is the problem with that, when the toddler goes for the act
you pull said brat away and say sharply 'no'. No need to explain why
to a toddler, it would be wasted breath anyway as kids that age don;t
understand reasoning and logic anyway, they have yet to develop a
theory of mind, they do not even see you as anything more than a weird
shape which provides the food and protection (sorry but thats true)
and they do not see you yet as an individual with feelings as yet
(again you won't want to hear that but again it's true).

Or you let the toddler pull the cat about once, cat scratches toddler
and inflicts a bit of pain, toddler will learn very quickly not to
interfere with cats inthat manner ever again and that lesson will sta
with it for rest of life. Or would you rather you kid grew up assumign
every cat had no front claws and will be unable to defend itself
against your kids maulings? what happens when your kid encounters a
normal cat (ie one which has not been mutilated by obssessive owners
who care nothing for an animal's well being?) and treats it in the
same undisciplined and disrespectful way it treats your cat? i think
we can work that one out.

by declawing your cat not only are you mutilating the cat but you are
also doing your toddler a massive disservice by bringing him up in an
artificial environment which will not prepare him fro the real world.
Enough people across the rest fo the world have babies toddlers, young
kids etc living together with cats and dogs, complete with razor sharp
claws, and they all seem to coexist perfectly as long as the kiddies
behave in a respectful manner towards the animals and learn to do so
from an early age. Only in america is your terrible argument deemed a
reasonable excuse to mutilate an animal, thnakfully most other places
have the sense to reject such rubbish

bookie

bookie
March 12th 07, 12:27 AM
On 11 Mar, 22:43, "Christina Websell"
> wrote:
> "Sara" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "22brix" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> "Sara" > wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected] .com...
>
> > I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all the animals who
> > have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I said was that I think
> > it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as far as their physical and
> > emotional well being goes, as declawing them is. As a responsible cat
> > caretaker, I try to do the responsible thing for our cats -- but sometimes
> > you have to consider other things than just the cat's wellbeing, and make
> > some compromises.
>
> > My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to prevent toddlers
> > being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by waiting for her to
> > scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no no', until she understood
> > not to claw at the kids face when the kid is hugging her until she can
> > hardly breathe...
>
> Oh my goodness. You allowed your toddler to hug your cat until she could
> hardly breathe? Of course the cat will scratch in those circumstances.
> Rather than mutilate the cat you should have rehomed her.
> There is no excuse whatsoever for declawing except for medical reasons.
> It's barbaric and rightly outlawed in most countries.
>
> Tweed- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

how about rehoming the toddler? what disturbs me most about ehat sara
has said is that she seems to think that the kitten/cat should 'learn
to put up with being hugged and squeezed' by grabbing grasping
toddlers, and should also learn not to put up a fight but just deal
with being squeezed to death. oh my god.

have you not thouhght sara that you have got that totally arse about
face there? how about your horrible brats learning not to manhandle
and be so rough with cats and kittens? how about that one? how about
you teaching them not to squeeze kittens until they are scared
****less and can't breathe? what you are allowing your nauseating
offspring to do is basically animal abuse, are you proud of that?

why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny precious
fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they will
get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat them
like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the cats
not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to me. When
the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and sank
their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my mother told
me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the little
kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if it was
really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was annoyed
with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never want to
play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was teach me
that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up, annoyed,
needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the kitten
was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently, why do
you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour kids
that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about and
abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them? also
ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl against your
little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.

you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart, so just
for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that yes i
do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her declawed,
you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl be
better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a decent
new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your nasty and
badly brought up children.

you people just make me weep at your stupidity

bookie

bookie
March 12th 07, 12:33 AM
On 11 Mar, 19:27, "Sara" > wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
> >> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in
> >> message
>
> ...
>
> >> [snipped]
> > oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are
> > not
> > capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that
> > klind of
> > human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or
> > scared or
> > upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties
> > are
> > notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both
> > are
> > really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all.
> > A cat
> > cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal
> > way,
> > it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the
> > onl;y
> > way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or
> > other
> > behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory,
> > especially when
> > nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes. did you
> > not think
> > of that?
>
> > please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat
> > detective, cat
> > confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this
> > stuff
> > very clearly
>
> this cat was not in the least bit skittish or nervous, she WAS
> being a bitch. She was the alpha cat, and this was HER house and
> she was NOT tolerating us doing anything without her permission.
>
> Cats are a lot smarter than most folks give them credit for
> being. And they do have more 'human' type behaviors IMHO than
> folks give them credit for. And the ONLY time this cat would
> urinate inappropriately was when she was ticked that something
> was not going the way she wanted it to. If my daughter was out
> too long, if she left too often... one of the times we caught her
> at it was when the boyfriend moved her off her spot on the couch
> so he could sit. That was the time she immediately ran upstairs
> and peed on his side of the bed. Sorry, no one can convince me
> that she wasn't making a statement, and it had nothing to do with
> insecurity or being upset other than he ticked her off and she
> was gonna show HIM who was in charge.
>
> whatever. sorry I got into this at all, I know better. folks
> don't want to hear that there may be other viewpoints than their
> own, so I should only post to say "ooohhhh, how cute your kitty
> is" or "gee, you are so totally right about that!"
>
> glad we can have these friendly chats here and share our own
> experiences without fear of being flamed.
>
> I give up. you are right. I am wrong and stupid and hopeless.
> Send me your address and I'll send you my poor abused kitty so
> you can bring her up right and she won't be exposed to us
> barbaric Americans any more. It's the least I can do for her if
> I love her, right?
>
> S- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

ok, please send her over, you obviously have no idea about animal
behaviour, cta woudl have a much better time of it here with me.

christ almighty how can a cat be a bitch? they are just not capable of
that emotion, they are not mailicious, read the books I ahve
recommended and then you migth understand what i am trying to say.

as for your last points; glad you have admitted your ignorance, coming
out of denial is always the first step

bookie
March 12th 07, 12:34 AM
On 11 Mar, 21:39, Charlie Wilkes >
wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:27:40 -0400, Sara wrote:
> > "bookie" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >> On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
> >>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >>> [snipped]
>
> >> oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are not
> >> capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that klind of
> >> human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or scared or
> >> upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties are
> >> notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both are
> >> really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all. A cat
> >> cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal way,
> >> it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the onl;y
> >> way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or other
> >> behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory, especially when
> >> nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes. did you not think
> >> of that?
>
> >> please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat detective, cat
> >> confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this stuff
> >> very clearly
>
> > this cat was not in the least bit skittish or nervous, she WAS being a
> > bitch. She was the alpha cat, and this was HER house and she was NOT
> > tolerating us doing anything without her permission.
>
> Alpha cat??? How ridiculous. Bookie is right... your cat behaved the
> way it did because it was stressed out. Read one of the books she
> recommends if you doubt it.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

thank you!

Normin
March 12th 07, 01:02 AM
you sure do a good job of twisting what people are trying to say.

get a life


"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 11 Mar, 22:43, "Christina Websell"
> > wrote:
>> "Sara" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "22brix" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> >> "Sara" > wrote in message
>> >>news:[email protected] .com...
>>
>> > I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all
>> > the animals who
>> > have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I said was
>> > that I think
>> > it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as far as their
>> > physical and
>> > emotional well being goes, as declawing them is. As a
>> > responsible cat
>> > caretaker, I try to do the responsible thing for our cats --
>> > but sometimes
>> > you have to consider other things than just the cat's
>> > wellbeing, and make
>> > some compromises.
>>
>> > My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to
>> > prevent toddlers
>> > being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by
>> > waiting for her to
>> > scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no no', until she
>> > understood
>> > not to claw at the kids face when the kid is hugging her
>> > until she can
>> > hardly breathe...
>>
>> Oh my goodness. You allowed your toddler to hug your cat
>> until she could
>> hardly breathe? Of course the cat will scratch in those
>> circumstances.
>> Rather than mutilate the cat you should have rehomed her.
>> There is no excuse whatsoever for declawing except for medical
>> reasons.
>> It's barbaric and rightly outlawed in most countries.
>>
>> Tweed- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> how about rehoming the toddler? what disturbs me most about
> ehat sara
> has said is that she seems to think that the kitten/cat should
> 'learn
> to put up with being hugged and squeezed' by grabbing grasping
> toddlers, and should also learn not to put up a fight but just
> deal
> with being squeezed to death. oh my god.
>
> have you not thouhght sara that you have got that totally arse
> about
> face there? how about your horrible brats learning not to
> manhandle
> and be so rough with cats and kittens? how about that one? how
> about
> you teaching them not to squeeze kittens until they are scared
> ****less and can't breathe? what you are allowing your
> nauseating
> offspring to do is basically animal abuse, are you proud of
> that?
>
> why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny
> precious
> fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they
> will
> get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat
> them
> like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the
> cats
> not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to
> me. When
> the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and
> sank
> their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my
> mother told
> me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the
> little
> kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if
> it was
> really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was
> annoyed
> with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never
> want to
> play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was
> teach me
> that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up,
> annoyed,
> needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the
> kitten
> was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently,
> why do
> you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour
> kids
> that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about
> and
> abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them?
> also
> ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl
> against your
> little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>
> you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart,
> so just
> for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that
> yes i
> do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her
> declawed,
> you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl
> be
> better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a
> decent
> new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your
> nasty and
> badly brought up children.
>
> you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>
> bookie
>

William Graham
March 12th 07, 01:14 AM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 11 Mar, 17:51, "William Graham" > wrote:
>> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "bookie" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >> On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
>> >>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> >>> > But we live in
>> >>> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
>> >>> >> kicked by kids,
>>
>> >>> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring
>> >>> > for
>> >>> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
>> >>> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we
>> >>> > teach
>> >>> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>>
>> >>> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........
>>
>> >> eh?
>>
>> > In countries where the people are starving, the first thing to go are
>> > the
>> > pets........
>>
>> Watching the Houston and New York SPCA 's work on "Animal Planet" gives
>> people a biased picture of the way pets are treated here in the US. In
>> fact,
>> we are a nation of fat, well fed people, who are animal lovers....the
>> cases
>> you see on the Telly are those few shockers that are worthy of making it
>> to
>> a television production, and do not tell the story of the millions and
>> millions of happy, satisfied pets that exist all across this country. On
>> my
>> block alone, there are about 20 cats and 15 or so dogs who are very well
>> fed
>> and taken care of by all us owners....And the rest of my town is full of
>> blocks just like mine. But none of these stories are newsworthy, and none
>> of
>> them are going to make it to an "Animal Planet" TV production.....the
>> only
>> ones that will, are the sordid stories of severe mistreatment that you
>> will
>> be able to watch every night.......- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> er.....i dont't get or watch animal planet, is that a prograame or a
> video? this may shock you but we only have 5 tv channels over here
> (not going to waste good money on sky tv, most of it seems to be crap
> anyway).

Then whatever gave you the idea that we Americans misstreat our animals? We
are probably the kindest pet owners on Earth.....


if there is not something decent to watch we do somethign
> quiet crazy over here inthe UK;


I agree that TV is terrible, but I can't be responsible for that....I have
two hobbies....Playing the trumpet, and photography. I am enguaged in one of
these two most of the time, although (obviously) I do spend too much time in
front of a computer as I am doing right now.....

we either read a book (gasp!) or we
> got out and do something called exercise (thud! - a thousand fat
> americans hit the floor in shock). this exercise can sometimes take
> the form of something called 'sports' which you may recognise as being
> very similar to one of your many television programmes, the one where
> the little men onthe screen throw balls around, hit balls to each
> other, run around a lot, etc. Well, although it may be something you
> guys just watch on tv whilst eating vast quanities of processed
> convenience foods, in other countries a large number of people go out
> and actually do a version of these 'sports' themselves at weekends,
> albeit in a much more amateur sense (ie we are not paid to do it, we
> do it for 'fun').

I think you have a very biased idea of what we Americans do.....You should
come over here on a holiday sometime, and look around for yourself....You
might be surprised to find that we are very much the same as the people in
your country. Not that we don't spend too much time on our asses, mind you,
but it isn't THAT much time. Our average weight to height ratio is probably
only minutely greater than yours, if there is any difference at all......


>
> I am sure that there is a small, even tiny, minority of people in your
> country, who also partake of 'sports' in their spare time, sometimes
> even when there isn't nothing even half decent to watch on the 30,000
> tv channels you have over there, but i suspect that this number is
> quite low compared to the numbers who are actively involved in
> 'sports', and the related activity 'exercise', in other countries
> across the globe. i am not sure that this is totaly a cultural
> difference though, but more because the proportion of people
> permanently wedged into their armchairs and sofas due to their immense
> size and morbid obesity is much lower across the rest of the globe
> than in the USA. You see most of us inthe rest of the world can
> actually stand up out of our armchairs and not pick said piece of
> furniture up off the ground cos it is so tightly wedged round our fat
> backsides, and this tends to help mobility and flexibilty which are
> both useful when ti comes to 'sports'.
>
> Anyway, I digress, because of these alternative activities on offer,
> we do not feel the need to have such a large number of tv channels
> available for our entertainment.
>
> crazy what people round the world get up to isn;t it?
>

I get about 70 channels over my cable system....That is the basic
number....I don't pay for any extra channels.....Most of them are crap. - I
only watch programs on about a dozen different channels every week. - Most
of these are news broadcasts. One of our channels is called, "Animal Planet"
it has a variety of shows concerning animals, and their care, feeding, and
ecology. It is one of the better channels, and I probably watch it like 20%
of the time that I watch TV. It has many specials about African and
Australian animals, and a few about polar bears and sea lions and the like
shot at or near the North Pole.....It's too bad that you don't get it, but
they probably show an occasional special about animals on one of the
channels you do get. - I can assure you that all of my friends and I have no
trouble getting out of our armchairs and walking, but at 71, I don't do much
running anymore.......

Stacey Weinberger
March 12th 07, 01:21 AM
> how about rehoming the toddler? what disturbs me most about ehat sara
> has said is that she seems to think that the kitten/cat should 'learn
> to put up with being hugged and squeezed' by grabbing grasping
> toddlers, and should also learn not to put up a fight but just deal
> with being squeezed to death. oh my god.
>
> have you not thouhght sara that you have got that totally arse about
> face there? how about your horrible brats learning not to manhandle
> and be so rough with cats and kittens? how about that one? how about
> you teaching them not to squeeze kittens until they are scared
> ****less and can't breathe? what you are allowing your nauseating
> offspring to do is basically animal abuse, are you proud of that?
>
> why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny precious
> fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they will
> get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat them
> like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the cats
> not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to me. When
> the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and sank
> their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my mother told
> me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the little
> kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if it was
> really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was annoyed
> with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never want to
> play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was teach me
> that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up, annoyed,
> needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the kitten
> was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently, why do
> you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour kids
> that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about and
> abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them? also
> ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl against your
> little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>
> you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart, so just
> for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that yes i
> do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her declawed,
> you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl be
> better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a decent
> new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your nasty and
> badly brought up children.
>
> you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>
> bookie

It's because in this country (USA) children are gods and we must bow down to
them and serve them and change everything around us for our gods, including
mutilating animals and depleting natural resources.

Stacey

Charlie Wilkes
March 12th 07, 01:27 AM
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:34:14 -0700, bookie wrote:

> On 11 Mar, 21:39, Charlie Wilkes >
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:27:40 -0400, Sara wrote:
>> > "bookie" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >> On 11 Mar, 04:00, "Sara" > wrote:
>> >>> "MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >>> [snipped]
>>
>> >> oh christ almighty! NO SHE WASN'T BEING A BITCH!!!! cats are not
>> >> capable of being spiteful they are not capable havign that klind of
>> >> human emotion, she was probably traumatised by something, or scared
>> >> or upset, and this is how they deal with it and show it. torties are
>> >> notoriously skittish, although I have 2 now with me and both are
>> >> really calm and relaxed and have not behavioural issues at all. A
>> >> cat cannot tell you it is scared or confused or upset in the normal
>> >> way, it cannot go see a therapist to talk through it's issues, the
>> >> onl;y way it can do so is by indulging in inapproriate toileting or
>> >> other behaviours like that, possibly to mark it's territory,
>> >> especially when nawcomers like this boyfriend come into their homes.
>> >> did you not think of that?
>>
>> >> please read any of the 3 books by Vicky halls, the cat detective,
>> >> cat confidential or the cat counsellour, they explain all of this
>> >> stuff very clearly
>>
>> > this cat was not in the least bit skittish or nervous, she WAS being
>> > a bitch. She was the alpha cat, and this was HER house and she was
>> > NOT tolerating us doing anything without her permission.
>>
>> Alpha cat??? How ridiculous. Bookie is right... your cat behaved the
>> way it did because it was stressed out. Read one of the books she
>> recommends if you doubt it.
>>
>> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> thank you!

Hmmm. I don't think I'd have jumped in the way I did if I had read all
of the excoriating comments directed at Sara. I particularly don't ever
want to find myself on the same side of an argument as the execrable Ms.
Websell.

But the Alpha Cat comment tripped a Pavlovian response... the Alpha Dog
model of pack hierarchies has been debunked by a 30-year study of dogs
sponsored by Yale, which found that the top dogs in a pack are not the
ones who are most aggressive. And yet many people continue to believe
that the way to train a dog is to dominate and intimidate it because
"that's what the alpha dog does in a wild dog pack..." I have spent a
lot of time debating these people in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, and when I
saw a reference to the Alpha theory here, my fingers began to twitch.

Cats of course are not pack animals, so the concept of an Alpha Cat is
doubly ridiculous.

But, having said that, I can understand how many people conclude that de-
clawing is acceptable, because I have been around de-clawed cats who
seemed perfectly happy, healthy and contented with life.

Charlie

bookie
March 12th 07, 01:40 AM
On 12 Mar, 01:02, "Normin" > wrote:
> you sure do a good job of twisting what people are trying to say.
>
> get a life
>
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 11 Mar, 22:43, "Christina Websell"
> > > wrote:
> >> "Sara" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > "22brix" > wrote in message
> >> ...
>
> >> >> "Sara" > wrote in message
> >> >>news:[email protected] .com...
>
> >> > I never said I don't believe in neutering. I did say all
> >> > the animals who
> >> > have ever lived with us have been neutered. What I said was
> >> > that I think
> >> > it's just as bad to neuter an animal, as far as their
> >> > physical and
> >> > emotional well being goes, as declawing them is. As a
> >> > responsible cat
> >> > caretaker, I try to do the responsible thing for our cats --
> >> > but sometimes
> >> > you have to consider other things than just the cat's
> >> > wellbeing, and make
> >> > some compromises.
>
> >> > My main reason for declawing the kitty we have now was to
> >> > prevent toddlers
> >> > being scratched. I couldn't afford to 'train' her by
> >> > waiting for her to
> >> > scratch a little one's eyes, and then say 'no no', until she
> >> > understood
> >> > not to claw at the kids face when the kid is hugging her
> >> > until she can
> >> > hardly breathe...
>
> >> Oh my goodness. You allowed your toddler to hug your cat
> >> until she could
> >> hardly breathe? Of course the cat will scratch in those
> >> circumstances.
> >> Rather than mutilate the cat you should have rehomed her.
> >> There is no excuse whatsoever for declawing except for medical
> >> reasons.
> >> It's barbaric and rightly outlawed in most countries.
>
> >> Tweed- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > how about rehoming the toddler? what disturbs me most about
> > ehat sara
> > has said is that she seems to think that the kitten/cat should
> > 'learn
> > to put up with being hugged and squeezed' by grabbing grasping
> > toddlers, and should also learn not to put up a fight but just
> > deal
> > with being squeezed to death. oh my god.
>
> > have you not thouhght sara that you have got that totally arse
> > about
> > face there? how about your horrible brats learning not to
> > manhandle
> > and be so rough with cats and kittens? how about that one? how
> > about
> > you teaching them not to squeeze kittens until they are scared
> > ****less and can't breathe? what you are allowing your
> > nauseating
> > offspring to do is basically animal abuse, are you proud of
> > that?
>
> > why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny
> > precious
> > fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they
> > will
> > get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat
> > them
> > like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the
> > cats
> > not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to
> > me. When
> > the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and
> > sank
> > their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my
> > mother told
> > me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the
> > little
> > kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if
> > it was
> > really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was
> > annoyed
> > with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never
> > want to
> > play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was
> > teach me
> > that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up,
> > annoyed,
> > needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the
> > kitten
> > was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently,
> > why do
> > you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour
> > kids
> > that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about
> > and
> > abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them?
> > also
> > ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl
> > against your
> > little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>
> > you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart,
> > so just
> > for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that
> > yes i
> > do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her
> > declawed,
> > you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl
> > be
> > better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a
> > decent
> > new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your
> > nasty and
> > badly brought up children.
>
> > you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>
> > bookie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

not twisting it at all, that is exactly what she said, she wants the
cat to learn to put up with being manhandled, read her post again

bookie
March 12th 07, 01:42 AM
On 12 Mar, 01:21, "Stacey Weinberger" >
wrote:
> > how about rehoming the toddler? what disturbs me most about ehat sara
> > has said is that she seems to think that the kitten/cat should 'learn
> > to put up with being hugged and squeezed' by grabbing grasping
> > toddlers, and should also learn not to put up a fight but just deal
> > with being squeezed to death. oh my god.
>
> > have you not thouhght sara that you have got that totally arse about
> > face there? how about your horrible brats learning not to manhandle
> > and be so rough with cats and kittens? how about that one? how about
> > you teaching them not to squeeze kittens until they are scared
> > ****less and can't breathe? what you are allowing your nauseating
> > offspring to do is basically animal abuse, are you proud of that?
>
> > why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny precious
> > fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they will
> > get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat them
> > like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the cats
> > not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to me. When
> > the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and sank
> > their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my mother told
> > me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the little
> > kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if it was
> > really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was annoyed
> > with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never want to
> > play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was teach me
> > that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up, annoyed,
> > needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the kitten
> > was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently, why do
> > you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour kids
> > that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about and
> > abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them? also
> > ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl against your
> > little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>
> > you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart, so just
> > for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that yes i
> > do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her declawed,
> > you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl be
> > better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a decent
> > new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your nasty and
> > badly brought up children.
>
> > you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>
> > bookie
>
> It's because in this country (USA) children are gods and we must bow down to
> them and serve them and change everything around us for our gods, including
> mutilating animals and depleting natural resources.
>
> Stacey- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

getting that way inthe UK, unfortunately and it really is not helping
kids at all or preparing them for what the real world will be like for
them when they are no longer kids and have to take responsibility for
their own actions. killing them with kindness , as it were

bookie
March 12th 07, 01:44 AM
>
> But, having said that, I can understand how many people conclude that de-
> clawing is acceptable, because I have been around de-clawed cats who
> seemed perfectly happy, healthy and contented with life.
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i like the use of the word 'seemed' there

Stacey Weinberger
March 12th 07, 01:47 AM
>> > why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny precious
>> > fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they will
>> > get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat them
>> > like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the cats
>> > not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to me. When
>> > the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and sank
>> > their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my mother told
>> > me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the little
>> > kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if it was
>> > really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was annoyed
>> > with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never want to
>> > play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was teach me
>> > that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up, annoyed,
>> > needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the kitten
>> > was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently, why do
>> > you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour kids
>> > that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about and
>> > abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them? also
>> > ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl against your
>> > little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>>
>> > you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart, so just
>> > for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that yes i
>> > do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her declawed,
>> > you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl be
>> > better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a decent
>> > new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your nasty and
>> > badly brought up children.
>>
>> > you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>>
>> > bookie
>>
>> It's because in this country (USA) children are gods and we must bow down
>> to
>> them and serve them and change everything around us for our gods,
>> including
>> mutilating animals and depleting natural resources.
>>
>> Stacey- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> getting that way inthe UK, unfortunately and it really is not helping
> kids at all or preparing them for what the real world will be like for
> them when they are no longer kids and have to take responsibility for
> their own actions. killing them with kindness , as it were

Even as adults their parents still take care of them and give them money,
pay for their apartments, etc. As long as little Caitlin or Sean can
"express themselves." I wonder if when they get fired from their jobs will
their parents call up their bosses and tell them how awful they are and how
they have to rehire them or even threaten to sue. Heck, it works when the
kid doesn't do well in school and teacher or principal gets blamed.

Stacey

bookie
March 12th 07, 01:57 AM
On 12 Mar, 01:14, "William Graham" > wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11 Mar, 17:51, "William Graham" > wrote:
> >> "William Graham" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > "bookie" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >> On 11 Mar, 02:20, "William Graham" > wrote:
> >> >>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>
> >> ups.com...
>
> >> >>> > But we live in
> >> >>> >> the city, and there's no way I'll allow her to be hit by a car,
> >> >>> >> kicked by kids,
>
> >> >>> > and your country has a good record of treating animals and caring
> >> >>> > for
> >> >>> > them? i think not with that comment, I know that when my cats go
> >> >>> > outside they are not going to be kicked by kids, why? because we
> >> >>> > teach
> >> >>> > our children to have respect for other living creatures thats why
>
> >> >>> That'll work......Until they are starving to death........
>
> >> >> eh?
>
> >> > In countries where the people are starving, the first thing to go are
> >> > the
> >> > pets........
>
> >> Watching the Houston and New York SPCA 's work on "Animal Planet" gives
> >> people a biased picture of the way pets are treated here in the US. In
> >> fact,
> >> we are a nation of fat, well fed people, who are animal lovers....the
> >> cases
> >> you see on the Telly are those few shockers that are worthy of making it
> >> to
> >> a television production, and do not tell the story of the millions and
> >> millions of happy, satisfied pets that exist all across this country. On
> >> my
> >> block alone, there are about 20 cats and 15 or so dogs who are very well
> >> fed
> >> and taken care of by all us owners....And the rest of my town is full of
> >> blocks just like mine. But none of these stories are newsworthy, and none
> >> of
> >> them are going to make it to an "Animal Planet" TV production.....the
> >> only
> >> ones that will, are the sordid stories of severe mistreatment that you
> >> will
> >> be able to watch every night.......- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > er.....i dont't get or watch animal planet, is that a prograame or a
> > video? this may shock you but we only have 5 tv channels over here
> > (not going to waste good money on sky tv, most of it seems to be crap
> > anyway).
>
> Then whatever gave you the idea that we Americans misstreat our animals? We
> are probably the kindest pet owners on Earth.....
>
> if there is not something decent to watch we do somethign
>
> > quiet crazy over here inthe UK;
>
> I agree that TV is terrible, but I can't be responsible for that....I have
> two hobbies....Playing the trumpet, and photography. I am enguaged in one of
> these two most of the time, although (obviously) I do spend too much time in
> front of a computer as I am doing right now.....
>
> we either read a book (gasp!) or we
>
> > got out and do something called exercise (thud! - a thousand fat
> > americans hit the floor in shock). this exercise can sometimes take
> > the form of something called 'sports' which you may recognise as being
> > very similar to one of your many television programmes, the one where
> > the little men onthe screen throw balls around, hit balls to each
> > other, run around a lot, etc. Well, although it may be something you
> > guys just watch on tv whilst eating vast quanities of processed
> > convenience foods, in other countries a large number of people go out
> > and actually do a version of these 'sports' themselves at weekends,
> > albeit in a much more amateur sense (ie we are not paid to do it, we
> > do it for 'fun').
>
> I think you have a very biased idea of what we Americans do.....You should
> come over here on a holiday sometime, and look around for yourself....You
> might be surprised to find that we are very much the same as the people in
> your country. Not that we don't spend too much time on our asses, mind you,
> but it isn't THAT much time. Our average weight to height ratio is probably
> only minutely greater than yours, if there is any difference at all......
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am sure that there is a small, even tiny, minority of people in your
> > country, who also partake of 'sports' in their spare time, sometimes
> > even when there isn't nothing even half decent to watch on the 30,000
> > tv channels you have over there, but i suspect that this number is
> > quite low compared to the numbers who are actively involved in
> > 'sports', and the related activity 'exercise', in other countries
> > across the globe. i am not sure that this is totaly a cultural
> > difference though, but more because the proportion of people
> > permanently wedged into their armchairs and sofas due to their immense
> > size and morbid obesity is much lower across the rest of the globe
> > than in the USA. You see most of us inthe rest of the world can
> > actually stand up out of our armchairs and not pick said piece of
> > furniture up off the ground cos it is so tightly wedged round our fat
> > backsides, and this tends to help mobility and flexibilty which are
> > both useful when ti comes to 'sports'.
>
> > Anyway, I digress, because of these alternative activities on offer,
> > we do not feel the need to have such a large number of tv channels
> > available for our entertainment.
>
> > crazy what people round the world get up to isn;t it?
>
> I get about 70 channels over my cable system....That is the basic
> number....I don't pay for any extra channels.....Most of them are crap. - I
> only watch programs on about a dozen different channels every week. - Most
> of these are news broadcasts. One of our channels is called, "Animal Planet"
> it has a variety of shows concerning animals, and their care, feeding, and
> ecology. It is one of the better channels, and I probably watch it like 20%
> of the time that I watch TV. It has many specials about African and
> Australian animals, and a few about polar bears and sea lions and the like
> shot at or near the North Pole.....It's too bad that you don't get it, but
> they probably show an occasional special about animals on one of the
> channels you do get. - I can assure you that all of my friends and I have no
> trouble getting out of our armchairs and walking, but at 71, I don't do much
> running anymore.......- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

thank you but I have been to the US of A a number of times and every
time i go i am stil shocked by the number of hugely overweight and
obese people there are waddling about 'malls' or being driven about in
huge cars. Even people who are considered 'slim' in your country would
be considered 'fat' to us here, it is just what we are used to.
I think you may be kidding yourself if you think that americans are
only a tiny bit bigger and heavier than brits, certainly the english
are nowhere near as big, can't speak for scots people though who deep
fry everything and have the worst levels or heart disease in western
europe (they even deep fry mars bar and other chocolate bars, battered
first of course. I went to one chippy in edinburgh which did deep
fried pizza, I mean really!).

you just don't see the either the number of fat people or that size of
people in the UK or england that you do in USA

bookie
March 12th 07, 02:07 AM
On 12 Mar, 01:47, "Stacey Weinberger" >
wrote:
> >> > why the hell do you not teach your kids to respect these tiny precious
> >> > fragile living creatures? handle them gently (or otherwise they will
> >> > get scratched cos kitty is scared) and not squeeze them, treat them
> >> > like the honoured guests and precious angels that they are (the cats
> >> > not the kids, obviusly) that is how my mother explained it to me. When
> >> > the kittens got a little bigger and started to play rougher and sank
> >> > their claws and sometimes teeth in my hands during play my mother told
> >> > me not to pull my hand away too quickly as I coudl hurt the little
> >> > kittens teeth and paws and to put up with it for a bit,and if it was
> >> > really sharp then it was because I had upset kitty and she was annoyed
> >> > with me and that i should leave her alone or she would never want to
> >> > play with me ever again. what my mother was trying to do was teach me
> >> > that the cat had feelgins too, coudl get angry, fed up, annoyed,
> >> > needed time alone, just as a person would, and also that the kitten
> >> > was a fragile little thing whichneeded to be handled gently, why do
> >> > you not teach your kids that? or are you too busy teachignyour kids
> >> > that cats and other animals are just toys to be thrown about and
> >> > abused, then probably discarded when they are bored of them? also
> >> > ofcourse making sure that the animal cannot defend itsefl against your
> >> > little monsters when she has ahd enough of being pulled about.
>
> >> > you have got your priorities and values all wrong sweetheart, so just
> >> > for that i agree with the poster just previosuly in saying that yes i
> >> > do think you have rehomed your kitten instead of getting her declawed,
> >> > you obviously have no respect for cats or animals and it woudl be
> >> > better a cat was in a shelter waiting a little bit longer for a decent
> >> > new home than going home with you to be terrorized by your nasty and
> >> > badly brought up children.
>
> >> > you people just make me weep at your stupidity
>
> >> > bookie
>
> >> It's because in this country (USA) children are gods and we must bow down
> >> to
> >> them and serve them and change everything around us for our gods,
> >> including
> >> mutilating animals and depleting natural resources.
>
> >> Stacey- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > getting that way inthe UK, unfortunately and it really is not helping
> > kids at all or preparing them for what the real world will be like for
> > them when they are no longer kids and have to take responsibility for
> > their own actions. killing them with kindness , as it were
>
> Even as adults their parents still take care of them and give them money,
> pay for their apartments, etc. As long as little Caitlin or Sean can
> "express themselves." I wonder if when they get fired from their jobs will
> their parents call up their bosses and tell them how awful they are and how
> they have to rehire them or even threaten to sue. Heck, it works when the
> kid doesn't do well in school and teacher or principal gets blamed.
>
> Stacey- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

ha ha! are you a teacher too? that is exactly what happens
unfortunately, one awful kid who left a school i taught at actually
got a job at a local firm in our town where a friend also works quite
high up. anyway thanks to his ****ty attitude, usual 'world owes me a
living' type thing, he got fired after a bout a week, and yes the
parents did storm down to the firm to say to the boss that he couldn't
treat their little darling that way. they got very short shrift!

with parents like that around screwing up their children's upbringing
what hope do we have for the next generation? so many of the little
brats in schools these days refuse to do anything they don;t want to
do, and no one makes them. the amount of times i hear some bloody kid
moan "but i don't want to do this, it's boring!!!" is untrue, and i
just reply saying that i don't want to do this either (teach them) or
be there either but that's tough and life's like that, we all have to
do stuff we don't want and that they are no exception. they soon shut
up and get on with it when they knwo I won't bend and give into their
whining.

Unfortunately too many teachers and parents will let the kids do what
they want when they want and not make them do thing which may be
unppleasant for them or hard or just not 'fun' the whole time, and so
they grow up never havign had to deal with unpleasantness or hard
work or having to work for what they want in life cos it is just given
to them by doting parents.
yes i really fear for the future at times cos it is in their hands

bookie

Charlie Wilkes
March 12th 07, 02:35 AM
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:44:41 -0700, bookie wrote:


>> But, having said that, I can understand how many people conclude that
>> de- clawing is acceptable, because I have been around de-clawed cats
>> who seemed perfectly happy, healthy and contented with life.
>>
>> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> i like the use of the word 'seemed' there

Thank you. I choose my words carefully. I do not have a special faculty
that allows me to know exactly what animals feel. Do you have greater
insight or more definitive sources of information?

Charlie

William Graham
March 12th 07, 05:13 AM
"Charlie Wilkes" > wrote in >

Thank you. I choose my words carefully. I do not have a special faculty
> that allows me to know exactly what animals feel. Do you have greater
> insight or more definitive sources of information?
>
> Charlie

I don't either, but I think I know a way to find out....Find a liberal
Democrat, and he/she should be able to tell you exactly what is going on
inside your cat's mind. After all, they all know what is going on inside
Bush's mind, so a cat should be a lot easier to figure out.......:^)

dgk
March 12th 07, 01:16 PM
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:02:44 -0500, "Sara" > wrote:

>
>"Billy U" > wrote in message
. 64...
>>
>>> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>>>
>>
>>
>> Emily:
>>
>> Way to go on the rational discourse. You make persuasive
>> arguments, not
>> the least of which that it is wise to offer social commentary
>> on Americans
>> and find a rather strained way to inject politics into a
>> discussion about
>> declawing cats.
>>
>>
>>
>What he said. I hope that lady has no kids if that's how she
>acts when you say something she disagrees with.
>
>For the record, we live with a 2 year old who had her front claws
>removed when she was spayed when she was about 3 months old. she
>was already running around the house the next day, and trying to
>jump on and off furniture. Good thing the doc gave me sedatives
>so she didn't tear out her surgical stitches or hurt her insides!
>
>
So tell me Sara, how is your cat doing climbing the cat tree?

Barbara
March 12th 07, 03:45 PM
Probably pretty good..

--
Barb
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:02:44 -0500, "Sara" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Billy U" > wrote in message
. 64...
>>>
>>>> i will try to stay calm but i can't promise anything....
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Emily:
>>>
>>> Way to go on the rational discourse. You make persuasive
>>> arguments, not
>>> the least of which that it is wise to offer social commentary
>>> on Americans
>>> and find a rather strained way to inject politics into a
>>> discussion about
>>> declawing cats.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What he said. I hope that lady has no kids if that's how she
>>acts when you say something she disagrees with.
>>
>>For the record, we live with a 2 year old who had her front claws
>>removed when she was spayed when she was about 3 months old. she
>>was already running around the house the next day, and trying to
>>jump on and off furniture. Good thing the doc gave me sedatives
>>so she didn't tear out her surgical stitches or hurt her insides!
>>
>>
> So tell me Sara, how is your cat doing climbing the cat tree?

Stick Waver
March 12th 07, 11:31 PM
wrote:

> On 9 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0800, "bookie" > wrote:
>
>
>>thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
>>are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
>>knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
>>removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
>>end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
>>junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
>>to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
>>the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
>>it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
>>think you would.
>
>
> Do you feel the same way about "female circumcision"? Hey, it's "just the
> removal of a piece of skin"!

Do you even know what you're talking about?

> Male circumcision is a barbaric and
> unnecessary ritual mutilation practice that should be abolished, same as
> declawing.

Stick Waver
March 13th 07, 03:58 AM
wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:31:52 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote:
>
>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 9 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0800, "bookie" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
>>>>are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
>>>>knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
>>>>removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
>>>>end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
>>>>junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
>>>>to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
>>>>the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
>>>>it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
>>>>think you would.
>>>
>>>
>>>Do you feel the same way about "female circumcision"? Hey, it's "just the
>>>removal of a piece of skin"!
>>
>>Do you even know what you're talking about?
>
>
> Yeah, I do. The OP apparently has no qualms about male genital mutilation,
> a.k.a. circumcision. So I asked if they felt the same if the circumcised
> victim was female, since the only visible public outcry against circumcision
> is if it's female circumcision being discussed.
> Neither a cat nor an infant
> child has any power to stop their guardian from needlessly mutilating them.

Thank you for your answer. We're now positive you don't know what
you're talking about.


> If the OP feels that strongly against one form of mutilation, then they
> should feel the same way the another. Naturally cats are born with claws
> and boys with foreskins. $DEITY put 'em there. If they were meant to be
> removed as a routine procedure, $DEITY wouldn't have put 'em there in the
> first place!
>
>
>>>Male circumcision is a barbaric and
>>>unnecessary ritual mutilation practice that should be abolished, same as
>>>declawing.
>
>
> I still stand by the above statement.

dgk
March 14th 07, 12:02 PM
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:42 -0400, "Barbara" >
wrote:

>Probably pretty good..

? A cat can climb a cat tree without claws? I had a declawed cat once.
He couldn't. He'd watch while my other cats would do it. I always felt
sad for him. I wasn't the one who had his fingers chopped off though.

dgk
March 14th 07, 12:02 PM
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:58:40 -0500, Stick Waver >
wrote:

wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:31:52 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote:
>>
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 9 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0800, "bookie" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
>>>>>are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
>>>>>knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
>>>>>removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
>>>>>end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
>>>>>junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
>>>>>to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
>>>>>the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
>>>>>it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
>>>>>think you would.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do you feel the same way about "female circumcision"? Hey, it's "just the
>>>>removal of a piece of skin"!
>>>
>>>Do you even know what you're talking about?
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I do. The OP apparently has no qualms about male genital mutilation,
>> a.k.a. circumcision. So I asked if they felt the same if the circumcised
>> victim was female, since the only visible public outcry against circumcision
>> is if it's female circumcision being discussed.
>> Neither a cat nor an infant
>> child has any power to stop their guardian from needlessly mutilating them.
>
>Thank you for your answer. We're now positive you don't know what
>you're talking about.
>
>

It's reasonably off topic, but Annoyed is right. I resent very much
that someone cut off part of my penis when I was a defenseless infant.

Stick Waver
March 14th 07, 12:39 PM
dgk wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:58:40 -0500, Stick Waver >
> wrote:
>
>
wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:31:52 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 9 Mar 2007 15:45:36 -0800, "bookie" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>thirdly, to equate circumcision with declawing just plain wrong, you
>>>>>>are so far off the mark with that one it is untrue. Do you actually
>>>>>>knwo what is involved with declawing? circumcision involves just the
>>>>>>removal of a piece if skin, declawinf involves removal of every single
>>>>>>end bone on the cats 4 paws fromthe end joint onwards, do you
>>>>>>junderstadn what that means? would you like it if someone came round
>>>>>>to you house and cut off the ends of all your fingers and toes from
>>>>>>the last joint on then did not bother to give you pain medication for
>>>>>>it whilst you climbed the walls in agony after you woke up? no i dont
>>>>>>think you would.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you feel the same way about "female circumcision"? Hey, it's "just the
>>>>>removal of a piece of skin"!
>>>>
>>>>Do you even know what you're talking about?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, I do. The OP apparently has no qualms about male genital mutilation,
>>>a.k.a. circumcision. So I asked if they felt the same if the circumcised
>>>victim was female, since the only visible public outcry against circumcision
>>>is if it's female circumcision being discussed.
>>>Neither a cat nor an infant
>>>child has any power to stop their guardian from needlessly mutilating them.
>>
>>Thank you for your answer. We're now positive you don't know what
>>you're talking about.
>>
>>
>
>
> It's reasonably off topic, but Annoyed is right. I resent very much
> that someone cut off part of my penis when I was a defenseless infant.

It still isn't in the same league as mutilation, which is what both
FGM and declawing are. And if Annoyed wasn't so ignorant about the
facts, as I purported, he would have realized this.

Barbara
March 14th 07, 01:27 PM
I know of some one who had a cat who was declawed, he climbed to the top of
the Christmas tree.

--
Barb
"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:42 -0400, "Barbara" >
> wrote:
>
>>Probably pretty good..
>
> ? A cat can climb a cat tree without claws? I had a declawed cat once.
> He couldn't. He'd watch while my other cats would do it. I always felt
> sad for him. I wasn't the one who had his fingers chopped off though.

Ron Herfurth
March 14th 07, 08:09 PM
"Stick Waver" > wrote in message
...
> James wrote:
>
>
> Never mind defense. Cats NEED their claws in order to scratch to relieve
> tension. If they cannot do this, guess how they will relieve tension? By
> biting your nuts off. Which you would deserve for mutilating a pet you
> supposedly care about.



Cats also use their claws to mark things (it's a cat thing I guess). So if
they can't mark things by scratching them, they mark things by ****ing on
them. Hard to see that as improvement.


ron

Upscale
March 15th 07, 05:55 AM
> wrote in message
> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is. Your
> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation is
duly
> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote, "it's
> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!

Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain difference
between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male compared
to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of toebones
from a cat.

mskitty834
March 15th 07, 08:12 AM
> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>
> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Because he will still spray inside your house, scream for female
attention, and defend his territory - and if that's outside, he risks
catching some deadly viruses - aside from the normal bloody battles.

MaryL
March 15th 07, 11:35 AM
"Barbara" > wrote in message
.. .
>I know of some one who had a cat who was declawed, he climbed to the top of
>the Christmas tree.
>
> --
> Barb
> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:45:42 -0400, "Barbara" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Probably pretty good..
>>
>> ? A cat can climb a cat tree without claws? I had a declawed cat once.
>> He couldn't. He'd watch while my other cats would do it. I always felt
>> sad for him. I wasn't the one who had his fingers chopped off though.
>
>

That's not really climbing. Branches on a Christmas tree are so close
together that he could simply reach from one branch to another.

MaryL

Stick Waver
March 15th 07, 01:10 PM
wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:39:47 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote:
>
>
>>It still isn't in the same league as mutilation, which is what both
>>FGM and declawing are. And if Annoyed wasn't so ignorant about the
>>facts, as I purported, he would have realized this.
>
>
> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is. Your
> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation is duly
> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote, "it's
> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!

If you want to play semantics with the technical meaning of the word
circumcision, fine. But if given the choice which of the three you'd
rather have performed, guess which one is a walk in the park compared
to the other two?

Charlie Wilkes
March 15th 07, 11:30 PM
In article >,
says...
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" > wrote:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
> >> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is. Your
> >> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation is
> >duly
> >> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote, "it's
> >> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
> >
> >Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain difference
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims it does
> matter.
>
> >between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male compared
> >to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of toebones
> >from a cat.
>
> Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the wonderful cat
> we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front declaw
> victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would have
> them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the *pain* of
> one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of being
> militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male* humans
> (but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your case
> faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as well
> as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.

Tommy Loy, cabin boy...
The dirty little nipper!
He filled his ass
with broken glass
and circumcised the skipper.

William Graham
March 15th 07, 11:44 PM
"mskitty834" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> So why not give the cat a vasectomy and thereby preserve the horomonal
>> conditions bestowed by sweet Mother Nature?
>>
>> Charlie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Because he will still spray inside your house, scream for female
> attention, and defend his territory - and if that's outside, he risks
> catching some deadly viruses - aside from the normal bloody battles.
>
Not only that, but he will leave your house for weeks at a time, and one
day, within 5 or 6 years, he will leave and never come back. An unfixed male
cat is basically a wild cat, even though he was raised around human beings.
He has to find and stake out a new territory, and in a world crowded with
automobiles and teenagers armed with 22's and BB guns, he doesn't stand much
of a chance.......

James
March 15th 07, 11:52 PM
On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" > wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> >> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is. Your
> >> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation is
> >duly
> >> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote, "it's
> >> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>
> >Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain difference
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims it does
> matter.
>
> >between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male compared
> >to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of toebones
> >from a cat.
>
> Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the wonderful cat
> we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front declaw
> victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would have
> them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the *pain* of
> one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of being
> militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male* humans
> (but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your case
> faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as well
> as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>
> <Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than from
> a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
> routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance. It's
> not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
> --
>
> Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl

The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.

22brix
March 16th 07, 01:37 AM
"James" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> >> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is.
>> >> Your
>> >> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation
>> >> is
>> >duly
>> >> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote,
>> >> "it's
>> >> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>
>> >Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain difference
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims it
>> does
>> matter.
>>
>> >between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>> >compared
>> >to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>> >toebones
>> >from a cat.
>>
>> Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the wonderful
>> cat
>> we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front declaw
>> victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would have
>> them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the *pain*
>> of
>> one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>> being
>> militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>> humans
>> (but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>> case
>> faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>> well
>> as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>
>> <Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>> from
>> a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>> routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance. It's
>> not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>> athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>> --
>>
>> Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>
> The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
> much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
> and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
> on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>
>

It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.

bookie
March 16th 07, 05:52 PM
On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
> "James" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> >> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim is.
> >> >> Your
> >> >> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital mutilation
> >> >> is
> >> >duly
> >> >> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP wrote,
> >> >> "it's
> >> >> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>
> >> >Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain difference
>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims it
> >> does
> >> matter.
>
> >> >between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
> >> >compared
> >> >to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
> >> >toebones
> >> >from a cat.
>
> >> Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the wonderful
> >> cat
> >> we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front declaw
> >> victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would have
> >> them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the *pain*
> >> of
> >> one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
> >> being
> >> militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
> >> humans
> >> (but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
> >> case
> >> faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
> >> well
> >> as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>
> >> <Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
> >> from
> >> a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
> >> routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance. It's
> >> not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
> >> athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>
> > The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
> > much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
> > and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
> > on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>
> It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
> circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
> genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
> nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
broken glass

i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.

apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
without being in agony all the time.

btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?

bookie

William Graham
March 16th 07, 07:38 PM
"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
>> "James" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> >> Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim
>> >> >> is.
>> >> >> Your
>> >> >> ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital
>> >> >> mutilation
>> >> >> is
>> >> >duly
>> >> >> noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP
>> >> >> wrote,
>> >> >> "it's
>> >> >> only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>
>> >> >Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain
>> >> >difference
>>
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims
>> >> it
>> >> does
>> >> matter.
>>
>> >> >between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>> >> >compared
>> >> >to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>> >> >toebones
>> >> >from a cat.
>>
>> >> Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the
>> >> wonderful
>> >> cat
>> >> we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front
>> >> declaw
>> >> victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would
>> >> have
>> >> them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the
>> >> *pain*
>> >> of
>> >> one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>> >> being
>> >> militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>> >> humans
>> >> (but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>> >> case
>> >> faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>> >> well
>> >> as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>
>> >> <Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>> >> from
>> >> a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>> >> routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>> >> It's
>> >> not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>> >> athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>
>> > The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>> > much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>> > and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>> > on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>
>> It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>> circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>> genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>> nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
> is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
> by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
> cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
> broken glass
>
> i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
> they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
> think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
> normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
> things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
> ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
> must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.
>
> apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
> least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
> without being in agony all the time.
>
> btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
> is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
> male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>
> bookie
>
Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.

Stick Waver
March 16th 07, 08:11 PM
William Graham wrote:
> "bookie" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
>>
>>>"James" > wrote in message
>>>
oups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>
> wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim
>>>>>>>is.
>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital
>>>>>>>mutilation
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>duly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP
>>>>>>>wrote,
>>>>>>>"it's
>>>>>>>only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>>
>>>>>>Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain
>>>>>>difference
>>>
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims
>>>>>it
>>>>>does
>>>>>matter.
>>>
>>>>>>between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>>>>>>compared
>>>>>>to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>>>>>>toebones
>>>>>
>>>>>>from a cat.
>>>
>>>>>Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the
>>>>>wonderful
>>>>>cat
>>>>>we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front
>>>>>declaw
>>>>>victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would
>>>>>have
>>>>>them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the
>>>>>*pain*
>>>>>of
>>>>>one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>>>>>being
>>>>>militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>>>>>humans
>>>>>(but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>>>>>case
>>>>>faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>>>>>well
>>>>>as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>>
>>>>><Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>>>>>from
>>>>>a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>>>>>routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>>>>>It's
>>>>>not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>>>>>athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>>>>>--

>>>>>Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>>
>>>>The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>>>>much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>>>>and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>>>>on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>>
>>>It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>>>circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>>>genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>>>nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
>>is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
>>by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
>>cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
>>broken glass
>>
>>i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
>>they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
>>think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
>>normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
>>things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
>>ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
>>must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.
>>
>>apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
>>least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
>>without being in agony all the time.
>>
>>btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
>>is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
>>male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>>
>>bookie
>>
>
> Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
> excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
> thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.
>
>
It also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
the foreskin "in the way."

Nicolaas Hawkins
March 16th 07, 08:28 PM
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:11:20 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote
in >:

> William Graham wrote:
>> "bookie" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>>On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"James" > wrote in message
>>>>
oups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>
> wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim
>>>>>>>>is.
>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital
>>>>>>>>mutilation
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>duly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP
>>>>>>>>wrote,
>>>>>>>>"it's
>>>>>>>>only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain
>>>>>>>difference
>>>>
>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims
>>>>>>it
>>>>>>does
>>>>>>matter.
>>>>
>>>>>>>between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>>>>>>>compared
>>>>>>>to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>>>>>>>toebones
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>from a cat.
>>>>
>>>>>>Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the
>>>>>>wonderful
>>>>>>cat
>>>>>>we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front
>>>>>>declaw
>>>>>>victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the
>>>>>>*pain*
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>>>>>>being
>>>>>>militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>>>>>>humans
>>>>>>(but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>>>>>>case
>>>>>>faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>>>>>>well
>>>>>>as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>>>
>>>>>><Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>>>>>>from
>>>>>>a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>>>>>>routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>>>>>>It's
>>>>>>not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>>>>>>athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>>>>>>--

>>>>>>Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>>>
>>>>>The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>>>>>much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>>>>>and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>>>>>on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>>>
>>>>It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>>>>circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>>>>genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>>>>nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>>
>>>havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
>>>is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
>>>by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
>>>cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
>>>broken glass
>>>
>>>i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
>>>they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
>>>think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
>>>normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
>>>things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
>>>ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
>>>must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.
>>>
>>>apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
>>>least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
>>>without being in agony all the time.
>>>
>>>btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
>>>is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
>>>male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>>>
>>>bookie
>>>
>>
>> Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
>> excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
>> thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.
>>
> It also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
> the foreskin "in the way."

This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your circumcision
rants to alt.circumcision.

--
Regards,
Nicolaas.


.... When I step in the middle of things, I wipe my shoes before I leave.

Stick Waver
March 16th 07, 11:20 PM
Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:11:20 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote
> in >:
>
>
>>William Graham wrote:
>>
>>>"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"James" > wrote in message
>>>>>
oups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim
>>>>>>>>>is.
>>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>>ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital
>>>>>>>>>mutilation
>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>duly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP
>>>>>>>>>wrote,
>>>>>>>>>"it's
>>>>>>>>>only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain
>>>>>>>>difference
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims
>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>does
>>>>>>>matter.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>>>>>>>>compared
>>>>>>>>to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>>>>>>>>toebones
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>from a cat.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the
>>>>>>>wonderful
>>>>>>>cat
>>>>>>>we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front
>>>>>>>declaw
>>>>>>>victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would
>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the
>>>>>>>*pain*
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>>>>>>>humans
>>>>>>>(but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>>>>>>>case
>>>>>>>faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>>>>>>>well
>>>>>>>as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>>>>
>>>>>>><Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>>>>>>>routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>>>>>>>It's
>>>>>>>not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>>>>>>>athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>>>>
>>>>>>The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>>>>>>much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>>>>>>and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>>>>>>on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>>>>>circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>>>>>genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>>>>>nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>>>
>>>>havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
>>>>is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
>>>>by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
>>>>cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
>>>>broken glass
>>>>
>>>>i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
>>>>they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
>>>>think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
>>>>normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
>>>>things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
>>>>ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
>>>>must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.
>>>>
>>>>apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
>>>>least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
>>>>without being in agony all the time.
>>>>
>>>>btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
>>>>is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
>>>>male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>>>>
>>>>bookie
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
>>>excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
>>>thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.
>>>
>>
>>It also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>the foreskin "in the way."
>
>
> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your circumcision
> rants to alt.circumcision.
>
Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.

William Graham
March 16th 07, 11:46 PM
"Stick Waver" > wrote in message news:45fb2643$0$8949>>>It
also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>>the foreskin "in the way."
>>
>>
>> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your
>> circumcision
>> rants to alt.circumcision.
>>
> Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.

Well, my cats look better, and their tree climbing is more pleasurable with
claws to do it with.....

Is there an, "alt.circumcision"?

Nicolaas Hawkins
March 17th 07, 01:36 AM
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:20:32 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote
in >:

> Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:11:20 -0500, Stick Waver > wrote
>> in >:
>>
>>>William Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>>"bookie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 16 Mar, 01:37, "22brix" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"James" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
oups.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mar 15, 5:48 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:55:44 -0500, "Upscale" >
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Circumcision is mutilation regardless of which gender the victim
>>>>>>>>>>is.
>>>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>>>ignorance, bigotry and sexist apathy towards male genital
>>>>>>>>>>mutilation
>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>duly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>noted as well. If MGM is okay, why isn't FGM okay? As the OP
>>>>>>>>>>wrote,
>>>>>>>>>>"it's
>>>>>>>>>>only a piece of skin", right? WAKE UP!!! THEY'RE ALL INHUMANE!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Maybe so, but anyway you slice it, there's significant pain
>>>>>>>>>difference
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>Perhaps no "skin off your nose", but to unwilling mutilation victims
>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>does
>>>>>>>>matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>between removing an inch or so of skin in a few seconds from a male
>>>>>>>>>compared
>>>>>>>>>to the amount of time required to remove 10-18 nails and pieces of
>>>>>>>>>toebones
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>from a cat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Upscale, I am also against declawing. Some SOB mutilated the
>>>>>>>>wonderful
>>>>>>>>cat
>>>>>>>>we rescued from the local kill shelter - she was already a front
>>>>>>>>declaw
>>>>>>>>victim when we found her there. If she had all claws then she would
>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>them all today, three years after her adoption. I don't equate the
>>>>>>>>*pain*
>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>one mutilation to that of another, but I'm dismayed at the position of
>>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>>militant against declawing and condoning ritually mutilating *male*
>>>>>>>>humans
>>>>>>>>(but God forbid circumcision happens to a girl! The UN will be on your
>>>>>>>>case
>>>>>>>>faster than you can say "Oil for Food"). It's a human rights issue as
>>>>>>>>well
>>>>>>>>as an animal rights issue to stop the routine mutilations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>>>>>>>>routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>>>>>>>>It's
>>>>>>>>not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>>>>>>>>athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>>Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>>>>>>>much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>>>>>>>and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>>>>>>>on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>>>>>>circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>>>>>>genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>>>>>>nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
>>>>>is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
>>>>>by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
>>>>>cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
>>>>>broken glass
>>>>>
>>>>>i don't think anyone is saying the one thing is worse than the other,
>>>>>they are al pretty horrific and pointless in my view, the only thing I
>>>>>think is that the foreskin can be deemed somewhat less necessary to a
>>>>>normal enjoyment of life than all your fingers and toes intact. yes
>>>>>things can go wrong with male circumcision but that is rare, and the
>>>>>ongoing pain and suffering (both physical and mental and emotional)
>>>>>must be nothign compared to that suffered by a declawed cat.
>>>>>
>>>>>apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
>>>>>least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
>>>>>without being in agony all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>>btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
>>>>>is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
>>>>>male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>>>>>
>>>>>bookie
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
>>>>excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
>>>>thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>>the foreskin "in the way."
>>
>> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your circumcision
>> rants to alt.circumcision.
>>

> Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.

Asshole your little self, kid. I have been reading the thread. That's
how I know it's bull****. And, typically, you're full of it.

>>>>>>>><Sarcasm> Hey, a *female circumcision* has even less skin removed than
>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>a male - why not have the medical community suggest that procedure as
>>>>>>>>routine for newborn girls as well? It might gain wider acceptance.
>>>>>>>>It's
>>>>>>>>not *that bad* a procedure when looking at an old medical journal
>>>>>>>>athttp://www.noharmm.org/circumfemale.htm</Sarcasm>
>>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>>Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The thing with females is that it's done when they are young children
>>>>>>>much older than babies. They know they're going to get a razor cut
>>>>>>>and what is to be cut. That's mental plus physical pain. Male babies
>>>>>>>on the other hand never knew they had foreskins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's also done to young woman and is much more drastic than male
>>>>>>circumcision--among some cultures most if not all of the external female
>>>>>>genitalia is cut away, frequently without anesthetic and in totally
>>>>>>nonsterile conditions. It's pretty horrible.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>havign read a couple of accounts of female circumcision, 'non-sterile'
>>>>>is a bit of an understatement, how abuot in a mud hut, girl held down
>>>>>by 'loving' relatives, middle fo nowhere, more often than not the
>>>>>cutting tool used can be a an old razor blade or sharpened metal or
>>>>>broken glass
>>>>>
>>>>>apologies to all circumcised men who think have had a raw deal but at
>>>>>least you can walk around normally and use you fingers properly
>>>>>without being in agony all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>>btw circumcision outisde the jewish or muslim community (for men that
>>>>>is) is extrrenely rare in the UK but i understand it is done on most
>>>>>male babies in the states regardless of religion, is this true? why?
>>>>
>>>>Yes. Or, at least this was true in my generation. (I was born in 1935) The
>>>>excuse at least in my day, was prevention of disease. Apparently they
>>>>thought you could keep your penis clean more easily if circumcised.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>>the foreskin "in the way."

This is about de-clawing? Yeah, RIGHT. Twaddle!

--
Nicolaas

Nicolaas Hawkins
March 17th 07, 01:38 AM
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:01 -0700, William Graham >
wrote in >:

> "Stick Waver" > wrote in message news:45fb2643$0$8949>>>It
> also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>>>the foreskin "in the way."
>>>
>>>
>>> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your
>>> circumcision
>>> rants to alt.circumcision.
>>>
>> Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.
>
> Well, my cats look better, and their tree climbing is more pleasurable with
> claws to do it with.....
>
> Is there an, "alt.circumcision"?

It's filed under the 'biblical' system. Seek, and ye shall find.

--
Nicolaas

James
March 18th 07, 11:18 PM
On Mar 16, 8:38 pm, Nicolaas Hawkins > wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:01 -0700, William Graham >
> wrote in >:
>
> > "Stick Waver" > wrote in message news:45fb2643$0$8949>>>It
> > also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
> >>>>the foreskin "in the way."
>
> >>> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your
> >>> circumcision
> >>> rants to alt.circumcision.
>
> >> Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.
>
> > Well, my cats look better, and their tree climbing is more pleasurable with
> > claws to do it with.....
>
> > Is there an, "alt.circumcision"?
>
> It's filed under the 'biblical' system. Seek, and ye shall find.
>
> --
> Nicolaas

Now I want to know if cats have foreskins.

Nicolaas Hawkins
March 19th 07, 01:10 AM
On 18 Mar 2007 16:18:09 -0700, James > wrote in
ups.com>:

> On Mar 16, 8:38 pm, Nicolaas Hawkins > wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:46:01 -0700, William Graham >
>> wrote in >:
>>
>>> "Stick Waver" > wrote in message news:45fb2643$0$8949>>>It
>>> also looks better and men claim sex is more pleasureable without
>>>>>>the foreskin "in the way."
>>
>>>>> This forum is about cats, strangely enough. Kindly take your
>>>>> circumcision
>>>>> rants to alt.circumcision.
>>
>>>> Asshole, read the thread. It's about declawing.
>>
>>> Well, my cats look better, and their tree climbing is more pleasurable with
>>> claws to do it with.....
>>
>>> Is there an, "alt.circumcision"?
>>
>> It's filed under the 'biblical' system. Seek, and ye shall find.
>>
>> --
>> Nicolaas
>
> Now I want to know if cats have foreskins.

Do let us know what your research reveals. Enquiring minds and all that.

--
Nicolaas